From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 00:06:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 01:06:21 -0400 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> On Aug 1, 2007, at 12:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think > would be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad > CPU system (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this for > quite some time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based system. Those would be SM100s. Made by Ross, Cypress chipset, 40MHz, no L2 cache, and ungodly slow. A system with two SM51s will run rings around a system with two SM100s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 1 00:17:24 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:17:24 -0700 Subject: Fast MBus modules Message-ID: Oops- sent to the wrong list. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 1 00:36:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:36:21 -0700 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 1:06 AM -0400 8/1/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Aug 1, 2007, at 12:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think >>would be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad >>CPU system (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this for >>quite some time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based system. > > Those would be SM100s. Made by Ross, Cypress chipset, 40MHz, no >L2 cache, and ungodly slow. A system with two SM51s will run rings >around a system with two SM100s. Actually I was thinking of Sun's SM52, dual 50Mhz boards with I believe 1MB cache. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 00:44:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 01:44:01 -0400 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6D457DE1-B21D-40C7-B25F-A1C0046705F3@neurotica.com> On Aug 1, 2007, at 1:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think >>> would be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad >>> CPU system (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this >>> for quite some time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based system. >> >> Those would be SM100s. Made by Ross, Cypress chipset, 40MHz, no >> L2 cache, and ungodly slow. A system with two SM51s will run >> rings around a system with two SM100s. > > Actually I was thinking of Sun's SM52, dual 50Mhz boards with I > believe 1MB cache. Oh, THOSE...I thought they were only used in the SS1000? Or am I getting them mixed up with another module? The SM100 really is a piece of garbage, though. Sun knew (according to a former Sun employee) that they should never have sold them, but being able to say "we have a quad-processor machine" was worth quite a bit to them at the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 1 01:13:14 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 07:13:14 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230F5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Perhaps our friends at Bletchley Park might be interested ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sent: 31 July 2007 14:46 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK VCF? On 31/07/07, Simon Fryer wrote: > > I think there would be a lot of interest. The initial stumbling block > so far appears to be finding someone to organise it. Agreed - I am sure this has cropped up on the list before, too, with the same conclusion. Venus shouldn't be a problem; there are plenty of possibilities about, ranging from sports halls to places the size of the NEC; although you'd need big pockets for the latter.. Just pick a size and go from there.. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 01:29:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:29:44 -0400 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <6D457DE1-B21D-40C7-B25F-A1C0046705F3@neurotica.com> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> <6D457DE1-B21D-40C7-B25F-A1C0046705F3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B02858.8040208@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 1, 2007, at 1:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think would >>>> be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad CPU >>>> system (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this for quite >>>> some time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based system. >>> >>> Those would be SM100s. Made by Ross, Cypress chipset, 40MHz, no L2 >>> cache, and ungodly slow. A system with two SM51s will run rings >>> around a system with two SM100s. >> >> Actually I was thinking of Sun's SM52, dual 50Mhz boards with I >> believe 1MB cache. > > Oh, THOSE...I thought they were only used in the SS1000? Or am I > getting them mixed up with another module? They might have only been *sold* in the SS1000, but I've definitely run them in the SS20. I suspect the configuration would probably be called something similar to SS20/514. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 1 02:35:38 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:35:38 -0500 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B037CA.7050705@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:06 AM -0400 8/1/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Aug 1, 2007, at 12:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think would >>> be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad CPU system >>> (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this for quite some >>> time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based system. >> >> >> Those would be SM100s. Made by Ross, Cypress chipset, 40MHz, no L2 >> cache, and ungodly slow. A system with two SM51s will run rings >> around a system with two SM100s. > > > Actually I was thinking of Sun's SM52, dual 50Mhz boards with I believe > 1MB cache. With TI390 CPUs? I had an SS20 that came with a pair of them. It was stupid fast, but you could perc coffee over the fan vent. I might still have that thing, or at least the SM52s. You want 'em? Doc From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 1 06:17:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 06:17:25 -0500 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC In-Reply-To: <0JM200CZ16TWEQ70@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200708011020.l71AKr6Y011814@hosting.monisys.ca> > >Not all Northstar diskettes are HS. One of the models (Advantage?) > >isn't--and it's that format that the Microsolutions MatchPoint will > >read, not the others. It's been too long since I've seen the darned > >things... > > Error! Advanatge is the same format as the MDS [Aka Horizon) and does > both SD and DD formats. Least mine does. The Advantage is definately hard sectored (btw, I put the full technical manual online a while back - thick book!) I've never seen a N* that was not hard-sectored, however someone mentioned the Dimension which falls into that catagory (I've never seen one) and may be the one Chuck was thinking about. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 05:35:50 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 03:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PERQ T2 Message-ID: <858629.53554.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I've got a PERQ T2 which was working until fairly recently. It seems the boot track on the hard disk (Micropolis 1303) is damaged in some way so the PERQ wont boot. I have a floppy boot disk which is known to be good, but unfortunately the PERQ T2 doesnt want to boot from floppy. SHIFT-A doesnt work on the T2. Is there any way I can force the T2 to boot from floppy? Just a few other points, when switched on the HD LED remains on all the time. I'm assuming the drive is attempting to seek the boot track. Ultimately the PERQ times out with code 013 which means HD time out. Thanks Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Aug 1 06:00:09 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:00:09 +0100 Subject: working scale models (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070801110007.GA7951@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 02:36:42PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... A real IMSAI is what, 10.5" tall, 19" wide, and about 24"-36" > deep? That sounds difficult to reproduce at 1/12th scale, but it > might be possible to replicate an IMSAI front panel with fiber optics, > run them under the floor of the doll house to a hidden Z-80 board > (that could still be done with a lot of SMT to make it small). I bet someone has done something very similar for one of the larger model railway scales. The front panel lights will be easily doable. This time, look at the *smaller* model railway scales. N gauge (1:150-ish) and Z gauge (1:220) signalling equipment would be a good place to look. Their three inch wide signal lamps are comparable to 1/5 inch lamps in your scale. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 06:10:54 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 04:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <109345.86207.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'd be interested too. For venues, what kind of size place would be needed? I've vistited several fairly active shows, some of which could be called somewhat vintage - eg the RiscOS shows. These are often held in sports halls or similar. There is also the retro show North, which is more classic gaming consoles. (www.retronorth.co.uk) Some others in the past included the 'all formats computer fairs', which often combined commercial sellers/items for sale with stands from clubs. A bit like the VCF in Mountain View. Ian ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 1 10:06:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:06:52 -0700 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <46B02858.8040208@gmail.com> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> <6D457DE1-B21D-40C7-B25F-A1C0046705F3@neurotica.com> <46B02858.8040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:29 AM -0400 8/1/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On Aug 1, 2007, at 1:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>>>I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think >>>>>would be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad >>>>>CPU system (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this >>>>>for quite some time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based >>>>>system. >>>> >>>> Those would be SM100s. Made by Ross, Cypress chipset, 40MHz, >>>>no L2 cache, and ungodly slow. A system with two SM51s will run >>>>rings around a system with two SM100s. >>> >>>Actually I was thinking of Sun's SM52, dual 50Mhz boards with I >>>believe 1MB cache. >> >> Oh, THOSE...I thought they were only used in the SS1000? Or am I >>getting them mixed up with another module? > >They might have only been *sold* in the SS1000, but I've definitely >run them in the SS20. I suspect the configuration would probably be >called something similar to SS20/514. They were for the SS10 and SS20, I'm not sure they'd even fit in the SS1000. Each one filled a M-Bus slot, and the S-Bus slot directly next to it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 1 10:37:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 08:37:36 -0700 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC In-Reply-To: <0JM200CZ16TWEQ70@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JM200CZ16TWEQ70@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46B04650.12022.3E16AB10@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 15:44, Allison wrote: >> Error! Advanatge is the same format as the MDS [Aka Horizon) and does > both SD and DD formats. Least mine does. As I said, it's been a very long time. I recall perhaps about 10 years ago, getting some N* diskettes in that I could have sworn the Matchpoint supported and discovering to my surprise that it didn't. I rarely get out the PC-XT with that card now, as I've got better facilities to do the job, but I can double-check my Matchpoint documentation to see what they said exactly. The Matchpoint card would be simple to reverse-engineer; not nearly as involved as the Central Point DOB. I'm not sure if the MP drivers work on anything much faster than a PC-AT, however. To my knowledge, most were sold to handle Apple diskettes, rather than N* ones. The USPS purchased a bunch of them at one time. The card was discontinued officially sometime around 1989, but you could get one from MS as late as 1993 if you knew to ask for the person who was handling USPS requests. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 1 10:56:34 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:56:34 -0700 Subject: [offlist] Re: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <46B037CA.7050705@mdrconsult.com> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> <46B037CA.7050705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: At 2:35 AM -0500 8/1/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > With TI390 CPUs? I had an SS20 that came with a pair of >them. It was stupid fast, but you could perc coffee over the fan >vent. I might still have that thing, or at least the SM52s. You >want 'em? While they're something I've wanted for years, I have to admit that I have absolutely no use for them, and they would most likely be better off going to someone that would use them. I haven't powered on my SS20/712 in nearly 5 years. Now if OpenBSD supported multiple CPU's that would be a different matter. :^) Now the real question is which is worse, the heat from a SS20/514, or a SunBlade 1000! The SunBlade puts out so much heat I only really use it to low-level format HD's for my VMS box. :^( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 11:08:20 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micropolis 1303 Message-ID: <235918.89882.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Anyone with a Micropolis 1303 for sale/trade? I have one which is just not working correctly. The heads will not track so I'm guessing its a head crash. I tried some other MFM disks, but they dont seem to be the right type. Looked on ebay and saw some ridiculous pricing, so hopefully someone has a spare somewhere? In terms of trade, I have a large collection of PDP 11 spares (PSU's, bus cards, front panels, wiring, switches, etc). Also more recent stuff (Atari/Acorn) if interested. All the best Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 1 11:17:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:17:34 -0400 Subject: Needed: XMI DSSI interface Message-ID: <200708011217.34645.pat@computer-refuge.org> [Cross-posted from the rescue list] In the quest to get my new VAX 7640 up and doing something useful, I'm looking for an XMI DSSI card and cab kit for the system, so that I can have *some* physical media on the machine. I've got a bunch of random DEC stuff available for trade, including some XMI CI interfaces which I doubt I'll ever use (famous last words), QBUS stuff, Alpha stuff, etc. etc. Or, cash. I mostly want to avoid spending the $big_num that ebay sellers want for the stuff. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 11:21:11 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 17:21:11 +0100 Subject: working scale models (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <20070801110007.GA7951@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20070801110007.GA7951@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: heres a starter http://www.yadamnfool.com/pics/amiga/a2000.jpg Dave Caroline From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 11:39:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:39:40 -0400 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> <6D457DE1-B21D-40C7-B25F-A1C0046705F3@neurotica.com> <46B02858.8040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> Actually I was thinking of Sun's SM52, dual 50Mhz boards with I >>>> believe 1MB cache. >>> >>> Oh, THOSE...I thought they were only used in the SS1000? Or am >>> I getting them mixed up with another module? >> >> They might have only been *sold* in the SS1000, but I've >> definitely run them in the SS20. I suspect the configuration >> would probably be called something similar to SS20/514. > > They were for the SS10 and SS20, I'm not sure they'd even fit in > the SS1000. Each one filled a M-Bus slot, and the S-Bus slot > directly next to it. Wow, that's a new one on me. I've used more Sun hardware than most (not trying to sound like a weenie), and have never seen one of those, at least not that I can recall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From g-wright at att.net Wed Aug 1 13:38:35 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:38:35 +0000 Subject: Next Cube Parts needed Message-ID: <080120071838.3395.46B0D32A000F054500000D4321603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I'm trying to get a MONO Cube I have here back to a complete box. Missing is the - Floppy Drive 2.88 Sony and Bezel - mounting Bracket for the Drives ??? The large piece above the Power Supply is there. I would guess it had something to hold the 3 1/2 drives. - no Optical drive or cover. Not Sure it had one ?? - no expansion slot covers. Rear cover is there. - mouse is missing This is a 68040 25 built is 1991 Looking into the 2.88 floppy it looks like there was no standard for the connection on the different makes. So either I have to use a sony or make a adapter Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 1 15:42:55 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 13:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xerox 820-II boot disk Message-ID: I've unearthed a Xerox 820-II, the original boot disk to which has gone bad. Is there someone here who can create a copy of the original 8" boot disk and whatever else was shipped with the Xerox 820-II? I have blanks, but no means to write to them. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 1 17:13:45 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 17:13:45 -0500 Subject: xerox 820-II boot disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200708012117.l71LHETS019645@hosting.monisys.ca> > I've unearthed a Xerox 820-II, the original boot disk to which has gone > bad. Is there someone here who can create a copy of the original 8" boot > disk and whatever else was shipped with the Xerox 820-II? I have blanks, > but no means to write to them. I have the 820-II boot disk up on my site in ImageDisk format. I have directions on my site to make an adapter which should let you connect one of the 8" drives to a 5.25" cable on a PC (don't bother with the 820-II harness - just open up the disk box and connect directly to the 50-pin connector on one of the drives). Another option might be to write the boot disk to a 5.25" HD diskette, then connect that in place of the A: drive (again you will need an adapter), boot from it and copy to an 8" disk in the B: drive. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 1 15:57:00 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:57:00 +0200 Subject: [offlist] Re: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> <46B037CA.7050705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20070801225700.3f7fddb3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:56:34 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I haven't powered on my SS20/712 in nearly 5 years. Now if OpenBSD > supported multiple CPU's that would be a different matter. :^) NetBSD supports SMP on sparc for years. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 1 17:49:55 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:49:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <215550.20332.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I'd be up for one. I could bring my (broken) A600 and show off it's internals, and bring my laptop to show off an emulated Amiga along with the (compiled AMOS) programs I have written. Perhaps by then I will have a few demo's too (been watching loads of demo's by Spaceballs, Atomic Team and Kefrens lately). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mark Wickens wrote: Just a curious question for the folks in the UK... Has there ever been a VCF UK? Do you think there would be much interest in one? Mark. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 17:58:22 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:58:22 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk><2f806cd70707310646n2c2c543bn17bc04f9b0fa97d1@mail.gmail.com> <11c909eb0707311240k179e8316r29fe63a6e67534df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005a01c7d48f$75db8100$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Bletchley Park? That was my first thought too, but I suspect they've already got *FAR* too much on their collective plates.... TTFN - Pete. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 17:46:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:46:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQ T2 In-Reply-To: <858629.53554.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from "silvercreekvalley" at Aug 1, 7 03:35:50 am Message-ID: [For the benefit of others who may be wondering 'how the heck does he know that', I've received (and answered) a couple of private e-mails about this particlaur PERQ. Since it's been taken to the classiccmp list now, I'll reply here] > > I've got a PERQ T2 which was working until > fairly recently. It seems the boot track on the > hard disk (Micropolis 1303) is damaged in some > way so the PERQ wont boot. > > I have a floppy boot disk which is known to be good, > but unfortunately the PERQ T2 doesnt want to boot > from floppy. SHIFT-A doesnt work on the T2. Shfit-A (or any other key combination) does exactly the same thing to the ROM bootstrap on a T2 as on every other classic-PERQ. Namely nothing. >From what I can see from the ROM source listings (jsut ask me if you want commented sources to the T1 or T2/T4 bootstraps), the sequence is : 1) CPU initial diagnostics. If these fail, the machine goes into an endless loop, the DDS will be <10 2) Attempt to boot from the PERQlink (16 bit parallel port on the OIO card), floppy drive nand then hard disk in that order. The machine conventionally loads VFY and SYSB from the appropriate disk. VFY is more extensive system tests (including main memory), SYSB is the bootstrap. Now, IMHO the POS SYSB is broken-as-designed because, in the abscence of a keypress, it tries to load the first interpretter microcode from the hard disk (even if SYSB iteself was loaded from the flopyp drive). IIRC the PNX boot does things properly and loads the rest of the system from the decvice that it was loaded from. > > Is there any way I can force the T2 to boot from > floppy? On a correctly working PERQ, putting a disk in the floppy drive and pressing the reset button will at least load the initial microcode from the floppy. Holding down shift-A will get the rest of POS to load from the floppy too. Yes, that does work on a T2. Nwo, I seem to rememebr that a T2 has to have a hard disk that will go ready -- that is assert the READY/ signal on the control connector, before it'll try to boot from floppy. The drive doesn't need to contain any valid data, it doesn't even need to be formatted. I think a T1 will boot from floppy even if the hard disk is totally dead. One thing worreis me a lot about what you've told me, or rather what you've not said. You assume that the boot track is corrupted, with AFAIK no real evidence for this. You will find I don't take kindly to people who make random assumptions, and nor for that matter do PERQs. Also, you don't know if the Z80 system is working. If it isn't, the machine cna't boot from floppy, since the FDC is connected to the Z80 I/O procesor. So for that matter is the SIO that takes in data from the keyboard, so if the Z80 system is malfunctioning, it'll not read the keyboard either. There are several things I would do. Firstly, I'd check signals at the hard disk conntectors (standard ST412 inteface in a T2). Is said drive going ready? Then, if you have, or can borrow, a logic analyser, ask me for the boot listhing. Connect said analyser to the mcirocode address lines (on the lowermost test connector at the front of the CPU board). We can then see if it's trying to boot from floppy, if it's trying to boot from the hard disk, or what. > > Just a few other points, when switched on the HD > LED remains on all the time. I'm assuming the I think that's right. The drive is selected all the time (unless you have a second drive installed), so the LED is on. Actually, the drive is squirint out the bitstream of the current track, but the machine might well be ignoring it :-) > drive is attempting to seek the boot track. Ultimately > the PERQ times out with code 013 which means HD > time out. It seems to me an more a hardware failure of the hard drive (as opposed to a corruption/checksum error) One question. IIRC you told me this is a Micropolis 1300-series drive. Those are notorious for a decayed rubbre bumper inside the HDA which means the heads don't load, the drive doesn't find track 0, and then fualts. IIRC, the drvie spins down when this happens. Do you know if your drive keeps on spinning? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 17:22:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:22:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 31, 7 04:02:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 31 Jul 2007 at 21:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Form the PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef... > > > > 40 : +12V DC > > That's really odd. By the time the PS/2 was around, every 3.5" drive > that I can think of in current production at the time used +5 only. I've not actually verified that voltage is present (I don't own any PS/2 stuff), nor have I checked it's sued on the floppy drive (I do have one of the drives somewhere, I think). I was given the Hardware Interface Techref by a friend who had no further use for it, and who knows I collect techncial manauls. As is well-knwon, this manual doesn't contain schematics, or ROM source listings, or anything that makes the old IBM PC family TechRefs really interesting, but of course I thanked said friend for the manual and added to the shelf. The pinout I typed in last night was from a section on the floppy drive/controller subsystem. It's not Model 25 (or any other Model) specific. It's quite possible some machines don't provide +12V there, if none of the supported options for that connector would have needed it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 17:18:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:18:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <11641C11-9309-4644-BBC6-21E580D7D661@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 31, 7 06:53:32 pm Message-ID: > > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job > > market, > > unfortunately. > > That's absolutely correct, because most HR drones don't actually > look for people who know anything about computers. If Joe wants to > learn something about computers, as opposed to learning only what's > guaranteed to get him a job in a suitly company, then I very strongly > recommend that he pursue the path that he discussed above. The problem comes from the fact that there are only a finite number of seconds in a day :-). If you're not careful you can end up in my position, knwoing a bit about things that nobody seems to want, but not having the right buzzwords on your resume to actually get a job. > > Joe...As for your not being hopeful about building a TTL-based > computer from scratch...The knowledge required to do it is readily > available. If you REALLY want to do it, you can. Your father's I will second that. I am living (?) proof that it's possible to understand this stuff. It didn't take me _that_ long either. > assertion that he couldn't do it after six years of college is really > irrelevant here...not many college EE programs teach anything about > low-level computer architecture, and sadly, even fewer CS programs > do. Learn about boolean algebra, learn about Karnaugh maps and other > minimization techniques, learn about combinatorial and sequential And learn to do it 'by hand', not just using CAD tools. The latter are undoubtedly very useful, but knowing how to do things by hand will let you know when said CAD systems have made a right mess of your design. > logic...not only will you be able to design and build a TTL-based > computer, but you'll end up knowing more about *computers* (as > opposed to "how to install Microsoft products on PCs") than most > anyone churned out by today's colleges. It's a great pity the latter is all most people care about. It is, perhaps, a little worrying that I am classed as computer-illiterate.... [I choose not to use Microsoft products, or much commercial software at all for that matter, for what I consider to be good reasons _for my own situation_. Yes I could learn how to install and use such programs, probably in a couple of afternoons. And I'd like to see any of the so-called PC experts understand a microcode source listing in the same length of time :-)] > > Further (also directed at Joe)...As you already very obviously > know, it's actually possible for one to learn something without it > being spoon-fed in a school. Very much so! Now, how do you convince droids of that? Both the sort that try to enforce bogus safety regulations ('No, we can't sell you that spare part, you're not trained to fit it' when actually I could _make_ said part in an hour or so...) and those that work in HR departments 'No, Dr Duell, you don't have the right qualfiications for this job' meaning I don't have some bit of paper saying I know how to turn on a PC, even though I routinely design such things...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 17:52:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:52:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Micropolis 1303 In-Reply-To: <235918.89882.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from "silvercreekvalley" at Aug 1, 7 09:08:20 am Message-ID: > > Anyone with a Micropolis 1303 for sale/trade? Why do you need that particular drive? If it's for your PERQ, then any ST412-interfaced drive will work. The Vertex V150 was commonly used in US PERQs, I'ev heard of Maxtor XT1140s working, and so on. > > I have one which is just not working correctly. The > heads will not track so I'm guessing its a head > crash. I'd be more supsicious of that well-known rubber bumper... > > I tried some other MFM disks, but they dont seem to > be the right type. How do you know, what have you tried to do? The PERQ low-level format is strange (to the extend to havin user data words -- actually filesystem pointes for POS -- in the sector headers) But any drive should go ready, and that would be enough for you to get the machine to boot from floppy if everything else is working. (It would be ridiculous to have to have a working, formatted, hard disk to boot from floppy, how would you ever load the formatter?) I'll assume you set the drive select links correctly :-) -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 18:48:59 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 00:48:59 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? References: <006101c7d3c9$f295f6b0$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <005f01c7d496$88e12d70$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....you can't just make an event an call it a Vintage Computer >Festival. That is a trademark, etc. belonging to Sellam.... Unless specifically registered internationally, trademarks only apply to the territory in which they were registered. So.... Besides, I seriously doubt you would be allowed to trademark a phrase like "Vintage Computer Festival" in the UK/EU. TTFN - Pete. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Aug 1 18:56:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:56:33 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46ADE12E.32714.34BBA23E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46ADD7E6.31924.349761C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <46AE3D1A.7020204@oldskool.org> <46ADE12E.32714.34BBA23E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46B11DB1.9000102@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jul 2007 at 14:33, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I've never heard of this. Are you talking about monitoring a bit in >> the 8253? > > Bit 4, port 61h. You can use a simple toggle test to see if it's > there, but on just about every system I've ever seen, it is. One of > the holdovers from the PC-AT architecture. I was confused because I always thought this was the speaker read gate. It seems we are both right (the AT and later works as you describe; the PC/XT bits in that location are a speaker read latch). Here is some information paraphrased from the PC Timing FAQ: Bit 4 of Port B at I/O address 61 hex on an AT and later machine is a read-only bit carrying a signal called Refresh Detect. This signal comes from a 'T' (toggle) flip-flop which is clocked by the refresh trigger signal, which comes from CTC channel one. Assuming that the RAM refresh rate has not been changed, this bit will toggle (change from 0 to 1 or from 1 to 0) once every 15.0857 microseconds (the exact value is 216/14.31818), and Port B can be polled in a loop to implement a delay of any length. For short delays, with interrupts locked out, this gives an accurate and very convenient relative delay mechanism. However, for long delays, it would be naughty to leave interrupts locked out for the entire delay period, and interrupts will cause gaps in the polling process, slightly lengthening the delay (it will wait longer than expected). There are several caveats. This method will not work on PCs and XTs. Also it will not work in an environment where Port B is emulated (for example, under OS/2 and probably any other virtual DOS machine). If the DRAM refresh period has been changed, the timing will be changed proportionately. Finally, Microchannel PS/2 architecture may not emulate this bit properly due to the level triggering they use. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 18:57:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 00:57:53 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com><2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....I would very much like to learn machine code. I figure that >>when I start college interviews in a year going toward something >>in the technology field.... > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job >market, unfortunately. As an assembly language programmer of some 29 years experience (not to mention some 31 years experience of electronics....I started young) I agree with that in spades! The last time I had a job as an assembly language programmer was 16 years ago, and even then those types of jobs were damn thin on the ground (now they're non-existant) - since every idiot these days seems to think "C" is the way to go....which it isn't.... :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 19:08:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 01:08:31 +0100 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys References: <46AEC101.4040107@brutman.com> Message-ID: <007701c7d499$42de53e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I don't have control over the code - it's probably burned >into this variant of the MCS-51.... That's pretty much a given, the 8051 family came with internal ROM (the 8031 family were pretty much 8051s without the internal ROM). >....Even if I have the bps rate wrong, I should still some >garbage flowing across serial interface. I wouldn't make that assumption so quickly....perhaps you have to send some sort of initialisation string to the unit before it'll send any output? TTFN - Pete. From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 1 19:11:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:11:00 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <200708020011.l720BvSa004534@keith.ezwind.net> That isn't the point, Pete. The point is: everyone knows the VCF is Sellam's thing and it would be really lame for someone else to make an event and call it a VCF. It would also just be dumb even if it weren't unethical: Sellam (and me and Hans and Pat) have done around 20 VCFs so far and we learned a LOT from the experience, so whoever is serious about making a new VCF would be wise to work with Sellam's organization, not around or against it. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 19:32:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:32:08 -0400 Subject: [offlist] Re: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> <335633BE-A901-480D-A7B9-B8500C4D9927@neurotica.com> <46B037CA.7050705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46B12608.7080203@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:35 AM -0500 8/1/07, Doc Shipley wrote: >> With TI390 CPUs? I had an SS20 that came with a pair of >> them. It was stupid fast, but you could perc coffee over the fan >> vent. I might still have that thing, or at least the SM52s. You want >> 'em? > > While they're something I've wanted for years, I have to admit that I > have absolutely no use for them, and they would most likely be better > off going to someone that would use them. I haven't powered on my > SS20/712 in nearly 5 years. Now if OpenBSD supported multiple CPU's > that would be a different matter. :^) > > Now the real question is which is worse, the heat from a SS20/514, or a > SunBlade 1000! The SunBlade puts out so much heat I only really use it > to low-level format HD's for my VMS box. :^( Why is it so bad? My quad-proc 1.4GHz POWER4+ doesn't put out that much heat. Not even close. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 1 19:32:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:32:52 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <005a01c7d48f$75db8100$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk><2f806cd70707310646n2c2c543bn17bc04f9b0fa97d1@mail.gmail.com> <11c909eb0707311240k179e8316r29fe63a6e67534df@mail.gmail.com> <005a01c7d48f$75db8100$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46B12634.5030607@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Bletchley Park? > > That was my first thought too, but I suspect they've already got *FAR* > too much on their collective plates.... *ducks in for a sec* Yep, lots going on in the near future! I've talked with Sellam in the past about this; it's a definite possibility, but a good couple of years away as we need to really find our feet with the new museum first and get things settled. We'd have to rely on the rest of the Park for exhibition space initially too, which adds a bit of extra complexity (although I suspect not a big deal - since the change in management things are a lot more positive on site). Longer term there's scope for adding some sort of large exhibition space to our building, but that won't happen any time soon! As the spiritual home of UK computing though it always seems a sensible location to me - possibly doing alternate years with an event somewhere up north though so that it reaches more people. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 19:35:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:35:42 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com><2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:57 PM, Ensor wrote: > > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job > >market, unfortunately. > > As an assembly language programmer of some 29 years experience (not > to mention some 31 years experience of electronics....I started > young) I agree with that in spades! > > The last time I had a job as an assembly language programmer was 16 > years ago, and even then those types of jobs were damn thin on the > ground (now they're non-existant) Guess I'd better quit my job, then! If you want to work in a world where assembly language programming and optimizing for every single byte of code or memory utilization still counts, get into the embedded systems world. A lot of (clueless) companies want their embedded code written in Java or C++ or such foolishness, but really, if they're really that stupid, you don't want to work for them anyway. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 1 19:39:53 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:39:53 -0400 Subject: "Whimper" newsletter Message-ID: All: Does anyone know if scans of the Tandy newsletter ?The Whimper? exists on-line? I did some Googling tonight and came up mostly with stuff on Jessica Tandy whimpering :-) I?ve been told these newsletters had some good T2k info in them but I don?t see them on-line anywhere. Specifically, I?m fishing for information on getting MFM hard drives working on Tandy 2000 machines. I have two machines with to seemingly bad Tandon TM502 drives. I saw another thread from last month that complained about the poor quality of the Tandon drives, so it?s probably bad drives. I have an ST225 drive that I want to run externally as a test but I haven?t been able to locate a manual on the T2k HD controller nor the external drive (25-1025 I think). I don?t want to connect it blindly before I?m confident the controller is setup properly. Irrational fear maybe but I want to proceed methodically. Any info appreciated. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 1 19:50:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 17:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com><2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > A lot of (clueless) companies want their embedded code written in > Java or C++ or such foolishness, but really, if they're really that > stupid, you don't want to work for them anyway. Got any good stories? I have one about a company that wanted a Z-machine to run on cell phones. At the time it seemed feasable, but then they started doing things like not paying the bills. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 1 19:51:22 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070802005122.C1BAB4F843@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Ensor > > The last time I had a job as an assembly language programmer was 16 years > ago, and even then those types of jobs were damn thin on the ground (now > they're non-existant) - since every idiot these days seems to think "C" is > the way to go....which it isn't.... :-( > What is wrong with C?! :( Yes it is not assembly, but it is also much closer to the hardware then most of the other structured programming languages out there! Cheers, Bryan From warren at databasics.us Wed Aug 1 19:55:09 2007 From: warren at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:55:09 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708020011.l720BvSa004534@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200708020011.l720BvSa004534@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1186016110.29721.9.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 20:11 -0400, Evan wrote: > That isn't the point, Pete. > The point is: everyone knows the VCF is Sellam's thing > and it would be really lame for someone else to make > an event and call it a VCF. Indeed. > It would also just be dumb even if it weren't unethical: > Sellam (and me and Hans and Pat) have done around 20 VCFs so > far and we learned a LOT from the experience, so whoever is > serious about making a new VCF would be wise to work with > Sellam's organization, not around or against it. I have put on a large computer show, albeit not with the "vintage" aspect playing the major role, several times. Once as the organizer of a hobbyist show, and about a dozen times as a representative of a displaying company in a professional show. It's lots of work. And, if we ignore the whole trans-Atlantic issue, I'd be happy to put on another one for a good cause. However, I have had dealings with Sellam, and I have only found a couple of people in my entire life who are as personally abusive. I would certainly NEVER get involved in something as complex and long-lasting as a computer show with him, and I suspect others know him even better than I. This might be a factor in nobody else wanting to put on a UK show. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe warren at databasics.us From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 1 20:13:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:13:00 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <200708020113.l721DLhR007432@keith.ezwind.net> Rubbish! Hans and Pat and I all do just fine. For every person who dislikes Sellam's style, you will find many more who love that crazy SOB. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 1 20:35:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:35:40 -0500 Subject: UK VCF? References: <200708020011.l720BvSa004534@keith.ezwind.net> <1186016110.29721.9.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <000a01c7d4a5$6fadec30$6600a8c0@JWEST> Warren wrote.... [...snip...] > However, I have had dealings with Sellam, and I > have only found a couple of people in my entire life who are Personal attacks are completely unacceptable. What were you thinking? This is a list for discussion of classic computing and related information. It is not a forum to talk about what you dislike about an individual on the list. Consider this a warning.... Jay From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 20:50:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 02:50:14 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? References: Message-ID: <00da01c7d4a7$7929fbd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > That isn't the point, Pete. The point is: everyone knows the >VCF is Sellam's thing and it would be really lame for someone >else to make an event and call it a VCF.... I wasn't suggesting otherwise....I was simply pointing out that trademarks do not apply worldwide unless specifically registered as such (and even then there are difficulties). Why so defensive? TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 1 21:03:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:03:30 -0700 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46B11DB1.9000102@oldskool.org> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46ADE12E.32714.34BBA23E@cclist.sydex.com>, <46B11DB1.9000102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46B0D902.326.4053ABCD@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2007 at 18:56, Jim Leonard wrote: > Bit 4 of Port B at I/O address 61 hex on an AT and later machine is a > read-only bit carrying a signal called Refresh Detect. This signal > comes from a 'T' (toggle) flip-flop which is clocked by the refresh > trigger signal, which comes from CTC channel one. Assuming that the > RAM refresh rate has not been changed, this bit will toggle (change > from 0 to 1 or from 1 to 0) once every 15.0857 microseconds (the exact > value is 216/14.31818), and Port B can be polled in a loop to > implement a delay of any length. For short delays, with interrupts > locked out, this gives an accurate and very convenient relative delay > mechanism. However, for long delays, it would be naughty to leave > interrupts locked out for the entire delay period, and interrupts will > cause gaps in the polling process, slightly lengthening the delay (it > will wait longer than expected). I believe I mentioned that it wasn't present on the PC-XT and that it was AT-and later. In any case, it's easy--a simple 65K loop checking this bit for toggling will root out the aberrent machines. Fortunately for everyone, these are mostly the slower (x88/86/186) systems that are very amenable to a simple counted CPU loop. When I do my delay, I wait for the bit to flip once, then again, then again. Simple--even my old NT and 98 diskette device drivers worked with it. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Wed Aug 1 21:12:58 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:12:58 -0800 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070801181046.05051f58@pop.1and1.com> At 04:35 PM 8/1/2007, you wrote: >On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:57 PM, Ensor wrote: >> > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job >> >market, unfortunately. >> >>As an assembly language programmer of some 29 years experience (not >>to mention some 31 years experience of electronics....I started >>young) I agree with that in spades! >> >>The last time I had a job as an assembly language programmer was 16 >>years ago, and even then those types of jobs were damn thin on the >>ground (now they're non-existant) > > Guess I'd better quit my job, then! > > If you want to work in a world where assembly language programming >and optimizing for every single byte of code or memory utilization >still counts, get into the embedded systems world. > > A lot of (clueless) companies want their embedded code written in >Java or C++ or such foolishness, but really, if they're really that >stupid, you don't want to work for them anyway. Building and programming the Altair 8800, Altair 680, Kenbak, etc has done nothing but strengthen the skills I use at work too. I program AVR microcontrollers in both C and assembly. No matter what language, toggling in your code teaches (or scares) you to write efficient code. : ) Grant From grant at stockly.com Wed Aug 1 21:14:40 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:14:40 -0800 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070801181337.05031fa0@pop.1and1.com> At 04:50 PM 8/1/2007, you wrote: >On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > A lot of (clueless) companies want their embedded code written in > > Java or C++ or such foolishness, but really, if they're really that > > stupid, you don't want to work for them anyway. > >Got any good stories? I have one about a company that wanted a Z-machine >to run on cell phones. At the time it seemed feasable, but then they >started doing things like not paying the bills. I once replaced a 386 PC/104 SBC running Windows 3.1/VB4 with a $4 AVR... Grant From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 1 21:35:32 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:35:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186016110.29721.9.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <20070802023532.26C724F7EB@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Warren Wolfe > > one for a good cause. However, I have had dealings with Sellam, and I > have only found a couple of people in my entire life who are as > personally abusive. I would certainly NEVER get involved in something > as complex and long-lasting as a computer show with him, and I suspect > others know him even better than I. This might be a factor in nobody > else wanting to put on a UK show. What is your problem? Where do you even begin in saying he is abusive?! I have known him since VCF East 1.0 (2001) and I have never found him in any way abusive. He may seem at times to go off on a rant about what someone says but there is always a good reason behind it. He is *very* passionate about vintage computers, so much that it is *all* he does. I really do not get what some people here have against him... I also do not want to belittle anybody else - everybody here is doing their own part in contributing to the preservation of all that is vintage computers. I just do not understand why some people have to take pot shots whenever his name or what he specifically does is mentioned. *sigh* Cheers, Bryan From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 21:36:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 03:36:45 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com><2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com><200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net><006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <00e901c7d4ad$f9404d00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > If you want to work in a world where assembly language >programming and optimizing for every single byte of code >or memory utilization still counts, get into the embedded >systems world. Errm, that's the world I got OUT of in 1991 when the company I was then working for was taken over and shut down. Sadly, since then, the only embedded systems jobs I've seen advertised in the UK have been from companies like Motorola and require C/C++ experience (and as you mention, Java!). Not to mention they'd require me to move halfway across the country to areas I wouldn't want to live in (due to the cost of living down there). > A lot of (clueless) companies want their embedded code written >in Java or C++ or such foolishness, but really, if they're really >that stupid, you don't want to work for them anyway. Amen to that. Talking of stupidity, the company that took us over did so, at least in part, because our products were far more technically advanced than theirs (we designed our new products from scratch, they just regurgitated the same (by then) 10 year old design ad nauseum with minor tweaks). They wanted our design team....what they actually got was our technical director. Those of us who'd actually done the design work were sacked shortly after the production department (needless to say, the sales department were the first up against the wall). Spurred on by writing this message I went and had a look at said company's website, alas it appears *NOTHING* has changed! They're still selling their original, now 27(!) year old, design in a more contemporary housing with updated software. Not to mention that at least 2 of their other products (including their "most popular" terminal) are the ones I worked on 16 years ago (although again with upgraded housings and software)....well, at least I did something right, once.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 22:27:30 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 04:27:30 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: Message-ID: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > What is wrong with C?! :( Don't get me started.... ;-) > Yes it is not assembly, but it is also much closer to the >hardware then most of the other structured programming languages >out there! I've always regarded "C" as more of a "high level macro assembler", I personally don't regard it as a high level language as such - sort of a halfway house. Now, if you understand how C "works" (read K&R a few times as a start) and the intimate details of your target hardware then you can do a passable job. The problem is, most programmers nowadays simply don't have that level of knowledge, which inevitably leads to large, slow, buggy firmware which is nigh on impossible to fully debug. And then there's the issue of readibility. I don't care what anyone says, I find assembly language listings VASTLY easier to understand than someone elses' "C" code no matter how well commented/documented (even when I've never encountered that particular processor before). I'll give you a personal example. I was once tasked with converting a real time OS from Z8 assembly language (yes, Z8) to V50 (x86) assembly language; we're talking a lot of code here, the assembled code filled almost an entire 32K EPROM. Took me about three and a half weeks, at the end of which I had a well structured, fully documented and FULLY DEBUGGED (I took a LOT of pride in never releasing code which was less than 100%) product which was cleared for production. Unknown to me at the time, initially at least, my boss also tasked our "C" programmer to do the same job. He did the conversion in about two weeks....and then spent the next TWO MONTHS trying (and failing) to track down the bugs in his code, about a third of which were caused by compiler bugs rather than something he'd done wrong. I was eventually brought in to help him, at which point I learnt rather a lot about how bloated and inefficient the output from "C" compilers can be. Needless to say, it was impossible for us to fully debug his code (or fit it into a 32K EPROM for that matter) and so it was dropped in favour of mine. "C" certainly has it's uses (I'm sure), but in my opinion, embedded systems/device drivers isn't one of them.... TTFN - Pete. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 22:32:41 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:32:41 -0700 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC In-Reply-To: <46B04650.12022.3E16AB10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi There is a fellow named Andrew Lynch on the Vintage Computer Forum that has a setup to read N* hard disk. Check with him. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Aug 1 22:40:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 04:40:13 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com><2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com><200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net><006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <010501c7d4b6$d6070870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > No matter what language, toggling in your code teaches (or >scares) you to write efficient code. : ) LOL, I used to seriously mess with my boss' head when dubugging code. I used to patch my code, in hex, in an EPROM emulator (a "Softy S3") as it was quicker than editing the source on my PC, assembling it and then downloading it the the emulator.... He just couldn't get his head around how I could "assemble" code in my head, even when I explained to him how easy it was when you understood how the opcodes were formed (doesn't work for all processors mind). TTFN - Pete. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 22:48:35 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:48:35 -0700 Subject: "Whimper" newsletter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Richard A. Cini" > >All: > > Does anyone know if scans of the Tandy newsletter ?The Whimper? exists >on-line? I did some Googling tonight and came up mostly with stuff on >Jessica Tandy whimpering :-) I?ve been told these newsletters had some good >T2k info in them but I don?t see them on-line anywhere. > > Specifically, I?m fishing for information on getting MFM hard drives >working on Tandy 2000 machines. I have two machines with to seemingly bad >Tandon TM502 drives. I saw another thread from last month that complained >about the poor quality of the Tandon drives, so it?s probably bad drives. I >have an ST225 drive that I want to run externally as a test but I haven?t >been able to locate a manual on the T2k HD controller nor the external >drive >(25-1025 I think). I don?t want to connect it blindly before I?m confident >the controller is setup properly. Irrational fear maybe but I want to >proceed methodically. > > Any info appreciated. Thanks. > Hi Is this the 5Meg drive? I have a drive I removed from one of the RS disk drive boxes. I don't recall the Tandom number but it may still be good. I needed a supply and a controller similar to the WD1000. This was just what I needed. In any case, what ever you use, you have to make sure that the step rate is compatible. The 225 was intended to run with auto stepping. It might not work well with other step rates. This often requires some software modification or hopefully a table data change. I do believe that all the RS HD controllers were WD1000 compatible. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 22:56:11 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:56:11 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: >From: "Ensor" > >Hi, > > > What is wrong with C?! :( > >Don't get me started.... ;-) > > > Yes it is not assembly, but it is also much closer to the > >hardware then most of the other structured programming languages > >out there! > >I've always regarded "C" as more of a "high level macro assembler", I >personally don't regard it as a high level language as such - sort of a >halfway house. > ----snip--- Hi I'm not sure why you'd say that. It is a simple programming language but is quite remote from most any assembly language I've worked with. The only higher level languages that I've worked with that I could say were close to assembly were Forth and LISP. That is only because there were machines made that were dedicated to that particular lanuage. C doesn't fit well onto any of the processors that I've seen lately. It is always sub-optimal. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 22:59:59 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:59:59 -0500 Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707052203y3478ab66mf4c3f62b8f60dd67@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707052203y3478ab66mf4c3f62b8f60dd67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708012059v50d2fa43if0f3a51f4d4af02b@mail.gmail.com> Anyone want this thing? It's seriously yellowed and the monitor won't power up. Not the focus of my collection but I know some folks out there collect these. Will trade for pretty much anything, or just give away if that fails. I'd rather not ship it but will give it a go if we can work it out. I'm near Chicago, IL. -j On 7/6/07, Jason T wrote: > I just collected a Victor machine which I believe to be the 9000 aka > Sirius 1, although it does not have a model # anywhere I can find. > The fans and drive powers up, but the display does not. It appears to > get its power via the 9-pin signal cable. Can anyone confirm that > this is the case and if this is a common issue, perhaps with an > equally common fix? > > -j > From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 1 23:02:22 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 00:02:22 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070802023532.26C724F7EB@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <006701c7d4b9$ef2b9e80$eb4df945@evan> >>> I just do not understand why some people have to take pot shots whenever his name or what he specifically does is mentioned. "Envy" is my guess. Many people here wish they had his career and convictions. They don't, so they put him down for it. >From my very first day in this hobby -- before I ever even heard of classiccmp.org -- Sellam was the first person I encountered and he was friendly to me from the start. That was about five solid years ago and nothing has changed except for the better. From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Aug 1 23:29:32 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, dwight elvey wrote: >> From: "Ensor" >> I've always regarded "C" as more of a "high level macro assembler", I >> personally don't regard it as a high level language as such - sort of a >> halfway house. > > The only higher level languages that I've worked with that > I could say were close to assembly were Forth and LISP. That is > only because there were machines made that were dedicated to > that particular lanuage. There was once a machine dedicated to running FORTRAN. See chapter 31 of Gordon Bell's book: http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/computer_structures__readings_and_examples/00000383.htm > C doesn't fit well onto any of the processors that I've seen lately. "Lately" is a mighty big qualifier for a language that's been around as long as C... -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Aug 1 23:50:13 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: Hello all! Just to add some clarity here: 1) No, "Vintage Computer Festival" is not trademarked internationally, nor do I have any inclination to invest the enormous amounts of money to do so. Besides, if anyone did want to try to put on a vintage computer festival and call it the "Vintage Computer Festival", there's a simple solution to that: I would hold a real Vintage Computer Festival down the street from theirs on the same dates and advertise the hell out of it and ensure that the wannabe "VCF" only got two attendees (who would be stragglers from the real VCF up the way ;) 2) There have been several discussions over the years about hosting a VCF UK. I can say it WILL happen--at some point. I just need someone in the UK eager and ready to make it happen. Talk to Evan or Pat about their experiences to see how it is done. Of course, talk to me if you're seriously interested and I'll get you started. It would be nice to finally have a VCF UK starting in 2008. 3) I am always interested in expanding the VCF to any area on Earth where there is a viable chance of it succeeding (i.e. attracting more than a few dozen attendees). I would really like to expand into Japan and South America, but I will consider any location (that doesn't conflict with existing events). This year is the 10th anniversary of the VCF (it's now on topic!) If you've never been to the main VCF in the Sillycon Valley, this is the year to come. The dates are November 3-4 (and don't be surprised if they are extended). Now that it's August, planning will begin in earnest. Speakers will start getting posted soon. Now is a great time to start thinking about an exhibit and getting it registered. A bunch of exciting announcements are in the works so stay tuned ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 00:07:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 00:07:37 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <010501c7d4b6$d6070870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <010501c7d4b6$d6070870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 8/1/07, Ensor wrote: > LOL, I used to seriously mess with my boss' head when dubugging code. Indeed. > I used to patch my code, in hex, in an EPROM emulator (a "Softy S3") as it > was quicker than editing the source on my PC, assembling it and then > downloading it the the emulator.... One of my fellow U Wisconsin employees modifies 1802 code for remote weather stations directly on the hex keypad of his EPROM programmer. He's quite good at it. > He just couldn't get his head around how I could "assemble" code in my head, > even when I explained to him how easy it was when you understood how the > opcodes were formed (doesn't work for all processors mind). I got that reaction with a PDP-11 once... our product had a 16-bit "window" register, right above the CSR. The PDP-11/VAX host writes to it and only the MC68K can read it, but whatever the MC68K writes, the PDP-11/VAX reads. We typically did our front-line debugging with a Fluke 9010A plugged into the MC68K socket, to check local memory, checksum ROM, etc. What my supervisor wanted was a program to run on the PDP-11 to constantly read the window, then write the same value to it. That way, the Fluke could write a value to the window, read it back, and if they matched, it demonstrated that most of the bus interface had to be working. He told me he wanted and asked me to get it written that day. I paused for a moment and said back, "L 1000 D 123737 D 173402 D173402 D 000137 D 1000 L 1000 S " (or something close to that, from memory). He stared at me, and asked me again to go off and write it and return by the end of the day. I repeated myself. For the third round, he said, "why don't you go off and write that program for me?" I had to tell him firmly, "I just did; go and type this in, verbatim... it's exactly what you asked for". He scowled at me, but finally typed it in, and what I gave him worked the first time. He still didn't believe it. I did a similar thing at the same place years later with the owner - only it was a hex patch on our 68K code. Fortunately, he's an old Geek from MIT, so he didn't question it when I told him to change byte X to value "foo" in a 4 page hex dump and send that to the customer to fix his problem. Java weenies just don't seem to have that depth of understanding these days ;-) -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 2 01:09:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:09:54 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46B0D902.326.4053ABCD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46ADE12E.32714.34BBA23E@cclist.sydex.com>, <46B11DB1.9000102@oldskool.org> <46B0D902.326.4053ABCD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46B17532.70209@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > When I do my delay, I wait for the bit to flip once, then again, then > again. Simple--even my old NT and 98 diskette device drivers worked > with it. What about interrupt jitter? Or did you lock out certain interrupts while you were measuring? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 2 01:24:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:24:39 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, Message-ID: <46B11637.3749.9CB736@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2007 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm not sure why you'd say that. It is a simple programming language > but is quite remote from most any assembly language I've worked > with. The only higher level languages that I've worked with that > I could say were close to assembly were Forth and LISP. That is > only because there were machines made that were dedicated to > that particular lanuage. > C doesn't fit well onto any of the processors that I've seen lately. > It is always sub-optimal. I code a lot of C, mostly for portability between systems. I don't like a lot of aspects, but it's "good enough" for most things--and there is the facility for coding inline assembly in many compilers. What's been depressing through the entire period of microcomputers is the lack of a really good assembler. Very many lack a literal constant facility, e.g. LEA EDX,="This is a string literal". Few assemblers implement data types in their macro language;; in particular, arrays of objects usually have to be synthesized lexically; there is usually no facility for remote assembly (specifying code to be stored and assembled in another location; very handy with macros). The list goes on. The odd thing is that most of these facilities were present in 60's era mainframe assemblers, where those facilities really did make things easier. I recall doing a command processor for an operator's console that featured auto command completion. A good assembler allowed me to specify the text value and format of each command and a good macro language compiled the list into a tree structure. C's preprocessor is very anemic. An example of a good preprocessor is that of PL/I, which almost duplicates most of the imperatives in the language for use at preprocessor time. In C++, some individuals take a perverse delight in showing that all manner of computation can be done using the template facility, but the same computations using the PL/I preprocessor would have been simple. Enough ranting. You work with what you have. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 2 01:29:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:29:58 -0700 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46B17532.70209@oldskool.org> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46B0D902.326.4053ABCD@cclist.sydex.com>, <46B17532.70209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46B11776.14752.A19629@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2007 at 1:09, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > When I do my delay, I wait for the bit to flip once, then again, then > > again. Simple--even my old NT and 98 diskette device drivers worked > > with it. > > What about interrupt jitter? Or did you lock out certain interrupts > while you were measuring? With the 765, jitter and intervening interrupts is immaterial. You need the delay when issuing commands and reading status to ensure that a *minimum" time has passed. If an interrupt intervenes, it's immaterial, as you've satisfied the minimum delay criterion. If you needed absolute precision, I suppose you could mask or disable interrupts, but in the case of disk commands, it's not necessary. Cheers, Chuck From marcbeck1982 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 22:21:28 2007 From: marcbeck1982 at yahoo.com (Marc Beck) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macintosh LCII for sale Message-ID: <842311.25308.qm@web52302.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have two Macintosh LCII, including monitors, but no keyboard and no mouse. I live in Owensboro, KY. I would sell them for $20 a piece, buyer pays shipping costs and they are sent COD. Marc Beck --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 22:48:19 2007 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:48:19 -0600 Subject: looking for DEC 875-A Message-ID: <000601c7d4b7$fd6cad10$6400a8c0@bear4> I am attempting to revive a Vax-11/750 that I recently acquired. During the several moves of the machine, damage was done to the 875-A power controller. The fuse holder, power control switch, and circuit breaker were all damaged. In particular, the circuit breaker (CB1) had the handles snapped clean off. The individual poles can be moved to the ON position, but always return to the OFF position. I am looking for a replacement of either the entire power controller, or, just the circuit breaker assembly. I have located a for-profit source of an 875-A, but it will be a few hundred dollars to purchase it. If anyone has a spare 875-A or breaker, I would be extremely grateful. Thanks! --barry From thrashbarg at kaput.ccnw.net.au Wed Aug 1 23:10:06 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.ccnw.net.au (Kotlowy) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:10:06 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > The only higher level languages that I've worked with that > I could say were close to assembly were Forth and LISP. FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN ! Alexis. From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Aug 2 04:39:40 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:39:40 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <109345.86207.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <109345.86207.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070802093940.GB26811@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Wed, Aug 01, 2007 at 04:10:54AM -0700, silvercreekvalley wrote: > For venues, what kind of size place would be > needed? ... The WACCI fairs which were held at Walsall FC's stadium some years ago had, at a rough guess, 100 or 150 attendees. They felt busy, but not over-crowded. They were held in the club's function suite. -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Aug 2 04:48:52 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:48:52 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070802094852.GC26811@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 12:57:53AM +0100, Ensor wrote: > > >....I would very much like to learn machine code. I figure that > > >when I start college interviews in a year going toward something > >>in the technology field.... > > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job > > market, unfortunately. > As an assembly language programmer of some 29 years experience (not to > mention some 31 years experience of electronics....I started young) I agree > with that in spades! When *I'm* interviewing prospective employees, I very much like to hear that they know their way around an assembler, even though most of our work is done in perl. If you've done assembler, you know programming from the *computer's* point of view, and I'm absolutely convinced that that gives you a significant advantage when it comes to debuggering, especially debuggering interactions with other systems, and a better understanding of the resources the computer makes available to your code. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness Irregular English: you have anecdotes; they have data; I have proof From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Aug 2 04:50:59 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:50:59 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years time, maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, without using the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK with an interest in old computers and hopefully a few who would want to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and about how much space, if any would they want? I guess we would need to double that up to allow for aisles etc. Then we'll know the size of venues to look for. By the way, I was really thrown by the mention of the planet Venus, it took me a while to work out it was a typo for venues :-) Then there's the question of vehicle parking. How many and are we talking only cars and small vans or big vans and articulated lorries? Roger, who is planning a 1300 sq ft extension to his computer room, and who lives on a farm in Kent. Probably too small and not central enough, but who knows. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 05:00:29 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 03:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PERQ T2 Message-ID: <656482.37327.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Tony, Thanks for the reply. The drive is a Micropolis 1303, and I think it has failed. The drive does spin down after a minute or so. I noticed the PERQ manuals do state that the hard disk must be able to perform a "locate disk heads" operation, even for a floppy boot - which I assume means find track 0. Hence I'm unable to boot from floppy. I will check the signal levels just to be sure. Wondering where to go from here. I'm guessing I could buy a replacement 1303 drive - but they are not cheap (hence my other posting) just to try and see. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 05:05:25 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 03:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micropolis 1303 Message-ID: <712791.75587.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Tony, I did try some other drives, namely some MFM drives I had to hand from a PDP 11. These were ST-412 drives. I simply connected the existing PERQ controller to the new drive, hoping the hard disk would show ready, but no joy. The drive didnt even show a flicker on the LED. The drives were all known working, and boot fine on a 11/23. I didnt change any jumpers as the drives were the only drive in the PDP 11's. Could this mean a fault EIO card? I've examined the board carefully under a maginfier for track breaks, dry joints, and damage. The edge connectors were cleaned and all IC's have been carefully re-seated. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Aug 2 05:16:39 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:16:39 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70708020316m31a9fceem72fc67af7d737665@mail.gmail.com> On 02/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? well I am, but am not able to get much away from Manchester area due to family commitments. [snips] > I guess we would need to double that up to allow for aisles etc. Then > we'll know the size of venues to look for. By the way, I was really > thrown by the mention of the planet Venus, it took me a while to work > out it was a typo for venues :-) lol that was me. Spotted it just as I hit Send.. but too late by then! > > Roger, > who is planning a 1300 sq ft extension to his computer room, and who > lives on a farm in Kent. Probably too small and not central enough, > but who knows. Oh for the space!! I've got the bottom of a wardrobe and my desk built into an alcove.. I was very interested in the possibilities for a Z-guage working replica discussed in another thread... (Or even the 1/12 originally requested) :-) Rob From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 2 06:58:50 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:58:50 -0400 Subject: "Whimper" newsletter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I can say that it works fine. I connected the ST225 (20mb) to the external connector on the T2K controller and did an HFORMAT and it worked. Problem is that it formats only to 10mb. Someone told me there was a way to force HFORMAT to format up to 20mb but it must be hidden commend line switches. What I might do is connect it to a PC and format it using a DOS 3.3 boot disk, then reconnect it to the T2K and see what happens. On 8/1/07 11:48 PM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > > > >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> >> All: >> >> Does anyone know if scans of the Tandy newsletter ?The Whimper? exists >> on-line? I did some Googling tonight and came up mostly with stuff on >> Jessica Tandy whimpering :-) I?ve been told these newsletters had some good >> T2k info in them but I don?t see them on-line anywhere. >> >> Specifically, I?m fishing for information on getting MFM hard drives >> working on Tandy 2000 machines. I have two machines with to seemingly bad >> Tandon TM502 drives. I saw another thread from last month that complained >> about the poor quality of the Tandon drives, so it?s probably bad drives. I >> have an ST225 drive that I want to run externally as a test but I haven?t >> been able to locate a manual on the T2k HD controller nor the external >> drive >> (25-1025 I think). I don?t want to connect it blindly before I?m confident >> the controller is setup properly. Irrational fear maybe but I want to >> proceed methodically. >> >> Any info appreciated. Thanks. >> > > Hi > Is this the 5Meg drive? I have a drive I removed from one of the > RS disk drive boxes. I don't recall the Tandom number but it may > still be good. > I needed a supply and a controller similar to the WD1000. This was > just what I needed. > In any case, what ever you use, you have to make sure that the step > rate is compatible. The 225 was intended to run with auto stepping. > It might not work well with other step rates. This often requires > some software modification or hopefully a table data change. > I do believe that all the RS HD controllers were WD1000 compatible. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_ > HM_mini_2G_0507 > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 07:35:13 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 05:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micropolis 1303 In-Reply-To: <712791.75587.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <220224.20943.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> While I don't know about the Perq systems, I do know a little bit about the Micropolis drives. The main problem with these is that the rubber bumper for the head stop turns to goo. When the heads are parked, they get adhered to the bumper, and then the drive will no longer be able to come ready - the heads never load. This can be repaired by opening the drive and removing the offending bumper. Search back in the archives for Micropolis, there have been many good posts about this in the past. Of course, there is a certain amount of risk involved when opening a hard drive and all that, but once again, others have explained this much better than I ever could. -Ian From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 09:03:32 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <912544.4712.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'd be delighted to attend a UK VCF if there was one or something similar. At a push I would be happy to demo a few interesting machines :) Ian ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 09:30:43 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:30:43 -0700 Subject: Help on finding photos of computers from the 80's In-Reply-To: <46B00412.6000503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob It isn't clear what she is looking for. Is she talking about small home machines, minis or mainframes? Dwight >From: Bob Rosenbloom > >I received this email from Rachel after she found my web site. If there is >anyone who can help they should contact her directly. >Probably should be photos you took of your own systems and own the rights >to. > >Bob > > >************************************************************************************************************************ >Bob, > >Thanks for your speedy reply. I enjoyed checking out your site. I was >looking for pictures of old computers in general, so I forwarded some >pictures from your site to my boss. One was of the Heathkit. He advised >me that he would rather me find computers from the 80's. Do you have any >suggestions on where I could find pictures of that era of computer? I >haven't had much luck with stock photo websites. > >Thanks again, > >Rachel Morgan >rachelrose at fuse.net > > >Hello there, > >I found your website looking for images of old computers for a TV series I >am working on. The show is called American Shopper and airs on the Fine >Living Network. I would love to use a couple of the images as reference >photos for a computer segment we are working on. Is there someone specific >I could talk to about the use of the photos? I know for a fact that we >could mention the website in the credits with a special thank you. Please >reply as soon as possible as we are putting the segment together in the >coming weeks. Even if we can't use the photos, I would appreciate any >helpful information you could give us. > >Thanks! > >Rachel Rose Morgan >jay TV >Producer >rachelrose at fuse.net > _________________________________________________________________ Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 2 10:16:18 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:16:18 -0700 Subject: Help on finding photos of computers from the 80's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B1F542.10304@sbcglobal.net> I believe she is looking for small machines, PC types etc. I offered to photo my 5150 and early Compaq. Bob dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Bob > It isn't clear what she is looking for. Is she talking about > small home machines, minis or mainframes? > Dwight > > >> From: Bob Rosenbloom >> >> I received this email from Rachel after she found my web site. If >> there is anyone who can help they should contact her directly. >> Probably should be photos you took of your own systems and own the >> rights to. >> >> Bob >> >> >> ************************************************************************************************************************ >> >> Bob, >> >> Thanks for your speedy reply. I enjoyed checking out your site. I >> was looking for pictures of old computers in general, so I forwarded >> some pictures from your site to my boss. One was of the Heathkit. >> He advised me that he would rather me find computers from the 80's. >> Do you have any suggestions on where I could find pictures of that >> era of computer? I haven't had much luck with stock photo websites. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Rachel Morgan >> rachelrose at fuse.net >> >> >> Hello there, >> >> I found your website looking for images of old computers for a TV >> series I am working on. The show is called American Shopper and airs >> on the Fine Living Network. I would love to use a couple of the >> images as reference photos for a computer segment we are working on. >> Is there someone specific I could talk to about the use of the >> photos? I know for a fact that we could mention the website in the >> credits with a special thank you. Please reply as soon as possible >> as we are putting the segment together in the coming weeks. Even if >> we can't use the photos, I would appreciate any helpful information >> you could give us. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rachel Rose Morgan >> jay TV >> Producer >> rachelrose at fuse.net >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance > to win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 2 11:08:54 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:08:54 -0700 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <46B11637.3749.9CB736@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Aug 2007 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I'm not sure why you'd say that. It is a simple programming language > > but is quite remote from most any assembly language I've worked > > with. The only higher level languages that I've worked with that > > I could say were close to assembly were Forth and LISP. That is > > only because there were machines made that were dedicated to > > that particular lanuage. > > C doesn't fit well onto any of the processors that I've seen lately. > > It is always sub-optimal. > > I code a lot of C, mostly for portability between systems. I don't > like a lot of aspects, but it's "good enough" for most things--and > there is the facility for coding inline assembly in many compilers. To paraphrase Churchill: C is a terrible language, except for all the others. Apropros of not much, but to ensure this is on-topic, I never hear B or BCPL mentioned, the ancestors of C, and even 'closer to the machine'. I'm not sure how many C programmers these days even know it has such ancestors. Around 1980 I was programming in Z (dev'd at U of Waterloo IIRC, Thoth/Verex OS), another descendant of B/BCPL and so a sibling of C; a little simpler and arguably cleaner than C but more data-typing than B/BCPL. Probably would have been good for embedded systems/micro-controller stuff. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Aug 2 11:21:07 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:21:07 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46B20473.9010502@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/08/2007 10:50, Roger Holmes wrote: > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? Me :-) > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years time, > maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time > Who would be interested and about how much space, if any would they want? Depending on date and venue, I'd be interested in exhibiting, and *maybe* assisting with organisation. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 2 11:39:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:39:17 -0700 Subject: Thoth Message-ID: <46B208B5.5020002@bitsavers.org> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Around 1980 I was programming in Z (dev'd at U of Waterloo IIRC, Thoth/Verex > OS), another descendant of B/BCPL and so a sibling of C Are there still copies of Z or the operating systems around that you know of? I asked Dave Cheriton about this a few years ago, and he didn't have a copy. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 11:57:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:57:05 -0500 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46B11637.3749.9CB736@cclist.sydex.com> <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 8/2/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 1 Aug 2007 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > > C doesn't fit well onto any of the processors that I've seen lately. > > > It is always sub-optimal. C works pretty well on my PDP-11 ;-) Of course, it's been long pointed out that C is just PDP-11 assembly shorthand - having waded through the guts of C-compiler output on a few architectures, I completely agree that's how it started out. C on a 68K is nice, too, but for those that know the PDP-11 and 68K architecture, that's no surprise. C on a VAX is also nice. Can't say I've dig deeply enough on any processor architecture newer than about 1978, so perhaps that merely reinforces your statement. > Apropros of not much, but to ensure this is on-topic, I never hear B or BCPL > mentioned, the ancestors of C, and even 'closer to the machine'. I'm not sure > how many C programmers these days even know it has such ancestors. Amiga programmers know about BCPL. AmigaDOS, nee Tripos, is riddled with "BPTR"s - take a regular pointer to anything, enforce long-word alignment, and, as a consequence, observe that the bottom two bits are always 00. Now... since the pointers your compiler generates always end in two zeros, right-shift your pointers twice before saving them in a variable. This has the intended benefit of allowing you to store pointers to objects in a 256K (18-bit) environment in 16-bit variables. It has the unintended consequence of messing with the heads of assembler and C programmers. You have to remember to double-left-shift BPTRs before dereferencing them, and to double-right-shift them when you are done incrementing them and want to store them for later use by a system call or whatever. This routinely leads to pointer bugs when writing AmigaDOS programs, especially among the unwary. So I've never programmed in B or BCPL, but I spent years dealing with the downstream effects of them. So did every Amiga C and assembler programmer 20 years ago. Other than the on Amiga, though, I suspect to most, B and BCPL are footnotes in K&R. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 2 11:59:16 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:59:16 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [sdiy] Wanted: Multibus (late 70s microprocessor bus) extender card Message-ID: <200708021259.16393.rtellason@verizon.net> Can anybody here help this guy out? ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [sdiy] Wanted: Multibus (late 70s microprocessor bus) extender card Date: Tuesday 31 July 2007 17:30 From: "Steve Lenham" To: "SDIY list" Hi, Does anyone happen to have spare, or can anyone point me in the direction of an inexpensive source for, an extender card for Multibus (the late 70s microprocessor bus standard)? I know that Digikey and Mouser list them new, but they are around $120 each. I'm working on a Lexicon 224 reverb unit (a fascinating device), which uses a Multibus backplane and eight plug-in cards. I need to be able to work on these cards with them still attached to the bus - hence the need for an extender. Any pointers would be much appreciated. I'm in the UK, but am happy to import. Cheers, Steve L. _______________________________________________ Synth-diy mailing list Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Aug 2 11:49:55 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:49:55 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <200708020246.l722j6Jo045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708020246.l722j6Jo045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 18:38 01-Aug, Jerry wrote: >Hi, > >I'm trying to get a MONO Cube I have here back to >a complete box. Good going! >Missing is the >- Floppy Drive 2.88 Sony and Bezel Drive is not so critical, many of them didn't have that. But having one is pretty nice when it comes time to boot the install CD. A Bezel is a *big* deal because of cooling airflow, I found out. My floppy drive looks out through a non-bezel aperture, which I keep covered with tape most of the time so cooling air doesn't escape that way. >- mounting Bracket for the Drives ??? The large piece > above the Power Supply is there. I would guess it had > something to hold the 3 1/2 drives. The what? ;-) NeXT supplied 5.25" hard drives, which just fit between the walls and mount with bolts through the bolt-holes in the side walls. You are more or less on your own for mounting a 3.5" drive in a cube. Mine >- no Optical drive or cover. Not Sure it had one ?? Many of them didn't have an optical drive, and almost *none* of them now have a functioning optical. Dust is one culprit, but there seems to be something (I have not really investigated) that kills them all over time. The optical is a great novelty and I really wish it had caught on, but it's not too useful today. >- no expansion slot covers. Rear cover is there. I think these would be less critical for cooling, but still good to have. >- mouse is missing Depending on the model, you may be able to use an ADB mouse (though will miss the other button). Do you have an ADB keyboard (distinguished by the "control" bar below the space bar)? >This is a 68040 25 built is 1991 > >Looking into the 2.88 floppy it looks like there was >no standard for the connection on the different makes. >So either I have to use a sony or make a adapter Sony, I think. I'm not aware of any substitutes. I can endorse Randy Rencsok, reachable through: http://www.channelu.com/Turbo/index.html as a parts supplier. There are also a fair number of downloads on his site which may be of use to you, as well as pictures of some of the missing parts. I also note the existence of http://www.blackholeinc.com/ but have not done business with Rob Blessin, though he's been pretty supportive in general of the NeXT community. >Thanks, Jerry > >Jerry Wright >JLC inc Good Luck! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 2 12:23:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:23:39 -0600 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <46B11637.3749.9CB736@cclist.sydex.com> <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46B2131B.7060709@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > To paraphrase Churchill: C is a terrible language, except for all the others. I like C, K & R only. I think with out the PDP 8 ^H 11 I don't think C would ever have developed since the instruction set of the 11 is very powerful and modern. You have a nice 1 to 1 mapping of instructions from C to machine language. > Apropros of not much, but to ensure this is on-topic, I never hear B or BCPL > mentioned, the ancestors of C, and even 'closer to the machine'. I'm not sure > how many C programmers these days even know it has such ancestors. So where is programing language? 'A' :) What I want to find is a hardcover black book (1970's). If I could remember the title I could find the book. It was teaching the concepts of computer programing but with a language higher than plain assembler. I have the bare machine ( well ok , just some blank proms at the moment ) and am still looking for a good bootstrap language. Word width is 24 bits with 12 bit bytes, and a 12 bit opcode so I don't need virtual machines with blah blah but simple model 1 - index reg, 1 ac, 1 stack, Immediate and 1 base reg addressing. > Around 1980 I was programming in Z (dev'd at U of Waterloo IIRC, Thoth/Verex > OS), another descendant of B/BCPL and so a sibling of C; a little simpler > and arguably cleaner than C but more data-typing than B/BCPL. Probably would > have been good for embedded systems/micro-controller stuff. Well what about programing language '[' for embedded machines. :) PS. The only other compiled language I like is PL/516 but I never used it for getting closer to the bare machine. 8K words or 16 K(bytes) really makes you think just what features you use with any programing language you develop. Ben alias woodelf From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 2 12:30:49 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:30:49 -0700 Subject: HP 165xx internal documentation? Message-ID: <46B214C9.8030203@bitsavers.org> On the chance that someone might know someone from HP Colorado Springs.. Is there any documenation around on the operating systems or internal workings of the 16500A or B logic analyzers? The 500B is a pretty sophisticated device, but of course there is no useful docs in the service manual on how the hardware or software actually works. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 2 13:09:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:09:12 -0700 Subject: Thoth References: <46B208B5.5020002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46B21DC7.19F9EE2E@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Around 1980 I was programming in Z (dev'd at U of Waterloo IIRC, Thoth/Verex > > OS), another descendant of B/BCPL and so a sibling of C > > Are there still copies of Z or the operating systems around that you know of? > I asked Dave Cheriton about this a few years ago, and he didn't have a copy. Short answer: I'm afraid, to the best of my knowledge, it's another bunch of software victimized by entropy. Longer answer: I used to work on it at UBC, where Cheriton passed through for a couple of years before heading for Stanford. At UBC we had a TI-990 machine running Verex OS with Zed compiler there. The system continued to be used for a little while after Cheriton left, then fell into disuse as it was no longer seeing active development and people migrated to other systems. (My last project on the system was retargetting the Z compiler for the 68000.) (For others taking an interest, the Thoth-->Verex OS and Zed language support were developed with a focus on portability. The guiding principle in the OS was that processes and inter-process communication were cheap (in contrast to UNIX). The system supported multiple processes in the same address space and the blocking send-receive-reply IPC ensured certain issues regarding resource limits and reduced the complexity of code and data structures needed. It made for some interesting and elegant program structure/design.) One day circa 1983/4 the system wouldn't boot and nobody could quite muster the knowledge or enthusiasm to work around the problem and do a raw boot (I still remember the system password ..talk about useless information.). I wanted to make an effort to do so, and wanted to get copies of a lot of stuff over to another system, but had other tasks to focus on. (To my knowledge, Dave had taken a copy to Stanford (where it developed into the VKernel written in C, as I'm sure you are aware).) The 990 hardware went to a reseller I think and the software and manuals were tossed. I have a few spatterings of Z program listings still and a couple of technical reports about Verex/Zed, but that's it. I wish I had the Zed reference manual as it would be nice to be able to compare the language definition at least. It's (vaguely) conceivable there's still a copy of the Zed ref manual in the department library, as it was published as a UBC technical report, I'll look/ask if I'm out there sometime. Say hi to Dave if you see him again, it was a fun system to work and learn on. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 2 14:16:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:16:03 -0700 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <46B1CB03.11189.35EF943@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2007 at 11:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Apropros of not much, but to ensure this is on-topic, I never hear B or BCPL > > mentioned, the ancestors of C, and even 'closer to the machine'. I'm not sure > > how many C programmers these days even know it has such ancestors. I recall a conversation with a fellow at Xerox R&D on Coyote Hill Road (not PARC) around 1983 or so. He remarked that much of the Xerox document management code was in 'B' and not C. Cheers, Chuck From julian at jnt.me.uk Thu Aug 2 14:20:42 2007 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:20:42 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708020316m31a9fceem72fc67af7d737665@mail.gmail.com> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> <2f806cd70708020316m31a9fceem72fc67af7d737665@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B22E8A.7050907@jnt.me.uk> Rob wrote: > On 02/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? >> > > well I am, but am not able to get much away from Manchester area due > to family commitments. > > I'm in the UK too (in the Manchester area...) and would be interested in attending. Julian From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Aug 2 14:21:08 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: RE: trademarks I stand corrected: Hans Franke acquired EU trademarks on "Vintage Computer Festival" some time ago. I imagine these would extend into the UK in some fashion, but then I'm not an international lawyer (or otherwise). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 2 14:31:03 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:31:03 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070802150011.060f6790@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Roger Holmes may have mentioned these words: >... Then we'll know the size of venues to look for. By the way, I was >really thrown by the mention of the planet Venus, it took me a while to >work out it was a typo for venues :-) I've never been to the good ol' UK, so with the talk of "Northern England" I just thought it was the name of a town in the region. After all, if you're looking for something a bit more "outworldly" I've been to Vulcan a couple of times! I've also been near Moscow (despite having never been to Russia) and when people tell me to go to Hell I can honestly say "been there a few times." And yes, it has frozen over in the past. http://files.myopera.com/velmu/blog/hell.jpg These are all towns in my home state of Michigan in the US. ;-) And where's better than Intercourse, Pennsylvania? .... .... Climax, Michigan. ;-) =-=-=-=-= That said, I've mentioned this before and I'll say it again: I'd like to see a VCF Canada - if it's nearby me (I live right on the Canadian border) I'd be happy to help, if I have the cash & time. [[ In the past I didn't have much time - I'm currently part of the jobless statistic, so now I don't have the cash - but hopefully that'll change soon... ]] Even Toronto or Ottawa would actually be closer to me than the VCF-MidWest (which unforch, I was unable to attend this year), and it would be neat to see more Canadian-designed machines, like some of the kit from the University of Waterloo.... but that's just IMHO. Back under my rock now... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:58:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:58:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Micropolis 1303 In-Reply-To: <712791.75587.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from "silvercreekvalley" at Aug 2, 7 03:05:25 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > I did try some other drives, namely some MFM drives > I had to hand from a PDP 11. These were ST-412 > drives. Now wait a second... The PERQ needs uses DS0 and DS1 (Or DS1/DS2 if the drive numbers them 1-4) for the first and second drive. Now my PDP11s don;t have modern things like 5.25" wincheseters, but I was under the impression that on the normal PDP11 Qbus controller you set the drie to the hgighest drive select (DS3 or DS4 depeding on how they're numbered). You do want to check this. > > I simply connected the existing PERQ controller to the > new drive, hoping the hard disk would show ready, but > no joy. > > The drive didnt even show a flicker on the LED. That really does sound like an drive select problem > > The drives were all known working, and boot fine on a > 11/23. I didnt change any jumpers as the drives were > the only drive in the PDP 11's. > > Could this mean a fault EIO card? It could. It might also be a fault in the DIB, incorrect drives select links, etc, etc, etc. I'd not suspect the EIO board _yet_ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:54:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:54:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQ T2 In-Reply-To: <656482.37327.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from "silvercreekvalley" at Aug 2, 7 03:00:29 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > Thanks for the reply. > > The drive is a Micropolis 1303, and I think it has > failed. The > drive does spin down after a minute or so. You know, it's really hard debuggin a machine when you're not told all the symptoms :-) More seriously, this does sound like the standard Micropolis 1300-series problem, when that rubber bumper goes sticky and prevents head movelemt. The bad news is that all Micropolis 1300s (and their ESDI equivalent?) suffer from it, or at least if they don't they will soon. Finding a replacement 1300-seires is probably not the wisest thing to do, therefore. I've never tried it, but I have heard that people have had some success in openign up the HDA *yes, outside a clean room), removing the bumper, shutting the whole thing up and using the drive as normal. How long it'll keep working is anohter matter. > > I noticed the PERQ manuals do state that the hard disk > must > be able to perform a "locate disk heads" operation, > even > for a floppy boot - which I assume means find track 0. I beleive the hard disk must og 'Ready' Quite what that means I will have to check -- the boot ROMs check for a particular state in one bit of a particluar port. I candig out the EIO and DIB schematics to find out just waht that means if you like. > Hence > I'm unable to boot from floppy. > > I will check the signal levels just to be sure. > > Wondering where to go from here. I'm guessing I could > buy a > replacement 1303 drive - but they are not cheap (hence > my > other posting) just to try and see. Any reason not tu use some other ST412-interfaced drive? The PERQ _can_ use it. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 14:49:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:49:24 -0500 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B1CB03.11189.35EF943@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00f001c7d4b5$0fde3b60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> <46B1CB03.11189.35EF943@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/2/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Aug 2007 at 11:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > Apropros of not much, but to ensure this is on-topic, I never hear B or BCPL > > > mentioned, the ancestors of C, and even 'closer to the machine'. I'm not sure > > > how many C programmers these days even know it has such ancestors. FWIW, that's not my quote. Checking back on this thread, I responded to that from Brent Hilpert, as far as I can tell. > I recall a conversation with a fellow at Xerox R&D on Coyote Hill > Road (not PARC) around 1983 or so. He remarked that much of the > Xerox document management code was in 'B' and not C. Interesting. I know little about the details of Xerox products, so little tidbits like that are illuminating to me. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 2 15:24:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:24:24 -0600 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > RE: trademarks > > I stand corrected: Hans Franke acquired EU trademarks on "Vintage Computer > Festival" some time ago. > > I imagine these would extend into the UK in some fashion, but then I'm not > an international lawyer (or otherwise). > How about Vintage Computing Festival? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 2 16:12:17 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:12:17 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46B248B1.8080107@philpem.me.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? Me for one. > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years time, > maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, without using > the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK with an interest > in old computers and hopefully a few who would want to exhibit theirs. > Who would be interested and about how much space, if any would they want? I'd be interested in visiting the show, and possibly exhibiting, depending on location. Somewhere in West Yorkshire would be very nice, but I'm not above spending money on bus/train tickets or bribing family members for lifts :) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 2 16:21:44 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:21:44 -0700 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <46B24AE8.8090400@bitsavers.org> > I recall a conversation with a fellow at Xerox R&D on Coyote Hill > Road (not PARC) around 1983 or so. He remarked that much of the > Xerox document management code was in 'B' and not C. Unlikely. 'B' was a BCPL derivative which predated 'C' at Bell Labs. BCPL was used at PARC as the basic high level language for the Alto. During this same time period, a strongly typed language called Mesa was developed, which was used on the Alto, and later on the machines which evolved into the Xerox Star. Variations of Mesa were the primary Xerox development languages up through Globalview, which caused Xerox huge problems with hiring programmers, since no one outside of this world had any experience with the language. They eventually developed a Mesa to C translator called Memosa. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 2 16:24:13 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:24:13 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [sdiy] Wanted: Multibus (late 70s microprocessor bus) extender card Message-ID: <46B24B7D.6020708@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone happen to have spare, or can anyone point me in the direction of > an inexpensive source for, an extender card for Multibus Halted Electronics has dozens of them in their 1/2 off bin From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:59:22 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:59:22 +0100 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >>>> Apropros of not much, but to ensure this is on-topic, I never hear B or BCPL mentioned, the ancestors of C, and even 'closer to the machine'. <<<< B is certainly very little known nowadays. I think the only compiler that had much circulation was that for GCOS (and possibly Multics?) on the big GE/Honeywell mainframes. I think that compiler came from the University of Waterloo. When we (at City University, London) had a Level 66 system we wrote almost all of our utilities in B (the Honeywell tradition was to use the assembler, GMAP - but we only ever wrote 3 modules in that ... the 3 modules that were necessary for control of access and accounting). I think a truly honest appraisal of the origin of C would be more complex than BCPL -> B -> C. For a start BCPL was a simplified version of CPL intended for systems programming; B is best seen as taking PL/I and transforming it in the same way as CPL became BCPL (ie take out any expensive implicit conversions and anything else that needed massive runtime) B and BCPL were ideal for word-oriented machines, but the arrival of character-addressing made them somewhat clumsy and so C essentially became a rewrite of B for such. So I would include PL/I in C's family tree. [also many people knew how to do semi-system-dependent tricks in Fortran for system programming and C - in its K&R form - gave these people similar opportunities] CPL, incidentally, was intended as a successor to Fortran IV and Algol 60 combining "the best features" of both, just as PL/I was similarly trying to replace Fortran, Cobol, and Algol 60. Algol 68 was a different attempt to provide an "Algol with fewer mistake" but the pendantry of the precision of declarations was enough to put most people off. Oh, and we don't talk about ADA (!) :-) Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/931 - Release Date: 01/08/2007 16:53 From Philip.Hastings at pseg.com Thu Aug 2 14:53:52 2007 From: Philip.Hastings at pseg.com (Hastings, Philip R.) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:53:52 -0400 Subject: perkin-elmer/concurent manuals Message-ID: <133E54D164BDF042906DE1517458E33001F09148@NJNBUMX05.enterprise.pseg.com> I might be interested in these if you still have them ----------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail, including any attachment(s), is intended solely for use by the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, or a person designated as responsible for delivering such messages to the intended recipient, you are not authorized to disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message, in whole or in part, without written authorization from PSEG. This e-mail may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. This notice is included in all e-mail messages leaving PSEG. Thank you for your cooperation. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 2 15:15:30 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:15:30 -0400 Subject: PERQ T2 Message-ID: <0JM5002K4XK9WHY5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PERQ T2 > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:54:44 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> Hi Tony, >> >> Thanks for the reply. >> >> The drive is a Micropolis 1303, and I think it has >> failed. The >> drive does spin down after a minute or so. > >You know, it's really hard debuggin a machine when you're not told all >the symptoms :-) > >More seriously, this does sound like the standard Micropolis 1300-series >problem, when that rubber bumper goes sticky and prevents head movelemt. >The bad news is that all Micropolis 1300s (and their ESDI equivalent?) >suffer from it, or at least if they don't they will soon. > >Finding a replacement 1300-seires is probably not the wisest thing to do, >therefore. > >I've never tried it, but I have heard that people have had some success >in openign up the HDA *yes, outside a clean room), removing the bumper, >shutting the whole thing up and using the drive as normal. How long it'll >keep working is anohter matter. I've done it three times and two are still running over 8 years and many thousands of hours later. I'ts been done by others. Allison >> >> I noticed the PERQ manuals do state that the hard disk >> must >> be able to perform a "locate disk heads" operation, >> even >> for a floppy boot - which I assume means find track 0. > >I beleive the hard disk must og 'Ready' Quite what that means I will have >to check -- the boot ROMs check for a particular state in one bit of a >particluar port. I candig out the EIO and DIB schematics to find out just >waht that means if you like. > >> Hence >> I'm unable to boot from floppy. >> >> I will check the signal levels just to be sure. >> >> Wondering where to go from here. I'm guessing I could >> buy a >> replacement 1303 drive - but they are not cheap (hence >> my >> other posting) just to try and see. > >Any reason not tu use some other ST412-interfaced drive? The PERQ _can_ >use it. > >-tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 17:16:25 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 23:16:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <930127.6112.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Roger Holmes wrote:> First a simple question, how many readers of > this list are in the UK? I am one of (hopefully) many :) > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in > two or three years > time, maybe we could do something much > simpler in the mean time, > without using the VCF name. Just a get > together of anyone in the UK > with an interest in old computers and hopefully > a few who would want > to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and > about how much space, > if any would they want? Not much. Just enough to have a table for my laptop & opened up Amiga. I could bring a few issues of 80 Microcomputing aswell, which would be the ones I have duplicates of. The duplicates aren't in particularly good condition so it doesn't matter too much if they were to get accidentally damaged :) All the other issues of 80 Microcomputing I have are pretty much in mint condition and I wouldn't risk bringing to the event (is that bad? Would anyone else feel the same way?). > I guess we would need to double that up to > allow for aisles etc. Then > we'll know the size of venues to look for. By > the way, I was really > thrown by the mention of the planet Venus, it > took me a while to work > out it was a typo for venues :-) > > Then there's the question of vehicle parking. > How many and are we > talking only cars and small vans or big vans > and articulated lorries? I'd just bring my car. > Roger, > who is planning a 1300 sq ft extension to his > computer room, and who > lives on a farm in Kent. Probably too small and > not central enough, > but who knows. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 2 17:18:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:18:21 -0700 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B24AE8.8090400@bitsavers.org> References: <46B24AE8.8090400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46B1F5BD.21265.405DB79@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2007 at 14:21, Al Kossow wrote: > > I recall a conversation with a fellow at Xerox R&D on Coyote Hill > > Road (not PARC) around 1983 or so. He remarked that much of the > > Xerox document management code was in 'B' and not C. > > Unlikely. 'B' was a BCPL derivative which predated 'C' at Bell Labs. I recall the conversation quite vividly--and that the gentlement I spoke with (who was in a position to know) emphasized the point; i.e. "We don't use 'C', but rather 'B'". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 2 17:21:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:21:13 -0700 Subject: C history / was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <46B20197.D1970C3F@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <46B1F669.28074.4087C3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2007 at 19:59, Andy Holt wrote: > Algol 68 was a different attempt to provide an "Algol with fewer mistake" > but the pendantry of > the precision of declarations was enough to put most people off. > > Oh, and we don't talk about ADA (!) :-) What, no JOVIAL? I seem to recall reading some of that code spun for NSRDC (or was it NWL?) back in the late 60's. Cheers, Chuck From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:30:27 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 23:30:27 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <11c909eb0708021530q30a0b52bxd603034ca05f57d7@mail.gmail.com> On 02/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: > > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years > time, maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, > without using the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK > with an interest in old computers and hopefully a few who would want > to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and about how much space, > if any would they want? My thoughts were developing along the same lines, the key question surely is numbers. How many do we think would attend, and could some core events be lined up to to ensure a worthwhile experience? I'm thinking here of the datacentre visits that (I think) were run from VCF Europe last year and the invovlment of industry alumni that the US events have enjoyed. It's not like we don't have a few home-grown pioneers - Clive Sinclair and various Acorn people spring to mind. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:52:19 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 23:52:19 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0708021552m260e2457m318b51ab588cce1b@mail.gmail.com> > > > time (that is the voice of experience, I can assure you). You will have > to debug it. Now I debugged my first homebrew computer (Z80 based) using > nothing more than an analogue multimeter (VOM) and an LED+resistor to > look at logic states. I don't recomend it!. A 'scope is very useful, so > is a logic analyser. I've just got to a major milestone on a 6502 based prototype (ie it actually runs my code :) and I've got to say I felt I'd actually achieved something special after debugging with nowt but a meter and led+resistor probe(s). Being so restricted in the tools I had really made me *think* about what to test and the end result is that I know exactly how the thing works. Sorry Tony, but I was really glad I was working on a breadboard! Someone else has said on this thread that programming at the machine level can inform what you do when working higher up the stack and they were spot on - it might not get you past the HR drones any easier but it _will_ make you a better programmer. If this is a first project then I'd say keep it simple - 6502 or Z80 would seem like the right kind of area to be in, plenty of good internet resources too. Being a 6502 fanboy since about 1982, I'm biased, of course. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From river at zip.com.au Thu Aug 2 18:16:21 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:16:21 +1000 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <200708021615.l72GDtx9055931@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Hi, I would have thought "scratch-built" implied designing and building your own home brewed system. Building a kit like the Micro-KIM is not a scratch build exercise. All it will do is give you more practise in soldering. If the whole purpose of this exercise is to have an old 8-bit system so you can program in hex and/or assembler, then you can download an emulator and play around with it from there. If you mainly want to run things off the various serial and parallel ports then something like the Micro-KIM would be useful. If you want to do the whole lot yourself, then the best way to get "dirty" is to design your own system, build it yourself (either via wire-wrap or soldering) and develop your own small debug/monitor program. There's plenty of information on the Internet to find some small designs that you can use, and also hints and ideas on debug/monitor code. I design and build my own systems - not for anything really purposeful, but mainly for fun. I like to see how many different processor systems I can build. I also like expanding on old systems, such as the AIM65 or wire-wrap extra memory/IO boards for Multibus-I, etc. The easiest oldish 8bit processors to use for a homebrew system would be the 6502, 6802, Z80 and 8085. When you've built one... say a 6502... then the next fun thing is to build (say) and 8085 system, with similar functionality and using the Intel family peripheral chips. Then you can get onto the less common processors like the 2650, 9980... or even the SC/MP. In any event, whatever path you take, have fun, learn and enjoy yourself. Seeyuzz River From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 2 18:24:01 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xerox 820-II boot disk In-Reply-To: <200708012117.l71LHETS019645@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200708012117.l71LHETS019645@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I've unearthed a Xerox 820-II, the original boot disk to which has gone > > bad. Is there someone here who can create a copy of the original 8" boot > > disk and whatever else was shipped with the Xerox 820-II? I have blanks, > > but no means to write to them. > > I have the 820-II boot disk up on my site in ImageDisk format. > > I have directions on my site to make an adapter which should let > you connect one of the 8" drives to a 5.25" cable on a PC (don't > bother with the 820-II harness - just open up the disk box and > connect directly to the 50-pin connector on one of the drives). > > Another option might be to write the boot disk to a 5.25" HD > diskette, then connect that in place of the A: drive (again > you will need an adapter), boot from it and copy to an 8" > disk in the B: drive. I was hoping to find someone who has already done this since I barely have the room to do so. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 2 18:41:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:41:11 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> river wrote: > Hi, > I would have thought "scratch-built" implied designing and building your own > home brewed system. Building a kit like the Micro-KIM is not a scratch build > exercise. All it will do is give you more practise in soldering. *In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.* - Carl Sagan End of argument! :) > If the whole purpose of this exercise is to have an old 8-bit system so you > can program in hex and/or assembler, then you can download an emulator and > play around with it from there. If you mainly want to run things off the > various serial and parallel ports then something like the Micro-KIM would be > useful. The other disadvantage is with a NEW scratch built computer is the software tools needed like a assembler. Ben alias Woodelf From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 2 21:07:37 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:07:37 -0400 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems Message-ID: <200708022207.37747.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I've been trying for a few days to get my VAX 7000/640 (currently with only one processor, so a 610 I guess) to MOP boot into a VMS cluster. I'm running OpenVMS hosted off SIMH, and have tried both 7.2 and 7.3, and have successfully booted my VAX 4000/100 off the setup. I've also successfully booted the firmware update utility (LFU) and the file "ISL_LVAX_073.SYS" that comes on the install CD, through MOP. However, when I try to do a mop boot, the system just halts and says boot failure: --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> b -fl 0,0,0 exa0 Initializing... F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A M . . . . . . P TYP o + . . . . . . + ST1 . . . . . . . . B BPD o + . . . . . . + ST2 . . . . . . . . B BPD + + . . . . . . + ST3 . . . . . . . . B BPD + . . . . . + . . + . . . + C0 XMI + . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C3 . A0 . . . . . . . ILV . 512 . . . . . . . 512MB Firmware Rev = V4.3-4842 SROM Rev = V3.1-0 SYS SN = AB25002CX0 Booting... Connecting to boot device exa0 Created device: exa0.0.0.1.0 Attempting MOP boot. Requesting MOP Assistance Volunteer. MOP Assistance Volunteer found. Loading... ... Load complete! Image size: 133241 Host name: SIMV73 Host address: aa-00-04-00-06-04 bootstrap code read in base = 154000, start = 0 boot device name = exa0.0.0.1.0 boot flags 0,0,0 boot device type = 69 controller ID = a unit number = 0 node ID = 0 channel = 0 slot = 1 hose = 0 jumping to bootstrap at 154000 CPU:0 Console entry reason: HALT instruction in kernel mode Entry PC: 006B6368 Entry PSL:041F0600 >>> boot failure --------------------------------------------------------------------- I've tried it omitting the -flags part, and with -fl 1, but they all give the same error. Anyone have any useful hints? Or, another VAX 7000 to try repeating my (failing) experiment on? Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 2 23:23:14 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:23:14 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708030023.16106.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 18:18, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job > > > market, unfortunately. > > > > That's absolutely correct, because most HR drones don't actually > > look for people who know anything about computers. If Joe wants to > > learn something about computers, as opposed to learning only what's > > guaranteed to get him a job in a suitly company, then I very strongly > > recommend that he pursue the path that he discussed above. > > The problem comes from the fact that there are only a finite number of > seconds in a day :-) Indeed. > . If you're not careful you can end up in my position, knwoing a bit about > things that nobody seems to want, but not having the right buzzwords on your > resume to actually get a job. That sure sounds familiar... :-) > > Joe...As for your not being hopeful about building a TTL-based > > computer from scratch...The knowledge required to do it is readily > > available. If you REALLY want to do it, you can. Your father's > > I will second that. I am living (?) proof that it's possible to > understand this stuff. It didn't take me _that_ long either. TTL can be fun. I breadboarded a three-chip setup once with a 555, a 7400, and a 7474 that sequenced four LEDs. Stuff like that... > > assertion that he couldn't do it after six years of college is really > > irrelevant here...not many college EE programs teach anything about > > low-level computer architecture, and sadly, even fewer CS programs > > do. Learn about boolean algebra, learn about Karnaugh maps and other > > minimization techniques, learn about combinatorial and sequential > > And learn to do it 'by hand', not just using CAD tools. The latter are > undoubtedly very useful, but knowing how to do things by hand will let > you know when said CAD systems have made a right mess of your design. Over and over again I see newbies struggling with what they're trying to do and what the simulation is telling them should be happening, which isn't necessarily all that connected to the real world. > > logic...not only will you be able to design and build a TTL-based > > computer, but you'll end up knowing more about *computers* (as > > opposed to "how to install Microsoft products on PCs") than most > > anyone churned out by today's colleges. > > It's a great pity the latter is all most people care about. It is, > perhaps, a little worrying that I am classed as computer-illiterate.... >From time to time we get a mailing from the local community college, and that's all they seem to cover in there--- m$ products, to a few different levels. Nothing beyond that. It's downright scary at times. > [I choose not to use Microsoft products, or much commercial software at > all for that matter, for what I consider to be good reasons _for my own > situation_. As do I. > Yes I could learn how to install and use such programs, probably in a couple > of afternoons. And I'd like to see any of the so-called PC experts > understand a microcode source listing in the same length of time :-)] :-) > > Further (also directed at Joe)...As you already very obviously > > know, it's actually possible for one to learn something without it > > being spoon-fed in a school. > > Very much so! Now, how do you convince droids of that? Both the sort that > try to enforce bogus safety regulations ('No, we can't sell you that > spare part, you're not trained to fit it' when actually I could _make_ > said part in an hour or so...) and those that work in HR departments 'No, > Dr Duell, you don't have the right qualfiications for this job' meaning I > don't have some bit of paper saying I know how to turn on a PC, even > though I routinely design such things...) That's why I'm doing what I'm doing just now, a very non-technical job, but at least it's helping to pay the bills.... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 2 23:37:10 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:37:10 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <20070802094852.GC26811@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20070802094852.GC26811@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <200708030037.10200.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 02 August 2007 05:48, David Cantrell wrote: > On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 12:57:53AM +0100, Ensor wrote: > > > >....I would very much like to learn machine code. I figure that > > > >when I start college interviews in a year going toward something > > > > > > >>in the technology field.... > > > > > > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job > > > market, unfortunately. > > > > As an assembly language programmer of some 29 years experience (not to > > mention some 31 years experience of electronics....I started young) I > > agree with that in spades! > > When *I'm* interviewing prospective employees, I very much like to hear > that they know their way around an assembler, even though most of our > work is done in perl. If you've done assembler, you know programming from > the *computer's* point of view, and I'm absolutely convinced that that > gives you a significant advantage when it comes to debuggering, > especially debuggering interactions with other systems, and a better > understanding of the resources the computer makes available to your > code. "Debuggering"...? I love it! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 2 23:43:29 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:43:29 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [sdiy] Wanted: Multibus (late 70s microprocessor bus) extender card In-Reply-To: <46B24B7D.6020708@bitsavers.org> References: <46B24B7D.6020708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200708030043.29965.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 02 August 2007 17:24, Al Kossow wrote: > > Does anyone happen to have spare, or can anyone point me in the > > direction of an inexpensive source for, an extender card for Multibus > > Halted Electronics has dozens of them in their 1/2 off bin He's not a subscriber to this list... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 2 23:47:16 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:47:16 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 02 August 2007 19:41, woodelf wrote: > > If the whole purpose of this exercise is to have an old 8-bit system so > > you can program in hex and/or assembler, then you can download an > > emulator and play around with it from there. If you mainly want to run > > things off the various serial and parallel ports then something like the > > Micro-KIM would be useful. > > The other disadvantage is with a NEW scratch built computer is the software > tools needed like a assembler. > Ben alias Woodelf I've been thinking about that, aren't there cross-assemblers out there that would do the job? I'd be interested in hearing about any that would run under linux, for the z80, 8085, or 6502 chips... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 00:56:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:56:55 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au>, <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca>, <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46B26137.28937.5A9ACC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2007 at 0:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've been thinking about that, aren't there cross-assemblers out there that > would do the job? I'd be interested in hearing about any that would run > under linux, for the z80, 8085, or 6502 chips... At one time or another, cross-assemblers in FORTRAN were coded up for most of the early 8-bit chips. I believe that Intel even offered one as a standard product at one time. GI certainly did--I have it mentioned in their product brochure. The real problem would be locating one of these. In all likelihood, one last saw existence as a stretch of 9-track 1/2" tape. Cheers, Chuck From phat at mountaincable.net Thu Aug 2 22:05:59 2007 From: phat at mountaincable.net (Paul K) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:05:59 -0700 Subject: As is test equipment Message-ID: <000601c7d57b$37b486a0$6701a8c0@yourphtw5cynhc> Hello there: I realize this is a bit of stretch since 2002 but do you still have the General Radio 1217/1201C combo still for sale? Regards, Paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 3 02:02:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:02:29 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46B2D305.5090307@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've been thinking about that, aren't there cross-assemblers out there that > would do the job? I'd be interested in hearing about any that would run > under linux, for the z80, 8085, or 6502 chips... > Google finds: http://www.solorb.com/linux8bit/ 6800, 6809 & others http://www.lassie.demon.co.uk/microlab/assembler.html 6502 http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ibm7090.html Classic big iron from I.B.M. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 03:42:18 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:42:18 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <46B2D305.5090307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> <46B2D305.5090307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <11c909eb0708030142i517fa585w779c68105029a535@mail.gmail.com> On 03/08/07, woodelf wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I've been thinking about that, aren't there cross-assemblers out there > that > > would do the job? I'd be interested in hearing about any that would run > > under linux, for the z80, 8085, or 6502 chips... > > > Check out www.6502.org for general 6502 (and successors) resources including a good forum. I'm sure there are cross assemblers for linux linked from the software/tools section. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 3 03:54:24 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:54:24 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023104@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi As much as I would like to see something along these lines. It would be best to sort out the funding first. Perhaps a small group of interested parties could meet to see if such an event is feasible in the UK. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Burton Sent: 02 August 2007 23:16 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK VCF? Roger Holmes wrote:> First a simple question, how many readers of > this list are in the UK? I am one of (hopefully) many :) > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in > two or three years > time, maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, > without using the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK > with an interest in old computers and hopefully > a few who would want > to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and > about how much space, > if any would they want? Not much. Just enough to have a table for my laptop & opened up Amiga. I could bring a few issues of 80 Microcomputing aswell, which would be the ones I have duplicates of. The duplicates aren't in particularly good condition so it doesn't matter too much if they were to get accidentally damaged :) All the other issues of 80 Microcomputing I have are pretty much in mint condition and I wouldn't risk bringing to the event (is that bad? Would anyone else feel the same way?). > I guess we would need to double that up to allow for aisles etc. Then > we'll know the size of venues to look for. By the way, I was really > thrown by the mention of the planet Venus, it took me a while to work > out it was a typo for venues :-) > > Then there's the question of vehicle parking. > How many and are we > talking only cars and small vans or big vans and articulated lorries? I'd just bring my car. > Roger, > who is planning a 1300 sq ft extension to his computer room, and who > lives on a farm in Kent. Probably too small and > not central enough, > but who knows. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Aug 3 04:01:38 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:01:38 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 14:24 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > RE: trademarks > > > > I stand corrected: Hans Franke acquired EU trademarks on "Vintage Computer > > Festival" some time ago. > > > > I imagine these would extend into the UK in some fashion, but then I'm not > > an international lawyer (or otherwise). > > > How about Vintage Computing Festival? I would call it something completely different if I was going to run one. If people are going to get all precious about their valuable trademarks then sod 'em. Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? Gordon From andy at smokebelch.org Fri Aug 3 05:05:42 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:05:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070803110039.D15964@plum.flirble.org> On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 14:24 -0600, woodelf wrote: >> Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> RE: trademarks >>> >>> I stand corrected: Hans Franke acquired EU trademarks on "Vintage Computer >>> Festival" some time ago. >>> >>> I imagine these would extend into the UK in some fashion, but then I'm not >>> an international lawyer (or otherwise). >>> >> How about Vintage Computing Festival? > > I would call it something completely different if I was going to run > one. If people are going to get all precious about their valuable > trademarks then sod 'em. Indeed, whats in a name? And I never really did buy that "I got there first so its mine" thing. Certainly when it comes to things that are supposed to be official, national or represent the interests of a particular group. Commercial concerns and the protection of lucrative brands are another matter. I suppose if the VCF provides a livelyhood for the folks that organise it, and they have invested a lot in it, then could be an argument. > Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite > someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? Quite. This is a pretty horrible attitude... Andrew From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Aug 3 04:42:20 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:42:20 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> > > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years >> time, maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, >> without using the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK >> with an interest in old computers and hopefully a few who would want >> to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and about how much space, >> if any would they want? > > > My thoughts were developing along the same lines, the key question > surely is > numbers. 7 replies so far from the UK. > How many do we think would attend, and could some core events be > lined up to to ensure a worthwhile experience? I'm thinking here of > the > datacentre visits that (I think) were run from VCF Europe last year I see. Probably the biggest concentration of these in the UK is still central London, though I'm out of touch with that side of things. > and the involvement of industry alumni that the US events have > enjoyed. Many of the real pioneers (who are still alive) are in the Computer Conservation Society. Maybe we could involve them, I am a member but I don't attend meetings (except one as a speaker). > It's not like we don't have a few home-grown pioneers - Clive > Sinclair and various Acorn people spring to mind. Ah, you're talking more modern pioneers, ones of the microprocessor era. Yes indeed. Alan Sugar's probably free now :-) Just kidding. Do we have any contacts or ideas on how to contact them? Isn't it Sir Clive now by the way, we don't want to put anyone's nose out of joint from the first contact. Roger. From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 3 06:30:33 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 06:30:33 -0500 Subject: xerox 820-II boot disk In-Reply-To: References: <200708012117.l71LHETS019645@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200708031035.l73AZbhq019100@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I have directions on my site to make an adapter which should let > > you connect one of the 8" drives to a 5.25" cable on a PC (don't > > bother with the 820-II harness - just open up the disk box and > > connect directly to the 50-pin connector on one of the drives). > I was hoping to find someone who has already done this since I barely have > the room to do so. You shouldn't need a lot of additional space. The adapter consists of a 50-pin edge card connector (you can make this from a cut-down ISA connector if you need), and the 34-pin connector salvaged from an old 5.25" drive PCB. If your PC doesn't have one, you will also need a PC floppy cable with a 5.25" drive connector. If you prefer, you could make the adapter using a pin-header and connect directly to a 3.5" floppy cable. You already have the 8" drives in an enclosure with power supply. You pop the cover off, sit your PC beside it with it's cover off, and run the floppy cable from the PC to one of the 8" drives. Trickiest part is iirc the 820 has single-density on the system tracks and many PCs can't do that. Depending on where you are located, there may be someone nearby with an 8" <> PC setup who can make you the disk. (Where are you?) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Aug 3 05:48:02 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:48:02 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070803110039.D15964@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: I'm not especially bothered with arguments over names / trademarks etc. but I live in the UK (number 3 for Manchester!) and would happily attend a show wherever in the country it were located. If it were within 100 miles I'd also be prepared to exhibit some of my SGI machines. I have a transit van at my disposal so could offer load space to other local exhibitors too. Regards, Austin. From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 06:30:07 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:30:07 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [sdiy] Wanted: Multibus (late 70s microprocessor bus) extender card In-Reply-To: <200708030043.29965.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46B24B7D.6020708@bitsavers.org> <200708030043.29965.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Do you have the web site details please? Ta, Andy P. On 03/08/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 02 August 2007 17:24, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Does anyone happen to have spare, or can anyone point me in the > > > direction of an inexpensive source for, an extender card for Multibus > > > > Halted Electronics has dozens of them in their 1/2 off bin > > He's not a subscriber to this list... > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > --James > M Dakin > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 3 07:29:17 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:29:17 -0500 Subject: More on CUBIX - Was: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <200708031132.l73BWmRY031939@hosting.monisys.ca> >> If the whole purpose of this exercise is to have an old 8-bit system so you >> can program in hex and/or assembler, then you can download an emulator and >> play around with it from there. If you mainly want to run things off the >> various serial and parallel ports then something like the Micro-KIM would be >> useful. There's an experience gained by building it yourself that simply can't be obtained by playing with an emulator. Building a real/physical computer is a worthwhile excercise and beneficial learning experience. Besides, friends and family are much less impressed by a wave of the hand at a PC running an emulator with the statement "I downloaded that!" then they are by a rats nest of wires, circuit boards, cables and such and "I built it myself!" > The other disadvantage is with a NEW scratch built computer is the software tools > needed like a assembler. I can help in this area... I've been doing development tools for embedded systems since the 70's, and I've got assemblers, disassemblers, debuggers/monitors and in most cases C compilers for many different 8 and 16-bit CPU families. Another plug for my CUBIX system: The system comes with the following resident (runs on CUBIX itself) development tools: 6809 Assembler ASP - A simple high-level language/preprocessor for the assembler. Debugger (breakpoints, single-step, disassembler, all the usual commands etc.) Basic Forth Micro-APL C compiler 8080 simulator Text editors / utilities / etc. - Source is posted for all of the above except for the C compiler. I can also provide PC based cross development tools for the 6809 including: Hardware Debug Monitor (RAMless - needs only ROM to run) Full-up ROMable 6809 monitor (Quite powerful) 6809 Assembler 6809 Disassembler (Does symbols, memory block types, comments etc.) 6809 C compiler 6809/CUBIX simulator/emulator - Lets you run 6809 code on your PC with ICE type debugging capabilities - Also boots CUBIX, provides access to all the resident tools etc. I'm obviously biased, but I think it's a worthwhile system to build. Depending on your skill/experience/time available, it should take anywhere from a day or two to a few weeks to build it. What you get from the excercise is a unique system that can actually do useful things, and the experience and satisfaction of having created it with your own two hands. Having built it yourself, along with the fact that I have released the source code means that you have the opportunity to fully understand EVERYTHING about this system - down to the tiniest wire, and the last byte of code - this is something that rarely happens with modern computers. This system is simple enough that you shouldn't have trouble following the design, yet powerful enough to be considered a "real" computer. As noted in previous message, a functional CUBIX system including disk controller and serial console can be built with less than two-dozen chips (My schematic shows 26 ICs, however thats with two serial ports (with level convertors), and multiple 6264 8K RAMs - Use of a bigger SRAM and 1 serial would drop 1/2 dozen ICs or more). The trickiest part to find are the 6809 CPU, and the integrated FD data eparator that I used. 809 can be found if you look around (Hitachi 6309 can also be used), and if you can't find a 9216, you can use the design from the WD databook - a few more chips, but not many. CUBIX itself occupies an 8K ROM - so you will need to get an EPROM programmed. Once you have this, you can bootstrap the system/utilities disks by either creating them with ImageDisk, or formatting a blank under CUBIX and uploading each file serially and saving it to disk (this is how I used to create CUBIX masters). If you like, you can build the system in stages - All you need at first the CPU, some memory and at least one serial port - very simple to build. Drop in my MON09 monitor and you have a very capable single-board computer. You can cross develop software on the PC, download it through the serial port and run/debug it with a pretty decent debugger. When you are ready, flesh out the memory and add the disk controller, swap to the CUBIX ROM and you have a fully functioning disk based system. I should also point out that unlike most home-grown designs, the CUBIX system is very well documented. Two of the three 360k diskettes that normally accompany the system are filled with documentation. Over a dozen documents containing more than 300 pages. What else can I say - all of the CUBIX material is available free on my site. If people are interested, I could organize it into a separate "building a CUBIX system" page with more information, additional PC tools and other related material. Let me know if there is any interest. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Fri Aug 3 06:32:53 2007 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:32:53 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070803113253.GA8291@discordance.org.uk> On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 10:50:59AM +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? > Another one here :) From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 06:38:00 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:38:00 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: G'Day, This seems to be slowly drifting off topic. On 03/08/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: [VCF being a trademarked name in Europe.] I don't really care what it is called. > Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite > someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? Strange, I didn't recall Sellam typing anything like this but I'll check my email to find the original message. I took the suggestion of a rival VCF is that one could be undertaken if someone was going to set one up and would risk damaging the image of VCF other VCFs. I am sure that if we were to drop a couple of friendly emails to the right people, have them share their experiences to improve the event, we would not only be able to offer a better event but could also use the name in a way that would add value and credibility. Now, we could all type about this, discuss the finer points of international trademark law and call each other names, or we could push ahead, think of a rough location and discuss some of the logistics and what would be needed to undertake VCF-UK. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 06:44:23 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:44:23 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070803113253.GA8291@discordance.org.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> <20070803113253.GA8291@discordance.org.uk> Message-ID: And here! Andy P. On 03/08/07, Adrian Burgess wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 10:50:59AM +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? > > > > Another one here :) > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 3 07:02:48 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:02:48 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Aug 2007 00:57:53 BST." <006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200708031202.l73C2mCe010835@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ensor" wrote: > >The last time I had a job as an assembly language programmer was 16 years >ago, and even then those types of jobs were damn thin on the ground (now >they're non-existant) - since every idiot these days seems to think "C" is >the way to go....which it isn't.... :-( The last thing I want is 1600 posts to this list on a flame war about "c versus asm", so *PLEASE* don't respond to this over and over, but, as an anecdote, I recently hand coded a PPC algorithm in assembler, and spend 3-4 days working on it, got it all pretty and tight and when I benchmarked it, the hand written code was *SLOWER* than the C code. GCC is pretty good at generating fast code these days if - like any tool - you learn how to use it. Now I did hand-tune the c-code for a number of days, checking cycle counts on a simulator and moving things around to force the compiler to do things, did a lot of inline-ing and things like using constant array indexes and explicit if's where possible. So these days my feeling is that C is just a high level assembler, with a expression optimizer on top. don't get me wrong. I use assemblers all the time, for lots of different machines, but I was recently surprised to be beaten by a machine. I'll also note that this is a 32 bit machine. My comments only really apply to 32 bit machines with a reasonable pipeline and some amount of branch prediction. I've been able to do *much* better than the compiler writing assembler on super-super-scaler cpu's like the TI DM642. But trying to keep 6 ALU's going at one time can make your head explode. -brad From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 3 07:09:37 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:09:37 -0500 Subject: More on CUBIX - Was: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708031132.l73BWmRY031939@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> <200708031132.l73BWmRY031939@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46B31B01.2080008@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I should also point out that unlike most home-grown designs, the CUBIX system > is very well documented. Two of the three 360k diskettes that normally accompany > the system are filled with documentation. Over a dozen documents containing > more than 300 pages. > > What else can I say - all of the CUBIX material is available free on my site. > If people are interested, I could organize it into a separate "building a > CUBIX system" page with more information, additional PC tools and other related > material. Let me know if there is any interest. [waves hands wildly] Yes, I'm most definitely interested. Short version is that I keep coming back to that page with lust in my heart. Long-winded explanation follows if you're bored. Let me put it this way - I've always been more of a mechanic than an engineer, from motorcycles to drilling rigs to computers. I might be *interested* in the underlying principles, but I don't *need* more than the basics to run and repair them. I'd have to admit that I'm fairly-well trained in computers, but almost completely uneducated. I bought & built an SBC6120 this year and am in the process of building a P112. The idea originally was that they would provide "travelling toys", since I spend a lot of time on the road.** I had some trouble finding a couple of components at the prices I like on the SBC6120, and had to (gasp) read some datasheets to see what I could substitute. That opened the can of worms; with a little glimmer of what some minor parts of the puzzle do, it looks like I'm stuck getting the education now. CUBIX looks like an excellent vehicle for a DIY "how computers compute" course, mostly because there's a truly feasible and tangible diploma at the end. I'm pretty sure, with my assembly-line skills and capacity to paint-by-numbers, I can end up with a working CUBIX. I think, given the understanding I already have, I can also end up with the underpinnings of a real education. I'm pretty excited about that. Doc **Turns out that the P112 may end up travelling, but I'll have to hope Bob makes another run of SBC6120 or similar, since I seem to have turned mine into an art project.... From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Aug 3 05:31:56 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:31:56 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org> <781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 10:42 +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > I see. Probably the biggest concentration of these in the UK is still > central London, though I'm out of touch with that side of things. I got the impression that the bulk of the UK classic computing community was around the Midlands and north, with a few exceptions. Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? I'm about half-way up Scotland on the left-hand side. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Aug 3 07:04:02 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:04:02 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <1186142642.1804.11.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 12:38 +0100, Simon Fryer wrote: > G'Day, > > This seems to be slowly drifting off topic. > > On 03/08/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > [VCF being a trademarked name in Europe.] > > I don't really care what it is called. > > > Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite > > someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? > > Strange, I didn't recall Sellam typing anything like this but I'll >From yesterday evening: 1) No, "Vintage Computer Festival" is not trademarked internationally, nor do I have any inclination to invest the enormous amounts of money to do so. Besides, if anyone did want to try to put on a vintage computer festival and call it the "Vintage Computer Festival", there's a simple solution to that: I would hold a real Vintage Computer Festival down the street from theirs on the same dates and advertise the hell out of it and ensure that the wannabe "VCF" only got two attendees (who would be stragglers from the real VCF up the way ;) > check my email to find the original message. I took the suggestion of 17:50BST, 2/7/2007 or thereabouts > a rival VCF is that one could be undertaken if someone was going to > set one up and would risk damaging the image of VCF other VCFs. I am > sure that if we were to drop a couple of friendly emails to the right > people, have them share their experiences to improve the event, we > would not only be able to offer a better event but could also use the > name in a way that would add value and credibility. I'd rather not use the name at all, if that's the sort of attitude we're facing. This is not to say anything against Sellam, who does great and important work for the classic computing community; I'd rather just use a different name and avoid any potential hassle. Sellam can run a VCF-UK if he likes, and I'll be glad to see it and perfectly happy to come along with a stand. > Now, we could all type about this, discuss the finer points of > international trademark law and call each other names, or we could > push ahead, think of a rough location and discuss some of the > logistics and what would be needed to undertake VCF-UK. Now we're getting down to it. It might be worth talking to the organisers of other computery events, in particular Linuxy ones (rather than the "computer fairs" that are just car boot sales of pirate DVDs and cheap crappy hardware). I was at LugRadioLive last month - maybe we should discuss it with the organisers of that? Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 3 08:21:53 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:21:53 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070803110039.D15964@plum.flirble.org> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <20070803110039.D15964@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <46B32BF1.7070806@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/08/2007 11:05, Andrew Back wrote: > On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> I would call it something completely different if I was going to run >> one. If people are going to get all precious about their valuable >> trademarks then sod 'em. > > Indeed, whats in a name? And I never really did buy that "I got there > first so its mine" thing. Certainly when it comes to things that are > supposed to be official, national or represent the interests of a > particular group. Commercial concerns and the protection of lucrative > brands are another matter. I suppose if the VCF provides a livelyhood > for the folks that organise it, and they have invested a lot in it, then > could be an argument. > >> Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite >> someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? > > Quite. This is a pretty horrible attitude... Obviously some people here don't realise that what they've seen is merely Sellam's "direct" manner. The name Vintage Computer Festival is pretty well known in our community, so it would be silly to abuse it out of spite. Sellam's not actually subscribed to this list, so griping about him is rather pointless anyway. Why don't we just get on with it? Sellam's already offered advice if anyone want to set one up, and I'm sure Hans Franke and others who've been involved with VCFs in Germany would be happy to help too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Aug 3 08:21:54 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:21:54 -0400 Subject: UK VCF?...bickering In-Reply-To: <1186142642.1804.11.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1186142642.1804.11.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46B32BF2.4030706@comcast.net> I lurk here on the mailing list to learn about interesting things that's happening in the vintage community. I don't profess to make a name for myself and or to show how much of an expert I am. I have enough "stripes" on my arm and scars on my butt to show otherwise. I've been looking for years for a close knit community such as the one at MARCH, besides VCF of course. I've always wished about attending the VCF out in Cali but the funds have always been tight. Thankfully, there's a closer one to me in NJ (VCFe) But when I see this bickering go on endlessly like this about organizing, it just turns me off. As it should to most of __you__ I have seen just as much waste of bandwidth on here with all this useless bantering. I suggest you all grow up. =Dan http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 12:38 +0100, Simon Fryer wrote: > >> G'Day, >> >> This seems to be slowly drifting off topic. >> >> On 03/08/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >> [VCF being a trademarked name in Europe.] >> >> I don't really care what it is called. >> >> >>> Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite >>> someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? >>> >> Strange, I didn't recall Sellam typing anything like this but I'll >> > > >From yesterday evening: > > 1) No, "Vintage Computer Festival" is not trademarked internationally, > nor > do I have any inclination to invest the enormous amounts of money to do > so. Besides, if anyone did want to try to put on a vintage computer > festival and call it the "Vintage Computer Festival", there's a simple > solution to that: I would hold a real Vintage Computer Festival down > the > street from theirs on the same dates and advertise the hell out of it > and > ensure that the wannabe "VCF" only got two attendees (who would be > stragglers from the real VCF up the way ;) > > >> check my email to find the original message. I took the suggestion of >> > > 17:50BST, 2/7/2007 or thereabouts > > >> a rival VCF is that one could be undertaken if someone was going to >> set one up and would risk damaging the image of VCF other VCFs. I am >> sure that if we were to drop a couple of friendly emails to the right >> people, have them share their experiences to improve the event, we >> would not only be able to offer a better event but could also use the >> name in a way that would add value and credibility. >> > > I'd rather not use the name at all, if that's the sort of attitude we're > facing. This is not to say anything against Sellam, who does great and > important work for the classic computing community; I'd rather just use > a different name and avoid any potential hassle. Sellam can run a > VCF-UK if he likes, and I'll be glad to see it and perfectly happy to > come along with a stand. > > >> Now, we could all type about this, discuss the finer points of >> international trademark law and call each other names, or we could >> push ahead, think of a rough location and discuss some of the >> logistics and what would be needed to undertake VCF-UK. >> > > Now we're getting down to it. It might be worth talking to the > organisers of other computery events, in particular Linuxy ones (rather > than the "computer fairs" that are just car boot sales of pirate DVDs > and cheap crappy hardware). I was at LugRadioLive last month - maybe we > should discuss it with the organisers of that? > > Gordon > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 3 08:50:18 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:50:18 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B32BF1.7070806@dunnington.plus.com> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <20070803110039.D15964@plum.flirble.org> <46B32BF1.7070806@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46B3329A.8050905@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Obviously some people here don't realise that what they've seen is > merely Sellam's "direct" manner. The name Vintage Computer Festival is > pretty well known in our community, so it would be silly to abuse it out > of spite. Ducking in again... I think we just saw some Sellam humour, that's all :-) Personally I don't see any gain whatsoever in *not* doing any event as a VCF. Why not draw on past VCF experiences and expertise from elsewhere? Why not use the VCF name and past successes as a way of helping to attract speakers / investors to a UK event? I suspect a lot of people will underestimate the time, money and effort needed to organise and promote something like this. Anything making that a little easier seems invaluable. Don't forget that UK companies/institutions are notoriously reluctant to part with money when compared to the US - I suspect that getting the necessary sponsorship and investment is going to be a huge problem in comparison to sorting out a venue and getting hold of some interesting speakers. It *might* be possible to do something backed by the BCS - it's possible that with the right pitch they'd be interested in some sort of partial sponsorship (it helps them raise awareness of their organisation and brings in some new blood, after all). If it were done at one of the pioneering computing areas such as Bletchley or Manchester, that'd probably help too. I think it can be done, but it might be a way off - and it's important to get the first one right so that it sets the stage for future events... cheers Jules From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 08:56:40 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 06:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) Message-ID: <520142.18489.qm@web56210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm in Yorkshire, but would travel anywhere in the UK for a vintage show :) Outside London would be a lot cheaper I would guess, also travelling into London is not cheap these days - especially if you want to exibit and need to bring a car/van. Manchester would seem a good place - as it has some interesting exibits at the Science Museum too - including the SSEM (Manchester Baby) of course - a working recreation of the original - now that's vintage! Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 08:58:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:58:23 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs Message-ID: OK, folks, - IBM 580 and 581 tape units. Any ideas? From the description I received, they sound like they are 60s era. That is all I know. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 09:12:07 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <180340.65487.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > OK, folks, - IBM 580 and 581 tape units. Any ideas? > From the > description I received, they sound like they are 60s > era. That is all > I know. They're heavy. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 09:13:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:13:46 -0700 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Simon Fryer" >Strange, I didn't recall Sellam typing anything like this but I'll >check my email to find the original message. I took the suggestion of >a rival VCF is that one could be undertaken if someone was going to >set one up and would risk damaging the image of VCF other VCFs. I am >sure that if we were to drop a couple of friendly emails to the right >people, have them share their experiences to improve the event, we >would not only be able to offer a better event but could also use the >name in a way that would add value and credibility. The original in the thread was about someone stating that they would steal the name to spite Sellam and what could he do about it. That was his response to such a post. Things always sound a little different out of context. How many VCF's have you been to? You seem to be a judge as to how well or not how well such evens go. I've been to several here on the West Coast of the US. Having seen pictures of many that are first time events in many locations, I can tell you that the longer running events here on the West Coast have matured quite well. Exhibit quality and content has improved year after year. The speakers have been the type that many pay considerable money for to hear speak. He usually has a consignment table as well as some space for those who want to sell items. I've always considered it just rounding out the show and not something to be ashamed of but I guess those in the UK see things differently. In any case, Sellam has also made it clear that he would be willing to work with anyone willing, in the UK to honestly work toward setting one up. Not living that requires someone local to work the logistics. There or a few on this list that have held grudges against Sellam for various reasons. None of which are related to his ability to organize these shows. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 3 10:01:39 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:01:39 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:58:23 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >OK, folks, - IBM 580 and 581 tape units. Any ideas? From the >description I received, they sound like they are 60s era. That is all >I know. >-- >Will 3580 IBM Ultrium tapedrive & 3581 Tape Autoloader make sense but are modern DAT tapes. I can find no referance to a 580 or 581 other than as the subchannel address of 580 for the active SID tape. 3420 used address 580 for tape emulated on disk. for that matter address 580 was used as the tape address in several places. The RISC/6000 had a 7013 rev ... 58F, 58H, 580, ... that is 58 (Oh) not Zero Type 580 magnetic tape system with one transport ($19,700) ... on the PDP-8... not IBM :( and 581 Tape Stations ... but that was on the RCA 501 A picture, or more info ... please !!!!!! The other Bob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 10:15:30 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:15:30 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > 3420 used address 580 for tape emulated on disk. for that matter address 580 was used as the tape > address in several places. I halfway suspect this, but the description does not match ("blue on bottom, white on top"). I will see if I can get the guy to take a cell-phone picture. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 11:20:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:20:35 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708031202.l73C2mCe010835@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: >, <200708031202.l73C2mCe010835@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <46B2F363.14961.7E4A8BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2007 at 8:02, Brad Parker wrote: > I'll also note that this is a 32 bit machine. My comments only really > apply to 32 bit machines with a reasonable pipeline and some amount of > branch prediction. I recall that if one had a particularly large loop or piece of code to code for the CDC 6600, one approach was to code it in FORTRAN and compile it with full optimization with generated assembler source. While this usually didn't give the fastest solution, it usually gave you a jump start on tweaking the code. Not infrequently, the optimizer would employ a coding trick that you hadn't thought of. One of the optimization options that could be specified was the ominous U flag for "unsafe optimization". Not unsafe in the sense of producing bad code, but rather in employing optimizations that could create a protection fault by, say, pre-fetching operands that might, on the final iteration of a loop, lie outside the program field length. Cheers, Chuck From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 11:21:28 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-412 Jumpers Message-ID: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm just trying to figure out the jumper settings on a ST-412 drive. I've read the manual and it sort of helps, but its somewhat obtuse in style. I have two drives which are taken from working PDP 11/23's - they both have the same setting on the jumper block. The jumper block is a 16 pin DIL socket, with a 14 pin DIL plug inserted. The plug has 7 metal bars, 3 of which are open circuit, the rest are closed. Working from the connector end of the PCB, the first bar - open second bar - open third bar - closed fourth bar - open fifth bar - closed sixth bar - closed seventh bar - closed Looking in the manual the first bar would persumably be written as 8-9, the second as 7-10 etc? Anyway, I'm trying to use this in a PERQ just to test the EIO is working, and I can boot of floppy. So I need to set this as drive 1. What bars would I need to open and close? Thanks Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 11:32:39 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:32:39 +0000 Subject: ST-412 Jumpers In-Reply-To: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ian, Try here... http://www.4drives.com/DRIVESPECS/ Ta, Andy P. On 03/08/07, silvercreekvalley wrote: > > I'm just trying to figure out the jumper settings > on a ST-412 drive. I've read the manual and it sort > of helps, but its somewhat obtuse in style. > > I have two drives which are taken from working > PDP 11/23's - they both have the same setting on > the jumper block. > > The jumper block is a 16 pin DIL socket, with a > 14 pin DIL plug inserted. The plug has 7 metal > bars, 3 of which are open circuit, the rest > are closed. > > Working from the connector end of the PCB, the > > first bar - open > second bar - open > third bar - closed > fourth bar - open > fifth bar - closed > sixth bar - closed > seventh bar - closed > > Looking in the manual the first bar would persumably > be written as 8-9, the second as 7-10 etc? > > Anyway, I'm trying to use this in a PERQ just to > test the EIO is working, and I can boot of floppy. > > So I need to set this as drive 1. What bars would I > need to open and close? > > Thanks > > Ian. > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > that gives answers, not web links. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 3 12:04:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <46B23D78.5050606@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186131698.30210.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070803100320.S33745@shell.lmi.net> > How about Vintage Computing Festival? Why TRY to infringe on somebody else's name? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 3 12:23:25 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xerox 820-II boot disk In-Reply-To: <200708031035.l73AZbhq019100@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200708012117.l71LHETS019645@hosting.monisys.ca> <200708031035.l73AZbhq019100@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I was hoping to find someone who has already done this since I barely have > > the room to do so. > > You shouldn't need a lot of additional space. The adapter consists of a > 50-pin edge card connector (you can make this from a cut-down ISA connector > if you need), and the 34-pin connector salvaged from an old 5.25" drive > PCB. If your PC doesn't have one, you will also need a PC floppy cable > with a 5.25" drive connector. If you prefer, you could make the adapter > using a pin-header and connect directly to a 3.5" floppy cable. > > You already have the 8" drives in an enclosure with power supply. You > pop the cover off, sit your PC beside it with it's cover off, and run > the floppy cable from the PC to one of the 8" drives. > > Trickiest part is iirc the 820 has single-density on the system tracks > and many PCs can't do that. > > Depending on where you are located, there may be someone nearby with an > 8" <> PC setup who can make you the disk. (Where are you?) Bakersfield (southern California) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 3 12:27:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:27:01 -0400 Subject: ST-412 Jumpers In-Reply-To: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708031327.02002.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 August 2007 12:21, silvercreekvalley wrote: > The jumper block is a 16 pin DIL socket, with a > 14 pin DIL plug inserted. The plug has 7 metal > bars, 3 of which are open circuit, the rest > are closed. Those things are one-time use, and annoying. I've successfully replaced them with a DIPswitch, which allows you much more in the way of flexibility to try different settings. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 3 12:41:32 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:41:32 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:32:53 BST." <20070803113253.GA8291@discordance.org.uk> Message-ID: <200708031741.SAA01350@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Adrian Burgess said: > On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 10:50:59AM +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? > > > > Another one here :) And here... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Aug 3 13:22:25 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:22:25 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <520142.18489.qm@web56210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <520142.18489.qm@web56210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B37261.2070909@philpem.me.uk> silvercreekvalley wrote: > I'm in Yorkshire, but would travel anywhere in the UK > for a vintage show :) Outside London would be a lot > cheaper I would guess, also travelling into London is > not cheap these days - especially if you want to > exibit > and need to bring a car/van. Hmm, looks like the theory that most of the UK vintage computer enthusiasts are in the North is true then. Maybe it's something in the water :P > Manchester would seem a good place - as it has some > interesting exibits at the Science Museum too - > including > the SSEM (Manchester Baby) of course - a working > recreation > of the original - now that's vintage! But MSIM is (from what I've heard) a day out in itself, so it's unlikely you'd be able to do both in one day. Could make a weekend of it though - UKVCF on one day and MSIM on the next. Perhaps a group booking could be arranged with the MSIM for interested parties... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Aug 3 14:07:06 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:07:06 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org> <781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46B37CDA.6060309@gifford.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? I'm about half-way up > Scotland on the left-hand side. I'm in north Bristol. Would definately be interested in a VCF-UK! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 14:06:57 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linus 1000 Write-Top computer Message-ID: <4248.21164.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I just received my Linus 1000 computer - it's nice, interesting to use. But it has no stylus (writing pen), just the wire - still useful, just have to be careful to not scratch the screen. Does anyone have any interesting information, manuals, or a stylus? Thanks! Steve. --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 14:37:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:37:09 -0700 Subject: ST-412 Jumpers In-Reply-To: <200708031327.02002.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <200708031327.02002.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46B32175.15174.898A12A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2007 at 13:27, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Those things are one-time use, and annoying. I've successfully replaced them > with a DIPswitch, which allows you much more in the way of flexibility to > try different settings. :-) Same here--and highly recommended. In one case, the DIP switch resulted in too high a profile, so I substituted a DIP header with soldered jumpers. At least one could reuse it. Another technique I've seen is simply to use little U-shaped jumpers of #20 sold wire jammed into the socket. Not pretty, but it works. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 14:44:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:44:58 -0400 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems In-Reply-To: <200708022207.37747.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200708022207.37747.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <21677313-1938-4182-97F4-4259E168CAD8@neurotica.com> On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > So, I've been trying for a few days to get my VAX 7000/640 (currently > with only one processor, so a 610 I guess) to MOP boot into a VMS > cluster. > > I'm running OpenVMS hosted off SIMH, and have tried both 7.2 and 7.3, > and have successfully booted my VAX 4000/100 off the setup. I've also > successfully booted the firmware update utility (LFU) and the > file "ISL_LVAX_073.SYS" that comes on the install CD, through MOP. > > However, when I try to do a mop boot, the system just halts and says > boot failure: ... ... > CPU:0 Console entry reason: HALT instruction in kernel mode > > Entry PC: 006B6368 Entry PSL:041F0600 >>>> boot failure > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've tried it omitting the -flags part, and with -fl 1, but they all > give the same error. > > Anyone have any useful hints? Or, another VAX 7000 to try > repeating my > (failing) experiment on? Neither of my 7000s are set up at the moment, but I may be able to rig up some temporary power to give this a try over the weekend. Have you tried MOP-booting the machine from a *BSD host running mopd? I believe mopd can produce fairly verbose log messages that might be helpful, to see what's going on from the server's perspective. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 3 15:01:52 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:01:52 -0400 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems In-Reply-To: <21677313-1938-4182-97F4-4259E168CAD8@neurotica.com> References: <200708022207.37747.pat@computer-refuge.org> <21677313-1938-4182-97F4-4259E168CAD8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200708031601.52512.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 03 August 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Anyone have any useful hints? Or, another VAX 7000 to try > > repeating my > > (failing) experiment on? > > Neither of my 7000s are set up at the moment, but I may be able to > rig up some temporary power to give this a try over the weekend. > Have you tried MOP-booting the machine from a *BSD host running > mopd? I believe mopd can produce fairly verbose log messages that > might be helpful, to see what's going on from the server's > perspective. It looks like this is my problem... Page 4 of http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2978/SP2978PF.PDF "VAX-11/7xx, VAX 6000, VAX 7000, VAX 8xxx, VAX 9000, and VAX 10000 series systems require a sys- tem disk that is accessed via a local adapter or through a local CI or DSSI connection. These sys- tems cannot be configured to boot as satellite nodes." So it looks like some DSSI gear (easier) or a whole bunch of CI gear (harder) is going to be required to get this thing booting VMS. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 3 08:43:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:43:31 -0400 Subject: More on CUBIX - Was: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JM700DHGA2OLUD3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: More on CUBIX - Was: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:29:17 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> If the whole purpose of this exercise is to have an old 8-bit system so you >>> can program in hex and/or assembler, then you can download an emulator and >>> play around with it from there. If you mainly want to run things off the >>> various serial and parallel ports then something like the Micro-KIM would be >>> useful. > >There's an experience gained by building it yourself that simply can't be obtained >by playing with an emulator. Building a real/physical computer is a worthwhile >excercise and beneficial learning experience. Besides, friends and family are much >less impressed by a wave of the hand at a PC running an emulator with the statement >"I downloaded that!" then they are by a rats nest of wires, circuit boards, cables >and such and "I built it myself!" > There is magic in building it yourself however it's constructed be it emulator or hardware. The magic is that you have to understand it to build it. Simply assembling "it" does not provide it beyond the mechanical accomplishment though if you study the result there will be knowledge gained. <<>> >Another plug for my CUBIX system: > >The system comes with the following resident (runs on CUBIX itself) development >tools: > > 6809 Assembler > ASP - A simple high-level language/preprocessor for the assembler. > Debugger (breakpoints, single-step, disassembler, all the usual commands etc.) > Basic > Forth > Micro-APL > C compiler > 8080 simulator > Text editors / utilities / etc. > - Source is posted for all of the above except for the C compiler. > >I can also provide PC based cross development tools for the 6809 including: > > Hardware Debug Monitor (RAMless - needs only ROM to run) > Full-up ROMable 6809 monitor (Quite powerful) > 6809 Assembler > 6809 Disassembler (Does symbols, memory block types, comments etc.) > 6809 C compiler > 6809/CUBIX simulator/emulator - Lets you run 6809 code on your PC with ICE > type debugging capabilities - Also boots CUBIX, provides access to all > the resident tools etc. He may appear biased but those are powerful tools and unlike back when I built my Altair or the 8008 before that they are available! >I'm obviously biased, but I think it's a worthwhile system to build. Depending >on your skill/experience/time available, it should take anywhere from a day or >two to a few weeks to build it. What you get from the excercise is a unique >system that can actually do useful things, and the experience and satisfaction >of having created it with your own two hands. Having built it yourself, along >with the fact that I have released the source code means that you have the >opportunity to fully understand EVERYTHING about this system - down to the >tiniest wire, and the last byte of code - this is something that rarely happens >with modern computers. This system is simple enough that you shouldn't have >trouble following the design, yet powerful enough to be considered a "real" >computer. MY $0.02, great teaching tool, good for understanding hardware, excellent for a look at a straightforward OS example that is very usable. For an old hand PDP8/11, NS*DOS and CP/M style OSs CUBIX OS was a real eye opener to different ways files can be orgainized. <<<>>> >I should also point out that unlike most home-grown designs, the CUBIX system >is very well documented. Two of the three 360k diskettes that normally accompany >the system are filled with documentation. Over a dozen documents containing >more than 300 pages. Therein lies the greatest value. Even if you didn't build it there is a wealth of information that applies to any CPU/system. >What else can I say - all of the CUBIX material is available free on my site. >If people are interested, I could organize it into a separate "building a >CUBIX system" page with more information, additional PC tools and other related >material. Let me know if there is any interest. Having built one and meaning to spend more time with it it's a good project and in some respects less painful than doing a Z80 CP/M machine from the ground up. The key thing is that when operational like CP/M systems there is enough software to be useful. This is unlike the microKIM, CosmacELF style minimal systems where hand entered programs of a a few hundred bytes are it. The other feature is there is a CUBIX SIM and while building you can become familiar, read docs, look inside the code and develop software or other projects. Allison From marvin at rain.org Fri Aug 3 09:30:35 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:30:35 -0700 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <46B33C0B.D27D987B@rain.org> > > Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite > > someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? > Now, we could all type about this, discuss the finer points of > international trademark law and call each other names, or we could > push ahead, think of a rough location and discuss some of the > logistics and what would be needed to undertake VCF-UK. > > Simon Great comment!!! And as to what's in a name, try "recognition" since VCF has been going on for some 10 years. I would expect both Sellam and Hans to be *very* interested in getting a VCF UK going. Instead of putting up straw men to argue about, try working together ... it is a lot more effective! From mark.seeberger at argis.com Fri Aug 3 12:37:38 2007 From: mark.seeberger at argis.com (Seeberger, Mark) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:37:38 +0000 Subject: Acquired - IBM portable / IBM Model 5155 Message-ID: <4141398211C94E4D8A19B99270FA373E01A48901@EXCHVS.arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Do you still have this machine available? Mark Seeberger ====================================================== Hello, all: A friend of my sister-in-law gave me the original IBM portable (well, lugable) Model 5155 and RGB monitor. It's the dual drive model. There's a 37-pin DB connector on the back. External floppy?? I have to say, this equipment is in the best condition of any classic item I have ever acquired. Not a scratch, dent or cabinet fade. No dust either...anywhere. I know that the owner was anal retentive, but oh boy. I haven't tried yet, but it was just taken out of service after many years of use. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 16:07:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:07:12 -0400 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems In-Reply-To: <200708031601.52512.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200708022207.37747.pat@computer-refuge.org> <21677313-1938-4182-97F4-4259E168CAD8@neurotica.com> <200708031601.52512.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2007, at 4:01 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like this is my problem... > > Page 4 of http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2978/SP2978PF.PDF > > "VAX-11/7xx, VAX 6000, VAX 7000, VAX 8xxx, VAX > 9000, and VAX 10000 series systems require a sys- > tem disk that is accessed via a local adapter or > through a local CI or DSSI connection. These sys- > tems cannot be configured to boot as satellite nodes." Holy cow, I never knew that! 8-| Mine boot via CI from an HSJ50. > So it looks like some DSSI gear (easier) or a whole bunch of CI gear > (harder) is going to be required to get this thing booting VMS. Well I'll yank one of the DSSI adapters out of one of my 7000s over the weekend and get it out to you...you should have it up and running before the end of next week. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 3 16:30:34 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:30:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <46B37CDA.6060309@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <14608.65605.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> John Honniball wrote: Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Can we have a quick poll to see who lives > where? I'm about half-way up > Scotland on the left-hand side. Well, I'm south-east UK (East Anglia) a few miles from Cambridge. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Aug 3 16:48:09 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:48:09 -0700 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B67F3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Andrew Burton wrote: Well, I'm south-east UK (East Anglia) a few miles from Cambridge. Regards, Andrew B ------------------------ When I'm in England (4-5 months a year) I live in Colchester. Maybe we can get together next time I'm over - mid 2008. Billy From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 3 16:54:31 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:54:31 +0100 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems In-Reply-To: <200708031601.52512.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <007901c7d618$e647c1d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like this is my problem... > > Page 4 of http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2978/SP2978PF.PDF > > "VAX-11/7xx, VAX 6000, VAX 7000, VAX 8xxx, VAX > 9000, and VAX 10000 series systems require a sys- > tem disk that is accessed via a local adapter or > through a local CI or DSSI connection. These sys- > tems cannot be configured to boot as satellite nodes." I don't know what you problem is but I'm sure that I believed that booting a VAX 6000/7000 series system over the net was possible. Specifically, I think I used to do this with a VAX 6000 while at DEC. This suggests that I'm not completely crazy: http://64.223.189.234/node/285 A real manual suggests I'm not completely nuts too: http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$cddoc04mar21/decw$book/d32va233.p28.decw $book For booting from an InfoServer you have to pick the right image (i.e. "big" VAXen and "little" VAXen need different forms of TLC). You also say: >I've also > successfully booted the firmware update utility (LFU) and the file > "ISL_LVAX_073.SYS" that comes on the install CD, through MOP. So you have booted your VAX 7000 over MOP. Obviously I'm missing something ... Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 02/08/2007 14:22 From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 3 16:57:49 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:57:49 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B3329A.8050905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <005501c7d619$5679fc70$eb4df945@evan> What Jules said. >>> I think we just saw some Sellam humour, that's all :-) >>> Personally I don't see any gain whatsoever in *not* doing any event as a VCF. Why not draw on past VCF experiences and expertise from elsewhere? Why not use the VCF name and past successes as a way of helping to attract speakers / investors to a UK event? I suspect a lot of people will underestimate the time, money and effort needed to organise and promote something like this. Anything making that a little easier seems invaluable. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Aug 3 17:03:47 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:03:47 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B67F4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: At one time or another, cross-assemblers in FORTRAN were coded up for most of the early 8-bit chips. I believe that Intel even offered one as a standard product at one time. GI certainly did--I have it mentioned in their product brochure. The real problem would be locating one of these. In all likelihood, one last saw existence as a stretch of 9-track 1/2" tape. Cheers, Chuck --------------------- That was a standard practice back in the 1960's. I still have paper listings of a FORTRAN program to cross assemble CDC 160-A code on a 3300. And I think (been a few years) that I have the same cross assemblers for the 1604 and 924 machines. Later, there were 6600 FORTRAN cross assemblers for all the 3000 machines. My copies of these are on a 7 track tape which now resembles a solid disk of celluloid, sadly. The card decks went into the dumpster on the last move. But you are correct about 8 bit support using FORTRAN. I know I had paper listings for the 6502, 8080 and Z80 processors. And I think I still have the BASIC cross assembler for the 6502. Thinking about it, I also gave Al a paper tape for a 6502 assembler that I used on an Apple II with a teletype. I'll have to ask Al if he has had any luck archiving it. There were definitely FORTRAN cross assemblers for the Motorola chips (6800 &6809) floating around for years. But I don't think I ever saved any. Must look and see. Billy From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 17:35:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 18:35:02 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <575CFD9E-04CF-4A95-840C-50FA3A4966E1@neurotica.com> On Aug 3, 2007, at 12:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've been thinking about that, aren't there cross-assemblers out > there that > would do the job? I'd be interested in hearing about any that > would run > under linux, for the z80, 8085, or 6502 chips... I use zmac (see http://www.speccy.org/metalbrain/link-eng.htm) under OS X and Solaris for Z80 assembler work. It should build fine under Linux. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 16:56:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:56:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <46B26B97.4080904@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Aug 2, 7 05:41:11 pm Message-ID: > The other disadvantage is with a NEW scratch built computer is the software tools > needed like a assembler. If you're talking about designing a new processor (and thus an instruction set)_, I agree. But if you;re using a fairly common microprocessor, then I am sure you can find some kind of assemblre for it (to run under an emulator for a microcomputer based on that procrssor if need be). I rememebr using the TRS-80 EDTASM program to assemble bits of code for my first Z80-based homebrew, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:00:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:00:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070802150011.060f6790@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 2, 7 03:31:03 pm Message-ID: > I've never been to the good ol' UK, so with the talk of "Northern England" > I just thought it was the name of a town in the region. > > After all, if you're looking for something a bit more "outworldly" I've > been to Vulcan a couple of times! If we stick with the North of England for the moment, a place with a very appropriate name for holding a VCF (althoguh, I suspect, with no suitable venue fro such an event) would be 'Hackforth'. To answer another question in this thread, I am in England (south-west London, near Richmond). I could only contemplate coming to such an event if it was held in the Greater London area (actually, London Bus Pass area, which is slightly larger). And having looked for suitable venues some years back for such an event with an eccentric friend of mine, we came to the conclusion that suitable rooms (large, solid floor that they didn't main us putting 19" racks on, enough power capacity for running a few minis) werre very few and far between, and those we did find were too expensive, based onthe number of people we expected to attend. I usspect such venues may be cheaper out of London, but then I wouldn't attend. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:06:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:06:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708030023.16106.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 3, 7 00:23:14 am Message-ID: > > And learn to do it 'by hand', not just using CAD tools. The latter are > > undoubtedly very useful, but knowing how to do things by hand will let > > you know when said CAD systems have made a right mess of your design. > > Over and over again I see newbies struggling with what they're trying to = > do=20 > and what the simulation is telling them should be happening, which isn't= > =20 > necessarily all that connected to the real world. CAD tools are undobtedly very useful and powerful if used correctly. But that last qualifier is important ;-). My view is that the use of such tools increases the 'difference' between good and bad designers, they make good designers (who know how to use them, and not to trust everything the simulator says!) even better. And they make poor designers even worse, bexause such people fiddle on the simulator until it seems to work, not rralsing the result probably won't work in practice, or any least won't work reliably. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:26:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:26:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-412 Jumpers In-Reply-To: <941907.68380.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from "silvercreekvalley" at Aug 3, 7 09:21:28 am Message-ID: > > I'm just trying to figure out the jumper settings > on a ST-412 drive. I've read the manual and it sort > of helps, but its somewhat obtuse in style. I've read the OEM manual on Bitsacers, I've also dug out the schemaitcs in the IBM Techref. There are some differences (!), but the ones you want to change all agree. > > I have two drives which are taken from working > PDP 11/23's - they both have the same setting on > the jumper block. > > The jumper block is a 16 pin DIL socket, with a > 14 pin DIL plug inserted. The plug has 7 metal > bars, 3 of which are open circuit, the rest > are closed. > > Working from the connector end of the PCB, the > > first bar - open > second bar - open > third bar - closed > fourth bar - open > fifth bar - closed > sixth bar - closed > seventh bar - closed > > Looking in the manual the first bar would persumably > be written as 8-9, the second as 7-10 etc? YEs. Number the pins like a 16 pin DIL IC (whcih is, after all, what it is). first bar - open 8-9 second bar - open 7-10 third bar - closed 6-11 fourth bar - open 5-12 fifth bar - closed 4-13 sixth bar - closed 3-14 seventh bar - closed 2-15 eight line -- Nonexistant 1-16 OK, now for the defintions : 1-16 : 'Multiplezed'. Shorting this enables the drive at all times, for controllers with a separate control cable to each drive. The PERQ is not like this, this must be OPEN 2-15, 3-14, 4-13 : The defition of these seems to depend on the PCB version (at least if the schematics can be beleived). They may enable diagnostic modes, etc, when open. For normal operation, leave them alone, which both from your exisitng jumper block and from the schemaitcs, would be all closed 5-12 : DS4 6-11 : DS3 7-10 : DS2 8-9 : DS1 Those 4 jumpers control the drive select (DS). Normally one is closed, all the rest are open. In yuor case, 6-11 is closed, meaning the drivce is set to DS3 (normal for a PDP11?) You want ot cut that jumper and bridge 8-9 What I'd do is get one of the new-type tiny DIP switches that's the same size as an IC package (not the old 'boxy' type), and fit that in place of the jumper block. Yop can then flip the switches to set the DS line, etc) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:29:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:29:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-412 Jumpers In-Reply-To: <200708031327.02002.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 3, 7 01:27:01 pm Message-ID: > > On Friday 03 August 2007 12:21, silvercreekvalley wrote: > > The jumper block is a 16 pin DIL socket, with a > > 14 pin DIL plug inserted. The plug has 7 metal > > bars, 3 of which are open circuit, the rest > > are closed. > > Those things are one-time use, and annoying. I've successfully replaced= You mean you'd not soldered bits of wire-wrap wire across open bars to close them again? I don;'t recomend it, but I did do it once in an emergency... I agre e thye're annoying -- very. I normally replace them either with a DIP switch, as you do, (there are osme now which are no larger than an IC, much lower profile than the older ones) oe with a header plug that I solder jumpers across. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:13:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:13:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0708021552m260e2457m318b51ab588cce1b@mail.gmail.com> from "Pete Edwards" at Aug 2, 7 11:52:19 pm Message-ID: > I've just got to a major milestone on a 6502 based prototype (ie it actually > runs my code :) and I've got to say I felt I'd actually achieved something Well done! > special after debugging with nowt but a meter and led+resistor probe(s). > Being so restricted in the tools I had really made me *think* about what to > test and the end result is that I know exactly how the thing works. This is true, and it's one reason for knowing how to use simple test gear effectively. I have debugged a lot of things that way, watching the brightness ot the LED to see if siagnal is stuck high, 50-50 (possibly a clock waveform) or something else :-) On the other hand, I once spend a sunday afternoon tracing a non-fault in the memory arbitration circuitry of a Whitechapel MG1, using a simple logic probe. I nearly went sane (!). The next day I sent off almost all the money I had and bought a LogicDart.... The reason I san non-fault is that the thing reported a multi-bit DRAM failure, and it appeared the CPU wasn't finding any RAM at all. That's why I thoguht it was a control/arbitration problem, not a memory chip failure. In fact, there was no fault at all. The boot ROM needed more RAM than was on the mainboard -- IIRC it needed a pair of memory expansion boards too. Nowehere was this mentioned... > Sorry Tony, but I was really glad I was working on a breadboard! Why? I would have thought having known-good connections and low-impedance power and ground connections (neither of which tends to be the case on a breadboard) would be very helpful in only having to find the _real_ faults. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 17:36:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:36:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <46B37261.2070909@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 3, 7 07:22:25 pm Message-ID: > Hmm, looks like the theory that most of the UK vintage computer enthusiasts > are in the North is true then. Maybe it's something in the water :P I suspect it's more likely to be that houses are cheaer outside London. and classic computer enthusiasts (no, make that programmers, engineers, scientists) are not well-paid over here. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 18:32:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:32:36 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <575CFD9E-04CF-4A95-840C-50FA3A4966E1@neurotica.com> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au>, <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net>, <575CFD9E-04CF-4A95-840C-50FA3A4966E1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B358A4.28503.970309D@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2007 at 18:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > I use zmac (see http://www.speccy.org/metalbrain/link-eng.htm) > under OS X and Solaris for Z80 assembler work. It should build fine > under Linux. I think I have a few of the Avocet cross-assemblers. For projects of any size, however, it's best that you have not only a cross-assembler that outputs relocatable code, but a linker/loader to handle the job of resolving inter-module references and performing relocation. Cheers, Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Aug 3 18:33:28 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 00:33:28 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070802150011.060f6790@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> On 03/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > some years back for such an event with an eccentric friend of mine, we > came to the conclusion that suitable rooms (large, solid floor that they > didn't main us putting 19" racks on, enough power capacity for running a > few minis) werre very few and far between, and those we did find were too > expensive, based onthe number of people we expected to attend. > > I usspect such venues may be cheaper out of London, but then I wouldn't > attend. > I had a couple of years experience in the Dog Show scene, some time back, and found that sports halls (school, college and stand-alone) tended to get used a lot. They ranged from fairly big to Huge, and had solid floors. For a VCF, though, power might be an issue - sockets were obviously not a priority in most of their designs.... I got the impression that they were usually, at least at the time, fairly cheap to hire, From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 18:43:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:43:06 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0708021552m260e2457m318b51ab588cce1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, , <11c909eb0708021552m260e2457m318b51ab588cce1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B35B1A.4390.979CBD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2007 at 23:52, Pete Edwards wrote: > I've just got to a major milestone on a 6502 based prototype (ie it > actually runs my code :) and I've got to say I felt I'd actually > achieved something special after debugging with nowt but a meter and > led+resistor probe(s). Good job! It's surprising how far one can get without a scope or a logic analyzer. I'd recommend, though, that you put together a "pulse sniffer"--little more than a one-shot driving an LED to "stretch" pulses so they're easily visible. Often, a simple LED level indicator on a pulsing line won't show a thing, leaving you to scratch your head and wonder what you missed. You can build one of these things into a Magic Marker case with a nice sharp probe on the tip. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 3 18:58:03 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 19:58:03 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01c7d62a$22dbd030$eb4df945@evan> I'm not sure what Hans does in Germany, but here in the States, most of the previous VCF locations were obtained because someone knew someone ... for example Sellam has close contacts (and is a former employee) of the museum in Silicon Valley; Pat is part of the Perdue U. community; and here in NJ we just used the event room(s) at the museum where our user group is based. I think once or twice Sellam paid for an event room in a hotel, but that was 10 years ago. Another year, before my user group (MARCH), VCF East was at a local (Boston) campus of Sun Micro which we got use of through some contacts there. The point is -- find out who's willing to help; then go off-list and put all of your brains together -- and you'll find a venue of some sort. Does not have to be anything fancy. And whoever takes the lead among you, make sure to ask Sellam is HE has possible locations out there. You may be surprised. -----Original Message----- From: Rob [mailto:robert at irrelevant.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 7:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK VCF? On 03/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > some years back for such an event with an eccentric friend of mine, we > came to the conclusion that suitable rooms (large, solid floor that they > didn't main us putting 19" racks on, enough power capacity for running a > few minis) werre very few and far between, and those we did find were too > expensive, based onthe number of people we expected to attend. > > I usspect such venues may be cheaper out of London, but then I wouldn't > attend. > I had a couple of years experience in the Dog Show scene, some time back, and found that sports halls (school, college and stand-alone) tended to get used a lot. They ranged from fairly big to Huge, and had solid floors. For a VCF, though, power might be an issue - sockets were obviously not a priority in most of their designs.... I got the impression that they were usually, at least at the time, fairly cheap to hire, From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 19:30:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:30:44 -0700 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <000d01c7d62a$22dbd030$eb4df945@evan> References: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com>, <000d01c7d62a$22dbd030$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <46B36644.11003.9A56830@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2007 at 19:58, Evan Koblentz wrote: > the museum in Silicon Valley; Pat is part of the Perdue U. community; As a former Boilermaker, I resent the implication! Perdue sells raw bits of dead chickens; Purdue is a institution in a certain Indiana town, where, until recently, the Ku Klux Klan has been known to hold recruitment rallies. What was that about chicken again? Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 3 19:38:08 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:38:08 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B36644.11003.9A56830@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001e01c7d62f$bbcf7210$eb4df945@evan> LOL, sorry (about the spelling AND that you went to school where the KKK is active!) -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 8:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: UK VCF? On 3 Aug 2007 at 19:58, Evan Koblentz wrote: > the museum in Silicon Valley; Pat is part of the Perdue U. community; As a former Boilermaker, I resent the implication! Perdue sells raw bits of dead chickens; Purdue is a institution in a certain Indiana town, where, until recently, the Ku Klux Klan has been known to hold recruitment rallies. What was that about chicken again? Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 3 19:42:28 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:42:28 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B32BF1.7070806@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200708040042.l740gZId000516@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:21:53 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >Sellam's not actually subscribed to this list, so griping about him is >rather pointless anyway. If Sellam is not on this list, how is it that he has posted to the list twice on this subject to the list just yesterday? I agree griping about him is rather pointless, but to claim he is not on the list is misleading. PS:Chuck Guzis wrote: "until recently, the Ku Klux Klan has been known to hold recruitment rallies." When did they stop driving over from Kokomo ? It must have been about the time Gas hit $3 a gallon :-) Back under my rock .... From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 3 19:50:28 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:50:28 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708040042.l740gZId000516@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002201c7d631$74e27c10$eb4df945@evan> Sellam doesn't subscribe, but he knows about this thread, and Jay allows non-members to post if there is a good reason. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Bradlee [mailto:caveguy at sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 8:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK VCF? On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:21:53 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >Sellam's not actually subscribed to this list, so griping about him is >rather pointless anyway. If Sellam is not on this list, how is it that he has posted to the list twice on this subject to the list just yesterday? I agree griping about him is rather pointless, but to claim he is not on the list is misleading. PS:Chuck Guzis wrote: "until recently, the Ku Klux Klan has been known to hold recruitment rallies." When did they stop driving over from Kokomo ? It must have been about the time Gas hit $3 a gallon :-) Back under my rock .... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 3 19:56:42 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:56:42 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B3CECA.1070908@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > If you're talking about designing a new processor (and thus an instruction > set)_, I agree. But if you;re using a fairly common microprocessor, then > I am sure you can find some kind of assemblre for it (to run under an > emulator for a microcomputer based on that procrssor if need be). But on this list you get but find out other machines than the standard 8080/Z80 6502/6800 crop of cpu chips. Since you can't find the chips any more from other less common computer systems I don't expect the software is out there at all. Ben alias woodelf. PS. (wish list)Can the Cubix 6809 system run the open source of OS/9? That would make a nice homebrew with a small IDE drive. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 3 20:44:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 02:44:11 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) References: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org><781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <004801c7d638$f52da370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? I'm located in Birmingham. TTFN - Pete. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 3 20:43:58 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:43:58 -0400 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems In-Reply-To: <007901c7d618$e647c1d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <007901c7d618$e647c1d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200708032143.58102.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 03 August 2007 17:54, Antonio Carlini wrote: > You also say: > >I've also > > successfully booted the firmware update utility (LFU) and the file > > "ISL_LVAX_073.SYS" that comes on the install CD, through MOP. > > So you have booted your VAX 7000 over MOP. > > Obviously I'm missing something ... Yes, the machine can mop boot, but it can't be mop booted as a satellite node of a vaxcluster.. it has to have local/shared disk over CI or DSSI. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 21:14:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:14:21 -0400 Subject: Help needed...VAX 7000 mop booting problems In-Reply-To: <200708031601.52512.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200708022207.37747.pat@computer-refuge.org> <21677313-1938-4182-97F4-4259E168CAD8@neurotica.com> <200708031601.52512.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46B3E0FD.70007@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 03 August 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> Anyone have any useful hints? Or, another VAX 7000 to try >>> repeating my >>> (failing) experiment on? >> Neither of my 7000s are set up at the moment, but I may be able to >> rig up some temporary power to give this a try over the weekend. >> Have you tried MOP-booting the machine from a *BSD host running >> mopd? I believe mopd can produce fairly verbose log messages that >> might be helpful, to see what's going on from the server's >> perspective. > > It looks like this is my problem... > > Page 4 of http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2978/SP2978PF.PDF > > "VAX-11/7xx, VAX 6000, VAX 7000, VAX 8xxx, VAX > 9000, and VAX 10000 series systems require a sys- > tem disk that is accessed via a local adapter or > through a local CI or DSSI connection. These sys- > tems cannot be configured to boot as satellite nodes." > > So it looks like some DSSI gear (easier) or a whole bunch of CI gear > (harder) is going to be required to get this thing booting VMS. That's weird, because I've *definitely* booted a VAX 6610 from a cluster using mop. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 3 21:23:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:23:02 -0500 Subject: UK VCF? References: <002201c7d631$74e27c10$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <001601c7d63e$62ce1d60$6600a8c0@JWEST> This variant of this thread serves no purpose. Kill it please. Suggestion: Less posturing about rights and personalities, more posting about classic computers and supporting the growth of the hobby. Perhaps if we spent more time discussing having a UK "event", and less time about personalities and posturing - an "event" would have already been organized. Jay West PS - it's rather obvious to list regulars that Sellam does read this list from time to time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 7:50 PM Subject: RE: UK VCF? > Sellam doesn't subscribe, but he knows about this thread, and Jay allows > non-members to post if there is a good reason. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Bradlee [mailto:caveguy at sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 8:42 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: UK VCF? > > On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:21:53 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >>Sellam's not actually subscribed to this list, so griping about him is >>rather pointless anyway. > > If Sellam is not on this list, how is it that he has posted to the list > twice on this subject to the list just yesterday? > I agree griping about him is rather pointless, but to claim he is not on > the list is misleading. > > PS:Chuck Guzis wrote: "until recently, the Ku Klux Klan has been known > to hold recruitment rallies." > When did they stop driving over from Kokomo ? It must have been about > the time Gas hit $3 a gallon :-) > > Back under my rock .... > > > > > > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 3 21:32:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 03:32:11 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org><433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk><20070803113253.GA8291@discordance.org.uk> Message-ID: <00c901c7d63f$aaad3430$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> > And here! > > Andy P. And another.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 3 21:46:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 03:46:13 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070802150011.060f6790@mail.30below.com> <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c7d641$9f96b1a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I had a couple of years experience in the Dog Show scene, >some time back, and found that sports halls (school, college >and stand-alone) tended to get used a lot.... Quite a few amateur radio rallies that I've attended have been held at such venues, one (the Derby rally ISTR) even used to be held IN a school! Might be worth talking to the organisers of such events? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 3 22:18:23 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 04:18:23 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, , <11c909eb0708021552m260e2457m318b51ab588cce1b@mail.gmail.com> <46B35B1A.4390.979CBD0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <014901c7d646$1e786550$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....It's surprising how far one can get without a scope >or a logic analyzer. I'd recommend, though, that you put >together a "pulse sniffer"--little more than a one-shot >driving an LED to "stretch" pulses.... > You can build one of these things into a Magic Marker case >with a nice sharp probe on the tip. What, like a logic probe...? I don't actually have a logic analyser myself (annoyingly), and tend to reach for my logic probe long before I resort to digging out my 'scope. I find mine indispensible. If the OP is in the UK, then Maplins do a nice one for ?15 (which is less than I paid for mine back in 1980). TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 22:41:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:41:57 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <014901c7d646$1e786550$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <014901c7d646$1e786550$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2007 at 4:18, Ensor wrote: > What, like a logic probe...? I figured if the OP was using an LED as a logic probe, then he might not want to throw his filthy lucre after a commercial probe. It's easy enough to toss one together out of hellbox detritus. > I don't actually have a logic analyser myself (annoyingly), and tend to > reach for my logic probe long before I resort to digging out my 'scope. I > find mine indispensible. Same here; rather than set up a scope just to see if a line is wiggling, a logic probe is much easier. > If the OP is in the UK, then Maplins do a nice one for ?15 (which is less > than I paid for mine back in 1980). Radio Shack used to offer one for a reasonable price, but no longer... Cheers, Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 23:07:39 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 00:07:39 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <014901c7d646$1e786550$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into everything now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU such as a Z80 or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will likely need an EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern PC? On 8/3/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Aug 2007 at 4:18, Ensor wrote: > > > What, like a logic probe...? > > I figured if the OP was using an LED as a logic probe, then he might > not want to throw his filthy lucre after a commercial probe. It's > easy enough to toss one together out of hellbox detritus. > > > I don't actually have a logic analyser myself (annoyingly), and tend to > > reach for my logic probe long before I resort to digging out my 'scope. > I > > find mine indispensible. > > Same here; rather than set up a scope just to see if a line is > wiggling, a logic probe is much easier. > > > If the OP is in the UK, then Maplins do a nice one for ?15 (which is > less > > than I paid for mine back in 1980). > > Radio Shack used to offer one for a reasonable price, but no > longer... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 4 00:48:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:48:01 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com>, <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2007 at 0:07, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into everything > now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU such as a Z80 > or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will likely need an > EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern PC? Believe it or not, they're still being made. Here's one that works with a PC parallel port: http://www.batronix.com/electronic/circuits/eeprommer.shtml Smallest one seems to be a 2764, but still, not too bad for a new unit. Cheers, Chuck From warren at databasics.us Sat Aug 4 01:09:04 2007 From: warren at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 02:09:04 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B36644.11003.9A56830@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> , <000d01c7d62a$22dbd030$eb4df945@evan> <46B36644.11003.9A56830@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1186207744.10166.19.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 17:30 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What was that about chicken again? Ah, the Perdue Broilermakers.... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe warren at databasics.us From river at zip.com.au Sat Aug 4 01:21:09 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 16:21:09 +1000 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708032348.l73NlZvD083288@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070804062109.9BCE827412@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Hi, There's plenty of free x-assemblers you can find on the net. I run x-assemblers for 8080/85, 8086/88, 6800, 6809, Z80, 2650, SC/MP and 68000. They all run on a Windows box. I use two old PCs for my development, one is a 166Mhz Pentium running Win98 and the other is a 486SX (25Mhz) running Win3.1. Those machines can run all the x-assemblers and editors necessary for developing code for most old 8-bit processors. If I need to get serious and require some ICE then I have an Intel MDS220 and an Intel MDS IV, which can do 8080 and 8085 ICE, respectively. You can find basic processor schematics on the net and do your initial build on some breadboard. Depending on the complexity, my final build is usually wire-wrapped or soldered on veroboard. Most of the x-assemblers will create an Intel Hex object code file, and you program your home-brew system to be able to download these files and that's how you load code into your system. Of course, unless you have a front panel, you'll need to create a boot EPROM, so access to an EPROM burner is required. I use an old Microprofessor MFP-1P, which has the EPROM burning board connected and it burns 2516, 2716, 2532, 2732, 2732A and 2764 chips - which is all I use on my home-brew systems. One of the projects I am intending to do is to build a dedicated EPROM burner, using some old 8-bit processor that can program the above chips as well as the 2708. Seeyuzz River From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 4 01:42:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:42:11 -0700 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186207744.10166.19.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com>, <46B36644.11003.9A56830@cclist.sydex.com>, <1186207744.10166.19.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <46B3BD53.28747.AF9792A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2007 at 2:09, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Ah, the Perdue Broilermakers.... Hmmm. And here I was expecting someone to come back with "Aw, kwitcher Monon..." -Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 3 18:34:59 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 00:34:59 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023108@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I'm located about 50 miles west of London (near the (in)famous Greenham Common.) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: 03 August 2007 11:32 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 10:42 +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > I see. Probably the biggest concentration of these in the UK is still > central London, though I'm out of touch with that side of things. I got the impression that the bulk of the UK classic computing community was around the Midlands and north, with a few exceptions. Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? I'm about half-way up Scotland on the left-hand side. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 3 18:46:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 00:46:32 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023109@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> UK Pioneers? If it were not for the fact that they are in permanent off line storage. Alan Turing and Tommy Flowers. Or some of the LEO people - (5000 valves and 33kW of heat to get rid of) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 03 August 2007 10:42 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) > > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years >> time, maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, >> without using the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK >> with an interest in old computers and hopefully a few who would want >> to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and about how much space, >> if any would they want? > > > My thoughts were developing along the same lines, the key question > surely is numbers. 7 replies so far from the UK. > How many do we think would attend, and could some core events be lined > up to to ensure a worthwhile experience? I'm thinking here of the > datacentre visits that (I think) were run from VCF Europe last year I see. Probably the biggest concentration of these in the UK is still central London, though I'm out of touch with that side of things. > and the involvement of industry alumni that the US events have > enjoyed. Many of the real pioneers (who are still alive) are in the Computer Conservation Society. Maybe we could involve them, I am a member but I don't attend meetings (except one as a speaker). > It's not like we don't have a few home-grown pioneers - Clive Sinclair > and various Acorn people spring to mind. Ah, you're talking more modern pioneers, ones of the microprocessor era. Yes indeed. Alan Sugar's probably free now :-) Just kidding. Do we have any contacts or ideas on how to contact them? Isn't it Sir Clive now by the way, we don't want to put anyone's nose out of joint from the first contact. Roger. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 3 18:54:44 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 00:54:44 +0100 Subject: Victor V286C Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902310A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I have the system unit for a Victor V286C PC manufactured in 1991. Its in really nice condition. Keyboard and mouse are no problem. However the display is a different matter. It has a nine pin display connector which would make it a CGA ,MGA or Hercules output. Anybody any ideas as to where I might find a matching monitor? Rod Smallwood From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 4 06:42:40 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:42:40 -0500 Subject: More on CUBIX - Was: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B31B01.2080008@mdrconsult.com> References: <200708031132.l73BWmRY031939@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200708041046.l74AkDPo031802@hosting.monisys.ca> > > What else can I say - all of the CUBIX material is available free on my site. > > If people are interested, I could organize it into a separate "building a > > CUBIX system" page with more information, additional PC tools and other related > > material. Let me know if there is any interest. > > [waves hands wildly] > > Yes, I'm most definitely interested. Short version is that I keep > coming back to that page with lust in my heart. Long-winded explanation > follows if you're bored. Ok - I'm terribly busy at the moment, but over the next few months I'll try and organize some material for a "build your own classic computer" section on my site. The number of people who express interest will determine to some extent how agressively I try and make time for it... There's a few changes I should probably make to the design as well. It was originally designed with a 74138 as the primary memory decoder with an 8K (2764) EPROM at the top, 8K of I/O space at the bottom, and 6 6264 8K SRAM chips for 48k of main memory. Nowadays it would make more sense to use bigger SRAMs (at least 32k) and moving the I/O to the top would simplify decoding. I could also shrink the area reserved for I/O and increase system memory. Probably also time to update the design to use a 3.5" diskette drive. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 4 06:48:45 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:48:45 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <46B3CECA.1070908@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <200708041052.l74AqH2R000325@hosting.monisys.ca> > PS. (wish list)Can the Cubix 6809 system run the open source of OS/9? That would make > a nice homebrew with a small IDE drive. Never really "got into" OS-9, however assuming it's reasonably portable, I can't see why it wouldn't - The hardware of my design is very simple. If OS/9 doesn't already have drivers for the 765 FDC you would have to write them (use the Cubix ones as an example). But really It's not tied to CUBIX, it's a general 6809 design -+ just tweak it to meet any particular OS/9 needs. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 4 06:51:51 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:51:51 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708041055.l74AtOaU000791@hosting.monisys.ca> > Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into everything > now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU such as a Z80 > or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will likely need an > EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern PC? The logic needed to program a modern EPROM (from 2716 onward) is pretty simple and straight-forward. A simple EPROM programmer is another useful and easy to build project. I have a design with software somewhere on my commercial site - it's more than you need, with a keypad/display so that it can run stand-alone, but you could borrow the programming algorithms from it (or just read the data sheets) to build up a simple PC controlled device. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 4 09:37:25 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:37:25 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708041055.l74AtOaU000791@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: >From: "Dave Dunfield" > > > Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into >everything > > now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU such as a >Z80 > > or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will likely need an > > EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern PC? > >The logic needed to program a modern EPROM (from 2716 onward) is pretty >simple and straight-forward. A simple EPROM programmer is another useful >and easy to build project. I have a design with software somewhere on my >commercial site - it's more than you need, with a keypad/display so that >it can run stand-alone, but you could borrow the programming algorithms >from it (or just read the data sheets) to build up a simple PC controlled >device. > Hi What I'd really like is information on programming some of the older Altera eprom logic arrays. Since these are obsolete, the software and hardware to program these is no longer supported. These are potentially great experimenter devices. With out and specs on programming they are useless. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel. http://travel.msn.com/Articles/aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001 From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 4 10:33:43 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Hi > What I'd really like is information on programming some of the older > Altera eprom logic arrays. Since these are obsolete, the software > and hardware to program these is no longer supported. > These are potentially great experimenter devices. With out and > specs on programming they are useless. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel. > http://travel.msn.com/Articles/aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001 > We used to use those quite a bit, at least EP320's and EP900's. I know that some generic programmers can program them, so I dont think the programming info was proprietary, not sure about the 'fuse maps'. The Altera software system used a funny source language (.ADF files if those brain cells are still working right). These days I'd just use a XC95NNXL and have 5V tolerance and in circuit JTAG programmability, (and not have to wait for the UV ERASE every time I make a mistake) Peter Wallace From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 4 06:33:55 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:33:55 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JM8003BXYQCRXCB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:41:57 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4 Aug 2007 at 4:18, Ensor wrote: > >> What, like a logic probe...? > >I figured if the OP was using an LED as a logic probe, then he might >not want to throw his filthy lucre after a commercial probe. It's >easy enough to toss one together out of hellbox detritus. > >> I don't actually have a logic analyser myself (annoyingly), and tend to >> reach for my logic probe long before I resort to digging out my 'scope. I >> find mine indispensible. > >Same here; rather than set up a scope just to see if a line is >wiggling, a logic probe is much easier. on my bench I have a several multimeters [digital and analog], scope, a pc based logic analyser and a logic proble. the onder they are used generally puts the logic analyser last right after the scope. >> If the OP is in the UK, then Maplins do a nice one for ?15 (which is less >> than I paid for mine back in 1980). > >Radio Shack used to offer one for a reasonable price, but no >longer... I have one of those and it works ok, I also have one that responds to really fast pulses. Allison From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 11:07:43 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 17:07:43 +0100 Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? In-Reply-To: <46895A8A.7050506@bitsavers.org> References: <46895A8A.7050506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <575131af0708040907i341d397fs69c043af0b08401d@mail.gmail.com> On 02/07/07, Al Kossow wrote: > Apple's first > attempt at a RISC Apple II (Moebius). Ooooh. Could you expand upon that, at all? -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 11:16:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 17:16:25 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <710794.48293.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46853F7F.3000408@garlic.com> <710794.48293.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708040916qb5d6178y3d104b1eed6e80b8@mail.gmail.com> On 30/06/07, Chris M wrote: > I saw *my* first piece of Transmeta hardware, some > box, on ePay the other day. Don't ask me the details, > I don't even think I "watched" the auction. That surprises me! They weren't that uncommon. I've used a Transmeta Sony Vaio; nice little machine. Interesting to watch it playing video: the first few frames are really slow while the code-morphing software optimises the chunk of translated code doing the playback, then it accelerates and plays at full speed. I always thought the Crusoe was a very interesting chip that was massively under-exploited. For starters, it was only emulating x86 in software, it wasn't /remotely/ x86-compatible. So, in principle, there was no reason one couldn't write code-morphing firmware for any comparable CPU: 68040 or 68060, for instance. It should have beaten a pure software emulation hollow for performance at the time, and still would beat a modern chip in terms of power efficiency, I'd think. Not much point emulating something for which there was current shipping hardware, like PowerPC, but it could have effectively resurrected a number of "obsolete" 32-bit architectures. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 11:30:30 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 17:30:30 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708040930u307d999at521a6102adb52039@mail.gmail.com> On 29/06/07, Roger Pugh wrote: > > People don't want to be bothered to convert their recipes into units of > > kilograms and liters, among other excuses. The power of resistance to > > change should seem especially obvious to anyone that reads this mailing > > list. : > > Try Ireland (eire) for size.. > > > the speed limits and distances are in Kilometers, the cars indicate > mile per hour.. go figure that for > consistency... Well, true, but then, they only changed the speed limits in the last 2 or 3 years or so. The snag they face is that as a small country that shares much with Great Britain, such as driving on the left, they're not a big enough import market for foreign car makers to produce a special version, with UK-oriented controls but EU SI instrumentation. But it will probably come in time. At some point, the now largely SI-based UK will have to adopt SI speed limits and so forth. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 4 12:07:27 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:07:27 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0708040930u307d999at521a6102adb52039@mail.gmail.com> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> <575131af0708040930u307d999at521a6102adb52039@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > But it will probably come in time. At some point, the now largely > SI-based UK will have to adopt SI speed limits and so forth. I thought you all traveled by rail over there. :) Well one advantage VCF-UK would have up north I would hope is good automobile and rail access. Ben alias woodelf. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 13:14:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708040916qb5d6178y3d104b1eed6e80b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <450945.78206.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Liam Proven wrote: > On 30/06/07, Chris M wrote: > > > I saw *my* first piece of Transmeta hardware, > some > > box, on ePay the other day. Don't ask me the > details, > > I don't even think I "watched" the auction. > > That surprises me! I wasn't looking mind you :) > They weren't that uncommon. I've > used a Transmeta > Sony Vaio; nice little machine. Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense that some of the diminutive Vaios used Transmeta hardware. My Vaio (currently in suspended animation :( ), is a big honker. 8 or 9 lbs. iirc. I've been told the problem might just be a solder crack. Here's hoping... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 13:20:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <727474.18935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > > But it will probably come in time. At some point, > the now largely > > SI-based UK will have to adopt SI speed limits and > so forth. > > I thought you all traveled by rail over there. :) > Well one advantage VCF-UK would have up north I > would hope is > good automobile and rail access. > Ben alias woodelf. Do the "bobbies" still use bikes in the rural areas LOL. And let's not get caught up on terminology. I do realize the useage has shifted recently... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 13:23:19 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:23:19 -0500 Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <769341.73846.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <004501c7cb2c$95c195c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <769341.73846.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708041123s7c061bd2r2ca4162fa8b7d9d1@mail.gmail.com> If anyone is looking for a parts machine or a restore project, I've listed my 9000 on the 'bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270151858695 Starting at $1! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 13:25:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Victor V286C In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902310A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <445286.57141.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I have the system unit for a Victor V286C PC > manufactured in > 1991. Its in really nice condition. > Keyboard and mouse are no problem. However the > display is a different > matter. It has a nine pin > display connector which would make it a CGA ,MGA or > Hercules output. > > Anybody any ideas as to where I might find a > matching monitor? the original V286 came out about 1987 roughly. I don't now what the "c" denotes. I have the 8088 version, the VPC II. Lots of asics and stuph inside blech. As to the monitor - ePay, classifieds, etc. Trying running an ad in a newspaper or smaller publication. Is there a UK equivalent of Craigslist? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 13:37:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Whimper" newsletter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <877814.23653.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Rich...I haven't looked, but the only issue on the net I know of is on Jeff Hellige's site (maybe he's got more?). Yes information is a little hard to get to there, but keep plugging, you'll find it. The guys old po box is on it as I recall, so maybe you can try looking him up. He was located in Connecticut, not too far from the city (Fairfield County maybe). The Whimper wasn't run by someone who was terribly techie, nor did he pretend to be. There was some good info in there, no doubt. Try posting on an appropriate Usenet group (IIRC alt.folklore.comp or something close LOL). There's bound to be a pile of these things out there somewhere. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From davis at saw.net Sat Aug 4 13:47:53 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:47:53 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <450945.78206.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <450945.78206.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B4C9D9.4060904@saw.net> Chris M wrote: > --- Liam Proven wrote: > > >> On 30/06/07, Chris M wrote: >> >> >>> I saw *my* first piece of Transmeta hardware, >>> >> some >> >>> box, on ePay the other day. Don't ask me the >>> >> details, >> >>> I don't even think I "watched" the auction. >>> >> That surprises me! >> > > I wasn't looking mind you :) > > >> They weren't that uncommon. I've >> used a Transmeta >> Sony Vaio; nice little machine. >> > > Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense that > some of the diminutive Vaios used Transmeta hardware. > My Vaio (currently in suspended animation :( ), is a > big honker. 8 or 9 lbs. iirc. > I've been told the problem might just be a solder > crack. Here's hoping... > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > Sounds like you have the same vaio I have. Perhaps it's a GRX series? Beautiful, 16" 1600*1200 screen, weighs a ton, but bad design on the simm sockets. I'm going to take mine to work where I have the proper tools to do a rework. It's almost on topic, but I'm not waiting 3 years to reply. BTW: their was a movement for a class action lawsuit, but I don't think it ever got off the ground. Jim. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 13:51:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <006101c7d3c9$f295f6b0$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <764002.31545.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> hey Dan...it goes w/the territory. Instead of encouraging an endeavor, the babies have to fight over silly notions of trademark and whatever. Who's to say a UK version of *CF couldn't be called the Classic Computer Extravaganza or whatever the frig. Yes it is rather nauseating (and uh kind of puzzling)to hear, in the same sentence, that someone doesn't have the funds/wherewithal to organize such an event, yet when one happens to come along, he'll do everything he can to squelch it. Truly unbelievable. I say some of you enterprising Brits should put on a show, and do it now, this year. Start small. It'll build it's own momentum. Better yet why not make it an international event and collaborate w/the mainlanders. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 14:04:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 12:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46B4C9D9.4060904@saw.net> Message-ID: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- davis wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > --- Liam Proven wrote: > > > > > >> On 30/06/07, Chris M > wrote: > >> > >> > >>> I saw *my* first piece of Transmeta hardware, > >>> > >> some > >> > >>> box, on ePay the other day. Don't ask me the > >>> > >> details, > >> > >>> I don't even think I "watched" the auction. > >>> > >> That surprises me! > >> > > > > I wasn't looking mind you :) > > > > > >> They weren't that uncommon. I've > >> used a Transmeta > >> Sony Vaio; nice little machine. > >> > > > > Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense > that > > some of the diminutive Vaios used Transmeta > hardware. > > My Vaio (currently in suspended animation :( ), is > a > > big honker. 8 or 9 lbs. iirc. > > I've been told the problem might just be a solder > > crack. Here's hoping... > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights > and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > Sounds like you have the same vaio I have. Perhaps > it's a GRX series? > Beautiful, 16" 1600*1200 screen, weighs a ton, but > bad design on the > simm sockets. > I'm going to take mine to work where I have the > proper tools to do a > rework. It's almost on topic, but I'm not waiting 3 > years to reply. > BTW: their was a movement for a class action > lawsuit, but I don't think > it ever got off the ground. > Jim. Yep. GRX560. I should have waited a bit longer and got the 570 though, but I still haven't found the need to burn a DVD. Funny, when it started flaking out, I pulled the simm and plugged it back in. It worked for another minute or so. Happened one more time, then it wouldn't ever reboot. So it's probably a localized problem. Good to hear. What sort of tools are you referring to? Best to reply offlist. These things are nowhere nears being on-topic. Oomphuh ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Aug 4 14:24:15 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 15:24:15 -0400 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? References: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000901c7d6cd$0cb819a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Yes, Applicon made a vector graphics unibus device that had a 32-bit ALU based on 6701's. I have a tube of 6701D's around here somewhere, if anyone is interested... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? > There's been a lot of chatter about the AMD 2901 series bit-slice. > Does anyone recall any system that employed the MMI 6701 series? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From davis at saw.net Sat Aug 4 14:32:53 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:32:53 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B4D465.7080906@saw.net> Chris M wrote: > --- davis wrote: > > >> Chris M wrote: >> >>> --- Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 30/06/07, Chris M >>>> >> wrote: >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I saw *my* first piece of Transmeta hardware, >>>>> >>>>> >>>> some >>>> >>>> >>>>> box, on ePay the other day. Don't ask me the >>>>> >>>>> >>>> details, >>>> >>>> >>>>> I don't even think I "watched" the auction. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> That surprises me! >>>> >>>> >>> I wasn't looking mind you :) >>> >>> >>> >>>> They weren't that uncommon. I've >>>> used a Transmeta >>>> Sony Vaio; nice little machine. >>>> >>>> >>> Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense >>> >> that >> >>> some of the diminutive Vaios used Transmeta >>> >> hardware. >> >>> My Vaio (currently in suspended animation :( ), is >>> >> a >> >>> big honker. 8 or 9 lbs. iirc. >>> I've been told the problem might just be a solder >>> crack. Here's hoping... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > >>> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights >>> >> and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. >> >>> http://farechase.yahoo.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Sounds like you have the same vaio I have. Perhaps >> it's a GRX series? >> Beautiful, 16" 1600*1200 screen, weighs a ton, but >> bad design on the >> simm sockets. >> I'm going to take mine to work where I have the >> proper tools to do a >> rework. It's almost on topic, but I'm not waiting 3 >> years to reply. >> BTW: their was a movement for a class action >> lawsuit, but I don't think >> it ever got off the ground. >> Jim. >> > > Yep. GRX560. I should have waited a bit longer and > got the 570 though, but I still haven't found the need > to burn a DVD. Funny, when it started flaking out, I > pulled the simm and plugged it back in. It worked for > another minute or so. Happened one more time, then it > wouldn't ever reboot. So it's probably a localized > problem. Good to hear. What sort of tools are you > referring to? Best to reply offlist. These things are > nowhere nears being on-topic. Oomphuh > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > > Yep, Same model. The simm sockets connections break due to the poor thermal design., Some very hot chips live on the other side of the board. When I was at intel and radisys, I had SMD rework station access, but now it's just a nice metcal iron and a couple pairs of reading glasses supplemented with a inspection magnifier. old age sucks. Jim Davis. From davis at saw.net Sat Aug 4 14:38:59 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:38:59 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: <000901c7d6cd$0cb819a0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com> <000901c7d6cd$0cb819a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <46B4D5D3.6030806@saw.net> Bob Shannon wrote: > Yes, > > Applicon made a vector graphics unibus device that had a 32-bit ALU > based on 6701's. > > I have a tube of 6701D's around here somewhere, if anyone is > interested... > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:47 PM > Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? > > >> There's been a lot of chatter about the AMD 2901 series bit-slice. >> Does anyone recall any system that employed the MMI 6701 series? >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> > > > I didn't know monolithic memory had a bit slice, Was I asleep in the 70's? Apparently AMD got all the buzz. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 4 14:52:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 14:52:49 -0500 Subject: OMG Re: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? References: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <46B4D465.7080906@saw.net> Message-ID: <005f01c7d6d1$0be6c310$6500a8c0@BILLING> ... snip of 3,335 bytes ... Most of that was blank lines.... PLEASE trim your replies or just don't bother to hit "send"! Jay West From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sat Aug 4 11:26:47 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 18:26:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com>, <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> Chuck Guzis said: > On 4 Aug 2007 at 0:07, Joe Giliberti wrote: > >> Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into >> everything >> now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU such as a >> Z80 >> or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will likely need an >> EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern PC? > > Believe it or not, they're still being made. Here's one that works > with a PC parallel port: > > http://www.batronix.com/electronic/circuits/eeprommer.shtml > > Smallest one seems to be a 2764, but still, not too bad for a new > unit. Not the best choice, IMHO, a better one you might find at www.willem.org. There are commercial clones as well, like the one from www.silvotronic.de (board, kit available through ePay for instance). I have bought a kit from them and they work fine. Another choice could be to use EEPROMs like 2816 or 2864/65; a very simple but useful device for the PC parallel port is from Chris Ward at http://home.freeuk.net/c.ward/6502/programmer.html. -- Holger From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 4 15:18:45 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:18:45 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186258725.4261.0.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 23:36 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hmm, looks like the theory that most of the UK vintage computer enthusiasts > > are in the North is true then. Maybe it's something in the water :P > > I suspect it's more likely to be that houses are cheaer outside London. > and classic computer enthusiasts (no, make that programmers, engineers, > scientists) are not well-paid over here. Or if they are, wouldn't pay London prices for a shoebox when they can get something the size of an aircraft hangar for the same money. Gordonjcp (who is currently cursing the state of the housing market) From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 4 15:23:19 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:23:19 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (River) In-Reply-To: <575CFD9E-04CF-4A95-840C-50FA3A4966E1@neurotica.com> References: <20070802231621.C9A632744D@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> <200708030047.16846.rtellason@verizon.net> <575CFD9E-04CF-4A95-840C-50FA3A4966E1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200708041623.20220.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 August 2007 18:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 3, 2007, at 12:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I've been thinking about that, aren't there cross-assemblers out > > there that > > would do the job? I'd be interested in hearing about any that > > would run > > under linux, for the z80, 8085, or 6502 chips... > > I use zmac (see http://www.speccy.org/metalbrain/link-eng.htm) > under OS X and Solaris for Z80 assembler work. It should build fine > under Linux. > > -Dave Looks pretty good. Only thing I see in there that I don't like is the ds directive making defined storage zero bytes -- I'd rather it left things uninitialized, for various reasons. Now where did I put that source code...? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Aug 4 15:32:05 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 supplies are exhausted Message-ID: As of now, my two remaining P112 kits are spoken for (you know who you are). Plans to make more will depend on getting at least 30 units preordered. This brings me to VCF West. I've been asked to do a workshop on the P112 at VCF West . I don't really know what I'd talk about, but at the very least I guess it would be a bunch of people soldering together their P112 kits. So far, my schedule looks good for that. So, please email me at this address or my yahoo account (cupricus) and let me know what you want. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 4 16:04:08 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:04:08 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <20070804062109.9BCE827412@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> References: <20070804062109.9BCE827412@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <200708041704.08620.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 04 August 2007 02:21, river wrote: > Hi, > > There's plenty of free x-assemblers you can find on the net. I run > x-assemblers for 8080/85, 8086/88, 6800, 6809, Z80, 2650, SC/MP and 68000. > They all run on a Windows box. I use two old PCs for my development, one is > a 166Mhz Pentium running Win98 and the other is a 486SX (25Mhz) running > Win3.1. Those machines can run all the x-assemblers and editors necessary > for developing code for most old 8-bit processors. I have plenty of old hardware kicking around for such a setup but no room to set any of it up currently, and also a pretty full plate in some other respects. Playing around with a bunch of the 8-bit chips I have on hand is definitely on my list of stuff to get to, but nowhere near the top of that list unfortunately... > If I need to get serious and require some ICE then I have an Intel MDS220 > and an Intel MDS IV, which can do 8080 and 8085 ICE, respectively. > > You can find basic processor schematics on the net and do your initial > build on some breadboard. Depending on the complexity, my final build is > usually wire-wrapped or soldered on veroboard. I had envisoned doing a lot of wire-wrapping, but with the state of my vision currently I'm not so sure if I want to any more. I also wouldn't mind finding a source for those little tags that OK used to sell to put on the wire side of the board to keep your pin numbers apparent. Anybody know if those are still made? > Most of the x-assemblers will create an Intel Hex object code file, and you > program your home-brew system to be able to download these files and that's > how you load code into your system. Or something. I think I had a spec for that someplace... > Of course, unless you have a front panel, you'll need to create a boot > EPROM, so access to an EPROM burner is required. For anything requiring much of a user interface at all I'd be inclined to go with a serial port. None of my computers are so new that they lack this feature. :-) And yes, I'd definitely want some basic monitor functions in there, and maybe a bit of debugging stuff as well, if it didn't take up too much room. > I use an old Microprofessor MFP-1P, which has the EPROM burning > board connected and it burns 2516, 2716, 2532, 2732, 2732A and 2764 chips - > which is all I use on my home-brew systems. That's probably all I'd use as well, unless I got into something really code-intensive (not likely for an 8-bit chip) or that used extensive amounts of some sort of lookup data. I have parts up to 27512 on hand, I think. Also got that burner that Steve Ciarcia wrote about in Byte magazine way back when, the one that's based on the 8052-BASIC -- you can have a serial terminal hooked up to it and at any prompt type a ^C, which will get you a different prompt and then things like "LIST" work. :-) Gotta burn a new eprom for that thing one of these days, though, the default baud rate is 1200! > One of the projects I am intending to do is to build a dedicated EPROM > burner, using some old 8-bit processor that can program the above chips as > well as the 2708. Doesn't the '08 require something a bit odd in terms of power supply voltages? I think it needs +12 or something, though it's been a while. I've nothing earlier than the '16, and don't see much of a need for it. Same reason I'm not likely to ever use those 1702s I salvaged, though those ceramic-and-gold cases sure are pretty. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 4 16:07:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:07:34 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708041055.l74AtOaU000791@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> <200708041055.l74AtOaU000791@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200708041707.34671.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 04 August 2007 07:51, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into > > everything now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU > > such as a Z80 or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will > > likely need an EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern > > PC? > > The logic needed to program a modern EPROM (from 2716 onward) is pretty > simple and straight-forward. A simple EPROM programmer is another useful > and easy to build project. I have a design with software somewhere on my > commercial site - it's more than you need, with a keypad/display so that > it can run stand-alone, but you could borrow the programming algorithms > from it (or just read the data sheets) to build up a simple PC controlled > device. Speaking of running standalone, that Ciarcia programmer I mentioned in another post apparently has such capabilities, having a single-digit LED display and a couple of status (?) LEDs as well, plus a pushbutton or two. I have *no* info on this mode of operating the thing, though. Anybody know where I might find some? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 4 16:13:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:13:47 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> Message-ID: <46B4899B.30989.E1775ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2007 at 18:26, Holger Veit wrote: > Not the best choice, IMHO, a better one you might find at www.willem.org. > There are commercial clones as well, like the one from www.silvotronic.de > (board, kit available through ePay for instance). I have bought a kit from > them and they work fine. > > Another choice could be to use EEPROMs like 2816 or 2864/65; a very simple > but useful device for the PC parallel port is from Chris Ward at > http://home.freeuk.net/c.ward/6502/programmer.html. The one I use is an EZ-EP from M2L Electronics. I doubt that they're still around. Software with it is pretty decent. I wish I had the boatload of adapters they offered for doing all of the various programmable devices, though. In particular, I've got some 16-bit EPROMs that this thing won't program. I've also got an ancient Taiwanese one that works only with a PC XT that will handle 2708s. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Aug 4 16:42:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 14:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II docs Message-ID: Does anyone here know of an online archive of docs for the Xerox 820-II. I have a few binders for it and I'm wondering how much of this I need to run through a scanner. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 16:34:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:34:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B35B1A.4390.979CBD0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 3, 7 04:43:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Aug 2007 at 23:52, Pete Edwards wrote: > > > I've just got to a major milestone on a 6502 based prototype (ie it > > actually runs my code :) and I've got to say I felt I'd actually > > achieved something special after debugging with nowt but a meter and > > led+resistor probe(s). > > Good job! It's surprising how far one can get without a scope or a > logic analyzer. I'd recommend, though, that you put together a > "pulse sniffer"--little more than a one-shot driving an LED to > "stretch" pulses so they're easily visible. Often, a simple LED Another one is to used an edge-triggered flip-flop (74F74 or simiar). Reset it buy hand, tie 'D' high, the clock input to the signal you want to look at and an LED + resistor from Q/ to Vcc. That one leaves no doubt that a pulse has come :-) Be aware that such simple testers tell you nothing about the timing of the signals, and that can be very misleading. Recently I was debugging an HP9820 'calculator' which uses a bit-serial processor. Data is shifted into the MSB end of various registers, out of the LSB end (that is normal enough). Anyway, on the M register (Memory address), bits 15...12 were changing (detected with a logic probe type of text), the other bits were all stuck low. Since this is built up from 4 off 7495 chips (each one 4 bits), my first gueess was that the chip handlinh bits 11...8 had failed -- the outputs of that were stuck low, then 0's were always being shifted into the lower 2 chips, so those were low too. So I changed it. No change to the fault _at all_. Not only did the machine not work, sitll, but bits 11....0 of the M register were still all stuck low. It's only after I got out a logic analyser and looked at the timing of bits 15....12 that I realised the timing was crazy, with pulses of half the clock period on the outputs, and the outputs were always low when the active edge of the clock occured. That meant all the lower shift regitster section correctly shifted in a 0 from bit 12. I replaced the high nybble chip (actually using the one I'd taken out from bits 11...8 -- 7495s are not common!), and the machine sprang to life. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 16:27:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:27:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> from "Rob" at Aug 4, 7 00:33:28 am Message-ID: > > On 03/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > some years back for such an event with an eccentric friend of mine, we > > came to the conclusion that suitable rooms (large, solid floor that they > > didn't main us putting 19" racks on, enough power capacity for running a > > few minis) werre very few and far between, and those we did find were too > > expensive, based onthe number of people we expected to attend. > > > > I usspect such venues may be cheaper out of London, but then I wouldn't > > attend. > > > > I had a couple of years experience in the Dog Show scene, some time > back, and found that sports halls (school, college and stand-alone) > tended to get used a lot. They ranged from fairly big to Huge, and I am pretty sure we considered such places. The main problems were the floor (which the owners didn't want scratched, dented or marked) and power. We didn#t feel like buying enough 3.4" plywood to cover the floor (which would have solved the first problem). But the power was the greater problem anywauy. Typically there'd me 4 or so 13A sockets, almost certainly all on one ring, so a maximum current capacity of 30A. We felt we needed at least 125A (our working idea was 10 exhibitors at about 13A per exhibitor, if somebody wanted to run a large minicomputer, well, we'd ensure somebody else was only rounnibg a Beeb :-)). This led us to look at dance halls and the like. These did have considerable mains currnet capacity (for lighting rigs, etc), 125A sockets were not uncommon. The floor was still a problem (if not more so!), and hiring them wosn't cheap! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 16:42:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:42:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> from "Joe Giliberti" at Aug 4, 7 00:07:39 am Message-ID: > > Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into everything > now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU such as a Z80 > or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will likely need an > EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern PC? IMHO, more important than the EPROM programmer is an EPROM emulator. This is a box of RAM that connectes to the EPROM socket of the target system (the board you'be just made) and also to a host machine (PC, parallel port, serial port, USB?). YOu can quickly download perogams into the emulator, which then appears exactly as the EPROM does ot the target, and the latter can therefroe run said programs. The advantage over using EPROMs is that you can re-write the RAM as many times as you like (EPROMS have a limited number of program cycles) and rewrite it quickly. Unless your programming is a lot better than mine, you will go mad if you have to wait 20 minutes for an EPROM to be erased and reprogammed. each time you want to make a change! There have bnen seceral desings for such devices in Elektor magazine over the years (and I guess elesewhere). The one I put together (using the Elektor PCB) was just a handful of TTL parts and a couple of 32K SRAMs. It links to a PC parallel port (which downloads bytes into the RAM). -tony From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 4 19:22:29 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:22:29 -0400 Subject: Ampro LittleBoard/286 Message-ID: All: I just got my hands on an Ampro LittleBoard/286. It appears to be in good condition but comes with no manuals or software of any kind. The power connector is obvious but I would like to get a manual and do some reading before getting deep into the board. Googling produces very limited info and no manuals. Does anyone have a copy of the manual they?d be willing to scan or copy for me? Of course, I?ll put an information page on my Web site once I?ve collected a bunch of info on it. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 4 20:08:12 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:08:12 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200708050108.l7518Jmd077350@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:27:00 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > But the power was the >greater problem anywauy. Typically there'd me 4 or so 13A sockets, almost >certainly all on one ring, so a maximum current capacity of 30A. We felt >we needed at least 125A (our working idea was 10 exhibitors at about 13A >per exhibitor, if somebody wanted to run a large minicomputer, well, we'd >ensure somebody else was only rounnibg a Beeb :-)). A few years back I helped set up a very large lan party in a hall that had a kitchen. We unplugged 2 deepfryers in the kitchen and fed 2 disrtibution panels from those outlets. We had a about 80 modern gameing computers with monitors running for several days. Just a thought... til later. Bob From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 23:23:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 21:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46B4D465.7080906@saw.net> Message-ID: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- davis wrote: > Yep, Same model. The simm sockets connections break > due to the poor > thermal design., Some very hot chips live on the > other side of the > board. When I was at intel and radisys, I had SMD > rework station access, > but now it's just a nice metcal iron and a couple > pairs of reading > glasses supplemented with a inspection magnifier. > old age sucks. > Jim Davis. would a decent eye loupe do the trick, as far as determining where the problem lay? Truthfully I've had problem power supplies in the past, and nailed each solder junction (on the underside of the board) w/a hot iron, and it always seemed to work like a charm (can't remember why I suspected it was cracked solder though). Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I don't see any reason why I couldn't chisel one down for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting disaster? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 4 23:55:32 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:55:32 -0400 Subject: Rasterops drivers for Mac OS 6.0x References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006801c7d71c$da7a4210$f3781941@game> Anybody have some Rasterops drivers for Mac OS 6.0x? I had asked here before and somebody said they had some but nothing ever came of it. I have drivers that work in OS 7.x+ but nothing for OS 6.0x. (Nubus video cards from the 68K Mac era). Thanks TZ From james at machineroom.info Sat Aug 4 15:52:16 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:52:16 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B67F3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B67F3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46B4E700.40501@machineroom.info> Billy Pettit wrote: I'm in Southampton. I'd be up for visiting, and possibly showing my 340 node Transputer system if I can get it doing anything interesting! From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 4 17:56:03 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:56:03 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070802150011.060f6790@mail.30below.com> <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186268163.4261.8.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 00:33 +0100, Rob wrote: > had solid floors. For a VCF, though, power might be an issue - > sockets were obviously not a priority in most of their designs.... I Hire a genny. Gordon From davis at saw.net Sun Aug 5 01:59:20 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:59:20 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B57548.1000309@saw.net> Chris M wrote: > --- davis wrote: > > > > would a decent eye loupe do the trick, as far as > determining where the problem lay? Truthfully I've had > problem power supplies in the past, and nailed each > solder junction (on the underside of the board) w/a > hot iron, and it always seemed to work like a charm > (can't remember why I suspected it was cracked solder > though). Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I > don't see any reason why I couldn't chisel one down > for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting > disaster? > > > > > From what I understand about the problem, just remelting the junctions and not applying solder will do the trick. I'm not sure how long this type of fix will work. The tricky part is not being too ham-handed and blobbing the connections together. There is much written about this problem, a few years ago, more than one repair house would do it for $150. > Cheers, Jim Davis From davis at saw.net Sun Aug 5 02:03:34 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:03:34 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B57646.3080001@saw.net> Chris M wrote: > > > would a decent eye loupe do the trick, as far as > determining where the problem lay? Truthfully I've had > problem power supplies in the past, and nailed each > solder junction (on the underside of the board) w/a > hot iron, and it always seemed to work like a charm > (can't remember why I suspected it was cracked solder > though). Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I > don't see any reason why I couldn't chisel one down > for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting > disaster? > > > I'm good at reading a question and not ansering it. I don't think you can see the problem at any magnification, since I seem to remember that the actual connections hide a few mills under the socket. > Jim Davis. From davis at saw.net Sun Aug 5 02:09:05 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:09:05 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B57791.10703@saw.net> Chris M wrote: > --- davis wrote: > > > would a decent eye loupe do the trick, as far as > determining where the problem lay? Truthfully I've had > problem power supplies in the past, and nailed each > solder junction (on the underside of the board) w/a > hot iron, and it always seemed to work like a charm > (can't remember why I suspected it was cracked solder > though). Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I > don't see any reason why I couldn't chisel one down > for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting > disaster? > > > Did it again, Copper will get eaten by lead solder. I tried this with a old weller as a kid and the tip didn't seem to last a hr. I don't know about the new leadfree pain in the ass techmology. I'm sure your and mine GRX560 is one of the last laptops to use leaded solder. Or maybe the problem is lead-free with bad processes? > Jim Davis. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 03:08:10 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:08:10 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1186301290.4261.14.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 21:23 -0700, Chris M wrote: > would a decent eye loupe do the trick, as far as > determining where the problem lay? Truthfully I've had > problem power supplies in the past, and nailed each > solder junction (on the underside of the board) w/a > hot iron, and it always seemed to work like a charm > (can't remember why I suspected it was cracked solder > though). Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I > don't see any reason why I couldn't chisel one down > for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting > disaster? I regularly resolder entire boards of electronics from a certain make of car that regulars will know I'm nearly as obsessed with as other people around here are obsessed with certain makes of computers. I've yet to see an actual dry joint on some of the boards, but that's clearly what the problem is - flexing and poking the board brings it back to life temporarily, resoldering cures it for another ten years hopefully. Some are glaringly obvious; one board has a big power darlington and a 0.47 ohm current sensing resistor that get very hot. These nearly always have dry joints. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 03:09:33 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:09:33 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708050108.l7518Jmd077350@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200708050108.l7518Jmd077350@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1186301373.4261.15.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 21:08 -0400, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:27:00 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > > > But the power was the > >greater problem anywauy. Typically there'd me 4 or so 13A sockets, almost > >certainly all on one ring, so a maximum current capacity of 30A. We felt > >we needed at least 125A (our working idea was 10 exhibitors at about 13A > >per exhibitor, if somebody wanted to run a large minicomputer, well, we'd > >ensure somebody else was only rounnibg a Beeb :-)). > > A few years back I helped set up a very large lan party in a hall that had a kitchen. > We unplugged 2 deepfryers in the kitchen and fed 2 disrtibution panels from those outlets. > We had a about 80 modern gameing computers with monitors running for several days. ... but no fried food :-/ Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 03:16:52 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:16:52 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> , <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> , <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> Message-ID: <1186301812.4261.17.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 18:26 +0200, Holger Veit wrote: > Not the best choice, IMHO, a better one you might find at www.willem.org. > There are commercial clones as well, like the one from www.silvotronic.de > (board, kit available through ePay for instance). I have bought a kit from > them and they work fine. One caveat with the willem programmers is that there really is only Windows software available for them. It works well under Wine with a bit of messing about. Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun Aug 5 05:13:33 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 12:13:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B4899B.30989.E1775ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> <46B4899B.30989.E1775ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <13559.217.225.102.125.1186308813.squirrel@217.225.102.125> Chuck Guzis said: > I've also got an ancient Taiwanese one that works only with a PC XT > that will handle 2708s. >From modern point of view (ok with classic cmp fans I am on thin ice :-) ) it does not make sense any more to user the three voltage EPROMs. Not only that they require quite a different programming method, the three supply voltages need to be applied in correct order (namely GND/-5V first, then +5, finally +12) otherwise they can easily be fried. Managed this more than once in the past, result was to rewire the circuit to use the less sensitive 2716s instead. -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun Aug 5 05:30:55 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 12:30:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <1186301812.4261.17.camel@elric> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> , <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> , <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> <1186301812.4261.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: <13577.217.225.102.125.1186309855.squirrel@217.225.102.125> Gordon JC Pearce said: > On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 18:26 +0200, Holger Veit wrote: > >> Not the best choice, IMHO, a better one you might find at >> www.willem.org. >> There are commercial clones as well, like the one from >> www.silvotronic.de >> (board, kit available through ePay for instance). I have bought a kit >> from >> them and they work fine. > > One caveat with the willem programmers is that there really is only > Windows software available for them. It works well under Wine with a > bit of messing about. Which is not really a fault of the Willem, but rather market decision. There is Linux support meanwhile for any toilet flush device, but there does not seem to be any need (in that a programmer adapts the available source code to Linux) to port that thing yet. Personally, I have been a Linux evangelist for long, but that ideology does not lead to anything rather than adding unnecessary complexity to life. The lesson that you don't fix screws with hammers but with an appropriate tool has yet to be learnt in computing. So I use Windows where suited best, and Linux in other situations. -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun Aug 5 05:23:15 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 12:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> from "Joe Giliberti" at Aug 4, 7 00:07:39 am Message-ID: <13561.217.225.102.125.1186309395.squirrel@217.225.102.125> Tony Duell said: > IMHO, more important than the EPROM programmer is an EPROM emulator. This > is a box of RAM that connectes to the EPROM socket of the target system > (the board you'be just made) and also to a host machine (PC, parallel > port, serial port, USB?). YOu can quickly download perogams into the > emulator, which then appears exactly as the EPROM does ot the target, and > the latter can therefroe run said programs. > > The advantage over using EPROMs is that you can re-write the RAM as many > times as you like (EPROMS have a limited number of program cycles) and > rewrite it quickly. Unless your programming is a lot better than mine, > you will go mad if you have to wait 20 minutes for an EPROM to be erased > and reprogammed. each time you want to make a change! I haven't so far reached the maximum # of programming cycles for EPROMs in any experiment. *) As I recommended you might use EEPROMs instead of EPROMs mainly because of their moderate capacity (you won't need PC FLASH ROMs with 1MB or more for an 8 bit system) and because they don't need erasing in the UV coffin. *) Maybe your and my programming strategy differs; now with SW emulators for almost any old CPU being available ona PC, I tend to test my code in an emulator, often with single stepping first before I make a HEX file to burn it; even with EEPROMs - the old turnaround cycle of change a byte, program, insert and test how far it works is still too long even with RAM boxes. Admittedly, in the old times, without PC emulation, I did a lot of paper testing work first before burning the stuff into an EPROM; this discipline meanwhile degraded... -- Holger From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 07:39:40 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/84 H7200 repair advice Message-ID: <746522.47629.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I tried today to bring up my 11/84 - initial tests are showing me that there is something wrong with the power supply, an H7200. While the fans run, there doesn't appear to be any +5v. There is a faint ticking sound heard from the supply, and when I drop the power, there is a soft squeaking. So, before I take the this thing apart, are there any suggestions where I can look, common failures, etc? Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 07:39:40 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/84 H7200 repair advice Message-ID: <746522.47629.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I tried today to bring up my 11/84 - initial tests are showing me that there is something wrong with the power supply, an H7200. While the fans run, there doesn't appear to be any +5v. There is a faint ticking sound heard from the supply, and when I drop the power, there is a soft squeaking. So, before I take the this thing apart, are there any suggestions where I can look, common failures, etc? Thanks! -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 5 11:17:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:17:53 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <13559.217.225.102.125.1186308813.squirrel@217.225.102.125> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B4899B.30989.E1775ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <13559.217.225.102.125.1186308813.squirrel@217.225.102.125> Message-ID: <46B595C1.17853.122EE5FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2007 at 12:13, Holger Veit wrote: > > Chuck Guzis said: > > I've also got an ancient Taiwanese one that works only with a PC XT > > that will handle 2708s. > > >From modern point of view (ok with classic cmp fans I am on thin ice :-) ) That second sentence is not mine--I don't know where it came from. In fact, the only reason that I can think of to use 2708s (or even 3- supply 2716s and 2732s) is historical accuracy. For that matter, why bother with UV erasers and UV EPROMs at all? There are plenty of good EEPROMs around that are easy to erase and simple to program. Flash is even better, with boot block features and the ability to be partially programmed. And there are some moderate-capacity nonvolatile technologies, such as FRAM that should do very handily in most designs. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 5 11:29:59 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:29:59 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 04 August 2007 17:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm really looking into > > everything now, as far as building a computer from an off the shelf CPU > > such as a Z80 or 6502. One thing that has occurred to me is that I will > > likely need an EPROM Burner. Where can I get such a device for a modern > > PC? > > IMHO, more important than the EPROM programmer is an EPROM emulator. This > is a box of RAM that connectes to the EPROM socket of the target system > (the board you'be just made) and also to a host machine (PC, parallel > port, serial port, USB?). YOu can quickly download perogams into the > emulator, which then appears exactly as the EPROM does ot the target, and > the latter can therefroe run said programs. Agreed. > The advantage over using EPROMs is that you can re-write the RAM as many > times as you like (EPROMS have a limited number of program cycles) and > rewrite it quickly. Unless your programming is a lot better than mine, > you will go mad if you have to wait 20 minutes for an EPROM to be erased > and reprogammed. each time you want to make a change! Unless you have a pile of EPROMs handy... :-) > There have bnen seceral desings for such devices in Elektor magazine over > the years (and I guess elesewhere). The one I put together (using the > Elektor PCB) was just a handful of TTL parts and a couple of 32K SRAMs. > It links to a PC parallel port (which downloads bytes into the RAM). I remember seeing one magazine article for such a device, but I wasn't that thrilled with the design of it. It used some sort of counter chips to step through the addresses of the target RAM, and wasn't very flexible in its approach to things. I started giving some serious thought to building one of those boxes, but never did finish it. Do you know of designs on the web? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 5 11:32:28 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:32:28 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708051232.28819.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 05 August 2007 00:23, Chris M wrote: > Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I don't see any reason why I > couldn't chisel one down for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting > disaster? They're made of copper, but they're also plated with iron, and once that plating is gone the copper doesn't last -- it gets pitted, etc. On really old stuff I used to file tips, but not any more... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 5 11:53:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:53:06 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <200708051232.28819.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <558407.29482.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com>, <200708051232.28819.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46B59E02.27911.124F23FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2007 at 12:32, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > They're made of copper, but they're also plated with iron, and once that > plating is gone the copper doesn't last -- it gets pitted, etc. On really > old stuff I used to file tips, but not any more... Back in the old days, we used to coat the copper tips with silver (hard) solder (56% silver) to extend the life. But you need a torch to do that--silver solder melts at about 1100F and requires a special flux. Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Aug 5 12:04:25 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 10:04:25 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/84 H7200 repair advice In-Reply-To: <746522.47629.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <746522.47629.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708051004.25242.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 05 August 2007 05:39, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I tried today to bring up my 11/84 - initial > tests are showing me that there is something wrong > with the power supply, an H7200. While the fans run, > there doesn't appear to be any +5v. There is a faint > ticking sound heard from the supply, and when I drop > the power, there is a soft squeaking. > > So, before I take the this thing apart, are there any > suggestions where I can look, common failures, etc? Whenever I'm testing a new mini system, I typically document the system (incl. board locations, etc.), pull all the boards, check out all the PS capacitors (ESR if you have a tester - VOM/DVM otherwise) - then power it up. Lack of power can be caused by something as simple as a fuse or as nasty as shorted traces on a backplane or a bad diode, transistor, regulator, etc. Once you've found the problem and fixed it, check all the supply voltages for ripple (either a scope or AC DVM are O.K.). Once the PS voltages and ripple are acceptable, reinsert the minimum of boards to test the system (typically CPU&Memory). Again test all voltages. Then re-inert the remaining boards. If the PS problem "reappears", pull the latest set of boards, retest voltages and re-insert the boards one-by-one until you discover the board causing the problem. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lproven at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 12:06:38 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 18:06:38 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <727474.18935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> <727474.18935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708051006u6a89fe3w6cbfc417c5fabfb2@mail.gmail.com> On 04/08/07, Chris M wrote: > Do the "bobbies" still use bikes in the rural areas > LOL. And let's not get caught up on terminology. I do > realize the useage has shifted recently... In London, there are cops on mountain bikes - and paramedics, too. They can get through the jams /and/ the crowds. No idea about out in the provinces. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 12:13:35 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 18:13:35 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> <575131af0708040930u307d999at521a6102adb52039@mail.gmail.com> <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0708051013q196da65budf0ef2cb22c06215@mail.gmail.com> On 04/08/07, woodelf wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > > But it will probably come in time. At some point, the now largely > > SI-based UK will have to adopt SI speed limits and so forth. > > I thought you all traveled by rail over there. :) I wish! No. Millions do, but most use cars. The snag being that it's a relatively tiny island and our biggest "freeways" are 4 lanes in each direction; most major roads are just 1 or 2 lanes. Narrower than much of Europe, let alone the States. Ergo, horrific traffic congestion. 60 million people - one-fifth as many as the USA - but in one-fortieth of the area, so around 8x the population density. (UK: 60M people, 244,000 sq km. USA: 300M people, 9,600,000 sq km.) -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From marvin at west.net Sun Aug 5 12:14:54 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:14:54 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? Message-ID: <46B6058E.A29B4B61@west.net> > From: davis > > > would a decent eye loupe do the trick, as far as > > determining where the problem lay? Truthfully I've had > > problem power supplies in the past, and nailed each > > solder junction (on the underside of the board) w/a > > hot iron, and it always seemed to work like a charm > > > > From what I understand about the problem, just remelting the junctions and not applying solder will do the trick. Remelting the junctions IF you apply flux to the joint will work fine (if the joint is not too badly oxidized.) Not applying flux is just playing the lottery as to the quality of the resoldered joint. A badly oxidized joint probably needs to go through the solder sucker routine before applying new solder w/flux. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 12:19:36 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 18:19:36 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070802150011.060f6790@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708051019q37a771bk6b22ce0fb26e0ee1@mail.gmail.com> On 03/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > To answer another question in this thread, I am in England (south-west > London, near Richmond). I could only contemplate coming to such an event > if it was held in the Greater London area (actually, London Bus Pass > area, which is slightly larger). And having looked for suitable venues > some years back for such an event with an eccentric friend of mine, we > came to the conclusion that suitable rooms (large, solid floor that they > didn't main us putting 19" racks on, enough power capacity for running a > few minis) werre very few and far between, and those we did find were too > expensive, based onthe number of people we expected to attend. Did you look at the old Horticultural Halls, venues of the ZX Microfairs in the 1980s? Worked then. I attended a lot of those and they were always great fun. > I usspect such venues may be cheaper out of London, but then I wouldn't > attend. Whereas I'd much prefer London myself, why do you adamantly rule out anywhere else, JOOI? It's only a fiver to go to Guildford or somewhere like that and most of the SE at least can be done pretty cheaply. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From marvin at west.net Sun Aug 5 12:19:58 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:19:58 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? Message-ID: <46B606BE.79AE938C@west.net> Chris M wrote: > > though). Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I > don't see any reason why I couldn't chisel one down > for a specific task. Any thoughts? Am I courting > disaster? Depends on the tip. The better soldering tips are coated/plated with another metal, and filing removes that coating. It will still work, but will also require more maintenance to keep the tip working properly. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 12:25:53 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 18:25:53 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0708051025h6d8977eke0b1cb1b46795c17@mail.gmail.com> On 02/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? [Raises paw] Mitcham, SW London/Surrey borders. As far as venues go, anywhere that can host a large LANparty should do. It will have both the space and the power. Something like Multiplay: http://www.multiplay.co.uk/ Multiplay 31 is happening next week. 1500 gamers are expected, most of them bringing a tricked-out high-performance PC that would draw ITRO a kiloWatt. Is Newbury too far south for the grumpy Northern gits*? :?) * (an expatriate Liverpudlian writes... It's much more pleasant Darn Sarf.) -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 5 12:25:48 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:25:48 -0500 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <2f806cd70708031633x47745ff8pb4563912fb900284@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070805122513.09385d80@mail> At 04:27 PM 8/4/2007, Tony Duell wrote: >This led us to look at dance halls and the like. These did have >considerable mains currnet capacity (for lighting rigs, etc), 125A >sockets were not uncommon. The floor was still a problem (if not more >so!), and hiring them wosn't cheap! It sounds like a warehouse or empty factory would make sense... not as pretty as a sports hall, but it'll do... - John From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 13:15:48 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 11:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <200708051702.l75H11a4011207@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <24305.83376.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > They're made of copper, but they're also plated with iron, and once that > > plating is gone the copper doesn't last -- it gets pitted, etc. On really > > old stuff I used to file tips, but not any more... > > Back in the old days, we used to coat the copper tips with silver > (hard) solder (56% silver) to extend the life. But you need a torch > to do that--silver solder melts at about 1100F and requires a special > flux. For what I believe was a short time back in the mid-late-70's, Weller came out with gold-flashed soldering iron tips. They seemed to last forever and kept a tin like a dream which might have been one of the reasons they discontinued them (i.e. tip sales reduced). Mine might still be usable today if they hadn't been lost in one of my trans-national moves (along with a large collection of soldering equipment and aids). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 5 13:43:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 14:43:16 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B595C1.17853.122EE5FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B4899B.30989.E1775ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <13559.217.225.102.125.1186308813.squirrel@217.225.102.125> <46B595C1.17853.122EE5FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <15B8B0CA-50D9-47A1-9052-D3D755CBD4AC@neurotica.com> On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For that matter, why bother with UV erasers and UV EPROMs at all? Sorry to jump in, but I'd like to add my opinion. I have a few reasons why someone might use UV EPROMs. If you've got the right equipment, UV EPROMs are cheap, readily available, highly standardized, predictable, and generally pretty bulletproof. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 5 13:45:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 14:45:08 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <13B13FD0-F8D8-4138-AA3C-085C51845E6F@neurotica.com> On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:29 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> The advantage over using EPROMs is that you can re-write the RAM >> as many >> times as you like (EPROMS have a limited number of program cycles) >> and >> rewrite it quickly. Unless your programming is a lot better than >> mine, >> you will go mad if you have to wait 20 minutes for an EPROM to be >> erased >> and reprogammed. each time you want to make a change! > > Unless you have a pile of EPROMs handy... :-) Very true. I know a few people who do EPROM-based development (myself included) and none of them has only one EPROM. In a real- world situation, there's no delay...efficient workflows are easily achieved. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 5 13:54:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 14:54:42 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <1186301812.4261.17.camel@elric> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> , <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> , <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> <1186301812.4261.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2007, at 4:16 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Not the best choice, IMHO, a better one you might find at >> www.willem.org. >> There are commercial clones as well, like the one from >> www.silvotronic.de >> (board, kit available through ePay for instance). I have bought a >> kit from >> them and they work fine. > > One caveat with the willem programmers is that there really is only > Windows software available for them. It works well under Wine with a > bit of messing about. That in itself is a good reason to avoid them, in my opinion. I have two or three useless PC-based EPROM programmers sitting in various boxes in the garage. They're useless because the manufacturer has orphaned them (or just plain gone out of business) and I either lost the software, or it only runs under some release of Windows that isn't easily available anymore. (and I'll be damned if I'm going to have a Windows machine here just to run an EPROM programmer!) Anything worth doing is worth doing right. Get a standalone device programmer, not one that pretends to be a computer peripheral...or worse yet, a "Windows PC peripheral". With a real device programmer, you won't get locked into the whims of the manufacturer (at least not as easily), or worse yet, the whims of Microsoft. Having an important tool depend on an unreliably, proprietary operating system from one manufacturer who is well-known for sleazy business practices sure doesn't sound to me like a smart way to run. I used a Data I/O 2900 for many years, and I absolutely loved it. I recently replaced it with a Data I/O Unisite...a big beefy one with a hard drive. It's Good Stuff(tm) and can program pretty much anything. When designing or repairing something, I never have to stop and worry about whether or not I can program a particular device. These machines have floppy drives, and can deal with DOS- formatted disks (which most anything can write) and understand literally dozens of different file formats. They can also be remotely controlled via a *STANDARD* serial port, and the protocol is simple and openly documented. Like I said...anything worth doing is worth doing right. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 5 14:54:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:54:16 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <15B8B0CA-50D9-47A1-9052-D3D755CBD4AC@neurotica.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B595C1.17853.122EE5FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <15B8B0CA-50D9-47A1-9052-D3D755CBD4AC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B5C878.777.12F4FD87@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2007 at 14:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > If you've got the right equipment, UV EPROMs are cheap, readily > available, highly standardized, predictable, and generally pretty > bulletproof. True--and for those of us who already possess the UV eraser and programmer, they can be convenient, particularly, if as mentioned earlier, one has a pile of them erased and ready to go. (My eraser usually has all the trays populated with erased EPROMs--every time I erase a batch, I move the tray of the oldest (least recently erased) to the "ready to program" parts bin. But the OP apparently owns neither the eraser nor the programmer. So a more modern solution might be far more economical and practical. If an FRAM or EEPROM were used, there might well not even be a need for a socket on the project. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 15:26:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:26:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708051019q37a771bk6b22ce0fb26e0ee1@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Aug 5, 7 06:19:36 pm Message-ID: > Whereas I'd much prefer London myself, why do you adamantly rule out > anywhere else, JOOI? It's only a fiver to go to Guildford or somewhere > like that and most of the SE at least can be done pretty cheaply. Becasue I'd want to bring at least one interesting toy along, and that is not something I'd fancy doing on a train... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 15:21:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:21:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <13561.217.225.102.125.1186309395.squirrel@217.225.102.125> from "Holger Veit" at Aug 5, 7 12:23:15 pm Message-ID: [EPROM emulatoros] > *) Maybe your and my programming strategy differs; now with SW emulators > for almost any old CPU being available ona PC, I tend to test my code in It does. Remember I don't have anything that will run such an emulator at anything like a reasonable speed. Anyway, I like to write little test programs to run on the target hardware (maybe just outputing a message through the serial port, or blinking some LEDs, or...). Just to make sure the target is doing something sensbile. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 15:10:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:10:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186268163.4261.8.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Aug 4, 7 11:56:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 00:33 +0100, Rob wrote: > > > had solid floors. For a VCF, though, power might be an issue - > > sockets were obviously not a priority in most of their designs.... I > > Hire a genny. How stable is the frequency of such a unit? Remember many larger disk drives have their spindle speed set by mains freqeucy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 15:30:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:30:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: DOuble-stepping BBC drives Message-ID: I should know this, but I can't easily find the answer... I have a BBC B+ with (1770)DFS (V2.x)( and ADFS (V3.5x) (or at least I think those version numbers are right). It is cabled up to a single 80 cylinder double-sided disk drive. I wish to read some files of a 40 cylinder (DFS) disk. I seem to remember there was a command that would cause the drive to double-step, but only allow reading. What is it? -tony From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Aug 5 15:59:07 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:59:07 +0100 Subject: DOuble-stepping BBC drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70708051359g71b8bb4dhea9f50e95c6a0ddd@mail.gmail.com> On 05/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > I should know this, but I can't easily find the answer... > > I have a BBC B+ with (1770)DFS (V2.x)( and ADFS (V3.5x) (or at least I > think those version numbers are right). It is cabled up to a single 80 > cylinder double-sided disk drive. > > I wish to read some files of a 40 cylinder (DFS) disk. I seem to remember > there was a command that would cause the drive to double-step, but only > allow reading. What is it? > In 1770 DFS, *DRIVE 0 40 should do the trick. (Substitute required drive number for 0, and 80 to go back.) Rob. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Aug 5 15:57:21 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:57:21 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/08/2007 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hire a genny. > > How stable is the frequency of such a unit? Remember many larger disk > drives have their spindle speed set by mains freqeucy. To say nothing of the fact that the output is often nothing like a sine wave, and many devices don't take kindly to that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 16:30:28 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 17:30:28 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> References: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > To say nothing of the fact that the output is often nothing like a sine > wave, and many devices don't take kindly to that. Cripes, what kind of crummy generators to you Brits have? The ones here in the US are very stable, and make power that nothing I know of complains about. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 5 17:29:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 16:29:52 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46B64F60.50102@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember seeing one magazine article for such a device, but I wasn't that > thrilled with the design of it. It used some sort of counter chips to step > through the addresses of the target RAM, and wasn't very flexible in its > approach to things. > > I started giving some serious thought to building one of those boxes, but > never did finish it. > > Do you know of designs on the web? > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ Ben alias woodelf. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Aug 5 18:48:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:48:46 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46B661DE.9060105@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/08/2007 22:30, William Donzelli wrote: >> To say nothing of the fact that the output is often nothing like a sine >> wave, and many devices don't take kindly to that. > > Cripes, what kind of crummy generators to you Brits have? The ones > here in the US are very stable, and make power that nothing I know of > complains about. We've tried small generators as backup to small UPs units, and they don't get on. Big ones are OK, that's the sort of thing they're designed for. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Aug 5 18:53:50 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:53:50 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Aug 2007 16:29:52 MDT." <46B64F60.50102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> woodelf wrote: >Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I remember seeing one magazine article for such a device, but I wasn't that > >> thrilled with the design of it. It used some sort of counter chips to step >> through the addresses of the target RAM, and wasn't very flexible in its >> approach to things. If you're talking about eprom emulators, "back in the day" I used to use a device called a "PROMICE". It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very handy. It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... I looked on ebay and didn't find one, sadly; I did find, however an "ostrich 2.0" USB eprom emulator which looks nice. www.moates.net Apparently there is a large community of people out there hacking engine ECU's. who knew? :-) -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 5 19:17:10 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 17:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070805171644.A42717@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > Cripes, what kind of crummy generators to you Brits have? are they made by Lucas? From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Aug 5 19:20:59 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:20:59 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net><006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20070802094852.GC26811@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <002e01c7d7bf$aa478e10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > When *I'm* interviewing prospective employees, I very much >like to hear that they know their way around an assembler.... >....If you've done assembler, you know programming from the >*computer's* point of view, and I'm absolutely convinced that >that gives you a significant advantage when it comes to >debuggering.... It's a real shame that there aren't more people like you around! TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Aug 5 19:22:17 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:22:17 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net><006a01c7d497$c675d630$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><20070802094852.GC26811@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <200708030037.10200.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003301c7d7bf$d8bbf330$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....a significant advantage when it comes to debuggering, especially >>debuggering interactions with other systems.... > "Debuggering"...? I love it! :-) ROTFLAMO! I missed that when I read it.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Aug 5 19:27:20 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:27:20 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> <46B4899B.30989.E1775ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004a01c7d7c0$8d5159c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I've also got an ancient Taiwanese one that works only with >a PC XT that will handle 2708s. That wouldn't be the "Sunshine" brand unit by any chance? I've got one of those too (along with their PAL programmer from around the same time) and it won't work in anything newer than an XT. :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Aug 5 19:40:38 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:40:38 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: Message-ID: <007501c7d7c2$68c1ff40$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > IMHO, more important than the EPROM programmer is an >EPROM emulator.... Good point, and the exact reason I picked up a "Softy S3" about 10 years back (which is in SERIOUS need of TLC unfortunately). Great little unit, it's an EPROM programmer/emulator in a package about the size of a large pocket calculator. Dump your code into it via a serial port and enter emulation mode for testing, when you're done just drop in a blank EPROM and hit the "burn" button. :-) I really should get this thing working again.... TTFN - Pete. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Aug 5 21:17:55 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:17:55 -0600 Subject: PCjr bus to 8 bit ISA bus adapter Message-ID: <46B684D3.3060506@brutman.com> I finally got around to reverse engineering and understanding my PCjr bus to 8 bit ISA bus adapter. The details are here: http://www.brutman.com/PCjr/pcjr_isa_adapter.html If you are interested give it a read and send me your comments; I'm kind of interested in making sure that I've not written something blatantly wrong. In the interest in keeping the noise level here low please consider whether a comment should be public or off-list ... Thanks, Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 20:13:48 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:13:48 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B661DE.9060105@dunnington.plus.com> References: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> <46B661DE.9060105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > We've tried small generators as backup to small UPs units, and they > don't get on. Big ones are OK, that's the sort of thing they're > designed for. Cripes (again), get a Honda. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 20:15:18 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:15:18 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070805171644.A42717@shell.lmi.net> References: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> <20070805171644.A42717@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > are they made by Lucas? I was thinking about making that joke, until I realized that a Lucas generator probably would not even start. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 21:07:56 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 03:07:56 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0708051019q37a771bk6b22ce0fb26e0ee1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708051907l6477380aj927fb8b0249cbdbf@mail.gmail.com> On 05/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Whereas I'd much prefer London myself, why do you adamantly rule out > > anywhere else, JOOI? It's only a fiver to go to Guildford or somewhere > > like that and most of the SE at least can be done pretty cheaply. > > Becasue I'd want to bring at least one interesting toy along, and that is > not something I'd fancy doing on a train... OK, fair point, but I'm sure someone here could work out transport for you! I've not been active here very long, but you certainly seem like a big name of the CC community and by the sound of it you have a very interesting collection. If it were something small enough that I could transport it by motorcycle, I'd be happy to carry something myself. I doubt I have any kit of my own /remotely/ interesting enough for VCF UK! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 5 21:20:20 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:20:20 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200708060220.l762KSJn049995@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:15:18 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> are they made by Lucas? >I was thinking about making that joke, until I realized that a Lucas >generator probably would not even start. I am sure what ever powered it would definitely leak more oil than it burned, unless it had bad rings, then it might be a close race. Back under my rock :) Bob >-- >Will From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 5 21:20:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:20:06 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope demo fresh from Assembly Message-ID: <46B68556.2090609@oldskool.org> Thought you'd get a kick out of this: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=31592 It's an entire demoscene-style demo done on an oscilloscope. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 22:03:34 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:03:34 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope demo fresh from Assembly In-Reply-To: <46B68556.2090609@oldskool.org> References: <46B68556.2090609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730708052003u1f85bba1y83ef0238f659de16@mail.gmail.com> On 8/5/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Thought you'd get a kick out of this: > > http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=31592 > > It's an entire demoscene-style demo done on an oscilloscope. Is that page supposed to play the vid, youtube-style, or is there a download link that doesn't need a reg? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 5 22:32:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:32:50 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <004a01c7d7c0$8d5159c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <004a01c7d7c0$8d5159c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46B633F2.7340.1498CE9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2007 at 1:27, Ensor wrote: > That wouldn't be the "Sunshine" brand unit by any chance? > > I've got one of those too (along with their PAL programmer from around the > same time) and it won't work in anything newer than an XT. :-( Sounds about right (without dragging it out and looking at it). One of the first purchases I made after purchasing a PC and monitor. The next box was a Taiwanese XT clone with carefully cloned PC ROM BIOS+BASIC in it. None of that "compatible" stuff for me! Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 5 23:19:30 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708051907l6477380aj927fb8b0249cbdbf@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708051019q37a771bk6b22ce0fb26e0ee1@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0708051907l6477380aj927fb8b0249cbdbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070805211836.A49838@shell.lmi.net> On 05/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > Becasue I'd want to bring at least one interesting toy along, and that is > not something I'd fancy doing on a train... If enough people chipped in to rent one, can you drive a lorry? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 5 23:51:26 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? Message-ID: Can someone recommend a source for the 7-pin PCB-mount DIN jacks used for the power jack on a Commodore 64? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 6 00:16:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:16:08 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope demo fresh from Assembly In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708052003u1f85bba1y83ef0238f659de16@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B68556.2090609@oldskool.org> <51ea77730708052003u1f85bba1y83ef0238f659de16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B6AE98.2000802@oldskool.org> Jason T wrote: > On 8/5/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Thought you'd get a kick out of this: >> >> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=31592 >> >> It's an entire demoscene-style demo done on an oscilloscope. > > Is that page supposed to play the vid, youtube-style, or is there a > download link that doesn't need a reg? There is a download link that doesn't require a reg. It's an MP4 file so it will play using quicktime or VLC or whatever you usually play .mp4 files with. I linked to the discussion forum instead of directly to the video file because someone posted the .wav that was used to generate the display, if anyone would like to reproduce it. It's really neat, I highly suggest you check it out... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 6 00:44:06 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:44:06 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope demo fresh from Assembly References: <46B68556.2090609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007c01c7d7ec$ce223330$f3781941@game> Speaking of oscilloscopes, anybody collect the old HP models? Somebody local has a HP Model 130A (serial 525 and above whatever that means) for sale if anyone was interested. I think the 130a was one of HPs first? TZ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 00:50:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 01:50:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0708051013q196da65budf0ef2cb22c06215@mail.gmail.com> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> <575131af0708040930u307d999at521a6102adb52039@mail.gmail.com> <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> <575131af0708051013q196da65budf0ef2cb22c06215@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B6B6B9.8080504@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 04/08/07, woodelf wrote: >> Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> But it will probably come in time. At some point, the now largely >>> SI-based UK will have to adopt SI speed limits and so forth. >> I thought you all traveled by rail over there. :) > > I wish! > > No. Millions do, but most use cars. The snag being that it's a > relatively tiny island and our biggest "freeways" are 4 lanes in each > direction; most major roads are just 1 or 2 lanes. Narrower than much > of Europe, let alone the States. > > Ergo, horrific traffic congestion. 60 million people - one-fifth as > many as the USA - but in one-fortieth of the area, so around 8x the > population density. > > (UK: 60M people, 244,000 sq km. USA: 300M people, 9,600,000 sq km.) That would make more sense if the USA didn't have so many vast tracts with nothing. No people, no buildings, no nothing. It's like China. China is a big country, but most of the people live in a much smaller area. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 6 01:54:22 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:54:22 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070805171644.A42717@shell.lmi.net> References: <46B639B1.1030700@dunnington.plus.com> <20070805171644.A42717@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46B6C59E.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/08/2007 01:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, William Donzelli wrote: >> Cripes, what kind of crummy generators to you Brits have? > > are they made by Lucas? No, I was thinking of Hondas, actually. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Mon Aug 6 04:45:20 2007 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:45:20 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org> <781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070806094519.GB8291@discordance.org.uk> On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 11:31:56AM +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? Half way between Nottingham and Lincoln. -- From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 08:30:42 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 09:30:42 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0708060630m4f05b187l395cd0e165e41e55@mail.gmail.com> On 06/08/07, David Griffith wrote: > Can someone recommend a source for the 7-pin PCB-mount DIN jacks used for > the power jack on a Commodore 64? Could you just use an 8-pin jack (like digi-key A32316-ND) and ignore the middle pin (cut it on the PCB side)? Joe (If you're really in a bind and the above won't work, I can unsolder one I have on a broken C64. Contact me off-list if needed.) From river at zip.com.au Mon Aug 6 05:48:21 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:48:21 +1000 Subject: 8085 vs 8085A In-Reply-To: <200708060213.l762CekG019081@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070806104819.97AAE2741C@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Hi, I was looking through my collection yesterday and was testing out an old Intel SDK85 system. I noticed the main processor is stamped 8085, which means this chip is either an 8085 or the "A" was not printed properly and the chip is really an 8085A. I have a few 8085 systems and a box of 8085 CPUs. I checked them all and every one of them is an 8085A. I don't think I have ever seen an 8085, they've all been 8085A types. Other than the stamp on the chip, is there anyway I can tell the difference between an 8085 and an 8085A? Furthermore, is the 8085 rare, and I should put the chip away, or is it nothing special? Why did Intel bring out the 8085A? Were there issues with the 8085? Seeyuzz River From tim.walls at snowgoons.com Mon Aug 6 09:04:13 2007 From: tim.walls at snowgoons.com (Tim Walls) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:04:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: Pete Turnbull said: > On 05/08/2007 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hire a genny. >> >> How stable is the frequency of such a unit? Remember many larger disk >> drives have their spindle speed set by mains freqeucy. > > To say nothing of the fact that the output is often nothing like a sine > wave, and many devices don't take kindly to that. Thanks to Yorkshire Electricity Distribution Ltd. being bloody useless, I am considerably more intimate with my building's generator than I was a few short weeks ago, so this is a subject close to my heart! Anyway, the long and the short is that gennys certainly can produce reliable power - more reliable than YEDL, anyway. Our unit is an Iveco 6l 4-stroke diseasel driving a MarelliMotori genset, generating 150Kva of 440v 3phase. Output voltage and frequency are programmable, and frequency stability calibration is documented in the manual. Modern gennies would be more than capable of doing the job, and should be readily available for short-term lease. You'd be surprised how quiet and clean-running they are as well. Fuel isn't cheap though; IIRC running it at ~75% load it uses something in the order of 200 litres/day of diesel; it should be OK to use red diesel in a genny I think (for non-UKers - red diesel is diesel on which fuel tax hasn't been paid,) but you're still looking at a fair old cost. Oh, and to answer the original question - I'm up noorf in Yorkshire, although I'd actually prefer such an event to be in London. I'd be interested in going if it does happen, anyway. Cheers, Tim. PS. Word of advice - check the fuel controller pump relay. Nothing more annoying than being woken up at 3am because a poxy 5 quid relay has stuck and caused the header tank to run dry. Voice of bitter experience there ;-). (On the bright side, if that does happen I can now show you how to hand-prime a dry diesel engine :^).) -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 6 12:38:09 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:38:09 -0400 Subject: Running OS-9 on: (Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46B4D465.7080906@saw.net> References: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that davis may have mentioned these words: Ontopically: >.... When I was at intel and radisys... The same Radisys that bought out MicroWare (and subsequently, OS-9)? /me rubs hands greedily and says "Eeeeeeexcellent!" ;-) Still have any contacts there? I've been running OS-9 for a over a couple of decades now, loving every minute of it. I've always had one burning question, tho: Was Basic09 ported to the newer platforms as well, and was it "improved" at all, or is it basically the same it always was? For the 6809 platform, there's a cleanroom freeware port of it called "NitrOS-9" and can be seen here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nitros9/ Way too many questions, so little time. But my lust for OS-9 goes *very deep.* ;-) Offtopically: I have a Fujitsu-built Crusoe laptop - it's made me happy for over 4 years that I didn't buy a Sony. Oddtopically: Anyone know what would be the chance of getting OS-9 running on said laptop? It's x86 on the outside, VLIW on the inside, but I have no idea if OS-9 would come anywhere close to supporting the hardware (video/lcd/ethernet/etc.) Answers to this offlist, please. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 05:33:01 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 11:33:01 +0100 Subject: A single-board Amiga 500 clone on an FPGA Message-ID: <575131af0708060333y75852c03tedba9b714d4dc928@mail.gmail.com> The Minimig: http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/minimig.html I've read about this before but it all appears to be working now. Impressive achievement, I feel. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 05:31:47 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 11:31:47 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <46B6B6B9.8080504@gmail.com> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> <575131af0708040930u307d999at521a6102adb52039@mail.gmail.com> <46B4B24F.2040801@jetnet.ab.ca> <575131af0708051013q196da65budf0ef2cb22c06215@mail.gmail.com> <46B6B6B9.8080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708060331v5369f301l4dddb7080afc7a3a@mail.gmail.com> On 06/08/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > I wish! > > > > No. Millions do, but most use cars. The snag being that it's a > > relatively tiny island and our biggest "freeways" are 4 lanes in each > > direction; most major roads are just 1 or 2 lanes. Narrower than much > > of Europe, let alone the States. > > > > Ergo, horrific traffic congestion. 60 million people - one-fifth as > > many as the USA - but in one-fortieth of the area, so around 8x the > > population density. > > > > (UK: 60M people, 244,000 sq km. USA: 300M people, 9,600,000 sq km.) > > That would make more sense if the USA didn't have so many vast tracts > with nothing. No people, no buildings, no nothing. It's like China. > China is a big country, but most of the people live in a much smaller area. Yup. I've flown over a lot of it, but it's hard to grasp. China, by comparison, is about the same size as the US, but has some 4.5 times as many people. So it's much more densely populated, but only about half as much so as Britain! But in my fairly extensive travels around Western Europe and sketchy ones in the USA and China, European roads and cities tend to spread out and sprawl much more widely than British ones, and American ones more widely than continental European ones still. China has thronged, amazingly dense cities, but also, these days, a seriously impressively scaled mass transport system. /Huge/ roads and bridges and railways and so on. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 6 10:46:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:46:50 -0600 Subject: Seattle cctalk'ers Message-ID: I'm going to be up in Seattle next week on Sun/Mon/Tue for the Microsoft GameFest developer event. I think there's some time on one of the evenings where there isn't a party scheduled :-). Anyone care to meet for a beer or something? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 13:20:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:20:19 -0400 Subject: Running OS-9 on: (Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> References: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <7ACABE0B-1682-4F58-B7C0-9548288848EB@neurotica.com> On Aug 6, 2007, at 1:38 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I've been running OS-9 for a over a couple of decades now, loving > every minute of it. Please forgive me for jumping in, but I have a question. I've never had a chance to play with OS-9. What would be the easiest way to get started, meaning, what hardware should I look for, and where might I find the software? I have a CoCo (actually two, both an original and a 2) but no mass storage.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 6 14:01:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:01:01 -0600 Subject: Running OS-9 on: (Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <7ACABE0B-1682-4F58-B7C0-9548288848EB@neurotica.com> References: <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> <7ACABE0B-1682-4F58-B7C0-9548288848EB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B76FED.9060603@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Please forgive me for jumping in, but I have a question. I've never > had a chance to play with OS-9. What would be the easiest way to get > started, meaning, what hardware should I look for, and where might I > find the software? > > I have a CoCo (actually two, both an original and a 2) but no mass > storage.. Well you do need mass storage for a real OS, and the COCO disk drive is very questionable mass storage. The hardest part is nobody can sell you a disk with OS/9 on it since the OS/9 is not supported anymore.(1) Here is the FAQ on OS/9 http://os9archive.rtsi.com/os9faq.html > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > (1)If you can find a better 6809 system than a COCO/Dragon it may already have OS/9 with it. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 6 14:25:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:25:30 -0700 Subject: 8085 vs 8085A In-Reply-To: <20070806104819.97AAE2741C@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> References: <200708060213.l762CekG019081@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20070806104819.97AAE2741C@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <46B7133A.24535.1801026B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2007 at 20:48, river wrote: > Why did Intel bring out the 8085A? Were there issues with the 8085? I don't think that 8085's aren't particularly rare; basically the original NMOS implementation. The 8085A fixed a few bugs--IIRC, there were some issues in device selection timing (easily fixed with a little "glue") and it seems to me that there was also a strange race condition among the RST x.5 and TRAP interrupts. Maybe someone remembers--the 8085a came along pretty quickly after the 8085. Far better than either of the NMOS versions, however are the -AH HCMOS models. Faster clocks and much lower power drain. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 14:31:13 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? Message-ID: <956133.56512.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I've been playing with some machines I haven't had time for before (not that I really have time now, but that's beside the point), and I was able to fire up the MicroVax II's. I have two of them, one in an official DEC enclosure, and one in a third party cabinet. They both "work" after a little cajoling, but neither boots from disk. The third party cabinet Vax has a screeching ESDI disk (sounds like a head crash) on an Emulex controller, and the DEC cabinet Vax has an RD53 on an RQDX3, and it sounds as if the rubber bumper has glued the heads to the stops. I have other ESDI disks, and one other Micropolis drive (non DEC)- I want to attempt to format and test some of them on the Vaxen. I plan on attempting to repair the RD53, but I'd like to be able to format and test disks, since I need to scare up a replacement for the other Vax. I have heard tales of a magical diagnostic tape that exists for these machines. Both Vaxen have TK50's, and I have one TK50 cartridge (jammed in one of the TK50's... Gotta free that tonight). I also have, IIRC, a SCSI TK50 (gotta dig that out tonight as well). So, is there any way of creating a diagnostic tape for these MicroVax II's? Is there an archive somewhere out on the 'net of tape dumps? Thanks! -Ian From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 14:39:57 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an 8" drive Message-ID: <234352.90164.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Anyone with a 8 inch drive available. I'd prefer DS/DD but frankly anything considered. I'm trying to put together an external 8" drive for a PC to allow archiving of 8" disks. Reply of list. Many thanks. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 6 15:18:11 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:18:11 -0400 Subject: Running OS-9 on: (Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <7ACABE0B-1682-4F58-B7C0-9548288848EB@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806144840.037e20d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >On Aug 6, 2007, at 1:38 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>I've been running OS-9 for a over a couple of decades now, loving >>every minute of it. > > Please forgive me for jumping in, but I have a question. I've >never had a chance to play with OS-9. What would be the easiest way >to get started, meaning, what hardware should I look for, and where >might I find the software? Hardware: If you have access to unlimited funds, I'd go with a 512K CoCo3 (80-columns shore is nice! ;-) a monitor to use said 80-col. mode or Roy's RGB to SVGA adaptor which works well, and one of Cloud-9's SuperIDE adapters, which can handle 2 drives, but if you wish to use a CF card as a drive, it has an adapter built-in. Small, compact system with the ability to have big mass storage... 1G CF cards are awfully cheap nowadays. http://www.cloud9tech.com/ If you don't, I'd still go with a CoCo3 (even if only in 40-col mode) and either a DSDD floppy drive, which can be found pretty cheap... or Cloud-9's DriveWire, which emulates a floppy and/or hard drive on a PC with a serial port. IMHO, a floppy is still slightly faster, but for the amount of storage you have accessible with it, it's a bargain. For software, go here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nitros9/ Click the download link, and for your CoCo1/2 machines, you'd need the 6809L1v030206.zip (Level 1, runs in 64K) link, for a "normal" CoCo3, you'd need 6809L2v030206.zip (Level 2, takes 128/512K & HiRes), for a CoCo3 upgraded with the Hitachi 6309, you'd need 6309L2v030206.zip. It's released under the GPL, so you can find source & everything. > I have a CoCo (actually two, both an original and a 2) but no mass >storage.. You'd need a floppy drive of some sort - they can be had pretty inexpensively nowadays, or one of the solutions I'd listed above. =-=-=-=-= And... Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Well you do need mass storage for a real OS, and the COCO disk >drive is very questionable mass storage. Why? The controller can support 720K DSDD 3.5" drives, and OS-9 has the drivers for them - I've found RS drive hardware no less reliable than the other manufacturers of the day... Even then, 180K (SSDD 40 track) is still enough to do "real work" - I had a boot disk with Rogue (think: nethack), Dynacalc (spreadsheet program), TS-Edit (word processor - think: vi) and a few other apps all on a 180K disk. ... Unless you were talking about the "Mass" part and were referring to today's mega-gig drives... but even then, I'd think OS-9's support of up to 4G partitions is better than a lot of other machines of the period. >The hardest part is nobody can sell you a disk with OS/9 on it >since the OS/9 is not supported anymore.(1) No, but NitrOS-9 is - see link above. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 6 15:31:28 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A single-board Amiga 500 clone on an FPGA In-Reply-To: <575131af0708060333y75852c03tedba9b714d4dc928@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Aug 06, 2007 11:33:01 AM Message-ID: <200708062031.l76KVSRW003793@onyx.spiritone.com> > The Minimig: > http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/minimig.html > > I've read about this before but it all appears to be working now. > Impressive achievement, I feel. I've been following this ever since the first mention of it, it is a most impressive piece of work. I could swear that at one time there was mention of "Individual Computers" (they make the Catweasel boards) producing the Minimig, does anyone know anything about this? What suprised me was that he has a link on his page to a project that I find even more interesting, and that I've not heard of (well, that part isn't so suprising). The 1541-III http://jderogee.tripod.com/ is a replacement for the 1541 using MMC/SD cards. It looks pretty cool. Zane From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 6 16:26:10 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:26:10 -0600 Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <956133.56512.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <956133.56512.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B791F2.2010800@e-bbes.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I have other ESDI disks, and one other Micropolis > drive (non DEC)- I want to attempt to format and test > some of them on the Vaxen. I plan on attempting to > repair the RD53, but I'd like to be able to format and > test disks, since I need to scare up a replacement for > the other Vax. The emulex boards should have onboard formatters for the ESDI drives. No need for the "diagnostic tape" > I have heard tales of a magical diagnostic tape that > exists for these machines. Tales they are ;-) With the diagnostic tape, you can format formatted drives. If you really like to format a MFM disk for a VAX, use a pdp11 with XXDP, or a microVAX 2000. Good luck P.S. Go ESDI, if you have the drives already ... From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 6 17:03:02 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:03:02 -0600 Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <956133.56512.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <956133.56512.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B79A96.90504@srv.net> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I've been playing with some machines I haven't > had time for before (not that I really have time now, > but that's beside the point), and I was able to fire > up the MicroVax II's. I have two of them, one in an > official DEC enclosure, and one in a third party > cabinet. They both "work" after a little cajoling, but > neither boots from disk. The third party cabinet Vax > has a screeching ESDI disk (sounds like a head crash) > Check the bottom of the drive where the spindle is. Sometimes there is a copper "ground" spring that touches the spindle, and it can make horrible noises (it's a really stupid design). Seen the design on RD54's and other drives. Usually the disk is Ok, just noisy. If so, pull it away and see if the noise stops. > on an Emulex controller, and the DEC cabinet Vax has > an RD53 on an RQDX3, and it sounds as if the rubber > RD53's are usually more trouble than their worth. They seem to have more failure modes than any other drive available. > bumper has glued the heads to the stops. > > I have other ESDI disks, and one other Micropolis > drive (non DEC)- I want to attempt to format and test > some of them on the Vaxen. I plan on attempting to > repair the RD53, but I'd like to be able to format and > test disks, since I need to scare up a replacement for > the other Vax. > The ESDI drives often had the formatter built into the controller ROMs. You just had to tickle it appropriately, and it would format. You'll need a manual for your specific controller to find out the procedure. Check bitsavers to see if they have a copy of the manual. I don't think the diagnostic tape is able to format anything that isn't on a standard DEC controller. > I have heard tales of a magical diagnostic tape that > exists for these machines. Both Vaxen have TK50's, and > I have one TK50 cartridge (jammed in one of the > TK50's... Gotta free that tonight). I also have, IIRC, > If it doesn't unload when you power it on with the button out and the door closed, then you're going to have problems getting it out. Frequently the internal leader breaks, and it wraps around the take up spool. In such cases, remove the aluminum cover, rethread and hook the remains of the hook at the appropriate position, then the tape will release. If the tape is fully in the case, then you can manipulate a seloniod at the side of the drive (gold case and white plastic iirc) to release the tape. Replacement leaders used to be available, but... > a SCSI TK50 (gotta dig that out tonight as well). So, > is there any way of creating a diagnostic tape for > these MicroVax II's? Is there an archive somewhere out > on the 'net of tape dumps? > Special tape, held close by the Field Service techs. I don't know if it's available. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 6 17:34:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <46B791F2.2010800@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Aug 06, 2007 03:26:10 PM Message-ID: <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I have heard tales of a magical diagnostic tape that > > exists for these machines. > > Tales they are ;-) > With the diagnostic tape, you can format formatted drives. If you really > like to format a MFM disk for a VAX, use a pdp11 with XXDP, or a > microVAX 2000. Remember there are two different types of Diag tapes, one is the Customer Tape, the other is the FE Tape. ISTR that the FE tape can format unformatted drives. Personally I'd recommend going with either ESDI, SDI, or SCSI controllers. I know my Webster WQESD/04 board is a very nice ESDI board that I'd be tempted to go with. Additionally there were third party MFM controllers, and I believe they could format drives (not sure though). Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 6 17:49:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:49:14 -0600 Subject: Running OS-9 on: (Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806144840.037e20d0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <915093.31864.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070806123755.036ca370@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070806144840.037e20d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46B7A56A.4010907@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > And... Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: *NO RUMOR* I said them! >> Well you do need mass storage for a real OS, and the COCO disk >> drive is very questionable mass storage. > Why? The controller can support 720K DSDD 3.5" drives, and OS-9 has the > drivers for them - I've found RS drive hardware no less reliable than > the other manufacturers of the day... I think I had 360K, DSDD but only one floppy. Not the greatest for compiling C programs.I tended to bump the controller every so often so I was not impressed with rom slot used for the expansion bus. > Even then, 180K (SSDD 40 track) is still enough to do "real work" - I > had a boot disk with Rogue (think: nethack), Dynacalc (spreadsheet > program), TS-Edit (word processor - think: vi) and a few other apps all > on a 180K disk. > No, but NitrOS-9 is - see link above. No coco here, so I never dug around the page for downloads. From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Aug 6 18:07:00 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:07:00 -0500 Subject: Looking for an 8" drive In-Reply-To: <234352.90164.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070806180551.0da842c0@localhost> I'm thinking of putting my two 8" drives up on eBay. I haven't looked at them for years, I suspect they're 801's or 802's. Are you looking to purchase drive(s)? At 12:39 PM 8/6/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone with a 8 inch drive available. I'd prefer >DS/DD but frankly anything considered. I'm trying >to put together an external 8" drive for a PC to >allow archiving of 8" disks. > >Reply of list. > >Many thanks. > >Ian. > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Need a vacation? Get great deals >to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. >http://travel.yahoo.com/ ----- 924. "There are many things we do not want about the world. Let us not just mourn them. Let us change them." --Ferdinand E. Marcos --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 18:16:39 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 16:16:39 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <46B791F2.2010800@e-bbes.com> <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708061616x6be3f4c1h3e82c8c99df896e4@mail.gmail.com> On 8/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Personally I'd recommend going with either ESDI, SDI, or SCSI controllers. > I know my Webster WQESD/04 board is a very nice ESDI board that I'd be > tempted to go with. > I have also had good luck with Q-bus ESDI controllers and every flavor I have working has on board diagnostics for formatting and verifying drives. The one exception is an Andromeda ESDC Q-Bus ESDI controller, for which I lack a manual. Anyone have a manual for this controller? Did Megan disappear off of the list? Old messages indicate she had a manual for this controller. -Glen From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Aug 6 18:28:42 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 16:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF or equivalent Message-ID: Ok, back again to clear up some misperceptions. 1) Yes, I am subscribed to the list, but I have message delivery turned off. I still just don't have time to plow through the dozens of messages a day this list generates. I really would like to re-join the discussion as a regular but time prevents this. 2) I do scan the archives regularly to see what people are discussing. >From time to time I chime in. Invariably, someone (willfully or otherwise) misinterprets what I say, and chaos ensues. Sigh. 3) Gordon Pearce: > I would call it something completely different if I was going to run > one. If people are going to get all precious about their valuable > trademarks then sod 'em. I'm not getting "precious". I've put a lot of time, energy and MONEY into developing the Vintage Computer Festival. If someone wants to put on an event that celebrates vintage computers, fine! More power to you!!! Just don't use the name "Vintage Computer Festival" unless it's actually organized under the tutelage of the VCF. *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but find your own name. > Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite > someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? I would love to, Gordon. Perhaps you'd like to offer to be the local coordinator? As I've said numerous times previously (why do some people seem to miss this part?) I am always happy to expand the VCF to locations throughout the world, where ever there is enough interest to have an event where enough people will attend to justify the enormous commitment of time and money that is involved. I will share with you my hard won experience and secrets in pulling off a successful event, share my large list of contacts to help book speakers, help attract and organize exhibitors and vendors, get the word out through the VCF mailing list, help with advertising, and even help with financing. 4) Jules Richardson: > I suspect a lot of people will underestimate the time, money and effort > needed to organise and promote something like this. Anything making that > a little easier seems invaluable. Indeed. Between the first two events I lost something like US$5,000. Aside from some occasional monetary sponsorship throughout the years (totalling maybe US$3,000) the event is completely financed by me and/or the local coordinators. The key is to find a venue sponsor: i.e. someone that would be willing to give you a space to hold the event for free or for very cheap. Otherwise, the admission you have to charge regular attendees and the fees you would have to charge exhibitors and vendors would be too high. Even in the early days I didn't believe charging too much for admission because I want as many people to attend as possible. Admission to the VCF has always been cheap (I think the most ever charged was $15 per person per day). The matter of TIME is the bigger expense. People don't realize how many little things need to get done, and how all those little things add up to hours and days and sometimes weeks of time. As an aside, I've had numerous discussions with Jules and Adrian Graham over the years regarding a VCF UK, but so far the stars have not aligned properly due to various issues and constraints (usually those dealing with TIME). All it takes is one person to say, "I will do it". Once that happens, the ball starts rolling: a date is selected, an announcement is made, and then it's just a matter of filling the blanks. So, again, if anyone is interested, just say the magic phrase ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 17:44:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 23:44:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: DOuble-stepping BBC drives In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708051359g71b8bb4dhea9f50e95c6a0ddd@mail.gmail.com> from "Rob" at Aug 5, 7 09:59:07 pm Message-ID: > > I have a BBC B+ with (1770)DFS (V2.x)( and ADFS (V3.5x) (or at least I > > think those version numbers are right). It is cabled up to a single 80 > > cylinder double-sided disk drive. > > > > I wish to read some files of a 40 cylinder (DFS) disk. I seem to remember > > there was a command that would cause the drive to double-step, but only > > allow reading. What is it? > > > > In 1770 DFS, > > *DRIVE 0 40 Thansks, that's exactly what I was looking for, and now you've prompted me, I remember that's what I used before ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 17:47:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 23:47:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46B661DE.9060105@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 6, 7 00:48:46 am Message-ID: > We've tried small generators as backup to small UPs units, and they > don't get on. Big ones are OK, that's the sort of thing they're > designed for. What do you mean by 'large' and 'small'? For a VCF-like event, I would expect one of those large units that's trasported on a lorry, the sort of thing you use for a large outdoor concert, or an entire (large) building site, not one of those little things you pick up with one hand and give you 13A (@240V) if you're lucky. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 17:51:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 23:51:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <004a01c7d7c0$8d5159c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Aug 6, 7 01:27:20 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > I've also got an ancient Taiwanese one that works only with > >a PC XT that will handle 2708s. > > That wouldn't be the "Sunshine" brand unit by any chance? > > I've got one of those too (along with their PAL programmer from around the > same time) and it won't work in anything newer than an XT. :-( Why is that a disdvantage _on this list_? Surely original IBM PC/XT machines are not hard to find (are they?) and they're certainly repairable... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 18:35:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:35:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070805171644.A42717@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 5, 7 05:17:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > > Cripes, what kind of crummy generators to you Brits have? > > are they made by Lucas? What is this about hating Lucas over there? I've been working on my father's cars for over 35 years, and I've had very few problems from Lucas electrics (fitted on all but 2 of the cars). Apart from service items (contact breaker points, etc), the only thing I had to replace was one regulator module (the pass transistor had shorted -- I had the schematics, I knew exactly which component had gone, but it was a potted module..) Conersely, I had t oreplace a Mitsubishi regualtor/brushbox module (brushes wore out), rebuild a Mitsubishi starter motor (brushes stuck in the guides), and repair a VAG-group (maybe Bosch) windscreen washer pump (IMHO it was badly moulded, and didn't fit together properly so it leaked spectacularly, Adding a Jubilee clip and a couple of cable ties cured that). OK, its a very small sample, but it does show that not all Lucas electrical devices fail. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 18:37:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:37:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <007501c7d7c2$68c1ff40$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Aug 6, 7 01:40:38 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > IMHO, more important than the EPROM programmer is an > >EPROM emulator.... > > Good point, and the exact reason I picked up a "Softy S3" about 10 years > back (which is in SERIOUS need of TLC unfortunately). I rememebr seeing the adverts for that -- and drooling :-). Alas I was an undergraduate at the time, and no way could I afford one, so I built my own programmer/emulator. 3 large boards of TTL chips (I couldn't use a processor, what could I have programmed the firmware with :-)). I do have the original Softy somwhere. SC/MP based, TV output, programs 2708s. I can't rememebr if it emulatrs as well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 18:41:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:41:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070805211836.A49838@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 5, 7 09:19:30 pm Message-ID: > If enough people chipped in to rent one, can you drive a lorry? No, I can't drive any form of vehicle... I repair them, I don't use them :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 18:40:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:40:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708051907l6477380aj927fb8b0249cbdbf@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Aug 6, 7 03:07:56 am Message-ID: > OK, fair point, but I'm sure someone here could work out transport for > you! I've not been active here very long, but you certainly seem like > a big name of the CC community and by the sound of it you have a very Alas I don't think I am... > interesting collection. Well, much of my collection is very standard stuff (Is there _any_ UK collector who doesn't have BBC micros everywhere :-)). But I do have a few quite interesting machines... > > If it were something small enough that I could transport it by > motorcycle, I'd be happy to carry something myself. I doubt I have any Thanks for your offer, but if your motorbike is normal-sized, I would think that anything (size/weight) that could be safely carried on it, could also be carried by hand. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 19:21:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:21:03 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I halfway suspect this, but the description does not match ("blue on > bottom, white on top"). > > I will see if I can get the guy to take a cell-phone picture. Turned out to be 3420s. Oh well. -- Will From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Aug 6 19:48:53 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:48:53 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <46B791F2.2010800@e-bbes.com> <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200708070049.l770mrx1016764@mail.itm-inst.com> At 06:34 PM 8/6/2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I have heard tales of a magical diagnostic tape that > > > exists for these machines. > > > > Tales they are ;-) > > With the diagnostic tape, you can format formatted drives. If you > really > > like to format a MFM disk for a VAX, use a pdp11 with XXDP, or a > > microVAX 2000. > >Remember there are two different types of Diag tapes, one is the Customer >Tape, the other is the FE Tape. ISTR that the FE tape can format >unformatted drives. That's correct, the FS diags can format unformatted drives. I have one of those tapes as well as a set of FS diagnostic floppy disks (RX50s.) However, they'll only work with DEC-equivalent drives on DEC controllers. XT2190s (RD54s) aren't cheap, they're noisy as hell, and aren't very big. The RD53s are junk and even smaller. (I had several that wouldn't spin up, no evidence of the widely reported sticky rubber bumper. Removing the bumper didn't fix the drives.) As several people have pointed out, you're far better off with non-DEC storage controllers and devices. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 6 20:01:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:01:34 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <004a01c7d7c0$8d5159c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Aug 6, 7 01:27:20 am, Message-ID: <46B761FE.8287.42B694@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2007 at 23:51, Tony Duell wrote: > Why is that a disdvantage _on this list_? Surely original IBM PC/XT > machines are not hard to find (are they?) and they're certainly repairable... I don't mind using one to burn the occasional EPROM, but I like to have my development tools networked (not sneakernet) and networking with an XT, while possible, is kind of sucky, particularly if you need memory for other things... Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 20:59:33 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 02:59:33 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0708051907l6477380aj927fb8b0249cbdbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708061859gbc1078cs3cd08370b6a04372@mail.gmail.com> On 07/08/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > OK, fair point, but I'm sure someone here could work out transport for > > you! I've not been active here very long, but you certainly seem like > > a big name of the CC community and by the sound of it you have a very > > Alas I don't think I am... > > > interesting collection. > > Well, much of my collection is very standard stuff (Is there _any_ UK > collector who doesn't have BBC micros everywhere :-)). But I do have a > few quite interesting machines... > > > > > If it were something small enough that I could transport it by > > motorcycle, I'd be happy to carry something myself. I doubt I have any > > Thanks for your offer, but if your motorbike is normal-sized, I would > think that anything (size/weight) that could be safely carried on it, > could also be carried by hand. It's not. It's a trike. If I can fit it in my fairly modest luggage capacity or otherwise strap it on the back seat and it's <5' wide, it's probably doable. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 6 21:17:20 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006501c7d899$172cb3f0$eb4df945@evan> >>> Yes, I am subscribed to the list Gasp... I was... wrong! >>> The matter of TIME is the bigger expense. People don't realize how many little things need to get done, and how all those little things add up to hours and days and sometimes weeks of time. I wish it only took weeks! Months is more like it. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 6 21:41:33 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 21:41:33 -0500 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent References: <006501c7d899$172cb3f0$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <002101c7d89c$7836e5f0$6600a8c0@JWEST> *sigh* stop throwing down the gauntlet folks. We are all working towards the same thing, right? Jay From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 22:01:10 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <46B79A96.90504@srv.net> Message-ID: <867450.84653.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I managed to unjam the TK50 drive and get the cartridge out - it took some fiddleing, manually rewinding the tape with the screw hole in the bottom a bit, powering up, it would seek back and forth, then start to rewind, go a ways, then stop. Lather, rinse, repeat about three times, and then it got stuck right before the unload cycle. Manually rewound the last few inches and unlatched/removed the cartridge. The leader looks OK, but the cartridge is a little "crinkly" sounding - I think it must have jammed up in there somehow. Anyway, I don't think this tape is going to be useable. The closest thing I had lying around is a DLTTape IIIxt cartridge - which, by creative people who must have thought of this before, doesn't fit. Little tabs on the left of the tape prevent it from being inserted all the way. So, I'll sort through tape drives and see if I can find the SCSI TK50 I think that I have. Either way, I have three DEC interface TK50's - so I should have one that I can make work. I'll try messing with the Emulex controller system first, especially if I can make it load internal diagnostics. I have several ESDI drives kicking around I can put into service. The one that's in there certainally sounds "crashed" but I'll try and see if it can work at all. I don't see anything dragging on the motor externally. It's a CDC Wren something-or-other drive. As far as the RD53 on the stock DEC Vax, I dismantled the drive and unjammed the heads. It now spins up and performs a head load, and stays spinning. The Vax still won't boot though, although it doesn't give me any errors on the console. It gets to "2...", and the "READY" lamp on the front of the Vax blinks a bit, pauses, blinks a bit more, then stays on. I'd like to try reformatting it and see if it works. I know that the MFM based drives are old, and probably unreliable, but I have several, and I'm not at all against using them if I can get something to run. -Ian From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 22:37:23 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:37:23 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope demo fresh from Assembly In-Reply-To: <46B6AE98.2000802@oldskool.org> References: <46B68556.2090609@oldskool.org> <51ea77730708052003u1f85bba1y83ef0238f659de16@mail.gmail.com> <46B6AE98.2000802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730708062037p44eb76c8va4a01291a58b902a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/6/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > There is a download link that doesn't require a reg. It's an MP4 file > so it will play using quicktime or VLC or whatever you usually play .mp4 > files with. > > I linked to the discussion forum instead of directly to the video file > because someone posted the .wav that was used to generate the display, > if anyone would like to reproduce it. > > It's really neat, I highly suggest you check it out... Amazing....I couldn't figure out how it was done until I saw the part about 'scope being in X-Y mode. Still, I have questions... As for the file, Quicktime didn't like it for whatever reason. VLC played it fine. Way cool! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 22:46:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOuble-stepping BBC drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070806204536.M3810@shell.lmi.net> > > In 1770 DFS, > > *DRIVE 0 40 just curious: How would you tell the system that the drive is 40 track, not 80 track in need of double stepping? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 22:56:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070806204737.I3810@shell.lmi.net> > > On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Cripes, what kind of crummy generators to you Brits have? > > are they made by Lucas? I am to blame for the slur against Lucas, not William. On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > What is this about hating Lucas over there? In the 1970s, I had extensive experience with auto repair, including very poor reliability of 1960s and early 1970s Lucas electrics. They may very well have improved significantly since then, in which case I apologize for the nasty comment. In addition, in the early 1970s, Japanese cars seemed to have significantly better gasket technology that anybody else, leading to the equally nasty: "The only times [insert favorite here] doesn't leak oil is before the factory fills it, and after it all leaks out." > OK, its a very small sample, but it does show that not all Lucas > electrical devices fail. And my sample is only ones exported to the USA in 1960s and 1970s. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Aug 7 02:52:34 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 08:52:34 +0100 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005501c7d8c7$eaa7de70$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > Message: 11 > From: Adrian Burgess > Subject: Re: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? > > Half way between Nottingham and Lincoln. > UK, Aldershot, Hampshire Mike. From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 03:11:07 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 01:11:07 -0700 Subject: 8085 vs 8085A References: <20070806104819.97AAE2741C@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <000901c7d8ca$834fffc0$0201a8c0@hal9000> > Hi, > > I was looking through my collection yesterday and was testing out an old > Intel SDK85 system. I noticed the main processor is stamped 8085, which > means this chip is either an 8085 or the "A" was not printed properly and > the chip is really an 8085A. > > I have a few 8085 systems and a box of 8085 CPUs. I checked them all and > every one of them is an 8085A. I don't think I have ever seen an 8085, > they've all been 8085A types. > > Other than the stamp on the chip, is there anyway I can tell the difference > between an 8085 and an 8085A? Furthermore, is the 8085 rare, and I should > put the chip away, or is it nothing special? > > Why did Intel bring out the 8085A? Were there issues with the 8085? > > Seeyuzz > River There were multiple versions of 8085 microprocessors. The original version of the 8085 microprocessor without suffix "A" was manufactured by Intel only, and was very quickly replaced with 8085A containing bug fixes. A few years after that, around 1980, Intel introduced 8085AH - HMOS version of 8085A. There was also 80C85A - CMOS version of the 8085A. It's not clear if 80C85 was ever manufactured by Intel or not, but it was produced by at least two second source manufacturers - OKI and Tundra Semiconductor. Tundra Semiconductor manufactured the fastest 8085 microprocessor running at 8 MHz. Second source manufacturers: AMD, Mitsubishi, NEC, OKI, Siemens, Toshiba. Best regards, Steven C. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 07:44:21 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 08:44:21 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070806204737.I3810@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070806204737.I3810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I am to blame for the slur against Lucas, not William. But I will happily slur Lucas. The few pieces I have had that were Lucas were JUNK (and they were mil-spec!). Poorly engineered, poorly made, and full of problems. -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 7 08:43:46 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 09:43:46 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200708071343.l77DhsXd098859@keith.ezwind.net> In the last 35 years I have had the following: MGA, MGB, AH-Mk2 Sprite, ans several Lotus including a Super-7, and a BSA 650 lightning. and worked on Jag's, Jensons, and most of the Layland product line as a grease monkey in the 70's and eraly 80's At one point in time I managed a Lotus/TVR dealorship on the west side of chicago. I joke about Lucas electrics mostly due to the high price and shortage of spares on this side of the pound. BUT as for leakers, thats no joke, I have seen oil drip pans under new cars in the showroom. Back under my rock... The other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 7 09:02:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:02:12 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I halfway suspect this, but the description does not match ("blue on >> bottom, white on top"). >> >> I will see if I can get the guy to take a cell-phone picture. > > Turned out to be 3420s. Oh well. You say that as if it's a bad thing! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 09:16:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:16:41 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > You say that as if it's a bad thing! 3420s are all coming out of the woodwork now, and are not all that hard to get. In a few years, this will not be the case. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 7 09:59:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:59:59 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Aug 7, 2007, at 10:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> You say that as if it's a bad thing! > > 3420s are all coming out of the woodwork now, and are not all that > hard to get. > > In a few years, this will not be the case. I love living in Florida, but the total lack of interesting hardware is damn painful sometimes. I'd love to adopt a few 3420s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Aug 7 10:08:45 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:08:45 -0500 Subject: Where are we? Was Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 In-Reply-To: <005501c7d8c7$eaa7de70$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> At 08:52 AM 8/7/2007 +0100, you wrote: >>Message: 11 >>From: Adrian Burgess >>Subject: Re: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? >>Half way between Nottingham and Lincoln. > >UK, Aldershot, Hampshire >Mike. In the heart of the frozen mid-west: 10 miles west of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA. ----- 479. [Commentary] Despite of the cost of living, it remains popular. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 10:17:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:17:17 -0400 Subject: Where are we? Was Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> Message-ID: <46B88CFD.8080905@gmail.com> Tom Peters wrote: > At 08:52 AM 8/7/2007 +0100, you wrote: >>> Message: 11 >>> From: Adrian Burgess >>> Subject: Re: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? >>> Half way between Nottingham and Lincoln. >> >> UK, Aldershot, Hampshire >> Mike. > > In the heart of the frozen mid-west: 10 miles west of Milwaukee, > Wisconsin, USA. Poughkeepsie, NY, USA. Home of the IBM Mainframe. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 10:22:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 08:22:34 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity Message-ID: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com> I was looking at a bunch of Tandon TM100-4M floppy drives that I've had for a (very) long time and saw something that never registered with me before. On the underside of the disk release latch (on the faceplate), a small silver sticker. Most say "100 TPI DSR", but about one in every 4 says "96 TPI DSR". All drives are 100 TPI TM-100-4Ms, BTW as identified on the body sticker. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 10:30:58 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:30:58 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I love living in Florida, but the total lack of interesting > hardware is damn painful sometimes. I'd love to adopt a few 3420s. Stuff pops up in Atlanta from time to time - that is a reasonable distance from you. And really, nobody seems to live where the good things show up. Whatever it is, its on the other side of the state/country/world. -- Will From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 7 10:50:25 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:50:25 -0500 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B894C1.8030202@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I love living in Florida, but the total lack of interesting >>hardware is damn painful sometimes. I'd love to adopt a few 3420s. > > > Stuff pops up in Atlanta from time to time - that is a reasonable > distance from you. > > And really, nobody seems to live where the good things show up. > Whatever it is, its on the other side of the state/country/world. Ahem. Dave McG. will probably attest to the fact that I literally stumble over Good Stuff all the time. I've snatched PDP-11s, innumerable VAXen, a Convergent CT-001 (Burroughs N-GEN box), Amigas, Kaypros, sbus and 68K Suns, Ataris, an Altos 580-15, you name it, from various scrappers around here. I once missed a VAXstation I, complete with keyboard, mouse, and display, because I was on my motorcycle. By the time I got back it was gone - from the neighborhood thrift store. Austin, Texas is a gold mine for "obsolete" electronic equipment. I keep thinking it'll dry up, and it just keeps coming. Doc From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 11:19:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:19:13 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B894C1.8030202@mdrconsult.com> References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> <46B894C1.8030202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Dave McG. will probably attest to the fact that I literally stumble > over Good Stuff all the time. > > I've snatched PDP-11s, innumerable VAXen, a Convergent CT-001 > (Burroughs N-GEN box), Amigas, Kaypros, sbus and 68K Suns, Ataris, an > Altos 580-15, you name it, from various scrappers around here. I will chalk this up as a "difference in standards". "Good things" to me means really obscure or rare mainframe or minicomputer items. Only a few PDP-11s would fall into this category (blinkenlight models, basically), and almost no VAX machines (except a 9000). Suns? I could built a house with all the Suns that turn up. Unless it is a Sun-1, I am generally unimpressed and will pass. Same with Kaypros, Amigas, Altos, etc. OK, a snobbish attitude, I will admit it. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 12:08:48 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <450278.19711.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I will chalk this up as a "difference in standards". > "Good things" to > me means really obscure or rare mainframe or > minicomputer items. > Suns? I could built a house with all the Suns that > turn up. Heh - well, for a while there I found tons and tons of older SparcStations - 5's mostly. I used to joke about building an addition to my hosue out of them. But lately Sun hardware has been pretty thin on the ground. Sparcstations turn up now and again, but Sun3 or VME based Sun4's are nearly unobtanium, and I've never even seen a Sun2. All this stuff goes in cycles, you have to take care not to pass up on too much stuff before it's all gone. > OK, a snobbish attitude, I will admit it. Hehe - maybe a bit - but hey, different people have different interests. That's what makes computer collecting fun. -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 12:39:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:39:41 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B8AE5D.6060103@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I love living in Florida, but the total lack of interesting >> hardware is damn painful sometimes. I'd love to adopt a few 3420s. > > Stuff pops up in Atlanta from time to time - that is a reasonable > distance from you. > > And really, nobody seems to live where the good things show up. > Whatever it is, its on the other side of the state/country/world. I live where mainframes show up. *shrug* Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 7 12:47:13 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:47:13 -0700 Subject: Weird IBMs References: <200708031501.l73F1mKA060499@keith.ezwind.net> <75561B44-52E0-4650-97EE-834147B1DA07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46B8B020.CED2AAEA@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2007, at 10:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> You say that as if it's a bad thing! > > > > 3420s are all coming out of the woodwork now, and are not all that > > hard to get. > > > > In a few years, this will not be the case. > > I love living in Florida, but the total lack of interesting > hardware is damn painful sometimes. I'd love to adopt a few 3420s. There was a fellow (Joe Rigdon) in Florida on the list a while ago who always seemed to be coming up with interesting stuff. The hitch may be that (I believe) he was near the Kennedy Space Centre (or whatever it's called these days - I still think of it as Cape Kennedy) and had good contacts with scrappers. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 12:58:13 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B8AE5D.6060103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <707625.36136.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > And really, nobody seems to live where the good > things show up. > > Whatever it is, its on the other side of the > state/country/world. > > I live where mainframes show up. *shrug* > > Peace... Sridhar Yes, but you also live where they make them. That's cheating. -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 7 13:11:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 12:11:22 -0600 Subject: Where are we? Was Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> Message-ID: <46B8B5CA.8050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > In the heart of the frozen mid-west: 10 miles west of Milwaukee, > Wisconsin, USA. In the middle of the Great White North, with Air Conditioniong on. :) Ben alias woodelf. PS: About 5 miles south of Cold Lake, Alberta Canada. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 7 13:21:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 12:21:52 -0600 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <707625.36136.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <707625.36136.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Yes, but you also live where they make them. That's > cheating. I don't think a classic computer main frame was made in years. This brings up a good question. Other than IBM are there any computer companies left from the classic 1960-1980 computer era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 13:17:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 19:17:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: DOuble-stepping BBC drives In-Reply-To: <20070806204536.M3810@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 6, 7 08:46:50 pm Message-ID: > > > > In 1770 DFS, > > > *DRIVE 0 40 > > just curious: > How would you tell the system that the drive is 40 track, > not 80 track in need of double stepping? You don't. You don't need to. By default none of the drives double-step, but the Beeb doesn't know what sort of drives are connected (there is no configuration command, there is no automatic self-text). When you format a disk, you fairly obviously tell it how many cylinders (40 or 80) to format. On old DFS's (DFS =- Disk Filing System), there were progams on the utility disk for this, you yped *FORM40 or *FORM80 as appropriate. On later DFS's, the formatter was in the DFS ROM, you typed *FORM 40 or *FORM 80 . At this point the drive would _NOT_ double-step. You could not format a 40 cylinder disk in an 80 cylinder drive. If you tired, what you got was the outermost 40 cylinders (at 98tpi) of the 80 cylinder disk formatted, and a directory written telling the system it was a 40 cylinder disk. While that could be correctly read on an 80 cylinder drive, it wasn't very useful :-) Anyway, the formatter also wrote a directory o nthe disk (as usual), whcih also definded the disk capacity Now, when you want to use the disk, if you put it in the same type of drive as was used for format it, there's no problem. The machine will kniow how many cylinders it can use (from the directory), and will not double-step. If you type *DRIVE 0 40, the machjine will double-step drive 0. The use fo that is to read a 40 cylinder disk in an 80 cylinder drive. IIRC, the disk is software write-protected by this command to prevent the well-known problems when a narrow head writes to wide-track disk (if you see what I mean). If drive 0 really is a 40 cylinder drive, and you want to turn off double-stepping, then, paradoxically, you type *DRIVE 0 80 . It looks silly, but that's because the main use of that command was to turn off double-stepping on an 80-cylinder drive that you'd wanted to sue to read a 40 cylidner disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 13:21:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 19:21:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <20070806204737.I3810@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 6, 7 08:56:06 pm Message-ID: > > What is this about hating Lucas over there? > > In the 1970s, I had extensive experience with auto repair, including very > poor reliability of 1960s and early 1970s Lucas electrics. They may very > well have improved significantly since then, in which case I apologize for > the nasty comment. It's odd, but that's the period I was thinking of. In the 1970's, I worked on only Lucas electrical bits on cars, and had no problems at all (other than lamp bulbs :-)). In the 1980s, again Lucas, one regulator failure. Then in the 1990s, the mostly Mitsubishi stuff (regulator and starter motor brush gear). Now, we've got this thing packed with Bosch, Marelli, etc modules. I am not looking forward to keeping that lot running... -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:31:40 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:31:40 -0400 Subject: Where are we? Was Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 In-Reply-To: <46B8B5CA.8050405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> <46B8B5CA.8050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46B8BA8C.5010106@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > PS: About 5 miles south of Cold Lake, Alberta Canada. When Canadians call a lake "cold", it's cold alright. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:32:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:32:11 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <707625.36136.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46B8BAAB.8020709@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> Yes, but you also live where they make them. That's >> cheating. > > I don't think a classic computer main frame was made in years. > This brings up a good question. Other than IBM are there any > computer companies left from the classic 1960-1980 computer > era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? Bull, Unisys. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:33:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:33:08 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <707625.36136.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46B8BAE4.7050703@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> Yes, but you also live where they make them. That's >> cheating. > > I don't think a classic computer main frame was made in years. > This brings up a good question. Other than IBM are there any > computer companies left from the classic 1960-1980 computer > era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? HP too. Peace... Sridhar From james.rice at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:34:20 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 13:34:20 -0500 Subject: Where are we? Was Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 In-Reply-To: <46B8B5CA.8050405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> <46B8B5CA.8050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/7/07, woodelf wrote: > > Tom Peters wrote: > > > In the heart of the frozen mid-west: 10 miles west of Milwaukee, > > Wisconsin, USA. > > In the middle of the Great White North, with Air Conditioniong on. :) > Ben alias woodelf. > > PS: About 5 miles south of Cold Lake, Alberta Canada. > > > > > Dallas, TX area, sitting in 72 degree F, air conditioned space. It's not been too hot this summer, no triple digit days yet and we've had over twice our annual rainfall amount already this year, so everything is still green. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:42:48 2007 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 20:42:48 +0200 Subject: Where are we? Was Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14, message 11 In-Reply-To: <46B88CFD.8080905@gmail.com> References: <200708061702.l76H1Id4026749@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070807100743.0d16a6c8@localhost> <46B88CFD.8080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: Paris, France, 15th (home) or 5th district (work). Stephane From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Aug 7 13:49:47 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:49:47 -0500 Subject: What's a Heath controller board 85-2222-1 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070807134733.0c628ec8@localhost> I have a Heath controller board, 85-2222-1. I think that's an RX01 or RX02 controller for DEC. I was using it with my Shugart 801. Anyone know what it actually is and if it has any value? -T ----- 205. [Philosophy] Life: a sexually transmitted disease that is fatal. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 13:55:24 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070807115217.T35141@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was looking at a bunch of Tandon TM100-4M floppy drives that I've > had for a (very) long time and saw something that never registered > with me before. > On the underside of the disk release latch (on the faceplate), a > small silver sticker. Most say "100 TPI DSR", but about one in every > 4 says "96 TPI DSR". All drives are 100 TPI TM-100-4Ms, BTW as > identified on the body sticker. I have a few 100tpi Tandons (TM100-4M), that do not have a tpi sticker, and that are clearly labeled TM100-4 (NOT 'M'!) on the body sticker. Did somebody piece together a bunch of random parts? Or was Tandon really sloppy about labels? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:56:20 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 14:56:20 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <707625.36136.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46B8B840.5040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I don't think a classic computer main frame was made in years. > This brings up a good question. Other than IBM are there any > computer companies left from the classic 1960-1980 computer > era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? Unisys. Yes, they are still around. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 13:58:19 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B8BAAB.8020709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <410276.63976.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Other than IBM are > there any > > computer companies left from the classic 1960-1980 > computer > > era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? > > Bull, Unisys. Xerox, General Electric. -Ian From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 7 14:49:11 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:49:11 -0400 Subject: Help with PDP-11 Unibus Map Hardware / Software under RT-11 Message-ID: <46B8CCB7.5080909@compsys.to> Hopefully, this request is clear enough to be understood. Both the software and the hardware portion of the questions are independently important, so please answer one aspect even if you can't help with the other. Over the past 30 years of using PDP-11 software (RT-11 over 95%) and hardware, I have never had occasion to use a Unibus system with more than 256 KB of memory (such as a PDP-11/34). I would appreciate help in understanding the Unibus Map hardware which (if I understand its purpose correctly) is to convert 18 bit addresses given to a Unibus controller into 22 bit addresses for real physical memory for systems like a PDP-11/84 and perform DMA from / to the hard drive. Also helpful would be an explanation of the related software used under RT-11 along with exactly where the Unibus Map hardware is located on a real DEC system (on the CPU board I presume) since the identical CPU board is used for both the Qbus and the Unibus with both the PDP-11/84 and the PDP-11/94. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING if you don't use RT-11!!!!!!! By way of context, I have successfully modified the HD0: device driver originally written by John Wilson which obviously executes ONLY under E11. Last week, John mentioned in a private e-mail that it is possible to direct the HD0: "controller" (all references to hardware in quotes refers to E11 software) to ignore the "Unibus Map hardware". Since I execute under E11 using Qbus emulation in order to stay totally compatible with the real DEC PDP-11/23, PDP-11/73 and PDP-11/83 systems (all Qbus and all with 4 MB of physical memory) which I have available for comparison testing, user buffers in physical memory above 256 KB are often a situation which can't be avoided. Consequently, it had always been a high priority to have a 22 bit device driver for HD0: under E11 BECAUSE HD0: is TWICE as fast as MSCP (DUX.SYS device driver). In addition, I have also been able to write code that avoids the overhead of using the HD0: device driver which makes HD0: FOUR times as fast as MSCP and also allows for direct access of 2 TB of disk space via a 32 bit block number. Since I have an immediate application for a data base of 32 GB (I have a disk drive of 160 GB, so 32 GB is only 20% of its capacity - although under RT-11 15 years ago in 1992, 32 GB would have been only a dream), the code which I have written will actually be used quite soon. However, I would very much like the HD0: device driver to be able to execute under both "Qbus" and "Unibus" hardware. And while I can test the code for a "Qbus" and for a "Unibus" without a "Unibus Map", I am not clear about what is required for a "Unibus" with a "Unibus Map" such as a PDP-11/84 running under RT-11. Megan are you still watching the list? Allison, if you can't answer, can anyone but Megan help? Is anyone else familiar enough with the "Unibus Map" that you can suggest what RT-11 actually needs to do with the "Unibus Map"? A solution is to check the "hardware" configuration and refuse to allow the HD0: device driver to LOAD or .Fetch if the modified version is not executing under "Qbus hardware". By the way, if anyone who is thinking of a controller for the Qbus which is able to use SATA drives, I would be happy to modify an RT-11 device driver to an HD0: type device that is able to handle drives up to 2 TB in the same manner that DU(X).SYS can handle drives up to 8 GB. Anyone interested?? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 15:17:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:17:29 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <20070807115217.T35141@shell.lmi.net> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070807115217.T35141@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46B870E9.28801.464F8DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2007 at 11:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have a few 100tpi Tandons (TM100-4M), that do not have a tpi sticker, > and that are clearly labeled TM100-4 (NOT 'M'!) on the body sticker. Did > somebody piece together a bunch of random parts? Or was Tandon really > sloppy about labels? Probably the latter. I've got one with an option number label, with part crossed out and new numbers handwritten in. I've got a couple of MPI 100 TPI drives that now lack any sort of label (even the tach strobe on the spindle pulley is gone). I attribute this to CDC using a lousy adhesive. I wish I could remember the model number of these beasts--but all the sticky bits are gone... Did anyone ever make a half-height 100 TPI drive? I'm guessing "no". Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 7 15:19:51 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:19:51 -0400 Subject: dead nicd charger Message-ID: <200708072019.l77KJq6i029913@mwave.heeltoe.com> I'm going to risk the rath, but I just know someone on this list has delt with this. After replacing my Ryobi 14.4v nicd charger 2 times (yes 2), I discovered I have a dead battery and it's killing the charger(s). Apparently it can do this rather quickly, as I only left it on the charger for about an hour. (one web site says it only takes a matter of minutes - apparently the cheapo charger does not protect itself) So, ok. Since I have 2 dead ones I might as well try to fix it. It just as a simple circuit board with a rectifier, 4 devices, 3 leds and bunch of discretes. Q1 A1015 PNP transistor (2SA1015) Q2 2N3904 NPN transistor Q3 XL08 ST 40 .8A SCRS Q4 X0403DE ST SCR Anyone ever fix one? what fails? I'm going to guess the big to-225 style SCR failef, since I'll bet that modulates the current to the battery. -brad From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 15:55:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 13:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? Message-ID: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I did some checking, and my one vax does _not_ have an Emulex ESDI controller - it's a Dilog. I downloaded the manual from Bitsavers. I'm going to start playing with it and see if I can get it to format some of these spare ESDI disks. One disk I have a couple of is this IBM drive. It's labeled as "P/N 90X8528 70MB ESDI", and on the side as "Type: 0667". Googleing has turned up little, although I found some info on cyls/heads/sectors. There is a block of dip switches on the drive, and it would be nice to figure out what they do... -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 15:55:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 13:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? Message-ID: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I did some checking, and my one vax does _not_ have an Emulex ESDI controller - it's a Dilog. I downloaded the manual from Bitsavers. I'm going to start playing with it and see if I can get it to format some of these spare ESDI disks. One disk I have a couple of is this IBM drive. It's labeled as "P/N 90X8528 70MB ESDI", and on the side as "Type: 0667". Googleing has turned up little, although I found some info on cyls/heads/sectors. There is a block of dip switches on the drive, and it would be nice to figure out what they do... -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 17:19:17 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 15:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I did some checking, and my one vax does _not_ > have an Emulex ESDI controller - it's a Dilog. I > downloaded the manual from Bitsavers. I'm going to > start playing with it and see if I can get it to > format some of these spare ESDI disks. > > One disk I have a couple of is this IBM drive. It's > labeled as "P/N 90X8528 70MB ESDI", and on the side > as > "Type: 0667". Googleing has turned up little, > although > I found some info on cyls/heads/sectors. There is a > block of dip switches on the drive, and it would be > nice to figure out what they do... I guess I answered my own question - and that is that I don't need to know... After a lot of fiddleing with the Dilog controller in the Vax (had to put it into another Qbus slot) I was able to get into the disk formatter via the instructions in the manual. It works perfectly, and sees the disk automatically, and I was able to format it and test it. Of course, since I'm using the existing cable, it shows up as the second disk - but I can use the "twisted" PC clone control cable to set it as the first disk. Still, it would be nice to change the setting on the drive (without taking the board off and tracing switches back to drive select pins) -Ian From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 7 17:44:42 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 7 Aug 2007 15:44:42 -0700 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1186526682.46b8f5da0d5f8@secure.zipcon.net> Do you have pics of it? It might help identify who actually made the drive for IBM. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 17:47:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 15:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <867450.84653.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <244960.9773.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I made it a bit farther with the MicroVax II. Right now I am concentrating on just one of the machines - the MVII in the third party enclosure. It has a Dilog ESDI card, and a TK50 controller/drive, and an SMD controller. A little background: When I got the machine, the SMD controller was ripped loose from it's slot (no bulkhead, just cables running out the back, apparently), and there was a grant card loose in the bottom of the cabinet. There was a full horizontal row of slots between the CPU/RAM/SMD and the ESDI controller and TK50. Running it like that wasn't going to work, since the bus grant wasn't going to be passed through the empty slot. (I know that much about Qbus). So I shifted the ESDI board and the TK50 board up a row, so there were no gaps. The ESDI controller never worked like this. I had to pull out the TK50 controller and put the ESDI controller in it's place in order to get it to boot. So maybe the TK50 controller wasn't passing the grant? Anyway, the drive that was in it makes a horrible squealing noise, but I left it connected anyway - since I know the controller was originally using it. And lo and behold - it booted. VMS version 5.2. I was able to punch in the date/time, then it loaded some stuff, then complained of all manner or I/O errors. Since there's nothing dragging on the spindle of the drive external to the HDA, it sounds like a head crash. Bummer. I got the controller to see and format an IBM ESDI drive, and that seems to be working. Now, the only thing I have left to do is load an OS. I'm going to start with NetBSD since it's easy to get and well documented. I did some digging here and found my SCSI TK50 drive. So, I should be able to write a tape, move it to the MicroVax and boot it. Only one problem. I don't have any tapes. The tape I unjammed from another TK50 drive is clearly not going to work again - the tape was snarled inside the cartridge (the cartridge is kinda "crinkly" when you press gently on the poker chip on the bottom. So, while I know it's not good from a reliability standpoint, has anyone ever filed the tabs off of an incompatible cartridge and gotten it to work in a TK50? I have DLT III, IIIXT and IV cartridges (although I actually use the IV's - so I don't really want to go hacking one of those up if I can avoid it). -Ian From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 7 17:47:51 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 18:47:51 -0400 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <1186526682.46b8f5da0d5f8@secure.zipcon.net> References: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1186526682.46b8f5da0d5f8@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <200708071847.51607.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 August 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: > Do you have pics of it? It might help identify who actually made the > drive for IBM. "IBM" is probably the answer to that question. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 7 17:55:34 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 7 Aug 2007 15:55:34 -0700 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1186527334.46b8f86678a4a@secure.zipcon.net> Apparently the 70 MB Esdi drive is also called an E70? I found the following at http://www.uni-giessen.de/faq/archiv/ibm-rt-faq.hardware/msg00000.html * The E70 and E114 hard drives use a 150 Ohm inline resistor. It has pin one as the common pin, and has 12 total leads. This is NOT documented ANYWHERE that I could find! * Switch settings for E70 and E114 hard drives. For RT installation, the switches must be as follows: 1 2 3 4 5 6 +------------------+ On | X X X | Off | X X X | +------------------+ - Eliot reports that the switch meanings are: switch 1: on = pwr up via software (factory default) off = pwr up with system 2: on = diags (factory default) off = ? [ My guess.. since on is the RT normal position, then off must activate diagnostic mode. - MW] 3: on = 512 byte sectors (factory default) off = 256 byte sectors 4,5,6: drive select in binary i.e. 4 off 5 on 6 off = drive select 2 From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 7 18:01:28 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 7 Aug 2007 16:01:28 -0700 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <200708071847.51607.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1186526682.46b8f5da0d5f8@secure.zipcon.net> <200708071847.51607.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1186527688.46b8f9c816fcd@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Patrick Finnegan : > On Tuesday 07 August 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: > > Do you have pics of it? It might help identify who actually made the > > drive for IBM. > > "IBM" is probably the answer to that question. > > Pat not always, the 310 MB ESDI drive IBM sold was a relabeled Maxtor XT-4380E with a specific revision of the on drive electronics. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 18:14:18 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 18:14:18 -0500 Subject: IBM Card punch on ebay Message-ID: <51ea77730708071614g3f24bbc3h1385df235a142632@mail.gmail.com> Not mine, just spotted it in a search: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150149167422 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 20:03:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 21:03:41 -0400 Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <410276.63976.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <410276.63976.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B9166D.3050301@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Other than IBM are >> there any >>> computer companies left from the classic 1960-1980 >> computer >>> era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? >> Bull, Unisys. > > Xerox, General Electric. I thought they both stopped? Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 20:14:28 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 18:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird IBMs In-Reply-To: <46B9166D.3050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <348754.20443.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Other than IBM are > >> there any > >>> computer companies left from the classic > 1960-1980 > >> computer > >>> era that have some sort of NON-PC computer out? > >> Bull, Unisys. > > > > Xerox, General Electric. > > I thought they both stopped? > > Peace... Sridhar > Ah, yes, well, good point - they're no longer companies that make computers. But they're definitely still around. -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 20:18:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 21:18:34 -0400 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B919EA.7080800@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I did some checking, and my one vax does _not_ > have an Emulex ESDI controller - it's a Dilog. I > downloaded the manual from Bitsavers. I'm going to > start playing with it and see if I can get it to > format some of these spare ESDI disks. > > One disk I have a couple of is this IBM drive. It's > labeled as "P/N 90X8528 70MB ESDI", and on the side as > "Type: 0667". Googleing has turned up little, although > I found some info on cyls/heads/sectors. There is a > block of dip switches on the drive, and it would be > nice to figure out what they do... http://www.hitachigst.com/ They bought Adstar a while ago, which was IBM's media-manufacturing division. Look for the big master table of all hard disks they ever made at Hitachi's website. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 20:20:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 21:20:49 -0400 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <1186527688.46b8f9c816fcd@secure.zipcon.net> References: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1186526682.46b8f5da0d5f8@secure.zipcon.net> <200708071847.51607.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1186527688.46b8f9c816fcd@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <46B91A71.8020607@gmail.com> Geoff Reed wrote: > Quoting Patrick Finnegan : > >> On Tuesday 07 August 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: >>> Do you have pics of it? It might help identify who actually made the >>> drive for IBM. >> "IBM" is probably the answer to that question. >> >> Pat > > not always, the 310 MB ESDI drive IBM sold was a relabeled Maxtor XT-4380E with > a specific revision of the on drive electronics. That doesn't apply to the drives that had an IBM "type number". This drive is "Type 0667". Made by IBM. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 7 20:31:26 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 7 Aug 2007 18:31:26 -0700 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <46B91A71.8020607@gmail.com> References: <574752.98109.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1186526682.46b8f5da0d5f8@secure.zipcon.net> <200708071847.51607.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1186527688.46b8f9c816fcd@secure.zipcon.net> <46B91A71.8020607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186536686.46b91cee2cf5a@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Sridhar Ayengar : > > not always, the 310 MB ESDI drive IBM sold was a relabeled Maxtor > XT-4380E with > > a specific revision of the on drive electronics. > > That doesn't apply to the drives that had an IBM "type number". > > This drive is "Type 0667". Made by IBM. > > Peace... Sridhar ah... didn't know that From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Aug 7 21:41:56 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 19:41:56 -0700 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <46B919EA.7080800@gmail.com> References: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46B919EA.7080800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B92D74.8040209@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Is there any country of origin on the 667? There was a division in Havant that manufactured drives in this time frame, that IBM sold to the plant managers, that is now Xyratex. They made disk products for IBM for several years which evolved up thru the SSA interface on RS6000's when the contract expired. They now make raid systems after a number of gyrations into other businesses, such as video, fibre channel, and disk manufacturing equipment sales. Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 22:05:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 23:05:15 -0400 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? In-Reply-To: <46B92D74.8040209@msm.umr.edu> References: <86664.7975.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46B919EA.7080800@gmail.com> <46B92D74.8040209@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46B932EB.6080203@gmail.com> jim wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> > Is there any country of origin on the 667? There was a division in > Havant that manufactured drives in this time frame, that IBM sold to the > plant managers, that is now Xyratex. If memory serves, those series were made in several different places, including California and Mexico. Probably one or two other places too. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 23:39:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 21:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <200708051232.28819.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <455105.297.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Sunday 05 August 2007 00:23, Chris M wrote: > > Soldering iron tips are made of copper, so I don't > see any reason why I > > couldn't chisel one down for a specific task. Any > thoughts? Am I courting > > disaster? > > They're made of copper, but they're also plated > with iron, and once that > plating is gone the copper doesn't last -- it gets > pitted, etc. On really > old stuff I used to file tips, but not any more... I bring this up for argument's sake. I had thought they were plated with tin. Now...that may not make a lot of sense (and according to Roy isn't even true), but is coating something with tin (i.e soldering) and plating a surface largely different in the durability of the coating? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 8 00:22:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:22:41 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46B64F60.50102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> <46B64F60.50102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200708080122.41311.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 05 August 2007 18:29, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I remember seeing one magazine article for such a device, but I wasn't > > that thrilled with the design of it. It used some sort of counter chips > > to step through the addresses of the target RAM, and wasn't very > > flexible in its approach to things. > > > > I started giving some serious thought to building one of those boxes, but > > never did finish it. > > > > Do you know of designs on the web? > > > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ > > Ben alias woodelf. I found the emulator, but there's nothing on the page about where one might get it, details, schematic, or anything other than a description. Maybe if I poke around on the site some more it'll turn up, someplace... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 8 00:24:52 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:24:52 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 05 August 2007 19:53, Brad Parker wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I remember seeing one magazine article for such a device, but I wasn't > >> that > >> > >> thrilled with the design of it. It used some sort of counter chips to > >> step through the addresses of the target RAM, and wasn't very flexible > >> in its approach to things. > > If you're talking about eprom emulators, "back in the day" I used to > use a device called a "PROMICE". > > It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very handy. > It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But > gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... > > I looked on ebay and didn't find one, sadly; I did find, however an > "ostrich 2.0" USB eprom emulator which looks nice. www.moates.net > > Apparently there is a large community of people out there hacking engine > ECU's. who knew? :-) > > -brad Actually, I did. :-) Ages ago, probably all the way back in oh, 1993 or so (?) I stumbled across a mailing list calling itself DIY-EFI, and that's what those guys were all about Much of it *way* over my head, and I've completely lost track of it, but it did make for some fascinating reading for a while there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 8 00:32:13 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:32:13 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0708060630m4f05b187l395cd0e165e41e55@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0708060630m4f05b187l395cd0e165e41e55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708080132.13744.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 06 August 2007 09:30, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 06/08/07, David Griffith wrote: > > Can someone recommend a source for the 7-pin PCB-mount DIN jacks used for > > the power jack on a Commodore 64? > > Could you just use an 8-pin jack (like digi-key A32316-ND) and ignore > the middle pin (cut it on the PCB side)? Those 8-pin sockets will accept the 7-pin plugs all right -- I once had a repair where someone plugged their power supply into the video connector, and the attached circuitry was NOT happy! :-) They'll also accept the 5-pin connector, as my bench test video/audio cable was equpped with such. > Joe > (If you're really in a bind and the above won't work, I can unsolder > one I have on a broken C64. Contact me off-list if needed.) I responded to the initial post offlist, as I've already done so -- had a LOT of scrap 64s and all sorts of connectors from them, already unsoldered if anybody needs some. Feel free to contact me offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From james at jfc.org.uk Wed Aug 8 03:37:36 2007 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 09:37:36 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200708030215.l732EXm3064613@dewey.classiccmp.org> <781EAD64-B2E0-46C8-94FD-4C5878912D4F@microspot.co.uk> <1186137116.1804.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <1186562256.6508.7.camel@voltaire.home.net> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 11:31 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I got the impression that the bulk of the UK classic computing community > was around the Midlands and north, with a few exceptions. > > Can we have a quick poll to see who lives where? I'm about half-way up > Scotland on the left-hand side. not one for "me too"s to mailing lists, but i suppose interest needs to judged somehow... i'm in york and would be willing to travel pretty much anywhere in the UK with a train station for a festival. -- James F. Carter http://www.jfc.org.uk/ http://www.podquiz.com/ From austin at ozpass.co.uk Wed Aug 8 10:17:25 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 16:17:25 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <1186562256.6508.7.camel@voltaire.home.net> Message-ID: On 8/8/07 09:37, "James Carter" wrote: > not one for "me too"s to mailing lists, but i suppose interest needs to > judged somehow... i'm in york and would be willing to travel pretty much > anywhere in the UK with a train station for a festival. Isn't there some sort of Google Maps/Earth hack where a group can add locations? We could determine what info. was needed in the comments field (e.g. Email address, distance willing to travel to attend, distance willing to travel to exhibit etc. etc.) [Wanders off to see if I dreamed it....] -Austin. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 8 10:49:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 08:49:52 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <455105.297.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200708051232.28819.rtellason@verizon.net>, <455105.297.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B983B0.23755.8964F1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2007 at 21:39, Chris M wrote: > I bring this up for argument's sake. I had thought > they were plated with tin. Now...that may not make a > lot of sense (and according to Roy isn't even true), > but is coating something with tin (i.e soldering) and > plating a surface largely different in the durability > of the coating? Apples and oranges, for the most part. "Tinning" something requires that the base metal molecularly bond ("wet") with what's being used for a coating. On the other hand, it's possible, via several processes, to plate just about any metal onto anything, even nonconductive plastics. Hot-dipping/tinning requires that the substrate melt at a higher temperature than the material used to coat it. Dipping copper into liquid iron to coat it, for example, would only result in melting the copper. As a general rule, plated coatings tend to be thinner (but they don't have to be) than hot-dipped coatings. The next time you put a new roof on your house for example, try using electro-galvanized nails instead of hot-dipped ones. You'll have rusty nails in less than a year. There is one other method used for coating, and that's vapor deposition ("sputtering", PVD, etc.) which tends to produce coatings much thinner than plated ones. I don't know if that answers the question. Cheers, Chuck From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 16:27:26 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 14:27:26 -0700 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface References: Message-ID: <001701c7da02$fe5324c0$0201a8c0@hal9000> > > > The other is that I remmeber seeing adverts in Elektor magazine for a > > > device so use USB flash memory sticks with microcontrollers. IIRC it was > > > called something like 'Vinculum', and looked to be a panel mounting > > > module with an IDE socket on it that you pluged the flash memory stick > > > into. > > > > The one that gives you a UART or SPI interface to a FAT-formatted USB > > thumb drive is at http://www.vinculum.com/prd_vdrive1.html > > > > >From their online store, looks to be about 14 quid. > > > > Dunno about the IDE socket, though. > > ARGH!!! Did I really say that. To many TLAs after a long day looking at > the insides of HP9000s.... > > I meant 'USB socket'. From what I rmemebr it's a little panel-mounting > thing with a socket you can plug the flash memory stick into. > > -tony > Tony, A company here ( USA ) called Parallax has a small device using the " Vinny " chip you referred too that will talk to thumb drives using FAT32 ( I believe ). Checkout: http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=27937 It's less than $35 ( USD ). If this will do what you need and is not available across the pond let me know. I can buy it and ship it to you. Best regards, Steven C. From james at jfc.org.uk Wed Aug 8 16:55:29 2007 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:55:29 +0100 Subject: UK Classic Computer event (Was VCF UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186610129.6249.1.camel@voltaire.home.net> On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 16:17 +0100, Austin Pass wrote: > Isn't there some sort of Google Maps/Earth hack where a group can add > locations? frappr? http://www.frappr.com/ -- James F. Carter http://www.jfc.org.uk/ http://www.podquiz.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 17:11:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 23:11:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: <200708080132.13744.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 8, 7 01:32:13 am Message-ID: > > On Monday 06 August 2007 09:30, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > On 06/08/07, David Griffith wrote: > > > Can someone recommend a source for the 7-pin PCB-mount DIN jacks used= > for > > > the power jack on a Commodore 64? > > > > Could you just use an 8-pin jack (like digi-key A32316-ND) and ignore > > the middle pin (cut it on the PCB side)? > > Those 8-pin sockets will accept the 7-pin plugs all right -- I once had a= > =20 > repair where someone plugged their power supply into the video connector,= > =20 > and the attached circuitry was NOT happy! :-) They'll also accept the 5= > -pin=20 > connector, as my bench test video/audio cable was equpped with such. And for that matter the 3-pin DIN plug will fit said socket. This explains the strange pin numbering of these sockets (for the 7 pin it's 6 1 4 2 5 3 7 rounf the arc, on the 8 pin it's the same with pin 8 in the middle, etc) You start wit he 3 pin plug, which has the pins 1 2 3 in the obvious, sensible, order. The 5 pin added pins 4 and 5 between them. The 7 pin added pins 6 and 7 on the ends. The copatibility is intentiona./ The original use of this connector was for audio applications, for a mono tape recorder socket. Pin one was the output from the radio (input to the tape recorder). Pin 2 was ground. And pin 3 was the input to the eadio (output from the tape recorder). For stereo. the 5 pin plug was used, pin 2 remained earth, pins 1 nad 3 kept their old functions for the ledt-hand channel ,while pins 4 and 5 were the corresding functions for the right-hand channel. There are actually 2 other 5 pin DIN connectors. The one we've been talking about is commonly called 'type A' or '180 degree'. There's a 'type B' or '240 degree' that has a similar compatability with the 6 pin connecotr, and those were originally intended for 'non audio signals', for example PSU inputs to a battery tape recorder/radio, remote controls, slide projector control, etc. And there's the 'type C' or '360 degree' or 'Quincuncial' that was sometimes used for headphones. There's also an 8 pin version with the 2 pins at the end of the arc offset. It's incompatible with the normal 7 and 8 pin plugs (although AFAIK the 3 pi nand 5 pin plugs will fit). I've never seen an analagous 7 pin connector. AFAIK _all_ have been sued somewhere on classic computer equipment. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 17:41:01 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 17:41:01 -0500 Subject: Ebay user bobar Message-ID: <51ea77730708081541t1fbd55ffp9f93fb47fa8470b0@mail.gmail.com> Are you on this list? From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 18:23:32 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 16:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trivia In-Reply-To: <200708080121.l781JvvK055673@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <203.5319.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> According to a book I just read, the model of the fuse used on the German WWII V-1 Flying Bombs was the "Z80A." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 18:46:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:46:25 -0400 Subject: Trivia In-Reply-To: <203.5319.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <203.5319.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BA55D1.6040604@gmail.com> William Blair wrote: > According to a book I just read, the model of the fuse used on the German WWII V-1 Flying Bombs > was the "Z80A." Interesting. Peace... Sridhar From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Aug 9 00:28:01 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 02:28:01 -0300 Subject: Data IO 29B info? References: <51ea77730708081541t1fbd55ffp9f93fb47fa8470b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <087201c7da46$108f6f70$f0fea8c0@alpha> http://web.archive.org/web/20061208004044/www.leopardcats.com/dio/dataio29b.htm Someone asked for info on this programmer, I found this page and maybe it can be of some help Greetz from Brazil, Alexandre From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 9 01:26:56 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:26:56 +0100 Subject: Data IO 29B info? In-Reply-To: <087201c7da46$108f6f70$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <51ea77730708081541t1fbd55ffp9f93fb47fa8470b0@mail.gmail.com> <087201c7da46$108f6f70$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46BAB3B0.5050703@philpem.me.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: > http://web.archive.org/web/20061208004044/www.leopardcats.com/dio/dataio29b.htm > > Someone asked for info on this programmer, I found this page and > maybe it can be of some help All the files are 404... but I have them here. I could throw them on my website somewhere if anyone wants them... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 9 04:37:34 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 01:37:34 -0800 Subject: Sharp MZ 2200 in SoCal anybody like these In-Reply-To: <0JME00IJ3JKXOIK3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JME00IJ3JKXOIK3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46BAE05E.8000802@socal.rr.com> I got an email today from a guy clearing out some old computer gear near Los Angeles, quoted below. Send me a direct email and I can try to talk him into stashing it away for a couple weeks. The old computers are made by Sharp. The model seems to be Personal Computer MZ 2200. Compete with external 8 inch floppy drives. E waste, or collectable? From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 13:57:08 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:57:08 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <13577.217.225.102.125.1186309855.squirrel@217.225.102.125> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> , <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> , <2b1f1f550708032107p4a56726fi1850b6b322f473f1@mail.gmail.com> <46B3B0A1.25671.AC7E0E7@cclist.sydex.com> <12912.217.225.117.204.1186244807.squirrel@217.225.117.204> <1186301812.4261.17.camel@elric> <13577.217.225.102.125.1186309855.squirrel@217.225.102.125> Message-ID: <1186340228.18302.5.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 12:30 +0200, Holger Veit wrote: > Personally, I have been a Linux evangelist for long, but that ideology > does not lead to anything rather than adding unnecessary complexity to > life. The lesson that you don't fix screws with hammers but with an > appropriate tool has yet to be learnt in computing. So I use Windows where > suited best, and Linux in other situations. This is in danger of going wildly OT and into a flame-fest, so let's leave it at this: I have absolutely no use for Windows apart from an EPROM programmer that I paid 20 quid for on eBay. In this case, there's not really a problem, because the software seems to work just fine in Wine. I *do*, however, object to paying 400 quid to rent an operating system that doesn't really work properly. Especially when it wants to report all my personal data and the contents of my hard drive back to Micros~1 Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 13:59:08 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:59:08 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200708051229.59520.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1186340348.18302.8.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 12:29 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > The advantage over using EPROMs is that you can re-write the RAM as many > > times as you like (EPROMS have a limited number of program cycles) and > > rewrite it quickly. Unless your programming is a lot better than mine, > > you will go mad if you have to wait 20 minutes for an EPROM to be erased > > and reprogammed. each time you want to make a change! > > Unless you have a pile of EPROMs handy... :-) You want to try it with drum machines that store samples on EPROMs. Spend five minutes blowing the ROM, plug it in, turn on, hit the pad, "Byyoommf" - nah, that sounds rubbish, try again... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 14:07:35 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:07:35 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <727474.18935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <727474.18935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1186340855.18302.16.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 11:20 -0700, Chris M wrote: > Do the "bobbies" still use bikes in the rural areas Nope, they use diesel Fiestas, until they get them taken away for crashing too often. I once got pulled over for speeding, 75 in a 60 limit, by the policeman from the next village over. Since he had a colleague in the car, he could do that - they can't pull someone over if they're on their own, lack of corroboration and all. Not an hour had passed but I needed to pop over to a friend's house, not far from the village where said plod was based. Not being keen to meet him again, I thought I'd take a twisty narrow back road, just wide enough for one car. Well, as I came round a particularly nasty left-hander (turn tightens halfway through, camber falls out of the turn, nearly caught me out before), I see the same policeman standing on the verge, with his car nose-first into the peat bog beside the road. Well stuck. Out I got, noted the look of apprehension as I pulled a length of thick chain out of the boot of my car. Hooked one end to the towing eye on his Fiesta, and the other to the towing eye on my Volvo. A quick rumble from the clattery old PRV V6, and Mr Plod's car was nicely four-square on the tarmac in no time. Barely a scratch to show for it; wash the mud off the front bumper and no-one would ever notice. Handed him back the speeding ticket. "Don't think we need to say anything about this, do we? 'Course not. Lovely. Drive safe now..." Offtopic, I know, but it still makes me smile. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 5 07:22:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 08:22:25 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JMA007QLVOGVNJ2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: "Holger Veit" > Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:23:15 +0200 (CEST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >Tony Duell said: >> IMHO, more important than the EPROM programmer is an EPROM emulator. This >> is a box of RAM that connectes to the EPROM socket of the target system >> (the board you'be just made) and also to a host machine (PC, parallel >> port, serial port, USB?). YOu can quickly download perogams into the >> emulator, which then appears exactly as the EPROM does ot the target, and >> the latter can therefroe run said programs. >> >> The advantage over using EPROMs is that you can re-write the RAM as many >> times as you like (EPROMS have a limited number of program cycles) and >> rewrite it quickly. Unless your programming is a lot better than mine, >> you will go mad if you have to wait 20 minutes for an EPROM to be erased >> and reprogammed. each time you want to make a change! > >I haven't so far reached the maximum # of programming cycles for EPROMs in >any experiment. *) As I recommended you might use EEPROMs instead of >EPROMs mainly because of their moderate capacity (you won't need PC FLASH >ROMs with 1MB or more for an 8 bit system) and because they don't need >erasing in the UV coffin. Neither have I. I have 2716s, 2732s dating back to early 1980s that have seen many cycles in many many projects and they are still good. The thing that seems to kill Eproms is excessive erase times and reverse polarity. Allison > >*) Maybe your and my programming strategy differs; now with SW emulators >for almost any old CPU being available ona PC, I tend to test my code in >an emulator, often with single stepping first before I make a HEX file to >burn it; even with EEPROMs - the old turnaround cycle of change a byte, >program, insert and test how far it works is still too long even with RAM >boxes. Admittedly, in the old times, without PC emulation, I did a lot of >paper testing work first before burning the stuff into an EPROM; this >discipline meanwhile degraded... > >-- >Holger From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 5 16:01:46 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:01:46 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186347706.7117.0.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 21:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 00:33 +0100, Rob wrote: > > > > > had solid floors. For a VCF, though, power might be an issue - > > > sockets were obviously not a priority in most of their designs.... I > > > > Hire a genny. > > How stable is the frequency of such a unit? Remember many larger disk > drives have their spindle speed set by mains freqeucy. > We're in danger of drifting off-topic here, but it depends on the genny. High-end ones are extremely stable, if that's what you order. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 5 16:18:05 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:18:05 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JMB00IWJKH38JK2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:21:07 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >[EPROM emulatoros] > >> *) Maybe your and my programming strategy differs; now with SW emulators >> for almost any old CPU being available ona PC, I tend to test my code in > >It does. Remember I don't have anything that will run such an emulator at >anything like a reasonable speed. For test reasons often not a requirement to run at near real speeds. Sometimes slower is good for testing, most sims can do things even a hardware front pannel would envy. Usually I use a spare 486dx/66, certainly not lightining fast but enough to test to see if the code even runs and usually decently fast. the P1mmx/166 I use for email and stuff runs Myz80 and Dunfields NS* Horizon (4mhz z80) and CUBIX (6809) SIMs all run close to or better than real speeds. Thats good enough considering the tools they provide as an offset if any. >Anyway, I like to write little test programs to run on the target >hardware (maybe just outputing a message through the serial port, or >blinking some LEDs, or...). Just to make sure the target is doing >something sensbile. I prefer to run on hardware too but, there are times when a my 486/75 laptop is at hand and I'm way from my bench so why not? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 5 16:21:27 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:21:27 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:43:16 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> For that matter, why bother with UV erasers and UV EPROMs at all? > > Sorry to jump in, but I'd like to add my opinion. I have a few >reasons why someone might use UV EPROMs. > > If you've got the right equipment, UV EPROMs are cheap, readily >available, highly standardized, predictable, and generally pretty >bulletproof. Works for me. The larger Eproms like 27128, 27256 and larger I have loads of from old PCs that were junked. A ready supply of fast and large (often CMOS) eproms make it easier to do that. Though I had to mod my Prommer to do parts larger than 27256 the code upgrade was easy. Allison > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL >Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 5 16:28:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:28:49 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JMB0075JKYZVOP3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:54:42 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Aug 5, 2007, at 4:16 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> Not the best choice, IMHO, a better one you might find at >>> www.willem.org. >>> There are commercial clones as well, like the one from >>> www.silvotronic.de >>> (board, kit available through ePay for instance). I have bought a >>> kit from >>> them and they work fine. >> >> One caveat with the willem programmers is that there really is only >> Windows software available for them. It works well under Wine with a >> bit of messing about. > > That in itself is a good reason to avoid them, in my opinion. I >have two or three useless PC-based EPROM programmers sitting in >various boxes in the garage. They're useless because the >manufacturer has orphaned them (or just plain gone out of business) >and I either lost the software, or it only runs under some release of >Windows that isn't easily available anymore. (and I'll be damned if >I'm going to have a Windows machine here just to run an EPROM >programmer!) > > Anything worth doing is worth doing right. Get a standalone >device programmer, not one that pretends to be a computer >peripheral...or worse yet, a "Windows PC peripheral". With a real >device programmer, you won't get locked into the whims of the >manufacturer (at least not as easily), or worse yet, the whims of >Microsoft. Having an important tool depend on an unreliably, >proprietary operating system from one manufacturer who is well-known >for sleazy business practices sure doesn't sound to me like a smart >way to run. > > I used a Data I/O 2900 for many years, and I absolutely loved it. >I recently replaced it with a Data I/O Unisite...a big beefy one with >a hard drive. It's Good Stuff(tm) and can program pretty much >anything. When designing or repairing something, I never have to >stop and worry about whether or not I can program a particular >device. These machines have floppy drives, and can deal with DOS- >formatted disks (which most anything can write) and understand >literally dozens of different file formats. They can also be >remotely controlled via a *STANDARD* serial port, and the protocol is >simple and openly documented. > > Like I said...anything worth doing is worth doing right. DataIO is nice but if you don't have one the next best is anything that has an interface that is easily coded for or the code is available. I use a S100 Prommer and have the sources so the end result was a SBC880, RAM-17 and an old 4slot mother using a PC power supply to make a dedicated programmer with a serial port to any host. The nice part about Eproms is they are standardized. Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Aug 5 16:56:01 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:56:01 -0400 Subject: Looking for manual for IME 86s desktop calculator Message-ID: Hi all -- My dad's had an IME 86s calculator in his office for years, since he rescued it from his school's surplus sale a dozen years back. Cool old desktop unit: 16 nixie tubes for the display, and a square root function! :) He's interested in finding a copy of the manual for it -- anyone out there have a lead? Thanks in advance... Josh From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 6 02:15:57 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:15:57 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186384557.7117.11.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 21:51 -0700, David Griffith wrote: > Can someone recommend a source for the 7-pin PCB-mount DIN jacks used for > the power jack on a Commodore 64? Just about anywhere. It's a totally standard part. Gordon From stuart at retrocomputing.tv Mon Aug 6 10:44:06 2007 From: stuart at retrocomputing.tv (stuart birchall) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:44:06 +0100 Subject: Bit of a clear out (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello everyone, I'd like to thin out my collection a bit so I can just focus on CBM and portables, and hopefully, collectors in the UK can make better use of the kit than I can: Link 480Z and external drive TI994A and expansion box (a rarity) BBC Master and drives Sinclair PC200 (open to trades on this as it cost me a little bit) SGI Indy base unit, keyboard/mouse In terms of trades or just generally wants, I'm after a Grid Compass 1100 and any Amiga 1000 stuff. Wierdly, I'm also looking for a Gateway 2000 ATX case with our without P1 motherboard, a decent PCI graphics card and Gravis Ultrasound Max ISA card. Thanks. Stu. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 6 14:30:09 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:30:09 -0400 Subject: 8085 vs 8085A Message-ID: <0JMD00MMBA4VMRX0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 8085 vs 8085A > From: "river" > Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:48:21 +1000 > To: > >Hi, > >I was looking through my collection yesterday and was testing out an old >Intel SDK85 system. I noticed the main processor is stamped 8085, which >means this chip is either an 8085 or the "A" was not printed properly and >the chip is really an 8085A. > >I have a few 8085 systems and a box of 8085 CPUs. I checked them all and >every one of them is an 8085A. I don't think I have ever seen an 8085, >they've all been 8085A types. > >Other than the stamp on the chip, is there anyway I can tell the difference >between an 8085 and an 8085A? Furthermore, is the 8085 rare, and I should >put the chip away, or is it nothing special? 8085 (non A) is not rare but I have no data in my library for intel to suggest any differnce between the non-A and the A part. >Why did Intel bring out the 8085A? Were there issues with the 8085? 8085 was 1977 and the 8085A from what I have was soon before! Date codes suggest late 1977 (week 52 1977) for one 8085A. I suspect the differnces are processing only and they are interchangeable. I should note that I only have a few intel 8085s in ceramic and 8085As in both ceramic and plastic. So there may be insignificant process differnces. Also only the 8085A appears elsewhere (NEC, AMD) so the upgrade may be a license issue. Allison > >Seeyuzz >River > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Aug 6 18:29:22 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:29:22 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023114@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> What about a VVCF = Virtual Vintage Computer Festival? Via a Website to webcams at list members locations. If around they can show off their collection to one or more visitors. Lectures no problem. Demo's Yup. No need to drag equipment around the country. Precious/heavy kit does not get damaged. Fully International Zero cost. The only downside is the loss of the social aspect. Rod Smallwood (The DecCollector) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Walls Sent: 06 August 2007 15:04 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: UK VCF? Pete Turnbull said: > On 05/08/2007 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hire a genny. >> >> How stable is the frequency of such a unit? Remember many larger disk >> drives have their spindle speed set by mains freqeucy. > > To say nothing of the fact that the output is often nothing like a > sine wave, and many devices don't take kindly to that. Thanks to Yorkshire Electricity Distribution Ltd. being bloody useless, I am considerably more intimate with my building's generator than I was a few short weeks ago, so this is a subject close to my heart! Anyway, the long and the short is that gennys certainly can produce reliable power - more reliable than YEDL, anyway. Our unit is an Iveco 6l 4-stroke diseasel driving a MarelliMotori genset, generating 150Kva of 440v 3phase. Output voltage and frequency are programmable, and frequency stability calibration is documented in the manual. Modern gennies would be more than capable of doing the job, and should be readily available for short-term lease. You'd be surprised how quiet and clean-running they are as well. Fuel isn't cheap though; IIRC running it at ~75% load it uses something in the order of 200 litres/day of diesel; it should be OK to use red diesel in a genny I think (for non-UKers - red diesel is diesel on which fuel tax hasn't been paid,) but you're still looking at a fair old cost. Oh, and to answer the original question - I'm up noorf in Yorkshire, although I'd actually prefer such an event to be in London. I'd be interested in going if it does happen, anyway. Cheers, Tim. PS. Word of advice - check the fuel controller pump relay. Nothing more annoying than being woken up at 3am because a poxy 5 quid relay has stuck and caused the header tank to run dry. Voice of bitter experience there ;-). (On the bright side, if that does happen I can now show you how to hand-prime a dry diesel engine :^).) -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 6 19:14:08 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:14:08 +0100 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186445648.15016.2.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 16:28 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: In danger of drifting wildly offtopic again, but here goes: > 3) Gordon Pearce: > > > I would call it something completely different if I was going to run > > one. If people are going to get all precious about their valuable > > trademarks then sod 'em. > > I'm not getting "precious". I've put a lot of time, energy and MONEY into > developing the Vintage Computer Festival. If someone wants to put on an > event that celebrates vintage computers, fine! More power to you!!! Just > don't use the name "Vintage Computer Festival" unless it's actually > organized under the tutelage of the VCF. > > *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage > Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but > find your own name. I think you'd be on a slightly sticky legal wicket with that one. I don't know what the situation is in the US, but I suspect you'd have a hard time trademarking anything as generic as "Vintage Computer Festival" in the UK. > > Sellam, if you're so enthusiastic as to set up a "rival" VCF to spite > > someone setting up a VCF-a-like, why not just set up a VCF in the UK? > > I would love to, Gordon. Perhaps you'd like to offer to be the local > coordinator? I'll do what I can, but it looks like a lot of people want it to be in England. > As I've said numerous times previously (why do some people seem to miss > this part?) I am always happy to expand the VCF to locations throughout > the world, where ever there is enough interest to have an event where > enough people will attend to justify the enormous commitment of time and > money that is involved. I will share with you my hard won experience and > secrets in pulling off a successful event, share my large list of contacts > to help book speakers, help attract and organize exhibitors and vendors, > get the word out through the VCF mailing list, help with advertising, and > even help with financing. Great. If you're really up for it, I can put you in touch with people who organise Linuxy events. That seems like a good place to start. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 6 19:15:52 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:15:52 +0100 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186445752.15016.5.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 16:28 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: Incidentally: > *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage > Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but > find your own name. This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the US VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to go "It's *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" puts me off any further involvement. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 6 19:18:08 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:18:08 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186445888.15016.8.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 23:47 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > We've tried small generators as backup to small UPs units, and they > > don't get on. Big ones are OK, that's the sort of thing they're > > designed for. > > What do you mean by 'large' and 'small'? For a VCF-like event, I would > expect one of those large units that's trasported on a lorry, the sort of > thing you use for a large outdoor concert, or an entire (large) building > site, not one of those little things you pick up with one hand and give > you 13A (@240V) if you're lucky. Yes, the lorry-transported ones are what I had in mind. Part of the improvement is because they have a massive torquey engine, a massive flywheel (waaaaay bigger than the engine needs) and a big heavy rotor in the generator. All this rotating mass adds up to something that won't change speed much as the load fluctuates. The little 5bhp Honda gennies are a bit out of this league. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 7 06:51:56 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:51:56 -0400 Subject: 8085 vs 8085A Message-ID: <0JME00IJ3JKXOIK3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8085 vs 8085A > From: "Steven Canning" > Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:11:07 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >> Hi, >> >> I was looking through my collection yesterday and was testing out an old >> Intel SDK85 system. I noticed the main processor is stamped 8085, which >> means this chip is either an 8085 or the "A" was not printed properly and >> the chip is really an 8085A. >> >> I have a few 8085 systems and a box of 8085 CPUs. I checked them all and >> every one of them is an 8085A. I don't think I have ever seen an 8085, >> they've all been 8085A types. >> >> Other than the stamp on the chip, is there anyway I can tell the >difference >> between an 8085 and an 8085A? Furthermore, is the 8085 rare, and I should >> put the chip away, or is it nothing special? >> >> Why did Intel bring out the 8085A? Were there issues with the 8085? >> >> Seeyuzz >> River > > >There were multiple versions of 8085 microprocessors. The original version >of the 8085 microprocessor without suffix "A" was manufactured by Intel >only, and was very quickly replaced with 8085A containing bug fixes. A few >years after that, around 1980, Intel introduced 8085AH - HMOS version of >8085A. There was also 80C85A - CMOS version of the 8085A. It's not clear if >80C85 was ever manufactured by Intel or not, but it was produced by at least It was. Supposededly the 8085 was used to proto the intel CMOS process for the 80C48 and 80C188 and later parts. >two second source manufacturers - OKI and Tundra Semiconductor. Tundra >Semiconductor manufactured the fastest 8085 microprocessor running at 8 MHz. I have a few 8mhz intel 8085AH-2s (16mhz clock crystal) HMOSII, those are scarce but do exist. Intel did make the 8085AH (HMOSII) at 6mhz as well. >Second source manufacturers: AMD, Mitsubishi, NEC, OKI, Siemens, Toshiba. I have parts from all of them. I find the 8085 and Z80 to be good workhorse 8 bitters. Both enjoyed long sales lives. Allison >Best regards, Steven C. > > From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 7 09:02:13 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:02:13 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708071343.l77DhsXd098859@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200708071343.l77DhsXd098859@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1186495333.455.11.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-08-07 at 09:43 -0400, Bob Bradlee wrote: > I joke about Lucas electrics mostly due to the high price and shortage of spares on this side of the pound. > BUT as for leakers, thats no joke, I have seen oil drip pans under new cars in the showroom. I've not really had as much trouble with Lucas electrics fitted to cars as with Magneti-Marelli electrics on Italian cars (I would have dearly loved to have crashed our old Fiat Regatta Weekend into something heavy, had it been capable of running for more than a few minutes or going faster than walking pace). One of my Landrover-owning friends makes uncalled-for remarks about the suspension on my Citro?ns leaking oil - bloody cheek, since the suspension is about the only thing on the Landie that *doesn't* leak oil! Gordon (hugely offtopic, and I'll stop now) From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 7 19:51:49 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:51:49 +0100 Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1186534309.455.29.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-08-07 at 08:22 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was looking at a bunch of Tandon TM100-4M floppy drives that I've > had for a (very) long time and saw something that never registered > with me before. > > On the underside of the disk release latch (on the faceplate), a > small silver sticker. Most say "100 TPI DSR", but about one in every > 4 says "96 TPI DSR". All drives are 100 TPI TM-100-4Ms, BTW as > identified on the body sticker. Perhaps there's not *that* much difference between 96tpi and 100tpi? Possibly within the margin of error of the mechanism? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 8 02:19:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 08:19:28 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 01:24 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 05 August 2007 19:53, Brad Parker wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >> I remember seeing one magazine article for such a device, but I wasn't > > >> that > > >> > > >> thrilled with the design of it. It used some sort of counter chips to > > >> step through the addresses of the target RAM, and wasn't very flexible > > >> in its approach to things. > > > > If you're talking about eprom emulators, "back in the day" I used to > > use a device called a "PROMICE". > > > > It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very handy. > > It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But > > gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... > > > > I looked on ebay and didn't find one, sadly; I did find, however an > > "ostrich 2.0" USB eprom emulator which looks nice. www.moates.net > > > > Apparently there is a large community of people out there hacking engine > > ECU's. who knew? :-) > > > > -brad > > Actually, I did. :-) > > Ages ago, probably all the way back in oh, 1993 or so (?) I stumbled across > a mailing list calling itself DIY-EFI, and that's what those guys were all > about Much of it *way* over my head, and I've completely lost track of it, > but it did make for some fascinating reading for a while there. There's also Megasquirt, where you can buy the hardware platform as a kit, and download the circuit diagrams and firmware source code. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 8 02:36:12 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:36:12 +0100 Subject: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023122@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I remember the Havant IBM Disk plant. I went on a visit there once. It was one enormous clean room. The drives they made had a name - something like Eagle, Sparrow or Wren Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: 08 August 2007 04:05 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM "Type 0667" ESDI disk information? jim wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> > Is there any country of origin on the 667? There was a division in > Havant that manufactured drives in this time frame, that IBM sold to > the plant managers, that is now Xyratex. If memory serves, those series were made in several different places, including California and Mexico. Probably one or two other places too. Peace... Sridhar From bqt at softjar.se Wed Aug 8 05:36:10 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 12:36:10 +0200 Subject: Help with PDP-11 Unibus Map Hardware / Software under RT-11 In-Reply-To: <200708080121.l781JvvN055673@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708080121.l781JvvN055673@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46B99C9A.7040703@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" skrev: > Hopefully, this request is clear enough to be understood. Both the > software and the hardware portion of the questions are independently > important, so please answer one aspect even if you can't help with > the other. > > Over the past 30 years of using PDP-11 software (RT-11 over 95%) > and hardware, I have never had occasion to use a Unibus system with > more than 256 KB of memory (such as a PDP-11/34). > > I would appreciate help in understanding the Unibus Map hardware which > (if I understand its purpose correctly) is to convert 18 bit addresses given > to a Unibus controller into 22 bit addresses for real physical memory for > systems like a PDP-11/84 and perform DMA from / to the hard drive. > > Also helpful would be an explanation of the related software used under > RT-11 along with exactly where the Unibus Map hardware is located > on a real DEC system (on the CPU board I presume) since the identical > CPU board is used for both the Qbus and the Unibus with both the > PDP-11/84 and the PDP-11/94. I can't answer how RT-11 do things, but I can explain the hardware side of it. First of all, the Unibus map is not in the CPU board of the 11/84 and 11/94. It's on the Unibus adapter. KT-whatever. The whole thing works in a rather simple way, actually. All Unibus devices do DMA to an 18-bit address. That can never change, so think of this 256 K of memory as a separate memory area, that don't correspond to your actual physical memory. It's all fake. Then divide this whole 256K into 32 equal sized pieces. That will give you 32 pieces of 8K memory ranges. The same as a page on a PDP-11, but that's not that relevant. :-) Now, when a device will do DMA, it will do DMA to one, or several of these 32 pages. So you'll have an 18-bit address, of which the high 5 bits tells you which "page" it will go to. The Unibus Map have 32 registers. One for each of these "pages". So the high 5 bits of the 18-bit DMA address will select a register in the Unibus map. The Unibus map will in turn give you a 16-bit value from this. This will be the high 16 bits of a 22-bit memory address. The 13 low bits of the DMA address is added to this 22-bit address to give the final physical address to do DMA to. So, in essence, what a driver will do when a Unibus map is present, is to find some free Unibus map registers (free in the meaning that no other driver is using them, so you need to keep track of these, as a resource). Or you could statically allocate some map registers for your driver, if you prefer, and if all drivers combined don't need more than 31 map registers (I think that the last register might not be usable, but I'm not sure. It basically gives a mapping for what otherwise is the I/O page). Once a driver have decided which map register to use, that will decide what 18-bit address range to use for the DMA. So the 18-bit address is calculated from the physical address truncated, and the address for the range covered by the map register. The map register is loaded with the corresponding physical address high bits, and then you fire the I/O. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From lynch610 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 8 17:35:00 2007 From: lynch610 at sbcglobal.net (Andrew and Kay Lynch) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 18:35:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for S-100 board documentation Message-ID: <000001c7da0c$5b9ac1c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am restoring some S-100 boards and am looking for documentation. Specifically, for these S-100 boards: Bob Mullen TB-1 (bus extender with logic probe) Morrow's Microstuff MMSP2 (serial/parallel ports) Measurement Systems and Controls Inc, Model DMB-6400 (64K DRAM) Matrox ALT 512-AS (video graphics) VectorGraphics Flash-Writer (video text, *not* the Flash-Writer II) If anyone has documentation, especially schematics, for any or all of the above, please contact me. I think Herb as one of them which I will be ordering soon but the rest appear to be unavailable on the internet as best I can tell. I am able to scan documentation so if you have paper copies and could either make a copy or send me the original and I will return it as you request. I will pay for shipping, handling fees, as appropriate etc. Your help is much appreciated. Thank you in advance. Andrew Lynch PS, I posted this on comp.os.cpm but no responses yet. I will send any copies I get to the usual S-100 archives assuming I get sender's permission to do so. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 9 01:41:59 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:41:59 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1186641719.22574.1.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK _all_ have been sued somewhere on classic computer equipment. And the 14-pin DIN connector that had the same shape but about twice the diameter, and same overall "look". I've already commented on the effects of mixing up an Amstrad PC1640 power cable and an Atari ST disk drive cable ("Hey I used my mate's Amstrad monitor on my ST but now it won't boot!"). Gordon From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 06:46:36 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:46:36 +0100 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <1186445752.15016.5.camel@elric> References: <1186445752.15016.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <575131af0708090446o760e2435h2a84277bbdbe6f64@mail.gmail.com> On 07/08/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 16:28 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Incidentally: > > > *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage > > Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but > > find your own name. > > This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the US > VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to go "It's > *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" puts me off > any further involvement. Actually, you have my pretty much complete agreement on that point. Saying "look, it's my name, I run a business, please talk to me about using it", fine, no problem. Saying "it's mine, you want to steal it, I will hunt you down" - well, that bespeaks some very poor things about the person making the statement. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 07:01:29 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 13:01:29 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts Message-ID: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.com> I've tried to make a couple of points which seem to have sunk unnoticed. While you're all happily arguing about the comparative virtues of various models of generator, I have pointed out that there are already very large-scale computer shows happening in the UK on a regular basis: the commercial LAN parties. If a venue can handle a thousand plus PCs, it can handle a few hundred vintage computers. These places would seem to me to naturally be high on the list of candidate venues. I asked for commentary about the venue for the largest of these, Multiplay. http://www.multiplay.co.uk/ There is one this coming weekend. Perhaps someone in the area - Newbury - could pop over and check it out briefly and report back? Are listers even /aware/ that there are multiple such events every year in this country with literally *thousands* of gamers attending, the majority bringing their own hand-built high-end customised PCs to play on? The custom PC building fraternity is probably the biggest computer enthusiast scene or group in the world today. It's relevant to us. Highly relevant, I submit; their attendees could be some of ours, for a start, and their organizers could potentially tell or teach us a lot. Secondly, there is an existing UK retrocomputing event, although it's not that regular. It's CGE-UK. Here are a couple of reports from past ones: http://www.ukretro.co.uk/cge2004.htm http://www.consolepassion.co.uk/cge-show-report.htm http://www.acornelectron.co.uk/eug/revs/misc/r-cge.html I was at one of these - I don't remember now if it was '04 or '05. It was good fun. Strong games emphasis, which is of little interest to me, but a vast amount of fascinating hardware - all manner of 1980s exotica and obscurities, plus stuff from the '50s, '60s and '70s. For instance, as a child of the (computing) 1980s, I punched my first ever punch card and I handled some core store for the first time in my life. Several list members were there exhibiting. Care to stop debating generators and start making some constructive suggestions, folks? :?) For what it's worth, I was (somewhat peripherally) involved in the running of the 2005 World Science Fiction Convention in Glasgow. I know a lot of people involved in running SF cons and have some useful contacts from that field; I attend up to half a dozen such events a year. This may not sound terribly relevant, but the Worldcon is the largest amateur-run event of any kind in the world and it happens without fail every single year and it's been running for more than 60 years now. There is much we could potentially learn from them. They know how to put on a big event for hundreds or thousands of attendees with no professional help or involvement and a starting budget of zero or close to it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 9 07:44:58 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 05:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <1186445752.15016.5.camel@elric> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Aug 7, 7 01:15:52 am" Message-ID: <200708091244.l79CiwgZ009804@floodgap.com> > > *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage > > Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but > > find your own name. > > This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the US > VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to go "It's > *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" puts me off > any further involvement. I'm not understanding what your objection is. Sellam has put a lot of work into building what works out to be a brand. Is he not allowed to have some protection on the name, or are classic computer events somehow exempt from being trademarked? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." --- From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 9 08:28:37 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:28:37 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023114@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023114@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200708090928.37205.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 06 August 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > What about a VVCF = Virtual Vintage Computer Festival? > Via a Website to webcams at list members locations. > If around they can show off their collection to one or more visitors. > Lectures no problem. > Demo's Yup. > No need to drag equipment around the country. > Precious/heavy kit does not get damaged. > Fully International > Zero cost. > > The only downside is the loss of the social aspect. >From being to and organizing some VCFs, I'd say most of the point what the social aspect. Having some virtual on-line thing pretty much completely negates the point of having one. Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Walls > Sent: 06 August 2007 15:04 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: UK VCF? > > Pete Turnbull said: > > On 05/08/2007 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Hire a genny. > >> > >> How stable is the frequency of such a unit? Remember many larger > >> disk > >> > >> drives have their spindle speed set by mains freqeucy. > > > > To say nothing of the fact that the output is often nothing like a > > sine wave, and many devices don't take kindly to that. > > Thanks to Yorkshire Electricity Distribution Ltd. being bloody > useless, I am considerably more intimate with my building's generator > than I was a few short weeks ago, so this is a subject close to my > heart! > > Anyway, the long and the short is that gennys certainly can produce > reliable power - more reliable than YEDL, anyway. Our unit is an > Iveco 6l 4-stroke diseasel driving a MarelliMotori genset, generating > 150Kva of 440v 3phase. Output voltage and frequency are > programmable, and frequency stability calibration is documented in > the manual. Modern gennies would be more than capable of doing the > job, and should be readily available for short-term lease. You'd be > surprised how quiet and clean-running they are as well. > > Fuel isn't cheap though; IIRC running it at ~75% load it uses > something in the order of 200 litres/day of diesel; it should be OK > to use red diesel in a genny I think (for non-UKers - red diesel is > diesel on which fuel tax hasn't been paid,) but you're still looking > at a fair old cost. > > > Oh, and to answer the original question - I'm up noorf in Yorkshire, > although I'd actually prefer such an event to be in London. I'd be > interested in going if it does happen, anyway. > > Cheers, > Tim. > > > PS. Word of advice - check the fuel controller pump relay. Nothing > more annoying than being woken up at 3am because a poxy 5 quid relay > has stuck and caused the header tank to run dry. Voice of bitter > experience there ;-). (On the bright side, if that does happen I can > now show you how to hand-prime a dry diesel engine :^).) -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 08:53:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:53:41 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <200708091244.l79CiwgZ009804@floodgap.com> References: <200708091244.l79CiwgZ009804@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46BB1C65.1020105@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage >>> Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but >>> find your own name. >> This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the US >> VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to go "It's >> *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" puts me off >> any further involvement. > > I'm not understanding what your objection is. Sellam has put a lot of work > into building what works out to be a brand. Is he not allowed to have some > protection on the name, or are classic computer events somehow exempt from > being trademarked? Indeed. I view Sellam's attitude as a response to all of the people who recently were saying, in effect, "Screw your copyright, I'm using your name anyway!" Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 08:55:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:55:17 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708090928.37205.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023114@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200708090928.37205.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46BB1CC5.5010502@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 06 August 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> What about a VVCF = Virtual Vintage Computer Festival? >> Via a Website to webcams at list members locations. >> If around they can show off their collection to one or more visitors. >> Lectures no problem. >> Demo's Yup. >> No need to drag equipment around the country. >> Precious/heavy kit does not get damaged. >> Fully International >> Zero cost. >> >> The only downside is the loss of the social aspect. > >>From being to and organizing some VCFs, I'd say most of the point what > the social aspect. Having some virtual on-line thing pretty much > completely negates the point of having one. My favorite part of the VCF experience is actually the Saturday night dinner. That makes the volunteer work "worth it" for me. I don't often get to socialize with like-minded people. Peace... Sridhar From James at jdfogg.com Thu Aug 9 08:56:24 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:56:24 -0400 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> It is hard for me to admit this, but I have a PDP-11/23 that I will never get around to doing anything with. I need to find a new home for it. It's complete, was running, needs RL02 disk packs. Comes with two VT100's and an LA36 Decwriter II. It is configured exactly as in this picture (I don't think it's a plus though). http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/1123PLUS.JPG I have cash into this project. I'm wondering if there is any value to this system. Have PDP's reached "collectable" status yet? James - From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 9 09:03:25 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:03:25 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <46BB1C65.1020105@gmail.com> References: <200708091244.l79CiwgZ009804@floodgap.com> <46BB1C65.1020105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708091003.25977.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 09 August 2007 09:53, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the > >>> "Vintage Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do > >>> what you like, but find your own name. > >> > >> This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the > >> US VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to > >> go "It's *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, > >> muahahahaha" puts me off any further involvement. > > > > I'm not understanding what your objection is. Sellam has put a lot > > of work into building what works out to be a brand. Is he not > > allowed to have some protection on the name, or are classic > > computer events somehow exempt from being trademarked? > > Indeed. I view Sellam's attitude as a response to all of the people > who recently were saying, in effect, "Screw your copyright, I'm using > your name anyway!" It'd be nice if Sellam could at least figure out how to say this in a non-"I'm going to ruin your life for doing something that's not nice" sort of way. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Aug 9 09:32:48 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 08:32:48 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <46BB2590.70505@e-bbes.com> James Fogg wrote: > It's complete, was running, needs RL02 disk packs. Comes with two > VT100's and an LA36 Decwriter II. It is configured exactly as in this > picture (I don't think it's a plus though). The price depends "heavily" on the location where it is ;-) From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 9 09:39:48 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 10:39:48 -0400 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:56:24 EDT." <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200708091439.l79EdmFD032270@mwave.heeltoe.com> "James Fogg" wrote: > >It's complete, was running, needs RL02 disk packs. Comes with two >VT100's and an LA36 Decwriter II. It is configured exactly as in this >picture (I don't think it's a plus though). worthless. but I'll haul it away for free, just cause I'm a nice guy :-) where is it? >I have cash into this project. I'm wondering if there is any value to >this system. Have PDP's reached "collectable" status yet? My impression is that a working system with rl02's (and a vt100) is of value to dec-geeks, but not a lot on the street. Maybe a hundred dollars on ebay if you are lucky, but the weight of that system will hold many people back (i.e. very expensive to ship) plus, 11/23 cpu's are dime a dozen. the LA36 if it's working is not common, nor are working vt100's. They seem to fetch $100 each. working 11/73's in plastic seemed to be fetching a few hundred on ebay, but I think that is because they are resonably fast, run unix and are not that expensive to ship. just my $.02 -brad From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Aug 9 09:42:25 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:42:25 +0100 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <200708091003.25977.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 9/8/07 15:03, "Patrick Finnegan" wrote: > It'd be nice if Sellam could at least figure out how to say this in a > non-"I'm going to ruin your life for doing something that's not nice" > sort of way. Copyright / Trademark issues aside, surely we can agree that: 1) Using the VCF name without Sellam's blessing isn't FAIR. 2) Organising a VCF without Sellam's input isn't INTELLIGENT. ...and move on? -Austin. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Aug 9 09:45:42 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 07:45:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for manual for IME 86s desktop calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > My dad's had an IME 86s calculator in his office for years, > since he rescued it from his school's surplus sale a dozen > years back. Cool old desktop > unit: 16 nixie tubes for the display, and a square root function! :) > > He's interested in finding a copy of the manual for it -- > anyone out there have a lead? > A wonderful machine, with a great design. The Italians managed to package a lot of machine into a relatively small footprint for the time. Very nice mechanical design and electronic elegance. Plus, with the addition of various peripheral devices (a progrmamer, paper tape reader/punch, and others), The 86 could serve as the "CPU" of a very capable "personal computing system". There's a lot of history relating to the IME calculators, particularly the IME 84 (IME's first electronic calculator) and future calculator industry developments. I haven't come across a manual for one of these machines yet, and have been looking for a long time. If you do happen to come across one, I'd appreciate if you'd let me know. Of course, I'll keep your message in my reference folder, and if I come across a manual, I'll get in touch. I know well how these machines operate. If you have any questions on how to operate it, drop me an off-list Email. Rick Bensene r-i-c-k-b-at-b-e-n-s-e-n-e.c-o-m (delete dashes, and replace "at" with the obvious character) The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 9 09:47:55 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: <200708062031.l76KVSRW003793@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200708062031.l76KVSRW003793@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Columbo-3L.jpg They do not belong with the SAGE DMC console in the picture. They resemble the drives with the Philco 2000 system in this picture: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-0755.jpg ...but they're not an exact match. Any ideas? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 10:30:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:30:06 -0400 Subject: Data IO 29B info? In-Reply-To: <46BAB3B0.5050703@philpem.me.uk> References: <51ea77730708081541t1fbd55ffp9f93fb47fa8470b0@mail.gmail.com> <087201c7da46$108f6f70$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46BAB3B0.5050703@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <02D563AA-6AB3-4AA4-9376-8A8D159E9AC0@neurotica.com> On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:26 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> http://web.archive.org/web/20061208004044/www.leopardcats.com/dio/ >> dataio29b.htm Someone asked for info on this programmer, I >> found this page and maybe it can be of some help > > All the files are 404... but I have them here. > > I could throw them on my website somewhere if anyone wants them... Yes please! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 9 10:26:07 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 10:26:07 -0500 Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <200708062031.l76KVSRW003793@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070809102456.07f8b6c0@mail> At 09:47 AM 8/9/2007, you wrote: > Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? What is that, an episode of Columbo? That may be a Hollwood set and re-dressed, re-painted drives and not a working mainframe center. :-) - John From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 10:32:46 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 08:32:46 -0700 Subject: Mystery tape drive Message-ID: <46BB339E.2030202@bitsavers.org> > Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? Ampex TM-2 From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 9 10:26:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:26:22 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708091126.22555.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 08 August 2007 18:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Monday 06 August 2007 09:30, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > > On 06/08/07, David Griffith wrote: > > > > Can someone recommend a source for the 7-pin PCB-mount DIN jacks > > > > used for the power jack on a Commodore 64? > > > > > > Could you just use an 8-pin jack (like digi-key A32316-ND) and ignore > > > the middle pin (cut it on the PCB side)? > > > > Those 8-pin sockets will accept the 7-pin plugs all right -- I once had > > a repair where someone plugged their power supply into the video > > connector, and the attached circuitry was NOT happy! :-) They'll also > > accept the 5-pin connector, as my bench test video/audio cable was > > equpped with such. > > And for that matter the 3-pin DIN plug will fit said socket. True, but it's been a really long time since I ran into one of those... > This explains the strange pin numbering of these sockets (for the 7 pin > it's 6 1 4 2 5 3 7 rounf the arc, on the 8 pin it's the same with pin 8 > in the middle, etc) You start wit he 3 pin plug, which has the pins 1 2 3 > in the obvious, sensible, order. The 5 pin added pins 4 and 5 between > them. The 7 pin added pins 6 and 7 on the ends. > > The copatibility is intentiona./ The original use of this connector was > for audio applications, for a mono tape recorder socket. Pin one was the > output from the radio (input to the tape recorder). Pin 2 was ground. And > pin 3 was the input to the eadio (output from the tape recorder). For > stereo. the 5 pin plug was used, pin 2 remained earth, pins 1 nad 3 kept > their old functions for the ledt-hand channel ,while pins 4 and 5 were > the corresding functions for the right-hand channel. First time I saw these connectors was on the back of a radio my mother bought in Germany in 1960. :-) > There are actually 2 other 5 pin DIN connectors. The one we've been > talking about is commonly called 'type A' or '180 degree'. There's a > 'type B' or '240 degree' that has a similar compatability with the 6 pin > connecotr, and those were originally intended for 'non audio signals', > for example PSU inputs to a battery tape recorder/radio, remote controls, > slide projector control, etc. And there's the 'type C' or '360 degree' or > 'Quincuncial' that was sometimes used for headphones. > > There's also an 8 pin version with the 2 pins at the end of the arc > offset. It's incompatible with the normal 7 and 8 pin plugs (although > AFAIK the 3 pi nand 5 pin plugs will fit). I've never seen an analagous 7 > pin connector. I knew that there was at least one other variant. > AFAIK _all_ have been sued somewhere on classic computer equipment. And then there's that "mini-" stuff that seems so prevalent these days. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 10:56:12 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 08:56:12 -0700 Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: <46BB339E.2030202@bitsavers.org> References: <46BB339E.2030202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46BB391C.4080203@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? > > Ampex TM-2 > > To be more specific, Ampex OEMed the transport to lots of different computer companies. I'll have to do some more digging to identify which company that particular configuration is from. The manual control panel underneath the transport looks like SDS, though the cabinet color is wrong for anything pre-Sigma. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 11:25:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:25:08 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <1186534309.455.29.camel@elric> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <1186534309.455.29.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46BADD74.27340.DDCF46A@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2007 at 1:51, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Perhaps there's not *that* much difference between 96tpi and 100tpi? > Possibly within the margin of error of the mechanism? Almost certainly not. 100 tpi and 96 tpi drives locate cylinder 0 in a different place--and over 77 cylinders, the difference is substantial. My guess is that the faceplates came prelabeled and the factory guys just grabbed the 96 tpi faceplates when they ran out of 100 tpi ones. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 11:33:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:33:39 -0700 Subject: 8085 vs 8085A In-Reply-To: <0JMD00MMBA4VMRX0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JMD00MMBA4VMRX0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46BADF73.18449.DE4BE38@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2007 at 15:30, Allison wrote: > 8085 was 1977 and the 8085A from what I have was soon before! Date > codes suggest late 1977 (week 52 1977) for one 8085A. I suspect > the differnces are processing only and they are interchangeable. As part of a group that was developing systems using the 8085 starting in late 1976 using pre-production steppings, I believe that I can state with fair certainty that there were differences. The timing of the select outputs is sligtly different and there is a race condition (IIRC) between the TRAP and x.5 interrupts. The 8085A took care of these--and we dropped the additional "glue" to fix the problems when we went to the second revision of the CPU board and the AH HCMOS parts. While it's true that you can always use an 8085A in a board designed for an 8085 part, the converse is not true. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 9 11:22:20 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:22:20 -0500 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.co m> References: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070809110254.07f92488@mail> At 07:01 AM 8/9/2007, Liam Proven wrote: >I've tried to make a couple of points which seem to have sunk unnoticed. >While you're all happily arguing about the comparative virtues of >various models of generator, I have pointed out that there are already >very large-scale computer shows happening in the UK on a regular >basis: the commercial LAN parties. Yes, you're right - classic computers can tag along at many sorts of events. I recently attended the Midwest Gaming Classic: http://www.midwestgamingclassic.com/ Most of the place was jammed with delightful old pinball and stand-up arcade machines, and exhibitors selling parts to rebuild the same, but they also had a side event with a display of many 70s and 80s PCs and gaming consoles. It was quite well done. There were many models I hadn't seen in person before. Some were running, some under glass. The web site reminds me that at least And both the young kids and the old-timers seemed to be enjoying that part of the exhibit. (I was baffled to see my own boys (9, 10, 12) to spend a half hour cheerfully playing Doom on a network of old G3 Macs.) It was held in several ballrooms of a hotel / conference center. Loading docks were available and apparently they handled the power concerns. For the non-USAians, Oconomowoc (pop. 12,000, my old home town) is about 30 minutes from Milwaukee (pop. ~1.7M region) in the Midwest. Exhibitors and attendees drew from Chicago as well, roughly two hours away. Gaming is huge, and there's always a game or two you can run on a classic machine, so there's historical overlap and I'm sure the gamers would be very receptive. Retro is cool and you guys are holding the keys. - John From cc at corti-net.de Thu Aug 9 11:36:03 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: SORD Message-ID: I have a SORD M243 Mark V system that came with PIPS, BASIC and SGL. This Z80 system from 1982 seems to be interesting as it has a built-in color monitor and graphics capabilities. But whenever I load SGL (Sord Graphics Language) into memory I can't load anything other afterwards (like BASIC), I get "memory exhausted". The system has "only" 192 kB RAM and is expandable to up to over 700 kB. I wouldn't mind building a memory expansion but I don't have the description of the hardware, especially of the pseudo-S100 bus of this machine. Does anyone have a hardware manual or the description of the I/O bus? I'm also looking for other software like Fortran, MDOS distribution disks or even CP/M (not sure if there was a CP/M for the M243). Christian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 11:37:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:37:12 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2007 at 17:21, Allison wrote: > Works for me. The larger Eproms like 27128, 27256 and larger > I have loads of from old PCs that were junked. A ready supply > of fast and large (often CMOS) eproms make it easier to do that. > Though I had to mod my Prommer to do parts larger than 27256 > the code upgrade was easy. ...but the OP had neither eraser nor programmer for the things--and that was my point. Why bother using slow, obsolete parts when there are better alternatives available? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 11:51:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:51:37 -0700 Subject: Sharp MZ 2200 in SoCal anybody like these In-Reply-To: <46BAE05E.8000802@socal.rr.com> References: <0JME00IJ3JKXOIK3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BAE05E.8000802@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <46BAE3A9.13262.DF532D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2007 at 1:37, Mike Ford wrote: > The old computers are made by Sharp. The model > seems to be Personal Computer MZ 2200. Compete with > external 8 inch floppy drives. E waste, or > collectable? Fairly rare outside of Japan, particularly with the peripherals. 4MHz Z80A, 64K RAM, 48K display ram with color 320x200 display. Folks do collect the MZ series. If you don't want to collect it, I'm pretty sure that the fellow who runs this website would want it: http://www.sharpmz.org/index.html Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 9 12:12:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:12:04 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: <46BB2590.70505@e-bbes.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> <46BB2590.70505@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46BB4AE4.7070607@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > James Fogg wrote: >> It's complete, was running, needs RL02 disk packs. Comes with two >> VT100's and an LA36 Decwriter II. It is configured exactly as in this >> picture (I don't think it's a plus though). > > The price depends "heavily" on the location where it is ;-) La la la ... DRAT no computer. They don't go for a song anymore. I expect price you will get depends on your shipping options. I epect having no clue at prices that would start off with out shipping at about $1K. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 9 12:19:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:19:01 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> References: <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > There's also Megasquirt, where you can buy the hardware platform as a > kit, and download the circuit diagrams and firmware source code. Umm time to change the subject line ... Fuel injection has very little with a scratch built computer. PS. Looking at a PROM burner the lowest cost one I could find is $750. Where they that expensive (the programmers) back in the 70's when people used them? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 9 12:18:35 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 13:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: <46BB391C.4080203@bitsavers.org> References: <46BB339E.2030202@bitsavers.org> <46BB391C.4080203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2007, Al Kossow wrote: >> > Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? >> >> Ampex TM-2 >> > > To be more specific, Ampex OEMed the transport to lots of different computer > companies. I'll have to do some more digging to identify which company that > particular configuration is from. The manual control panel underneath the > transport looks like SDS, though the cabinet color is wrong for anything > pre-Sigma. Thanks, Al. It looked like an Ampex drive, with the triangular vacuum columns on either side. For the member who asked, yes it was a Columbo episode, "A Deadly State of Mind" from 04/27/1975. While it is certainly a Hollywood set and not a real machine room, the equipment appears to be genuine, albeit modified. The SAGE DMC section has had the neon lamps replaced with incandescant bulbs, more incandescant bulbs replacing coaxial jacks, and numerous other alterations. I have hundreds of pictures of similar SAGE equipment: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 9 12:36:56 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 10:36:56 -0700 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent Message-ID: <46BB50B8.EA9325AF@west.net> > > *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the "Vintage > > Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what you like, but > > find your own name. > > This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the US > VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to go "It's > *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" puts me off > any further involvement. I don't know how many people feel as I do, but I would not attend a VCF that Sellam was not a part of. He has put a great deal of time and money into promoting this event, and for someone to feel they can dogtail onto his work without his permission is just something I would not support. And the feeling that the wheel needs to be reinvented when Sellam has made it very clear he would support anyone wanting to put on a VCF, is beyond my understanding. And that said, how many people will be attending this years VCF at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View? I have very much enjoyed being able to put faces with names, and it is a great social event as well as being educational! Since I have a great deal of stuff to sell, I plan on bringing as much as I can with me :). It will be *wonderful* when I get the workbenches cleared off and I have enough time and room to work with this stuff again. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 9 13:04:07 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:07 +0100 Subject: Data IO 29B info? In-Reply-To: <02D563AA-6AB3-4AA4-9376-8A8D159E9AC0@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730708081541t1fbd55ffp9f93fb47fa8470b0@mail.gmail.com> <087201c7da46$108f6f70$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46BAB3B0.5050703@philpem.me.uk> <02D563AA-6AB3-4AA4-9376-8A8D159E9AC0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46BB5717.70404@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:26 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I could throw them on my website somewhere if anyone wants them... > > Yes please! So it was written, and so it shall be done: It's living there for the time being, but I've got archived copies of a few other dead websites that might be of interest to the community at large. Including, for instance, some neat stuff for the HP 1650 series logic analysers. Perhaps I should set up a 'Hall of Lost Files' on my site and dump my /Z_DRIVE/datasheets and /Z_DRIVE/test-equipment directories online. The bit problem is going to be indexing that great big lump of binary gibberish - the Datasheets directory alone is about half a gig in a good hundred or so files... That's the thing about the Internet, it just keeps fading away, a bit at a time... Not like libraries, nosiree... 8^P -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Aug 9 13:11:13 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 10:11:13 -0800 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46BB58C1.1000108@socal.rr.com> woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> There's also Megasquirt, where you can buy the hardware platform as a >> kit, and download the circuit diagrams and firmware source code. > > Umm time to change the subject line ... Fuel injection has very little > with a scratch built computer. > PS. Looking at a PROM burner the lowest cost one I could find is $750. > Where they that expensive (the programmers) back in the 70's when people > used them? My first eprom burner was scratch built on a Apple II project card, a bit of address decoding logic, couple buffers, and a dac with an opamp. Look around a bit and I am sure you will still find cheap and cheesy solutions, PC cards or something off the parallel printer connection. BTW hacking the EEC IV in my 91 Mustang passes the 10 year rule just fine. You can find a hack of the Bosch Jetronic EFI brain on ebay right now, its the way modern hot rods work. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 9 13:18:35 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 14:18:35 -0400 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070809140831.0385bd80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>There's also Megasquirt, where you can buy the hardware platform as a >>kit, and download the circuit diagrams and firmware source code. > >Umm time to change the subject line ... Fuel injection has very little >with a scratch built computer. >PS. Looking at a PROM burner the lowest cost one I could find is $750. >Where they that expensive (the programmers) back in the 70's when people >used them? $289 USD for the kit ($300 even shipped anywhere in the US): http://www.arlabs.com/syscost.htm It will do most stuff without adapters, but it *can* do 1702's if you buy an adapter for it, which costs $59.00 I have an Xeltec SuperPro/L - I think it was $189 refurbished. The page with their "legacy" refurb models is here: http://www.xeltek.com/pages.php?pageid=11 The cheapest they have will do 48-pin packages & is $315. **Still Too Expensive For You?** ePay is your friend. $50 _shipped_ gets you a version 5.0 Willem programmer: http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ130140361942 I don't believe these can do 1702's or any other 3-rail EPROM; but they seem to program durned near everything else! =-=-= This is not a complete list by any means... but shows you that programmers don't have to cost >$500! HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 9 13:39:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 12:39:21 -0600 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070809140831.0385bd80@mail.30below.com> References: <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <5.1.0.14.2.20070809140831.0385bd80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46BB5F59.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > $289 USD for the kit ($300 even shipped anywhere in the US): > > http://www.arlabs.com/syscost.htm > > It will do most stuff without adapters, but it *can* do 1702's if you > buy an adapter for it, which costs $59.00 They also have a Bi-polar prom adapter for $110, but I am not sure anymore if I can get 74SXX's parts that it programs. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 9 14:12:10 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:12:10 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <46BB50B8.EA9325AF@west.net> References: <46BB50B8.EA9325AF@west.net> Message-ID: <200708091512.10609.pat@computer-refuge.org> > > This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the > > US VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to > > go "It's *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" > > puts me off any further involvement. > > I don't know how many people feel as I do, but I would not attend a > VCF that Sellam was not a part of. He has put a great deal of time > and money into promoting this event, and for someone to feel they can > dogtail onto his work without his permission is just something I > would not support. Can we stop bickering about Sellam already? There seems to be plenty of people that think he's a God to classic computing, and plenty more people that he's been less than helpful to. Talking about this does nothing but inflame both sides. If I were Jay, I'd start unsubbing people who kept going on about this thread. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Aug 9 14:54:48 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 20:54:48 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <03D74F10-0900-4146-8164-CD9AB7AA3256@microspot.co.uk> > First a simple question, how many readers of this list are in the UK? > > If Bletchley Park might be able to do a VCF in two or three years > time, maybe we could do something much simpler in the mean time, > without using the VCF name. Just a get together of anyone in the UK > with an interest in old computers and hopefully a few who would > want to exhibit theirs. Who would be interested and about how much > space, if any would they want? > > I guess we would need to double that up to allow for aisles etc. > Then we'll know the size of venues to look for. By the way, I was > really thrown by the mention of the planet Venus, it took me a > while to work out it was a typo for venues :-) > > Then there's the question of vehicle parking. How many and are we > talking only cars and small vans or big vans and articulated lorries? To which the answers (so far) are (including someone else's very valid question of where they are) : Rob Manchester Ian Yorkshire At a push I would be happy to demo a few interesting machines Peter Turnbull York interested in exhibiting, and *maybe* assisting with organisation Julian Manchester Philip Pemberton West Yorkshire interested in visiting the show, and possibly exhibiting Andrew Burton south-east, a few miles from Cambridge. enough to have a table for my laptop & opened up Amiga I'd just bring my car Pete Edwards Rod Smallwood 50 miles west of London near the (in)famous Greenham Common Austin Pass Manchester some of my SGI machines transit van and could offer load space to other local exhibitors too Adrian Burgess Half way between Nottingham and Lincoln Andy Piercy Gordon JC Pearce half-way up Scotland, West side Stan Barr John Honniball North Bristol Tony Duell south-west London, near Richmond I'd want to bring at least one interesting toy along Pete (Ensor?) Birmingham James Southampton possibly showing my 340 node Transputer system Liam Proven Mitcham, SW London motor-tricycle Commented but didn't actually say was in UK: John Foust Tim Walls Leeds, Yorkshire but prefers London Mike Hatch Aldershot, Hampshire James Carter York Plus me, Roger Holmes Weald of Kent,70 miles south-east of London. Maybe a Lisa 2, my 1301 takes 3 months to assemble/debug and weighs 5 tons. Car So we have 23 people interested, very few exhibitors and a large geographic spread but with clusters in Yorkshire(5), Manchester(3) and London(2 plus 2 nearby). Thank you all very much for responding. For my t'pennyworth (and saying it as a southerner) it seems like an event within a few miles of the M62 would be feasible, but its too far away for me to get involved in organising. An event down south does not seem feasible to me, though any of you are welcome to see my 1301 (plus 'The Darling Buds of May' farm) if you're in the area, though please check I'll be home that day. Whilst I agree that the social aspect is important, I must say I'm also interested in Rod's idea of a virtual meeting of some sort. There's no way I could show you all my 1301 in person, but this would be a way to do it, but does it need to be interactive? If it was, it could still be recorded and put on a web site somewhere for all to see. Maybe this could in some way be interactive through this list. Could we do an introductory video to our machines (via U-Tube maybe if the list server itself doesn't have enough storage/bandwidth), then other listers could ask questions and ask for other things to be shown, and that way listers throughout the world could be involved. It also creates an archive which can maybe be preserved long after the machines themselves have become fatally non functional or even scrapped, or even just temporarily non functional for that matter. Roger Holmes. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Aug 9 14:20:53 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF or equivalent Message-ID: See, this is one part of the reasons why I don't actively follow the list: Patrick Finnegan said: > > Indeed. I view Sellam's attitude as a response to all of the people > > who recently were saying, in effect, "Screw your copyright, I'm using > > your name anyway!" > > It'd be nice if Sellam could at least figure out how to say this in a > non-"I'm going to ruin your life for doing something that's not nice" > sort of way. And this is from a friend even!! :/ First of all, how would I be ruining someone's life by running an event parallel to someone trying to steal my international brand name? I'm not threatening to burn down their house and kill their pets, for fuck's sake. I'm not even threatening to sue! I'm offering a rather democratic way to resolve the issue: go to the fake "VCF" or the real VCF, and see which one you prefer. I'm willing to bet that most people would choose the real VCF, and the fake "VCF" would suffer. The question is, does anyone really want to take the gamble? It would be easier to just come up with your own damn name. As others previously have pointed out, this is a brand identity I have developed over the course of 10 long years. I'm not going to let anyone use it unless I approve. I'd be an idiot to allow otherwise. If someone produced a cola and started selling it as "Pepsi", would you have sympathies with Pepsi or the person egregiously stealing the brand name? Anti-capitalist lefties aside, I have a pretty good idea that the legal system would side with Pepsi (the real one). Would you go to MacWorld run by Apple, or "MacWorld" run by a guy named Abdullah? And would you criticize Apple for suing the hell out of Abdullah for infringing on their trademark? Pat, you know the deal. You produce the VCF Midwest under an ad hoc license. Why should I let someone else just take it and run with it as they wish? I certainly wouldn't give you that type of leeway. Nor anyone else for that matter. Are UK nerds just anti-ownership in general, or only because I'm the one raising a beef over the prospect of someone stealing my brand identity? Unreal. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 15:15:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Are UK nerds just anti-ownership in general, It's Anti-Americanism! > or only because I'm the one > raising a beef over the prospect of someone stealing my brand identity? One should not raise beef in the UK. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 9 15:54:10 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 21:54:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <174177.8856.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mike Loewen wrote: Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Columbo-3L.jpg No, but I believe that is the Columbo film where he was at MITS. (I forget what MITS stood for). I don't think there are any other Columbo films with computers in them. There is one or two with electronic typewriters though. Yes, I have seen lots of Columbo's (about 40). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 16:01:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:01:06 -0600 Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:54:10 +0100. <174177.8856.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Mike Loewen wrote: > Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Columbo-3L.jpg Should we assume they are IBM because they are blue? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 9 16:06:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:06:29 -0500 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070809160501.08089120@mail> At 02:20 PM 8/9/2007, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Are UK nerds just anti-ownership in general, or only because I'm the one >raising a beef over the prospect of someone stealing my brand identity? I'm 100% with Sellam on this one. I thought he was being polite the first time around, as well as the second. In general, though, I would've simply ignored the ankle-biters who thought it would be nifty to usurp the name. If the effort would move ahead seriously, I doubt that no grown-up would seriously consider using the VCF name without Sellam's blessing. - John From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 9 16:17:24 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 22:17:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <299813.63443.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Are UK nerds just anti-ownership in general, > > It's Anti-Americanism! He's not speaking for all of us. >> or only because I'm the one >> raising a beef over the prospect of someone >> stealing my brand identity? > > One should not raise beef in the UK. > > -- > Will Yeah, another outbreak of foot & mouth desease, or whatever it is this time. More cows being killed :( Getting back on topic, can we please stop arguing and just start setting up plans for this thing, even if nothing is in concrete yet. The webcam idea is cool. I was thinking of attempting a "fly-through" (or perhaps fly-over) my opened up (broken) Amiga 600 sometime. I had planned to upload it to YouTube, but I have no problems putting it elsewhere too. Not sure how good or bad it will turn out, but I did get an extension cable for my webcam (without it I can't have video & sound due to the positions of both sockets on my laptop!). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. Am attempting to have a play with the copper-list on my A600 (emulated under WinUAE). Has anyone done this before? Anyone care to give me some pointers, or example code? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 9 16:28:02 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 22:28:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708090928.37205.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <595598.46061.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote:> >From being to and organizing some VCFs, I'd > say most of the point what > the social aspect. Having some virtual on-line > thing pretty much > completely negates the point of having one. > > Pat > I agree. Being able to see kit up close and chat to fellow enthusiasts would be great. However, with the way things have been going doing it online may be the only way, unless people can get past arguing about the name. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Aug 9 16:42:39 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:42:39 -0700 Subject: Mountain View - was UK VCF or equivalent Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6804@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Marvin Johnston writes: And that said, how many people will be attending this years VCF at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View? I have very much enjoyed being able to put faces with names, and it is a great social event as well as being educational! Since I have a great deal of stuff to sell, I plan on bringing as much as I can with me :). It will be *wonderful* when I get the workbenches cleared off and I have enough time and room to work with this stuff again. -------------------- I thought you were making progress with the TRW and Livermore swap meets. That's a couple of loads a month! Yes, I will be at Mountain View. And have already lined up a couple of people who want to see some of the old CDC machines I have. They are too heavy for the VCF, but can have visitors out to the house. Won't have much to sell. What is the VCF policy anyway? Can you do some dealing during the show? Or is it strictly show with the dealing outside or offline some where? If you can sell, what is the cost for a booth or table? Billy From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 9 16:47:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:47:19 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708091747.19360.pat@computer-refuge.org> [Note to Jay: I'm sorry to continue this thread...] On Thursday 09 August 2007, Sellam Ismail wrote: > See, this is one part of the reasons why I don't actively follow the > list: > > Patrick Finnegan said: > > > Indeed. I view Sellam's attitude as a response to all of the > > > people who recently were saying, in effect, "Screw your > > > copyright, I'm using your name anyway!" > > > > It'd be nice if Sellam could at least figure out how to say this in > > a non-"I'm going to ruin your life for doing something that's not > > nice" sort of way. > > Pat, you know the deal. You produce the VCF Midwest under an ad hoc > license. Why should I let someone else just take it and run with it > as they wish? I certainly wouldn't give you that type of leeway. > Nor anyone else for that matter. Yes I do. And, I wasn't suggesting that someone should use the VCF name. I was simply suggesting that you might just be polite and ASK people not to do it, rather than threaten them in some way. Oh, and it bothers me when people working towards the same goal (a classic computer expo type event) quibble over little things like trademarks. Can't we get past that, and back to something productive and useful? So Sellam doesn't want you to use "VCF" without his consent. Pick some other name and be done with it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Aug 9 16:53:12 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:53:12 -0700 Subject: Burners - was newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Mike Ford wrote: Look around a bit and I am sure you will still find cheap and cheesy solutions, PC cards or something off the parallel printer connection. --------------- Maybe that is something I can sell at the next VCF. For years, I bought burners when I saw them but never used them. I know I have some of the parallel port types, plus some that plug into PC busses. Even a couple that work on the Apple II. And recently, I bought a spate of Data I/O 19's, a couple of 29B's and several other assorted models. I usually tear them apart for the parts and toss the chassis. Although the Data I/O 100 has the perfect chassis for a project I am working on, so there I kept the chassis and tossed some of the parts. Did the same for some HP 1611 Microsprocessor Logic Analyzers. Maybe I should take them to the VCF to sell? Most flea market buyers don't seem to know what they are. Billy From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Aug 9 17:59:13 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:59:13 -0600 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <595598.46061.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <595598.46061.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BB9C41.3040107@brutman.com> After a few weeks of this it is growing tiring - the amount of traffic just for a UK VCF seems to warrant it's own mailing list! Mike From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Aug 9 16:58:47 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:58:47 -0700 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6806@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Roger Holmes wrote: To which the answers (so far) are (including someone else's very valid question of where they are): [snip] So we have 23 people interested, very few exhibitors and a large geographic spread but with clusters in Yorkshire(5), Manchester(3) and London(2 plus 2 nearby). ------------------------------ Please add me to the list. If it is held during the 5 or 6 months we spend in England every year, I will go to the show wherever it is held. Our house is in Colchester. Billy Pettit From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Aug 9 17:19:30 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 23:19:30 +0100 Subject: Bit of a clear out (UK) References: Message-ID: <000801c7dad3$5b4dabc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi Stu, been meaning to call for a while. > TI994A and expansion box (a rarity) Just noticed this....would be interested in the expansion box....got a TI99-4A already.... @-) TTFN - Pete. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 17:26:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:26:23 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <841149FE-AA5C-4A1F-8A78-23177A59A0F7@neurotica.com> On Aug 9, 2007, at 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Works for me. The larger Eproms like 27128, 27256 and larger >> I have loads of from old PCs that were junked. A ready supply >> of fast and large (often CMOS) eproms make it easier to do that. >> Though I had to mod my Prommer to do parts larger than 27256 >> the code upgrade was easy. > > ...but the OP had neither eraser nor programmer for the things--and > that was my point. Why bother using slow, obsolete parts when there > are better alternatives available? "Better" is debatable...the lack of standardization in the flash world is one thing that keeps me going back to EPROMs for my projects. Something doesn't become obsolete just because something newer is available. Faster access time than an EPROM isn't going to help the guy much unless he's working with a really fast processor. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 9 17:45:50 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:45:50 -0400 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: <46BB50B8.EA9325AF@west.net> Message-ID: <006401c7dad7$0a52c990$eb4df945@evan> >>> And that said, how many people will be attending this years VCF at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View? ... I plan on bringing as much as I can with me And as usual, much of what Marvin brings to sell will be bought and go home with me. :) Every year he has new surprises! Already made my flight reservation. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 18:44:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:44:16 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <841149FE-AA5C-4A1F-8A78-23177A59A0F7@neurotica.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com>, <841149FE-AA5C-4A1F-8A78-23177A59A0F7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2007 at 18:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > "Better" is debatable...the lack of standardization in the flash > world is one thing that keeps me going back to EPROMs for my > projects. Something doesn't become obsolete just because something > newer is available. When it's not being designed into new products, wouldn't it be fair to call it "obsolete"? But my main point is that UV EPROM requires some specialized tools to erase and program. If I were starting out from zero, I wouldn't waste my time. Of course, if the OP is fascinated by the little quartz window in a DIP or intends to program a lot of UV EPROM, acquiring the equipment might be worth the trouble. If you don't like flash, there are alternatives. FRAM, for example, is of a size that would adapt very nicely to a "vintage" project. I believe that 5v DIP-based parts are still available. That might also conveniently bypass the need for an emulator. Or just get an EEPROM programmer and forget about the eraser. Pinouts are reasonably close to UV EPROM in many instances, so if you wanted to go "authentic", there wouldn't be a problem. Please note that I've got a couple of programmers as well as an eraser--and a big pile of EPROMs. I use them. But I don't find it particularly convenient. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Aug 9 17:51:32 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 23:51:32 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? References: <200708091126.22555.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00d501c7dafd$6d0195f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > First time I saw these connectors was on the back of a radio my mother >bought in Germany in 1960. :-) This link will explain all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector > And then there's that "mini-" stuff that seems so prevalent these days. I hate those connectors with a passion, they're so small that they're almost impossible to solder up. And half the time you spend so long trying to solder to the pins that you end up melting the buggers....gah! :-( TTFN - Pete. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Aug 9 23:31:55 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:31:55 +0200 Subject: SORD References: Message-ID: <004701c7db07$62d3cc10$49428155@NOTEBOOK> Ah, a memory from the past. Back in the 80's I developped the embossing part of a national debet card system, "dankort". The data came on 9 track tapes, accompanied by a stack of blank cards and a stack of photos. The phots had barcodes attached to them, containing an ID found on the tape. I could then emboss the same barcode contents on the debet card, so we could keep a track on all data and produced output. The card is still in national use, but I dont think the 243's used are still alive Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Corti" To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: SORD >I have a SORD M243 Mark V system that came with PIPS, BASIC and SGL. This >Z80 system from 1982 seems to be interesting as it has a built-in color >monitor and graphics capabilities. But whenever I load SGL (Sord Graphics >Language) into memory I can't load anything other afterwards (like BASIC), >I get "memory exhausted". > The system has "only" 192 kB RAM and is expandable to up to over 700 kB. I > wouldn't mind building a memory expansion but I don't have the description > of the hardware, especially of the pseudo-S100 bus of this machine. Does > anyone have a hardware manual or the description of the I/O bus? > I'm also looking for other software like Fortran, MDOS distribution disks > or even CP/M (not sure if there was a CP/M for the M243). > > Christian > From grant at stockly.com Fri Aug 10 00:15:05 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:15:05 -0800 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070809140831.0385bd80@mail.30below.com> References: <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> At 10:18 AM 8/9/2007, you wrote: >Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >>Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>>There's also Megasquirt, where you can buy the hardware platform as a >>>kit, and download the circuit diagrams and firmware source code. >> >>Umm time to change the subject line ... Fuel injection has very little >>with a scratch built computer. >>PS. Looking at a PROM burner the lowest cost one I could find is $750. >>Where they that expensive (the programmers) back in the 70's when people >>used them? > > >$289 USD for the kit ($300 even shipped anywhere in the US): > >http://www.arlabs.com/syscost.htm > >It will do most stuff without adapters, but it *can* do 1702's if you buy >an adapter for it, which costs $59.00 I got pretty excited, but $59 is for read only. : ( The 1702 write module is $695... Grant From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 00:35:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:35:34 -0600 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> References: <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46BBF926.6080506@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: >> It will do most stuff without adapters, but it *can* do 1702's if you >> buy an adapter for it, which costs $59.00 > > I got pretty excited, but $59 is for read only. : ( The 1702 write > module is $695... Unicorn Electronics has 1702's still* listed for $4.99. > Grant * Most likly about 1/2 dozen left in stock. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 10 01:29:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 02:29:36 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com>, <841149FE-AA5C-4A1F-8A78-23177A59A0F7@neurotica.com> <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> On Aug 9, 2007, at 7:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> "Better" is debatable...the lack of standardization in the flash >> world is one thing that keeps me going back to EPROMs for my >> projects. Something doesn't become obsolete just because something >> newer is available. > > When it's not being designed into new products, wouldn't it be fair > to call it "obsolete"? Well I guess I define "obsolete" as "useless". That seems to jibe with the industry definition as well. > But my main point is that UV EPROM requires > some specialized tools to erase and program. If I were starting out > from zero, I wouldn't waste my time. I dunno, man. Flash is often a pain to deal with, mainly due to the lack of standardization that I mentioned earlier. But to each his own. > If you don't like flash, there are alternatives. FRAM, for example, > is of a size that would adapt very nicely to a "vintage" project. I > believe that 5v DIP-based parts are still available. That might also > conveniently bypass the need for an emulator. I've played with I2C FRAMs, but not byte-wide parts. Are they easy to program? > Or just get an EEPROM programmer and forget about the eraser. > Pinouts are reasonably close to UV EPROM in many instances, so if you > wanted to go "authentic", there wouldn't be a problem. That's true...but then you're squarely in "specialized tools" territory again. > Please note that I've got a couple of programmers as well as an > eraser--and a big pile of EPROMs. I use them. But I don't find it > particularly convenient. Fair enough. :-) I've been dealing with them for a long time (as you have) and it's just second nature to me; I don't really notice the inconvenience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From marvin at west.net Fri Aug 10 01:29:04 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:29:04 -0700 Subject: Mountain View - was UK VCF or equivalent Message-ID: <46BC05B0.52790AF6@west.net> > Marvin Johnston writes: > Since I have a great deal of stuff to sell, I plan on bringing as much as I > can with me :). It will be *wonderful* when I get the workbenches cleared off > -------------------- > > I thought you were making progress with the TRW and Livermore swap meets. > That's a couple of loads a month! Not enough progress!!! Most of the stuff I brought down last month was being sold for other people. I'm getting ready to list a bunch of (appropriate) stuff on VCM as well. The Zaca fire was close enough (about 10 - 15 miles) that I wasn't comfortable going to Livermore last week. This weekend, I'm putting on an ARDF practice here so I won't be going to DeAnza. > Won't have much to sell. What is the VCF policy anyway? Can you do some > dealing during the show? Or is it strictly show with the dealing outside or > offline some where? If you can sell, what is the cost for a booth or table? > > Billy The costs and policies will be posted on the VCF site once Sellam starts publicizing VCF. AFAIK, it is no problem to make deals on or off the show floor :). I'm also trying to get Dana Trout (Pickles & Trout) to come up. If he will do that, it is possible that Sellam would put him on the list of speakers; he has some fascinating stories to tell! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 10 01:34:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 02:34:53 -0400 Subject: Data IO 29B info? In-Reply-To: <46BB5717.70404@philpem.me.uk> References: <51ea77730708081541t1fbd55ffp9f93fb47fa8470b0@mail.gmail.com> <087201c7da46$108f6f70$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46BAB3B0.5050703@philpem.me.uk> <02D563AA-6AB3-4AA4-9376-8A8D159E9AC0@neurotica.com> <46BB5717.70404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:04 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:26 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> I could throw them on my website somewhere if anyone wants them... >> Yes please! > > So it was written, and so it shall be done: > > Thanks! > It's living there for the time being, but I've got archived copies > of a few other dead websites that might be of interest to the > community at large. Including, for instance, some neat stuff for > the HP 1650 series logic analysers. Perhaps I should set up a 'Hall > of Lost Files' on my site and dump my /Z_DRIVE/datasheets and / > Z_DRIVE/test-equipment directories online. The bit problem is going > to be indexing that great big lump of binary gibberish - the > Datasheets directory alone is about half a gig in a good hundred or > so files... I think it'd be a good idea to put that stuff online somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 01:59:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:59:53 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com>, <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 2:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well I guess I define "obsolete" as "useless". That seems to jibe > with the industry definition as well. So, 1701 EPROMs aren't obsolete? ;-) I assume that some can be found that are still operable. > I've played with I2C FRAMs, but not byte-wide parts. Are they > easy to program? Almost exactly like SRAM. You write individual bytes, not the whole device during a write cycle. Timing for write is about the same as that for read. The 5V FM1808 (32Kx8) is a 70 nsec part. While not blazingly fast by modern standards, it's good enough for most "vintage" designs. Ramtron gives the number of read/write cycles as being in excess of a trillion. Depending on your decoding logic for WE\, you could use the same part for RAM and ROM. I've got a couple here and I like them very much. 28-pin DIP package. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 02:31:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:31:31 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com>, <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BC1453.7060701@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Almost exactly like SRAM. You write individual bytes, not the whole > device during a write cycle. Timing for write is about the same as > that for read. The 5V FM1808 (32Kx8) is a 70 nsec part. While not > blazingly fast by modern standards, it's good enough for most > "vintage" designs. Ramtron gives the number of read/write cycles as > being in excess of a trillion. Depending on your decoding logic for > WE\, you could use the same part for RAM and ROM. I've got a couple > here and I like them very much. 28-pin DIP package. I still would like to see the 3.3 Volt part used as a *CORE* memory replacement since I think it has unlimited R/W cycles. > Cheers, > Chuck I don't dare think about the logic design since I have no idea of just how to correctly sequence the power and logic levels reliability. Ben alias Woodelf PS. A hefty octal relay and a 115NO45 switches my valve amp nicely but I don't think this design would work for 3.3Volt switching. From grant at stockly.com Fri Aug 10 03:32:11 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 00:32:11 -0800 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <46BBF926.6080506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070810003045.059947b0@pop.1and1.com> At 09:35 PM 8/9/2007, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: > >>>It will do most stuff without adapters, but it *can* do 1702's if you >>>buy an adapter for it, which costs $59.00 >>I got pretty excited, but $59 is for read only. : ( The 1702 write >>module is $695... > >Unicorn Electronics has 1702's still* listed for $4.99. > >>Grant >* Most likly about 1/2 dozen left in stock. I bought 100 from them a month ago... They restock that part. They can get any part you want. : ) But if it isn't stocked then there is a 50-100 minimum order. Grant From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 03:40:37 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:40:37 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <03D74F10-0900-4146-8164-CD9AB7AA3256@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> <03D74F10-0900-4146-8164-CD9AB7AA3256@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: G'Day, On 09/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: [List of people in the UK.] + Me - Cheltenham. Able to drive pretty much all round the country. I don't really have anything of my own exhibit worthy at the moment. :( However, I drive an estate and am happy to collect people and equipment on the way if they are not too far out of my way. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Aug 10 04:05:36 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:05:36 +0100 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 20, Message 16 References: <200708091713.l79HCcTm005207@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <008f01c7db2d$9e56ac00$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 07:45:42 -0700 > From: "Rick Bensene" > Subject: RE: Looking for manual for IME 86s desktop calculator > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" I've just had a calculator that looks very similar to the IME 86 shipped over from Europe. It was made by Tesla Bratislava located in Bratislava, Slovakia, formely in Czechoslovakia. Apparently they copied other designs for their products, from the layout it is obviousley 3 register based and has core memory storage. I am in the process of reconditioning the unit to get it working, keyboard was completley seized (fixed that), transcribing the layout back to a circuit, cleaning it up, power supply is missing though. If anybody knows of any info of this or the IMS machine or similar machines please let me know. Can post photos of the unit. Many thanks. Mike Hatch Web - www.brickfieldspark.org E-mail - mike at brickfieldspark.org Urban Wildlife ring - www.brickfieldspark.org/uwringhome.htm >> My dad's had an IME 86s calculator in his office for years, >> He's interested in finding a copy of the manual for it -- > A wonderful machine, with a great design. The Italians managed to > package a lot of machine into a relatively small footprint for the time. > Very nice mechanical design and electronic elegance. > > There's a lot of history relating to the IME calculators, particularly > the IME 84 (IME's first electronic calculator) and future calculator > industry developments. > > I haven't come across a manual for one of these machines yet, and have > been looking for a long time. > > I know well how these machines operate. If you have any questions on > how to operate it, drop me an off-list Email. > > > Rick Bensene > r-i-c-k-b-at-b-e-n-s-e-n-e.c-o-m (delete dashes, and replace "at" with > the obvious character) > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From cc at corti-net.de Fri Aug 10 04:10:08 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:10:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <46BADD74.27340.DDCF46A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <1186534309.455.29.camel@elric> <46BADD74.27340.DDCF46A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2007 at 1:51, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Perhaps there's not *that* much difference between 96tpi and 100tpi? >> Possibly within the margin of error of the mechanism? > Almost certainly not. 100 tpi and 96 tpi drives locate cylinder 0 in > a different place--and over 77 cylinders, the difference is > substantial. My guess is that the faceplates came prelabeled and the But the track-to-track distance is practically the same, at least I could perfectly read all my SORD M23 disks in a standard DSHD drive (with tracks 0-2 obviously missing at the beginning). The M23 disks are 100tpi SS MFM, the drives used are TEAC FD-50C. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 10 04:13:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:13:26 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> <03D74F10-0900-4146-8164-CD9AB7AA3256@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46BC2C36.5030908@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: > G'Day, > > On 09/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: > > [List of people in the UK.] > > + Me - Cheltenham. + Me around Cambridge in the short term... I can think of quite a few others who either haven't replied or who are collectors but not subscribed to this list. > I don't really have anything of my own exhibit worthy at the moment. :( I'm not sure if it would be against the spirit of the event to have some stuff from Bletchley there (if the event is elsewhere!) - it makes it a little less "hobbyist". I suspect it would be possible to hire a van for the duration and take some big iron* on the road... * Although most of our big stuff is just too delicate to go shipping around and hope for it to remain functional. Moving non-operational items is a lot easier, though :-) J. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 10 10:24:16 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:24:16 -0700 Subject: FRAM as core In-Reply-To: <46BC1453.7060701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com>, <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com> <46BC1453.7060701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46BC8320.1070009@sbcglobal.net> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Almost exactly like SRAM. You write individual bytes, not the whole >> device during a write cycle. Timing for write is about the same as >> that for read. The 5V FM1808 (32Kx8) is a 70 nsec part. While not >> blazingly fast by modern standards, it's good enough for most >> "vintage" designs. Ramtron gives the number of read/write cycles as >> being in excess of a trillion. Depending on your decoding logic for >> WE\, you could use the same part for RAM and ROM. I've got a couple >> here and I like them very much. 28-pin DIP package. > > I still would like to see the 3.3 Volt part used as a *CORE* memory > replacement since I think it has unlimited R/W cycles. I used a Ramtron FM20L08 128Kx8 3.3 volt part and some 74LVC buffers to build an S-100 memory card. Works great, just like core. No special logic of software needed. It's great to be able to turn on the machine and have it run without booting from an external device. The 3.3v parts are rated for unlimited cycles. Bob From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 10 11:19:54 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burners - was newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200708101621.MAA18990@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For years, I bought [EPROM] burners when I saw them but never used > them. [...] I'd love to get hold of one, provided the interface to the host is sufficiently documented for me to write the host-side software. I've been giving serious thought to building a PROM burner out of discrete logic, but so far haven't collected the round tuits.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 10 11:32:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:32:33 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com>, <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <833C6D4D-0DE7-4DBD-9A07-DD73B950797E@neurotica.com> On Aug 10, 2007, at 2:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well I guess I define "obsolete" as "useless". That seems to jibe >> with the industry definition as well. > > So, 1701 EPROMs aren't obsolete? ;-) I assume that some can be found > that are still operable. Pick, pick, pick! ;) I will try to be more clear about what I mean. "Obsolete" means, to me, "no longer of any practical use". >> I've played with I2C FRAMs, but not byte-wide parts. Are they >> easy to program? > > Almost exactly like SRAM. You write individual bytes, not the whole > device during a write cycle. Timing for write is about the same as > that for read. The 5V FM1808 (32Kx8) is a 70 nsec part. While not > blazingly fast by modern standards, it's good enough for most > "vintage" designs. Ramtron gives the number of read/write cycles as > being in excess of a trillion. Depending on your decoding logic for > WE\, you could use the same part for RAM and ROM. I've got a couple > here and I like them very much. 28-pin DIP package. I'd love to get ahold of a few of those. I'll see if I can tack a few into my next parts order. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 11:56:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:56:36 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BADD74.27340.DDCF46A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46BC3654.5752.13201E53@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 11:10, Christian Corti wrote: > But the track-to-track distance is practically the same, at least I could > perfectly read all my SORD M23 disks in a standard DSHD drive (with tracks > 0-2 obviously missing at the beginning). The M23 disks are 100tpi SS MFM, > the drives used are TEAC FD-50C. Well, let's do the math. At 100 tpi, a track occupies a zone inside of a band .0100 inch wide. At 96 tpi, a track occupies a band .0104 inch wide. While this may not seem to be a lot, consider that 77 tracks at 100 tpi will occupy a band 0.7700 inches wide, while at 96 tpi, the same number of tracks occupy a band .8021 inches wide. That means that the 77th track will be 0.0321 inches off--more than 3 tracks' worth at 100 tpi. So, while you may have been able to read much of the first part of your disks, I suspect that the inner tracks did not read at all. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 11:57:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:57:38 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <833C6D4D-0DE7-4DBD-9A07-DD73B950797E@neurotica.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com>, <833C6D4D-0DE7-4DBD-9A07-DD73B950797E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46BC3692.19118.13210D39@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 12:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd love to get ahold of a few of those. I'll see if I can tack a > few into my next parts order. Ramtron is still hungry enough to offer samples. Check their web site. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 12:06:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:06:49 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <833C6D4D-0DE7-4DBD-9A07-DD73B950797E@neurotica.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com>, <833C6D4D-0DE7-4DBD-9A07-DD73B950797E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46BC38B9.17747.1329788C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 12:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > Pick, pick, pick! ;) I will try to be more clear about what I > mean. "Obsolete" means, to me, "no longer of any practical use". I've two wonderful words for this kind of stuff. "Obsolescent" and, better yet, "quaint". As in "This laptop comes with an internal floppy drive, a quaint nod to yesteryear." Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 12:30:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:30:28 -0600 Subject: Burners - was newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200708101621.MAA18990@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <200708101621.MAA18990@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46BCA0B4.5080102@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > I'd love to get hold of one, provided the interface to the host is > sufficiently documented for me to write the host-side software. I've > been giving serious thought to building a PROM burner out of discrete > logic, but so far haven't collected the round tuits.... I have no tuit's here, but I can email you a MB7124 pdf data sheet. Well here is a good place to start your collection. http://www.quantumenterprises.co.uk/roundtuit/index.htm > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse I may build one later this fall if I can figure how to switch the voltages From GND to +20 volts ??? From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 10 12:56:48 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:56:48 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: <46BB4AE4.7070607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> <46BB2590.70505@e-bbes.com> <46BB4AE4.7070607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46BCA6E0.8070204@e-bbes.com> woodelf wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: >> James Fogg wrote: >>> It's complete, was running, needs RL02 disk packs. Comes with two >>> VT100's and an LA36 Decwriter II. It is configured exactly as in this >>> picture (I don't think it's a plus though). >> >> The price depends "heavily" on the location where it is ;-) > > La la la ... DRAT no computer. > They don't go for a song anymore. I expect price you will get depends > on your shipping options. I epect having no clue at prices that would > start off with out shipping at about $1K. Didn't notice that the prices for pdp11 went up that high again ... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Aug 10 12:58:28 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:58:28 -0300 Subject: Burners - was newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <200708101621.MAA18990@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <031d01c7db78$239b3080$f0fea8c0@alpha> My oppinion on burners: Willem or Elnec. Willem is the classic home-made programmer by www.willem.org - has great acceptance, works right and has a (not so much) update(d) software for DOS and Windows. Since I don't see windows as an enemy, it works fine for me. Only programs EPROMS/flash/etc but for the classic computer user seems to be kind of enough. Elnec makes the best programmers and has the best support in the world. Period. I have a Beeprog (48 pin full-everything-pin-driver-whatever-it-means) and it can read/program anything I could ever imagine. It even tests TTL/CMOS/**some linear and VLSI*** chips. It can test even a 8255!!! This is not cheap (In Brazil I paid around R$ 2500 -> Us$ 1200, but this is almost 3 times the price of USA) but is the last programmer you'll buy in some 15 to 30 years. Greetings from Brazil Alexandre From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 10 13:06:43 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FRAM as core In-Reply-To: <46BC8320.1070009@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <185859.52905.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Also check out Freescale's MRAM parts. They have some 16 bit fast (35 ns) ones. Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 13:21:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:21:58 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: <46BCA6E0.8070204@e-bbes.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> <46BB2590.70505@e-bbes.com> <46BB4AE4.7070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <46BCA6E0.8070204@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46BCACC6.5040900@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: >> La la la ... DRAT no computer. >> They don't go for a song anymore. I expect price you will get depends >> on your shipping options. I epect having no clue at prices that would >> start off with out shipping at about $1K. > > Didn't notice that the prices for pdp11 went up that high again ... Like I said I have no idea of prices but *running* does make a big difference in your selling price. I have about $350 US in mad money this month to a happy PDP 11 seller. Ben alias woodelf. PS. I don't use ebay. From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Aug 10 13:38:52 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Photo, 1-18-77 Message-ID: <57914.207.245.121.210.1186771132.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> Doing a little research.. What date was the Winter Consumer Electronics Show in 1977? Are there any published photos from this event? I have a photo of the prototype Commodore PET 2001 from the Jan 18-20 1977 Gametronics convention proceedings. http://vintagecomputer.net/commodore/gametronics-77/Gametronics_1977_PET-2001.jpg ...Is that Chuck Peddle in the photo? ...Is this the oldest known photo of a PET? More photos: http://vintagecomputer.net/commodore/gametronics-77/ I am trying to determine whether Gametronics came before or after the Winter CES in Jan 1977. The web does not seem to have the answer, maybe someone on this list was actually there... Bill D From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 10 12:45:57 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:45:57 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:13:26 BST." <46BC2C36.5030908@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200708101745.SAA03996@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Simon Fryer wrote: > > G'Day, > > > > On 09/08/07, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > > [List of people in the UK.] > > > > + Me - Cheltenham. > > + Me around Cambridge in the short term... > > I can think of quite a few others who either haven't replied or who are > collectors but not subscribed to this list. I'm on Merseyside, but poor health makes it difficult to spend a whole day (or more...) away doing stuff :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 13:53:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:53:19 -0700 Subject: FRAM as core In-Reply-To: <185859.52905.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46BC8320.1070009@sbcglobal.net>, <185859.52905.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BC51AF.12216.138AF5EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 11:06, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Also check out Freescale's MRAM parts. They have some 16 bit fast (35 ns) ones. I recall reading about FS's MRAM technology; I hadn't realized that they were producing them yet. One aspect of MRAM that I might find a bit worrisome is that it does seem to have a certain sensitivity to external magnetic fields. I have no idea if this is a real issue. On the Ramtron parts, I forgot to mention that some families have a software write-protect feature. So using one as ROM+RAM is very attractive. A very clever idea is Ramtron's integration of FRAM with an 8051 core. I can see all sorts of possibilities with embedded applications being able to pick right up after a power interruption. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 14:00:20 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:00:20 -0400 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: <46BCACC6.5040900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> <46BB2590.70505@e-bbes.com> <46BB4AE4.7070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <46BCA6E0.8070204@e-bbes.com> <46BCACC6.5040900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Like I said I have no idea of prices but *running* does make a big difference > in your selling price. Doubling it, at least, in my book. Same is true for old radios, old cars, old this, old that... -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 14:04:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:04:39 -0600 Subject: FRAM as core In-Reply-To: <46BC51AF.12216.138AF5EB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BC8320.1070009@sbcglobal.net>, <185859.52905.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46BC51AF.12216.138AF5EB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BCB6C7.1080005@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > A very clever idea is Ramtron's integration of FRAM with an 8051 > core. I can see all sorts of possibilities with embedded > applications being able to pick right up after a power interruption. I think that is more of the case of having a POWER FAIL interupt than the hardware memory. > Cheers, > Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 14:34:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 100 v 96 (was: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <1186534309.455.29.camel@elric> <46BADD74.27340.DDCF46A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007, Christian Corti wrote: > But the track-to-track distance is practically the same, By the time that you go 77 or 80 tracks, you are at least three tracks away from where you want to be! That is NOT practically the same for this use. > at least I could > perfectly read all my SORD M23 disks in a standard DSHD drive (with tracks > 0-2 obviously missing at the beginning). The M23 disks are 100tpi SS MFM, > the drives used are TEAC FD-50C. All of the Sord disks that I've seen have been 96tpi. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 10 14:56:49 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burners - was newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BCA0B4.5080102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <200708101621.MAA18990@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46BCA0B4.5080102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200708101956.PAA20089@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I may build [a PROM burner] later this fall if I can figure how to > switch the voltages From GND to +20 volts ??? When I've contemplated building one myself, I've always figured on using discrete transistors for that part of it. I've got a pile of small-signal/switching transistors (memory says 2N3904 and 2N3906, but they are at home and I'm not) that I would expect to work. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 15:32:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:32:52 -0700 Subject: 100 v 96 (was: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46BC6904.12248.13E61A4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 12:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > By the time that you go 77 or 80 tracks, you are at least three tracks > away from where you want to be! That is NOT practically the same for this > use. I've wondered on and off for awhile (20 years or so) if a Drivetec drive could be reprogrammed to handle 100 tpi disks. Never got the motivation to look into it. Sigh. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 15:48:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 100 v 96 (was: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <46BC6904.12248.13E61A4C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> <46BC6904.12248.13E61A4C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070810134651.W62021@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've wondered on and off for awhile (20 years or so) if a Drivetec > drive could be reprogrammed to handle 100 tpi disks. Never got the > motivation to look into it. Sigh. A representative of Amlyn claimed that their drive could do both ("closed loop analog servo") I never got around to trying, and no longer have those drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 16:42:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:42:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? In-Reply-To: <00d501c7dafd$6d0195f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Aug 9, 7 11:51:32 pm Message-ID: > > And then there's that "mini-" stuff that seems so prevalent these days. > > I hate those connectors with a passion, they're so small that they're almost So do I. One of the worst jobs I ever had to do was 'edit' the wiring on a 9 pin Mini-DIN. I don't know why they're so widely used [1]. The don't (IMHO) make reliable contact, the solder-type plugs are often too large to fit into a socket that was intended for a moulded one, they have nothing to recomend them. [1] Equally I don't see this love of making everything so darn small in the first place. A _little_ larger (say using full-size BINs rather than mini-DINs) would make no difference in almost all cases. > impossible to solder up. And half the time you spend so long trying to > solder to the pins that you end up melting the buggers....gah! :-( Where I can, I buy the plug-to-open-end cables (or plug-to-plug and cut them in half) from companies like RS components. Expensive, but it saves a lot of four-letter words... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 17:25:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:25:36 -0700 Subject: Need a copy of Memorite for a Vector 4 Message-ID: <46BC8370.19437.144D5014@cclist.sydex.com> Anyone got one? The executable file is fine, or even a diskette image containing it. I'm not sure which version of Memowrite the Vector 4 used, so I'm sorry I can't be more specific. Thanks, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Aug 10 17:38:31 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:38:31 -0700 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> woodelf wrote: Unicorn Electronics has 1702's still* listed for $4.99. --------------- My only order ever to Unicorn was for some TTL parts back on 22nd of June. I tweaked them a month later and got a reply that parts were back ordered, would ship in a week or so. Last I heard from them. What is your experience with Unicorn? Did they actually ship parts to you? Their prices are good, but I would pay a little more to get parts I need. Or at least an "out of stock" notice after 7 weeks of waiting. Billy From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 10 18:03:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:03:51 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BC3692.19118.13210D39@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BBAA79.26828.10FDCCBC@cclist.sydex.com>, <833C6D4D-0DE7-4DBD-9A07-DD73B950797E@neurotica.com> <46BC3692.19118.13210D39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0195FE39-A697-42CC-9DE1-9926F8CC9934@neurotica.com> On Aug 10, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'd love to get ahold of a few of those. I'll see if I can tack a >> few into my next parts order. > > Ramtron is still hungry enough to offer samples. Check their web > site. An excellent idea, I will do exactly that. *click* *click click* It seems they want to have a salesdroid contact me to send me samples...I suppose I can stomach that, as long as he doesn't have an overactive sales gland. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mikelee at tdh.com Fri Aug 10 18:03:14 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:03:14 -0500 Subject: Vintage Cisco Router code Message-ID: <46BCEEB2.1050300@tdh.com> I've got myself a Cisco AGS+ router (1986-1995) and I'm looking for OLD code versions for it. I got it running Cisco GS/IOS 9.x, but want to see some early revisions. I believe this particular model can go up to IOS11.x, but that isn't my goal. I'd like to have examples of "what was." Anyone have suggestions on how I could obtain very obsolete code revisions for Cisco Routers/IOS most likely only historically significant and not of much technical or monetary value today? Also, looking for any more info/leads on vintage infrastructure equipment, and historically significant early models. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 18:38:22 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fun with TK50's Message-ID: <409088.72369.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, in my adventures with this MicroVax II and it's associated TK50, I have learned a few things about these critters: TK50 Facts: A TK50 drive has phillips head screw-heads on both reels (underneath, through hole in board for supply/cartridge reel, and in the center of the take up reel on the top). This allows you to manually rewind a tape that's jammed in the drive. When you rewind a tape that's been stuck in the drive for who-knows-how-many years, it won't necessarily load the next time. Some portions of the tape were wrapped unevenly and dragging inside the cartridge (you can feel it, pusing in on the reel from beneath the cartridge). It's possible to manually wind the entire tape out of the cartridge in order to fix this, using only a phillips head screwdriver. And provided you cleaned the drive, it'll even rewind when power it back up. Said cartridge won't actually hold data again, however. (Can anyone say shoeshine?) Tape cartridge design hasn't changed much. DLT III tapes look almost identical, and would fit if it wasn't for a plastic tab on the left of the tape. Tape cartridges are so identical, in fact, that you can disassemble your dud TK50, and move the bottom part of the shell over to a DLT III cartridge, allowing you to insert it into a TK50 drive. As clever as this seems, it doesn't work at all. Not that I really expected it to, TK50's are 350 orsted, DLT III's are like 1540 orsted. The media is very, very different. I just wanted to see what would happen. In case you're curious, such a tape will thead up, load, then give an error. The tape won't properly rewind and unload either, you have to do it manually. You't think that the designers would have thought of this, and implemented some system of preventing you from inserting a DLT III tape into a TK50 drive. Like a plastic tab or something. Oh, wait... A TK50 cartridge makes a rather thick, but serviceable, coaster. Just in case anyone else wanted to know :) -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 18:44:40 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:44:40 -0400 Subject: Vintage Cisco Router code In-Reply-To: <46BCEEB2.1050300@tdh.com> References: <46BCEEB2.1050300@tdh.com> Message-ID: > I've got myself a Cisco AGS+ router (1986-1995) and I'm looking for OLD > code versions for it. I got it running Cisco GS/IOS 9.x, but want to > see some early revisions. I believe this particular model can go up to > IOS11.x, but that isn't my goal. I'd like to have examples of "what was." The oldest I have are EPROMS with 8.2. They are also IGS, but I think they can work with the AGS. It has been so long I just do not remember - the GSs were going out of service when I was getting involved. I know people that were involved - maybe I can ask. I ought to just send all the chips (I have quite a few) to Al, if he is interested. Al? > Anyone have suggestions on how I could obtain very obsolete code > revisions for Cisco Routers/IOS most likely only historically > significant and not of much technical or monetary value today? Bug people that have been in the networking business for junk in the drawers in the back of their desks. That is what I do. Historical significant? Nawww..., it just a GS series router. They did not change the world or anything... Note: GS routers are not all that common, especially the AGS, because Cisco tended to use them as trade-ins for 7000s and 7500s, to keep them out of the used market. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 19:08:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 17:08:29 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <0195FE39-A697-42CC-9DE1-9926F8CC9934@neurotica.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BC3692.19118.13210D39@cclist.sydex.com>, <0195FE39-A697-42CC-9DE1-9926F8CC9934@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46BC9B8D.8505.14AB7F64@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2007 at 19:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > It seems they want to have a salesdroid contact me to send me > samples...I suppose I can stomach that, as long as he doesn't have an > overactive sales gland. Ah, how times have changed. Remember when sales droids would take you out to lunch and get you thoroughly lubricated? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 19:47:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 17:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How accurate does a drive stepper need to be? (was: 100 v 96 (was: In-Reply-To: <20070810134651.W62021@shell.lmi.net> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> <46BC6904.12248.13E61A4C@cclist.sydex.com> <20070810134651.W62021@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070810173934.Y74514@shell.lmi.net> Some imprecise numbers that might help to get a feel for it: 48 tpi is about 2 tracks per mm, or 1/2 mm per track. Each track is about 1/3 mm wide down the center of that 1/2mm space that is allocated to it. 96tpi is about 4 tracks per mm, or 1/4 mm per track. Each track is about 1/6 mm wide, down the center of that 1/4 mm space that is allocated to it. There is absolutely no chance for a successful read if the positioner is more than 1/2 track off. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 10 22:38:08 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46BC9B8D.8505.14AB7F64@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 10, 7 05:08:29 pm" Message-ID: <200708110338.l7B3c8Ig018062@floodgap.com> > > It seems they want to have a salesdroid contact me to send me > > samples...I suppose I can stomach that, as long as he doesn't have an > > overactive sales gland. > > Ah, how times have changed. Remember when sales droids would take > you out to lunch and get you thoroughly lubricated? They still try to do that to those of us with MDs. However, the drug junkets are invariably boring and I never go to any. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 10 22:39:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 04:39:43 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: Message-ID: <007e01c7dbc9$41c30dc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....and it won't work in anything newer than an XT. :-( > > Why is that a disdvantage _on this list_? Surely original >IBM PC/XT machines are not hard to find (are they?) and >they're certainly repairable... I've got a couple buried somewhere here (an XT and at least one XT-286). The "disadvantage" to me is that I simply don't want to keep an old DOS machine like that going purely to burn the odd EPROM/PAL. Plus, I want to be able to burn EPROMs directly from this machine, the one I do my development work (such that it is at the moment) on, not mess about transferring the files to another machine....hency the reason I really should overhaul my "S3". But I do take your point. :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 10 23:00:25 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 05:00:25 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com>, <841149FE-AA5C-4A1F-8A78-23177A59A0F7@neurotica.com><46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008f01c7dbcc$25c0eb80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Please note that I've got a couple of programmers as >>well as an eraser--and a big pile of EPROMs. I use them. >>But I don't find it particularly convenient. > > Fair enough. :-) I've been dealing with them for a long time >(as you have) and it's just second nature to me; I don't really >notice the inconvenience. It's what you're used to. I spent some 6 years using EPROMs for development and never considered it an inconvenience (tine consuming, but necessary). Then I used an EPROM emulator.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Aug 10 23:31:49 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 05:31:49 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: Message-ID: <009401c7dbd0$891ae470$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Good point, and the exact reason I picked up a "Softy S3" >>about 10 years back (which is in SERIOUS need of TLC >>unfortunately). > > I rememebr seeing the adverts for that -- and drooling :-). It is a *SERIOUSLY* useful device....it'll even emulate RAM, which is surprisingly useful when debugging code. :-) >....Alas I was an undergraduate at the time, and no way could >I afford one, so I built my own programmer/emulator.... I first came across the S3 in '89, it was standard equipment at the company I was working for at the time. It's one of the few times that I have been genuinely blown away by a piece of technology. A sort of "Eureka" moment. Even then I couldn't afford (well, justify) the cost of getting one to use at home. In the end I picked this one up in '97, from the small ads of the local paper, for ?35! It had been dropped, so the case is pretty badly damaged, but other than needing an new Ni-Cad battery pack it's fully functional. Or at least it was, I seriously need to overhaul it. The irony is, I'm pretty sure this unit is one of the very ones I used between '89 and '91. The guy I got it from bought it at a "clearout" sale at Aston Science Park in '91....which was when the aforementioned company I'd been working for, on said science park, closed down.... :-) >....3 large boards of TTL chips (I couldn't use a processor, >what could I have programmed the firmware with :-)). LOL, good point. I actually built my first EPROM burner from scratch too (though I never built an EPROM emulator). I had little choice, as an Atari user my options for off the shelf programmers were very limited - most connected via RS232, no use to me as I didn't have the 850 serial/printer interface module. And the only other one I remember would only work in an Atari 800 as it plugged into the right hand cartridge port (I, of course, had a 400). So I threw together a very simple design which connected to the machine via it's joystick ports. The joystick ports were connected to a 6520 PIA inside the machine which gave me two 8 bit I/O ports to play with. Used one port to pass the data to be burned, and used the other to provide assorted control signals - like the programming pulse, clocking/resetting a pair of 4040 counters which provided the address to the EPROM (I said it was simple), etc. Worked surprisingly reliably. > I do have the original Softy somwhere. SC/MP based, TV output, >programs 2708s. I can't rememebr if it emulatrs as well. I've never actually seen one of those for real, just pictures. Is it just me, or did they use a very similar case to that of the ZX-80? Certainly, the bottom part of the case looks identical in the pictures I've seen. TTFN - Pete. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 23:32:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: non-subscribers, slackers, and scoundrels in general was Re: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46BC2C36.5030908@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <208712.26563.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > I can think of quite a few others who either haven't > replied or who are > collectors but not subscribed to this list. Senseless point to contemplate, but I have to wonder why some bona fide collectors choose not to participate (or at least monitor from time to time) a vintage-based mailing list. Not everyone's cup of earl gray I guess ;) But frankly it does piss me off to think that there are ahem resources out there that are going untapped. Loads of people even on this list are sitting on stacks of old floppies, and don't even take the time to ensure the data therein won't be consigned to oblivion. I mean how much effort does it take to set up some 486 or early P- w/a 5 1/4" floppy drive, and get on with it? If anyone needs help with this CONTACT ME. Umm what is the hardware w/o the software you geeks you. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 23:35:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK VCF or equivalent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52351.69316.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> edited for brevity --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > > See, this is one part of the reasons why I don't > actively follow the list: > > Patrick Finnegan said: > > It'd be nice if Sellam could at least figure out > how to say this in a > > non-"I'm going to ruin your life for doing > something that's not nice" > > sort of way. > > And this is from a friend even!! :/ I'm sure many listers, including friends, feel there's a way of you expressing your viewpoints in a less vitreolic manner. > I'm offering a > rather democratic way to > resolve the issue: go to the fake "VCF" or the real > VCF, and see which one > you prefer. I'm willing to bet that most people > would choose the real > VCF, and the fake "VCF" would suffer. The question > is, does anyone really > want to take the gamble? It would be easier to just > come up with your own > damn name. Agreed. You're entitled to the preservation of your copyright (good luck when the infringement takes place on a different shore), but (and maybe I stand to be corrected) the original posts probably meant it in a generic sense. What is so original to the VCF that couldn't be emulated if need be or even improved upon? Because of a pubescent bunch of horse excrement, I haven't attended the one in NJ, so I can't (and won't) speak from any first hand experience. I've seen pictures of older ones, and if my opinion means anything, they seemed a bit, eh, antiseptic, but perhaps that's owed to some attendees particular presentations. Keep in mind, since you evoke notions of democracy and capitalism, competition is a necessary and desireable component. Who's Abdullah? But let's get off this topic already. Mikey B is bored w/it, and heavens we can't have that. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 23:41:00 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:41:00 -0700 Subject: Vintage Cisco Router code Message-ID: <46BD3DDC.5010305@bitsavers.org> >> I've got myself a Cisco AGS+ router (1986-1995) and I'm looking for OLD >> code versions for it. I got it running Cisco GS/IOS 9.x, but want to >> see some early revisions. I believe this particular model can go up to >> IOS11.x, but that isn't my goal. I'd like to have examples of "what was." > >The oldest I have are EPROMS with 8.2. They are also IGS, but I think >they can work with the AGS. It has been so long I just do not remember >- the GSs were going out of service when I was getting involved. I >know people that were involved - maybe I can ask. > >I ought to just send all the chips (I have quite a few) to Al, if he >is interested. Al? we're interested. another curator here at CHM supported AGS From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 10 23:40:55 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:40:55 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46BB9C41.3040107@brutman.com> References: <595598.46061.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <46BB9C41.3040107@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200708110040.55179.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 09 August 2007 18:59, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > After a few weeks of this it is growing tiring - the amount of traffic > just for a UK VCF seems to warrant it's own mailing list! > > > Mike Indeed. I have been seriously tempted lately to go and start a yahoo group or something and then hand it off to whoever wanted it, just to get that subject line the heck out of here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 23:46:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:46:09 -0700 Subject: non-subscribers, slackers, and scoundrels in general was Re: UK VCF? Message-ID: <46BD3F11.30909@bitsavers.org> > Loads of people even on this list are sitting on > stacks of old floppies, and don't even take the time > to ensure the data therein won't be consigned to > oblivion. Lurkers far outnumber active participants on mailing lists. The CHM Software Preservation Group mailing list has over 100 subscribers. I doubt if there have been posts from more than a dozen people there. I think there are four people who have created content for the group web site http://www.softwarepreservation.org/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Aug 10 23:48:48 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:48:48 -0400 Subject: IBM PC Portable Message-ID: Got the following email today (not my area of interest). I could possibly pick up and store for a VERY SHORT time. ======================================================================== Would you - or anyone else you can recommend - be interested in an IBM PC Portable I wish to donate? If someone will pay the shipping costs, I'd gladly donate it. It's from 1984. I used it when I was in college and as far as I know it still works. Thanks! Justine Nichols Silver Spring, MD fergiestorm at comcast.net ======================================================================== No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.11/944 - Release Date: 8/9/2007 2:44 PM From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 11 00:27:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:27:14 -0600 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46BD48B2.3020706@jetnet.ab.ca> Billy Pettit wrote: > My only order ever to Unicorn was for some TTL parts back on 22nd of June. > I tweaked them a month later and got a reply that parts were back ordered, > would ship in a week or so. Last I heard from them. I have have had fair luck with them. The only snag I have had so far is I got substituted chips; MB7124's instead of 74S472's. > What is your experience with Unicorn? Did they actually ship parts to you? > Their prices are good, but I would pay a little more to get parts I need. > Or at least an "out of stock" notice after 7 weeks of waiting. I have yet to place my big order for all the chips & sockets I need. Right now I designing with in stock parts so hopefully I will not have back ordered parts. Other than Card-Edge connectors , 512x8 Prom & 16Kx4 static ram, I can second source most of the parts from B.G. Micro.Jameco has the other parts but I would use 32K x 8 ram when I build my memory card. > Billy Ben Alias woodelf From grant at stockly.com Sat Aug 11 02:22:44 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:22:44 -0800 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <46BD48B2.3020706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070810231634.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> At 09:27 PM 8/10/2007, you wrote: >Billy Pettit wrote: > >>My only order ever to Unicorn was for some TTL parts back on 22nd of June. >>I tweaked them a month later and got a reply that parts were back ordered, >>would ship in a week or so. Last I heard from them. > >I have have had fair luck with them. The only snag I have had so far >is I got substituted chips; MB7124's instead of 74S472's. I've had nothing but good luck with them. My first few orders were for a few hundred dollars. I've since bought thousands of parts. I don't buy anything but ICs from them. I get capacitors and mill max sockets directly from digikey. The only thing unicorn couldn't get me are some Mallory pots from the 88-ACR. I suggest you bug them a little more. They're good guys...something must be up... Grant From doug at stillhq.com Sat Aug 11 06:28:00 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:28:00 +1000 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200708110450.l7B4nLhL032838@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708110450.l7B4nLhL032838@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46BD9D40.7060401@stillhq.com> Just a thought.. Here in Australia, we have formal protection that is available to Trade Marks, through applying at the Trade Mark Office, and paying an associated fee. I have no idea whether the American equivalent exists, but I am dead certain that unless you have a formal Trade Mark number, you have *no* protection from somebody using your brand name. Does the same thing exist in the UK? I am also certain that there is no concept of a globally protected Trade Mark system. You have to apply for protection in every country. It was very interesting to see "Burger King" here operate as "Hungry Jacks", because somebody already had the name... Doug From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Aug 11 07:48:28 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:48:28 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46BD9D40.7060401@stillhq.com> References: <200708110450.l7B4nLhL032838@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46BD9D40.7060401@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70708110548n5457c2b5kfc45f93066bec19@mail.gmail.com> On 11/08/07, Doug Jackson wrote: > Here in Australia, we have formal protection that is available to Trade > Marks, through applying at the Trade Mark Office, and paying an > associated fee. > Does the same thing exist in the UK? > Yep. The fee is ?200 (US$ 400) ... BUT, it's got to be a distinctive name, and not purely descriptive. "VCF" might qualify, but "Vintage Computer Festival" probably won't, as it's too close to being a simple description. http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tm/t-applying/t-should.htm http://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-essentialreading.pdf (Warning 1.2MB PDF) However, I'd agree with other posters, trying to do something without Sellam's input is just DAFT. So this discussion is pointless. As for me, if it's held fairly locally, i might be persuaded to try to finish resurrecting my econet and bring along a set up such that people can have a play on an old-style viewdata BBS. (TG at H software, running on networked BBC micros.) And as long as i can convince the family that it'd make a good day out too :-) Rob PS. Another list would be find, but not on yahoo, please... From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 11 11:00:43 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:00:43 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 Message-ID: <56a52f4edc9073b7464b999e4bc556bd@valleyimplants.com> Picked up a 3B2-1000 from Josh about a month ago, and I'm still poking around prior to trying to mess with it (hardware looks fine, PSU good, tape roller is jelly but that's fixed by now, hard drive died, but that's being handled). Does anyone here know much about these beasts? I have the service manual from Manx, but it doesn't say much about the architecture. Here's my big question now: I have a 3B2-1000/80 backplane (CM519B) with a 3B2-1000/70 system board (CM518B) (in a 3B2-1000/60 box, to round things out...) 3B2-1000/60 has a single ?Bus slot and several buffered ?Bus slots. 3B2-1000/80 has Pbus slots and fewer buffered ?Bus slots (Pbus takes "Processor Element" multiprocessing cards). 1000/70 might or might not have a ?Bus slot (in the 1000/60 the ?Bus takes a cache card, the cache is integrated in the /70 and /80 system boards). The service manual explains the ?Bus and the Pbus both with the blanket term of "unbuffered access to the CPU bus on the system board". Does anyone know what the difference is? At this point, I'm trying to find out what the lower slot configuration is. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 11:13:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:13:06 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? Message-ID: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> This from today's New York Times story at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/technology/11novell.html about SCO losing its claims to ownership of Unix: "The Unix operating system, which has become popular with some independent-minded PC users as well as in the corporate world, was developed by AT&T researchers at Bell Labs beginning in 1969. During the 1970s, the operating system became highly influential in academic computing and in computer science departments. In the ?80s, it had a significant impact in the computer workstation and minicomputer markets, although it never gained a significant foothold in the personal computer business until Steven P. Jobs brought a version of Unix with him when he returned to Apple Computer in 1997. Some PC makers have begun to offer versions of Linux instead of Microsoft?s Windows operating systems." What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 11:27:35 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <632389.88480.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > In the ?80s, it had a significant impact in the > computer workstation > and minicomputer markets, although it never gained a > significant > foothold in the personal computer business until > Steven P. Jobs > brought a version of Unix with him when he returned > to Apple Computer > in 1997. Some PC makers have begun to offer versions > of Linux instead > of Microsoft?s Windows operating systems." > > What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? Well, probably since MacOS X is the only Unix operating system that most non-geeks are aware of, they felt the need to bring it up. I guess it makes sense - when Steve Jobs was running NeXT, they made Unix-based workstations, then when he returned to Apple, MacOS slowly became Unix. -Ian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 11 11:18:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708111628.MAA00694@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [quote from the NYT] > In the [']80s, [UNIX] had a significant impact in the computer > workstation and minicomputer markets, although it never gained a > significant foothold in the personal computer business until Steven > P. Jobs brought a version of Unix with him when he returned to Apple > Computer in 1997. [response to it] > What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? They gave Unix a foothold in the personal computer business when they switched from MacOS to something Unix-based. I'd guess that, to a first approximation, all personal computers running anything Unixy are Macs running OSX. (A second approximation would recognize Linux. Everything else is even more fringe.) Yes, I know OSX is Mach under the hood. For the NYT's purposes (and a lot of others, too) it's Unix. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 11 11:37:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 11, 7 09:13:06 am" Message-ID: <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> > This from today's New York Times story at > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/technology/11novell.html about SCO > losing its claims to ownership of Unix: > > "The Unix operating system, which has become popular with some > independent-minded PC users as well as in the corporate world, was > developed by AT&T researchers at Bell Labs beginning in 1969. During > the 1970s, the operating system became highly influential in academic > computing and in computer science departments. > > In the _80s, it had a significant impact in the computer workstation > and minicomputer markets, although it never gained a significant > foothold in the personal computer business until Steven P. Jobs > brought a version of Unix with him when he returned to Apple Computer > in 1997. Some PC makers have begun to offer versions of Linux instead > of Microsoft_s Windows operating systems." > > What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? I think the statement is legitimate. Mac OS X is the Unixy thing with the largest installed user base. I would imagine, though I have no figures, that they are at the top or near the top of the desktop Unix market simply because of the number of OS X capable Macs out there. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The truth is out there. The speculation, however, is really out there. ----- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 11 12:04:45 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:04:45 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708111628.MAA00694@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111628.MAA00694@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: At 12:18 PM -0400 8/11/07, der Mouse wrote: >[quote from the NYT] >> In the [']80s, [UNIX] had a significant impact in the computer >> workstation and minicomputer markets, although it never gained a >> significant foothold in the personal computer business until Steven >> P. Jobs brought a version of Unix with him when he returned to Apple >> Computer in 1997. >[response to it] >> What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? > >They gave Unix a foothold in the personal computer business when they >switched from MacOS to something Unix-based. I'd guess that, to a >first approximation, all personal computers running anything Unixy are >Macs running OSX. (A second approximation would recognize Linux. >Everything else is even more fringe.) > >Yes, I know OSX is Mach under the hood. For the NYT's purposes (and a >lot of others, too) it's Unix. Actually with the next release it is Mac OS X is UNIX. Leopard has attained the UNIX 03 certification from the Open Group. The only other certified OS's are from Sun, IBM, and HP. http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisemac/archives/2007/07/leopard_gets_un.html If you have a hard time accepting this, you're not alone, I know I do. Though this makes me even more curious to see Leopard. Of course *finally* having virtual desktops is enough to make me want it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 11 12:06:57 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BDECB0.385D3EF0@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > This from today's New York Times story at > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/technology/11novell.html about SCO > losing its claims to ownership of Unix: > > "The Unix operating system, which has become popular with some > independent-minded PC users as well as in the corporate world, was > developed by AT&T researchers at Bell Labs beginning in 1969. During > the 1970s, the operating system became highly influential in academic > computing and in computer science departments. > > In the ?80s, it had a significant impact in the computer workstation > and minicomputer markets, although it never gained a significant > foothold in the personal computer business until Steven P. Jobs > brought a version of Unix with him when he returned to Apple Computer > in 1997. Some PC makers have begun to offer versions of Linux instead > of Microsoft?s Windows operating systems." > > What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? Presumably they're referring to Job's bringing NextOS with him when he returned to Apple (mid 90s). NextOS (late 80s) was based on the Mach kernel with a Unixy interface layer (Carnegie-Mellon U., mid 80s). At Apple it became Mac-OSX (late 90s), which is currently running on millions of Macs. (On Mac-OSX you can actually run Unix shells in line-at-a-time terminal windows, as well as boot the machine into single user mode and get a simple line-at-a-time unix shell, no graphical user-interface involved.) mid 80s late 80s mid 90s late 90s ------- -------- ------ -------- Mach kernel with --> NextOS --> Jobs returns --> MacOS-X with Unixy interface to Apple It's a rather narrow rendition of Unix history. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Aug 11 12:29:45 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:29:45 -0500 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> At 11:37 AM 8/11/2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I think the statement is legitimate. Mac OS X is the Unixy thing with the >largest installed user base. I would imagine, though I have no figures, >that they are at the top or near the top of the desktop Unix market simply >because of the number of OS X capable Macs out there. Yes, it's been a wonderful attraction and introduction for many folks who were previously tied to Windows or more true Unixes whose parent companies have faded, or Linux users who wanted more mainline software options. Every few months I'm stunned to hear about another old die-hard partisan friend who's switched to Mac. With VMware options for simultaneously running other contemporary OSes, it's amazing. This is very, very nice technology for the classic computer emulation community, too. I look forward to its future. Booting up old OSes and CC emulators could become quite drag-and-drop. The only hard part is the price tag. The tricked-out Mac Pro on my wish list is about $6000 *before* adding the Adobe and Apple software suites I desire. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 12:32:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:32:55 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 11, 7 09:13:06 am", <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2007 at 9:37, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I think the statement is legitimate. Mac OS X is the Unixy thing with the > largest installed user base. I would imagine, though I have no figures, > that they are at the top or near the top of the desktop Unix market simply > because of the number of OS X capable Macs out there. As a Unix old-timer, it seems very strange to talk about "Unix" without mentioning a command-line interface or any of the supporting programs that make up the whole system. How does one, on an OS X out of the box run a shell script? Where in OS X do I find sed or m4 or awk? Exactly what makes Unix Unix? Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 12:44:36 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <181605.97840.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> How does > one, on an OS X out > of the box run a shell script? Where in OS X do I > find sed or m4 or > awk? Applications/Utilities/Terminal sed, awk, tar, vi, sh, csh, ksh - they're all there. -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Aug 11 12:44:37 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:44:37 -0500 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070811124123.080ac8b0@mail> At 12:32 PM 8/11/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >As a Unix old-timer, it seems very strange to talk about "Unix" >without mentioning a command-line interface or any of the supporting >programs that make up the whole system. How does one, on an OS X out >of the box run a shell script? Where in OS X do I find sed or m4 or >awk? Of course there's an OS X 'terminal' app for a command line. And you find it in /usr/bin/sed unless you've moved it. And you can replace the BSD-y, POSIX-y one with a GNU one. The desktop GUI is just a program of course, as was X Window. - John From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 11 12:41:48 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:41:48 -0700 Subject: PCI questions Message-ID: <84e1561b94464de6193b75b81657a526@valleyimplants.com> Probably pretty basic PCI questions, but it seems to be difficult to find detailed information about PCI online (for less than big $$). I have a 98% useless 53C875-based SCSI card (Diamond Fireport 40), useless because the Diamond PCI ID is different from the Symbios PCI ID. I have several machines that support 53C875 chips natively (Alpha, Sun, perhaps HP 9k), so I'm trying to figure out how to turn this thing from a piece of junk that I trip over into an asset. Looking at the card, there is a small Atmel EEPROM (not the firmware). (a) does anyone know if there's a way to bittwiddle without pulling the EEPROM? (2) since the machines I will be using it in have onboard firmware support, what would happen if I just pulled the chip (or is the setup of onboard peripherals integrated into the system firmware and the card initialization will fail without the EEPROM)? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 11 12:42:32 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 11, 7 09:13:06 am", <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708111746.NAA01466@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [... OS X ...] > As a Unix old-timer, it seems very strange to talk about "Unix" > without mentioning a command-line interface or any of the supporting > programs that make up the whole system. How does one, on an OS X out > of the box run a shell script? Same way you would under any Unix: type its name to your shell. *Getting* a shell is the only part that's at all difficult, and that's just a matter of clicking on Terminal, AIUI. > Where in OS X do I find sed or m4 or awk? I don't run OS X, but I once remotely helped someone who did, and, over an ssh login, it felt like Unix, with some slight oddities (which became more apparent the deeper you dug, either into sysadmin stuff or into system programming stuff). Things like sed and awk? I don't recall looking up the directory, but they were in my path.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 11 13:11:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:11:13 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111628.MAA00694@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Aug 11, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If you have a hard time accepting this, you're not alone, I know I > do. Though this makes me even more curious to see Leopard. Of > course *finally* having virtual desktops is enough to make me want it. I've been using virtual desktops with OS X for years; I doubt I could get any work done otherwise. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Aug 11 13:18:29 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:18:29 -0300 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? References: Message-ID: <04c901c7dc44$7ab5a540$f0fea8c0@alpha> > So do I. One of the worst jobs I ever had to do was 'edit' the wiring on > a 9 pin Mini-DIN. It is so easy! :o) > I don't know why they're so widely used [1]. The don't (IMHO) make > reliable contact, the solder-type plugs are often too large to fit into a > socket that was intended for a moulded one, they have nothing to recomend > them. Mac uses them since 1982, am I wrong? :o) > Where I can, I buy the plug-to-open-end cables (or plug-to-plug and cut > them in half) from companies like RS components. Expensive, but it saves > a lot of four-letter words... That is the same I do here, let make it easy! :) From technobug at comcast.net Sat Aug 11 13:31:58 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:31:58 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708111701.l7BH10Iq041779@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708111701.l7BH10Iq041779@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <385D6DC0-FE34-4F0D-A1DC-407E6DFD6210@comcast.net> On Aat, 11 Aug 2007 09:13:06 -0700, Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > What does Apple and Steve Jobs have to do with Unix? > > Cheers, > Chuck See: CRC From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 11 13:31:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:31:36 +0100 Subject: non-subscribers, slackers, and scoundrels in general was Re: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46BD3F11.30909@bitsavers.org> References: <46BD3F11.30909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46BE0088.8050001@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > Loads of people even on this list are sitting on > > stacks of old floppies, and don't even take the time > > to ensure the data therein won't be consigned to > > oblivion. > > Lurkers far outnumber active participants on mailing lists. Someone did a study and put the typical figure at 6:1, which seems believable to me (I'm afraid I don't have a reference handy). I suspect it's a similar figure for Usenet groups. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 11 13:37:07 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:37:07 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111628.MAA00694@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0400 8/11/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Aug 11, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>If you have a hard time accepting this, you're not alone, I know I >>do. Though this makes me even more curious to see Leopard. Of >>course *finally* having virtual desktops is enough to make me want >>it. > > I've been using virtual desktops with OS X for years; I doubt I >could get any work done otherwise. I know 3rd party solutions exist, but I made the decision a few years ago to avoid 3rd party enhancements to Mac OS X itself. My one exception has been font management software. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 11 13:47:05 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:47:05 +0100 Subject: non-subscribers, slackers, and scoundrels in general was Re: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <208712.26563.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <208712.26563.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BE0429.9000707@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > Senseless point to contemplate, but I have to wonder > why some bona fide collectors choose not to > participate (or at least monitor from time to time) a > vintage-based mailing list. Too busy. I'm the same at the moment - I'm pretty much skimming the list every few days. The content's interesting enough, and it's taking a lot of willpower not to reply to more than one or two posts (hence I can see why some people don't subscribe at all even though they know the list is here) > But frankly it does piss me off to think that there > are ahem resources out there that are going untapped. I know what you mean there - it is frustrating when you know that someone out there probably has the answer to a problem, but you just don't know how to reach them... > Loads of people even on this list are sitting on > stacks of old floppies, and don't even take the time > to ensure the data therein won't be consigned to > oblivion. I mean how much effort does it take to set > up some 486 or early P- w/a 5 1/4" floppy drive, and > get on with it? Fscking lots, believe me. Stuffing disks into drives is time consuming enough, but probably only takes up half the time - the rest is in understanding enough about what wrote the disk in the first place to make sure it's imaged correctly, and in properly recording enough visual detail* about the label and jacket. That and doing re-reads to get around problems, keeping drive heads clean etc. * I'm coming around to thinking that for the museum media we should probably be scanning low-quality (visual) images of the disk/jacket. It's surprising how many disks I find where the labels are badly hand-written and open to interpretation; once someone's done a best-guess interpretation in ASCII, it's possible that information can be lost... (the other one is that in some cases it's the *layout* of the label data which can provide clues as to what something might be, rather than the character data itself) From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 14:28:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:28:53 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 11, 7 09:13:06 am", <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Aug 2007 at 9:37, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> I think the statement is legitimate. Mac OS X is the Unixy thing with the >> largest installed user base. I would imagine, though I have no figures, >> that they are at the top or near the top of the desktop Unix market simply >> because of the number of OS X capable Macs out there. > > As a Unix old-timer, it seems very strange to talk about "Unix" > without mentioning a command-line interface or any of the supporting > programs that make up the whole system. How does one, on an OS X out > of the box run a shell script? Where in OS X do I find sed or m4 or > awk? > > Exactly what makes Unix Unix? You do realize that OS X "out of the box" has all of those things fairly easy to find. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 11 14:36:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:36:58 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111628.MAA00694@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <15FBF4E3-EFDB-4DD6-AD65-F7C27E669960@neurotica.com> On Aug 11, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> If you have a hard time accepting this, you're not alone, I know >>> I do. Though this makes me even more curious to see Leopard. Of >>> course *finally* having virtual desktops is enough to make me >>> want it. >> >> I've been using virtual desktops with OS X for years; I doubt I >> could get any work done otherwise. > > I know 3rd party solutions exist, but I made the decision a few > years ago to avoid 3rd party enhancements to Mac OS X itself. My > one exception has been font management software. Ahhh ok, I am less confused now. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 14:39:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:39:11 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2007 at 15:28, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You do realize that OS X "out of the box" has all of those things fairly > easy to find. Well, my ignorance comes from being too "vintage" in my Mac endeavors. I certainly didn't see any of that stuff in OS 9 or 8. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 14:46:51 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:46:51 -0700 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: >From: Grant Stockly ----snip---- >> >> >>$289 USD for the kit ($300 even shipped anywhere in the US): >> >>http://www.arlabs.com/syscost.htm >> >>It will do most stuff without adapters, but it *can* do 1702's if you buy >>an adapter for it, which costs $59.00 > >I got pretty excited, but $59 is for read only. : ( The 1702 write module >is $695... > Writing 1702A's is tricky. You need to be able to switch the data lines by about 50 volts. If one is actually interested in building one from scratch, look on Al Kossows bitsavers.org under the Intel section. There is a manual for the MSC4 that shows a schematic for a MP7-02 1702 programming circuit. This board could be driven from most any digital I/O source. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 14:54:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:54:47 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com>, <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about present-day "state of the Mac" issues: If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 15:00:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:00:42 -0700 Subject: PCI questions In-Reply-To: <84e1561b94464de6193b75b81657a526@valleyimplants.com> References: <84e1561b94464de6193b75b81657a526@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <46BDB2FA.16556.18EF037A@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2007 at 10:41, Scott Quinn wrote: > Looking at the card, there is a small Atmel EEPROM (not the firmware). > (a) does anyone know if there's a way to bittwiddle without pulling the > EEPROM? (2) since the machines I will be using it in have onboard > firmware support, what would happen if I just pulled the chip (or is > the setup of onboard peripherals integrated into the system firmware > and the card initialization will fail without the EEPROM)? I've seen PCI editors for selected chipsets, but I don't know what the one on your board is. It's probably possible to modify the vendor ID and resource information, but you need the right software to do it. You might have better luck hacking the driver/enumerator from a similar card to work with this thing. You didn't specify the platform you want to use. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 15:01:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:01:45 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: >From: woodelf >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>There's also Megasquirt, where you can buy the hardware platform as a >>kit, and download the circuit diagrams and firmware source code. > >Umm time to change the subject line ... Fuel injection has very little >with a scratch built computer. >PS. Looking at a PROM burner the lowest cost one I could find is $750. >Where they that expensive (the programmers) back in the 70's when people >used them? > Hi Professional ones were. There were a number of them that were simple data latches and voltage supplies. These were usually less than $100 but you had to supply the computer to actually run them. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 15:02:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:02:34 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BD9057.13631.1867B7DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BE15DA.3020307@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You do realize that OS X "out of the box" has all of those things fairly >> easy to find. > > Well, my ignorance comes from being too "vintage" in my Mac > endeavors. I certainly didn't see any of that stuff in OS 9 or 8. OS 8 and 9 are what are referred to as "Classic" Mac OS. It's the one you're familiar with, all GUI, all cooperative-multitasking, no command prompt. They're about as different as they come. OS X is Mach with BSD and a Mac-ish GUI on top. I'd suggest that you should try it. It's actually a reasonably enjoyable experience. It's more "NeXTstep" than "System". Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 15:09:53 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:09:53 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? Because they want to make money? -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 11 15:16:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:16:29 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708111616.29640.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 11 August 2007 15:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about > present-day "state of the Mac" issues: > > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would > seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. Because the graphical windowing systems for each are nothing like each other? MacOS X has the capibility to run Xwindows programs, but it's more of a compatibilty feature. Native OSX programs are written for Aqua or whatever Apple calls its PDF-derived windowing environment. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 11 15:20:13 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:20:13 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708111620.13722.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 11 August 2007 16:09, William Donzelli wrote: > > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of > > several of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and > > OS X versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? > > Because they want to make money? There are plenty of software companies that sell software that runs on Linux, and make money. I'd be suprised if people like Adobe wouldn't all of a sudden have a large Linux market share if they would just release their various software with a Linux version. Oracle and IBM, for two, seem to be making plenty of dough off of proprietary Linux software (not to mention Novel/SuSE, RedHat, etc, who sell "enterprise" linux distributions with some proprietary crap included in it). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 15:24:04 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:24:04 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <004a01c7d7c0$8d5159c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: >From: "Ensor" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:27:20 +0100 > >Hi, > > > I've also got an ancient Taiwanese one that works only with > >a PC XT that will handle 2708s. > >That wouldn't be the "Sunshine" brand unit by any chance? > >I've got one of those too (along with their PAL programmer from around the >same time) and it won't work in anything newer than an XT. :-( > > Hi This is usually a problem of timing loops. One can often do some reverse engineering and either fix the timing loops or figure hope to write ones own code to control the hardware. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 15:26:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:26:06 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46BDB8EE.507.190643A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2007 at 16:09, William Donzelli wrote: > Because they want to make money? I must be very thick today, so you'll need to explain. Said vendors already supply both OS X and Windows versions to all purchasers. Which is actually used is entirely up to the customer. --Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 11 15:23:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:23:31 +0100 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BE1AC3.2050501@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several >> of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X >> versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? > > Because they want to make money? Because they don't want to commit to supporting 827 different combinations of distribution / kernel version / desktop environment, I suspect. 99% of the time a piece of software will work regardless of the underlying OS, but vendors no doubt crap themselves about that 1%... Shame they can't get their act together and make a version for a particular setup though, then still sell an unsupported flavour of the product for any other combo (but there's all the negative press that people bitching about things not working in an unsupported environment generates... sometimes users are their own worst nightmare) From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 15:27:29 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:27:29 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com>, <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BE1BB1.7030600@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about > present-day "state of the Mac" issues: > > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would > seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. Well, it depends on which API they leveraged to write the application. If it's Cocoa (which it probably is...), then it'll be different enough from your usual UNIXy stuff that porting will be a problem. Same with Carbon, which is an API which allows one to write software that works on both OS 9 and OS X transparently. Then there are POSIX and Java, for which the implications point to it being very possible to port the software easily, but make it difficult to use lots of OS X-specific features. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 11 15:23:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com>, <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708112029.QAA03420@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about > present-day "state of the Mac" issues: > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would > seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. I don't *know*, of course, since I have no inside information about any such vendors. But some plausible answers come to mind: (1) Because "high-end" applications usually depend on a lot more than just the "Unix" in OS X. They typically depend on Aqua as well (that's the fancy - and closed, and proprietary - GUI layer). Porting them (too often, this really means rewriting them) for Linux is likely to be difficult, especially since "Linux" is not a single thing when it comes to higher-end graphics - there's far more variability in graphics hardware under Linux than across the entire OSX-supporting Mac line. (2) Because a substantial part of the cost, to the vendor, of a Linux version is in not the creating of it, but the customer support for it. (3) Because they have limited resources and have chosen to invest them in the Windows and Mac versions, expecting higher ROI there. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Aug 11 15:29:00 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:29:00 -0500 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070811152451.082d3600@mail> At 02:54 PM 8/11/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several >of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X >versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would >seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. Obviously, each platform's desktop GUI has a different API. You might be able to find some similarities, of course, but there's always a gotcha or two. It's one thing to be "able" to make a Linux version, it's another entirely to want to develop, market, sell and support it. Who'd buy it? :-) Enterprise Linux is one thing, fanboy another. Once upon a time, my company's product was sold on several platforms: Windows of several CPUs, SGI, Windows, 32-bit DOS extender and waning Amiga. We had a Linux version, too, but we only used it in-house because the debugging tools were better in several areas. We licensed parts under Mac, too, but never sold it to consumers that way. - John From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 11 16:34:36 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:34:36 -0500 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB8EE.507.190643A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <200708112038.l7BKcKVl011766@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Because they want to make money? > > I must be very thick today, so you'll need to explain. Said vendors > already supply both OS X and Windows versions to all purchasers. > Which is actually used is entirely up to the customer. While I'm sure it is possible to make money in Linux software, I can tell you from personal experience that there is a strong perception that "all things Linux should be free" - I sold cross development tools for many years (still do actually), and I've been asked about Linix versions many times - I don't think I ever was asked if I'd sell Linux tools, or what they would cost etc... But many times I got asked "how about free versions for Linux?" ... I never developed linux versions of my tools. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 15:39:37 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:39:37 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB8EE.507.190643A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB8EE.507.190643A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I must be very thick today, so you'll need to explain. Said vendors > already supply both OS X and Windows versions to all purchasers. > Which is actually used is entirely up to the customer. Well, maybe a bit thick, but since the list rejects HTML code in messages I could not put a bit red flashing WARNING: JOKE AHEAD signal up. The explanation: There are lots of Linux customers that tend to want all their software for free. It is part of the culture. -- Will From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 11 15:52:04 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:52:04 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070811205204.GD7569@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about > present-day "state of the Mac" issues: > > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would > seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. In the mid-90s, I was hired to help port the MajorBBS from DOS to Unix [1][2]. While the initial work was done under Linux (0.99? 1.0?) Galaticomm had no plans of actually *selling* a Linux version (SunOS, yup. HP? Yup. Linux? Forget it). The rational was: We can sell a Unix version for $3,000, since that's what the Unix market will bear (and expects to see as a price [3]). Also, if you run Unix, you know what you are doing. What Galacticomm was afraid of were DOS users who had heard of Linux, and wanted to switch for both price reasons (Linux was free) and performance (less mucking with CONFIG.SYS, AUTOEXEC.BAT and the various memory drivers) and then call them for support issues beyond the scope of what they could handle ("How do I install Linux?"). The pressure go great enough that Galacticomm finally did release a version for Linux, then got slammed on the price (the full $3,000 Unix price), mainly from DOS users who couldn't understand the price differential [4]. Then again, selling BBS software in the age of the Internet was a losing proposition [5] and the company couldn't transision itself (severe denial at that place, let me tell you). -spc (Probably last used a BBS in 1991 ... ) [1] http://www.kenmaier.com/gcomm/mbbsunix.htm [2] I only lasted two weeks. I left (or was let go, depending upon who you ask) because I didn't agree with their coding standards. [3] If we sell it for the DOS price---$300, then no one that runs Unix will buy it because it's a "toy" program. [4] A few years later I worked for a company that sold a database conversion program for a range of computers, from PCs all the way to mainframes (it was a cool mainframe). The price---anywhere from $1,500 (for the PC version) to $50,000 (for the mainframe version). The kicker? It was the same codebase for all versions. [5] Once I saw the Internet in 1989, I lost all interest in BBSes, as I didn't see the point any more. I was probably a bit ahead of the curve back then. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 16:01:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:01:49 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BDB8EE.507.190643A1@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46BDC14D.22318.1926F6B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2007 at 16:39, William Donzelli wrote: > There are lots of Linux customers that tend to want all their software > for free. It is part of the culture. I understand. Been there as a vendor in another life. Learned never to sell to lawyers, cops, gamers or missionaries. All seem to think that their higher calling justifies piracy. I've got the email logs to prove it. The bit about different GUI APIs didn't make much sense to me, seeing as how these packages also support the Windows GUI--one would expect that they're already prepared for surprises. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 11 16:05:55 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708112038.l7BKcKVl011766@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200708112038.l7BKcKVl011766@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200708112113.RAA03959@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...], I can tell you from personal experience that there is a strong > perception that "all things Linux should be free" - I sold cross > development tools for many years (still do actually), and I've been > asked about Linix versions many times - I don't think I ever was > asked if I'd sell Linux tools, or what they would cost etc... But > many times I got asked "how about free versions for Linux?" It occurs to me that this phrasing may to an extent be putting cause and effect the wrong way around: that the sort of person who is unwilling to pay for software will (tend to) gravitate to Linux, rather than people feeling (or tending to feel) that if it's for Linux it therefore should be free. Of course, there isn't much difference between the two from a pragmatic vendor point of view. (I also could be totally off base; I have no data to back up either position, and this speculation really is speculating in a vacuum in that regard.) The only personal experience I have is anecdotal; someone I knew created a Windows program, and I asked if he'd mind if I built a version for non-Windows. He said, basically, "if it won't eat into Windows sales, feel free". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 11 16:13:55 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:13:55 -0500 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com>, <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46BE2693.9000203@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about > present-day "state of the Mac" issues: > > If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would > seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. Several of the people who have already responded have named valid reasons. We support a bunch of Tivoli and IBM software on AIX and Linux, and I worked with IBM a lot in the late 90's when they were ramping up their Linux presence, so I've gotten to hear a lot of vendors and developers discuss this. 1) The GPL scares a lot of vendors spitless. IBM had a *hard* time getting any Linux software out the door, including and especially kernel code, for many years. 90-120 days in development, 9-15 months in Legal getting signed off. IBM paid a lot of their developers for a lot of time spent on backdoor projects - stuff that was contributed and copyrighted under the individual's name. 2) Linux is, almost by definition, a rolling beta. It's a nightmare to get software certified and supportable on a current revision of any distribution, much less any large subset of the current major distributions. RedHat started breaking that barrier with RH Advanced Server and now RH Enterprise Linux, and SuSE/Novell have followed suit. The main selling feature of RHAS2.1 was that RedHat committed to 1 release per 18-24 months, and a stabilized kernel version within the release. That single feature sold them into an astounding number of datacenters and grabbed commitments from major ISVs withing weeks of its release. 3) Linux users and admins are the world's worst customers. I train them, I support them, I clean up their messes, and I am one, so I can say that with confidence. Accustomed to getting what they think they need for free, they're more prone to piracy than most. Very few have any formal training, so most have no clue how little they really know. And, since everything and the virtual dog is out there for hacking, including the OS itself, you have NO idea what they're actually running till you've done some expensive discovery. 4) This last will get me flamed, but it's a fact; Linux is a miserable excuse for a desktop OS, for all the above reasons. Its sole justification is that it beats hell out of Windows. I ran Linux as my desktop and mobile OS from 96 or 97 till 2003, but when I saw OS X run in 2003, I sold some other toys to buy a G4 and have never looked back. For end-user apps like Adobe-ware, Adobe is very correct in their assumption that almost anyone who needs their product, can afford it, *and* is willing to pay for it is very likely not running Linux. Yes, there are exceptions. No, they are not common, and no, the existence of commercial end-user applications will not change that. Doc From marvin at west.net Sat Aug 11 16:26:59 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:26:59 -0700 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers Message-ID: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> They are not only wrong, but rather vague! But for their list of the top 5 collectible computers, take a look at: http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28760.html?tag=nl.e415 For those of you using real browsers that can't view the video, they are: 1 - Apple I 2 - Altair 3 - Apple Lisa 4 - Xerox Alto 5 - Commodore 64 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 16:38:44 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:38:44 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BE2693.9000203@mdrconsult.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE2693.9000203@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: Just an observation: > 1) The GPL scares a lot of vendors spitless. > 2) Linux is, almost by definition, a rolling beta. > 3) Linux users and admins are the world's worst customers. These three reasons are pretty much why the mainframe folks can laugh justifiably at the Linux crowd. > 4) This last will get me flamed, but it's a fact; Linux is a miserable > excuse for a desktop OS, for all the above reasons. Its sole > justification is that it beats hell out of Windows. And these days, it is getting hard to even say "beats the hell out of". These are not the days of Windows 95 anymore - it is pretty stable and easy to use. And the Windows GUI was never all that bad after 2.0 (yes, TWO) - it sure "beats the hell out of" some of the nightmares seen in the Unix world. Cripes - I see another Windows/Linux war coming up on the list. I better fold up camp... -- Will From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Aug 11 16:55:02 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:55:02 +0100 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708112039.l7BKbxUk046484@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708112039.l7BKbxUk046484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:23:24 -0400 (EDT) > From: der Mouse >> If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several >> of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X >> versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would >> seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. > > I don't *know*, of course, since I have no inside information about > any > such vendors. But some plausible answers come to mind: > > (1) Because "high-end" applications usually depend on a lot more than > just the "Unix" in OS X. They typically depend on Aqua as well > (that's > the fancy - and closed, and proprietary - GUI layer). Porting them > (too often, this really means rewriting them) for Linux is likely > to be > difficult, especially since "Linux" is not a single thing when it > comes > to higher-end graphics - there's far more variability in graphics > hardware under Linux than across the entire OSX-supporting Mac line. > > (2) Because a substantial part of the cost, to the vendor, of a Linux > version is in not the creating of it, but the customer support for it. > > (3) Because they have limited resources and have chosen to invest them > in the Windows and Mac versions, expecting higher ROI there. I am technical director of one of those vendors, and you are spot on. Except that Aqua is merely a set of guidelines, not actual code. The code is called either Carbon or Cocoa, though you could write your own and still conform to the Aqua user interface guidelines. Anyway, do things like QuickTime, OpenGL and Quesa exist on Linux? It would take me time I do not have (and human memory) to keep up with what is and is not in yet another operating system. Apple spends a lot of money keeping developers like me up to date with their developments, I presume nothing similar is done with Linux. What spare time I have is more enjoyably spent of classic cars and classic computers. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 11 17:04:39 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:04:39 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? References: <181605.97840.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BE3277.4FF95AA3@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > How does > > one, on an OS X out > > of the box run a shell script? Where in OS X do I > > find sed or m4 or > > awk? > > Applications/Utilities/Terminal > > sed, awk, tar, vi, sh, csh, ksh - they're all there. Alternatively, if you 'really want' the Unix experience on a Mac under OSX, hold down command-S when it boots. Boots into a single-user shell with minimal system initialisation. From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Aug 11 17:08:46 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:08:46 -0700 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap References: <46BB4C85.9070208@jetnet.ab.ca> <1186557568.455.33.camel@elric><200708052353.l75NroH8011647@mwave.heeltoe.com><200708080124.53039.rtellason@verizon.net><1186557568.455.33.camel@elric> <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <001101c7dc64$37ae0420$0201a8c0@hal9000> > >>Umm time to change the subject line ... Fuel injection has very little > >>with a scratch built computer. > >>PS. Looking at a PROM burner the lowest cost one I could find is $750. > >>Where they that expensive (the programmers) back in the 70's when people > >>used them? The Data I/Os we used in the late 70s and early 80s were $5,000 to $10,000 depending on options. I believe we started with a System 19 ( with a paper tape reader ) and we were in Hog Heaven when the 29B came out. Mostly 2708s programmed back then ( uFORTH for the 1802 and 8085A ). Best regards, Steven C From evan at snarc.net Sat Aug 11 17:08:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:08:00 -0400 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers Message-ID: <200708112209.l7BM8w4h036580@keith.ezwind.net> That is really weird. "Top 5" by what standards? Will have to write about this in my Computerworld blog... From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 11 17:16:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:16:14 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <200708112039.l7BKbxUk046484@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <46BDD2BE.29026.196B166A@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2007 at 22:55, Roger Holmes wrote: > It would take me time I do not have (and human memory) to keep up > with what is and is not in yet another operating system. Apple > spends a lot of money keeping developers like me up to date with > their developments, I presume nothing similar is done with Linux. > What spare time I have is more enjoyably spent of classic cars and > classic computers. Is that another Apple/Microsoft difference? Microsoft developers spend a lot of money (i.e. paying for MSDN privleges) keeping up to date on Windows developments. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 11 17:01:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:01:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <009401c7dbd0$891ae470$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Aug 11, 7 05:31:49 am Message-ID: > > I do have the original Softy somwhere. SC/MP based, TV output, > >programs 2708s. I can't rememebr if it emulatrs as well. > > I've never actually seen one of those for real, just pictures. > > Is it just me, or did they use a very similar case to that of the ZX-80?=20 > Certainly, the bottom part of the case looks identical in the pictures I'= > ve=20 > seen. Case? What case? Are you sure you're not thinking of a Softy-II? The original Softy is a bare PCB, remarkably similar in form-factor to the MK14... -tony From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Aug 11 17:48:50 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:48:50 -0700 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers In-Reply-To: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> Message-ID: <01f901c7dc69$ca001bb0$6e01a8c0@NFORCE4> Nice. They used two images from my site and didn't even have the courtesy to ask. . . /sigh Of course, the list is crap too. . . but who asked me. :) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 2:27 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: CNET Collectible Computers They are not only wrong, but rather vague! But for their list of the top 5 collectible computers, take a look at: http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28760.html?tag=nl.e415 For those of you using real browsers that can't view the video, they are: 1 - Apple I 2 - Altair 3 - Apple Lisa 4 - Xerox Alto 5 - Commodore 64 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 11 18:45:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:45:05 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <200708112039.l7BKbxUk046484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200708111945.05648.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 11 August 2007 17:55, Roger Holmes wrote: > Anyway, do things like QuickTime, OpenGL and Quesa exist on Linux? QT: xine, mplayer. Both are way more compatible with more formats than Quicktime is. QT and Window Media Player don't come close to supporting all the variants of just MPEG-4, that xine/mplayer do. OpenGL: It's called the same thing on MacOS, Windows, Linux, and every other UNIX. There's lots of high-performance graphics work that gets done on Linux boxes with nVidia cards. According to Quesa's website, "Quesa currently supports Mac OS 8/9, Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows." > It would take me time I do not have (and human memory) to keep up > with what is and is not in yet another operating system. Apple > spends a lot of money keeping developers like me up to date with > their developments, I presume nothing similar is done with Linux. > What spare time I have is more enjoyably spent of classic cars and > classic computers. I don't understand what to make of this. Basic OS API features tend to change slowly... and if you want to keep track of GUI or other random library/toolkit updates, just pay general attention to the mailing lists they have, download new versions as the come out, and see if your code still compiles against them. There's been some issues with newer versions of GCC breaking older code, but in general, if that happens, its because your code was written poorly and not to the language specifications. Worst case, you can just install whatever version of the libraries your app uses along with the app in some out of the way place, and ignore changes to the system libraries, GUI, etc, pretty trivially. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 11 18:57:28 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BE1AC3.2050501@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com> <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> <46BE1AC3.2050501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070811165419.A18125@shell.lmi.net> > >> If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several > >> of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X > >> versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? On Sat, 11 Aug 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Because they don't want to commit to supporting 827 different combinations of > distribution / kernel version / desktop environment, I suspect. 99% of the > time a piece of software will work regardless of the underlying OS, but > vendors no doubt crap themselves about that 1%... There are only 827 different versions??? How many different versions would they actually need to creats to be able to declare that they support Linux? > Shame they can't get their act together and make a version for a particular > setup though, then still sell an unsupported flavour of the product for any > other combo (but there's all the negative press that people bitching about > things not working in an unsupported environment generates... sometimes users > are their own worst nightmare) Yep. Users of Linux #828 and above will "tell the world" that the support sucks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 11 20:16:26 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:16:26 -0500 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708112113.RAA03959@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200708112038.l7BKcKVl011766@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200708120020.l7C0KBqt022362@hosting.monisys.ca> > > [...], I can tell you from personal experience that there is a strong > > perception that "all things Linux should be free" - I sold cross > > development tools for many years (still do actually), and I've been > > asked about Linix versions many times - I don't think I ever was > > asked if I'd sell Linux tools, or what they would cost etc... But > > many times I got asked "how about free versions for Linux?" > > It occurs to me that this phrasing may to an extent be putting cause > and effect the wrong way around: that the sort of person who is > unwilling to pay for software will (tend to) gravitate to Linux, rather > than people feeling (or tending to feel) that if it's for Linux it > therefore should be free. This may be part of it, but I don't think it's a major factor. I know numerous people/customers running both, and as far as I can tell, the perception is: Linux==free, Win/Mac/Commercial=Pay (or steal - but at least *most* people know they are stealing on some level). There are many sides - My impression is that Linux users (even the same users who purchased non-linux versions) just *think* it should be free... This means a lower initial market, and also a higher likelyhood that the software will get "passed around" (and not considered to be theft). I made the decision that there just wasn't enough sales in it to justify the development and administrative costs. > Of course, there isn't much difference between the two from a pragmatic > vendor point of view. (I also could be totally off base; I have no > data to back up either position, and this speculation really is > speculating in a vacuum in that regard.) The only personal experience > I have is anecdotal; someone I knew created a Windows program, and I > asked if he'd mind if I built a version for non-Windows. He said, > basically, "if it won't eat into Windows sales, feel free". In my case, I would have had to do the development, endure the support costs, and I do believe it would have impacted other sales, because my tools are used in software development for non-windows platforms - many of the people in my market did (and do) run Linux boxes. I didn't mind when existing customers said "I would like to see a Linux version", but I got lots of "how about free linux versions" from people I'd never heard of. And I'm probably more liberal than many vendors - I often give my stuff away. I recognize that many people who did "pirate" it would not have purchased it and I'm OK with that (Unlike companies who claim "we lost $$$ million last year due to piracy" - counting every copy made as if it would have been a guaranteed sale). In an ideal world, everyone would pay what it was worth to them... I just didn't have the time to do freebies, and I did not see a revenue stream worth the effort... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 11 19:06:28 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CNET Collectible Computers In-Reply-To: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> References: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> Message-ID: <20070811170406.U18125@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007, Marvin Johnston wrote: > They are not only wrong, but rather vague! But for their list of the top 5 > collectible computers, take a look at: > 1 - Apple I > 2 - Altair > 3 - Apple Lisa > 4 - Xerox Alto > 5 - Commodore 64 What?? Howcome my favorite didn't make the top 5? Or, howzbout the PBM-1000 (in-house machine at Micropro/Wordstar) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 11 19:31:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:31:05 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com>, <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 12:54 PM -0700 8/11/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Another stupid question (forgive me, I am woefully ignorant about >present-day "state of the Mac" issues: > >If OS X is really Unix under the hood, then why do vendors of several >of my high-end applications that are offered in Windoze and OS X >versions all say "We have no plans for a Linux version"? It would >seem to be a pretty easy thing to do. While Mac OS X has a UNIX layer under the hood, the GUI is where it is less than compatible. While X-Windows is available, and so can run UNIX GUI applications, most Mac users don't even have it installed. Most Mac applications are written for the native Mac OS X GUI. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Aug 11 19:39:55 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:39:55 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:13:55 CDT." <46BE2693.9000203@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200708120039.l7C0dtW3006917@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doc Shipley wrote: ... >including the OS itself, you have NO idea what they're actually running >till you've done some expensive discovery. The trick is to charge for service, not for a license. I'm only interested in open software, not free software. I'm happy to pay for open software. That way I can fix it when it's broken or breaks. I make a lot of money every year on linux, but I do it by offering a service, not by locking up the rights to my code. RMS's idea is about access to the source code. -brad From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 11 19:50:04 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:50:04 -0400 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers In-Reply-To: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> References: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> Message-ID: <200708112050.04407.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 11 August 2007 17:26, Marvin Johnston wrote: > They are not only wrong, but rather vague! But for their list of the > top 5 collectible computers, take a look at: I don't see how you can say that they're wrong. It's *CNET*s top 5. Just like Bill or Joe's Top 5. Ie, the 5 machines that the people at CNET who wrote the story thought were most collectable. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 11 20:03:26 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:03:26 -0600 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers In-Reply-To: <200708112050.04407.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <46BE29A3.8D953F55@west.net> <200708112050.04407.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46BE5C5E.4040809@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I don't see how you can say that they're wrong. It's *CNET*s top 5. > Just like Bill or Joe's Top 5. Ie, the 5 machines that the people at > CNET who wrote the story thought were most collectable. Well Vintage Computer Market Place has a few computers just posted that I find are more collectable - Soviet clones. > Pat From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 11 20:05:33 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:05:33 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708112113.RAA03959@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200708112038.l7BKcKVl011766@hosting.monisys.ca> <200708112113.RAA03959@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: At 4:20 PM -0400 8/11/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >I'd be suprised if people like Adobe wouldn't all of a sudden have a >large Linux market share if they would just release their various >software with a Linux version. At this time they're one of the main reasons I'm still running on a Mac. Though Apple keeps improving on iLife, which gives me another reason to stay. At this point Eudora is probably the key thing keeping me on the Mac, though as it has been discontinued, how much longer I'll use it is up in the air. At 5:05 PM -0400 8/11/07, der Mouse wrote: >It occurs to me that this phrasing may to an extent be putting cause >and effect the wrong way around: that the sort of person who is >unwilling to pay for software will (tend to) gravitate to Linux, rather >than people feeling (or tending to feel) that if it's for Linux it >therefore should be free. Interesting point, it also helps explain why I've gravitated away from Linux. I have no problem paying for software, though if I can find a freeware solution that will do what I need I'm often happy. I find the attitude of the Linux "community" to be more than a little irritating at times. At 3:16 PM -0700 8/11/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Is that another Apple/Microsoft difference? Microsoft developers >spend a lot of money (i.e. paying for MSDN privleges) keeping up to >date on Windows developments. To the best of my knowledge the Apple Developer program is no longer as affordable as it used to be. I dropped out after I got married as they *significantly* raised the price about that time. Besides now I'm no longer developing software for the Mac, except for the occasional Perl script for personal use. At 5:38 PM -0400 8/11/07, William Donzelli wrote: >Just an observation: > >> 1) The GPL scares a lot of vendors spitless. Can't say as I blame them. > > 2) Linux is, almost by definition, a rolling beta. Sadly true, however, this is not as bad as it used to be if you're running an Enterprise version. > > 3) Linux users and admins are the world's worst customers. > >These three reasons are pretty much why the mainframe folks can laugh >justifiably at the Linux crowd. Depends on where you work. I know some *VERY* sharp Linux admin's, and the users aren't that bad. Having said that, I wouldn't want to be a vendor supporting the company that I work for. > > 4) This last will get me flamed, but it's a fact; Linux is a miserable >> excuse for a desktop OS, for all the above reasons. Its sole >> justification is that it beats hell out of Windows. > >And these days, it is getting hard to even say "beats the hell out >of". These are not the days of Windows 95 anymore - it is pretty >stable and easy to use. And the Windows GUI was never all that bad >after 2.0 (yes, TWO) - it sure "beats the hell out of" some of the >nightmares seen in the Unix world. > >Cripes - I see another Windows/Linux war coming up on the list. I >better fold up camp... I think people need to remember that you should use the right OS for the right job. At work, I am responsible for a collection of Solaris, Windows 2003, and yes, Linux boxes (I also have to deal with HP-UX and AIX on occasion). My laptop runs Windows, but almost all of my work is done on Linux. As far as I'm concerned my Desktop is my VNC session to my Linux workstation, not Windows (I view it as a semi-intelligent terminal). Right now I only have one Linux box at home, it is a very nice Core 2 Duo system built for Windows gaming, that I've setup to dual boot Ubuntu. I must confess I like most of what I've seen in Ubuntu, and the upgrade I did a while back to the latest version went very smoothly. Still that system is rarely turned on, and most of my time at home is spent either on Mac OS X, or OpenVMS. For me, switching to Mac OS X meant I no longer needed a Linux box running all the time, as I can do most of what I need now on the Mac. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Aug 11 22:46:14 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:46:14 -0400 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers In-Reply-To: <01f901c7dc69$ca001bb0$6e01a8c0@NFORCE4> References: <01f901c7dc69$ca001bb0$6e01a8c0@NFORCE4> Message-ID: <46BE8286.7030706@atarimuseum.com> CNet is notorious for skimming materials from sites without permission or credit, they've done it to my site numerous times. Curt Erik Klein wrote: > Nice. > > They used two images from my site and didn't even have the courtesy to ask. > . . > > /sigh > > Of course, the list is crap too. . . but who asked me. :) > > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > The Vintage Computer Forum > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 2:27 PM > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: CNET Collectible Computers > > > They are not only wrong, but rather vague! But for their list of the top 5 > collectible computers, take a look at: > > http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28760.html?tag=nl.e415 > > For those of you using real browsers that can't view the video, they are: > > 1 - Apple I > 2 - Altair > 3 - Apple Lisa > 4 - Xerox Alto > 5 - Commodore 64 > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 23:25:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 00:25:39 -0400 Subject: Vintage Cisco Router code In-Reply-To: <46BCEEB2.1050300@tdh.com> References: <46BCEEB2.1050300@tdh.com> Message-ID: On 8/10/07, Michael Lee wrote: > I've got myself a Cisco AGS+ router (1986-1995) and I'm looking for OLD > code versions for it. I got it running Cisco GS/IOS 9.x, but want to > see some early revisions. I believe this particular model can go up to > IOS11.x, but that isn't my goal. I'd like to have examples of "what was." I have an AGS+ as well, but due to the fact that it didn't come with any cables, I haven't done anything more with it than boot it up and fiddle on the console. _My_ take on things is that I'd rather load up a "useful" version of IOS than a particular historical version, but I can see how it could be interesting to fiddle with older software on a box that old, given that, much like a VAX-11/750, an AGS+ router sucks so much power compared to "modern" equivalents that you'd only run one to play on, rather than as a 24/7 production box. I wouldn't mind being kept in the loop for any answers to these sorts of queries. I have visions of being able to do something useful with my AGS+... I picked it up about 9 years ago as a box to learn more about IOS with, but without cables, never got to use it for that (I did learn IOS on other hardware, but that's an off-topic story ;-) So count me interested in AGS+ firmware sets, but unable to provide much at the moment. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 23:53:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 00:53:42 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: <200708070049.l770mrx1016764@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <46B791F2.2010800@e-bbes.com> <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> <200708070049.l770mrx1016764@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: On 8/6/07, Rick Murphy wrote: > XT2190s (RD54s) aren't cheap, they're noisy as hell, and > aren't very big. How "not cheap" are they these days? They are large enough for VMS 6.0 - I've done it. OTOH, there wasn't any room left for anything else, and I did have to trim off a few things to make it all fit, but it does come up and boot on my rather-stock uVAX-II. By even semi-modern standards, though, I'd agree with you that 154MB just isn't that much room for later versions of VMS or Ultrix, but VMS 5.x and on down fit just fine, if that's what you want to run. > As several people have pointed out, you're far better off with non-DEC > storage controllers and devices. Agreed. I managed to locate a Qbus SCSI controller a while back, but I've had other DEC machines in the queue head of any MicroVAX work, so I haven't been able to put a system together yet. -ethan From marvin at west.net Sun Aug 12 00:15:13 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:15:13 -0700 Subject: CNET Collectible Computers Message-ID: <46BE9761.DA032FD9@west.net> > From: Patrick Finnegan > On Saturday 11 August 2007 17:26, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > They are not only wrong, but rather vague! But for their list of the > > top 5 collectible computers, take a look at: > > I don't see how you can say that they're wrong. It's *CNET*s top 5. > Just like Bill or Joe's Top 5. Ie, the 5 machines that the people at > CNET who wrote the story thought were most collectable. Actually, when I first wrote it, I had a smiley at the end. They are welcome to their ideas, but with nothing to indicate how they came up with these five and what *their* qualifications for making the list, the list is rather worthless. Much like the person who put an Apple IIe up for sale on Ebay at $5K or so. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 00:45:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:45:50 -0700 Subject: NEC FD 1035 3.5" Floppy jumpers? Message-ID: <46BE3C1E.3840.1B06B28E@cclist.sydex.com> Just dug a couple of these out of my hellbox. Old full-height 720K floppy drives. I can find a product description on bitsavers, but no jumper information. I can probably guess what most are, but I'd like to have some hardcopy info on file if possible. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 12 00:43:49 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:43:49 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? Message-ID: > While Mac OS X has a UNIX layer under the hood, the GUI is where it > is less than compatible. While X-Windows is available, and so can > run UNIX GUI applications, most Mac users don't even have it > installed. Most Mac applications are written for the native Mac OS X > GUI. While most UNIXes have X, X isn't necessary for UNIX. I have (and I know most people on the list probably also have) several Unices where X isn't included, one UNIX where X is optional (standard display is NeWS), and two Unices with something completely different. I will confess to happily running Linux and OS X, and Linux makes a darn good can opener for assorted disks &cet. The number of different UI toolkits (and desktop environment support libraries/etc) that you wind up installing is somewhat outrageous, especially when you consider that many of them seem to be pretty much copying the UI of Windows. From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Aug 12 04:52:15 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:52:15 +0100 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70708120252y7324c71epb3e20616a22e3359@mail.gmail.com> On 12/08/07, Scott Quinn wrote: > While most UNIXes have X, X isn't necessary for UNIX. I have (and I > know most people on the list probably also have) several Unices where X > isn't included, one UNIX where X is optional (standard display is > NeWS), and two Unices with something completely different. Waves hand.. For my part, I run windows 2000 on my desktop, being the latest MS offering I can stand. I have several machines running FreeBSD (which can run X, but don't) and which I new pretty much understand, albeit from a user/admin side. While I don't have any /computers/ running Linux, I can point at four devices on the LAN that run it embedded that I can get to a command line on, several not currently in use, and several more that I've not poked too hard at as they just work, and may or may not run linux underneath. I've never got to grips with the GPL .. I like the simplicity of the BSD licence which boils down to: I'm copyright holder, do what you like but you have to keep saying that. I've got two old Mac base units now, but nothing else. one day, when the tuits arrive, I'll get the bits(kb, mouse, monitor, etc) to fire them up. Rob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 06:00:59 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 04:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape Message-ID: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> My attempts to boot the MicroVax continue: After much digging around at the house, I finally found another TK50 cartridge. This one is in good condition. I cleaned my SCSI TK50 drive, and mounted the tape. It read fine, I was able to dd the contents (one ~70mb VMS data file, with header and trailer) off the tape and onto my PC. So far so good. I erased the tape, and tried to write the NetBSD boot.fs to it. dd if=boot.fs of=/dev/nst0 bs=512 And the drive whirred to life, shoeshining tape back and forth,but actually making progress through the media (it was accumulating on the take-up reel, anyway). So I let it run. Eventually it failed with an I/O error at a point where most of the tape was out of the cartridge. It took over an hour to get there, and only made it through one length of tape (no track change/reverse) Rewind, erase tape again. So, I tried just plain 'dd if=boot.fs of=/dev/nst0' without specifying the block size (although from what I've read, NetBSD wants a block size of 512 to boot) That shoeshined like crazy too, so I stopped it. Try again, with a block size of 16k (the same block size I used to read in the tape). Still no go, it still shoeshines, but not quite as much (barely). What do I need to do here? How long should it take to write two and a half megabytes of data to tape? Thanks! -Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Aug 12 06:35:20 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:35:20 +0100 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <200708120500.l7C4xQTj053606@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708120500.l7C4xQTj053606@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <41FB0A33-0B68-43D5-9ADE-CD9F975E4319@microspot.co.uk> > From: Patrick Finnegan > On Saturday 11 August 2007 17:55, Roger Holmes wrote: >> Anyway, do things like QuickTime, OpenGL and Quesa exist on Linux? > > QT: xine, mplayer. Both are way more compatible with more formats > than > Quicktime is. QT and Window Media Player don't come close to > supporting all the variants of just MPEG-4, that xine/mplayer do. I see. Thanks. > > OpenGL: It's called the same thing on MacOS, Windows, Linux, and every > other UNIX. There's lots of high-performance graphics work that gets > done on Linux boxes with nVidia cards. I understand that 'Open' in this context does not mean open source, just an open specification. Apple, Microsoft and presumably the Linux volunteers had to spend a lot of time writing their own versions. I also understand that Microsoft's version is getting left behind and may be axed at any time. Maybe I am out of date on this though as we don't currently have a windows versions of our 3D products, only the 2D ones. > > According to Quesa's website, "Quesa currently supports Mac OS 8/9, > Mac > OS X, Linux, and Windows." Yes I should have known that, sorry. > >> It would take me time I do not have (and human memory) to keep up >> with what is and is not in yet another operating system. Apple >> spends a lot of money keeping developers like me up to date with >> their developments, I presume nothing similar is done with Linux. >> What spare time I have is more enjoyably spent of classic cars and >> classic computers. > > I don't understand what to make of this. Basic OS API features > tend to > change slowly... and if you want to keep track of GUI or other random > library/toolkit updates, just pay general attention to the mailing > lists they have, download new versions as the come out, and see if > your > code still compiles against them. Speed is relative. If you have a million lines of code to keep up to date and sales revenues only allow you to employ yourself and one other programmer, then the speed of development is not sufficient to keep up with API, OS and processor changes AND add the features, which you need to stay competitive, to your programs. One of our programs, which was first issued soon after the first Macintosh shipped, has been rewritten from Pascal and assembler into C/C++, its basic drawing engine has been changed from using QuickDraw to using Quartz, the user interface has been partially rewritten to use Quartz/ Carbon and look like Aqua, but a lot more needs to be done. The printing side has been updated to use use the OS-X printing model rather than the OS1 to OS9 model. The clipboard handling has been changed many times and needs to be changed again to support PDF input rather than PICT vector format. Its been moved from 68K to PowerPC and now to Intel. Its been moved from development on Lisa to MPW on Mac, to CodeWarrior and now onto X-Code. Debugging has moved from 2 machine debugger to MacsBug to CodeWarrior's debugger to GDB under X- Code, and not always for the better. GDB under X-Code is still not as good as CodeWarrior, it fails to show some variables, cannot display dynamic arrays except as a hex memory dump and cannot single shot over some C++ constructors. Another program has been updated from using QuickDraw3D to using Quesa, from using PowerPC to Intel (with lots of endian problems), from using PowerPlant under CodeWarrior to using Cocoa under X-Code. Its been partially re-coded from C++ to Objective C. We've only re- issued two thirds of the program, dropping the less useful features until (if ever) we get the time to do the more exotic parts. Its been changed from the classic event handling system to Carbon events. Its been changed from using a single processor to using multiple processors in critical parts. From using resources and Resourcerer to using NIB files with Interface Builder (despite that, in my opinion, Interface Builder is still incomplete and that MacOS is still not as well documented as OS9). I could go on, and that's just two programs of all the ones we ship. > There's been some issues with newer versions of GCC breaking older > code, > but in general, if that happens, its because your code was written > poorly and not to the language specifications. It been moving TO GCC that is one of the problems. It does not allow temporary variables which need to be constructed, to then be passed as procedure parameters. Debugging of anything using templates is very confusing (presumably because the compiler does not output the correct source code references), displaying source code which has nothing at all to what its actually executing so that you have to look at the object code, which is Intel code which is another learning curve I need to master to add to my repertoire of a dozen or so machine codes. Any recommendations of a good book on the latest Intel processor instruction set? GCC does not even generate very efficient object code when optimisations are all turned on. > Worst case, you can just install whatever version of the libraries > your > app uses along with the app in some out of the way place, and ignore > changes to the system libraries, GUI, etc, pretty trivially. Rather difficult when the libraries are in PowerPC code and you're running on Intel, and when the libraries make OS calls which are no longer available. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Aug 12 06:40:19 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 07:40:19 -0400 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2007 04:00:59 PDT." <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708121140.l7CBeLvK021805@mwave.heeltoe.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >My attempts to boot the MicroVax continue: > ... >And the drive whirred to life, shoeshining tape back >and forth,but actually making progress through the >media (it was accumulating on the take-up reel, >anyway). So I let it run. Eventually it failed with an >I/O error at a point where most of the tape was out of >the cartridge. My notes for 2.10bsd say that tape 1 should look like this: File RecSize #Recs Content ---- ------- ----- ------- 0 512 41 tapeboot,tapeboot,boot 1 1024 28 mkfs 2 1024 27 restor 3 1024 26 icheck 4 10240 451 dump of root fs 5 10240 2277 tar of /usr without usr/src 6 10240 466 tar of /usr/src/{sys,include} Which means one way to do this is to write a shell script using the "non rewind device" (/dev/nst0) to write the proper files, each with dd and the proper block size. You can't just dd the entire thing in one go. And, if what you have is a "tape image", you need to break it into files first. (or, use a utiltity which knows about the tape image and will write the image back to the tape with the right block size) I'd start by just writing the boot file and see if that works. Here's the maketape.sh script from 2.11 #!/bin/sh # File Blocksize Content # 0 512 mtboot # 512 mtboot # 512 boot # 1 1024 disklabel # 2 1024 mkfs # 3 1024 restor # 4 1024 icheck # 5 10240 root.dump # 6 10240 file6.tar # 7 10240 file7.tar # 8 10240 file8.tar TAPE=nrst0 cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd of=/dev/nrst0 obs=512 dd if=disklabel of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 dd if=mkfs of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 dd if=restor of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 dd if=icheck of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 dd if=root.dump of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 dd if=file6.tar of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 dd if=file7.tar of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 dd if=file8.tar of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 -brad From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sun Aug 12 07:10:12 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:10:12 +0100 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> Message-ID: On 11 Aug 2007, at 18:29, John Foust wrote: > > The only hard part is the price tag. The tricked-out Mac Pro > on my wish list is about $6000 *before* adding the Adobe and Apple > software suites I desire. To be fair, you probably fancy a MacPro with EIGHT cores. I know I do!! From whom else could you get an 8-core desktop workstation? I doubt that it'd be very much cheaper! I remember bringing home my first SGI. It wasn't anything too amazing or collectable - an old Indigo that had been lingering in the CS department unused for some years. One of the postgrads had tried getting it fired up - I was an undergrad at the time - and I was visiting him in the lab when his supervisor came to chat to him abut something. I think my friend was a bit miffed that I offered fourty quid for it right under his nose!! When I got that workstation home I was *so* pleased with it. I wiped the dust off it with a damp cloth and stood back and admired it, then started taking it apart. (That old monkey curiosity, eh?) I was so impressed with how solid & well-made it was - each piece of FAR better quality than the commodity PC hardware I was familiar with (despite having paid ?115 for one of the first 56k PCI modems). When I open a Mac I feel the same sensation of quality workmanship that I do with old Unix workstations like SGIs & Suns. The screws in the base of iMacs are stainless steel allen bolts, and the mechanism of the lever which releases the side of my G5 is well-engineered, the panel fitting satisfyingly flush when you set it back in place. I don't feel Mac OS X to be entirely without flaws, but I do feel that Apple is continuing in a tradition of well-made Unix workstations, when those who needed computers were prepared to pay good money for them, and expected quality. Stroller. From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Aug 12 10:02:19 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:02:19 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II diagnostic tape? In-Reply-To: References: <46B791F2.2010800@e-bbes.com> <200708062234.l76MYcqM006671@onyx.spiritone.com> <200708070049.l770mrx1016764@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200708121502.l7CF2Jqe030884@mail.itm-inst.com> At 12:53 AM 8/12/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 8/6/07, Rick Murphy wrote: > > XT2190s (RD54s) aren't cheap, they're noisy as hell, and > > aren't very big. > >How "not cheap" are they these days? They are large enough for VMS >6.0 - I've done it. OTOH, there wasn't any room left for anything >else, and I did have to trim off a few things to make it all fit, but >it does come up and boot on my rather-stock uVAX-II. They fetch $300 or more per drive on eBay. >By even semi-modern standards, though, I'd agree with you that 154MB >just isn't that much room for later versions of VMS or Ultrix, but VMS >5.x and on down fit just fine, if that's what you want to run. Yup. When I had a uVAX here I used three RD54s with VMS 5.4 on the first drive. As long as you're careful it works OK. Putting the swap onto another drive helps remove some of the space crunch. One advantage of these drives is that they're pretty reliable, unlike RD53s. > > As several people have pointed out, you're far better off with non-DEC > > storage controllers and devices. > >Agreed. I managed to locate a Qbus SCSI controller a while back, but >I've had other DEC machines in the queue head of any MicroVAX work, so >I haven't been able to put a system together yet. I tried for a SCSI controller for a long time but wasn't willing to pay the price. I eventually gave away the VAXen and just moved to SIMH. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 11:16:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 09:16:07 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail>, Message-ID: <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2007 at 13:10, Stroller wrote: > When I got that workstation home I was *so* pleased with it. I wiped > the dust off it with a damp cloth and stood back and admired it, then > started taking it apart. (That old monkey curiosity, eh?) I was so > impressed with how solid & well-made it was - each piece of FAR > better quality than the commodity PC hardware I was familiar with > (despite having paid ?115 for one of the first 56k PCI modems). So shall it ever be, it seems. We used to joke about how poorly most S100 equipment was made (as compared to the Multibus stuff). At one time, there *were* high-quality PCs being produced for the commercial use market. Even some of the old Deskpros were pretty well constucted. I still use a 600MHz P3 as my mail server. Old HP commercial PCs are similarly well thougt out. There may still be such animals--but I haven't bought a new PC in years. But let's face it--today's consumer PCs by and large are designed for a year or two of operating life. They're essentially disposable items. People upgrade even when they don't have to--and sometimes the upgrade path is forced by software bloat (but I'm not going to climb onto that horse right now). If Apple wants to over-engineer their consumer products, then good for them. I predict that the trend won't last, however. Cheers, Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 12 11:16:42 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:16:42 -0600 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BF326A.5050505@e-bbes.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > My attempts to boot the MicroVax continue: > > After much digging around at the house, I finally > found another TK50 cartridge. This one is in good > condition. I cleaned my SCSI TK50 drive, and mounted > the tape. It read fine, I was able to dd the contents > (one ~70mb VMS data file, with header and trailer) off > the tape and onto my PC. So far so good. I erased the > tape, and tried to write the NetBSD boot.fs to it. > > dd if=boot.fs of=/dev/nst0 bs=512 > Which drive do you have ? (there are F or G variants), and which linux version are you using ? I thought the TK SCSI don't work on "standard" linux, as the return an error in the SCSI Inquiry command (it is too long) Cheers From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 12:03:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <46BF326A.5050505@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <321922.86183.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Which drive do you have ? (there are F or G > variants), According to the back of the enclosure - TK50Z-GA. So it's a G then? The tape mechanism is an E4. > and which linux version are you using ? I thought > the TK SCSI don't work > on "standard" linux, as the return an error in the > SCSI Inquiry command > (it is too long) Debian Linux. It certainally seems like it works, although as it discovers the devices on bootup, neither the SCSI controller nor the Linux kernel can read anything off the drive as far as manufacturer or model. It manages to figure out that it's a tape drive though, because I can use it via /dev/nst0, and mt works fine with it. I was also able to read a tape just fine. -Ian From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 12 12:04:24 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:04:24 -0700 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BF3D98.2050504@msm.umr.edu> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >My attempts to boot the MicroVax continue: > > > Ian, If you can turn up the complaint logging level of the scsi driver you have running the drive, try to write a 1 or 2 block file, and grab the error message bytes from the kernel, assuming that is logged. You may not have a device which returns much. If there is a TK50 oem manual online somewhere that has the messages that would help. the shoeshining can be because the drive is not able to stream from the data being sent from your system, or it can be continuous error retries. A lot of drivers will try so many times, then rewind tape devices. The rewind may not be coded in Linux if you are using the norewind on close device. Also if your linux box has more than the tape on the scsi controller, you may be overwhelmed by log entries and have problems finding the tape traffic. Jim From brian at quarterbyte.com Sun Aug 12 12:10:24 2007 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:10:24 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN T-shirt Message-ID: <46BEDC90.22914.26F1AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> I was getting on a bus in Playa del Carmen, Mexico yesterday and ran into a guy wearing a T-shirt whose decoration was a bunch of FORTRAN code. The wearer said he didn't know its background or what it meant or came from. Maybe it was something cooked up by a graphic artist who just thought it looked cool, but if it was from a real system, it's something I didn't recognize. It was some sort of interactive system. Here is what it looked like, structurally, more or less, from memory. *READY A = 3+3 *READY A = 6 *READY *READY PROGRAM TEST *READY DIMENSION B(6) *READY READ(3,10) (B(I),I = 1,6) *READY 10 FORMAT(6F10.5) *READY DO 20 I = 1, 20 . . (and so on --- about 30 lines of ordinary fortran code here) . *READY 20 CONTINUE *READY GOAT 2 STATEMENT NOT IN *READY GOTO 2 *READY 30 CALL XPLOT(B,10) *READY STOP74 *READY END Each line started with *READY, except for the blank line, the line with the result 6 and the line with STATEMENT NOT IN. The font looked like standard ASR33 teletype. Does this format look familiar to anyone? The bit about prompting for each line with *READY is something I've never seen. It also appeared to do some preliminary syntax checking, as it flagged the line "GOAT 2" with an error message (which was itself grammatically incomplete). Any recollections on this one? Brian From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 12 12:14:19 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:14:19 -0600 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BF3FEB.5070708@e-bbes.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > My attempts to boot the MicroVax continue: > > After much digging around at the house, I finally > found another TK50 cartridge. This one is in good > condition. I cleaned my SCSI TK50 drive, and mounted > the tape. It read fine, I was able to dd the contents > (one ~70mb VMS data file, with header and trailer) off > the tape and onto my PC. So far so good. I erased the > tape, and tried to write the NetBSD boot.fs to it. > > dd if=boot.fs of=/dev/nst0 bs=512 Another advice: get Eric Smith's tapecopy program, and check, if the block sizes on tape are really the ones you thought you are writing. Helped me a lot in the past. Cheers From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 12:15:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:15:56 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <200708111637.l7BGbcVK016396@floodgap.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> Message-ID: At 1:10 PM +0100 8/12/07, Stroller wrote: >To be fair, you probably fancy a MacPro with EIGHT cores. I know I do!! Ditto, though I will probably go for a 2 dual core system rather than the dual quad core when the time comes. That $1500 price jump is a bit hard to stomach, and even a 4-core system will blow my current dual 2Ghz G5 tower away. Besides I'll need a nice chunk of change to beef up the RAM. >From whom else could you get an 8-core desktop workstation? >I doubt that it'd be very much cheaper! I don't know what a 8-core desktop from anyone else would cost (I'm not even sure anyone offers something like it), however, I do know that a laptop from Dell comperable to the top of the line Mac Book Pro was about $600US more last November/December when I spec'd them out for someone. >When I open a Mac I feel the same sensation of quality workmanship >that I do with old Unix workstations like SGIs & Suns. The screws in >the base of iMacs I feel it is actually higher at least on the Pro systems than on some of the more modern Sun hardware I've seen. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 12:30:53 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:30:53 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail>, <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 9:16 AM -0700 8/12/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >But let's face it--today's consumer PCs by and large are designed for >a year or two of operating life. They're essentially disposable >items. People upgrade even when they don't have to--and sometimes >the upgrade path is forced by software bloat (but I'm not going to >climb onto that horse right now). > >If Apple wants to over-engineer their consumer products, then good >for them. I predict that the trend won't last, however. Apple computers aren't throw away disposable items to most users. Even 6 years later they can still have value (just price something like a clamshell iBook). I think you'll find that the average Mac users uses their systems for a longer period of time than the average PC user. Shoot I just finally retired the PowerMac 8500/180 I bought over 10 years ago this year (my G4/450 was retired nearly 4 years ago). The build quality is part of what makes the Mac the computer that it is. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 12 12:44:27 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:44:27 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005601c7dd08$6e1a9060$e673a618@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Can someone tell me what this means? > Apple computers aren't throw away disposable items to most users. > Even 6 years later they can still have value (just price something > like a clamshell iBook). I think you'll find that the average Mac > users uses their systems for a longer period of time than the average > PC user. Shoot I just finally retired the PowerMac 8500/180 I bought > over 10 years ago this year (my G4/450 was retired nearly 4 years > ago). > > The build quality is part of what makes the Mac the computer that it is. > > Zane > I find people with newer Macs are upgrading much faster then people who used the pre OSX machines, and build quality these days is not much better then a DELL or other mass produced x86. Out of curiosity why did you keep the 8500/180 4 years longer then the G4/450? I still have my 8500 running in my room (g3-400, 704MB of RAM) because it runs OS 7.x apps and hardware very fast. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 12:53:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:53:19 -0400 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <46BE0DF5.9070908@gmail.com>, <46BDADEF.4041.18DB5067@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <44D4CF50-6F29-453C-A193-C607AC157A50@neurotica.com> On Aug 11, 2007, at 8:31 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > While Mac OS X has a UNIX layer under the hood, the GUI is where it > is less than compatible. While X-Windows is available, and so can > run UNIX GUI applications, most Mac users don't even have it > installed. That amazes me...at any one time I've got a half dozen X windows open. I guess not everyone who has a Mac uses it as a "high-end UNIX workstation", though pretty much everyone I know does. OS X has been my primary desktop platform for about five years now. Before that, I've always had a modern (i.e., not x86...DEC, Sun, then SGI) UNIX workstation on my desk since X10R4 (yes X TEN release four) was current. OS X (with X11) was easily good enough *as a UNIX workstation* to replace my IRIX machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sun Aug 12 13:07:21 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:07:21 +0200 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/12/07 7:30 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think you'll find that the average Mac users uses their systems for a longer > period of time than the average PC user. Shoot I just finally retired the > PowerMac 8500/180 I bought over 10 years ago this year (my G4/450 was retired > nearly 4 years ago). Two to three years, in my case. However, they're not retired after that: they trickle down to an ever growing group of family and friends who rely on hardware supplied by me for their daily computing tasks. Of course, I am always quite clear about them being on loan: they stay mine and if they're deemed unwanted, I want them back. I only ever sold one, a 500 MHz iBook, in order to buy the faster (900 MHz) version of the exact same model. ,xtG .tsooJ -- A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems. - Paul Erdos -- Joost van de Griek From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 12 13:19:22 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:19:22 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN T-shirt References: <46BEDC90.22914.26F1AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <46BF4F29.CE8A310E@cs.ubc.ca> Brian Knittel wrote: > > I was getting on a bus in Playa del Carmen, Mexico yesterday > and ran into a guy wearing a T-shirt whose decoration was > a bunch of FORTRAN code. The wearer said he didn't know its > background or what it meant or came from. > ... > > Does this format look familiar to anyone? The bit about > prompting for each line with *READY is something I've > never seen. It also appeared to do some preliminary syntax > checking, as it flagged the line "GOAT 2" with an error message > (which was itself grammatically incomplete). > > Any recollections on this one? But did you offer to buy the T-shirt off his back right there and then? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 13:25:42 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:25:42 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <005601c7dd08$6e1a9060$e673a618@game> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> <005601c7dd08$6e1a9060$e673a618@game> Message-ID: At 1:44 PM -0400 8/12/07, Teo Zenios wrote: >Out of curiosity why did you keep the 8500/180 4 years longer then the >G4/450? I still have my 8500 running in my room (g3-400, 704MB of RAM) >because it runs OS 7.x apps and hardware very fast. Hardware and software. I bought a high end sound board with the understanding I'd be able to move it to the G4/450 when I retired it from being my main system. Nice theory, but it didn't work to well in reality, plus I was unable to move the copy of Bias Peak that was on the 8500/180. The crazy thing is the G4 has been sitting unused under my desk for 4 years, I really need to put it into storage. I still use my PowerBook 540c occasionally. The 540c was purchased used to replace a 520c with a dead backlight. The 520c was purchased new and was my first Mac. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 13:36:51 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:36:51 -0700 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: <005601c7dd08$6e1a9060$e673a618@game> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail> <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> <005601c7dd08$6e1a9060$e673a618@game> Message-ID: At 1:44 PM -0400 8/12/07, Teo Zenios wrote: >I find people with newer Macs are upgrading much faster then people who used >the pre OSX machines, and build quality these days is not much better then a >DELL or other mass produced x86. Don't ask why I split up my replies to this message. I goofed. I suspect you might find that depends on the type of people using them, and the type of Mac they buy. If you buy a low-end system you'll need to replace it more often than a high-end system. My G5 2x2 was top of the line when I bought it nearly 4 years ago. I really hope to get two more years use out of it, and as long as it doesn't die, I think I can do it. With my G4/450 (I purchased the middle range of the very first G4 towers released) I was feeling the need for a new system when it was only a couple years old. Same with my 8500/180. With my G5, I still don't feel the need for a new system. It really helps that I've been able to easily expand the disk space and RAM. It started out with 512MB and now has 5.5GB RAM, and a 160GB HD, but now has a 300GB and 750GB HD. I rarely feel like I'm taxing the CPU, and since I added the last 2GB RAM, I have little problems with RAM. This isn't to say I wouldn't like a nice Mac Pro, as I would like to be able to have one system running my Mac, Unix and Windows applications all at the same time. However, I have such a limited need for Windows, that doesn't weigh to heavily. Besides I upgraded my PC about a year ago to be able to better run one game. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bear at typewritten.org Sun Aug 12 13:46:31 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:46:31 -0700 Subject: wtb: Micronics M54Pe References: <3D180E9F-8A1A-4A0C-ADF4-006886B005B7@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <2FCEA11F-4D86-44B1-BEB3-600844620D02@typewritten.org> On the off chance somebody has an M54Pe stashed somewhere, I'm looking for one. Contact me off list, please? This is a PCI/EISA, full-AT dual Pentium mainboard. Some models have PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports; I'd prefer one without but will consider either. Thanks! ok bear From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 13:57:17 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:57:17 +0100 Subject: FTGH: Sun ELC motherboards, odd k/bs, misc cables, portable terminal - UK Message-ID: Hi cctalkers, The following have to go, within ~14days or they get binned. 4 x Sun ELC motherboards. 3 of these are complete with socket board (so form a complete headless Sun machine if you add SCSI disk and run them from a PC PSU - they have stub cables to wire the PSU to), the third (which has no RAM) isn't, so is only good for spares or upgrading an SLC. There are 10base2 AUIs with all of them. Post on these in the UK will probably be ~?2. 1 x k/b marked "MICROCOLOUR Graphics" in top right corner. It has VT220 layout, but the connector is a DE9 with only 5 pins fitted. Brand new, still in wrapper. On the base is a sticker "part no: EK000ZH01, model no: M2220D". UK post probably ~?4. 1 x Liberty "VT220 style" k/b, suitable for the Liberty Freedom One terminals I gave away on this list last year. RJ11 plug, could work on other terminals as well? Brand new in original box. Again, post about ?4ish. Also, one unboxed but good condition used one. 2 x LK411 (VT510) terminal k/b. VT220 style but with a PS/2 connector. Post probably ?4ish each. 1 x k/b for Falco 220 (?) VT220-clone. Ade Vickers may still have the terminal this belongs to, if you fancy it. Postage ?4-ish. 4 x BA35X PSUs for BA356 disk arrays. Standard IEC mains connector, marked 100-240V 50/60Hz so OK anywhere. 3 are grey/green, one is blue. Postage probably ?4 each. And a load of odd cables (all new in mfr's bags), post ~?2ea: 1 x Selectronix "Xtreme" SEL-2276-0100, 2 HD50 females to what looks like an HD100? Male. 4 x Cisco Systems "Cable pair SMB to BNC - female" (3 cables per bag, 4 bags in total) 2 x 15-pin D to what looks like Cisco serial, labelled "CAB X21 MT, 10 METRES". 3 x 15-pin D to 44-pin 3-row D, labelled "BAY 7224 8 METRES" 1 x DB25 M to DE9 F, labelled "38YCN00001SDY 23/01 CTL 83443" oh, and 1 x GR Electronics "Pocket VDU" portable terminal. (Rusty) DB25 F, 2-pos slide switch and 10-way DIP sw on rear. Unit is about 10" tall, about 7" wide @ widest, and about 1.5" high. 2-line LCD. Please mail if you want any. Ed. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 14:37:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN T-shirt In-Reply-To: <46BEDC90.22914.26F1AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <46BEDC90.22914.26F1AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <46BEFF05.6988.1E000BB3@cclist.sydex.com> The source is easy to recognize--and I'm surprised that more folks didn't recognize it--IBM QUICKTRAN. It took quite a bit of digging just to find a reference on the web, however: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/issue_pdf/frontmatter_pdf/149/3683.pdf The article (page 497) appears to be the source of your T-shirt. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 14:54:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:54:21 -0700 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? Message-ID: I'm trying to recover data from an old Conner CFS420A (420MB) Hard Drive for someone. http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/ata/cfs420a.html I've tried hooking it up to my two IDE-to-USB cables, I can't see it on my Mac when connected to either. I can see it on my WinXP system when connected to the older cable (which oddly enough doesn't like most HD's I've plugged into it). However, I don't see any sign of partitions. When I plugged it directly into the motherboard, the BIOS complained and seemed to indicate 0MB. Do modern PC's have a problem with really old HD's? I'm told that either Win95 or Win98 was on the drive. Will a HD report info about itself, even if it is dead? Thanks, Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 15:18:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:18:01 -0700 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46BF0889.9027.1E25370F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2007 at 12:54, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've tried hooking it up to my two IDE-to-USB cables, I can't see it > on my Mac when connected to either. I can see it on my WinXP system > when connected to the older cable (which oddly enough doesn't like > most HD's I've plugged into it). However, I don't see any sign of > partitions. I've got a couple of those drives and my PC's don't seem to have a problem with it. Make sure you're using a 40 conductor IDE cable, and not an 80 conductor one. Setting the transfer mode to PIO (Mode 0) might also help. Assuming the drive spins up, it should at least respond to an IDENTIFY command. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 12 15:27:48 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:27:48 -0500 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070812151631.082ed960@mail> At 02:54 PM 8/12/2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I'm trying to recover data from an old Conner CFS420A (420MB) Hard Drive for someone. >http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/ata/cfs420a.html >I've tried hooking it up to my two IDE-to-USB cables, I can't see it on my Mac when connected to either. I can see it on my WinXP system when connected to the older cable (which oddly enough doesn't like most HD's I've plugged into it). However, I don't see any sign of partitions. When I plugged it directly into the motherboard, the BIOS complained and seemed to indicate 0MB. Do modern PC's have a problem with really old HD's? I'm told that either Win95 or Win98 was on the drive. Will a HD report info about itself, even if it is dead? There's lots of possibilities, of course. The drive could be dead. I've used at least three IDE to USB/Firewire adapters and it seems each acts a little differently when it comes to older drives and older partitions, so don't expect all levels of reporting to come up fine. It does sound like you're having more luck when it's directly on the motherboard. Be sure the jumper on the drive is set to "master" when on an adapter. Don't declare it dead until you've cold-booted with everything powered-up; sometimes I've found they don't quite wake-up the way you'd hope. Next, there's the issue of what's really on the drive. If you think it's readable, examine what's there in terms of partitions. The partition types may tell you more. It might have DoubleSpace or any of that era's disk-expanders. It might have a backup safety utility like GoBack in place. Either are odd enough that any contemporary Mac or PC won't see a simple FAT or FAT32 partition, so they'll give up without any useful error message. There are a number of useful bootable CDs out there with collections of tools for examining and imaging drives. The rule that "Sometimes you only get one chance to read a drive" is always in my mind. Image it ASAP. 1996 is "really old"? :-) - John From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Aug 12 15:46:20 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:46:20 +0100 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70708121346y42159ccft6aaa7131ddb6ac9e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/08/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm trying to recover data from an old Conner CFS420A (420MB) Hard > Drive for someone. > http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/ata/cfs420a.html > > I've tried hooking it up to my two IDE-to-USB cables, I can't see it > on my Mac when connected to either. I can see it on my WinXP system > when connected to the older cable (which oddly enough doesn't like > most HD's I've plugged into it). However, I don't see any sign of > partitions. > I had a drive behave like this once. Rather than trying to get Windows to recognise it, I recovered most of the data using a prodct called R-Studio - looking at their website the software should identify and cope with pretty much anything, They've a downloadable demo so you can see if it will work for you.. I used it on a FreeBSD drive, via a USB-IDE adapter on a WInXP laptop, so a old Windows drive should be a doddle. Rob From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 12 16:15:52 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:15:52 -0500 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708121346y42159ccft6aaa7131ddb6ac9e@mail.gmail.co m> References: <2f806cd70708121346y42159ccft6aaa7131ddb6ac9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070812161337.07ecdc10@mail> At 03:46 PM 8/12/2007, Rob wrote: >I had a drive behave like this once. Rather than trying to get >Windows to recognise it, I recovered most of the data using a prodct >called R-Studio - looking at their website the >software should identify and cope with pretty much anything, They've >a downloadable demo so you can see if it will work for you.. I used >it on a FreeBSD drive, via a USB-IDE adapter on a WInXP laptop, so a >old Windows drive should be a doddle. Yes, I own R-Studio, too. It can work if and when the drive has fully "come alive" in terms of the IDE bus and/or USB/Fw adapter and the operating system's view of the device. - John From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 17:52:13 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:52:13 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/9/07, Liam Proven wrote: > Secondly, there is "was" > an existing UK retrocomputing event, although it's > not that regular. It's deceased. It is an ex-event. It is pining for the fjords. >From (fairly distant) memory, the guy who ran it did so once (2004) and the stalls were all done as free or very cheap to get exhibitors. It went very well. Come 2005, the stalls started costing, and a significant number of the stallholders failed to pay up. The organiser got (understandably) pissed off, and cancelled the 2006 one. I haven't heard any mention of there being a 2007 one. > I was at one of these - I don't remember now if it was '04 or '05. It > was good fun. Strong games emphasis, which is of little interest to > me, but a vast amount of fascinating hardware - all manner of 1980s > exotica and obscurities, plus stuff from the '50s, '60s and '70s. For > instance, as a child of the (computing) 1980s, I punched my first ever > punch card and I handled some core store for the first time in my > life. Several list members were there exhibiting. I was at both, and enjoyed them immensely. I'd like to see them return if any of the list members fancies it? ;) Oh, and btw - count me in. Yorkshire. Ed. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 12 18:02:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:02:33 -0500 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46BF9189.2030705@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've tried hooking it up to my two IDE-to-USB cables, I can't see it on > my Mac when connected to either. I can see it on my WinXP system when > connected to the older cable (which oddly enough doesn't like most HD's > I've plugged into it). However, I don't see any sign of partitions. What Chuck said. I have successfully connected IDE drives as small as 40MB to my Athlon 3200+ XP machine (vintage 2004) and they showed up just fine. If you're still having a problem, keep trying different cables, computers, and operating systems. > When I plugged it directly into the motherboard, the BIOS complained and > seemed to indicate 0MB. I'd try a different computer just to be safe. Usually drives show up as all or nothing, not "I'm here but 0 MB". -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 12 17:34:45 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: <46BF9189.2030705@oldskool.org> References: <46BF9189.2030705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200708122238.SAA00712@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> When I plugged it directly into the motherboard, the BIOS complained >> and seemed to indicate 0MB. > I'd try a different computer just to be safe. Usually drives show up > as all or nothing, not "I'm here but 0 MB". I've seen drives broken enough that they show up in NetBSD as 0 cyls, 0 heads, 0 sectors/track. (This actually produced a divide-by-zero fault in the kernel until I fixed the bug. That it took so long to get fixed is an indication of how common such bugginess is. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 12 19:08:39 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:08:39 +0100 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46BFA107.2070509@philpem.me.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've tried hooking it up to my two IDE-to-USB cables, I can't see it on > my Mac when connected to either. I can see it on my WinXP system when > connected to the older cable (which oddly enough doesn't like most HD's > I've plugged into it). However, I don't see any sign of partitions. The IDE-USB cables are probably expecting a drive that supports LBA... OTOH, the PC's IDE controller should be able to handle the drive, unless it's so old it doesn't support the ATA IDENTIFY command... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 19:21:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:21:28 -0700 Subject: Strange DC-style cartridge ID Message-ID: <46BF4198.12517.1F041965@cclist.sydex.com> I've dug out an old Adic tape drive and thought at first that it used standard DC-300 or DC-600 cartridges. But every time I put a cart in the unit, the tape would spin for a couple of seconds and then the error light and alarm would come on. Poking inside the cabinet, it's very obvious that the DC-600 type of cartridge has the correct form factor, but that this unit doesn not employ optical sensing of BOT/EOT, etc. There are no optical sensors at all. I'm not certain, but I don't even think a conductive foil sensor is used either. It appears that the tape must be preformatted with some sort of prerecorded pattern to identify the beginning of tape. Anyone have any idea of what kind of tape this thing takes? Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 12 20:03:56 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:03:56 -0400 Subject: Tandon TM502/Tandy 2000 problems Message-ID: All: I?ve been working for a while on resurrecting the hard drive system of my Tandy 2000. The short story is that I have two systems with TM502 hard drives, both of which failed after a few uses (both were donations to me earlier in the year) and were no longer recognized by the system. Running the format program from Tandy DOS (MSDOS 2.21) fails to recognize the drives. I jacked one into a MFM controller on an older PC, re-ran the low-level format and formatted it with DOS 6.22. I then verified that it booted. I moved it to the T2k, where it was not recognized again, but this time, I was able to run the formatting program and now it?s usable from DOS 2.21. So, the hardware is good and I guess running the low-level formatting program from the ROM (g=c800:5) reinvigorated the drive. Since it seems that the low-level formatting has gone south on these drives, is there a non-destructive low level formatting program that?s good for this? I vaguely remember Spinrite, but I no longer have a copy in my box-o?-disks. I don?t want to destructively format the second hard drive since it has lots of programs on it from the person that sent it to me and I?d like to recover them if possible. I even wonder if the remaining drive can be resurrected at this point with the data intact. Oh, for those interested, the Tandy controller happily uses an ST-225 (20.1mb) drive as an alternate. Thanks for any info. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From john at guntersville.net Sun Aug 12 20:16:14 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:16:14 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM502/Tandy 2000 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46BFB0DE.10107@guntersville.net> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?ve been working for a while on resurrecting the hard drive system of > my Tandy 2000. The short story is that I have two systems with TM502 hard > drives, both of which failed after a few uses (both were donations to me > earlier in the year) and were no longer recognized by the system. Running > the format program from Tandy DOS (MSDOS 2.21) fails to recognize the > drives. > > I jacked one into a MFM controller on an older PC, re-ran the low-level > format and formatted it with DOS 6.22. I then verified that it booted. I > moved it to the T2k, where it was not recognized again, but this time, I was > able to run the formatting program and now it?s usable from DOS 2.21. So, > the hardware is good and I guess running the low-level formatting program > from the ROM (g=c800:5) reinvigorated the drive. > > Since it seems that the low-level formatting has gone south on these > drives, is there a non-destructive low level formatting program that?s good > for this? I vaguely remember Spinrite, but I no longer have a copy in my > box-o?-disks. I don?t want to destructively format the second hard drive > since it has lots of programs on it from the person that sent it to me and > I?d like to recover them if possible. I even wonder if the remaining drive > can be resurrected at this point with the data intact. > > Oh, for those interested, the Tandy controller happily uses an ST-225 > (20.1mb) drive as an alternate. > > Thanks for any info. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > . > Spinrite is the only thing that I would trust with that. If it wont work then there is nothing that I know of that will do the job. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 12 23:23:54 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:23:54 -0700 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: <46BF0889.9027.1E25370F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BF0889.9027.1E25370F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 1:18 PM -0700 8/12/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I've got a couple of those drives and my PC's don't seem to have a >problem with it. Make sure you're using a 40 conductor IDE cable, >and not an 80 conductor one. Setting the transfer mode to PIO (Mode >0) might also help. > >Assuming the drive spins up, it should at least respond to an >IDENTIFY command. I suspect it was this simple. I dug out a 40 conductor cable vs. the 80 conductor one in my new box, and plugged it into my old PC (easier to plug the cable in, even with having to dig it out). Once the system came up it saw the drive right off, and I've copied it to a CD-R. My thanks to everyone that replied! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From river at zip.com.au Mon Aug 13 01:15:08 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:15:08 +1000 Subject: 68661 EPCI woes. Can anyone help? In-Reply-To: <200708121702.l7CH1AlA061012@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070813061505.B10DC8C1B@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, I've connected a 68661 EPCI (Enhanced Programmable Comms Interface) chip to an 8085A system. It is the "C" variant, so it requires the 5.0688Mhz Xtal. It's all connected right, and I checked with the CRO and it is being selected and the 5.0688Mhz TTL signal is accurate and clean. However, the terminal it connects to just gets garbage or sometimes doesn't show anything at all. I put a CRO on the Tx line and the signal is RS232 compliant and data is going out. I tried the terminal with a working system and it works fine. I think I may be programming the chip wrong. I assume, according to the literature, that I set up the Mode register for Internal clock x1 internal clock for async comms. I then program the necessary 4-bit code for the speed I want. However, the datasheet shows the speeds with x16 clock. So, I tried programming it with x16 internal clock, but still no luck. Also, the data sheet says when using async that you use the x1 clock - which I did originally - yet the sheet shows the speeds with x16 clock. I'm very confused. All I want is 2400bps, 7data, no parity, one stop bit async. Has anyone used the 68661? Seeyuzz River From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Aug 9 10:45:40 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:45:40 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes Newbury its at Newbury Racecourse about five miles from me. Power = Own substation Only used for races a dozen times year Indoor Facilities for 20,000+ Large Conference and exhibition spaces Buckets of Bandband More power sockets than a hackers bedroom Own train station. (London < an hour) Landing strip Helicopter pad Car parks Coach parks 300+ buses Short road and then dual carriageway to M4/A34 Junction (London Heathrow Airport 45 mins even if I'm not in a hurry!) Loadsa Local Hotels, Travelodge within five miles. (Empty at weekends when no racing) Wada-else-u-need? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: 09 August 2007 13:01 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: UK retro show thoughts I've tried to make a couple of points which seem to have sunk unnoticed. While you're all happily arguing about the comparative virtues of various models of generator, I have pointed out that there are already very large-scale computer shows happening in the UK on a regular basis: the commercial LAN parties. If a venue can handle a thousand plus PCs, it can handle a few hundred vintage computers. These places would seem to me to naturally be high on the list of candidate venues. I asked for commentary about the venue for the largest of these, Multiplay. http://www.multiplay.co.uk/ There is one this coming weekend. Perhaps someone in the area - Newbury - could pop over and check it out briefly and report back? Are listers even /aware/ that there are multiple such events every year in this country with literally *thousands* of gamers attending, the majority bringing their own hand-built high-end customised PCs to play on? The custom PC building fraternity is probably the biggest computer enthusiast scene or group in the world today. It's relevant to us. Highly relevant, I submit; their attendees could be some of ours, for a start, and their organizers could potentially tell or teach us a lot. Secondly, there is an existing UK retrocomputing event, although it's not that regular. It's CGE-UK. Here are a couple of reports from past ones: http://www.ukretro.co.uk/cge2004.htm http://www.consolepassion.co.uk/cge-show-report.htm http://www.acornelectron.co.uk/eug/revs/misc/r-cge.html I was at one of these - I don't remember now if it was '04 or '05. It was good fun. Strong games emphasis, which is of little interest to me, but a vast amount of fascinating hardware - all manner of 1980s exotica and obscurities, plus stuff from the '50s, '60s and '70s. For instance, as a child of the (computing) 1980s, I punched my first ever punch card and I handled some core store for the first time in my life. Several list members were there exhibiting. Care to stop debating generators and start making some constructive suggestions, folks? :?) For what it's worth, I was (somewhat peripherally) involved in the running of the 2005 World Science Fiction Convention in Glasgow. I know a lot of people involved in running SF cons and have some useful contacts from that field; I attend up to half a dozen such events a year. This may not sound terribly relevant, but the Worldcon is the largest amateur-run event of any kind in the world and it happens without fail every single year and it's been running for more than 60 years now. There is much we could potentially learn from them. They know how to put on a big event for hundreds or thousands of attendees with no professional help or involvement and a starting budget of zero or close to it. -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 * Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com * MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk * Skype: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Aug 9 10:57:15 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:57:15 +0100 Subject: UK VCF or equivalent Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023134@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> This is getting boring! American law stops at the twelve mile limit anyway. Unless somebody has a trademark registered in the UK then this whole thing is nonsense. If somebody wants to organize shall we say an 'Elderly Electronics Expo' in the UK then good. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: 09 August 2007 12:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK VCF or equivalent On 07/08/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 16:28 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Incidentally: > > > *IF* you put on an event of your own and choose to call it the > > "Vintage Computer Festival", *THEN* I will bury your event. Do what > > you like, but find your own name. > > This is why I wouldn't call it VCF or have anything to do with the US > VCFs in any case. The mere fact that someone has enough ego to go > "It's > *MY* name and if you use it I'll *crush* you, muahahahaha" puts me off > any further involvement. Actually, you have my pretty much complete agreement on that point. Saying "look, it's my name, I run a business, please talk to me about using it", fine, no problem. Saying "it's mine, you want to steal it, I will hunt you down" - well, that bespeaks some very poor things about the person making the statement. -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 * Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com * MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk * Skype: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 9 17:30:45 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:30:45 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6806@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6806@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <1186698645.9972.4.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-08-09 at 14:58 -0700, Billy Pettit wrote: > So we have 23 people interested, very few exhibitors and a large > geographic spread but with clusters in Yorkshire(5), Manchester(3) > and London(2 plus 2 nearby). > And a couple of us up in Scotland. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Aug 10 02:14:45 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:14:45 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> References: <0JMB00GJIKMP5H30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> , <46BAE048.7566.DE7FDB0@cclist.sydex.com> , <841149FE-AA5C-4A1F-8A78-23177A59A0F7@neurotica.com> <46BB4460.14205.F6EFE97@cclist.sydex.com> <5D62853F-15DE-48A3-A167-534BD82FB985@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1186730085.9972.15.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 02:29 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Please note that I've got a couple of programmers as well as an > > eraser--and a big pile of EPROMs. I use them. But I don't find it > > particularly convenient. > > Fair enough. :-) I've been dealing with them for a long time (as > you have) and it's just second nature to me; I don't really notice > the inconvenience. I've got a bit pile of various sizes of EPROM, mostly for storing audio samples in for various bits of (commercial and homebrew) musical equipment. I don't find running out of blank EPROMs and having to talk half an hour to erase them a particularly onerous task - it's time to walk away from the problem and make a cup of tea and a sandwich. It's too easy to get sucked into the "must get it done" frame of mind, which is surely akin to the infamous "get-home-itis" that pilots get. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 10 03:56:21 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:56:21 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023137@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I am now the owner of a DEC Rainbow 100 Plus. (10mb Hard Drive and all) Its just like the one I had on my desk at DECPark circa 1981 The good news is its got loads of software with it. The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is shot. The screen has mould between the tube and bonded on faceplate. No amount of standard adjustment will make it bright enough to read in normal lighting. So... I need: a) A replacement tube. or b) a Digital VR201-A , -B or -C or d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ Anybody knowing the whereabouts any of the above please contact me. Rod Smallwood From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Aug 10 04:42:27 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:42:27 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <46BC2C36.5030908@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200708020246.l722j6K5045809@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433AF745-BAE1-4D7E-9385-EDDB3CD5583D@microspot.co.uk> <03D74F10-0900-4146-8164-CD9AB7AA3256@microspot.co.uk> <46BC2C36.5030908@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1186738947.32409.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 10:13 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > * Although most of our big stuff is just too delicate to go shipping around > and hope for it to remain functional. Moving non-operational items is a lot > easier, though :-) Bring something mildly non-operational, maybe someone else can fix it. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 13 03:12:57 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:12:57 +0100 Subject: Burners - was newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <031d01c7db78$239b3080$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6805@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <200708101621.MAA18990@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <031d01c7db78$239b3080$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1186992777.15798.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 14:58 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > My oppinion on burners: Willem or Elnec. > > Willem is the classic home-made programmer by www.willem.org - has great > acceptance, works right and has a (not so much) update(d) software for DOS > and Windows. Since I don't see windows as an enemy, it works fine for me. > Only programs EPROMS/flash/etc but for the classic computer user seems to be > kind of enough. > There is a not-particularly-feature-complete Linux programmer too. I haven't found much documentation on how the willem programmer works - their site is a little short on details - otherwise I'd have worked on it some more. Gordon From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Thu Aug 9 11:24:52 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:24:52 -0700 Subject: Mystery tape drive In-Reply-To: <46BB391C.4080203@bitsavers.org> References: <46BB339E.2030202@bitsavers.org> <46BB391C.4080203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Looks very close to the SDS 910/920/930 tape drives shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/306060565/in/set-7215759439172 2530/ Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 8:56 AM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Mystery tape drive > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > Can anyone here identify the tape drives in this picture? > > > > Ampex TM-2 > > > > > > To be more specific, Ampex OEMed the transport to lots of > different computer companies. I'll have to do some more > digging to identify which company that particular > configuration is from. The manual control panel underneath > the transport looks like SDS, though the cabinet color is > wrong for anything pre-Sigma. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 9 18:33:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:33:53 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <0JMJ00AJ95DWSED4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:37:12 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5 Aug 2007 at 17:21, Allison wrote: > >> Works for me. The larger Eproms like 27128, 27256 and larger >> I have loads of from old PCs that were junked. A ready supply >> of fast and large (often CMOS) eproms make it easier to do that. >> Though I had to mod my Prommer to do parts larger than 27256 >> the code upgrade was easy. > >....but the OP had neither eraser nor programmer for the things--and >that was my point. Why bother using slow, obsolete parts when there >are better alternatives available? Two reasons, cost and availability. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck > From adamg at pobox.com Fri Aug 10 02:25:04 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:25:04 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 power jack? Message-ID: <20070810072504.GA85613@silme.pair.com> Ensor wrote: [regarding mini-DIN connectors] > I hate those connectors with a passion, they're so small that they're almost > impossible to solder up. And half the time you spend so long trying to > solder to the pins that you end up melting the buggers....gah! :-( IIRC, if the connector you're working on is plugged into a mating socket while you're soldering it, it tends to retain its shape better. -- Adam From bochannek at computerhistory.org Sat Aug 11 12:01:04 2007 From: bochannek at computerhistory.org (Alex Bochannek) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:01:04 -0700 Subject: Vintage Cisco Router code In-Reply-To: <46BD3DDC.5010305@bitsavers.org> (Al Kossow's message of "Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:41:00 -0700") References: <46BD3DDC.5010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow writes: >>> I've got myself a Cisco AGS+ router (1986-1995) and I'm looking for OLD >>> code versions for it. I got it running Cisco GS/IOS 9.x, but want to >>> see some early revisions. I believe this particular model can go up to >>> IOS11.x, but that isn't my goal. I'd like to have examples of "what was." >> >>The oldest I have are EPROMS with 8.2. They are also IGS, but I think >>they can work with the AGS. It has been so long I just do not remember I pretty certain that IGS and AGS EPROMs were not interchangeable since there were code differences, but they were also burnt to different size EPROMs, as far as I remember. I can look it up if someone needs to know for sure. >>- the GSs were going out of service when I was getting involved. I >>know people that were involved - maybe I can ask. >> >>I ought to just send all the chips (I have quite a few) to Al, if he >>is interested. Al? > > we're interested. another curator here at CHM supported AGS The 8.x versions we really liked in the TAC were 8.2(8) and 8.3(3). Those were pretty solid and this is what I would run if I needed an 8.x version. Alex. From schiller56 at verizon.net Sat Aug 11 12:37:31 2007 From: schiller56 at verizon.net (The Schillers) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:37:31 -0400 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46BD48B2.3020706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <016501c7dc3e$4c373cc0$2b01a8c0@DESKTOP> Hey, Goto http://xtronics.com/ for a cheap eprom programmer. Here's the exact link to there web page: http://secure.transtronics.com/EPROM%20Programmer.html Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 1:27 AM Subject: Re: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap > Billy Pettit wrote: > >> My only order ever to Unicorn was for some TTL parts back on 22nd of >> June. >> I tweaked them a month later and got a reply that parts were back >> ordered, >> would ship in a week or so. Last I heard from them. > > I have have had fair luck with them. The only snag I have had so far > is I got substituted chips; MB7124's instead of 74S472's. > >> What is your experience with Unicorn? Did they actually ship parts to >> you? >> Their prices are good, but I would pay a little more to get parts I need. >> Or at least an "out of stock" notice after 7 weeks of waiting. > > I have yet to place my big order for all the chips & sockets I need. Right > now I designing with in stock parts so hopefully I will not have back > ordered > parts. Other than Card-Edge connectors , 512x8 Prom & 16Kx4 static ram, > I can second source most of the parts from B.G. Micro.Jameco has the other > parts but I would use 32K x 8 ram when I build my memory card. > >> Billy > Ben Alias woodelf > > From cc at corti-net.de Mon Aug 13 04:42:02 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:42:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 100 v 96 (was: Tandon TM-100-4M curiosity In-Reply-To: <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> References: <46B82BCA.15005.356FAC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <1186534309.455.29.camel@elric> <46BADD74.27340.DDCF46A@cclist.sydex.com> <20070810123144.N62021@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >> at least I could >> perfectly read all my SORD M23 disks in a standard DSHD drive (with tracks >> 0-2 obviously missing at the beginning). The M23 disks are 100tpi SS MFM, >> the drives used are TEAC FD-50C. > All of the Sord disks that I've seen have been 96tpi. Hm, what SORD disks? There were modern SORDs like the M68K and the newer version of the M243 that had standard 5.25" drives, they were low profile desktop machines from the mid-80s. The SORD M23 is from 1982, the external FDD is a SORD FD-20 that contains two TEAC drives. I must admit that I had't tried to read *all* tracks, I had only read some random tracks across the disk with AnaDisk. I've just done a SCAN of the disk now. It starts with a difference of three tracks (track 0 is read with track ID 3 and so on) and finishes with a difference of six tracks (track 73, track ID 79). There are three areas where the drive sees some sectors of one track and some of the next track (e.g. at track 42 it sees sectors from track 46 and from track 47), partially with read errors. BTW the disks are single-sided, MFM, 16 sectors/track (1-16), 80 tracks, interleave 2:1. Christian From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Mon Aug 13 05:59:54 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:59:54 +0100 Subject: build quality of Macs & PCs. In-Reply-To: <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070811122339.081c4c28@mail>, <46BECFD7.12596.1D47BE6B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12 Aug 2007, at 17:16, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Aug 2007 at 13:10, Stroller wrote: > >> When I got that workstation home I was *so* pleased with it. I wiped >> the dust off it with a damp cloth and stood back and admired it, then >> started taking it apart. (That old monkey curiosity, eh?) I was so >> impressed with how solid & well-made it was - each piece of FAR >> better quality than the commodity PC hardware I was familiar with >> (despite having paid ?115 for one of the first 56k PCI modems). > ... > At one time, there *were* high-quality PCs being produced for the > commercial use market. Even some of the old Deskpros were pretty > well constucted. I still use a 600MHz P3 as my mail server. Indeed. I have used these for the same purpose the last 4 or 5 years. I was using a 400mhz but upgraded to a 700mhz one which a customer was throwing out; between them they have given me my highest Linux uptimes. The low-profile PIII Compaqs are _lovely_ - thought has obviously been put into their design; slotting drives in & out is very quick and easy and it is convenient to access the PCI card slots through the removable risers. > There may still be > such animals--but I haven't bought a new PC in years. I work on PCs for a living. I don't think I've come across any as nice as the Deskpros, but I guess that doesn't mean there aren't any in production. I've come across some which are nearly as good - I find the build quality of Dell desktops to be surprisingly adequate and a customer bought a Fujitsu perhaps 6 months ago which had a worthy design involving a hinged power supply. Having the drives on quickly removable rails is common on PCs aimed at the corporate market. The reason I didn't mention this in my previous post was that I hadn't seen those PCs when I got my SGI 6 or 7 years ago. Beige boxes built by the local PC shop - and using the nastiest components - seem to be much less common now than they were a decade ago and most of the PCs I see are branded and come from a factory which must produce hundreds or thousands of PCs each day. Many still use the cheapest and nastiest components - Packard Hell & eMachines spring to mind - but others (like Dell & the Fujitsu I mentioned; I think the most recent HP / Compaq I've seen was a model of perhaps 4 years ago, a Pentium 4) do start to approach the build-quality of days of yore; they seem to be manufactured with the corporate market in mind. > But let's face it--today's consumer PCs by and large are designed for > a year or two of operating life. They're essentially disposable > items. People upgrade even when they don't have to--and sometimes > the upgrade path is forced by software bloat (but I'm not going to > climb onto that horse right now). Indeed, this is true, although corporate shops don't seem so affected by this. They do still seem to budget for better quality PCs. > If Apple wants to over-engineer their consumer products, then good > for them. I predict that the trend won't last, however. Zane Healy has addressed this very well indeed, and I don't think I can add to his comments. Stroller. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 06:44:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:44:09 -0400 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <46BF326A.5050505@e-bbes.com> References: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46BF326A.5050505@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/07, e.stiebler wrote: > Which drive do you have ? (there are F or G variants), I have not worked with the TK50Z-G, only the -F, but AFAIK, the -F ROMs aren't really SCSI compliant. There is a 5380 on a MicroVAX2000, but something in the packets isn't quite kosher, and as such, you can *not* put a TK50Z-F on a SCSI chain with other targets. The TK50Z-G was supposed to, IIRC, remove those issues and work on other targets than just a MicroVAX2000. > and which linux version are you using ? I thought the TK SCSI don't work > on "standard" linux, as the return an error in the SCSI Inquiry command > (it is too long) Hmm... that would be interesting to see the logs for. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 07:24:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:24:24 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023137@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023137@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 8/10/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I am now the owner of a DEC Rainbow 100 Plus.... > The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is shot. > > So... > I need: > > a) A replacement tube. > > or > > b) a Digital VR201-A , -B or -C > > or > > d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ > > > Anybody knowing the whereabouts any of the above please contact me. You have another option... the video input to a VR201 is NTSC "composite video", also called RS-170. I see you are in the UK, so an NTSC monitor might not be as easy to find as a VR201, but will work if you have one handy. I made a DA15-RCA cable years ago to hook a VR201 to an Amiga 2000 that I used as a hardware test platform (so I didn't care about a lack of color). I have to admit that I haven't "gone the other way" and used a non-DEC monitor on a Rainbow, but there's no reason to expect it won't work. I recently saw my Amiga cable, but the VR201, unfortunately, fell off the workbench some years ago, and the tube bit the dust. I pitched the plastic housing and saved the analog board, IIRC. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 07:55:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:55:02 -0400 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <1EEA9598-4E80-4EE1-90B0-48B340F2539D@neurotica.com> On Aug 10, 2007, at 6:38 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Unicorn Electronics has 1702's still* listed for $4.99. > > --------------- > > My only order ever to Unicorn was for some TTL parts back on 22nd > of June. > I tweaked them a month later and got a reply that parts were back > ordered, > would ship in a week or so. Last I heard from them. > > What is your experience with Unicorn? Did they actually ship parts > to you? > Their prices are good, but I would pay a little more to get parts I > need. > Or at least an "out of stock" notice after 7 weeks of waiting. I've placed three orders with them; they all arrived when expected. The most recent was last winter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 10:10:13 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:10:13 -0700 Subject: 68661 EPCI woes. Can anyone help? In-Reply-To: <20070813061505.B10DC8C1B@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: >From: "river" > >Hi, > >I've connected a 68661 EPCI (Enhanced Programmable Comms Interface) chip to >an 8085A system. It is the "C" variant, so it requires the 5.0688Mhz Xtal. > >It's all connected right, and I checked with the CRO and it is being >selected and the 5.0688Mhz TTL signal is accurate and clean. > >However, the terminal it connects to just gets garbage or sometimes doesn't >show anything at all. I put a CRO on the Tx line and the signal is RS232 >compliant and data is going out. I tried the terminal with a working system >and it works fine. > >I think I may be programming the chip wrong. I assume, according to the >literature, that I set up the Mode register for Internal clock x1 internal >clock for async comms. I then program the necessary 4-bit code for the >speed >I want. However, the datasheet shows the speeds with x16 clock. So, I tried >programming it with x16 internal clock, but still no luck. Also, the data >sheet says when using async that you use the x1 clock - which I did >originally - yet the sheet shows the speeds with x16 clock. I'm very >confused. > >All I want is 2400bps, 7data, no parity, one stop bit async. > >Has anyone used the 68661? Hi For async you should be using X16 and the correct divide settings for x16. 1X is only for sync com. You need to compensate the divide when doing X16. It is different than 1X. If you have a scope, you can calculate what the rate is. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Aug 13 10:22:38 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:22:38 -0400 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:44:09 EDT." Message-ID: <200708131522.l7DFMcMR002695@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >The TK50Z-G was supposed to, IIRC, remove those issues and work on >other targets than just a MicroVAX2000. I have a TK50-GA right here which I have never powered on. I'm game to attach it to a linux box and try to write tape using the dd script... I'll try it later today and report back. -brad From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 13 10:57:45 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:57:45 -0500 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: References: <46BF0889.9027.1E25370F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070813083257.07eead80@mail> At 11:23 PM 8/12/2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I suspect it was this simple. I dug out a 40 conductor cable vs. the 80 conductor one in my new box, and plugged it into my old PC (easier to plug the cable in, even with having to dig it out). Once the system came up it saw the drive right off, and I've copied it to a CD-R. Hmm. And heaven knows how these cheap USB to IDE adapters handle the many permutations. Wikipedia has a pretty good IDE/ATA breakdown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Attachment Pin 34 tells whether it's a 40- or 80-conductor cable. I don't remember any male-to-female IDE cables in my junkbox. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Aug 13 11:07:30 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:07:30 -0400 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:44:09 EDT." Message-ID: <200708131607.l7DG7UJ1010255@mwave.heeltoe.com> I plugged my TK50Z-GA into a an ancient laptop (166mhz) running a linux 2.2 kernel and it worked as expected. The kernel saw the device and noticed it was a tape. The only writable media I have is "compactape-II", so caveat emptor. I was able to copy a 1mb file onto it with dd using block sizes of 512, 10240, 20480 and 32768. It did not seem to want to stream (possibly because of my slow machine) but the 32768 did a lot less rocking. It sure seems like it would build a bsd tape cleanly, but with a lot of rocking back and forth, or "shoeshining" (a phrase which makes me smile). I have some tk70's also, hence the media. I hoped to write a few tapes with the TK50Z-GA and the read them with a tk70 plugged into a qbus. I guess I should find some plain old compacttap somewhere. -brad From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 13 11:36:32 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:36:32 -0500 Subject: Mac Plus success - clean contacts! In-Reply-To: <200708130622.l7D6M8Qt069704@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708130622.l7D6M8Qt069704@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, another update on my Mac Plus - previously, I've had trouble with getting the +5V supply adjusted right, and noticed that reseating the power cable connectors helped. This time, I actually took some measurements. Looking from the solder pad on the far side of the power board, through the connector, the cable, and the connectors on the digital board, to the solder pad on the far side of that board, I saw anywhere from 1 to *5 Ohms* through that cable. No wonder it was not reliable! I'm astonished it ever ran long enough to get through the RAM checks! Pulled off both connectors, ran a VOM probe back and forth through each slot on both ends of the cable a few times. Got some 400-grit sandpaper and lightly sanded the pins on the board connectors, swabbed them off with Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol, then swabbed on a trace amount of silicone oil (in hopes that it'll be a while before I have to do this again). Resistance measurements, after reassembly, went down near enough 0 that I would not attempt to put a number on them other than << 0.2 Ohms. Pulled out all of the SIMMS, scrubbed their contacts with Q-tips and isopropyl, and re-installed. Reseated the CPU (Brainpower Accelerator daughterboard). Tuned the +5V supply back *down* a little, to about midway between where it would crowbar and where it wouldn't start (This looked on my ancient VOM to be around 4.95 V). System has been running solidly for several days now, through multiple power cycles and multiple extended play sessions. My 6-year-old is getting reacquainted with Dark Castle and Sim City. Hope this is useful; questions welcome! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 13 11:54:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:54:45 -0600 Subject: 68661 EPCI woes. Can anyone help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C08CD5.3090807@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > For async you should be using > X16 and the correct divide settings for x16. 1X is only for sync com. > You need to compensate the divide when doing X16. It is different > than 1X. > If you have a scope, you can calculate what the rate is. > Dwight I think the only time I have seen 1X async was with a 1200 baud cassette I/O. Ben alas woodelf. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 12:02:47 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <200708131607.l7DG7UJ1010255@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <595585.68435.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > It sure seems like it would build a bsd tape > cleanly, but with a lot of > rocking back and forth, or "shoeshining" (a phrase > which makes me smile). I have been messing with it today as well, and I was successful in finally getting the drive to write straight through. I did: mt -f /dev/nst0 drvbuffer 1 dd if=boot.fs of=/dev/nst0 By turning on buffering, it wrote cleanly. I can now boot the tape on the Vax (sorta) - I was able to get the boot loader to load, then it dies. But I think I have solved the "tape writing" part of this. -Ian From julian at jnt.me.uk Mon Aug 13 12:08:58 2007 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:08:58 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Yes Newbury its at Newbury Racecourse about five miles from me. > Power = Own substation > Only used for races a dozen times year > Indoor Facilities for 20,000+ > Large Conference and exhibition spaces > Buckets of Bandband > More power sockets than a hackers bedroom > Own train station. (London < an hour) > Landing strip > Helicopter pad > Car parks > Coach parks 300+ buses > Short road and then dual carriageway to M4/A34 Junction > (London Heathrow Airport 45 mins even if I'm not in a hurry!) > Loadsa Local Hotels, Travelodge within five miles. > (Empty at weekends when no racing) > > Wada-else-u-need? > > Somewhere affordable? And walking distance from my house would be nice... ;-) But seriously, finding a location shouldn't be too difficult - I'd have thought most universities, hospitals, sports halls/arenas etc are likely to have suitable facilities for a first attempt and power requirements have a prerequisite of understanding how many people are likely to turn up with kit to demo/exhibit... So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can people bring? No point stressing over space, power and helipads if there are only a dozen people likely to exhibit with 'smaller' systems. Julian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 13 12:14:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:14:44 -0600 Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <016501c7dc3e$4c373cc0$2b01a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6810@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46BD48B2.3020706@jetnet.ab.ca> <016501c7dc3e$4c373cc0$2b01a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <46C09184.1000502@jetnet.ab.ca> The Schillers wrote: > Hey, > Goto http://xtronics.com/ for a cheap eprom programmer. > Here's the exact link to there web page: Well I plan to buy a DOS lap top and use it a dumb terminal. If I do plan to buy a EPROM PROGRAMMER; it would need DOS software and Parallel port interface? My current option is to re-design my cpu design to use 2816's (250ns) rather than 74S742's and have it run a little slower than I like. Ben alias Woodelf PS. the lowest cost burner I have seen was about $79.95 but you need to supply your own 10 volt wall wart. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 12:13:58 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:13:58 -0700 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <200708121140.l7CBeLvK021805@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <983885.40785.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200708121140.l7CBeLvK021805@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708131013i612e3642i8ac75077ae0e2cd1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/12/07, Brad Parker wrote: > > Here's the maketape.sh script from 2.11 > > #!/bin/sh > > # File Blocksize Content > # 0 512 mtboot > # 512 mtboot > # 512 boot > # 1 1024 disklabel > # 2 1024 mkfs > # 3 1024 restor > # 4 1024 icheck > # 5 10240 root.dump > # 6 10240 file6.tar > # 7 10240 file7.tar > # 8 10240 file8.tar > > TAPE=nrst0 > > cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd of=/dev/nrst0 obs=512 > dd if=disklabel of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 > dd if=mkfs of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 > dd if=restor of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 > dd if=icheck of=/dev/nrst0 obs=1024 > dd if=root.dump of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 > dd if=file6.tar of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 > dd if=file7.tar of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 > dd if=file8.tar of=/dev/nrst0 obs=10240 > > -brad > I believe that script will not actually work in practice to create a bootable 2.11BSD tape without inserting padding to 512 byte boundaries after the mtboot files. The mtboot files here are only 490 bytes. If you use the maketape program found there it takes care of padding to block boundaries. http://www.tribug.org/pub/tuhs/PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/ From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 12:17:41 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:17:41 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708131017i1ba7d7bciff9d069553cd8bc6@mail.gmail.com> On 12/08/07, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 8/9/07, Liam Proven wrote: > > > Secondly, there is > > "was" > > > an existing UK retrocomputing event, although it's > > not that regular. > > It's deceased. It is an ex-event. It is pining for the fjords. Oh dear. I didn't know that. > >From (fairly distant) memory, the guy who ran it did so once (2004) > and the stalls were all done as free or very cheap to get exhibitors. > It went very well. Come 2005, the stalls started costing, and a > significant number of the stallholders failed to pay up. The organiser > got (understandably) pissed off, and cancelled the 2006 one. I haven't > heard any mention of there being a 2007 one. I was a little surprised at the number of people selling stuff at the one I went to. I really ought to clear out my attic and eBay off some of the 1980s 8-bit clutter in there myself! > I was at both, and enjoyed them immensely. I'd like to see them return > if any of the list members fancies it? ;) Very much so! > Oh, and btw - count me in. Yorkshire. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 13 12:20:43 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:20:43 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <200708131707.l7DH6MSS080708@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708131707.l7DH6MSS080708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:07 -0500 8/13/07, Rod wrote: > I am now the owner of a DEC Rainbow 100 Plus. (10mb Hard Drive and >all) Congratulations! >The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is shot. >The screen has mould between the tube and bonded on faceplate. Just to be sure, you have checked and it's not the anti-glare coating causing the problem? I remember multiple tales of dirty screens causing dim monitors, etc.... I do have a VR-201, but a) it's in Texas, and b) it's intended for my Rainbow. Hopefully there will be more useful info elsewhere. > d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ That still leaves you seeking an NTSC-rate color monitor, though, such as a VR-241. I think those may actually be harder to locate than VR-201's. But see Ethan's suggestion - that might be pretty useful. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 12:30:07 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:30:07 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0708131030n12926b53kf4037ec57703aa65@mail.gmail.com> On 13/08/07, Julian wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Wada-else-u-need? > > > > > Somewhere affordable? And walking distance from my house would be > nice... ;-) > > But seriously, finding a location shouldn't be too difficult - I'd have > thought most universities, hospitals, sports halls/arenas etc are likely > to have suitable facilities for a first attempt and power requirements > have a prerequisite of understanding how many people are likely to turn > up with kit to demo/exhibit... > > So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can > people bring? No point stressing over space, power and helipads if there > are only a dozen people likely to exhibit with 'smaller' systems. I reckon one of the really big questions is who we'd try to get to exhibit. If it were just really retro/vintage kit - the sorts of 1970s and earlier minis and mainframes that most listers here seem to focus on - then it would be pretty small. If the remit were widened to explicitly include home micros (late-'70s/1980s 8-bits, mid-80s-later 16-bits, games consoles and so on), I reckon it would instantly quadruple the "draw", in terms of exhibitors and attendees. If it included any and all interesting computer kit, including modern customised PCs, then it could be pretty huge. The problem becomes where to draw the line. I think it would be beneficial to make it as inclusive as reasonably possible. That was it has a decent chance of paying for itself. However, then you start facing the issue of professional dealers wanting to show up and sell. That need not be a problem - it could be worthwhile to have a separate section, perhaps, of pro traders, in a fenced-off area, who paid for their stands and can sell whatever they want. It might be worth specifying only 2nd-hand kit, to prevent the event turning into a general PC fair. Those are everywhere these days and are typically thronged. Or, have it as an adjoining PC fair, separate but related? I myself would probably tend to edge toward making it a bank holiday long event, with an evening programme of talks and discussions, along the lines of an SF convention, to encourage and foster the social side of it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 12:41:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:41:54 -0700 Subject: Modern PC's and old ATA drives? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070813083257.07eead80@mail> References: , , <6.2.3.4.2.20070813083257.07eead80@mail> Message-ID: <46C03572.4623.22BCA2C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2007 at 10:57, John Foust wrote: > Pin 34 tells whether it's a 40- or 80-conductor cable. ...And that's the nasty, ugly, thing about PATA cables. It's the *cable* that indicates to the host that the drive is UDMA4-capable, not the drive itself. You can't mix UDMA4 and non-UDMA4 drives on an 80-conductor cable; you must use a 40 conductor cable and operate both drives as non-UDMA4 types. Similarly, the spiffiest UDMA4 drive won't do the UDMA4 thing on a 40- conductor cable and a non-UDMA4 drive will be driven as if were UDMA4- capable with an 80-conductor cable, giving one nothing but grief. I can recall getting complaints about one of our software packages *creating* data errors on drives. It turned out that the system owner was using an 80-conductor cable on a non-UDMA4 drive. The setup worked just enough to lull him into thinking that everything was cabled correctly. The outcome was that he blamed the software. Cheers, Chuck From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Aug 13 12:59:50 2007 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:59:50 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN T-shirt (Brent Hilpert) In-Reply-To: <200708130622.l7D6M8R3069704@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708130622.l7D6M8R3069704@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46C039A6.27475.57A8F9A@brian.quarterbyte.com> Wow, Chuck, that was some great sleuthing there! Thanks. I'm still wondering how on earth that demonstration snippet ended up on a T-shirt, but the owner really wasn't interested in talking about it. First off I don't think he spoke much English, second, I speak hardly any Spanish, and third, I think he found it impossible to imagine that someone was really that interested in the shirt. He probably thought I was hitting on him. (I have to admit, it's one of my more tired pickup lines: "Hey, is that FORTRAN on your shirt?") In any case he kind of squirmed around and wouldn't stand still long enough for me to really read it carefully. I had a second, third and fourth glance at it as we snaked through the check-in line at the airport. Interesting that the last word of that "STATEMENT NOT IN LANGUAGE" was missing from the shirt. Anyway -- thanks for solving the "Where did it come from?" half of the mystery. The "How did it get here?" part I'm afraid is unanswerable. Brian > The source is easy to recognize--and I'm surprised that more folks > didn't recognize it--IBM QUICKTRAN. It took quite a bit of digging > just to find a reference on the web, however: > > http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/issue_pdf/frontmatter_pdf/149/3683.pdf > > The article (page 497) appears to be the source of your T-shirt. > > Cheers, > Chuck =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:18:16 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:18:16 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: On 13/8/07 18:08, "Julian" wrote: > So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can > people bring? I'll drag along some retro SGI kit: Crimson VGX, Challenge XL and perhaps a couple of Octanes. I can "amaze" people with the fact that an on-topic computer (my dual R10000 250Mhz Octane was manufactured in 1997 ;-) can run Firefox 2.0 with a bunch of tabs open whilst running an OpenGL demo elsewhere on screen, all at a resolution of 1280x1024. Well it always impresses me, anyway! I've an Acorn Master 512 that might as well make an appearance, and another with an internal Torch Z80 copro. Games consoles coming out my ears as well if anyone cares to see what real "boxed" Radiant Silvergun on a real Saturn looks like. Perhaps not the consoles :-) In terms of power requirements only the Challenge requires a 20A supply. -Austin. From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Aug 13 13:40:05 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:40:05 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1186698645.9972.4.camel@elric> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6806@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <1186698645.9972.4.camel@elric> Message-ID: <98a3571579edcf05200a26f52d82bde7@mac.com> On 9 Aug 2007, at 23:30, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-08-09 at 14:58 -0700, Billy Pettit wrote: > >> So we have 23 people interested, very few exhibitors and a large >> geographic spread but with clusters in Yorkshire(5), Manchester(3) >> and London(2 plus 2 nearby). >> > > And a couple of us up in Scotland. > > Gordon > I have car and will travel.. can bring a working Apple Lisa and Macintosh ICL OPD HP85 and a few other 8 or 16 bitters I'm in West Sussex Roger From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 14:33:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:33:07 -0700 Subject: 68661 EPCI woes. Can anyone help? In-Reply-To: References: <20070813061505.B10DC8C1B@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au>, Message-ID: <46C04F83.11959.23227409@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2007 at 8:10, dwight elvey wrote: > For async you should be using > X16 and the correct divide settings for x16. 1X is only for sync com. > You need to compensate the divide when doing X16. It is different > than 1X. On the 2661/68661, if the internal clock is selected, the implied divisor is 16x, regardless of whatever divisor you may specify in the mode words. AFAIK, when the internal clock is specified, pins 9 and 25 turn into outputs. I've used a 2661 with an external clock in async mode, and there the divisor (1x, 16x, 64x) matters. But the 1x rate is a bastardized thing that doesn't really accommodate much speed variation between sender and receiver, unless the sender's also supplying the clock (similar to sync mode). For general-purpose async use, it's best left out of the picture. Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 13 15:00:29 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:00:29 -0400 Subject: SCSI TK50 and writing tape In-Reply-To: <200708131607.l7DG7UJ1010255@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200708131607.l7DG7UJ1010255@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <46C0B85D.5020901@compsys.to> >Brad Parker wrote: >I plugged my TK50Z-GA into a an ancient laptop (166mhz) running a linux >2.2 kernel and it worked as expected. > >The kernel saw the device and noticed it was a tape. > >The only writable media I have is "compactape-II", so caveat emptor. I >was able to copy a 1mb file onto it with dd using block sizes of 512, >10240, 20480 and 32768. It did not seem to want to stream (possibly >because of my slow machine) but the 32768 did a lot less rocking. > > Jerome Fine replies: I used to use a TK70 as my primary backup drive about 15 years ago. Since I was reluctant to purchase "Compactape II" tape media at the still exaggerated prices sold by DEC, I checked to data sheets on a Memorex site - now long gone. Both the physical properties AND the magnetic properties of the regular Compactape and Compactape II were IDENTICAL. Based on the few Compactape II media that I found by accident, the only 2 differences that I ever found were the blue vs brown label name and the PRICE!!!!!!!!!! But in order to use a non-blank tape written by a TK50 on a TK70, a bulk erase was required. I suspect that the same might be required in the reverse direction. During the 10 years I used the Compactape media on TK70 drives, I never had a failure - and I ALWAYS verified EVERY tape that was written (almost all with 256 MB of files) against the original drives after writing to the media during a separate operation. >It sure seems like it would build a bsd tape cleanly, but with a lot of >rocking back and forth, or "shoeshining" (a phrase which makes me smile). > >I have some tk70's also, hence the media. I hoped to write a few tapes >with the TK50Z-GA and the read them with a tk70 plugged into a qbus. > >I guess I should find some plain old compacttap somewhere. > I still have a few ready for the TK70. As I suggested, they may need to be bulk erased. Contact me in a month if you can't find any tapes. I am in Toronto. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 15:12:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:12:38 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN T-shirt (Brent Hilpert) In-Reply-To: <46C039A6.27475.57A8F9A@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <200708130622.l7D6M8R3069704@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46C039A6.27475.57A8F9A@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <46C058C6.565.2346A27E@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2007 at 10:59, Brian Knittel wrote: > I'm still wondering how on earth that demonstration > snippet ended up on a T-shirt, but the owner really wasn't > interested in talking about it. First off I don't think > he spoke much English, second, I speak hardly any Spanish, > and third, I think he found it impossible to imagine that > someone was really that interested in the shirt. He probably > thought I was hitting on him. (I have to admit, it's one of my > more tired pickup lines: "Hey, is that FORTRAN on your shirt?") > In any case he kind of squirmed around and wouldn't stand still > long enough for me to really read it carefully. I had a second, > third and fourth glance at it as we snaked through the check-in > line at the airport. I might be concerned that FORTRAN meant something unintended in Spanish. Sabe Vd. que el FORTRAN est? en su camisa? Er, maybe not. ;) There were so many FORTRAN variants; QUIKTRAN (no "C", sorry for the original typo) was pretty unique as an interactive language for the time. JOSS was about the same time, but it wasn't a "standard" programming language and was actually pretty awkward. IITRAN, at the time, was about the closest thing to interactive FORTRAN. It was FORTRAN-ish, with many simplifications and limitations, and it only ran on IIT's 360/40 AFAIK. Although it's hard to appreciate today, great suspicion was cast toward interactive programming at the time. "Real" programmers sat down with coding pads and flowcharts and wrote their programs, desk- checking everything, then had the code keypunched and compiled in batch mode. It was odd, but machine time was valuable enough that it was cheaper to have a programmer sweat with a No. 2 pencil and coding pad and keypunch than to have the same programmer enter the program on a remote terminal. And that's why I remember QUIKTRAN--it was interactive, and did syntax checking as statements were entered. I tried to get CDC management interested in a "programmer's editor" that would run interactively with syntax checking, but ran into a brick wall of opposition. Chief among the claims were that it was too expensive to have every programmer with a terminal and it would lead to "sloppy" code. That was back around 1972. Cheers, Chuck From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 13 15:29:57 2007 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:29:57 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <98a3571579edcf05200a26f52d82bde7@mac.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6806@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com><1186698645.9972.4.camel@elric> <98a3571579edcf05200a26f52d82bde7@mac.com> Message-ID: <064201c7dde8$b79ba310$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Roger Pugh wrote; > On 9 Aug 2007, at 23:30, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > On Thu, 2007-08-09 at 14:58 -0700, Billy Pettit wrote: > > > >> So we have 23 people interested, very few exhibitors and a large > >> geographic spread but with clusters in Yorkshire(5), Manchester(3) > >> and London(2 plus 2 nearby). > >> > > > > And a couple of us up in Scotland. > > > > Gordon > > > > I have car and will travel.. can bring a working Apple Lisa > and Macintosh > > ICL OPD HP85 and a few other 8 or 16 bitters > > I'm in West Sussex Hi all, I missed out on a couple of weeks worth of posts, due to a problem with my e-mail, which means I don't know what's been decided here, if anything... However, I get the gist, so I'll chuck my tuppence in: I also have a car, & will travel - I'm currently located near Liverpool (i.e. Manchester region), and although I plan to be living in Spain after mid September, I will be returning relatively regularly, and could make a trip to a UK VCFalike. I can bring (working): Sinclair QLs, Sharp MZ-80K/A/B, an HP85, probably a couple of PETs (4016 & 8032) - and, if it still works, the infamous Mator Shark CBM PET harddrive (even bigger & heavier than the official Commodore unit!), an OPD. Also, currently non-working, an Osborne OCC1 (1st version, with the ribbon cable to the keyboard), an HP1000 with disk drives, tape drives, printer - but no software at all (it used to work, but needs to be dried out for a while before I attempt to boot it - and besides, I have no software, or knowledge of how to make it actually do anything), an HP1000 model A700 (which apparently doesn't exist - except I have one...). Hmm, I'll need a big van if I'm to bring the HPs... + various other things, most of which I've forgotten what they are, where they are, & whether or not they work... Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 12/08/2007 11:03 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 16:09:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:09:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023137@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 10, 7 09:56:21 am Message-ID: > > Hi > I am now the owner of a DEC Rainbow 100 Plus. (10mb Hard Drive and > all) > Its just like the one I had on my desk at DECPark circa 1981=20 > The good news is its got loads of software with it. > The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is shot. > The screen has mould between the tube and bonded on faceplate. > No amount of standard adjustment will make it bright enough to read in > normal lighting. > So... > I need: > =20 > a) A replacement tube. IIRC, the CRT is a pretty generic one, a 7 pin (modified B7G base) with 11.5V heater. I usepect (without trying it) that any 12" 90 degree deflection CRT with those cheacteristics will work. Last time I needed a CRT (to repair a somewhat odd terminal), I found the easiest/cheapest way to get one was to buy a monochrome portable TV and raid it for the CRT. But can you still buy monochrome protable TVs? > =20 > or=20 > =20 > b) a Digital VR201-A , -B or -C > =20 > or > =20 > d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ e) A normal TV-rate composite monitor and the right cabling. Basically, you have to wire up an RJ11 socket to the right 4 pins on the DA15 connector for the keyboard, and take composite video (and ground) from another 2 pins. By default the 'bow uses US rates, but I think you can set it to 50Hz vetical on one of the setup menus, so it should be close then to UK rates. Let me know if you want to do this and I can dig out the pinouts, etc. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 13 16:50:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:50:23 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <575131af0708131017i1ba7d7bciff9d069553cd8bc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708090501r52f449d3ke15c18ce34ba2397@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0708131017i1ba7d7bciff9d069553cd8bc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C0D21F.3060605@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > On 12/08/07, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: >> On 8/9/07, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> Secondly, there is >> "was" >> >>> an existing UK retrocomputing event, although it's >>> not that regular. >> It's deceased. It is an ex-event. It is pining for the fjords. > > Oh dear. I didn't know that. I seem to recall that Chris put well over ten grand of his own money into the retro gaming event a few years ago, and I don't think he ever got any of that back - plus the organisational workload was an absolute killer; it was talking to him about that which makes me appreciate just how useful it would be to run a UK show as a VCF and therefore tap into previous VCF knowledge! (That may well be the same event Ed's talking about - I know Chris was giving serious consideration to never doing another one after that) > I was a little surprised at the number of people selling stuff at the > one I went to. I really ought to clear out my attic and eBay off some > of the 1980s 8-bit clutter in there myself! Yeah, I've been talking about that for weeks and just never get any free time at the moment :( Which is a shame as it's all got to go in the next few months... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 13 16:55:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:55:23 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: <46C0D34B.1090005@yahoo.co.uk> Julian wrote: > But seriously, finding a location shouldn't be too difficult - I'd have > thought most universities, hospitals, sports halls/arenas etc are likely > to have suitable facilities for a first attempt and power requirements > have a prerequisite of understanding how many people are likely to turn > up with kit to demo/exhibit... What happens about public liability insurance? Do such places normally have it anyway and so therefore an event can be run without that added expense? I bet it'd be a few thousand if not... > So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can > people bring? Probably won't be here by the time it happens, but I can rustle up just about anything Acorn, Torch or Research Machines. I don't do big iron at home - I save that for Bletchley... From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 13 17:14:44 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:14:44 -0500 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0D34B.1090005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> <46C0D34B.1090005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46C0D7D4.50906@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Julian wrote: > >> But seriously, finding a location shouldn't be too difficult - I'd >> have thought most universities, hospitals, sports halls/arenas etc are >> likely to have suitable facilities for a first attempt and power >> requirements have a prerequisite of understanding how many people are >> likely to turn up with kit to demo/exhibit... > > > What happens about public liability insurance? Do such places normally > have it anyway and so therefore an event can be run without that added > expense? I bet it'd be a few thousand if not... I worked with a custom silversmith a few years ago, and we paid a liability insurance fee in every show where we set up a booth. Mostly, the insurance was more than the space rent. Doc From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 13 17:20:35 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:20:35 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: <46C0D933.7040404@philpem.me.uk> Julian wrote: > So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can > people bring? No point stressing over space, power and helipads if there > are only a dozen people likely to exhibit with 'smaller' systems. I'd probably bring my BBC Micro kit, the floppy drive reader (which is about half done - I'm having to partially redesign the I/O system using 74LS latches instead of having the I/O on the CPLD) and probably my homebrew Eurocard 6502 system. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Aug 13 17:52:11 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:52:11 -0700 Subject: SciFil Cons - UK retro show thoughts Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Liam Proven wrote: I myself would probably tend to edge toward making it a bank holiday long event, with an evening programme of talks and discussions, along the lines of an SF convention, to encourage and foster the social side of it. -- Second reference I've seen on the list to science fiction conventions. I'm curious. How many list members have been to a sci-fi convention or even know about them? Anybody been to any WorldCons, Westercons or EasterCons? I know Chris Garcia is active in fandom. Anybody else? Semi-OT since many of the cons are heavily computer/robot leaning events. In the early days, it was about the only place that computer geeks could gather and be respected as peers. Billy From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 13 18:44:02 2007 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:44:02 +0100 Subject: Elan Enterprise 64k - PSU spec? Message-ID: <066b01c7de03$d480fdc0$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Hi, Does anyone here have an Elan Enterprise 64k with its PSU - and, if so, can you please tell me what the power in specs are (i.e. DC voltage & pin polarity)? Many thanks in advance, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 12/08/2007 11:03 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 18:56:12 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <292179.44023.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is > shot. > > The screen has mould between the tube and bonded > on faceplate. > > No amount of standard adjustment will make it > bright enough to read in > > normal lighting. Have you tried taking the monitor apart and separating the faceplate from the tube? That faceplate is bonded on with a PVA compound - that's what the mold eats. I have never done this with a terminal tube, but on the old round-tube color TV's, you can take the tube, heat the face with a heat gun, and separate the safety glass from the picture tube. After that, you need to clean out the PVA compound/gunk and stick the faceplate back on - packing tape around the edges works well. Now, this method works on the old TV's because the safety glass was just a piece of glass glued to the tube. Is the VR201's faceplate glass, or is it plastic? Also, some types of TV tubes (Zenith, especially) don't take to the heat gun method. I have no idea about the VR201, but it might be worth investigating and taking the tube out. Sometimes if the mold is really, really bad, it will have eaten away almost everything holding on the faceplate, and it will come off easily. -Ian From river at zip.com.au Mon Aug 13 19:12:35 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:12:35 +1000 Subject: 68661 EPCI woes. Now fixed, thanks In-Reply-To: <200708131707.l7DH6MSh080708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070814001231.8AA8927431@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Hi, Thank you for your replies, and the emails I received directly from those learned people who assisted me. I was setting the Mode Registers incorrectly, and I now have the 68661 running sweetly on an expanded SDK85 system. Seeyuzz River From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 19:50:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:50:00 -0700 Subject: 68661 EPCI woes. Now fixed, thanks In-Reply-To: <20070814001231.8AA8927431@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> References: <200708131707.l7DH6MSh080708@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20070814001231.8AA8927431@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <46C099C8.22646.24448D43@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2007 at 10:12, river wrote: > I was setting the Mode Registers incorrectly, and I now have the 68661 > running sweetly on an expanded SDK85 system. At the peril of getting a brickbat shied in my direction, I wonder if 2400 bps is within the capabilities of SID and SOD on the 8085? Never tried it, so I don't know if it'd work. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 20:30:56 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:30:56 +0100 Subject: SciFil Cons - UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708131830o6ff06ba1wf569cb858d5f2052@mail.gmail.com> On 13/08/07, Billy Pettit wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > I myself would probably tend to edge toward making it a bank holiday > long event, with an evening programme of talks and discussions, along > the lines of an SF convention, to encourage and foster the social side > of it. > > -- > > Second reference I've seen on the list to science fiction conventions. I'm > curious. How many list members have been to a sci-fi convention or even > know about them? Anybody been to any WorldCons, Westercons or EasterCons? > I know Chris Garcia is active in fandom. Anybody else? > > Semi-OT since many of the cons are heavily computer/robot leaning events. > In the early days, it was about the only place that computer geeks could > gather and be respected as peers. Well, me, obviously. Eastercon '94 - date Worldcon '87, '91, '95, '05 Novacon '95 - date except 2005 Octocon '02, '03, '04 Most Picocons since about 1995 + Many more non-annual ones! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Aug 13 21:04:09 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:04:09 -0500 Subject: Another list poll (was: SciFil Cons - UK retro show thoughts) In-Reply-To: <575131af0708131830o6ff06ba1wf569cb858d5f2052@mail.gmail.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <575131af0708131830o6ff06ba1wf569cb858d5f2052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C10D99.1060705@pacbell.net> ... >> Second reference I've seen on the list to science fiction conventions. I'm >> curious. How many list members have been to a sci-fi convention or even >> know about them? Anybody been to any WorldCons, Westercons or EasterCons? >> I know Chris Garcia is active in fandom. Anybody else? ... I'm curious: how many people on this list are interested in vintage computers? (please don't reply -- it was meant to be a rebuke, not an invitation to chatter about non-vintage and non-computer stuff) Obligatory real cctalk: I recently made contact with one of the important people in the Wang 2200 community, Tim VeArd. He had an interesting tidbit to share, but first some background. The 2200 is a microcode BASIC implementation, with no native assembly language accessible to the user. The 2200 BASIC syntax couldn't anticipate all the various I/O devices that might be connected to the machines, and Wang didn't want to have to keep doing microcode ROM updates in the field every time a new I/O device was added. Tim at the time was working on secret government stuff, and they had the need to interface the 2200 to all manner of devices. Tim badgered Wang into adding the $GIO() commands. $GIO defined a synthetic restricted machine language, somewhat like the early Apple II ROMs contained Woz's SWEET16 interpreter. This fake machine code would be loaded into an array of strings, and then a call to the $GIO() command would interpret the commands. The 2200 $GIO command set was far to limited to do anything interesting, but the 2200VP $GIO command set was augmented with more powerful commands (but still limited). I've long wondered if anybody, as a hack, wrote anything interesting, like a tiny basic implementation, in $GIO code, or if it would even be possible. I can tell that Tim VeArd has many more stories to tell, and I hope to extract some of them soon. At one time Wang named him the 2200 programmer of the year. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Aug 13 21:13:38 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:13:38 -0700 Subject: UK retro show thoughts Message-ID: <001001c7de18$c4549f50$6601a8c0@downstairs2> I won't be able to make a UK show this year but I did make it to one in 1981. (I live in Seattle WA.) He is my 1981 write up of the London Computer Faire. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MySystem/LondonComputerFaire.htm I will be exhibiting at VCF 10 this November. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Aug 14 03:55:49 2007 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:55:49 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening Message-ID: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> I can't believe I've opened such a heated debate! How about another suggestion - a UK cctalk members get together. It looks like the complexity of organising a general event, and previously documented failures, are likely to put people off. I'm thinking 'start small' here. Maybe an event with 30 or so participants? Primarily to 'chew-the-cud'? It's more likely to get off the ground I would have thought. Mark. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:47:28 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 03:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? Message-ID: <280688.59957.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a spare/old cleaner tape for a DLTtape IV drive? I have one of these drives installed in an old Sun but the 'head clean' light has now illuminated. Thanks. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 14 09:18:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:18:20 -0500 Subject: List Admin References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <575131af0708131830o6ff06ba1wf569cb858d5f2052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001b01c7de7d$fc65b270$6500a8c0@BILLING> *tilt* This is not a list for discussion of SciFi, or all the myraid of other crap that has been going on here lately. I am not referring to just the SciFi question, it was merely the last straw of many. You will henceforth use alternate mailing lists or private email for that type of content. They do exist. Really. Go find them. If it's not about classic computers or their acquisition, repair, running, history, or emulation.... do not post it. You'll earn a temporary unsubscribe from the list. You can reapply in one week and be approved or you can just not come back. I really don't care which at this point. I do not want to see a long (or even a short) diatribe of follow up posts on this. I do not want to hear another thread on "well, what's classic/ontopic then". You're supposed to be intelligent adults so I'm going to assume you have some clue what this list is for and what it is not for. I don't want to hear another load of "oh I'm scared to post cause I don't know what is ontopic". I doubt anyone is that dense. I don't want to hear another thread on "this is cctalk we can talk about what we want". You can't. There is one and only one reason that the list isn't back into emergency moderation mode right now - I'm overcomitted work-wise at the moment and don't have the time to babysit. So instead I'm just going to unsub people who don't get the point or chose to argue about it. Call that heavyhanded if you like - so be it. At this time I can't read every post. If offtopicness continues and I miss it, please bring it to my attention off-list and you can be sure it will be delt with. Jay West From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 14 10:33:15 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:33:15 -0500 Subject: March 11, 1977 original ADVENT code found? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070814102838.07d01658@mail> Old backup tapes to the rescue! http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/14/011230 http://jerz.setonhill.edu/if/crowther/ - John From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Aug 14 10:40:32 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:40:32 -0500 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <280688.59957.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> At 03:47 AM 8/14/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have a spare/old cleaner tape for >a DLTtape IV drive? I have one of these drives >installed in an old Sun but the 'head clean' >light has now illuminated. If you find a source that's cheap, let me know, as I have the same problem. I went and purchased same outright. I seem to have found the best deal at the time at http://www.computergiants.com/ although that was some time ago. I suspect that as a cleaning tape is a consumable item and only lasts for x (20?) cleaning cycles, you may just have to buy one. Seems like they run about fiddy bucks here in the US. I have a Maxell DLT Cleaning Tape III, which I use for my DLT IV drives. ----- 306. [Commentary] Putting smokers and non-smokers in the same room is like having a urinating and a non-urinating section in a swimming pool. ---Ross Parker --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 10:56:29 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> Message-ID: <889105.74305.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tom Peters wrote: > At 03:47 AM 8/14/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >Does anyone have a spare/old cleaner tape for > >a DLTtape IV drive? I have one of these drives > >installed in an old Sun but the 'head clean' > >light has now illuminated. > > If you find a source that's cheap, let me know, as I > have the same problem. > I went and purchased same outright. I seem to have > found the best deal at > the time at http://www.computergiants.com/ although > that was some time ago. > > I suspect that as a cleaning tape is a consumable > item and only lasts for x > (20?) cleaning cycles, you may just have to buy one. > Seems like they run > about fiddy bucks here in the US. I have a Maxell > DLT Cleaning Tape III, > which I use for my DLT IV drives. > > > > > > > ----- > 306. [Commentary] Putting smokers and non-smokers in > the same room is like > having a urinating and a non-urinating section in a > swimming pool. ---Ross > Parker > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB > (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: > http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43??? 7' 17.2" N by 88??? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', > Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, > Registered Linux User 385531 > > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 10:58:56 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> Message-ID: <391935.62807.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tom Peters wrote: > At 03:47 AM 8/14/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >Does anyone have a spare/old cleaner tape for > >a DLTtape IV drive? I have one of these drives > >installed in an old Sun but the 'head clean' > >light has now illuminated. > > If you find a source that's cheap, let me know, as I > have the same problem. Whoops, hit send there by accident before typing... sorry about that. Yeah, I ran into the same problem a while back, you pretty much have to buy one new - they are only good for like 20 cleans, although they'll work much longer, but eventually they really don't clean anymore and must be replaced. There is only one cleaning tape for both DLTIII and DLTIV drives - the CleaningTape III. Good luck, and if you find a good source, let us know :) -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 11:04:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:04:24 -0700 Subject: March 11, 1977 original ADVENT code found? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070814102838.07d01658@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070814102838.07d01658@mail> Message-ID: <46C17018.13938.2789B5EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2007 at 10:33, John Foust wrote: > Old backup tapes to the rescue! > > http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/14/011230 > > http://jerz.setonhill.edu/if/crowther/ So what were the differences between the 1977 version and the earlier ones? I'm certain the DECsystem 10 tape that I got from a DEC Field Engineer was probably in late 1975-or sometime during 1976--it definitely wasn't 1977 (I didn't have access to the equipment to read it then). It wouldn't surprise me if other copies eventually surfaced--it was widely pirated throughout the DEC culture. My only encounter with the code is having taken that tape and converted it to run on a CDC Cyber 74 using the FTN compiler. (Something that I'm surprised I wasn't fired for doing, given the number of CPU cycles that were subsequently burned playing the thing). Of course, I had the source code and database files, so I knew all of the gimmicks ahead of time. There's also a CP/M version from somewhat later running around, that I've got somewhere (not my work). Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 14 11:18:02 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:18:02 -0700 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> Message-ID: At 10:40 AM -0500 8/14/07, Tom Peters wrote: >I suspect that as a cleaning tape is a consumable item and only >lasts for x (20?) cleaning cycles, you may just have to buy one. >Seems like they run about fiddy bucks here in the US. I have a >Maxell DLT Cleaning Tape III, which I use for my DLT IV drives. We used the Fuji Cleaning Tape III's starting with DLT4000 (when we switched to DLT) through the DLT8000 drives. They should only be used 20 times. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 11:24:20 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:24:20 -0400 Subject: Wang items Message-ID: I have a medium sized Wang system available for free, snagged with a bunch of Data General equipment I was saving for a fellow list member. Neither of us are Wang fans. This is a Wang VS45, with a console terminal, printer, a comms box, and a Wang/CDC 80M 14" drive. Included is an unopened pair of boxes, apparently a Wang enlargement kit, to get this machine up to a VS65 - probably some boards, a new power supply, but no special cremes or pumps. There is software (VS operating system distribution) and docs, but these may go to Al. I am not sure about this yet. The VS45 is a cube about 2 by 2 by 2 1/2 feet, but really not very heavy (200-250 pounds). The console is remarkable, as it is the only Wang tube I have ever seen that is not screen burned. The printer is a pretty standard printer, about 70 pounds. The comms box is not too big either. I can probably deliver reasonably close to 10512 quite inexpensively. Of course, if someone a few hundred miles away wants this stuff, I can also deliver for a reasonable charge. I do not really expect to get anything for the machine, although I would not turn down a trade or bribe. -- Will From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 11:43:22 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:43:22 -0500 Subject: HP2627A, HP82901M Message-ID: <624966d60708140943sf063e5fs8931a57ee4256ac9@mail.gmail.com> I have recently picked up 2 HP2627A terminals(1985), both missing top covers, one missing the 2 boards across the back, and a HP82901M flezible disc drive(1982). If anyone is interested,please contact me off list. Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 14 11:41:15 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulating VAX/VMS in SIMH Message-ID: I have some questions about simulating early versions of VMS on a VAX using SIMH. >From reading the docs it seems that the earliest version of VMS that can be run is 5.5-2. Has anyone successfully run an earlier version of VMS? Also, are there images of VMS 5.5 floating around that I can use? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 14 11:51:57 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? Message-ID: Has anyone developed a simulator for Prime machines? The Oracle of WWW says no. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From drb at msu.edu Tue Aug 14 12:00:10 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:00:10 -0400 Subject: Simulating VAX/VMS in SIMH In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:41:15 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <200708141700.l7EH0AhK011757@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > From reading the docs it seems that the earliest version of VMS that can > be run is 5.5-2. Has anyone successfully run an earlier version of VMS? Not sure about the older VAX code in simh, which emulates a MicroVAX 3900. HP claims 5.1-1 supported that real hardware. But the newer 11/780 simh variant ought to be able to run older versions of VMS. De From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 14 12:01:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:01:51 -0400 Subject: SciFil Cons - UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200708141301.51286.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 13 August 2007 18:52, Billy Pettit wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > I myself would probably tend to edge toward making it a bank holiday > long event, with an evening programme of talks and discussions, along > the lines of an SF convention, to encourage and foster the social side > of it. > > -- > > Second reference I've seen on the list to science fiction conventions. I'm > curious. How many list members have been to a sci-fi convention or even > know about them? Anybody been to any WorldCons, Westercons or EasterCons? > I know Chris Garcia is active in fandom. Anybody else? (Waving...) Never made it to any of the really big ones, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 12:20:08 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <167026.76034.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Has anyone developed a simulator for Prime machines? > The Oracle of WWW > says no. Yes. Someone has written a Prime emulator, and has it running, accessable over the internet. It's still in it's early beta stages though, and he isn't to a "release state" yet. I've used it - so far it looks good. I believe it's only capable of running Rev 19. at the moment, however - but don't quote me on that. I haven't kept up on the development of it though, since I have real Primes :). -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 14 12:22:01 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:22:01 -0500 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <391935.62807.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> <391935.62807.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070814122046.081e7cf0@mail> At 10:58 AM 8/14/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >There is only one cleaning tape for both DLTIII and >DLTIV drives - the CleaningTape III. >Good luck, and if you find a good source, let us know My best cheap source has been companies who formerly used DLT, bought a cleaning tape or two and never used them often enough, and who are happy to give you the whole kit and caboodle when you find the old DLT stuff sitting in the closet. - John From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 14 12:29:19 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulating VAX/VMS in SIMH Message-ID: Dennis Boone said: > Not sure about the older VAX code in simh, which emulates a MicroVAX > 3900. HP claims 5.1-1 supported that real hardware. But the newer > 11/780 simh variant ought to be able to run older versions of VMS. You know what? I am lame. I didn't realize SIMH could do the VAX 11/780. After searching around a bit I read a message from Bob Supnik circa 2004 saying that making an 11/780 simulator would require practically a whole new simulator and then assumed that no one went forward to make one. Duh. Anyway, thanks for the tip. Now, does anyone know where I can get VMS 3.2? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 14 12:45:23 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulating VAX/VMS in SIMH In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 14, 2007 09:41:15 AM Message-ID: <200708141745.l7EHjOk9016028@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have some questions about simulating early versions of VMS on a VAX > using SIMH. > > From reading the docs it seems that the earliest version of VMS that can > be run is 5.5-2. Has anyone successfully run an earlier version of VMS? > > Also, are there images of VMS 5.5 floating around that I can use? I've never even used the VAX SIMH emulation, however, I believe people have had as far back as V1.5 running on the VAX-11/780 version. I'm afraid I do not know where you can get copies of VMS prior to 5.5 (VAX/VMS V5.5 - 6.x is on the Hobbyist V1 CD). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 12:45:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:45:10 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting Message-ID: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> I need to mount some full-height and half-height 5.25" floppy drives as well as a few 3.5" units on a standard EIA rack. Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to go about this would be? Thanks, Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Aug 14 12:56:10 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:56:10 +0100 Subject: Simulating VAX/VMS in SIMH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70708141056r1e3f98f7re4280ef8613971a5@mail.gmail.com> On 14/08/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Anyway, thanks for the tip. Now, does anyone know where I can get VMS > 3.2? ;) > Hmm.... I used to use (briefly!) an 11/780 back in about 1982-1983.. Would that have been a 3.x version? The number feels familiar! I'll have to order a bucket of round tuits and have a play with simh one day... (I was a lowly apprentice at Ferranti Computer Systems, Cheadle Heath, and we had several VAXen networked, and I spent a few months in the operations department, running backups mainly! But I did manage to write a bomber-style game, possibly in Fortran, to amuse myself. ) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 13:11:47 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I need to mount some full-height and half-height > 5.25" floppy drives > as well as a few 3.5" units on a standard EIA rack. > Does anyone have > any ideas about the best way to go about this would > be? Well, if you want the cheap-and-dirty way to do it (my favorite way!) you could use a piece of 1/4" plywood as a faceplate, cut square holes in it the size of a full height 5 1/4" drive, and scavenge some drive frames from junked PC mid-tower cabinets. Screw the drive frames to the back of the plywood, and paint the plywood to match the cabinet. The weight of the floppy drives shouldn't be enough so that it needs any more support than a few rack screws drilled through the edges of the plywood. Or, if you want a more professional look, hunt around for some old CD-library rackmount things, you know, the ones with many SCSI CD-ROM players in a rackmount box with power supply? Pull out the CD drives, and put in floppy drives. Remember - when making things to mount drives in - junked PC cases are your friend. You can drill out those rivets and have nice, pre-made drive frames. And don't overlook that metal pipe-hanger strapping - the metal strips with holes in them. Erector set pieces work too. Good luck. -Ian From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 13:17:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023137@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <188136.92048.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rod Smallwood wrote: > The screen has mould between the tube and bonded on > faceplate. > No amount of standard adjustment will make it bright > enough to read in > normal lighting. Can someone explain this to me? It seems self explanatory I guess. I have to confess I am unaware of this faceplate stuff. Plastic? Absent on most monitors I would think. If I'm correct in any of this, isn't there a way to remove the faceplate even if it's bonded on? Using something that will break the bond (w/o destroying the tube), some kind of solvent maybe? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 14 13:20:06 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:20:06 -0500 Subject: Wang items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C1F256.4080701@pacbell.net> William Donzelli wrote: > I have a medium sized Wang system available for free, snagged with a > bunch of Data General equipment I was saving for a fellow list member. > Neither of us are Wang fans. > > This is a Wang VS45, with a console terminal, printer, a comms box, > and a Wang/CDC 80M 14" drive. My interest runs only to the 2200 families of Wang equipment, not the VS and not the OIS equipment, and especially not their PCs. There is something I find interesting about the VS family. My understanding is that the VS is a clone of the IBM 360 instruction set, but all the software was written by Wang with no intent of copying the IBM OS's. I'm sure over time the instruction sets diverged, but it is kind of neat to think there is a 360 in there. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 13:29:53 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:53 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Remember - when making things to mount drives in - > junked PC cases are your friend. You can drill out > those rivets and have nice, pre-made drive frames. And > don't overlook that metal pipe-hanger strapping - the > metal strips with holes in them. Erector set pieces > work too. I have quite a lot of blank, undrilled, aluminum rack panels in various sizes and thicknesses. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 13:39:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <188136.92048.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <805624.94033.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Can someone explain this to me? It seems self > explanatory I guess. I have to confess I am unaware > of > this faceplate stuff. Plastic? Absent on most > monitors > I would think. On old color TV tubes, there was a "safety glass" glued to the face of the tube. Really glued on good. It was there so that if the tube imploded (this was before integral implosion protection and rimbands on tubes) then the glass wouldn't go flying forward, and into people staring into the tube. Modern tubes employ a tight metal band around the outside of the tube, so that if it implodes, it'll crush in on itself more, and is much, much less likely to launch glass forward. On terminals, early ones, there was a similar protective coating. Sometimes it's glass, but I know that at least one I have (an old Teleray) it definitely seems to be made of plastic. Although I'm not certain. It's bonded to the face of the tube. You can remove it without destroying the tube, but it's tricky to remove it without destroying the faceplate too. A heat gun will, on some tubes, soften the glue and allow it to be removed. Gentle prodding on the edge with a sliver of wood helps - you want to introduce air bubbles under the faceplate to break the vaccuum-y bond. > If I'm correct in any of this, isn't there a way to > remove the faceplate even if it's bonded on? Using > something that will break the bond (w/o destroying > the > tube), some kind of solvent maybe? Solvents aren't really good for this, I've only heard of success with heat. And some kinds of tubes don't even respond to the heat well (Zenith color TV tubes), and require the faceplate to be cut off with a hot wire (think nichrome wire and a car battery) Now, I've never removed the faceplate from a terminal tube before - but I would imagine that things that apply to television tubes would also apply to small terminal tubes. And in some cases, the mold may have already done the work for you. I know of one guy that had a TV tube where the mold had eaten almost all the bonding agent, and the warmth from the sunlight was enough to get the faceplate off. The tube is perfectly stable even without the faceplate, it's primarily there to prevent flying glass in the _event_ of implosion, not to prevent implosion itself. Once the faceplate has been removed and cleaned, and the tube face is cleaned, it's common to stick the faceplate back on using some packing tape around the edge. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 14:59:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:59:35 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com>, <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2007 at 11:11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, if you want the cheap-and-dirty way to do it (my > favorite way!) you could use a piece of 1/4" plywood > as a faceplate, cut square holes in it the size of a > full height 5 1/4" drive, and scavenge some drive > frames from junked PC mid-tower cabinets. Screw the > drive frames to the back of the plywood, and paint the > plywood to match the cabinet. The weight of the floppy > drives shouldn't be enough so that it needs any more > support than a few rack screws drilled through the > edges of the plywood. Reminds me of the old-time custom of making rack panels out of 1/4" masonite. I was thinking about 1/4" polycarbonate and a router (the machine tool, not the network gear). I could make the side rails from the same, just solvent-cemented to the front. I'm not sure how, using the tools I have to carve big holes in a thick aluminum blank panel plate. Would a 3 HP router and a carbide bit do it? Ideally, I suppose a vertical mill would be the "right" tool, but I don't have access to one. Cheers, Chuck From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Tue Aug 14 15:14:54 2007 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles Fox) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:14:54 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070814201458.EE576400@fep1.cogeco.net> At 03:59 PM 8/14/2007, you wrote: >I'm not sure how, using the tools I have to carve big holes in a >thick aluminum blank panel plate. Would a 3 HP router and a carbide >bit do it? Ideally, I suppose a vertical mill would be the "right" >tool, but I don't have access to one. > >Cheers, >Chuck I have often cut 1/8" aluminum panels with a portable jigsaw. It's hard on the blade but it works, drill holes in the corners of the area and away you go. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 16:30:06 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:06 +0100 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070814122046.081e7cf0@mail> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> <391935.62807.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070814122046.081e7cf0@mail> Message-ID: On 8/14/07, John Foust wrote: > At 10:58 AM 8/14/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >There is only one cleaning tape for both DLTIII and > >DLTIV drives - the CleaningTape III. > >Good luck, and if you find a good source, let us know The CleaningTape IIIs come up all the time on eBay UK. More often than the actual data tapes do, it seems sometimes ;) Ed. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 14 16:36:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:36:41 -0400 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070814103347.0d093530@localhost> <391935.62807.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070814122046.081e7cf0@mail> Message-ID: <46C22069.6070306@atarimuseum.com> Do a little research though, certain Type III's can damage a type IV read/write head, make sure you check your drive manufacturer for recommended brands/types of Type III cleaning carts. Curt listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 8/14/07, John Foust wrote: > >> At 10:58 AM 8/14/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> >>> There is only one cleaning tape for both DLTIII and >>> DLTIV drives - the CleaningTape III. >>> Good luck, and if you find a good source, let us know >>> > > The CleaningTape IIIs come up all the time on eBay UK. More often than > the actual data tapes do, it seems sometimes ;) > > Ed. > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 14 17:24:46 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:24:46 -0700 Subject: List Admin In-Reply-To: <001b01c7de7d$fc65b270$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6815@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <575131af0708131830o6ff06ba1wf569cb858d5f2052@mail.gmail.com> <001b01c7de7d$fc65b270$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200708141524.46937.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 14 August 2007 07:18, Jay West wrote: > *tilt* > > This is not a list for discussion of SciFi, or all the myraid of other crap > that has been going on here lately. I am not referring to just the SciFi > question, it was merely the last straw of many. You will henceforth use > alternate mailing lists or private email for that type of content. They do > exist. Really. Go find them. > > If it's not about classic computers or their acquisition, repair, running, > history, or emulation.... do not post it. You'll earn a temporary > unsubscribe from the list. You can reapply in one week and be approved or > you can just not come back. I really don't care which at this point. > > I do not want to see a long (or even a short) diatribe of follow up posts > on this. I do not want to hear another thread on "well, what's > classic/ontopic then". You're supposed to be intelligent adults so I'm > going to assume you have some clue what this list is for and what it is not > for. I don't want to hear another load of "oh I'm scared to post cause I > don't know what is ontopic". I doubt anyone is that dense. I don't want to > hear another thread on "this is cctalk we can talk about what we want". You > can't. There is one and only one reason that the list isn't back into > emergency moderation mode right now - I'm overcomitted work-wise at the > moment and don't have the time to babysit. So instead I'm just going to > unsub people who don't get the point or chose to argue about it. Call that > heavyhanded if you like - so be it. > > At this time I can't read every post. If offtopicness continues and I miss > it, please bring it to my attention off-list and you can be sure it will be > delt with. THANKS, JAY! I'm with you 100% Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 14 17:52:06 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Aug 14, 2007 10:30:06 PM Message-ID: <200708142252.l7EMq6gh023422@onyx.spiritone.com> > The CleaningTape IIIs come up all the time on eBay UK. More often than > the actual data tapes do, it seems sometimes ;) > > Ed. If buying a CleaningTape III on eBay, make sure its still sealed. Do you really want to be buying cleaning tapes on eBay? Zane From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 14 19:18:49 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Large computer rescue - any collectors in the VA/PA/DC/WV/NC area? Message-ID: <713068.13956.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am arranging a large vintage computer rescue, and will be on-site Thursday and Friday to inventory the equipment and make arrangements. There will be scrappers coming next week, so time is off the essence. From the most recent photos I have been sent, it looks like there may be more material there than was previously indicated, and possibly more than I will be able to handle. It is likely that I can set aside material for other collectors. I would be looking to get firm commitments over the next few days while I am on-site, as it may be difficult to get the owners to hold on to it otherwise. Material that may be available include Modcomp IIs, IBM 729 keypunch, 9-track tape drives, and possibly some Honeywell gear. Please contact me if you have a serious interest and ability to remove this sort of gear, about 4.5 hours out of DC. -- Bill From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 21:19:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <207678.46875.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I'm not sure how, using the tools I have to carve > big holes in a > thick aluminum blank panel plate. Would a 3 HP > router and a carbide > bit do it? Ideally, I suppose a vertical mill would > be the "right" > tool, but I don't have access to one. It's better than a Dremel tool. Or a drill and a hacksaw blade with one end wrapped in duct tape. (both methods do work, however) -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 21:44:11 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:44:11 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm not sure how, using the tools I have, to carve big holes in a > thick aluminum blank panel plate. Would a 3 HP router and a carbide > bit do it? Get an engraving bit - that is more or less what they are designed for. If you get one perhaps 1/8 inch diameter, you would only need to file out the corners a little bit. With an 1/8 inch thick panel, you might need to make the cut five or six times, but it will go fast. -- Will From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 14 21:49:43 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:49:43 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <20070814201458.EE576400@fep1.cogeco.net> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> <20070814201458.EE576400@fep1.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <46C269C7.6010800@oldskool.org> Charles Fox wrote: > I have often cut 1/8" aluminum panels with a portable jigsaw. > It's hard on the blade but it works, drill holes in the corners of the > area and away you go. All this talk has inspired me to get a rack. But do such things exist as "personal" racks and/or half-height racks? Or should I be resigned to just finding a full-height rack somewhere for $400 and find a place to put it? (I have only about 10us of stuff to rack -- two scan converters, two computers, that's it...) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Tue Aug 14 21:51:57 2007 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:51:57 +1200 Subject: Connecting to Model EZ135A SyQuest drives Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20070815144713.06b243f0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Does anyone have experience with connecting Model EZ135A SyQuest drives (that read 135MB removeable cartridges) to PCs? I think they were originally sold as external SCSI or parallel port devices. The bare drive that I've got has an IDE type interface, but I'm told they don't identify themselves properly on the IDE bus so that the PC BIOS doesn't recognise them. (I'm trying to find a way to read some old archive disks). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 21:56:02 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:56:02 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >I need to mount some full-height and half-height 5.25" floppy drives >as well as a few 3.5" units on a standard EIA rack. Does anyone have >any ideas about the best way to go about this would be? > >Thanks, >Chuck Hi Chuck Things like SawsAll come to mind or as another suggested, a jigsaw. The one thing to remember, you need to keep what ever tool you use, lubricated. Cutting oil is best but kerosine works fine as well. There are two problems with aluminum. One is that it tends to gall and clog the blade. The other is that the surface tends to oxidize quickly when exposed to air. The oxide is really hard and will dull the blade quickly. Keeping it covered with something that block air from getting to the fresh surface will significantly improve cutting speed and blade life. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Messenger Caf? ? open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Aug 14 21:57:15 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:57:15 -0700 Subject: Need some phenolic G pattern Vectorbord Message-ID: <000501c7dee8$019af560$6601a8c0@downstairs2> I need some small pieces of phenolic G pattern Vectorbord(tm) for my Vintage Computer Festival exhibit. The G pattern has holes on 0.1 by 0.2 inch centers. I need pieces about 3/4 by 1 1/2 inches (or larger). Here is a photo of a sample. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MITS/VectorBord_G.jpg I will trade or pay for it. Does anyone know of someplace that still stocks it? I can reuse old board. I will be reusing the board in the picture. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 22:02:08 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:02:08 -0700 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <889105.74305.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Mr Ian Primus > > >--- Tom Peters wrote: > > > At 03:47 AM 8/14/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > >Does anyone have a spare/old cleaner tape for > > >a DLTtape IV drive? I have one of these drives > > >installed in an old Sun but the 'head clean' > > >light has now illuminated. > > > > If you find a source that's cheap, let me know, as I > > have the same problem. > > I went and purchased same outright. I seem to have > > found the best deal at > > the time at http://www.computergiants.com/ although > > that was some time ago. > > Hi While these cleaner tapes may seem like the way to go, I've never found anything better than actually cleaning the surfaces with a swab. It does require removing covers but it will do much better than a cleaning tap and one can inspect things like guides and rollers. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 14 22:03:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:03:12 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C26CF0.1060708@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>I'm not sure how, using the tools I have, to carve big holes in a >>thick aluminum blank panel plate. Would a 3 HP router and a carbide >>bit do it? > > > Get an engraving bit - that is more or less what they are designed > for. If you get one perhaps 1/8 inch diameter, you would only need to > file out the corners a little bit. With an 1/8 inch thick panel, you > might need to make the cut five or six times, but it will go fast. Mr. Low-tech sez: I don't like doing aluminum with power tools unless I can set up a jig. A hand saw is a lot more work, but for me it's more likely to leave a good-looking product. A decent 6" scroll saw will cost you $14 or so, and blades a couple of bucks. The saw frame will let you set the blade at right angles to the frame itself, and the 6" is the depth of the frame, not the length of the blade. Having said that, if you use the drive cages from scrap PCs, as somebody mentioned, if they're bolted in first they'll make a fine router guide for smoothing up the rough cut. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 14 22:04:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:04:54 -0600 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C269C7.6010800@oldskool.org> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> <20070814201458.EE576400@fep1.cogeco.net> <46C269C7.6010800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46C26D56.3090106@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > All this talk has inspired me to get a rack. But do such things exist > as "personal" racks and/or half-height racks? Umm all the personal racks went out some time after the middle ages. How about a nice IRON MAIDEN instead? :) > Or should I be resigned > to just finding a full-height rack somewhere for $400 and find a place > to put it? (I have only about 10us of stuff to rack -- two scan > converters, two computers, that's it...) I am not sure where to get a cheap rack, but for a custom enclosure you may want to look here. "Chassis Kits & Custom Enclosures" http://home.flash.net/~k3iwk/ Ben alias Woodelf From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 14 22:09:03 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:09:03 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C269C7.6010800@oldskool.org> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> <20070814201458.EE576400@fep1.cogeco.net> <46C269C7.6010800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46C26E4F.6080705@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Charles Fox wrote: > >> I have often cut 1/8" aluminum panels with a portable jigsaw. >> It's hard on the blade but it works, drill holes in the corners of the >> area and away you go. > > > All this talk has inspired me to get a rack. But do such things exist > as "personal" racks and/or half-height racks? Or should I be resigned > to just finding a full-height rack somewhere for $400 and find a place > to put it? (I have only about 10us of stuff to rack -- two scan > converters, two computers, that's it...) http://bhlpower.com/miniraq/html/about.html something like that? Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 14 22:12:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:12:49 -0700 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:02 PM -0700 8/14/07, dwight elvey wrote: >While these cleaner tapes may seem like the way to go, >I've never found anything better than actually cleaning the >surfaces with a swab. It does require removing covers >but it will do much better than a cleaning tap and one >can inspect things like guides and rollers. While I use the cleaning tapes on my 4mm, 8mm, and DLT drives, this is how I clean TK50 and TK70 drives. I don't know if you can still get them but years ago I bought a bottle of tape head cleaning fluid (probably rubbing alcohol) and foam swabs from Rat Shack. This is why I prefer the TK50 to the TZ30, it is easier to remove the top! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Aug 14 22:16:48 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:16:48 -0500 Subject: DLT cleaning tapes Message-ID: <000001c7deea$b7a7a7c0$176fa8c0@obie> Can't find any DLT IV tapes, but I have 3 DLT 1/ DLT VS cleaning cassettes - one almost used up, one half used and one brand new one. Anyone need these? Yours for the cost of postage from 60091 (Illinois). Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 14 22:17:43 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:17:43 -0700 Subject: Connecting to Model EZ135A SyQuest drives In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20070815144713.06b243f0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20070815144713.06b243f0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: At 2:51 PM +1200 8/15/07, Tony Wills wrote: >Does anyone have experience with connecting Model EZ135A SyQuest >drives (that read 135MB removeable cartridges) to PCs? I think they >were originally sold as external SCSI or parallel port devices. The >bare drive that I've got has an IDE type interface, but I'm told >they don't identify themselves properly on the IDE bus so that the >PC BIOS doesn't recognise them. (I'm trying to find a way to read >some old archive disks). After my problems on Sunday I'm wondering if you have an 80 connector cable vs. 40 connector cable problem. Something to try, I've no idea if it will help. The drive is definitely old enough that if you're using an 80 connector cable this might be effecting things. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 23:23:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:23:47 -0400 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) Message-ID: On 8/14/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > All this talk has inspired me to get a rack. But do such things exist > as "personal" racks and/or half-height racks? Or should I be resigned > to just finding a full-height rack somewhere for $400 and find a place > to put it? (I have only about 10us of stuff to rack -- two scan > converters, two computers, that's it...) 6' and taller racks are the most common in my experience, but there were plenty of 4' and shorter racks made, too. I just picked up a really short DEC rack from Patrick at VCFmw. I'd quote the model number, but it's hundreds of miles away and I can't check the label. It was a semi-common item - it originally contained a PDP-11/03 and RX01 and has approx 21" of rack space (12 U) and a wood-grain Formica top. DEC also made a large number of 42" cabinets with a curved-top profile that was meant to be suitable for office or machine-room environments. They will hold 3 RL02s or a CPU and two drives or whatever (approx 18 U, plus room in the bottom-back for a 3 U power controller (with a kick-plate in the front). A bit older than those were some similar-height racks from the 11/34 and PDP-8/e era with 3"-ish-tall 45-degree bevel/bezel on the top-front-edge, but I think those might be a bit rarer. If you want just your "10 U" and not any more, the table-topped rack I described would work. If, OTOH, you would rather have things more than a few inches off the ground, you could use a 42" rack and load it from the top down (and have room in the future for more toys ;-) -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 23:44:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:44:38 -0700 Subject: Connecting to Model EZ135A SyQuest drives In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20070815144713.06b243f0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20070815144713.06b243f0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <46C22246.11853.2A41B80A@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2007 at 14:51, Tony Wills wrote: > Does anyone have experience with connecting Model EZ135A SyQuest drives > (that read 135MB removeable cartridges) to PCs? I think they were > originally sold as external SCSI or parallel port devices. The bare drive > that I've got has an IDE type interface, but I'm told they don't identify > themselves properly on the IDE bus so that the PC BIOS doesn't recognise > them. (I'm trying to find a way to read some old archive disks). I believe the IDE version of the EZ135 as well as the EZFlyer are ATAPI, so you'll need a driver. Fortunately, there are lots of drivers around for them--just do a Google. You'll probably have the best luck finding Win9x versions, though I believe there were DOS drivers also. BTW, the EZFlyer will read (IIRC but not write) the EZ135 carts. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 01:30:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:30:53 -0700 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C23B2D.4391.2AA2FF77@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2007 at 0:23, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you want just your "10 U" and not any more, the table-topped rack I > described would work. If, OTOH, you would rather have things more > than a few inches off the ground, you could use a 42" rack and load it > from the top down (and have room in the future for more toys ;-) I'm assuming that the best way to load a rack is to put the heavy items on the bottom, right? (e.g. a 150 lb. tape drive). An anti- tip outrigger is probably a good idea for the taller racks if you're going to put heavy stuff on top. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 01:35:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:35:43 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46C23C4F.1983.2AA76C6C@cclist.sydex.com> Hi Dwight, I've got both Sawzall (varaible speed) and jigsaw (variable speed, variable orbit), but Claude suggested I simply use a cheap steel spiral-cut drywall bit. He says that I'll pretty much destroy it in the process, but the result done on a router table will be hard to beat. I've also got some very high-speed air-powered rotary cutting tools that I use to cut cast iron, but I suspect aluminum will just gum those up in nothing flat. Cheers, Chuck On 14 Aug 2007 at 19:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > >From: "Chuck Guzis" > > > >I need to mount some full-height and half-height 5.25" floppy drives > >as well as a few 3.5" units on a standard EIA rack. Does anyone have > >any ideas about the best way to go about this would be? > > > >Thanks, > >Chuck > > Hi Chuck > Things like SawsAll come to mind or as another suggested, a jigsaw. > The one thing to remember, you need to keep what ever tool you > use, lubricated. Cutting oil is best but kerosine works fine as well. > There are two problems with aluminum. One is that it tends to > gall and clog the blade. The other is that the surface tends to > oxidize quickly when exposed to air. The oxide is really hard and will > dull the blade quickly. Keeping it covered with something that block > air from getting to the fresh surface will significantly improve > cutting speed and blade life. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Messenger Caf? - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. > Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline > From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 03:22:44 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:22:44 +0100 Subject: DLTtape IV cleaner? In-Reply-To: <200708142252.l7EMq6gh023422@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200708142252.l7EMq6gh023422@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 8/14/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If buying a CleaningTape III on eBay, make sure its still sealed. Same advice applies to the data tapes too, obviously - otherwise who knows what could have happened to them in their lifetime? > Do you really want to be buying cleaning tapes on eBay? What would be likely to be the difference between a "NOS, sealed" CleaningTape III from an eBay vendor as opposed to a "NOS, sealed" CleaningTape III from a retailer? Ed. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 13 08:27:07 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:27:07 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023137@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1187011627.6780.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 08:24 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > You have another option... the video input to a VR201 is NTSC > "composite video", also called RS-170. I see you are in the UK, so an > NTSC monitor might not be as easy to find as a VR201, but will work if > you have one handy. Just about any CCTV monitor, basically. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Aug 13 08:42:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:42:49 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023142@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Thanks.. Yes I knew about the feed another monitor with comp video idea (I do a bit of amateur television) However, a real VT201 has turned up in the UK. This is going to be really nice, I have a huge heap of software all specifically for the Rainbow. Or will it be "How much have I forgotten in 25 years" Next task = find the colour graphics adapter that goes with the Rainbow (after making sure this one has not got one) Regards Rod. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 13 August 2007 13:24 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus On 8/10/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I am now the owner of a DEC Rainbow 100 Plus.... > The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is shot. > > So... > I need: > > a) A replacement tube. > > or > > b) a Digital VR201-A , -B or -C > > or > > d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ > > > Anybody knowing the whereabouts any of the above please contact me. You have another option... the video input to a VR201 is NTSC "composite video", also called RS-170. I see you are in the UK, so an NTSC monitor might not be as easy to find as a VR201, but will work if you have one handy. I made a DA15-RCA cable years ago to hook a VR201 to an Amiga 2000 that I used as a hardware test platform (so I didn't care about a lack of color). I have to admit that I haven't "gone the other way" and used a non-DEC monitor on a Rainbow, but there's no reason to expect it won't work. I recently saw my Amiga cable, but the VR201, unfortunately, fell off the workbench some years ago, and the tube bit the dust. I pitched the plastic housing and saved the analog board, IIRC. -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 13 10:31:14 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:31:14 +0100 Subject: Can someone tell me what this means? In-Reply-To: References: <46BD7DA2.22529.181EA309@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB197.146.18E99A34@cclist.sydex.com> <46BDB8EE.507.190643A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1187019074.6780.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Sat, 2007-08-11 at 16:39 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > There are lots of Linux customers that tend to want all their software > for free. It is part of the culture. Actually, the important part is free as in speech, rather than free as in beer. I don't mind paying for software, just as I don't mind paying for any other tools. I want the source code though. I might want to modify things. Gordon From Veronica_Bell at mindspring.com Mon Aug 13 16:58:06 2007 From: Veronica_Bell at mindspring.com (Veronica Bell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:58:06 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on VT284 and VT286 Message-ID: <000001c7ddf5$08b40510$6d01a8c0@VBELL2> Hello Dan, How are you? This is Veronica @ EPM. I am looking for a VT-284 Computer. Would you happen to have one in stock? Please email me and let me know what price and a leadtime on it. Thanks! EPM Veronica Bell 809 Tradesmen Park Lp, A Hutto, Texas ph-512-759-2325 fax-512-846-2570 email:veronica_bell at mindspring.com website: electronicprecision.com From peter at vroomvroomvroom.com Mon Aug 13 17:03:52 2007 From: peter at vroomvroomvroom.com (Peter Thornton) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:03:52 +0100 Subject: For sale: Kyotronic KC-85 portable Message-ID: <045f01c7ddf5$d605d160$6601a8c0@clarise> Are you still selling this for $50? Please let me know. Kind regards. Peter From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Aug 13 18:27:42 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:27:42 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023145@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I am part way there in that a kind list member has found a VR201 for me. However having gone through the box of items that came with the Rainbow. Lo and behold the colour/graphics card, its installation manual and its programming manual are all there. My aim for all of my DEC collection is to get the systems back to the condition that they left the factory in. As to software, anything that would have been available to run on the system during its normal life, is a collection target. An now for a quick off topic excursion. I bid for on EBay and got at a very low price an HP DesignJet 750CPlus A0 plotter. Somebody had broken inkjet rule number one. "Never never use refilled or non HP cartridges" They refill them through the vent hole. This enlarges it, air gets in and it leaks. The ink catchment reservoir overflows and ink gets everywhere. So I was presented with a plastic end shell full of low grade black ink. Desperate measures were called for. I turned the pressure washer loose on it. The results were amazing the ink went into solution and got flushed away. Result one totally clean cover. So, at your own risk, dirty plastic may respond to careful use of a pressure washer. So phaseII is to locate a VR241 which is the 13" RGB colour monitor that would have been used with the Rainbow when it was current equipment. The Rainbow is specified to work with both monitors attached. Rod Smallwood (The DEC Collector) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 13 August 2007 22:10 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus > > Hi > I am now the owner of a DEC Rainbow 100 Plus. (10mb Hard Drive and > all) > Its just like the one I had on my desk at DECPark circa 1981=20 The > good news is its got loads of software with it. > The bad news is the tube in the VR201 monitor is shot. > The screen has mould between the tube and bonded on faceplate. > No amount of standard adjustment will make it bright enough to read in > normal lighting. > So... > I need: > =20 > a) A replacement tube. IIRC, the CRT is a pretty generic one, a 7 pin (modified B7G base) with 11.5V heater. I usepect (without trying it) that any 12" 90 degree deflection CRT with those cheacteristics will work. Last time I needed a CRT (to repair a somewhat odd terminal), I found the easiest/cheapest way to get one was to buy a monochrome portable TV and raid it for the CRT. But can you still buy monochrome protable TVs? > =20 > or=20 > =20 > b) a Digital VR201-A , -B or -C =20 > or > =20 > d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ e) A normal TV-rate composite monitor and the right cabling. Basically, you have to wire up an RJ11 socket to the right 4 pins on the DA15 connector for the keyboard, and take composite video (and ground) from another 2 pins. By default the 'bow uses US rates, but I think you can set it to 50Hz vetical on one of the setup menus, so it should be close then to UK rates. Let me know if you want to do this and I can dig out the pinouts, etc. -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 14 04:53:57 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:53:57 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: <1187085237.18867.17.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 18:08 +0100, Julian wrote: > So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can > people bring? No point stressing over space, power and helipads if there > are only a dozen people likely to exhibit with 'smaller' systems. I'd probably bring my PDP-11/73 and possibly the MicroVAX 3300. If RL02s are happy to be shipped on their sides, I'd bring the whole PDP rack (when I got the thing I had the drives on their sides in the car, because I couldn't find anything to say not to do that in the handbook). Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 14 05:09:56 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:09:56 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: <200708131707.l7DH6MSS080708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1187086196.18867.20.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 12:20 -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: > > d) A colour graphics card for a DEC Rainbow. 100+ > > That still leaves you seeking an NTSC-rate color monitor, though, > such as a VR-241. I think those may actually be harder to locate than > VR-201's. A lot of TVs that have SCART connectors will lock at NTSC rates. Not totally ideal as a monitor, but better than nothing. I've got my TV to lock at all kinds of mad frequencies, playing about with a VGA-to-SCART cable and strange modelines in X. Gordon From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Aug 15 02:16:00 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:16:00 -0700 Subject: Source for TK50 Compactapes? Message-ID: <46C2A830.9070103@msu.edu> Can anyone recommend a good source for Compactapes for a TK50? With all this talk of TK50s & DLT tapes I'm reminded that I have a PDP 11/83 and a MicroVAX 2000 that I'd like to write some OS tapes for, but lack media... I see a few for sale here and there on eBay but I'm not sure I want to go that route yet... Thanks... Josh From nathank at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 16:07:56 2007 From: nathank at gmail.com (Nathan Korman) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:07:56 -0700 Subject: SGI Onyx2 Reality Monster For Sale Message-ID: <3d906e480708141407h45fd73d6gd5787eb99331a321@mail.gmail.com> Located in a climate controlled warehouse in Santa Clara, CA Unable to Power up to get HINV, sorry. Silicon Graphics, Onyx2 Reality Monster 5 Racks, one with MMSC Display (5 MMSC Modules) 4 x 18GB IBM Hard Drives 4mm Tape / exobyte 8 mm Tape / CD Rom 16 Processors (??? Mhz) 12 GB Ram 6 Graphics Pipes 4 x RM-9 per pipe Infinite Reality 2 Graphics Engine 6 x GE-16 6 x DG5-2 6 x xtown 6 x ktown Craylink & Crosstown Cables, Monitor Connection Cables Any reasonable offer considered. -Nate From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 16:30:04 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EF360U CMS Enhancements Parallel External 5.25" Floppy Drive Message-ID: <112698.52272.qm@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Does anyone have the DOS drivers for the EF360U CMS Enhancements (or CMS Products) Parallel External 5.25" Floppy Drive? If so, please post them or send them to my email. I am looking for them as part of a request on USENET comp.os.cpm for a portable external 5.25" floppy disk drive to recovery legacy data from vintage microcomputers. Thanks in advance if you can help. It is much appreciated. Andrew Lynch From les at hildenbrandt.com Tue Aug 14 20:07:39 2007 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:07:39 -0600 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 Plus CRT Message-ID: <46C251DB.9030905@hildenbrandt.com> You might try taking your CRT to a television repair shop and asking to have the CRT "rejuvenated". There is a piece of equipment they may have which will bring back the brightness on your CRT for quite some time. My experience has been one to two years added life the first time the process is used. Additional applications are less successfully. Here is a link to the equipment used for this process on ebay. I have this same piece of equipment and have done hundreds of CRTs with it. http://cgi.ebay.com/Beltron-System-Picture-Tube-Restorer_W0QQitemZ290149557606QQihZ019QQcategoryZ25422QQcmdZViewItem There is another type of equipment which is made for the same thing which works by sending a spark (high voltage discharge) between the elements in the CRT, I have destroyed picture tubes with that type of equipment. Good luck! Les From fcwapp99 at 163.com Tue Aug 14 21:08:46 2007 From: fcwapp99 at 163.com (fcwapp99) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:08:46 +0800 (CST) Subject: Sydex Floppy Driver Message-ID: <24283979.87251187143726897.JavaMail.coremail@bj163app41.163.com> Sydex Floppy Driver I want to find a Sydex Floppy Driver Plase HELP Me!!a file of sydexfdd.sys5.1 / Windows (R) 2000 DDK provider of otherVersior thank you ! From doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com Tue Aug 14 21:10:52 2007 From: doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:10:52 +1000 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: <200708141710.l7EH9Xxj098525@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708141710.l7EH9Xxj098525@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46C260AC.40105@ewa-australia.com> Sellam - When I was in school, we had a perfectly functional PDP 11/45 with VT52 terminals (about 16 or so of them). The machine was in the computer room, with all of the hardware accessible (I remember getting into strife when I wrote a program to output human readable text strings to the PTP......) One semester break, they rolled out the DEC machine, and rolled in a Prime. It was horible, and none of us actually got any useful work done for the first couple of months, while we came to grips with the new operating environment. I can't actually say that it was nicer to use than the PDP 11.... It was newer and shinier. (And it lacked the paper tape punch) In fact, I would suggest that the system was so despised by its users, that they had to put it into a cage at the back of the room, because people kept resetting it. The cage didn't work, because somebody discovered that you could still use a long broom handle to hit the reset switch..... Makes you wonder about the sanity of replacing a system that could be kept out in the open, where people didn't muck with it, because it "Just Worked" (tm), with another system that was so despised that users wanted to turn it off? Sorry, no, you won't find an emulator from anybody who enjoyed the DEC hardware..... Doug From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 15 02:34:54 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:34:54 +0100 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1187163294.7855.13.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 00:23 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you want just your "10 U" and not any more, the table-topped rack I > described would work. If, OTOH, you would rather have things more > than a few inches off the ground, you could use a 42" rack and load it > from the top down (and have room in the future for more toys ;-) Or get a 42" rack and a saw, and make two 21" racks ;-) Gordon From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 15 07:39:59 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:39:59 -0500 Subject: Connecting to Model EZ135A SyQuest drives In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20070815144713.06b243f0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <200708151143.l7FBhiA3009436@hosting.monisys.ca> > Does anyone have experience with connecting Model EZ135A SyQuest drives > (that read 135MB removeable cartridges) to PCs? I think they were > originally sold as external SCSI or parallel port devices. The bare drive > that I've got has an IDE type interface, but I'm told they don't identify > themselves properly on the IDE bus so that the PC BIOS doesn't recognise > them. (I'm trying to find a way to read some old archive disks). I have a few EZ135 drives kicking around here - Two parallel ones that I can find, and an IDE one that I can't at the moment - so I can't verify that it exactly the same model as you mentioned, but it probably is. The IDE drive is a true IDE drive, and you can talk to it without special drivers - I used to use one as a boot drive at one point. There are a couple of caveats however: 1) IIRC the drive does not detect/report itself correctly, and you need to set up a manual drive type. According to the manual (which I did find), the settings are: Heads: 16 Cylinders: 512 Sectors/Track: 32 Write Precomp: 0 Landing Zone: 0 (Obviously these don't match the physical layout!) 2) You can't remove the cartridge without the EZ135 drivers - otherwise it is not known as a removable device. So make sure the disk is inserted at boot time and remains in the drive until you shutdown. In case you want them, I have placed ImageDisk images of the EZ135 IDE install disks (I found those too!) at: www.dunfield.com/pub/index.htm Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 07:45:48 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Source for TK50 Compactapes? In-Reply-To: <46C2A830.9070103@msu.edu> Message-ID: <10968.81291.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Josh Dersch wrote: > Can anyone recommend a good source for Compactapes > for a TK50? With all > this talk of TK50s & DLT tapes I'm reminded that I > have a PDP 11/83 and > a MicroVAX 2000 that I'd like to write some OS tapes > for, but lack > media... I see a few for sale here and there on > eBay but I'm not sure I > want to go that route yet... Yeah, me too :). I have two TK50 cartridges, one of which isn't in great shape (found jammed in a drive). I have done some testing, and guess what - DLTIII cartridges DON'T work in TK50 drives. Of course, the media is different by a factor of three or more in terms of coercivity, but, just in case anyone was wondering... One thing I was wondering - open reel 9 track tape seems to be pretty close in terms of orsted rating to the TK50 cartridges. I have contemplated taking this one half-reel of magtape I have (got eaten in the TU81. Bad drive.) and spooling some into a dud DLTIV cartridge shell (modifying it to fit in the TK50, of course). Anyone tried this? -Ian From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Aug 15 08:33:27 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:33:27 +0000 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting Message-ID: <081520071333.25895.46C300A7000E040E0000652722070215539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >Message: 14 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reminds me of the old-time custom of making rack panels out of 1/4" >masonite. I was thinking about 1/4" polycarbonate and a router (the >machine tool, not the network gear). My favorite source for aluminum sheet for making brackets, supports, cases, etc., is a cookie baking sheet. They are a lot less expensive than buying metal sheet at a hardware store. Bob From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Aug 15 08:54:07 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:54:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Connecting to Model EZ135A SyQuest drives In-Reply-To: <46C22246.11853.2A41B80A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2007 at 14:51, Tony Wills wrote: > > > Does anyone have experience with connecting Model EZ135A SyQuest drives > > (that read 135MB removeable cartridges) to PCs? I think they were > > originally sold as external SCSI or parallel port devices. The bare drive > > that I've got has an IDE type interface, but I'm told they don't identify > > themselves properly on the IDE bus so that the PC BIOS doesn't recognise > > them. (I'm trying to find a way to read some old archive disks). > > I believe the IDE version of the EZ135 as well as the EZFlyer are > ATAPI, so you'll need a driver. Fortunately, there are lots of > drivers around for them--just do a Google. You'll probably have the > best luck finding Win9x versions, though I believe there were DOS > drivers also. BTW, the EZFlyer will read (IIRC but not write) the > EZ135 carts. Greetings all; I've owned an EZ135 for many years now - two in fact, as the first one magically caught fire one day by itself (cough). The EZ135 will appear on an IDE bus without any tricks - although I've never tried it on an 80 line cable. I have all of the DOS drivers on diskette if you'd like me to mirror them for you, but they're definitely too old to include Win9x support. While I haven't used the drive under a Microsoft OS in many, many years, the unit works flawlessly under Linux. It even correctly responds to the 'eject' command :) JP Hindin From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 15 10:07:43 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:07:43 -0500 Subject: Connecting to Model EZ135A SyQuest drives In-Reply-To: References: <46C22246.11853.2A41B80A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708151414.l7FEE7Q2056609@keith.ezwind.net> > I have all of the DOS drivers on diskette if you'd like me to > mirror them for you, but they're definitely too old to include Win9x > support. FWIW the disk images I posted earlier consists of three 1.4M diskettes which have drivers for DOS, Win95 and OS/2. As noted earlier, unless you need to use it as a removable drive, you can get away without any special drivers at all. I've also got a three disk set for the parallel port version of the drive if anyone needs them. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 15 09:37:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:37:35 -0600 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <081520071333.25895.46C300A7000E040E0000652722070215539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <081520071333.25895.46C300A7000E040E0000652722070215539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46C30FAF.1050007@jetnet.ab.ca> feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >> Reminds me of the old-time custom of making rack panels out of 1/4" >> masonite. I was thinking about 1/4" polycarbonate and a router (the >> machine tool, not the network gear). > > My favorite source for aluminum sheet for making brackets, supports, cases, etc., is a cookie baking sheet. They are a lot less expensive than buying metal sheet at a hardware store. > Bob All the ones I can find are Name Brand teflon coded ... blah blah Just like trying to find a real 'bread board' to build a one tube radio on. :( Any how you can buy a blank panel at http://home.flash.net/~k3iwk/ From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 10:15:01 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:15:01 -0500 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730708150815u598157c7u364abe467151f9d7@mail.gmail.com> On 8/14/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I just picked up a really short DEC rack from Patrick at VCFmw. I'd > quote the model number, but it's hundreds of miles away and I can't > check the label. It was a semi-common item - it originally contained > a PDP-11/03 and RX01 and has approx 21" of rack space (12 U) and a > wood-grain Formica top. Jim, you should have taken the Gandalf that I passed up at VCFmw :) The place I've seen the most half-height racks has been music stores, like Sam Ash or Guitar Center (in our area.) The downside is that most of them are made of MDF, not metal, so may not hold a 150lb tape drive or the like. And some have rack rails only on the front, as they're mostly intended to hold short, light f/x units. From cctech at retro.co.za Wed Aug 15 10:22:54 2007 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:22:54 +0200 Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <200708071703.l77H2O6q046708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all Drove up to Johannesburg from Cape Town (about a thousand miles each way) to rescue stuff. Osborne Acorn RISC PC 2 x Archimedes (no keyboards) SAM Coupe Spectrum + DISCiple interface SGI Indy SGI Indigo SGI O2 SUN Ultra 1 I had to leave two of the four monitors behind, no space in the VW Fox, but I did get an Indy presenter. And five or six cameras. Left one SGI monitor (both the Indigo and the O2 can use VGA monitors) and the SUN monitor (I have one available here). Will fetch them some other day. Moral question : I have Solaris 2.5, Solaris 8 and Ubuntu Linux. The Ubuntu complains about not enough memory (there's only 64 megs in there). But I'm more of a Linux guy than a Solaris guy... I did get a few CDs with Irix stuff, including the development stuff, seems like, and Irix 6.2 "upgrade". I'm sure I'll need more than this to get the SGIs up? The Indy looks fine but the O2 only comes up now and then. Havn't tried any of the rest yet. So... tips, tricks, etc? And who has SDIMMs for me? Or for that matter SGI memory sticks, they look pretty weird... W From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 10:36:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:36:44 -0700 Subject: Sydex Floppy Driver In-Reply-To: <24283979.87251187143726897.JavaMail.coremail@bj163app41.163.com> References: <24283979.87251187143726897.JavaMail.coremail@bj163app41.163.com> Message-ID: <46C2BB1C.6649.2C96BB78@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2007 at 10:08, fcwapp99 wrote: > Sydex Floppy Driver I want to find a Sydex Floppy Driver Plase HELP > Me!!a file of sydexfdd.sys5.1 / Windows (R) 2000 DDK provider of > otherVersior thank you ! Please contact Sydex directly. This driver was only offered to OEMs for integration into their own packages, not as a stand-alone product. You should also contact the vendor who sold you the package that SYDEXFDD appears in to see if they have received their update from us. Sydex's mail email address is info (at) sydex.com. Thanks, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 10:38:00 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <492143.59948.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Wouter wrote: > Drove up to Johannesburg from Cape Town (about a > thousand miles each way) > to rescue stuff. > > Osborne > Acorn RISC PC > 2 x Archimedes (no keyboards) > SAM Coupe > Spectrum + DISCiple interface > SGI Indy > SGI Indigo > SGI O2 > SUN Ultra 1 Nice score. > Moral question : I have Solaris 2.5, Solaris 8 and > Ubuntu Linux. The Ubuntu > complains about not enough memory (there's only 64 > megs in there). But I'm > more of a Linux guy than a Solaris guy... Linux should run just fine on the Ultra 1 - I have used Debian on many an old Sun, and it runs well. Nothing's stopping you from putting Linux on a Sun. If you want to play with Solaris, you could just swap out the hard drive. Solaris is picky about drives, Linux could care less. Also, when running Linux, you can use most any PCI card you want. > I did get a few CDs with Irix stuff, including the > development stuff, seems > like, and Irix 6.2 "upgrade". I'm sure I'll need > more than this to get the > SGIs up? The Indy looks fine but the O2 only comes > up now and then. On the Octane, pull all the boards out and _carefully_ blow out the connectors with compressed air. Don't touch the compression connectors at the end of the board, but clean them off. This is a pretty common problem - they use a really fancy gold springy interconnect that gets dusty (or finger oily) and won't work. Best blow/vacuum out the whole machine, the top vents of those tend to accumulate dust and crud like a dryer lint trap. Good luck! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 10:41:08 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <468600.90588.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > The Indy looks fine but the O2 only comes > up now and then. Ah hah - I found the "proper" instructions for cleaning those connectors. http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi/hdwr/bks/SGI_EndUser/books/Octane_OG/sgi_html/apb.html -Ian From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Aug 15 10:48:45 2007 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Anthony L. Eros) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:48:45 -0400 Subject: Comdyna GP-6, Minivac 601 documentation Message-ID: <1d8a90eb21ce4bf581b64c90ef6c0740@mail34.safesecureweb.com> Does anyone have documentation sets for either of these systems? I seem to recall a while back that someone had a full set of Minivac manuals that were going to be scanned, but I never heard anything more. Also, I recently picked up a GP-6 and am looking for a user's guide or other operations manuals. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. -- Tony From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Aug 15 12:18:01 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:18:01 -0800 Subject: Source for TK50 Compactapes? In-Reply-To: <46C2A830.9070103@msu.edu> References: <46C2A830.9070103@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46C33549.7060105@socal.rr.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Can anyone recommend a good source for Compactapes for a TK50? With all > this talk of TK50s & DLT tapes I'm reminded that I have a PDP 11/83 and > a MicroVAX 2000 that I'd like to write some OS tapes for, but lack > media... I see a few for sale here and there on eBay but I'm not sure I > want to go that route yet... > > > Thanks... > Josh > I'd say ask here first. Several of us I think have various types of media sitting around looking for a good place to go. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 15 12:33:03 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:33:03 -0700 Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: At 5:22 PM +0200 8/15/07, Wouter wrote: >Drove up to Johannesburg from Cape Town (about a thousand miles each >way) to rescue stuff. *NICE* haul! >Moral question : I have Solaris 2.5, Solaris 8 and Ubuntu Linux. The >Ubuntu complains about not enough memory (there's only 64 megs in >there). But I'm more of a Linux guy than a Solaris guy... With only 64MB Solaris 8 is out. Personally I'd recommend OpenBSD, as 64MB should be surprisingly roomy, and quite nice on an Ultra 1. I've run it in as little as 48MB on an Alpha. >So... tips, tricks, etc? And who has SDIMMs for me? Or for that >matter SGI memory sticks, they look pretty weird... The Indigo uses 72-pin parity SIMM's, the O2 uses proprietary RAM, not sure about the Indy. For the problems with the O2, make sure everything is seated properly. I really like O2's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 14:32:40 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:32:40 -0500 Subject: The storage question Message-ID: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Not disk, but physical space. I broke down yesterday and did what I said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a storage unit. So now I've got ~1500 ft^3 to help take the pressure off my living space. I may soon see my floors again! Being in the midwest, where we expereince just about every temperature and humidity condition, what do I have to worry about with storing old systems, media, etc in near-outdoor conditions (the unit is not climate-controlled?) The unit will be dry, at least as far as rain, leaks and flooding go. I don't think cold is a big problem, as long as I don't run any equipment that was out in -20F weather without allowing it to assume room temp first. How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and tapes there. Humidity seems like it would be the killer. I'll be storing my magazines there for a while, and I plan to wrap them all in plastic before boxing them. Maybe the same for magnetic media. Ideally I'd have a raised-floor datacenter at 65F degrees and the humidity control of a humidor, but circumstances are what they are, and it's this or start throwing stuff out :) Any advice is appreciated! -- jht From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 14:41:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:41:12 -0400 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/15/07, Jason T wrote: > Not disk, but physical space. I broke down yesterday and did what I > said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a storage unit... > > Being in the midwest... what do I have to worry about with storing old > systems, media, etc in near-outdoor conditions Mice. > I don't think cold is a big problem, as long as I don't run any > equipment that was out in -20F weather without allowing it to assume > room temp first. -20F isn't so much of a problem as rampant fluctuations or summer heat in a storage barn over 120F. > How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and tapes there. I would be. I store some things in climate-uncontrolled spaces, but never floppies or magtapes. > Humidity seems like it would be the killer. I'll be storing my > magazines there for a while, and I plan to wrap them all in plastic > before boxing them. Maybe the same for magnetic media. You might consider throwing a humisorb pack in the bag. -ethan From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 15 14:47:01 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:47:01 -0600 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C35835.8050709@e-bbes.com> Jason T wrote: > How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and tapes there. I always had my computes in starage, but disks and media (tapes/floppies/etc) at home. Still can read my tapes from the 70's. Cheers From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 15 14:50:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Aug 15, 2007 02:32:40 PM Message-ID: <200708151950.l7FJoO0e010966@onyx.spiritone.com> > How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and tapes there. I'd recommend keeping any magnetic media you care about at home. I only wish I'd listen to my own advice (though most is at home). Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 14:54:47 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:54:47 -0400 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Any advice is appreciated! Now you must concentrate on how to get rid of the rented storage space. It will bleed you dry. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 14:55:01 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <241009.59940.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > Not disk, but physical space. I broke down > yesterday and did what I > said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a > storage unit. So > now I've got ~1500 ft^3 to help take the pressure > off my living space. Welcome to the club :). You have now officially joined the brotherhood of computer collectors. > I may soon see my floors again! You say that now, but nature abhors a vacuum. Once that space is cleared, something will take its place. > I don't think cold is a big problem, as long as I > don't run any > equipment that was out in -20F weather without > allowing it to assume > room temp first. Yeah, and be careful of condensation too. Best to make sure hardware is back to room temperature (and take the covers off and look for moisture) first. > How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and > tapes there. I try to avoid storing tapes or disks in storage units for this very reason. I don't know what will happen either, and I'd rather not risk it :). > Humidity seems like it would be the killer. I'll be > storing my > magazines there for a while, and I plan to wrap them > all in plastic > before boxing them. Maybe the same for magnetic > media. Yeah, I haven't had much problem with humidity here, but it's good practice to wrap important things in plastic first. Keeps bugs and critters out too. I haven't had any problems with storage conditions, I'm in the New England area, so we don't get the humidity like the midwest (I used to live in Indiana, so I know how it is...). I also try only to store things like monitors, spare parts, cabinets, computers and misc hardware - stuff that won't be damaged by heat or cold. Depending on where you live, the humidity could be a real problem. Dessicant packs and plastic wrap might be a good choice, especially if you're packing really important things. Be careful what you store - and remember, you want to _store_ mice(plastic), not attract them(fuzzy). > Ideally I'd have a raised-floor datacenter at 65F > degrees and the > humidity control of a humidor, Ohh, me too. Nice, big room, raised floor, big aircons, tons of power, and all hooked up to the magic alien reactor in the corner that generates all the power you'd need. But, reality is what it is. And a little extra space is always nice. Good luck! -Ian From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Aug 15 15:56:44 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:56:44 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C3688C.5010208@tdh.com> I've had a storage space for way too many years now, and here's some of the problems I face. The changing temperatures and humidity in the air isn't too bad, however the storage units themselves is a different beast. Most of them are concrete floors, and a drafty but mostly sealed metal building. I've not really had problems with any rain/water getting in (they design them with slab higher than street level and on a slope) and the roofs have been fairly good. The problem I get is just the dirt and dust and other crap that falls from the ceiling and generally settles. Anything you want clean, you WILL want to cover with a tarp or sheets. This actually makes the air cool near the ground during the summer, but humid hot to the top. Perfect for metal to attract moisture and rust. I've found monitors near the ground (even raised up on pallets) wet to the touch on the glass, and rust slowly eating away steel parts like screws, and even full chassis. I have even old Macs where the metal cage inside the plastic is rusting. During the winter, things just "freeze" and thaws slowly throughout the spring and even into summer. Causes the moldy books/magazines and musty smell, along with more of the rust and general decomposition. I do not put any magnetic or disk media if I can help it in storage, and I try to get it off the ground or layer "junk" near the ground and put the better stuff on top. Also helps to air out during the spring\fall when it isn't humid yet, and let things normalize. If there are things that will attract moisture, like paper, etc near the ground it will actually get wet and rot. I've had cardboard boxes just mush. If anyone has a solution to the moisture/rust problems, I'd love to know! Mike Jason T wrote: > Not disk, but physical space. I broke down yesterday and did what I > said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a storage unit. So > now I've got ~1500 ft^3 to help take the pressure off my living space. > I may soon see my floors again! > > Being in the midwest, where we expereince just about every temperature > and humidity condition, what do I have to worry about with storing old > systems, media, etc in near-outdoor conditions (the unit is not > climate-controlled?) The unit will be dry, at least as far as rain, > leaks and flooding go. > > I don't think cold is a big problem, as long as I don't run any > equipment that was out in -20F weather without allowing it to assume > room temp first. > > How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and tapes there. > > Humidity seems like it would be the killer. I'll be storing my > magazines there for a while, and I plan to wrap them all in plastic > before boxing them. Maybe the same for magnetic media. > > Ideally I'd have a raised-floor datacenter at 65F degrees and the > humidity control of a humidor, but circumstances are what they are, > and it's this or start throwing stuff out :) > > Any advice is appreciated! > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 16:48:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:48:41 -0700 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C3688C.5010208@tdh.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com>, <46C3688C.5010208@tdh.com> Message-ID: <46C31249.20416.2DEB4187@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2007 at 15:56, Michael Lee wrote: > If anyone has a solution to the moisture/rust problems, I'd love to know! Well, other than slathering cosmoline over everything that can be corroded, how about this? Packing/sealing with heavy 6-mil poly sheet and tape every single seam with duct tape. Provided, of course, you can pack a load of some dessicant inside, or purge with dry nitrogen. For smaller equipment, semi-vacuum seal bags are made that can be deflated using a vacuum cleaner hose. They have a valve on them, so they can be reused. I know a fellow who packs his smaller musical instruments in seal-a- meal bags before they go to the warehouse. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 15 17:01:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:01:46 -0600 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <241009.59940.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <241009.59940.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C377CA.5050402@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Ohh, me too. Nice, big room, raised floor, big > aircons, tons of power, and all hooked up to the magic > alien reactor in the corner that generates all the > power you'd need. Well Now I know why aliens are green and glow in the dark. > But, reality is what it is. And a little extra space > is always nice. What about insurance for damage or loss? You can replace a stored sofa or a old dresser but a classic computer is *hard* to replace. > Good luck! Same here. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 16:43:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:43:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023145@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 14, 7 00:27:42 am Message-ID: > So phaseII is to locate a VR241 which is the 13" RGB colour monitor that > would have been used with the Rainbow when it was current equipment. The > Rainbow is specified to work with both monitors attached. YEs, you can use both the mono and colour monitors on the 'bow, but you need a special cable (and specialk programming?) Let me explain. The colour video card outputs _4_ video signals, which I call R, G, B, Mono. The 'Mono' signal is mixed with the text video from the 'VT100' circuit on the 'bow mainboard. This is the composite video signal that's sent to the VR201 (yes, you can use a mono monitor with the graphics card) The standard colour monitor is a sync-on-green TV rate analogue colour monitor. The standard cable connects it to R, Mono, B (to the R,G,B inputs on the monito), the 'G' output of the colour card is not used. This means you get green text from the mainboard circuit, and colour graphics. You can make a cable to connect a mono monitor to the 'mono' signal and the colour monitor to the R,G,B signals. You then get the mainboard video on the mono monitor only (along with grpahics, if you program the CLUT correctly), and colour grpahics on the colour monitor. I can send you details of the cabling if you want it Be warend that the real VR241 is a horrbile thing. It's actually a Hitachi chassis, complete with the well-known thick-film circuit in the vertical deflection stage. The PSU is plain crazy, the chopper is driven (indirectly) by a windign on the flyback (line output) transformer. So for the PSU to run, the horizontal deflection circuit has to be working properly. To get it started, there's an astable multivibrator o nthe PSU board that is disabled shortly after power-up, but which gets the chopper going for long nwnough that the delfection circuits can rattle into life. Debugging one of thise is 'fun' for suitable values of 'fun'. Just about all the likely-bits-to-fail have to be working before it'll do anything at all... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 18:00:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:00:01 -0700 Subject: More on racks... Message-ID: <46C32301.15396.2E2C9128@cclist.sydex.com> Just found a couple of pages on DIY racks: http://rack.modzone.dk/Worklog_rack.htm http://foobar.wykehamist.com/index.php?id=5 I think that the wooden version (second) would look very nice as a tabletop unit. I'd probably use "biscuits" for the corners unless I wanted to impress folks with my woodworking skill, then I'd make the box of Bolivian rosewood with dovetailed joints... Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Aug 15 19:49:48 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:49:48 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C39F2C.6010206@oldskool.org> Jason T wrote: > Being in the midwest, where we expereince just about every temperature > and humidity condition, what do I have to worry about with storing old > systems, media, etc in near-outdoor conditions (the unit is not > climate-controlled?) The unit will be dry, at least as far as rain, > leaks and flooding go. Without actual climate control, humidity may grow mold on your stuff. This might be a factor in choosing what goes in there. > How about heat? I'm worried about floppies and tapes there. Don't put any magnetic media in an uncontrolled storage space. My personal opinion... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 15 20:02:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070815180157.K24650@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007, Jason T wrote: > Not disk, but physical space. I broke down yesterday and did what I > said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a storage unit. So > now I've got ~1500 ft^3 to help take the pressure off my living space. > I may soon see my floors again! not for long! Boyle's law says that you will now acquire more stuff to fit the available space. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 22:11:45 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:11:45 -0500 Subject: Source for TK50 Compactapes? In-Reply-To: <46C33549.7060105@socal.rr.com> References: <46C2A830.9070103@msu.edu> <46C33549.7060105@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <624966d60708152011y4c4cf29cg8f788df854442eeb@mail.gmail.com> I have a hundred or so, and about a thousand other types.I think the TK50 tapes were about $10 each or 3 for $25. Paul On 8/15/07, Mike Ford wrote: > > Josh Dersch wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a good source for Compactapes for a TK50? With all > > this talk of TK50s & DLT tapes I'm reminded that I have a PDP 11/83 and > > a MicroVAX 2000 that I'd like to write some OS tapes for, but lack > > media... I see a few for sale here and there on eBay but I'm not sure I > > want to go that route yet... > > > > > > Thanks... > > Josh > > > I'd say ask here first. Several of us I think have various types of > media sitting around looking for a good place to go. > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 22:23:48 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:23:48 -0500 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60708152023n1f2ee586p3c811f638e21a142@mail.gmail.com> On 8/14/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 8/14/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > > All this talk has inspired me to get a rack. But do such things exist > > as "personal" racks and/or half-height racks? Or should I be resigned > > to just finding a full-height rack somewhere for $400 and find a place > > to put it? (I have only about 10us of stuff to rack -- two scan > > converters, two computers, that's it...) > > 6' and taller racks are the most common in my experience, but there > were plenty of 4' and shorter racks made, too. > > I just picked up a really short DEC rack from Patrick at VCFmw. I'd > quote the model number, but it's hundreds of miles away and I can't > check the label. It was a semi-common item - it originally contained > a PDP-11/03 and RX01 and has approx 21" of rack space (12 U) and a > wood-grain Formica top. > > DEC also made a large number of 42" cabinets with a curved-top profile > that was meant to be suitable for office or machine-room environments. > They will hold 3 RL02s or a CPU and two drives or whatever (approx 18 > U, plus room in the bottom-back for a 3 U power controller (with a > kick-plate in the front). These were probably H9612, H9613, or H9642's. A bit older than those were some > similar-height racks from the 11/34 and PDP-8/e era with 3"-ish-tall > 45-degree bevel/bezel on the top-front-edge, but I think those might > be a bit rarer. Sounds like the H967. Paul If you want just your "10 U" and not any more, the table-topped rack I > described would work. If, OTOH, you would rather have things more > than a few inches off the ground, you could use a 42" rack and load it > from the top down (and have room in the future for more toys ;-) > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 22:32:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:32:12 -0400 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: <624966d60708152023n1f2ee586p3c811f638e21a142@mail.gmail.com> References: <624966d60708152023n1f2ee586p3c811f638e21a142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/15/07, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 8/14/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > DEC also made a large number of 42" cabinets with a curved-top profile > > that was meant to be suitable for office or machine-room environments... > > > These were probably H9612, H9613, or H9642's. Those numbers all look familiar, especially the H9642. I think I have a few of those. > A bit older than those were some > > similar-height racks from the 11/34 and PDP-8/e era with 3"-ish-tall > > 45-degree bevel/bezel on the top-front-edge > > Sounds like the H967. That's the one. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 22:47:33 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:47:33 -0700 Subject: Comdyna GP-6, Minivac 601 documentation Message-ID: > From: tony.eros at machm.org> Subject: Comdyna GP-6, Minivac 601 documentation> > Does anyone have documentation sets for either of these systems? I seem to recall a while back that someone had a full set of Minivac manuals that were going to be scanned, but I never heard anything more.> > Also, I recently picked up a GP-6 and am looking for a user's guide or other operations manuals.> > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.> > -- Tony Hi Tony The GP-6 has basic docs on the web someplace. I have a GP-20 but the principles are the same. They have a fast and a slow setting for the integrators. It also has a reset for these as well. If you don't find the Comdyna stuff with a search, I can look for you. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Aug 15 23:25:05 2007 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:25:05 -0400 Subject: shorter 19" racks (1 - 4 available .on.ca) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >6' and taller racks are the most common in my experience, but there >were plenty of 4' and shorter racks made, too. I have a 42" DEC rack available in SW Ontario, and should have up to three more short racks available once I eventually finish reorganizing. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Aug 15 23:53:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:53:46 -0500 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708150815u598157c7u364abe467151f9d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708150815u598157c7u364abe467151f9d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C3D85A.8060208@oldskool.org> Jason T wrote: > Jim, you should have taken the Gandalf that I passed up at VCFmw :) I knew someone was going to point that out sooner or later :-) I got the impression from talking to the vendor (name escapes me at the moment) that the Gandalf was a non-standard size. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 16 00:02:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:02:03 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting In-Reply-To: <46C26E4F.6080705@mdrconsult.com> References: <46C187B6.7851.27E5F96D@cclist.sydex.com> <287929.984.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C1A737.25436.28610B8D@cclist.sydex.com> <20070814201458.EE576400@fep1.cogeco.net> <46C269C7.6010800@oldskool.org> <46C26E4F.6080705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46C3DA4B.9010906@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > http://bhlpower.com/miniraq/html/about.html > > something like that? While intriguing, I need to get at the front of the controls (it's video gear). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 15 05:58:26 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:58:26 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023154@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Yes I knew about the comp video. Fortunatly a kind list member has a VT201 I can have. Now the hunt is on for a VT241. That's the companion DEC 13" RGB colour monitor. Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: 13 August 2007 14:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 08:24 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > You have another option... the video input to a VR201 is NTSC > "composite video", also called RS-170. I see you are in the UK, so an > NTSC monitor might not be as easy to find as a VR201, but will work if > you have one handy. Just about any CCTV monitor, basically. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 15 06:59:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:59:25 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting Message-ID: <0JMT003A5DAV90YE@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:59:35 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 14 Aug 2007 at 11:11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> Well, if you want the cheap-and-dirty way to do it (my >> favorite way!) you could use a piece of 1/4" plywood >> as a faceplate, cut square holes in it the size of a >> full height 5 1/4" drive, and scavenge some drive >> frames from junked PC mid-tower cabinets. Screw the >> drive frames to the back of the plywood, and paint the >> plywood to match the cabinet. The weight of the floppy >> drives shouldn't be enough so that it needs any more >> support than a few rack screws drilled through the >> edges of the plywood. > >Reminds me of the old-time custom of making rack panels out of 1/4" >masonite. I was thinking about 1/4" polycarbonate and a router (the >machine tool, not the network gear). I could make the side rails >from the same, just solvent-cemented to the front. > >I'm not sure how, using the tools I have to carve big holes in a >thick aluminum blank panel plate. Would a 3 HP router and a carbide >bit do it? Ideally, I suppose a vertical mill would be the "right" >tool, but I don't have access to one. Hand held saber saw (aka jigsaw) with metal blade does fine. I made the disk shelf for my PDP11 (RX33, RD52s, uVAX2000 powersupply, enable/writelocks buttons from BA123). Front plate was a blank and the shelf was another sheet of .100 Aluminum plus some supports salvaged from various older defunct machines. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From briandixson at tiscali.co.uk Wed Aug 15 15:50:56 2007 From: briandixson at tiscali.co.uk (Brian Dixon) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 21:50:56 +0100 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) Message-ID: <00a701c7df7d$fa962b40$0200a8c0@OFFICE01> Hi Chris, I was looking at your thread relating to the Data I/O Manual and understand you have the manuals. I picked a System19 unit up a couple of years ago and it came with the Unipack & 001, 011 Adapters. The manual I have only relates to the Adapter Codes & I have no info on the Unipack Codes for Programming Chips. Do you have a copy of the codes as Data I/O are no help at all. Many thanks Best regards Brian From james at machineroom.info Wed Aug 15 17:34:03 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:34:03 +0100 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C37F5B.7080504@machineroom.info> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Has anyone developed a simulator for Prime machines? The Oracle of WWW > says no. > Yes, take a look at comp.sys.prime for the details. It's running on a Sony PS/3 and available for public use. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 15 18:07:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:07:45 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902315C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Thanks for the detailed information. Having found the full set of docs in the box plus my what I remember from DEC, as I was there when this kit was current. I had a general idea as to how it worked. As my other hobby is amateur television (I build ATV repeaters) at least I was able to understand what you said. As to the VR241 I agree. A non working one would be a bit of a challenge. I'm trying to think of another DEC RGB monitor from around that time that might have been used. Do you know I can't actually remember if the one I had at DEC had one monitor or two. My best guess is I had one VR241 on my desk. I certainly used the Rainbow VT220 mode to talk to the SWS VAX for email, printing etc. Yes that's right email in 1983! DEC had a system called AllInOne or DECmail and IBM's system was called PROFS. There were standard DEC cables for the one/two monitor configuration. However I can make up cables from a diagram if needed. Thanks and Regards Rod Smallwood (Now seeking any DEC RGB monitor current between 1982 and 1990) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 15 August 2007 22:43 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus > So phaseII is to locate a VR241 which is the 13" RGB colour monitor > that would have been used with the Rainbow when it was current > equipment. The Rainbow is specified to work with both monitors attached. YEs, you can use both the mono and colour monitors on the 'bow, but you need a special cable (and specialk programming?) Let me explain. The colour video card outputs _4_ video signals, which I call R, G, B, Mono. The 'Mono' signal is mixed with the text video from the 'VT100' circuit on the 'bow mainboard. This is the composite video signal that's sent to the VR201 (yes, you can use a mono monitor with the graphics card) The standard colour monitor is a sync-on-green TV rate analogue colour monitor. The standard cable connects it to R, Mono, B (to the R,G,B inputs on the monito), the 'G' output of the colour card is not used. This means you get green text from the mainboard circuit, and colour graphics. You can make a cable to connect a mono monitor to the 'mono' signal and the colour monitor to the R,G,B signals. You then get the mainboard video on the mono monitor only (along with grpahics, if you program the CLUT correctly), and colour grpahics on the colour monitor. I can send you details of the cabling if you want it Be warend that the real VR241 is a horrbile thing. It's actually a Hitachi chassis, complete with the well-known thick-film circuit in the vertical deflection stage. The PSU is plain crazy, the chopper is driven (indirectly) by a windign on the flyback (line output) transformer. So for the PSU to run, the horizontal deflection circuit has to be working properly. To get it started, there's an astable multivibrator o nthe PSU board that is disabled shortly after power-up, but which gets the chopper going for long nwnough that the delfection circuits can rattle into life. Debugging one of thise is 'fun' for suitable values of 'fun'. Just about all the likely-bits-to-fail have to be working before it'll do anything at all... -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 16 03:22:19 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:22:19 +0200 Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <200708071703.l77H2O6q046708@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20070815171535.0eca3140@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <20070816102219.47e009b9@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:22:54 +0200 Wouter wrote: > I had to leave two of the four monitors behind, I don't care any longer about monitors. They are generic parts, easy to replace. I simply don't have the space to store an extra monitor for every machine. > Moral question : I have Solaris 2.5, Solaris 8 and Ubuntu Linux. The > Ubuntu complains about not enough memory (there's only 64 megs in > there). But I'm more of a Linux guy than a Solaris guy... You may try NetBSD. 64 MB is a bit low if you want to run memory hogs like Mozialla / Firefox, KDE or GNOME. But it will be pretty OK with somthing like fvwm. If you try NetBSD I recommend a -current snapshot from ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD-daily/HEAD I use NetBSD on a U2 and a U60 with X11 and it works well. > I did get a few CDs with Irix stuff, including the development stuff, > seems like, and Irix 6.2 "upgrade". I'm sure I'll need more than this > to get the SGIs up? I recommend IRIX 6.5. Installation instructions are here: http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/6.5inst.html It also tells you what CDs you will need. > The Indy looks fine but the O2 only comes up now and then. The O2 is a bit fragile. Try to "kreidler" it. I.e. disconnect everything, unplug all boards and put it back together again. > So... tips, tricks, etc? And who has SDIMMs for me? Or for that matter > SGI memory sticks, they look pretty weird... The Sun U1 and SGI O2 memory is proprietary. The Indy uses PS/2 parity SIMMs. Max. is 256 MB RAM. The RAM for the Indigo depends on the CPU board. The old R3k CPU board uses the same proprietary SIMMs like the Personal IRIS 4D[23][05]. The later R4k Indigo uses PS/2 parity SIMMs like the Indy. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 16 06:32:34 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3c509b cards to good home Message-ID: Some time ago I asked if anyone wants a pair of 3c509b ISA ethernet cards. Someone replied, but I lost the email. Who wants them? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 08:27:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:27:14 -0400 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <20070815180157.K24650@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> <20070815180157.K24650@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46C450B2.5090407@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Not disk, but physical space. I broke down yesterday and did what I >> said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a storage unit. So >> now I've got ~1500 ft^3 to help take the pressure off my living space. >> I may soon see my floors again! > > not for long! > > Boyle's law says that you will now acquire more stuff to fit the available > space. Either that, or your collection will supercool? Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 09:03:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:03:56 -0700 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) Message-ID: > From: briandixson at tiscali.co.uk> > Hi Chris,> > > > I was looking at your thread relating to the Data I/O Manual and understand> you have the manuals.> > > > I picked a System19 unit up a couple of years ago and it came with the> Unipack & 001, 011 Adapters.> > > > The manual I have only relates to the Adapter Codes & I have no info on the> Unipack Codes for Programming Chips.> > > > Do you have a copy of the codes as Data I/O are no help at all.> > > > Many thanks> Hi Brian I thought Al had a chart on his pdf pages but all I see are manual. I have a wall chart with codes but it is two large to fit into a copier. I can try to copy a bit at a time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Messenger Caf? ? open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 16 09:15:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:15:20 -0600 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:03:56 -0700. Message-ID: In article , dwight elvey writes: > I thought Al had a chart on his pdf pages but all I see are manual. I have= > a wall chart with codes but it is two large to fit into a copier. I can tr= > y to copy a bit at a time. Maybe take overlapping digital stills and stitch them together? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 09:16:34 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:16:34 -0500 Subject: shorter 19" racks (was Re: Suggestions for rackmount floppy mounting) In-Reply-To: <46C3D85A.8060208@oldskool.org> References: <51ea77730708150815u598157c7u364abe467151f9d7@mail.gmail.com> <46C3D85A.8060208@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730708160716o4b532157ief67d201fe5abf67@mail.gmail.com> On 8/15/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > I knew someone was going to point that out sooner or later :-) > I got the impression from talking to the vendor (name escapes me at the > moment) that the Gandalf was a non-standard size. Hmm, may well have been. And this would have been something I'd have discovered *after* getting it home :) From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Aug 16 10:43:36 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:43:36 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <200708161332.l7GDVaAe037344@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708161332.l7GDVaAe037344@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 8:32 -0500 8/16/07, Jason wrote: >Not disk, but physical space. I broke down yesterday and did what I >said I'd never do to support my habit: I've rented a storage unit. So >now I've got ~1500 ft^3 to help take the pressure off my living space. > I may soon see my floors again! I echo what other list members have said. You will catch a brief glimpse of floor, before it gets buried in more classic computer gear. Might as well clean, vacuum, wax, or whatever, this week, since it'll be the last chance you ever get. Here's a suggestion. Make 3 prioritized lists (examples below from my collection): 1) With which of the machines I have do I intend to do something? a) Mac Plus - port distributed.net to this b) HP 712 - port distributed.net to this c) Color Computer 3 - program pythagorean triplet search in assembler d) PB3400 - port distributed.net to this .... y) SE-30 - no projects in mind z) Rainbow - no projects in mind 2) Which of the machines I have is really unique or irreplaceable? a) Rainbow, with graphics, hard drive, and 8087 co-processor b) Mac Plus with Brainstorm Accelerator c) NeXT cube with Dimension card d) PDP-11/60 .... y) SE-30 - stock z) Color Computer 3 - stock 3) To which of my machines have I the strongest sentimental attachment? a) Mac Plus - *my* first computer, did my college and grad work on it b) Rainbow - my second computer, duplicate of first machine I assembled c) NeXT cube - my first workstation, totally rocks ... y) SE-30 - scavenged from bottom of closet at work z) PDP-11/60 - waiting for another list member to come pick up :-) Now identify any machine that's on the bottom half of all three lists. In my case, it'd be the SE-30. Put all such machines on Vintage Computer Marketplace *this weekend*. Charge something above "cost of shipping" (since stuff that is acquired free is often thrown away) to be sure the thing has value to its new owner. If no bids on VCM in 2 weeks, put it on eBay, no minimum bid. If no bids on eBay in 2 weeks, *lose it* the cheapest way you can. Goodwill Computerworks, Apple electronics recycling, donate to a local private school, donate to one of the existing or nascent computer museums, whatever. Make sure this process takes less than 2 weeks. If no takers for freebies within 2 weeks, dumpster it. Better a quick death and you don't have to pay for storage while it rusts/deteriorates/loses magnetization for the hard drive bits. If you keep it, it'll die eventually anyway and you'll pay for it (fiscally and emotionally) over the decades it takes to die. During the 2-week VCM and eBay bid periods, expend round tuits on the top end of list 1 above. Having accomplished what you intended, re-evaluate lists (systems will move down list 1 but probably simultaneously up list 3). Repeat process until you can get rid of the storage unit. I say this because "storage unit" == "garbage dump" in my experience, it just takes longer and costs more. Once put into a storage unit, most equipment is dead - it'll never serve or run again, because of the trouble to dig it out and the damage done to it by humidity, time, dust, rodents, and neglect. In my opinion, if you can't climate-control the sensitive parts of your collection and store all of it such that you can be using any part of it within about 10 minutes' of the impulse striking, the collection is too big for you. Of course, YMMV! FWIW, my (relatively small) collection is climate-controlled, with the exception of monitors and the PDP-11/60 (CPU and power supply only), which are in the attic (where it gets hot, but since there's wood flooring and decent ventilation, no obvious humidity/mold problems.) So no, you won't see the SE/30 on VCM this weekend. But there are some printers that I really should dispose of.... >Any advice is appreciated! Heh. Sure hope you meant that literally; apologies if not. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 11:54:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:54:53 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? Message-ID: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> In an EETimes online article today, I read the following paragraph: "Among its other features, Morrison said COSA allows more dynamic changes in software than traditional methods, enables fast pre- empting of threads and brings a new level of traceability to processes. It is also easier to debug because it does not use the structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code popular in conventional programming languages." Nested "IF-THEN-ELSE" is now spaghetti code? I'd always understood the term to mean code with lots of conditional GOTO statements (In FORTRAN, sprinkle in a bunch of computed and assigned GOTOs and you're talking real pasta). When did the meaning change? Was it when the GOTO statement was pretty much deprecated in just about every modern programming language? I can recall when "structured programming" was popularly held to mean "no GOTOs". Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 12:06:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:06:11 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > In an EETimes online article today, I read the following paragraph: > > "Among its other features, Morrison said COSA allows more dynamic > changes in software than traditional methods, enables fast pre- > empting of threads and brings a new level of traceability to > processes. It is also easier to debug because it does not use the > structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code > popular in conventional programming languages." > > Nested "IF-THEN-ELSE" is now spaghetti code? I'd always understood > the term to mean code with lots of conditional GOTO statements (In > FORTRAN, sprinkle in a bunch of computed and assigned GOTOs and > you're talking real pasta). > > When did the meaning change? Was it when the GOTO statement was > pretty much deprecated in just about every modern programming > language? I can recall when "structured programming" was popularly > held to mean "no GOTOs". I don't think the meaning has changed. I think the person who was talking doesn't really know spaghetti code when he sees it. I draw the line at computed GOTO. I wouldn't even consider conditional GOTO to be "spaghetti". Although, I might consider assembler code where every second instruction is a jump to be spaghetti code. Peace... Sridhar From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Aug 16 12:11:24 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:11:24 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <200708161702.l7GH1DsJ040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsJ040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46C44CFC020000370000EAB2@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chuck asks: > Nested "IF-THEN-ELSE" is now spaghetti code? IMHO it's worse in most cases now. #ifdefs up the wazoo in C source code are beyond imagination. They aren't even executed run-time but clutter up everything! Sure, gnu config helps mechanize the process but when a problem is so bad it results in new tools being created to mechanize the badness it's a sure sign that something's gone off the deep end. Computed gotos are really pretty nifty. Alternative returns (as in Fortran) are really just wonderful for bugging out of deeply nested errors, way way better than a bunch of if-then-elses. Don't forget: A good FORTRAN programmer can write spaghetti code in any language! Tim. From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Aug 16 12:25:30 2007 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:25:30 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> > "... It is also easier to debug because it does not use the > structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code > popular in conventional programming languages." ... > When did the meaning change? It hasn't. Let's just say that the quoted speaker has his own take on things. http://www.vsmerlot.com/ Click the "Wasn't the GOTO" link to see what he's talking about. Then take a look at the QuickSort example, to see how he's brought new clarity to the ghastly confusion of the usual coded implementation. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 12:29:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:29:41 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C42715.3763.32247D14@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2007 at 13:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Although, I might consider assembler code where every second instruction > is a jump to be spaghetti code. The old CDC FTN compiler had a routine to process COMMON and EQUIVALENCE storage allocation (i.e. EQUIVALENCE-d items in COMMON). It was done as a state machine composed of uncommented ASSIGN-ed GOTOs (without the possible targets listed in each GOTO statement itself--some FORTRANs let you get away with that). At least with a computed GOTO, you had an idea of what the legitimate targets of the GOTO were. I'll never forget it. The universal reaction was "Don't touch it-- you might break it--and nobody knows how it works." Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 12:30:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:30:16 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <46C489A8.3040808@gmail.com> Brian Knittel wrote: >> "... It is also easier to debug because it does not use the >> structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code >> popular in conventional programming languages." > ... >> When did the meaning change? > > It hasn't. Let's just say that the quoted speaker has > his own take on things. > > http://www.vsmerlot.com/ > > Click the "Wasn't the GOTO" link to see what he's > talking about. > > Then take a look at the QuickSort example, to see how he's > brought new clarity to the ghastly confusion of the > usual coded implementation. ?! Yuck! Maybe a hard-core mathematician would want to write code like that, but not me! Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 12:42:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:42:15 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <46C42A07.30237.322FFF1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2007 at 10:25, Brian Knittel wrote: > Then take a look at the QuickSort example, to see how he's > brought new clarity to the ghastly confusion of the > usual coded implementation. Why...it's so CLEAR and SIMPLE! NOT! :) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 16 12:47:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C450B2.5090407@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708151232iddad75am33c155917f7f390c@mail.gmail.com> <20070815180157.K24650@shell.lmi.net> <46C450B2.5090407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070816104353.O55964@shell.lmi.net> > > Boyle's law says that you will now acquire more stuff to fit the available > > space. On Thu, 16 Aug 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Either that, or your collection will supercool? Having been around when most stuff has been dragged to the curb, the only supercool collections that I can imagine would be ones with a lot of stuff from before my time ("where can I get an Antikytherian device?"), or full of machines that I have never had any real chance of owning, such as 1401, 1620, 360/94, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 16 12:49:55 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:49:55 -0700 Subject: The storage question Message-ID: <46C48E43.610738D1@west.net> > If no takers for freebies within 2 weeks, dumpster it. Better > a quick death and you don't have to pay for storage while it > rusts/deteriorates/loses magnetization for the hard drive bits. If > you keep it, it'll die eventually anyway and you'll pay for it > (fiscally and emotionally) over the decades it takes to die. > - Mark, 210-379-4635 I will rarely dumpster anything computer related ... at least intact :). The motherboards and cards usually have enough gold to be of some interest to gold scrappers (Pax may have more to say about this!) Personally, I have a box that I toss old cards into and sell them every six months to a year. Depending on the gold content, I usually get somewhere around $0.50 - $1.00 per pound. No idea if this is good/bad/indifferent but it sure beats giving it away to the electronic recyclers (we can't through electronics into the dumpster here in Kalifornia.) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 08:58:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:58:58 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C42A07.30237.322FFF1D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> <46C42A07.30237.322FFF1D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C45822.5010503@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Then take a look at the QuickSort example, to see how he's >> brought new clarity to the ghastly confusion of the >> usual coded implementation. > > Why...it's so CLEAR and SIMPLE! NOT! :) Indeed. I think I'd have an easier time writing machine code directly in hex. That guy doesn't seem to grasp that many real world problems have solutions that "evolve". A lot of the time, a programmer isn't *completely* sure exactly how the program logic will work until it's well on its way to being written, no? I mean, I'll have a general idea on how everything will fit together, but I'll get the details done as I come across them. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 09:06:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:06:06 -0400 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C48E43.610738D1@west.net> References: <46C48E43.610738D1@west.net> Message-ID: <46C459CE.60300@gmail.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: >> If no takers for freebies within 2 weeks, dumpster it. Better >> a quick death and you don't have to pay for storage while it >> rusts/deteriorates/loses magnetization for the hard drive bits. If >> you keep it, it'll die eventually anyway and you'll pay for it >> (fiscally and emotionally) over the decades it takes to die. > >> - Mark, 210-379-4635 > > I will rarely dumpster anything computer related ... at least intact :). The > motherboards and cards usually have enough gold to be of some interest to gold > scrappers (Pax may have more to say about this!) Personally, I have a box that I > toss old cards into and sell them every six months to a year. Depending on the > gold content, I usually get somewhere around $0.50 - $1.00 per pound. No idea if > this is good/bad/indifferent but it sure beats giving it away to the electronic > recyclers (we can't through electronics into the dumpster here in Kalifornia.) Hell, I've even got decent money for boards with mercury switches on them. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 16 13:24:50 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:24:50 -0600 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C45822.5010503@gmail.com> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> <46C42A07.30237.322FFF1D@cclist.sydex.com> <46C45822.5010503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C49672.7000303@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That guy doesn't seem to grasp that many real world problems have > solutions that "evolve". A lot of the time, a programmer isn't > *completely* sure exactly how the program logic will work until it's > well on its way to being written, no? I mean, I'll have a general idea > on how everything will fit together, but I'll get the details done as I > come across them. More like when managent decides they need a new feature but only when the customer pays for it and then it is needed *yesterday*. > Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 16 13:26:48 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:26:48 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <46C496E7.DEA4D872@cs.ubc.ca> Brian Knittel wrote: > > > "... It is also easier to debug because it does not use the > > structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code > > popular in conventional programming languages." > ... > > When did the meaning change? > > It hasn't. Let's just say that the quoted speaker has > his own take on things. > > http://www.vsmerlot.com/ > > Click the "Wasn't the GOTO" link to see what he's > talking about. > > Then take a look at the QuickSort example, to see how he's > brought new clarity to the ghastly confusion of the > usual coded implementation. Well, that was all quite hilarious. The site also presents a good example of how some people need some appreciation for history (or should we assume malice instead of ignorance?): "Using COSA technology the company is capable of demonstrating how to eliminate the need for software developers." Thousands have made that claim starting in the 50s with "Automatic Programming". From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 09:36:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:36:11 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C496E7.DEA4D872@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> <46C496E7.DEA4D872@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46C460DB.6030509@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, that was all quite hilarious. > The site also presents a good example of how some people need some > appreciation for history (or should we assume malice instead of ignorance?): > > "Using COSA technology the company is capable of demonstrating how to > eliminate the need for software developers." > > Thousands have made that claim starting in the 50s with "Automatic Programming". And let's not forget DigiTalk PARTS Workbench. Peace... Sridhar From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 13:46:38 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:46:38 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV Message-ID: On an old Spenser Tracy, Kate Hepburn movie called "Desk Set" playing on the Family Movie Channel. 1957 Looked like an IBM 700 series computer. Unfortunitely it was only shown during the opening credits. Story is about installing an IBM computer in a TV Studio. Mostly a situational comedy. I am not sure I will stick around toii see if it show up later. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 09:50:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:50:17 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C49672.7000303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> <46C42A07.30237.322FFF1D@cclist.sydex.com> <46C45822.5010503@gmail.com> <46C49672.7000303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46C46429.7000406@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> That guy doesn't seem to grasp that many real world problems have >> solutions that "evolve". A lot of the time, a programmer isn't >> *completely* sure exactly how the program logic will work until it's >> well on its way to being written, no? I mean, I'll have a general >> idea on how everything will fit together, but I'll get the details >> done as I come across them. > > More like when managent decides they need a new feature but only when > the customer > pays for it and then it is needed *yesterday*. Indeed. Coping with that particular eventuality with one of these giant state tables must be a nightmare. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 16 14:01:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C49672.7000303@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Aug 16, 2007 12:24:50 PM Message-ID: <200708161901.l7GJ116G022056@onyx.spiritone.com> > More like when managent decides they need a new feature but only when the > customer pays for it and then it is needed *yesterday*. You've got that right. Though recently I had the fun of telling them the new feature they wanted was already in place. :^) Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 10:17:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:17:21 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <200708161901.l7GJ116G022056@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200708161901.l7GJ116G022056@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <46C46A81.7010606@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> More like when managent decides they need a new feature but only when the >> customer pays for it and then it is needed *yesterday*. > > You've got that right. Though recently I had the fun of telling them the > new feature they wanted was already in place. :^) I love it when that happens. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 15:01:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:01:50 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C45822.5010503@gmail.com> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46C42A07.30237.322FFF1D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C45822.5010503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C44ABE.20597.32AFC8E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2007 at 9:58, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That guy doesn't seem to grasp that many real world problems have > solutions that "evolve". A lot of the time, a programmer isn't > *completely* sure exactly how the program logic will work until it's > well on its way to being written, no? I mean, I'll have a general idea > on how everything will fit together, but I'll get the details done as I > come across them. This reminds me of hardware sequencers that use a ROM and a few latches. The glue around it is simplicity itself, but the toasted gray matter that goes into actually working out the sequencer table to keep the hardware simple is another story. Of course, this guy probably thinks that yacc is fluff and writes his own LALR parser tables from scratch. Cheers, Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Aug 16 15:39:49 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:39:49 -0700 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27B67841-C621-46C9-BFC9-296649D932C6@loomcom.com> On Aug 14, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Has anyone developed a simulator for Prime machines? The Oracle of > WWW > says no. I can't think of Prime Computers without thinking of this ad, now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Zf8oKuPYo Oh Dr. Who, why did you sell out? And for a Prime, no less! ;) -Seth From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 16:42:19 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:42:19 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: References: <200708161332.l7GDVaAe037344@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> On 8/16/07, Mark Tapley wrote: > ...lots of good stuff... > >Any advice is appreciated! > > Heh. Sure hope you meant that literally; apologies if not. Indeed! And thanks to everyone for piping in on this. It's great to hear from so many on the subject. So far, I've distilled this: - The consensus does seem to be "no tapes or disks," which won't be a big problem for me as they don't take up much space and can be kept at home. I do have some boxed original software (CBM, Apple, etc) I'd like to store because of its bulk. I suppose I can extract the disks in most cases and take my chances with the shrink-wrapped stuff. - Paper will be a problem, as I had hoped to move a magazine collection there at least through the winter. It was suggested that allowing it to "breathe" is better than keeping it (and an amount of moisture) trapped inside plastic would be the better choice. Perhaps leaving them boxed but without plastic, plus a desiccant of some kind (a bag of silica gel in each box?) might do the job. - Concrete floors = dust and moisture. The storage facility itself is basically a garage - 10x15ft, about 9-10ft high with a large sliding door. The floor is heavily painted concrete (apparently thanks to the previous tenant as no others were like this.) I'm thinking a false floor constructed of bricks and plywood plus a plastic tarp might help keep the bottom items dry. - Things are going to rust. See moisture problems above. I guess it isn't unreasonable to wrap a uVax II in plastic with a bag of silica inside. - I'm going to abuse the newfound space and just get more crap until I can't move around my house. Quite likely. That will be a matter of willpower on my part. Thanks to Mark Tapley for a great rundown of his method of self-control. :) Despite the storage, I'm still going to have a packed basement, garage, closets and office. But the stuff has started to occupy permanent positions in the kitchen, dining room, living room, etc. No comps, classic or otherwise, in the bathrooms as of yet. I'm hoping I can develop a "one (or two) projects at a time" mentality this way, keeping a lot of excess gear down the road a bit might help me focus and see things through to completion. Yeah, I know, good luck on that too :) This has also made me rethink my plans for moving to a new house (perhaps in a year or so.) Part of my criteria was enough outdoor space that I could build a large garage or barn to hold all my gear, but even if I managed that it would be unheated/cooled, much like a storage facility, and thus only fit for certain storage. Perhaps I should just settle for a large (dry) basement. OK, this is becoming too much like a 12-step support group. Back to our regularly scheduled collecting... -- jht From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Aug 16 09:15:54 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:15:54 +0100 Subject: Various items in Essex England Message-ID: I'm in the process of preparing to move house and some stuff is just going to have to go! If I don't get serious expressions of interest* within a week they are going. (* A "hell no, that's too rare to throw away" might lead to a stay of execution ... but unless quickly followed-up won't do much good) Items will have to be collected - they are currently part of the contents of a 20' container in a small industrial estate near the A127/A130 junction (not far from Rayleigh). It is just possible that I can be persuaded to make one trip up to Bletchley if there is interest there. For the moment I have 3 classifications: SUN stuff Apple Mac stuff Other The SUN and "other" items that don't get interest here will find their way into a skip. The Mac stuff is to be considered one lot (take it all or nothing) and if no interest here will go to eBay (and then to a skip if no interest) Haven't yet inventoried the SUNs - there are several 10s, 20s, a couple of 5s and some Ultras - at least a 1, some 30s, possibly a 60, possibly a 10 loads of MBUS and SBUS modules including lots of ROSS processors also some memory and SCSI drives. (I'll be keeping a couple more SUNs) In the "other" category are, at least, the following personal DECstation 5000/25 DEC 3000 400 Silicon Grapics O2 (this has Irix 6.5 - but I don't have a known id password ... and it uses SGs own filesystem so I can't just put the disk on a SUN and hack it that way. a few other weird and wonderful boxes and other minor items (such as the board set for connecting two Novell servers together in a SFT III setup) An unusual PC - dual P90 with PCI and EISA slots (2 adaptec SCSI boards) an A3 plotter - cannot remember whether it is HP or Roland when I get round to finding it there'll also be a HP unix workstation various home computers of the BBC & ST/Amiga eras (not yet sorted) The Mac list is quite long a SE, a IICi, Quadra 650 Powermacs - 6100/60 (x2) 8600/230, 8500/180, G3 (x2) these have all worked, but testing last week only got fully positive results from the 8600 and one of the G3s also some keyboards, monitors, books, and software I'm still delving into my garage, loft, and spare bedroom ... more may yet be found :-) email me if you are seriously interested - reply to the list if you think someone else should be :-) Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release Date: 15/08/2007 16:55 From jrr at flippers.com Thu Aug 16 10:04:18 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:04:18 -0700 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:03 AM -0700 8/16/07, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: briandixson at tiscali.co.uk> > Hi >Chris,> > > > I was looking at your thread >relating to the Data I/O Manual and understand> >you have the manuals.> > > > I picked a System19 >unit up a couple of years ago and it came with >the> Unipack & 001, 011 Adapters.> > > > The >manual I have only relates to the Adapter Codes >& I have no info on the> Unipack Codes for >Programming Chips.> > > > Do you have a copy of >the codes as Data I/O are no help at all.> > > > >Many thanks> >Hi Brian > I thought Al had a chart on his pdf pages but >all I see are manual. I have a wall chart with >codes but it is two large to fit into a copier. >I can try to copy a bit at a time. >Dwight > >_________________________________________________________________ >Messenger Caf? - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, >cool activities served daily. Visit now. >http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline There are a few Data I/O sites scattered around the Internet. I have a section in my ftp area devoted to lists, images, etc. ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment/DATA-IO ROM/PROM lists are in the FAMILY section at the rear of the PDF manuals of the 29B directory, and a few .txt lists are in the UNIPAK2B directory This is mirrored on a number of other sites, so go easy on the download volume or I'll have to limit access... John :-#)# From d-salafia1 at ti.com Thu Aug 16 11:42:08 2007 From: d-salafia1 at ti.com (Salafia, David) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:42:08 -0500 Subject: Fluke Dos Question Message-ID: <1E65310C3C9FCC4AAE66BA8952B9842D01BF5E4C@dlee11.ent.ti.com> Stan, I was looking for a copy of the operating system for a FLuke 1722. Where I work we had 3 copies and the night shift folks tried all 3 copies before realizing it was a bad drive. These disk each offer different symptoms but are all bad I suspect. How can I get you to get me a copy of this or help me figure out how to save these disks? Any and all help would be appreciated. David Salafia Texas Intruments From Philip.Hastings at pseg.com Thu Aug 16 12:48:03 2007 From: Philip.Hastings at pseg.com (Hastings, Philip R.) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:48:03 -0400 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual Message-ID: <133E54D164BDF042906DE1517458E33001F091AE@NJNBUMX05.enterprise.pseg.com> To Whom it may Concern, I saw a link on the net about you having two Interdata 7/32's. Do you still have and if so would you be willing to sell if were in the same ballpark as far as revision on the hardware is concerned? I am tasked with supporting two of these ( yes they are still in production here). Thanks Phil Hastings 856-339-1879 ----------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail, including any attachment(s), is intended solely for use by the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, or a person designated as responsible for delivering such messages to the intended recipient, you are not authorized to disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message, in whole or in part, without written authorization from PSEG. This e-mail may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. This notice is included in all e-mail messages leaving PSEG. Thank you for your cooperation. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 16 13:46:34 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:46:34 +0100 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <1187289994.11389.0.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-08-16 at 10:25 -0700, Brian Knittel wrote: > > "... It is also easier to debug because it does not use the > > structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code > > popular in conventional programming languages." > ... > > When did the meaning change? > > It hasn't. Let's just say that the quoted speaker has > his own take on things. > > http://www.vsmerlot.com/ > > Click the "Wasn't the GOTO" link to see what he's > talking about. I would, but the site has broken CSS, so when I hover my mouse over the link the whole thing jitters up and down. Gordon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 16 16:58:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C496E7.DEA4D872@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200708161702.l7GH1DsL040262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46C4261A.19537.503B4E@brian.quarterbyte.com> <46C496E7.DEA4D872@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070816145711.I71087@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Using COSA technology the company is capable of demonstrating how to > eliminate the need for software developers." > Thousands have made that claim starting in the 50s with "Automatic Programming". false advertising: I had so hoped that "The Last One" would keep their promise! From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 16 17:00:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:00:08 -0500 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com>; from cclist@sydex.com on Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 09:54:53AM -0700 References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070816170008.A23986@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 09:54:53AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nested "IF-THEN-ELSE" is now spaghetti code? No, it is not. Article is wrong. But saying "GOTOS = Spaghetti code" is also wrong. Spaghetti Code is any code that is "hard to follow", ie. the execution thread (and the meaning behind it) is obtuse and difficult to understand. It has nothing to do with what language is being used. It's possible to write spaghetti code in any language, really. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 16 17:07:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:07:16 -0500 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com>; from ploopster@gmail.com on Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 01:06:11PM -0400 References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 01:06:11PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Although, I might consider assembler code where every second instruction > is a jump to be spaghetti code. Actually, I'd consider the opposite. In assembler with something like: cmp ax,01 je @1 cmp ax,02 je @2 ...etc, at least you know what the value is that is causing the jump. With a jump table, you have to do some digging. I'm still going to code jump tables, obviously, but the former is easier to understand to someone looking at the code for the first time. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 17:42:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:42:01 -0700 Subject: Another rack question Message-ID: <46C47049.25674.334270F9@cclist.sydex.com> I understand that there are standards for the width of an EIA rack, as well as bolthole size and spacing on the rails, but is there any sort of standard for *depth* of an EIA rack? The one I have measures 28 3/4" front rail to rear rail, which I suspect is deeper than usual. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 16 17:47:46 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:47:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <967647.56720.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Jason T wrote: *>> snip <<* plus a desiccant of some kind (a bag of silica gel in each box?) might do the job. Where can you buy silica gel for home/storage use? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 17:51:07 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:51:07 -0500 Subject: Unibus, qbus, Shortbus? Message-ID: <51ea77730708161551q6f8e586x775c9220c7d223aa@mail.gmail.com> It appears I need to take the bus to DEC101: I have a MicroVax II in the BA23 case. I'd like it to have a SCSI card. This machine takes qbus cards, I believe. I recently acquired a CMD CDU-720 card, which appears to be a nice (and nicely documented) card that supports all kinds of devices, and speaks MSCP to the Vax. But, it is Unibus. Am I out of luck here? I gather there are bus converters. Are they rare? Are they reliable? Should I save this card for the day I happen upon bigger iron? Thanks! -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 17:53:30 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:53:30 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <967647.56720.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> <967647.56720.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708161553y3fa4b701lf4f6cd62e8fc4f06@mail.gmail.com> On 8/16/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > Where can you buy silica gel for home/storage use? Here's a small pack. There ought to be larger ones out there somewhere: http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-SILICA-5-Silica-gel-pack/dp/B00014K3WK The storage facility where I've rented sells pint-sized pots of "moisture absorber," which appears to be just a plastic container of silica with a vented top. From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Aug 16 18:08:53 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:08:53 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708161553y3fa4b701lf4f6cd62e8fc4f06@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> <967647.56720.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730708161553y3fa4b701lf4f6cd62e8fc4f06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C4D905.7060305@tdh.com> Uline sells various types, but it's not cheap. http://www.uline.com/Group_21.asp The other problem with things like that pint sized pot, it fills up with water, and you need to be there to dump it out. The packets would be good to put in with wrapped up items, I would think though. Jason T wrote: > On 8/16/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> Where can you buy silica gel for home/storage use? >> > > Here's a small pack. There ought to be larger ones out there somewhere: > > http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-SILICA-5-Silica-gel-pack/dp/B00014K3WK > > The storage facility where I've rented sells pint-sized pots of > "moisture absorber," which appears to be just a plastic container of > silica with a vented top. > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 16 18:14:37 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:14:37 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <967647.56720.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> <967647.56720.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070816181227.0867d050@mail> At 05:47 PM 8/16/2007, Andrew Burton wrote: >Where can you buy silica gel for home/storage use? It's used for drying flowers, so you can buy it in bulk at a craft shop (or online). If you know someone in the shoe department at a department store, they could easily save a tubful for you. Most cheap shoes include a small packet and you'll find them littered all over the floor in the shoe department. I have my doubts, though. Unless you're truly sealing the entire package from air, eventually the thermal cycling and humidity changes will exhaust the moisture capacity of a small packet. - John From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 18:21:39 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another rack question In-Reply-To: <46C47049.25674.334270F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <442006.10394.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I understand that there are standards for the width > of an EIA rack, > as well as bolthole size and spacing on the rails, > but is there any > sort of standard for *depth* of an EIA rack? Hehe. I ran into that one too. No, there really isn't. There are a lot of depths that appear more than once, but not really a "standard" that I could find. Hence, many rails are adjustable. Of course, I've run into some (like the brackets for a BA23) that aren't very adjustable. I have a couple cabinets where the rear uprights are adjustable too. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 16 17:12:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:12:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Aug 16, 7 01:06:11 pm Message-ID: > Although, I might consider assembler code where every second instruction > is a jump to be spaghetti code. What about microcodes where <>n> bits of each instruction define the address of the next intruction (this value is possibly modified by the conditional branch logic). In other words every instruction includes a jump. Actually, one microcode I deciphered was slightly worse. The next_address field, rather than containing the bit pattern for the next instruction's address, instead indicated which bits of the current address to change (a '0' meant leave that bit alone, a '1' meant flip it). And part of the this field also defined which conditon to use (if the condition logic was enanled, fortuantely by a totally separate bit in the microode word). [A very obscrue puzzel, what machine was I looking at?] -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 16 18:28:24 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C4D905.7060305@tdh.com> from Michael Lee at "Aug 16, 7 06:08:53 pm" Message-ID: <200708162328.l7GNSOTv010030@floodgap.com> > Uline sells various types, but it's not cheap. I've bought (and use) the bins ULine sells of the silica gel. The small packets are very economical if you will be packing a lot, as the bin is not tiny. When I box and bag something for long term storage, I throw a few in the box, then into the bag surrounding the box, and tape up the whole thing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. -- William Blake -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 18:29:12 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:29:12 -0700 Subject: Unibus, qbus, Shortbus? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708161551q6f8e586x775c9220c7d223aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708161551q6f8e586x775c9220c7d223aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708161629m668caf8ayc5a8ef048257ac48@mail.gmail.com> On 8/16/07, Jason T wrote: > > I recently acquired a CMD CDU-720 card, which appears to be a nice > (and nicely documented) card that supports all kinds of devices, and > speaks MSCP to the Vax. But, it is Unibus. > > Am I out of luck here? I gather there are bus converters. Are they > rare? Are they reliable? Should I save this card for the day I > happen upon bigger iron? > Most likely you would find a few people willing to trade something such as a CMD CQD-220/TM for your CMD CDU-720 as from what I can tell Unibus SCSI controllers are a lot more rare than q-bus SCSI controllers, at least if availability on eBay is anything similar to availability elsewhere. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 18:31:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unibus, qbus, Shortbus? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708161551q6f8e586x775c9220c7d223aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <552008.33358.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > It appears I need to take the bus to DEC101: > I have a MicroVax II in the BA23 case. I'd like it > to have a SCSI > card. You, me, and everyone else :) > This machine takes qbus cards, I believe. Correct. > I recently acquired a CMD CDU-720 card, which > appears to be a nice > (and nicely documented) card that supports all kinds > of devices, and > speaks MSCP to the Vax. But, it is Unibus. Nice score. Very nice score. Err, I mean, totally useless. Best to give it to me... > Am I out of luck here? I gather there are bus > converters. Yes, there are - going both ways too. The PDP-11/84, for instance, is a short qbus card cage (for CPU and memory) with a Qbus to Unibus adapter, and all Unibus I/O. I don't know if such a device would work on a Vax though, but it should. There are Unibus Vaxen. > Are they > rare? Not as rare as a Unibus SCSI card. > Are they reliable? Should be, as long as they are cabled up properly. Adding a seperate Unibus crate to an existing Unibus system was quite common, and Unibus will work over several feet. > Should I save this card > for the day I > happen upon bigger iron? Yes. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 16 18:33:29 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:33:29 -0600 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:00:08 -0500. <20070816170008.A23986@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: In article <20070816170008.A23986 at homer.berkhirt.com>, Jim Leonard writes: > But saying "GOTOS = Spaghetti code" is also wrong. Spaghetti Code is any > code that is "hard to follow", ie. the execution thread (and the meaning > behind it) is obtuse and difficult to understand. It has nothing to do > with what language is being used. It's possible to write spaghetti > code in any language, really. FRACTINT has shitloads of spaghetti code. A lot of it is created with nested if-then-else constructs. Its not the construct per se that is bad, its when you let complex conditions and alternatives wind on for many pages, all selecting each other through global variables and magic numbers. That's what can make deeply nested if-then-else or many instances of if-then-else be as confusing as trying to visually trace back spaghetti on your plate. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 18:45:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:45:16 -0700 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <200708162328.l7GNSOTv010030@floodgap.com> References: <46C4D905.7060305@tdh.com> from Michael Lee at "Aug 16, 7 06:08:53 pm", <200708162328.l7GNSOTv010030@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2007 at 16:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I've bought (and use) the bins ULine sells of the silica gel. The small > packets are very economical if you will be packing a lot, as the bin is not > tiny. When I box and bag something for long term storage, I throw a few in > the box, then into the bag surrounding the box, and tape up the whole thing. Before silica gel became ubiquitous as a dessicant, toasted rice was used. Very inexpensive if you could keep your package vermin-free, but a real rat-and-mouse-lure otherwise. Silica gel can be recycled by heating in an oven. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 16 18:47:15 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:47:15 -0700 Subject: Motorola MDOS Images Message-ID: <46C4E203.7090404@bitsavers.org> I've just placed several dozen MDOS floppy images in imagedisk format on http://bitsavers.org/bits/Motorola/mdos a windows exorciser simulator can be found here: http://www.exorciser.net/excorciser_en.htm From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Aug 16 19:25:59 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:25:59 -0600 Subject: rainbow color cable Message-ID: <46C4EB17.8050800@e-bbes.com> Hi all, saw the discussion about the rainbow, and decided to give my a try. But, I don't get any color output ? The color option is installed ;-) BTW, the cable I'm using is the BC06. Manual says, that it should be BC17. Anybody knows it is the problem ? What is the difference between them ? Thanks From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 16 19:47:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:47:38 +0100 Subject: PERQ T2 faults Message-ID: <46C4F02A.4020506@yahoo.co.uk> Am I right in thinking that code 010 on the LED display is "hung at disk boot"? If so, is there any way of getting a bit more detail as to the actual error at this stage? This machine has a 5.25" ST-506/412 drive in it. I don't think it's the one with the dreaded sticking rubber problem; at any rate I've had it spinning up on the bench - there seems to be a healthy clunk as heads unpark, and it doesn't spin down, suggesting that side of things is healthy. Other question: at the point when it's doing whatever checks yield the 010 code, should the display have initialised and be displaying anything? I'm getting nothing out of this system - but it's entirely possible that the display init is further down the boot process, and so it's never getting that far... (Anyone know which manual contains the pinouts for the video output and landscape display?) ta Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 19:54:46 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:54:46 -0400 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <46C4F1D6.30708@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: >> Although, I might consider assembler code where every second instruction >> is a jump to be spaghetti code. > > Actually, I'd consider the opposite. In assembler with something > like: > > cmp ax,01 > je @1 > cmp ax,02 > je @2 > > ...etc, at least you know what the value is that is causing the > jump. With a jump table, you have to do some digging. > > I'm still going to code jump tables, obviously, but the former is > easier to understand to someone looking at the code for the first time. I meant more like tag1 mov r1,loc1 jmp tag2 tag2 mov r2,loc2 jmp tag3 tag3 mov r3,loc3 ... ... etc. etc. I have seen people write code like that. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 19:56:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:56:01 -0400 Subject: Another rack question In-Reply-To: <46C47049.25674.334270F9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C47049.25674.334270F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C4F221.9080909@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I understand that there are standards for the width of an EIA rack, > as well as bolthole size and spacing on the rails, but is there any > sort of standard for *depth* of an EIA rack? Nope. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 20:42:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:42:20 -0500 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 01:06:11PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Although, I might consider assembler code where every second instruction > > is a jump to be spaghetti code. > > Actually, I'd consider the opposite. In assembler with something > like: > > cmp ax,01 > je @1 > cmp ax,02 > je @2 > > ...etc, at least you know what the value is that is causing the > jump. With a jump table, you have to do some digging. One hardware engineer I used to work with on several classic products, used the same technique, no matter the platform... cmp #'1 bne @2 . . . pages of code for the selection matching "1" br top_of_loop 2: cmp #'2 bne #3 . . . pages of code for the selection matching "2" ...etc. It was page after page of assembler with no vertical formatting breaks, no headers, no useful comments. I saw this technique on more than one product this guy worked on. I had to clean up the mess later. :-P (I used a jump table ;-) > I'm still going to code jump tables, obviously, but the former is > easier to understand to someone looking at the code for the first time. An undocumented jump table can indeed be confusing, as can building one with generic labels. My technique is to have a banner comment explaning what the table is about, then a smaller multi-line banner at each label so that you can see where one section stops and the next one starts. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 20:46:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:46:16 -0500 Subject: Another rack question In-Reply-To: <46C4F221.9080909@gmail.com> References: <46C47049.25674.334270F9@cclist.sydex.com> <46C4F221.9080909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I understand that there are standards for the width of an EIA rack, > > as well as bolthole size and spacing on the rails, but is there any > > sort of standard for *depth* of an EIA rack? > > Nope. I ran into that on my previous job - "standard" rails in a heavy telco environment. We had enclosed racks as well as relay racks, but the enclosed racks weren't mechanically compatible with some semi-modern server gear - we had to used extenders on the rails, _and_ a sawsall on the front rack posts. I really miss the "old" days working with DEC equipment in DEC racks - it fit well most of the time. This new stuff doesn't fit so well in older racks. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 16 20:50:24 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com> <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com> <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <20070816184907.W80133@shell.lmi.net> or: OR AX,AX JZ L0 DEC AX JZ L1 DEC AX JZ L2 DEC AX JZ L3 . . . From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 20:58:39 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:58:39 -0500 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023154@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023154@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <624966d60708161858m72a5ea93y8f4f84f062e70220@mail.gmail.com> Both the VR201 and the VR241 are available in the states, but shipping overseas could be expensive. Paul On 8/15/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > Yes I knew about the comp video. Fortunatly a kind list member has a > VT201 I can have. > Now the hunt is on for a VT241. That's the companion DEC 13" RGB colour > monitor. > > Regards > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: 13 August 2007 14:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus > > On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 08:24 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > You have another option... the video input to a VR201 is NTSC > > "composite video", also called RS-170. I see you are in the UK, so an > > > NTSC monitor might not be as easy to find as a VR201, but will work if > > > you have one handy. > > Just about any CCTV monitor, basically. > > Gordon > > > > > From yakowenk at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 22:26:11 2007 From: yakowenk at yahoo.com (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 48, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: <200708151245.l7FCiANL017465@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16964.27570.qm@web52304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Bill, 4.5 hours in which direction from DC? I'm about 4.5 hours south of DC, very near Raleigh NC. I'm not doing much classiccmp-ing these days, but might help out in a pinch, if it isn't too far.... Let me know. Cheers, Bill Yakowenko. You wrote: > From: William Maddox > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Large computer rescue - any collectors in the VA/PA/DC/WV/NC area? > Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:18:49 -0700 (PDT) > Message-ID: <713068.13956.qm at web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > I am arranging a large vintage computer rescue, and > will be on-site Thursday and Friday to inventory the > equipment and make arrangements. There will be > scrappers coming next week, so time is off the > essence. From the most recent photos I have been > sent, it looks like there may be more material there > than was previously indicated, and possibly more than > I will be able to handle. It is likely that I can set > aside material for other collectors. I would be > looking to get firm commitments over the next few days > while I am on-site, as it may be difficult to get the > owners to hold on to it otherwise. Material that may > be available include Modcomp IIs, IBM 729 keypunch, > 9-track tape drives, and possibly some Honeywell gear. > Please contact me if you have a serious interest and > ability to remove this sort of gear, about 4.5 hours > out of DC. > > -- Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 22:59:08 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:59:08 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? Message-ID: > From: brian at quarterbyte.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:25:30 -0700> Subject: Re: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"?> > > "... It is also easier to debug because it does not use the > > structures of nested if-then-else statements known as spaghetti code > > popular in conventional programming languages."> ...> > When did the meaning change?> > It hasn't. Let's just say that the quoted speaker has > his own take on things.> > http://www.vsmerlot.com/> > Click the "Wasn't the GOTO" link to see what he's> talking about.> > Then take a look at the QuickSort example, to see how he's> brought new clarity to the ghastly confusion of the> usual coded implementation.> > Hi State machines have their place. A calculator is a good example. It is too bad that not all software makes sense as a state table, just as an all OOP solution can be clumsy. Some of the best software I've seen was written by a friend. It was for a Reed-Solomon error correction. When he showed the code to his manager, the manager said he sent the wrong file. What the manager thought he saw was the specification for the code. What he really saw was the actual code. When code is written that well, anyone can maintain it. I've seen bad spaghetti code done in most any language. The worst was still in BASIC. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 23:09:36 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:09:36 -0700 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:04:18 -0700> To: cctech at classiccmp.org> From: jrr at flippers.com> CC: > Subject: RE: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19)> > At 7:03 AM -0700 8/16/07, dwight elvey wrote:> > > From: briandixson at tiscali.co.uk> > Hi > >Chris,> > > > I was looking at your thread > >relating to the Data I/O Manual and understand> > >you have the manuals.> > > > I picked a System19 > >unit up a couple of years ago and it came with > >the> Unipack & 001, 011 Adapters.> > > > The ---snip--- > > There are a few Data I/O sites scattered around > the Internet. I have a section in my ftp area > devoted to lists, images, etc.> ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment/DATA-IO> > ROM/PROM lists are in the FAMILY section at the > rear of the PDF manuals of the 29B directory, and > a few .txt lists are in the UNIPAK2B directory> > This is mirrored on a number of other sites, so > go easy on the download volume or I'll have to > limit access...> > John :-#)# Hi One should not that while the family codes are correct, the rev levels for the UniPak are different than those for the UniPak2. I wonder how it responds if the unit is not up to the specified rev? I guess if one tried to select one that wasn't supported, it would error out. Does anyone have any schematics for the various uP adapters. I'd really like to program 8751's and 8748's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 23:38:39 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:38:39 -0700 Subject: Comdyna GP-6, Minivac 601 documentation Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:48:45 -0400> From: tony.eros at machm.org> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org> CC: > Subject: Comdyna GP-6, Minivac 601 documentation> > Does anyone have documentation sets for either of these systems? I seem to recall a while back that someone had a full set of Minivac manuals that were going to be scanned, but I never heard anything more.> > Also, I recently picked up a GP-6 and am looking for a user's guide or other operations manuals.> > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.> > -- Tony Hi Tony I just looked up some of what one needs to know. If one jumpers the SW to the OP, the 4 push switches control the intgrator action. IC stands for Initial Condition ( you can put a specific start voltage on the caps ). HD stand for hold ( useful for taking reading of several outputs at the same point in the simulation ) OP This is the normal operation with the integrators working from model stimulous. RO it the same as above except that it does a IC after some time length ( specified by the rotory switch ). The SW pin could also be controlled by some opamp or external signal. There are three voltage levels that control initial condition, hold and operate. The web page also says how to connect the multipliers to opamps. There are a number of control courses, at various universities, that show how to configure the Comdyna. The value of the resistor shown as 1 is 50K and the .1 is 5K. Knowing this, one can use external resistors to extend the setting used. Of course, the two pots in the center could be used. The coef pots are useful for offsets, stimulous and initial conditions. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Messenger Caf? ? open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline From cctech at retro.co.za Fri Aug 17 01:23:00 2007 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:23:00 +0200 Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <200708161703.l7GH2Wvd040302@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20070817081809.03f18108@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi Jochen and others >You may try NetBSD. I looked at *BSD but it seemed to only support the Ultra 1E and not the Ultra 1. Tried Ubuntu Linux, that died while trying to partition the disks. Now installing Aurora (a Redhat spinoff), that seems to be working nicely. >I recommend IRIX 6.5. Installation instructions are here: >http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/6.5inst.html >It also tells you what CDs you will need. Thanks! >SIMMs. Max. is 256 MB RAM. The RAM for the Indigo depends on the CPU >board. The old R3k CPU board uses the same proprietary SIMMs like the Yea, it's an R3K. I'm surprised nobody commented on the SAM Coupe. First time I've even heard of it, to me it's one of the more interesting machines in the haul, just from a "look how far they went with this when newer technology was available" point of view. The Acorn RISC PC also seems to be something a lot of work went into. Pity it dead ended. W From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 01:49:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:49:23 -0700 Subject: Shifting meanings: "Spaghetti Code"? In-Reply-To: <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <46C41EED.32607.32049D60@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C48403.6030008@gmail.com>; from ploopster@gmail.com on Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 01:06:11PM -0400, <20070816170716.A29981@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <46C4E283.269.35009D45@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2007 at 17:07, Jim Leonard wrote: >> ...etc, at least you know what the value is that is causing the > jump. With a jump table, you have to do some digging. Oh, I have a soft spot in my heart of hearts for the folks who opt to save a few bytes of code by "chaining" conditional jumps. As in: cmp al,5 je lab1 ... cmp bl,15 lab1: je lab2 ... test cl,014h lab2: jz lab3 ... cmp dl,ch lab3: je lab6 ...and so on. How clever of these folks not to have to write the code for an unconditional 3-byte jump. I've seen macro definitions that do this--even more clever. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 01:55:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:55:04 -0400 Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20070817081809.03f18108@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20070817081809.03f18108@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <46C54648.80202@gmail.com> Wouter wrote: > Hi Jochen and others > >> You may try NetBSD. > > I looked at *BSD but it seemed to only support the Ultra 1E and not the > Ultra 1. Tried Ubuntu Linux, that died while trying to partition the > disks. Now installing Aurora (a Redhat spinoff), that seems to be > working nicely. I've run NetBSD on an Ultra 1 without any trouble. Peace... Sridhar From james at machineroom.info Thu Aug 16 17:37:17 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:37:17 +0100 Subject: UK retro show thoughts In-Reply-To: <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023133@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46C0902A.3010805@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: <46C4D19D.4020907@machineroom.info> > > So let's flip this round and ask what do people want to see and what can > people bring? No point stressing over space, power and helipads if there > are only a dozen people likely to exhibit with 'smaller' systems. > > Julian > OK, so I could bring some or all of my Transputer system. Since it's definetly classic and pretty rare I think it should be interesting. It was manufactured by Whitecross as a data mining server and is basically 3 * 6U or so rack mount cages with 19 processor boards. Each board has 6 T425 transputers. There's also high speed inter-cage link cards using fibre and some disk & system controller cages too. Nothing interesting running on it yet so no power requirements!! Could also bring a Cray-3 memory module. It's a beautiful object - just a shame it's only one module. I'm in Southampton but can travel to most places and help out others with transportation (Mercedes estate). Now, slightly OT but relevant none the less. I took a trip up to East Yorks a few weeks ago to deliver a Prime to Jim Austin (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/) and spent a _very_ happy 2 hours looking around his huge collection. I know he's not on list, as I understand it he's pushed for time. Now, a lot of his collection won't travel (try transporting an IBM 3084 or water cooled Fujitsu!) but he does have some fascinating and rare machines that I'm sure could be exhibited. In fact, his aim is to get the facilities together to have an open access collection. I suspect that someone on list knows Jim better than I do and could drop hints that he may want to be involved, or even that we hold a small exhibition at his location. Shrug, just an idea :-) TTFN, James From aek at spies.com Thu Aug 16 18:37:50 2007 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:37:50 -0700 Subject: Motorola MDOS disk images Message-ID: <46C4DFCE.5010105@spies.com> I've just placed several dozen MDOS floppy images in imagedisk format on http://bitsavers.org/bits/Motorola/mdos a windows exorciser simulator can be found here: http://www.exorciser.net/excorciser_en.htm From david at cantrell.org.uk Fri Aug 17 05:23:04 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:23:04 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening In-Reply-To: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Aug 14, 2007 at 09:55:49AM +0100, Mark Wickens wrote: > I can't believe I've opened such a heated debate! > How about another suggestion - a UK cctalk members get together. It looks like > the complexity of organising a general event, and previously documented > failures, are likely to put people off. > > I'm thinking 'start small' here. Maybe an event with 30 or so participants? > Primarily to 'chew-the-cud'? How about "come to the pub and natter". I propose the evening of Thursday the 6th of September, at whatever venue the London Perl Mongers choose for their social to be held on that day. It will be announced here: http://london.pm.org/meetings/ Sure, it's not convenient for non-Londoners, but it's a start. -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 07:33:59 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:33:59 +0100 Subject: Various items in Essex England In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/16/07, Andy Holt wrote: > various home computers of the BBC & ST/Amiga eras (not yet sorted) I'm interested in BBC stuff, but due to shortage of space this is an "I'm interested *if no-one else is and it's going to get skipped*" version of "interested". Still, I'm posting, because if there's BBC stuff (especially if it's rare/interesting) heading for a skip I'll be compelled to save it if no-one else does. If anyone else fancies it, please do speak up and save me the trouble ;) Ed. From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Aug 17 09:00:39 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:00:39 +0000 Subject: The storage question Message-ID: <081720071400.29870.46C5AA070009D571000074AE22070029539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >From: "Jason T" >Subject: Re: The storage question >On 8/16/07, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Where can you buy silica gel for home/storage use? >Here's a small pack. There ought to be larger ones out there somewhere: >http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-SILICA-5-Silica-gel-pack/dp/B00014K3WK >The storage facility where I've rented sells pint-sized pots of >"moisture absorber," which appears to be just a plastic container of >silica with a vented top. For rust prevention, has anyone tried volatile corrosion inhibitors? A suitable-looking one is the "Small Enclosed-Area Corrosion Inhibitors and Corrosive-Gas Absorber" (http://www.mcmaster.com/, catalog page 2049, $13 for one good up to 11 cu.ft) or those at http://www.theinhibitor.com/ . The one at McMaster-Carr says it is good for electrical enclosures, but I wonder if there are any harmful effects on plastics or IC's. Bob From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 09:09:00 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PERQ T2 faults Message-ID: <61231.42671.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Jules, My PERQ T2 does exactly the same thing. The dreaded 010. Eventually if left for a while (10mins+) it goes to 013 which I think is drive time out. Once I get chance I'm going to put a Logic analyser on the disk terminals to get a better idea what's happening. I also tried a ST-506/412 drive with the same result. Tony also mentioned that its possible to connect an analyser to the front of the CPU card to see where the CPU has stepped to. Cheers Ian > This machine has a 5.25" ST-506/412 drive in it. I don't > think it's the one > with the dreaded sticking rubber problem; at any rate I've > had it spinning up > on the bench - there seems to be a healthy clunk as heads > unpark, and it > doesn't spin down, suggesting that side of things is healthy. > > Other question: at the point when it's doing whatever checks > yield the 010 > code, should the display have initialised and be displaying > anything? I'm > getting nothing out of this system - but it's entirely > possible that the > display init is further down the boot process, and so it's > never getting that > far... (Anyone know which manual contains the pinouts for the > video output and > landscape display?) > > > ta > > Jules > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 17 10:12:09 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:12:09 +0200 Subject: My rescue mission In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20070817081809.03f18108@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <200708161703.l7GH2Wvd040302@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20070817081809.03f18108@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <20070817171209.2452707b@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:23:00 +0200 Wouter wrote: > I looked at *BSD but it seemed to only support the Ultra 1E and not > the Ultra 1. At least NetBSD runs on U1 and U1E. IIRC the U1 and U1E are mostly identical with these differences: U1: SBus only, 10 MBit/s Ethernet, 8 Bit SCSI. U1E: SBus and UPA, 100 MBit/s Ethernet, 16 Bit SCSI. I also can confirm that X11 works on Creator and Elite type UPA framebuffers. (But you will need the microcode from Solaris for the Elite / AFB type framebuffers.) SBus CG6 type framebuffers are supported for ages. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 17 10:42:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:42:18 -0600 Subject: Need a CBM 8032 keyboard Message-ID: I'm looking for a CBM 8032 keyboard, or possibly just a key/keycap. I've got an 8032 with a damaged numeric keypad that I'd like to bring back into full working order. A replacement keyboard would be a good place to start, so I thought I'd ask here. I'm in the US, 84106, so shipping from the EU is probably more trouble/cost than its worth. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 17 10:50:56 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:50:56 -0400 Subject: Need a CBM 8032 keyboard In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:42:18 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <200708171550.l7HFouqw031585@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm looking for a CBM 8032 keyboard, or possibly just a key/keycap. > I've got an 8032 with a damaged numeric keypad that I'd like to bring > back into full working order. A replacement keyboard would be a good > place to start, so I thought I'd ask here. On the off chance there are several keyboards or a source of keyswitches floating around, "Me too! Me too!" I have two broken switches, the 0 and . on the keypad. (Keycaps are gone too, of course.) De From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 11:16:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:16:47 -0500 Subject: Need a CBM 8032 keyboard In-Reply-To: <200708171550.l7HFouqw031585@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200708171550.l7HFouqw031585@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 8/17/07, Dennis Boone wrote: > > I'm looking for a CBM 8032 keyboard, or possibly just a key/keycap. > > On the off chance there are several keyboards or a source of keyswitches > floating around, "Me too! Me too!" I have two broken switches, the 0 > and . on the keypad. (Keycaps are gone too, of course.) Me too! Me too! ;-) Seriously, though... I have an 8032 keyboard that I dropped on a concrete floor. The impact snapped off a couple of keystems. I _have_ the keycaps, but just need to pull the board off the back and drop in a couple new stems. If someone is unearthing a pile of parts, please let me know. Thanks, -ethan From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Aug 17 11:47:22 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:47:22 -0700 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Seth Morabito wrote: I can't think of Prime Computers without thinking of this ad, now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Zf8oKuPYo Oh Dr. Who, why did you sell out? And for a Prime, no less! ;) -Seth -------------------- Beautiful! Thanks for posting that. It's a great juxtaposition. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 12:11:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:11:48 -0700 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> > Seth Morabito wrote: > > I can't think of Prime Computers without thinking of this ad, now: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Zf8oKuPYo > > Oh Dr. Who, why did you sell out? And for a Prime, no less! ;) Does anyone know what the approximate date of this ad might be? (Post 1977, certainly, since FORTRAN 77 is mentioned). Cheers, Chuck From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Aug 17 12:20:50 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need a CBM 8032 keyboard In-Reply-To: <200708171703.l7HH2v0S067365@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708171703.l7HH2v0S067365@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54075.207.245.121.210.1187371250.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> > > > I'm looking for a CBM 8032 keyboard, or possibly just a key/keycap. > > I've got an 8032 with a damaged numeric keypad that I'd like to bring > > back into full working order. A replacement keyboard would be a good > > place to start, so I thought I'd ask here. > > On the off chance there are several keyboards or a source of keyswitches > floating around, "Me too! Me too!" I have two broken switches, the 0 > and . on the keypad. (Keycaps are gone too, of course.) > I have 5 "NOS" PET 2001-N/3000/4000 series keyboards for sale. I have 8032 64K memory expansion kits and related items too, unfortunately no 8032 keyboards. Bill D From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 17 12:49:49 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:49:49 -0600 Subject: DEC rainbow 100 color cable In-Reply-To: <46C4EB17.8050800@e-bbes.com> References: <46C4EB17.8050800@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46C5DFBD.5090406@e-bbes.com> e.stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > saw the discussion about the rainbow, and decided to give my a try. > But, I don't get any color output ? > The color option is installed ;-) > > BTW, the cable I'm using is the BC06. Manual says, that it should be > BC17. Anybody knows it is the problem ? What is the difference between > them ? Answering my own question ;-) Anyway, the BC06 doesn't work, and the BC17 works, so now I have nice color output. Remember seeing once a pinout/use of all DEC cables on the web, but now I don't find it anymore. Anybody knows where to find it ? Thanks P.S. Anybody collected all the original DEC Disks ? My GSX86 disk has read errors :( From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 13:13:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:13:45 -0500 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C4D905.7060305@tdh.com> <200708162328.l7GNSOTv010030@floodgap.com> <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Before silica gel became ubiquitous as a dessicant, toasted rice was > used. Very inexpensive if you could keep your package vermin-free, > but a real rat-and-mouse-lure otherwise. Hmm... I'm sure it would work in moderately humid environments, but wet ones would lead to moldy rice, I'd wager. Here in the midwest, though, I'd be much more worried it would attract more mice/rats than just an empty box would. :-/ > Silica gel can be recycled by heating in an oven. Indeed. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 17 13:46:09 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:46:09 +0100 Subject: DEC rainbow 100 color cable In-Reply-To: <46C5DFBD.5090406@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <021a01c7e0fe$e9285cc0$3204010a@uatempname> e.stiebler wrote: > Remember seeing once a pinout/use of all DEC cables on the web, but > now > I don't find it anymore. Anybody knows where to find it ? I know of a cable guide produced by someone in the UK TSC in the 1990s sometime. I can go look for it if you like. I think it is quite big (20MB-50MB or so) as it has B&W photos of many of the cables. > P.S. Anybody collected all the original DEC Disks ? My GSX86 disk has > read errors :( I'll have a look this weekend if noone gets there first. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/957 - Release Date: 16/08/2007 13:46 From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 17 15:13:55 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:13:55 -0400 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:11:48 PDT.) <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Zf8oKuPYo > Does anyone know what the approximate date of this ad might be? > (Post 1977, certainly, since FORTRAN 77 is mentioned). I saw this previously, from a non-Youtube source. It was marked 1980. And the piece is titled "Step into the 80's!". The color scheme predates the model 2250 iirc, and that was a 1982 model. I don't know when Prime quit shipping Terminets as consoles. The disk drive looks like the 80 MB removable pack drive. I believe the 750 CPU was a dual cabinet model, so this would be one of the smaller three digit systems. For whatever trust it has, the Wikipedia article also says it was 1980, and that the actors are Tom Baker and Lalla Ward. It also includes a link to another Prime advert on youtube. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Computer De From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 17 15:33:50 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:33:50 -0600 Subject: DEC rainbow 100 color cable In-Reply-To: <021a01c7e0fe$e9285cc0$3204010a@uatempname> References: <021a01c7e0fe$e9285cc0$3204010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <46C6062E.3040309@e-bbes.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > I know of a cable guide produced by someone in the UK TSC in the 1990s > sometime. I can go look for it if you like. I think it is quite big > (20MB-50MB or so) as it has B&W photos of many of the cables. Yes, I remember it being from the U.K., but I guess I lost the source :( From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 17 15:48:42 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:48:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <884714.82936.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: Silica gel can be recycled by heating in an oven. Cheers, Chuck Yeah, the ones we use at work (I work in a lab) change colour when they absorb enough moisture. That's how you can tell when you need to put them in the oven (ours is set at 105 - i presume Fahrenheit, I never thought about that until now!). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 15:50:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:50:38 -0700 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com>, <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <46C5A7AE.2833.3802CF6D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2007 at 16:13, Dennis Boone wrote: > For whatever trust it has, the Wikipedia article also says it was 1980, > and that the actors are Tom Baker and Lalla Ward. It also includes a > link to another Prime advert on youtube. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Computer Ah, there's another Dr. Who Prime ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY6TdIMu5Qo&NR=1 Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 16:35:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:35:05 -0500 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 8/17/07, Dennis Boone wrote: > For whatever trust it has, the Wikipedia article also says it was 1980, > and that the actors are Tom Baker and Lalla Ward. It also includes a > link to another Prime advert on youtube. Being a long-time Doctor Who fan, I can confirm that the Wikipedia article is correct as to the identity of the actors. I don't know much about Prime machines (I'm much more of a DEC-head, for those that don't know me), but the setup in the ad looked interesting. I'd be curious to learn how that installation would compare to early 1980s DEC kit, I'd guess either a VAX 11/750 or 11/780 in terms of power, but that's an uneducated guess. Can someone who knows both brands make some sort of comparison? -ethan From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 17 17:14:01 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:14:01 -0400 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:35:05 CDT.) References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200708172214.l7HME1WW018477@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I don't know much about Prime machines (I'm much more of a DEC-head, for > those that don't know me), but the setup in the ad looked interesting. > I'd be curious to learn how that installation would compare to early > 1980s DEC kit, I'd guess either a VAX 11/750 or 11/780 in terms of > power, but that's an uneducated guess. > Can someone who knows both brands make some sort of comparison? So the hardware shown is (a) a GE Terminet ksr, (b) 300 lpm chain printer, (c) 800 bpi tape drive, (d) 50 series CPU of indeterminate model, (e) CDC 9762 removable pack drive (80 MB). The 750 CPU was a 1 MIPS engine, and would have had up to 8 MB of RAM. The slower possibilites (250, 550, 550-II, 650) would range from .5 to .7 MIPS. Prime 750s competed fairly well with 11/780s in the market. Prime were fond of calling the 50 series 32 bit systems, but that's stretching the truth a little. At their roots they were 16 bit systems which had grown (many) extensions, but were not as thoroughly 32 bit as the VAXen. I once worked on an 11/780 with 60ish users at a time. Not fun. I doubt most Prime 750s were abused quite that hard. Note that the hardware shown is actually late 70s at best, but then I guess that's true of any advert. In Prime's case, though, it may actually be more pronounced, as they reused CPU boards in those three digit models in a way that makes you wonder how much difference there was. For more on this, see list of CPU board sets at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.prime/browse_thread/thread/3ce01cff49c656d2/1e1995cbeece4240#1e1995cbeece4240 The comp.sys.prime faq shows the machine models in order of release. De From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 16:58:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 22:58:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd QIC-like tape Message-ID: A few days ago somebody here was asking about a QIC-like drive that didn't have optioncal BOT/EOT sensors, and wondered what tapes it used. Yesterday I obtained a car-load of HP150-related stuff. And amongst it was a pair of HP tape drive,s the 9144 and 9145, which use special HP pre-formatted tapes. Those had come to mind when I read the first posting, but I thought the tape was an HP 'special' so not relevant to the OP's machine But while looking at theAustralian museum (http://www.hpmuseum.net/), I found a link to a site that impliex these tapes were standard 3M products of the time ,the format was not custom HP, etc. The OP might want to look at that site and follow the links for 'storage', 'magnetic tape' and 'HP9144' (or 'HP9145'). I think that will turn up a like or twon that will be helpful -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:20:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:20:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC rainbow 100 color cable In-Reply-To: <46C6062E.3040309@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Aug 17, 7 02:33:50 pm Message-ID: For reference, here is a file I porduced on the 'universal' Rainbow video cable. It should indicate how to link up 2 monitors, etc. This is not a DEC product, it's something I hacked together for my 'Bow. -tony -------------------------- A universal DEC Rainbow video cable ----------------------------------- This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used with the Rainbow (see below). Connections : ------------- Rainbow end (DA15-S) 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd 10 >-------O---------O-- Green 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd 11 >-------O---------O-- Red 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono 5 >----+ 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd 14 >-------------------- From Key 7 >----------------------- Power 12V 15 >-------------------- To Key 8 >----------------------- Key 12V Box-mounted connectors : VR201 (DA15-P) 1 o 9 o 2 o 10 o 3 o 11 o 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd 13 o | 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd 14 o--------------------- From Key 7 o------------------------ Power 12V 15 o--------------------- To Key 8 o------------------------ Key 12V Monitor BNCs : Red ( o )--------- Red Gnd | +----------- Red Green ( o )--------- Green Gnd | +----------- Green Blue ( o )--------- Blue Gnd | +----------- Blue Mono ( o )--------- Mono Gnd | +----------- Mono LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) ------- | | ----- ----- | | | | | | -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- | | | | From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd Components : ------------ DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the DA15S). 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power 12V and Power Gnd). Possible monitor combinations : ------------------------------- 1) VR201 only This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. 2) Standard composite mono monitor Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on the second monitor 4) Two composite mono monitors Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and graphics on the second monitor 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : Red - Red Green - Mono Blue - Blue. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour monitor driver 6) RGB monitor and VR201 Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect color monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect colour monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:10:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:10:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQ T2 faults In-Reply-To: <46C4F02A.4020506@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 17, 7 01:47:38 am Message-ID: > > > Am I right in thinking that code 010 on the LED display is "hung at disk > boot"? If so, is there any way of getting a bit more detail as to the actual > error at this stage? IIRC, 010 means the microcode ROM self-tests have completed, and the thing is waiting for a boot device. Now, any PERQ will try to boot from the PERQlink (if you have an OIO card installed), then the floppy drive, then the hard drive. But certainly a T2 (or T4) will only boot from the floppy drive if the hard drive has gone ready. > > This machine has a 5.25" ST-506/412 drive in it. I don't think it's the one What drive is it, and has the PERQ ever worked with this drive? Have you set the drive select jumpers correctly? > with the dreaded sticking rubber problem; at any rate I've had it spinning up > on the bench - there seems to be a healthy clunk as heads unpark, and it > doesn't spin down, suggesting that side of things is healthy. > > Other question: at the point when it's doing whatever checks yield the 010 > code, should the display have initialised and be displaying anything? I'm No. The video system is quite complciated to set up (rememebr there's no hardware text mode), it's not something that can be done by the 256-word microdoe ROM. The first screen output (assuming a normal OS) is the obvious patterns from the memory test routints in VFY (microcode loaded from the boot drive), > getting nothing out of this system - but it's entirely possible that the > display init is further down the boot process, and so it's never getting that > far... (Anyone know which manual contains the pinouts for the video output and > landscape display?) It's possible to decuce them from the motherboard ('MOM') schematics in the schematics book. The pinout is given in the hardware FAQ too. What I would do is first check that the hard disk is going ready -- that is with a logic probe on the control connector with the drive cabled up to the PERQ. If it was my machine (as I have the facilities), I'd trace the microcode. The low 12 microcode address lines (all you need for this) are brought out the bottom connector (26 pin) on the front of the CPU board, along wit hte microcode clock. A logic analyser connected there can trace the boot microcode. Then look at the source listings to see just what the CPU is doing. If you don't have the boot ROM sources, ask me nicely for them :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 17:01:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:01:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: rainbow color cable In-Reply-To: <46C4EB17.8050800@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Aug 16, 7 06:25:59 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all, > saw the discussion about the rainbow, and decided to give my a try. > But, I don't get any color output ? > The color option is installed ;-) > > BTW, the cable I'm using is the BC06. Manual says, that it should be > BC17. Anybody knows it is the problem ? What is the difference between > them ? If those are the cables I am thinking of, the former has the 3 BNCs wired to the R,G References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <46C62D77.7000804@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/17/07, Dennis Boone wrote: >> For whatever trust it has, the Wikipedia article also says it was 1980, >> and that the actors are Tom Baker and Lalla Ward. It also includes a >> link to another Prime advert on youtube. > > Being a long-time Doctor Who fan, I can confirm that the Wikipedia > article is correct as to the identity of the actors. Me too. When I was a kid, I had such a *thing* for Lalla Ward. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 17 19:21:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:21:49 -0500 Subject: Prime minicomputer simulator? References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B682A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46C57464.25735.373A7558@cclist.sydex.com> <200708172013.l7HKDt8R008440@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <46C62D77.7000804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c7e12d$c4f24c60$6500a8c0@BILLING> Going off into the cast of characters for a scifi TV show is NOT on topic. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 19:27:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:27:09 -0700 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2007 at 22:58, Tony Duell wrote: > The OP might want to look at that site and follow the links for > 'storage', 'magnetic tape' and 'HP9144' (or 'HP9145'). I think that will > turn up a like or twon that will be helpful Thanks, Tony. Mystery solved. The drive in question probably takes DC600HC or DC600XTD "Iotamat" preformatted tapes. That would explain the 3M-labeled EPROM on the tape MPU board (uses an MC6800). Well, the drive will go back onto the shelf; I don't even know what the 50- conductor interface is supposed to connect to, though I suspect it may be a cousin of a QIC-36 type. Cheers, Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 17 09:32:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:32:03 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902316C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes I know. The shipping / voltage issue is a big problem for me. However as a stopgap I have found a non-DEC monitor marked R G(Sync) B. (If that's not sync on green I don't know what is) So its cable time this weekend and see if we can't get some colour out of the Rainbow. (Cue Judy Garland .. Somewhere etc.....) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 17 August 2007 02:59 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus Both the VR201 and the VR241 are available in the states, but shipping overseas could be expensive. Paul On 8/15/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > Yes I knew about the comp video. Fortunatly a kind list member has a > VT201 I can have. > Now the hunt is on for a VT241. That's the companion DEC 13" RGB > colour monitor. > > Regards > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: 13 August 2007 14:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus > > On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 08:24 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > You have another option... the video input to a VR201 is NTSC > > "composite video", also called RS-170. I see you are in the UK, so > > an > > > NTSC monitor might not be as easy to find as a VR201, but will work > > if > > > you have one handy. > > Just about any CCTV monitor, basically. > > Gordon > > > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 17 18:58:19 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 00:58:19 +0100 Subject: DEC rainbow 100 color cable Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902316E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks Tony ... That's saved me a lot of searching. I managed to find a sync on green colour monitor. Its not DEC but 'twill do until a VR241 turns up. A kind list member has found a real VR201 for me. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 17 August 2007 23:21 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC rainbow 100 color cable For reference, here is a file I porduced on the 'universal' Rainbow video cable. It should indicate how to link up 2 monitors, etc. This is not a DEC product, it's something I hacked together for my 'Bow. -tony -------------------------- A universal DEC Rainbow video cable ----------------------------------- This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used with the Rainbow (see below). Connections : ------------- Rainbow end (DA15-S) 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd 10 >-------O---------O-- Green 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd 11 >-------O---------O-- Red 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono 5 >----+ 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd 14 >-------------------- From Key 7 >----------------------- Power 12V 15 >-------------------- To Key 8 >----------------------- Key 12V Box-mounted connectors : VR201 (DA15-P) 1 o 9 o 2 o 10 o 3 o 11 o 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd 13 o | 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd 14 o--------------------- From Key 7 o------------------------ Power 12V 15 o--------------------- To Key 8 o------------------------ Key 12V Monitor BNCs : Red ( o )--------- Red Gnd | +----------- Red Green ( o )--------- Green Gnd | +----------- Green Blue ( o )--------- Blue Gnd | +----------- Blue Mono ( o )--------- Mono Gnd | +----------- Mono LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) ------- | | ----- ----- | | | | | | -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- | | | | From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd Components : ------------ DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the DA15S). 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power 12V and Power Gnd). Possible monitor combinations : ------------------------------- 1) VR201 only This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. 2) Standard composite mono monitor Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on the second monitor 4) Two composite mono monitors Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and graphics on the second monitor 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : Red - Red Green - Mono Blue - Blue. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour monitor driver 6) RGB monitor and VR201 Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect color monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect colour monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver From sieler at allegro.com Fri Aug 17 20:18:17 2007 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:18:17 -0700 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46C5E669.28990.FD95DAB@localhost> Re: > Yesterday I obtained a car-load of HP150-related stuff. And amongst it > was a pair of HP tape drive,s the 9144 and 9145, which use special HP > pre-formatted tapes. ... > looking at theAustralian museum (http://www.hpmuseum.net/), I found a > link to a site that impliex these tapes were standard 3M products of the > time ,the format was not custom HP, etc. IIRC, the HP cartridge tapes were definitely pre-formatted ... something allegedly done only at the factory. If you wrote on one with a non-HP drive, it would then be useless in an HP drive. (IIRC, however, there might have been a way to re-low-level format them on an HP 9144 or HP 9145 drive, but it required an offline utility program and a lot of time.) Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Aug 18 01:34:12 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:34:12 +0100 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1187418852.27537.7.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Thu, 2007-08-16 at 11:46 -0700, Paxton Hoag wrote: > On an old Spenser Tracy, Kate Hepburn movie called "Desk Set" playing > on the Family Movie Channel. 1957 > > Looked like an IBM 700 series computer. Unfortunitely it was only > shown during the opening credits. > > Story is about installing an IBM computer in a TV Studio. Mostly a > situational comedy. I am not sure I will stick around toii see if it > show up later. IIRC "Desk Set" was cited in the BCS at 50 conference as the first appearance of a real computer in a movie. I haven't seen it, but apparently it was quite prescient as regards the uses computers would eventually have. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From evan at snarc.net Sat Aug 18 02:01:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 3:01:00 -0400 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV Message-ID: <200708180701.l7I71tqN059659@keith.ezwind.net> The movie is very good (and funny!), I suggest watching it. From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Aug 18 02:03:44 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 00:03:44 -0700 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Fri\, 17 Aug 2007 22\:58\:14 +0100 \(BST\)") References: Message-ID: <200708180703.l7I73iqi049643@lots.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > A few days ago somebody here was asking about a QIC-like drive that > didn't have optioncal BOT/EOT sensors, and wondered what tapes it used. > > Yesterday I obtained a car-load of HP150-related stuff. And amongst it > was a pair of HP tape drive,s the 9144 and 9145, which use special HP > pre-formatted tapes. > > Those had come to mind when I read the first posting, but I thought the > tape was an HP 'special' so not relevant to the OP's machine But while > looking at theAustralian museum (http://www.hpmuseum.net/), I found a > link to a site that impliex these tapes were standard 3M products of the > time ,the format was not custom HP, etc. Yes and no. At least on the HP3000, there was a sort of two-level format. The low-level format was recorded at the factory, and I think it put down the inter-block markers. If you wanted to use one of these tapes as a :STORE medium, you had to prepare it first. :DOWN a tape drive drive device, insert the tape into that drive, wait for the drive to finish loading it, then run something like: :VINIT >FORMAT 7 >SERIAL 7 >EXIT (7 in these examples is the logical device number of the drive) If you got HP 88140 tapes, the FORMAT step was not quite immediate. If you got 3M tapes, the FORMAT step took considerable time (minutes, I'm thinking tens of minutes). I found this out the hard way -- our purchasing agent (where I worked in the early 1990s) was offered a deal on the 3M tapes and got one in as a sample. I tried it. I recommended against; the savings in cost would be wiped out by the backup or production guy (or by me) waiting for the FORMAT to finish, or coming back to check on it, or whatever. -Frank McConnell From james at machineroom.info Sat Aug 18 06:15:08 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:15:08 +0100 Subject: DEC hardware & software available (UK) Message-ID: <46C6D4BC.7040607@machineroom.info> Hi, I picked up a job lot and about half of this is DEC. I'm not a DEC collector (shock!!) but I know many of you are. I'm in Southampton, UK. I'm happy to post this stuff (UK only, sorry!) if you cover costs, but would of course prefer collection. I don't have any working DEC kit so this is all untested. If you get something that works and you feel is worth money then make a donation to Cray-Cyber (www.cray-cyber.org) or your favourite charity :-) Hardware: Approx 90 * TK50 "CompacTape" cartridges. These are all in cases, many have VMS 5.5 or system backups. Some look new. There's also about 10 of "CompacTape II" cartridges. I'd like to cover my costs and ask ?50 for the whole lot (DHL delivery would be about ?13). I may split if there's no interest in the lot. TZ30 drive. Powers up but flat cable on side has been broken so this is spares/repair LK401 keyboard 3 mice. 2 * 3W3 -> BNC cables keyb/mouse interface "box" (plugs into back of 3000) VSXXX-AA B03. Nice puck style mouse missing cable - suspect spares/repair PCPI H-DC external power supply H7819-AA internal PSU. DEHUB-AX BU3 8 slot wall mounting "back plane" with PSU (doesn't power up) and DECrepeater 90T-16 Multia workstation/terminal. Powers up and reports 166MHz CPU & 64MB. Has floppy drive. 3000 600S workstation. Powers up but just get flashing cursor in bottom left on connected monitor. The 8 LED's on the back panel all light, except 1 & 5. Has CD, 2 hard disks, 16 memory sticks & PMAGB-B GFX card. 8 * memory sticks. 80 pin. 514100-10 chips on both sides PMAZ-A SCSI card PV2 "lights and switches" card Motherboard. Can't see a part number! has 8 * 80 pin memory slots (unpopulated), dated 1992. Possible part numbers are 5421177 & 50-21176-01. Has 50-20429-01 card mounted. CPU card B3004-DA 466MHz 21164 4MB cache GS-2 GFX board set? (24 plane frame buffer & another card with i860 and a DEC VLSI - 5420450 or 07292-5562) About 10 assorted cables - mix of RS232/keyboard/AUI? PBXGA PCI GFX card Twin full length PCI GFX card with GL chips. KZPSAPS full length PCI SCSI PBXGB full length PCI GFX 3 * dual wide SCSI using 53C710 on HSD10 PCI adapter 3.5" SCSI hard disks. I'vepowered these up and all make the "right" noises. (2 * RZ23, 2 * RZ25, 4 * RZ26, 1 * RZ28 & 1 * RZ29) Software: Approx 250 3.5" floppies. These are mostly Digital/Compaq drivers for various machines dated from 1993 onwards. Various 5.25" floppies. Some originals, some copies. These are mostly in plastic cases or wallets and look tidy. Some of the sets are: 1. 5 cases (about 15 per case) unlabeled - assume blank 2. 27 * MICRO-11 MAINT & FORMTR (originals) 3. microvax II DIAG. 6 disks. copies 4. microvax II MACROVERIFY (ME3257) 5. microvax II MAINT #3 & #4 6. BL19 INISYS + SWCOPY 7. BL21 "Branch software" 13 disks 8. MICRO-11 DIAGS 1-8 & A & B 9. MICRO-11 Formatter 10. vaxMate MS-DOS 3.10 (original) 11. Assorted other disks Best to contact me off list if you are interested in any of this. Thanks for taking the time to look! James http://www.machineroom.info From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 18 11:34:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:34:52 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP-11/23 ? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256F79@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <46C71FAC.2010706@jetnet.ab.ca> James Fogg wrote: > http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/1123PLUS.JPG > > I have cash into this project. I'm wondering if there is any value to > this system. Have PDP's reached "collectable" status yet? I was just cleaning my in basket , while I was waiting for VCM to load. A PDP8/A is just up for sale -- $1,500.00 . I would say the answer is yes. Bem alias woodelf PS. Has your PDP-11 sold? From kth at srv.net Sat Aug 18 13:13:40 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:13:40 -0600 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C4D905.7060305@tdh.com> from Michael Lee at "Aug 16, 7 06:08:53 pm", <200708162328.l7GNSOTv010030@floodgap.com> <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C736D4.2040301@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Before silica gel became ubiquitous as a dessicant, toasted rice was > used. Very inexpensive if you could keep your package vermin-free, > but a real rat-and-mouse-lure otherwise. > > Silica gel can be recycled by heating in an oven. > So can rats and mice. Ummmm. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 16:26:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:26:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Rainbow 100+ Plus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902316C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 17, 7 03:32:03 pm Message-ID: > > Yes I know. The shipping / voltage issue is a big problem for me. The mains voltage s not a problem, AFAIK all VR241s have a selector switch on the back. Shipping would be expensive, though (the VR241 is not light...) > However as a stopgap I have found a non-DEC monitor marked R G(Sync) B. > > (If that's not sync on green I don't know what is) Oh, it's sync-on-green, but it needn't be US TV scan rates ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 16:30:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:30:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 17, 7 05:27:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Aug 2007 at 22:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The OP might want to look at that site and follow the links for > > 'storage', 'magnetic tape' and 'HP9144' (or 'HP9145'). I think that will > > turn up a like or twon that will be helpful > > Thanks, Tony. Mystery solved. The drive in question probably takes > DC600HC or DC600XTD "Iotamat" preformatted tapes. That would explain > the 3M-labeled EPROM on the tape MPU board (uses an MC6800). Well, > the drive will go back onto the shelf; I don't even know what the 50- > conductor interface is supposed to connect to, though I suspect it > may be a cousin of a QIC-36 type. I would be _very_ suprised if it was a 'raw' interface like QIC-36. Since the tapes are pre-formated, and have various markers on them, you can't just write an aribtrary bit pattern ot the tape (you risk overwriting the markers), which a raw interface would generally allow you to do. It's much more likely to be a 'formatted' interface. With a 50 pin connector, my first guess would be QIC-02. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 18 17:24:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:24:48 -0700 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: References: <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 17, 7 05:27:09 pm, Message-ID: <46C70F40.20303.3D7F5A3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2007 at 22:30, Tony Duell wrote: > It's much more likely to be a 'formatted' interface. With a 50 pin > connector, my first guess would be QIC-02. Doesn't appear to be QIC-02, at least not with any of my adapters (can't select, can't get meaningful device status). More likely some proprietary interface. It's not SCSI, either. :) Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 19:48:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:48:01 -0400 Subject: Infoserver Software Message-ID: <46C79341.5010500@gmail.com> Anyone have the DEC InfoServer software? I need it and I'm in a big hurry and need it immediately. I can't seem to find my CD. Could someone help me? Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 18 20:35:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:35:41 -0700 Subject: Nibbler recommendation Message-ID: <46C73BFD.4999.3E2E1AE7@cclist.sydex.com> Rather than replace the anvil in my 20-year-old hand nibbler (which I'm not sure that I can do anyway), I've decided to spring for a new one. Both Adel and Klein offer hand sheet-metal nibblers for about the same price. Which one is better? Cheers, Chuck From scrappylaptop at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 21:57:57 2007 From: scrappylaptop at yahoo.com (Scrappy Laptop) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nibbler recommendation In-Reply-To: <46C73BFD.4999.3E2E1AE7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <225271.44296.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: Rather than replace the anvil in my 20-year-old hand nibbler (which I'm not sure that I can do anyway), I've decided to spring for a new one. Both Adel and Klein offer hand sheet-metal nibblers for about the same price. Which one is better? Cheers, Chuck ...and I was about to recommend Copy ][ Plus by Central Point, circa 198, then I thought, "wait, sheet metal nibbler? ....Ohhhhhh."? --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 18 22:52:20 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:52:20 -0700 Subject: Infoserver Software In-Reply-To: <46C79341.5010500@gmail.com> References: <46C79341.5010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:48 PM -0400 8/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Anyone have the DEC InfoServer software? I need it and I'm in a big >hurry and need it immediately. I can't seem to find my CD. Browse the Freeware CD's, they're available online at HP. I believe it is on one of the latest sets. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 00:06:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:06:58 -0400 Subject: Infoserver Software In-Reply-To: References: <46C79341.5010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C7CFF2.3000602@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:48 PM -0400 8/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Anyone have the DEC InfoServer software? I need it and I'm in a big >> hurry and need it immediately. I can't seem to find my CD. > > Browse the Freeware CD's, they're available online at HP. I believe it > is on one of the latest sets. Yeah, I just found it. Thanks. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cbxpilot at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 22:16:11 2007 From: cbxpilot at yahoo.com (D Nash) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: radio shack science fair manual Message-ID: <352346.65593.qm@web38804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I found your post in the Internet and was wondering if you found a manual for the 130 in one kit yet? I just took mine out of the closet to show my son and the manual is missing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Don --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 08:08:10 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. Message-ID: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. By shuffleing parts around (and some considerable work getting ribbon cables through the bulkhead of a BA23), I was able to get a Microvax II configured with: Ethernet, ESDI w/ 70mb hard disk, and a TK50. I brought this Vax to Sridhar's house. The general consensus both here and on the netbsd list seems to be that the only way to boot/install a Vax is through MOP, over Ethernet. Well, now that I found Ethernet, it should have been simple. Sridhar has a Dec InfoServer 1000. This is a really cool little device the size of a CDROM player that can connect to a SCSI CD drive, and Ethernet, and be bootable by networked Vaxen. So, we cabled everything up, and immediately hit a snag. The InfoServer won't see the CDROM. In fact, it won't even boot right if there's a CD drive connected. We tried other CD drives, other cables, played with termination, everything. I discovered that the machine wouldn't boot if you just had a terminated cable plugged into it. The connectors are clearly labeled and keyed - no chance of mixing that up. A last ditch effort was to take a non-keyed cable, and purposely insert it backwards on one end. And it worked. So, if anyone is trying to connect a drive to an InfoServer 1000 using the 50 pin SCSI header on the InfoServer's board - that connector is BACKWARD! You must use a non-keyed cable and plug it in BACKWARD in order to make it work. After getting that going, and getting all the commands correct to boot the Vax off the InfoServer - all seemed well. Do the base restore set from the InfoServer, boot from the hard disk, follow the prompts and install the rest of the distribution. This is a 70mb ESDI disk, so after the base load, I had about 65000 blocks free. According to the installer, the Library, Help and DecNet phase IV will fit, just barely, with 300 blocks to spare. It won't. The installer runs out of space and crashes horribly. Reboot, reinstall base, back into installer, select only Library and DecNet IV. This leaves nearly 11000 free blocks according to the installer. This does not fit either, running out of disk during installation. At this point, it was 3:30 AM. We decided to call it a day (night?). Maybe I'll try NetBSD again. There has to be a way to get an OS onto a Vax in 70 megabytes. -Ian From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 08:43:00 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:43:00 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708190643p4b371df5haae2236495aa38a2@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some > tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we > attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. > > I brought this Vax to Sridhar's house. The general > consensus both here and on the netbsd list seems to be > that the only way to boot/install a Vax is through > MOP, over Ethernet If you happen to have a q-bus SCSI controller which supports CD-ROM drives that's also a fine way to boot and install VMS. I did that with 7.3 on my MV-III (KA655) and a Dilog SQ706A. But then if you did have a q-bus SCSI controller you wouldn't be fighting with a 70MB hard drive. Larger ESDI hard drives shouldn't be too difficult or expensive to come by either. But if the point of the exercise is to make the 70MB hard drive work I don't have any personal experience advice there. I just download the NetBSD 3.1 Vax CD a couple of days ago and haven't tried installing that yet. From andy at smokebelch.org Sun Aug 19 08:50:22 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:50:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070819144057.A21825@plum.flirble.org> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some > tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we > attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. <> > At this point, it was 3:30 AM. We decided to call it a > day (night?). Maybe I'll try NetBSD again. There has > to be a way to get an OS onto a Vax in 70 megabytes. My first VAX was a MicroVAX 2000 and it booted VMS from a local RD53 (71Mb?). This would have been something around VAX/VMS v5.4 and included the help library and DECnet Phase IV, but no IP. My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think I had it booting a bare minimal system from an RD52 as well, but couldn't swear to this. At the time the place I worked at had a PC maintenance dept that was well stocked with MFM/RLL drives, and I remember trying all sorts in the thing with little or no success. Andrew From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 08:55:55 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90708190643p4b371df5haae2236495aa38a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79090.16521.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > But then if you did > have a q-bus SCSI controller you wouldn't be > fighting with a 70MB hard > drive. Exactly. > Larger ESDI hard drives shouldn't be too > difficult or > expensive to come by either. Yeah, I know - but that's the largest I could find at home in short notice. I may have larger ones even, I just haven't been able to find them :) I hoped it would be enough... > But if the point of the exercise is to make the 70MB > hard drive work I > don't have any personal experience advice there. The point of the exercise was to get make a MicroVax II work... > I > just download the > NetBSD 3.1 Vax CD a couple of days ago and haven't > tried installing > that yet. CD booting from NetBSD may work. What I found was that tape booting NetBSD quietly stopped working YEARS ago, and the FAQ was never updated. I spent a whole day trying to figure out why it wouldn't boot before I got the response on port-vax "oh, yeah, just mop boot it". And at that time I didn't realize I had an ethernet card. -Ian From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Aug 19 09:31:35 2007 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:31:35 +0100 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Hi guys... I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work. Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message. I'm guessing it's because these disks are old (pushing on for 20 years in some cases, and I'm fairly sure they're *all* over 10 years), and they've degraded over time, or the magnetic signals have become disorientated, or some such technical explanation.... However, the result is, they're so much plastic scrap at the moment. Is there any device/program/machine I can use to restore these floppys back to working order? I'm not overly bothered about keeping the data that's on many of them (although if there IS a way to preserve it, that'd be great), but they do still sometimes come in useful, and it'd be a shame to bin so many of them. Cheers! Ade. PS: Most of my old 5.25" disks, despite being up to 30 years old, are all working fine. Similarly, most of my old Sinclair microdrive cassettes, which are >20 years old, are also fine - at least, the ones where the little foam pad hasn't perished are. Similarly, many of the compact cassettes I have for various old 20+ year old home computers still work.... are 3.5" 1.44MB floppies just inherently useless? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/960 - Release Date: 18/08/2007 15:48 From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 19 09:50:57 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:50:57 -0600 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <46C858D1.4060304@e-bbes.com> Ade Vickers wrote: > Hi guys... > > I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work. > Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid > media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message. Same here. Pretty much all of the 3.5" don't work reliably anymore. But 9-tracks from the 70's are fine, 8" and 5.25" floppies are fine. Just plain weird. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 19 09:54:27 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:54:27 -0600 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <79090.16521.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <79090.16521.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C859A3.7040807@e-bbes.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > CD booting from NetBSD may work. What I found was that > tape booting NetBSD quietly stopped working YEARS ago, > and the FAQ was never updated. I spent a whole day > trying to figure out why it wouldn't boot before I got > the response on port-vax "oh, yeah, just mop boot it". > And at that time I didn't realize I had an ethernet > card. And just for the sake of discussion, you can also use your MVII diskless. At one point I had so many of them, that I just removed all the drives and run them diskless, all the data were on FreeBSD. (No real preference of FreeBSD over NetBSD, the system just had bigger drives at this time) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 09:59:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:59:40 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <46C7F86C.5212.410E2A8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 15:31, Ade Vickers asked: > .... are 3.5" 1.44MB floppies just inherently useless? Once written, 3.5" DSHD floppies seem to retain their information well enough; they just don't like being rewritten. Degaussing sometimes helps temporarily reclaim a floppy for another use. If you search the list archives, you've heard me rant on this subject. The short answer is "pretty much". I've been able to recycle a number of bad 1.44MB by covering over the density-indicator aperture and using them as 720K. But even that doesn't work on all of them. On the other hand, the failure rate of 720K DS2D diskettes is substantially lower than that of DSHD. If you place the floppy on a tabletop so that the exposed hub faces down, they make decent coasters on which to place drinks. I suppose one could use the disks to shim up a leg on a wobbly table. Like old CDs, I'm always looking for new uses for 3.5" floppies. For what it's worth, I've had the same experience as you with 5.25" floppies--they tend to hold onto data better. Last week, I got a conversion job in where a number of 5.25" DSHD diskettes were mistakenly written 20 years ago in a Kaypro 10. I had a bad feeling in my gut about that--5.25 HD media differs considerably in its magnetic characteristics from 2D media. Yet I encountered only a single read error--and that was in a backup file. Out of the 300 diskettes on that job so far, I've yet to encounter another unrecoverable error--and many of the diskettes have obviously been recycled from other uses. 8" floppies tend to be even more tenacious than 5.25". I routinely process media that was written more than 30 years ago without problems. Cheers, Chuck From dj.taylor at starpower.net Sun Aug 19 10:14:31 2007 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:14:31 -0400 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <884714.82936.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <46C47F1C.9650.337C5942@cclist.sydex.com> <884714.82936.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20070819111255.01f00cc8@pop.starpower.net> At 04:48 PM 8/17/2007, you wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >Silica gel can be recycled by heating in an oven. > > >Yeah, the ones we use at work (I work in a lab) change colour when they >absorb enough moisture. That's how you can tell when you need to put them >in the oven (ours is set at 105 - i presume Fahrenheit, I never thought >about that until now!). I had a hard time finding dessicants on the web, finally bought some from: http://www.jakesmp.net/CSD_Silica_Gel/CSD_Silica_001_M.html I was looking for the clay type in pouches. Doug From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 10:16:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:16:38 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: > From: javickers at solutionengineers.com> > Hi guys...> > I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work.> Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid> media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message.> > I'm guessing it's because these disks are old (pushing on for 20 years in> some cases, and I'm fairly sure they're *all* over 10 years), and they've Hi I've seen case where if the disk has had an error on track 0, you can not even reformat using the format tool. The tool is too smart. In some case, I've taken a small maget and dragged it along the surface of the disk to remove all of the original format. It needs to make contact with the surface so you need a method of rotating the disk inside the case. Avoid scratching or denting the surface or it will be useless. The other possible problem is that there is something on your drives head that is scratching the magnetic material off. If you've not cleaned the heads in some time, don't blame the disk. There are some disk that others have reported to have failed but I've personally never seen one to fail without cause. The most common on 3.5's is contamination of dirt from carrying around in pockets. Next is dirty heads. I've even seen oily fingers from small children. If the surface is being removed, the heads will surely need cleaning. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 10:27:01 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:27:01 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:50:57 -0600> > Ade Vickers wrote:> > Hi guys...> > > > I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work.> > Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid> > media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message.> Same here. Pretty much all of the 3.5" don't work reliably anymore.> But 9-tracks from the 70's are fine, 8" and 5.25" floppies are fine.> Just plain weird. Hi Much of the probems I've see are also drive related. For some reason the possitioning of the tracks seems to fail often. Soem have had luck with adjusting the track zero sensor but what I've seem is related to the small plastic ball bearing used in the slides. For some reason these tend to get flat spots and don't roll well. Once this happens, all kinds of problems happen. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 10:33:34 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <853588.380.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've had pretty good reliability with 3 1/2" disks, if you keep the drive clean, and make sure that the disks aren't dirty or have that "gritty" sound to them, they typically work OK. I typically use the fdformat (or superformat) under Linux - you can have it format the whole disk before going back and verifying, sometimes it might take a pass or two before the disk verifies OK. Degaussing the disks with a bulk eraser would be a good idea too. But be sure that your drive is good and clean. I've also had better luck with older floppy drives - Mitsumi, Chinon and Teac drives seem to be very reliable. Blow the fuzzies out before use. Also, be sure your BIOS is set right - I had a hell of a time a couple weeks ago trying to write a disk on a PC here, it was just a simple boot disk, but I tried four floppies, checking the image, reformatting, etc - then I remembered that last time I used the PC, I had a 1.2mb 5 1/4" drive as drive 0. Bios was set wrong, and the whole time I was trying to write data to the disk at the wrong data rate. Doh! -Ian From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 19 10:35:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for "VT100.TDV" for an Alpha Micro Message-ID: <200708191535.l7JFZ1JY011870@floodgap.com> I've spent the weekend getting my new acquisition, an Alpha Micro Eagle 300 with AMOS 2.3a and AlphaTCP on an AM-65 console, up and running. After a few false starts, I now have the Ethernet configured, TELNED set up for remote login, FTPD, and HTTPD. Eventually I'll probably put it out there as a "fan server" running on real hardware, put up some FAQs, etc. However, I can't for the life of me find any VT100 or VT100-compatible TDVs in DVR:, so I've been logging in as a dummy terminal with TELTYP. This is pretty crufty. Anyone running an AM system with a VT100-compatible TDV I could "borrow"? VERIFY TCP checks out, so I don't think I'm missing any files. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world will end at 3 p.m. today, to be followed by a brief symposium. --- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 19 11:45:16 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:45:16 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:08 AM -0700 8/19/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >There has >to be a way to get an OS onto a Vax in 70 megabytes. You don't mention *what* version of VMS. If you go with VAX/VMS V5.5-2 (Hobbyist V1 CD-ROM) it is possible to fit it onto a 70MB disk, though you'll have to leave some stuff out as I recall. It is a pretty tight fit. If you could get ahold of MicroVMS V4.x it would definitely fit (I have no idea where to find a copy). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 19 11:54:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:54:19 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. Message-ID: <0JN100GI25M929A8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:45:16 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 6:08 AM -0700 8/19/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>There has >>to be a way to get an OS onto a Vax in 70 megabytes. > >You don't mention *what* version of VMS. If you go with VAX/VMS >V5.5-2 (Hobbyist V1 CD-ROM) it is possible to fit it onto a 70MB >disk, though you'll have to leave some stuff out as I recall. It is >a pretty tight fit. If you could get ahold of MicroVMS V4.x it would >definitely fit (I have no idea where to find a copy). > > Zane VM5.5 will fit if you leave out DECwindows and some of the language support. It will fit better is you can put in another (even if only 20MB) for files as then you can move the page and swap files to there and buy some space. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 12:29:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:29:46 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <853588.380.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: , <853588.380.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C81B9A.14753.41979CC6@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 8:33, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I typically use the fdformat (or superformat) under > Linux - you can have it format the whole disk before > going back and verifying, sometimes it might take a > pass or two before the disk verifies OK. Degaussing > the disks with a bulk eraser would be a good idea too. Most bad 3.5 DSHD floppies fail on the first track (track 0). As that's the case, what you use as a formatting program doesn't matter. The drive's not seeking to get to track 0, so a format followed by a verify on that track alone will show most of the failures--and that's what I use to quickly separate the chaff from the grain. The sad fact is that most diskettes manufactured in the last decade or so are pretty miserable. Awhile back, I purchased a few hundred Imation "made in USA" DSHDs. Thus far, the results have been mixed. One odd thing is that the boxes state "Lifetime Warranty, see inside for details". Well, there's nothing inside... Not that long ago I purchased 3.5" drives by the carton (Teac FD- 235HF) and still have quite a few new drives left over. The new drives don't seem to do any better with problem diskettes than the drives that have been used for more than 10 years. However, all of my cases are positive-pressure ventilated with a filter on the intake, instead of the usual (it seems) scenario of sucking garbage in through the floppy and CD openings. So it could be that your drives could do with a good cleaning. Freon TF is what I use, but methyl or ethyl alcohol would probably work almost as well. On most computers made in the last 10 years or so, I suspect that the floppy drive doesn't get much use, so wear problems should be a nonissue unless you're recycling very old and very used drives. If you want to see media that fails even faster than DSHD, try some DSEDs on a 2.88MB drive (if you can still find the media, that is). Cheers, Chuck From john at guntersville.net Sun Aug 19 13:06:17 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:06:17 -0500 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C88699.8090800@guntersville.net> dwight elvey wrote: >>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:50:57 -0600> > Ade Vickers wrote:> > Hi guys...> > > > I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work.> > Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid> > media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message.> Same here. Pretty much all of the 3.5" don't work reliably anymore.> But 9-tracks from the 70's are fine, 8" and 5.25" floppies are fine.> Just plain weird. > > Hi > Much of the probems I've see are also drive related. > For some reason the possitioning of the tracks seems > to fail often. Soem have had luck with adjusting the > track zero sensor but what I've seem is related to the > small plastic ball bearing used in the slides. For some > reason these tend to get flat spots and don't roll well. > Once this happens, all kinds of problems happen. > Dwight > If you try to access the disks from some versions of windows you will get that error message if there isn't some info in the first track that is specific to microsoft. PCDOS didn't check for it but would put it in there so the tater DOS and windows could use the disks. Most other OSs format programs didn't put the proper info in there for microsoft to recognize them. I remember that windows 98se didn't like a bulk erased disk or a disk formatted in Linux. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 19 12:46:07 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:46:07 -0400 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: <0JN100DDH80LIXK8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Broken floppy disks > From: "e.stiebler" > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:50:57 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Ade Vickers wrote: >> Hi guys... >> >> I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work. >> Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid >> media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message. >Same here. Pretty much all of the 3.5" don't work reliably anymore. >But 9-tracks from the 70's are fine, 8" and 5.25" floppies are fine. >Just plain weird. Sounds like the drive is dead not media. Hwoever I've had media that needed bulk erase before format. One check is that if the drive was dirty (heads fouled) it will scratch good media and make it permanently bad media. In every case like that slide the whutter open and check the media before and after, scratches show! Allison > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 19 13:13:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:13:31 -0400 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: <0JN100DIU9A8IVK8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Broken floppy disks > From: Mr Ian Primus > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've had pretty good reliability with 3 1/2" disks, if >you keep the drive clean, and make sure that the disks >aren't dirty or have that "gritty" sound to them, they >typically work OK. > >I typically use the fdformat (or superformat) under >Linux - you can have it format the whole disk before >going back and verifying, sometimes it might take a >pass or two before the disk verifies OK. Degaussing >the disks with a bulk eraser would be a good idea too. > >But be sure that your drive is good and clean. I've >also had better luck with older floppy drives - >Mitsumi, Chinon and Teac drives seem to be very >reliable. Blow the fuzzies out before use. Cleaning the head after you get a bad media situation is advised. >Also, be sure your BIOS is set right - I had a hell of >a time a couple weeks ago trying to write a disk on a >PC here, it was just a simple boot disk, but I tried >four floppies, checking the image, reformatting, etc - >then I remembered that last time I used the PC, I had >a 1.2mb 5 1/4" drive as drive 0. Bios was set wrong, >and the whole time I was trying to write data to the >disk at the wrong data rate. Doh! > >-Ian I've had the same results with 8,5.25 and 3.5 media. They all work well for me, I keep the drive clean and dust bunny free and problems are rare. I worked in a place that had a fair amount of dust and if I didn't clean out the 3.5" drives once every 4 months they would destroy media. It wasn't a media problem it was gritty dust getting in there. I must have over 400 3.5" floppies of both flavors (720/1.44) and all but 100 are recycled prior use media that never give trouble unless the drive was at fault (dust). One comment regarding PC fans. PCs suck air in and often that means through the floppy and other holes in the case and out through the fan. This tend to dirty up everything very badly. I have an older P166 (workhorse system) that I reversed the fan, added a second fan blowing in and put simple fine mesh screens on the outside of both. I get far better life out of CPU coolers, floppies and CDrom drives as a result. I've made this change on other machines with similar results. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 14:40:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:40:45 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some > tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we > attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. I found out that the minimum requirement was 209MB. BTW, glad you got home ok. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 19 15:34:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:34:49 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:40 PM -0400 8/19/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some >>tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we >>attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. > >I found out that the minimum requirement was 209MB. > >BTW, glad you got home ok. > >Peace... Sridhar What version were you trying to load? With that high I'm guessing OpenVMS 7.3? Since Ian mentioned that he's using an ESDI drive, how hard is it to find something in the 200-500MB range these days? It has been 8+ years since I last looked for ESDI drives and around here it wasn't easy, but I know other areas differ. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 16:01:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:01:23 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 13:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Since Ian mentioned that he's using an ESDI drive, how hard is it to > find something in the 200-500MB range these days? It has been 8+ > years since I last looked for ESDI drives and around here it wasn't > easy, but I know other areas differ. ESDI hard drives on the used market seem to cluster in two groups. 150MB or less and more than 600MB. In particualar, Maxtor/Miniscribe 760MB units and Hitachi 780MB drives seem to be not uncommon and available for less than USD$100 from a number of retailers. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 16:05:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:05:51 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C8B0AF.9020408@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:40 PM -0400 8/19/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some >>> tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we >>> attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. >> >> I found out that the minimum requirement was 209MB. >> >> BTW, glad you got home ok. > > What version were you trying to load? With that high I'm guessing > OpenVMS 7.3? 7.2 > Since Ian mentioned that he's using an ESDI drive, how hard is it to > find something in the 200-500MB range these days? It has been 8+ years > since I last looked for ESDI drives and around here it wasn't easy, but > I know other areas differ. I have a 310MB drive somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Or he could get an SDI or DSSI disk going. I have a whole load of 2GB DSSI disks, one of which he could have. Peace... Sridhar From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 19 16:14:39 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:14:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C81B9A.14753.41979CC6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <342025.50200.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Chuck Guzis wrote:> > The sad fact is that most diskettes > manufactured in the last decade > or so are pretty miserable. Awhile back, I > purchased a few hundred > Imation "made in USA" DSHDs. Thus far, the > results have been mixed. > One odd thing is that the boxes state "Lifetime > Warranty, see inside > for details". Well, there's nothing inside... > I used to buy Imation disks for use on my Amiga's (when they were working). After I realised how crap they were (various failures) and how poorly made they were (simply by write-protecting the disks I would break the glue bond between the casing and a visable gap would appear on the underside). I bought 30 disks (3 boxes of 10) before switching to Verbatim disks - a much higher quality casing and no errors at all on the 40 odd disks I got before my Amiga's went down last year. I believe there is there a way to read Amiga floppy disks on a PC/laptop, but it was on backtoroots.org which has gone :( Does anyone have the documentation for it? I really would like to continue with a project I started last year which is on some of my floppies. I could start again, but that would mean 100's of hours of work down the tube :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 16:18:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:18:15 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com>, <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C8B397.7020901@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Aug 2007 at 13:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Since Ian mentioned that he's using an ESDI drive, how hard is it to >> find something in the 200-500MB range these days? It has been 8+ >> years since I last looked for ESDI drives and around here it wasn't >> easy, but I know other areas differ. > > ESDI hard drives on the used market seem to cluster in two groups. > 150MB or less and more than 600MB. In particualar, Maxtor/Miniscribe > 760MB units and Hitachi 780MB drives seem to be not uncommon and > available for less than USD$100 from a number of retailers. Do you have a link? Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 16:07:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:07:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <46C70F40.20303.3D7F5A3B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 18, 7 03:24:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 Aug 2007 at 22:30, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It's much more likely to be a 'formatted' interface. With a 50 pin > > connector, my first guess would be QIC-02. > > Doesn't appear to be QIC-02, at least not with any of my adapters > (can't select, can't get meaningful device status). More likely some > proprietary interface. It's not SCSI, either. :) If it's a custom interface, it could be anything, including a 'raw' interface (the custom controller could know about the tape markers, etc and know not to overwrite them). I think (although I've not done any real investigations) that the interfave between the drive mechanism and the controller board(s) inside the HP9144 is a raw, low-level interface, for example (and it is a 50 pin cable, but I very much doubt that's what your drive uses) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 17:01:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:01:42 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <46C8B397.7020901@gmail.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C8B397.7020901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C85B56.13863.42909241@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 17:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Do you have a link? Sure, try these on for size: http://www.4drives.com/ http://www.sdperipherals.com/ http://www.partstore.com/ http://arcdrives.com/store/ And many others. Prices vary wildly, but arcdrives and 4drives seem to have the best prices. Cheers, Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 19 17:06:57 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:06:57 -0600 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46C89CBD.1000906@gmail.com>, <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C8BF01.8090103@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ESDI hard drives on the used market seem to cluster in two groups. > 150MB or less and more than 600MB. In particualar, Maxtor/Miniscribe > 760MB units and Hitachi 780MB drives seem to be not uncommon and > available for less than USD$100 from a number of retailers. And the group in between ;-) I had myself a lot of the maxtor xt-4380, which is around 360 MBytes. (used them even on pdp/vax and dilog controllers) The show up now and then on ebay ... From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Aug 19 17:09:13 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:09:13 -0700 Subject: radio shack science fair manual References: <352346.65593.qm@web38804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c7e2ad$94640170$0201a8c0@hal9000> Don, The manual doesn't lend itself as being easy to copy and shipping would be high. There is a kit WITH the manual on Ebay right now; http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-130-IN-ONE-ELETRONIC-PROJECT-LAB-w-BOX-N-R_W 0QQitemZ270155304132QQihZ017QQcategoryZ11737QQcmdZViewItem His shipping is ridiculous but it will get you a manual. Good luck. Let us know if this doesn't work and maybe we'll go to plan "B" . Best regards. Steven > I found your post in the Internet and was wondering if you found a manual for the 130 in one kit yet? I just took mine out of the closet to show my son and the manual is missing. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Don From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 17:11:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:11:52 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <342025.50200.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <46C81B9A.14753.41979CC6@cclist.sydex.com>, <342025.50200.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C85DB8.13983.4299E046@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 22:14, Andrew Burton wrote: > I used to buy Imation disks for use on my Amiga's (when they were > working). After I realised how crap they were (various failures) and > how poorly made they were (simply by write-protecting the disks I > would break the glue bond between the casing and a visable gap would > appear on the underside). I bought 30 disks (3 boxes of 10) before > switching to Verbatim disks - a much higher quality casing and no > errors at all on the 40 odd disks I got before my Amiga's went down > last year. I used to buy Sony 3.5" DSHD diskettes by the thousand. They were passable, but newer stock is of lower quality than the old stock. The sad fact is that there's almost no competition/demand for floppies nowadays and you live with what you can find. I was a big fan of Dysan floppies. Just before the Sunnyvale operation closed up shop, I was sent a some alignment diskettes and other goodies (such as a few Drivetec disks) by a fellow in their support department who thought I might be interested. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 19 17:07:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:07:30 +0100 Subject: PERQ T2 faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C8BF22.6090705@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > What I would do is first check that the hard disk is going ready -- that > is with a logic probe on the control connector with the drive cabled up > to the PERQ. Presumably I can do that on the bench - I think it's just a case of applying power and twiddling the appropriate drive select line so that the drive enables the output control signals... (I'll check via bitsavers - I think the drive selects are active-low) Worst-case if the drive's hosed, we've got various install disks - just a question of whether there's a formatter (low or high level) in there somewhere! cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:25:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:25:09 -0400 Subject: Looking for... Message-ID: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> IBM PS/2 Model 9595 chassis -- an 8595 chassis won't do Syskonnect Microchannel FDDI cards Any turbochannel cards (PMAZC, PMAD, PMAG-C -D -E -F, etc) DEC Star coupler CI cables CI for any bus BA441 chassis (I need four) BA431 chassis MS690 Memory DEFQA Cab kit for DEMFA MS02-CA Memory DEFTA RA73 (did they make an RA74?) ChipChat sound card Roland CM-500 CIPCA In addition, I will need two racks soon. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Aug 19 19:22:23 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:22:23 -0500 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C7F86C.5212.410E2A8E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <200708192326.l7JNQGCC015481@hosting.monisys.ca> > > .... are 3.5" 1.44MB floppies just inherently useless? > Once written, 3.5" DSHD floppies seem to retain their information > well enough; they just don't like being rewritten. Degaussing > sometimes helps temporarily reclaim a floppy for another use. I've observed this MANY times, and I agree with Chuck that it's the most likely cause... but there's another thing which may be a factor. Windows and even "bare" DOS try and read block 0 to see what kind of disk it is - if it's unreadable in a certain way, it fails with "track 0 bad" ... You can't even format these disks. So in some cases, a disk that refuses to format can be recovered by using ImageDisk to write a good image to it. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:27:08 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:27:08 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <46C85B56.13863.42909241@cclist.sydex.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46C84D33.1118.42595B98@cclist.sydex.com> <46C8B397.7020901@gmail.com> <46C85B56.13863.42909241@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708191627n3659ea84i9430c7868bc89c4a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Aug 2007 at 17:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Do you have a link? > > Sure, try these on for size: > > http://www.4drives.com/ I have had good luck so far with eBay sales from 4drives (Discount Computer Perhipherals) aka brickcollector. http://stores.ebay.com/4DRIVES-COM-OUTLET For example they currently have a ST4383E 380MB listed for $25. I picked up some working 155MB ESDI drives for $10 each from them at one point and some working 630MB ESDI drives for $25 each a while ago. Shipping adds up though. Also look at this one which is two drives and two QD21 controllers. (No connection to seller): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120152910171 From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 19 18:53:18 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:53:18 -0600 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C8D7EE.9040500@e-bbes.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Any turbochannel cards (PMAZC, PMAD, PMAG-C -D -E -F, etc) > MS02-CA Memory > In addition, I will need two racks soon. What do you need all that stuff for ? I just trew away a box of TURBOChannel stuff away. And racks ? which ones ? Cheers From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 19:07:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:07:37 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <46C8D7EE.9040500@e-bbes.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <46C8D7EE.9040500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46C8DB49.8060202@gmail.com> e.stiebler wrote: >> Any turbochannel cards (PMAZC, PMAD, PMAG-C -D -E -F, etc) >> MS02-CA Memory >> In addition, I will need two racks soon. > > What do you need all that stuff for ? I have a bunch of machines I'm trying to build out. > I just trew away a box of TURBOChannel stuff away. Aaah!! > And racks ? which ones ? I like the DEC beige 7' ones, but really most racks will do. Peace... Sridhar From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 19 19:29:02 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:29:02 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Free C64 available References: <000501c7e2bf$7e87d310$55dd3542@SteveCichorsky> Message-ID: <200708191729020712.191A99E6@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, Attached is a message that popped in from the Telephone Collectors mailing list. It appears that someone has a complete C64 and floppy drive available, both free, if anyone wants. Contact the original poster (steve at telephonepioneer.net), not me. Thanks. *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 19-Aug-07 at 17:17 Steve Cichorsky wrote: >On the odd chance someone is nostalgic for the ?good ?ol days,? I?m >offering ?free to a good home,? Commodore 64 computer and associated >VIC-1541 floppy disk-drive. Both have their respective manuals included. >In addition, I?m including a Supra Corporation serial interface. >Otherwise it?s going to be chucked in dump-trailer along with other >?treasures? that are victims of my ongoing cleanup. > >I used this set-up in my previous life as the Chief Engineer of a group of >Broadcast stations, along with a Hallikainen And Friends > ( >http://sujan.hallikainen.org/BroadcastHistory/index.php/HallikainenAndFriends ) Tel171 software to interface a Moseley TRC-15A analog transmitter control system to automatically log broadcast transmitter parameters and make appropriate adjustments to keep it within FCC tolerances. > >By the way, Harold Hallikainen was our local broadcast engineering guru >and manufacturer who was always available to impose on for help >troubleshooting a down transmitter at 3AM. >Even major manufacturers and organizations such as the National >Association of Broadcasters, Gates/Harris, Continental, Elcom-Bauer, >Moseley, etc. would consult with him regarding updating features, etc. >---Aim a cannon at the Transmitter--- >As with the phone industry, broadcasting has undergone major changes that >are generally not positive. In an article that Harold wrote for Radio >World (http://www.hallikainen.org/rw/insite/insite96.html) in 1998, he >quoted an FCC inspector commenting on the fail-safe transmitter shut down >methods at attended locations; >>>> An FCC staff member advised stations to have some alternate means of >shutting down the transmitter should the PSTN circuit fail. He suggested >use of an STL carrier sense relay, program silence sense, a dedicated part >74 radio link, or the use of a well aimed cannon.<<< >Thanks- >Steve Cichorsky > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >Group web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires >The TCI web site is at http://www.telephonecollectors.org >TCI Picture Place: http://www.telephonecollectors.org/pictures/ > (Picture posting password: tciphotos ) > No password is required to see the pictures. >Yahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires/ > ><*> Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > ><*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires/join > (Yahoo! ID required) > ><*> To change settings via email: > mailto:singingwires-digest at yahoogroups.com > mailto:singingwires-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > singingwires-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 19:55:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:55:56 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <200708192326.l7JNQGCC015481@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers>, <46C7F86C.5212.410E2A8E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200708192326.l7JNQGCC015481@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46C8842C.2168.433012EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 19:22, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Windows and even "bare" DOS try and read block 0 to see what kind of > disk it is - if it's unreadable in a certain way, it fails with "track > 0 bad" ... You can't even format these disks. Well, DOS 6.x had the /f switch on the FORMAT command--which told DOS to forget about trying to read the disk, just format it. I believe that DOS 7.x ignores /f. And for DOS, there are always third-party formatters. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 19 20:55:11 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:55:11 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708192155.11635.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 19 August 2007 19:25, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Syskonnect Microchannel FDDI cards > CI for any bus I've got some microchannel FDDI cards (some are SK, have to see how many), and a spare XMI CI interface. What do you have to offer in trade? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 19 21:51:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:51:35 -0400 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> References: <200708161332.l7GDVaAe037344@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708192251.35603.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 16 August 2007 17:42, Jason T wrote: > On 8/16/07, Mark Tapley wrote: > > ...lots of good stuff... > > > > >Any advice is appreciated! > > > > Heh. Sure hope you meant that literally; apologies if not. > > Indeed! And thanks to everyone for piping in on this. It's great to > hear from so many on the subject. So far, I've distilled this: > > - The consensus does seem to be "no tapes or disks," which won't be a > big problem for me as they don't take up much space and can be kept at > home. I do have some boxed original software (CBM, Apple, etc) I'd > like to store because of its bulk. I suppose I can extract the disks > in most cases and take my chances with the shrink-wrapped stuff. I've got some disks in storage, dunno how well they're doing, but I haven't seen any obvious problems. > - Paper will be a problem, as I had hoped to move a magazine > collection there at least through the winter. It was suggested that > allowing it to "breathe" is better than keeping it (and an amount of > moisture) trapped inside plastic would be the better choice. Perhaps > leaving them boxed but without plastic, plus a desiccant of some kind > (a bag of silica gel in each box?) might do the job. I have magazines sitting there in storage too, and a fair amount of other paper. None of this stuff seems to be suffering any ill effects. But then I don't recall seeing any other signs of moisture in there. I did get burned pretty badly throwing some stuff in storage a number of years ago, in the town where I'm living now as it turns out, and there was a bit of an opening in the rear wall of the place. This was apparently enough to let some nontrivial moisture in, ruining a portion of my books that were in there in the process, stuff that's literally irreplaceable. I knew I had a problem when I went over there one winter day and found a sheet of ice at the bottom of the door, extending into the unit once I'd pried the rubber seal at the door bottom loose enough to open it. Moisture has been a real concern for me ever since, though I haven't had much of a problem with it in any of the storage places I've had since then. > - Concrete floors = dust and moisture. The storage facility itself is > basically a garage - 10x15ft, about 9-10ft high with a large sliding > door. The floor is heavily painted concrete (apparently thanks to the > previous tenant as no others were like this.) I'm thinking a false > floor constructed of bricks and plywood plus a plastic tarp might help > keep the bottom items dry. Concrete floors are not a problem in my experience either, particularly since I've got enough junk stuffed in there that you can't see most of the floor. :-) > - Things are going to rust. See moisture problems above. I guess it > isn't unreasonable to wrap a uVax II in plastic with a bag of silica > inside. I've not found that to be much of a problem either, really. > - I'm going to abuse the newfound space and just get more crap until I > can't move around my house. Quite likely. That will be a matter of > willpower on my part. Thanks to Mark Tapley for a great rundown of > his method of self-control. :) Despite the storage, I'm still going > to have a packed basement, garage, closets and office. But the stuff > has started to occupy permanent positions in the kitchen, dining room, > living room, etc. No comps, classic or otherwise, in the bathrooms as > of yet. I'm hoping I can develop a "one (or two) projects at a time" > mentality this way, keeping a lot of excess gear down the road a bit > might help me focus and see things through to completion. Yeah, I > know, good luck on that too :) That's way worse than I am. In our last place the junk overflowed my office (the larger of the two bedrooms in that apartment) and had started down the hall, at this point I have much of that up in the attic, some in the basement. It's a tradeoff between heat and dampness. :-( > This has also made me rethink my plans for moving to a new house > (perhaps in a year or so.) Part of my criteria was enough outdoor > space that I could build a large garage or barn to hold all my gear, > but even if I managed that it would be unheated/cooled, much like a > storage facility, and thus only fit for certain storage. Perhaps I > should just settle for a large (dry) basement. I too have as a goal sufficient space that I can have one or more outbuildings, both for storage and for workshop space. I've had way too much time spent in basements, and detest the idea of doing such, if I can avoid it. So it's on my list, if and when we stop renting and look for a place to buy... Better yet, I hope to end up far enough out in the country that I won't have to worry about permits, etc. when it comes to putting something together that suits my requirements... > OK, this is becoming too much like a 12-step support group. Back to > our regularly scheduled collecting... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 19 22:04:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:04:43 -0400 Subject: Need a CBM 8032 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <200708171550.l7HFouqw031585@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200708192304.43518.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 17 August 2007 12:16, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/17/07, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > I'm looking for a CBM 8032 keyboard, or possibly just a key/keycap. > > > > On the off chance there are several keyboards or a source of keyswitches > > floating around, "Me too! Me too!" I have two broken switches, the 0 > > and . on the keypad. (Keycaps are gone too, of course.) > > Me too! Me too! ;-) > > Seriously, though... I have an 8032 keyboard that I dropped on a > concrete floor. The impact snapped off a couple of keystems. I > _have_ the keycaps, but just need to pull the board off the back and > drop in a couple new stems. > > If someone is unearthing a pile of parts, please let me know. > > Thanks, > > -ethan Three of you guys? I don't know how similar they are, but I have a box somewhere that has a bunch of c64 keyboards in it, some partially scavenged for just that problem, broken key actuator stems. If anybody knows whether or not these will work please let me know! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 19 22:24:11 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:24:11 -0400 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 17 August 2007 20:27, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Aug 2007 at 22:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > The OP might want to look at that site and follow the links for > > 'storage', 'magnetic tape' and 'HP9144' (or 'HP9145'). I think that will > > turn up a like or twon that will be helpful > > Thanks, Tony. Mystery solved. The drive in question probably takes > DC600HC or DC600XTD "Iotamat" preformatted tapes. That would explain > the 3M-labeled EPROM on the tape MPU board (uses an MC6800). Well, > the drive will go back onto the shelf; I don't even know what the 50- > conductor interface is supposed to connect to, though I suspect it > may be a cousin of a QIC-36 type. I'm a bit confused by all those QIC designations, since they sometimes seem to refer to completely different things... Got one drive here that has a 50-pin connector, and it came along with an 8-bit ISA card -- some sort of a proprietary interface, and I have no idea about the spec. I installed it in a box way back when I was first starting to get going with linux (1999 or 2000?), got it working to the point where I could get tar to write some data to a tape, and that was the extent of it. I still have it somewhere... I also ran into another drive, an Archive (something)L-50 if I'm remembering right, that was in an NCR tower that left my posession some time ago -- that one was SCSI, and also used a 50-pin connector. Any chance the one you have is SCSI? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 19 22:33:46 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:33:46 -0400 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <200708192333.46749.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 19 August 2007 10:31, Ade Vickers wrote: > PS: Most of my old 5.25" disks, despite being up to 30 years old, are all > working fine. Similarly, most of my old Sinclair microdrive cassettes, > which are >20 years old, are also fine - at least, the ones where the > little foam pad hasn't perished are. Similarly, many of the compact > cassettes I have for various old 20+ year old home computers still work.... > are 3.5" 1.44MB floppies just inherently useless? Not in my experience, but it seems that a fair number of drives are. I've had bad luck with some brands, and try to stay away from them, including one Alps that let the magic smoke out on first powerup, and assorted Mitsumi and some others. If I can, I prefer Sony, they seem a bit more reliable, though there are no doubt some others. Got a whole box of drives around so if one won't read/format a floppy I'll try another before I assume that the problem is with the floppy rather than the drive. For whatever that's worth... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From marvin at west.net Sun Aug 19 22:45:52 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:45:52 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net> > Well, DOS 6.x had the /f switch on the FORMAT command--which told DOS > to forget about trying to read the disk, just format it. I believe > that DOS 7.x ignores /f. And for DOS, there are always third-party > formatters. > > Cheers, > Chuck I think you meant the /u switch. The /f switch normally requires some other parameters telling how to format the disk. BTW, some interesting comments. I've always been curious why I could bulk erase a disk and it would sometimes show up with a track 0 bad error (win98se.) Now I'm going to have to try formatting on an earlier version of DOS. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 19 22:53:02 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:53:02 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? Message-ID: <200708192353.03028.rtellason@verizon.net> I have some of the following parts, maybe you guys can help me ID this stuff? -- Several tubes of what appear to be resistor packs, branded "Beckman" and bearing the part number 1899-258-0, not found under Beckman anywhere --3 tubes of white ceramic-cased w/gold chips marked 1449-1112, I *think* this is some kind of DRAM? Also probably _not_ Burroughs, a tube of 18-20 parts with the number 8041016A on each of them and what I *think* is a Tandy logo (T on the top, C on the bottom, sort of an hourglass shape?). Can you guys help me figure out what these are? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 19 23:18:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:18:50 -0700 Subject: The storage question In-Reply-To: <200708192251.35603.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200708161332.l7GDVaAe037344@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730708161442j2aadfd81jd7d5238c9c486582@mail.gmail.com> <200708192251.35603.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 10:51 PM -0400 8/19/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I've got some disks in storage, dunno how well they're doing, but I haven't >seen any obvious problems. I've got quite a few disks and video tapes in storage. I used some of the C64 floppies last fall/winter, and they'd been up there for several years. Winters in storage aren't bad, but it can get ***** hot in the summer (heated unit, but not cooled). I honestly have no idea how the video tapes are fairing. I know my Dad left one of my tapes in his truck in the heat a few years back and it didn't play right after that. Basically I try to keep as much as I can at home, and don't put any magnetic media I really care about into storage. >I have magazines sitting there in storage too, and a fair amount of other >paper. None of this stuff seems to be suffering any ill effects. But then I >don't recall seeing any other signs of moisture in there. I did get burned Heated storage units really help, and stay away from units where one side of the unit is on the outer walls. Heated units with a outer wall will have a serious difference in temperature and condensation will be an issue. Thankfully neither of my units have outside walls. > > OK, this is becoming too much like a 12-step support group. Back to > > our regularly scheduled collecting... > >:-) I've been saying for years that Classic Computer collecting is a disease, I like to think I'm on the mend, but I still have way to much junk. Plus I'm the one responsible for that side of things with the Library (we do take donations of classic computer documentation BTW). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 19 23:39:40 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:39:40 -0500 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C8842C.2168.433012EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers>, <46C7F86C.5212.410E2A8E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200708192326.l7JNQGCC015481@hosting.monisys.ca> <46C8842C.2168.433012EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C91B0C.4080204@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, DOS 6.x had the /f switch on the FORMAT command--which told DOS > to forget about trying to read the disk, just format it. I believe > that DOS 7.x ignores /f. And for DOS, there are always third-party > formatters. I think you're referring to the /u switch, not /f. /f was used as a shortcut to the size (ie. /F:720 was the same as /T:80 /N:9) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 23:51:26 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:51:26 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:45:52 -0700 > > > Well, DOS 6.x had the /f switch on the FORMAT command--which told DOS > > to forget about trying to read the disk, just format it. I believe > > that DOS 7.x ignores /f. And for DOS, there are always third-party > > formatters.> > > > Cheers,> > Chuck> > I think you meant the /u switch. The /f switch normally requires some other> parameters telling how to format the disk.> > BTW, some interesting comments. I've always been curious why I could bulk erase> a disk and it would sometimes show up with a track 0 bad error (win98se.) Now> I'm going to have to try formatting on an earlier version of DOS. I've had problems with the /f switch as well. For work with my Olivetti M20, I need a couple disk formatted as 320K disk. I've found that none of my formatting tools will reformat a 360K disk as a 320K disk. That is, unless I destroy the 360K format some how. Luckily, I've found that formatting on the M20 ( that puts FM on the first track ), is enough that the format tools think it has random data and will reformat to 320K if I ask for /f:320. I have used a magnet as well but I prefer to not use that method. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Messenger Caf? ? open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 19 23:53:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:53:54 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net> References: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net> Message-ID: <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 20:45, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I think you meant the /u switch. The /f switch normally requires some other > parameters telling how to format the disk. There is the /u (unconditional) switch but IIRC, specifying /f used to result in an implied /u. e.g. /f:1440 was the same as /f:1440 /u. But maybe not in all versions. There were also a few undocumented switches in the older versions of FORMAT, such as the one for "don't ask for a console go-ahead, just format the darned floppy." (Used by the BACKUP utility)--was it /h? When you're under 2K or XP or other versions of NT, the driver first tries to determine the type of the disk you're trying to format by reading the first sector. If the disk contains some alien format, the driver can grind for a very long time before it figures that it doesn't recognize the format of the original. It is possible to write a formatter that operates under these OS-es that doesn't do the initial check. If you're running MS-DOS, though, there are plenty of other choices. I still ocaasionally use CONFMT to format diskettes in the background while I'm doing other things (if you want a copy, drop me a private email and I'll see that you get one). Microsolutions offered a similar product with the CompatiCard also. For formatting a batch of diskettes when you have more than one drive and are running DOS, you can't beat FORMATQM. (Just my humble opinion :) ) Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 23:55:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:55:58 -0400 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C91B0C.4080204@oldskool.org> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers>, <46C7F86C.5212.410E2A8E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200708192326.l7JNQGCC015481@hosting.monisys.ca> <46C8842C.2168.433012EA@cclist.sydex.com> <46C91B0C.4080204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46C91EDE.8080509@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, DOS 6.x had the /f switch on the FORMAT command--which told DOS >> to forget about trying to read the disk, just format it. I believe >> that DOS 7.x ignores /f. And for DOS, there are always third-party >> formatters. > > I think you're referring to the /u switch, not /f. /f was used as a > shortcut to the size (ie. /F:720 was the same as /T:80 /N:9) Yes, it's /u for "unconditional". Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 00:08:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:08:13 -0700 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com>, <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46C8BF4D.4044.44170885@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2007 at 23:24, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm a bit confused by all those QIC designations, since they sometimes seem > to refer to completely different things... QIC-02 and QIC-36 relate to the drive interface; terms such as QIC- 525 relate to the number of tracks on a certain cartridge type (QIC- 525, for example records 26 tracks on a DC6525 cart). QIC-36 is the "dumb" interface. You'll usually see the controllers for these drives having an MPU and a bunch of memory as well as data separator circuitry. Think of it as a floppy controller for tape. Usually at least a 2/3-length ISA card. QIC-02 is the "smart" interface. QIC-02 cards typically have not very much circuitry--a couple of latches, some address decoding and perhaps some DMA and interrupt arbitration logic. Easy to fit on an half-length ISA card. There did exist QIC-36 to QIC-02 converter boards. Regardless of the controller used, software usually treats both types the same. In other words, I can change my Caliper QIC-36 drive with Wangtek controller for a Tandberg QIC-02 drive with Alliance controller without changing driver software. Even more confusing, both types of interface use a 50 pin cable and both have drive selects from 0 to 3. > I also ran into another drive, an Archive (something)L-50 if I'm remembering > right, that was in an NCR tower that left my posession some time ago -- that > one was SCSI, and also used a 50-pin connector. Any chance the one you have > is SCSI? Nope-- even more confusing, on the one I have, there's a rotary unit selector switch that goes from 0-4 (!). I thought it might be QIC- 02, but it's not--won't even select the drive. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 20 00:46:28 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:46:28 -0500 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net> <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46C92AB4.40105@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For formatting a batch of > diskettes when you have more than one drive and are running DOS, you > can't beat FORMATQM. > > (Just my humble opinion :) ) Ah, but does it format multiple diskettes simultaneously? (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 02:22:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:22:39 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C92AB4.40105@oldskool.org> References: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net>, <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C92AB4.40105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46C8DECF.1195.44921DF8@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2007 at 0:46, Jim Leonard wrote: > Ah, but does it format multiple diskettes simultaneously? (ducking) No, but you could use SyDupe to do the job. Compaticards however, seem to be in short supply nowadays, to say nothing of ISA bus systems. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 20 02:56:02 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:56:02 +0200 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:25:09 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > CI cables CI cables are ordinary 50 Ohm coax cables with TNC connectors. If you rip off the bajonet shell of the BNC connector you can use cheapernet / coax Ethernet cables. (TNC and BNC use the same inner part of the connector. Only the locking shell is different.) You can also use TNC-to-BNC adapters and BNC cables. Or get a bunch of TNC connectors, a crimp tool and convert your old cheapernet / coax Ethernet cables to CI cables... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 20 05:29:29 2007 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:29:29 +0100 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C8DECF.1195.44921DF8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net>, <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C92AB4.40105@oldskool.org> <46C8DECF.1195.44921DF8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <028e01c7e314$fe25ce10$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Hi folks, OK, lots of interesting info there.... I'd better do a small update: I finally found a working disk (2, actually) - one, luckily, has a copy of DOS6.22 on it :) Which was good; the whole purpose of this exercise (a bit off-topic, I'm afraid) was to apply the "no_f1" patch to a Compaq running linux. The "track 0" problem & drives: I've had this issue, on & off, since before Y2000. It's been getting steadily worse as the disks age. This is across multiple PCs, multiple different floppy drives, and so on. I must admit, I don't have a 3.5" head cleaner; and dust ingress could be a significant factor. I was expecting the heads to be a bit mucky, so I ran a "known scrap" disk through the drive a few times, before going looking for a "proper" one. There's no evidence of scratching on any of the disks I tried, so I don't believe they're suffering from gritty dust; maybe an accumulation of general detrieus? The disks themselves are kept in their form-fitting plasticised-cardboard boxes, and are pretty clean for their age. I also have several 720k disks, kept in the same environment, and a few 720k drives, also NOT kept dust-free. These, despite their similar or greater age to the 1440k disks, all work (at least, all the ones I tested). Having said about the 5.25" disks - I've realised that not all is quite sweetness & light.... I have lots of DSDD *drives* here, with various machines, but almost no DSDD *disks* - most of the disks are DSHD.... and they generally simply will not format on a DD drive.... Does anyone (in the UK) have a good source of 5.25" DSDD disks? Cheers, Ade. PS: Thanks for all the replies; a) I'm glad it's not just me!, and b) some good things to try, when I get some time next weekend. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/961 - Release Date: 19/08/2007 07:27 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 05:33:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:33:44 +0200 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <24261.99827.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/19/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, Sridhar and I spent yesterday doing some > tinkering - I brought over my MicroVax II and we > attempted to load VMS onto it. Easier said than done. > By shuffleing parts around (and some considerable work > getting ribbon cables through the bulkhead of a BA23), > I was able to get a Microvax II configured with: > Ethernet, ESDI w/ 70mb hard disk, and a TK50. OK. That's slightly smaller than an RD53, which clocks in at 73MB, IIRC. > I brought this Vax to Sridhar's house. The general > consensus both here and on the netbsd list seems to be > that the only way to boot/install a Vax is through > MOP, over Ethernet. Consensus? I don't think that's entirely accurate. I've performed well over a dozen installs of VMS and Ultrix entirely from magnetic media (we never had Ethernet at Software Results). If you have a matching standalone backup kit and copies of original distro kits, you can boot the standalone kit and install the distro. OTOH, if you already have have a working machine and you don't have copies of the distro kit on TK50/16MT9/whatever, then MOP and Ethernet is another way to go. Obviously, it's the way you've chosen, and it should be possible, so... > Well, now that I found Ethernet, > it should have been simple. Sridhar has a Dec > InfoServer 1000. This is a really cool little device > the size of a CDROM player that can connect to a SCSI > CD drive, and Ethernet, and be bootable by networked > Vaxen. Yep. A very nice little box. We also never got CD distros at SRC, so I never got to play with one there, but I did see them at DECUS. > So, we cabled everything up, and immediately hit a > snag... if > anyone is trying to connect a drive to an InfoServer > 1000 using the 50 pin SCSI header on the InfoServer's > board - that connector is BACKWARD! You must use a > non-keyed cable and plug it in BACKWARD in order to > make it work. How odd. Good spotting that one. > After getting that going, and getting all the commands > correct to boot the Vax off the InfoServer - all > seemed well. Do the base restore set from the > InfoServer, boot from the hard disk, follow the > prompts and install the rest of the distribution. This > is a 70mb ESDI disk, so after the base load, I had > about 65000 blocks free. According to the installer, > the Library, Help and DecNet phase IV will fit, just > barely, with 300 blocks to spare. It won't. The > installer runs out of space and crashes horribly. You don't mention what version of VMS you are attempting to install. The SPD for your version should explain what DEC drives are compatible as system drives. I have run VMS 5.x on a MicroVAX II w/RD53. For anything newer, I've had to jump up to an RD54 or SDI drives (I've never had a uVAX II w/SCSI) I did have a working VMS 6.0 system on a single RD54. It wasn't a simple install, as I recall. We had to fiddle some stuff to make it all fit. > At this point, it was 3:30 AM. We decided to call it a > day (night?).... There has > to be a way to get an OS onto a Vax in 70 megabytes. Check the SPD for your version - If it says it will install on an RD53, you have a chance. If it does not list the RD53, then I think you may continue to hit your head with the installer script. MicroVMS or VMS 4.x will definitely fit. VMS 5.5 should almost certainly fit. VMS 6.0, or newer, will probably not fit. I wouldn't trust the installer to be precise to the block on its space estimates, either. It was probably tested with DEC drives, and known to work with certain models. You literally might be running into a space problem because temp files and unpacked savesets might be chewing up the difference in size between your ESDI drive and an RD53. -ethan From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Aug 20 07:18:36 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:18:36 -0500 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C8842C.2168.433012EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200708192326.l7JNQGCC015481@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200708201122.l7KBMUaC011658@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Windows and even "bare" DOS try and read block 0 to see what kind of > > disk it is - if it's unreadable in a certain way, it fails with "track > > 0 bad" ... You can't even format these disks. > > Well, DOS 6.x had the /f switch on the FORMAT command--which told DOS > to forget about trying to read the disk, just format it. I believe > that DOS 7.x ignores /f. The exact behaviour changes from one version of DOS to another - I've never had good luck formatting "soft bad" disks under DOS. >And for DOS, there are always third-party formatters. Exactly which is why I suggested ImageDisk - with a blank disk image, it's basically a third-party formatter. Anything that will format the disk without having to read it first (not even a little) should work. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 20 06:23:32 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:23:32 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <79090.16521.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <79090.16521.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C979B4.9030108@mdrconsult.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > CD booting from NetBSD may work. What I found was that > tape booting NetBSD quietly stopped working YEARS ago, > and the FAQ was never updated. I spent a whole day > trying to figure out why it wouldn't boot before I got > the response on port-vax "oh, yeah, just mop boot it". > And at that time I didn't realize I had an ethernet > card. For what it's worth, I ran NetBSD on my MV-III diskless for a long time. It was considerably faster than running on RD54. I expect that ESDI is faster than MFM, but running diskless would get you around the 70MB limit. Running swap on the local disk would not only be faster than straight diskless, but would exercise the ESDI subsystem. I've never run an InfoServer, but mopd on my Debian Linux box has booted anything I tried against it, except a DECstation 5000-200. That was a known issue with NetBSD. Doc From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 06:41:47 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C91EDE.8080509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <844129.26554.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I think you're referring to the /u switch, not /f. > /f was used as a > > shortcut to the size (ie. /F:720 was the same as > /T:80 /N:9) > > Yes, it's /u for "unconditional". > And if you want to live dangerously, add /AUTOTEST :) -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 20 07:06:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:06:58 +0100 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <028e01c7e314$fe25ce10$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <46C90E70.3645E292@west.net>, <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com>, <46C92AB4.40105@oldskool.org> <46C8DECF.1195.44921DF8@cclist.sydex.com> <028e01c7e314$fe25ce10$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <46C983E2.5000907@yahoo.co.uk> Ade Vickers wrote: > I must admit, I don't have a 3.5" head cleaner I've found anything with alcohol in it will work in an emergency - not as good as using 'proper' IPA, but good enough to temporarily see if a fault is just down to dirty heads. > I was expecting the heads to be a bit mucky With 5.25" drives I've not yet had one throw errors without the dirt actually being visible on the heads; I'm not sure if the same is true of 3.5" heads though (I have very few 3.5" disks). > Having said about the 5.25" disks - I've realised that not all is quite > sweetness & light.... I have lots of DSDD *drives* here, with various > machines, but almost no DSDD *disks* - most of the disks are DSHD.... and > they generally simply will not format on a DD drive.... I could never find a 96tpi disk when I needed one :( I quick plea on the local freecycle list turned up around 100 though, which should keep me going for a while (used, so I expect there are some duds in there) cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 07:18:55 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 05:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <46C979B4.9030108@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <712950.79644.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> For all those that asked - I was trying to install VMS 7.2. Obviously, an older version would have had a better time fitting, but this is the only version we had available. I was just realliy suprised that the installer claimed that it would fit with 10000 blocks to spare, and then promptly ran out of space. It makes sense - VMS pages to a file on the disk, and any unpacking routine would use disk, but, oh well. Live and learn. I did some digging here and found a 300 mb ESDI disk. I have no idea if it works or not, I'll give it a shot as soon as I have a chance. With regards to booting - has anyone used mopd on Linux to install VMS? I am wondering if it's possible to build up a Linux box to act as an InfoServer (I don't have one, Sridhar does). Also, does anyone have a Qbus DSSI controller that needs a home? -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 20 07:14:06 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:14:06 +0100 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46C5DA6D.25527.38C905B9@cclist.sydex.com> <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46C9858E.2040604@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I also ran into another drive, an Archive (something)L-50 if I'm remembering > right, that was in an NCR tower that left my posession some time ago -- that > one was SCSI, and also used a 50-pin connector. My Tower had an Archive 2150S in it (that drive lives on the bench hooked up to a Linux box, and occasionally gets pressed into service archiving tapes) I've seen other Tower models that have non-SCSI drives in them though (probably 60MB, and I can't recall whether they had a native drive controller in the machines or used a SCSI-to-whatever converter board) I've got various converter boards here, but I think they're all QIC-02 or QIC-36 (and SCSI at the other side). I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" QIC drive that isn't QIC-02, QIC-36, or SCSI at the interface... (having said that, I've not peered into the IBM RT's drive - it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't use something weird :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 08:07:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:07:25 +0200 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <712950.79644.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46C979B4.9030108@mdrconsult.com> <712950.79644.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/20/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > For all those that asked - I was trying to install VMS > 7.2. Obviously, an older version would have had a > better time fitting, but this is the only version we > had available. I was just realliy suprised that the > installer claimed that it would fit with 10000 blocks > to spare, and then promptly ran out of space. That's probably a faulty assumption (or perhaps a real bug) in the installer script. > It makes > sense - VMS pages to a file on the disk, and any > unpacking routine would use disk, but, oh well. Live > and learn. >From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/spd/ http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF (OpenVMS 7.2 SPD) On page 26, it claims the minimum base OS for VAX is 32MB, but there are lots of optional and non-optional extras. I don't know what the install script assumes, but the base OS plus page file plus "variable additional space" (INDEXF.SYS, etc.) is around 40MB. That doesn't count working space for unpacked savesets, default swap and dump files, etc., or the "optional" files that aren't really so optional. A "full" install is around 150MB, and indeed, the sample disk sizes were calculated from an install on a VAXserver 2000 w/6MB (RAM size affects calculated page and swap and dump sizes) and an RD54 (the largest disk supported inside a VS2K). There's a thought... cut your physical memory back... then the install script won't create such large page and swap files (and tell it not to create a dump file). That might give you a bit more room. > I did some digging here and found a 300 mb ESDI disk. > I have no idea if it works or not, I'll give it a shot > as soon as I have a chance. Good luck with that. You should find it plenty large enough. > With regards to booting - has anyone used mopd on > Linux to install VMS? I am wondering if it's possible > to build up a Linux box to act as an InfoServer (I > don't have one, Sridhar does). I have not, but if I did try it, I would begin by expecting it to work. Obviously confirmation from someone who has done it is very reassuring. > Also, does anyone have a Qbus DSSI controller that > needs a home? Nope. Sorry. I've never worked with DSSI. I had a DSSI pedestal a while back, but I gave it to another list member in Columbus. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 08:14:49 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C8BBF2.14806.4409EFF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <601903.81802.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> There were also a > few undocumented > switches in the older versions of FORMAT, such as > the one for "don't > ask for a console go-ahead, just format the darned > floppy." (Used by > the BACKUP utility)--was it /h? /autotest will format without asking or waiting. But always add the /u with it as well, otherwise it'll try to determine the existing format. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 20 08:35:49 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:35:49 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:14:49 -0700> > There were also a> > few undocumented > > switches in the older versions of FORMAT, such as> > the one for "don't > > ask for a console go-ahead, just format the darned> > floppy." (Used by > > the BACKUP utility)--was it /h?> > /autotest will format without asking or waiting. But> always add the /u with it as well, otherwise it'll try> to determine the existing format.> Hi Ian I've never tried /autotest but I have used the /u with the /f:320 command. It still won't reformat a disk that was formatted as a 360K to a 320K, unless track zero is not there. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 08:51:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:51:01 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II/VMS - why 70mb isn't enough. In-Reply-To: <712950.79644.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <712950.79644.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C99C45.8080707@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > For all those that asked - I was trying to install VMS > 7.2. Obviously, an older version would have had a > better time fitting, but this is the only version we > had available. I was just realliy suprised that the > installer claimed that it would fit with 10000 blocks > to spare, and then promptly ran out of space. It makes > sense - VMS pages to a file on the disk, and any > unpacking routine would use disk, but, oh well. Live > and learn. > > I did some digging here and found a 300 mb ESDI disk. > I have no idea if it works or not, I'll give it a shot > as soon as I have a chance. > > With regards to booting - has anyone used mopd on > Linux to install VMS? I am wondering if it's possible > to build up a Linux box to act as an InfoServer (I > don't have one, Sridhar does). You're welcome to come back and use it again. We have to do that other machine anyway. It should go a lot faster now that we have all of the kinks ironed out of the procedure. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 09:09:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:09:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <46C9A082.9040402@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:25:09 -0400 > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> CI cables > CI cables are ordinary 50 Ohm coax cables with TNC connectors. If you > rip off the bajonet shell of the BNC connector you can use cheapernet / > coax Ethernet cables. (TNC and BNC use the same inner part of the > connector. Only the locking shell is different.) You can also use > TNC-to-BNC adapters and BNC cables. Or get a bunch of TNC connectors, a > crimp tool and convert your old cheapernet / coax Ethernet cables to CI > cables... Excellent. I happen to have a TNC crimper, so I'll just pick up come connectors. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 09:21:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:21:26 -0700 Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <46C9858E.2040604@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46C9858E.2040604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46C940F6.30424.4611854C@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2007 at 13:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've got various converter boards here, but I think they're all QIC-02 or > QIC-36 (and SCSI at the other side). I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" QIC > drive that isn't QIC-02, QIC-36, or SCSI at the interface... (having said > that, I've not peered into the IBM RT's drive - it wouldn't surprise me if > they didn't use something weird :-) I should mention that this Adic is old enough that it won't fit a FH 5.25" space. It's in its own case with PSU and special front bezel and is quite a bulky thing. The drive has a small motherboard. One slot has the motor drive PCB; the other has the tape interface logic. A ribbon cable connects the drive to a small board in the rear of the case containing the unit select switches and the interface connectors as well as a bit of "glue" logic. It's quite an affair. Cheers, Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 09:24:11 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:24:11 -0400 Subject: Enigma Simulator for the Macintosh... Message-ID: <46C9A40B.2050300@yahoo.com> I'm hoping that this is on-topic for the list... Enigma Simulator - 1.1 simulator of the Enigma cipher machine with Steckerbrett Enigma Simulator is a program that simulates the use of Enigma ciphering machines that were commonly used by Nazi Germany during World War II. It enciphers text exactly the same as would a real Enigma machine. Now Enigma Simulator also includes the much anticipated Steckerbrett (plugboard). What's new in this version: -Steckerbrett (plugboard) -Universal Binary -Minor Visual Enhancements -'Reset' option added under 'Edit' menu (or use Command-R) -File Size Decrease (0.25MB off download and 1.2MB off Application file) -Minor spelling corrections http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/32862 This software is for the Mac only. I suppose there must be a PC version out there as well... Enjoy! Al Phila, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 09:57:51 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:57:51 -0400 Subject: Logic trainer finds Message-ID: A double-header hamfest weekend yielded a couple of vintage digital logic trainer items. The first is one of those little wood boxes DEC Logic labs, but who cares about that. The more interesting thing is a book for the CDC logic trainer. From the pictures and writeups in the manual, this box has no logic of its own, but is made to accept a small number (20) of logic cards from a 1604. It mentions that it can be lightly modified to take 3000 series cards as well. Can Billy or Chuck add any comments? I have never seen or even heard of this box before. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 10:16:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:16:12 +0200 Subject: Logic trainer finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/20/07, William Donzelli wrote: > A double-header hamfest weekend yielded a couple of vintage digital > logic trainer items. The first is one of those little wood boxes DEC > Logic labs, but who cares about that. _I_ care about it... I had the manual for one when I was about 12. I learned digital logic on paper from it. I always wanted one, but the books were much easier to find than boxes. Every once in a while, I entertain making one of my own, but haven't ever come up with an inexpensive and robust plug/connector scheme. > The more interesting thing is a > book for the CDC logic trainer. From the pictures and writeups in the > manual, this box has no logic of its own, but is made to accept a > small number (20) of logic cards from a 1604. It mentions that it can > be lightly modified to take 3000 series cards as well. That _is_ more interesting. I am also curious to learn more. -ethan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 20 10:39:06 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:39:06 -0700 Subject: My Rescue Mission Message-ID: <56e1f19699d8ee067d7c8fa62ab8b884@valleyimplants.com> Ian Primus wrote: >> The Indy looks fine but the O2 only comes >> up now and then. > > Ah hah - I found the "proper" instructions for > cleaning those connectors. O2 != Octane, O2 doesn't use the compression connectors (or XIO), but the more common pin and card-edge types. RE: IRIX: Indigo R3000 will use anything from IRIX 4 up through IRIX 5.3, but SGI dropped the 32-bit R3k and R2k at that time. The O2 will require IRIX 6.3 or 6.5 (6.5 is much easier to find software for, but there are rumors that 6.3 handles some video stuff better). The Indy will run IRIX 6.2 or 6.5 (it will also run 5.3, but there's a chance you can get into the Hardware Specific Version Hell there, with specific versions of IRIX that will run on only one or two machine/processor/graphics combinations. 4.0.5 also has HWSH bits). NB- NB - NB READ THIS::: The Indigo (1), the purple cube, Hollywood, whatever you want to call it) DOES NOT USE PS/2 KEYBOARDS like the other machines you list. It has a mini-DIN 6, but uses the same keyboard as the Onyx and PI 4D/3x series (electrically similar to the keyboard used in the PI 4D/2x, Professional IRIS, POWER series, and Crimson but with a different connector.) A PS/2 keyboard will damage the Indigo, keyboard or both. The mouse daisy-chains onto the keyboard. There are instructions for a PS/2 KBM to Old SGI machine converter, look up megarat and technolust on Google to find a linking page. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 10:53:01 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Rescue Mission In-Reply-To: <56e1f19699d8ee067d7c8fa62ab8b884@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <724790.36568.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > >> The Indy looks fine but the O2 only comes > >> up now and then. > > > > Ah hah - I found the "proper" instructions for > > cleaning those connectors. > > O2 != Octane, O2 doesn't use the compression > connectors (or XIO), but > the more common pin and card-edge types. Ah, I guess I managed to read "Octane" where it says "O2". I could have sworn that's what he said he had. But, obviously, it isn't. :) My bad. -Ian From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 20 11:09:08 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:09:08 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds References: Message-ID: <024d01c7e344$70965490$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/20/07, William Donzelli wrote: >> A double-header hamfest weekend yielded a couple of vintage digital >> logic trainer items. The first is one of those little wood boxes DEC >> Logic labs, but who cares about that. > > _I_ care about it... I had the manual for one when I was about 12. I > learned digital logic on paper from it. I always wanted one, but the > books were much easier to find than boxes. > > Every once in a while, I entertain making one of my own, but haven't > ever come up with an inexpensive and robust plug/connector scheme. I have one of these, and the wires with the plugs are a problem. Mine came to me with only a few of these left, and I haven't been able to replace them. For those who've never seen one (but care), there are eyelets/rivets which are sized appropriately for a mini-banana plug, set into the lab box to form the connection points. Then, a kit of various lengths of wire is provided. The wires end on both ends with something similar to the male pins from a large AMP connector or the like. The thing is, they have an unusual tapered shape, rather than a simple cylinder, which allows them to wedge into the eyelets nicely. The pins appear to be brass, and the eyelets look like they might be gold plated(?). I (and probably others who own one) would love to get some more of the wires, or at least a source for the tapered pins to make new wires. If the tapered pins were available, I suspect brass eyelets could be used for an inexpensive (and almost authentic) plug/connector scheme. (Mini-banana plug hardware seems to be the antithesis of inexpensive!) Vince From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Aug 20 12:35:25 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Homeostat / Electronic Brain 1949 In-Reply-To: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> I have uploaded a pdf of the article The Electronic Brain by W.R. Ashby, M.A., M.D. from the March 1949 issue of Radio Electronics to my web site, along with other updates. Ashby describes the Homeostat and it's potential for building an artificial intelligence computer. vintagecomputer.net/electronic_brain.cfm Bill D From jthecman at netscape.net Mon Aug 20 12:44:06 2007 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:44:06 -0400 Subject: Logic trainer finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C9B168D74EAF9F-54C-AABB@webmail-md06.sysops.aol.com> I too would love to get a DEC trainer and have been looking for one sometime now. John -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:16 am Subject: Re: Logic trainer finds On 8/20/07, William Donzelli wrote: > A double-header hamfest weekend yielded a couple of vintage digital > logic trainer items. The first is one of those little wood boxes DEC > Logic labs, but who cares about that. _I_ care about it... I had the manual for one when I was about 12. I learned digital logic on paper from it. I always wanted one, but the books were much easier to find than boxes. Every once in a while, I entertain making one of my own, but haven't ever come up with an inexpensive and robust plug/connector scheme. > The more interesting thing is a > book for the CDC logic trainer. From the pictures and writeups in the > manual, this box has no logic of its own, but is made to accept a > small number (20) of logic cards from a 1604. It mentions that it can > be lightly modified to take 3000 series cards as well. That _is_ more interesting. I am also curious to learn more. -ethan ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Aug 20 12:39:50 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:39:50 -0500 Subject: DigiBarn Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070820123256.0b9afe30@localhost> Article about the DigiBarn, "BOULDER CREEK, Calif.--Can you imagine a computer history museum that has to be packed up and put away each winter and then unpacked each summer, and which has three potbellied pigs as its mascot? I can, because I've just visited the DigiBarn, a wonderful trip down silicon memory lane that's nestled in a 90-year-old barn, close to a 19th-century farmhouse deep in the Santa Cruz mountains, about 90 minutes south of San Francisco. The DigiBarn, which is the pride and joy of NASA contractor Bruce Damer and his partner in curation, Alan Lundell, ..." http://news.com.com/A+trip+down+computer+memory+lane/2100-1042_3-6203311.html?tag=st.prev It goes on to describe some of the old mechanical calculators (the Curta!) and Apple stuff in the collection, the Altair, the PET, etc. One photo looks like an RK05 pack, although the schmuck is holding it backwards. Click the photo to see the photo gallery. The photos are very arty but not identified worth a darn. -T ----- 861. When I get a little money, I buy books. When I get a little more, I buy food. --Erasmus --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 12:57:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:57:45 -0700 Subject: Homeostat / Electronic Brain 1949 In-Reply-To: <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> References: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <46C973A9.8914.46D79601@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2007 at 13:35, B Degnan wrote: > I have uploaded a pdf of the article The Electronic Brain by W.R. Ashby, > M.A., M.D. from the March 1949 issue of Radio Electronics to my web site, > along with other updates. Ashby describes the Homeostat and it's > potential for building an artificial intelligence computer. > > vintagecomputer.net/electronic_brain.cfm Thanks for a great article! I enjoyed the final section where the author postulates how an artificial brain made from these devices would come to direct our social order. What this brings to mind is the work at MIT in the 50's on the Perceptron. Great things were forecast for the technology at the time also. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 13:11:10 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:11:10 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > IBM PS/2 Model 9595 chassis -- an 8595 chassis won't do > Syskonnect Microchannel FDDI cards > Any turbochannel cards (PMAZC, PMAD, PMAG-C -D -E -F, etc) > DEC Star coupler > CI cables > CI for any bus > BA441 chassis (I need four) > BA431 chassis > MS690 Memory > DEFQA > Cab kit for DEMFA > MS02-CA Memory > DEFTA > RA73 (did they make an RA74?) > ChipChat sound card > Roland CM-500 > CIPCA I have a sizeable pile of TurboChannel cards here, including a few DEFTAs. I also have a pair of DEFQAs, but you'll need to work pretty hard to talk me out of one of those. ;) If you make it down for Labor Day you can take them back up with you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From rcini at optonline.net Mon Aug 20 14:45:54 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:45:54 -0400 Subject: Searching for Ampro LittleBoard 186 diskette In-Reply-To: <720FF718280641479EBAE704A1B349780E2E89@mailbag.Corporate.Office.Ampro.com> Message-ID: All: I just received an Ampro LittleBoard/186. The manual I received with it makes note of the importance of the LittleBoard/186 PC-DOS Support Software Diskette (#A74012), which I do not have. It seems that there are some important programs on that disk which enhance compatibility with PC software and DOS 2.1x and 3.x. Does anyone have a copy of this disk that they can image for me? I will create a resources page for the LB, too. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 14:59:05 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive Message-ID: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I was searching on eBay for ESDI stuff, and came across an ESDI MO drive. Now, this was listed by one of those listers with eight pages of terms and conditions, and one line of a really bad description. It is listed as ESDI in the title, and in the auction, but near the bottom, it's listed as SCSI. I really, really want this drive, and I want it ESDI. But I didn't want to buy this and have it be yet another old SCSI MO drive. So, I checked with the seller - they have a website complete with live chat. I won't post the chat transcript since it's pretty long, but basically the guy first tried to evade with "We don't offer technical help" and stuff to that effect. I was not aware that "Is it SCSI or ESDI" was such a complicated question. But, he eventually decided that it was SCSI - I believe he called the stock room. So, did they even make this drive in ESDI? -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 15:04:47 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <807726.27341.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > So, did they even make this drive in ESDI? Whoops, forgot to include the model of drive... Sony SMO-D501-21 -Ian From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 20 14:22:09 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:22:09 -0500 Subject: radio shack science fair manual In-Reply-To: <200708200329.l7K3STD6009265@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708200329.l7K3STD6009265@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Don and Steven, sorry I missed the original on this. At 22:29 -0500 8/19/07, Steven wrote (in reply to Don): >Don, > >The manual doesn't lend itself as being easy to copy and shipping would be >high. There is a kit WITH the manual on Ebay right now; > >http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-130-IN-ONE-ELETRONIC-PROJECT-LAB-w-BOX-N-R_W0QQitemZ270155304132QQihZ017QQcategoryZ11737QQcmdZViewItem > >... > > > > ... was wondering if you found a manual >for the 130 in one kit yet? I just took mine out of the closet to show my >son and the manual is missing. >> >> Any help would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> > > Don > I note also that new kits that look *very* similar are available from: http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=PL130 It's possible you could order a manual from them (with a new kit if no other way). No connection, and no experience with the company(ies) involved. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 15:12:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:12:32 -0400 Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C9F5B0.4010602@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So, did they even make this drive in ESDI? Sony made an ESDI MO drive. I've held it in my own hands. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 15:28:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:28:20 -0700 Subject: Homeostat / Electronic Brain 1949 In-Reply-To: <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> References: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2007 at 13:35, B Degnan wrote: > I have uploaded a pdf of the article The Electronic Brain by W.R. Ashby, > M.A., M.D. from the March 1949 issue of Radio Electronics to my web site, > along with other updates. Ashby describes the Homeostat and it's > potential for building an artificial intelligence computer. For those who would enjoy reading some of the other work of W. Ross Ashby (a little-mentioned, but highly influential to early computing psychiatrist), there's a PDF of his 1956 text "An Introduction to Cybernetics" online: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html Cheers, Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 15:36:25 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:36:25 -0700 Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <807726.27341.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <807726.27341.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708201336i3241132dybef508cf32f4b894@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > > So, did they even make this drive in ESDI? > > Whoops, forgot to include the model of drive... > > Sony SMO-D501-21 > > -Ian > Can you get still get media for those drives? From george at rachors.com Mon Aug 20 15:49:51 2007 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy Model 4 question In-Reply-To: <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070820134801.H25695@racsys.rachors.com> Just inherited a Model 4 with twin floppies. The CRT seems to powerup but no text on screen.. The lower drive light comes on but no other activity. Is there a common failure mode for these critters? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 20 15:58:18 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:58:18 -0400 Subject: Tandy Model 4 question In-Reply-To: <20070820134801.H25695@racsys.rachors.com> References: <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070820165559.04bddfe0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that George L. Rachor Jr. may have mentioned these words: >Just inherited a Model 4 with twin floppies. > >The CRT seems to powerup but no text on screen.. > >The lower drive light comes on but no other activity. > >Is there a common failure mode for these critters? The foremost 'failure mode' is no boot floppy! ;-) Try holding the break key and press the reset button (the inset red button near the numeric keypad) and see if it comes up to the Model III cassette basic. You should see a memory prompt, like "? MEM Size" or somesuch -- warning: It's been almost 20 years since I've diddled with a Mod4, so the neurons don't fire quite as well as they used to... ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Aug 20 16:32:18 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:32:18 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6839@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> William Donzelli wrote: A double-header hamfest weekend yielded a couple of vintage digital logic trainer items. The first is one of those little wood boxes DEC Logic labs, but who cares about that. The more interesting thing is a book for the CDC logic trainer. From the pictures and writeups in the manual, this box has no logic of its own, but is made to accept a small number (20) of logic cards from a 1604. It mentions that it can be lightly modified to take 3000 series cards as well. Can Billy or Chuck add any comments? I have never seen or even heard of this box before. -- Will --------------------------------- The logic trainer was developed by Control Data Institute. They also did a workbook with a series of simple experiments. It was a part of their program to take high school graduates to computer technicians in 12 months. Lots of government funding for the 12 month program, so the classes were usually full. I believe there a couple of list members who took that class. The 1604 and 3000 cards both use +/- 20 volts, though on different pins. 1604 has power on pins 13,14 15; 3000 has power on pins 6, 7 and 8. So the mod was moving power pins. The signal levels could be mixed without level converters, though you stressed the 3000 inputs doing it. I only know of piece of equipment that actually mixed the logic families on the same chassis: The Digigraphics system. The power wires are always solid red, blue with black for ground. I may still have some of the documentation for it, but very uncertain. It's been a few years. However, Al has posted some of the CDI training manuals used with it. One is at CDC/modules/60238500_3000pcbs_Dec68.pdf. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Aug 20 16:37:49 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:37:49 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: I have one of these, and the wires with the plugs are a problem. Mine came to me with only a few of these left, and I haven't been able to replace them. For those who've never seen one (but care), there are eyelets/rivets which are sized appropriately for a mini-banana plug, set into the lab box to form the connection points. Then, a kit of various lengths of wire is provided. The wires end on both ends with something similar to the male pins from a large AMP connector or the like. The thing is, they have an unusual tapered shape, rather than a simple cylinder, which allows them to wedge into the eyelets nicely. The pins appear to be brass, and the eyelets look like they might be gold plated(?). I (and probably others who own one) would love to get some more of the wires, or at least a source for the tapered pins to make new wires. If the tapered pins were available, I suspect brass eyelets could be used for an inexpensive (and almost authentic) plug/connector scheme. (Mini-banana plug hardware seems to be the antithesis of inexpensive!) Vince -------------- I assume you are talking about the DEC logic trainer? If you talking of the CDC trainer, I have a couple of old chasses loaded with wires and buggies that I use for repair. Even have some NOS wires and buggies. Billy From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 20 16:50:44 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:50:44 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <02af01c7e374$296f25d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Billy Pettit" > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > I (and probably others who own one) would love to get some more of the > > wires, or at least a source for the tapered pins to make new wires. > > I assume you are talking about the DEC logic trainer? If you talking of > the > CDC trainer, I have a couple of old chasses loaded with wires and buggies > that I use for repair. Even have some NOS wires and buggies. Yes, I meant the DEC trainers that Ethan referred to. Vince From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Aug 20 15:51:18 2007 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vector 4 w/ CP/M-86 available In-Reply-To: <025601c7e37b$56b36b30$4001a8c0@TERI> Message-ID: Hi, Teri. I've taken the liberty of cc'ing a list of computer collectors on your offer. I'm sure somebody will be interesting in the machine. Cheers, Doug On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Teri wrote: > Hello, > > I have a Vector CP/M-86, complete with all manuals...the User's Manuals, Vector 4, Programmer's Guide, Programmer's Manuals, Memorite Manual, Basic and ExecuPlan 2, I also have the compatable dot matrix printer, an Anadex, and the manual, as well as floppy disks. The User's Manual is copywrited 1983. Please email me either way as I will take it to computer recycling if no one wants it. Thank you. > > Teri Roberts > 707-292-8180 From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Aug 20 17:11:32 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:11:32 -0700 Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Nice article in today's Silicon Valley News: http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_6656581?nclick_check=1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 16:37:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:37:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQ T2 faults In-Reply-To: <46C8BF22.6090705@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 19, 7 11:07:30 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > What I would do is first check that the hard disk is going ready -- that > > is with a logic probe on the control connector with the drive cabled up > > to the PERQ. > > Presumably I can do that on the bench - I think it's just a case of applying You can, yes. Althought personally, I'd do it in the PERQ (a 50 way cabel with an edge connector on one end and a 2-row header socket on the other is very useful for cabling the DIB to the EIO in this sort of situation ;-)). Reason being that if the PERQ isn't asserting drive select or something, you'll spot that oo. > power and twiddling the appropriate drive select line so that the drive > enables the output control signals... (I'll check via bitsavers - I think the > drive selects are active-low) YEs, just about all the signals on the ST412 control connector (and for that matter a floppy drive connector) are active low. The drive outputs may well be (should be!) open-collector signals, requring an external pull-up resisotr. A couple more things. The 3 wire power connector on the DIB is +5V, Ground, -5V. Not +12V anywhere. And the DIB breaks the rules by using totem-pole drivers to drive the disk signals. if the power cable falls off, these darn things can assert the appropraite signals and corrupt the disk. Don't ask how I found that out! > Worst-case if the drive's hosed, we've got various install disks - just a > question of whether there's a formatter (low or high level) in there somewhere! The formatter wasn't included with any normal PERQ OS distribution. But you should have the engieer's disk somewhere that includes it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 16:41:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:41:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT-ish : HPCC Conference in October Message-ID: This is somewhat off-topic as it's not a totally classic-computer event, but there should be at least one old-ish (1970's) piece of computing machinery there. There is an HPCC (Handheld and Portable Computer Club) Conference in London (Imperial College) on 13th/14th October this year. Details are on the HPCC website (http://www.hpcc.org), there's an obvious link from the homepage. Attendance is free, and you don't have to be a member of HPCC. But you do have to register befroehand, we need to know how many are coming, and indeed who. Detials of how to do that are on the website too, don't e-mail me, OK :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:00:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:00:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <200708192324.11726.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 19, 7 11:24:11 pm Message-ID: > I'm a bit confused by all those QIC designations, since they sometimes s= > eem=20 > to refer to completely different things... The vearious QIC standards define certain aspects of QIC (Quarter Inch Cartridge) tapes. Some of them, like QIC11 and QIC24 define the way data is to be recorded on the tape, the track positions, and so on. Others, like QIC02 and QIC36 describre the interfaces on the tape drives themselves.There are basically 2 classes of interface, the 'raw' interface (for example QIC36), where you essentially have the bitstream to/from the hard on the interface connector (a bit like a floppy drive interface in conceopt) and 'formatted' interfaces, like QIC02 where you send 8-bit bytes to the drive, it buffers them, and writes blocks to the tape (a bit like SCSI in concept). > > Got one drive here that has a 50-pin connector, and it came along with a= > n=20 > 8-bit ISA card -- some sort of a proprietary interface, and I have no id= I would guess thati's QIC36, but it could be QIC02. If there's a lot of logic on the ISA card, including RAM, it's likely to be a raw interface. If the ISA card is little more than an address decoder and latches/buffers, then it's a foramtteed interface, and there'll be more logic in the drive iteslf. There were formatter boards that, for example, connected to a 'raw' drive on one side (say QIC 36) and provided a fromatted host interface on the other (like QIC02). The Archive Sidewinder on my PERQ is like that -- the thing is the size of an 8" floppy drive, the drive itself mounts at the front of the frame and has a QIC36 interface. It links to a pair of stached PCBs bolted ot the frame behind the drive, there's a QIC02 host interface on the back. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:24:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:24:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandy Model 4 question In-Reply-To: <20070820134801.H25695@racsys.rachors.com> from "George L. Rachor Jr." at Aug 20, 7 01:49:51 pm Message-ID: > > Just inherited a Model 4 with twin floppies. > > The CRT seems to powerup but no text on screen.. > > The lower drive light comes on but no other activity. That, IIRC, is correct behaviour if you don't have a boot disk. Try turning it on (or pressing 'Reset' -- the orange button in the top right cornder of the keyboard) while holding down the 'BREAK' key. You should geht a CASS? prompt. Hit 'ENTER' (Tandy's name for Return), then you'll get a MEMORY SIZE? Prompt. 'ENTER' again, and you'll be in ROM BASIC. This can save/load to cassette, but not disk. You should be able to find a TRS-DOS 6.x (or LSODS 6.x) boot disk image on the web somwehre. > > Is there a common failure mode for these critters? There are seceral (most common being the infernal cables between the CPU board and disk controller and RS232 interace on early machines). But let's make sure it's failed first :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:04:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:04:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <200708192333.46749.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 19, 7 11:33:46 pm Message-ID: > Not in my experience, but it seems that a fair number of drives are. I'= > ve=20 > had bad luck with some brands, and try to stay away from them, includin= > g=20 > one Alps that let the magic smoke out on first powerup, and assorted Mit= > sumi=20 > and some others. If I can, I prefer Sony, they seem a bit more reliabl= > e, =20 > though there are no doubt some others. Got a whole box of drives around = I've had a lot of success with Teac drives. Of course I also like the full-height Sony's (600 rpm spindles), but that's becuase I'm an HP enthusiast... The less said about 'generic' drives the better. I've had some come from the factory that were _wildly_ out of elignment (I don't mean on the edge when you stick a CE disk in, I mean way out!). Oh they probably read their own disk fine, but I wouldn't think you could interchange disks with anohter drive. I learnt the hard way to stick an alignment disk in every drive I bought and see just how good it is... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:11:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <028e01c7e314$fe25ce10$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> from "Ade Vickers" at Aug 20, 7 11:29:29 am Message-ID: > I must admit, I don't have a 3.5" head cleaner; and dust ingress could be a If by that you're refering to one of those cleaning disks, my only comment is 'Good!'.... IMHO the only way to clean the heads is to remove the cover from the drive and to clean them carefully with a cotton bud soaked in propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:14:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C983E2.5000907@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 20, 7 01:06:58 pm Message-ID: > > Ade Vickers wrote: > > I must admit, I don't have a 3.5" head cleaner > > I've found anything with alcohol in it will work in an emergency - not as good Beer??? I am _not_ letting you loose near any of my drives... > > Having said about the 5.25" disks - I've realised that not all is quite > > sweetness & light.... I have lots of DSDD *drives* here, with various > > machines, but almost no DSDD *disks* - most of the disks are DSHD.... and > > they generally simply will not format on a DD drive.... As has been mentioned here may times, the coercivity of the media is different between the DD and HD disks. > > I could never find a 96tpi disk when I needed one :( I quick plea on the > local freecycle list turned up around 100 though, which should keep me going > for a while (used, so I expect there are some duds in there) I was given 3 carrier bags of bulk-erased RX50 disks. Although they were intended as 80 cylinder single-sided, I've never had one that won't format without errors on both sidss... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:17:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:17:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd QIC-like tape In-Reply-To: <46C9858E.2040604@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 20, 7 01:14:06 pm Message-ID: > I've got various converter boards here, but I think they're all QIC-02 or > QIC-36 (and SCSI at the other side). I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" QIC > drive that isn't QIC-02, QIC-36, or SCSI at the interface... (having said Tandberg used an interface that was physically on a 34 pin connector, IIRC a harder plug, not a card edge. It wa a raw interface, with an asynchronous serial link for commands and status. I _think_ it was called QIC44. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:31:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:31:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Logic trainer finds In-Reply-To: <02af01c7e374$296f25d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> from "Vincent Slyngstad" at Aug 20, 7 02:50:44 pm Message-ID: > > From: "Billy Pettit" > > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > > I (and probably others who own one) would love to get some more of the > > > wires, or at least a source for the tapered pins to make new wires. > > > > I assume you are talking about the DEC logic trainer? If you talking of > > the > > CDC trainer, I have a couple of old chasses loaded with wires and buggies > > that I use for repair. Even have some NOS wires and buggies. > > Yes, I meant the DEC trainers that Ethan referred to. How big (approximately) are these tapered pins, length, diamter at the 'big end', diameter at the 'small end'. Are they just plain tapered pins (i.e. no spring contacts on the sides or anything). I am wondering how hard it would be to make some from brass rod.... -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 20 17:43:58 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Billy Pettit wrote: > Nice article in today's Silicon Valley News: > > http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_6656581?nclick_check=1 I ought to seriously consider renting a space there to cut down my stock of uncatalogable stuff. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 20 18:25:25 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:25:25 -0400 Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46CA22E5.7040806@mdrconsult.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Billy Pettit wrote: > > >>Nice article in today's Silicon Valley News: >> >>http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_6656581?nclick_check=1 > > > I ought to seriously consider renting a space there to cut down my stock > of uncatalogable stuff. Is it just me that gets a login page? Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 20 18:29:57 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... In-Reply-To: <46CA22E5.7040806@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Aug 20, 2007 07:25:25 PM Message-ID: <200708202329.l7KNTvNs002739@onyx.spiritone.com> > David Griffith wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Billy Pettit wrote: > > > > > >>Nice article in today's Silicon Valley News: > >> > >>http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_6656581?nclick_check=1 > > > > > > I ought to seriously consider renting a space there to cut down my stock > > of uncatalogable stuff. > > Is it just me that gets a login page? > > > Doc > No, I got that to. I have no idea what the article is about, I was hoping someone would mention... Zane From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 20 18:31:11 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:31:11 -0400 Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CA243F.7000808@compsys.to> >Mr Ian Primus wrote: >I was searching on eBay for ESDI stuff, and came >across an ESDI MO drive. Now, this was listed by one >of those listers with eight pages of terms and >conditions, and one line of a really bad description. >It is listed as ESDI in the title, and in the auction, >but near the bottom, it's listed as SCSI. I really, >really want this drive, and I want it ESDI. But I >didn't want to buy this and have it be yet another old >SCSI MO drive. So, I checked with the seller - they >have a website complete with live chat. > >I won't post the chat transcript since it's pretty >long, but basically the guy first tried to evade with >"We don't offer technical help" and stuff to that >effect. I was not aware that "Is it SCSI or ESDI" was >such a complicated question. But, he eventually >decided that it was SCSI - I believe he called the >stock room. > >So, did they even make this drive in ESDI? > Jerome Fine replies: The first SCSI MO drive I ever used was from Sony. The SMO S-501 consisted of two parts (this is from memory and it was over 15 years ago - so it is likely unreliable): (a) A C-501 PCB about the size of a 5 1/4" drive which had a 50 pin SCSI header interface for the host adapter and a 34 pin / 20 pin (2 of these if I remember correctly) header interface for each of the 2 supported drives. This board was called a controller and was completely separate from the drives (b) A D-501 5 1/4" drive which I was told had a MODIFIED ESDI interface and used standard 34 pin / 20 pin edge connectors. Exactly what the word modified meant specifically was never made clear, however, Sony made it VERY clear that the C-501 controller PCB was required to interface the D-501 drive to a SCSI host adapter and any warranty on the D-501 drive seemed to be dependent on using the C-501 controller as an interface. In practice, the C-501 actually handled TWO D-501 drives, so the complete set up was a bit less expensive than later drives for which the 50 pin controller interface was embedded with the drive - when TWO drives were used. Since the customer who ordered the dual MO drive setup used a SCSI host adapter as the interface - and no other interface was available at the time, the question of using the C-501 never arose. It sounds like you are being sold a D-501 drive without the C-501 controller. Eventually, the C-501 / D-501 was discontinued and Sony produced ONLY an integrated SMO S-501 drive. By the way, the capacity of each SMO S-501 drive or the original D-501 was 295 MB using a 512 byte sector size. MOST media were double sided, although that meant physically removing the media, turning the media over and inserting it back into the drive. Which meant that ONLY one side could be used at a time. However, someone in marketing decided that the SMO S-501 had a 590 MB capacity and the drive was advertised and sold on that basis. Sort of like the original 180 KB byte floppy drive and single sided media - which could have additional holes punched and the other side used as well. BUT I never heard of a 180 KB 5 1/4" floppy call a 360 KB drive when used with media that could be removed and turned over, then inserted again to use the other side. Over the past decade, the SMO S-501 drives with the embedded controllers have been available on eBay and sold for less than the shipping cost. After I acquired 3 or 4, as well as sufficient media, I used them as my primary backup on the PDP-11/73 for about 5 years in addition to the interchange media for the Pentium III running RT-11 under E11 using, yep, the same SMO S-501 drive (with an Adaptec AHA-2940AU host adapter). The drives don't receive much use lately since the backup has become 4.7 GB DVD media on the Pentium III, although if I ever need to transfer anything over 10 MB back to the PDP-11/73, I guess that the SMO S-501 would be the drive to be used. Does this answer your question? If you need some media, I can probably make some available. But I would suggest that you pass on the D-501 drive and get the SMO S-501 if you really want to use that type of media. If the vendor is willing to loan you the drive to test it (at his risk) on your ESDI controller, then I guess that might be reasonable if you enjoy the challenge. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 20 18:55:06 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:55:06 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds References: Message-ID: <02f801c7e385$89482270$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Tony Duell" >Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Yes, I meant the DEC trainers that Ethan referred to. > > How big (approximately) are these tapered pins, length, diamter at the > 'big end', diameter at the 'small end'. Are they just plain tapered pins > (i.e. no spring contacts on the sides or anything). > > I am wondering how hard it would be to make some from brass rod.... Unfortunately, I lack the tools to measure that accurately. What I can say, is that the Molex 02-09-2118 male pins fit nicely into the holes but don't "wedge" properly. (The flanges are also too steep to grip well.) That implies to me that their diameter of .093"/2.36mm is about right for the narrow tip. The wider base near the wire crimp measures something like .106" to .113" or so. It's hard to get accurate, as it isn't very uniform, and the jig I am using doesn't hold the pin "straight". It wouldn't surprise me to discover the holes are about .100", but I can't directly measure those at all. But it is approximately .09"-.10"(hole)-.11". The pins are also hollow, so there may be a phenomenon where they compress slightly as you push them in, contributing to the nice "wedged in" feel. Vince From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 20 18:51:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:51:58 +0100 Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... In-Reply-To: <200708202329.l7KNTvNs002739@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200708202329.l7KNTvNs002739@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <46CA291E.2030408@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_6656581?nclick_check=1 >>> >> Is it just me that gets a login page? > > No, I got that to. I have no idea what the article is about, I was hoping > someone would mention... I got the same. So I tried munging the URL, setting nclick_check to 2 rather than 1, and it let me in... go figure. Quick ASCII dump of the article if needed: http://www.patooie.com/temp/sv_article.txt ... no formatting, so you'll need to throw a text editor at it :-) J. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 20 19:19:40 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:19:40 -0700 Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... Message-ID: <46CA2F9C.2080104@bitsavers.org> > "Most of these guys don't want to sell their stuff on eBay," > said Mark Bohrer, an engineer who's worked at several area tech companies. > "They think eBay's a rip-off." sure.. majority of stuff there wouldn't move on eBay. The stuff that will is over there. 1/3 of the stalls are generic flea-market stuff. This flea, like all the others, has been castrated by eBay. It's mostly just a social event now. > But for most who have been coming to Cupertino for years, > it's unimaginable that the flea market could disappear. The REAL old-timers still call it Foothill, which is in Los Altos Hills, not Cupertino. It has only been on the DeAnza campus for a couple of years. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 19:24:53 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <46CA243F.7000808@compsys.to> Message-ID: <709832.95647.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > (b) A D-501 5 1/4" drive which I was told had a > MODIFIED > ESDI interface and used standard 34 pin / 20 pin > edge > connectors. Exactly what the word modified meant > specifically > was never made clear, Hmm. Modified... Huh. Now I really wonder what would happen if I connected one to a Dilog ESDI controller. > In practice, the C-501 actually handled TWO D-501 > drives, so > the complete set up was a bit less expensive than > later > drives for which the 50 pin controller interface was > embedded > with the drive - when TWO drives were used. That would make sense that an ESDI controller could handle two of the drives and convert them to SCSI. > Eventually, the C-501 / D-501 was discontinued and > Sony > produced ONLY an integrated SMO S-501 drive. OK - this one is a SMO-D501, so it's the EDSI model then. (Provided they read the part number right) > > Over the past decade, the SMO S-501 drives with the > embedded > controllers have been available on eBay and sold for > less > than the shipping cost. Yeah, the one I was looking at is on eBay for like $5 plus another $11 to ship it. I just really don't want to spend $16 if what I'm getting won't be of any use. > Does this answer your question? If you need some > media, > I can probably make some available. But I would > suggest > that you pass on the D-501 drive and get the SMO > S-501 > if you really want to use that type of media. Well, I'm not too concerned about the type of media - I do like MO, however. It seems really convenient, I'm mainly looking for an interchange format (not to mention space expansion for the Vax), since I know SCSI MO drives are easy to get (I have some somewhere). The main draw of this drive was that it was ESDI. Hmm, is it worth $16 as a gamble... Two gambles, actually - is it really ESDI, and will it work if it is? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 19:38:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:38:11 -0700 Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... In-Reply-To: <46CA2F9C.2080104@bitsavers.org> References: <46CA2F9C.2080104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46C9D183.8307.48462E8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2007 at 17:19, Al Kossow wrote: > The REAL old-timers still call it Foothill, > which is in Los Altos Hills, not Cupertino. > It has only been on the DeAnza campus for a > couple of years. Sorry to hear about it. I used to enjoy the Foothill College meet; you could never tell what you'd find. I remember trying to squeeze two 19" Daisy Systems monitors into the back seat of a friend's Buick. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 20 19:46:10 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For Bay Area Visitors... In-Reply-To: <46CA22E5.7040806@mdrconsult.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B683C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46CA22E5.7040806@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Doc Shipley wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Billy Pettit wrote: > > > > > >>Nice article in today's Silicon Valley News: > >> > >>http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_6656581?nclick_check=1 > > > > I ought to seriously consider renting a space there to cut down my stock > > of uncatalogable stuff. > > Is it just me that gets a login page? Ah, I lopped off everything after the question mark, then forgot to mention that part. It's about the De Anza flea market. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 20 19:42:00 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:42:00 -0300 Subject: Burroughs parts? Message-ID: <01C7E375.11CA5520@MSE_D03> >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:53:02 -0400 >From: "Roy J. Tellason" >Subject: Burroughs parts? >I have some of the following parts, maybe you guys can help me ID this stuff? >-- Several tubes of what appear to be resistor packs, branded "Beckman" and >bearing the part number 1899-258-0, not found under Beckman anywhere Shouldn't be too hard to figure out with an ohmmeter... ;-) >--3 tubes of white ceramic-cased w/gold chips marked 1449-1112, I *think* >this is some kind of DRAM? 2102 / TMS4033 1Kx1 SRAM mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 20 19:57:11 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:57:11 -0300 Subject: Logic trainer finds Message-ID: <01C7E375.140502E0@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message(s): Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:09:08 -0700 From: "Vincent Slyngstad" Subject: Re: Logic trainer finds From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/20/07, William Donzelli wrote: >> A double-header hamfest weekend yielded a couple of vintage digital >> logic trainer items. The first is one of those little wood boxes DEC >> Logic labs, but who cares about that. > > _I_ care about it... I had the manual for one when I was about 12. I > learned digital logic on paper from it. I always wanted one, but the > books were much easier to find than boxes. > > Every once in a while, I entertain making one of my own, but haven't > ever come up with an inexpensive and robust plug/connector scheme. I have one of these, and the wires with the plugs are a problem. Mine came to me with only a few of these left, and I haven't been able to replace them. For those who've never seen one (but care), there are eyelets/rivets which are sized appropriately for a mini-banana plug, set into the lab box to form the connection points. Then, a kit of various lengths of wire is provided. The wires end on both ends with something similar to the male pins from a large AMP connector or the like. The thing is, they have an unusual tapered shape, rather than a simple cylinder, which allows them to wedge into the eyelets nicely. The pins appear to be brass, and the eyelets look like they might be gold plated(?). I (and probably others who own one) would love to get some more of the wires, or at least a source for the tapered pins to make new wires. If the tapered pins were available, I suspect brass eyelets could be used for an inexpensive (and almost authentic) plug/connector scheme. (Mini-banana plug hardware seems to be the antithesis of inexpensive!) Vince -----------Reply: Burroughs used this sort of thing in some old patchboards; I wonder if by chance they're the same size? The diameter of the hole is a tight 1/16" drill bit FWIW; the tapered pins are tinned though, not brass. mike From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 20 20:58:03 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:58:03 -0700 Subject: Daisy (was For Bay Area Visitors...) Message-ID: <46CA46AB.50504@bitsavers.org> > I remember trying to squeeze > two 19" Daisy Systems monitors into the back seat of a friend's > Buick. Don't happen to have any Daisy software distributions, do you? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Aug 20 21:21:55 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:21:55 -0400 Subject: Wanted: cromemco D+7A Message-ID: Subject pretty much says it all. I have a number of other S-100 cards to trade or cash if preferred. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/961 - Release Date: 8/19/2007 7:27 AM From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Aug 20 21:26:19 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:26:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> At 03:56 AM 8/20/2007, Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:25:09 -0400 >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > CI cables >CI cables are ordinary 50 Ohm coax cables with TNC connectors. CI cables are 50 Ohm coax cables with "N" connectors. The outer shell is quite a bit larger than a BNC or TNC. >If you rip off the bajonet shell of the BNC connector you can use >cheapernet / >coax Ethernet cables. (TNC and BNC use the same inner part of the >connector. Only the locking shell is different.) But this may be correct - the inner portion of a BNC/TNC connector without the locking ring may just fit; they're all constant impedance 50 ohm connectors. >You can also use >TNC-to-BNC adapters and BNC cables. Or get a bunch of TNC connectors, a >crimp tool and convert your old cheapernet / coax Ethernet cables to CI >cables... Modulo "N" to BNC adapters, yes. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 21:35:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:01 -0700 Subject: Daisy (was For Bay Area Visitors...) In-Reply-To: <46CA46AB.50504@bitsavers.org> References: <46CA46AB.50504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46C9ECE5.5362.48B12493@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2007 at 18:58, Al Kossow wrote: > > I remember trying to squeeze > > two 19" Daisy Systems monitors into the back seat of a friend's > > Buick. > > Don't happen to have any Daisy software distributions, do you? No, sorry--and traded the montiors to Dave McGlone quite a few years ago... Talk about battleship construction! Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 20 21:50:47 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:50:47 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds References: <01C7E375.140502E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <032301c7e39e$144829c0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "M H Stein": > Burroughs used this sort of thing in some old patchboards; I wonder if > by chance they're the same size? The diameter of the hole is a tight 1/16" > drill bit FWIW; the tapered pins are tinned though, not brass. My DEC trainer fits a 3/32" bit in the holes pretty well. 1/16" just floats around in there. Vince. From earl at baugh.org Mon Aug 20 22:14:49 2007 From: earl at baugh.org (earl at baugh.org) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:14:49 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/110 memory issue Message-ID: <8D1A5B08-3522-488B-A311-55C9AEFF57F0@baugh.org> Howdy, I finally got down to FL for long planned rescue of some Sun VME stuff... (BTW, I'll be posting some VME boards available in the next day or so, FYI...) and in the rescue I got a Sun 3/110 CPU board (Hurrah!... what I've been looking for a long time ) and even a 4/110 CPU board which I think I'll build out too. However, I've got a memory issue with the 3/110... I get the following output on the console with diag enabled: PROM Checksum Test DVMA Reg Test Context Reg Test Segment Map Wr/Rd Test Segment Map Address Test Page Map Test Memory Path Data Test Err 2: Addr 0x00000400, Exp 0x00000001, Obs 0x00010001, Xor 0x00010000 Can anybody tell me how to determine what bank this is on the 3/110 board, so I can replace the chip? They all look socketed and I've got a drawer full of RAM that I can swap out, if I can figure out the chip... BTW, when I jumper J3100 it cycles in both diag and normal, even with another memory board in... does anybody know if the 3/110 would boot with it's on-board memory disabled? Thanks. (cross posted to rescue list as well) Earl From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 22:17:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:17:18 -0700 Subject: Stumbled upon: Douglas Electronics Message-ID: <46C9F6CE.31377.48D7D7DE@cclist.sydex.com> At http://www.douglas.com. In San Leandro. I note that they claim to offer S-100 and DEC prototype PCBs. Are they still in business--or is this just an incredibly stale web site? Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 22:19:36 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:19:36 -0500 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60708202019y7755165bpf5c60d29b109a05c@mail.gmail.com> I have most of the DEC items. Which ones do you still need? Paul On 8/19/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > IBM PS/2 Model 9595 chassis -- an 8595 chassis won't do > Syskonnect Microchannel FDDI cards > Any turbochannel cards (PMAZC, PMAD, PMAG-C -D -E -F, etc) > DEC Star coupler > CI cables > CI for any bus > BA441 chassis (I need four) > BA431 chassis > MS690 Memory > DEFQA > Cab kit for DEMFA > MS02-CA Memory > DEFTA > RA73 (did they make an RA74?) > ChipChat sound card > Roland CM-500 > CIPCA > > In addition, I will need two racks soon. > > Thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Aug 20 22:25:09 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:25:09 -0400 Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <46CA243F.7000808@compsys.to> References: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46CA243F.7000808@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46CA5B15.8000100@hawkmountain.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> I was searching on eBay for ESDI stuff, and came >> across an ESDI MO drive. Now, this was listed by one >> ... >> So, did they even make this drive in ESDI? >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > The first SCSI MO drive I ever used was from Sony. > > The SMO S-501 consisted of two parts (this is from > memory and it was over 15 years ago - so it is likely > unreliable): > > (a) A C-501 PCB about the size of a 5 1/4" drive which > had a 50 pin SCSI header interface for the host adapter > and a 34 pin / 20 pin (2 of these if I remember correctly) > header interface for each of the 2 supported drives. This > board was called a controller and was completely separate > from the drives > > (b) A D-501 5 1/4" drive which I was told had a MODIFIED > ESDI interface and used standard 34 pin / 20 pin edge > connectors. Exactly what the word modified meant specifically > was never made clear, however, Sony made it VERY clear that > the C-501 controller PCB was required to interface the D-501 > drive to a SCSI host adapter and any warranty on the D-501 > drive seemed to be dependent on using the C-501 controller > as an interface. > > ... > > Jerome Fine Heh.... someone really knows there old Sony MO... Funny enough... I ran one of these combos.... I aquired a drive w/o controller... (cheap thankfully)... later on I aquired a complete enclosure/controller/drive. Turns out the drive on the complete one was bad... (Wow... I had a spare ! (completely accidentally of course... never would have gotten the bare drive in the frist place if I'd have known :-) ). Well, needless to say, even later I aquired another enclosure that had two of those drives in it (and interestingly two bridge controllers). at least one part was bad in there. Suffice to say I think I have a whole single drive unit with bridge and a second drive bare... and I think 2 working bridge controllers here. (now the question of precisely where here... well, that's more complicated :-) ). I used 2 discs to backup some stuff too.... (abt 10 yrs ago). When I moved to the house I'm in now, one of those discs I discovered unreadable... but the other was fine. This year I discovered the 2nd disc now unreadable.... I even tried a SCSI (I have an SMO-E501) drive... no go. I also have a number of discs for these. After my experience, I don't trust them anymore. I think they are environmentally sensitive... and I'm thinking that they probably got too warm or something ? dunno... If anyone is interested... make offers on parts, whole units, discs, etc... I have no plans to use them at this point. I did like the unit when I had it up and running.... -- Curt From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 23:08:32 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:08:32 -0500 Subject: Fwd: HP2627A, HP82901M In-Reply-To: <624966d60708140943sf063e5fs8931a57ee4256ac9@mail.gmail.com> References: <624966d60708140943sf063e5fs8931a57ee4256ac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60708202108y75462bf8r86195bf7ad9568f4@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul Anderson Date: Aug 14, 2007 11:43 AM Subject: HP2627A, HP82901M To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> I have recently picked up 2 HP2627A terminals(1985), both missing top covers, one missing the 2 boards across the back, and a HP82901M flezible disc drive(1982). If anyone is interested,please contact me off list. Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Aug 21 03:30:30 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:30:30 -0300 Subject: Logic trainer finds References: <02f801c7e385$89482270$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <03c901c7e3cd$dc379720$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Unfortunately, I lack the tools to measure that accurately. What I Maybe some photos? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 21 03:32:42 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stumbled upon: Douglas Electronics In-Reply-To: <46C9F6CE.31377.48D7D7DE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46C9F6CE.31377.48D7D7DE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At http://www.douglas.com. In San Leandro. I note that they claim to > offer S-100 and DEC prototype PCBs. Are they still in business--or > is this just an incredibly stale web site? If they are still doing card cage guides, perhaps they could help Grant Stockley with his Altair kits (all of which lack card guides). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 21 03:41:03 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:41:03 +0200 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <20070821104103.5ae873f3@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:26:19 -0400 Rick Murphy wrote: > CI cables are 50 Ohm coax cables with "N" connectors. The outer shell > is quite a bit larger than a BNC or TNC. I just went to the machine room and checked. CI is definately TNC. The inner part of TNC and BNC are identical. The inner part of [BT]NC and N are _similar_, but not identical. The thread inside of the shell of TNC is noticeable smaler then the thread inside of a N shell. (I have N connectors on one of my osciloscopes and some Thick Ethernet gear. So I can do a 1-to-1 comparision.) Maybe you are confused by the outer diameter of the shell? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 21 05:55:43 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:55:43 -0500 Subject: SOL Terminal Computer (Chassis) Message-ID: <200708210959.l7L9xcFj022462@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, Had a partially built "SOL Terminal Computer" dropped off here yesterday, all the important stuff seems to be here except for some parts of the chassis. Fortunately I did get two very full binders of documentation which has all the parts and assemblies listed. According to the docs, the chassis consists of: 1. Main chassis 2. EXpansion Chassis 3. Power supply subchassis 4. Fan closure plate [X] 5. Power supply subchassis bracket [?] 6. Keyboard bracket [?] 7. Left side piece, Walnut [X] 8. Left side piece, Masonite [X] 9. Right side piece, Walnut [X] 10. Right side piece, Masonite [X] 11. Keyboard cover 12. Top cover 13. Finger wall label [X] 14. Printed trim plate, Paper [X] 15. Plexiglass strip [X] 16. Serial number label [X] 17. Connector identification label [X] [X] marks parts that I definately have [?] marks parts that I may have (There's a bag of assorted bits - I havn't gone through it yet). As you can see, the big things that I am missing are the Main, Expansion and Power supply chassis, and the covers. It'd be great if someone responded with "I've got an empty SOL chassis" ... (anyone got one?) - but I'm never that lucky, so I'm expecting that I'm going to have to fabricate the missing chassis parts. Is there anyone on the list with a SOL who would be willing to take some defailed photos and measurements to assist me ? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 05:11:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a couple of DEC parts Message-ID: <735113.96951.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm looking for a couple of parts to get some Vaxen running. (A MicroVax II and a Vax 11/750) Qbus ethernet Qbus DSSI controller Unibus SMD controller Unibus ethernet SDI cable Thanks! -Ian From ama at ugr.es Tue Aug 21 05:21:41 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:21:41 +0200 Subject: Floppy drive cleaning [was Re: Broken floppy disks] In-Reply-To: <0JN100DIU9A8IVK8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JN100DIU9A8IVK8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20070821102141.GA26258@darwin.ugr.es> On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 02:13:31PM -0400, Allison wrote: > I've had the same results with 8,5.25 and 3.5 media. > They all work well for me, I keep the drive clean > and dust bunny free and problems are rare. Which is the best way of cleaning the drives? Thanks, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Aug 21 05:29:18 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:29:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <20070821104103.5ae873f3@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070821104103.5ae873f3@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <200708211029.l7LATIvU023450@mail.itm-inst.com> At 04:41 AM 8/21/2007, Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:26:19 -0400 >Rick Murphy wrote: > > > CI cables are 50 Ohm coax cables with "N" connectors. The outer shell > > is quite a bit larger than a BNC or TNC. >I just went to the machine room and checked. CI is definately TNC. OK, that's not my recollection but it was quite a while back. My memory was of large coaxial cable (similar to thickwire) with N connectors. I didn't think you could put a BNC/TNC connector on large coax, but apparently I'm wrong. Is the cable thin coax? Am I just misremembering and confusing it with thickwire ethernet? -Rick From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 21 06:41:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:41:11 -0500 Subject: Older PC's available / Virginia Message-ID: <200708211045.l7LAjBRq032424@hosting.monisys.ca> Received this email: > My father ran a software company, so we had tons of computers lying > around as kids.. Now we're moving and would like to dispose of them. If possible > I'd like to give them to someone such as yourself who has a personal interest or who > might refurbish them or use the parts to make useful computers. > > We live in Virginia. Are you interested? Or do you know some other > person who might be? Asked for more info and got: > 2 relatively new computers... within the last 5 years, intel pentium > somethings.. im not sure what the specs are. they need memory and such. if > someone who likes taking apart and putting back together again, they could > be used for parts and or improved easily. We just have too many lying > around... > > 1.Compaq Presario 425 > 2. HP Pavillion 2746C > 3. Dell 486P/25 > 4. IBM PS2 Type 853(I'm not sure.. what this is. Its old. There are lots of > things written on the back, ifyou need more info let me know) > > We're more than willing to give them to anyone with interest. Preferably in > the DC metro area... Please be in touch! If anyone is interested, contact me and I'll forward the contact info. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 06:08:03 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 04:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy drive cleaning [was Re: Broken floppy disks] In-Reply-To: <20070821102141.GA26258@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <779974.18794.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I've had the same results with 8,5.25 and 3.5 > media. > > They all work well for me, I keep the drive clean > > and dust bunny free and problems are rare. > > Which is the best way of cleaning the drives? > Dishwasher. Just kidding. I typically will remove the drive from the computer/case, take off any covers, and blow/vacuum out any dust bunnies, fuzzies and debris from the inside of the drive. I've found all sorts of junk in 5 1/4" drives - labels, bits of paper, business cards, write protect tabs, coins, etc. To clean the heads, I use a q-tip with isopropyl alcohol and carefully clean them - you want to be careful not to bend them, that'll make your problem worse... Check to make sure that there isn't any damage or gunk on the rails the head rides on too. Those stupid "cleaning disks" are a nice and lazy way of doing this, but they aren't nearly as effective as a good manual cleaning. Plus, if your drive is full of dust (and I've seen some ferocious dust bunnies), then it's not going to help that. It's also a good idea to clean the dust off the optical index hole sensors (5 1/4" drives) while you're in there. Also clean the clamp/spindle ring on 5 1/4" drives. -Ian From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 21 08:01:21 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:01:21 -0700 Subject: Logic trainer finds References: <02f801c7e385$89482270$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <03c901c7e3cd$dc379720$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <035901c7e3f3$5f4eb420$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Alexandre Souza": >> Unfortunately, I lack the tools to measure that accurately. What I > > Maybe some photos? Mike Stein pointed to the simple expedient of using drill bits to size the hole, and that result came in at 3/32", which is quite close to the 1/10" that I had come up with from measuring the pins. So, I'm sticking with 1/10" for inside diameter of the hole, with the pins tapered from about .09" to about .11" over a distance of about 3/8". The total length of the pin, including the part that crimps, is 5/8". Anyone know of a pin like that? I understand that Tyco/AMP has/had a "93 series" of tapered pins, but I can't find technical drawings for them, nor a current supplier. Tony had suggested milling some, and that gave me the idea that one could mill a tool instead, to deform the standard .093" Molex pins to the correct shape. (Basically something you'd jam into the back to retaper the molded cylinder.) Might be worth a shot. Vince From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 21 10:18:12 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:18:12 +0200 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <200708211029.l7LATIvU023450@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070821104103.5ae873f3@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708211029.l7LATIvU023450@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <20070821171812.78b9d329@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:29:18 -0400 Rick Murphy wrote: > OK, that's not my recollection but it was quite a while back. My > memory was of large coaxial cable (similar to thickwire) with N > connectors. I didn't think you could put a BNC/TNC connector on large > coax, but apparently I'm wrong. Is the cable thin coax? My CI cable is RG58 style, the same as used for thin Ethernet. AFAIK "real" CI cable is RG213, (mostly) the same as used for thick Ethernet / yelow cable. You can fit BNC/TNC connectors to RG213 for sure. You just need the proper connectors. I have to admit: Usually there are BNC / TNC used on RG58 style cable and N on RG213 style cable. But there are N connectors for RG58 also... > Am I just misremembering and confusing it with thickwire ethernet? Most likely. I have some yelow cable Ethernet stuff with N connectors. (transceivers, terminators, cables, ...) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 21 10:28:59 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:28:59 +0200 Subject: ESDI Magneto Optical Drive In-Reply-To: <46CA243F.7000808@compsys.to> References: <57739.4894.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46CA243F.7000808@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20070821172859.530c5c4f@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:31:11 -0400 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > The SMO S-501 consisted of two parts [...] I have one of those drives too. MO drive with ESDI (like) interface and an ESDI to SCSI bridge board with some smarts on it. I even have a metric butload of MO disks. Maybe I should connect the drive to may PDP-11/73 as this machine has an Dilog ESDI disk controller and a Micropolis ESDI disk. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 21 11:09:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:09:43 -0400 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708211209.43855.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 20 August 2007 18:04, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not in my experience, but it seems that a fair number of drives are. > > I'= ve=20 > > had bad luck with some brands, and try to stay away from them, > > includin= g=20 > > one Alps that let the magic smoke out on first powerup, and assorted > > Mit= sumi=20 > > and some others. If I can, I prefer Sony, they seem a bit more > > reliabl= e, =20 > > though there are no doubt some others. Got a whole box of drives around > > = > > I've had a lot of success with Teac drives. Of course I also like the > full-height Sony's (600 rpm spindles), but that's becuase I'm an HP > enthusiast... > > The less said about 'generic' drives the better. I've had some come from > the factory that were _wildly_ out of elignment (I don't mean on the edge > when you stick a CE disk in, I mean way out!). Oh they probably read > their own disk fine, but I wouldn't think you could interchange disks > with anohter drive. > > I learnt the hard way to stick an alignment disk in every drive I bought > and see just how good it is... I got alignment disks way back when for 5.25" drives, but never got a hold of one for the 3.5" form factor, nor 8"... Are these even still available anywhere? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 11:14:56 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:14:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for a couple of DEC parts In-Reply-To: <735113.96951.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <735113.96951.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <624966d60708210914l469b496t5bb1624cbfb7d5a1@mail.gmail.com> If you have exact part numbers you want, I should have most of it. Paul On 8/21/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > I'm looking for a couple of parts to get some Vaxen > running. (A MicroVax II and a Vax 11/750) > > Qbus ethernet > Qbus DSSI controller > Unibus SMD controller > Unibus ethernet > SDI cable > > Thanks! > > -Ian > > From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 21 11:14:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:14:35 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? In-Reply-To: <01C7E375.11CA5520@MSE_D03> References: <01C7E375.11CA5520@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200708211214.35232.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 20 August 2007 20:42, M H Stein wrote: > >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:53:02 -0400 > >From: "Roy J. Tellason" > >Subject: Burroughs parts? > > > >I have some of the following parts, maybe you guys can help me ID this > > stuff? > > > >-- Several tubes of what appear to be resistor packs, branded "Beckman" > > and bearing the part number 1899-258-0, not found under Beckman anywhere > > Shouldn't be too hard to figure out with an ohmmeter... ;-) Yeah, if I wanted to take the time and find my protoboard or something similar to hold it, and... > >--3 tubes of white ceramic-cased w/gold chips marked 1449-1112, I *think* > >this is some kind of DRAM? > > 2102 / TMS4033 1Kx1 SRAM Oh my. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 21 11:27:10 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:27:10 -0400 Subject: 'nother odd drive Message-ID: <200708211227.10728.rtellason@verizon.net> We just got given a "Power Mac 7500 Series" system (is that topical in here?), my first mac. It has, among other things, an external box marked "Syquest" and one "disk" that apparently goes with that, marked 200MB. Anybody familiar with these? All of this stuff is new to me... Also got a couple of printers with this system, a LJ5 and some Epson inkjet, is there any reason I wouldn't be able to use these with any other hardware? I dunno if it coming with the mac makes a difference here or not. Wondering too if that system uses a standard VGA monitor, as that's one thing we _didn't_ get with it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 21 11:49:04 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:49:04 -0400 Subject: Looking for a couple of DEC parts In-Reply-To: <735113.96951.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <735113.96951.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CB1780.4010001@atarimuseum.com> Ian, I have a crate of Unibus boards available - memory, drive controllers, ethernet, async and more... Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm looking for a couple of parts to get some Vaxen > running. (A MicroVax II and a Vax 11/750) > > Qbus ethernet > Qbus DSSI controller > Unibus SMD controller > Unibus ethernet > SDI cable > > Thanks! > > -Ian > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 12:31:42 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'nother odd drive In-Reply-To: <200708211227.10728.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <262490.15062.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > We just got given a "Power Mac 7500 Series" system > (is that topical in here?), > my first mac. It has, among other things, an > external box marked "Syquest" > and one "disk" that apparently goes with that, > marked 200MB. Anybody > familiar with these? Yes. That is a Syquest drive and disk. :). It's basically a removable platter hard disk system - the disk cartridges have an aluminum platter inside. Pretty fast, fairly reliable, and easy to use. No drivers required with the SCSI version, especially with a Macintosh. > Also got a couple of printers with this system, a > LJ5 and some Epson inkjet, > is there any reason I wouldn't be able to use these > with any other hardware? > I dunno if it coming with the mac makes a difference > here or not. Maybe, maybe not. Check the connectors. Macintosh printers typically have a 8 pin mini-din plug instead of a parallel connector. This 8 pin connector is serial. I have, in the past, used a Macintosh printer with a PC clone with the aid of an adapter cable, and running the printer off the PC's serial port. > Wondering too if that system uses a standard VGA > monitor, as that's one thing > we _didn't_ get with it. Yes, it will use a standard monitor. You'll just need to make (or find) an adapter. The sync rates and everything are compatible, however, only the connector is different. It's pretty easy to wire up an adapter, and if you don't want to do that, those adapters are (or used to be) very common. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 12:44:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:44:26 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <20070821171812.78b9d329@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070821104103.5ae873f3@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708211029.l7LATIvU023450@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070821171812.78b9d329@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <7EF1542F-5536-49B7-9DB9-36A8FB6AFBD8@neurotica.com> On Aug 21, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> OK, that's not my recollection but it was quite a while back. My >> memory was of large coaxial cable (similar to thickwire) with N >> connectors. I didn't think you could put a BNC/TNC connector on >> large >> coax, but apparently I'm wrong. Is the cable thin coax? > My CI cable is RG58 style, the same as used for thin Ethernet. AFAIK > "real" CI cable is RG213, (mostly) the same as used for thick > Ethernet / > yelow cable. "Real" CI cables definitely aren't RG213. I have a good bit of both here; they aren't similar at all. CI cables are more reminiscent of semi-rigid coax, moving in the direction of hardline. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From g-wright at att.net Tue Aug 21 12:48:10 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:48:10 +0000 Subject: NCR mini tower looking for info ??? Message-ID: <082120071748.29966.46CB2559000B92680000750E21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I have a couple of these and need some information. These are NCR mini tower servers with a 68000 cpu. Has a Qic type Cartridge tape and comm board with 8 TTY ports (all 15 pin) and 2 CPU ports (1 DB9 and 1 DB15). I believe that the system boots to the CPU port on the back and then goes to the tty00 port after it loads the OS. I can see what it is doing on the CPU port up to the drive test. It works the drive for a short time and then stops displaying anything. The manuals don't say anything about the console port or pin outs. I would guess they expect the system to be install by someone other than the end user. The system freezes on self test when it starts to read the hard drive Or it has switched over to the comm board and TTYxx ports. I would guess that the drive needs to be formatted and the OS reloaded. So does anyone have a boot tape and/or the serial pin outs both 9 and 15 pin for one of these. Thanks, Jerry g-wright at att.net From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Aug 21 12:56:34 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:56:34 -0300 Subject: Broken floppy disks References: <200708211209.43855.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <056701c7e41c$b0cdc100$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I got alignment disks way back when for 5.25" drives, but never got a > hold of > one for the 3.5" form factor, nor 8"... > Are these even still available anywhere? Seems that dysan still sells them. I have a 3.5" disk that needs the "interrogator.exe" program, but I just cannot find it anywhere, and my original disks are lost (I also had the 5 1/4" disks) From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 21 12:59:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:59:20 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? In-Reply-To: <200708211214.35232.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C7E375.11CA5520@MSE_D03> <200708211214.35232.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200708211359.20553.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 21 August 2007 12:14, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >--3 tubes of white ceramic-cased w/gold chips marked 1449-1112, I > > > *think* this is some kind of DRAM? > > > > 2102 / TMS4033 1Kx1 SRAM > > Oh my. :-) I forgot to add, if anyone might find these useful, by all means feel free to contact me offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ohh at drizzle.com Tue Aug 21 13:10:47 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stumbled upon: Douglas Electronics In-Reply-To: <46C9F6CE.31377.48D7D7DE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis asks: > At http://www.douglas.com. In San Leandro. I note that they claim to > offer S-100 and DEC prototype PCBs. Are they still in business--or > is this just an incredibly stale web site? Still in business. I ordered some DEC extender cards from them late last year, and was completely pleased with them. -O.- From marvin at west.net Tue Aug 21 13:24:11 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:24:11 -0700 Subject: VCM Dec Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> I'm not sure how many people here check VCM on a regular basis, but someone has posted quite a bit of DEC stuff including a PDP-8/A ($1400.00.) http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 21 13:35:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:35:40 -0700 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <056701c7e41c$b0cdc100$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: , <056701c7e41c$b0cdc100$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46CACE0C.25062.4C20A563@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Aug 2007 at 14:56, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Seems that dysan still sells them. I have a 3.5" disk that needs the > "interrogator.exe" program, but I just cannot find it anywhere, and my > original disks are lost (I also had the 5 1/4" disks) Hasn't Dysan been out of business for a few years? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysan I wasn't even aware of the attempt to restart the operation in 2003. Cheers, Chuck From shumaker at att.net Tue Aug 21 13:39:30 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:39:30 -0700 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist Message-ID: <200708211839.l7LIdbrr011437@keith.ezwind.net> Craigslist San Francisco has an "HP 250 vintage computer" listed for $150 Post ID is 401790216. Is anyone on-list familiar with this? Worth acquiring? or is it fairly common gear? Doesn't seem to be in bad shape, claims to be bootable and even has some manuals but clearly missing the worktable and monitor. I'm a newbie here so opinions welcome s shumaker From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 14:02:53 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:02:53 -0500 Subject: VCM Dec Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> References: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730708211202k12d7ca71sd8fcdd46e7f7e4c5@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I'm not sure how many people here check VCM on a regular basis, but someone has > posted quite a bit of DEC stuff including a PDP-8/A ($1400.00.) I don't but I should. I had hopes for it being a place to maintain a database of my collection, but it wasn't as suited for that purpose as I first thought. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 21 14:58:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:58:24 +0100 Subject: NCR mini tower looking for info ??? In-Reply-To: <082120071748.29966.46CB2559000B92680000750E21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <082120071748.29966.46CB2559000B92680000750E21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <46CB43E0.3050302@yahoo.co.uk> g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi, > > I have a couple of these and need some information. > These are NCR mini tower servers with a 68000 cpu. I've not heard them called "mini" before, but I think the regular Tower 400 was a 68000 machine with ST412 disk interface (the 'MSC' board) and a HPSIO-8 board for serial. I've got a 700 model - '030 CPU, ECC memory, dual HPSIO-16 boards, Ethernet, HPMSC SCSI controller, system standby/suspend etc. They're not blindingly fast (Ethernet response is *really* sluggish), but they're nice enough machines in a "real computer" kind of way. > a Qic type Cartridge tape and comm board with 8 TTY ports > (all 15 pin) and 2 CPU ports (1 DB9 and 1 DB15). The DB15 is the console. The DB9 is for a remote diagnostic modem link (I'm not sure whether you can get a fully-functional console up on it, and I think it's stuck at 2400 baud) > The manuals don't say anything about the console port or > pin outs. Console pinouts: 1 TxD out 2 RTS out 3 DSR in 4 DTR out 9 RxD in 10 CTS in 11 sig gnd 12 DCD in Hazy memory says that it might expect 9600 baud, 7E1 by default. I might have the jumper settings for the serial board that you have - I can take a look if you want. I think the regular terminal lines might use the same pinouts on your machine (my 700 has 37-way connectors with four ports over each connector). > So does anyone have a boot tape Afraid not... I'd like to hear from anyone who has them too. I've got raw drive image backups of my machine, but it'd be nice to know that the install media was out there. I think there are two flavours of boot tape (unfortunately for me) - one that'll work with 400-6x0 machines, and one that's specific to the 700 (I've not sure about the 750 and 800). Note the if you have a BNC connector toward the bottom of the machine at the back, it's something to do with the power fail detection circuitry. It's not a Ethernet network connector and plugging it into one would result in interesting things happening :-) cheers Jules From drb at msu.edu Tue Aug 21 15:11:07 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:11:07 -0400 Subject: VCM Dec Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:24:11 PDT.) <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> References: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> Message-ID: <200708212011.l7LKB7oe011251@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm not sure how many people here check VCM on a regular basis, but > someone has posted quite a bit of DEC stuff including a PDP-8/A > ($1400.00.) FWIW, this person seems to be an hour and half away from me, over in the thumb area of Michigan. I could probably be coerced into helping with loading or shipment if people find stuff they want. De From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 21 15:15:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:15:14 -0600 Subject: Logic trainer finds In-Reply-To: <035901c7e3f3$5f4eb420$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <02f801c7e385$89482270$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <03c901c7e3cd$dc379720$f0fea8c0@alpha> <035901c7e3f3$5f4eb420$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <46CB47D2.9050605@jetnet.ab.ca> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Tony had suggested milling some, and that gave me the idea that one > could mill a tool instead, to deform the standard .093" Molex pins to > the correct shape. (Basically something you'd jam into the back to > retaper the molded cylinder.) Might be worth a shot. I don't have time to check this out but try seeing if the people who make brass fasteners for CRYSTAL-RADIOS can make the fasteners of the correct shape. I link around here. http://www.schmarder.com/radios/index.htm > Vince > T.F.N. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 14:23:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:23:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Burroughs parts? In-Reply-To: <01C7E375.11CA5520@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Aug 20, 7 09:42:00 pm Message-ID: > > >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:53:02 -0400 > >From: "Roy J. Tellason" > >Subject: Burroughs parts? > > >I have some of the following parts, maybe you guys can help me ID this stuff? > > >-- Several tubes of what appear to be resistor packs, branded "Beckman" and > >bearing the part number 1899-258-0, not found under Beckman anywhere > > Shouldn't be too hard to figure out with an ohmmeter... ;-) It's slightly harder if the resistors are not either indidual pin-pin, or n resistors with one common pin, or a resistor chain with pins at all the tappings. If you assume the resistors link pins (although there may be 'deltas' and other parallel paths in the network), you can actually solve it by taking 2 sets of measurments : 1) Resistance between each pin an all the other pins shorted together. 2) Measuring the output voltage, using the network as a portential divider. Link all but 2 pins together (and call that ground), apply a known voltage to one of the 'free' pins and measure the voltage on the other 'free' pin. Repeat for all combinations. Now, if you consider 2 pins a and b with a resistor Rab between them and an effective restor of Rbg between pin b and all the other pins (not including a and b) shorted togther (this will be all the 'other' resistors connected to pin b in parallel), then: Fro mthe first set of measurements, you get the resistance from pin b to all other pins shorted. THis is Rab // Rbg (since you've conencted pin a to the common point too) >From the second set of measurements, with power on a and output on b, you get Vout = Vin * (Rbg / (Rab + Rbg)). Solve those for Rab, and repeat. I did this once for a resistor array in an HP printer.... -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 21 15:18:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:18:32 -0600 Subject: VCM Dec Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> References: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> Message-ID: <46CB4898.70709@jetnet.ab.ca> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I'm not sure how many people here check VCM on a regular basis, but someone has > posted quite a bit of DEC stuff including a PDP-8/A ($1400.00.) > > http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ Good deal - last week $1500.00. I think it will sell for about $750.00. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 15:32:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:32:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2007, at 10:26 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> > CI cables >> CI cables are ordinary 50 Ohm coax cables with TNC connectors. > > CI cables are 50 Ohm coax cables with "N" connectors. The outer > shell is quite a bit larger than a BNC or TNC. No, CI cables use TNC connectors, not N: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/CI-connectors.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 16:46:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <200708211839.l7LIdbrr011437@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <236846.23092.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> oi can't find it! --- Steve Shumaker wrote: > Craigslist San Francisco has an "HP 250 vintage > computer" listed for > $150 Post ID is 401790216. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From micheladam at theedge.ca Tue Aug 21 16:53:24 2007 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:53:24 -0600 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist Message-ID: <5fc226bd179c3.46cb0a74@theedge.ca> sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ele/401790216.html but it has already been deleted by the original poster... Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris M Date: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:46 pm Subject: Re: HP business computer on Craigslist > oi can't find it! > > --- Steve Shumaker wrote: > > > Craigslist San Francisco has an "HP 250 vintage > > computer" listed for > > $150 Post ID is 401790216. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone > who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 > From shumaker at att.net Tue Aug 21 16:56:43 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:56:43 -0700 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <236846.23092.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200708211839.l7LIdbrr011437@keith.ezwind.net> <236846.23092.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708212157.l7LLv0od025708@keith.ezwind.net> it's gone... someone scored it ss At 02:46 PM 8/21/2007, you wrote: >oi can't find it! > >--- Steve Shumaker wrote: > > > Craigslist San Francisco has an "HP 250 vintage > > computer" listed for > > $150 Post ID is 401790216. > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who >knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. >http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Aug 21 16:58:24 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:58:24 -0700 Subject: Daisy (was For Bay Area Visitors...) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6840@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: No, sorry--and traded the montiors to Dave McGlone quite a few years ago... Talk about battleship construction! Cheers, Chuck _________________ This brings back one of my favorite computer memories. I was doing field support for Fujitsu America. Had to make a service call to Daisy, upgrade some Eagle disk drives. Finished up, was getting the nickel tour and found another system with an Eagle. So we asked the user if he wanted the upgrade. He looked startled and said what disk drive? He had used the system for 5 years, never turned it off. He didn't even know that there was a disk drive in it! Now there was a great disk drive. I miss that level of quality. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:03:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: crazy IBM keypuncher thing on eBay Message-ID: <939255.30471.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Keypunch_W0QQitem Z250154846880QQihZ015QQcategoryZ74946QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I know where an evan older, crazier one can be found. Shhhh hahahaha. Mine mine mine mine! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:04:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <5fc226bd179c3.46cb0a74@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <154862.34675.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> I guess CL doesn't tell you that anymore.. --- micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > > sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ele/401790216.html > > but it has already been deleted by the original > poster... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 21 17:14:55 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:14:55 -0400 Subject: NCR mini tower looking for info ??? In-Reply-To: <082120071748.29966.46CB2559000B92680000750E21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <082120071748.29966.46CB2559000B92680000750E21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <200708211814.55786.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 21 August 2007, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi, > > I have a couple of these and need some information. > These are NCR mini tower servers with a 68000 cpu. Has > a Qic type Cartridge tape and comm board with 8 TTY ports > (all 15 pin) and 2 CPU ports (1 DB9 and 1 DB15). ... > I would guess that the drive needs to be formatted and > the OS reloaded. > > So does anyone have a boot tape and/or the serial pin outs both 9 > and 15 pin for one of these. I gave up trying to make mine work, once I found out that the install tapes are serial-number locked, and (probably) won't work on any machine other than the one they were distributed with. Good luck getting any help from NCR/Unisys on this (Unisys rebadged and sold them under the Unisys brand name.. or did NCR rebadge them?). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:17:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <200708211839.l7LIdbrr011437@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <11905.57440.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> nifty. http://www.sieler.com/hp250/. I'm afraid to ask what one would find inside the beast in the way of logic. I'm sure Tony Duell wouldn't know, so don't ask him. Tee hee But regarding early iron, did anyone grab the Wang thing that was posted on here recently? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 21 17:44:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:44:45 +0100 Subject: NCR mini tower looking for info ??? In-Reply-To: <200708211814.55786.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <082120071748.29966.46CB2559000B92680000750E21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> <200708211814.55786.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46CB6ADD.4060601@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I gave up trying to make mine work, once I found out that the install > tapes are serial-number locked, and (probably) won't work on any > machine other than the one they were distributed with. Hmm, I'd not heard that one before, and back when I got my system (mid 90's) I chatted to a few people who'd worked for NCR on the systems. They talked as though any tape would work with any system - but see my note in the other message about the 700-series distribution being a bit unique. (Supposedly a previous-generation tape would boot and give the illusion of installing on a 700-series machine, but the machine would never complete a successful post-install boot) Unfortunately whilst I pulled the boards [1] from a working 400 series (when I got my 700) and kept those, I couldn't get the drive - the owner of the machine wanted to keep that as it was still worth a bit of money to him. I suspect Jerry's system might be OK though and just in need of a proper console - quite possibly it's either stuck in diagnostic mode or needs the filesystem checking. [1] I *think* I've still got the MSC disk controller and a HPSIO-8 + backplane from that 400. I've probably got some photocopies containing the jumper settings for the various boards, too. > Good luck getting any help from NCR/Unisys Yeah, I never managed to get any help out of them directly 12 years ago, and that situation probably hasn't improved :-) The engineers acting alone were really helpful, though. I even got a complete set of manuals loaned to me once. cheers Jules From charlesmorris at hughes.net Tue Aug 21 20:28:51 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:28:51 -0400 Subject: Paging Jay West! Message-ID: <534nc39vnjss6uljda5nbj63ar2dels3q7@4ax.com> Jay, I'll be driving through St. Louis tomorrow and would like to arrange to pick up my RL02. Please call my cell (417) 293-1984 if you see this before 2 PM on Wed. 22nd... Sorry to take up bandwidth on the list, but there's no answer or voice mail at the number you gave me. thanks Charles From earl at baugh.org Tue Aug 21 22:00:13 2007 From: earl at baugh.org (earl at baugh.org) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:00:13 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <4730929D-F369-4055-8D05-78E2FEDB95AA@baugh.org> I inventoried the parts from my recent rescue, and the following aren't things I'd need (and I am trying to keep things down to need... try to spread the wealth...) So, here's what I have: For Trade or $$ 501-1447 TAAC-1 System Accelerator DFB Board 501-1153 Ethernet VME (Intel ethernet chip) (multi-bus card in adapter) 501-1153 Ethernet VME (Intel ethernet chip) (multi-bus card in adapter) 501-1316 4/3xx VME CPU board 501-1316 4/3xx VME CPU board 501-1381 4/4xx VME CPU board 501-1563 4/3xx VME memory (1M or 4M SIMMs, max 48M/192M) 501-1447 TAAC-1 accelerator, DFB board, VME 501-1269 (mount only) VME 3x2 Adapter Assembly, with P2 A&C, Option 1 60A Type 3 Keyboard with mouse For Pickup Sparc 1 Sparc 1+ x 2 Type 4 Keyboard (with optical mouse) x 2 I'm in the Atlanta area (zip 30005). Earl (cross posted to rescue list) From earl at baugh.org Tue Aug 21 22:01:52 2007 From: earl at baugh.org (earl at baugh.org) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:01:52 -0400 Subject: VME Boards and Sparcstations for Trade and/or pickup Message-ID: (Let's try again with a "subject" this time...sigh...) I inventoried the parts from my recent rescue, and the following aren't things I'd need (and I am trying to keep things down to need... try to spread the wealth...) So, here's what I have: For Trade or $$ 501-1447 TAAC-1 System Accelerator DFB Board 501-1153 Ethernet VME (Intel ethernet chip) (multi-bus card in adapter) 501-1153 Ethernet VME (Intel ethernet chip) (multi-bus card in adapter) 501-1316 4/3xx VME CPU board 501-1316 4/3xx VME CPU board 501-1381 4/4xx VME CPU board 501-1563 4/3xx VME memory (1M or 4M SIMMs, max 48M/192M) 501-1447 TAAC-1 accelerator, DFB board, VME 501-1269 (mount only) VME 3x2 Adapter Assembly, with P2 A&C, Option 1 60A Type 3 Keyboard with mouse For Pickup Sparc 1 Sparc 1+ x 2 Type 4 Keyboard (with optical mouse) x 2 I'm in the Atlanta area (zip 30005). Earl (cross posted to rescue list) From earl at baugh.org Tue Aug 21 22:27:13 2007 From: earl at baugh.org (earl at baugh.org) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:27:13 -0400 Subject: Need a few TC511001C-12 RAM chips Message-ID: <6C802FDA-EAC4-418A-8A33-19674E9A0DA3@baugh.org> Anybody got a few TC511001C-12's laying around that I could trade/buy? I'm working on my Sun 3/110 and the drawer I thought would have some of these seems to be picked over... only found 256K RAM chips left... (not sure what the heck I'm saving those for, but at least they don't take up a lot of space 8-) ) Or if you know of a supplier... I don't need more than 36 (if I have to replace them all on the motherboard...) Thanks. Earl From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Aug 21 22:34:23 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:34:23 -0400 Subject: VCM Dec Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: <46CB4898.70709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CB2DCB.E6F3C341@west.net> <46CB4898.70709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1DBACB19-590A-48B1-9966-65F4EE02AAD8@colourfull.com> On Aug 21, 2007, at 4:18 PM, woodelf wrote: > Marvin Johnston wrote: >> I'm not sure how many people here check VCM on a regular basis, >> but someone has >> posted quite a bit of DEC stuff including a PDP-8/A ($1400.00.) >> http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ > Good deal - last week $1500.00. I think it will sell for about > $750.00. I was out to her house a few weeks ago to pick up some Data General equipment and a really sweet TI-990 system. While I was there, I snapped some additional pictures if anyone is interested in this system. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 21 22:47:55 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:47:55 -0700 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <11905.57440.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <11905.57440.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CBB1EB.1090806@sbcglobal.net> Chris M wrote: > nifty. http://www.sieler.com/hp250/. I'm afraid to ask > what one would find inside the beast in the way of > logic. I'm sure Tony Duell wouldn't know, so don't ask > him. Tee hee > But regarding early iron, did anyone grab the Wang > thing that was posted on here recently? > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ > I just got home with the HP 250 shoved in the back of my wagon and saw this thread. It came with quite a bit of documentation which I have not yet gone through. If there's anything that's not on bitsavers, I'll get it to Al. Looks to be in pretty good shape except it's missing the monitor that was attached to the table top and the side end of the table. Did come with a remote terminal and keyboard which looks like the 2645 style, also a spare 8" floppy drive and a bunch of cables. I'll try and get some photos of it up on my web site this weekend. Bob From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 22:51:40 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:51:40 -0500 Subject: Free books Message-ID: <51ea77730708212051o59b46d3dhf15e62c16d329312@mail.gmail.com> Nothing great here, but I thought I'd check before they get pulped. Will send for cost of postage from 60074: Introducing dBase II by Lan Barnes Introducing dBase III by Lan Barnes Mastering VisiCalc by Douglas Hergert Lotus 1-2-3 for the IBM PC by Lon Ingalsbe The Power of VisiCalc Volume 1/Volume 2 by Robert E. Williams and some other guys All are discards from Valparaiso, IN library. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 22:58:42 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:58:42 -0700 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... Message-ID: I just happened to spot this on eBay while looking at something else. A VAX 4000-108, in other words a VAX that looks like a DEC Alpha PWS. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130141799752 ELI only wants $8.5k for it, while they will see you a nice DS20E dual 667Mhz system for $2.3k, even an ES45 with dual 1Ghz CPU's is cheaper. :^) At the same time this is the first photograph I've ever seen of one of these systems. Somewhere I have the golden egg describing it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 23:07:17 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:07:17 -0500 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At the same time this is the first photograph I've ever seen of one > of these systems. Somewhere I have the golden egg describing it. > > Zane Hah, the price is insane. Love those ebay "liquidators." Was that the last ever VAX? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 23:23:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:23:56 -0700 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:07 PM -0500 8/21/07, Jason T wrote: >On 8/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At the same time this is the first photograph I've ever seen of one >> of these systems. Somewhere I have the golden egg describing it. >> >> Zane > >Hah, the price is insane. Love those ebay "liquidators." Was that >the last ever VAX? The price is not insane, ELI is a legitimate DEC reseller who just happens to have an eBay presence. A top of the line VAX can still go for big $$$'s as there are those looking to stay on real hardware, while upgrading their existing hardware. The interesting thing about these is that with the right option you can add Q-Bus slots. http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC_Archives/80755.html I'm not sure, but I believe you can still buy these and a few other models from HP. What I find amusing is that these are still worth big bucks, while something like the DS20E is dropping significantly in price. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 23:34:01 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:34:01 -0500 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708212134i29436c85kf1d05241effebc65@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > The price is not insane, ELI is a legitimate DEC reseller who just > happens to have an eBay presence. A top of the line VAX can still go > for big $$$'s as there are those looking to stay on real hardware, Interesting, I didn't know the line went on that long (a list I found put that model's introduction at 1996.) At work we had a VaxStation 4000 that was still being used for compiling certain code. Instead of relying on keeping it going, we spent the big $ on the Charon Vax emulator. It's working fine, but I have to wonder if SimH would have done the job as well :) -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 23:41:48 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:41:48 -0500 Subject: Possibly classic flight controller Message-ID: <51ea77730708212141n2acf406t100558d9531da73e@mail.gmail.com> I picked this up at a hamfest last week. It may be about 10 years old :) http://tinyurl.com/2vprxy I need to start the long search for info and to get it going. Anyone recognize it? It's made by NT Systems of Melbourne, FL, who appear to be gone. Ports of the back suggest it hooked to the PC keyboard port (AT-style DIN5,) but it could as easily have used a custom interface card. Other ports are: power, keyboard, RS232/Modem, DB25 for rudder pedals (marked "This is not a serial port,") There's no model number that I can find. The gauges are fake, but they are surrounded by membrane buttons. The yoke moves in and out on a hydraulic shaft. The only thing I've found so far via Google is a Flight Sim 98 DOS driver for some product of theirs, not necessarily that one. Next stop, the flight sim forums, but thought I'd start here. -- jht From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 23:47:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:47:52 -0700 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708212134i29436c85kf1d05241effebc65@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730708212134i29436c85kf1d05241effebc65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:34 PM -0500 8/21/07, Jason T wrote: >On 8/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> The price is not insane, ELI is a legitimate DEC reseller who just >> happens to have an eBay presence. A top of the line VAX can still go >> for big $$$'s as there are those looking to stay on real hardware, > >Interesting, I didn't know the line went on that long (a list I found >put that model's introduction at 1996.) The latest doc's I've seen are for '99. >At work we had a VaxStation 4000 that was still being used for >compiling certain code. Instead of relying on keeping it going, we >spent the big $ on the Charon Vax emulator. It's working fine, but I >have to wonder if SimH would have done the job as well :) SIMH can't be used for VAX emulation in a non-Hobbyist setting legally. Not really sure why, but you can't transfer your licenses over. I suspect part of it has to do with that magic saying "support contract". Of course from what I've seen on a couple mail lists it sounds as if people are using SIMH commercially. I'm still using real hardware, but one of these is over kill for my requirements, and I'm not a commercial setting. Still it would look nice sitting next to my Compaq XP1000/667! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 21 23:49:45 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:49:45 -0700 Subject: Possibly classic flight controller In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708212141n2acf406t100558d9531da73e@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708212141n2acf406t100558d9531da73e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:41 PM -0500 8/21/07, Jason T wrote: >I picked this up at a hamfest last week. It may be about 10 years old :) > >http://tinyurl.com/2vprxy > >I need to start the long search for info and to get it going. Anyone >recognize it? It's made by NT Systems of Melbourne, FL, who appear to >be gone. Ports of the back suggest it hooked to the PC keyboard port >(AT-style DIN5,) but it could as easily have used a custom interface >card. Other ports are: power, keyboard, RS232/Modem, DB25 for rudder >pedals (marked "This is not a serial port,") There's no model number >that I can find. The gauges are fake, but they are surrounded by >membrane buttons. The yoke moves in and out on a hydraulic shaft. >The only thing I've found so far via Google is a Flight Sim 98 DOS >driver for some product of theirs, not necessarily that one. > >Next stop, the flight sim forums, but thought I'd start here. I'd guess it is specifically for Microsoft Flight Simulator. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 00:03:37 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:03:37 -0500 Subject: Possibly classic flight controller In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730708212141n2acf406t100558d9531da73e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708212203v2e3d9314k7c65eb5631f944d9@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'd guess it is specifically for Microsoft Flight Simulator. Quite likely, since there wasn't much else for simulation on the PC back then. I somehow missed the label on the bottom last time I flipped it over. Unfortunately it was paper and most of it has rubbed off, so no model#. It was made in 1995, though. Any the power connector cracked off as soon as I touched it :( From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 22 00:06:07 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:06:07 -0700 Subject: Gooey rollers again. In-Reply-To: <11905.57440.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <11905.57440.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CBC43F.7070403@sbcglobal.net> I picked up a nice Decision Data model 8010 keypunch machine through govliquidation. It looks to be in good shape EXCEPT some rollers have turned to goo. They act just like peanut butter, looks like it too. These are not simple round rollers but are tapered, and there are 16 of them in a complex arrangement. Any ideas on how to fix them? I guess I'm going to have to find some suitable plastic and turn them on a lathe. Probably beyond my ability. Here are some photos: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dd6.jpg http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dd7.jpg Bob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 22 00:27:07 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possibly classic flight controller In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708212141n2acf406t100558d9531da73e@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708212141n2acf406t100558d9531da73e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Jason T wrote: > I picked this up at a hamfest last week. It may be about 10 years old :) > > http://tinyurl.com/2vprxy > > I need to start the long search for info and to get it going. Anyone > recognize it? It's made by NT Systems of Melbourne, FL, who appear to > be gone. Ports of the back suggest it hooked to the PC keyboard port > (AT-style DIN5,) but it could as easily have used a custom interface > card. I wouldn't rule out MIDI. It provides everything you'd need to operate all those gizmos and is cheap and easy to interface to. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Aug 22 01:07:22 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:07:22 +0200 Subject: VAXstation 3100 FB problem Message-ID: <1187762843.2866.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello, I've got a VAXstation 3100 (Thanks, Peter Coghlan!) that I recently acquired while on holiday in Ireland. There is a problem I'm having with it - the 8-plane colour display controller is giving me an error message on startup: ?? 4 00D0 0016.0052 When I run test 4 on the Chevron prompt I get: >>> test 4 4?.. 84 FAIL and when I try test 50 I get (...) ?? 8PLN 0016.0052 (...) Does anyone know what could be ailing my new toy? The machine will run perfectly using the mono adapter, though VMS 7.3 will crash hard when trying to access the device (starting the X server). Is there a list of these error messages, somewhere? Thanks, Tore From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Aug 22 01:45:33 2007 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:45:33 -0600 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 Message-ID: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> So I'm watching old Stargate SG-1 episodes getting ready for the upcoming movies, and in a scene from Season 2 episode 20 titled "Show and Tell" I find: http://rikers.org/tmp/sg1hp.jpg Guess it's apparent why dialing the gate takes so long. They have not upgraded the computers since the 70s. Looks like an HP-2112 or 2113 to me. The hard drive below it is newer than my HP-7901 drives. I'm guessing HP-7905 or HP-7906. Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From g-wright at att.net Wed Aug 22 01:52:43 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 06:52:43 +0000 Subject: NCR mini tower looking for info ??? Message-ID: <082220070652.13890.46CBDD3A000246320000364221602807419B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, Jules -------------- Original message from Jules Richardson : -------------- > g-wright at att.net wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a couple of these and need some information. > > These are NCR mini tower servers with a 68000 cpu. The mother board says mini tower on it. model is listed as a 3450 the mother board has 530xxx number on it with a 1984 date. the demenions are 24"H x 24"D x 5"W The manuals all cover tower, mimi tower and tower 32 ???? > > I've not heard them called "mini" before, but I think the regular Tower 400 > was a 68000 machine with ST412 disk interface (the 'MSC' board) and a HPSIO-8 > board for serial. sounds real close to the same. could be marketing here that changes the model > I've got a 700 model - '030 CPU, ECC memory, dual HPSIO-16 boards, Ethernet, > HPMSC SCSI controller, system standby/suspend etc. They're not blindingly > fast (Ethernet response is *really* sluggish), but they're nice enough > machines in a "real computer" kind of way. > > > a Qic type Cartridge tape and comm board with 8 TTY ports > > (all 15 pin) and 2 CPU ports (1 DB9 and 1 DB15). > > The DB15 is the console. The DB9 is for a remote diagnostic modem link (I'm > not sure whether you can get a fully-functional console up on it, and I think > it's stuck at 2400 baud) > > > The manuals don't say anything about the console port or > > pin outs. > > Console pinouts: > > 1 TxD out > 2 RTS out > 3 DSR in > 4 DTR out > 9 RxD in > 10 CTS in > 11 sig gnd > 12 DCD in > did not get a chance to try this tonight. Are the ports hard wired for flow control ??? It always helps to look down the right hole i was just tring to get anything to work. what looks right is not always true. > Hazy memory says that it might expect 9600 baud, 7E1 by default. I might have > the jumper settings for the serial board that you have - I can take a look if > you want. > > I think the regular terminal lines might use the same pinouts on your machine > (my 700 has 37-way connectors with four ports over each connector). > > > So does anyone have a boot tape > > Afraid not... I'd like to hear from anyone who has them too. I've got raw > drive image backups of my machine, but it'd be nice to know that the install > media was out there. I think there are two flavours of boot tape > (unfortunately for me) - one that'll work with 400-6x0 machines, and one > that's specific to the 700 (I've not sure about the 750 and 800). > > Note the if you have a BNC connector toward the bottom of the machine at the > back, it's something to do with the power fail detection circuitry. It's not a > Ethernet network connector and plugging it into one would result in > interesting things happening :-) > thanks for the warning > cheers > > Jules Is there a listing for the 5 leds along the top of the mother board. When it is in the run position and it get through selftest only the Run LED stays stays on. - Jerry From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 02:11:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 03:11:54 -0400 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E9AA28E-1917-420F-9D23-5D085E8A2911@neurotica.com> On Aug 22, 2007, at 12:07 AM, Jason T wrote: >> At the same time this is the first photograph I've ever seen of one >> of these systems. Somewhere I have the golden egg describing it. > > Hah, the price is insane. It's actually not a bad price. > Love those ebay "liquidators." E.L.I. Systems is a fairly well-known and very old DEC reseller. > Was that the last ever VAX? If not, it was close. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Aug 22 02:31:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:31:12 -0700 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <46CBE63F.799D30FD@cs.ubc.ca> Tim Riker wrote: > > So I'm watching old Stargate SG-1 episodes getting ready for the > upcoming movies, and in a scene from Season 2 episode 20 titled "Show > and Tell" I find: > > http://rikers.org/tmp/sg1hp.jpg > > Guess it's apparent why dialing the gate takes so long. They have not > upgraded the computers since the 70s. That would be about right, the last upgrade was probably when it was the "The Time Tunnel". > Looks like an HP-2112 or 2113 to > me. The hard drive below it is newer than my HP-7901 drives. I'm > guessing HP-7905 or HP-7906. > > Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 22 02:46:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:46:28 -0600 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <46CBE9D4.8050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Riker wrote: > Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? You are very lucky to find any computers really other than some sort of military command center and even then it is mostly some sort of control console in most Si-Fi. I think EGYPT not HP with SG-1, and that I would expect to cover most Alien/UFO/Space type Si-Fi. ** COMPUTERS ** are a EARTH ONLY item. Ben PS. Star Trek/2001/Martian successor Nadesico are the only ones I can think of that have computers as a major components in the si-fi that I have seen and the A.I. always goes insane. 'Lost in Space' has a classic computer console but I have never seen it on T.V. except for one really bad episode. I think this covers Si-Fi and computer use; that must be the only HP shot ever used. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 22 03:04:34 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:04:34 +0200 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <7EF1542F-5536-49B7-9DB9-36A8FB6AFBD8@neurotica.com> References: <46C8D155.5060407@gmail.com> <20070820095602.228d9957@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708210226.l7L2QJNT021933@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070821104103.5ae873f3@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200708211029.l7LATIvU023450@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070821171812.78b9d329@SirToby.dinner41.local> <7EF1542F-5536-49B7-9DB9-36A8FB6AFBD8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070822100434.57518647@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:44:26 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > "Real" CI cables definitely aren't RG213. I have a good bit of > both here; they aren't similar at all. Thanks for the clarification. All CI stuff I have seen is some third party stuff. The only real DEC part was the star coupler. > CI cables are more > reminiscent of semi-rigid coax, moving in the direction of hardline. Massively over-engineered. - As usual at DEC. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 05:39:49 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 03:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tube or not Tube In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023182@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <243020.21540.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Before doing anything drastic it crossed my mind > that somebody at some > may have changed the tube in a DEC terminal. > There are two issues with this one. > > a) Where do you get the replacement tube from. Typically, from something else. Like other terminals, 12" monochrome PC monitors, and portable black and white television sets. A lot of these tubes are interchangeable. I've run across some that aren't, but for the most part, with black and white tubes, if the base fits, the neck and deflection angle is the same, and the heater is the same voltage, it's a good chance it will work. > b) How do you fit it. #include Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the high voltage first (in both the terminal, and whatever you're stealing a tube from!). To do this, attach a length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the terminal/whatever. Hold the insulated plastic handle of the screwdriver and slide it under the rubber suction cup of the picture tube, until you feel the metal clip inside. Typically, this will be accompanied by a *CRACK* as the high voltage discharges. (Although, it is possible that the HV dissapated earlier, depends on the terminal) Do this twice just to be sure. To remove the clip, peel up the rubber suction cup, and you'll see it's a hooked clip that fits into a hole in the tube. Squeeze the clip together and gently remove it. Obviously, you'll want to disconnect the other wires leading to the tube - the base socket, and the yoke connector. Disconnect the yoke at the board, and leave it on the tube as you remove it. Unbolt the tube from the frame, and pull it out, careful not to break the neck. Also watch out for ground leads. The new tube needs to physically fit and mount in the terminal. There are two basic types of picture tube - the tubes with ears that bolt to something, and the tubes without ears, that use a metal ring to hold them to whatever. (VT100's have ears, VT220's don't). Your replacement tube must be of the same type in order to fit. The yoke needs to stay with the terminal. This is the copper coil thing on the back of the tube. Loosen the screws that clamp it to the neck of the tube and carefully remove it. Remember what way is up. You'll need to move this to your new tube. Try to get it on straight - it controls deflection, and if it's on crooked, the picture will be crooked. It's easy to adjust later though. Reassemble terminal with new tube. Cross your fingers and hit the switch. If it works, adjust your yoke for a level picture (carefully, you don't want to zap yourself). Once the yoke is level, shut the terminal off and tighten the yoke so it won't move. > If anybody has tried it I would be pleased to hear > how they got on. I have replaced the tubes in a couple things, and had pretty good luck. I replaced the tube in a VT100 with one from a PC monochrome monitor, and it works well. One time, I even swapped a worn out IBM monitor tube back into a television. It was the only TV ever with WordPerfect screen burn. And those long persistance phosphors make TV look really weird. I kept it around as a joke for a while - I said that it was a black and white TV I converted to color. (Green is a color). -Ian * Be careful messing with high voltage stuff! Keep one hand behind your back when discharging tubes, and be sure your discharge tool is properly grounded to the metal chassis of the device. There's several kV potentially stored in there. I don't believe there's enough in a terminal to kill you, but it'll hurt like hell. Best to be as careful as you can. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 05:49:30 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 03:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gooey rollers again. In-Reply-To: <46CBC43F.7070403@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <375881.93785.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I picked up a nice Decision Data model 8010 keypunch > machine Neat! > They act just > like peanut butter, looks like it too. Mmmmm roller and jelly sandwich... These are not > simple round > rollers but are tapered, > and there are 16 of them in a complex arrangement. > Any ideas on how to > fix them? Ooh. Fun. I know a lot of people have had luck replacing rollers by cleaning the gunk off the existing core, and fitting neoprene tubing of the proper diameter onto it. In this case, they're tapered, so you'll have to do some shaping. > I guess I'm going to have to find some suitable > plastic and turn them on > a lathe. Probably > beyond my ability. Not necessarily - you can probably get away with replacing the rubber with a suitably thick walled tubing (like neoprene tubing, or maybe rubber automotive hose), and shaping it. Find a way to attach a roller onto an electric drill, and grind it against some sandpaper to shape it. You might even be able to make some kind of tool - like a block of wood with the shape of the roller taper cut into it, with sandpaper or sanding screen attached. I've never had to make a tapered roller, but it's worth a shot. -Ian From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Aug 22 07:15:47 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:15:47 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found Message-ID: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> Hello Listers, last week I acquired what seems to be a Tektronix 4002 terminal - at least that's what a sticker on the rear of the base says. The front bezel with the type designation was nowhere to be found - apart from that, the unit looks just like the one at http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/tek4002a.html The "screen" part was missing, but we located a display unit (obviously self-contained - this matches the description above) nearby which has aluminum mounting rails to fit the screw holes in the base of the terminal. It has a power inlet and a DB-25 connector carrying what I suppose to be "raw" deflection/control signals - this would match the connectors available at the back of the terminal base, apart from the fact that the power connector coming from the base is an IEC coupler and the inlet on the back of the display isn't (has a round PE pin - the P and N blades fit the IEC coupler). So far I have a few questions about this thing: -Is the display we found really the one that goes with the base? -What kind of cable do I need to connect the two? (http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/rampspoed.html shows how it looks, but what are the actual connections - 1:1 or something different? Perhaps even some coax or twisted pairs?) -Some of the slots in the backplane of the base unit are unpopulated. Is this normal? -and last but not least, are there any special pitfalls I should be on the lookout for when I finally go about powering the thing on? Will it probably need capacitor reforming beforehand? Thanks in advance, yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Aug 22 07:25:59 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:25:59 -0300 Subject: Tube or not Tube References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023182@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <016701c7e4b7$a81bf0e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > a) Where do you get the replacement tube from. > b) How do you fit it. Rod, I don't know your terminals, but anything that phisically fits into an old green phospor terminal, USUALLY is electronicaly compatible. Just use the new tube, keep the old yoke and you are done. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Aug 22 08:29:53 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:29:53 -0400 Subject: Colossal Cave Source In-Reply-To: <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I don't remember seeing this on the list, if it was previously mentioned. I apologize. Now, with that out of the way. They found the original source for colossal cave. Here's a small blurb. http://64.223.189.234/node/470 Rob ps. I know. Weird address. Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Aug 22 08:38:41 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:38:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <1187772609.23089.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730708212134i29436c85kf1d05241effebc65@mail.gmail.com> <1187772609.23089.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070822143156.X99503@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 21:47 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> SIMH can't be used for VAX emulation in a non-Hobbyist setting >> legally. > > That probably depends where you are. A bone of contention with certain > Linux distributions is their lack of MP3 support, which is left out > simply because the US allows software patents and is a very litigious > country. > > I wouldn't be surprised if it was perfectly legal to use Simh outside > the US in a commercial environment. The licences may say otherwise, but > not be legally valid. Well it certainly used to be the case that when you bought a VAX it came with a base VMS license, on top of which you could add licenses for additional users (or 'unlimited' if you were rich) and layered products. And you could transfer any license but base from one machine to another on paying a few hundred quid to DEC. And if you bought a second hand machine by rights you had to pay the fees to transfer the licenses over into your name. Of course if you had the PAKs from the previous owners you could still run VMS and your apps. But the license keys would be in their name and I can't see how this would be legal. Unless this practice was not legal in the UK all along and Digital just got away with it... In any case simh has no base license and if you transfered one from a real microvax you'd be lying. I suspect with Charon SRI have got HP to issue base licenses to go with their soft-VAXen. Andrew From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 22 08:36:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:36:09 +0100 Subject: HM5026 DRAM pinout Message-ID: <46CC3BC9.6020003@yahoo.co.uk> Anyone happen to have a pinout for this beastie? Nothing too exciting - but getting bounced around parts suppliers when Googling for a pinout is starting to drive me insane :-] ta J. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 09:09:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free books In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708212051o59b46d3dhf15e62c16d329312@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <279507.84974.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> if you can spare the time, and it doesn't take a huge amount, *scan* such material with a digital camera (of any mpix rating). Someone will be looking for it eventually. I've had stuff like that, and hated tossing it. --- Jason T wrote: > Nothing great here, but I thought I'd check before > they get pulped. > Will send for cost of postage from 60074: > > Introducing dBase II by Lan Barnes > Introducing dBase III by Lan Barnes > Mastering VisiCalc by Douglas Hergert > Lotus 1-2-3 for the IBM PC by Lon Ingalsbe > The Power of VisiCalc Volume 1/Volume 2 by Robert E. > Williams and some > other guys > > > All are discards from Valparaiso, IN library. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 09:43:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:43:14 -0500 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730708220743u56d351cq51faa7e64559372e@mail.gmail.com> On 8/22/07, Tim Riker wrote: > Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? Not completely vintage, but I've noticed that in early and mid episodes, Stargate Command is a fan of the IBM Model M keyboard. Perhaps they recognized its dual utility as a weapon :) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 09:44:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sperry Portable/Luggable? Message-ID: <987393.72026.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> What is it? I have a BASIC manual (somewhere) for this machine. Durn must be rarer then the Vicki. And on that note, which units would classify as the top 5 or 10 rarest portables. No goofy handheld things, the largest majority of which aren't even vintage. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 09:50:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3270 Message-ID: <23890.87378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Vintage-1981-IBM-Computer-In-great-Condition_W0QQitemZ160148944781QQihZ006QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem is the only thing that distinguishes this unit from a vanilla 5150 a card that allows it to network with a mainframe? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 22 09:57:28 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:57:28 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found In-Reply-To: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> References: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> Message-ID: <46CC4ED8.9050502@sbcglobal.net> Arno Kletzander wrote: > Hello Listers, > > last week I acquired what seems to be a Tektronix 4002 terminal - at least that's what a sticker on the rear of the base says. The front bezel with the type designation was nowhere to be found - apart from that, the unit looks just like the one at > > http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/tek4002a.html > > The "screen" part was missing, but we located a display unit (obviously self-contained - this matches the description above) nearby which has aluminum mounting rails to fit the screw holes in the base of the terminal. It has a power inlet and a DB-25 connector carrying what I suppose to be "raw" deflection/control signals - this would match the connectors available at the back of the terminal base, apart from the fact that the power connector coming from the base is an IEC coupler and the inlet on the back of the display isn't (has a round PE pin - the P and N blades fit the IEC coupler). > > So far I have a few questions about this thing: > -Is the display we found really the one that goes with the base? > -What kind of cable do I need to connect the two? (http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/rampspoed.html shows how it looks, but what are the actual connections - 1:1 or something different? Perhaps even some coax or twisted pairs?) > -Some of the slots in the backplane of the base unit are unpopulated. Is this normal? > -and last but not least, are there any special pitfalls I should be on the lookout for when I finally go about powering the thing on? Will it probably need capacitor reforming beforehand? > > Thanks in advance, yours sincerely > Great find! I've been looking for one for many years. I don't have any docs on this terminal so can't help on the cable. After you check out the power supply and reform/replace any bad caps, and power it on, the screen should slowly turn fully green. Leave it this way for 5 min. or so before you issue any erase commands (keyboard or program). This procedure reduces the ion content in the CRT and maximizes the CRT life. I got this from a Tektronix service manual for the 611 storage display. It says to do this anytime it's been off for two weeks or more. I have been following this for 15 years now on my 611 (built in 1971) and it's still working great. Bob From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Aug 22 10:33:28 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:33:28 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found In-Reply-To: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> References: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> Message-ID: Arno, I used one of those both at JPL and Caltech in the '70s. Worked quite well. I don't have any service information but I did scan the user manual that I have. Al or others may have other scans or additional information. For my scan, see: John From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 22 11:24:02 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:24:02 -0500 Subject: Inside the personal computer article at TechRepublic Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070822111438.0bf97210@localhost> This is interesting. Cracking Open Vintage Computers Photo Galleries... As giant lizards once roamed our planet, so did mammoth machines once balance our checkbooks. Come along as we take a look back the some of the earliest and most unique personal computers - the Kenbak-1, Altair 8800, and Pet 2001. -- Bill Detwiler, TechRepublic Content Development Manager Kenbak-1 http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-15160-1.html Altair 8800 http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-1453.html?tag=nl.e099.dl082207 PET 2001 http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-1477.html?tag=nl.e099.dl082207 ----- 237. [Philosophy] "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add but when there is nothing more to take out." --Antoine St Exupery --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Aug 22 11:35:20 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:35:20 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found In-Reply-To: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> References: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> Message-ID: <46CC65C8.209@bluewin.ch> Arno Kletzander wrote: > Hello Listers, > > last week I acquired what seems to be a Tektronix 4002 terminal - at least that's what a sticker on the rear of the base says. The front bezel with the type designation was nowhere to be found - apart from that, the unit looks just like the one at > > http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/tek4002a.html When you come over to fetch that uVAX II you can have a go at my Tek 4014..... Jos Dreesen From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 22 12:02:46 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:02:46 -0700 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist Message-ID: <46CC6C36.1070704@bitsavers.org> > If there's anything that's not on bitsavers, I'll get it to Al. I have a big backlog of 250 docs that are scanned but not post processed. May be different manual revs, though. Did you get any distribution floppies? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 22 12:06:23 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:06:23 -0700 Subject: Inside the personal computer article at TechRepublic Message-ID: <46CC6D0F.4030808@bitsavers.org> Nice job on the lack of Kenbak photo/scan source credits... From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 12:53:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:53:27 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening In-Reply-To: <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0708221053g52db7cberf6eafbd54cf4ba88@mail.gmail.com> On 17/08/07, David Cantrell wrote: > On Tue, Aug 14, 2007 at 09:55:49AM +0100, Mark Wickens wrote: > > > I can't believe I've opened such a heated debate! > > How about another suggestion - a UK cctalk members get together. It looks like > > the complexity of organising a general event, and previously documented > > failures, are likely to put people off. > > > > I'm thinking 'start small' here. Maybe an event with 30 or so participants? > > Primarily to 'chew-the-cud'? > > How about "come to the pub and natter". > > I propose the evening of Thursday the 6th of September, at whatever > venue the London Perl Mongers choose for their social to be held on that > day. It will be announced here: > http://london.pm.org/meetings/ > > Sure, it's not convenient for non-Londoners, but it's a start. Sounds like a plan to me. I'm game. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 13:00:57 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:00:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? Message-ID: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> A few years ago, a friend of mine gave me a MicroVAX - I think a 3100. I never got round to doing anything with it, then he asked for it back, pending giving me a newer, better machine - but then his life went a bit pear-shaped and he lost his entire collection, leaving me VAXless. It now emerges I have an urgent need to polish up my VMS knowledge, which is a good excuse. I was thus wondering if anyone in England - ideally, around the SE - had any spare VAXen they might part with for an impoverished fellow-hobbyist? I don't really need disks - I have a small stockpile of SCSI drives and maybe even some ESDIs somewhere. It does need to be otherwise running, though. I have SCSI CD-ROMs available and a Hobbyist CD somewhere. In the meantime, I'll try SIMH, but I'd much prefer real hardware if possible. In an ideal world, I would really love an old VAXstation. I used to rather like DECwindows and would love to play with it again... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From julian at jnt.me.uk Wed Aug 22 13:09:54 2007 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:09:54 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening In-Reply-To: <575131af0708221053g52db7cberf6eafbd54cf4ba88@mail.gmail.com> References: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <575131af0708221053g52db7cberf6eafbd54cf4ba88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46CC7BF2.7010305@jnt.me.uk> >> How about "come to the pub and natter". >> >> I propose the evening of Thursday the 6th of September, at whatever >> venue the London Perl Mongers choose for their social to be held on that >> day. It will be announced here: >> http://london.pm.org/meetings/ >> >> Sure, it's not convenient for non-Londoners, but it's a start. >> Any of the North West list members fancy meeting up in / around Manchester then? Julian From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 22 13:27:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Aug 22, 2007 07:00:57 PM Message-ID: <200708221827.l7MIRLRQ010536@onyx.spiritone.com> > It now emerges I have an urgent need to polish up my VMS knowledge, > which is a good excuse. > > I was thus wondering if anyone in England - ideally, around the SE - > had any spare VAXen they might part with for an impoverished > fellow-hobbyist? It is a shame that you didn't ask about this a week or so ago. Check comp.os.vms for a posting last week by Elliott Roper. He *might* have one or two systems left, but I think he's pretty much unloaded everything (he had a lot). He is in Hayfield, which is about 15 miles SE of Manchester. > running, though. I have SCSI CD-ROMs available and a Hobbyist CD > somewhere. Keep in mind they need to support 512-byte blocks. > In the meantime, I'll try SIMH, but I'd much prefer real hardware if > possible. Don't blame you. I only run VMS on real hardware. > In an ideal world, I would really love an old VAXstation. I used to > rather like DECwindows and would love to play with it again... You might want to ask around about an Alpha as well. The thing to keep in mind with an Alpha though is that it needs a *LOT* more RAM. BTW, ones first VAX should always be SCSI based if at all possible. It will make non-SCSI ones that much easier to get up and running. :^) (my first two weren't) Zane From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 22 13:27:46 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:27:46 -0400 Subject: Closet cleaning - stuff available Message-ID: All: I have a bunch of spare stuff laying around looking for a good home: * Compaq DLT-III 5/10gb drive in external case. Working. * Compaq DLT-IV 35/70gb drive in external case. Working. * Philips Velo 1 WinCE PC. Worked when last used several years ago. B&W. * Tandy 2000 case parts (top, bottom, front plastic case pieces). No drive or switch filler plates included. Kind of yellowed. * Tandy 2000 VM-1 monochrome monitor (works, spare). Kind of yellowed. * Tandy 2000 MS-DOS and BASIC document binders with manuals. Condition fair (intact but dirty). * Atari ST-1224 monitor. Bought to hack to use with the T2K until I found a real CM-1. I hope to get around $10 for each item except the Atari monitor which I hope to get $25 (same price I paid), plus shipping from 11791. Other reasonable offers/combinations considered. For those preferring to trade, I?m looking for early Compute! Magazines (issues prior to #22 but not 3, 8, or 9), a plastic case for my KIM-1, the software support disk for the Ampro LittleBoard/186, the Windows 1.03 driver disk for the Tandy 2000, or a working 5.25? floppy system with disk for my IMSAI. Please contact off-list if interested. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 22 13:39:28 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Colossal Cave Source In-Reply-To: References: <200708201703.l7KH2dFS022310@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <51567.207.245.121.210.1187631325.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> <46C996F4.22764.47617200@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2007, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I don't remember seeing this on the list, if it was previously > mentioned. I apologize. > > Now, with that out of the way. They found the original source for > colossal cave. > Here's a small blurb. > > http://64.223.189.234/node/470 I heard about that on rec.arts.int-fiction. The article that's no longer visible was captured and put here: http://mirror.ifarchive.org/if-archive/articles/original_adventure.zip -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 22 13:54:52 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:54:52 -0400 Subject: Closet cleaning - stuff available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Clarification ? the second DLT drive is a DLT4000 which is 20mb/40mb, not 35mb/70mb. Sorry about that. On 8/22/07 2:27 PM, "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > I have a bunch of spare stuff laying around looking for a good home: > > * Compaq DLT-III 5/10gb drive in external case. Working. > * Compaq DLT-IV 35/70gb drive in external case. Working. > * Philips Velo 1 WinCE PC. Worked when last used several years ago. B&W. > * Tandy 2000 case parts (top, bottom, front plastic case pieces). No drive > or switch filler plates included. Kind of yellowed. > * Tandy 2000 VM-1 monochrome monitor (works, spare). Kind of yellowed. > * Tandy 2000 MS-DOS and BASIC document binders with manuals. Condition > fair (intact but dirty). > * Atari ST-1224 monitor. Bought to hack to use with the T2K until I found > a real CM-1. > > I hope to get around $10 for each item except the Atari monitor which I > hope to get $25 (same price I paid), plus shipping from 11791. Other > reasonable offers/combinations considered. For those preferring to trade, I?m > looking for early Compute! Magazines (issues prior to #22 but not 3, 8, or 9), > a plastic case for my KIM-1, the software support disk for the Ampro > LittleBoard/186, the Windows 1.03 driver disk for the Tandy 2000, or a working > 5.25? floppy system with disk for my IMSAI. > > Please contact off-list if interested. Thanks. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 14:23:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:23:08 -0400 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <2A29BF3C-3A34-4003-8A5F-1AF1CF275AA9@neurotica.com> On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Tim Riker wrote: > So I'm watching old Stargate SG-1 episodes getting ready for the > upcoming movies, and in a scene from Season 2 episode 20 titled "Show > and Tell" I find: > > http://rikers.org/tmp/sg1hp.jpg > > Guess it's apparent why dialing the gate takes so long. They have not > upgraded the computers since the 70s. Looks like an HP-2112 or 2113 to > me. The hard drive below it is newer than my HP-7901 drives. I'm > guessing HP-7905 or HP-7906. > > Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? There was one early episode of SG-1 in which an RL01/RL02 disk pack, painted gray, was fastened to a wall and used as a door opener. One would pull the handle down and back up, and the door would open. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 14:30:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:30:52 -0400 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <2A29BF3C-3A34-4003-8A5F-1AF1CF275AA9@neurotica.com> References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> <2A29BF3C-3A34-4003-8A5F-1AF1CF275AA9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46CC8EEC.9010105@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Tim Riker wrote: >> So I'm watching old Stargate SG-1 episodes getting ready for the >> upcoming movies, and in a scene from Season 2 episode 20 titled "Show >> and Tell" I find: >> >> http://rikers.org/tmp/sg1hp.jpg >> >> Guess it's apparent why dialing the gate takes so long. They have not >> upgraded the computers since the 70s. Looks like an HP-2112 or 2113 to >> me. The hard drive below it is newer than my HP-7901 drives. I'm >> guessing HP-7905 or HP-7906. >> >> Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? > > There was one early episode of SG-1 in which an RL01/RL02 disk pack, > painted gray, was fastened to a wall and used as a door opener. One > would pull the handle down and back up, and the door would open. Obviously there's a geek on that production staff somewhere. I wonder if it would be possible to find out who. Peace... Sridhar From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Aug 22 14:55:22 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:55:22 -0500 Subject: Tube or not Tube In-Reply-To: <200708221502.l7MF24Bh066816@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708221502.l7MF24Bh066816@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:02 -0500 8/22/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the >high voltage first (in both the terminal, and whatever >you're stealing a tube from!). To do this, attach a >length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade >screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the >terminal/whatever. ...via a high-voltage, mega-ohm resistor. Part of the reason for discharging the thing is to prevent lots of electrons moving anywhere too fast. Better they should go to ground too fast than through you too fast, but you'll bounce ground all over the machine that way, which could be tough on other parts of the electronics. The resistor makes it all happen slower. You probably miss out on hearing the "crack" that way, but it still is better. Love the subject line - another shakespeare fan surfaces... -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 22 15:05:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:05:42 -0700 Subject: Closet cleaning - stuff available In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <46CC34A6.20342.51996A1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2007 at 14:54, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Clarification < the second DLT drive is a DLT4000 which is 20mb/40mb, not > 35mb/70mb. Sorry about that. I know what you mean, but shouldn't that be GB not MB? ;) Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Wed Aug 22 15:10:59 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:10:59 +0100 Subject: Free books In-Reply-To: <279507.84974.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <279507.84974.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 22 Aug 2007, at 15:09, Chris M wrote: > > if you can spare the time, and it doesn't take a huge > amount, *scan* such material with a digital camera (of > any mpix rating). Someone will be looking for it > eventually. I've had stuff like that, and hated > tossing it. Although I can't say I've had the experience, "scanning" hundreds of pages with a digital camera sounds somewhat demanding & time- consuming for someone who is demonstrating their interest in the material by throwing it away!! Lots of decent "multifuction" inkjet printers these days have a page- feeder and can be left scanning to produce a big series of .tiff files or a pdf or whatever. In finding a scanning-printer that has this feature the emphasis is on *decent* - you'd probably pay ?200 (or I guess maybe $300??) for a Canon or HP with a page-feeder. I can imagine that many folks on this list prefer to buy laser-printers or their scanners as separate units, but nevertheless inkjets are much more suitable for photographic oputput, and the wife will find an MFC more convenient for photocopying her recipes / knitting patterns / $other_chauvinist_stereotype - the high-end models with sheet-feeders are the ones that folks like us will buy if resorting to an inkjet MFC. I'd have thought that one of these would produce MUCH better output than a digital camera, so if anyone does have manuals to dispose of that they'd like to rip first then I'd suggest finding an acquaintance who already has such a printer. Book-bound manuals may need slicing apart with a stanley knife, spiral-bound manuals may be easier to open apart, but this will surely not take long and is the most labour-intensive part of the operation if you have a proper sheet-feed scanner. Stroller. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 22 15:12:00 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 16:12:00 -0400 Subject: Closet cleaning - stuff available In-Reply-To: <46CC34A6.20342.51996A1E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Yes indeed it should be. I always got my m's and g's mixed-up as a kid :-) On 8/22/07 4:05 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 22 Aug 2007 at 14:54, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> Clarification < the second DLT drive is a DLT4000 which is 20mb/40mb, not >> 35mb/70mb. Sorry about that. > > I know what you mean, but shouldn't that be GB not MB? ;) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 22 15:09:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:09:40 +0100 Subject: HM5026 DRAM pinout In-Reply-To: <46CC3BC9.6020003@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46CC3BC9.6020003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46CC9804.5060602@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone happen to have a pinout for this beastie? Helps if I don't make typos in the part number, doesn't it? I meant HM50256. I *think* it's pin-compatible with the 41256 (which I do have data for), but it'd be nice to know for sure. From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Aug 22 15:24:55 2007 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:24:55 -0600 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <2A29BF3C-3A34-4003-8A5F-1AF1CF275AA9@neurotica.com> References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> <2A29BF3C-3A34-4003-8A5F-1AF1CF275AA9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46CC9B97.7040900@Rikers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > There was one early episode of SG-1 in which an RL01/RL02 disk pack, > painted gray, was fastened to a wall and used as a door opener. One > would pull the handle down and back up, and the door would open. I'd be interested to know the episode. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Aug 22 15:33:42 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:33:42 -0700 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6843@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Obviously there's a geek on that production staff somewhere. I wonder if it would be possible to find out who. Peace... Sridhar -------------- Well... maybe. Far more likely that it is part of the warehouse stock that most studios keep. For longer than I can remember, they have set people who go around to the auctions and buy up anything that looks like it might fit in a movie. I've run into them at flea markets and some of the scrap yards. I've been told by one of them, that there are literally warehouses full of stuff that looks "sci-fi-ish" - ie, blinking lights. I know of at least two large CDC sites that were bought at auction just for the tapes and consoles. Of course, they then add a lot of lights and install the flash and smoke bombs for the inevitable "computer goes insane and explodes" clich?. One of their current sources of baubles is: http://www.apexelectronic.com/ Billy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 22 15:50:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:50:55 -0600 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6843@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6843@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46CCA1AF.90109@jetnet.ab.ca> Billy Pettit wrote: > Of course, they then add a lot of lights and install the flash and smoke > bombs for the inevitable "computer goes insane and explodes" clich?. One of > their current sources of baubles is: http://www.apexelectronic.com/ I love the LOT photos. :) That relay board is a good deal if you want to build a relay puter. > Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Aug 22 15:49:48 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:49:48 -0700 Subject: HM5026 DRAM pinout Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6845@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson wrote: Nothing too exciting - but getting bounced around parts suppliers when Googling for a pinout is starting to drive me insane :-] ta J. ------------------------------ It IS extremely annoying and frustrating! I really don't give a damn what they have stock. Wish there was a way to disable them and get to the one or two sites with the pinouts. And who don't want to sell you a $100/year membership. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 22 15:59:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:59:53 -0700 Subject: HM5026 DRAM pinout In-Reply-To: <46CC9804.5060602@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46CC3BC9.6020003@yahoo.co.uk>, <46CC9804.5060602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46CC4159.31941.51CB04F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2007 at 21:09, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Anyone happen to have a pinout for this beastie? > > Helps if I don't make typos in the part number, doesn't it? > > I meant HM50256. I *think* it's pin-compatible with the 41256 (which I do have > data for), but it'd be nice to know for sure. NTE seems to think it's a generic 256x1 DRAM, gives the equivalent as NTE21256. http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/nte/NTE21256.pdf Will this do for you? Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 22 16:16:41 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 - relay boards In-Reply-To: <46CCA1AF.90109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <629637.48925.qm@web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> woodelf wrote: Billy Pettit wrote: > Of course, they then add a lot of lights and install the flash and smoke > bombs for the inevitable "computer goes insane and explodes" clich?. One of > their current sources of baubles is: http://www.apexelectronic.com/ I love the LOT photos. :) That relay board is a good deal if you want to build a relay puter. They really are a good deal, I bought 10 of the boards. The relays are easy to get off with a heat gun, the pins are not bent over. Bob From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 22 16:21:52 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:21:52 -0400 Subject: Closet cleaning - stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708221721.52426.pat@computer-refuge.org> > > * Compaq DLT-III 5/10gb drive in external case. Working. > > * Compaq DLT-IV 35/70gb drive in external case. Working. > Clarification ? the second DLT drive is a DLT4000 which is 20mb/40mb, > not 35mb/70mb. Sorry about that. There isn't really a DLT-III or DLT-IV drive. DLT2000 drives use DLT-III or DLT-IIIXT cartridges, for 10/20 or 15/30GB, respectively. DLT4000, DLT7000, DLT8000, DLT-1, and a few others, use DLT-IV carts, and can do 20/40GB, 35/70GB, or 40/80GB on a cart, depending on the drive. >From what I've seen, DLT7000 drives that do 35GB native are a LOT more reliable than DLT8000s that do 40GB native on the same cart. The DLT8000s seem to have heads that wear out a lot quicker, and generally aren't worth the price premium for an extra 14% of capacity. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Aug 22 16:45:51 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:45:51 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6849@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Arno Kletzander wrote: Hello Listers, last week I acquired what seems to be a Tektronix 4002 terminal - at least that's what a sticker on the rear of the base says. The front bezel with the type designation was nowhere to be found - apart from that, the unit looks just like the one at http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/tek4002a.html Thanks in advance, yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander ---------------------------------------- Hey - Great site. Thanks for the reference. I especially like the scans of old instruction cards, one of my favorite pieces of collectable history. Billy http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/instr_ref_cards.html From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 19 16:29:07 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:29:07 +0100 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <46C858D1.4060304@e-bbes.com> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> <46C858D1.4060304@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1187558947.19564.1.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-08-19 at 08:50 -0600, e.stiebler wrote: > Ade Vickers wrote: > > Hi guys... > > > > I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work. > > Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid > > media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message. > Same here. Pretty much all of the 3.5" don't work reliably anymore. > But 9-tracks from the 70's are fine, 8" and 5.25" floppies are fine. > Just plain weird. I have 3.5" disks for my Ensoniq Mirage sampler that are well over 20 years old. They work just fine. I have brand new 3.5" disks that I bought for writing firmware update images into. They last about three uses. Gordon From trasz at FreeBSD.org Mon Aug 20 04:43:17 2007 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:43:17 +0200 Subject: Repairing LA50. Message-ID: <20070820094316.GA19389@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> I've got an LA50-RB printer I'd like to get to work. After powering on the "Power" light goes on, then, after about two seconds, "Fault" light starts flashing. Printer produces no audible sounds, nothing moves. Any idea where to start? -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From Lan.P.Nguyen at aero.org Tue Aug 21 16:41:44 2007 From: Lan.P.Nguyen at aero.org (Lan P Nguyen) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:41:44 -0700 Subject: finds from TRW Swapmeet (AKA Northrup Grumman swap meet) today Message-ID: <46CB5C18.7080600@aero.org> Hi Jim, I ran across your email on the web this morning. If you still have the RH32 board and if you're willing to resale it, please let me know. I'm working on a project and need to create a program to run on TRW RH32 computer. However, I can not find or buy one anymore (: Thank you, Lan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 22 01:18:33 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:18:33 +0100 Subject: Tube or not Tube Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023182@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> ... And now for somthing completely different.. As many of you know my main interest is DEC equipment. As with most electronics its the parts that are under the most stress that fail. I am starting to accumulate a pile of DEC VT series terminals with low out put picture tubes and failed Line Output Transformers. Before doing anything drastic it crossed my mind that somebody at some may have changed the tube in a DEC terminal. There are two issues with this one. a) Where do you get the replacement tube from. b) How do you fit it. If anybody has tried it I would be pleased to hear how they got on. Rod Smallwood The DecCollector From exchangeguru at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 01:41:58 2007 From: exchangeguru at hotmail.com (Exchange Guru) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:41:58 -0400 Subject: more found boards Message-ID: Hi, I'm writing in respnse to a post you made on http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2006-August/066119.html The SPOT card that you have is an interface card for a Scantak-2c Single pass 24 bit Flatbed Color Scanner that was designred for windows 95. The card wonlt do you much good without the scanner, as I'm pretty sure it's a proproetary interface. I hope you find this helpful. _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From gratteri at alice.it Wed Aug 22 03:36:39 2007 From: gratteri at alice.it (Daniele Gratteri) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:36:39 +0200 Subject: Amiga CATS developer CD 1.0 Message-ID: <46CBF597.8090500@alice.it> Hello, excuse me for this e-mail, but some years ago I had downloaded the CD image you provided of the item in subject. Now for an accident I deleted the files and would like to have them again but the link, after about five years, disappeared :( http://archive.netbsd.se/?ml=cctech&a=2003-04&m=157390 Do you happen to still have these files? Thanks! -- ___ __ / __|___ Daniele Gratteri, Italian Commodore-Amiga user... /// | / |__/ Nickname: FIAT1100D - ICQ: 53943994 Ritmo S75 __ /// | \__|__\ Home page: http://www.gratteri.tk forever! \\\/// \___| E-MAIL: daniele at gratteri.tk ...since 1990 \/// From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 22 03:50:08 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:50:08 +0100 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730708212107r44fa2578pa287fd789b56c6db@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730708212134i29436c85kf1d05241effebc65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1187772609.23089.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 21:47 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > SIMH can't be used for VAX emulation in a non-Hobbyist setting > legally. That probably depends where you are. A bone of contention with certain Linux distributions is their lack of MP3 support, which is left out simply because the US allows software patents and is a very litigious country. I wouldn't be surprised if it was perfectly legal to use Simh outside the US in a commercial environment. The licences may say otherwise, but not be legally valid. Gordon From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Wed Aug 22 09:00:35 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:00:35 +0100 Subject: A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <20070822143156.X99503@plum.flirble.org> References: <1187772609.23089.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <20070822143156.X99503@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <200708221500.35838.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Wednesday 22 August 2007 14:38:41 Andrew Back wrote: > In any case simh has no base license and if you transfered one from a real > microvax you'd be lying. I suspect with Charon SRI have got HP to issue > base licenses to go with their soft-VAXen. Ah righty, so the base licence is licenced to the machine, and anything else is licenced to the user? You do kind of have to wonder how much it costs HP to keep running this licensing scheme... Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 22 11:17:52 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:17:52 +0100 Subject: Tube or not Tube Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902318B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks Ian All points noted. As somebody who worked for four years in a high voltage test lab I agree re precautions. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: 22 August 2007 11:40 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Tube or not Tube > Before doing anything drastic it crossed my mind that somebody at some > may have changed the tube in a DEC terminal. > There are two issues with this one. > > a) Where do you get the replacement tube from. Typically, from something else. Like other terminals, 12" monochrome PC monitors, and portable black and white television sets. A lot of these tubes are interchangeable. I've run across some that aren't, but for the most part, with black and white tubes, if the base fits, the neck and deflection angle is the same, and the heater is the same voltage, it's a good chance it will work. > b) How do you fit it. #include Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the high voltage first (in both the terminal, and whatever you're stealing a tube from!). To do this, attach a length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the terminal/whatever. Hold the insulated plastic handle of the screwdriver and slide it under the rubber suction cup of the picture tube, until you feel the metal clip inside. Typically, this will be accompanied by a *CRACK* as the high voltage discharges. (Although, it is possible that the HV dissapated earlier, depends on the terminal) Do this twice just to be sure. To remove the clip, peel up the rubber suction cup, and you'll see it's a hooked clip that fits into a hole in the tube. Squeeze the clip together and gently remove it. Obviously, you'll want to disconnect the other wires leading to the tube - the base socket, and the yoke connector. Disconnect the yoke at the board, and leave it on the tube as you remove it. Unbolt the tube from the frame, and pull it out, careful not to break the neck. Also watch out for ground leads. The new tube needs to physically fit and mount in the terminal. There are two basic types of picture tube - the tubes with ears that bolt to something, and the tubes without ears, that use a metal ring to hold them to whatever. (VT100's have ears, VT220's don't). Your replacement tube must be of the same type in order to fit. The yoke needs to stay with the terminal. This is the copper coil thing on the back of the tube. Loosen the screws that clamp it to the neck of the tube and carefully remove it. Remember what way is up. You'll need to move this to your new tube. Try to get it on straight - it controls deflection, and if it's on crooked, the picture will be crooked. It's easy to adjust later though. Reassemble terminal with new tube. Cross your fingers and hit the switch. If it works, adjust your yoke for a level picture (carefully, you don't want to zap yourself). Once the yoke is level, shut the terminal off and tighten the yoke so it won't move. > If anybody has tried it I would be pleased to hear how they got on. I have replaced the tubes in a couple things, and had pretty good luck. I replaced the tube in a VT100 with one from a PC monochrome monitor, and it works well. One time, I even swapped a worn out IBM monitor tube back into a television. It was the only TV ever with WordPerfect screen burn. And those long persistance phosphors make TV look really weird. I kept it around as a joke for a while - I said that it was a black and white TV I converted to color. (Green is a color). -Ian * Be careful messing with high voltage stuff! Keep one hand behind your back when discharging tubes, and be sure your discharge tool is properly grounded to the metal chassis of the device. There's several kV potentially stored in there. I don't believe there's enough in a terminal to kill you, but it'll hurt like hell. Best to be as careful as you can. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 16:18:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:18:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <11905.57440.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 21, 7 03:17:20 pm Message-ID: > > nifty. http://www.sieler.com/hp250/. I'm afraid to ask > what one would find inside the beast in the way of > logic. I'm sure Tony Duell wouldn't know, so don't ask > him. Tee hee In which case I won't tell you that the main CPU seems to be one of those HP BPC hybrid modules, similar to that used in the 9825, for example. I'll also not tell you that there's a fair amount of documention, including what seems to be a complete set of engineering drawings on the Australian museum site, http://www.hpmuseum.net -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 16:23:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:23:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gooey rollers again. In-Reply-To: <46CBC43F.7070403@sbcglobal.net> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Aug 21, 7 10:06:07 pm Message-ID: > > I picked up a nice Decision Data model 8010 keypunch machine through > govliquidation. > It looks to be in good shape EXCEPT some rollers have turned to goo. > They act just > like peanut butter, looks like it too. These are not simple round > rollers but are tapered, > and there are 16 of them in a complex arrangement. Any ideas on how to > fix them? > I guess I'm going to have to find some suitable plastic and turn them on > a lathe. Probably > beyond my ability. Turning flixible materials is not easy, the darn stuff tends to distort and not end up the size or shape you expect. I've heard that cooling it to dry ice temperature helps. Liquid nitrogen is too cold, the stuff then behaves like glass and just shatters. Another posibility would be to make a mould and cast new parts using one of the 2-part synthetic elastomers. The name 'Devcon' seems to ring a bell for this, maybe a google search will find something. There's a book entitled something like 'How to cast small metal and rubber parts' that covers this, it's aimed at the classic car restoration gugs, but the principles should be the same :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 16:38:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:38:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tube or not Tube In-Reply-To: <243020.21540.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Aug 22, 7 03:39:49 am Message-ID: > > > > Before doing anything drastic it crossed my mind > > that somebody at some > > may have changed the tube in a DEC terminal. > > There are two issues with this one. > > > > a) Where do you get the replacement tube from. > > Typically, from something else. Like other terminals, > 12" monochrome PC monitors, and portable black and > white television sets. A lot of these tubes are Yes. It's almost impossible to get a 'bare' CRT, since often replacing a CRT is regarded as uneconomic, so nobody stocks the spares. I know that when I needed a CRT from a Volker-Craig terminal, I bought a cheap monochrome TV and raided it for the CRT. > interchangeable. I've run across some that aren't, but > for the most part, with black and white tubes, if the > base fits, the neck and deflection angle is the same, > and the heater is the same voltage, it's a good chance > it will work. There are baspically 2 types of mono CRT. Thick necks with a B8H base and a 6.3V heater and thin neckes with a modifed B7G base and an 11.5V heater. Almost all mono monitor and termial CRTs have a 90 degree deflection angle. > > b) How do you fit it. > > #include > > Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the > high voltage first (in both the terminal, and whatever > you're stealing a tube from!). To do this, attach a > length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade > screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the > terminal/whatever. Hold the insulated plastic handle I would recoemnd against this method. When the contact is made, the peak current can be quite high. High enough to damage the connation between the anode cap and the anode coating inside the CRT. And since that current will flwo where it feels like, it can, if you're not careful, damage semiconductors all aover the chassis. What I do is use my EHT meter. It has a resistance of 800MOhms, and is desigend to handle up to 50kV. Connect the ground lead of the meter to the CRT earth (the metal contacts that touch the outer aquadag coating), and put the probe under the anode cap. Hold it there for a minute or so and the CRT will be discharged > of the screwdriver and slide it under the rubber > suction cup of the picture tube, until you feel the > metal clip inside. Typically, this will be accompanied > by a *CRACK* as the high voltage discharges. > (Although, it is possible that the HV dissapated > earlier, depends on the terminal) Do this twice just > to be sure. > > To remove the clip, peel up the rubber suction cup, > and you'll see it's a hooked clip that fits into a > hole in the tube. Squeeze the clip together and gently > remove it. Normally, once you've freed the edgesof the cape from the CRT glass, you can move the whole thing over to compress one side of the contact and release the other. This avoids having to touch the high voltage terminal (even though it should be discharged.) [...] > yourself). Once the yoke is level, shut the terminal > off and tighten the yoke so it won't move. But not too tight. You don't want to crack the new CRT... The old rule (not to be taken seriously, of course) was to tighten the clamp until the CRT implodes, then back off a quarter of a turn ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 17:01:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:01:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT240 terminal Message-ID: I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E-bay and know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). Perhaps somebody can enlightent me 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour monitor with my base unit? 2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), current loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a printer port, also RS232. A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 will work here (yes?). A BNC which seems ot be composite mono video. And a DA15 plug, also for a monitor. I assume a VR201 links here, or a V241 with the right cable. Also, can I connect the keybaord to, say, the back of the VR201, or do I have to use the RJ11 on the terminal itself? 3) How much is known about the insides? Of course I've taken it apart. It's really easy to get inside, just undo 2 screws on the bottom at the very front and remove the top cabinet shell (lift it up from the front). Then release 2 nylatch fasteners and lift up the metal screening cover. The PSU (a switch-mode unit) is inside the cover. Reach inside and unlug the PSU ribbon cable from the mainboard and remove the cover/PSU. The mainboard comes out by releasing 3 more nylatch fasteners. On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- along with what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card, there are a couple of PALs, I've not checked to see if they're the same as the ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And another 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to me. Is it? -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 22 17:34:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:34:24 +0100 Subject: HM5026 DRAM pinout In-Reply-To: <46CC4159.31941.51CB04F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46CC3BC9.6020003@yahoo.co.uk>, <46CC9804.5060602@yahoo.co.uk> <46CC4159.31941.51CB04F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46CCB9F0.3030802@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Aug 2007 at 21:09, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Anyone happen to have a pinout for this beastie? >> Helps if I don't make typos in the part number, doesn't it? >> >> I meant HM50256. I *think* it's pin-compatible with the 41256 (which I do have >> data for), but it'd be nice to know for sure. > > NTE seems to think it's a generic 256x1 DRAM, gives the equivalent as > NTE21256. > > http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/nte/NTE21256.pdf > > Will this do for you? Yep, that'll do nicely - thanks :-) Helps a lot actually; the circuitry I was tracing looked pretty strange but it becomes a lot clearer given the documentation on how to actually access the memory ICs... cheers Jules From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 17:40:00 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:40:00 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening In-Reply-To: <46CC7BF2.7010305@jnt.me.uk> References: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <575131af0708221053g52db7cberf6eafbd54cf4ba88@mail.gmail.com> <46CC7BF2.7010305@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: On 8/22/07, Julian wrote: > > >> How about "come to the pub and natter". > >> > >> I propose the evening of Thursday the 6th of September, at whatever > >> venue the London Perl Mongers choose for their social to be held on that > >> day. It will be announced here: > >> http://london.pm.org/meetings/ > >> > >> Sure, it's not convenient for non-Londoners, but it's a start. > >> > Any of the North West list members fancy meeting up in / around > Manchester then? I could be tempted. Could be more so if it migrated towards Leeds a bit ;) I know we have a Yorkshire cluster of cctalk'ers... From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 22 18:10:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:10:10 -0600 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:01:20 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > monitor with my base unit? Doubtful. The electronics for color cost significantly more than the electronics for grayscale. > 3) How much is known about the insides? Of course I've taken it apart. > It's really easy to get inside, just undo 2 screws on the bottom at the > very front and remove the top cabinet shell (lift it up from the front). > Then release 2 nylatch fasteners and lift up the metal screening cover. > The PSU (a switch-mode unit) is inside the cover. Reach inside and unlug > the PSU ribbon cable from the mainboard and remove the cover/PSU. The > mainboard comes out by releasing 3 more nylatch fasteners. > > On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, > maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- along with > what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card, there > are a couple of PALs, I've not checked to see if they're the same as the > ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And another > 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to me. Is > it? Apart from what's on bitsavers/manx (if there is anything), I don't know anything about it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 22 18:42:21 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:42:21 -0600 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46CCC9DD.30302@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > monitor with my base unit? As far I know it, all of them were color capable. Just the monitor & cable was different. > 3) How much is known about the insides? Of course I've taken it apart. > It's really easy to get inside, just undo 2 screws on the bottom at the > very front and remove the top cabinet shell (lift it up from the front). > Then release 2 nylatch fasteners and lift up the metal screening cover. > The PSU (a switch-mode unit) is inside the cover. Reach inside and unlug > the PSU ribbon cable from the mainboard and remove the cover/PSU. The > mainboard comes out by releasing 3 more nylatch fasteners. Also a space & connector for a modem option. > On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, > maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- along with > what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card, there > are a couple of PALs, I've not checked to see if they're the same as the > ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And another > 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to me. Is > it? Should be a T11 From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Aug 22 18:49:46 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 00:49:46 +0100 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006701c7e517$1fbc9690$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E-bay > and > know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). > Perhaps somebody can enlightent me There's a pocket service guide on Manx (along with a few owner's manuals). > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is > the colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a > colour > monitor with my base unit? I believe I was told so by someone back at DEC. But I never got close enough to one to be able to tell. > > 2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), > current > loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a > printer port, also RS232. A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 > will > work here (yes?). I _think_ all the VT2xx terminals shared common keyboards. > A BNC which seems ot be composite mono video. And a > DA15 plug, also for a monitor. I assume a VR201 links here, or a V241 > with the right cable. Also, can I connect the keybaord to, say, the > back > of the VR201, or do I have to use the RJ11 on the terminal itself? > > 3) How much is known about the insides? Of course I've taken it apart. > On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, > maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- along > with > what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card, > there Sounds likely. > are a couple of PALs, I've not checked to see if they're the same as > the > ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And > another 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying > 'processor' to me. Is > it? The DEC 1987 Semiconductor Databook just leaped off the shelf to mention "DCT11" in my ear (Manx has a manual for the T11). Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.1/965 - Release Date: 21/08/2007 16:02 From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 22 18:55:04 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:55:04 -0400 Subject: Closet cleaning - stuff available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 20gb/40gb DLT drive has been spoken for. Thanks! On 8/22/07 4:12 PM, "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Yes indeed it should be. I always got my m's and g's mixed-up as a kid :-) > > > On 8/22/07 4:05 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> On 22 Aug 2007 at 14:54, Richard A. Cini wrote: >> >>> Clarification < the second DLT drive is a DLT4000 which is 20mb/40mb, not >>> 35mb/70mb. Sorry about that. >> >> I know what you mean, but shouldn't that be GB not MB? ;) >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> >> > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 22 19:13:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:13:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <46CBE9D4.8050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <172797.48436.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> woodelf wrote: >Tim Riker wrote: > > Anyone see any other vintage computers on > >the set? > You are very lucky to find any computers really > other than > some sort of military command center and > even then it is > mostly some sort of control console in most > Si-Fi. > I think EGYPT not HP with SG-1, and that I > would expect > to cover most Alien/UFO/Space type Si-Fi. > ** COMPUTERS ** are a EARTH ONLY item. > Ben > PS. Star Trek/2001/Martian successor Nadesico > are the only ones I can think of that have computers > as a major components in the si-fi that I have seen > and the A.I. always goes insane. Lol. Martian Successor Nadesico doesn't count as it's anime (Japanese cartoon), a modern one at that. > 'Lost in Space' has a classic computer console but I > have > never seen it on T.V. except for one really bad > episode. > I think this covers Si-Fi and computer use; that must > be > the only HP shot ever used. Lost In Space (60's Tv series) has a whole bunch of old computers featured in the first couple of episodes (B&W ones too!) before they leave earth. The Jupiter 2 (the Robinsons space ship in LIS) has various consoles (blinking lights etc.) on the "upper deck" and the "lower deck" is mainly their sleeping quarters. I'm sure that they feature some mag tape units in one, or possibly both, of the decks. I think Time Tunnel features more old computers than Lost In Space, atleast in the HQ anyway. (Yes, I am a fan of Irwin Allens and have seen pretty much all his TV shows, but that's OT so I'll say no more). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Aug 22 19:25:06 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:25:06 -0700 Subject: IBM 3270 In-Reply-To: <23890.87378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <23890.87378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CCD3E2.2080702@msm.umr.edu> Chris M wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Vintage-1981-IBM-<160148944781> >is the only thing that distinguishes this unit from a >vanilla 5150 a card that allows it to network with a mainframe? > > There was a different set of hardware for this system. It also ran software which I think IBM called Info Window, and had a special graphics card in it. This guy looks liike he was using it like an XT but there was a lot of info window stuff if you actually used it in an ibm environment. I think that the same software protocol was used by IBM for POS systems, and other custom terminal applications. Recall that the IBM PC was a project of the terminals division of IBM. As such this is about the only example of a terminal division product which actually used it as a terminal, rather than adding the 3270 card in and running a program to get to the mainframe. I don't actually count that as a terminal division product as much as a product of the PC people. The other usage that was unique was the VM XT and VM/AT systems, which were from the systems people. Same people who also did the PC-390 and PC-370 later, much to the chagrin of the systems people. It all gets into the long sordid tale about how IBM "blew" the PC which doesnt need to be rehashed here. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 22 19:37:32 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:37:32 -0700 Subject: Datapoint DOS.C floppy images Message-ID: <46CCD6CC.20909@bitsavers.org> The first of a few dozen images from floppies Jack Rubin sent me to read are up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Datapoint/floppyImages/dos.c/ Now, I guess I have to figure out how files are stored on dos.c floppies. From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 22 19:53:52 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:53:52 -0400 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 References: <46CBDB8D.2010700@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000501c7e520$14396b50$0100a8c0@screamer> I thought everyone knew that the O/S at Stargate command was HP-IPL/OS running on 2113's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "'General Discussion : On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:45 AM Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 > So I'm watching old Stargate SG-1 episodes getting ready for the > upcoming movies, and in a scene from Season 2 episode 20 titled "Show > and Tell" I find: > > http://rikers.org/tmp/sg1hp.jpg > > Guess it's apparent why dialing the gate takes so long. They have not > upgraded the computers since the 70s. Looks like an HP-2112 or 2113 to > me. The hard drive below it is newer than my HP-7901 drives. I'm > guessing HP-7905 or HP-7906. > > Anyone see any other vintage computers on the set? > -- > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 20:04:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:04:24 -0400 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E- > bay and > know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). > Perhaps > somebody can enlightent me The VT240 is a nice terminal. Good score! > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 > is the > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > monitor with my base unit? Yes, the only difference is the monitor. > 2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), > current > loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a > printer port, also RS232. A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 > will > work here (yes?). Yes, LK201. I've also used LK401s. > A BNC which seems ot be composite mono video. And a > DA15 plug, also for a monitor. I assume a VR201 links here, or a V241 > with the right cable. Yup. > Also, can I connect the keybaord to, say, the back > of the VR201, or do I have to use the RJ11 on the terminal itself? I don't recall if that works or not...it's easy enough to try, though. > On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, > maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- > along with > what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card, > there > are a couple of PALs, I've not checked to see if they're the same > as the > ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And > another > 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to > me. Is > it? DC310 is the part number for the T11, isn't it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 20:14:30 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:14:30 -0500 Subject: Free books In-Reply-To: References: <279507.84974.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708221814r42ff3720l18d94ab9e9e0187e@mail.gmail.com> On 8/22/07, Stroller wrote: > > On 22 Aug 2007, at 15:09, Chris M wrote: > > > > if you can spare the time, and it doesn't take a huge > > amount, *scan* such material with a digital camera (of > > any mpix rating). Someone will be looking for it > > eventually. I've had stuff like that, and hated > > tossing it. Um, yeah....manually scanning (or even carefully cutting out pages to be auto-scanned) hundreds of pages of dBase II text == zzzzzzzzzzzzzz From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 22 20:14:35 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:14:35 -0700 Subject: Re; A VAX you don't see every day.... Message-ID: <2fb83b0e63fff47a287b10837f79744d@valleyimplants.com> > You do kind of have to wonder how much it costs HP to keep running this > licensing scheme... Well, AFAIK the only O/Ses still working on a per-user fee scale are the DEC derived systems (OpenVMS and Tru64), SCO, and Microsoft. Everyone else (including HP for HP-UX) went over to unlimited user licensing in the late '90s. Being a hobbyist, I've never had occasion to poke around in commercial VMS licensing. Do they still enforce the machine restrictions (i.e. machine X is a "workstation" so it can only host up to 2 users, period, another machine with the exact same VUPS rating is a "departmental timeshare" that can host up to N users (with the proper licenses) . . .) From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Aug 22 20:55:49 2007 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:55:49 +1000 Subject: Re; A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <2fb83b0e63fff47a287b10837f79744d@valleyimplants.com> References: <2fb83b0e63fff47a287b10837f79744d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <9478BC1D-9B30-4D50-A36D-87BDB16F7299@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 23/08/2007, at 11:14 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: >> You do kind of have to wonder how much it costs HP to keep running >> this >> licensing scheme... > > Well, AFAIK the only O/Ses still working on a per-user fee scale > are the DEC derived systems (OpenVMS and Tru64), SCO, and Microsoft. > > Everyone else (including HP for HP-UX) went over to unlimited user > licensing in the late '90s. > > Being a hobbyist, I've never had occasion to poke around in > commercial VMS licensing. Do they still enforce the machine > restrictions (i.e. machine X is a "workstation" so it can only host > up to 2 users, period, another machine with the exact same VUPS > rating is a "departmental timeshare" that can host up to N users > (with the proper licenses) . . .) OpenVMS licensing for the new Integrity (aka Itaniam) systems uses a model similar to that used by HP-UX, so there are no per-user restrictions. OpenVMS licensing on VAX and Alpha did not change to use this model. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 22 21:39:26 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re; A VAX you don't see every day.... In-Reply-To: <2fb83b0e63fff47a287b10837f79744d@valleyimplants.com> from Scott Quinn at "Aug 22, 7 06:14:35 pm" Message-ID: <200708230239.l7N2dQQ3016396@floodgap.com> > > You do kind of have to wonder how much it costs HP to keep running this > > licensing scheme... > > Well, AFAIK the only O/Ses still working on a per-user fee scale are > the DEC derived systems (OpenVMS and Tru64), SCO, and Microsoft. ... and Alpha Micro, I think. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Aug 22 22:02:16 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:02:16 -0400 Subject: Tube or not Tube In-Reply-To: <243020.21540.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <243020.21540.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CCF8B8.5050107@hawkmountain.net> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> b) How do you fit it. >> > > #include > > Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the > high voltage first (in both the terminal, and whatever > you're stealing a tube from!). To do this, attach a > length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade > screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the > terminal/whatever. Hold the insulated plastic handle > of the screwdriver and slide it under the rubber > suction cup of the picture tube, until you feel the > metal clip inside. Typically, this will be accompanied > by a *CRACK* as the high voltage discharges. > (Although, it is possible that the HV dissapated > earlier, depends on the terminal) Do this twice just > to be sure. > From working on video games, I too used to use this procedure. However, at least with B&W vector video games, this procedure can (and as I understand it usually will) blow the HV diode which is present in many (all?) B&W HV systems. The process is supposed to be done with a resistor so it bleeds slowly. By memory I think I read somewhere a couple of megohm resistors in series ... but I'd do some searching online on discharging picture tubes. I use an HV probe now that I picked up on eBay some time ago. Not only can I use it to test HV, I can see the voltage as it bleeds to know when it hits zero. -- Curt . . . From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 22 22:26:36 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:26:36 -0700 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <46CC6C36.1070704@bitsavers.org> References: <46CC6C36.1070704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46CCFE6C.3080008@sbcglobal.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > If there's anything that's not on bitsavers, I'll get it to Al. > > I have a big backlog of 250 docs that are scanned but not post processed. > May be different manual revs, though. > > Did you get any distribution floppies? > I got one floppy that has a printed label: Operating System Master "SYSTEM" (unsecured) HP Revision A.03.06 Copyright Matrix Computer Corporation, 1980 Also got some disk with hand written labels (three disks): System 7.0 QWERTY 7.0 Utilities 7.0 Do you want me to get them to you? Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 22 22:56:25 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:56:25 -0700 Subject: HP business computer on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <46CCFE6C.3080008@sbcglobal.net> References: <46CC6C36.1070704@bitsavers.org> <46CCFE6C.3080008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <46CD0569.6060909@sbcglobal.net> Whoops! I meant QUERY 7.0 not qwerty! Bob Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> > If there's anything that's not on bitsavers, I'll get it to Al. >> >> I have a big backlog of 250 docs that are scanned but not post >> processed. >> May be different manual revs, though. >> >> Did you get any distribution floppies? >> > I got one floppy that has a printed label: Operating System Master > "SYSTEM" (unsecured) > HP Revision A.03.06 > Copyright Matrix Computer Corporation, 1980 > > Also got some disk with hand written labels (three disks): > System 7.0 > QWERTY 7.0 > Utilities 7.0 > > Do you want me to get them to you? > > Bob > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 22 23:12:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:12:21 -0600 Subject: Onyx 2 rack for $125 (Reading, PA) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 22 23:13:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:13:47 -0600 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:04:24 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > > monitor with my base unit? > > Yes, the only difference is the monitor. I stand corrected. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 22 23:22:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:22:24 -0600 Subject: Onyx 2 rack for $125 (Reading, PA) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:12:21 -0600. Message-ID: > Just to be clear. Its the whole system and not just the rack enclosure, but it is a rack Onyx and not one of the squat cube Origin style. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Aug 23 04:32:21 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:32:21 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found Message-ID: <20070823093221.176290@gmx.net> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > (...) > After you check out the power supply and reform/replace any bad caps, > and power it on, the screen should slowly turn fully green. Leave it > this way for 5 min. or so before you issue any erase commands (keyboard > or program). This procedure reduces the ion content in the CRT and > maximizes the CRT life. I got this from a Tektronix service manual > for the 611 storage display. It says to do this anytime it's been off > for two weeks or more. I have been following this for 15 years now on my > 611 (built in 1971) and it's still working great. > > Bob Hey, thank you for that useful hint! That's just the kind of stuff I wanted to know. (This one's particularly nasty because I wouldn't even have noticed an ill effect in the beginning, nevertheless harming the equipment...) "John A. Dundas III" wrote: > I used one of those both at JPL and Caltech in the '70s. Worked quite > well. > > I don't have any service information but I did scan the user manual > that I have. Al or others may have other scans or additional > information. For my scan, see: > 1404-00.pdf> > > John Which seems to be down currently (produces a "Server not found" error) and can't even be found archived anywhere due to site policies (robots.txt). Thank you for scanning anyway, I'm looking forward to when it becomes available again - most probably a good resource for starters. Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > When you come over to fetch that uVAX II you can have a go at my Tek > 4014..... > > Jos Dreesen No, I haven't forgotten it...it looks as if we could manage it 22./23.09, but that's not fixed yet (haven't reached our relatives where we'd be staying overnight). So long, -- Arno Kletzander Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Aug 23 05:33:37 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:33:37 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening In-Reply-To: <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070823103337.GA14311@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> I wrote: > How about "come to the pub and natter". > I propose the evening of Thursday the 6th of September, at whatever > venue the London Perl Mongers choose for their social to be held on that > day. It will be announced here: > http://london.pm.org/meetings/ It's going to be at Dirty Dick's, on Bishopsgate, across the road from Liverpool St station: http://dirtydicks.co.uk/ -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age You don't need to spam good porn From julian at jnt.me.uk Thu Aug 23 07:36:16 2007 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:36:16 +0100 Subject: UK retro show evening In-Reply-To: References: <200708140955.50011.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <20070817102303.GA31679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <575131af0708221053g52db7cberf6eafbd54cf4ba88@mail.gmail.com> <46CC7BF2.7010305@jnt.me.uk> Message-ID: <46CD7F40.4040101@jnt.me.uk> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 8/22/07, Julian wrote: > >> Any of the North West list members fancy meeting up in / around >> Manchester then? >> > > I could be tempted. Could be more so if it migrated towards Leeds a > bit ;) I know we have a Yorkshire cluster of cctalk'ers... > > I could easily be persuaded to get on a train, if it's more likely to happen somewhere towards Leeds. Anyone else have any views / preferences? Julian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 08:29:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:29:56 -0400 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7843F562-6304-4C80-BCAA-6C1966F53273@neurotica.com> On Aug 22, 2007, at 7:10 PM, Richard wrote: >> 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 >> is the >> colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a >> colour >> monitor with my base unit? > > Doubtful. The electronics for color cost significantly more than the > electronics for grayscale. But in the case of the VT240, the base unit was designed for color. Definitely a nice feature. The VT240 isn't the fastest terminal comm-wise, but I'll tell ya...it's tough to find a terminal with nicer looking video, in terms of character definition, sharpness (monitor permitting of course), etc. They are a real pleasure to use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 08:50:26 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:50:26 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <1187820108.21719.0.camel@elric> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <1187820108.21719.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <575131af0708230650j3fbdd114h38ebf5b444f51c3a@mail.gmail.com> On 22/08/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:00 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > > I was thus wondering if anyone in England - ideally, around the SE - > > had any spare VAXen they might part with for an impoverished > > fellow-hobbyist? > > If you're not too fussed about England specifically, I have a MicroVAX > 3300 and a couple of VAXStation 3100s going spare. I also know where > you could lay hands on a MicroVAX II. How do you mean? I have to collect it somehow and I don't have a car - I'm a biker. I do have a trike, so wide loads and balance aren't a problem, but we'd have to wrap it weatherproof and strap it on my back seat or luggage rack! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 08:51:28 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:51:28 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <200708221827.l7MIRLRQ010536@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <200708221827.l7MIRLRQ010536@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708230651h64bf8043tf8100068970d2dde@mail.gmail.com> On 22/08/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It now emerges I have an urgent need to polish up my VMS knowledge, > > which is a good excuse. > > > > I was thus wondering if anyone in England - ideally, around the SE - > > had any spare VAXen they might part with for an impoverished > > fellow-hobbyist? > > It is a shame that you didn't ask about this a week or so ago. Check > comp.os.vms for a posting last week by Elliott Roper. He *might* have one > or two systems left, but I think he's pretty much unloaded everything (he > had a lot). He is in Hayfield, which is about 15 miles SE of Manchester. The need only arose as of Tuesday afternoon! That kit looked ideal, but he's posted a follow-on saying it's all gone. Damned shame. I suspect they went to the tip. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Aug 23 10:01:53 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:01:53 -0700 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, I have one also. Pictures can be found at: At 11:01 PM +0100 8/22/07, Tony Duell wrote: >1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the >colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour >monitor with my base unit? Yes. > >2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), current >loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a >printer port, also RS232. A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 will >work here (yes?). Yes, I believe the LK201 was the factory configuration. >A BNC which seems ot be composite mono video. And a >DA15 plug, also for a monitor. I assume a VR201 links here, or a V241 >with the right cable. Yes, see the last picture on my site above. John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 23 10:20:17 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:20:17 -0700 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708230651h64bf8043tf8100068970d2dde@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <200708221827.l7MIRLRQ010536@onyx.spiritone.com> <575131af0708230651h64bf8043tf8100068970d2dde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:51 PM +0100 8/23/07, Liam Proven wrote: >On 22/08/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It is a shame that you didn't ask about this a week or so ago. Check >> comp.os.vms for a posting last week by Elliott Roper. He *might* have one >> or two systems left, but I think he's pretty much unloaded everything (he >> had a lot). He is in Hayfield, which is about 15 miles SE of Manchester. > >The need only arose as of Tuesday afternoon! > >That kit looked ideal, but he's posted a follow-on saying it's all >gone. Damned shame. I suspect they went to the tip. :?( With the possible exception of a few items that were trash (ancient dead Alpha's), along with some monitors no one seemed interested in, everything was rescued. I just wish I'd been in place to rescue the VAXstation 4000/vlc's! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 23 10:22:59 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:22:59 -0700 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708230650j3fbdd114h38ebf5b444f51c3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <1187820108.21719.0.camel@elric> <575131af0708230650j3fbdd114h38ebf5b444f51c3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:50 PM +0100 8/23/07, Liam Proven wrote: > > If you're not too fussed about England specifically, I have a MicroVAX >> 3300 and a couple of VAXStation 3100s going spare. I also know where >> you could lay hands on a MicroVAX II. > >How do you mean? > >I have to collect it somehow and I don't have a car - I'm a biker. I >do have a trike, so wide loads and balance aren't a problem, but we'd >have to wrap it weatherproof and strap it on my back seat or luggage >rack! Unless you can pull some sort of trailer, or have a sidecar (not sure what you mean by trike), I'd really recommend staying away from systems like the MicroVAX 3300, and MicroVAX II. I'd prefer not to hear about you being crushed by a VAX. Hint, they make nice end-tables. VAXstation 3100's could prove interesting, but should be totally doable, plus they'll be easier to get up and running. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 10:47:45 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:47:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <1187820108.21719.0.camel@elric> <575131af0708230650j3fbdd114h38ebf5b444f51c3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708230847l60996c87x7d6bdf7573e9b331@mail.gmail.com> On 23/08/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:50 PM +0100 8/23/07, Liam Proven wrote: > > > If you're not too fussed about England specifically, I have a MicroVAX > >> 3300 and a couple of VAXStation 3100s going spare. I also know where > >> you could lay hands on a MicroVAX II. > > > >How do you mean? > > > >I have to collect it somehow and I don't have a car - I'm a biker. I > >do have a trike, so wide loads and balance aren't a problem, but we'd > >have to wrap it weatherproof and strap it on my back seat or luggage > >rack! > > Unless you can pull some sort of trailer, or have a sidecar (not sure > what you mean by trike), I'd really recommend staying away from > systems like the MicroVAX 3300, and MicroVAX II. I'd prefer not to > hear about you being crushed by a VAX. Hint, they make nice > end-tables. I moved my old MicroVAX home from Horsham in my sidecar. It sat on my then-G/F's lap. Poor girl could hardly walk for the rest of the day. Small, like a pizza-box workstation, but *heavy*. > VAXstation 3100's could prove interesting, but should be totally > doable, plus they'll be easier to get up and running. I can hope... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Aug 23 11:03:59 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:03:59 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23/8/07 16:20, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > With the possible exception of a few items that > were trash (ancient dead Alpha's), along with > some monitors no one seemed interested in, > everything was rescued. > > I just wish I'd been in place to rescue the VAXstation 4000/vlc's! I was lucky enough to get hold of most of it: [Note: pictures are 1024x768 ~ 250KB each] http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen1.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen2.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen3.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen4.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen5.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen6.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen7.jpg http://ozpass.co.uk/files/vaxen/vaxen8.jpg I got all of the VAXstation 4000's and remaining microVAXen but didn't take the VLC's - I didn't realise they were at all popular / useful. Elliott is a super guy, and very interesting too; I'm most grateful to him. What's slightly embarrassing is that I took such a massive haul... Elliott gave the impression that I was the "last chance motel" for the equipment before it went to the tip. I have subsequently found out that there was substantial interest in the equipment and I happened to be first in line! Unfortunately for Liam, all of what you see in the pictures is currently en route to my place in France, but I'll happily bring back one of the MicroVAX 3100-80's for you if you can wait a couple of weeks. My home in the UK is in Mossley, near Stalybridge, East of Manchester. -Austin. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 23 11:35:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:35:46 -0600 Subject: Onyx 2 rack for $125 (Reading, PA) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:22:24 -0600. Message-ID: Looks like noone is biting? They just cut the price in half again. $62.50 now... Silicon Graphics Inc. Onyx 2 Visualization Workstation consisting of: CMN AO15, Visualization Workstation consisting of: CMN AO15, CMN AO16 & CMN AO18 Mainframes with KTOWN, GE16, RM9, DG5-2/GVO, Midplane, ELSC Module Cards and Power Supply. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 23 12:38:45 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gooey rollers again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <535473.43553.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tony Duell wrote:>snip Another posibility would be to make a mould and cast new parts using one of the 2-part synthetic elastomers. The name 'Devcon' seems to ring a bell for this, maybe a google search will find something. There's a book entitled something like 'How to cast small metal and rubber parts' that covers this, it's aimed at the classic car restoration gugs, but the principles should be the same :-) -tony This is a great idea. I have used two part, rubber like, materials in the past. I found I can buy new rollers for $35 each, much too expensive for all 16 needed. I'll probably buy one and try to make a mold from it. I'll post the results. Bob From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu Aug 23 12:48:25 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:48:25 -0500 Subject: What is this board (M8549)? Message-ID: I gott an M8549 Universal Substitute Board off the 'bay recently, but it's not what I was expecting, which was a blank board with lots of places to mount DIPs. The board does have 27 pads for 16-pin DIPS, but also three "DEC10101" and one "DEC10110" chips on it (are those ECL?), many traces on the lower half of the board coming from the Omnibus fingers, and a couple of dozen 0-ohm jumpers. Is there a schematic anywhere? I can't find it on bitsavers... So what exactly did I buy?? -Charles From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 23 13:36:25 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:36:25 -0400 Subject: Radio-Electronics REACTS computer from Ed Roberts Message-ID: All: I had some time today so I started scanning a few random articles I had lying around. Back in 1988, Ed Roberts published a series of articles in Radio-Electronics for a stackable Z80-based industrial-like computer system called REACTS 7000. I seem to have most of the articles but I wondered if anyone on the list maybe has the original design packet you could order from Ed?s company, or any other info on it. As I find these random kind of systems, I?m putting together resource pages on my Web site for them (The Hawthorne 68k and the LittleBoard/186 are recent examples). So, if anyone has any info on this system, let me know. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 14:07:10 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free books In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708221814r42ff3720l18d94ab9e9e0187e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <518200.62478.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> my sis found a page cutter in a dumpster LOL. She gave it to me for nothing. Dumpster diving is kewell :). I managed to slice and dice a textbook in under 5 minutes. Scanning it is yet to be done though. You often have to consider the increased accessibility (and availabilty) of an electronic version of something when contemplating the time needed to transform it into digital info. I don't know, a typical textbook could take 80 hours to consume (by yer head). An extra hour or so of work to make it storable in byts and bytes is well worth it IMHO. --- Jason T wrote: > On 8/22/07, Stroller > wrote: > > > > On 22 Aug 2007, at 15:09, Chris M wrote: > > > > > > if you can spare the time, and it doesn't take a > huge > > > amount, *scan* such material with a digital > camera (of > > > any mpix rating). Someone will be looking for it > > > eventually. I've had stuff like that, and hated > > > tossing it. > > Um, yeah....manually scanning (or even carefully > cutting out pages to > be auto-scanned) hundreds of pages of dBase II text > == zzzzzzzzzzzzzz > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 23 14:11:42 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:11:42 -0700 Subject: What is this board (M8549)? References: Message-ID: <09d101c7e5b9$717c9910$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Charles": > I gott an M8549 Universal Substitute Board off the 'bay recently, > but it's not what I was expecting, which was a blank board with > lots of places to mount DIPs. > > The board does have 27 pads for 16-pin DIPS, but also three > "DEC10101" and one "DEC10110" chips on it (are those ECL?), many > traces on the lower half of the board coming from the Omnibus > fingers, and a couple of dozen 0-ohm jumpers. > > Is there a schematic anywhere? I can't find it on bitsavers... So > what exactly did I buy?? My copy of the modules list identifies it as a KL10 board. The power connections don't seem right for Omnibus either, but I suppose I'd have to check that to be sure. (The date of 12/84 seems way late for an Omnibus card, too.) I have no idea what the sea of jumpers is good for. I bet it could me modified to become a prototype card for your 8/A, though, if no-one needs it for anything else. Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 14:21:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:21:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 22, 7 09:04:24 pm Message-ID: > > On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E- > > bay and > > know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). > > Perhaps > > somebody can enlightent me > > The VT240 is a nice terminal. Good score! I think so too. I am suprised there wasn't more interest in it. It actually appeared on E-bay last week, but I didn't bit becuase I couldn't be sure of being able to meet the seller's deadlines for payment, etc. Nobody bid, so it was relisted with a lower starting bid. Nobody else bid this time either, so I got it for about \pounds 5.00. The seller was a company in north London (behind Ponder's End bus garage, if you know the area), so I collected it in person and avoided the postage charges and possible shipping damage. Got some very odd looks carrying it home on the 'bus, too ;-) [...] > > printer port, also RS232. A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 > > will > > work here (yes?). > > Yes, LK201. I've also used LK401s. I know I don't have any LK401s, but I should be able to turn up an LK201. > > Also, can I connect the keybaord to, say, the back > > of the VR201, or do I have to use the RJ11 on the terminal itself? > > I don't recall if that works or not...it's easy enough to try, > though. Also easy enough to see if the appropraite pins on the DA15 go anywhere useful :-) > > ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And > > another > > 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to > > me. Is > > it? > > DC310 is the part number for the T11, isn't it? Indeed it is, as others have confirmed. I half-thought it was, and then thought that nobody would use a PDP11 CPU in a terminal ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 14:11:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:11:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 22, 7 05:10:10 pm Message-ID: > > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the > > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > > monitor with my base unit? > > Doubtful. The electronics for color cost significantly more than the > electronics for grayscale. Why? Assuming the same number of bits-per-pixel, and the same total number of physical colours available, then almost all the circuitry -- grpahics controller, RAM, CLUT, etc -- would be the same. The only difference would be in the final DAC stage between the output of the CLUT and the monitor. It comes down to, say, a single 8-bit DAC for a greyscale display and 3 separate DACs, say 2 off 3 bit and 1 off 2 bit for colour. I am not convinced the latter is significantly more expesnive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 14:05:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:05:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repairing LA50. In-Reply-To: <20070820094316.GA19389@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> from "Edward Tomasz Napierala" at Aug 20, 7 11:43:17 am Message-ID: > > I've got an LA50-RB printer I'd like to get to work. After powering on > the "Power" light goes on, then, after about two seconds, "Fault" light > starts flashing. Printer produces no audible sounds, nothing moves. > Any idea where to start? Most dot-matrix printers move the head back and forth at power-on, and check that the home sensor is working correctly. The fault light that you're getting could be a result of the carriage not moving at all. First check the carriage can move -- with the printer off, try sliding it along the rails. But I suspect the problem is electrical. The fact that the fault light comes on and blinks suggests to me that the processor circuitry is working correctly. Maybe it;s a motor driver problem. Maybe it's a loss of the motor supply voltage (which will be separate from, and higher, than the 5V logic supply. I think I'd start there. Trace out enough of the circuitry to understand how the motor driver works. THen see if it is getting power, and if it is, check the logic signals going into it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 14:13:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:13:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: <46CCC9DD.30302@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Aug 22, 7 05:42:21 pm Message-ID: > Also a space & connector for a modem option. Ah, so that's what it was for... I noticed the mounting pillars and the header plug, alnog with a removeable plate on the back to allow access to connectors on whatever daughterboard went there. > > ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And another > > 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to me. Is > > it? > Should be a T11 Kersqueeble. I thought the number sounded familiar. And yes, a google search for DCT11 turned up a data sheet which makes a lot of sense. So this thing runs PDP11 code :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 14:39:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:39:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gooey rollers again. In-Reply-To: <535473.43553.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Aug 23, 7 10:38:45 am Message-ID: > This is a great idea. I have used two part, rubber like, materials in > the past. I found I can buy new rollers for $35 each, much too expensive > for all 16 needed. I'll probably buy one and try to make a mold from it. > I'll post the results. I was thinking about mashining a mould from a block of metal and using that. Be warened that, at least over here, those 2-part 'rubbers' are not cheap. I think it was going to cost me over \pounds 100 for the rubber, release agent and primer (the former to get it not to stick to the mould, the latter to get it to stick to the hub or whatever). You are supposed to mix the entire 500g of rubber in one go, after which you have 30 minutes to use it. If it doesn't work, you are supposed to buy a new kit, costing over \pounds 30. I've heard you can weigh out and mix part of the kit, though. But that the shelf-life of the unmixed kit, once opened, is not that long (a couple of weeks?). But long enough to let the mixed part cure overnight, and if it didn't work, to try again. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 14:44:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Radio-Electronics REACTS computer from Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <598418.44548.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> advertise in as many place as possible. I actually found someone who built the RE Robot (80188 based). It took time. Use Usenet groups and such. You'll eventually find someone who has what you're looking for. The artwork for the boards were almost always in the magazines themselves (as I'm sure you know). I actually sent for the 80188 SBC schematics from Gernsback way back, but apparently tossed them. Gernsback did have a BBS back in the day, and was active into the ~mid 90s at least. --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > I had some time today so I started scanning a few > random articles I had > lying around. Back in 1988, Ed Roberts published a > series of articles in > Radio-Electronics for a stackable Z80-based > industrial-like computer system > called REACTS 7000. > > I seem to have most of the articles but I > wondered if anyone on the list > maybe has the original design packet you could order > from Ed?s company, or > any other info on it. As I find these random kind of > systems, I?m putting > together resource pages on my Web site for them (The > Hawthorne 68k and the > LittleBoard/186 are recent examples). So, if anyone > has any info on this > system, let me know. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 14:51:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:51:31 -0400 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C66A8D1-7255-4B00-A1FD-363E9DCB878C@neurotica.com> On Aug 23, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E- >>> bay and >>> know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). >>> Perhaps >>> somebody can enlightent me >> >> The VT240 is a nice terminal. Good score! > > I think so too. I am suprised there wasn't more interest in it. It > actually appeared on E-bay last week, but I didn't bit becuase I > couldn't > be sure of being able to meet the seller's deadlines for payment, etc. > Nobody bid, so it was relisted with a lower starting bid. Nobody > else bid > this time either, so I got it for about \pounds 5.00. I think the reason for the lack of interest is that there are so many of them out there. I've managed to wind up with about eight of them in my closet and I don't even know where they all came from. I'm quite happy to dedicate some closet space to them, though, as spares for the one on my desk! >>> ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And >>> another >>> 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to >>> me. Is >>> it? >> >> DC310 is the part number for the T11, isn't it? > > Indeed it is, as others have confirmed. I half-thought it was, and > then > thought that nobody would use a PDP11 CPU in a terminal ;-) :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 15:06:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ampro SBC's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <779704.82639.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> I have *most* of the manual that came with my little board/pc (or whatever the exact designation was). Mine was not 186 based but rather had an NEC V40. The appearance of the thing seems to differ somewhat from mine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290142565673&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019), and in fact may use an entirely different chipset. But I could send a copy (currently not scanned) if anyone is interested. These things needed a PAL to utilize the SCSI option, and the scsi chip was (presumably) common NCR chip. Does anyone have information on how to burn one of these PALS? Maybe I should try contacting AMPRO... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 15:52:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *workstation* monitors Message-ID: <97822.10935.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I realize that these are the things least likely to get held onto, due to their mass and bulk, but if anyone should happen to have a large screen color or b & w monitor they're looking to get rid of, let me know. The b & w units were somewhat common on top of Macs, and any such thing would be uncommon on a peecee, particularly an early unit (< 48khz horizontal frequency) which is what I would want in the way of a color model. Reasonably good condition, and *reasonably* close to Pennsylhoma/New Jersey. I can't give specific models, but I'd happy to do the research if you can provide a model. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 23 16:01:45 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <97822.10935.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <97822.10935.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708232103.RAA21709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I realize that these are the things least likely to get held onto, > due to their mass and bulk, but if anyone should happen to have a > large screen color or b & w monitor they're looking to get rid of, How large is "large screen"? I've got assorted monitors sitting around and, if one would do for you, wouldn't mind freeing up the space it's occupying. I don't know whether Montreal counts as "reasonably close", though. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 16:06:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:06:43 +0200 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/23/07, Tony Duell wrote: > I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E-bay and > know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). Perhaps > somebody can enlightent me I can try. > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > monitor with my base unit? Yes. You just need the right cable. You can use a VR241, if it's easier to find in the UK, or back in the day, many folks used an NTSC-frequency Barco-brand monitor, of a variety that had four BNCs RGB + Csync). You could probably use an Amiga-friendly monitor as well, as long as it takes composite sync, or if you care to break up composite sync to H and V sync. There's nothing unusual about the VT240 output. I _think_ it might even produce sync-on-green, which may be what the mono output is using. ISTR you tell it in the setup menu (which you enter just like a VT220) that you want the VT240 engine to render in color vs mono. Check a manual - it should be documented. > 2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), current > loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a > printer port, also RS232. I believe it's a printer port, but I am reasonably certain it's not the same pinout as a PC-AT. It should be some DEC pinout. > A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 will > work here (yes?). Yes. > A BNC which seems ot be composite mono video. And a > DA15 plug, also for a monitor. I assume a VR201 links here, or a V241 > with the right cable. Also, can I connect the keybaord to, say, the back > of the VR201, or do I have to use the RJ11 on the terminal itself? I don't recall that part, but I would expect the keyboard to work in either place. I doubt anything will be harmed by trying. Most of the time, DEC was good about that sort of stuff. > 3) How much is known about the insides? Not much, AFAIK. > Of course I've taken it apart. Of course you have ;-) I have as well - I got mine by fixing two dead ones. One had a busted power switch (I replaced it with one off the wall at Radio Shack), the other had bad EIA line drivers and/or receivers. > On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, > maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- along with > what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card... Didn't know that. Make sense, though - that's what the engineers were playing with at the time, so I'm sure somebody borrowed a circuit from across the hall. > another 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to me. Is > it? Hmm... I don't know that one off the top of my head. You already have a processor in there, or else I'd wonder if that was a T-11. Perhaps you have a T-11 in there as well as an 8085. If so, I'd imagine the T-11 was the ReGIS engine, and the 8085 does all the I/O. -ethan From sttaylor at charter.net Thu Aug 23 16:10:12 2007 From: sttaylor at charter.net (Steve Taylor) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:10:12 -0700 Subject: IBM 5294 Controller, IBM 5251 Display Station Model 12 with Keyboard and manual Message-ID: <46CDF7B4.2010601@charter.net> Any interest http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/sys/400141802.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:34:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:34:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Huuuge file extension database Message-ID: <911388.96162.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, While searching for something else (AMOS Jotre extension to play THX files) I stumbled across this page. It seems to be a huge file extension database. It's not all modern stuff (AMOS .ABK extension is there) so it does qualify as retro :) http://www.attingo.com/software.php I don't suppose anyone here has the Jotre extension? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From starbase89 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 17:11:28 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:11:28 -0400 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update Message-ID: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> I have been scrounging for parts for my computer, and I believe I have hit the jackpot. A friend of mine set me up with some older Seiko control system boards, various revisions, from the late 80s. On them are many ICs, including RAMs, Z80 CPUs, and PIOs, as well as some AMD Arithmetic processors, a Z80 SIO/2, and other various components. I want to try to make my computer from these components. Can anyone point me in a good direction for the datasheets, preferably online, for these mostly obsolete ICs? Some of them I don't even know what they are, and some I cannot find online, presumably because they are obsolete. Here's a partial list of them: NEC D780C NEC D770008AC-6 NEC D4364C-15L NEC D8251AC NEC D449C AMD AM9511A-1DC Sharp LH0081A Sharp LH0082 Intel 8339 Intel 8325 Intel K3235001 Zilog Z8442BPS Zilog Z8430BPS Thanks for any help From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 23 17:40:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:40:16 -0600 Subject: DEC switch handles Message-ID: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> How many people need replacement switch handles for DEC switches? How many and what size and colors? I wonder if we can get the quantity needed and have a custom order made in china? Ben alias Woodelf From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 18:55:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:55:08 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> On Aug 23, 2007, at 6:40 PM, woodelf wrote: > How many people need replacement switch handles for DEC switches? > How many and what size and colors? > I wonder if we can get the quantity needed and have a custom order > made in china? Unless we're talking about many thousands of them, we'd probably be better off finding someone with an injection molding machine on this side of the world. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 19:05:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <97822.10935.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <166290.28587.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > I realize that these are the things least likely to > get held onto, Yeah, I have noticed that too. I've been looking for a black and white monitor for a Sun for a long time now. Even the early color monitors are hard to find. With the price of more modern monitors so low, most people seem to have chucked these the first chance they got. I haven't seen ANY fixed frequency monitors in a long time, and not for lack of looking. I remember coming across one monitor a long time ago - I wish I could have gotten it, but it wasn't possible at the time. It was an immensely heavy block of a 20 inch color monitor. Part of the casing had to have been made of cast aluminum, the rest was really, really thick plastic. And the back had exposed TO-3 case transistors mounted to the heat-sink block that made up most of the back. It had BNC inputs and a switch to allow sync on green. It might have been a Hitachi, but I don't remember. It didn't have a base - and wasn't designed to ever have one. It was vaugely the same shape as an old Volker Craig terminal. Incredibly heavy. Wish I had that one. -Ian From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 19:18:49 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:18:49 -0500 Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <166290.28587.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <97822.10935.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <166290.28587.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708231718j15275319n69763e16495b2782@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Yeah, I have noticed that too. I've been looking for a > black and white monitor for a Sun for a long time now. > Even the early color monitors are hard to find. With > the price of more modern monitors so low, most people > seem to have chucked these the first chance they got. Yep, I recently gave away all my old SGI monitors, save one BNC unit from the Personal Iris era (though that may well go too if I can find a taker.) I'm going to take my chances adapting my old gear to LCD panels, or just do without (or serial) until there's a workable solution. Doesn't do the OP much good out here in Chicago, but I've got a Sun GDM20 to give away if anyone needs it. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 19:20:08 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <902196.98437.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > NEC D780C This is a Z80 compatibe CPU. > NEC D770008AC-6 I believe this is the low power version of the above > NEC D8251AC USART - Universal Syncronous Asynchronous Receiver Transmitter > AMD AM9511A-1DC Processor > Intel 8339 > Intel 8325 Sure those aren't date codes? > Zilog Z8442BPS Serial I/O controller > Zilog Z8430BPS Counter timer circuit -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 19:33:03 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708231718j15275319n69763e16495b2782@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <868579.40523.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm going to take my chances adapting my > old gear to LCD > panels, or just do without (or serial) until there's > a workable > solution. Blasphemy! 100 pound monitors are part of the Silicon Graphics experience! Not to mention the picture quality of those monitors is far better than I've seen on LCD's. But, then again, it all boils down to personal preference. We don't need to go starting that "LCD vs CRT" thing again. > > Doesn't do the OP much good out here in Chicago, but > I've got a Sun > GDM20 to give away if anyone needs it. Yeah, I'm near Albany... Sure there's someone that needs one though. -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 23 19:55:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:55:31 -0600 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: Unless we're talking about many thousands of them, we'd probably be > better off finding someone with an injection molding machine on this > side of the world. Reply: Cheap Labor. Willing to be creative in industry. > -Dave Then anybody with a machine shop and lots of tuits? Lets see if any one top old DAVE for being creative and this is just with plastic. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/injatt/index.html http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/inject/index.html http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/vacf/index.html Ben Alias woodelf. PS. People on the other side of the ocean are welcome too to be creative for 'classic plastic parts' for spares or new use. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Aug 23 20:09:33 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:09:33 +0100 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 References: <172797.48436.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c7e5eb$6fc25330$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I think Time Tunnel features more old computers than >Lost In Space, atleast in the HQ anyway.... Funnily enough....I've just been eating my way through the entire series of "The Time Tunnel". This discussion got me wondering whether any of the "computers" in the background were real machines, or are they all props (as I've always assumed)? >....(Yes, I am a fan of Irwin Allens and have seen pretty much >all his TV shows, but that's OT so I'll say no more). Ah, but he predicted that one day we'd all be using the same computers....I'm sure I've seen the same machines as in the Time Tunnel in both the Seaview and the Jupiter II! ;-) TTFN - Pete. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 23 20:21:29 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 In-Reply-To: <00ba01c7e5eb$6fc25330$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <172797.48436.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <00ba01c7e5eb$6fc25330$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, Ensor wrote: > Funnily enough....I've just been eating my way through the entire series of > "The Time Tunnel". > > This discussion got me wondering whether any of the "computers" in the > background were real machines, or are they all props (as I've always > assumed)? Oh they were real, all right. The "computers" in the Time Tunnel were sections of the maintenance consoles and radar inputs panels from the AN/FSQ-7 (SAGE) computer from the late 1950s. See my web page for more than you ever wanted to know about SAGE on screen: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 23 20:30:38 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:30:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside the personal computer article at TechRepublic In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070822111438.0bf97210@localhost> Message-ID: <362649.5881.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for the links. I love the bright colours of the PET2001. Not entirely sure how the external keyboard would work though. Is there a slot for the cable when the unit is closed, or would you have to keep it slightly ajar when in use? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tom Peters wrote: This is interesting. Cracking Open Vintage Computers Photo Galleries... As giant lizards once roamed our planet, so did mammoth machines once balance our checkbooks. Come along as we take a look back the some of the earliest and most unique personal computers - the Kenbak-1, Altair 8800, and Pet 2001. -- Bill Detwiler, TechRepublic Content Development Manager Kenbak-1 http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-15160-1.html Altair 8800 http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-1453.html?tag=nl.e099.dl082207 PET 2001 http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-1477.html?tag=nl.e099.dl082207 ----- 237. [Philosophy] "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add but when there is nothing more to take out." --Antoine St Exupery --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Aug 23 20:50:00 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:50:00 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found References: <20070822121547.231900@gmx.net> Message-ID: <00f101c7e5f1$15fb7ab0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I used one of those both at JPL and Caltech in the '70s. >Worked quite well. Yes, from the pictures it looks rather like the Tektronix terminal I used while at Leicester Polytechnic from 1983 - 1985. It was located in the miniscule "Graphics Lab" alongside a DEC "GiGi" (wish I'd kept mine) and another graphic terminal the model of which I forget now. Anyone else attend Leicester Poly around that time? TTFN - Pete. From djg at pdp8.net Thu Aug 23 21:18:55 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:18:55 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found Message-ID: <200708240218.l7O2Ite05600@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> I have the 4002A drawer unit and keyboard maintenance manual. I don't have the monitor manual. I also have the 611 monitor manual. Not sure how close either will be to your unit. The 4002A looks similar to the picture online. It will be a couple weeks before I can scan them if they are useful. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8online.com/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 21:21:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:21:52 -0700 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <902196.98437.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com>, <902196.98437.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CDDE50.11901.58182085@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2007 at 17:20, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Zilog Z8442BPS > Serial I/O controller > > > Zilog Z8430BPS > Counter timer circuit It's been a long time--but didn't the "vintage" chips have legends such as "Z80-SIO" and "Z80-CTC" as well as "Z80-CPU"? I liked that convention--didn't leave much to the "I wonder what the heck this chip does" mindset. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Aug 23 21:44:25 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:44:25 -0700 Subject: Inside the personal computer article at TechRepublic In-Reply-To: <362649.5881.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05db01c7e5f8$af5b39f0$6e01a8c0@NFORCE4> -- Andrew Burton Wrote: > I love the bright colours of the PET2001. Not entirely sure how the > external keyboard would work though. Is there a slot for the cable when > the unit is closed, or would you have to keep it slightly ajar when in > use? There is sufficient space between the case halves for the ribbon cable. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Aug 23 21:50:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 03:50:28 +0100 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal References: Message-ID: <017801c7e5f9$88919c50$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Hmm... I don't know that one off the top of my head. You >already have a processor in there, or else I'd wonder if >that was a T-11. Perhaps you have a T-11 in there as well >as an 8085. If so, I'd imagine the T-11 was the ReGIS engine, >and the 8085 does all the I/O. Almost....30 seconds with Google confirms that the 8085 was used to handle text, whereas the T11 handled graphics. I wonder how similar the 240 is to the GiGi? I recall seeing an 8085 in there when I took mine apart some 15 years back, but other than that.... TTFN - PEte. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Aug 23 21:58:41 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 03:58:41 +0100 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update References: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01a701c7e5fa$ad4b0cb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > NEC D780C That one's a Z-80....either my ZX-80 or 81 (or both) had one inside. Don't recognise any of the others off the topp of my head. TTFN - Pete. From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 22:21:23 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:21:23 -0500 Subject: Repairing LA50. In-Reply-To: References: <20070820094316.GA19389@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> Message-ID: <624966d60708232021s69c88db2qb82bc24f6fc2fac0@mail.gmail.com> Make sure the cover is on correctly and any micro switches are working Paul On 8/23/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I've got an LA50-RB printer I'd like to get to work. After powering on > > the "Power" light goes on, then, after about two seconds, "Fault" light > > starts flashing. Printer produces no audible sounds, nothing moves. > > Any idea where to start? > > Most dot-matrix printers move the head back and forth at power-on, and > check that the home sensor is working correctly. The fault light that > you're getting could be a result of the carriage not moving at all. > > First check the carriage can move -- with the printer off, try sliding it > along the rails. > > But I suspect the problem is electrical. The fact that the fault light > comes on and blinks suggests to me that the processor circuitry is > working correctly. Maybe it;s a motor driver problem. Maybe it's a loss > of the motor supply voltage (which will be separate from, and higher, > than the 5V logic supply. > > I think I'd start there. Trace out enough of the circuitry to understand > how the motor driver works. THen see if it is getting power, and if it > is, check the logic signals going into it. > > -tony > From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 23 22:28:01 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:28:01 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0a2201c7e5fe$c7c74e10$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "woodelf": > How many people need replacement switch handles for DEC switches? > How many and what size and colors? > I wonder if we can get the quantity needed and have a custom order > made in china? I'd probably be willing to chip in, if someone were to pull together a group order. Vince From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 22:37:00 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:37:00 -0500 Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <868579.40523.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <51ea77730708231718j15275319n69763e16495b2782@mail.gmail.com> <868579.40523.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708232037m10747ee5x8ed9e600e565fcaa@mail.gmail.com> - Original message - Blasphemy! 100 pound monitors are part of the Silicon Gr... Yeah, I know, I preached that sermon for years as I watched others carry theirs to the curb. Then I moved half a dozen of them upstairs and my back said "no more." I still won't let them get trashed, though. Mine went to a younger, more zealous collector :) I do appreciate the CRT's image quality on those machines, and the cats always made use of their ample seating area and radiant heat, but these are the trades we make to save space (and collect more gear.) On 8/23/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm going to take my chances adapting my > > old gear to LCD > > panels, or just do without (or serial) until there's > > a workable > > solution. > > Blasphemy! 100 pound monitors are part of the Silicon > Graphics experience! Not to mention the picture > quality of those monitors is far better than I've seen > on LCD's. But, then again, it all boils down to > personal preference. We don't need to go starting that > "LCD vs CRT" thing again. > > > > > Doesn't do the OP much good out here in Chicago, but > > I've got a Sun > > GDM20 to give away if anyone needs it. > > Yeah, I'm near Albany... Sure there's someone that > needs one though. > > -Ian > -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 22:49:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:49:00 -0400 Subject: Inside the personal computer article at TechRepublic In-Reply-To: <362649.5881.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070822111438.0bf97210@localhost> <362649.5881.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/23/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Thanks for the links. > > I love the bright colours of the PET2001. Not entirely sure how the external keyboard would work though. Is there a slot for the cable when the unit is closed, or would you have to keep it slightly ajar when in use? > PET 2001 > http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-1477.html?tag=nl.e099.dl082207 There is a gap of several millimeters between the white lid and the black base. I used to have a 3-button external "keyboard" for playing Space Invaders on my PET 2001-32N. It was wired in parallel with the A, 4, and 6 keys ("fire", "left" and "right" for the game), and the wires just snuck out the front of the case in that gap. I stll have the wiring harness and the arcade buttons (and the PET), but I think the wood box went away a long, long time ago. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 23 22:52:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:52:18 -0600 Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708232037m10747ee5x8ed9e600e565fcaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730708231718j15275319n69763e16495b2782@mail.gmail.com> <868579.40523.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <51ea77730708232037m10747ee5x8ed9e600e565fcaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46CE55F2.9000707@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > - Original message - > Blasphemy! 100 pound monitors are part of the Silicon Gr... > > Yeah, I know, I preached that sermon for years as I watched others > carry theirs to the curb. Then I moved half a dozen of them upstairs > and my back said "no more." I still won't let them get trashed, > though. Mine went to a younger, more zealous collector :) > > I do appreciate the CRT's image quality on those machines, and the > cats always made use of their ample seating area and radiant heat, but > these are the trades we make to save space (and collect more gear.) > You mean the CATs let you move them out of the house. :) Ben alias Woodelf From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 23:16:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:16:40 -0700 Subject: Gooey rollers again. Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:39:10 +0100> Subject: Re: Gooey rollers again.> > > This is a great idea. I have used two part, rubber like, materials in > > the past. I found I can buy new rollers for $35 each, much too expensive > > for all 16 needed. I'll probably buy one and try to make a mold from it. > > I'll post the results. > > I was thinking about mashining a mould from a block of metal and using that.> > ---snip--- Hi I thought I might add that even with a mold, it will be difficult to keep it concentric. It is best to over size the mold and grind it down to the right size. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 08:59:02 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:59:02 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Reply: Cheap Labor. Willing to be creative in industry. China does not have cheap labor. China has a Yuan (mostly) locked to the Dollar. Anyway, You will end up spending all of your money on the tooling. Even crappy simple molds are *expensive* - for the standard switch handle (I am guessing you are talking about the paddles on a PDP-8/e and such), I would bet that just the mold would start out at five hundred bucks, from a discount tool and die shop (with a resulting horrid job). For a good professional job, get into four figures. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 24 10:53:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:53:57 -0600 Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:05:38 -0700. <166290.28587.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <166290.28587.qm at web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > I haven't seen ANY fixed frequency monitors in a long > time, and not for lack of looking. Check govliquidation.com -- they usually are listed as "displays" and not monitors. You also have to sift through pallets and pallets of PC monitors, but the other kind are in there. They look like they were all intended to be rack mount, but occasionally lots come up with the monitors that are period with the associated workstation in the same lot. Haven't seen a Sun 1/2/3 for a long time on govliq, but I have seen the occasional DEC workstations and SGI workstations. I just picked up 4 19" and 1 21" SGI CRTs in a dovebid lot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Fri Aug 24 11:58:36 2007 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:58:36 +0200 Subject: Simulating VAX/VMS in SIMH Message-ID: If you use the simh VAX simulator (which emulates a VAX 3800 iirc), the oldest version of VMS to support this one is V5.1. VMS V5.5-2 is the last V5.x version before V6.x came up - some like the last sub version of a main version most because they think they're the most stable ones. If you use the simh VAX780 simulator (which emulates the VAX 780, the first VAX ever built), the oldest version of VMS to support this one should be V1.0. If you want really old VMS versions (V4.x and earlier) just contact me offline. Ulli (The Vaxorcist) From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 11:58:37 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:58:37 -0400 Subject: Tube or not Tube In-Reply-To: <243020.21540.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <243020.21540.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708241258.37829.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 22 August 2007 06:39, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the > high voltage first (in both the terminal, and whatever > you're stealing a tube from!). To do this, attach a > length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade > screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the > terminal/whatever. Hold the insulated plastic handle > of the screwdriver and slide it under the rubber > suction cup of the picture tube, until you feel the > metal clip inside. Typically, this will be accompanied > by a *CRACK* as the high voltage discharges. > (Although, it is possible that the HV dissapated > earlier, depends on the terminal) Do this twice just > to be sure. <...> > * Be careful messing with high voltage stuff! Keep one > hand behind your back when discharging tubes, and be > sure your discharge tool is properly grounded to the > metal chassis of the device. There's several kV > potentially stored in there. I don't believe there's > enough in a terminal to kill you, but it'll hurt like > hell. Best to be as careful as you can. To this I'll add: Don't assume that once you've discharged the HV that it will stay that way! I've been bit by that one before... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 12:15:05 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:15:05 -0400 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708241315.05643.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 23 August 2007 18:11, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I have been scrounging for parts for my computer, and I believe I have hit > the jackpot. A friend of mine set me up with some older Seiko control > system boards, various revisions, from the late 80s. On them are many ICs, > including RAMs, Z80 CPUs, and PIOs, as well as some AMD Arithmetic > processors, a Z80 SIO/2, and other various components. I want to try to > make my computer from these components. Can anyone point me in a good > direction for the datasheets, preferably online, for these mostly obsolete > ICs? Some of them I don't even know what they are, and some I cannot find > online, presumably because they are obsolete. Here's a partial list of > them: NEC D780C > NEC D770008AC-6 > NEC D4364C-15L > NEC D8251AC > NEC D449C > AMD AM9511A-1DC > Sharp LH0081A > Sharp LH0082 > Intel 8339 > Intel 8325 > Intel K3235001 > Zilog Z8442BPS > Zilog Z8430BPS > > Thanks for any help You could have a look here, for starters: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html :-) I suspect that second one is a pretty generic 64K DRAM, the next one an 8251... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 12:17:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <46CDDE50.11901.58182085@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> <902196.98437.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46CDDE50.11901.58182085@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200708241317.01597.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 23 August 2007 22:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Aug 2007 at 17:20, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > Zilog Z8442BPS > > > > Serial I/O controller > > > > > Zilog Z8430BPS > > > > Counter timer circuit > > It's been a long time--but didn't the "vintage" chips have legends > such as "Z80-SIO" and "Z80-CTC" as well as "Z80-CPU"? I liked that > convention--didn't leave much to the "I wonder what the heck this > chip does" mindset. Some of the ones I have on hand do both. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 24 13:36:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:36:46 -0600 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > Anyway, You will end up spending all of your money on the tooling. > Even crappy simple molds are *expensive* - for the standard switch > handle (I am guessing you are talking about the paddles on a PDP-8/e > and such), I would bet that just the mold would start out at five > hundred bucks, from a discount tool and die shop (with a resulting > horrid job). For a good professional job, get into four figures. Ok America only DOES BIG BUISNESS today with BIG WAGES I would expect since you are making a copy of a exsisting product you could have small production run made cheaply. With just a kitchen table in my one-room apartment there is no way I could do any of the work duplicating handles. That is minor point however since nobody seems to have a interest in having handles made. > -- > Will PS. Looks at all the products around the house ... Made in CHINA. Still you get what you pay for and it is hard to find quality any where. I keep forgeting that a good chunk of a computers expensive price was the front panel. I am guessing about $3K in the early 70's for the switches and lights for a PDP-11. Ah my homebrew amp ... The only stuff made in a AMERICA is NOS tubes and special order Power & Audio transformers.The other TUBES in my amp is from the USSR. The good audio caps are ($25 each .2uf 600 V ) from Germany. The regular caps are from France. The most crappy part -- the chassis is from Canada. The rest is US surplus from the 70's. PS. The speakers are from Japan, I can't afford the good ones from the UK) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 14:01:00 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:01:00 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> On Aug 24, 2007, at 2:36 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Anyway, You will end up spending all of your money on the tooling. >> Even crappy simple molds are *expensive* - for the standard switch >> handle (I am guessing you are talking about the paddles on a PDP-8/e >> and such), I would bet that just the mold would start out at five >> hundred bucks, from a discount tool and die shop (with a resulting >> horrid job). For a good professional job, get into four figures. > > Ok America only DOES BIG BUISNESS today with BIG WAGES sarcarm> Well, America has big wages if your title begins with "chief" and ends with "officer". Rest in peace, American middle class. > I would expect since you are making a copy of a exsisting product > you could have small production run made cheaply. With just a > kitchen table > in my one-room apartment there is no way I could do any of the work > duplicating handles. > > That is minor point however since nobody seems to have a interest > in having > handles made. I have an interest, but only for a handful. Will is right; the molds will be the killer. I worked on a commercial product a few years ago that used a two-part plastic chassis that was about the size of a small book. The two halves were very, very simple...no weird shapes, and not difficult for mold design. The "cheap" aluminum molds cost us about $10,000 to have made, and the good stainless steel ones (last much longer) were to cost about $18,000. Molds for small parts such as switch handles will be cheaper, and there's a side benefit to their small size: we might be able to design one mold that can make several different types of switch handles (PDP8/e-PDP11/20 style, PDP11/45-PDP11/70 style, etc) in one shot. DEC didn't use that many different styles of switch handles. There's still the front-end-loaded cost of having a mold cut, but after that, the community would never again have problems getting switch handles. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 24 14:08:54 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:08:54 +0100 Subject: Cleaning computers with spit (but no polish!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002301c7e682$38ca0890$5b01a8c0@uatempname> I just chanced upon this on the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/07/in_pictures_tec hnology0s_hidden_past/html/4.stm The bit that particularly caught my eye is this: The machine, replaced in 1972, is cleaned with saliva and cotton buds to remove the residue left by cigarette smoke. "That's a painting cleaning- technique," said collections care manager Marta Leskard. "Saliva is full of enzymes." Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.4/969 - Release Date: 23/08/2007 16:04 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 24 14:16:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:16:29 -0600 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > I have an interest, but only for a handful. Will is right; the molds > will be the killer. I worked on a commercial product a few years ago > that used a two-part plastic chassis that was about the size of a small > book. The two halves were very, very simple...no weird shapes, and not > difficult for mold design. The "cheap" aluminum molds cost us about > $10,000 to have made, and the good stainless steel ones (last much > longer) were to cost about $18,000. I was looking at DIY molding ... 1 ounce of plastic at most. But you need access to a machine shop ... None around here. See here for the book. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html > Molds for small parts such as switch handles will be cheaper, and > there's a side benefit to their small size: we might be able to design > one mold that can make several different types of switch handles > (PDP8/e-PDP11/20 style, PDP11/45-PDP11/70 style, etc) in one shot. DEC > didn't use that many different styles of switch handles. I got drooling over things like the PDP-12. Don't forget you need several colors. The problem is finding a place that does small runs. > There's still the front-end-loaded cost of having a mold cut, but > after that, the community would never again have problems getting switch > handles. Or you can get custom switches made ... Now what about the switches that go with the handles? Are they special? > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > > > > . > From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Aug 24 14:38:10 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:38:10 +0100 Subject: London Science Museum on bbc web site In-Reply-To: <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: some pictures of the science museums store... including pictures http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/07/ in_pictures_technology0s_hidden_past/html/1.stm some big iron there.. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 14:42:30 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <510247.85209.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I have an interest, but only for a handful. Will > is right; the > molds will be the killer. I would definitely have an intrest - if I had a computer with a lights-and-switches front panel. Now, if anyone has a PDP-11/70 looking for a home, then yeah, I'd buy some switch handles . But, despite the costs of mold-making, I'm sure it would be possible. I know that the vintage radio community has made reproduction knobs and such. Like the pushbuttons for 40's Philco consoles and plastic bezels. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 14:53:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:53:48 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/24/07, woodelf wrote: > Or you can get custom switches made ... Now what about the switches > that go with the handles? Are they special? I have worked mostly with various PDP-8 switches, and the 11/70 switches. The PDP-8 switches are nothing unusual, for the time, but I don't know where one would find quantities of them now. The 11/70 switches are rather ordinary C&K switch bodies with uncommon, but standard, squarish stamped sheet-metal snap-mounts. New C&K switches are a few dollars each, unless you can find them surplus (which I did at the Mansfield Hamfest last year, at least for the non-momentary, snap-action switches for my 11/70 panel). I don't know how to describe the older switches, except to say that they were the rather common slide-switch type of the era, with the bakelite slide and square stem that is topped by a ridged curved actuator area. Lots of them were used for power switches for 1960s and 1970s appliances. The reason the DEC switch handles were these odd levered affairs was to fit over an ordinary switch. Personally, I could use some 11/70 switch covers - I have a panel with _zero_ actuators. At the moment, I have standard C&K black paddles on them, which is unaesthetic, but functional. If 11/70 actuators were to be made, I would probably be interested, but I'm unconvinced that at present prices, it's economical to make a hobbyist run of them. Perhaps in the medium-term future, should fab-at-home-type hardware continue to drop in price, the equation will look more favorable, but right now, I don't think it is. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 14:59:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:59:16 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <510247.85209.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <510247.85209.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CF3894.4000409@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I have an interest, but only for a handful. Will >> is right; the >> molds will be the killer. > > I would definitely have an intrest - if I had a > computer with a lights-and-switches front panel. Now, > if anyone has a PDP-11/70 looking for a home, then > yeah, I'd buy some switch handles . > > But, despite the costs of mold-making, I'm sure it > would be possible. I know that the vintage radio > community has made reproduction knobs and such. Like > the pushbuttons for 40's Philco consoles and plastic > bezels. I have rapid-prototyping gear. It's expensive to make stuff, so quantity is out of the question, but I've used it for making one-off hard drive mounting rails. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 15:00:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:00:18 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If 11/70 actuators were to be made, I would probably be interested, > but I'm unconvinced that at present prices, it's economical to make a > hobbyist run of them. Perhaps in the medium-term future, should > fab-at-home-type hardware continue to drop in price, the equation will > look more favorable, but right now, I don't think it is. About ten years ago, a friend of mine found a private individual selling copies of the weird proprietary data connector used on many Garmin GPS receivers. He was a hobbyist who had a small injection molding machine in his house. I have several of the connectors he made; they are of excellent quality. I wonder if we could find him. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Aug 24 15:32:51 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:32:51 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070824162700.012c9860@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>If 11/70 actuators were to be made, I would probably be interested, >>but I'm unconvinced that at present prices, it's economical to make a >>hobbyist run of them. Perhaps in the medium-term future, should >>fab-at-home-type hardware continue to drop in price, the equation will >>look more favorable, but right now, I don't think it is. > > About ten years ago, a friend of mine found a private individual >selling copies of the weird proprietary data connector used on many >Garmin GPS receivers. He was a hobbyist who had a small injection >molding machine in his house. I have several of the connectors he >made; they are of excellent quality. > > I wonder if we could find him. Doubtful... he isn't lost! ;-) The individual you're thinking of was Larry Berg of Purple Computing - he's still in "business" as it were - his business model is kinda like a "open source hardware" model... it works for him, tho. http://www.pfranc.com/ This is kinda ontopic - even tho he doesn't support Tandy Model 100/102/200 laptops anymore (he used to sell memory upgrades & whatnot for them) he still uses them for daily tasks around the shop, including one that runs his plastic injection moulding machine. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 24 15:36:23 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:36:23 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca><4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "woodelf" > I was looking at DIY molding ... 1 ounce of plastic at most. > But you need access to a machine shop ... None around here. > See here for the book. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html I have successfully cast passable switch handles (in ones and twos) without using injection molding. I used silicone rubber to make molds from existing actuators. >> Molds for small parts such as switch handles will be cheaper, and >> there's a side benefit to their small size: we might be able to design >> one mold that can make several different types of switch handles >> (PDP8/e-PDP11/20 style, PDP11/45-PDP11/70 style, etc) in one shot. DEC >> didn't use that many different styles of switch handles. > > I got drooling over things like the PDP-12. Don't forget you need several > colors. The problem is finding a place that does small runs. The colors are where I got stuck. I haven't been able to make actuators come out the color I want, not to mention repeatably. If one can't get repeatable results, then it would be necessary to cast a set of them together (so they'd come out the same color). > Now what about the switches > that go with the handles? Are they special? Not terribly, but no-one stocks full size slide switches much anymore. (Isn't this one of our perennial discussion topics?) Vince From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 24 15:44:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca><4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > The colors are where I got stuck. I haven't been able to make > actuators come out the color I want, not to mention repeatably. > If one can't get repeatable results, then it would be necessary > to cast a set of them together (so they'd come out the same color). Have you considered making the switches from white nylon and dying them afterwards? Rit is supposed to be good on nylon. > > Now what about the switches > > that go with the handles? Are they special? > > Not terribly, but no-one stocks full size slide switches much > anymore. Digikey seems to have the right ones. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 24 16:41:30 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:41:30 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46CF508A.4090002@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> If 11/70 actuators were to be made, I would probably be interested, >> but I'm unconvinced that at present prices, it's economical to make a >> hobbyist run of them. Perhaps in the medium-term future, should >> fab-at-home-type hardware continue to drop in price, the equation will >> look more favorable, but right now, I don't think it is. > > > About ten years ago, a friend of mine found a private individual > selling copies of the weird proprietary data connector used on many > Garmin GPS receivers. He was a hobbyist who had a small injection > molding machine in his house. I have several of the connectors he > made; they are of excellent quality. OK, Standard Shirking of Accountability: I'm not trying to start a flame war, or to minimize the attraction of fully-original restoration. Having rendered myself blameless, I keep reading this thread and contrasting it with the tape-drive-roller-goo threads. My question and maybe some food for thought is "are you looking for Original, or Authentic?" I have a bunch of PDP-11s, not -8s, but my practice is to make it work. I have one system, an 11/53, that was fully original when I got it. It's either factory-original, or DEC-FE original. That one gets DEC parts, and if I needed to raid another machine or fab a part, I'd do it. The rest of them have been maintained by customers and customized to some extent or other. Those guys get fixed. If DEC parts are handy, that's good. If not, an electrically-compatible Ratshack part will do nicely. Original? No. Authentic? Damn straight - it's exactly what would have happened in production. Before I spend a lot of trouble or time getting it Exactly Right, I'm going to evaluate the machine as a whole, and see if Exactly Right is a hand-fabbed perfect replica, or a cheap Radio Shack paddle switch. Discuss, please. Show your work. :) Doc From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 24 17:22:10 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:22:10 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca><41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com><46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca><46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca><4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com><46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <0aa401c7e69d$37a654d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "David Griffith": > On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> The colors are where I got stuck. I haven't been able to make >> actuators come out the color I want, not to mention repeatably. >> If one can't get repeatable results, then it would be necessary >> to cast a set of them together (so they'd come out the same color). > > Have you considered making the switches from white nylon and dying them > afterwards? Rit is supposed to be good on nylon. I got as far as buying the Rit, but I haven't done the experiments to figure out how good the result is, let alone to get reproducible results. >> > Now what about the switches >> > that go with the handles? Are they special? >> >> Not terribly, but no-one stocks full size slide switches much >> anymore. > > Digikey seems to have the right ones. Do you know the part numbers for full-size switches? Are they stocked, or are they "we can get these if you order enough"? Vince From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 24 17:47:52 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:47:52 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF508A.4090002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <0aa701c7e6a0$ce50b4e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Doc Shipley": > Having rendered myself blameless, I keep reading this thread and > contrasting it with the tape-drive-roller-goo threads. My question and > maybe some food for thought is "are you looking for Original, or > Authentic?" If I am understanding you correctly, I'm looking for "Authentic, preferably close to Original". It's necessary to locate the parts to render the stuff operable (though I am lazy about actually debugging it), and preferable to preserve the stuff, or at least the experience of using the stuff, as much as possible. So, the switch handles seem like a big deal, since they are a primary aspect of using the machines (at least until a working mass storage device is attached). I assume people will want them the original size and shape, and ideally the correct colors. The casting process generates a fair number of "rejects". Most of the handles I have cast can be made functional, in the sense that (possibly with rework) they can be made to operate a front panel switch. Perhaps one in three of the handles I've cast is visually free of voids, bubbles, or other defects. I could probably do better with more control of the process, etc. None of the handles has had the correct color. The closest I got was a wierd pinkish apricot color, when what I was shooting for was something between terra-cotta and pumpkin. No two batches of plastic were close to the same color. (The dyes are not very soluble, and come in an almost unusably concentrated form which I haven't found a way to dilute.) > Before I spend a lot of trouble or time getting it Exactly Right, I'm > going to evaluate the machine as a whole, and see if Exactly Right is a > hand-fabbed perfect replica, or a cheap Radio Shack paddle switch. Sure, and I'd replace a gate with one with a newer date code (if I had to), as I don't think that affects the experience or result noticably. More than likely, an old bulb with a similar new bulb that is still comercially available. Heck, I'd even (functionally) replace a rack of DF32s with a semiconductor replacement, since it really isn't good for the old drives to run them (especially intermittently). But if replacement DF32s (or parts for them) were readily available, I'd want to use the real thing. There's my $.02 :-). Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 17:49:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:49:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT240 terminal In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 23, 7 11:06:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/23/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E-bay and > > know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). Perhaps > > somebody can enlightent me > > I can try. > > > 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the > > colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour > > monitor with my base unit? > > Yes. You just need the right cable. You can use a VR241, if it's > easier to find in the UK, or back in the day, many folks used an I have a real DEC VR241 that I use with my Pros and 'Bow. > NTSC-frequency Barco-brand monitor, of a variety that had four BNCs > RGB + Csync). I also have such a Barco. It's actually set up for UK TV rates, but according to the (excellent) manual, it can be twiddled for NTSC rates as well. > > > 2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), current > > loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a > > printer port, also RS232. > > I believe it's a printer port, but I am reasonably certain it's not > the same pinout as a PC-AT. It should be some DEC pinout. I;'ve seen 9 pin serial ports on old DEC hardware before, and they're not PC/AT pinout. But it won't be much of a problem to make up a cable if I want to use the printer port. > I don't recall that part, but I would expect the keyboard to work in > either place. I doubt anything will be harmed by trying. Most of the > time, DEC was good about that sort of stuff. Indeed. It also won't be hard to see if the appropriate pins on the DA15 connect to the RJ11, or indeed if they go anywhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 18:22:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:22:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Aug 24, 7 01:16:29 pm Message-ID: > I was looking at DIY molding ... 1 ounce of plastic at most. > But you need access to a machine shop ... None around here. > See here for the book. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html If that's the book I think it is, then I have it, and the machine certainly looks as though it should work. One day I intand having a go at making it (but I am short of circular tuits at the moment). Of course making the machine is only half the problem, you still have to make the mould. As regards a lack of machine shop, I am pretty sure David GIngery has written a set of books on making a machine shop from scratch. But my experience is that the people who can do this (a) have access to machine tools and more importantly (b) have been machinists for many years and thus have a lot of experience as to what is possible, what is imporatant, and so on. I don't feel many people could make a lathe from scratch having never used one. I buying a small-ish lathe totally out of the question for you? Yes, a good one is expensive, but it's versatile, and will last for a very long time with reaonable care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 17:52:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:52:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550708231511i641e0be1veff015a4a4c421fc@mail.gmail.com> from "Joe Giliberti" at Aug 23, 7 06:11:28 pm Message-ID: > > I have been scrounging for parts for my computer, and I believe I have hit > the jackpot. A friend of mine set me up with some older Seiko control system > boards, various revisions, from the late 80s. On them are many ICs, > including RAMs, Z80 CPUs, and PIOs, as well as some AMD Arithmetic > processors, a Z80 SIO/2, and other various components. I want to try to make > my computer from these components. Can anyone point me in a good direction > for the datasheets, preferably online, for these mostly obsolete ICs? Some > of them I don't even know what they are, and some I cannot find online, > presumably because they are obsolete. Here's a partial list of them: > NEC D780C AFAIK it's an exact equivaletn of a Z80 CPU. I've never found a circuit that works with one and not the other. > NEC D770008AC-6 No idea > NEC D4364C-15L I guess that's a 64K*1 DRAM, similar to a 4164 > NEC D8251AC Equivalent to the Intel 8251, National Semiconductor INS8251, etc. It's a USART > NEC D449C No idea > AMD AM9511A-1DC AMD floating point chip > Sharp LH0081A > Sharp LH0082 No idea > Intel 8339 > Intel 8325 Are you sure you've not given me the date codes? > Intel K3235001 No diea > Zilog Z8442BPS Z80-SIO I think Dual serial interface chip > Zilog Z8430BPS Z80-CTC COunter/Timer chip -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 18:34:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:34:23 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <0aa701c7e6a0$ce50b4e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF508A.4090002@mdrconsult.com> <0aa701c7e6a0$ce50b4e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: > None of the handles has had the correct color. The closest I got > was a wierd pinkish apricot color, when what I was shooting for > was something between terra-cotta and pumpkin. No two batches of > plastic were close to the same color. In plastics engineering, color matching is one of the biggest problems around. There is a reason why Rubbermaid offers their containers in so many colors. Also, this is a looooong shot, but would somebody be willing to contact HP to see if the molds are still around? For some reason, I have found that companies tend to hold onto obsolete molds as if they were gold, but for no reason. When asked, often the answer is "well, I dunno...too nice to throw out...". -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 18:46:06 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:46:06 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I would expect since you are making a copy of a exsisting product > you could have small production run made cheaply. Its all in the tooling... Even if the tooling were available cheap or free, a molder would still charge a setup fee that might be tough to stomach. Once that is done, and the machine tuned to make decent parts (typically machines and molds need tweaking, or voids and warps will result), the parts are really cheap. Might as well make 10000 of each. > PS. Looks at all the products around the house ... Made in CHINA. Not sure about this rant... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 18:49:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:49:42 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Well, America has big wages if your title begins with "chief" and > ends with "officer". Rest in peace, American middle class. Do your own thing. Leave the system. That is what I did. I am never going back... > Molds for small parts such as switch handles will be cheaper, and > there's a side benefit to their small size: we might be able to > design one mold that can make several different types of switch > handles (PDP8/e-PDP11/20 style, PDP11/45-PDP11/70 style, etc) in one > shot. DEC didn't use that many different styles of switch handles. This is absolutely the right thing to do. What are there - three main styles, maybe some sub substyles, over about a dozen colors? -- Will From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Aug 24 19:02:01 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've seen some parts created with Fused Deposition Modelling, the so-called "3D printer", and was quite impressed. A variety of materials are available, but ABS seems to be the most common. There are several companies now that provide outsourced prototype manufacture using this technology, similar to the short-run PC board houses. You send them the CAD file, and they send you the parts. Color could be a problem, and you might have to settle for painting them yourself. They shouldn't look too bad with epoxy paint if you can get the color match. A quick web search turned up these guys, who sell such paint for modelmaking in small quantities in a variety of colors. http://klasskote.com/paint_store.html --Bill From rcini at optonline.net Fri Aug 24 22:17:02 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:17:02 -0400 Subject: Model 100 tape archiving question Message-ID: All: While cleaning up the shop I found a few Tandy Model 100 cassette tapes. What is the best way to archive them? I?d like to do two things ? first, make a reproducable copy. Second, have a data extraction so I can add support for them to the VirtualT emulator. Any ideas? Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 24 22:17:58 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:17:58 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) References: <102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ac801c7e6c6$8b44bf40$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "William Maddox": > Color could be a > problem, and you might have to settle for painting > them yourself. They shouldn't look too bad with epoxy > paint if you can get the color match. A quick web > search turned up these guys, who sell such paint for > modelmaking in small quantities in a variety of > colors. > > http://klasskote.com/paint_store.html Cool link -- I think that paint might solve some of the problems I've seen with paints. (Mainly that they don't adhere well enough to the plastics and don't seem strong enough to hold up to repeated toggling without chipping or peeling.) Vince From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Aug 25 07:15:38 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:15:38 +0200 Subject: tek 4002 In-Reply-To: <46CD9E6B.1030802@sbcglobal.net> References: <46CD9E6B.1030802@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20070825121538.63900@gmx.net> Okay, I have the manual now (a listmember kindly downloaded it and sent it to me, thanks again). However, one picture in there shows the cardcage (not very clearly or close-up, I have to add), but it looks like theirs has all slots populated. Either they used one which was fully tricked out with options, or mine is indeed missing some cards. I'll have a look what's in mine sometime next week. So long, -- Arno Kletzander Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From rickb at bensene.com Sat Aug 25 08:14:49 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 06:14:49 -0700 Subject: tek 4002 In-Reply-To: <20070825121538.63900@gmx.net> References: <46CD9E6B.1030802@sbcglobal.net> <20070825121538.63900@gmx.net> Message-ID: Arno Kletzander wrote: > However, one picture in there shows the cardcage (not very > clearly or close-up, I have to add), but it looks like theirs > has all slots populated. Either they used one which was fully > tricked out with options, or mine is indeed missing some cards. IIRC, the cardcage drawer in the 4002A was pretty well populated. There weren't all that many options that I am aware of -- mostly communications related, and didn't take that many slots. There was a parallel interface for faster transfers, some kind of option that allowed a high-speed non-serial connection to a PDP-11-class computer (Unibus), and the usual RS-232C and current-loop serial interfaces. As far as I know, that was about it. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that your terminal isn't missing any cards! Good luck with restoration and bringing it back to life. These are truly classic, and rare terminals. I have many fond memories of using these both at OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry) on their Digital Equipment "Straight-8" (1975 or so), and also for quite a few years at Tektronix in the late '70's. The 4002's were quite common then, but quickly replaced with 4010's as the terminal of choice for connecting up to computers in Tektronix' data center (CDC Cyber 73-KRONOS, VAX 11/780-VMS). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 25 09:38:45 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 07:38:45 -0700 Subject: Diablo 620 Printer and RO Terminal Message-ID: <0d318f95ecc7397bbcdf9fe5f485b44d@valleyimplants.com> The printer is back, cleaned, tested, and fully working with manual, 5 typewheels, and 7 carbon ribbons. Since I've put several hours into it, it's no longer free, but if anyone wants it make an offer. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 09:50:09 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:50:09 -0500 Subject: London Science Museum on bbc web site In-Reply-To: References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <41E273FF-703E-43B5-88FA-157959628DBD@neurotica.com> <46CE2C83.7080203@jetnet.ab.ca> <46CF253E.3020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FF8E851-244E-4FCD-83A9-AB4422878F88@neurotica.com> <46CF2E8D.10404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730708250750w7c99ec97h5bf1d002e16fb02@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/07, Roger Pugh wrote: > some pictures of the science museums store... including pictures > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/07/ > in_pictures_technology0s_hidden_past/html/1.stm > > some big iron there.. I've been trying to describe to my realtor what kind of space I'm going to need to house my collection (+ future expansion) when I move. I think these pics will help. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 25 12:18:39 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:18:39 -0700 Subject: Diablo 620 Printer and RO Terminal Message-ID: <7220c419bf3a333f5c75e51b8cf9633c@valleyimplants.com> It is for sale/trade, and currently located in Renton, WA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 25 12:23:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:23:39 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D0032B.17999.3DAED91@cclist.sydex.com> All this talk about DEC switch handles has me wondering exactly what is being discussed. When removed from a front panel, exactly what does one of these doodads look like? Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 25 20:12:40 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 21:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI/IDE laptop adapters In-Reply-To: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net> References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net> Message-ID: <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> (I'm sending this to five lists, the five lists that I think most likely to have an interest in such a thing - ie, the ones most likely to be using machines built during the era when SCSI laptop disks were popular enough to be used. Since followup discussion on some lists is likely to go in directions not appropriate for other lists, I've set a Reply-To: address which is a bitbucket; please fix it if/when you reply, to send to just the list appropriate for your reply.) I have a SPARCstation Voyager, which unfortunately has a fairly small disk (773 MB). But this machine uses SCSI disks and has space for only a laptop-form-factor drive (well, unless you want to go external, which is rather suboptimal). I understand there are other machines in the same boat, such as some Mac laptops (I don't know whether they're PowerPC or 68k - or perhaps some of each - which is why I'm sending to both the macppc and mac68k NetBSD lists.) I did some searching and found there was a company that made an adapter that fit next to a modern (thin) laptop drive, so the result was a somewhat thickish "disk" that still fit within the old laptop form factor - but which spoke SCSI to the host even though the disk was IDE. Most of them were fairly expensive, but there was one that looked reasonable. The vendor that was said to carry it, though, no longer does (I phoned them and asked), so I wrote to the manufacturer. They offer to sell them to me at US$65 apiece, quantity 10. I'm willing to pay that rate, but I have no need for more than maybe two. So I'm wondering if people would be interested in buying these off me (at my cost, which probably means about USD 70 including shipping, at least within US48+CA). The device in question is the Century CHB25INT, as described in http://online.century.co.jp/BittradeTest/e_shop/chb25int.html. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Aug 26 01:10:53 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][ Copam EPROM Writer documentation? Message-ID: Does anyone have the documentation for the Copam EPROM Writer for the Apple ][? It's got a ZIF socket on it and the software in ROM, but I am having trouble reading any EPROMs so I want to make sure I'm inserting them properly (the board and socket have no markings). Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 26 03:16:37 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 04:16:37 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708260416.37274.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 24 August 2007 19:22, Tony Duell wrote: > > I was looking at DIY molding ... 1 ounce of plastic at most. > > But you need access to a machine shop ... None around here. > > See here for the book. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html > > If that's the book I think it is, then I have it, and the machine > certainly looks as though it should work. One day I intand having a go at > making it (but I am short of circular tuits at the moment). > > Of course making the machine is only half the problem, you still have to > make the mould. > > As regards a lack of machine shop, I am pretty sure David GIngery has > written a set of books on making a machine shop from scratch. But my > experience is that the people who can do this (a) have access to machine > tools and more importantly (b) have been machinists for many years and > thus have a lot of experience as to what is possible, what is imporatant, > and so on. I don't feel many people could make a lathe from scratch > having never used one. > > I buying a small-ish lathe totally out of the question for you? Yes, a > good one is expensive, but it's versatile, and will last for a very long > time with reaonable care. Apparently this one can be built without a lot of machine tools and such: http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/lathe-modelling.html -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 26 08:34:48 2007 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 15:34:48 +0200 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <200708251703.l7PH26F9007429@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708251703.l7PH26F9007429@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46D18178.4050607@xs4all.nl> Somehow I missed the original, but this are my 2 cents; > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:52:47 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Building my own classic style computer update > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > >> I have been scrounging for parts for my computer, and I believe I have hit >> the jackpot. A friend of mine set me up with some older Seiko control system >> boards, various revisions, from the late 80s. On them are many ICs, >> including RAMs, Z80 CPUs, and PIOs, as well as some AMD Arithmetic >> processors, a Z80 SIO/2, and other various components. I want to try to make >> my computer from these components. Can anyone point me in a good direction >> for the datasheets, preferably online, for these mostly obsolete ICs? Some >> of them I don't even know what they are, and some I cannot find online, >> presumably because they are obsolete. Here's a partial list of them: >> NEC D780C >> > > AFAIK it's an exact equivaletn of a Z80 CPU. I've never found a circuit > that works with one and not the other. > Nec states it is pin and software compatible in their 'Microcomputers 1983/1984' data book. > >> NEC D770008AC-6 >> > > No idea > Not in my databooks. > >> NEC D4364C-15L >> > > I guess that's a 64K*1 DRAM, similar to a 4164 > Static NMOS RAM 8k x 8 > >> NEC D8251AC >> > > Equivalent to the Intel 8251, National Semiconductor INS8251, etc. It's a > USART > > >> NEC D449C >> > > No idea > Static NMOS RAM 2k x 8 > >> AMD AM9511A-1DC >> > > AMD floating point chip > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/dai/doc/AM9511.pdf. If you decide not to use this part or has some spare, I am very interested. I still have a DAI computer with a socket waiting for such a chip (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/dai/index.html). > >> Sharp LH0081A >> A Z80 PIO clone >> Sharp LH0082 >> > > No idea > A Z80 CTC clone Fred Jan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 26 10:02:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 09:02:55 -0600 Subject: DEC switch handles-off topic In-Reply-To: <200708260416.37274.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200708260416.37274.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46D1961F.8080200@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I buying a small-ish lathe totally out of the question for you? Yes, a >> good one is expensive, but it's versatile, and will last for a very long >> time with reaonable care. > > Apparently this one can be built without a lot of machine tools and such: > > http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/lathe-modelling.html I'd want to go with a full sized shop, all the nice machining stuff I have seen are rather large scale steam engines. :) From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 26 12:38:49 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:38:49 -0700 Subject: HP 264x firmware listing Message-ID: <46D1BAA9.7080705@bitsavers.org> The GMD Reduction Machine used an HP 264x series terminal with modified firmware as an I/O device. Listings can be found at: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/gmd/reductionMachine/terminal Of particular interest is 2.file.pdf which appears to be firmware for controlling the tape drives. From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Aug 26 12:33:49 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: Not to cause a run on Pro-Log PROM programmers, but the M900 at least has an INS4004D microprocessor (National Semiconductor 4004 second source) at its heart. I only found out because I'm trying to figure out why this M900 isn't working and opened it. I re-seated all the chips, hoping for a quick fix, but no go. Are there any known, simple to fix faults on these? It powers up, power supply is good, no output on the LEDs other than transient voltage spikes on startup causing individual elements to momentarily light. Otherwise, no activity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 26 13:15:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 11:15:40 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles In-Reply-To: References: <46CE0CD0.2070909@jetnet.ab.ca>, <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, Message-ID: <46D160DC.29851.930E1DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2007 at 13:44, David Griffith wrote: > > Not terribly, but no-one stocks full size slide switches much > > anymore. > > Digikey seems to have the right ones. In partcular, I see what seems to resemble DEC switches in section F of the Alcoswitch catalog. Standard colors are red and black, but I suppose one could color the paddles any way one wanted using a good tough epoxy polyamide paint. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 26 14:09:31 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:09:31 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer References: Message-ID: <46D1CFEB.C7921ABA@cs.ubc.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Not to cause a run on Pro-Log PROM programmers, but the M900 at least has > an INS4004D microprocessor (National Semiconductor 4004 second source) at > its heart. > > I only found out because I'm trying to figure out why this M900 isn't > working and opened it. I re-seated all the chips, hoping for a quick fix, > but no go. > > Are there any known, simple to fix faults on these? It powers up, power > supply is good, no output on the LEDs other than transient voltage spikes > on startup causing individual elements to momentarily light. Otherwise, > no activity. I've had a few problems with mine, mostly failing semiconductors, all of which have been unusual and difficult to replace/substitute, although I was quite pleased when I found the 4004 inside. I presume you have the manual, which has the schematic and a listing of the base code firmware. I suppose it's conceivable the 1702 firmware EPROMS are losing their contents. I have taken dumps of the contents of the ones in mine, if of interest. There is a hitch though: various options come on additional firmware 1702s, and some experiments with mine suggested that the base code does not auto-detect the options, rather it appears (one of?) the base code EPROMS is tailored for the particular firmware options installed, so the dumps I have may be valid only for the option set I have. Similarly, if someone has pulled one of the option ROMS in yours, the unit probably won't work. (Is this a new toy or something you know was working? Also, out of interest, which personality module do you have plugged in?) If you haven't used the unit before, you do have to press one of the LIST/DUP/VER/COPY keys initially to get anything to display on the hex LEDs (initially blank on power-up), although I expect you've banged on all the keys already. IIRC, some of the communication adapters if plugged in (serial¶llel D plugs) may cause the unit to appear hung. If all the power supplies levels are OK I suppose the next thing would be to 'scope for multiplex/keyboard scan activity to see if the processor/firmware is functioning. From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Aug 26 15:35:45 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: Brent Hilpert sayeth: > I've had a few problems with mine, mostly failing semiconductors, all of > which have been unusual and difficult to replace/substitute, although I > was quite pleased when I found the 4004 inside. I'll say. It's basically a 4004 microcomputer system in there, so it's no surprise the support chips have been hard to track down. > I presume you have the manual, which has the schematic and a listing of > the base code firmware. Yes. > I suppose it's conceivable the 1702 firmware EPROMS are losing their > contents. I didn't consider that possibility and don't want to :) But it might be correct. These are pretty old by now. > I have taken dumps of the contents of the ones in mine, if of interest. I have another I can try out. But yes, I would probably want to re-burn the EPROMS if they have rotted out. > (Is this a new toy or something you know was working? Also, out of > interest, which personality module do you have plugged in?) A new toy, but I assumed it worked. I hope the other one is good at least. This one has the 2716 plug-in, which is perfect because that just happens to be what I need it for currently. When I pull the other one I'll let you know what module it has. I believe I have also an 800 model, something like that, but a third unit for sure. > If you haven't used the unit before, you do have to press one of the > LIST/DUP/VER/COPY keys initially to get anything to display on the hex > LEDs (initially blank on power-up), although I expect you've banged on > all the keys already. Oh yes, they got thoroughly exercised. > IIRC, some of the communication adapters if plugged in (serial¶llel > D plugs) may cause the unit to appear hung. Interesting. But nothing is plugged into those. Interestingly, the serial interface is current loop, for interfacing to a TTY. That feature really dates these things :) > If all the power supplies levels are OK I suppose the next thing would > be to 'scope for multiplex/keyboard scan activity to see if the > processor/firmware is functioning. Or just try the other and hope it works. I unfortunately don't have time for troubleshooting :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 26 15:53:17 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:53:17 -0400 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708261653.17664.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 26 August 2007 16:35, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > IIRC, some of the communication adapters if plugged in (serial¶llel > > D plugs) may cause the unit to appear hung. > > Interesting. But nothing is plugged into those. Interestingly, the > serial interface is current loop, for interfacing to a TTY. That feature > really dates these things :) Speaking of which, I'm remembering running into current loops in some early hardware (tht Heathkit H-11 I built back in 1978 for one example), but they seem to be all but gone, even though you can run a whole lot more wire with one of those than with rs232. Wonder why that is? I guess they were put into use originally because of teletype machines? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sun Aug 26 16:20:02 2007 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 17:20:02 -0400 Subject: craigslist: Commodore PET - $25 References: <200708261701.l7QH0v5N022916@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46D1EE82.B15D2544@buckeye-express.com> Seen on craigslist: Vintage 1970s Commodore PET working - $25. Located in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA (near Detroit). http://annarbor.craigslist.org/sys/406092686.html I can help with pickup and shipping if anyone here wants it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 16:41:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:41:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple ][ Copam EPROM Writer documentation? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 25, 7 11:10:53 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone have the documentation for the Copam EPROM Writer for the > Apple ][? It's got a ZIF socket on it and the software in ROM, but I am > having trouble reading any EPROMs so I want to make sure I'm inserting > them properly (the board and socket have no markings). The think I'd do first is find out which pin of that ZIF socket is grounded. It's very unusual for a programmer to put any form of switching circuit in the ground pin, that one is hard wired. And it'll tell you which way round to insert the EPROMs. -tony From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Aug 26 17:11:33 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 15:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: Curious, I tried the other one I had and it didn't work with the 2716 module either. But when I tried it with the 2708 Gang module that it came wih it worked fine. Suspecting a bad module, I tried the 2708 Gang module in the first one but it didn't work with that either. So not only the 1st M900 I have is bad but so is the 2716 module that came with it. Doubly weird. The manual has a very good troubleshooting section. When I have some time I'll try to find out what the problem is. In the meantime, I sure wish I could get this Apple ][ Copman EPROM Writer card I've got working. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 18:51:18 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:51:18 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: > From: sellam at vintagetech.com> > The manual has a very good troubleshooting section. When I have some time > I'll try to find out what the problem is. In the meantime, I sure wish I > could get this Apple ][ Copman EPROM Writer card I've got working.> Hi Sellam The card can't be too complicated. Why not do a little reverse engineering on it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Aug 26 19:14:19 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 01:14:19 +0100 Subject: HP computers on Stargate SG-1 References: <172797.48436.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com><00ba01c7e5eb$6fc25330$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <000601c7e83f$36822130$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Oh they were real, all right. The "computers" in the Time >Tunnel were sections of the maintenance consoles.... >....See my web page for more.... Thanks for the info, very interesting web page! :-) TTFN - Pete. From scheefj at netscape.net Sun Aug 26 19:21:11 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 20:21:11 -0400 Subject: Model 100 tape archiving question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D218F7.8030107@netscape.net> Rich, Well, why not copy the tapes to a M100 and then transfer the resulting files from the M100 to a PC? What do you mean by a data extraction? What is on the tapes? Jim rcini at optonline.net wrote: > All: > > While cleaning up the shop I found a few Tandy Model 100 cassette tapes. > What is the best way to archive them? I?d like to do two things ? first, > make a reproducable copy. Second, have a data extraction so I can add > support for them to the VirtualT emulator. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 26 20:35:21 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 21:35:21 -0400 Subject: Model 100 tape archiving question In-Reply-To: <46D218F7.8030107@netscape.net> Message-ID: Jim: I'm kind of fishing around for the best way to make the tapes reproducible and use them with an emulator. Now, I may make WAV files of the tapes and experiment playing the WAV files back into the M100 and see if that works. If so, problem solved. I didn't think of using the M100 as a conduit for the programs themselves, as you suggested. Many times you can take the raw media image and directly extract the program data. The MTAP program for the Commodore tapes does this for use with WinVICE. It connects a C2N cassette right to the parallel port and converts the audio data directly to a binary file for use with WinVICE. Rich On 8/26/07 8:21 PM, "scheefj at netscape.net" wrote: > Rich, > > Well, why not copy the tapes to a M100 and then transfer the resulting > files from the M100 to a PC? > > What do you mean by a data extraction? What is on the tapes? > > Jim > > rcini at optonline.net wrote: >> All: >> >> While cleaning up the shop I found a few Tandy Model 100 cassette tapes. >> What is the best way to archive them? I?d like to do two things ? first, >> make a reproducable copy. Second, have a data extraction so I can add >> support for them to the VirtualT emulator. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >> > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 26 20:47:41 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 02:47:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! Message-ID: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No idea whether he is truely serious or not, but those interested should contact him (see below). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk lamanchaoslo wrote: To: Commodore_Amiga_Retro at yahoogroups.com From: "lamanchaoslo" Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 02:30:16 -0000 Subject: [Commodore_Amiga_Retro] CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! I'm considering selling a 1000CS VR System. At the moment I have two machines that we are about to combine into one working machine. More on the machine here: http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/virtuality.html Please contact me for more info on the condition of the machines, offers etc. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 23:05:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:05:01 -0400 Subject: CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! In-Reply-To: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/26/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > > No idea whether he is truely serious or not, but those interested should contact him (see below). > > lamanchaoslo wrote: > I'm considering selling a 1000CS VR System. At the moment I have two machines that we are > about to combine into one working machine. > > More on the machine here: http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/virtuality.html Wow... I remember playing on a pair of those at COSI, the Center of Science and Industry, in Columbus at their Virtual Reality exhibit 12-ish years ago. My recollection was that they came with Amiga 3000s, but I wonder if the app would be any smoother or faster responding running on an A4000. I presume the TMS34010-based video card would migrate over, but I don't recall if they did anything funny with the A3000 itself, like custom boot ROMs or any shortcuts that would prevent dropping in a 68040 or faster. I think one of these made an appearance in "Hackers" (1995). -ethan From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 26 23:10:45 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 21:10:45 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46D0032B.17999.3DAED91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> > All this talk about DEC switch handles has me wondering exactly what > is being discussed. When removed from a front panel, exactly what > does one of these doodads look like? Here's a nice side view of one of the ones for some of the PDP-8's. There is also a long rocker style, and a sort of triangular style that was used on some of the PDP-11's. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290149624244 Vince From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Aug 26 23:16:25 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:16:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC RX02 Maintenance Message-ID: <1188188185.46d25019ecc77@www.jblaser.org> [NOTE: My apologies for raising issue of magnetic media all over again, but I can never seem to get the search function to work on the archives, so the best I can do is depend on Google to have some of the old threads in it's DB. (Jay, this is not a criticism, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but in my two years on this list, I've never gotten anything out of the ht://Dig searcher, even with a simple word like 'diskette'.)] I've started to image the hundreds of RX0n diskettes I have acquired from various sources for cataloging and preservation. I'm using my real, live PDP-11/23PLUS with a dual-drive RX02 unit, and I've run into something I've never seen before. Recent discussion has gone over the reliability of magentic media pretty well of late, but frankly, I was very, very surprised to see several of these 8" floppies shedding the oxide layer and leaving a transparent ring (okay, I flipped the diskette over hoping spinning it the other way briefly would help) in the substrate I can see through! I was holding the diskette to the light to get a better look and discovered the oxide completely scrubbed off. Track 0 was clearly (pun intended) a goner, so I tried my fingernail (lightly) and could just flake the oxide off of the substrate. The brand is one I've never heard of, ANSCO, and gladly there are only a handful of this brand in my pile. I've heard about this problem, here and elsewhere, but I was not prepared to experience it myself! Anyway, the heads in the drives are now in serious need of cleaning, and I'll probably just dip a little isopropyl on a swap and see if I can get them clean. But I've now found a new problem. It looks like the little presser pad on my Drive 1 is missing on the top arm. That may explain why that particular drive is sometimes less reliable at reading and writing. Q: What's a good replacement material for the presser pad? Can I simply use a little bit of dime-store felt, or is there something more exotic that I should use? Also, since acquiring this system, and others, all with RX02 dual-drive units, I've notices some drives read more realiably than others, that is until I write to the diskette, then the landscape changes again, with respect to which drive will read that diskette reliably again. Q: Is there a source for 8" alignment diskettes? I recall one or two of the regulars on the list mentioning having them. Is there a way to make a duplicate? Or at least to format a diskette on a drive that's been through the alignment gig? It'd be nice to get my hands on one or the other. I'm happy to spring for postage and refreshment. Thanks. - Jared From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 23:43:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:43:37 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46D0032B.17999.3DAED91@cclist.sydex.com> <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On 8/27/07, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > All this talk about DEC switch handles has me wondering exactly what > > is being discussed. When removed from a front panel, exactly what > > does one of these doodads look like? > > Here's a nice side view of one of the ones for some of the PDP-8's. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290149624244 That model goes with the -8/L/e/f/m, and most likely the 11/20. The "long rocker" type I recall from the -8/S/i, and the Digital Lab. The "triangular" type goes with the 11/35/45/70. I don't recall if the Straight-8 uses identical actuators as the ones in the auction above, or not. The tips look the same, but having never seen them out of context, I don't know if they are identical, or merely similar. Personally, if someone ever does replicate actuators, I'd be primarily interested in the -8/L/e/f/m type first, and the -11/34/35/70 type second. For now, though, I'll sit on the sidelines until someone claims success and starts listing prices. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Aug 26 23:42:26 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:42:26 -0400 Subject: CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D25632.4090501@atarimuseum.com> Interesting, I wasn't aware the earlier systems ran on Amiga's, all of the later systems ran on stock PC's with special ISA bus cards installed. I have a full SU2000 system (less the stand) here in the office which I plan to put up onto Ebay shortly. The Company who built them was called Virtuality and they were contracted by Atari to produce the JagVR System. I have a working prototype of one of the systems. Virtuality made Missile Command 3D for both their Virtuality systems and for the Jaguar 64 (it will worth with and without the JagVR helmet & tracker. Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/26/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> No idea whether he is truely serious or not, but those interested should contact him (see below). >> >> lamanchaoslo wrote: >> I'm considering selling a 1000CS VR System. At the moment I have two machines that we are >> about to combine into one working machine. >> >> More on the machine here: http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/virtuality.html >> > > Wow... I remember playing on a pair of those at COSI, the Center of > Science and Industry, in Columbus at their Virtual Reality exhibit > 12-ish years ago. > > My recollection was that they came with Amiga 3000s, but I wonder if > the app would be any smoother or faster responding running on an > A4000. I presume the TMS34010-based video card would migrate over, > but I don't recall if they did anything funny with the A3000 itself, > like custom boot ROMs or any shortcuts that would prevent dropping in > a 68040 or faster. > > I think one of these made an appearance in "Hackers" (1995). > > -ethan > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 00:24:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:24:28 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <46D1FD9C.12336.B952DE1@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2007 at 21:10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Here's a nice side view of one of the ones for some of the PDP-8's. > There is also a long rocker style, and a sort of triangular style > that was used on some of the PDP-11's. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290149624244 Ah, many thanks--now I understand. Would it be possible to mill out the profile in a big hunk of polycarbonate and then slice the paddles off like slices of bread? The result could then be painted. I wonder if you could cast some out of zinc-aluminum alloy using a lost-wax process? Metal ones would be more durable. Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 27 00:52:26 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:52:26 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp><102036.55035.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46D0032B.17999.3DAED91@cclist.sydex.com><005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <007201c7e86e$7316d030$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks": > I don't recall if the Straight-8 uses identical actuators as the ones > in the auction above, or not. The tips look the same, but having > never seen them out of context, I don't know if they are identical, or > merely similar. > > Personally, if someone ever does replicate actuators, I'd be primarily > interested in the -8/L/e/f/m type first, and the -11/34/35/70 type > second. For now, though, I'll sit on the sidelines until someone > claims success and starts listing prices. Here's a fellow replicating switch handles with some success: http://www.engsoc.org/~pat/log/index.cgi/2006/08/index.html http://www.engsoc.org/~pat/log/index.cgi/2007/03/index.html http://www.engsoc.org/~pat/log/index.cgi/2006/01/27#1138422020 That's a Straight-8, and the actuators look identical to the 8/L/e/f/m ones (except for the color scheme). (Clicking the photos leads to a version with higher resolution.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 27 01:25:11 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:25:11 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <46D1FD9C.12336.B952DE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <007e01c7e873$0681c740$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Chuck Guzis": > On 26 Aug 2007 at 21:10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Here's a nice side view of one of the ones for some of the PDP-8's. >> There is also a long rocker style, and a sort of triangular style >> that was used on some of the PDP-11's. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290149624244 > > Ah, many thanks--now I understand. Would it be possible to mill out > the profile in a big hunk of polycarbonate and then slice the paddles > off like slices of bread? The result could then be painted. Sort of, but a couple of the magic bits would be lost that way. Fashioning the pivots, at the rotational center of the things, would require additional work. In addition, the parts you hit with your fingers aren't square -- they are tapered, so there is actually space between the tips, but not between the bases: \ / = (but not so pronounced). That turns out to be an important part of the user interface, making it easier to hit just the switch you want. > I wonder if you could cast some out of zinc-aluminum alloy using a > lost-wax process? Metal ones would be more durable. I think that would work, but it sounds like more work that the silicone molds and plastic resins. Durability isn't much of a problem, except with the pivot pins. (The pivots can easily be drilled out and replaced with a length from a large paper clip, when they break off.) The URLs I gave earlier for the replacement Straight-8 paddles had some nice pictures, which would illustrate the taper and show one with the pivot pins replaced with a metal axle. Vince (Do not attempt to cut a paper clip with your favorite diagonal cutters, as the metal is often tougher than the cutters, and will deform the cutting surfaces.) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 27 02:27:12 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <007e01c7e873$0681c740$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <46D1FD9C.12336.B952DE1@cclist.sydex.com> <007e01c7e873$0681c740$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > (Do not attempt to cut a paper clip with your favorite diagonal > cutters, as the metal is often tougher than the cutters, and will > deform the cutting surfaces.) And the next time you clip your nails you'll wind up with notches in your nails. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at corti-net.de Mon Aug 27 03:23:21 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:23:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP 264x firmware listing In-Reply-To: <46D1BAA9.7080705@bitsavers.org> References: <46D1BAA9.7080705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > The GMD Reduction Machine used an HP 264x series terminal with modified > firmware as an I/O device. Listings can be found at: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/gmd/reductionMachine/terminal > > Of particular interest is 2.file.pdf which appears to be firmware for > controlling the tape drives. If you don't have the complete firmware listings of the HP 2648, I have it. There are several binders that cover tape, graphics, terminal, I/O and so on. I can try to scan it if you like. I also have the complete maintenance manuals for the terminal and interface boards, including schematics, but they are difficult to scan due to the paper size. Christian From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 27 08:15:27 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:15:27 -0500 Subject: CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! In-Reply-To: <46D25632.4090501@atarimuseum.com> References: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <46D25632.4090501@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070827081020.05284f80@mail> At 11:42 PM 8/26/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Interesting, I wasn't aware the earlier systems ran on Amiga's, all of the later systems ran on stock PC's with special ISA bus cards installed. Typical Atari historical revisionist blinders. :-) I remember playing the pterodactyl game in Commodore's booth at a show. Ethan's CoSI anecdote reminds me of an Amiga-based mech battle multiplayer I tried in Chicago, but I don't think that was the same Virtuality system. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 08:34:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:34:34 -0400 Subject: Model 100 tape archiving question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D2D2EA.3000906@gmail.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > While cleaning up the shop I found a few Tandy Model 100 cassette tapes. > What is the best way to archive them? I?d like to do two things ? first, > make a reproducable copy. Second, have a data extraction so I can add > support for them to the VirtualT emulator. > > Any ideas? I've had good luck archiving Sinclair tapes using a computer and FLAC compression. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 09:00:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:00:24 -0400 Subject: [rescue] SCSI/IDE laptop adapters In-Reply-To: <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net> <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46D2D8F8.5030808@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > I have a SPARCstation Voyager, which unfortunately has a fairly small > disk (773 MB). But this machine uses SCSI disks and has space for only > a laptop-form-factor drive (well, unless you want to go external, which > is rather suboptimal). I understand there are other machines in the > same boat, such as some Mac laptops (I don't know whether they're > PowerPC or 68k - or perhaps some of each - which is why I'm sending to > both the macppc and mac68k NetBSD lists.) Have you considered trying one of those newfangled 2.5" SCSI RAID array drives? There aren't that many around that are straight SCSI, since most are SAS, but you should be able to find some, and they should be more than big enough. Peace... Sridhar From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 27 09:39:07 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:39:07 -0400 Subject: CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070827081020.05284f80@mail> References: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <46D25632.4090501@atarimuseum.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070827081020.05284f80@mail> Message-ID: <46D2E20B.7060002@atarimuseum.com> Revisionist??? I am not changing history, I'm merely stating I wasn't aware that the earlier versions of the Virtuality systems (which you are correct - they were under a different firm before becoming Virtuality) were on Amiga's... :-p ;-) Curt John Foust wrote: > At 11:42 PM 8/26/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Interesting, I wasn't aware the earlier systems ran on Amiga's, all of the later systems ran on stock PC's with special ISA bus cards installed. >> > > Typical Atari historical revisionist blinders. :-) > > I remember playing the pterodactyl game in Commodore's booth at a show. > > Ethan's CoSI anecdote reminds me of an Amiga-based mech battle > multiplayer I tried in Chicago, but I don't think that was the > same Virtuality system. > > - John > > > From jim at photojim.ca Mon Aug 27 10:12:45 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:12:45 -0600 Subject: [rescue] SCSI/IDE laptop adapters References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net><200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46D2D8F8.5030808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00db01c7e8bc$b9448680$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "The Rescue List" Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [rescue] SCSI/IDE laptop adapters > Have you considered trying one of those newfangled 2.5" SCSI RAID array > drives? There aren't that many around that are straight SCSI, since most > are SAS, but you should be able to find some, and they should be more than > big enough. Another option (if slightly suboptimal as well)... network storage and booting? These machines aren't that fast to begin with, so using network booting shouldn't be that awful. Jim From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 27 10:30:53 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:30:53 -0500 Subject: [rescue] SCSI/IDE laptop adapters In-Reply-To: <00db01c7e8bc$b9448680$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net> <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46D2D8F8.5030808@gmail.com> <00db01c7e8bc$b9448680$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070827102912.079fa298@mail> At 10:12 AM 8/27/2007, Jim MacKenzie wrote: >Another option (if slightly suboptimal as well)... network storage and booting? These machines aren't that fast to begin with, so using network booting shouldn't be that awful. That's an interesting twist, especially combined with the near-portable and ultra-cheap firewall/router/NAS boxes that can be re-flashed with Linux. You could put net-booting and even network-attached storage on a sub-$100 device. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 10:34:21 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:34:21 -0700 Subject: HP 264x firmware listing Message-ID: <46D2EEFD.9060006@bitsavers.org> > There are several binders that cover tape, graphics, terminal, I/O and > so on. I can try to scan it if you like. That would be good to have scanned. I have machine-readable versions of the base firmware for the terminal. > I also have the complete > maintenance manuals for the terminal and interface boards, including > schematics, but they are difficult to scan due to the paper size. I have most of the manuals scanned (there were MANY options available for the 264x). The only practical way to scan the 11 x long sheets of schematics HP uses is with a wide sheet feed scanner (like the Ricoh IS520 or Kodak 2500d) and do it in overlapping sections. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 10:39:59 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:39:59 -0700 Subject: Datapoint Yahoo mailing list Message-ID: <46D2F04F.9010502@bitsavers.org> For people interested in Datapoint, there is a mailing list, but it is not very heavily used. Unfortunately, it is moderated, and it may be several days before messages get approved. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DatapointComputers/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 10:37:49 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:37:49 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 1800 firmware listings Message-ID: <46D2EFCD.2040604@bitsavers.org> I scanned a set of microcode and boot rom listings for the Datapoint 1800 over the weekend, along with some technical information on the later Datapoint machines under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint Hopefully, some more technical info on the later machines will surface. I think Jack Rubin mentioned that he had some. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 10:48:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 11:48:24 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <46D1FD9C.12336.B952DE1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <005701c7e860$3f396920$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <46D1FD9C.12336.B952DE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/27/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Aug 2007 at 21:10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > > Here's a nice side view of one of the ones for some of the PDP-8's. > > There is also a long rocker style, and a sort of triangular style > > that was used on some of the PDP-11's. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290149624244 > > Ah, many thanks--now I understand. Would it be possible to mill out > the profile in a big hunk of polycarbonate and then slice the paddles > off like slices of bread? The result could then be painted. As Vince pointed out, it would take a lot of post-processing to make that work, as the parts have indentations to work around the pivots on the switches, and do not have parallel sides. > I wonder if you could cast some out of zinc-aluminum alloy using a > lost-wax process? Metal ones would be more durable. I think that would only work if you also drilled out the pivot point and replaced it with steel (as is sometimes done with plastic actuators), since I think the soft metal of the pivots wouldn't last long grinding around in the bare holes of the switch frame. I also don't see how that's less work than plastic, but it _is_ an interesting approach to consider. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 11:08:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:08:55 -0700 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <007e01c7e873$0681c740$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <007e01c7e873$0681c740$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <46D294A7.7178.DE32F17@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2007 at 23:25, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Sort of, but a couple of the magic bits would be lost that way. > Fashioning the pivots, at the rotational center of the things, would > require additional work. In addition, the parts you hit with your > fingers aren't square -- they are tapered, so there is actually > space between the tips, but not between the bases: > > \ / > = > (but not so pronounced). That turns out to be an important part > of the user interface, making it easier to hit just the switch > you want. As you mentioned, metal pivots could be fitted and some post-slicing profiling shouldn't be difficult. I remember that our model shop guy milled almost everything non-metallic out of polycarbonate; details were always crisp and painting looked really good. Someone with a well-equipped metal shop should be able to turn these things out assembly-line style. I'm just thinking aloud... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 11:28:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:28:12 -0700 Subject: What to do with old monitors? In-Reply-To: <7220c419bf3a333f5c75e51b8cf9633c@valleyimplants.com> References: <7220c419bf3a333f5c75e51b8cf9633c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <46D2992C.1991.DF4D8A1@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a couple of Mac monitors that I don't have any use for--an M4222 and an M1212. Are these just considered to be flotsam and consigned to the waste stream or does anyone want these? I keep thinking how dirt-common monochrome monitors used to be and how hard they are to find nowadays. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 27 12:25:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [rescue] SCSI/IDE laptop adapters In-Reply-To: <00db01c7e8bc$b9448680$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net><200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46D2D8F8.5030808@gmail.com> <00db01c7e8bc$b9448680$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <200708271728.NAA08525@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Another option (if slightly suboptimal as well)... network storage > and booting? These machines aren't that fast to begin with, so using > network booting shouldn't be that awful. I could, and indeed I think that's how I got the install onto the disk to begin with, but that loses one of the Voyager's more interesting benefits - its (relative) portability. (It's hardly a laptop, but it's smaller and lighter than a lot of luggables, even when you include keyboard, mouse, mousepad, and power (battery or mains brick).) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 12:48:40 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:48:40 -0400 Subject: DEC switch handles (use FDM?) In-Reply-To: <46D294A7.7178.DE32F17@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0a9901c7e68e$70188c70$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <007e01c7e873$0681c740$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <46D294A7.7178.DE32F17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > As you mentioned, metal pivots could be fitted and some post-slicing > profiling shouldn't be difficult. I remember that our model shop guy > milled almost everything non-metallic out of polycarbonate; details > were always crisp and painting looked really good. Someone with a > well-equipped metal shop should be able to turn these things out > assembly-line style. For this much trouble, it would probably be worth just making a proper mold. For the paddle types, and maybe the others, I can see it would be possible to make an el cheapo two part mold, then have a small amount of milling of the finished parts. Two part molds are a whole bunch cheaper than three part molds, which is probably what the originals used. -- Will From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Aug 27 13:11:55 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:11:55 -0500 Subject: craigslist: Commodore PET - $25 In-Reply-To: <46D1EE82.B15D2544@buckeye-express.com> References: <200708261701.l7QH0v5N022916@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46D1EE82.B15D2544@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: I'd be very interested...has anyone ese claimed it? thanks. -Bob >Seen on craigslist: Vintage 1970s Commodore PET working - $25. >Located in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA (near Detroit). >http://annarbor.craigslist.org/sys/406092686.html >I can help with pickup and shipping if anyone here wants it. -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From earl at baugh.org Mon Aug 27 14:15:00 2007 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:15:00 -0400 Subject: Looking to buy some parts to finish up restoring three older Suns... Message-ID: I'm looking for the following to finish up the work on some VME Suns. 1) 6 Screws for Sun VME chassis -- Hex ones for holding VME boards in the chassis 2) 2 of the thick plastic logos -- Sun 3/110 and Sun 4/110. The kind that were mounted to the 3 slot VME chassis. 3) The front plastic panel for a Sun 2/120 I've got some $$ for purchasing these, if I can find a source... Earl From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Aug 27 14:33:54 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:33:54 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer References: Message-ID: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Brent Hilpert sayeth: > > > I've had a few problems with mine, mostly failing semiconductors, all of > > which have been unusual and difficult to replace/substitute, although I > > was quite pleased when I found the 4004 inside. > > I'll say. It's basically a 4004 microcomputer system in there, so it's no > surprise the support chips have been hard to track down. > (It's worse than that, in addition to all the 4004 family chips there are other 'standard function' chips in odd format: some Signetics TTL that don't match directly to 7400 series and which have a habit of failing; the data buffer is composed of type 6508 CMOS RAM chips. Even the LEDs on the 2716 module, which look like ordinary individual LEDs, turn out to have internal current-limiters so you have to add a resistor if replacing them.) Speaking of the Signetics chips, if you wish to take the time on a crap shoot, here's one thing you might wish to try to repair the 2716 module: The problematic Signetics ICs are type 7234(mil-spec)/8234(commercial) (they are just TTL quad 1-of-2 tri-state muxes but different pinout/control from 7400 types). I have had 2 or 3 of these ICs fail in my unit. There are 2 of them in the 2716 module. You might try scavenging two from the non-working base unit and replacing them in the 2716 module to see if it then functions in the good base unit. Note: in idle-state with no 2716s in the MASTER/COPY ZIF sockets the 8 data LEDs on the 2716 module should be ON (open-circuit default to high). > > IIRC, some of the communication adapters if plugged in (serial¶llel > > D plugs) may cause the unit to appear hung. > > Interesting. But nothing is plugged into those. Interestingly, the > serial interface is current loop, for interfacing to a TTY. That feature > really dates these things :) As you can see from the manual there are two RS-232 serial interface options but they require the appropriate firmware EPROM being present and a small adapter which plugs into the parallel(!) plug. My unit had the firmware but I didn't get the hardware adapter, but it turned out to be quite simple to build an adapter with a MAX-232 chip. This may all be more than you want to deal with right now if you are just trying to program some 2716s but if you really want to know what your units are capable of you need to look at the labels on the installed firmware EPROMS and correlate them with the options codes/list in the manual. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 14:55:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *workstation* monitors In-Reply-To: <51ea77730708231718j15275319n69763e16495b2782@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <465782.8499.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > Doesn't do the OP much good out here in Chicago, but > I've got a Sun > GDM20 to give away if anyone needs it. Can you describe the GDM20. I'm familiar with the GDM1950, 1960, and a few others, all of which denote a Sony OEM part number. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 15:00:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5294 Controller, IBM 5251 Display Station Model 12 with Keyboard and manual In-Reply-To: <46CDF7B4.2010601@charter.net> Message-ID: <994758.58899.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Taylor wrote: > Any interest > http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/sys/400141802.html but for location...yes :( Describe the *controller* sil vous plait. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 15:09:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to do with old monitors? In-Reply-To: <46D2992C.1991.DF4D8A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <355140.14584.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I keep thinking how dirt-common monochrome monitors > used to be and > how hard they are to find nowadays. I used to have a well used b & w monitor (18 or 19") atop my old Mac II. It was lovely to behold even with the screen burn. Sharp as a friggin tack. To think one of the surplus dealers (may have saw the ad in Computer Shopper) was offering big bizzaro b & w monitors in the early part of this century (new IIRC). Yes hard to find indeed. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 15:01:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 21:01:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model 100 tape archiving question In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini" at Aug 26, 7 09:35:21 pm Message-ID: > I didn't think of using the M100 as a conduit for the programs > themselves, as you suggested. Many times you can take the raw media image > and directly extract the program data. The MTAP program for the Commodore I don't know if it's any help, but there was a program distributed with the Model 4 TRS-DOS/LSDOS read M100 .DO files and transfered them to Model 4 disk. I think it was called TAPE100. Anyway, sources for LS-DOS 6.3.1 are on the web, I think, and I am pretty sure the TAPE100 program is included. It would be a bit of work to decipher how it works, what the encoding is, etc, but it should be possible. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 15:14:46 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:14:46 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> On 8/27/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > This may all be more than you want to deal with right now if you are just > trying to program some 2716s ... If you just need to program 2716's you could pick up a BP Microsystems EP-1 for less than $20 off of eBay. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 27 15:43:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:43:53 -0600 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> <1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> Glen Slick wrote: > If you just need to program 2716's you could pick up a BP Microsystems > EP-1 for less than $20 off of eBay. And what if you don't use ebay? Anyhow the point is fix it -- not toss it out. All I want programed is 28C16's EEPROMS and I can't find a low cost burner for that around. IF COST .LE. $100 THEN CALL SPEND_IT(INCOME) Ben alias Woodelf From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 16:14:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 17:14:48 -0400 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> <1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2007, at 4:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >> If you just need to program 2716's you could pick up a BP >> Microsystems >> EP-1 for less than $20 off of eBay. > > And what if you don't use ebay? Then create an account and use it. ;) > Anyhow the point is fix it -- not toss it out. > All I want programed is 28C16's EEPROMS and I can't find a > low cost burner for that around. > IF COST .LE. $100 THEN CALL SPEND_IT(INCOME) I don't remember the specifics, but does a 28C16 really require any special voltages or pulses for programming? I seem to recall that they aren't difficult to program, but I could be wrong. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 16:23:45 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:23:45 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> <1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90708271423x17c4791ejc6a6e6a32c2d2fe2@mail.gmail.com> On 8/27/07, woodelf wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: > > If you just need to program 2716's you could pick up a BP Microsystems > > EP-1 for less than $20 off of eBay. > And what if you don't use ebay? > Anyhow the point is fix it -- not toss it out. > All I want programed is 28C16's EEPROMS and I can't find a > low cost burner for that around. > IF COST .LE. $100 THEN CALL SPEND_IT(INCOME) > Ben alias Woodelf > If the point is to fix an existing programmer, then fix it. If the point is to program a 2716 (for example) it might be quicker and cheaper to buy a used programmer. If you need to program a 28C16 parallel EEPROM it appears it would be pretty simple to build a circuit to do that, at least for something like the Atmel 28C16 part which only needs a single 5V supply unless you want to Chip Clear. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 27 16:41:37 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:41:37 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:43:53 -0600> > Glen Slick wrote:> > If you just need to program 2716's you could pick up a BP Microsystems> > EP-1 for less than $20 off of eBay.> And what if you don't use ebay?> Anyhow the point is fix it -- not toss it out.> All I want programed is 28C16's EEPROMS and I can't find a> low cost burner for that around.> IF COST .LE. $100 THEN CALL SPEND_IT(INCOME)> Ben alias Woodelf> Hi From what I've seen in the spec sheets, one would just use a slightly modified 2716 socket of any machine. A few lines of code should be enough. No special voltages, just special sequences. All easily handled in software. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Recharge--play some free games. Win cool prizes too! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 27 17:53:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 16:53:00 -0600 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90708271423x17c4791ejc6a6e6a32c2d2fe2@mail.gmail.com> References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca> <1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> <1e1fc3e90708271423x17c4791ejc6a6e6a32c2d2fe2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D355CC.3070904@jetnet.ab.ca> Glen Slick wrote: > If you need to program a 28C16 parallel EEPROM it appears it would be > pretty simple to build a circuit to do that, at least for something > like the Atmel 28C16 part which only needs a single 5V supply unless > you want to Chip Clear. That is what is frustrating at the moment, the few designs I have seen on the web is about 3 chips and a zip socket.But alias the only low cost one I have seen is from the UK, and the VAT and shipping will kill me. I may breadboard up one, but I am not sure if I will use 28C16's or 2732A's yet. Ben alias woodelf PS. That programmer must have cost a fortune to have 4004 in it. I had a EPROM programmer once in a Z80/S100 bus cpu kit about 1982 ( 2 slots?) but the it was lost in moving years ago. Also it I think was toasted with a homebrew power supply failure. I have seen alot of 8080 systems talked about very little on kit computers on the net. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 27 19:13:43 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:13:43 -0500 Subject: CS1000 Virtual Reality system for sale! In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070827081020.05284f80@mail> References: <991419.62437.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <46D25632.4090501@atarimuseum.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070827081020.05284f80@mail> Message-ID: <46D368B7.3040905@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > Ethan's CoSI anecdote reminds me of an Amiga-based mech battle > multiplayer I tried in Chicago, but I don't think that was the > same Virtuality system. Yes. The mech thing was at North Pier in the early 1990s and was textured. I also remember it being incredibly slow (no more than about 5 frames per second). I remember that the mech thing was controlled by one or more 286s running netware (I caught one of them booting up before the game). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Aug 27 21:17:44 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:17:44 -0400 Subject: WTD: Epson PF-10 Drive Utility Disk In-Reply-To: <200708261703.l7QH27f5022967@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070827221524.02c2be00@mail.degnanco.net> I'm looking for a copy of the utility disk that went with the PF-10 disk drive, used with the Epson Geneva PX-8 laptop. Alternatively is there a ROM that has the commands to re-build a utility disk? Thanks. Bill From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Aug 28 01:42:51 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 03:42:51 -0300 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca><1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <07ee01c7e93e$ad083970$f0fea8c0@alpha> > All I want programed is 28C16's EEPROMS and I can't find a > low cost burner for that around. > IF COST .LE. $100 THEN CALL SPEND_IT(INCOME) Ben, can't you use a willem type programmer? www.willem.org Greetz from Brazil Alexandre From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 28 03:00:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:00:28 -0600 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <07ee01c7e93e$ad083970$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca><1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca> <07ee01c7e93e$ad083970$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46D3D61C.60307@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> All I want programed is 28C16's EEPROMS and I can't find a >> low cost burner for that around. >> IF COST .LE. $100 THEN CALL SPEND_IT(INCOME) > > Ben, can't you use a willem type programmer? > > www.willem.org I tend to avoid that part of the world since getting the Canadian dollar to them is my problem. I can do it but not for small priced items. I need a AC adaptor and a case too. That would bring the cost from about 85 Euro to $125 Canadian. With shipping and other costs I am guessing at $175 Canadian. I am looking at a $190 (US) programmer from the states if i decide to to buy a programmer. I only need 4 (e)eproms burned for my microcode so I may buy 2732A's programmed from some where in the USA. That is a nice programmer but I on the wrong part of the globe. Thanks again. > Greetz from Brazil > Alexandre > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Aug 28 05:09:33 2007 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:09:33 +0100 Subject: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Message-ID: <200708281109.33318.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi, just a quick enquiry. I have aquired a DEC 3000 Model 800 AXP and have a boot problem. The system was booting about once every ten power ups. The status LEDs don't move in the case where the system checks do not 'kick in', they remain on '00'. I have cleaned the entire box and used contact cleaner on all connections, and re-seated the motherboard and IO module. Previously when the system did 'kick in' all tests completed correctly except the keyboard/mouse test. I am using a VT520 connected via an original DECconnect cable. I managed to install both OpenVMS 6.1 (the original disk received with the unit) and OpenVMS 8.3 (although this didn't boot, but probably due to the fact that I selected DECnet but don't have any thick/thin cables connected). Sorry to be so long winded. So the question is, apart from reseating/ cleaning cables/connections, is there anything else I could check/test/ try? I have enough competence to measure voltages and possibly even power ripples and the like, but I don't have a logic analyser. Do the SROMs age at all? It is a standard x512 EEPROM. It has a sticker over the programming window (assuming it has one). Is there a battery backed module that could be causing intermittent problems? Additional information: I intermittently get the following error: ASIC ?? 002 0020 T-ERR-ASIC COREIO address = f0080280 data read = 0 data exp = aaaaaa Code 'EF' is displayed on the LEDs. Does this, and the 'not booting at all' indicate a problem with the SROM/EEPROM? I flashed it recently to version 7.0, the latest, but I think it was having this problem before it was flashed. Thanks, Mark. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Aug 28 06:51:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 08:51:02 -0300 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer References: <46D32722.9144C6D8@cs.ubc.ca><1e1fc3e90708271314l258d9f2x5628253d5caf0d50@mail.gmail.com> <46D33789.507@jetnet.ab.ca><07ee01c7e93e$ad083970$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46D3D61C.60307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <080f01c7e96a$52eda660$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I tend to avoid that part of the world since getting the > Canadian dollar to them is my problem. I can do it but > not for small priced items. I need a AC adaptor and > a case too. That would bring the cost from about 85 Euro > to $125 Canadian. With shipping and other costs I am guessing > at $175 Canadian. I am looking at a $190 (US) programmer > from the states if i decide to to buy a programmer. I only > need 4 (e)eproms burned for my microcode so I may buy 2732A's > programmed from some where in the USA. > That is a nice programmer but I on the wrong part of the > globe. These programmers are sold everywhere, take a look on ebay. But you can build your own, there are schematics, I even built one before I had my Elnec Beeprog. Single faced board! From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 10:23:32 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:23:32 +0100 Subject: [rescue] SCSI/IDE laptop adapters In-Reply-To: <200708271728.NAA08525@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net> <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46D2D8F8.5030808@gmail.com> <00db01c7e8bc$b9448680$1802a8c0@JIMM> <200708271728.NAA08525@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 8/27/07, der Mouse wrote: > > Another option (if slightly suboptimal as well)... network storage > > and booting? These machines aren't that fast to begin with, so using > > network booting shouldn't be that awful. > > I could, and indeed I think that's how I got the install onto the disk > to begin with, but that loses one of the Voyager's more interesting > benefits - its (relative) portability. (It's hardly a laptop, but it's > smaller and lighter than a lot of luggables, even when you include > keyboard, mouse, mousepad, and power (battery or mains brick).) I have a pair of 2.1GB laptop SCSI drives available if you fancy an easier upgrade? I sent this off-list but your MTA rejected it, so I'm resending it on the list. Ed. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 28 12:02:54 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:02:54 -0300 Subject: CBM-Jim Butterfield Message-ID: <01C7E97C.3D8E4920@MSE_D03> The CBM aficionados on this list no doubt all know the name Jim Butterfield and that he passed away in June; here's another little tidbit to add to his bio. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Butterfield m ----- Original Message ----- From: Newsgroups: comp.sys.cbm Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Jim Butterfield Memorial Tribute in Globe and Mail There is a tribute to Jim Butterfield in today's (August 28, 2007) Globe and Mail. Although this link won't remain active long, you can see it online here as well: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/liveslived For those that can't get the tribute, I have reposted the text here. For those that keep asking, the official memorial HAS NOT BEEN ANNOUNCED yet but it will happen and I will let you know when it does. ================ August 28, 2007 (Globe and Mail) FRANK JAMES (JIM) BUTTERFIELD Husband, father, pioneer of personal computing. Born Feb. 14,1936, in Ponoka, Alta. Died June 29 of lymphoma in Toronto, aged 71. by DIANE MCKELVEY Jim Butterfield was the third of four children born to James and Nancy Butterfield; they were originally from England, but moved to Alberta to try farming there. Jim attended the University of Alberta and the University of British Columbia, but he soon realized he was more interested in the Radio Society than in the curriculum. He never finished his degree. In 1957, Jim accepted a job in Whitehorse training technicians who maintained the new microwave system built along the Alaska Highway. >From the first, he demonstrated a gift for teaching. Jim was transferred to Toronto in 1962. Soon he had moved out of the world of microwaves and transistors and, in 1963, began work on the very large computers that were just coming into use. Jim had also begun a second career as a writer and educator on computers. He was intrigued with the microcomputers that started to arrive in 1976 and was soon publishing programs for games and utilities for a number of models. He became a regular contributor to computer magazines and published several successful books He left his day job in 1981: rumour has it he was fired after telling his boss that personal computers would one day wipe out the private wire teleprinter business. Before leaving, however, he made one important connection - his wife, Vicki. Jim's first interest was in Vicki's typewriter: It was top of the line and could type the symbols used for electrical terms such as the ohm. When Vicki asked what the heck that thing was anyhow, Jim came back with a hand-drawn picture of an ohm sitting on top of a stove, which he said was "an ohm on the range." How could she resist? Jim's life took a significant turn in 1988, when his daughter Susannah was born. Embracing fatherhood at age 52, he immensely enjoyed sharing his love of books, restaurants and travel with his young daughter. Never stodgy, Jim enjoyed many a beer with friends at the Toronto Naval Club. He had a sense of humour - one neighbour remembers a telephone conversation in which both Jim and she remarked on how the meow of a Siamese cat had a similar sound to a bagpipe. During the course of the conversation, this eventually led to each holding their Siamese cat under their arms like a proper bagpipe and gently squeezing to produce the requisite wailed duet. Jim was a dreamer and an entertainer, and nothing made him happier than to share his knowledge and enthusiasm with an audience - whether it was a group of machine language programmers or a curious child. (Diane McKelvey is Jim's niece.) From dave at mitton.com Tue Aug 28 13:09:58 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (dave at mitton.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:09:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <1786036.1188324598414.JavaMail.?@fh1036.dia.cp.net> > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 21:10:17 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: DEC switch handles > > Just a thought .. > Wouldn't the model making fraternity have this kind of problem all the time.? > There must be a way to make a mould using an existing part as the template. > > Rod Ask the right question, and the neurons awake from lurking and respond.... Yes, the keyword you want is "resin casting". Google "DIY resin casting" got me a bunch of good hits. Typically small parts molds (either a actual or built prototype) can be made using RTV rubber and cast using an urethane resin. Search using some of those terms and you should be able to find some good instructions. Here is a commercial kit, the seller is not the lowest cost around, but reliable. http://www.micro-mark.com/ Look at product # 82698 There is a reprint article from Model Railroader on fabricating a duplicate of an old out-of-manufacture Lionel bridge grider. http: //www.micromark.com/html_pages/instructions/82708mrrresinart.pdf Dave. (an MIT TMRCie) From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue Aug 28 13:36:43 2007 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:36:43 -0600 Subject: SCSI/IDE laptop adapters In-Reply-To: <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200708240312.LAA01727@msr15.hinet.net> <200708260127.VAA15925@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46D46B3B.5030801@reeltapetransfer.com> what type of scsi connection is it? I assume the IDE side is regular IDE ribbon compatible. Just wondering if it might be useful to get an IDE drive on my scsi-only HP3000. Keven Miller From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Aug 28 13:48:16 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:48:16 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: Message-ID: <001a01c7e9a3$ffbe6f80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Case? What case? Are you sure you're not thinking of a >Softy-II? > > The original Softy is a bare PCB, remarkably similar in >form-factor to the MK14... Hmm, quite possibly. The one I recall seeing pictures of in Practical Electronics was the same size as a ZX-80, and in fact appeared to be in a remarkably similar case (the upper part of the case was rather different). It also used a standard UHF TV set as its display. Oddly, Google doesn't turn up anything at all regarding the Softy or Softy-II (well, other than a link to a PCW archive site which mentions reviews of the two units from 1980 and 1982, but doesn't actually have the reviews available....). Even the "DataMan" site only goes back as far as the S3! :-( TTFN - Pete. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 28 13:50:13 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:50:13 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1786036.1188324598414.JavaMail.?@fh1036.dia.cp.net> References: <1786036.1188324598414.JavaMail.?@fh1036.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <46D46E65.4090901@mdrconsult.com> dave at mitton.com wrote: > Yes, the keyword you want is "resin casting". > Google "DIY resin casting" got me a bunch of good hits. > > Typically small parts molds (either a actual or built prototype) can > be made using RTV rubber > and cast using an urethane resin. Search using some of those terms > and you should > be able to find some good instructions. One thing I learned about this is that not every casting material will behave the same way during casting and curing. Resin-based parts typically retain the shape in which they're made, but some quick-cure casting compounds will warp to an amazing degree as they cure. In other words, buying a casting kit expecting to use some other casting material is not necesssarily a good idea. Doc From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Aug 28 14:04:19 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:04:19 +0100 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <200708281702.l7SH0vl1062836@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708281702.l7SH0vl1062836@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <91B3F325-2B24-466B-ABF0-AD6BAF1CC665@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 16:53:00 -0600 > From: woodelf > That is what is frustrating at the moment, the few designs I have seen > on the web is about 3 chips and a zip socket.But alias the only low > cost > one I have seen is from the UK, and the VAT and shipping will kill me. Shipping is indeed a problem, but you are outside the European Union, you should not be charged VAT. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 14:16:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:16:18 -0500 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/27/07, dwight elvey wrote: > From what I've seen in the spec sheets, one would just use > a slightly modified 2716 socket of any machine. A few lines > of code should be enough. No special voltages, just special > sequences. All easily handled in software. My recollection is that the 2716 needs something like 21V or 26V on the programming pin. As for a modified socket, I have an old "Z-80 Starter Kit" SBC that happens to have a built-in EPROM programmer on one of the three ROM sockets. There's a toggle switch to disconnect the programming voltage, but once enabled, you simply write to the address range of that EPROM socket, and after the data are presented to the ROM, the circuit wiggles the programming pin to write the EPROM. It would not be difficult, in principle, to add this feature to, say, one of the empty ROM sockets on a PET, especially if you had an external benchtop power supply injecting the programming voltage (rather than generating it inside the PET housing). -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 28 14:21:26 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:21:26 -0600 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <91B3F325-2B24-466B-ABF0-AD6BAF1CC665@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708281702.l7SH0vl1062836@dewey.classiccmp.org> <91B3F325-2B24-466B-ABF0-AD6BAF1CC665@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46D475B6.2050705@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > Shipping is indeed a problem, but you are outside the European Union, > you should not be charged VAT. The last time I ordered from Europe I needed a bank transfer of the money. This is a good reason for me to avoid small sums of $$$. Plus the Euro is high right now, the USA $ is low is a good reason for me to stay with the USA. The other reason I avoid ebay is with all the scam shit I get off them. I lost my password so I can't log in, but all the ileagal people can use my login name. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Aug 28 14:40:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:40:08 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer References: Message-ID: <002f01c7e9ab$3e7912f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> That wouldn't be the "Sunshine" brand unit by any chance? >> >> I've got one of those too (along with their PAL programmer >>from around the same time) and it won't work in anything >>newer than an XT. :-( > This is usually a problem of timing loops.... Well, that's what I thought initially. However, I tried the board in at least one '286 based AT clone which was capable of being switched down to 4.77MHz and it still didn't want to know. Not only that, but when installed in an AT class machine, the board simply didn't appear in the computer's memory/IO map - verified by "prodding" the locations it was mapped to through "debug". In addition to this, I also have three "Corvus" network cards (part of a three station "Amstrad Network Kit") which act in a very similar manner when installed in any AT class machine which has cache memory, IE i386+. Disable the cache memory and everything works perfectly (if agonisingly slowly), enable cache and the cards won't respond in any way at all.... TTFN - Pete. From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 28 15:40:41 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:40:41 -0500 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708281947.l7SJlD7M008290@keith.ezwind.net> > > From what I've seen in the spec sheets, one would just use > > a slightly modified 2716 socket of any machine. A few lines > > of code should be enough. No special voltages, just special > > sequences. All easily handled in software. > > My recollection is that the 2716 needs something like 21V or 26V on > the programming pin. As for a modified socket, I have an old "Z-80 > Starter Kit" SBC that happens to have a built-in EPROM programmer on > one of the three ROM sockets. There's a toggle switch to disconnect > the programming voltage, but once enabled, you simply write to the > address range of that EPROM socket, and after the data are presented > to the ROM, the circuit wiggles the programming pin to write the > EPROM. > > It would not be difficult, in principle, to add this feature to, say, > one of the empty ROM sockets on a PET, especially if you had an > external benchtop power supply injecting the programming voltage > (rather than generating it inside the PET housing). It's not *quite* that simple - for the standard (slow) algorithm, you need to hold the data/select for an extended period of time - IIRC something line 50us. Normal selects won't last long enough, although one could construct a wait generator that would do it. If you can hang a socket off parallel I/O ports, you can do it no problem. For faster algorithms, you typically run the VCC rail at a higher than normal voltage to raise the threshold of the internal comparitors, then hit it with shorter (but still long in terms of a normal access) pulses, checking in between each one to see if it's progammed. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 28 15:00:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:00:53 -0700 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <200708281947.l7SJlD7M008290@keith.ezwind.net> References: , , <200708281947.l7SJlD7M008290@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46D41C85.24351.7B0021@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2007 at 15:40, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > It's not *quite* that simple - for the standard (slow) algorithm, you > need to hold the data/select for an extended period of time - IIRC > something line 50us. Normal selects won't last long enough, although > one could construct a wait generator that would do it. If you can hang > a socket off parallel I/O ports, you can do it no problem. That would certainly be my approach if I didn't already own a programmer. A few latches and other "glue" should do the trick nicely. The rest is code. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 15:05:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:05:51 -0500 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) Message-ID: On 8/5/07, Brad Parker wrote: > If you're talking about eprom emulators, "back in the day" I used to > use a device called a "PROMICE". Got one of those myself. It's a verrrry niiice. ;-) > It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very handy. > It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But > gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... Yes... Grammar Engine makes the PromICE. I've known Arvind since before he made his first ROMulator (22 years ago). He was the design engineer for the COMBOARD-I, the first model of 68000-based HASP and 3780 engine from Software Results. Arvind's a great guy to work with, and makes solid products. If anyone on the list ever ends up with a PromICE, I think you'll be really satisfied with it. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 28 15:41:47 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:41:47 +0100 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D4888B.2090707@philpem.me.uk> On 8/5/07, Brad Parker wrote: > It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very handy. > It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But > gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... Ah, but it's so much fun to build your own: http://piclist.com/images/boards/EPROMemuMk2/index.htm (the photos aren't particularly flattering - I've since redone the front panel so it looks fairly presentable) It'll do any 27xx chip from 2764 through 27512, and smaller chips with a passive adapter. I built it to go with my 6502 computer board, and for rapid firmware testing and debugging it's a great tool. It's also good for Gameboy cartridge code development :) The source code is a bit of a mess, and the uploader is Windows-specific, but it works quite nicely. Rewriting the uploader isn't a big job either, just that it works well enough for me and I see no reason to embark on a mass rewrite. And I never did get around to making master/slave mode work either... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 16:08:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:08:33 -0500 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: <46D4888B.2090707@philpem.me.uk> References: <46D4888B.2090707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 8/28/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 8/5/07, Brad Parker wrote: > > It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very handy. > > It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But > > gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... > > Ah, but it's so much fun to build your own: > > http://piclist.com/images/boards/EPROMemuMk2/index.htm That's very nice. > It'll do any 27xx chip from 2764 through 27512, and smaller chips with a > passive adapter. I built it to go with my 6502 computer board, and for rapid > firmware testing and debugging it's a great tool. It's also good for Gameboy > cartridge code development :) I do see one advantage of the PromICE over your device - what you have is _excellent_ for 8-bit targets, but my first-ever project involving an EPROM emulator was with a 68010 processor, thus a need for a wider emulation path. Of course, you _can_ just take two units and stick one in each socket, but then you need two free serial ports, etc. I don't say this to denigrate your project - it really is slick. I'm sure it works beautifully at 8-bits. It's more of a caution to folks following this thread to keep width in mind when shopping or designing an emulator of their own. > The source code is a bit of a mess, and the uploader is Windows-specific, but > it works quite nicely. Rewriting the uploader isn't a big job either, just > that it works well enough for me and I see no reason to embark on a mass rewrite. If I had one of your emulators, I'd certainly at least port the uploader to UNIX. It's not like a CLI tool has that many differences from Window to UNIX (presuming you didn't write a GUI tool, in which case, you just strip out the complicated stuff and stick an fopen() or two at the top ;-) OTOH, my first cross-compiling environment was VAX to MC68K, so we even had to roll our own app for the ROMulator. Fortunately, Grammar Engine had a few VMS customers, so they were happy to leave in the #ifdev VMS code, and we were happy to compile and link the uploader app for them gratis, especially since Arvind used to work for us. I had the pleasure of using the ROMulator on our VAXBI COMBOARD, and given the 20-minute down-up cycle of our VAX 8200, the ability to swap out our COMBOARD firmware without powering down the VAX was an *immense* time savings. It probably shaved a week or two off the firmware development time. I've been a huge fan of emulators ever since, commercial or homebrew. -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 22 17:01:48 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:01:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1187820108.21719.0.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:00 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > I was thus wondering if anyone in England - ideally, around the SE - > had any spare VAXen they might part with for an impoverished > fellow-hobbyist? If you're not too fussed about England specifically, I have a MicroVAX 3300 and a couple of VAXStation 3100s going spare. I also know where you could lay hands on a MicroVAX II. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 22 17:02:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:02:32 +0100 Subject: Broken floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1187558947.19564.1.camel@elric> References: <022901c7e26d$a6ab3820$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> <46C858D1.4060304@e-bbes.com> <1187558947.19564.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <1187820152.21719.2.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-08-19 at 22:29 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sun, 2007-08-19 at 08:50 -0600, e.stiebler wrote: > > Ade Vickers wrote: > > > Hi guys... > > > > > > I have a truly huge number of old 3.5" HD floppy disks which no longer work. > > > Attempting to format them in DOS returns the largely unhelpful "Invalid > > > media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable" error message. > > Same here. Pretty much all of the 3.5" don't work reliably anymore. > > But 9-tracks from the 70's are fine, 8" and 5.25" floppies are fine. > > Just plain weird. > > I have 3.5" disks for my Ensoniq Mirage sampler that are well over 20 > years old. They work just fine. Er. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I posted this about a week ago... Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 22 18:10:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:10:49 -0400 Subject: Gooey rollers again. Message-ID: <0JN700J9H70YRRO1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Gooey rollers again. > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:23:07 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> I picked up a nice Decision Data model 8010 keypunch machine through >> govliquidation. >> It looks to be in good shape EXCEPT some rollers have turned to goo. >> They act just >> like peanut butter, looks like it too. These are not simple round >> rollers but are tapered, >> and there are 16 of them in a complex arrangement. Any ideas on how to >> fix them? >> I guess I'm going to have to find some suitable plastic and turn them on >> a lathe. Probably >> beyond my ability. > >Turning flixible materials is not easy, the darn stuff tends to distort >and not end up the size or shape you expect. Actually is fairly easy once you know how. You need a lathe and a rotary grinder with the right wheel (correct abrasive). Rather than using the usual tool (cutting edge) you apply the grinder mounted on the cross peice so than you abrade away the urethane, silicone rubber or whatever flexible material is used. The process is slow but with care you get excellent results. Learned than from a machinest that was really good. The real trick is getting basic materials to make said rollers even if they are the wrong length and shape but larger. Allison > >I've heard that cooling it to dry ice temperature helps. Liquid nitrogen >is too cold, the stuff then behaves like glass and just shatters. > > >Another posibility would be to make a mould and cast new parts using one >of the 2-part synthetic elastomers. The name 'Devcon' seems to ring a >bell for this, maybe a google search will find something. There's a book >entitled something like 'How to cast small metal and rubber parts' that >covers this, it's aimed at the classic car restoration gugs, but the >principles should be the same :-) > >-tony From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:35:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 00:35:02 +0100 Subject: DEC VT240 terminal Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902318C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Most of your deductions are correct. In 1983, the VT220 replaced the VT100 in text applications, with the VT240/VT241 used where remote graphics (ReGIS and Sixel) were required. So add a keyboard and monitor as per your deductions and an application generating ReGIS or Sixel output and there you have it. Rod Smallwood The DecCollector. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 22 August 2007 23:01 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC VT240 terminal I've just bought the base unit (VS240) for a VT240 terminal on E-bay and know little about it (OK, I know it's a DEC graphics terminal). Perhaps somebody can enlightent me 1) One site i looked at said a VT240 is a monochrome unit, a VT241 is the colour version. Is the only difference the monitor? Can I use a colour monitor with my base unit? 2) On the back are obvious connectors for an RS232 port (DB25), current loop (8 pin mate-n-lock). There's a DE9 labelled 'PR', presumably a printer port, also RS232. A RJ11 keyboard socket, I assume an LK201 will work here (yes?). A BNC which seems ot be composite mono video. And a DA15 plug, also for a monitor. I assume a VR201 links here, or a V241 with the right cable. Also, can I connect the keybaord to, say, the back of the VR201, or do I have to use the RJ11 on the terminal itself? 3) How much is known about the insides? Of course I've taken it apart. It's really easy to get inside, just undo 2 screws on the bottom at the very front and remove the top cabinet shell (lift it up from the front). Then release 2 nylatch fasteners and lift up the metal screening cover. The PSU (a switch-mode unit) is inside the cover. Reach inside and unlug the PSU ribbon cable from the mainboard and remove the cover/PSU. The mainboard comes out by releasing 3 more nyl atch fasteners. On this board, there's an 8085, 2681 (dual serial chip), 8251 (USART, maybe used for the keybaord interface), 7220 (graphics chip) -- along with what seemms to be much the same circuitry as a Rainbow colour card, there are a couple of PALs, I've not checked to see if they're the same as the ones in the 'bow. Pletny of RAM and ROM, and some glue logic. And another 40 pin chip, DC310. For some reason this is saying 'processor' to me. Is it? -tony From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 22 18:39:41 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 00:39:41 +0100 Subject: Tube or not Tube Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902318D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Strangly enough I do have an EHT meter. It's a legacy of building my own colour TV when colour came to the UK in the 1970's. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 22 August 2007 22:38 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tube or not Tube > > > > Before doing anything drastic it crossed my mind that somebody at > > some may have changed the tube in a DEC terminal. > > There are two issues with this one. > > > > a) Where do you get the replacement tube from. > > Typically, from something else. Like other terminals, 12" monochrome > PC monitors, and portable black and white television sets. A lot of > these tubes are Yes. It's almost impossible to get a 'bare' CRT, since often replacing a CRT is regarded as uneconomic, so nobody stocks the spares. I know that when I needed a CRT from a Volker-Craig terminal, I bought a cheap monochrome TV and raided it for the CRT. > interchangeable. I've run across some that aren't, but for the most > part, with black and white tubes, if the base fits, the neck and > deflection angle is the same, and the heater is the same voltage, it's > a good chance it will work. There are baspically 2 types of mono CRT. Thick necks with a B8H base and a 6.3V heater and thin neckes with a modifed B7G base and an 11.5V heater. Almost all mono monitor and termial CRTs have a 90 degree deflection angle. > > b) How do you fit it. > > #include > > Carefully. :) You want to be sure to discharge the high voltage first > (in both the terminal, and whatever you're stealing a tube from!). To > do this, attach a length of wire to the metal shaft of a flat blade > screwdriver, and ground the wire to the chassis of the > terminal/whatever. Hold the insulated plastic handle I would recoemnd against this method. When the contact is made, the peak current can be quite high. High enough to damage the connation between the anode cap and the anode coating inside the CRT. And since that current will flwo where it feels like, it can, if you're not careful, damage semiconductors all aover the chassis. What I do is use my EHT meter. It has a resistance of 800MOhms, and is desigend to handle up to 50kV. Connect the ground lead of the meter to the CRT earth (the metal contacts that touch the outer aquadag coating), and put the probe under the anode cap. Hold it there for a minute or so and the CRT will be discharged > of the screwdriver and slide it under the rubber suction cup of the > picture tube, until you feel the metal clip inside. Typically, this > will be accompanied by a *CRACK* as the high voltage discharges. > (Although, it is possible that the HV dissapated earlier, depends on > the terminal) Do this twice just to be sure. > > To remove the clip, peel up the rubber suction cup, and you'll see > it's a hooked clip that fits into a hole in the tube. Squeeze the clip > together and gently remove it. Normally, once you've freed the edgesof the cape from the CRT glass, you can move the whole thing over to compress one side of the contact and release the other. This avoids having to touch the high voltage terminal (even though it should be discharged.) [...] > yourself). Once the yoke is level, shut the terminal off and tighten > the yoke so it won't move. But not too tight. You don't want to crack the new CRT... The old rule (not to be taken seriously, of course) was to tighten the clamp until the CRT implodes, then back off a quarter of a turn ;-) -tony From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Aug 22 20:41:25 2007 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:41:25 -0400 Subject: Shelby HamFest Message-ID: <1187833285.10606.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey guys, What is advertised as the "granddaddy of all hamfests" is coming up, at the end of this month, in Shelby North Carolina. I have never been to this particular event and will likely attend this years festivities. Does anyone else on this list plan on attending? Has anyone attended the Shelby hamfest before? Thanks, SteveRob steerex ccvn com From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 23 10:46:22 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:46:22 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708230650j3fbdd114h38ebf5b444f51c3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <1187820108.21719.0.camel@elric> <575131af0708230650j3fbdd114h38ebf5b444f51c3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1187883982.6128.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 14:50 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > I have to collect it somehow and I don't have a car - I'm a biker. I > do have a trike, so wide loads and balance aren't a problem, but we'd > have to wrap it weatherproof and strap it on my back seat or luggage > rack! It would probably be easier to ship the 3300 with a car or similar. The VAXStations are PC-sized more-or-less. The big problem for you is I'm in Glasgow, so it might be easier to organise shipping somehow. I'd drive down with them if I had time. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 23 15:20:35 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:20:35 +0100 Subject: Offtopic: Tony, can I get a valid email address for you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1187900435.6577.0.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 20:05 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: As per subject. I forwarded a thing onto you but it bounced. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Aug 23 20:21:35 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:21:35 +0100 Subject: Tube or not Tube( is this the answer.) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902319D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi All With regard to changing the tube in the VR201 and following the advice I had been given. I set about locating a replacement tube. I opened up half a dozen Dec and HP terminals. All with the same result. In all cases the EHT connector was on the short side of the tube and the tube had mounting lugs attached to a metal band arount the front of the tube. Contrast this with the VR201 which has the EHT connector on the long side and a wire frame arrangement to hold the tube in. Comments welcome Rod Smallwood The DecCollecctor From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 22:12:47 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:12:47 -0400 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar project Message-ID: <005201c7e5fc$a5f2f1b0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> I am working on a software project (GPL v2) to make the Catweasel make images of NorthStar hard sector disks based on the Tim Mann cw2dmk code. I have some mostly working code which can make disk images of 10 sector 5.25" hard sector floppy disks. It is not ready for public release. I am looking for some brave person(s) who: 1) own a Catweasel 2) have access to a Horizon or Advantage or S-100 bus computer with MDS controller, and 3) are willing and able to do some testing/debugging/fixing of some rough code. Please contact me offline if interested. The code is not available publicly at this time. Thanks Andrew Lynch From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 24 13:36:09 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:36:09 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA26@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi The MSDOS Hard Drive partition utility on the DEC Rainbow gives you two partitions( E and F.) There's no choice, that's what you get. However neither E nor F are on the boot list. So the question is "How do I set the partitions to C and D and make C: bootable?" Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 24 15:10:17 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 21:10:17 +0100 Subject: DEC switch handles Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA27@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Just a thought .. Wouldn't the model making fraternity have this kind of problem all the time.? There must be a way to make a mould using an existing part as the template. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 24 August 2007 20:16 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC switch handles Dave McGuire wrote: > I have an interest, but only for a handful. Will is right; the > molds will be the killer. I worked on a commercial product a few > years ago that used a two-part plastic chassis that was about the size > of a small book. The two halves were very, very simple...no weird > shapes, and not difficult for mold design. The "cheap" aluminum molds > cost us about $10,000 to have made, and the good stainless steel ones > (last much > longer) were to cost about $18,000. I was looking at DIY molding ... 1 ounce of plastic at most. But you need access to a machine shop ... None around here. See here for the book. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html > Molds for small parts such as switch handles will be cheaper, and > there's a side benefit to their small size: we might be able to design > one mold that can make several different types of switch handles > (PDP8/e-PDP11/20 style, PDP11/45-PDP11/70 style, etc) in one shot. > DEC didn't use that many different styles of switch handles. I got drooling over things like the PDP-12. Don't forget you need several colors. The problem is finding a place that does small runs. > There's still the front-end-loaded cost of having a mold cut, but > after that, the community would never again have problems getting > switch handles. Or you can get custom switches made ... Now what about the switches that go with the handles? Are they special? > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > > > > . > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 18:45:35 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:45:35 -0400 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar project Message-ID: <000f01c7e6a8$de16d140$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> I've started a project to use the Catweasel for making images of NorthStar hard sector disks. I have some working code. It is not ready for public release. Please contact me offline if interested in being a developer. The code is not available publicly at this time. Thanks Andrew Lynch From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 24 19:42:51 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:42:51 -0400 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update Message-ID: <0JNB0018G0NFO4D3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Building my own classic style computer update > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:52:47 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> I have been scrounging for parts for my computer, and I believe I have hit >> the jackpot. A friend of mine set me up with some older Seiko control system >> boards, various revisions, from the late 80s. On them are many ICs, >> including RAMs, Z80 CPUs, and PIOs, as well as some AMD Arithmetic >> processors, a Z80 SIO/2, and other various components. I want to try to make >> my computer from these components. Can anyone point me in a good direction >> for the datasheets, preferably online, for these mostly obsolete ICs? Some >> of them I don't even know what they are, and some I cannot find online, >> presumably because they are obsolete. Here's a partial list of them: >> NEC D780C > >AFAIK it's an exact equivaletn of a Z80 CPU. I've never found a circuit >that works with one and not the other. It is an exact bug for bug and hidden opcode match for Z80/MK3880. >> NEC D770008AC-6 You sure of that number? >> NEC D4364C-15L > >I guess that's a 64K*1 DRAM, similar to a 4164 Might be mask rom if 24/28 pin. >> NEC D8251AC > >Equivalent to the Intel 8251, National Semiconductor INS8251, etc. It's a >USART There are differnt flavors of the 8251, and the D8251AC is similar to the intel 8251A. It's a matter of different bugs. >> NEC D449C 6116 ram 2kx8 >> AMD AM9511A-1DC > >AMD floating point chip > >> Sharp LH0081A >> Sharp LH0082 > >No idea > >> Intel 8339 >> Intel 8325 > >Are you sure you've not given me the date codes? Those are either mask roms or date codes. >> Intel K3235001 > >No diea Thats a mask and date code. Not a part number. Just google "z80" there are a carload of sites for those parts and people playing with them. Allison From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Aug 24 21:56:57 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 03:56:57 +0100 Subject: eBay was RE: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You might want to have a look at eBay lot 160150889916 described as "DEC VAX 4000 4 Node Cluster VMS 5.1H2 - Running" I've no idea whether the reserve is reasonable* - but the lot may be of interest to someone on the list * 0-rated seller - it's anyone's guess Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.4/969 - Release Date: 23/08/2007 16:04 From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 25 03:37:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:37:28 +0100 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1188031048.16921.0.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 23:52 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > NEC D449C > > No idea The code looks familiar - I'm sure I've seen those but I can't think where. Gordon From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 11:35:27 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:35:27 -0400 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar project Message-ID: <000001c7e7ff$1c6d7280$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> I've started a project to use the Catweasel for making images of NorthStar hard sector disks. I have some working code. It is not ready for public release. Please contact me offline if interested in being a developer. The code is not available publicly at this time. Thanks Andrew Lynch From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 00:56:06 2007 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:56:06 -0600 Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers Message-ID: <000601c7e86e$f9c23750$6400a8c0@bear4> I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 machine up and running. It looks like the TU58 drive is suffering from the 'gooey roller syndrome'. I see that people have successfully used 1/2 inch (ID) Tygon tubing to replace the goo. Is there any specific type of Tygon tubing (eg. R3603, R2000, etc.) that is used? Thanks! --barrym From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 01:10:47 2007 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:10:47 -0600 Subject: Vax-11/750 diagnostic tapes Message-ID: <000601c7e871$0792fb10$6400a8c0@bear4> I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 running. I have a box of TU58 tapes that are marked 'diagnostic tapes'. The tapes appear to be used by Dec field technicians, since the tapes are marked 'Property of DEC'. The label on the first tape is as follows: BE-S0290-DE TU58 #1 11750 MICRO DPM PROPERTY OF DEC (C) 1981,83 What do I need to do to execute these diagnostics? Specific commands would be very helpful :-) I have not come across any references to these tapes in the limited documentation I have found. Do I need to boot from the console tape and then boot from the diagnostic tape? As you can probably tell, I am somewhat lost at the moment. I want to ensure the basic machine is running properly before I hook up a disk drive. I have a RDM card that is not currently installed. Is it better to use the diagnostic tapes, or, use the RDM card to detect hardware issues? PS. I am also fixing the gooey roller on the TU58 drive, what type of Tygon tubing do I need? ;-) Thanks! --barrym From sw at tiac.net Mon Aug 27 13:50:52 2007 From: sw at tiac.net (Steve Witham) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:50:52 -0400 Subject: SCSI/IDE laptop adapters Message-ID: Hi, this message is a kludge to get through to der Mouse, but you-all may find it interesting. I have two of those Century CHB25INT adapters (but I'm not willing to sell one right now). See: http://www.tiac.net/~sw/2006/03/scsi_to_ata/index.html I paid about $100 for a single unit direct from Century.co.jp . Mouse, you sent me email about my SCSI/IDE adapter experience. My reply below is proceeded by the kind of bounce I got trying to send it: >From: Mail Delivery System > mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA > SMTP error from remote mailer after initial connection: > host Sparkle-4.rodents.montreal.qc.ca [216.46.5.7]: > 550-I won't talk to 209.86.89.68 until 2007-08-25 17:05:48 UTC, because > 550 it keeps connecting and then not sending anything. >http://www.tiac.net/~sw/2006/03/scsi_to_ata/index.html gives your >address. I was looking for just such a thing, but for a SPARCstation >Voyager rather than an Apple laptop; this page looks very helpful. >Thank you. I haven't had perfect results with the adapter I talked about in that page. I was able to boot, copy 250MB files, etc., but invariably the computer would hang after a while (in a way it doesn't do without that disk installed). It could be The ATA disk The adapter design The particular adapter The driver I have installed, or its timing parameters Apple's SCSI implementation (has been buggy on me before) External SCSI Zip and/or CD drives I had plugged in at the same time. Mac OS 8.1 problem with big HFS+ partition? Some unrelated problem with this OS on this laptop?? The hang-up does seem to happen when using the disk, but then, that's all I was doing! Probably with more time or expertise I could narrow it down since I have two disks, two adapters, and multiple sources of drivers. Thanks for the SCSI details. No, I'm not sure about 66-pin SCSI. --Steve From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 21:29:08 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:29:08 -0400 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar project Message-ID: <002201c7e91b$369b6190$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> I've started a project to use the Catweasel for making images of NorthStar hard sector disks. I have some working code. It is not ready for public release. Please contact me offline if interested in being a developer. The code is not available publicly at this time. Thanks Andrew Lynch From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 28 08:11:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:11:50 -0400 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update Message-ID: <0JNH00HHMJB58B8C@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Building my own classic style computer update > From: "Joe Giliberti" > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:11:28 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>SNIPPAGE>>> >of them I don't even know what they are, and some I cannot find online, >presumably because they are obsolete. Here's a partial list of them: >NEC D780C NEC version of Z80, fully compatable. >NEC D770008AC-6 NEC, may be an 8bit ADC. >NEC D4364C-15L 8x8k dynamic ram 150ns >NEC D8251AC USART, serial same as intel 8251A >NEC D449C 2kx8 CMOS static ram 450ns and two chip enables and retains data down to 2V in standby mode. >AMD AM9511A-1DC AMD arithmetic procesor >Sharp LH0081A >Sharp LH0082 I think these are Opamps or maybe line drivers. >Intel 8339 >Intel 8325 >Intel K3235001 Intel 83xx is likely a 1983 date code. The Kxxxxxx is a mask/date code for a rom based part. None of those cross to any part I can reference and my intel databook set is complete from 1977 through 1993. Those are likely "house numbers" if they are not date codes. Since no other rom parts were listed I'd assume they are ROMS. >Zilog Z8442BPS Z80 SIO, dual serial >Zilog Z8430BPS Z80 CTC, timer counter chip Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 28 08:14:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:14:18 -0400 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update Message-ID: <0JNH00A88JFADLS3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Building my own classic style computer update > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:21:52 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 23 Aug 2007 at 17:20, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > >> > Zilog Z8442BPS >> Serial I/O controller >> >> > Zilog Z8430BPS >> Counter timer circuit > >It's been a long time--but didn't the "vintage" chips have legends >such as "Z80-SIO" and "Z80-CTC" as well as "Z80-CPU"? I liked that >convention--didn't leave much to the "I wonder what the heck this >chip does" mindset. Varied from time to time. Early on that was the case, as ZILOG moved into a greater variety of parts and then CMOS they needed to have part numbers that wer more unique so the Z80-SIO became 844x (X=1,2,3,4 for bond options) and later 84C4x for the cmos versions. Allison From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Tue Aug 28 11:39:31 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers In-Reply-To: <000601c7e86e$f9c23750$6400a8c0@bear4> References: <000601c7e86e$f9c23750$6400a8c0@bear4> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, B M wrote: > I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 machine up and running. It looks like the TU58 drive is suffering from the > 'gooey roller syndrome'. I see that people have successfully used 1/2 inch (ID) Tygon tubing to replace the > goo. Is there any specific type of Tygon tubing (eg. R3603, R2000, etc.) that is used? > > Thanks! > > --barrym > Hi Barry, Congrats on the VAX... If you (like me) ran a tape through before realizing the roller was coming apart, you have almost ruined the tape. To attempt a recovery, clean the tape head with Isopropyl Alcohol and a Q-tip. You need to really scrub at it until the Q-tip comes back clean. Then try to boot the dirty tape again. When it starts to go back and forward over the same area, pull the tape and clean the head again. Repeat until you lose patience or the tape reads all the way through. A couple years ago I started a project to dump all my TU58's (including the 750 diagnostic tapes I have), but suffered a hard disk failure midstream and never went back. If you are interested we can converse offlist about the particulars. Regards, Clint From William.Hensley.ctr at Eglin.af.mil Tue Aug 28 12:37:30 2007 From: William.Hensley.ctr at Eglin.af.mil (Hensley William R CTR USAF 329 ARSG/DD) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:37:30 -0500 Subject: Eclipse MV/7800-U Mini Advice? Message-ID: <5858E8676FB3974B97CFEE281D1F609801AF617D@VFEGMLEG02.Enterprise.afmc.ds.af.mil> Do you still have your 7800? Need more info? Ron From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 28 14:28:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:28:42 -0400 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: <0JNI00BF10R66PI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:16:18 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/27/07, dwight elvey wrote: >> From what I've seen in the spec sheets, one would just use >> a slightly modified 2716 socket of any machine. A few lines >> of code should be enough. No special voltages, just special >> sequences. All easily handled in software. > >My recollection is that the 2716 needs something like 21V or 26V on >the programming pin. As for a modified socket, I have an old "Z-80 >Starter Kit" SBC that happens to have a built-in EPROM programmer on >one of the three ROM sockets. There's a toggle switch to disconnect >the programming voltage, but once enabled, you simply write to the >address range of that EPROM socket, and after the data are presented >to the ROM, the circuit wiggles the programming pin to write the >EPROM. It also requires the "write pulse" to be 50milliseconds long. Write is accomplished by supplying VPP (12, 21 or 26V version dependent) then playing the OE/ and CE/ pins. Allison > >It would not be difficult, in principle, to add this feature to, say, >one of the empty ROM sockets on a PET, especially if you had an >external benchtop power supply injecting the programming voltage >(rather than generating it inside the PET housing). > >-ethan From trasz at FreeBSD.org Tue Aug 28 15:19:53 2007 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:19:53 +0000 Subject: Repairing LA50. In-Reply-To: References: <20070820094316.GA19389@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> Message-ID: <20070828201953.GA79402@freefall.freebsd.org> On 0823T2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got an LA50-RB printer I'd like to get to work. After powering on > > the "Power" light goes on, then, after about two seconds, "Fault" light > > starts flashing. Printer produces no audible sounds, nothing moves. > > Any idea where to start? > > Most dot-matrix printers move the head back and forth at power-on, and > check that the home sensor is working correctly. The fault light that > you're getting could be a result of the carriage not moving at all. > > First check the carriage can move -- with the printer off, try sliding it > along the rails. > > But I suspect the problem is electrical. The fact that the fault light > comes on and blinks suggests to me that the processor circuitry is > working correctly. Maybe it;s a motor driver problem. Maybe it's a loss > of the motor supply voltage (which will be separate from, and higher, > than the 5V logic supply. > > I think I'd start there. Trace out enough of the circuitry to understand > how the motor driver works. THen see if it is getting power, and if it > is, check the logic signals going into it. I did that. I've found out that the motor, marked "TEC CLA45-14602, VOLTAGE 8 V DC, RESISTANCE 10 OHM/PHASE, STEP ANGLE 18 DEG/STEP", is an unipolar one, four phase, and is working. Then I went to check its driver, the power supply... And then I found a blown fuse. Geez, will I never learn to check that _first_? ;-/ Replace the fuse, power it on, power it off, replace the fuse yet again and switch the strange plug-like voltage selector from "SET TO 220V" to "SET TO 240V". Works perfectly now ;-) Thanks :-) -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Tue Aug 28 15:44:23 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:44:23 +0200 Subject: Looking for an UCSD-pascal & Apple-II loan (Zurich) Message-ID: <46D48927.7020008@bluewin.ch> I would need access to a floppy based, UCSD-Pascal capable, Apple-II for a couple of months . This is to assist in trying to get diskimages from my ETH Lilith. Anyone in the Zurich, Switzerland area that could help out ? Current Lilith status : Microcode proms saved, Schematics ca. 70% ready, disk access still very temperamental, the Kermit that is present on one of the disks is missing some libraries... The middle mouse button seems to be broken, and is required for editing files.... But the Pacman implementation is great ! Jos Dreesen From oldcomps at verizon.net Tue Aug 28 16:06:06 2007 From: oldcomps at verizon.net (Frank Helvey) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any AS/400, twinax, old networking/telecom gear collectors near Roanoke Va 24012? Message-ID: <616633.48782.qm@web84112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greetings! I have a collection of older AS/400 parts, including what should be a complete system (I believe its a 9406-200?), plus several twinax printers and some terminals (including one or two color ones), plus some twisted-pair token ring networking bits and some older telecom gear. I'm going to try to sell this stuff, but the larger parts (the AS/400 is in two racks, a "9331 Disk Unit" and a "9406 General Purpose" rack both of which are about 6' tall), plus the 6262-T12 printer are so large and bulky that I'd prefer to not have to put them on a pallet to ship them anywhere. I've thought about parting them out instead or just hauling the lot off to the local electronic recycling company, or finding out if there's anyone on this list that could pick them up. I have two other IBM racks of the same basic type as the AS/400's that have been stripped of the power strips and interior foam; these have a little spot rust on the outside but if someone needs one or both of them they'd be available. They're deeper than most rail systems I've seen can accommodate so using them for rackmounts requires extensions to be made or purchased for the rails. I also don't think they have their doors anymore. So - is there be anyone more or less local to me that would be interested in the large bits? Is anyone on the list needing baluns or twinax cables? I've got lots of those and if you need some I would be willing to ship them prepaid for a small fee to cover my gas to get them out. I have the "MULIC" tape for it around here somewhere but I parted with all of the other tapes some time ago - mostly to Red "Bear" Stricklin on this list. It does have two EMC raid arrays which I presume work. Caveat: I'm an AS/400 ignoramus. I can provide descriptions and pictures of things but what some of this does is beyond me. It all should work, to my knowledge it was working when I purchased it, but I do know that the AS/400 was connected to a more modern smallish AS/400 and part of the system I have was no longer in use. Contact me off-list if you're interested for a list. I hope to have a website up sometime soon with a list of the parts I've got. -- Frank ------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com President home phone: 540.947.2526 Montvale Software Services PC work phone: 540.947.5364 Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 28 16:23:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:23:07 -0400 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A96AF6A-6BCD-4292-9186-44ECF21C4B81@neurotica.com> On Aug 28, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If you're talking about eprom emulators, "back in the day" I used to >> use a device called a "PROMICE". > > Got one of those myself. It's a verrrry niiice. ;-) > >> It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very >> handy. >> It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But >> gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... > > Yes... Grammar Engine makes the PromICE. I've known Arvind since > before he made his first ROMulator (22 years ago). He was the design > engineer for the COMBOARD-I, the first model of 68000-based HASP and > 3780 engine from Software Results. Arvind's a great guy to work with, > and makes solid products. If anyone on the list ever ends up with a > PromICE, I think you'll be really satisfied with it. I have one, but with no accessories (target cable, power supply, etc), software, or docs. Can you give me a run-down on what I'd need to get it operational? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 28 16:23:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:23:42 -0400 Subject: craigslist: Commodore PET - $25 In-Reply-To: References: <200708261701.l7QH0v5N022916@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46D1EE82.B15D2544@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: <9782CC3F-E2E5-444E-BACA-E8A7413970F1@neurotica.com> I emailed the seller this morning, haven't heard back. -Dave On Aug 27, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > I'd be very interested...has anyone ese claimed it? > > thanks. > > -Bob > > >> Seen on craigslist: Vintage 1970s Commodore PET working - $25. >> Located in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA (near Detroit). >> http://annarbor.craigslist.org/sys/406092686.html >> I can help with pickup and shipping if anyone here wants it. > > > -- > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From jzg22 at drexel.edu Tue Aug 28 16:34:03 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:34:03 -0400 Subject: Catweasel Definitions (WAS: Catweasel Northstar Project) In-Reply-To: <200708281703.l7SH2Cj9062872@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708281703.l7SH2Cj9062872@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46D494CB.4000403@drexel.edu> While I cannot help you with the catweasel northstar project, I do know that at least the linux cwtool toolkit is missing a number of disk definitions which are very useful and common. It does NOT normally support: SSDD 5.25 8 sectors/track 160k SSDD 5.25 9 sectors/track 180k DSDD 5.25 8 sectors/track 320k SSHD 3.5 18 sectors/track 720k <- very unusual format SSHD 5.25 15 sectors/track 600k I produced some simple definitions for these 5 modes (by hacking the msdos_dd_5.25 definition, which is DSDD 5.25 9 sectors/track) which will work for reading but are probably not good enough for correctly writing the disks owing to timing differences. Please email me if you want them. It DOES support: msdos_dd which is DSDD 3.5 9 sectors/track 720k msdos_hd which is DSHD 3.5 18 sectors/track 1440k msdos_dd_5.25 which is DSDD 5.25 9 sectors/track 360k msdos_hd_5.25 which is DSHD 5.25 15 sectors/track 1200k and a number of extended msdos_hd modes which use extra tracks and other tricks to achieve the following sizes: 1476k (82 tracks) 1494k (83 tracks) 1600k (20 sectors/track) 1680k (21 sectors/track) <- DMF format used by Microsoft for Win95 disks, among others 1722k (82 tracks, 21 sectors/track) 1743k (83 tracks, 21 sectors/track) 1760k (11 sectors/track, 1024 byte sectors) 1802k (82 tracks, 11-19 variable sectors/track, 1024 byte sectors) a couple variations of those are missing too: (82/83 20 sectors/track; 82/83 11 sectors/track 1024 byte sectors; 80/83 11-19 variable sectors/track 1024 byte sectors). It does not support the 1880k 2m or 1992k fdutils formats. It also supports a number of commodore, amiga, atari, and apple/mac modes, though probably not all of the possibilities. It also does not support the Sirius 1/Victor 9000 9-speed/rate-zone GCR 5.25 format, which probably will require adding an entirely new GCR mode to the source code. Both single and double sided versions of this exist. I can only test the single sided versions because head 1 is inoperable (blown/open? needs further testing, doesn't seem to either read or write) on my Victor 9000. I have not even attempted to write a definition or GCR code for this yet, and could use any assistance available. My goal is to get ALL of this stuff supported by the cwtool catweasel driver eventually. OP: Sending the original request message 3 times was unnecessary. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 16:56:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" Message-ID: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) have extra rom sockets. If you want to obtain a dump of an eprom, could you simply plug them into these spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to capture an image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 17:37:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Programmers... on the cheap In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070809211414.039c1e80@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <47069.83588.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I haven't followed this thread, nor intend to, but there's a book put out by Tab ages ago called the eprom project book or some such. A search on Amazon would probably turn it up real quick. You can build a rudimentary bit banger for next to nothing. Just thought I'd throw that in. I bought an old "blinken lights" style memory burner at a computer fair earlier this year. It's insanely cool. Haven't had time to play with it though. I requested information about it on here, but no one bit. Can't even remember the name of the manufacturer at the moment (Spectrum Dynamics maybe). ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 17:39:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:39:20 -0500 Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers In-Reply-To: <000601c7e86e$f9c23750$6400a8c0@bear4> References: <000601c7e86e$f9c23750$6400a8c0@bear4> Message-ID: On 8/27/07, B M wrote: > I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 machine up and running. It looks like the TU58 drive > is suffering from the 'gooey roller syndrome'. Unsurprising. > I see that people have successfully used 1/2 inch (ID) Tygon tubing to replace the > goo. Is there any specific type of Tygon tubing (eg. R3603, R2000, etc.) that is used? I don't know the particular variety I used in mine - I just went to the Lowe's down the street and bought a foot of 1/2" ID tubing - whatever they had on the shelf. I was unaware of a large amount of varieties of tubing, so I just used what they had in stock, and it worked perfectly. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 28 17:40:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:40:03 -0700 Subject: Building my own classic style computer update In-Reply-To: <0JNH00HHMJB58B8C@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JNH00HHMJB58B8C@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46D441D3.24767.10CB7CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2007 at 9:11, Allison wrote: > >Sharp LH0081A > >Sharp LH0082 LH0081 is the Sharp version of the 4MHz Z80-PIO. LH0082 is the Sharp version of the Z80 CTC. AFAIK, both pin- compatible with the Zilog parts. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 28 18:12:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:12:35 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <002f01c7e9ab$3e7912f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: , <002f01c7e9ab$3e7912f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46D44973.28364.12A7FE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2007 at 20:40, Ensor wrote: > However, I tried the board in at least one '286 based AT clone which was > capable of being switched down to 4.77MHz and it still didn't want to know. > Not only that, but when installed in an AT class machine, the board simply > didn't appear in the computer's memory/IO map - verified by "prodding" the > locations it was mapped to through "debug". I dug mine out to see what might be causing the problem. It looks pretty simple--the "bus" end is pretty much an 8255A connected through a PAL (unlabeled, I suspect this is what it is) address decoder. It shouldn't be that hard to suss out why it doesn't work on a faster CPU. A curious thing is that CMOS 4040's are used as some sort of address counter (24 bit? Would mean that the design could potentially handle some big EPROMs). It's surprising how much I've forgotten since I've last had the box out. It has 4 28 pin ZIFs on the EPROM module (gang programming, I guess) and a note I made somewhen taped to it: "Note: National 27256Q is programmed as half of a 27512A". I don't even think I have any 27256Qs anymore. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Tue Aug 28 18:21:08 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:21:08 -0400 Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can't you also use BASIC to do it? I think it has a "segment" variable or prefix that can be used in a loop to read the ROM . On 8/28/07 5:56 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) > have extra rom sockets. If you want to obtain a dump > of an eprom, could you simply plug them into these > spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to capture an > image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it > wouldn't hurt to ask... > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______ > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 18:26:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: holy crap, another Cat on ePay! Message-ID: <783906.50969.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> AND NO PAYMENTS NECESSARY UNTIL 2008! WOOHOO! http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CANON-CAT-WORK-PROCESSOR-Jef-Raskin_W0QQitemZ110162860314QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I might be selling mine soon. Need a house. Tired of sleeping in the car LOL LOL LOL. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Aug 28 18:28:38 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:28:38 +0100 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer (re: logic probe) References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, <014901c7d646$1e786550$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46B39315.10579.A54770F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008501c7e9cb$2a6da490$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> If the OP is in the UK, then Maplins do a nice one for ?15 (which >>is less than I paid for mine back in 1980). > Radio Shack used to offer one for a reasonable price, but no >longer... Funny you should mention that....mine is actually the "Micronta" probe which Tandy used to sell! Cost me about ?30 at the time, and that was in one of Tandy's sales (ISTR list price was some ?50). Still working perfectly, as is the analogue multi-meter I bought around the same time. BTW Tandy, in this country at least, turned "sales" into an art form....Christmas sale, spring sale, Easter sale, summer sale, autumn sale, the manager's blowing his nose sale.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 28 19:05:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:05:01 -0700 Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D455BD.24094.15A7EB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2007 at 14:56, Chris M wrote: > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) > have extra rom sockets. If you want to obtain a dump > of an eprom, could you simply plug them into these > spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to capture an > image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it > wouldn't hurt to ask... Sure, but with the proviso that the AT sockets are paired as high- order and low-order bytes in a 16 bit word. So alternate bytes represent the content of each ROM. The IBM PC (5150) used a 24-pin 64Kbit ROM, which doesn't match up with most EPROM pinouts (I think that the Moto 68764 is one of the few 24-pin UV EPROMs that will work). So the PC may not be the best thing to use for general EPROM dumping. On the other hand, many ISA boards have EPROM sockets for BIOS extension support. One could use a socket on one of those boards (say, a network card) for the same purpose. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 19:07:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <74202.17351.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> yes, to change the *effective* segment in BASIC/A is something like def seg = &hxxxx, where xxxx represents the start of the 64k segment. You'd still need to create a file, and right off the top of my head Debug offers as much utility for this as anything. Funky little problem is you can only save a file of 65535 bytes with debug, unless someone can tell me how you can save an entire 64k chunk of data... --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Can't you also use BASIC to do it? I think it has a > "segment" variable or > prefix that can be used in a loop to read the ROM . > > > > > On 8/28/07 5:56 PM, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) > > have extra rom sockets. If you want to obtain a > dump > > of an eprom, could you simply plug them into these > > spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to capture > an > > image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured > it > > wouldn't hurt to ask... > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > > ______ > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search > > > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 19:11:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <46D455BD.24094.15A7EB4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <38165.25663.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Aug 2007 at 14:56, Chris M wrote: > > > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) > > have extra rom sockets. If you want to obtain a > dump > > of an eprom, could you simply plug them into these > > spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to capture > an > > image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured > it > > wouldn't hurt to ask... > > Sure, but with the proviso that the AT sockets are > paired as high- > order and low-order bytes in a 16 bit word. So > alternate bytes > represent the content of each ROM. generally speaking, if a cpu board has 2 roms, designated high and low, would they also alternate addresses in the same way. And frankly, why would it matter, if you were just looking to save the contents? You could always stitch the code together afterwards. Didn't the IBM PS/2 models 25 and 30 do this with their ram - one bank had all the even numbered addresses, the other the odd? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From river at zip.com.au Tue Aug 28 19:19:06 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:19:06 +1000 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <200708282302.l7SN143W072970@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070829001903.7B7DE8C25@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, I got two M900 programmers. One works, but the other one doesn't. I only have the 2716 module for them, which is good, but I do not know where you can get other personality modules for them. I use a Microprofessor that has the EPROM Burner expansion for burning my EPROMS. However, I am currently designing my own EPROM burner so I can do 2708 and 8755A chips. I was going to make it all fancy-pants where it would do all the right programming voltages and address translations (for different address pin locations on different chips) etc, but I think it would be easier to make my own "personality modules" which will ease the hardware design. The chips I need/want to program are 2704, 2708, 2516, 2716, 2732, 2732A, 2532, 2564, 2764, 27128, 27256, 2816 and 8755A. I have checked out the capabilities and prices of current EPROM burners, but they are far too expensive for what I want, do much more than I need, and they usually do not do the 2704/8 or 8755A without an expensive personality module. So, in light of my enjoyment in building old computers, I'm building a complete system just for the fun of it and to burn EPROMs for me. As the 2708 uses a few voltages, I decided to use a CPU that also requires a few voltages - the 8080 chip. So, it will be an 8080 system, running 40K of RAM, 8-16K of ROM, a pair of 8255 for EPROM signals (plus extra logic etc as required), an 8251 for comms, and I may even hook up an LCD so I can use it without requiring a terminal. Of course, I could get side-tracked and just use my expanded AIM65 system - as it has all the monitor/debug software, enough IO ports and the built in display...... ;) I could always mod some of my older boards that use 2708 chips to use 2716 chips, but I like the historical accuracy of 2708 devices - and I've got quite a few in stock. Seeyuzz River From river at zip.com.au Tue Aug 28 19:43:53 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:43:53 +1000 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer (2716 programming) In-Reply-To: <200708282302.l7SN143W072970@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070829004350.78ECA8C09@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, The 2716 requires the following signals/voltage for programming:- Read Operation /EP (Pin 18) => Logic 0 /G (Pin 20) => Logic 0 Vpp (Pin 23) => +5V DC Program Operation /EP (Pin 18) => Logic 0 to Logic 1 50mS (approx) pulse, per location to be programmed /G (Pin 20) => Logic 1 Vpp (Pin 23) => +25V DC Verify Operation /EP (Pin 18) => Logic 0 /G (Pin 20) => Logic 0 Vpp (Pin 23) => +25V DC or +5V DC To program one, the sequence is... 1 - Raise Vpp to +25V DC 2 - /EP at Logic 0 3 - Raise /G to Logic 1 4 - Supply Address information 5 - Supply data information 6 - Provide a Logic 0 to Logic 1 45-55mS pulse on /EP 7 - Drop /G to Logic 0 8 - Read data to verify the contents 9 - Get next address location, and go back to step 3 Do this for the required locations you want to program/verfiy. When finished burning/verifying the 2716, you can drop Vpp back to +5V DC for normal read operations. Seeyuzz River From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 28 20:28:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:28:00 -0600 Subject: Biggest Onyx 2 rack configuration? Message-ID: It seems that these Onyx 2 rack systems are pretty available. If I wanted to max out the system configuration, what's the theoretical max? I didn't even know they could gang 4 racks like the one I have. As I understand it, they subdivide a rack into "bricks" and then components (disk drives, graphics cards, etc.) plug into the brick. I believe the bricks are identified by a single letter code. Does anyone know of a reference for this sort of SGI stuff? I know SGI has manuals online, but it helps to know the specific manual to use as a starting point. The racks have an integrated power supply, so maybe they identify the amount of equipment per rack based on power consumption? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Aug 28 20:37:34 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:37:34 -0400 Subject: CBM-Jim Butterfield In-Reply-To: <200708282259.l7SMw4lD072873@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070828213604.01340e58@mail.degnanco.net> While doing some reading today I found this ad http://vintagecomputer.net/commodore/Jim_Butterfield.jpg From Compute!'s Gazette September 1984 Bill D From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 21:03:58 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:03:58 -0700 Subject: holy crap, another Cat on ePay! Message-ID: > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > AND NO PAYMENTS NECESSARY UNTIL 2008! WOOHOO!> > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CANON-CAT-WORK-PROCESSOR-Jef-Raskin_W0QQitemZ110162860314QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > I might be selling mine soon. Need a house. Tired of> sleeping in the car LOL LOL LOL.> Hi You might want to hold off for a while. I suspect that the market is reaching saturation. There just aren't that many that are expecting to pay $600+ for a Cat. For those that are interested in hacking the Cat or writing another printer driver as I've done, look at the Cat info on the DigiBarn web page. I've been doing other hacking since then for anyone that is interested. I've found the video RAM and I'm thinking of creating some graphics functions. Right now I just have a simple XOR to each bit but I realize that a line drawing routine would be good as well. If someone on this group wants to talk offline about the Cat, let me know. It is a remarkable computer. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 28 22:10:19 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:10:19 -0500 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200708290214.l7T2EIgj025979@hosting.monisys.ca> Btw, for an ultra-simple EPROM emulator, use one of the Dallas NVRAM chips (DS1225 (8K) , DS1235 (32K) etc.). Stuff it in a RAM socket of a convienent SBC to program it, and make an adapter by piggybacking a couple of sockets and moving the necessary address lines, mask write etc. to plug it into a ROM socket. One "gotcha" - the internal reset circuit of the Dallas parts trips at a higher voltage than most "resistor and cap" reset circuits, which means your "ROM" isn't present when the processor starts executing - Manually resetting it shortly after power-on works in these cases. I've used this technique on many occation to shorten eprom erase/burn cycles during near-final testing. I've also got a Tech-Tools "EconoROM" which connects to PC via parallel port and works very well as a load and reset on the fly device. Handy in the earlier stages when reloads are frequent. It supports 2764-27512, and I've made adapters to use it in smaller sockets. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 21:21:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:21:45 -0500 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: <6A96AF6A-6BCD-4292-9186-44ECF21C4B81@neurotica.com> References: <6A96AF6A-6BCD-4292-9186-44ECF21C4B81@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 8/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yes... Grammar Engine makes the PromICE. > > I have one, but with no accessories (target cable, power supply, > etc), software, or docs. Can you give me a run-down on what I'd need > to get it operational? Did you look here yet? http://www.promice.com/support.htm -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 21:27:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:27:02 -0500 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer In-Reply-To: <0JNI00BF10R66PI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JNI00BF10R66PI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 8/28/07, Allison wrote: > > As for a modified socket, I have an old "Z-80 > >Starter Kit" SBC that happens to have a built-in EPROM programmer on > >one of the three ROM sockets. There's a toggle switch to disconnect > >the programming voltage, but once enabled, you simply write to the > >address range of that EPROM socket, and after the data are presented > >to the ROM, the circuit wiggles the programming pin to write the > >EPROM. > > It also requires the "write pulse" to be 50milliseconds long. Write > is accomplished by supplying VPP (12, 21 or 26V version dependent) > then playing the OE/ and CE/ pins. I can entirely appreciate that. From reading the docs, there's nothing magical on the software end, so I'm sure the requisite logic is in place to supply the write pulse and to gate in Vpp and twiddle the OE/ and CE/ pins. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 28 22:01:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:01:25 -0700 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: <200708290214.l7T2EIgj025979@hosting.monisys.ca> References: , <200708290214.l7T2EIgj025979@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46D47F15.28856.1FBFFD1@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2007 at 22:10, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Btw, for an ultra-simple EPROM emulator, use one of the > Dallas NVRAM chips (DS1225 (8K) , DS1235 (32K) etc.). > Stuff it in a RAM socket of a convienent SBC to program > it, and make an adapter by piggybacking a couple of sockets > and moving the necessary address lines, mask write etc. > to plug it into a ROM socket. ...or for a 2764, you could probably do the same with an FM1808 FRAM substituted for a 2764 (write 4 copies of the data) or 27128 (write 2 copies of the data). P/ maps to WE/ on the FRAM. Pin 1 (Vpp) either high or low (but not at the programming voltage) is a don't care, as long as it's at 0 or 5v. Or so it appears to me. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 28 22:43:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:43:06 -0400 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: <46D4888B.2090707@philpem.me.uk> References: <46D4888B.2090707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <106351BE-6F36-457B-82AE-C7490A40892C@neurotica.com> On Aug 28, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> It was wonderful. I did a few different boot proms with one. Very >> handy. >> It was made by (I think) Grammer Engine. Try www.promice.com. But >> gosh, they do seem more expensive now that I remember... > > Ah, but it's so much fun to build your own: > > http://piclist.com/images/boards/EPROMemuMk2/index.htm > > (the photos aren't particularly flattering - I've since redone the > front panel so it looks fairly presentable) > > It'll do any 27xx chip from 2764 through 27512, and smaller chips > with a passive adapter. I built it to go with my 6502 computer > board, and for rapid firmware testing and debugging it's a great > tool. It's also good for Gameboy cartridge code development :) That's a damn nice piece of work! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 28 23:00:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:00:18 -0400 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: References: <6A96AF6A-6BCD-4292-9186-44ECF21C4B81@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Yes... Grammar Engine makes the PromICE. >> >> I have one, but with no accessories (target cable, power supply, >> etc), software, or docs. Can you give me a run-down on what I'd need >> to get it operational? > > Did you look here yet? http://www.promice.com/support.htm Ahh, no I hadn't. I pulled down the manuals; my unit looks to be a good bit older than that (though still similar). Upon digging it out and looking it over, it seems to be reasonably well-labeled, with a big DIP switch to select emulated EPROM size, and some jumpers for other stuff. The serial port is an RJ12 modular connector. Ahh, the manual for the unit I have is on bitsavers! I think I can make up the required cables with relative ease. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 29 02:44:08 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) have extra rom > sockets. If you want to obtain a dump of an eprom, could you simply > plug them into these spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to > capture an image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it > wouldn't hurt to ask... Perhaps - if you have such a machine. (I don't.) I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me read ROMs via a parallel port. It's not especially fast, but it's a good deal faster than a serial line....I really need to transfer it from a breadboard to something a bit more permanent. If there's interest I can draw up a schematic and parts list.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From grant at stockly.com Wed Aug 29 03:25:51 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:25:51 -0800 Subject: Kenbak Assembler Available Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070829000453.039de630@pop.1and1.com> Since I had a Kenbak I decided I wanted an assembler for it. It gets pretty annoying writing code by hand... I spent a while researching and found it would be a pretty big deal to write one from scratch. I found "AS" and have written a target code file for the KENBAK. It is still in beta, however so far it works perfectly. The only thing left to do is WARN people when they do something stupid. I designed the mnemonic set for maximum flexibility and readability. As you can see my include file has the parameters in long hand. ; ) Its a goal of mine to get these into schools. I think this assembly language would be pretty easy for someone who has studied basic or C. What do you think? Here is sample output from the assembler building a program from the Kenbak Laboratory Exercises manual. Its the first one in the book. (I threw in NOOP and HALT at the end for fun) I converted the octal listing into opcodes, and then reassembled it. I get the same results. ; ) I've e-mailed the author about including the Kenbak code generator in the distribution and asked if he could add a command line option for using octal in the program listing instead of HEX. ; ) If he won't, I WILL! Let me know what you guys think... Anyone here have a Kenbak? If not, and you want one...I've got a few spots left. : ) http://www.kenbakkit.com Before I include the program listing, here are all of the possible instructions. This 132 IC TTL computer is purely amazing... [ADD/SUB/LOAD/STORE] [Addressing Mode], [Register], [Address] [OR/AND/LNEG] [Addressing Mode], [Register] [JPD/JPI/JMD/JMI] [Register], [Condition], [Address] SET [0/1], [Position], [Address] SKIP [0/1], [Position], [Address] BSHIFT [Direction], [Places], [Register] ROTATE [Direction], [Places], [Register] NOOP (no parameters) HALT (no parameters) macro assembler 1.42 Beta [Bld 55] (i386-unknown-win32) (C) 1992,2007 Alfred Arnold 68RS08-Generator (C) 2006 Andreas Bolsch Mitsubishi M16C-Generator also (C) 1999 RMS XILINX KCPSM(Picoblaze)-Generator (C) 2003 Andreas Wassatsch TMS320C2x-Generator (C) 1994/96 Thomas Sailer TMS320C5x-Generator (C) 1995/96 Thomas Sailer KENBAK-1 TTL Computer Assembler (C) 2007 Grant Stockly WARNING: KENBAK code generator still in beta AS V1.42 Beta [Bld 55] - source file ./a/ken.asm - page 1 - 8/29/2007 0:00:48 assembling ./a/ken.asm PASS 1 1/ 0 : page 0 2/ 0 : cpu KENBAK 3/ 0 : include kenbak.inc 22/ 0 : listing on 23/ 0 : 4/ 0 : 5/ 4 : ORG 004o ;First non-special address 6/ 4 : 7/ 4 : Loop: 8/ 4 : 03 01 ADD Constant, RegisterA, 1 9/ 6 : 1C 80 STORE Memory, RegisterA, Lamps 10/ 8 : E4 04 JPD Unconditional, Zero, Loop 11/ A : 12/ A : 00 HALT 13/ B : 80 NOOP AS V1.42 Beta [Bld 55] - source file ./a/ken.asm - page 2 - 8/29/2007 0:00:48 symbol table (* = unused): ------------------------ *ARCHITECTURE : i386-unknown-win32 - | *BIGENDIAN : 0 - | *BRANCHEXT : 0 - | *CASESENSITIVE : 0 - | CONSTANT : 3 - | *CONSTPI : 3.141592653589793 - | *DATE : 8/29/2007 - | *FALSE : 0 - | *FULLPMMU : 1 - | *HAS64 : 1 - | *HASDSP : 0 - | *HASFPU : 0 - | *HASPMMU : 0 - | *INDEXED : 6 - | *INDIND : 7 - | *INDIRECT : 5 - | *INEXTMODE : 0 - | *INLWORDMODE : 0 - | *INMAXMODE : 0 - | *INSRCMODE : 0 - | *INSUPMODE : 0 - | LAMPS : 80 - | *LISTON : 1 - | LOOP : 4 C | *MACEXP : 1 - | MEMORY : 4 - | *MOMCPU : EBA - | *MOMCPUNAME : KENBAK - | *NEGATIVE : 5 - | *NESTMAX : 100 - | *NON_ZERO : 3 - | *PACKING : 0 - | *PADDING : 1 - | *POSITIVE : 6 - | *POSITIVE_NON_ZERO : 7 - | REGISTERA : 0 - | *REGISTERB : 1 - | *REGISTERX : 2 - | *RELAXED : 0 - | *TIME : 0:00:48 - | *TRUE : 1 - | UNCONDITIONAL : 3 - | *VERSION : 142F - | ZERO : 4 - | 44 symbols 37 unused symbols AS V1.42 Beta [Bld 55] - source file ./a/ken.asm - page 3 - 8/29/2007 0:00:48 codepages: ---------- STANDARD (0 changed characters) 0.01 seconds assembly time 36 lines source file 1 pass 0 errors 0 warnings From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 18:47:29 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:47:29 -0400 Subject: Catweasel Definitions (WAS: Catweasel Northstar Project) Message-ID: <002c01c7e9cd$cbd48ae0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> >While I cannot help you with the catweasel northstar project, I do know >that at least the linux cwtool toolkit is missing a number of disk >definitions which are very useful and common. >It does NOT normally support: >SSDD 5.25 8 sectors/track 160k >SSDD 5.25 9 sectors/track 180k >DSDD 5.25 8 sectors/track 320k >SSHD 3.5 18 sectors/track 720k <- very unusual format >SSHD 5.25 15 sectors/track 600k [snip] Thanks Jonathan, Those definitions you mentioned are all soft sector MFM encoded formats, I believe. I suspect cw2dmk will already decode those since they have the necessary sync marks, etc. Have you tried cw2dmk? It can extract dmk images from any FM, MFM, or RX02 encoded soft sector disk. It is good thing you are doing to add capability to the Linux cw driver for more formats. Thanks for doing that. The more Catweasel support of any kind, the better it is for everyone. Unfortunately, writing software for the Catweasel to make images of NorthStar hard sector format is an entirely different creature altogether. The NorthStar controller has its own unique sync sequence which makes the disks incapable of being read by NEC 765 or derivative FDCs. As a result, it requires entirely custom software to decode. Thank you to those individuals who have been of invaluable help to me in getting this far with the project (you know who you are!). Here is a bit of technical background on the problem from the NorthStar floppy disk controller. The NorthStar double density sync sequence is 32 $00's followed by $FB, another $FB, 512 bytes of data, and then a one byte checksum. The single density sync is similar. The NorthStar timing sequences is based on the ten sector holes and one index hole. I found the index hole because it is between two sector holes. The sequence is something like this: Gap 1 24 mS Gap 2 24 mS Gap 3 12 mS <- index hole passed by Gap 4 12 mS <- start of sector 0 Gap 5 24 mS . . . Gap 11 24 mS My prototype code is currently two parts: the first is a modified utility to make a raw image, and the second is another utility which extracts the data from the bit sequence. I can make images with my code but it is only in the "proof of concept" stage. It is way too crude for a general release and that is why I am asking for some volunteers to help (re)write it and test it to bring the code up to some reasonable level of decency before any release. Here is a sample dump from the imaging tool of a disk. It is the NorthStar DOS 5.0 Double Density boot disk. It is the one which comes with the Dave Dunfield NorthStar Horizon simulator and tool set. I created an actual boot floppy on my Horizon and used my Catweasel station to create the image. http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/out3.zip >OP: Sending the original request message 3 times was unnecessary. I entirely agree and I apologize for sending multiple posts. Believe me, it was not my plan for three postings. I first posted Thursday last week but my messages did not show up in the archive until today for some unknown reason. I read the list by reading the archive of messages and I thought my messages were going into the bit bucket. I suspect the cctech mailing list was having some sort of problem. Sorry for the repeats. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 28 19:02:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:02:40 -0400 Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers Message-ID: <0JNI007L7DGGGBN7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Gooey TU58 rollers > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:39:20 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/27/07, B M wrote: >> I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 machine up and running. It looks like the TU58 drive >> is suffering from the 'gooey roller syndrome'. > >Unsurprising. > >> I see that people have successfully used 1/2 inch (ID) Tygon tubing to replace the >> goo. Is there any specific type of Tygon tubing (eg. R3603, R2000, etc.) that is used? > >I don't know the particular variety I used in mine - I just went to >the Lowe's down the street and bought a foot of 1/2" ID tubing - >whatever they had on the shelf. I was unaware of a large amount of >varieties of tubing, so I just used what they had in stock, and it >worked perfectly. > >-ethan I started that many years ago like 1995ish. I spec'd Tygon (brnad name) as that was available to me. Most any generic Vinyl tubing works so long as it fits tight and has enough wall thickness. After about 10 years it tends to get hard, the fix is obvious. Allison From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 29 06:46:55 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:46:55 -0400 Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:02:40 EDT." <0JNI007L7DGGGBN7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200708291146.l7TBkt3i011349@mwave.heeltoe.com> Allison wrote: > >I started that many years ago like 1995ish. I spec'd Tygon (brnad name) >as that was available to me. Most any generic Vinyl tubing works so long >as it fits tight and has enough wall thickness. I have some industrial food service tubing I got a while back which works well. I think it's Tygon. If whom ever has the 750 will email me their address I'll send you a 6" section which should be enough for the next 20 years. I had to buy 10' so I have some extra :-) -brad From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Aug 29 08:13:51 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:13:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. Message-ID: > The MSDOS Hard Drive partition utility on the DEC Rainbow gives you > two partitions( E and F.) > There's no choice, that's what you get. However neither E nor F are on > the boot list. > So the question is "How do I set the partitions to C and D and make C: > bootable?" On a Rainbow, drives C and D always refer to the third and fourth floppy drives. Your hard drive is set up properly right now. To boot from the hard drive, you'll need to choose 'W' for Winchester hard drive at the boot menu. If you are using a Rainbow 100-A, this option is not present in the boot menu, and you're out of luck as far as booting to the hard disk is concerned (I beleive). If you have a 100-B or 100+ (which is just a B anyway), The W option should be present on the main menu. SImply select W and another menu may or may not appear allowing you to choose which partition to boot from. You can quickly tell if you have a 100 A or B by either: 1. Looking at the model number on the back of the unit near the power plug (PC-100-A is a Rainbow 100 A, PC-100-B or -B2 is obviously a Rainbow 100 B) 2. Looking at the firmware version on the boot menu ( Version 4.XX or less is a Rainbow 100 A, Version 5.XX or higher is a 100 B). Hope this helps! -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 29 08:27:12 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:27:12 -0600 Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D57430.3040204@e-bbes.com> Jeffrey Armstrong wrote: > 2. Looking at the firmware version on the boot menu ( Version 4.XX or > less is a Rainbow 100 A, Version 5.XX or higher is a 100 B). Just because we are on the subject already. What is the last version of the firmware ? From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Aug 29 08:31:33 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:31:33 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4002 Terminal found Message-ID: <20070829133133.303430@gmx.net> Here is the card inventory of my terminal: (left card cage front-to-back) TC1 Keyboard Logic TC2 Output Data Selector -- empty slot -- TC4 Scratch Pad Control TC5 Scratch Pad -- empty slot -- TC7 Control Function Decoder TC8 Char Rotor Bypass TC9 Y DA TC10 Y Data Register TC11 IN OUT Data Routing TC12 X Data Register TC13 X DAC TC14 Internal Data Routing TC15 Scan Control TC16 Char Gen Mem -- empty slot -- TC18 Plot Control TC19 I/O Control (right card cage front-to-back) Parallel to Serial Converter Serial to Parallel Converter TTY Port Timing TTY Port Level Conv. (the ejector tabs of the last two boards are yellow and have the words "Do not remove card with power on" on them). The cards all seem to be coded with gaps between their contact fingers so they can't be installed backwards or into the wrong slot. I think I can risk the guess that the missing cards would carry the designations TC3, TC6 and TC17. David Gesswein wrote: > I have the 4002A drawer unit and keyboard maintenance manual. I don't > have the monitor manual. I also have the 611 monitor manual. Not sure > how close either will be to your unit. The 4002A looks similar to the > picture online. It will be a couple weeks before I can scan them if they > are useful. The 4002A maintenance manual should be correct for my unit (it has that designation on the back). Thanks for offering to scan it, it would of course be nice to have it available in digital form. If the missing cards are necessary for the operation of the terminal, I'm afraid I won't be able to do much about it in the foreseeable future. So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From trasz at FreeBSD.org Wed Aug 29 06:06:22 2007 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:06:22 +0200 Subject: Connecting SGI GDM-20E21 to SPARCstation 2. Message-ID: <20070829110622.GA19178@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> I have the following: SPARCstation 2 with GX card (1M mappable, rev 7), SGI GDM-20E21 monitor (Trinitron, OEM from Sony) and 13w3 cable. Obviously they don't work together - the pinouts are said to be slightly different in SGI and Sun. Now, is there any easy way - cut some wires, connect the others - to make this work? -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From padamsdesign at mweb.co.za Wed Aug 29 09:06:43 2007 From: padamsdesign at mweb.co.za (Patrick Adams) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:06:43 +0200 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> Hi Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is able to help me. Hopefully you can. I have a draftmaster 7595A deeply appreciated if you would offer your help. From: Ambrose From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 09:31:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:31:59 -0500 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> References: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> Message-ID: On 8/29/07, Patrick Adams wrote: > Hi > > Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is able to help me. > Hopefully you can. Not being a mind reader, giving a summary of your problem would go a long way to encouraging people to speak up. -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 29 10:15:37 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:15:37 +0200 Subject: Connecting SGI GDM-20E21 to SPARCstation 2. In-Reply-To: <20070829110622.GA19178@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> References: <20070829110622.GA19178@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> Message-ID: <20070829171537.2ae89ecc@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:06:22 +0200 Edward Tomasz Napierala wrote: > I have the following: SPARCstation 2 with GX card (1M mappable, rev > 7), SGI GDM-20E21 monitor (Trinitron, OEM from Sony) and 13w3 cable. > Obviously they don't work together - the pinouts are said to be > slightly different in SGI and Sun. Now, is there any easy way - cut > some wires, connect the others - to make this work? Connect the C-Sync signal from the Sun via an 330 Ohm resistor to the green signal. This will generate Sync-On-Green. If you are familar with a soldering iron you can solder the resistor on the bottom side of the GX PCB directely at the connector. Maybe you have to break the 10 extra pins in the 13W3 cabe, because the SGI monitor may ground the pin that caries the C-Sync signal. The pinout for the coaxial RGB-Pins is the same on Sun, SGI und IBM. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Aug 29 10:28:48 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:28:48 -0300 Subject: HP DraftMaster I References: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> Message-ID: <0be701c7ea51$9986b020$f0fea8c0@alpha> >Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is able to >help me. >Hopefully you can. >I have a draftmaster 7595A >deeply appreciated if you would offer your help. >From: Ambrose Me have will to help but have no crystal ball But knowing the draftmaster, you need a 25-to-9pin serial cable, with full handshake (all nine wires connected), you can find it in www.thehardwarebook.net and do it in your home. Hope that helps! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 13:01:17 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070829105923.F29103@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, der Mouse wrote: > Perhaps - if you have such a machine. [PC] (I don't.) deliberately? > I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and > muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me read > ROMs via a parallel port. It's not especially fast, but it's a good > deal faster than a serial line....I really need to transfer it from a > breadboard to something a bit more permanent. If there's interest I > can draw up a schematic and parts list.... An accessory for the Epson RC20 Wrist computer was a "ROM Roader" (SIC) that was a little box with a ZIF socket and a serial cord (mini-phone) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 13:14:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> References: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> Message-ID: <20070829111018.D29103@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Patrick Adams wrote: > Hi > Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is able to help me. > Hopefully you can. > I have a draftmaster 7595A > deeply appreciated if you would offer your help. The usual problem is getting the right cable to connect it to the SERIAL port of the computer. Joe Campbell's "The RS232 Solution" will teach you what you need to know to make the cable. If you connect a serial device to the parallel port of the computer, you are likely to do some damage. If your computer only has USB (Useless Serial Botch), then get an older computer. Once the cabling is done, then you can start your descent into Driver Hell, looking for an appropriate driver for it. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 29 12:33:50 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:33:50 -0300 Subject: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Message-ID: <01C7EA4A.E05FC240@mandr71> ---------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:19:06 +1000 From: "river" Subject: Re: INS4004D in Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer Hi, Of course, I could get side-tracked and just use my expanded AIM65 system - as it has all the monitor/debug software, enough IO ports and the built in display...... ;) Seeyuzz River ------------Reply: As a matter of fact, the AIM is perfect for programming 2716 & 25/2732 EPROMs; the 24V printer supply is OK for Vpp (and the printer also comes in useful) and of course there's RS-232 for up/down-loading. With an adapter you could even do larger EPROMS 32K at a time. The first thing I did with my first AIM was to homebrew some battery-backed RAM (no Dallas NVRAMs in those days) and an EPROM programmer: an 8212, a ZIF socket and a switch to turn Vpp on/off is all I used, and it plugs nicely onto the expansion connector. I still use the AIM for reading and/or editing ROM images, although better programmers have taken over that function. Later Rockwell also published schematic and software for an EPROM burner add-on, but it had a few more parts than my minimalist version. m From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 14:01:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:01:21 +0100 Subject: eBay was RE: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0708291201i48a0108fvca49a2dbb9a2e263@mail.gmail.com> On 25/08/2007, Andy Holt wrote: > You might want to have a look at eBay lot 160150889916 > described as "DEC VAX 4000 4 Node Cluster VMS 5.1H2 - Running" > > I've no idea whether the reserve is reasonable* - but the lot > may be of interest to someone on the list > > * 0-rated seller - it's anyone's guess > > Andy Ta for the tip! I can't spare that much room, though, and it would be a bugger to move it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 14:08:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:08:58 -0400 Subject: eBay was RE: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: <575131af0708291201i48a0108fvca49a2dbb9a2e263@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0708221100r5ea65b5brd6918d511589a099@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0708291201i48a0108fvca49a2dbb9a2e263@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D5C44A.2080606@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Ta for the tip! I can't spare that much room, though, and it would be > a bugger to move it. You might be able to find someone to split that load with. If it wasn't on the other side of the ocean, I'd have split it with you. 8-/ Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 29 14:12:59 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:12:59 +0100 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: References: <46D4888B.2090707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46D5C53B.8050405@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's very nice. Or so I've been told. You wouldn't be saying that if you'd seen the PCB though. The one I had manufactured looked really slick, the homebrew one is covered in wire patches. Note the schematic says "Rev C" - my PCB is a Rev A, with Roadrunner-wire patches to bring it up to Rev C. > I do see one advantage of the PromICE over your device - what you > have is _excellent_ for 8-bit targets, but my first-ever project > involving an EPROM emulator was with a 68010 processor, thus a need > for a wider emulation path. I did think of that - there's a Slave I/O port. You have one unit set as a master, and any number set as slaves with their own unique addresses. The master takes commands over RS232 and feeds any commands for other units over the SIO bus. But I never wrote the code for that... It could be done fairly easily, just I haven't done it. Mainly because I only have one unit, so debugging would be a pain. > I don't say this to denigrate your project - it really is slick. I'm > sure it works beautifully at 8-bits. It's more of a caution to folks > following this thread to keep width in mind when shopping or designing > an emulator of their own. Good point, but I've only ever done 8-bit work. That might change once I get around to building a Coldfire-based SBC (I've got the chips, I just need the design time), but not at the moment. > If I had one of your emulators, I'd certainly at least port the > uploader to UNIX. It's not like a CLI tool has that many differences > from Window to UNIX (presuming you didn't write a GUI tool, in which > case, you just strip out the complicated stuff and stick an fopen() or > two at the top ;-) OTOH, my first cross-compiling environment was VAX > to MC68K, so we even had to roll our own app for the ROMulator. Porting it is on my to-do list. I'm sorely tempted to rewrite it from scratch, adding Intel HEX read support and Windows/Linux multiplatform compatibility. That's a job for later, though. An optional wxWidgets-based status window/file picker interface might be a neat toy too, but that's an 'if everything else is done' project. In fact, I need to drag all the design docs for the EPROM emulator onto my website at some point... It's a shame I lost all the mechanical diagrams I did in AutoSketch - that was the kick that started me backing things up onto the NAS. Losing a 40GB backup file to a dodgy backup tool (and equally dodgy supplier that attempted to sell me a 'recovery' tool to fix said backup file) was an additional, painful kick that made me start using ZIP and TAR files again... > I've been a huge fan of > emulators ever since, commercial or homebrew. They do make a lot of things easier. I couldn't imagine how much trouble it would be to have written my 6502-MBC's boot block code without the emulator. The logic analyser helped too - especially when I finished off the inverse assembler module and symbol-to-address-label converter. HP 1650 series analysers rock. A bigger symbol table would be nice though - IIRC the limit is a few hundred, but I've got all the BIOS hooks and callbacks in there at least. It's easier to figure out what's going on when you get "JSR PUTCHR" on the display instead of "JSR &FDF0"... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 14:23:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:23:25 -0500 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <20070829111018.D29103@shell.lmi.net> References: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> <20070829111018.D29103@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8/29/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > The usual problem is getting the right cable to connect it to the SERIAL > port of the computer. Joe Campbell's "The RS232 Solution" will teach you > what you need to know to make the cable. I'd wager at first approximation, the usual difficulty is hardware handshaking, or lack thereof. > If you connect a serial device to the parallel port of the computer, you > are likely to do some damage. !!! The fast way to turn Light Emitting Diodes to Smoke Emitting Diodes. ;-) I've seen people toast parallel port dongles by stuffing them onto a Mac-style DB25 SCSI port before, but I've only seen serial-parallel confusion with the Amiga 1000, since they a) chose the opposite connector gender from PCs (DB25M for parallel, DB25F for serial), _and_ b) ran power over the serial and parallel connectors (along with some unusual signals like clock and system reset) which _was_ handy for, say, a host-powered voice-mail modem, but not so handy for trying to attach an ordinary printer over a cheap PC cable. http://www.concentric.net/~Alxevans/a1000ports.html > If your computer only has USB (Useless Serial Botch), then get an older > computer. Indeed, though it _might_ be possible to get a USB-RS232 dongle to work, if you can get the plotter to function with various hardware handshake lines shorted or tied together. > Once the cabling is done, then you can start your descent into Driver > Hell, looking for an appropriate driver for it. Or you can learn HPGL. :-) What I recall, though, from those days, is that each application (AutoCAD, OrCAD...) would have its own bank of drivers. In the case of a DraftMaster (since I happen to have a DM-II), I would expect you'd tell your app that you have an HP GL plotter, and most likely your paper size, and with the possible exception of pen changes, it should work well. I don't ever remember seeing OS-level _plotter_ drivers. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 29 14:44:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:44:57 -0600 Subject: eBay was RE: Anyone got a small VAX going spare? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:08:58 -0400. <46D5C44A.2080606@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <46D5C44A.2080606 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > If it wasn't on the other side of the ocean, I'd have split it with you. > 8-/ Yeah, it looks like a nice little cluster! I've got a 4000/300 VAX sitting in my basement :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Aug 29 14:07:36 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:07:36 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA40@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks ... 60 year old brains forget more than they remember. Needless to say it all came back to me and now it boots off the hard drive just fine. Thanks Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Armstrong Sent: 29 August 2007 14:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. > The MSDOS Hard Drive partition utility on the DEC Rainbow gives you > two partitions( E and F.) There's no choice, that's what you get. > However neither E nor F are on the boot list. > So the question is "How do I set the partitions to C and D and make C: > bootable?" On a Rainbow, drives C and D always refer to the third and fourth floppy drives. Your hard drive is set up properly right now. To boot from the hard drive, you'll need to choose 'W' for Winchester hard drive at the boot menu. If you are using a Rainbow 100-A, this option is not present in the boot menu, and you're out of luck as far as booting to the hard disk is concerned (I beleive). If you have a 100-B or 100+ (which is just a B anyway), The W option should be present on the main menu. SImply select W and another menu may or may not appear allowing you to choose which partition to boot from. You can quickly tell if you have a 100 A or B by either: 1. Looking at the model number on the back of the unit near the power plug (PC-100-A is a Rainbow 100 A, PC-100-B or -B2 is obviously a Rainbow 100 B) 2. Looking at the firmware version on the boot menu ( Version 4.XX or less is a Rainbow 100 A, Version 5.XX or higher is a 100 B). Hope this helps! -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 15:51:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> <20070829111018.D29103@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070829134252.V37953@shell.lmi.net> > > The usual problem is getting the right cable to connect it to the SERIAL > > port of the computer. Joe Campbell's "The RS232 Solution" will teach you > > what you need to know to make the cable. On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'd wager at first approximation, the usual difficulty is hardware > handshaking, or lack thereof. of course. But, considering the lack of information that the OP provided, I figured it might be best to explain THAT as "you'll need a special cable" > I've seen people toast parallel port dongles by stuffing them onto a I've seen serial printers get plugged into parallel ports on PCs. I've even had untrained lab staff ask for gender changers, in order to be able to use "those other ports" (DB25M) for parralel printers! > Indeed, though it _might_ be possible to get a USB-RS232 dongle to > work, if you can get the plotter to function with various hardware > handshake lines shorted or tied together. I am NOT going to attempt to talk a newbie through THAT! > > Once the cabling is done, then you can start your descent into Driver > > Hell, looking for an appropriate driver for it. > I don't ever remember seeing OS-level _plotter_ drivers. Some earlier versions of Windoze (3.10?) purported to. Monte Hanrahan and I were going to hook up a Draftmaster I to a PC, but before we got to it, the college administation came through one weekend, and dumpstered "all that junk", even the stuff that we had in the glass display case! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 16:07:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:07:29 -0500 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <20070829134252.V37953@shell.lmi.net> References: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> <20070829111018.D29103@shell.lmi.net> <20070829134252.V37953@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8/29/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've seen serial printers get plugged into parallel ports on PCs. > I've even had untrained lab staff ask for gender changers, in order to be > able to use "those other ports" (DB25M) for parralel printers! Did they remember to ask for a hammer to make sure they were seated firmly in the wrong ports? ;-) > > Indeed, though it _might_ be possible to get a USB-RS232 dongle to > > work, if you can get the plotter to function with various hardware > > handshake lines shorted or tied together. > > I am NOT going to attempt to talk a newbie through THAT! Fair enough. > > I don't ever remember seeing OS-level _plotter_ drivers. > > Some earlier versions of Windoze (3.10?) purported to. Hmm... I did fiddle with plotters with Unix, VMS, and DOS, decades ago, but I have to admit to never attempting to do it with Windows. > Monte Hanrahan and > I were going to hook up a Draftmaster I to a PC, but before we got to it, > the college administation came through one weekend, and dumpstered "all > that junk", even the stuff that we had in the glass display case! Ow! OTOH, perhaps my DraftMaster II _was_ "all that junk" - I got it from Uni surplus for $25 after it was marked down from $100, since it wouldn't print a test page on command. Turned out to be a jammed pen in the carousel. I'd love to run across a take-up motor and spool for it - right now, it's limited to 3' or 4'-long plots. With the optional take-up kit, you can plot on the entire roll, since the Y motors don't have to support the entire weight of the output side of the paper. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Aug 29 17:05:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:05:46 +0100 Subject: Connecting SGI GDM-20E21 to SPARCstation 2. In-Reply-To: <20070829171537.2ae89ecc@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <20070829110622.GA19178@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> <20070829171537.2ae89ecc@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <46D5EDBA.8090804@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/08/2007 16:15, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:06:22 +0200 > Edward Tomasz Napierala wrote: > >> I have the following: SPARCstation 2 with GX card (1M mappable, rev >> 7), SGI GDM-20E21 monitor (Trinitron, OEM from Sony) and 13w3 cable. >> Obviously they don't work together - the pinouts are said to be >> slightly different in SGI and Sun. Now, is there any easy way - cut >> some wires, connect the others - to make this work? > Connect the C-Sync signal from the Sun via an 330 Ohm resistor to the > green signal. This will generate Sync-On-Green. If you are familar with > a soldering iron you can solder the resistor on the bottom side of the > GX PCB directely at the connector. Maybe you have to break the 10 extra > pins in the 13W3 cabe, because the SGI monitor may ground the pin that > caries the C-Sync signal. The pinout for the coaxial RGB-Pins is the > same on Sun, SGI und IBM. And for HP. For reference, here are the Sun and SGI 13W3 pinouts: 13W3-SGI ================ pin A1 - Red/R-Gnd pin A2 - Green/G-Gnd pin A3 - Blue/B-Gnd pin 1 - monitor type 3 pin 2 - monitor type 0 pin 3 - Composite Sync pin 4 - H Drive pin 5 - V Drive pin 6 - monitor type 1 pin 7 - monitor type 2 pin 8 - digital gnd pin 9 - digital gnd pin 10 - sync 2 (may be ground on some SGIs, eg Indy) 13W3-SUN ================ pin A1 - Red/R-Gnd pin A2 - Green/G-Gnd pin A3 - Blue/B-Gnd pin 1 - n/c pin 2 - n/c pin 3 - sense 2 pin 4 - sense ret pin 5 - Composite Sync pin 6 - n/c pin 7 - n/c pin 8 - sense 1 pin 9 - sense 0 pin 10 - C-Sync ret The pin layout is: () 1 2 3 4 5 () () 6 7 8 9 10 For SGIs, the monitor sense pins are (MSBit first) pins 7, 6, 2. Hi-end machines want pin 1 Grounded, Indigo2 and Indy want it NC. Gnd means zero, NC means 1 For Indy, Indigo2: MonID monitor guessed 110 Single Scan 1024x768 60Hz 15" 101 Dual Scan 1280x1024 & 1024x768 60Hz 16" 100 Idem 19" 011 MultiScan 1280x1024 & 1024x768 21" 010 1280x1024, 76Hz, 16" (82 kHz line freq.) 001 DM-20 MultiScan 1280x1024 76Hz 19" or Single Scan Sony 1280x1024 72Hz 000 1280x1024 60Hz only 111 yields no monitor attached. Default to lowest res / lowest vertical refresh (if nvram variable ``monitor'' not set to ``H'') for hi-End SGI graphics cards: MonID 111 No monitor 110 Single Scan 1024x768 60Hz 15" 010 MultiScan 16" 001 MultiScan 19" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:27:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:27:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tube or not Tube( is this the answer.) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902319D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 24, 7 02:21:35 am Message-ID: > > Hi All > With regard to changing the tube in the VR201 and following the > advice I had been given. I set about locating a replacement tube. > I opened up half a dozen Dec and HP terminals. All with the same result. > In all cases the EHT connector was on the short side of the=20 > tube and the tube had mounting lugs attached to a metal band arount the > front of the tube. Contrast this with the VR201 which has the=20 > EHT connector on the long side and a wire frame arrangement to hold the > tube in. I wouldn't have thought the position of the EHT connector was a problem. I don't rememebr that much about the insides of the VR201, but I would have thought there was enough space to fit the anode cap at the side, even if you have to lengthen the EHT wire to be able to link it up. If you do need ot do that, make sure the conenction is well-insulated, I've been known to use glass tubing, or PTFE rod, suitably drilled, as an issulator. The mouting could be more of a problem. My (limited) expeience was that TVs often had CRTs held in by wire clamps, not lugs on the tension band. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:15:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:15:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gooey rollers again. In-Reply-To: <0JN700J9H70YRRO1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Aug 22, 7 07:10:49 pm Message-ID: > >and not end up the size or shape you expect. > > Actually is fairly easy once you know how. You need a lathe and a rotary > grinder with the right wheel (correct abrasive). Rather than using the What you're describing is known as a 'toolpost grinder' over here. It's a fairly standard (if expensive) lathe add-on. > usual tool (cutting edge) you apply the grinder mounted on the cross peice > so than you abrade away the urethane, silicone rubber or whatever flexible > material is used. The process is slow but with care you get excellent > results. Learned than from a machinest that was really good. It works very well (and it's usef for getting very accurate results on metal too, you can take a much finer cut with a toolpost grinder than you can with a normal lathe tool). Apart from the cost, the other disadvantage is that abrasive dust goes everyway, including into the 'ways' of the lathe. If you don't clean it out very carefully, you will do a lot of damage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:34:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:34:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 28, 7 02:56:34 pm Message-ID: > > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) > have extra rom sockets. If you want to obtain a dump > of an eprom, could you simply plug them into these > spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to capture an > image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it > wouldn't hurt to ask... I should work, but there are a couple of 'gotchas' 1) The AT has a 16 bit data bus, so the 2 'spare' EPROM sockets are mapped to the same address range, one supplies the high byte of each word, the other the low byte (or equivanently, one contians the bytes at even addresses, the other those at odd addresses). This is no real problem, it's easy to take every second byte in software. 2) The EPROMs had better not be a valid PC BIOS extension, or it'll be linked in when the PC boots. I would have thought on an AT, swapping the 2 ROMs round (or only inserting them one at a time) would fix that 3) THe EPROMs have to be the right pinout. IIRC, the PC/AT takes a stndard 2764-27256 type of device, which is simple. The PC takes some odd ROM type, not pin-compatible with the usual EPROMs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:24:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:24:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA26@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 24, 7 07:36:09 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > The MSDOS Hard Drive partition utility on the DEC Rainbow gives you > two partitions( E and F.) > There's no choice, that's what you get. However neither E nor F are on > the boot list. > So the question is "How do I set the partitions to C and D and make C: > bootable?" A Rainbow is not a PC. The hard disk is E: and F:, C: and D; are the second RX50 (2 drives). IIRC, there's an option on the boot menu of later 'bows to boot from the hard disk. If that's no present on your machine, you've got too early a ROM version, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:57:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <000f01c7ea45$d811b2b0$b0ce17c4@patsarchhcdu9x> from "Patrick Adams" at Aug 29, 7 04:06:43 pm Message-ID: > > Hi=20 > > Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is able to = > help me. > Hopefully you can. > I have a draftmaster 7595A > deeply appreciated if you would offer your help. People who've been on the end of one of my hardware faultfinding conversations my think I have ESP, but I can assure you I don't. And you've not told us much about your system or problem. There are manuals for the Draftmaster over on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ , including a hardwre manual (which includes exploded diagrams and a schematic of (At least most of) the processor board (although curiously nothing on the PSU/motor driver board). And a user manual that tells you how to set it up and configure it. ff I'm reading that right, the Draftmaster has both HPIB and RS232 interfaces (2 of the latter). Which are you using? What is your host computer (on this list it could be _anything_)? What cable are you using? What software are you using to drive it? Have you tried the little test programs in the manual? Has this setup ever worked? What's the orobkem you're having? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 18:02:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:02:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <20070829111018.D29103@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 29, 7 11:14:02 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Patrick Adams wrote: > > Hi > > Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is able to help me. > > Hopefully you can. > > I have a draftmaster 7595A > > deeply appreciated if you would offer your help. > > The usual problem is getting the right cable to connect it to the SERIAL > port of the computer. Joe Campbell's "The RS232 Solution" will teach you > what you need to know to make the cable. One ofhte HP manuals I looked it gave details (and wirelists for the cables) to link the Draftmater to (IIRC) a VAX [1]. HP3000, HP150 (either RS232 or HPIB), PC/XT nad PC/AT machines. [1] Considering there were many serial ports available tyhat would work in at least some VAXen, I am suprised that there's only one possible cable... > > If you connect a serial device to the parallel port of the computer, you > are likely to do some damage. Toe the computer, not to the seiral device :-) > > If your computer only has USB (Useless Serial Botch), then get an older > computer. I resemble that remark :-) IIRC there are USB->RS232 interfaces. That should work fine, hardware-wise, with the Draftmaster, but don't ask me about the software :-). I've also seem (expensive) USV-HPIB interfaces, I asusme that would work too. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 29 19:09:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:09:31 -0600 Subject: building a machine room Message-ID: OK, I know some of you have done this -- Henk with his brick PDP machine room in the Netherlands, at least! Looking more closely into the power and other environmental requirements for my Onyx2 and other rack SGI systems, it seems prudent that I shouldn't attempt having these systems up and running without the appropriate environment. Fortunately the electrical isn't too bad -- 220 VAC, single phase. Its more the cooling and ducting part that has me wondering. At the moment, I'm not concerned with creating a building. I'm wondering more about what would it take to build a "machine room" inside an existing structure. Naturally, we're talking about building this on a "collector" budget and not what you would do if money were no object. Assume you have something like a warehouse with a concrete floor but no warehouse-wide cooling situation. Is it feasible to build a small climate controlled room inside this larger structure? Where do you get the necessary A/C equipment for such a thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 29 20:17:18 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:17:18 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708292117.19179.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 29 August 2007 20:09, Richard wrote: > Assume you have something like a warehouse with a concrete floor but > no warehouse-wide cooling situation. Is it feasible to build a small > climate controlled room inside this larger structure? Where do you > get the necessary A/C equipment for such a thing? Depending on how much you're going to be running, there's three options. First, use a wall-mount or windown-mount air conditioner. This runs anywhere from a few tens of $ to a few hundred, depending on where you get the A/C unit from. This is also the least "capable" and least efficient method. Second, if you need more cooling, you can set up a forced-air furnace and A/C condenser, such as you'd find in a typical house. This will probably run a couple k$. These are fairly efficient, and reasonably capable for a few racks of medium density gear. Third, you could go all-out (esp if you need a fair amount of cooling), and get a Liebert CRAC unit. On ebay, you can get a used one for well under $10k. Don't forget you'll either need a lot of potable water (probably $$$ in Utah) or a separate water chiller to run and cool the water the unit uses (with a closed water loop). Or, you can get a direct Freon-cooled unit, etc. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 29 20:26:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: <200708292117.19179.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200708292117.19179.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20070829182511.C47329@shell.lmi.net> > Assume you have something like a warehouse with a concrete floor but > no warehouse-wide cooling situation. Is it feasible to build a small > climate controlled room inside this larger structure? Where do you > get the necessary A/C equipment for such a thing? Sure. and while you are at it, you can blow additional filtered air into that room so that there is a very slightly higher pressure in your room than the outside space. Then any leaks are outwards, and you can have significantly cleaner air in it of hard drive repair, etc. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 29 20:40:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:40:54 -0600 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:26:57 -0700. <20070829182511.C47329@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20070829182511.C47329 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > and while you are at it, you can blow additional filtered air into that > room so that there is a very slightly higher pressure in your room than > the outside space. Then any leaks are outwards, and you can have > significantly cleaner air in it of hard drive repair, etc. Nice idea! So for cooling capacity, do you just equate BTU generating capacity of the machines to the cooling capacity of the A/C unit, after allowing for a comfortable operating margin? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Aug 29 22:29:39 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:29:39 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 / 6809 Message-ID: <28403913-8A34-4F7F-9DE8-C229EE5B95B7@colourfull.com> Hi All, I've decided to eBay my SWTPC 6800 system which was upgraded years ago to a 6809 CPU board. Complete with disk controller and bunches of memory (for the time). I just don't have the time to give it the TLC it needs. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300146415357 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 29 22:59:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:59:26 -0500 Subject: test - please ignore Message-ID: <000701c7eaba$29297d30$6400a8c0@JWEST> Test, please ignore. Jay West From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 29 18:34:09 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:34:09 -0400 Subject: Gooey rollers again. Message-ID: <0JNK002H16SKJKS4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Gooey rollers again. > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:15:58 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >and not end up the size or shape you expect. >> >> Actually is fairly easy once you know how. You need a lathe and a rotary >> grinder with the right wheel (correct abrasive). Rather than using the > >What you're describing is known as a 'toolpost grinder' over here. It's a >fairly standard (if expensive) lathe add-on. My description was for the non-machinist amoung us. > >> usual tool (cutting edge) you apply the grinder mounted on the cross peice >> so than you abrade away the urethane, silicone rubber or whatever flexible >> material is used. The process is slow but with care you get excellent >> results. Learned than from a machinest that was really good. > >It works very well (and it's usef for getting very accurate results on >metal too, you can take a much finer cut with a toolpost grinder than you >can with a normal lathe tool). Yep, I used to use that for post finishing oil hardend stainless steel parts. Heat can distort parts so some post finishing is needed for precision work. >Apart from the cost, the other disadvantage is that abrasive dust goes >everyway, including into the 'ways' of the lathe. If you don't clean it >out very carefully, you will do a lot of damage. If the roller (machined part) is rubber it can make a mess as well. When doing metals coolent was always used and that tended to wash abrasives down but rubber tended to clog the pumps and tubes. Major cleanup job. I used to get the opportunity to use the big Monarch lathe for that job as the head machinist knew if I wanted to use the vertical mill or anything for my projects I'd clean it to his specifications without complaint before and after. I rigged a vacuum setup to pick up the waste for him that worked well. Fair trade in my mind! Allison From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Aug 30 04:00:34 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Personality modules for Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? Message-ID: I don't suppose anyone knows where one can get a set of personality modules for the Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? A manual would be nice also ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Aug 30 04:13:10 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:13:10 +0100 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <200708291702.l7TH1QIJ087481@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708291702.l7TH1QIJ087481@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <633D60C0-CB1E-4E73-B12C-9D386CAB76E9@microspot.co.uk> > > From: "Patrick Adams" > Subject: HP DraftMaster I > > Hi > > Me have a big problem connecting a plotter to a computer, no1 is > able to help me. > Hopefully you can. > I have a draftmaster 7595A > deeply appreciated if you would offer your help. Hi Patrick, What type of computer are you trying to connect to? Mac, PC, a classic micro, mini or mainframe? Which port are you using, serial or parallel? Are you using a network adaptor box to Ethernet? I think my DraftMaster MX has Etherbet built in, but as far as I remember, when we had a prototype of the previous model, it used an external adaptor box. I've connected plotters to Apple ][+, Apple ///, Lisa 1, Lisa 2 and every type of Mac, and if you need a plotter driver for a Mac my company can still supply one. Its not the connection that's difficult, often its that your application does not output the data in a format the plotter understands. Modern machines usually assume the data is going to written into a pixel map (either within the printer as with PostScript, or within the host computer) so that later geometries can partially obscure earlier ones. It is even possible to print from programs like PhotoShop, but it really works the plotter hard, and while runs of a colour are fine, and single dots come out with fibre pens, ball pens rely on movement to get the ink flowing, so can't do dots. Draughting(drafting if you're over the pond) pens are another game entirely. I am replying to the digest, so its possible someone's already answered this. Roger Holmes. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 08:25:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:25:42 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D6C556.6080401@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > OK, I know some of you have done this -- Henk with his brick PDP machine > room in the Netherlands, at least! > > Looking more closely into the power and other environmental > requirements for my Onyx2 and other rack SGI systems, it seems prudent > that I shouldn't attempt having these systems up and running without > the appropriate environment. > > Fortunately the electrical isn't too bad -- 220 VAC, single phase. > Its more the cooling and ducting part that has me wondering. At the > moment, I'm not concerned with creating a building. I'm wondering > more about what would it take to build a "machine room" inside an > existing structure. Naturally, we're talking about building this on a > "collector" budget and not what you would do if money were no object. Not a bad idea. > Assume you have something like a warehouse with a concrete floor but > no warehouse-wide cooling situation. Is it feasible to build a small > climate controlled room inside this larger structure? Where do you > get the necessary A/C equipment for such a thing? I've gotten that sort of stuff on ebay. Just keep an eye on the "Liebert" searches. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 08:54:13 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:54:13 -0700 Subject: Personality modules for Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: sellam at vintagetech.com> > I don't suppose anyone knows where one can get a set of personality > modules for the Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer?> > A manual would be nice also ;)> Hi I've been looking for information of a could of adapters for my Data I/O 19. I have the UniPak but don't have any of the adapters for doing things like the 8748's or 8751's. Someone must have these. All I need is the schematic. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 30 10:10:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <633D60C0-CB1E-4E73-B12C-9D386CAB76E9@microspot.co.uk> References: <200708291702.l7TH1QIJ087481@dewey.classiccmp.org> <633D60C0-CB1E-4E73-B12C-9D386CAB76E9@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070830080852.C74015@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Roger Holmes wrote: > Which port are you using, serial or parallel? With a Draftmaster I? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 30 11:06:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:45 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57DB9CEE-0337-4759-8F7C-7AACBD0A9728@neurotica.com> On Aug 29, 2007, at 8:09 PM, Richard wrote: > Assume you have something like a warehouse with a concrete floor but > no warehouse-wide cooling situation. Is it feasible to build a small > climate controlled room inside this larger structure? Where do you > get the necessary A/C equipment for such a thing? The two easiest ways to deal with cooling are to use fans to distribute the generated heat into the rest of the house (to be removed by the main A/C unit) or to use a small portable A/C unit in the machine room. In my last house I had to use a combination of the two due to the amount of hardware that I was running. The right thing to do, of course, is to install a dedicated A/C unit. Look for information on "mini split" A/C systems...They are relatively inexpensive, reasonably efficient, and very easy to install. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 30 11:09:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:09:12 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Richard wrote: > So for cooling capacity, do you just equate BTU generating capacity of > the machines to the cooling capacity of the A/C unit, after allowing > for a comfortable operating margin? That's what I do...but make that margin very, very wide. Remember, one "ton" (of A/C capacity) is 12,000 BTUs, and one watt is ~3.4 BTUs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Aug 30 12:05:30 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:05:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. Message-ID: > Just because we are on the subject already. > > What is the last version of the firmware ? I can't remember exactly, but the 100A was definitely 4.xx series (maybe 4.12?) while the 100B was definitely 5.xx series (maybe 5.03A). I've never seen different values on any Rainbow, though, suggesting that the boot roms were finalized before manufacturing started and never again updated. Could be wrong, though. Some Rainbow's have different character set ROMs, like the Technical Character Set ROM, but that doesn't change the firmware version on the boot menu. -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Aug 30 02:32:41 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:32:41 +0200 Subject: EPROM emulators (was Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer) In-Reply-To: <200708290214.l7T2EIgj025979@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200708290214.l7T2EIgj025979@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46D67299.800@iais.fraunhofer.de> Dave Dunfield schrieb: > Btw, for an ultra-simple EPROM emulator, use one of the > Dallas NVRAM chips (DS1225 (8K) , DS1235 (32K) etc.). > Stuff it in a RAM socket of a convienent SBC to program > it, and make an adapter by piggybacking a couple of sockets > and moving the necessary address lines, mask write etc. > to plug it into a ROM socket. > Alternative to that is the use of TIMEKEEPER (48Txx) or ZEROPOWER RAMs (48Zxx) which are rather expensive when you hunt for them in the obvious places, but I got lots of them from old Sun IPC/IPX machines before they were thrown out here. Capacity is typically 2Kx8 or 8Kx8 for these devices, newer ones also have 32K or 128K. The timekeeper versions also provide a hardware clock which is useful once in a while. Regards -- Holger From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Aug 30 13:01:50 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:01:50 +0000 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: <083020071801.9814.46D7060E0001B6ED0000265622135396539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >From: "Ethan Dicks" >Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >On 8/29/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The usual problem is getting the right cable to connect it to the SERIAL >> port of the computer. Joe Campbell's "The RS232 Solution" will teach you >> what you need to know to make the cable. >I'd wager at first approximation, the usual difficulty is hardware >handshaking, or lack thereof. >> If you connect a serial device to the parallel port of the computer, you >> are likely to do some damage. >!!! >The fast way to turn Light Emitting Diodes to Smoke Emitting Diodes. ;-) >I've seen people toast parallel port dongles by stuffing them onto a >Mac-style DB25 SCSI port before, but I've only seen serial-parallel >confusion with the Amiga 1000, since they a) chose the opposite >connector gender from PCs (DB25M for parallel, DB25F for serial), >_and_ b) ran power over the serial and parallel connectors (along with >some unusual signals like clock and system reset) which _was_ handy >for, say, a host-powered voice-mail modem, but not so handy for trying >to attach an ordinary printer over a cheap PC cable. Watch out for some AT&T 6300 PCs that used a DB25 for the monitor cable and supplied power to the monitor (at least +12V) through the same cable. A good way to convert an LED into an EED (Epoxy Emitting Diode). As to the HP plotter, I think I have cabling instructions for using it with AutoCAD on a PC in my copy of the AutoCAD 2.18 setup manual. Bob From jrr at flippers.com Thu Aug 30 13:22:20 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:22:20 -0700 Subject: Personality modules for Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30-Aug-07, at 6:54 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> From: sellam at vintagetech.com> > I don't suppose anyone knows where >> one can get a set of personality > modules for the Heathkit 4801 >> EPROM Programmer?> > A manual would be nice also ;)> > Hi > I've been looking for information of a could of adapters for my > Data I/O 19. I have the UniPak but don't have any of the adapters > for doing things like the 8748's or 8751's. Someone must have > these. All I need is the schematic. > Dwight > Dwight, You can try asking (very nicely) the fellow that is the last support company for Data I/O oldies... Alfred Marin - mlps_vt at verizon.net He is a very nice fellow and is willing to send out copies of single sheets of documents when he has the time. Remember that this is his livelihood as well. I have added (with permission from Al) PDFs that he sent me on obscure adapters to my Data I/O ftp site. ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment/DATA-IO John :-#)# How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 30 15:06:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:06:40 -0500 Subject: semi-modern HP mini available Message-ID: <001d01c7eb41$4a732450$6500a8c0@BILLING> HP9000 K class box with 2 jamaica arrays and 2 autoraids all of which is mounted in 2 beautiful, 1.6 meter HP cabinets. All cabling is included. Disclosure: One Autoraid has a bad controller. Several of the drives were upgraded in one Autoraid to 36 gig drives. Besides the one bad controller in one autoraid, all the rest is working. Contact me offlist if interested. Gear is located in St. Louis, MO. I will not store this for you ;) Nostalgic interest - this is gear that I sold new to this customer as an HP9000 dealer "back in the day". Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 15:30:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:30:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <20070830080852.C74015@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 30, 7 08:10:02 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Roger Holmes wrote: > > Which port are you using, serial or parallel? > > With a Draftmaster I? I beleive all Draftmasters have an HPIB port, which is technically a parallel interface . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 15:31:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:31:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey Armstrong" at Aug 30, 7 05:05:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Just because we are on the subject already. > > > > What is the last version of the firmware ? > > I can't remember exactly, but the 100A was definitely 4.xx series (maybe > 4.12?) while the 100B was definitely 5.xx series (maybe 5.03A). I've > never seen different values on any Rainbow, though, suggesting that the > boot roms were finalized before manufacturing started and never again > updated. Could be wrong, though. Is the only difference between the -A and -B the firmware ROM? If you got the later firmware and put it into a -A mainboard would the machine (a) still work and (b) let you boot from a hard drive (asuming you'd also fitted the controller card)? -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 16:20:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:20:32 -0500 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: <20070830080852.C74015@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8/30/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > Which port are you using, serial or parallel? > > > > With a Draftmaster I? > > I beleive all Draftmasters have an HPIB port, which is technically a > parallel interface . I can imagine someone cutting a Centronics printer cable in half, and asking how to connect it to the severed end of an HPIB cable... I _did_ have someone approach me at work, once, holding an HPIB cable, and demanding to know where they were supposed to put *this*. I managed to stifle the obvious first answer and asked about what was _really_ going on. It seems that this person had asked for a bit of lab equipment and a computer, but the lab equipment office failed to pass along to the IT group that this person's PC should have an HPIB card. The user was quite upset that he couldn't show up his first day and start taking data immediately. We fixed him up in under an hour, but that wasn't good enough to please him. From the waves he made later about how "incompetent" the entire IT staff was, I later regretted suppressing the initial suggestion I'd had when I first met him. -ethan (whose first computer _did_ have HPIB, and who never had to ask where to stick the cable ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 30 16:27:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:27:35 -0700 Subject: Close rattle-can paint match to 1990's HP beige? Message-ID: <46D6D3D7.15604.13CCF06@cclist.sydex.com> All, I've got some cosmetic touchup to do on an HP cabinet (rust showing in a few scratches). It's not a big job, so I've been considering a coat or two of a rattle-can paint. I'm guessing that said cabinet is late 1980s--early 1990s vintage. Has anyone been in this situation before? Does anyone have any recommendations on a suitable brand and item number for said paint? Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 30 16:38:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:38:57 -0700 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: <20070830080852.C74015@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: <46D6D681.4843.1473875@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2007 at 16:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I can imagine someone cutting a Centronics printer cable in half, and > asking how to connect it to the severed end of an HPIB cable... Not out of the question in my book. A PC parallel port can drive a single HPIB device just fine--all it takes is software... :) Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Aug 30 16:45:09 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:45:09 -0700 Subject: Personality modules for Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D7B6875@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: I don't suppose anyone knows where one can get a set of personality modules for the Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? A manual would be nice also ;) -- Sellam Ismail ---------------------------- I've been looking for over a year for this information. So far, no luck. If you find anything, I would love to have a copy. Billy From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 16:45:34 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: semi-modern HP mini available In-Reply-To: <001d01c7eb41$4a732450$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <103029.80004.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > HP9000 K class box with 2 jamaica arrays and 2 > autoraids > all of which is mounted in 2 beautiful, 1.6 meter HP > cabinets. All cabling > is included. Gear is located in > St. Louis, MO. Gah. If only it were closer... Hopefully someone rescues this. These are really neat boxen. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 17:05:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:05:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 30, 7 04:20:32 pm Message-ID: > > I _did_ have someone approach me at work, once, holding an HPIB cable, > and demanding to know where they were supposed to put *this*. I Don't tempt me :-) > managed to stifle the obvious first answer and asked about what was > _really_ going on. It seems that this person had asked for a bit of > lab equipment and a computer, but the lab equipment office failed to > pass along to the IT group that this person's PC should have an HPIB > card. The user was quite upset that he couldn't show up his first day > and start taking data immediately. We fixed him up in under an hour, > but that wasn't good enough to please him. From the waves he made > later about how "incompetent" the entire IT staff was, I later > regretted suppressing the initial suggestion I'd had when I first met > him. Checking through some of the stuff I've picked up in my career as a hacker (to paraphrase you-know-who), I've come across a set of routines and a little hardware mod to link a GPIB device to a PC printer port. The author of this stuff? None other than Chuck Guzis :-) -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 30 17:15:47 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:15:47 -0500 Subject: semi-modern HP mini available References: <103029.80004.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c7eb53$53bdf780$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ian wrote.... > Gah. If only it were closer... And here I was hoping to trade them for some Pr1me Gear ;) > Hopefully someone rescues this. These are really neat boxen. Yes, but especially the Autoraid units. Those are really nice arrays. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 30 17:31:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:31:41 -0700 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 30, 7 04:20:32 pm, Message-ID: <46D6E2DD.1010.1777DC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2007 at 23:05, Tony Duell wrote: > Checking through some of the stuff I've picked up in my career as a > hacker (to paraphrase you-know-who), I've come across a set of routines > and a little hardware mod to link a GPIB device to a PC printer port. The > author of this stuff? None other than Chuck Guzis :-) I got my inspiration and motivation for that (as I recall) from two things--a pile of GPIB cables for the printer port of a Victor 9000 at a local surplus place--and an HP 5-pen plotter picked up at the going-out-of-business sale of a Control Data business retail store (gives you an idea of how long ago it was). I also had a fresh copy of SuperCalc for the PC and a 5150 with an MDA. I coded the original routine as a TSR that hooked one of the BIOS interrupts, so Supercalc was none the wiser. Funny how some things come together at the right times... Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 17:58:31 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:58:31 -0500 Subject: HP2627A, HP82109M Message-ID: <624966d60708301558k658b49dej47bd1b7359a50182@mail.gmail.com> I recently picked up 2 HP2627A (Feb 85),both missing covers, one missing the two boards in the rear, and a HP82901M flexible disc drive. If anyone has any interest, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 30 18:21:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:21:38 -0700 Subject: Mac Beige C3 to HP 98789A SOG monitor? Message-ID: <46D6EE92.18070.1A538D4@cclist.sydex.com> All, I've been digging through my pile of stuff again and figured that my old HP98789A 17" (Sony) monitor might be a good match my my beige Mac G3. Okay, my next step is to wire up an adapter. The HP is RGB (3 BNC) to sync-on-green. I read that the Power Macs don't support SOG, so I need to combine both the HSYNC and VSYNC with green (a couple of 74HCxx gates should do that; I can steal power from the sync signals). Otherwise, it's connect pin 4 to 7 (S0 to S1) on the Mac video connector to signal that I want "RGB 1024x768". Do I have this right? Does anyone have anything to add before I take out my soldering iron? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 30 18:25:02 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:25:02 -0700 Subject: Close rattle-can paint match to 1990's HP beige? In-Reply-To: <46D6D3D7.15604.13CCF06@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D6D3D7.15604.13CCF06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46D751CE.9010508@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > All, > > I've got some cosmetic touchup to do on an HP cabinet (rust showing > in a few scratches). It's not a big job, so I've been considering a > coat or two of a rattle-can paint. I'm guessing that said cabinet is > late 1980s--early 1990s vintage. > > Has anyone been in this situation before? Does anyone have any > recommendations on a suitable brand and item number for said paint? If there's a representative panel you can carry around, some auto paint distributors will do custom color-matching. A lot of them can package it in rattle-cans. I've done this a few times for my motorcycles, and was pleasantly surprised by both the result and the price. There is the added benefit of decent-quality paint.... Doc From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 18:57:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: holy crap, another Cat on ePay! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <497194.11193.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> well it is summer time. The time when oftentimes you can find bargains on eBay. Remember though...the last one ended an order of magnitude higher then the current bid. It's bound to go considerably higher. Now that I'm back in Joisy for a bit, I'm going to crack open my Cat hopefully, to get a gander at it's innards. Problem: that's my old bedroom, and all the other *cats* spent the winter in there. Place is loaded w/fleas LOL LOL. I'm not supposed to go in there at all! --- dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > AND NO PAYMENTS > NECESSARY UNTIL 2008! WOOHOO!> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CANON-CAT-WORK-PROCESSOR-Jef-Raskin_W0QQitemZ110162860314QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > > I might be selling mine soon. Need a house. Tired > of> sleeping in the car LOL LOL LOL.> > Hi > You might want to hold off for a while. I suspect > that the market is > reaching saturation. There just aren't that many > that are expecting > to pay $600+ for a Cat. > For those that are interested in hacking the Cat or > writing another > printer driver as I've done, look at the Cat info on > the DigiBarn > web page. I've been doing other hacking since then > for anyone > that is interested. I've found the video RAM and I'm > thinking of creating > some graphics functions. Right now I just have a > simple XOR to > each bit but I realize that a line drawing routine > would be good as > well. > If someone on this group wants to talk offline > about the Cat, > let me know. It is a remarkable computer. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > See what you?re getting into before you go there > http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 19:08:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Beige C3 to HP 98789A SOG monitor? In-Reply-To: <46D6EE92.18070.1A538D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <449685.75389.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > All, > > I've been digging through my pile of stuff again and > figured that my > old HP98789A 17" (Sony) monitor might be a good > match my my beige Mac > G3. > > Okay, my next step is to wire up an adapter. The HP > is RGB (3 BNC) > to sync-on-green. I read that the Power Macs don't > support SOG, so I > need to combine both the HSYNC and VSYNC with green > (a couple of > 74HCxx gates should do that; I can steal power from > the sync > signals). Otherwise, it's connect pin 4 to 7 (S0 to > S1) on the Mac > video connector to signal that I want "RGB > 1024x768". There were dookickies that took care of the mode setting. Some had dials, others dips. I used to have a bunch, may have come across 1 in recent history. But mine were a bridge between duh Mac and a VGA-BNC cable. The info on how to *dial up* a specific video mode (by shorting 2 pins) should be readily available on duh net I would think. Macs (older ones anyway) had to select a video mode at boot, or no video signal would output. I'm surprised to hear that *PMs* don't output SOG. Depends what you mean by PM. I thought the earlier models did, but what do I know. I used to *cheat*. I would feed separate syncs onto the green line w/a resistor. Those monitors, of which there were 2 versions (~48khz and ~64khz) would take the sync on R,G, or B IIRC. Don't quote me though. It could be that I was using a video card (aftermarket) that delivered syncs on all 3. Don't really remember. There's a vintage mac usenet group if you weren't aware. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 19:20:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wtd: Tandy 3000 *any version* and a 6000 Message-ID: <397401.82857.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> preferably the *real* 3000. I'll dig as much change as there is in my pocket or trade for something. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 19:33:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:33:19 -0500 Subject: Docs on panel meters? Message-ID: >From time to time, I run across panel meters, at hamfests, in the dustbin, whereever. I'm sure, in most cases, they still work, but without pinouts, it's a bit tough to put them back into service. The latest one I have is marked with the following... Fairchild Panel Meter Model Number 300555 5VDC Powered: 2V F.S. Range 7825 (in paint, presumably a date code) It has an 11-pin connector on the back, and inside, under the red plastic cover, is 4 7-segment LEDs, som resistors and caps, plus 4 black, unmarked epoxy blocks I can't identify. There are a number of traces going under each one, so I'm presuming they are bare dice that were glued to the board, then encapsulated, but unlike modern examples of that practice, these are in square-sided epoxy blocks. I don't need to know the entire circuit. Mostly, I just need to know where to attach Vcc, GND, and the sensed voltage. Obviously, googling for "fairchild 300555" turns up nothing. Not at all unusual for something of this vintage. Thanks for any pointers. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 30 21:05:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:05:24 -0700 Subject: Mac Beige C3 to HP 98789A SOG monitor? In-Reply-To: <449685.75389.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46D6EE92.18070.1A538D4@cclist.sydex.com>, <449685.75389.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D714F4.1820.23B2626@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2007 at 17:08, Chris M wrote: > There were dookickies that took care of the mode > setting. Some had dials, others dips. I used to have a > bunch, may have come across 1 in recent history. But > mine were a bridge between duh Mac and a VGA-BNC > cable. The info on how to *dial up* a specific video > mode (by shorting 2 pins) should be readily available > on duh net I would think. Macs (older ones anyway) had > to select a video mode at boot, or no video signal > would output. > I'm surprised to hear that *PMs* don't output SOG. > Depends what you mean by PM. I thought the earlier > models did, but what do I know. Starting with the 9600, apparently, so the older series PM's apparently still generate SOG: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Maci ntosh_CPUs-PPC_Desktop/PPC_7300_7600_8600_9600.pdf CSYNC (Pin 3 on the Mac video connector) is still available, however. I went for a "quick and dirty" and just tied that to Green with a 470 ohm resistor. It'll do for now. Nice crisp display. I forgot how darned heavy those old HP monitors were. I hope the plastic case top will support it. :) Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 21:47:59 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:47:59 -0700 Subject: Personality modules for Heathkit 4801 EPROM Programmer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John Thanks for the pointer. It is good to here from you. I've not fiddled with pins for about two years now but it looks like I'll have to do a little here in the future. My Genie has some lamps that aren't lighting. Dwight > From: jrr at flippers.com> > On 30-Aug-07, at 6:54 AM, dwight elvey wrote:> > >> >> From: sellam at vintagetech.com> > I don't suppose anyone knows where > >> one can get a set of personality > modules for the Heathkit 4801 > >> EPROM Programmer?> > A manual would be nice also ;)>> > Hi> > I've been looking for information of a could of adapters for my> > Data I/O 19. I have the UniPak but don't have any of the adapters> > for doing things like the 8748's or 8751's. Someone must have> > these. All I need is the schematic.> > Dwight> >> Dwight,> > You can try asking (very nicely) the fellow that is the last support > company for Data I/O oldies...> > Alfred Marin - mlps_vt at verizon.net> > He is a very nice fellow and is willing to send out copies of single > sheets of documents when he has the time. Remember that this is his > livelihood as well.> > I have added (with permission from Al) PDFs that he sent me on > obscure adapters to my Data I/O ftp site.> > ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment/DATA-IO> > John :-#)#> > > > How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist> > FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment> > > _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 30 22:42:46 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:42:46 -0400 Subject: Manuals on-line Message-ID: All: I?ve been on a scanning frenzy lately, scanning tons of manuals I have on my shelf. Right now, I?m working on Tandy stuff ? Model 2000 and Model 100 right now. Check out http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/systems.htm Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 30 22:56:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:56:47 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? Message-ID: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 30 23:01:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 30, 7 08:56:47 pm" Message-ID: <200708310401.l7V41cNq017774@floodgap.com> > Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? It's an interesting machine, sort of a "nice idea at the time" box -- good graphics, so-so sound, nice concept, but badly executed and marketed. I used the built-in spreadsheet for my apartment budget while I was in medical school, so it's very useable, but without 64 compatibility most people considered them doorstops. The colour palette is very nice, however. (121 colours) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life's tough. It's tougher if you're stupid. -- John Wayne ----------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 30 23:04:02 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 30, 7 08:56:47 pm" Message-ID: <200708310404.l7V442gC016552@floodgap.com> > It's an interesting machine, sort of a "nice idea at the time" box -- good > graphics, so-so sound, nice concept, but badly executed and marketed. ... the execution of which I mean the whole 264 line, sorry. Technically, the 264's are a nice design, but none of them (+4, 16, 116, etc.) were well-positioned or well-marketed. Bil Herd may be out there and could say more about it (he was one of the architects, along with Dave Haynie). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Never Say Never Again" ---------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 30 23:46:30 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:46:30 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 8:56 PM -0700 8/30/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? I'd say save it. I remember reading about them in a catalogue, but have never seen one in person. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 00:01:02 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:01:02 -0500 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730708302201n617a706eie4acc751c77604c3@mail.gmail.com> On 8/30/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? > > Cheers, > Chuck Definitely not landfill, though possibly only interesting to Commodore completists. I remember playing with them, along with the C-16, SX-64, etc at K-Mart. That was before I even had my Vic-20. I was a little behind the curve, but hey, I was 9 :) I do not yet have one in the CBM wing of the collection, if you'd otherwise pitch it... From c.cooke21 at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 30 15:56:35 2007 From: c.cooke21 at ntlworld.com (Clint) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:56:35 +0100 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner Message-ID: <000601c7eb48$44e85d00$33f40752@talltower1> Hi William, I worked extensively on the 316 516 416 and 716 minicomputers for Honeywell in the UK and have only just seen your article. Do you still own this incredible 16 bit mini? Please let me know. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:13:53 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA52@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> The Rainbow in question was owned from new by a DEC employee. The system is marked PC100-B3 and displays Version 05.03E In other words about as up to date as you can get. Apart from the ageing VR201 with blue spot face plate mould it runs cool and quiet. It's a very good example and only lacks a VR241 colour display. I think I have most of the software that ever ran on a Rainbow under CP/M or MSDOS. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Armstrong Sent: 30 August 2007 18:06 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. > Just because we are on the subject already. > > What is the last version of the firmware ? I can't remember exactly, but the 100A was definitely 4.xx series (maybe 4.12?) while the 100B was definitely 5.xx series (maybe 5.03A). I've never seen different values on any Rainbow, though, suggesting that the boot roms were finalized before manufacturing started and never again updated. Could be wrong, though. Some Rainbow's have different character set ROMs, like the Technical Character Set ROM, but that doesn't change the firmware version on the boot menu. -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From cheri-post at web.de Fri Aug 31 02:42:08 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:42:08 +0200 Subject: building a machine room Message-ID: <68073390@web.de> Hello Richard, in order to get another impression of what it means to build a machine room, have a look at Bernd Ulmann's website: www.vaxman.de In the menum, click on museum, then on machine room (it's a link within the text). He writes alot about all the problems he got confrontated with while building and renovating his machine room. It's very interesting! Regards, Pierre > > OK, I know some of you have done this -- Henk with his brick PDP machine > room in the Netherlands, at least! > > Looking more closely into the power and other environmental > requirements for my Onyx2 and other rack SGI systems, it seems prudent > that I shouldn't attempt having these systems up and running without > the appropriate environment. > > Fortunately the electrical isn't too bad -- 220 VAC, single phase. > Its more the cooling and ducting part that has me wondering. At the > moment, I'm not concerned with creating a building. I'm wondering > more about what would it take to build a "machine room" inside an > existing structure. Naturally, we're talking about building this on a > "collector" budget and not what you would do if money were no object. > > Assume you have something like a warehouse with a concrete floor but > no warehouse-wide cooling situation. Is it feasible to build a small > climate controlled room inside this larger structure? Where do you > get the necessary A/C equipment for such a thing? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > _______________________________________________________________________ Jetzt neu! Sch?tzen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 3 Monate kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=022220 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Aug 30 14:20:25 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:20:25 +0100 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <200708301702.l7UH1NGp004255@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200708301702.l7UH1NGp004255@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: Fred Cisin > >> Which port are you using, serial or parallel? > > With a Draftmaster I? No, you got me. My mind had strayed forward to the HP DesignJets (large format ink jet printers) where a higher data rate was very useful, and back to several other manufacturers such as Watanabe (Graphtec) and a whole host of others. For some reason HP stuck with serial and HP-IB. I can't remember which was their first parallel plotter, maybe the electrostatic model (HP7500?) which could emulate a pen plotter using HP/GL or take semi vector data plus raster fills using HP-GL/2 and proper raster with RTL as well I think. Now that must be a rare animal now, and probably difficult to get consumables for. At least it never dropped ink on the floor, we still have big patches of yellow and magenta on the carpet in the office which leaked out from another electrostatic we borrowed to write a driver for. Very clever engineering which cut paper off a roll, wrapped it around a big drum, plotted the four colour passes and ejected the paper. It just got bored if you didn't use it for a few weeks and got incontinent. Can't remember the name. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Aug 31 05:25:03 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:25:03 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46D7EC7F.4030109@gifford.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Newbrain (When I said "What I need is a > NewBrain" everybody agreed ) I have a Newbrain here. > Digico (I worked on those) Had a hand > operated paper tape reader. You pulled the tape through the reader. I have a sales brochure for the Digico, and I have a vague recollection of a lab at Essex University which was full of these machines, for the machine-level programming course. > Does anybody have examples of these and any I may have missed? How about all the Sinclairs (ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, QL), and later the Amstrads (CPC464, CPC664)? Then there's my old UK101, a UK copy of the Ohio Scientific Superboard. And how about the rarer ones like the H&H Tiger, the Elan, or the MK14? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 31 06:14:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:14:58 -0600 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:42:08 +0200. <68073390@web.de> Message-ID: In article <68073390 at web.de>, Pierre Gebhardt writes: > in order to get another impression of what it means to build a machine ro= > om, have a look > at Bernd Ulmann's website: www.vaxman.de That was an interesting read, thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From richard.smith at mewgull.com Fri Aug 31 07:18:48 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:18:48 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: >Dear List > Not through any sense of nationality and being a collector of >an American brand anyway. The other day I was pondering life, the >universe and other trivia (programmers do a lot of pondering). When it >crossed the empty acres of my mind that there was very little discussion >of UK designed and manufactured computers. If we exclude ICL -> Fujitsu >and other main frames for now I can only think of a few: > > > RAIR Black box (I knew them very well as they were a >customer of mine whilst I was at DEC) > Research Machines > Acorn > Atom > Newbrain (When I said "What I need is a >NewBrain" everybody agreed ) > Digico (I worked on those) Had a hand >operated paper tape reader. You pulled the tape through the reader. > >Does anybody have examples of these and any I may have missed? AFAIK it was the Acorn Atom, predecessor of the BBC Microcomputer Then there was my choice, the NASCOM and the oher 80-BUS machine by Gemini Not forgetting Sinclair Richard From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 08:29:28 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:29:28 +0100 Subject: Any Microchannel collectors around here? Message-ID: <575131af0708310629q772aa853lcfbed709f01dbb63@mail.gmail.com> I ask 'cos amongst much other junk, I have a largish box full of MCA cards that I'd like to get rid of. If this isn't the place, I welcome recommendations of elsewhere to ask! Most are some kind of audio/video thing - lots of BNC connectors. A couple of elderly NICs and things, too, I think some 8514/a adaptors, maybe some SCSI cards... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 31 08:29:44 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:29:44 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/08/2007 13:18, Richard Smith wrote: >> Not through any sense of nationality and being a collector of >> an American brand anyway. The other day I was pondering life, the >> universe and other trivia (programmers do a lot of pondering). When it >> crossed the empty acres of my mind that there was very little discussion >> of UK designed and manufactured computers. If we exclude ICL -> Fujitsu >> and other main frames for now I can only think of a few: >> >> >> RAIR Black box (I knew them very well as they were a >> customer of mine whilst I was at DEC) >> Research Machines >> Acorn >> Atom >> Newbrain (When I said "What I need is a >> NewBrain" everybody agreed ) >> Digico (I worked on those) Had a hand >> operated paper tape reader. You pulled the tape through the reader. >> >> Does anybody have examples of these and any I may have missed? > > AFAIK it was the Acorn Atom, predecessor of the BBC Microcomputer > > Then there was my choice, the NASCOM and the oher 80-BUS machine by Gemini > > Not forgetting Sinclair For some reason I can't see Richard's original post, but here's a few I have or remember: Tangerine (the Microtan) Transam (the Tuscan) Torch U-micro Dragon ACT/Apricot Amstrad Cambridge Computer (Sinclair by another name, made the Z88) Science of Cambridge (another Sinclair company, made the MK14) Jupiter (the Ace) Tatung (the Einstein) Oric (offshoot of Tangerine, made Oric-1 and Atmos) Camputers (the Lynx) Memotech and if you count handhelds there are a few more, such as Psion, and Microwriter (the AgendA). The Atom was made by Acorn, as was the System range, the BBC Micro range and Electron, the ABC range, the Archimedes range (and the related members like A540, R140, R260, Phoebe, etc) and a few OEM machines. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Aug 31 09:43:57 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:43:57 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70708310743h2ccad75fqac1fe239b794ebdf@mail.gmail.com> On 31/08/2007, Pete Turnbull wrote: > For some reason I can't see Richard's original post, but here's a few I > have or remember: Nor could I ?! Only other one I can think of, and whom I had brief dealings with, is Baydel - they made pdp-11 based systems, then later, lots of cool cards for PCs. I also used some "microfive" 8088 based multi-user systems - not sure where they originated from, though knowing my bos, they were possibly British.. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 09:51:32 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:51:32 -0700 Subject: Docs on panel meters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > >From time to time, I run across panel meters, at hamfests, in the> dustbin, whereever. I'm sure, in most cases, they still work, but> without pinouts, it's a bit tough to put them back into service.> > The latest one I have is marked with the following...> > Fairchild Panel Meter> Model Number 300555> 5VDC Powered: 2V F.S. Range> 7825 (in paint, presumably a date code)> > It has an 11-pin connector on the back, and inside, under the red> plastic cover, is 4 7-segment LEDs, som resistors and caps, plus 4 Hi Ethan It looks like this is a tough one. No one has responded. You may have to start doing some hunting with an ohm meter. It is most likely a dual slope A/D. These are quite accurate and simple. You might see if there are some common points on the connector that have the same resistance and polarity to the LED's. This would kind of give one a starting point. See if you can figure if the LED's are common cathode or common anode. Typically, the power leads are either grouped at one or the other end of the connector. The other is that they might be split with one lead at both ends. Most of the dual slope A/D's had diffential inputs such that there wasn't one lead tied to ground. This may have been different on the panel meters. They may even have the meter common tied to either lead of the supply so you can't assume that a common lead is the plus or minus. The input could even be tied to a divider to give the most common range. Some opamps could take slightly negative voltages and still work well. 200 mv is small enough that this might still be in the common range. I've used similar meters years ago and the one thing to note is that most require an isolated power supply. If there are electrolytics, at least one of the leads will most likely be tied to ground. These are not useful as part of the dual slope A/D circuit and would most likely be filter capacitors. Most IC's have diode protection on their input leads. These would usually indicate forward in the reverse direction that they were actually intended to be used in circuit. If you know the polarity of the LEDs, and you think you have the power leads figured, you can put a current limiting resistor in series and bring the voltage up slowly. Watch the polarity of the voltages on the LED's and electrolytics. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Aug 31 02:09:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:09:49 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Dear List Not through any sense of nationality and being a collector of an American brand anyway. The other day I was pondering life, the universe and other trivia (programmers do a lot of pondering). When it crossed the empty acres of my mind that there was very little discussion of UK designed and manufactured computers. If we exclude ICL -> Fujitsu and other main frames for now I can only think of a few: RAIR Black box (I knew them very well as they were a customer of mine whilst I was at DEC) Research Machines Acorn Atom Newbrain (When I said "What I need is a NewBrain" everybody agreed ) Digico (I worked on those) Had a hand operated paper tape reader. You pulled the tape through the reader. Does anybody have examples of these and any I may have missed? Rod Smallwood From turankuzan at tesbilisim.com Fri Aug 31 03:18:57 2007 From: turankuzan at tesbilisim.com (turankuzan at tesbilisim.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:18:57 +0300 Subject: Please help me ID cards(32) Message-ID: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan> Hello, I need some help about the board Model 5400, ASSY00060-13 REV T urgently. Can you send me some technical documents(if you have any) about this board. Do you have any information about that if I can get an extra board from the producer or not ? From Peter.Coghlan at EUROKOM.IE Fri Aug 31 06:10:45 2007 From: Peter.Coghlan at EUROKOM.IE (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:10:45 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VAXstation 3100 FB problem Message-ID: <01MKSZDYAEVMJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> Hi Tore, I am only catching up on my email now after a weeks absence. > >Hello, I've got a VAXstation 3100 (Thanks, Peter Coghlan!) that I You're welcome. I Hope you didn't have any problems transporting the machine home. If you have any friends / family / colleagues etc coming to Ireland that would be willing to transport the X.25 stuff - send them my way. >recently acquired while on holiday in Ireland. There is a problem I'm >having with it - the 8-plane colour display controller is giving me an >error message on startup: > >?? 4 00D0 0016.0052 > >When I run test 4 on the Chevron prompt I get: > >>>> test 4 > >4?.. > 84 FAIL > >and when I try test 50 I get > >(...) >?? 8PLN 0016.0052 >(...) > I have never come across any documentation for the 3100 that goes into enough detail to explain these codes. However, the card can also be used in a Vaxstation 2000 and the firmware in a VS2000 appears to be very similar to that in a VS3100, so I had a look in my Vaxstation 2000 and Microvax 2000 Maintenance guide which does have some details. It suggestes that 0016 is the status from the test and says that this can be ignored! It goes on to say that 005 means "ID data bus" and 2 means an error (as opposed to "no error" or "informational"). Unfortunately, I don't know what "ID data bus" could mean. > >Does anyone know what could be ailing my new toy? The machine will run >perfectly using the mono adapter, though VMS 7.3 will crash hard when >trying to access the device (starting the X server). > When I tried it last, it produced an error during the power up self tests (probably the same error you are getting) but it was possible to ignore the error and boot VMS and use Decwindows without any apparant problems. Its possible that the version of VMS/Decwindows you are using is more sensitive that the one I had. I will see if I can find out what version it worked ok with. I suspect it was V6.something. Regards, Peter. From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 10:21:00 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:21:00 -0400 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0708310821u4f768072oa072e2a7dd4908f6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/30/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? Like other people have said -- they're interesting, but really were badly executed and marketed. On the upside, it's faster than the C64 and has more colors, but on the major downside, it's got no sprite support and doesn't have the SID chip, which meant that software support was marginal. In a lot of respects, it's more of a scaled up VIC-20 than a C-64. The built-in applications are mostly a curiosity. (And why on earth did someone think that the arrow-*shaped* arrow keys would be a good idea?) In terms of "worth", my impression is that they sell on eBay for just a little more than the average C64-with-1541 combination. (This is my long overdue de-lurking, by the way. Pleased to meet you all.) From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Aug 31 10:38:36 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:38:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. Message-ID: > Is the only difference between the -A and -B the firmware ROM? If you got > the later firmware and put it into a -A mainboard would the machine (a) > still work and (b) let you boot from a hard drive (asuming you'd also >fitted the controller card)? I would be surprised if that did work. There are some hardware differences in the 100A and 100B. The graphics hardware is slightly different, and the quantity of memory on the motherboard is different. I'm sure there are also more subtle differences which I didn't mention. Anyway, it proably wouldn't work, but then again, I've never tried. There are also other differnces that have nothing to do with the firmware. The 100A used an AC fan, while the 100B used a quieter DC fan. The 100A power supply was not quite beefy enough to run the big hard drives, although it would unreliably work. The power connector on the 100A for the second drive was also excessively short so it wouldn't reach the standard DEC hard drives alone anyway. Usually, 100As have the block letter logo on the front, while 100Bs have the script Rainbow logo. -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From jim at photojim.ca Fri Aug 31 10:40:39 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:40:39 -0600 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? References: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00da01c7ebe5$488ff2e0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:56 PM Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? > Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? It's not worth a lot, but it is of interest. If you're in North America, I'm interested, but I'm leaving for the UK tonight and won't be back for a month, so I'd need awhile to complete the transaction. Jim From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 31 10:39:35 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:39:35 -0700 Subject: For all the AIXheads Message-ID: You can tell how often I fire up the 3CT, because this is probably general knowledge. It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know about existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the time to get it (before September 4). From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 31 10:50:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: from Scott Quinn at "Aug 31, 7 08:39:35 am" Message-ID: <200708311550.l7VFoTpJ017326@floodgap.com> > You can tell how often I fire up the 3CT, because this is probably > general knowledge. > > It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know about > existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the time to get > it (before September 4). Dang, that sucks! Guess I'd better pimp out the ANS. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 10:56:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:56:52 -0700 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46D7D7D4.12987.DFFA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 8:09, Rod Smallwood wrote: > RAIR Black box (I knew them very well as they were a > customer of mine whilst I was at DEC) One of my customers back then was really pushing the RAIR BB on this side of the pond. Nice machine, though he never got me to buy one. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 11:44:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:44:12 -0700 Subject: Please help me ID cards(32) In-Reply-To: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan> References: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan> Message-ID: <46D7E2EC.29054.395488@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 11:18, turankuzan at tesbilisim.com wrote: > I need some help about the board Model 5400, ASSY00060-13 REV T > urgently. Can you send me some technical documents(if you have any) > about this board. Do you have any information about that if I can get > an extra board from the producer or not ? Not many posts from Turkey on this list, so welcome! Can you tell us who made the board, what piece of equipment it's from and what it does? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 11:51:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:51:26 -0700 Subject: Docs on panel meters? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <46D7E49E.7290.3FF51D@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 ethan wrote: > Fairchild Panel Meter> Model Number 300555> 5VDC > Powered: 2V F.S. Range> 7825 (in paint, presumably a date code) I found mention of a Fairchild model 300550 DPM in a 1982 US patent, so your 1978 timeline would seem to be about right. Said patent has a schematic that includes the panel meter, but the pinouts given seem to be for a standard 14-pin DIP socket, so no luck there. All the schematic would tell you are the signals required for the DPM operation. I can dig it up again in the USPTO database if you're interested. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 12:28:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:28:44 +0100 Subject: Please help me ID cards(32) In-Reply-To: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan> References: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan> Message-ID: <46D84FCC.3050507@yahoo.co.uk> turankuzan at tesbilisim.com wrote: > Hello, > > I need some help about the board Model 5400, ASSY00060-13 REV T urgently. > Can you send me some technical documents(if you have any) about this board. > Do you have any information about that if I can get an extra board from the > producer or not ? Hmm. Possibly an OMTI 5400 disk/tape/floppy to SCSI bridge board? If so, Al's got a scan of the manual up on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sms/OMTI_5x00.pdf ... from what I remember the hard disk portion of the controllers is compatible across the whole range - so if you just need to drive a hard disk with it, then any OMTI board will do (it doesn't have to be a 5400). Lots of systems used to use these boards (and so are a possible source of spares), but I doubt they've been produced for quite a few years :-) cheers Jules From richard.smith at mewgull.com Fri Aug 31 12:45:16 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:45:16 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70708310743h2ccad75fqac1fe239b794ebdf@mail.gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <2f806cd70708310743h2ccad75fqac1fe239b794ebdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >On 31/08/2007, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> For some reason I can't see Richard's original post, but here's a few I >> have or remember: > >Nor could I ?! > >Only other one I can think of, and whom I had brief dealings with, is >Baydel - they made pdp-11 based systems, then later, lots of cool >cards for PCs. > >I also used some "microfive" 8088 based multi-user systems - not sure >where they originated from, though knowing my bos, they were possibly >British.. Wasn't that the ICL "One-per-desk" machine? Richard From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Aug 31 13:20:28 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:20:28 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <2f806cd70708310743h2ccad75fqac1fe239b794ebdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70708311120j70827331xe934aea827549742@mail.gmail.com> On 31/08/2007, Richard Smith wrote: > > > >I also used some "microfive" 8088 based multi-user systems - not sure > >where they originated from, though knowing my bos, they were possibly > >British.. > > Wasn't that the ICL "One-per-desk" machine? > No, the OPL was a Sinclair QL.. The microfile 1000's I used were about the size and shape of an original IBM XT, but with multple serial ports on the back rather than pc style screen/keyboar: You connected up dumb terminals to use. We ran BOS on them, but think they were intended for ConcurrentDOS. Rob From rcini at optonline.net Fri Aug 31 13:20:58 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:20:58 -0400 Subject: Unidentified game map Message-ID: All: While thumbing through a folder of random stuff, I found a hand-drawn map of what appears to be ?Adventure?. I don?t know enough about the differences between the point versions to confirm which one this goes to. Here?s a link to it: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/pdf/random/Adventure Map.pdf Can anyone positively ID this and give me the background for my Web site? Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Aug 31 13:27:36 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:27:36 -0400 Subject: Before submitting to ebay... In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <2f806cd70708310743h2ccad75fqac1fe239b794ebdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D85D98.8050000@atarimuseum.com> Before I put this on Ebay, I'd prefer to offer it to the mailing list to see if someone has an interest in purchasing: DEC Professional 350 w/ monitor & keyboard. TONS of software and original manuals... WARNING!!! Lots of pictures, not low-bandwidth friendly: http://209.94.123.106/ebay/pro350/ Curt From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 31 13:59:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:59:12 -0700 Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: <200708311550.l7VFoTpJ017326@floodgap.com> References: <200708311550.l7VFoTpJ017326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46D86500.9090208@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>You can tell how often I fire up the 3CT, because this is probably >>general knowledge. >> >>It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know about >>existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the time to get >>it (before September 4). > > > Dang, that sucks! Guess I'd better pimp out the ANS. Dude, do you have any idea how much electricity you'll waste doing that? Have you no environmental conscience? Better ship it here, for your own spiritual safety. Don't worry about me; mine is already trashed. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 14:27:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:27:10 -0700 Subject: Please help me ID cards(32) In-Reply-To: <46D84FCC.3050507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan>, <46D84FCC.3050507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46D8091E.18815.CE89EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 18:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > ... from what I remember the hard disk portion of the controllers is > compatible across the whole range - so if you just need to drive a hard disk > with it, then any OMTI board will do (it doesn't have to be a 5400). Lots of > systems used to use these boards (and so are a possible source of spares), but > I doubt they've been produced for quite a few years :-) Definitely not compatible throughout the whole range, if that's what this is. Some of these were RLL 2,7 drive interfaces. I've got two. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 31 15:48:38 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:48:38 -0400 Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 31 August 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > You can tell how often I fire up the 3CT, because this is probably > general knowledge. > > It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know > about existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the > time to get it (before September 4). Huh? URL? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 15:55:15 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 21:55:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Pete Turnbull wrote:> > For some reason I can't see Richard's original > post, but here's a few I > have or remember: > > Tangerine (the Microtan) > Transam (the Tuscan) > Torch > U-micro > Dragon Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? (Still British, but I don't know anything about the computers other than their name) > ACT/Apricot > Amstrad Weren't the Amstrad's called Schneiders in some European country(s)? > Cambridge Computer (Sinclair by another > name, made the Z88) > Science of Cambridge (another Sinclair > company, made the MK14) > Jupiter (the Ace) > Tatung (the Einstein) > Oric (offshoot of Tangerine, made Oric-1 and > Atmos) > Camputers (the Lynx) > Memotech > > and if you count handhelds there are a few > more, such as Psion, and > Microwriter (the AgendA). > > The Atom was made by Acorn, as was the > System range, the BBC Micro range > and Electron, the ABC range, the Archimedes > range (and the related > members like A540, R140, R260, Phoebe, > etc) and a few OEM machines. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 15:52:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 21:52:45 +0100 Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46D87F9D.8040300@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know >> about existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the >> time to get it (before September 4). > > Huh? URL? And is someone sorting out a rescue? :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 15:56:16 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 21:56:16 +0100 Subject: Please help me ID cards(32) In-Reply-To: <46D8091E.18815.CE89EB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan>, <46D84FCC.3050507@yahoo.co.uk> <46D8091E.18815.CE89EB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46D88070.2080004@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Aug 2007 at 18:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> ... from what I remember the hard disk portion of the controllers is >> compatible across the whole range - so if you just need to drive a hard disk >> with it, then any OMTI board will do (it doesn't have to be a 5400). Lots of >> systems used to use these boards (and so are a possible source of spares), but >> I doubt they've been produced for quite a few years :-) > > Definitely not compatible throughout the whole range, if that's what > this is. Some of these were RLL 2,7 drive interfaces. I've got two. Hmm, I'd forgotten they did RLL ones too - were they the 7xxx series? I'm pretty sure all 5xxx boards are interchangeable anyway (subject to them providing the required interfaces), and I *think* they're supposed to be compatible with an earlier non-5xxx board. I've had various systems using the 5xxx boards, but I don't think I've ever run across any of the others fitted to anything. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 16:10:47 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:10:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <738498.65326.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> If noone here takes it, perhaps you should email the folks at the ACUG0477 (Anything Commodore User Group - I have no idea what the numbers are for (April 1977??)) yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acug0447 Robert Bernardo, Paul Panks (aka Dunric) among others reside there. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chuck Guzis wrote: Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it landfill? Cheers, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 31 16:12:39 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:12:39 -0400 Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:48:38 EDT.) <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200708312112.l7VLCdVc010035@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know > > about existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the > > time to get it (before September 4). > Huh? URL? aixpdslib.seas.ucla.edu De From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 16:13:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:13:00 -0700 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com>, <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D821EC.6279.12F6BC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 21:55, Andrew Burton wrote: > Cambridge Computer (Sinclair by another > name, made the Z88) Vic Gerhardi, of Rakewell Ltd. and the author of a few Z88 books is a friend. I think I still have a couple of his books, but alas, not a Z88. :( Vic is one of the few people I know of who use DataStar (under emulation, of course) for their primary business contacts database manager. Cheers, Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 31 16:18:35 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:18:35 -0600 Subject: Before submitting to ebay... In-Reply-To: <46D85D98.8050000@atarimuseum.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <2f806cd70708310743h2ccad75fqac1fe239b794ebdf@mail.gmail.com> <46D85D98.8050000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46D885AB.6060305@e-bbes.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Before I put this on Ebay, I'd prefer to offer it to the mailing list to > see if someone has an interest in purchasing: > > DEC Professional 350 w/ monitor & keyboard. > > TONS of software and original manuals... How much in $$$ were you thinking ? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 16:25:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:25:55 -0700 Subject: Please help me ID cards(32) In-Reply-To: <46D88070.2080004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002e01c7eba7$a179d350$2201a8c0@turan>, <46D8091E.18815.CE89EB@cclist.sydex.com>, <46D88070.2080004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46D824F3.5963.13B3E37@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 21:56, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've had various systems using the 5xxx boards, but I don't think I've ever > run across any of the others fitted to anything. I think some of the 7xxx ones were used by at least one third-party vendor in hard disks for the early Macs. At least I recall the tech support guy at SMS saying "Oh, you've got the Mac PROMs". I did a design using one of these that interfaced an MFM drive to the Atari ST's ACSI port. Worked pretty well, but I despised the shoddy construction of the ST. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 31 16:30:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:30:39 -0600 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D8887F.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Burton wrote: > Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? (Still British, but I don't know anything about the computers other than their name) That was a Color Computer clone from the UK is all I know. From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Aug 31 16:22:11 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need ROM for AP-64e Apple ][ EPROM writer card Message-ID: Does anyone else have an AP-64e EPROM writer card for the Apple ][? If so, is there any way I can get you to dump the ROM and send me the file? I have two of these: one is missing the ROM and the other has the ROM (a 2716 EPROM) but it has been erased apparently. Also, can you write a tutorial on how to use it? The manual is available online as a PDF: http://www.apple-iigs.info/doc/fichiers/ap64eprom.pdf ...but the Engrish in which it is written is so mangled it's hard to make out what it's saying. Plus, it excludes certain key documentation, such as which side is "on" for the programming switch, and the DIP switch setting chart doesn't define what 'x' and 'o' mean in the context of the switch settings. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 31 16:32:00 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:32:00 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D888D0.6050200@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/08/2007 21:55, Andrew Burton wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote:> > Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? (Still British, but I don't know anything about the computers other than their name) Yes, that's right. Nice simple little 6809-based micros, in their own way. > Weren't the Amstrad's called Schneiders in some European country(s)? The later Amstrad PCs were, in Germany, but not the earlier ranges. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 17:18:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 31, 7 08:09:49 am Message-ID: > > Dear List > Not through any sense of nationality and being a collector of > an American brand anyway. The other day I was pondering life, the > universe and other trivia (programmers do a lot of pondering). When it > crossed the empty acres of my mind that there was very little discussion > of UK designed and manufactured computers. If we exclude ICL -> Fujitsu > and other main frames for now I can only think of a few: > =20 > =20 > RAIR Black box (I knew them very well as they were a > customer of mine whilst I was at DEC) > Research Machines=20 > Acorn > Atom > Newbrain (When I said "What I need is a > NewBrain" everybody agreed )=20 > Digico (I worked on those) Had a hand > operated paper tape reader. You pulled the tape through the reader. > =20 > Does anybody have examples of these and any I may have missed? Firstly, a correction. The Atom was an Acorn machine Other manufacturers : Memotech (started off making ZX81 peripherals, but made complete computers later -- the MTX500 and MTX512) Sinclair (and the related Science of Cambridge and Cambridge Comptuers -- MK14, ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, Z88) Torch (started making BBC add-ons, but made some unix workstations, like the XXX) Whitechaple Computer Works (MG1 32016-based workstation, Hitec MIPS-based workstations) Inmos (made some complete development systems for their Transputer chips. Was the FEP ever a commercial product?) Jupiter Cantab (Ace, one of the few machines to have Forth in ROM) HH (the ill-fated Tiget) Nascom (and the later Gemini -- Z80-based machines) Tnagerine (Microtan 6502-based stuff) Oric (Oric 1, Atmos, etc. A bit like 6502-based Spectrums) Were AMT (DAP SIMD machines) British? Diamond (does that count? They made a Z80-based word processor). As regards what I have (living in the UK) : Acorn Systems (19" carccages full of Eurocards, 6502 and 6809 based), Atoms, BBC micros, ACW, Archimedes stuff Sinclair (etc) MK14, ZX81, Spectrum, QL Nascom 2, Gemini Galaxy HH Tiger Diamond system 5 Torch XXX and XXXX Whitechapel MG1, Hitech 10 Inmos ITEM, FEP logic cage Jupiter ACE RML380Z, 480Z Memotech MTX500 Oric 1, ATMOS Probalby others that I've forgotten about -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 17:04:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:04:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <46D6E2DD.1010.1777DC2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 30, 7 03:31:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 Aug 2007 at 23:05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Checking through some of the stuff I've picked up in my career as a > > hacker (to paraphrase you-know-who), I've come across a set of routines > > and a little hardware mod to link a GPIB device to a PC printer port. The > > author of this stuff? None other than Chuck Guzis :-) > > I got my inspiration and motivation for that (as I recall) > from two things--a pile of GPIB cables for the printer port of a > Victor 9000 at a local surplus place--and an HP 5-pen plotter picked I don;'t suppose you (or anyone else here) has one of those cables still? I'd love to see thw wirelist. The printer port on the Sirius/Victor 9000 was really a software-driven GPIB poer with a strange pinout. What I mean is that the port was driven by GPIB buffer chips (75160 for the data lines, 75161 for the control lines), with the 'host side of those going to a 6522 VIA, so that the protocol was entirely software-defined. The pinout of the 36 pin Blue Ribbon connector was centronics-like -- DAV on pin 1 (Centronics Strobe), data lines on pins 2-9 in the obvious order, and so on. Things like REN and ATN endied up on normally-unused pins. Alas the PC protner port was so well-designed. > up at the going-out-of-business sale of a Control Data business > retail store (gives you an idea of how long ago it was). I also had > a fresh copy of SuperCalc for the PC and a 5150 with an MDA. I > coded the original routine as a TSR that hooked one of the BIOS > interrupts, so Supercalc was none the wiser. Had it beren mine, I think i'd have made up a bit of hardware to sort the handshakes out, and set the plotter to 'Listen Only' mode (I think all real HP ploters can be set ot do that). The PC would then certianly have been none-the-wiser. _Many_ years ago, I needed to get plotter output from a CoCo3, and all I could get my hands on was an HPIB plotter. I ended up using a Commodore PET (8032SK) with a 8050 drive to load the program from, and a 3rd party RS232 itnerface unit. The PET just read chracters from the RS232 interface and sent them to the plotter. Overkill, sure, but it worked (and yes, I do still ahve all the bits of that system) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 17:35:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:35:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Aug 31, 7 09:55:15 pm Message-ID: > Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? > (Still British, but I don't know anything about the computers other than > their name) Yes. The Dragon 32 was based on the same Motorola Application Note (for the 6883) as the Tandy Color Computer, anf is a very similar machine. Although for some inexplicable reason, the BASIC tokens are differnntly ordered, so a binary BASIC program from a Dragon won;t load on a CoCo and vice versa... The main differece between the hardware of the Dragon and the CoCo is the printer port. There were 3 PIA lines left over once the necessary signal had been taken for the sound, cassette port, keyboard, VDG control, etc. As er all know, the CoCo used them for a bit-banged RS232 port. On the Dragon, they were the Strobe, Busy and ACK lines of a Centronics port. The data for that came from the 8 keyboard scan lines (one port of a PIA), suitably buffered. There was no problem with the dual use of this port, the machine didn't try to read the ekybaord inptus when it was sending a character to the printer, and the printer ignored the keyboard scan 'data' because there was no Strobe signal along with it. The Dragon 64 has (not surpisingly) twice as much RAM, and also a real hardware RS23 port, based IIRC on the 6551. > > Amstrad > > Weren't the Amstrad's called Schneiders in some European country(s)? Yes, I beleive so. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Aug 31 17:48:26 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:48:26 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D8887F.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <46D8887F.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46D89ABA.6020900@gifford.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > Andrew Burton wrote: >> Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? Yes, that's correct. Dragon Data, of Swansea. > That was a Color Computer clone from the UK is all I know. Both the TRS-80 Color Computer and the Dragon-32 were derived from the same Motorola application note for the 6883 SAM (Sequential Address Multiplexer) chip. The SAM was very closely matched to the 6847 video chip. Shame that the design was so poor that the 6809E processor had to be run well below its rated speed. The Color Computer and the Dragon-32 differ in the area of the printer port. One is serial, the other parallel (I forget which is which). -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 31 18:22:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070831162036.H48281@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas the PC protner port was so well-designed. ? > _Many_ years ago, I needed to get plotter output from a CoCo3, and all I > could get my hands on was an HPIB plotter. I ended up using a Commodore > PET (8032SK) with a 8050 drive to load the program from, and a 3rd party > RS232 itnerface unit. The PET just read chracters from the RS232 > interface and sent them to the plotter. Overkill, sure, but it worked > (and yes, I do still ahve all the bits of that system) I have used an XT as a serial to parallel converter, and as a parallel to serial converter, etc. For me, that has almost always been cheaper than the appropriate purpose designed hardware. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Aug 31 19:07:25 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:07:25 -0500 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <200708310401.l7V41cNq017774@floodgap.com> References: <200708310401.l7V41cNq017774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46D8AD3D.7030108@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The colour palette is very nice, however. (121 colours) That's an interesting number -- how was that number reached? 11 x 11? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 19:05:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 01:05:09 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D89ABA.6020900@gifford.co.uk> References: <756004.83996.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <46D8887F.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> <46D89ABA.6020900@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <46D8ACB5.5010002@yahoo.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> Andrew Burton wrote: >>> Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? > > Yes, that's correct. Dragon Data, of Swansea. Although later managed by GEC (I've got both a D32 and a grey-cased GEC-built D64). I believe a few machines made it to the US too, but the name of the US reseller eludes me at the moment. I'm sure we've missed lots of stuff off the list, but I don't fancy sifting 'results' to avoid repeating what's already been mentioned :-) I know the last time I did this exercise it came out at around 30 different manufacturers [1], and that was without poking around for the more obscure stuff... [1] Not sure we've had BCL, HLH or Control Universal yet, for instance. Looking at the advertising section of old 80's computer mags, it's always fascinating just how many UK companies there were churning out machines. Was the same true in the US? It always seems to be the same few big names that get mentioned, but maybe that's because that's all that has survived, or because their popularity keeps them in the spotlight. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 31 19:00:09 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 01:00:09 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D8AB89.603@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/08/2007 23:18, Tony Duell wrote: > Whitechaple Computer Works (MG1 32016-based workstation, Hitec MIPS-based > workstations) Ah, that's the one I was trying to remember. I know someone who has one, or perhaps two. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 19:22:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS --- Rod Smallwood wrote: > Dear List > Not through any sense of nationality and > being a collector of > an American brand anyway. The other day I was > pondering life, the > universe and other trivia (programmers do a lot of > pondering). When it > crossed the empty acres of my mind that there was > very little discussion > of UK designed and manufactured computers. If we > exclude ICL -> Fujitsu > and other main frames for now I can only think of a > few: > > > RAIR Black box (I knew them very well > as they were a > customer of mine whilst I was at DEC) > Research Machines > Acorn > Atom > Newbrain (When I said > "What I need is a > NewBrain" everybody agreed ) > Digico (I worked on > those) Had a hand > operated paper tape reader. You pulled the tape > through the reader. > > Does anybody have examples of these and any I may > have missed? > > Rod Smallwood > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 19:26:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: <200708312112.l7VLCdVc010035@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <206400.55475.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I'm sure someone on this list could be nice and *archive* the whole lot before it goes shebang. Heck of a time to shut down...rather immediately following a holiday weekend. Crikeys. --- Dennis Boone wrote: > > > It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken > offline. Don't know > > > about existing mirrors at this time, but if you > want it now's the > > > time to get it (before September 4). > > > Huh? URL? > > aixpdslib.seas.ucla.edu > > De > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 19:29:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <838110.63216.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I have 3 (I think that's what they are) sans cpus. What I really want, which in reality is a close cousin, is the 16, which is a blackish Commie 64. Love that case. I'll take one working or not :) --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Got one here. Is it worth anything or is it > landfill? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 31 19:46:31 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex Sinclair tape Message-ID: Would someone here be interested in a Timex Sinclair "Power Pack 1" tape? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 31 19:56:08 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 01:56:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Timex Sinclair tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <668044.21688.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> What games/programs are on it? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk David Griffith wrote: Would someone here be interested in a Timex Sinclair "Power Pack 1" tape? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 19:57:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:57:08 -0700 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: <46D6E2DD.1010.1777DC2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 30, 7 03:31:41 pm, Message-ID: <46D85674.22090.1FC9A88@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 23:04, Tony Duell wrote: > Had it beren mine, I think i'd have made up a bit of hardware to sort the > handshakes out, and set the plotter to 'Listen Only' mode (I think all > real HP ploters can be set ot do that). The PC would then certianly have > been none-the-wiser. It took me exactly two evenings to work this out--one to work out the cable and the second to write the TSR. I'd already converted my MDA card for bi-directional operation, so it was pretty much a no- brainer. The project came in handy a few months later when a friend showed up on my doorstep with an HP GPIB-interface voltmeter and wanted to know how to get the data into his PC. ISA GPIB host adapter cards were available, but expensive. I believe one odd aspect of the GPIB plotter that I used was that it supported fewer commands than the serial version. All of that HPIB protocol must've taken extra ROM space. Fortunately, Supercalc didn't use the added command set, so I was fine. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 19:58:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:58:36 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <838110.63216.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46D72F0F.26700.2A11E2B@cclist.sydex.com>, <838110.63216.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D856CC.6743.1FDF41B@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 17:29, Chris M wrote: > I have 3 (I think that's what they are) sans cpus. > What I really want, which in reality is a close > cousin, is the 16, which is a blackish Commie 64. Love > that case. I'll take one working or not :) I've got the CPU in its original box, as well as a 1541 and the MPS- 801 printer. I haven't fired any of this up yet, so I can't even say that it all works... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 20:06:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NCR UNIX puter on eBay Message-ID: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=290110351771&Category=1247 comments? thoughts? suggestions? Virtually nothing retrieved by googling, though there is a vendor that has one presumably. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 20:09:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D856CC.6743.1FDF41B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <789006.72792.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Aug 2007 at 17:29, Chris M wrote: > > > I have 3 (I think that's what they are) sans cpus. > > What I really want, which in reality is a close > > cousin, is the 16, which is a blackish Commie 64. > Love > > that case. I'll take one working or not :) > > I've got the CPU in its original box, as well as a > 1541 and the MPS- > 801 printer. I haven't fired any of this up yet, so > I can't even say > that it all works... You can get into trouble by using *cpu* on this list I see. I should know better. I should have said mine don't have the uP's. That's what I was told anyhoo. These come with rom based word processor, spread- sheet, etc., and are said to be worth less then the silicon they're *printed on*. So I guess there's no point in inquiring whether a 6510 or such could be hacked in. But you got to admit, it would be fun regardless... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 31 22:52:45 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D8AD3D.7030108@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Aug 31, 7 07:07:25 pm" Message-ID: <200709010352.l813qjVU015380@floodgap.com> > > The colour palette is very nice, however. (121 colours) > > That's an interesting number -- how was that number reached? 11 x 11? No, 16 colours x 8 luminances, but one of the colours is black. (The greys are under the 'white' colour.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In the end, everything is alright. -- Sarah Goldfarb, "Requiem for a Dream" From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 31 22:59:07 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: <46D86500.9090208@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Aug 31, 7 11:59:12 am" Message-ID: <200709010359.l813x7vP016018@floodgap.com> > > Dang, that sucks! Guess I'd better pimp out the ANS. > > Dude, do you have any idea how much electricity you'll waste doing > that? Have you no environmental conscience? Better ship it here, for > your own spiritual safety. > > Don't worry about me; mine is already trashed. rofl! Nah, I'm going to do my part towards global warming, so there. ;) However, I'm definitely grabbing all the 3.2.5 and 4.1 packages I can get my hands on. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'll be at the opening of my garage door." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 23:14:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:14:22 -0500 Subject: Unidentified game map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/31/07, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > While thumbing through a folder of random stuff, I found a hand-drawn > map of what appears to be ?Adventure?. I don?t know enough about the > differences between the point versions to confirm which one this goes to. It's definitely Adventure, but I don't know enough about the differences to say which version off the top of my head, either. The 1979 date is a big clue, though. There weren't that many versions prior to 1980. Nice find. I've never seen that particular rendering before. It must have escaped copying and recopying over the years. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 31 23:56:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:56:18 -0600 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <46D8AD3D.7030108@oldskool.org> References: <200708310401.l7V41cNq017774@floodgap.com> <46D8AD3D.7030108@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46D8F0F2.6050809@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The colour palette is very nice, however. (121 colours) > > That's an interesting number -- how was that number reached? 11 x 11? I asume the other 7 colors where reserved as some sort of default colors for your text display. Ben alias woodelf From jrr at flippers.com Fri Aug 31 11:34:35 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:34:35 -0700 Subject: Manuals on-line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EACEB6A-3272-4D56-96A0-2093754018BF@flippers.com> Hi Richard, Would you like to scan in the Heathkit computer trainers? I have a pile of them that are waiting for a rainy day (like I have time?) you see I have seven or eight filing cabinets full of arcade game and technical manuals to deal with sooner of much later.... I know there are people looking for these Heathkit manuals though... Seeing as you are just down the street at SFU I could either drop them off or if you are near my shop in Vancouver (see signature) you could pick them up? John :-#)# On 30-Aug-07, at 8:42 PM, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?ve been on a scanning frenzy lately, scanning tons of manuals > I have > on my shelf. Right now, I?m working on Tandy stuff ? Model 2000 and > Model > 100 right now. > > Check out http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > systems.htm > > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Fri Aug 31 15:37:15 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:37:15 +0200 Subject: HP integral , 82297a Message-ID: <46D87BFB.2050608@bluewin.ch> I seem to rember that people on this list ( Tony ?) have extended a 512K memory expansion for the HP integral. < Hi, As you recall, I am working on a Catweasel for NorthStar floppy disk reader project. It is slowly making progress and will eventually come out in the open. I'd still like anyone who can to join me. In the meantime, some people have said one of the problems with using the Catweasel is actually finding one to buy in the first place. I have had a lot of luck here: http://www.ggsdata.se/PC/en-iokort.html I recently bought a Catweasel Mk1 from them which prior to finding it I had thought those were "unobtainium". Please do not misinterpret this message, it is not a SPAM message as much as an little help to my fellow NorthStar owners to get in on the Catweasel fun. Now you can longer say that you can't participate because you cannot find a Catweasel! Best of luck with your NorthStars whatever you do. THANKS! Andrew Lynch PS, I am on vacation and may be a bit hard to reach for the next few days.