From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 00:31:11 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SoCal garage cleaning, truck or dumpster In-Reply-To: <460EB226.3080107@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <60150.60332.qm@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mike, I'm in OC (Aliso Viejo) - please allow to rummage through your wares. I don't work Mondays or Tuesdays. Steve. --- Mike Ford wrote: > 15 years of packratting a 2 car garage and a 10x35 > storage unit full of > old computer stuff will be seriously trimmed over > the next three weeks > to make room for a worse hobby, 2 old Porsche 928's. > > I have commercial shelving in both garage and > storage, some going up 10 > feet or so, this is not a few boxes, its a few truck > loads. Some stuff > is headed for a dumpster, cases of new old stock > software still in the > bulky boxes, and not anything too exciting in the > first place. Some > stuff will get condensed, out goes the bulky box, > floppy and docs into a > single mass box. Middle aged PCs, compaq 486's I > saved to play with > linux on, by the dozen. NOS Apple and mac repair > parts, cables, stacks > of middle aged macs like 610, half a dozen LW II's. > > I'm not just walking into the forest with a candle, > nice, to me at least > stuff that doesn't take up much space I will find > room for, but that > won't include a complete commodore system currently > filling a good sized > box. I have two NOS specialty monitors, weird > connections, a Sigma > LabView I think, I forget the other, but I will > update once I dig in a > bit, and put some picts up on my website. > > Email me, I am 40,000 messages behind, not joking, > reading this list. > > VERY little will be shipped, exceptions for good > causes and old > commitments, like the DEC terminal promised to > someone on this list. > > Sooner much better than later, in 7 days I have to > have 10 feet clear to > replace the tilt up garage door with an essential > roll up. First whack > is going to be moving good stuff, and tossing junk > like the old > software, but 6 month goal is cut to the bone and > get rid of 10x35 > storage unit's monthly cost. > > I am not dropping the old computer hobby, but I have > 20 boxes of Apple > 13" monitor NOS service replacement deflection > boards, 20 weird > AppleTalk network routers, and not enough room to > play with it, just > store it. > > Email me, visit lovely Orange county, take home > booty. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From pdp11 at saccade.com Sun Apr 1 00:27:46 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:27:46 -0700 Subject: DN10K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20070331222612.02a20148@mail.saccade.com> Oops - After I sent that long message, I realized I was confusing the DN10000 (custom bitslice CPU emulating a 68K) with the DN300 (68K desktop workstation). My description applies to the DN300, not the DN10K... Cheers, jp From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 1 01:54:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:54:12 -0700 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca> <460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca> <000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> Jay West wrote: > > Brent wrote... > >> Going by the card list presented by the seller and what can be discerned > >> from > >> the picture of the card cage, the unit is missing the core memory boards. > >> Other memory module boards for what should be 16-24 KWords are present > >> but the > >> actual core boards appear to have been pulled. > > I didn't look that close. Brent is of course right, memory seems to be > missing. > > Something else caught my eye upon re-visiting that ad. Either that machine > never ran HP2000 TSB, or someone has pulled a lot more cards than just the > memory. I'm quite certain that a system with those cards could not run TSB > as is. > > My guess is either someone pulled lots of I/O cards, or, the seller did a > quick google search on 2116 and found some mention of TSB so he assumed it > was a TSB box. Not necessarily at all. I'm really not familiar with the hardware requirements for TSB but what about the possibility of it being the I/O processor half of a dual-processor configuration? Wasn't there a TSB which used two 2116's, one for computation and one for I/O? Along with the two mux sets, there are two GND-TRUE IN/OUT cards in the I/O slots which might(?) be for the interconnect to the other processor. Although it does seem a little strange that the extended instruction set cards are present, and the amount of memory which would be implied by the remaining memory module cards. With that said, the "I/O BUSS LOADER" (sic) card is also missing. Bob Shannon informed me a while ago that there is a company still retailing the core memory module cards, but I have no idea of the price. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Apr 1 02:44:23 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 08:44:23 +0100 Subject: NeXT slab SCSI fault In-Reply-To: References: <460D59BD.9080308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1175413463.15894.12.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 09:40 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > I have an SGI Iris Indigo that behaves in a similar manner iff the > external drive has any sort of termination enabled. Sort of > counter-intuitive, but by removing termination from the external drive > inclosure it's quite happy. I have an E-mu ESI-4000 sampler that will not work with SCSI at all unless the "free" end of the SCSI chain is unterminated. I thought it might be something that needed a short cable, but it's happy with 50-pin SCSI ribbon cables over 6 feet long! SCSI is voodoo. SCSI as implemented by musical equipment manufacturers I can't even begin to describe. Gordon From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Apr 1 04:50:03 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:50:03 +0200 Subject: 11/45 - unjustified progress References: <000501c77403$25b9b580$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F93B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Just a tip Jay: check the solder joint of the ICs. Perhaps the logic clip has put some pressure on a bad joint making it somewhat "better"... - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jay West Verzonden: zo 01-04-2007 04:12 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: 11/45 - unjustified progress Well, I dug in to the prints for the RL02 and wrote up notes for myself on all the signals feeding the fault lamp and exactly what pins of what chips they were on (E1 and E2 of the drive logic board). Went downstairs and pushed the BA11-K back into the rack (I had it out to check the ACLO & DCLO signals). I pulled out the RL02 and lifted the logic board and got my notes ready. Instead of a logic probe I decided to use a logic clip. Easier & quicker in this case because I knew just what pins to look at on which chips, and all the signals of interest were on two adjacent chips. I powered up everything including the RX02. When I hit load, the drive spun up and came ready. No fault at all. The RL02 and RX02 both boot & work fine. I've never been quite so disappointed that a system worked, because I know I did nothing to fix it. I tried to recreate the problem all afternoon - with the machine cold, or with it running the instruction set excerciser for hours, no hiccups. The odd part is, the "RL02 faulting upon spinup IFF the RX02 is powered on" WAS completely reproducable, and it never once failed to fail. It failed absolutely 100% of the time for the past few weeks. Not only if it was on when the RL02 spinup was attempted, but if the RX02 was off and the RL02 spun up successfully - the moment you would apply power to the RX02 the RL02 would immediately fault. Now I can't get it to fail, and all I did between times was extend the BA11-K, hook up a probe and look at a few test points, then put it back. Perhaps it is cables. I'll be trying again tomorrow to reproduce the problem and hope it reoccurs :\ Jay This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From bpope at wordstock.com Sun Apr 1 10:00:00 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070401150000.ECB6616287@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chuck Guzis > > On 30 Mar 2007 at 15:06, der Mouse wrote: > > > > --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. > > > > Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. > > How about the digital phone setups? Qwest and Comcast keeps flogging > them, but it's not clear what sort of interface they have on the > subscriber end. > I use Vonage and pulse dialing works with it, but the touch tones generated by a Commodore model 1670 1200 baud modem do not. Cheers, Bryan From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Apr 1 10:02:20 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 08:02:20 -0700 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay In-Reply-To: <460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca> <460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca> <000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <460FC97C.8080302@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm really not familiar with the hardware requirements for TSB but what about > the possibility of it being the I/O processor half of a dual-processor > configuration? Wasn't there a TSB which used two 2116's, one for computation > and one for I/O? I recall configurations that used a 2116 with a 2114 as the I/O processor; I never actually saw a 2116/2116 combination. Chris (Back after a multiyear hiatus) - -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGD8l6VeEgoxCNq5cRAnFBAKDHQl67QfCD8MnxwojHMc/5KpCZ1gCfaVc1 9WGoWF1ogyWhawCx4TbvNvQ= =BvRN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Apr 1 10:35:08 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 08:35:08 -0700 Subject: DN10K Message-ID: <0e0f7e3f3a79beccaf030ba98d770bdd@valleyimplants.com> >> Missing cards? They just might be empty, unused slots in the >> backplane. > > That sounds like you've got the basic compliment. As I recall from my > days > running a network of them, the base DN10K has four cards (Network, > video, > CPU and memory). Extra slots were available for an FPU, more memory > (and > maybe a disk controller?). The CPU should be easy to identify by the > presence of a MC68010 chip. > > The DN10K's typically did not have their own disk drives; instead they > booted (and paged!) off of a "partner" server node having the disk. > The > network adapters (in a plastic box that screwed onto the back) were > spectacularly flaky on those machines. > Apollo DN10k machines were the PRISM (A88k) architecture and would have a multichip (LSI) CPU on the XBus that includes a FPA. The DN10k was a SMP-capable machine, so it is likely that (unless yours is SMP) there will be some extra XBus slots. DN300 was another Apollo oddity- bitslice CPU that (if I was informed correctly) emulates a 68030, and was done to "fill the gap" until Motorola had shipping parts. From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sun Apr 1 10:07:17 2007 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:07:17 -0400 Subject: WYSE WY50 available In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F93B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <000501c77403$25b9b580$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F93B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <5B82360D-A468-4A38-8C4E-F3E2A15A33EA@mind-to-mind.com> Free to a good home ;-) WYSE WY-50 Rev B green. I just turned it on and it appears fine. I'm in RI and would prefer pickup, but I will ship for cost. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 1 10:17:55 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 10:17:55 -0500 Subject: Marbly Heart (Re: Looking for old computer book) In-Reply-To: <215159.94789.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <215159.94789.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070401101711.067c3e70@mail> At 05:04 PM 3/31/2007, Scott Austin wrote: >The idea of using marbles, tilt boards, gates, has been tucked away in my brain to some day emulate **something**. Google 'pythagoras switch' and watch the videos on YouTube. :-) - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 1 11:19:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:19:18 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca><460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca> <000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <000801c77479$7fdb1ec0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >> Something else caught my eye upon re-visiting that ad. Either that >> machine >> never ran HP2000 TSB, or someone has pulled a lot more cards than just >> the >> memory. To which Brent replied.... > I'm really not familiar with the hardware requirements for TSB but what > about > the possibility of it being the I/O processor half of a dual-processor > configuration? Well, I am *very* familiar with the hardware requirements for TSB, and I'm obviously insane. Ok, this is especially embarassing - since HP2000 TSB is my specialty and also the centerpiece of my collection. OBVIOUSLY senility has set in, probably coupled with the fact that I have focused on restoring the DEC pieces in my collection as of late and demonstrably have forgotten everything about my 3 beloved HP TSB machines. Perhaps it's time for an exorcism, to have my DEC daemons cast out so I can get back to my beloved HP2100 machines :) Brent is again completely correct - this does seem to be a valid configuration for the I/O processor in several different versions of TSB. The only thing amiss to me is Brent said there were two GND TRU boards, but I only see one listed in the auction. You would have to have two for sure as the IPCK was always four 12566 boards with 2 on each end. One pair used for sending and one pair used for receiving. > Wasn't there a TSB which used two 2116's, one for computation > and one for I/O? Virtually all TSB variants required 2 cpus. 2000B, 2000C, 2000C', 2000F, 2000F', and 2000/Access all required two cpus. 2000A and 2000E required only one cpu. There are docs for each version stating which processors are valid for the main cpu and which are valid for the IO cpu. I have long suspected that those specifications are incorrect, and that the main and I/O cpu's can be any combination. While C, E, F, and Access OS's are around - 2000A and B don't seem to be so I'm not sure. > and the amount of memory which would be implied by the remaining memory > module cards. I would wager that 2000/Access makes the most demands of the IOP due to the IBM/CDC MRJE stuff, and it's requirements for memory in the IOP are anywhere from 16kw to 32kw depending on software options selected at IOP generation time. I would think that the prior versions of TSB would certainly not need more than Access so I'd have to suspect the memory indicated by the non-SSA cards in the memory subsystem is adequate. > Bob Shannon informed me a while ago that there is a company still > retailing > the core memory module cards, but I have no idea of the price. If someone needs them let me know. I have a pretty huge number of spare HP2100/21MX cards, including the SSA boards that are used by the 2116C. In addition the SSA boards are generally pretty easy to repair. Ok, I'm going to go sit in the corner and hide now! Jay From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 1 11:32:26 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:32:26 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <460F358A.8050105@pacbell.net> References: <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704011534.l31FYR03004570@hosting.monisys.ca> > Dave, all I can say is... (blush) - thanks for the support Jim, it's good to know this stuff is being appreciated. Btw - I've been playing around with some Teledisk images that I have which are "bad" (can't recreate anything looking useful from them), and taking them apart I've found some interesting things. Most of the problems are related to: - If TD thinks it sees data on a track thats not a valid sector, it creates a fake sector to hold it (thats where those mysterious 100, 101 ... sectors come from) - In some cases, this causes the amount of data to exceed the track size and cannot be recreated. - I've found a few images where TD appears to have read tracks twice - generating a complete duplicated sector list - this is obviously way too much information for a physical track to contain. I've added some options to TD02IMD to help strip away some of this extra data and possibly allow the disks to be recreated - The updated program is posted (no doubt I will be making further discoveries, so you might want to check in again in a couple of weeks). > So many half baked ideas get kicked around on the list about what should > be done, but you just go and do it. It's been my experience that small jobs can often be completed by one person with insomnia before a group of people can decide how they would like to start. Thats just the way it is. Besides, I enjoy working on my half-baked ideas early in the morning before the daily din kicks in :-) In a related note, a bit of grumbling.... I've been somewhat disappointed that after posting the TESTFDC program and a request for list subscribers to help me characterize mainboards and floppy controllers (about 2 weeks ago), I have received exactly one submission of information - and even this was taken from an earlier posting, not by the use of my program, and was incomplete (FDC part numbers, but no information as to the mainboards or adapters which were actually tested) - but still very much appreciated. I've been able to test a few more boards, and added a few additional entries, however at this rate it will take a very long time before the resource is even remotely useful ... Although "what do I need to do single density" is one of the top questions I get asked, I can only conclude that this particularly half-baked idea is not seen as worthy of anyone else's effort... So I'm putting it on the back-burner. I'll leave what information I've collected up on the site and keep the TESTFDC program in the ImageDisk distribution as it does help people figure out if their system "can" or "can't". Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 1 10:55:42 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 08:55:42 -0700 Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver In-Reply-To: <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: Hi All I've been able to create a driver to output to a HP printer running PCL. One needs to be able to enter the Forth mode. There were a few application softwares for the Cat that have locked out the Forth access. I've not gotten to these yet to look at how to re-enable the Forth mode. Still, most only have the normal Cat without anything extra. This code should be fine there. There is quite a bit that one can do with the Cat and just the ROM that came with it. Normally the Cat only had drivers for Canon printers and the FX80 type printers ( that were copied by several dot printers of the time ). Since the printer did formatted printing, it required a driver specific to the printer. Since I didn't have a Canon printer and was happy with my HP, I was interrested in adding code that would drive my HP. The Cat has an interesting feature in that it copies the entire RAM to disk. This means that any code entered can be made to come back on each boot without any additional operations. The Cat is programmed in Forth. I figured that I could make the needed modification my self. That was several years ago when I first got the Cat. What I didn't realize was that I had no idea how to decompile the current code or what the various escape sequences meant to the Canon printers. The first big break was finding a couple of manuals at the Stanford Special collections library, left by Jef Rasken before he died. These gave me the needed information on both the Forth and quite a bit on the printer drivers. Understanding a few other bits and pieces came from one of the developers of the Cat ( Charlie Springer ). I never did find anything other than a Japanesse document on the LIPS codes used for the Canon Laser Beam printers. I did fine some for the FX80 and the Canon Bubble Jet. With this information I've been able to determine quite a bit about writing the driver for the HP. I realize that most people would never use any of the printer escape sequences but Canon should make them a little more available. Back on subject. I've created a driver that one can type in. I've not setup propotional spacing yet but it does handle most of the needed operations. I've not looked at any of the foreign character printing yet but as long as one stays with regular the character set, it should be fine. One can use it for its intended purpose ( editor, mail list, speadsheet or whatever ) or one can put their Forth code in and print is all out on a HP with my driver. I hope to get it posted on Bruce's DigiBarn Canon Cat page but until then, if anyone is interested, send an email to me. Dwight dkelvey at hot mail dot com PS I just saw another Cat on ebay. That make three I've seen in the last year or so. _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 1 11:31:52 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 09:31:52 -0700 Subject: Marbly Heart (Re: Looking for old computer book) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070401101711.067c3e70@mail> Message-ID: >From: John Foust > >At 05:04 PM 3/31/2007, Scott Austin wrote: > >The idea of using marbles, tilt boards, gates, has been tucked away in my >brain to some day emulate **something**. > >Google 'pythagoras switch' and watch the videos on YouTube. :-) > >- John > Hi Making the logic elements is easy, that hard part is making a useful size memory. Even for the logic, one has to make a system of amplification. A single marble offsetting a balance isn't useful unless it can be amplified. My thoughts were to have a mechanism similar to how a teletype works. Then idea is to have a lever that provides the power ( human ). It would push a dowel into a location that either had a mable or didn't have a marble. If there was on there, it would push through to another lever that worked the marble action one gravity level up where the next marbles were to provide other action. This way, a single marble could control the action on many marbles. Pulling the lever back would allow the selected mables to drop from the higher level to the bottom level where they would again be used to drive the top level logic action. Marbles would be feed into a hopper at the top of the machine to keep things running. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get intro-rate 4.625%* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5f&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=743 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 1 11:34:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:34:02 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca> <460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca><000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> <460FC97C.8080302@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <001f01c7747b$900bcb80$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Brent wrote... >>Wasn't there a TSB which used two 2116's, one for computation >> and one for I/O? To which Chris K. replied... > I recall configurations that used a 2116 with a 2114 as the I/O > processor; I never actually saw a 2116/2116 combination. According to docs: 2000B main: 2116B,2116C io: 2114A,2114B 2000C main: 2100A, 2100S, 2116B, 2116C io: 2100A, 2100S, 2114A, 2114B, 2116B, 2116C 2000C' main: 2100A, 2100S, 2116B, 2116C io: 2100A, 2100S, 2114B*, 2116B, 2116C 2000F main: 2100A, 2100S io: 2100A, 2100S, 2114B*, 2116B, 2116C 2000F' main: 2100A, 2100S io: 2100A, 2100S, 2114B*, 2116B, 2116C * = if two mux sets are used (32 ports instead of 16) you need an I/O extender if using the 2114B Some of the specifications above make sense as to why some are missing in the list due to slot availability. The 2114A may be missing from some due to power draw requirements of the requisite cards - just guessing. Note the absence of documentation on the M and E series. I know a 2105 can't be used due to slot availability. I also know some docs said not to mix M and E machines. I can't see any reason why not. However, by and large, I suspect the two cpu's could really be anything. While 2116 & 2116 isn't documented as valid I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. There is also specific documentation stating that you can't mix 2100A/S and 21MX systems. Once the system is up and running I suspect there is no reason why you couldn't mix them. However, booting them in a mixed setup may be difficult as I remember some issues about the paper tape cross loader that made loading different between 21MX and 2100 systems. That may cause an issue mixing them. I'd have to go back and refresh my memory on that one. Jay From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 1 11:05:05 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 13:05:05 -0300 Subject: IMI disk drive on Cromemco Message-ID: <01C7745E.5F1F8EC0@MSE_D03> ------------------Original Message Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:02:51 -0400 From: info Subject: IMI disk drive on Cromemco I have a Cromemco system that came with a IMI model 7700 Hard Drive. The drive was working when I got it but was having read errors. I begun backup up the files and planned on reformatting. I was able to back up the files I need but head a thump like something hit the drive of the drive. This is a 10" 5 meg drive with a plastic clear top. The drive then began to fail so I power it off and looked around as much as I could through the top. I power it back up and now the drive will begun ready. The heads look like they never go through the headload process but I can't be sure. If I move the unit I can see that the head actuator lets the heads float freely in and out.. I have measured all the power supply voltages going to the drive and they are good. I don't think it was a head crash as I don't see signs on the platters as much as I can see through the plastic. The top does look like it can be remove but I don't have a clean room I'm holding off until that is the last resort. I worked on CDC drives so this looks like one only smaller and without the little brush that would sweep the drives before the heads loaded. I don't have a manual so I'm limited to what I can do. I have a few questions if anyone can help with. The head lock does disengage when power is applied. Does the drive need to come up to speed before voltage is applied to the actuator? Does anyone know where I can find more out on this drive Should I get ready to make two wall clocks out of the platters? ----------------Reply: I think Herb Johnson will be able to supply you with a service manual: http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/d_crom.html (7710 IMI 7700 hard disk, 023-6027, January 1982, 100 pp.) I have one of these drives but it hasn't been powered up for at least 20 years, so I doubt that it's still good; they weren't too reliable even then. There was also a 7720 (22MB) version of this drive; they were superseded by the 5000 (5"FH) IMI drives before Cromemco finally went to ST-506. I also have the 7000 installation manual, but it only covers connectors, switches and schematics for the power supply. Get ready to make those clocks, but check it out a little more first... Good luck! mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 1 11:20:52 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 13:20:52 -0300 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility Message-ID: <01C77460.9483DA60@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message: Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:32:26 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility ... In a related note, a bit of grumbling.... I've been somewhat disappointed that after posting the TESTFDC program and a request for list subscribers to help me characterize mainboards and floppy controllers (about 2 weeks ago), I have received exactly one submission of information ... ---------Reply: Dave: Haven't yet had a need for ImageDisk, but let me add my appreciation for your efforts and for sharing it with us. Re TESTFDC: At a fast glance, I couldn't tell what type of floppy drive(s?) should be connected, or if it even matters? mike From gkaufman at the-planet.org Sun Apr 1 12:22:19 2007 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 13:22:19 -0400 Subject: Intellec 4 In-Reply-To: <200704011703.l31H2cHb038695@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704011703.l31H2cHb038695@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <460FEA4B.4010207@the-planet.org> I was given an Intellec 4, but unfortunately no documentation. Also included was a smaller PCB intel 05-0436-000 which also includes American Optical P/N 11761-450. The board is about 4.5 x 5" with a 44 pin edge connector at one end, a 40 pin socket connector, and a 50 pin IDC header at the other end. It includes the usual 4004 chipset (4004, 4201, 4001x4 and 4002x2) with date codes from '74-'78 I'd like to get the Intellec 4 back to operation, anyone have documentation they could share? Also if anyone knows anything about the American Optical board I'd appreciate information. I'm not looking to sell or Ebay the unit - any help would be so that I could enjoy the system myself, and document it for the future. It's got a s/n below 20 - just curious if anyone knows how many Intellec 4's were actually produced. I had an Intellec 4-40 back in the mid 1980's that I saved from a scrapyard and donated, but that's that last time I have seen one personally. Many thanks for any help! - Gary From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 12:32:48 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 13:32:48 -0400 Subject: looking for VMS installation CDROM Message-ID: Well, I do not want to boot the installed system; I only want the process of installing. I guess I do not need a hobbyst license for this purpose. If so, would somebody sell me his un-used VMS CDROM? Any version is file. Price should be less than the official copy. Please contact me. Thank you! vax, 9000 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 1 13:11:06 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 13:11:06 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <200704011534.l31FYR03004570@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704011534.l31FYR03004570@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <460FF5BA.8060503@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > In a related note, a bit of grumbling.... > I've been somewhat disappointed that after posting the TESTFDC program > and a request for list subscribers to help me characterize mainboards > and floppy controllers (about 2 weeks ago), I have received exactly one > submission of information - and even this was taken from an earlier > posting, not by the use of my program, and was incomplete (FDC part > numbers, but no information as to the mainboards or adapters which were > actually tested) - but still very much appreciated. I tried a handful of machines here, but with no useful positive results. It's been at the back of my mind to ask you, though: is it at all useful to also collect information on what mainboards/adapters are known to *read* various "non PC" disks OK? Whilst writing is obviously desirable, reading at least allows people to contribute to any kind of global repository (even if they can't recreate submissions from others). I too was surprised that there weren't more contributions from people who'd tried the utility, though. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 1 14:53:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 20:53:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 - unjustified progress In-Reply-To: <000501c77403$25b9b580$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 31, 7 09:12:05 pm Message-ID: [...] > I powered up everything including the RX02. When I hit load, the drive spun > up and came ready. No fault at all. The RL02 and RX02 both boot & work fine. Oh %deity... You've got the worst sort of fault there, one that disappears when you look for it. Since you've done nothing to really cure it, you will always worry it'll come back and bite you sometime.... been there, done that.. [...] > Perhaps it is cables. I'll be trying again tomorrow to reproduce the problem > and hope it reoccurs :\ My guess is a bad connection somewhere that you disturbed when looking at the signals in the RL02. Maybe a bad contact at one of the cable connecotrs, maybe a dry joint on a chip in the RL02 (althogh to be fair, dry joints are not ocmmon in DEC hardware). One thing is certain. It's a total waste of time looking for a fault that's not (currently) there. Unless you can get it to come back, there's little, if anything, you can really do .Cleaning and reseating the conenctors may make you feel a little happier, but, equally, it may have nothing at all to do with the problem. -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 1 19:48:05 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 20:48:05 -0400 Subject: DN10K References: <0e0f7e3f3a79beccaf030ba98d770bdd@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <000701c774c0$946fdb90$0100a8c0@screamer> > DN300 was another Apollo oddity- bitslice CPU that (if I was informed > correctly) emulates a 68030, and was done to "fill the gap" until Motorola > had shipping parts. I think this is incorrect. The DN300 is a 68000 based machine, the DN330 is a 68010 based 'upgrade' of the DN300 The DN6xx series used bitslice emulations of the 68030, specifically the DN660. BTW, I have a DN660 and a spare board set and SMD drive if anyone is interested (located in central MA). I also have some other Apollo hardware like a booting DN4500, etc. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 1 19:50:35 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 20:50:35 -0400 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca><460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca><000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> <000801c77479$7fdb1ec0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000b01c774c0$ed7d6770$0100a8c0@screamer> Jay, Remember you have some of my 2116 core boards I loaned out to you! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:19 PM Subject: Re: HP 2116 on ebay >I had written.... >>> Something else caught my eye upon re-visiting that ad. Either that >>> machine >>> never ran HP2000 TSB, or someone has pulled a lot more cards than just >>> the >>> memory. > > To which Brent replied.... >> I'm really not familiar with the hardware requirements for TSB but what >> about >> the possibility of it being the I/O processor half of a dual-processor >> configuration? > > Well, I am *very* familiar with the hardware requirements for TSB, and I'm > obviously insane. Ok, this is especially embarassing - since HP2000 TSB is > my specialty and also the centerpiece of my collection. OBVIOUSLY senility > has set in, probably coupled with the fact that I have focused on > restoring the DEC pieces in my collection as of late and demonstrably have > forgotten everything about my 3 beloved HP TSB machines. Perhaps it's time > for an exorcism, to have my DEC daemons cast out so I can get back to my > beloved HP2100 machines :) > > Brent is again completely correct - this does seem to be a valid > configuration for the I/O processor in several different versions of TSB. > The only thing amiss to me is Brent said there were two GND TRU boards, > but I only see one listed in the auction. You would have to have two for > sure as the IPCK was always four 12566 boards with 2 on each end. One pair > used for sending and one pair used for receiving. > >> Wasn't there a TSB which used two 2116's, one for computation >> and one for I/O? > Virtually all TSB variants required 2 cpus. 2000B, 2000C, 2000C', 2000F, > 2000F', and 2000/Access all required two cpus. 2000A and 2000E required > only one cpu. There are docs for each version stating which processors are > valid for the main cpu and which are valid for the IO cpu. I have long > suspected that those specifications are incorrect, and that the main and > I/O cpu's can be any combination. While C, E, F, and Access OS's are > around - 2000A and B don't seem to be so I'm not sure. > >> and the amount of memory which would be implied by the remaining memory >> module cards. > I would wager that 2000/Access makes the most demands of the IOP due to > the IBM/CDC MRJE stuff, and it's requirements for memory in the IOP are > anywhere from 16kw to 32kw depending on software options selected at IOP > generation time. I would think that the prior versions of TSB would > certainly not need more than Access so I'd have to suspect the memory > indicated by the non-SSA cards in the memory subsystem is adequate. > >> Bob Shannon informed me a while ago that there is a company still >> retailing >> the core memory module cards, but I have no idea of the price. > If someone needs them let me know. I have a pretty huge number of spare > HP2100/21MX cards, including the SSA boards that are used by the 2116C. In > addition the SSA boards are generally pretty easy to repair. > > Ok, I'm going to go sit in the corner and hide now! > > Jay > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 1 15:05:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 13:05:51 -0700 Subject: IMI disk drive on Cromemco In-Reply-To: <01C7745E.5F1F8EC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C7745E.5F1F8EC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <460FAE2F.10238.1AD10745@cclist.sydex.com> I don't know if this applies to the 7700, but I do recall that the 5000 was somewhat finicky about being level. IIRC, if one inclines the drive so that the positioner is working against gravity, you'll get seek failures. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 1 15:24:50 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <460FF5BA.8060503@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704011534.l31FYR03004570@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704011926.l31JQr8f015378@hosting.monisys.ca> > I tried a handful of machines here, but with no useful positive results. It's > been at the back of my mind to ask you, though: is it at all useful to also > collect information on what mainboards/adapters are known to *read* various > "non PC" disks OK? Useful results include which boards/controllers don't work - If someone is trying to assemble a system to do imaging. knowing that the board he is considering doesn't work is the next best thing to knowing that it does (otherwise he has to acquire it and test it - and then dispose of it again if it does not). Knowing that SD can be read is useful - but TESTFDC can't check for this as it has to create the SD disk in the first place. I haven't actually run across one yet that can read but not write (although I may have and just don't know it). Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 1 15:24:50 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <01C77460.9483DA60@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200704011926.l31JQr8j015378@hosting.monisys.ca> > Re TESTFDC: > At a fast glance, I couldn't tell what type of floppy drive(s?) should be connected, > or if it even matters? TESTFDC will by default look at the BIOS setting to determine the drive type, so if you have drives configured correctly for the BIOS it should work. It will prompt you to insert low-density and then high-density (for dual density drives) so that it can test all of the modes and data rates that the drive can support. If you are like me and have a big long cable hanging out of the back that you can connect any drive you like to (or you just want to stuff on another drive to test), and would prefer not the have to keep changing the BIOS, you can test TESTFDC which drive type to test. The available types are: 360 = 300rpm LD 40-track drive (normaly 5.25") 720 = 300rpm LD 80-track drive (either 5.25" or 3.5") 1.2 = 360rpm HD 80-track drive (normally 5.25") 1.44 - 300rpm HD 80-track drive (normally 3.5") eg: TESTFDC A: 360 In all cases, TESTFDC writes only the top 5 tracks of the drive, so you can usually put it on a plain DOS boot disk. - use it for both booting and testing. In my own case, I have a 5.25" HD drive modified with a front panel switch for 300/360 rpm - in the 300rpm setting, it looks like a 720, and in the 360rpm setting it looks like a 1.2 - This lets me test all possible data rates with just the one drive. But you can test all data rates with any combination of a 5.25" HD and any other drive type. Even if you can't test all data rates (ie you have only one drive) send me the results anyway - I simply list the rates not tested as 'N' (not tested). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 15:52:44 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 16:52:44 -0400 Subject: looking for VMS installation CDROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for your help and I got what I want. vax, 9000 On 4/1/07, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Well, I do not want to boot the installed system; I only want the process > of installing. I guess I do not need a hobbyst license for this purpose. If > so, would somebody sell me his un-used VMS CDROM? Any version is file. Price > should be less than the official copy. Please contact me. Thank you! > > vax, 9000 > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 1 16:29:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:29:06 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <460F358A.8050105@pacbell.net> References: <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> <460F358A.8050105@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <46102422.5020302@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: > Where are all the people that were bitching because you didn't want to > release the source code of imagedisk until you were ready? > > So many half baked ideas get kicked around on the list about what should > be done, but you just go and do it. Seconded. A while ago I selfishly bitched that it wouldn't run on my 5150; after a few test binaries and back-and-forth testing, now it does. A class act. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From MGemeny at pgcps.org Sun Apr 1 19:30:22 2007 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 20:30:22 -0400 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay Message-ID: <15EDC737436349459458881C284C88DB41C3E3@PGCPS2K3EXIS1.pgcps.org> Making sense of the history of this processor was what started me on quite a research project today. It really looks like it became the IOP when the system was upgraded to F and if it was part of the system at retirement, that system was never upgraded to Access. It could have originally been a TSB A, but perhaps more likely started as the Main processor of a TSB B. It could have started life as the main of a C but more likely an A or B than a C. I just seems to me to be too big to have started as an A, and too old to have started as a C. If it were to have been a TSB B Main processor, it would not make much sense to purchase a newer processor to upgrade the system to a C (I don?t think C needed the floating point instructions). But then an upgrade from B, C or C? to F would have purchased a new CPU for use as the main (because F needed the floating point micro-code in the main), repurposed the old main to become the new IOP, and retired the old IOP. An upgrade to Access would have retired this processor before the system was retired and the IO cards would have been repurposed in yet another new processor (Access needed both floating point micro-code in the main and IOP micro-code in the IOP.) So, it ended it?s life as an IOP of a C? or F (most likely F). It started it?s life as an A or the Main of a B or C (most likely the Main of a B). All just my best guess from a day?s research. YMMV If anyone is going to ask the seller a question, it would be cool to find out where the system was once installed. Thanks. Hope this helps, Mike Gemeny From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 1 22:46:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:46:49 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca><460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca><000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca><000801c77479$7fdb1ec0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> <000b01c774c0$ed7d6770$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <003b01c774d9$8b655e30$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote.... > Remember you have some of my 2116 core boards I loaned out to you! You loaned me one SSA core board. I put a lable on it identifying it as yours. It was shipped back to you a couple years ago. I will dig through old emails to see what transpired on it.... Jay From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 1 23:27:41 2007 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 00:27:41 EDT Subject: HP- 2000A cast metal escutcheons own a piece of the first hp TSB system! we Message-ID: EMAIL ME AT THE MUSEUM SITE. due to too many email messages I am not active on as many lists such as here. Please go to the museum site and email me if you want one of these.. HP- 2000A cast metal escutcheons own a piece of the first hp TSB system! we have some of these artifacts extra.... eons ago our company bout 20 2000a glass front cabinets ( empty) which we sold as cabinets for rack modems to a client. I made sure we kept the nice Big HP 2000A Thingies. I think there are 4 left These are for trade for items of merit that enhance the museum here. Ed Sharpe, Archivist for SMECC See the Museum's Web Site at _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) We are always looking for items to add to the museum's display and ref. library - please advise if you have anything we can use. Coury House / SMECC 5802 W. Palmaire Ave. Phone 623-435-1522 Glendale Az 85301 USA ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From wayne.smith at charter.net Sun Apr 1 23:20:15 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 04:20:15 -0000 Subject: Looking for old Ads In-Reply-To: <200704011120.l31BJmCF035315@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a901c1d9fd$76b60c40$6701a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:11:20 -0500 > From: "Keys" > Subject: Looking for old Ads > To: "cctalk at classiccmp" > Message-ID: <008401c773e1$8d0cca50$31406b43 at 66067007> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I'm looking for old Honeywell ads running from 1964 to 1978 > showing the > various animals made from computer parts/chips. I was just > given a set of > pewter animals that Honeywell had made to give away showing > some not all of > the 100 animals made for the ads. I would like to have copy > the ad that goes > with each of the animals that I got today. I got one good ad > from this site > today http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/oldads.htm , so if anyone > can point me to > other it would great. > > John > Hi John: Had a look on Ebay Stores (don't know if you've looked there yet) and there appear to be a number of them: Item nos.: 180098262232 7250302820 230029549992 7222010690 160055542455 180079209700 7231522824 160057990955 7246877769 7232123997 Also, possibly: 140077822044 These types of ads appear to have run through 1972. -W From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 2 01:10:31 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 23:10:31 -0700 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca><460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca> <000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <460F5702.F901D69D@cs.ubc.ca> <000801c77479$7fdb1ec0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46109E4E.C5834B15@cs.ubc.ca> Jay West wrote: > The only thing amiss to me is Brent said there were two GND TRU boards, but > I only see one listed in the auction. You would have to have two for sure as > the IPCK was always four 12566 boards with 2 on each end. One pair used for > sending and one pair used for receiving. This is one of the discrepancies between the seller's card list and the picture. Looking at the (large) card cage picture one can observe that the 3rd and 4th boards from the left on the I/O level are (visibly) identical. Eliminating other cards in the seller's list, and a little deduction suggests they would both be GND-TRUE IN/OUT boards. Conseqeuently, I believe this is a more accurate list for the I/O level: A201 CENTRAL INTERR. GND-TRUE IN/OUT GND-TRUE IN/OUT TIME BASE GEN MUX a \ MUX b | 1st mux set MUX c / MUX a \ MUX b | 2nd mux set MUX c / - - - ... > > and the amount of memory which would be implied by the remaining memory > > module cards. > I would wager that 2000/Access makes the most demands of the IOP due to the > IBM/CDC MRJE stuff, and it's requirements for memory in the IOP are anywhere > from 16kw to 32kw depending on software options selected at IOP generation > time. I would think that the prior versions of TSB would certainly not need > more than Access so I'd have to suspect the memory indicated by the non-SSA > cards in the memory subsystem is adequate. Sorry, I left out a phrase, I thought 16-24 KWords would be excessive for the task. I can understand the separate IOP to offload all the work of multiplexed bit-banging for 16-32 ports, but I didn't think the code and buffer size requirements in the IOP would be very great. (With RJE stuff in there, there's more going on than I was aware of.) From cleng at classicad.cz Mon Apr 2 04:37:12 2007 From: cleng at classicad.cz (=?iso-8859-2?B?yGVzdG3tciBMZW5n4Ww=?=) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:37:12 +0200 Subject: rs232 capture? Message-ID: Dear Brad, I remembered my old program ASDAT. What is ASDAT? It is a DOS tool for capturing and examining captures for capturing and examining data communication on RS232 line. It works on any DOS computer which has 2 serial ports. Using special probe (two 25-pin CANON male/female connectors + two cables connecting probe to serial ports) it captures data + modem signals including exact time information (resolution is 0.05ms). The speed of communication can be up to 19200Bd. Data are stored in the buffer (size is 8kB characters). Data can be saved to disk file after capturing. Data are showed during capture and can be examined after capture ends. There is also possibility of triggering - if you are looking for some special sequence of data on communication line. There is also way to export data from captured file (both directions together or separately). If you are interested in ASDAT I can send you a demo (i.e. ASDAT without ability to capture + some captured files) to try the user interface. I can send you also full version free of charge if you are able to make the probe yourself (BTW 15 years ago ASDAT was being sold for about 5000 CZK - about 250 USD). There was also some other development in ASDAT (new version was written for 32-bit DOS environment): - bigger (nearly unlimited) data buffer - baud rate up to 115200Bd - continuous data capturing to file etc. As far as I can remember the new version was finished but never distributed. ASDAT was never moved to Windows. Regards Cestmir Lengal ClassiCAD, Zlin Czech Republic cleng at classicad.cz From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Apr 2 05:48:16 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:48:16 +0100 Subject: free to good home: ibm 8513 (UK) Message-ID: <2f806cd70704020348l79a20b65k14ef2b85cda1dc61@mail.gmail.com> Does anybody want a small (13") IBM colour monitor Model 8513002 ? Worked fine when last used, some years ago.. little grubby now from being stored in the attic though. I'm in Manchester, UK. I'd rather not try and post it, so if anybody is in the area or passing and wants it, please pipe up :-) Rob From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 2 11:48:49 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:48:49 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [comp.os.vms] Digital Storageworks equipment for sale... Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 19:28:34 -0500 Groups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec From: "Schroeder, AJ" Org: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Subject: Digital Storageworks equipment for sale... Id: <46104e02$0$5781$4c368faf at roadrunner.com> ======== Hello group, I have quite a bit of Digital Storageworks equipment that I have collected over the past few years. I am looking to sell some of it off. I figured that I would give the newsgroup members first dibs on it, then I will go to eBay. I have multiple BA35x towers (tan and blue) with the fans, personality modules, and power supply units, some of them even have the complete "skins" with the doors and stands. If anyone wants them, I have a bunch of 4 GB tan and 9GB blue SBBs available. Also I have SCSI cables of varying lengths and connector types. All of this is coming from my personal collection of pieces and parts and all parts are known to be in working order and in good condition. I can sell some individual items off as parts, but I would like to sell a couple towers as whole packages. Shipping can be negotitated if outside the US, although I am told that there are massive amounts of fees if shipping is outside the US so it may not be worth it. I am in the Milwaukee, WI area so if you are near me local pickup can be arranged. Please email ajschroeder at no-spamhotmail.com (remove no-spam first) for a complete list of parts. Thanks, AJ Schroeder From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 2 12:22:42 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:22:42 -0300 Subject: IMI disk drive on Cromemco Message-ID: <01C77532.AC14B000@MSE_D03> ------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 13:05:51 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: IMI disk drive on Cromemco I don't know if this applies to the 7700, but I do recall that the 5000 was somewhat finicky about being level. IIRC, if one inclines the drive so that the positioner is working against gravity, you'll get seek failures. Cheers, Chuck -----------Reply: Good point, although that applies to most of the old drives (especially those with a linear positioner); installation guides usually specifically disallowed any orientation like that. And of course any old drive with potentially slightly worn parts should always be used in the same orientation and given lots of warm-up time before writing to it. While we're taking about the 5000, the 5MB 5007 drive's index sensor often caused problems. It used a poorly mounted reflective optical sensor which could easily move; also, dust would accumulate in the index disk holes and on the reflective surface. mike From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Apr 2 13:29:38 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:29:38 -0400 Subject: Analog character generation for CRT's and American Used Computer/DEC Pr0n Message-ID: <461113520200003700001742@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> I think last month someone here asked for a link to an article they had seen where X-Y waveforms were generated for CRT character generation. I believe the link they want is this: http://www.nixiebunny.com/crtgen/crtgen.html Also on David's web site, and by my accounting completely classiccmp-worthy is this picture (from a 70's National Geographic magazine!) of the proprieter of American Used Computer, standing between H960's filled with lots of DEC Mini's and peripherals: http://www.nixiebunny.com/sonny.jpg Tim. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 2 15:04:00 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:04:00 -0700 Subject: Cost Of Technology Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47B840@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Recently, I tried to make a point about the cost of rolling products being a detriment to product change. I was more optimistic than I thought. Here's something from today's EETimes on the costs of innovation. I was way low. Even disk drive vendors figure $30-50 million to bring out a new drive. Change is done to survive, not to satisfy some marketing whim. Billy Quote from: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198701495 In the new IC world order, fewer integrated device manufacturers (IDMs) can afford to build fabs, while only an elite group may be able to develop leading-edge IC designs over time. At the 45-nm node, a new 300-mm fab costs about $3 billion, process technology R&D runs $2.4 billion and a "mask set" is up to $9 million, Synopsys said. Test costs, meanwhile, continue to be flat. IC design costs range between $20 million and $50 million, the EDA company estimated. And there's a new problem on the block: process variation. Identified as one of the new "pressure points" at the 45-nm node, variation is becoming one of the root causes of chip failures. Much of the data is uncertain for the 32-nm node and beyond, but some say that by then, a new 300-mm fab could go for $10 billion, as process R&D costs reach $3 billion and design costs $75 million. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 2 16:50:17 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? Message-ID: Has anyone here pondered a 32-bit CPU in the spirit of the Magic-1? How much harder would that be? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 2 17:48:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:48:17 -0400 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? Message-ID: <0JFW00G747A95GFG@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? > From: David Griffith > Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Has anyone here pondered a 32-bit CPU in the spirit of the Magic-1? How >much harder would that be? Yes, but I'll likely not build it. Harder only by a little, maybe 2x the parts. I find that simply bigger (more bits) often is nice thinking but I always do the "whatif" in instruction set and the like. When it comes to building from raw ttl I find myself specualting on longer words with multiple address schemes or something simple like PDP8 but say 16bits. No matter what it would be s software orphan. Allison >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From grant at stockly.com Mon Apr 2 19:06:35 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:06:35 -0800 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> I've thought about it. I actually entered half the schematics for the Magic-1 into my schematic program. I was going to produce some PCBs for it for a kit. I ended up giving up because I needed to spend time on the Altair effort. A goal of mine would probably be a TTL 8080 or completely a transistorized (as in pbysical little black dots : ) ) 8080. The idea behind that is it could be an extension to the Altair kit... I have thought about a 32 bit CPU built like the Magic 1, and in fact drew up the schematic for the ALU. I thought it would be fun to build a computer using parts available in 1975 that was capable of decoding an MP3. For speed designed a schematic for a 32x32 combinatorial multiplier. :) I think I estimated it would draw 5A (just the multiplier)... ; ) And no, it would not be the same if it were in an FPGA. : ) The 8080/transistor computer would have an LED for every transistor. Can you imagine how cool it would be to single step that thing? : ) Grant >Has anyone here pondered a 32-bit CPU in the spirit of the Magic-1? How >much harder would that be? > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Apr 2 19:50:12 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:50:12 -0700 Subject: PDP-6 questions Message-ID: I'm hoping to start a thread that might answer some questions about the PDP-6 that I've so far been unable to get resolved through Google or other means. This is all mostly spurred on by finally getting around to reading Steven Levy's "Hackers" after 23 years, and reading about the role the PDP-6 played in the early Hacker culture around MIT's Tech Square and Stanford's SAIL. It seems like the PDP-6 is one of the least well preserved of DEC's systems, maybe even the "Holy Grail" (at least to some folks). Without further ado, the questions: 1) Are there any complete PDP-6s anywhere at all? 2) Does the Computer History Museum in Mountain View have any PDP-6 artifacts? 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or urban legend? 4) Does any PDP-6 software still exist, especially PDP-6 ITS ? (I haven't found any on Bitsavers, so I'm guessing the answer is "no") 5) Does anyone have any PDP-6 stories they'd like to share with the group? I'm hoping #5 spurs on some good discussion. -Seth From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 2 21:22:49 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:22:49 -0700 Subject: ARTIC Hardware Message-ID: <4611BA79.1FBD6B0F@rain.org> I met a woman today who has done considerable software work with ARTIC. The website that has a bunch of the hardware for sale is at http://www.quadron.com/. I've already put her in touch with Al regarding the manuals, etc. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 2 21:32:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:32:23 -0700 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46115A47.11287.2159378B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2007 at 14:50, David Griffith wrote: > Has anyone here pondered a 32-bit CPU in the spirit of the Magic-1? How > much harder would that be? I'll guess that by this you mean a CPU with a 32-bit word size. There are always FPGA designs, but I'll assume that you mean a CPU built from TTL SSI/MSI. Do you have a speed requirement? Designing one with a bit-serial ALU might not be a bad approach not requiring a mountain of logic. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 2 21:34:31 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I've thought about it. I actually entered half the schematics for the > Magic-1 into my schematic program. I was going to produce some PCBs for it > for a kit. I ended up giving up because I needed to spend time on the > Altair effort. Nifty! I entered the ALU and part of the control board entered into gschem with the same intent. Perhaps we could collaborate on that later on. I made some alterations to allow use of a bog-standard VME chassis. > A goal of mine would probably be a TTL 8080 or completely a > transistorized (as in pbysical little black dots : ) ) 8080. The idea > behind that is it could be an extension to the Altair kit... On one of the pages linked from the homebrewcpu.org page is a project that uses surface-mount transistors on what amount to tiny flipchips. If you're insane enough to try a discrete 8080, go with that approach. > I have thought about a 32 bit CPU built like the Magic 1, and in fact drew > up the schematic for the ALU. I thought it would be fun to build a > computer using parts available in 1975 that was capable of decoding an > MP3. For speed designed a schematic for a 32x32 combinatorial > multiplier. :) I think I estimated it would draw 5A (just the > multiplier)... ; ) At that rate, the complete machine might demand 20 amps or more. > And no, it would not be the same if it were in an FPGA. : ) Of course! > The 8080/transistor computer would have an LED for every transistor. Can > you imagine how cool it would be to single step that thing? : ) At least I'd like to have LED displays for each bus, each flag, and each register. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 2 23:15:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:15:38 -0600 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4611D4EA.2030701@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > I've thought about it. I actually entered half the schematics for the > Magic-1 into my schematic program. I was going to produce some PCBs for > it for a kit. I ended up giving up because I needed to spend time on > the Altair effort. > > A goal of mine would probably be a TTL 8080 or completely a > transistorized (as in pbysical little black dots : ) ) 8080. The idea > behind that is it could be an extension to the Altair kit... See Bitsavers, under AMD you have a 2901 version of the 8080. The only hard work is the PCB and getting the software/microcode compiled. > I have thought about a 32 bit CPU built like the Magic 1, and in fact > drew up the schematic for the ALU. I thought it would be fun to build a > computer using parts available in 1975 that was capable of decoding an > MP3. For speed designed a schematic for a 32x32 combinatorial > multiplier. :) I think I estimated it would draw 5A (just the > multiplier)... ; ) > The 8080/transistor computer would have an LED for every transistor. > Can you imagine how cool it would be to single step that thing? : ) A PDP-8 Style computer you might be able to build. OH - Heck ... Just mass produce HAL-9000 from 2001. It may be better logic than TODAY's AI stuff. > Grant > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 2 23:29:41 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 20:29:41 -0800 Subject: PDP-6 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:50 PM -0700 4/2/07, Seth Morabito wrote: >1) Are there any complete PDP-6s anywhere at all? Not that I'm aware of, though I can think of a couple places that might. >2) Does the Computer History Museum in Mountain View have any PDP-6 artifacts? They are one of the places that I'm thinking might have a -6, or at least parts of one. >3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a >complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or >urban legend? I don't know if it was a -6, but it was something historically important, and to the best of my knowledge the answer is yes. >4) Does any PDP-6 software still exist, especially PDP-6 ITS ? (I >haven't found any on Bitsavers, so I'm guessing the answer is "no") Again, not that I'm aware of, and I'm pretty sure I'd be aware of this. >5) Does anyone have any PDP-6 stories they'd like to share with the group? > > >I'm hoping #5 spurs on some good discussion. > >-Seth You'd most likely get better answers to these questions on alt.sys.pdp10. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bear at typewritten.org Mon Apr 2 22:52:26 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 20:52:26 -0700 Subject: Scitex NuBus card ID? Message-ID: <2C7E151F-88B9-41BD-A925-98545CA81BB8@typewritten.org> I just picked up a Scitex NuBus card at surplus a couple days ago. Anybody have any guesses what it is? The only connector on the card is the DIN96 NuBus connector. There are two sets of empty pads for 96-pin connectors (4 rows of 24 pads). Major chips include a Cypress CY7C342 EPLD, 40 MHz Motorola XC96002 DSP, and a custom LSI QFP marked "COLOR-SCITEX". There are a fair number of RAM devices, too, including MT5C1008 20ns 128Kx8 SRAM in one group of 8 and one group of 5, MT42C8256 70ns 256Kx8 DRAM in one group of 8, and four CY7C199 35ns 32Kx8 SRAM chips. Silkscreen marks include SCITEX, "S.C.N. II", "ZEN", "PS QUAD", and "QUAD CS". Stickers include "NURIT" and "VS500048/ 5". Guesses? The only Scitex card for Macintosh I can even verify exists is the ResoLUT, which accelerates color space translations. Not sure though if that's what I have. Any ideas? ok bear From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 3 00:31:17 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:31:17 -0700 Subject: Wyse 60 and 110 Terminals on Craigslist Message-ID: <4611E6A5.587D23EA@rain.org> A listing for some Wyse terminals is on Craigslist at http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/sys/304913513.html. I don't know if she will ship them or not but the price sure seems right. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 3 00:53:57 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:53:57 -0700 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4611EBE7.89267E57@cs.ubc.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > > A goal of mine would probably be a TTL 8080 or Just rumour to me, but circa 1980 when I was doing some software development with the spanky new 68000, I was told that the 68000 had been prototyped as (literally) a large wall of SSI/MSI logic. From grant at stockly.com Tue Apr 3 01:49:05 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:49:05 -0800 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402224534.02601820@pop.1and1.com> >Nifty! I entered the ALU and part of the control board entered into >gschem with the same intent. Perhaps we could collaborate on that later >on. I made some alterations to allow use of a bog-standard VME chassis. Sure. I still don't quite understand everything about the user modes or addressing. Its possible that it I understand it and just don't think it could be that simple. : ) >On one of the pages linked from the homebrewcpu.org page is a project that >uses surface-mount transistors on what amount to tiny flipchips. If >you're insane enough to try a discrete 8080, go with that approach. I saw that. If I were to do anything like that I would want it to be an educational tool. And for people who want to build it for fun, art. The thing needs to lay flat so it could hang on a wall. Don't tell me you wouldn't want to hang CP/M on the wall... : ) >At that rate, the complete machine might demand 20 amps or more. Sure. And with a 5MHz clock it would multiply at the speed of a 100MHz+ 486. : ) >At least I'd like to have LED displays for each bus, each flag, and each >register. In a little Altair 680 sized box! Grant From grant at stockly.com Tue Apr 3 01:50:54 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:50:54 -0800 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <4611D4EA.2030701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402224910.05378eb8@pop.1and1.com> >See Bitsavers, under AMD you have a 2901 version of the 8080. >The only hard work is the PCB and getting the software/microcode >compiled. There is an AMD and signetics 8080 emulator on bitsavers. I'm not sure which one is the best or fastest... I think the AMD microcode was compiled. It came with a listing I think??? Grant From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Apr 3 08:00:31 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:00:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-6 questions Message-ID: <461217AF0200003700001816@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Seth asks: > 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a > complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or > urban legend? I don't know about the BCM, but I have a couple of boards from decomissioned PDP-6's. They were not disassembled out of malice but out of lack of facility to store them. > 4) Does any PDP-6 software still exist, especially PDP-6 ITS ? (I > haven't found any on Bitsavers, so I'm guessing the answer is "no") In between scraps found on the DECUS sources and some files I've cobbled together over the years from friends in the southern hemisphere, I think I have two mostly complete sets of sources for the PDP-6 monitor. I discussed this a bit on alt.sys.pdp10 last year. Get me worked up and I might actually get them to build :-). Right now they're at http://pdp-6.trailing-edge.com/ Note that most of the early DECUS LIB-10 entries are actually PDP-6 software (with occasional notes on what you have to patch/modify to make it work on a -10). I highly recommend that you browse them. Last year on alt.sys.pdp10 I also initiated some discussions about the MACRO differences necessary to assemble the earliest source files (where the syntax was slightly different). I have mentioned to Al that I am very interested in the oldest 36-bit Macro source files that he has from the LCG archives. I suspect there's at least some interesting stuff there but it's hard to sort out. Tim. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 3 08:05:56 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:05:56 -0700 Subject: ARTIC Hardware In-Reply-To: <4611BA79.1FBD6B0F@rain.org> References: <4611BA79.1FBD6B0F@rain.org> Message-ID: <46125134.5060008@msm.umr.edu> Marvin Johnston wrote: > http://www.quadron.com/. > It would be interesting to see if she has any of the Bus and Tag cards. They were RTIC card subsystems in both flavors. There are a lot of the "controller "flavor" floating around since they were used in the P390's that were used as network controllers. Also escon systems of the same type might have had some things in common with the RTIC cards. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 3 10:10:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:10:23 -0700 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <4611EBE7.89267E57@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com>, <4611EBE7.89267E57@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46120BEF.27929.240F3040@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2007 at 22:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Just rumour to me, but circa 1980 when I was doing some software development > with the spanky new 68000, I was told that the 68000 had been prototyped > as (literally) a large wall of SSI/MSI logic. I believe that was true of the 6809. Somewhere there was published an interview (BYTE, probably) with a member of the design team where he mentions this. Cheers, Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Tue Apr 3 12:06:13 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:06:13 +0100 Subject: Scitex NuBus card ID? In-Reply-To: <2C7E151F-88B9-41BD-A925-98545CA81BB8@typewritten.org> References: <2C7E151F-88B9-41BD-A925-98545CA81BB8@typewritten.org> Message-ID: It might be a hardware RIP (raster image processor) card for an imagesetter but ive only known of PCI types. You plugged this into a mac, loaded the software, connected the imagesetter to scsi and off you go.. sort of a hardware postscript maker!! just a guess roger On 3 Apr 2007, at 04:52, r.stricklin wrote: > I just picked up a Scitex NuBus card at surplus a couple days ago. > Anybody have any guesses what it is? From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 3 13:09:07 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:09:07 -0400 Subject: Scitex NuBus card ID? References: <2C7E151F-88B9-41BD-A925-98545CA81BB8@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <009201c7761b$2c5a04c0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "r.stricklin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:52 PM Subject: Scitex NuBus card ID? > I just picked up a Scitex NuBus card at surplus a couple days ago. > Anybody have any guesses what it is? > > The only connector on the card is the DIN96 NuBus connector. There > are two sets of empty pads for 96-pin connectors (4 rows of 24 pads). > > Major chips include a Cypress CY7C342 EPLD, 40 MHz Motorola XC96002 > DSP, and a custom LSI QFP marked "COLOR-SCITEX". There are a fair > number of RAM devices, too, including MT5C1008 20ns 128Kx8 SRAM in > one group of 8 and one group of 5, MT42C8256 70ns 256Kx8 DRAM in one > group of 8, and four CY7C199 35ns 32Kx8 SRAM chips. > > Silkscreen marks include SCITEX, "S.C.N. II", "ZEN", "PS QUAD", and > "QUAD CS". > > Stickers include "NURIT" and "VS500048/ 5". > > Guesses? The only Scitex card for Macintosh I can even verify exists > is the ResoLUT, which accelerates color space translations. Not sure > though if that's what I have. > > Any ideas? > > ok > bear Can you take a digital picture of the card? You just have the bare card, no driver disks or anything? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 09:28:12 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:28:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-6 questions In-Reply-To: <461217AF0200003700001816@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <461217AF0200003700001816@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: > > 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a > > complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or > > urban legend? Until someone comes up with hard evidence that BCM had one then scrapped it - something like photographic evidence of the PDP-6 in the collection, inclusion in an official inventory (and then not), or otherwise - I discount it as just a story. Nearly everyone I have talked to about it is very insistent about BCM scrapping a PDP-6, but the sources of their information is always someone else with the same unsupported and often inconsistent facts. Basically, the whole story has too many of the red flags that make up a good urban legend. > I don't know about the BCM, but I have a couple of boards from > decomissioned PDP-6's. They were not disassembled out of malice > but out of lack of facility to store them. When was this? -- Will From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Apr 3 13:47:10 2007 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:47:10 -0700 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? Message-ID: <46123EBE.15238.682FBEAC@brian.quarterbyte.com> > On one of the pages linked from the homebrewcpu.org page is a > project that uses surface-mount transistors on what amount to tiny > flipchips. If you're insane enough to try a discrete 8080, go with > that approach. Which link is it? This is homebrew SLT? From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 13:45:31 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:45:31 -0400 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <46120BEF.27929.240F3040@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070402160053.032fbdc0@pop.1and1.com> <4611EBE7.89267E57@cs.ubc.ca> <46120BEF.27929.240F3040@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/3/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2 Apr 2007 at 22:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Just rumour to me, but circa 1980 when I was doing some software > development > > with the spanky new 68000, I was told that the 68000 had been prototyped > > as (literally) a large wall of SSI/MSI logic. > > I believe that was true of the 6809. Somewhere there was published > an interview (BYTE, probably) with a member of the design team where > he mentions this. Well, that article is/was on-line. I saw it one month ago. Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 3 13:48:24 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:48:24 -0500 Subject: PDP-6 questions In-Reply-To: References: <461217AF0200003700001816@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070403134611.067da5e0@mail> At 09:28 AM 4/3/2007, William Donzelli wrote: >>> 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a >>> complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or >>> urban legend? > >Until someone comes up with hard evidence that BCM had one then >scrapped it - something like photographic evidence of the PDP-6 in the >collection, inclusion in an official inventory (and then not), or >otherwise - I discount it as just a story. Nearly everyone I have >talked to about it is very insistent about BCM scrapping a PDP-6, but >the sources of their information is always someone else with the same >unsupported and often inconsistent facts. Basically, the whole story >has too many of the red flags that make up a good urban legend. OK, I bought one of those boards on eBay a few years ago. I sent an email to Gordon Bell to establish provenance. See below. I sent him a picture of the board. - John Subject: RE: PDP-6 board from The Computer Museum, Boston Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:06:59 -0800 Message-ID: <5AE8A38330D3664FAEB010BC1D00283901499120 at RED-MSG-20.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Gordon Bell" To: "John Foust" Cc: "John Toole" , "Len Shustek" , "Kirsten Tashev" , "Dag Spicer" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2006 22:07:16.0050 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A382320:01C62E8E] Status: Yes. I signed the PDP-6, 4 register, bit slice board in the photo. It came from the Computer Museum in Boston where it was sold in their store Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the Boston Computer Museum... Boston was a temporary home when computing passed through New England, but the city itself gave nothing to it. I don't believe the origin can be traced to any machine, since there were no serial numbers, and the modification level would also be too hard to correlate with any time or place. The Museum got a large number of spares and scraps of all kinds from Digital and it was undoubtedly one of those. To my knowledge, the museum has never engaged in gutting machines for components, although I would happily agree that this is a good idea when we have duplicates and crippled or partial artifacts. As a former collector, founder, and board member of the Digital Computer Museum > The Computer Museum >> current Computer History Museum (a name I deplore and that exists only because of the way the Museum left Boston) I have always been a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as many hands as possible, and this includes selling museum artifacts when appropriate. In essence a whole industry of museums and collectors is essential. Incidentally, at one point there was a flame in pre-blog days about the tragedy of the museum selling boards, etc. in which I never engaged. As someone who has contributed about $10 million as well as time, etc. to this endeavor, I can only shake my head... and wonder where those folks were when the museum needed their financial and time support. The lovely ending is that the museum finally has a wonderful home and caring environment with lots of people that support it with love, time, and money. Hope you have or intend to visit it in Mountain View. I trust I have your own financial support and trust you are a member there, too. See www.computerhistory.org g -----Original Message----- From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust at threedee.com] Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:31 AM To: Gordon Bell Subject: PDP-6 board from BCM? Can I confirm the provenance of an item I purchased? It's an S6205D board, signed by "Gordon Bell". Below is a Usenet post that may describe the event at the Boston Computer Museum where it was first sold. Did you sign this board, and do you remember the circumstances? - John Article 1624 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!lead.zk3.dec.com!zk2nws.zko.dec.com!denton.zko.dec.com!amartin From: amartin at denton.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: 21 Feb 1996 13:12:21 GMT Organization: DEC Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4gf5nl$kun at zk2nws.zko.dec.com> References: <1996Feb14.164932.1 at eisner.decus.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: denton.zko.dec.com In article alderson at netcom.com writes: >In article <1996Feb14.164932.1 at eisner.decus.org> stevens_j at eisner.decus.org >(Jack H. Stevens) writes: ... >>How about trying The Computer Museum, in Boston? (also at http://www.tcm.org) > >Bad idea. The Computer Museum has buried any interesting (read "36-bit") >hardware. They were given, for example, the Stanford Artificial Intelligence >Laboratory PDP-6 in 1984, after it was shown at the Fall DECUS Symposia (for >the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing). > >It has never been made available for public view; as far as anyone can tell, >it has disappeared from the face of the earth. I'm hazy on dates, but if the 6 in question was donated before the museum's move from MR2 to Boston, you ain't likely to see it in one piece ever again. They had a garage sale of unwanted items in the MR1 cafeteria one Saturday before the move, and were selling a PDP-6 module-by-module. An S6205K "Arithmetic Registers" module (1-bit slice of AR/MQ/MB/) went for $7, autographed by Gordon Bell. I asked him whether read-in mode was implemented as a diode array encoding instructions. He said no, and kindly recommended the 6205 as a particularly central module to have, instead. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin at TLE.ENet.DEC.Com gbellboard.jpg gbellboard.jpg From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 3 14:07:13 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:07:13 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] TK50 tapes Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: 3 Apr 2007 10:38:37 -0700 Groups: comp.sys.dec From: "Sam Hoblit" Org: http://groups.google.com Subject: TK50 tapes Id: <1175621917.544692.78610 at n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> ======== In the process of getting rid of some old equipment I was able to save back a slew of TK50 tapes (~120). Before throwing them out, I thought I'd offer them here in case anyone is interested. Local pickup on Long Island. I could also bring them into NYC, if necessary. Let me know in the next couple weeks if you would like them, otherwise into the dumpster they go. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Apr 3 13:52:56 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:52:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-6 questions Message-ID: <46126A480200003700001951@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Will wrote: > Tim wrote: >> I don't know about the BCM, but I have a couple of boards from >> decomissioned PDP-6's. They were not disassembled out of malice >> but out of lack of facility to store them. > When was this? I got the boards circa 1995. The guy who gave them to me related that the PDP-6 had been decommisioned circa early 80's (replaced with a FOONLY - that ought to narrow it down for you!), and he was keeping KS10's and Massbus disk and tapes drive running in his house through most of the 90's :-). I'm not sure why I'm making any attempt at obfuscating this guy's identity, I gave away so many clues above that it's obvious who it is by now! Maybe my obfuscation is a lame attempt at stopping the "you tore up a PDP-6" blame game. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 3 14:14:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:14:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-6 questions Message-ID: <4612A78B.7070000@bitsavers.org> 1) Are there any complete PDP-6s anywhere at all? There are none known to exist 2) Does the Computer History Museum in Mountain View have any PDP-6 artifacts? CHM has the Fast Memory chassis from the Stanford PDP-6 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or urban legend? Ken Sumerall and I worked on putting this rumor to bed about six months ago. There are no records of BCM ever receiving the PDP-6 from Stanford. As best as we were able to determine, the Stanford PDP-6 that was shown at DECUS for the 10th anniversary of the 36 bit product line was sent somewhere within DEC, it was NEVER sent to BCM. When Compaq donated their museum holdings to the Computer Museum History Center the Fast Memory chassis was sent. There is no evidence of any other part of the system (or a rumored additional PDP-1) surviving. It is unknown what happened to the rest of the PDP-6. We do know that we don't have it. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 3 15:51:03 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:51:03 -0700 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4F4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: Just rumour to me, but circa 1980 when I was doing some software development with the spanky new 68000, I was told that the 68000 had been prototyped as (literally) a large wall of SSI/MSI logic. Billy responds: That was pretty much the modus operandi on early MSI/LSI chips. All of the early ASIC's I worked with were bread boarded from SSI or even single gate ICs. The vendors would provide design kits with lots of these little chips. Most of them were 4 or 8 pins; a few were 14 or 16 pins. You can still buy them today to patch bugs on LSI until you can roll the metal. First ones were TTL, then they moved to CMOS. I even remember one ASIC that we used ECL gates on. This was in the early 80's. Gradually, the design software caught up and you could simulate your design on a computer. It's hard to remember that in the days before PCs, many of tools we take for granted, didn't exist. For example, when CDC was designing the Star series and the ETA machines, the early design automation consisted of huge programs to lay out the logic. The designer input the logic equations on decks of cards. I remember seeing some of these early programs taking 20-40 hours to run, with card decks of thousands of cards. I think I have a few of these early proto boards left. They would make a great display on the progress in the industry. We used a 12" by 24" size and interconnected them with ribbon cable. I never saw a wall mounted unit. But we had many that covered a standard workbench top and they later fit into a 24 pin package. Billy From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 3 21:08:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) Message-ID: Last year Woodelf posted a question wondering if a Z-machine could be ported to the pdp8. Woodelf, did you get anywhere with that? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Apr 3 21:56:09 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:56:09 -0400 Subject: PDP-6 questions References: <461217AF0200003700001816@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <002b01c77664$ccf78850$0100a8c0@screamer> I have parts of a PDP-6 to PDP-10 interface prototype that came from local salvage during the BCM era. I am also aware of other hardware that went to BCM and died there. Personally I don't discount this story at all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:28 AM Subject: Re: PDP-6 questions >> > 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer Museum receiving a >> > complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell as gifts truth or >> > urban legend? > > Until someone comes up with hard evidence that BCM had one then > scrapped it - something like photographic evidence of the PDP-6 in the > collection, inclusion in an official inventory (and then not), or > otherwise - I discount it as just a story. Nearly everyone I have > talked to about it is very insistent about BCM scrapping a PDP-6, but > the sources of their information is always someone else with the same > unsupported and often inconsistent facts. Basically, the whole story > has too many of the red flags that make up a good urban legend. > >> I don't know about the BCM, but I have a couple of boards from >> decomissioned PDP-6's. They were not disassembled out of malice >> but out of lack of facility to store them. > > When was this? > > -- > Will > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Apr 3 23:28:35 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-6 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <191543.91865.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > > 3) Are the stories about the Boston Computer > Museum receiving a > > > complete PDP-6 and then chopping it up to sell > as gifts truth or > > > urban legend? > > Until someone comes up with hard evidence that BCM > had one then > scrapped it - something like photographic evidence > of the PDP-6 in the > collection, inclusion in an official inventory (and > then not), or > otherwise - I discount it as just a story. I have in my possession a PDP-6 module purchased by myself at the BCM museum store in 1989. It may have come from spares rather than being stripped from a machine in the collection, but it was a very large double-height, double-width system module of the type that I believe was only used on the PDP-6, and it was described as a PDP-6 board when I bought it. I find it highly suspicious that Philco and CDC 6600-style modules were also on sale. I have several modules purchased at the same time that look identical to those in the Philco on display now at CHM, formerly at BCM. The CHM's machine is conspicuously missing large numbers of modules, as in an entire backplane stripped clean. Not that this proves anything, but I left after that visit to BCM in 1989 with the distinct impression that machines from the collection had been stripped for souvenirs. The BCM seemed to be much more concerned with education, including with respect to contemporary machines at the time, rather than historical preservation and scholarship. Despite this, Gwen was there when I visited, and, although I had not met her previously, she saw me and apparently detected that I was not all that interested in the "kiddie stuff" and took me into the back storage area and showed me the "good stuff". She certainly appreciated the historical machines, and was like an excited kid showing it off. It is hard to imagine machines being stripped or scrapped on her watch. --Bill From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 4 01:36:38 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 23:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <46123EBE.15238.682FBEAC@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <46123EBE.15238.682FBEAC@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Brian Knittel wrote: > > On one of the pages linked from the homebrewcpu.org page is a > > project that uses surface-mount transistors on what amount to tiny > > flipchips. If you're insane enough to try a discrete 8080, go with > > that approach. > > Which link is it? > > This is homebrew SLT? I thought it was on his list of links. I'll suggest that he add it. http://people.freenet.de/dieter.02/mt15.htm -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 4 06:20:53 2007 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:20:53 -0400 Subject: Check out this gallery of classic comp pictures Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1082@cpexchange.olf.com> There are some really neat stuff here dating back to 50's to the late 80's. http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/ Cheers, Ram From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 09:45:55 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:45:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-6 questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070403134611.067da5e0@mail> References: <461217AF0200003700001816@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070403134611.067da5e0@mail> Message-ID: > OK, I bought one of those boards on eBay a few years ago. > I sent an email to Gordon Bell to establish provenance. > See below. I sent him a picture of the board. I do not dispute TCM selling boards. Gordon Bell wrote: > I don't believe the origin can be traced to any machine, since there were no serial numbers, and the modification level would also be too hard to correlate with any time or place. > The Museum got a large number of spares and scraps of all kinds from Digital and it was undoubtedly one of those. This does nothing to prove that TCM ever had a PDP-6. Someone else wrote: > >Bad idea. The Computer Museum has buried any interesting (read "36-bit") > >hardware. They were given, for example, the Stanford Artificial Intelligence > >Laboratory PDP-6 in 1984, after it was shown at the Fall DECUS Symposia (for > >the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing). And: > I'm hazy on dates, but if the 6 in question was donated before the museum's > move from MR2 to Boston, you ain't likely to see it in one piece ever again. > They had a garage sale of unwanted items in the MR1 cafeteria one Saturday > before the move, and were selling a PDP-6 module-by-module. An S6205K > "Arithmetic Registers" module (1-bit slice of AR/MQ/MB/) went > for $7, autographed by Gordon Bell. These statements also do not prove TCM ever had a PDP-6. Verbal testimony from a witness is actually very weak evidence, as any lawyer knows, especially if not done under oath and from so long ago ("I'm hazy on dates"). Human memory is often corrupted by age, emotion, similar events, etc.. Anyway, the last paragraph seems to indicate that a PDP-6 (or parts of one) never even made it to TCM. If that is the case, people have been bad mouthing TCM for many years when they shouldn't have. If DEC scrapped a PDP-6 - the whole story changes, as well as the whole moral landscape of the situation. None of this changes my opinion. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 09:59:44 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:59:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-6 questions In-Reply-To: <191543.91865.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <191543.91865.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have in my possession a PDP-6 module purchased by > myself at the BCM museum store in 1989. It may have > come from spares rather than being stripped from a > machine in the collection, but it was a very large > double-height, double-width system module of the type > that I believe was only used on the PDP-6, and it was > described as a PDP-6 board when I bought it. I do not dispute TCM selling modules and things. What I dispute is where they came from. I have worked with enough technical museums to know that there is a constant stream of parts and things coming thru the front door. Engineers, radiomen, soldiers, sailors, whomever (or more likely these days, the widows or children of these) will find a bunch of things during a cleanup of the basement or closet, and send them to the museums as-is. After the museums pick out the good things and add them to the collections, the piles are generally sold or traded off, often in garage sale or gift store settings. It seems very likely to me that TCM often received boxes of boards and things from DEC engineers, or DEC scrap as has been mentioned, and these were the items that were sold. -- Will From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Apr 4 12:11:22 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 19:11:22 +0200 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4F4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4F4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4613DC3A.7060000@bluewin.ch> > > Billy responds: > > That was pretty much the modus operandi on early MSI/LSI chips. All of the > early ASIC's I worked with were bread boarded from SSI or even single gate > ICs. The vendors would provide design kits with lots of these little chips. > Most of them were 4 or 8 pins; a few were 14 or 16 pins. You can still buy > them today to patch bugs on LSI until you can roll the metal. First ones > were TTL, then they moved to CMOS. I even remember one ASIC that we used > ECL gates on. > I still have ca. 4000 TO-5 cans that contain two bipolar transistors each, nothing else . These were intended for IC prototyping. Now what was the 8080`s transistor count again ?... Today patching IC's is done with the spare gates that are distributed along the regular logic. wrt to homebuilding TTL based cpu's : the fun part is the design. The actual building takes a lot of dedication. I would advice against building a 32 bit cpu as a first project. Jos From alves at spawar.navy.mil Wed Apr 4 13:08:29 2007 From: alves at spawar.navy.mil (Allan Alves) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:08:29 -0700 Subject: GRiD 1537e in the UK Message-ID: Doug Yowza Doug, In searching information regarding the GRiD 1537E, I located your 10 April 1998 Internet "message" wherein you stated you ".can give specs and pin-outs to anybody that would like to get it." Please e-mail that data for 1537E to me at your earliest convenience. Thank you very much. Allan Alves ORI Services Corp. Tel: (619) 524-3786 e-mail: alves at spawar.navy.mil FAX: (619) 524-2871 From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 13:39:44 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <200704041701.l34H0uP5082028@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <466436.19392.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I believe that was true of the 6809. Somewhere there was published > > an interview (BYTE, probably) with a member of the design team where > > he mentions this. > > Well, that article is/was on-line. I saw it one month ago. http://tlindner.macmess.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/byte_6809_articles.pdf I remember reading the original article in Byte. I learned assembler on the 6800 via the _excellent_ Heathkit ET-3400 course and trainer and loved the 6800's simple, clear architecture and instruction set. The '09 was the ultimate evolution of a great CPU. William ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 4 14:10:55 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:10:55 -0500 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on Message-ID: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly on top of a RL02 in an H960??? I went back to look at the "RL02 faults when RX02 is on" problem. I had left the rear top cover of the RL02 up in the service position (with the drive extended from the rack). I retested without touching anything. Sure enough, the problem was "gone". The RL02 wouldn't fault no matter what. So I put that rear top cover back down and screwed in the 4 screws, then pushed the RL02 back into the rack and voila - the problem reoccured. The RL02 will fault just after spinup IF the RX02 (which is mounted directly above it) is powered on. Aha... I was now thinking a cable problem! I figured pushing the RL02 in and out of the rack seemed to be the causative factor, bending a cable just right or something. So I pulled the RL02 fully out front on the rails, and the problem went away (with the RX02 turned on just above it, but back in the rack). So with this configuration I figured that the problem occured when I pushed the RL02 back into the rack as it must jiggle some cables. I decided to try THIS... I extend the RL02 out the front and power up everything, including the RX02. The RL02 spins up just fine, no fault. Once it is ready... I start pushing the RL02 back in the rack, very slowly. After going back about 7 or 8 inches, the ready light starts to flash. I pull the drive outwards 1/2 inch and the ready light stops flashing. Push the RL02 in 1/2 inch and it starts flashing again. If I push the RL02 in another 2 or 3 inches after the ready light starts flashing, the drive faults. This is not a freak occurance, it is completely reproduceable. This makes me think bad cables. However, if I go and look in back at the cables when the drive is right at the point the ready light starts to flash, there are no cables being moved even slightly. I can move the RL02 cables and RX02 cables by hand, the drive doesn't fault. What is even MORE wierd... if I move the RL02 drive inward until the ready light starts to flash, then unplug power to the RX02 (the power cable for the RX02 is around the front, so I can unplug it without disturbing any cables at all)... the RL02 ready light stops flashing. This would make me think it is NOT cables, and it seems to be proxmity of the top of the RL02 drive to the bottom of the RX02 drive. I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of a reason not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 4 14:25:56 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:25:56 -0500 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <003c01c776ef$14232f60$6700a8c0@BILLING> And another test.... If the RL02 is fully extended and stationary, I can recreate the behaviour by slowly extending the RX02 as well. When the rx02 gets extended to a certain point just above the RL02 the RL02 ready light will start flashing (and it actually flashes faster the more the RX02 is moved out, flashes slower if you inch the RX02 back)... and if you keep moving the RX02 out the RL02 will fault. This sure seems like some kinda RFI or something :\ Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 4 14:22:32 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:22:32 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200704041522.32133.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 15:10, Jay West wrote: > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly > on top of a RL02 in an H960??? > I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of a > reason not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? The RL02 top is plastic, so there's minimal if any RF/EMI shielding between whatever is above the drive, and the electronics inside. I would try placing a grounded piece of sheet metal in between them, as an RF/EMI shield, and see if that helps. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 4 14:27:49 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:27:49 +0100 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 14:10 -0500, Jay West wrote: > I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of a reason > not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? It does seem odd, but maybe the motor in the RX02 is a bit hashy? I know that my PDP-11/73 (http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net) has the RX02 at the top of the cabinet, then the OEM processor box, then the RL02s below. I assumed it was for weight... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 4 14:30:19 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:30:19 +0100 Subject: GRiD 1537e in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1175715019.31172.8.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 11:08 -0700, Allan Alves wrote: > Doug Yowza > > > Doug, > > In searching information regarding the GRiD 1537E, I located your 10 April 1998 Internet "message" wherein you stated > you ".can give specs and pin-outs to anybody that would like to get it." Please e-mail that data for 1537E to me at > your earliest convenience. > > Thank you very much. Nearly nine years ago. What are the chances...? Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 14:31:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:31:54 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, Jay West wrote: > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly on top > of a RL02 in an H960??? I do not know of one - IIRC, we used to do that often, 20 years ago, but it's entirely possible that it's an issue in your case. Do you have another set of drives to experiement with? Perhaps it's not _all_ RX02 and RL02 drives, just the particular ones you have right there. Can you rig up some sort of RFI shield and slide it between the drives when you are showing the fault? What about if you set the RL02 on the ground, then raise and lower the RX02? Obviously, there'd be a risk of cable flextion, potentially tainting your experiment, but if, as you describe, front-to-back movement causes the problem to reliably appear and disappear, cable flexion may not be your problem. One thing to check is the RL02 cable itself. I've seen a lot of flex-damaged cables over the years. If you have a different drive cable, I guess I'd probably try replacing that first and attempting to reproduce your now-documented behavior. Broken-down sheilding might even be contributing to your problem. Good luck with your sleuthing. -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 4 14:34:50 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:34:50 +0100 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <003c01c776ef$14232f60$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <003c01c776ef$14232f60$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1175715290.31172.12.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 14:25 -0500, Jay West wrote: > And another test.... > > If the RL02 is fully extended and stationary, I can recreate the behaviour > by slowly extending the RX02 as well. When the rx02 gets extended to a > certain point just above the RL02 the RL02 ready light will start flashing > (and it actually flashes faster the more the RX02 is moved out, flashes > slower if you inch the RX02 back)... and if you keep moving the RX02 out the > RL02 will fault. > > This sure seems like some kinda RFI or something :\ Stop, stop! You're making me want to pull my PDP-11 rack to bits and try it... I will, if you think it will help you track your problems down. I still smell a dodgy supressor or worn motor though. Gordon From rickb at bensene.com Wed Apr 4 14:52:45 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:52:45 -0700 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Jay wrote: > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 > directly on top of a RL02 in an H960??? Forgive the delay in writing about this. I had the EXACT same problem with RXO2 mounted on top of an RL02 drive on y PDP 11/34A. At the time, my suspicion was that the gigantic transformer in the power supply of the RX02 was generating some kind of magnetic field tha was disturbing the RL02. I mounted the RX02 underneat the RL02, andh never had any problems since. Rick Bensene The Old Calculaor Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 4 15:04:24 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:04:24 +0100 Subject: GRiD 1537e in the UK In-Reply-To: <1175715019.31172.8.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 4/4/07 20:30, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 11:08 -0700, Allan Alves wrote: >> Doug Yowza >> >> >> Doug, >> >> In searching information regarding the GRiD 1537E, I located your 10 April >> 1998 Internet "message" wherein you stated >> you ".can give specs and pin-outs to anybody that would like to get it." >> Please e-mail that data for 1537E to me at >> your earliest convenience. >> >> Thank you very much. > > Nearly nine years ago. What are the chances...? I thought that but didn't like to say! If someone asked me what I was doing 9 years ago I'd be able to tell them, but only because I don't delete mails :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 4 16:35:43 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:35:43 -0600 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > Last year Woodelf posted a question wondering if a Z-machine could be > ported to the pdp8. Woodelf, did you get anywhere with that? The problem with a Z-Machine that memory, 32K bytes just covers the game data. About 10k+ for the Z-machine and 8k+ for a OS. The PDP-8 just does not have the memory. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 4 15:49:53 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 04, 2007 03:35:43 PM Message-ID: <200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> > David Griffith wrote: > > Last year Woodelf posted a question wondering if a Z-machine could be > > ported to the pdp8. Woodelf, did you get anywhere with that? > > The problem with a Z-Machine that memory, 32K bytes just covers the game > data. About 10k+ for the Z-machine and 8k+ for a OS. The PDP-8 just > does not have the memory. What about on an -8/a? I believe I've got a new 128k board for an -8/a, I just don't have an -8/a. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 4 17:09:05 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:09:05 -0600 Subject: homebrewed 32-bit cpu? In-Reply-To: <4613DC3A.7060000@bluewin.ch> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4F4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4613DC3A.7060000@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46142201.2060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > wrt to homebuilding TTL based cpu's : the fun part is the design. The > actual building takes a lot of dedication. I would advice against > building a 32 bit cpu as a first project. Bit slice logic tends to make life simple. > > Jos From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 16:12:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:12:13 -0400 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, woodelf wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > Last year Woodelf posted a question wondering if a Z-machine could be > > ported to the pdp8. Woodelf, did you get anywhere with that? > > The problem with a Z-Machine that memory, 32K bytes just covers the game > data. About 10k+ for the Z-machine and 8k+ for a OS. The PDP-8 just > does not have the memory. When you say "game data", do you mean the impure area? If so, I'd agree for v5 games, but it's substantially less for v3 games - i.e., the ones that shipped for the Apple II and the TRS-80 and the C-64, etc. The larger of the home 8-bitters could run some v5 games, but I think 32K was the cutoff - machines that had 32K or less were never asked to run v5 games. Two years ago, I assisted Mike Riley, the author of ElfOS for the 1802, with a new from-scratch Z-machine. The basic platform was 1802 CPU, 32K of RAM, an IDE interface, and a few K of ROM for some OS toolbox routines. The SpareTimeGizmos Elf2000 conforms to that hardware requirements list, as does a machine built by Mike Riley himself. We were able to get the RAM-resident portion of the OS, the interpreter, and the impure area for a v3 game into that 32K with about, IIRC, 1.5K left over to load pure (read-only) game file data into. This lead to a lot of disk activity since there weren't enough pages to keep the parser resident, but part of that difficulty is that the page size of 512 bytes is double the page size of, say, a C-64 floppy, so when you only need one string or one subroutine from the far end of the game, you end up flushing 512 bytes to grab the enw stuff, and if it was a block with parser code, re-fetching that part of the parser, back and forth. It hasn't been effectively possible to write games in Inform for v3 for several revisions of the Inform library, but I think the compiler can still emit v3 game files. It limits what one can run, but does not mean that there are absolutely no files to use (or that it's imposible to generate test game files to exercise parts of a z-machine under test). The output from ScottFree is v3 compatible, and doesn't use the libraries at all - the parser is so simple that ScottFree just tacks it onto the reparsed Scott Adams egine statements when it builds a game. Having looked at the possibility of a 12-bit Z-Machine in the past, I think it's tough, largely because the Z-Machine architecture is optimized for an 8-bit (or 16-bit) host. Keeping track of what your current virtual address is going to require a 24-bit pointer on the PDP-8, even though only 18 bits or so of the pointer is ever going to get populated. The integer math is all 16-bits, etc. Not a huge amount of work on a 6502 or a Z-80, but plenty of extra humping for a 12-bitter. I'm not saying that makes it impossible, but it does make it more difficult. I'd love to see a 12-bit Z-machine interpreter, but I just haven't had the time to work on it over the years. Instead, I've studied game internals and written a few games from scratch in Inform. Still... it'd be fun to play Zork I on the PDP-8, just for the staggering geek potential. -ethan From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Apr 4 16:14:24 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:14:24 -0400 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Well, there's always virtual memory. Back when I was in college we had a PDP-12 and I *really* wanted an 11 to play with (things haven't changed much!). So, I wrote a PDP-11 simulator that ran on the 8. It used disk space on an RK01 hard drive for virtual memory and could simulate a PDP-11 with up to 32k of memory on a PDP-8 with only 8k. Of course, it wasn't very fast but it did run ODT-11 (sort of). I still have a listing of it. Some day I'll try typing it in to see if it will work on the SBC6120 system that I'm building. On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:35 PM, woodelf wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> Last year Woodelf posted a question wondering if a Z-machine could be >> ported to the pdp8. Woodelf, did you get anywhere with that? > > The problem with a Z-Machine that memory, 32K bytes just covers the > game > data. About 10k+ for the Z-machine and 8k+ for a OS. The PDP-8 just > does not have the memory. > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 16:27:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:27:52 -0400 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What about on an -8/a? I believe I've got a new 128k board for an -8/a, I > just don't have an -8/a. The you also need a KT8A to use the MSC8-DJ 128K memory card (or, IIRC 4 x 32K MSC8-AB boards). They are somewhat rare. For the widest audience, I'd recommend a v3-compatible 12-bit Z-Machine for 32K, and then, perhaps, tackle the v5 problem, perhaps on a 128K -8/a. For the record, I do have a KT8A and a 128K board (and the -8/a ;-), but back when I was using them all on a daily basis, the best use I had for the extra memory was a RAM disk. There just wasn't that much software written to take advantage of the extra memory, so conversely, not much was sold because it was difficult to find something to use it. Couple that with the fact that the 128K expansion came late in the PDP-8/a lifecycle, and it's not difficult to see why they aren't common. I've never seen those particular add-in boards in a machine in the wild. I bought mine from DEC resellers. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 4 16:28:12 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > David Griffith wrote: > > > Last year Woodelf posted a question wondering if a Z-machine could be > > > ported to the pdp8. Woodelf, did you get anywhere with that? > > > > The problem with a Z-Machine that memory, 32K bytes just covers the game > > data. About 10k+ for the Z-machine and 8k+ for a OS. The PDP-8 just > > does not have the memory. > > What about on an -8/a? I believe I've got a new 128k board for an -8/a, I > just don't have an -8/a. One of the big things that allowed the Z-machine to run on machines of limited memory was its virtual memory functionality. Most modern implementations don't bother with this anymore. What I'm really after is getting a V8 (V5 would be acceptable) Z-machine working on my SBC6120. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 4 16:26:06 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:26:06 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <461417EE.2010204@atarimuseum.com> Really sounds like something in the RX02 power supply is freaking out the drive heads in the RL02 Curt Jay West wrote: > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly > on top of a RL02 in an H960??? > > I went back to look at the "RL02 faults when RX02 is on" problem. I > had left the rear top cover of the RL02 up in the service position > (with the drive extended from the rack). I retested without touching > anything. Sure enough, the problem was "gone". The RL02 wouldn't fault > no matter what. So I put that rear top cover back down and screwed in > the 4 screws, then pushed the RL02 back into the rack and voila - the > problem reoccured. The RL02 will fault just after spinup IF the RX02 > (which is mounted directly above it) is powered on. Aha... I was now > thinking a cable problem! I figured pushing the RL02 in and out of the > rack seemed to be the causative factor, bending a cable just right or > something. > > So I pulled the RL02 fully out front on the rails, and the problem > went away (with the RX02 turned on just above it, but back in the > rack). So with this configuration I figured that the problem occured > when I pushed the RL02 back into the rack as it must jiggle some > cables. I decided to try THIS... > > I extend the RL02 out the front and power up everything, including the > RX02. The RL02 spins up just fine, no fault. Once it is ready... I > start pushing the RL02 back in the rack, very slowly. After going back > about 7 or 8 inches, the ready light starts to flash. I pull the drive > outwards 1/2 inch and the ready light stops flashing. Push the RL02 in > 1/2 inch and it starts flashing again. If I push the RL02 in another 2 > or 3 inches after the ready light starts flashing, the drive faults. > This is not a freak occurance, it is completely reproduceable. This > makes me think bad cables. > > However, if I go and look in back at the cables when the drive is > right at the point the ready light starts to flash, there are no > cables being moved even slightly. I can move the RL02 cables and RX02 > cables by hand, the drive doesn't fault. What is even MORE wierd... if > I move the RL02 drive inward until the ready light starts to flash, > then unplug power to the RX02 (the power cable for the RX02 is around > the front, so I can unplug it without disturbing any cables at all)... > the RL02 ready light stops flashing. This would make me think it is > NOT cables, and it seems to be proxmity of the top of the RL02 drive > to the bottom of the RX02 drive. > > I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of a > reason not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? > > Jay > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 16:27:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:27:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Apr 4, 7 02:10:55 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly on top > of a RL02 in an H960??? I've not heard of one, but then again, I've never actually tried that mounting arrangement. I know DEC stated that certain peripherals should have their own racks, I always figured this was, in part, to sell more cabinets, but I assume there might have been some interference issues as well > > I went back to look at the "RL02 faults when RX02 is on" problem. I had left > the rear top cover of the RL02 up in the service position (with the drive > extended from the rack). I retested without touching anything. Sure enough, > the problem was "gone". The RL02 wouldn't fault no matter what. So I put > that rear top cover back down and screwed in the 4 screws, then pushed the > RL02 back into the rack and voila - the problem reoccured. The RL02 will > fault just after spinup IF the RX02 (which is mounted directly above it) is > powered on. Aha... I was now thinking a cable problem! I figured pushing the > RL02 in and out of the rack seemed to be the causative factor, bending a > cable just right or something. The spindle motor in each drive of the RC02 is a fairly crude induction motor. I could well believe it has enough stray field to cause interferende (It's not that well shielded). Maybe that's being picked up by the RL's head and upsetting the servo. Here's an idea. Take the fan plenum off the back of the RC02 (4 screws, IIRC, and uplug the fan calbe). Then unplug the 3 pin connector on the back of each drive (115V AC to the spindle motor). Try the system now. Obviously the RC02 can't run (the spindles won't be turning), but if there are no disks in the drives the system can't realise this. Have the RC02 powered up (so its PSU is running, and all the logic is powered) and see if the RL behaves now. If so, it pretty much confirms it's interference from the RC02's spindle motors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 16:33:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:33:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Apr 4, 7 12:52:45 pm Message-ID: > Forgive the delay in writing about this. I had the EXACT same problem > with RXO2 mounted on top of an RL02 drive on y PDP 11/34A. At the time, > my suspicion was that the gigantic transformer in the power supply of That's a ferroresonat transformer IIRC (why, I have no idea, there are conventioal electronic regulator circuits in the PSU too). There could be considerable stray field from that. I still suspect the spindle motors of the RC02 first, but I've got no real evidence for that. Jay, can you rearrange the items in your rack to move the RX02 and RL02 apart? -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 4 16:53:29 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:53:29 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on Message-ID: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on >> >> Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly on top >> of a RL02 in an H960??? You have to be kidding me. I have that arrangement and it's solid. The RX02 bottom is well shielded as it the top of the RL02 logic. > >I've not heard of one, but then again, I've never actually tried that >mounting arrangement. I know DEC stated that certain peripherals should >have their own racks, I always figured this was, in part, to sell more >cabinets, but I assume there might have been some interference issues as well Most of that was for cooling and accessability for service. >> I went back to look at the "RL02 faults when RX02 is on" problem. I had left >> the rear top cover of the RL02 up in the service position (with the drive >> extended from the rack). I retested without touching anything. Sure enough, >> the problem was "gone". The RL02 wouldn't fault no matter what. So I put >> that rear top cover back down and screwed in the 4 screws, then pushed the >> RL02 back into the rack and voila - the problem reoccured. The RL02 will >> fault just after spinup IF the RX02 (which is mounted directly above it) is >> powered on. Aha... I was now thinking a cable problem! I figured pushing the >> RL02 in and out of the rack seemed to be the causative factor, bending a >> cable just right or something. > >The spindle motor in each drive of the RC02 is a fairly crude induction >motor. I could well believe it has enough stray field to cause >interferende (It's not that well shielded). Maybe that's being picked up >by the RL's head and upsetting the servo. > >Here's an idea. Take the fan plenum off the back of the RC02 (4 screws, >IIRC, and uplug the fan calbe). Then unplug the 3 pin connector on the >back of each drive (115V AC to the spindle motor). Try the system now. >Obviously the RC02 can't run (the spindles won't be turning), but if >there are no disks in the drives the system can't realise this. Have the >RC02 powered up (so its PSU is running, and all the logic is powered) and >see if the RL behaves now. If so, it pretty much confirms it's >interference from the RC02's spindle motors. > >-tony I've been doing it for years and it works for me. Allison From awmolloy at landsnail.com Wed Apr 4 22:50:28 2007 From: awmolloy at landsnail.com (Andrew Molloy) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II gathering in July - registration open for KansasFest Message-ID: <572474.43769.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hope this is okay to post to the list. If you like Apple II computers, please join us for KansasFest this July! KANSASFEST 2007 REGISTRATION NOW OPEN KANSAS CITY, MO -- March 30, 2007: KansasFest -- the annual Apple II expo of sessions, contests, great stories, tips and tricks, fun and games, and things that "just can't be done on an Apple II" -- is now open for registration. KFest 2007 will be held at Rockhurst University in Kansas City, Missouri, July 17 - 22. Five nights, twelve meals, and countless sessions, contests, great stories, tips and tricks, fun and games, and things that "just can't be done on an Apple II" costs only $340 for a double room or $410 for a single. To register, download and complete the PDF form at http://www.KFest.org/ and follow its instructions to return it via mail, email, or fax. Wednesday's lunch (the annual Kookout) is now included in the price of the event. Also, volunteers who present sessions will now receive an on-site rebate: $15 for presenting a half-hour session, and $25 for a full hour. In addition to official shirts, sold as always at the event, there's also a KansasFest online store, where you can buy additional shirts, hats, mugs, and more. You can find it at http://www.cafepress.com/ kansasfest/ David Szetela, founding editor of Nibble Magazine and a former manager at Apple Computer, will be KansasFest 2007's keynote speaker. Szetela is now the founder, president, and CEO of Clix Marketing, an Internet marketing agency. An experienced speaker, Mr. Szetela promises a fascinating inside perspective on Apple and Nibble for attendees of KansasFest. "It's amazing and gratifying to me that the flame of passion for the Apple II we shared nearly 30 years ago still burns brightly," says Mr. Szetela. "I'm looking forward to attending KansasFest 2007 and re- connecting with old friends, reminiscing about Apple II milestones, and maybe sharing some little-known insider anecdotes." Come join the 30th anniversary celebration of the Apple II at KansasFest, the world's only annual conference dedicated to the first personal computer. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 4 17:49:50 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:49:50 -0600 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46142B8E.3030000@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > When you say "game data", do you mean the impure area? If so, I'd > agree for v5 games, but it's substantially less for v3 games - i.e., > the ones that shipped for the Apple II and the TRS-80 and the C-64, > etc. The larger of the home 8-bitters could run some v5 games, but I > think 32K was the cutoff - machines that had 32K or less were never > asked to run v5 games. > -ethan Also a Z-machine requires a termial rather than a TTY. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 4 20:40:50 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (ClassicCmp) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 02:40:50 +0100 Subject: AS/400 available for free [UK only] (was: Re: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use) References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00a201c77723$c9476ad0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> > AS/400's are regularly available here in the Bay Area >(California). Prices for smaller systems range from $100 >to $250.... >....I've seen many with disk drives (very important for >AS/400's as they use a AS/400 specific drives).... If anyone within striking distance of Birmingham (UK) wants an AS/400 with those all important hard drives, I've got one which you can have for the cost of coming over and taking it away (strictly pick-up only, it's far too heavy to post). I believe it's a model 9404, with an expansion cabinet - each cabinet is similar in size to a DEC BA123 cabinet, IE not that big.... And that's all I know about it, I've never even plugged it in! Contact me off list if interested. Thanks. TTFN - Pete. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 4 17:01:34 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, David Betz wrote: > Well, there's always virtual memory. Back when I was in college we > had a PDP-12 and I *really* wanted an 11 to play with (things haven't > changed much!). So, I wrote a PDP-11 simulator that ran on the 8. It > used disk space on an RK01 hard drive for virtual memory and could > simulate a PDP-11 with up to 32k of memory on a PDP-8 with only 8k. > Of course, it wasn't very fast but it did run ODT-11 (sort of). I > still have a listing of it. Some day I'll try typing it in to see if > it will work on the SBC6120 system that I'm building. This sounds like it could be adapted for my purposes. Some things I'd want to address: 1) Can you specify which pages to swap? For the Z-machine, one would want to swap the game data first, then the interpreter (if at all). 2) Perhaps this emulator could be stripped down to to run one particular program: Frotz compiled for pdp11. 3) Can the emulator be wrapped up with the only binary it will run? The idea is to have a single Frotz binary for pdp8 to simplify distribution. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Apr 4 19:52:12 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 19:52:12 -0500 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <000001c7771c$a613bed0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> On some RL02 cables, the drive WILL FAULT if your ground is not secured. I had one cable (traded it) that did not do this, and am currently using a cable that does do this. The drive has zero problems with the ground attached but will fault immediately if I remove it. In short, be sure your ground wire/eye is still attached to the card end of the cable, and that it is secured to the chassis ground (there is a lug for this on the back of my BA11-SA) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:28 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on > > On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 14:10 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > > I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of a > > reason not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? > > It does seem odd, but maybe the motor in the RX02 is a bit hashy? > > I know that my PDP-11/73 (http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net) has the > RX02 at the top of the cabinet, then the OEM processor box, > then the RL02s below. I assumed it was for weight... > > Gordon > > From ingrammp at earthlink.net Wed Apr 4 21:42:29 2007 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 19:42:29 -0700 Subject: NextStep 3.3 dmesg problem Message-ID: <15E15501-FABC-4552-B430-76FA4C87C27E@earthlink.net> I have a minor NextStep 3.3 problem... on an otherwise perfectly working system, the command /usr/etc/ dmesg returns # dmesg Apr 4 19:32 Can't get kernel namelist which seems to imply to me, that I have some permission hosed someplace, but I haven't been able to figure it out. In / I have mach -> $BOOTFILE ( but I don't know what $BOOTFILE is supposed to be ! ) odmach is permission 444 sdmach is permission 444 ( and same size as odmach... 836616 bytes ) I tried changing permissions on /dev/kmem... no effect.... right now it's crw-r----- Any Next folks have any ideas ?? Does dmesg work on your machine ?? thanks Mike From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 4 17:17:45 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:17:45 +0200 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. Message-ID: <20070405001745.2ef80dad@SirToby.dinner41.local> Hi. Free for local pickup in Kaiserslautern Germany: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive, Pertec interface, 1600 and 6250 bpi. Excellent condition, 19" rack rails included. Do not even think of shipping. Too big, way too heavy. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 4 20:51:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:51:32 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <89C7E692-D4A8-4E07-AFF9-59EC3BD6875F@neurotica.com> On Apr 4, 2007, at 3:27 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of >> a reason >> not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? > > It does seem odd, but maybe the motor in the RX02 is a bit hashy? > > I know that my PDP-11/73 (http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net) has the RX02 at > the top of the cabinet, then the OEM processor box, then the RL02s > below. I assumed it was for weight... As an aside...that's a damn nice looking system; who made the processor box? I've used a lot of third-party DECish stuff, and I've never seen one quite like that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 4 17:06:50 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:06:50 -0700 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca><200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <008401c77705$8c4b10a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 4/4/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> What about on an -8/a? I believe I've got a new 128k board for an -8/a, >> I >> just don't have an -8/a. > > The you also need a KT8A to use the MSC8-DJ 128K memory card (or, IIRC > 4 x 32K MSC8-AB boards). They are somewhat rare. I believe I've got a KT8A or two, and even a working 8/A to put them in, all within a few miles of Zane. (But I can't take on writing a z-machine anytime soon.) > I've never seen those particular add-in boards in a machine in the > wild. I bought mine from DEC resellers. I bought a set from a fellow collector, but I've also seen them on ePay from time to time. They don't seem as rare as I'd expected. Vince From awmolloy at landsnail.com Wed Apr 4 23:15:40 2007 From: awmolloy at landsnail.com (Andrew Molloy) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver Message-ID: <183069.7907.qm@web55004.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Dwight, that is great news. I have a Cat dot matrix printer, but using an HP laser printer would be nicer. I wonder if the newer PCL 5 and 6 printers are backwards compatible? Are you using a LaserJet II? I'd like to get a copy to type in. Thanks! Andy ----- Original Message ---- From: dwight elvey To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2007 11:55:42 AM Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver Hi All I've been able to create a driver to output to a HP printer running PCL. One needs to be able to enter the Forth mode. There were a few application softwares for the Cat that have locked out the Forth access. I've not gotten to these yet to look at how to re-enable the Forth mode. Still, most only have the normal Cat without anything extra. This code should be fine there. There is quite a bit that one can do with the Cat and just the ROM that came with it. Normally the Cat only had drivers for Canon printers and the FX80 type printers ( that were copied by several dot printers of the time ). Since the printer did formatted printing, it required a driver specific to the printer. Since I didn't have a Canon printer and was happy with my HP, I was interrested in adding code that would drive my HP. The Cat has an interesting feature in that it copies the entire RAM to disk. This means that any code entered can be made to come back on each boot without any additional operations. The Cat is programmed in Forth. I figured that I could make the needed modification my self. That was several years ago when I first got the Cat. What I didn't realize was that I had no idea how to decompile the current code or what the various escape sequences meant to the Canon printers. The first big break was finding a couple of manuals at the Stanford Special collections library, left by Jef Rasken before he died. These gave me the needed information on both the Forth and quite a bit on the printer drivers. Understanding a few other bits and pieces came from one of the developers of the Cat ( Charlie Springer ). I never did find anything other than a Japanesse document on the LIPS codes used for the Canon Laser Beam printers. I did fine some for the FX80 and the Canon Bubble Jet. With this information I've been able to determine quite a bit about writing the driver for the HP. I realize that most people would never use any of the printer escape sequences but Canon should make them a little more available. Back on subject. I've created a driver that one can type in. I've not setup propotional spacing yet but it does handle most of the needed operations. I've not looked at any of the foreign character printing yet but as long as one stays with regular the character set, it should be fine. One can use it for its intended purpose ( editor, mail list, speadsheet or whatever ) or one can put their Forth code in and print is all out on a HP with my driver. I hope to get it posted on Bruce's DigiBarn Canon Cat page but until then, if anyone is interested, send an email to me. Dwight dkelvey at hot mail dot com PS I just saw another Cat on ebay. That make three I've seen in the last year or so. _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Apr 4 23:30:06 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:30:06 -0400 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: > 1) Can you specify which pages to swap? For the Z-machine, one would > want to swap the game data first, then the interpreter (if at all). I'm afraid I don't remember much about its architecture. I don't think there was a way to "lock" pages into memory. > 2) Perhaps this emulator could be stripped down to to run one > particular > program: Frotz compiled for pdp11. Probably. > 3) Can the emulator be wrapped up with the only binary it will > run? The > idea is to have a single Frotz binary for pdp8 to simplify > distribution. The biggest problem is that it only exists as a paper listing at the moment. I'm planning on typing it in once I get my SBC6120 working (still have some parts on order). In any case, it was written using PAL8 so it isn't a library that can be linked with other modules. I guess that could be changed too. Are there PDP-8 cross development tools available for modern machines? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 23:58:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 23:58:33 -0500 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, David Griffith wrote: > This sounds like it could be adapted for my purposes. Some things I'd > want to address: > > 1) Can you specify which pages to swap? For the Z-machine, one would > want to swap the game data first, then the interpreter (if at all). This is more targeted towards the VM model for a native Zmachine, but the philosophy holds, I think... The model that Infocom used was to not swap the interpreter ever. The interpreters written in assembler for the 6502 were a few K-bytes. The one that Mike Riley wrote for the 1802 is also a few K-bytes. By "few", I mean more than 5, less than 10. The pure (unchanging) game file pages could be overwritten at any time because it was easier to re-fetch them from known places on the disk than to track where they might end up if written dynamically. The "impure" game file storage (variables, stack...) were read in from the floppy *once* per session, then written out as the saved game. They were never swapped out during game play (the performance hit would be *terrible*), though there's nothing in the architecture that forbids it. The model was to never write to the game floppy, only to read from it. Games were saved by request, all at once, by recording all of the changed game pages to a floppy (a C-64 floppy could hold, IIRC, 4 v3-game saves per 170K, but there's no guarantee they were using the disk efficiently). I would think that emulating a processor that's running an interpreter would make it exceedingly difficult to differentiate memory types used but the application. This would turn the -8 emulator code into, essentially, a huge exercise in disk swapping with the side effect of interpreting PDP-11 code, I'd think. > 2) Perhaps this emulator could be stripped down to to run one particular > program: Frotz compiled for pdp11. > > 3) Can the emulator be wrapped up with the only binary it will run? The > idea is to have a single Frotz binary for pdp8 to simplify distribution. I would think that if you were going to try to emulate an -11 on an -8, you'd want the simplest possible -11 program running under that environment - Frotz isn't that simple. Megan Gentry has a nicely working Zmachine written in MACRO-11 for RT-11. Frotz, owing to its origins in C, is going to have huge amounts of library overhead. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 00:01:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:01:57 -0500 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, David Betz wrote: > > 1) Can you specify which pages to swap? For the Z-machine, one would > > want to swap the game data first, then the interpreter (if at all). > > I'm afraid I don't remember much about its architecture. I don't > think there was a way to "lock" pages into memory. There was not. The interpreter peered at the game header and determined at instantiation time what was pure and what was impure. The game file layout was sort-of segmented. Once the interpreter determined where the end of impure storage was in the game file, any pages above that address in the game file could be overwritten in memory without any repercussions. This all went away with larger architectures like the 68000 and x86, but for any small machine, where the 96Kbyte-128Kbyte game file exceeds the target's physical memory, pure/impure demand-paging is how Infocom did it, regardless of OS or instruction set. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 00:09:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:09:45 -0500 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <46142B8E.3030000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <46142B8E.3030000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, woodelf wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > When you say "game data", do you mean the impure area? If so, I'd > > agree for v5 games, but it's substantially less for v3 games - i.e., > > the ones that shipped for the Apple II and the TRS-80 and the C-64, > > etc. The larger of the home 8-bitters could run some v5 games, but I > > think 32K was the cutoff - machines that had 32K or less were never > > asked to run v5 games. > > -ethan > > Also a Z-machine requires a termial rather than a TTY. The Z-machine requires a terminal (sometimes called a "scope" in DEC OSes, as in 'set tt scope') for the status line (number of turns elapsed, score or time, name of present location...), but I do not believe v3 games will choke if the status line directives are no-ops. One could just belt out a stream of text interspersed with prompts, much like the "SCRIPT" works when printing an ongoing session directly to a printer. In any case, plenty of PDP-8s had some sort of terminal instead of just an ASR-33 TTY. My -8/L has 12K of core, and a PC04 high-speed paper tape reader. I can load in the RIM and BIN loaders from it. I don't have to have a TTY. In fact, to save paper, I do most of my work on it from a VT220, plugging 20mA connection from the W076 right into the back of the terminal, one of the best features, to me, of the VT220. If only its VT52 emulation worked with TECO and the VTEDIT MACRO. >From the VT8E to the VT50/VT52 to the VT100 and VT220, it wasn't that odd to see other consoles on a PDP-8 than a real ASR-33. The trick was how to go from the toggle-in RIM loader up to the application level. My -8/e has a rope-core ROM board to boot OS/8 from TU56s. It doesn't _have_ to have paper tape either. It has mass storage and a boot strap. By the time the -8/a came out (1976), TTYs weren't an essential requirement if one had floppies or some bootable hard disk. Yes, there were still plenty of ASR-33s on PDP-8s, but that's not the only way they came. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 00:25:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:25:59 -0500 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <200704042049.l34Knrl6011047@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, David Griffith wrote: > One of the big things that allowed the Z-machine to run on machines of > limited memory was its virtual memory functionality. Most modern > implementations don't bother with this anymore. True. OTOH, it was a specialized VM implementation to solve only the problem of how to handle a 96K-128K file in a machine that might have 48K total, prior to OS overhead (thinking of the TRS-80 and Apple II). The initial Z-machine for the C-64 doesn't do any memory bank tricks, leaving it much less free space than 48K (later interpreters are much more elaborate). Years ago, I took the C-64 interpreter and patched it to run on the VIC-20. I never ran it on the real hardware, but when I stuffed RAM into every open orifice in the memory map (including lofting the interpreter into cartridge ROM space), it booted and ran numerous v3 games under VICE. If I had to estimate, I had between 28K and 32K of RAM for the game, plus 6K of "ROM" for the engine. 40K for the game, the rest of the machine could be taken up with OS overhead, I/O registers, etc. > What I'm really after is getting a V8 (V5 would be acceptable) Z-machine > working on my SBC6120. Wow... with the pure memory requirements/capacities of the v5 and larger game file formats, that's going to be difficult to juggle in RAM. At least OS/8 has a low memory footprint when applications are running. For those that are still reading this thread and haven't delved into the inner workings of a Z-machine... http://www.gnelson.demon.co.uk/zspec/appd.html -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 5 00:45:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:45:12 -0700 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices Message-ID: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca> I just received a question from a fellow interested in the pricing of core memory: "How much did this memory cost per bit, byte, or word? I am doing a historical storyboard on the HP2100A used as the data processing system for the HP5930A mass spectrometer and I would like to get some hard data on costs of core memory." Would someone (likely candidates: Jay, Bob :) ) have period price info for a core memory module for the HP2100A? I will pass on responses as well as suggest that he may wish to temporarily join the list to ask other questions about the HP2100A. I will also pass on the email addresses of responders (please indicate if you don't wish me to do so) should he prefer to address questions directly to those more knowledgeable about the HP2100 than I. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 5 01:09:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 01:09:20 -0500 Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Alison wrote.... > You have to be kidding me. I have that arrangement and it's solid. The > RX02 > bottom is well shielded as it the top of the RL02 logic. Not only am I not kidding, but I can PROVE that RFI/EMI is the problem. I took off the side panel of the H960 cabinet so I could access the RX02 and RL02 from the side, without disturbing any cables whatsoever. I slid a metal sheet inbetween the RX02 and RL02, both of which were fully retracted inside the cabinet. I powered up everything and then hit load on the RL02. It loaded fine with no fault. >From the side, I could pull the metal sheet between the two out towards the side. After sliding it out a few inches the ready light would start flashing... the further I pulled it out the faster the RL02 ready light would flash. If I pulled it out all the way, the RL02 would fault. Problem proven :) I'm not saying that ANY RL02/RX02 combo will have this issue, but mine clearly does. And it isn't cables. I do have to disagree with you on one point, the top of the RL02 logic sure doesn't appear well shielded to me. With regards to the RX02 - the left drive works fine, the right drive has never worked. I will try Tony's suggestion tomorrow and see if that confirms the diagnosis. But when I can move a metal sheet between the drives and cause/fix the problem, I'm pretty sure I know what is causing it. So if Alison has this same set up and it's "solid" for her, why is it not for me? Jay From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 5 01:44:28 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:44:28 +0200 Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488361@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jay wrote: > Alison wrote.... > > You have to be kidding me. I have that arrangement and it's solid. > > The > > RX02 > > bottom is well shielded as it the top of the RL02 logic. > > Not only am I not kidding, but I can PROVE that RFI/EMI is > the problem. > > I took off the side panel of the H960 cabinet so I could > access the RX02 and > RL02 from the side, without disturbing any cables whatsoever. > I slid a metal sheet inbetween the RX02 and RL02, both of > which were fully retracted inside the cabinet. > > I powered up everything and then hit load on the RL02. It > loaded fine with no fault. > > >From the side, I could pull the metal sheet between the two > out towards > >the > side. After sliding it out a few inches the ready light would > start flashing... the further I pulled it out the faster the > RL02 ready light would flash. If I pulled it out all the way, > the RL02 would fault. Problem proven :) > > I'm not saying that ANY RL02/RX02 combo will have this issue, > but mine clearly does. And it isn't cables. I do have to > disagree with you on one point, the top of the RL02 logic > sure doesn't appear well shielded to me. > > With regards to the RX02 - the left drive works fine, the > right drive has never worked. I will try Tony's suggestion > tomorrow and see if that confirms the diagnosis. But when I > can move a metal sheet between the drives and cause/fix the > problem, I'm pretty sure I know what is causing it. So if > Alison has this same set up and it's "solid" for her, why is > it not for me? > > Jay Hmm, I said that you could inspect the brushes of the spindle motor. Get an AM radio and listen to the interference (if it is audible). As to why Allison doesn't seem to have this problem, she probably does not have the RFI source you have in the RX02 :-) Perhaps your RX02 is only missing a simple wire to connect "something" to the frame of the RX02 to ground whatever ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From bear at typewritten.org Thu Apr 5 02:59:33 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:59:33 -0700 Subject: NextStep 3.3 dmesg problem In-Reply-To: <15E15501-FABC-4552-B430-76FA4C87C27E@earthlink.net> References: <15E15501-FABC-4552-B430-76FA4C87C27E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <75C9EFE4-B046-4AB0-B443-B570A34F3BF0@typewritten.org> On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:42 PM, mike ingram wrote: > on an otherwise perfectly working system, the command /usr/etc/ > dmesg returns > > # dmesg > > Apr 4 19:32 > Can't get kernel namelist It doesn't work. There are tiny pieces of SVR4 and some number of pieces of POSIX in NEXTSTEP but neither are especially complete, and you shouldn't expect those interfaces to work even though sometimes some of it does work "enough". OPENSTEP 4 is noticeably more complete in this regard, but still pretty thin on the ground by modern standards (it was thin on the ground by most people's standards even when OPENSTEP was current). There is, for example, enough of utsname to write your own 'uname'. I had to do this once for some braindead autoconf script. Generally, though, forget it. ok bear From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Apr 5 05:42:59 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:42:59 -0400 Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <5CDDAB55-88B1-4A79-A457-5865CF223ECC@xlisper.com> >> > 1) Can you specify which pages to swap? For the Z-machine, one >> would >> > want to swap the game data first, then the interpreter (if at all). >> >> I'm afraid I don't remember much about its architecture. I don't >> think there was a way to "lock" pages into memory. > > There was not. The interpreter peered at the game header and > determined at instantiation time what was pure and what was impure. Sorry, I was talking about not remembering whether my PDP-11 simulator allowed pages to be locked in memory. I suspect it didn't. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 5 02:28:16 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: <46142B8E.3030000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <46142B8E.3030000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, woodelf wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > When you say "game data", do you mean the impure area? If so, I'd > > agree for v5 games, but it's substantially less for v3 games - i.e., > > the ones that shipped for the Apple II and the TRS-80 and the C-64, > > etc. The larger of the home 8-bitters could run some v5 games, but I > > think 32K was the cutoff - machines that had 32K or less were never > > asked to run v5 games. > > -ethan > > Also a Z-machine requires a termial rather than a TTY. Not true. Dumb Frotz simply emits text. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 5 02:33:07 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, David Betz wrote: > The biggest problem is that it only exists as a paper listing at the > moment. I'm planning on typing it in once I get my SBC6120 working > (still have some parts on order). In any case, it was written using > PAL8 so it isn't a library that can be linked with other modules. I > guess that could be changed too. Are there PDP-8 cross development > tools available for modern machines? I was hoping for a pdp8 C cross-compiler. Your hack seems to get the closest. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 5 02:49:10 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z-machine on pdp8 (or paging Woodelf) In-Reply-To: References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would think that if you were going to try to emulate an -11 on an > -8, you'd want the simplest possible -11 program running under that > environment - Frotz isn't that simple. Megan Gentry has a nicely > working Zmachine written in MACRO-11 for RT-11. Interesting. I wonder if there's anything in there that's helpful in making a pdp8 zmachine. I went ahead and uploaded it to the IF Archive. > Frotz, owing to its origins in C, is going to have huge amounts of > library overhead. I'm aware of that problem. However, the core and dumb interface use only libc, so that may be helpful. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 5 02:01:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:01:32 +0100 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <89C7E692-D4A8-4E07-AFF9-59EC3BD6875F@neurotica.com> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> <89C7E692-D4A8-4E07-AFF9-59EC3BD6875F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1175756492.31172.15.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 21:51 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 4, 2007, at 3:27 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of > >> a reason > >> not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? > > > > It does seem odd, but maybe the motor in the RX02 is a bit hashy? > > > > I know that my PDP-11/73 (http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net) has the RX02 at > > the top of the cabinet, then the OEM processor box, then the RL02s > > below. I assumed it was for weight... > > As an aside...that's a damn nice looking system; who made the > processor box? I've used a lot of third-party DECish stuff, and I've > never seen one quite like that. Baydel. It's a pretty chunky box - lots of very thick steel. As an aside, I contacted Baydel recently. They're still going, but the guy I emailed had just dumped the last of his PDP-11 stuff a couple of months before "because you can't hang on to everything..." Ah well. Gordon From cc at corti-net.de Thu Apr 5 03:50:32 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:50:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Jay West wrote: > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly on top > of a RL02 in an H960??? Interesting, I have nearly the same configuration, a 11/45 mounted in a H960 cabinet, a RX02, a RL02 and a RK05. Everything's working fine. The only difference is that I have the RL02 above the RX02 because the RX02 is rather short and won't block the air circulation to the CPU chassis. So my cabinet looks like this: +--------+ | RK05 | +--------+ | RL02 | +--------+ | RX02 | +--------+ | | | CPU | | | +--------+ o o Christian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 02:20:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 00:20:47 -0700 Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <461440DF.25843.2CADF4F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2007 at 1:09, Jay West wrote: > Alison wrote.... > > You have to be kidding me. I have that arrangement and it's solid. The > > RX02 > > bottom is well shielded as it the top of the RL02 logic. > > Not only am I not kidding, but I can PROVE that RFI/EMI is the problem. I wonder if it's more EMI than RFI, because it reminds me of a nasty problem we had when developing the Durango F85. If you look at the machine, there's a 9-inch CRT placed above the dual floppy drive. Before we actually had a production model, we worked from a lash-up with a keyboard connected to a card cage connected to the PSU, monitor and diskette drives--all laid out on a benchtop in traditional develpment fashion. It all worked fine. Then came the first production prototypes. Naturally, the initial ones were given to the marketing people to take pretty pictures of and show around at shows and to prospective customers. The software folk were the last to get a real one. Except for one problem... The diskette drives refused to work on the production model. Grounding braid was added, power supply connections were re-routed and everything else was tried. Nothing worked--but the laid-out-on- the bench lash-up worked perfectly, even when the production cards and drives were substituted. But the pretty production models refused to even boot. The engineers were baffled--until someone took the monitor off of the top of the diskette drive area to attach a scope probe--and the problem went away. It turns out that the FBT was kicking up noise something fierce in the read channels of the diskette drives. An shield made of sheet aluminum didn't get rid of the problem, but one made of steel worked just fine. We also added a shield around the paper feed stepper--it seems that when a line- or form-feed was performed, the CRT image shuddered something awful. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 5 04:11:48 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:11:48 +0100 Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4614BD54.1070100@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/04/2007 07:09, Jay West wrote: > Alison wrote.... >> You have to be kidding me. I have that arrangement and it's solid. >> The RX02 >> bottom is well shielded as it the top of the RL02 logic. > I'm not saying that ANY RL02/RX02 combo will have this issue, but mine > clearly does. And it isn't cables. I do have to disagree with you on one > point, the top of the RL02 logic sure doesn't appear well shielded to me. Mine aren't either. > With regards to the RX02 - the left drive works fine, the right drive > has never worked. I will try Tony's suggestion tomorrow and see if that > confirms the diagnosis. But when I can move a metal sheet between the > drives and cause/fix the problem, I'm pretty sure I know what is causing > it. So if Alison has this same set up and it's "solid" for her, why is > it not for me? Does your RX02 have a metal cover under each drive unit, or can you see the motor and the belt if you look underneath? Mine have anodised aluminium alloy covers which are folded around the bottom of each drive unit, and presumably are an effective shield. I've seen drives where those have been lost, though. What's wrong with the right hand drive? Does it spin? I've had one with a siezed bearing, fixed by careful application of releasing oil, elbow grease, and then proper lubrication. If it spins, does it clamp the disk properly? I've had three with broken collets. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 08:37:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:37:58 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 4/5/07, Christian Corti wrote: > ... So my cabinet looks like this: > > +--------+ > | RK05 | > +--------+ > | RL02 | > +--------+ > | RX02 | > +--------+ > | | > | CPU | > | | > +--------+ > o o Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 5 09:08:01 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:08:01 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <5CDDAB55-88B1-4A79-A457-5865CF223ECC@xlisper.com> References: <46141A2F.1060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <12D41780-82CA-44CD-8E47-193723A6D433@xlisper.com> <5CDDAB55-88B1-4A79-A457-5865CF223ECC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <461502C1.9040204@atarimuseum.com> Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? Curt From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 5 09:19:33 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:19:33 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46150575.6000806@bellatlantic.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/5/07, Christian Corti wrote: >> ... So my cabinet looks like this: >> >> +--------+ >> | RK05 | >> +--------+ >> | RL02 | >> +--------+ >> | RX02 | >> +--------+ >> | | >> | CPU | >> | | >> +--------+ >> o o > > Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. Ouch my back... My 50" rack is: VT340 (on top) +--------+ | shelf | (loose media, books) +--------+ | RD/RX | +--------+ | 11/73 | +--------+ | RX02 | +--------+ | RL02 | +--------+ o o FYI: the bottom plate for my RX02 is steel so if the interference was magnetic that may be a difference. It been this way for many years with no issues. Notes: This is a very non-DEC config! Ir's a result of hybriding several systems together to get the most in the minimum space. The 11/73 is in a BA11 (s) box with a Micropdp-11 backplane mounted for serpentine slots. That way it fits all the memory and IO. The RL controller is RlV21 the single board version for RL drives. The shelf above the RX02 with the RD/RX has several RD52s(2) and RX33. It's a standard rack shelf with drives and a power supply for them and the write/ready buttons from a BA123 as I use a RQDX3 and distribution board from a BA123 as the disk interface. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 5 10:57:05 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:57:05 -0500 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic Message-ID: <46151C51.3070209@yahoo.co.uk> Is this online anywhere to anyone's knowledge? I assume it's in the techrefs [1] (which I don't have, unfortunately), but I'm sure I've seen the schematic online somewhere in the last few years. IIRC it's only a handful of latches, buffers and address decoding - so not a complex bit of hardware. [1] The circuit on the MDA card is probably the same... if someone could confirm that then I could at least trace it from a real MDA card here :) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 5 11:00:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:00:44 -0600 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Apr 2007 00:17:45 +0200. <20070405001745.2ef80dad@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: In article <20070405001745.2ef80dad at SirToby.dinner41.local>, Jochen Kunz writes: > Free for local pickup in Kaiserslautern Germany: > Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive, Pertec interface, 1600 and 6250 bpi. > Excellent condition, 19" rack rails included. Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Sun even resold them under their brand for a while. > Do not even think of shipping. Too big, way too heavy. Oh, p'shaw. Don't let Sridhar hear you say that :-). These things are big and they are heavy, but entire factories can be shipped around if you're willing to spend the bucks :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bob at jfcl.com Thu Apr 5 12:03:31 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:03:31 -0700 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c777a4$56b51b80$3ad51299@Rhyme> Jay wrote: > Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 > directly on top of a RL02 in an H960??? I had exactly this same problem with a RL02 and RX02 in my PDP-8/A. In my case, mounting the RX02 _under_ the RL02 (rather than on top of it) did work. Bob Armstrong From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Apr 5 12:27:32 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 17:27:32 +0000 Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on Message-ID: <040520071727.3716.461531830007385B00000E8422007343649DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> I had a similar problem when I put together my first PC-XT clone. It had an open-frame Panasonic 9" monitor on top of the main box, which was made of 1/4" plywood (cherry stained). Putting a sheet of aluminum under the plywood top solved the problem. Bob >Message: 20 >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 00:20:47 -0700 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <461440DF.25843.2CADF4F8 at cclist.sydex.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >I wonder if it's more EMI than RFI, because it reminds me of a nasty >problem we had when developing the Durango F85. >If you look at the machine, there's a 9-inch CRT placed above the >dual floppy drive. >The diskette drives refused to work on the production model. >The engineers were baffled--until someone took the monitor off of the >top of the diskette drive area to attach a scope probe--and the >problem went away. It turns out that the FBT was kicking up noise >something fierce in the read channels of the diskette drives. An >shield made of sheet aluminum didn't get rid of the problem, but one >made of steel worked just fine. >Cheers, >Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 12:38:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:38:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? Message-ID: I am working on the reset circuit of an HP9816 computer. The output side is rrlatively conventional, but it takes an input from a chip that I can't identify. The chip is a 16 pin DIL package marked with the HP house-number 1858-0054. That's not in my equivalents list. The chip seems to have been made by RCA, and tracing the connections to it show that 2 of the pins are grounded, but none of them go to any power line. I susepct it's a transistor array, therefore (HP1585-xxxx numbers tend to be transistor arrays too). I've unsodered the chip, but trying to work out the internal arrangement is non-trivial, partly because there seem to be parasitic diodes, and secondly because I am not convinced it's just transistors brought out to the pins. There may be a long-tailed pair, for example. It doesn't match any of the arrays in my RCA databook. As I said, it's on the main processor board (the big board at the bottom) of an HP9816 computer. It's U115 on this board, at the front left corner, just behind the 16MHz clock oscillator can. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it might be? Anyone have an HP9816 with this IC labelled with somethign other than an HP house number? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 12:47:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:47:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488361@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Apr 5, 7 08:44:28 am Message-ID: > Hmm, I said that you could inspect the brushes of the spindle > motor. Get an AM radio and listen to the interference (if it What brushes? The RX02 spindle motor is an AC (mains) capacitor-run induction motor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 12:41:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:41:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 4, 7 05:53:29 pm Message-ID: > > > > >Subject: Re: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on > >> > >> Ok, is there a known severe RFI problem with mounting a RX02 directly on top > >> of a RL02 in an H960??? > > You have to be kidding me. I have that arrangement and it's solid. The RX02 > bottom is well shielded as it the top of the RL02 logic. Certainly in RX01s, I've seen 2 different drive mechanisms with different spindle motors. It's very possible that the stray field is different from the 2 types. I don;'t think this is an RFI issue. I think it's more likely to be a mains-frequency magnetic field being picked up by the RL's heads. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 12:46:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:46:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: SOLVED: RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 5, 7 01:09:20 am Message-ID: > With regards to the RX02 - the left drive works fine, the right drive has > never worked. I will try Tony's suggestion tomorrow and see if that confirms Wht's wrong with it? I am wondering if there could be some connection here. If, for example, the spindle motor isn't turning due to some fault, it might affect the stray field. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 12:53:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:53:37 -0400 Subject: NextStep 3.3 dmesg problem In-Reply-To: <75C9EFE4-B046-4AB0-B443-B570A34F3BF0@typewritten.org> References: <15E15501-FABC-4552-B430-76FA4C87C27E@earthlink.net> <75C9EFE4-B046-4AB0-B443-B570A34F3BF0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <461537A1.4040708@gmail.com> r.stricklin wrote: >> on an otherwise perfectly working system, the command >> /usr/etc/dmesg returns >> >> # dmesg >> >> Apr 4 19:32 >> Can't get kernel namelist > > It doesn't work. There are tiny pieces of SVR4 and some number of pieces > of POSIX in NEXTSTEP but neither are especially complete, and you > shouldn't expect those interfaces to work even though sometimes some of > it does work "enough". OPENSTEP 4 is noticeably more complete in this > regard, but still pretty thin on the ground by modern standards (it was > thin on the ground by most people's standards even when OPENSTEP was > current). > > There is, for example, enough of utsname to write your own 'uname'. I > had to do this once for some braindead autoconf script. > > Generally, though, forget it. I wonder if there's enough support under NeXTstep to get GNU Coreutils compiled. Hmm. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 5 13:12:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 14:12:36 -0400 Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? Message-ID: <0JG100GIGEHR62B4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 18:38:14 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I am working on the reset circuit of an HP9816 computer. The output side >is rrlatively conventional, but it takes an input from a chip that I >can't identify. > >The chip is a 16 pin DIL package marked with the HP house-number >1858-0054. That's not in my equivalents list. The chip seems to have been >made by RCA, and tracing the connections to it show that 2 of the pins >are grounded, but none of them go to any power line. I susepct it's a >transistor array, therefore (HP1585-xxxx numbers tend to be transistor >arrays too). > >I've unsodered the chip, but trying to work out the internal arrangement >is non-trivial, partly because there seem to be parasitic diodes, and >secondly because I am not convinced it's just transistors brought out to >the pins. There may be a long-tailed pair, for example. It doesn't match >any of the arrays in my RCA databook. > >As I said, it's on the main processor board (the big board at the bottom) >of an HP9816 computer. It's U115 on this board, at the front left corner, >just behind the 16MHz clock oscillator can. > >Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it might be? Anyone have an >HP9816 with this IC labelled with somethign other than an HP house number? Search for RCA CA3080, 3081, 3082 and also look at 3046. RCA did a large number of transistor arrays (and MOS transistor arrays). The common layouts were 8 common transisters with emitter(grounded) base and collectors brought to pins, 8 common collector (VCC) with emitter and base brought to pins. Others include differential amps, darlington arrays and some combination arrays. You have noticed there are a large number of parasitic diodes as a side effect of forming the devices on one die. FYI here is a sample of some of the devices: The common collector and common emitter devices were handy for LED segment and digit drivers but were not limited to those uses. Ca3081, ca3082 are examples of this. Diferential arrays like the ca3026, CA3028, ca3046, ca3049, ca3053, ca3054 were largely used for RF and analog applications but could be handy for ECL interface to other logic. The CA3018, ca3084 were a darlington pair and two uncommitted transistors. CA3036 dual darlington array with all collectors common. CA3019 and 3039 diode arrays, handy when one needs matched temperature tracking diodes. Just a few off the top of my head that I'd used never mind the more appication specific Opamps and communications circuits blocks (mixers, IF amps, Audio amps and TV chroma, sync, video processing). RCA had a very extensive line of monolythic devices. Allison > >-tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Apr 5 13:15:42 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:15:42 -0700 Subject: HP 1611 Microprocessor Logic Analyzer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C505@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Does anyone on the list have documentation for the 1611s? I have the 6502 and Z80 systems. I need schematics, especially for the power supply and monitor. Will pay for copying or will scan and return originals. Thanks for any help. Billy From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 13:19:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:19:32 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... So my cabinet looks like this: >> >> +--------+ >> | RK05 | >> +--------+ >> | RL02 | >> +--------+ >> | RX02 | >> +--------+ >> | | >> | CPU | >> | | >> +--------+ >> o o > > Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. Yeah, I felt a shooting pain in my groin just looking at that drawing. I sure hope two people were involved! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 5 14:23:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:23:09 -0700 Subject: HP1611 Message-ID: <46154C9D.40709@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone on the list have documentation for the 1611s? I have it. May even be scanned. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 15:14:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:14:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 5, 7 09:37:58 am Message-ID: > > Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. When I rack-mounted my RK05s (I have them in the 5th 'bay' from the bottom of a pair of H980s), I took them apart first. Took off the covers, all the boards, the PSU module, front panel, positioner/heads, spindle, spindle motor, blower, etc. The empty chassis wasn't too hard to handle and get onto the rails, and then I just had to put every back in place (which wasn't hard, and amazingly the heads didn't need aligning). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 15:17:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:17:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: <46151C51.3070209@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 5, 7 10:57:05 am Message-ID: > > > Is this online anywhere to anyone's knowledge? I assume it's in the techrefs It is. It's in Volume 2 of the Options and Adapters Techref at least (I have it). > [1] (which I don't have, unfortunately), but I'm sure I've seen the schematic > online somewhere in the last few years. > > IIRC it's only a handful of latches, buffers and address decoding - so not a > complex bit of hardware. Yes, just a few TTL chips, nothing really clever at all. > > [1] The circuit on the MDA card is probably the same... if someone could > confirm that then I could at least trace it from a real MDA card here :) There are minor differences, mainly due to the fact that the MDA card's printer port is at a different address (you can have the MDA card _and_ 2 printer adapters in the same machine). Are you in England at the moment? If so, I could probably be convinced to snail-mail you a copy of the page from the Techref. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 15:26:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:26:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: <0JG100GIGEHR62B4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 5, 7 02:12:36 pm Message-ID: > Search for RCA CA3080, 3081, 3082 and also look at 3046. RCA did a large > number of transistor arrays (and MOS transistor arrays). I'm pretty sure I've checked it against all of those, and none make any sense. Also, it's a 16 pin DIL pacakge, many of the transistor arrays I've looked at are 14 pin DIL (or 10 / 12 lead metal cans) Here's what I've discovered so far : Pins 2 and 4 are grounded on the PCB, and are probably the emitters of 2 transsitors Pin 3 is linked to pin 6, then pulled up by a 464R ressitor. This goes to the input of a '14 schmitt trigger. I guess pins 3 and 6 are collectors of transistors in the chip Pin 16 is not connected Pins 7,8, 9 aren't connected either. They appear to be the 3 connections of another transistor in the chip, with pin 89 as the base > > The common layouts were 8 common transisters with emitter(grounded) base > and collectors brought to pins, 8 common collector (VCC) with emitter and Certainly not either of those. > base brought to pins. Others include differential amps, darlington arrays > and some combination arrays. You have noticed there are a large number > of parasitic diodes as a side effect of forming the devices on one die. Yes, and they sure make sorting out the internal configuration non-trivial :-) > > FYI here is a sample of some of the devices: > > The common collector and common emitter devices were handy for LED > segment and digit drivers but were not limited to those uses. > Ca3081, ca3082 are examples of this. FWIW, the display anode driver (segment driver) chip in the HP67 calculator is one of these. It's about the only non-custom chip you'll find in an LED-display HP handheld calculator. -tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Apr 5 13:50:02 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:50:02 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C506@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Richard wrote: Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Sun even resold them under their brand for a while. Billy responds: Actually Sun sold off a large inventory that built up during a model transition. The tape units had the Sun colors, mods and logo already. Fujitsu also had an inventory to sell off when Sun buying went soft. For years, it seemed like everyone had 2442's to sell. Took about 3 years to burn off that inventory. Billy From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Apr 5 18:24:50 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 16:24:50 -0700 Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? References: Message-ID: <001001c777d9$9f2a5a30$0201a8c0@hal9000> Tony, My two favorite sources for HP to JEDEC numbers; http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.terrell/RefHPSemi.html http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles/300-hpxref.pdf have " holes " at your number. However, see below; > > Search for RCA CA3080, 3081, 3082 and also look at 3046. RCA did a large > > number of transistor arrays (and MOS transistor arrays). > > I'm pretty sure I've checked it against all of those, and none make any > sense. Also, it's a 16 pin DIL pacakge, many of the transistor arrays > I've looked at are 14 pin DIL (or 10 / 12 lead metal cans) The families where the holes are tend to be 16 pin DIPs with seven NPN transistors arranged in a common Collector arrangement ( i.e. CA3082 type ). > Here's what I've discovered so far : > > Pins 2 and 4 are grounded on the PCB, and are probably the emitters of 2 > transsitors Pins 2 and 4 are the Emitters on Q2 and Q5 respectively. > > Pin 3 is linked to pin 6, then pulled up by a 464R ressitor. This goes to > the input of a '14 schmitt trigger. I guess pins 3 and 6 are collectors > of transistors in the chip Pins 3 and 6 are the Base inputs on Q2 and Q5 respectively. > Pin 16 is not connected Pin 16 is the BASE of Q1. > > Pins 7,8, 9 aren't connected either. They appear to be the 3 connections > of another transistor in the chip, with pin 89 as the base > Pins 7 and 8 are the Emitter and Base on Q6. Pin 9 is the Emitter of Q7. > > > > > The common layouts were 8 common transisters with emitter(grounded) base > > and collectors brought to pins, 8 common collector (VCC) with emitter and > > Certainly not either of those. This one has 7 transistors as stated above, common Collector. Sounds like a big discrete "OR " gate. Hope this helps and I'll keep looking for any other pertinent data. regards, Steven > > > base brought to pins. Others include differential amps, darlington arrays > > and some combination arrays. You have noticed there are a large number > > of parasitic diodes as a side effect of forming the devices on one die. > > Yes, and they sure make sorting out the internal configuration > non-trivial :-) > > > > > FYI here is a sample of some of the devices: > > > > The common collector and common emitter devices were handy for LED > > segment and digit drivers but were not limited to those uses. > > Ca3081, ca3082 are examples of this. > > FWIW, the display anode driver (segment driver) chip in the HP67 > calculator is one of these. It's about the only non-custom chip you'll > find in an LED-display HP handheld calculator. > > -tony From cchiesa1 at rochester.rr.com Thu Apr 5 13:56:49 2007 From: cchiesa1 at rochester.rr.com (Chris Chiesa) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 14:56:49 -0400 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needsa home) Message-ID: Got a II/GPX going to the curb in Rochester, NY, if you're interested. ;-) From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 5 15:59:52 2007 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:59:52 +0200 Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? References: Message-ID: <001601c777c5$5e532b40$0103a8c0@xp1800> Tony The following link should bring you further, the component is mentioned 2 times and drawed in one of the diagrams. http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5950EN.pdf It's a transistor array with 5 NPN's on it. Gr. Rik From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 5 14:12:12 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 20:12:12 +0100 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: <46151C51.3070209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46151C51.3070209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1175800332.2943.2.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 10:57 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is this online anywhere to anyone's knowledge? I assume it's in the techrefs > [1] (which I don't have, unfortunately), but I'm sure I've seen the schematic > online somewhere in the last few years. > > IIRC it's only a handful of latches, buffers and address decoding - so not a > complex bit of hardware. > > [1] The circuit on the MDA card is probably the same... if someone could > confirm that then I could at least trace it from a real MDA card here :) I have it, in the techref, but no scanner until I'm back at work on Tuesday. Gordon From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 5 14:07:27 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <461502C1.9040204@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Apr 05, 2007 10:08:01 AM Message-ID: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> > Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > Curt To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to developers. OTOH, Rhapsody with the classic Mac OS interface was seeded. I forget if it was DR2 or DR3 that first sported the Aqua interface, and the first Developer release or two only ran on x86 boxes. The "Prelude to Rhapsody" release first given out an the WWDC and then sent to developers was stock OPENSTEP 4.2 and while intended to run on x86 could apparently also be loaded on NeXT 68k systems as well as the correct HP PA-RISC or Sun Sparc systems. One of these days I'd really like to boot OPENSTEP on a Sparc 5. It should just be a matter of finding the time. Which translates to finding an actual reason to make the time. :^) Zane From info at harrells.net Thu Apr 5 15:48:09 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:48:09 -0400 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46156089.209@harrells.net> Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg or larger. Thanks From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 5 14:57:11 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 14:57:11 -0500 Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070405144623.066e6e78@mail> At 12:38 PM 4/5/2007, Tony Duell wrote: >The chip is a 16 pin DIL package marked with the HP house-number >1858-0054. That's not in my equivalents list. The chip seems to have been >made by RCA, and tracing the connections to it show that 2 of the pins >are grounded, but none of them go to any power line. I susepct it's a >transistor array, therefore (HP1585-xxxx numbers tend to be transistor >arrays too). Yes, the Google shows an Aligent document naming it as a transistor array, but alas no pin-out. It looks like Harris/Intersil and RCA made them, too. - John From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 5 14:37:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:37:58 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] VAXstation II/GPX in Rochester, NY needs a home Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: 5 Apr 2007 12:06:50 -0700 Groups: comp.sys.dec From: "Chris" Org: http://groups.google.com Subject: VAXstation II/GPX in Rochester, NY needs a home Id: <1175800010.745547.49550 at q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> ======== Hello all, Career events require me to move, so am hoeing out old computer stuff. Have a VAXstation II/GPX that is going to the curb next Wednesday morning unless someone else wants to come and take it away... First come, first served; respond via e-mail in case I don't get back here to check; I'm pretty busy these days as you might imagine. As-is. Has VCB02 8-plane color head & monitor. Loaded with VMS V5.4 with DECwindows and C compiler, maybe Fortran??? Licensing is left as an exercise for the reader. Three disk drives, don't remember the models/size, think they're about 700MB apiece. Has TK50 drive that doesn't work. Has third-party (Emulex?) dual-port SCSI card that appears not to work. No manuals (already went out in trash before I thought of offering machine here; sorry). Chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 14:12:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 15:12:19 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <1175756492.31172.15.camel@elric> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> <89C7E692-D4A8-4E07-AFF9-59EC3BD6875F@neurotica.com> <1175756492.31172.15.camel@elric> Message-ID: <6EA567D5-E9DC-4352-BB23-874415A9C34F@neurotica.com> On Apr 5, 2007, at 3:01 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> I know everyone probably thinks I'm nuts, but has anyone heard of >>>> a reason >>>> not to mount a RX02 directly over an RL02??? >>> >>> It does seem odd, but maybe the motor in the RX02 is a bit hashy? >>> >>> I know that my PDP-11/73 (http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net) has the >>> RX02 at >>> the top of the cabinet, then the OEM processor box, then the RL02s >>> below. I assumed it was for weight... >> >> As an aside...that's a damn nice looking system; who made the >> processor box? I've used a lot of third-party DECish stuff, and I've >> never seen one quite like that. > > Baydel. It's a pretty chunky box - lots of very thick steel. As an > aside, I contacted Baydel recently. They're still going, but the > guy I > emailed had just dumped the last of his PDP-11 stuff a couple of > months > before "because you can't hang on to everything..." > > Ah well. Sounds like ISS: "Incompatible Spouse Syndrome". I will keep an eye out for those boxes; it sure does look nice and beefy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 14:14:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 15:14:53 -0400 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Richard wrote: >> Free for local pickup in Kaiserslautern Germany: >> Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive, Pertec interface, 1600 and 6250 >> bpi. >> Excellent condition, 19" rack rails included. > > Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Sun > even resold them under their brand for a while. I think you're thinking of the M2444. That's a damn fine tape drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 5 14:29:35 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 15:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > The chip is a 16 pin DIL package marked with the HP house-number > 1858-0054. That's not in my equivalents list. The chip seems to have been > made by RCA, and tracing the connections to it show that 2 of the pins > are grounded, but none of them go to any power line. I susepct it's a > transistor array, therefore (HP1585-xxxx numbers tend to be transistor > arrays too). >... > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it might be? Anyone have an > HP9816 with this IC labelled with somethign other than an HP house number? It looks like a quad NPN transistor array. This Agilent service manual: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?action=obs&nid=-35712.0.00&lc=swe&cc=SE&ckey=1000000441-1%3Aepsg%3Aman&pubno=5962-8119<ype=&ctype=AGILENT_EDITORIAL ...shows it as Q305, and the schematic will give you the pinouts. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 5 15:35:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 16:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <46150575.6000806@bellatlantic.net> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <46150575.6000806@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <200704052036.QAA04936@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> | RL02 | >>> +--------+ >>> | RX02 | > | RX02 | > +--------+ > | RL02 | I do note RL02-on-RX02 versus RX02-on-RL02; if one has something important near the top or bottom of its space, that could well be the relevant difference here. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 14:56:54 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 15:56:54 -0400 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46155486.7010708@gmail.com> Richard wrote: >> Free for local pickup in Kaiserslautern Germany: >> Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive, Pertec interface, 1600 and 6250 bpi. >> Excellent condition, 19" rack rails included. >> Do not even think of shipping. Too big, way too heavy. > > Oh, p'shaw. Don't let Sridhar hear you say that :-). > > These things are big and they are heavy, but entire factories can be > shipped around if you're willing to spend the bucks :-). Which I'm not, of course. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 15:04:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:04:00 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46155630.3010800@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> ... So my cabinet looks like this: >>> >>> +--------+ >>> | RK05 | >>> +--------+ >>> | RL02 | >>> +--------+ >>> | RX02 | >>> +--------+ >>> | | >>> | CPU | >>> | | >>> +--------+ >>> o o >> >> Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. > > Yeah, I felt a shooting pain in my groin just looking at that > drawing. I sure hope two people were involved! Possibly more. It can be problematic for two people to get an RK05 to go into a space *halfway* up a rack, let alone all the way up there. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 5 19:00:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:00:20 -0500 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <009701c777de$919d7910$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Christian wrote.... > Interesting, I have nearly the same configuration, a 11/45 mounted in a > H960 cabinet, a RX02, a RL02 and a RK05. Someone can probably confirm or deny this... but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you weren't supposed to mount anything above a /45 in an H960 except one device that was not "full depth". Racking more than that and you caused too much heat buildup. I'm sure putting an RL02 and/or RK05 is not the best idea from a air circulation standpoint. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 5 21:05:21 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:05:21 -0500 Subject: RX02 EMI? References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net><009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4614BD54.1070100@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The plot thickens.... 1) I took tony's suggestion and disconnected the AC on both RX02 spindle motors from the back. The problem still occurs so it's not the RX02 spindle motors. 2) I extended the RX02 on the rails and looked underneath. There is a metal plate bolted under each drive. I believe it's steel, it's that burnished "gold" colored metal. There is a separate flat plate under each drive, and the plate L's up the side about 3/4 of an inch. I believe this is properly closed. 3) I put that steel plate between the RL02 and RX02 again and sure enough the problem disappears. This time I tried moving the plate around to localize exactly what on the RL02 must be covered to keep the problem from occuring. This may be telltale. The portion of the drive that needs to be covered by the metal plate to keep the problem from occuring is the top back cover of the RL02. This is the plastic section that is about 8 inches deep front to back, and is exactly over the drive logic board. Interesting that this would mean the plate isn't covering the heads. Also interesting - based on the depth difference between the RX02 and RL02, no part of the RX02 extends over that part of the RL02 EXCEPT the black "wedge" fan housing and fan on the back. 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the top of the RX02. I do not have this cover. I have what I was TOLD is the top cover of the RX02, but there's no way it could possibly fit over the top. I know that a rackmounted RX02 doesn't have a nice finished metal cover, but I do think there is some type of metal cover that is supposed to be on top. I wouldn't have thought this to be so germane to the problem, because the problem is definitely "down and to the rear" from the RX02. 5) The problem with the right drive - I forgot to check this closely, but I am fairly sure that drive spins. But if you put a boot disk in it (that works fine in the left drive) the heads will drop and lift over and over with about 2 or 3 seconds between each drop/lift cycle. It'll do this till I halt the processor. Maybe all the above will trigger a course of action in the brain of someone smarter than me :) Jay From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Apr 5 19:46:41 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 17:46:41 -0700 Subject: ST506 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> * info wrote: ________________________________ Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg or larger. Thanks Billy responds: I see them all the time at the flea markets. And they show up on eBay and Craig's list frequently. Wish I had known of your need. I gave one away last weekend and put a couple more in the scrap barrel on Friday. I may have a couple more at home but won't be going North for another 4 weeks. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 5 19:07:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 17:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver In-Reply-To: <183069.7907.qm@web55004.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <251265.65185.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Ahem, what is a Cat printer? There was a printer specifically made for it? But yes that is great news. Umm, has anyone opened up their Cat? I'm curious how much proprietary logic is hidden therein. Despite the taunts and jeers from certain people on this list...no names Tony Duell, I haven't had the time to play with mine much :( --- Andrew Molloy wrote: > Dwight, that is great news. I have a Cat dot matrix > printer, but using an HP laser printer would be > nicer. I wonder if the newer PCL 5 and 6 printers > are backwards compatible? Are you using a LaserJet > II? > > I'd like to get a copy to type in. Thanks! > > Andy > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: dwight elvey > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2007 11:55:42 AM > Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver > > Hi All > I've been able to create a driver to output to a HP > printer running PCL. > One needs to be able to enter the Forth mode. There > were a few application > softwares for the Cat that have locked out the Forth > access. I've not gotten > to these yet to look at how to re-enable the Forth > mode. Still, most only > have the normal Cat without anything extra. This > code should be fine there. > There is quite a bit that one can do with the Cat > and just the ROM that came > with it. > Normally the Cat only had drivers for Canon printers > and the FX80 type > printers > ( that were copied by several dot printers of the > time ). Since the printer > did > formatted printing, it required a driver specific to > the printer. > Since I didn't have a Canon printer and was happy > with my HP, I was > interrested in adding code that would drive my HP. > The Cat has an interesting feature in that it copies > the entire RAM to disk. > This means that any code entered can be made to come > back on each > boot without any additional operations. > The Cat is programmed in Forth. I figured that I > could make the needed > modification my self. That was several years ago > when I first got the Cat. > What I didn't realize was that I had no idea how to > decompile the current > code or what the various escape sequences meant to > the Canon printers. > The first big break was finding a couple of manuals > at the Stanford Special > collections library, left by Jef Rasken before he > died. These gave me the > needed information on both the Forth and quite a bit > on the printer drivers. > Understanding a few other bits and pieces came from > one of the developers > of the Cat ( Charlie Springer ). I never did find > anything other than a > Japanesse > document on the LIPS codes used for the Canon Laser > Beam printers. > I did fine some for the FX80 and the Canon Bubble > Jet. > With this information I've been able to determine > quite a bit about writing > the driver for the HP. I realize that most people > would never use any of > the printer escape sequences but Canon should make > them a little more > available. > Back on subject. I've created a driver that one can > type in. I've not setup > propotional spacing yet but it does handle most of > the needed operations. > I've not looked at any of the foreign character > printing yet but as long > as one stays with regular the character set, it > should be fine. > One can use it for its intended purpose ( editor, > mail list, speadsheet or > whatever ) > or one can put their Forth code in and print is all > out on a HP with my > driver. > I hope to get it posted on Bruce's DigiBarn Canon > Cat page but until then, > if anyone is interested, send an email to me. > Dwight > dkelvey at hot mail dot com > > PS > I just saw another Cat on ebay. That make three I've > seen in the last year > or so. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. > http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 5 19:54:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 17:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> > Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? Don't think so. . . . and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? Was there a "deal" for mutual suppression? From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 5 19:08:46 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 17:08:46 -0700 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46158F8E.7020508@shiresoft.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. >> > > When I rack-mounted my RK05s (I have them in the 5th 'bay' from the > bottom of a pair of H980s), I took them apart first. Took off the covers, > all the boards, the PSU module, front panel, positioner/heads, spindle, > spindle motor, blower, etc. > > The empty chassis wasn't too hard to handle and get onto the rails, and > then I just had to put every back in place (which wasn't hard, and > amazingly the heads didn't need aligning). > I put all drives into racks fully assembled. Of course I use an "equipment lift" that makes the job easy. I wouldn't even try to rack a Fujitsu Eagle (140+lbs) without it. Compared to Eagles, RK05's are light and RL02's are feather weights. :-) -- TTFN - Guy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 5 19:16:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 19:16:46 -0500 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4615916E.6050100@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Are you in England at the moment? If so, I could probably be convinced to > snail-mail you a copy of the page from the Techref. Now sorted out, but thanks anyway (email burp meant I couldn't reply to say I now have it). Ta to those who offered... cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 5 20:15:17 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:15:17 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20070406011517.E2501BA434C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> ... So my cabinet looks like this: > >> > >> +--------+ > >> | RK05 | > >> +--------+ > >> | RL02 | > >> +--------+ > >> | RX02 | > >> +--------+ > >> | | > >> | CPU | > >> | | > >> +--------+ > >> o o > > > > Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. > > Yeah, I felt a shooting pain in my groin just looking at that > drawing. I sure hope two people were involved! I've done far worse by myself :-). Typically: Lay rack down on side. Install heavy stuff on "top" (which is now ... right). Lift rack back up. (Actually both easier and harder than it sounds. Easier because after you get past the first foot or two the bottom is carrying increasing fractions of the weight. Harder because the bottom is trying to slide away from you!). Then you put the heavy stuff in the bottom. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 21:11:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 19:11:28 -0700 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <46156089.209@harrells.net> References: , <46156089.209@harrells.net> Message-ID: <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2007 at 16:48, info wrote: > Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but > can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg > or larger. Thanks I'm confused. Do you mean a drive with an ST412 interface and not an actual ST506 (5MB unbuffered seek) drive? There should be some of those kicking around, surely. Cheers, Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Thu Apr 5 21:36:55 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:36:55 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> On Apr 5, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > Don't think so. > . . . and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? > > Was there a "deal" for mutual suppression? I don't think there was ever a 68000 version of NT, even under consideration. The initial development target was i860. When it became obvious that wasn't going to work out, efforts went to... I have a Fall '93 developer preview of NT 3.1 which has some text files in the SDK which describe this piece of history. I was just going to check if it wasn't the MC88000 that was briefly considered as the primary target after i860, but before MIPS R4000 (which I recall being the primary target for most of the development phase before the first efforts to bring it up on ia32), but I seem to have temporarily misplaced the disc. ok bear From john at kourafas.com Thu Apr 5 22:02:53 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 23:02:53 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... -JK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Pettit" To: Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:46 PM Subject: ST506 * info wrote: ________________________________ Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg or larger. Thanks Billy responds: I see them all the time at the flea markets. And they show up on eBay and Craig's list frequently. Wish I had known of your need. I gave one away last weekend and put a couple more in the scrap barrel on Friday. I may have a couple more at home but won't be going North for another 4 weeks. Billy -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 5 23:10:32 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 20:10:32 -0800 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: At 7:36 PM -0700 4/5/07, r.stricklin wrote: >I have a Fall '93 developer preview of NT 3.1 which has some text >files in the SDK which describe this piece of history. I was just >going to check if it wasn't the MC88000 that was briefly considered >as the primary target after i860, but before MIPS R4000 (which I >recall being the primary target for most of the development phase >before the first efforts to bring it up on ia32), but I seem to have >temporarily misplaced the disc. Let's see NT supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and what was the other family? I want to say the 4th family was something from Sony, but can't remember. Except for x86 the other three were basically one vendor support I think (granted Alpha was a couple others). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 22:13:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:13:42 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> Message-ID: <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> John Kourafas wrote: > Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both > the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? Peace... Sridhar From john at kourafas.com Thu Apr 5 22:32:55 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 23:32:55 -0400 Subject: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 Message-ID: <007301c777fc$43c4bfa0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> Looking for command reference, documentation, boot disks, anything that will assist me. Also any spare parts from these systems. It is a UNISYS labeled Convergent Technologies built TACCS system. (US Army's Tactical Army Combat Service Support Computer Systems) It has the following modules: CPU 10186 8 Mhz Memory 1MB I/O Video FH Controller Modem MP/EX ?? Controller FM-DTR ?? Micropolis 80MB MFM Drive Model: 1325 (Looking for one of these as well) Teac 1.2MB FD-55GFR Cipher Model 525 Tape Drive ( DC600A ) Tapes I also have the remote terminal which has: CPU 10186 8Mhz Video Board 1MB Memory Board I/O Board It doesn't have FD or HD as it "clusters" to the one above and boots from that via cable (in a perfect world) Along with documentation I am looking for a Video Board (1 is flakey) and a 1MB Memory board (1 is dead) The main system boots the following: T **************** L FH01 V1.2 EA:2 B,D,L,M,P,T:_ I am guessing EA:2 is an error code and B,D,L,M,P,T would be options for something..... Any and all information greatly appreciated, I did take a bunch of pictures, just need to upload them to my web site.... Thanks John Kourafas john at kourafas dot com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 5 22:52:57 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 20:52:57 -0700 Subject: 68000 winnt Message-ID: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> > and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? Not possible. NT required a little-endian processor. A PPC version existed. The processor was in little-endian mode to run it. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 22:56:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 20:56:38 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com>, <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net>, <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <46156286.7779.31196470@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2007 at 19:36, r.stricklin wrote: > I don't think there was ever a 68000 version of NT, even under > consideration. The initial development target was i860. When it > became obvious that wasn't going to work out, efforts went to... I don't think 68K was ever a target. PPC and MIPS certainly were, however. It could be that by the time of NT's release, the 68K architecture was already considered to be pass?. I do recall that NEC 980x was also one of the x86 targets. I've got SDKs and DDKs for all releases of NT from 3.1 up through XP (after which I lost interest). That includes international versions of the same. I really liked NT 3.51 and NT 4.0. Pretty darned stable and not too bloated. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 5 23:57:00 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 20:57:00 -0800 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> Message-ID: At 11:02 PM -0400 4/5/07, John Kourafas wrote: >Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen >both the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think >is crazy... A Micropolis 1325 MFM drive is a DEC RD53. The reason they go for so much is because there are systems still in commercial use that need these drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 23:20:09 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:20:09 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704052120p24856000h525a2329520d279e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/5/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Let's see NT supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and what was the other > family? PowerPC They all got dumped out in the hallways and hauled away when support was dropped. -Glen From bear at typewritten.org Thu Apr 5 23:32:16 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:32:16 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote > Let's see NT supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and what was the other > family? I want to say the 4th family was something from Sony, but > can't remember. Except for x86 the other three were basically one > vendor support I think (granted Alpha was a couple others). NT 3.51 added support for PowerPC. ok bear From pechter at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 23:41:53 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 00:41:53 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: I thought it was an Intel 860... or something like that. On 4/5/07, r.stricklin wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > > > Don't think so. > > . . . and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? > > > > Was there a "deal" for mutual suppression? > > I don't think there was ever a 68000 version of NT, even under > consideration. The initial development target was i860. When it > became obvious that wasn't going to work out, efforts went to... > > I have a Fall '93 developer preview of NT 3.1 which has some text > files in the SDK which describe this piece of history. I was just > going to check if it wasn't the MC88000 that was briefly considered > as the primary target after i860, but before MIPS R4000 (which I > recall being the primary target for most of the development phase > before the first efforts to bring it up on ia32), but I seem to have > temporarily misplaced the disc. > > ok > bear > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From pechter at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 23:42:57 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 00:42:57 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: Whoa... that's what I get while posting while sleeping. I thought after the i860 was the NT for Mips and then Alpha. Bill On 4/6/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I thought it was an Intel 860... or something like that. > > On 4/5/07, r.stricklin wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 5, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > >> Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > > > > > Don't think so. > > > . . . and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? > > > > > > Was there a "deal" for mutual suppression? > > > > I don't think there was ever a 68000 version of NT, even under > > consideration. The initial development target was i860. When it > > became obvious that wasn't going to work out, efforts went to... > > > > I have a Fall '93 developer preview of NT 3.1 which has some text > > files in the SDK which describe this piece of history. I was just > > going to check if it wasn't the MC88000 that was briefly considered > > as the primary target after i860, but before MIPS R4000 (which I > > recall being the primary target for most of the development phase > > before the first efforts to bring it up on ia32), but I seem to have > > temporarily misplaced the disc. > > > > ok > > bear > > > > > > -- > -- > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > pechter-at-gmail.com -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From trag at io.com Thu Apr 5 23:54:18 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 23:54:18 -0500 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <200704060400.l363xJSo005412@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704060400.l363xJSo005412@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 20:57:00 -0800 >From: "Zane H. Healy" >At 11:02 PM -0400 4/5/07, John Kourafas wrote: >>Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen >>both the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think >>is crazy... > >A Micropolis 1325 MFM drive is a DEC RD53. The reason they go for so >much is because there are systems still in commercial use that need >these drives. > >Zane For what it's worth the ST506 was stock in some model of Packard Bell 80286 machines. So, if you run across any of those dinosaurs which have not been scrapped, crushed and melted, they could be a source. Back in the early 90's I upgraded our data entry staff's computers with new guts and the ST506 is what I was pulling out of them. If I had only known to hold on to the old drives... Jeff Walther From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 6 01:26:26 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:26:26 -0700 Subject: ST506 (ebay oriented reply) In-Reply-To: <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46156089.209@harrells.net> <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4615E812.2040201@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5 Apr 2007 at 16:48, info wrote: > > this one is a 20mb w/o RLL, ST-225 large numbers of them available for "buy it now" 270107361836 JCM Parts has a 4051 (40mb, I think) for $125. thereis a 4096 (80mb) for a huge amount which I won't even mention. Look for 'seagate mfm' or 'seagate rll' and you will hit a lot of drives. mfm and rll may hit other vendors. I didn't try for others. Perhaps substitute in ' "western digital" ' and mfm or rll to hit other drive, or micropolis, or other vendor of your choice, and you might hit something. miniscribe might hit from time to time as well, and is not too common a term. Since Seagate is still in business, you need to add a term on the search that will not hit the vast number of modern drives. BTW if anyone is interested, remove the single quotes above if using the search terms. double quotes are intended to force grouping of terms. Jim From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 6 06:01:56 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:01:56 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Apr 2007 17:08:46 PDT." <46158F8E.7020508@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200704061101.l36B1u3Y005446@mwave.heeltoe.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >I put all drives into racks fully assembled. Of course I use an >"equipment lift" that makes the job easy. I've been look for one - can you share which one you've used? those 14" drives are damn heavy :-) -brad From cc at corti-net.de Fri Apr 6 03:54:01 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:54:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. It wasn't a big problem, a RK05 isn't that heavy. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Fri Apr 6 04:11:57 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <46155630.3010800@gmail.com> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <46155630.3010800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. >> >> Yeah, I felt a shooting pain in my groin just looking at that drawing. I >> sure hope two people were involved! > > Possibly more. It can be problematic for two people to get an RK05 to go > into a space *halfway* up a rack, let alone all the way up there. Besides, the cabinet is only 1,80m tall, and I've also mounted several RK05s in other cabinets in different positions alone, and no, I'm not Arnold ;-)) You may be thinking of a HP7905 or DEC RA80, now these are different beasts... (we had the RA80 pushed into a shelf at about 2,0m high, and also pulled it out again when we had to move to our new building four years ago, and we were only two) Christian From cc at corti-net.de Fri Apr 6 04:15:13 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:15:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <46156089.209@harrells.net> References: <46156089.209@harrells.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, info wrote: > Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but > can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg or > larger. Thanks Well, a ST506 has a capacity of only 5MB (and no buffered seeks). I think you are looking for a ST412 interface compatible drive. Christian From dasbooterror at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 04:47:19 2007 From: dasbooterror at gmail.com (Joshua Benedetto) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 05:47:19 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS Message-ID: <21e211710704060247h1e5e8d24g21e61df40191cf6c@mail.gmail.com> > Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > Curt > >To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to >developers. > >OTOH, Rhapsody with the classic Mac OS interface was seeded. I forget if it >was DR2 or DR3 that first sported the Aqua interface, and the first >Developer release or two only ran on x86 boxes. The "Prelude to Rhapsody" >release first given out an the WWDC and then sent to developers was stock >OPENSTEP 4.2 and while intended to run on x86 could apparently also be >loaded on NeXT 68k systems as well as the correct HP PA-RISC or Sun Sparc >systems. > >One of these days I'd really like to boot OPENSTEP on a Sparc 5. It should >just be a matter of finding the time. Which translates to finding an >actual reason to make the time. :^) > > Zane Incorrect, If you look at some of the less scrupulous segments of the web you can find a copy of OSX that runs on x86 For example check out http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page As a warning if you are planning on actually obtaining a copy somehow, it will be a DVD sized image (think about 4GB) -Josh From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Apr 6 07:18:02 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:18:02 -0400 Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? Message-ID: Thanks to Dave McGuire and Julian Wolfe and helpful responses from many people on this list, I now have a BA23 box with the following configuration: M8190 KDJ11-B CPU M7551 MSV11-Q 4mb memory M7555 RQDX3 M8043 DLV11-J RX33 floppy (temporarily stolen from a DECmate III+) RD54 The system starts up and passes the memory test and drops me into the boot code so I think it is working correctly. I also have an Emulex ESDI controller and some ESDI drives as well as a Viking SCSI controller but I'm trying to get the system up with just the RQDX3 first. My question is, can anyone point me to an RX33 (or RX50) disk image I can use with putr to create an XXDP boot floppy for this system so that I can test and format the RD54? Thanks! David From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 6 04:02:49 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:02:49 +0200 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: References: <20070405001745.2ef80dad@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <20070406110249.2df3efbf@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:00:44 -0600 Richard wrote: > Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Yes. It came from a Sun 3 or Sun 4 together with three Fujitsu Eagles. Fortunately there is someone who will take the Eagles. I also saw a configuration like this on a MicroVAX 3800. > These things are big and they are heavy, but entire factories can be > shipped around if you're willing to spend the bucks :-). Sure, shipping is possible in theory. But most likely it will require somthing like mounting the thing on a pallet and - more important - someone who wants to pay all the money that that shipping takes. I don't expect to find a person who is willing to spend all that money. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 6 05:10:13 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 03:10:13 -0700 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46161C85.4030407@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > > and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? > > Not possible. > > NT required a little-endian processor. > > A PPC version existed. The processor was in little-endian mode to run it. > also alpha and ia64 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 6 06:32:35 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:32:35 +0100 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net><009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4614BD54.1070100@dunnington.plus.com> <002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2007 03:05, Jay West wrote: > The plot thickens.... > > 1) I took tony's suggestion and disconnected the AC on both RX02 spindle > motors from the back. The problem still occurs so it's not the RX02 > spindle motors. > > 2) I extended the RX02 on the rails and looked underneath. There is a > metal plate bolted under each drive. I believe it's steel, it's that > burnished "gold" colored metal. That sounds more like the normal aluminium alloy, anodised gold. There's very little steel in an RX02. There is a separate flat plate under > each drive, and the plate L's up the side about 3/4 of an inch. I > believe this is properly closed. That sounds just like mine. > 3) I put that steel plate between the RL02 and RX02 again and sure > enough the problem disappears. [ ... ] > Also interesting - based on the depth difference between the RX02 > and RL02, no part of the RX02 extends over that part of the RL02 EXCEPT > the black "wedge" fan housing and fan on the back. The PSU, and particularly the big transformer, is just in front of this :-) So it could be a magnetic problem, which the alloy plates don't do anything to alleviate, but your steel does. > 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the > top of the RX02. Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the top, except for one in a tabletop case, of course; and the drawings don't show anything of the sort. I can't see how you'd fasten any sort of top cover. > 5) The problem with the right drive - I forgot to check this closely, > but I am fairly sure that drive spins. But if you put a boot disk in it > (that works fine in the left drive) the heads will drop and lift over > and over with about 2 or 3 seconds between each drop/lift cycle. It'll > do this till I halt the processor. Does the disk itself actually rotate? Is the collet OK? Is the index sensor OK? Cable for the head properly connected? When you do this, does *anything* -- even junk, or a load of zeros -- get loaded into the bottom of memory? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 03:43:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 04:43:06 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <4616081A.6060809@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:36 PM -0700 4/5/07, r.stricklin wrote: >> I have a Fall '93 developer preview of NT 3.1 which has some text >> files in the SDK which describe this piece of history. I was just >> going to check if it wasn't the MC88000 that was briefly considered as >> the primary target after i860, but before MIPS R4000 (which I recall >> being the primary target for most of the development phase before the >> first efforts to bring it up on ia32), but I seem to have temporarily >> misplaced the disc. > > Let's see NT supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and what was the other family? > I want to say the 4th family was something from Sony, but can't > remember. Except for x86 the other three were basically one vendor > support I think (granted Alpha was a couple others). There was PowerPC at some time or another too. Peace... Sridhar From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 6 03:57:16 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:57:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Basic Four computer Message-ID: <11021.195.114.232.202.1175849836.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> A guy on a Dutch marketplace website is offering a Basic Four computer. De description reads 'Baisc Four computer, complete with monitor, printer, cabling, documentation and a box of tapes.' Link to the ad is http://computer-hardware.marktplaats.nl/sun-unix-en-sgi/86263921-basic-four-computer.html Not affiliated in anyway. Ed From segin2005 at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 04:38:54 2007 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin Noname) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 05:38:54 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <461502C1.9040204@atarimuseum.com> <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5a4d65ae0704060238q16c01c47ue5f352b69ca540f6@mail.gmail.com> Should be noted that somewhere on the Spansih language secion of the Apple website, the original MacOS X Server release has screenshots using the OS 8 theme. On 4/5/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > > > Curt > > To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to > developers. > > OTOH, Rhapsody with the classic Mac OS interface was seeded. I forget if it > was DR2 or DR3 that first sported the Aqua interface, and the first > Developer release or two only ran on x86 boxes. The "Prelude to Rhapsody" > release first given out an the WWDC and then sent to developers was stock > OPENSTEP 4.2 and while intended to run on x86 could apparently also be > loaded on NeXT 68k systems as well as the correct HP PA-RISC or Sun Sparc > systems. > > One of these days I'd really like to boot OPENSTEP on a Sparc 5. It should > just be a matter of finding the time. Which translates to finding an > actual reason to make the time. :^) > > Zane > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Apr 6 07:36:18 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:36:18 +0200 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488379@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: vrijdag 6 april 2007 10:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Wow... that RK05 must have been fun to get up there. > > It wasn't a big problem, a RK05 isn't that heavy. > > Christian Agreed! I have an RK05/f and an RK05/j in the top 2 positions of the H960 rack. No, I did not put them there alone :-) Up till the 4th position (from the ground) I can do by myself. It is just getting the slide part of the RK05 drive aligned to the slide part in the rack that makes the task "heavy". happy Easter, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From info at harrells.net Fri Apr 6 08:09:15 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 09:09:15 -0400 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46156089.209@harrells.net> <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> I need or should use a MFM drive. I know the RLL drives used a better recording surface to get more data in the same size but the controller is a MFM st506 from a Cromemco 250 system so it only knows MFM. I guess I could use a RLL drive and low level format it but I don't remember if that caused problems or not. Thanks Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Apr 2007 at 16:48, info wrote: > > >> Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but >> can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg >> or larger. Thanks >> > > I'm confused. Do you mean a drive with an ST412 interface and not > an actual ST506 (5MB unbuffered seek) drive? There should be some of > those kicking around, surely. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Apr 6 08:18:10 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:18:10 +0200 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848837A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Pete wrote > Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the > top, except for one in a tabletop case, of course; and the > drawings don't show anything of the sort. I can't see how > you'd fasten any sort of top cover. I have RX02's rack-mounted with a top cover. However, the top cover is *not* attached to the RX02 drive. It is separately mounted just above the drive in the rack by 2 standard screws at each side to the vertical post. Sort of "dust cover". - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 6 08:25:08 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:25:08 -0500 Subject: Basic Four computer References: <11021.195.114.232.202.1175849836.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001c01c7784f$016a4640$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ed wrote.... > De description reads 'Baisc Four computer, complete with monitor, printer, > cabling, documentation and a box of tapes.' > > Link to the ad is > http://computer-hardware.marktplaats.nl/sun-unix-en-sgi/86263921-basic-four-computer.html Sweet... always kinda sorta half-way wanted one of those :) Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 6 10:42:24 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:42:24 -0700 Subject: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 Message-ID: <46166A60.4050803@bitsavers.org> > Also any spare parts from these systems. Watch eBay. there have been a bunch of these dumped onto the market there recently. There is a group at the Computer History Museum who were ex Convergent Tech folks trying to find docs and software as well for this family of systems. Sadly, very little has surfaced. There is a book called "Exploring CTOS" that you may be able to find. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4011/ has a bit of info as well From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 6 17:03:58 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 15:03:58 -0700 Subject: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 Message-ID: <4616C3CE.4020209@bitsavers.org> I picked up one of the terminal units for the Computer Museum and just took at look at whats inside. It is a repackaged Burroughs B25, which is, as you noted, a Convergent 80186 system. I'd be interested in seeing pics of the insides of the main server unit. Convergent OEMed this stuff to lots of people. I think the Microdata 1000 may be one as well. I found one of a five disc set today for what appears to be CTOS rel 9.1-D for the 1000. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 6 17:06:02 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 18:06:02 -0400 Subject: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? Message-ID: <0JG300IXCJYDPZH7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? > From: Brad Parker > Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:59:57 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Just curious, "back in the day" I touched a *lot* of 3 1/2" ST412 style >drives, mostly 10mb and 20mb. > >But these days I never see them. All the drives I see on ebay and elsewhere >are 5 1/4" monsters. I still have a few of them. Most are the 10mb and 20mb size making them handy to keep. The ST225 was a great drive but the st251 was a thermal nightmare. As a result any 225 is likely good and most 251s are likely bad(unless NOS or low time). My favorite st412 interface drive is the Quantum D540 (31mb 5.25 FH) also know as DEC RD52. I must have ten or more and they all work well. as drive of that style go it was fast and near unbreakable. > >Any idea why? I'd love to have a handful of 20mb 3 1/2" drives to use >for various things but I never see them. > >I'm talking about drives from Rodime, Seagate, Lapine, etc... cerca 1985. Most were unreliable, Miniscribe comes to mind. I have a few But use them and they work fine but I had to trash a pile of them to get a few good ones (when they were new!!!) and the ones that were good stayed that way. I likely have one of the largest assortments of ST506/412 drives from my first ST506 (5mb) to Maxtor2190 many still in use. That does not include the IDE piles and scsi piles. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 15:27:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:27:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070405144623.066e6e78@mail> from "John Foust" at Apr 5, 7 02:57:11 pm Message-ID: > > At 12:38 PM 4/5/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > >The chip is a 16 pin DIL package marked with the HP house-number > >1858-0054. That's not in my equivalents list. The chip seems to have been > >made by RCA, and tracing the connections to it show that 2 of the pins > >are grounded, but none of them go to any power line. I susepct it's a > >transistor array, therefore (HP1585-xxxx numbers tend to be transistor > >arrays too). > > Yes, the Google shows an Aligent document naming it as a transistor > array, but alas no pin-out. It looks like Harris/Intersil and RCA > made them, too. Thanks to all who replied.. I got a private e-mail pointing me to an Agilent schematic that used that device. Said scehamtic gave me the pinout and the functionality -- it's 5 independant transistors, 3 NPN and 2 PNP. The remaining connection (16 pin DIL package, 5*3 connections to the tranistors) is the substrate. Most of my guesses had been correct. I'd identified emitters and collectors of the 2 NPN transistors that were used, and, actually, I'd found the bases too. The 3 unusued-in-the-9816 connections were the 3rd NPN transsitor. But I'd not worked out the PNP transistors. Partly because I'd made the stupid assumption that they'd all be NPN and secondly because the parasitic diodes were confusing my measurements. Anyway, having got a pinout, I looked at Digchip and did a search for transistor arrays. There was one RCA number that was described as a mixed NPN/PNP transistor array, so I looked at the datasheet. The pinout matches. So, the answer to my original question is CA3096. It may be a selected one (although I doubt it, at least ont in the 9816, the reset circuit doesn't look that critical). But it's the same pinout, etc. Thanks again to all who helped -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 15:35:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:35:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver In-Reply-To: <251265.65185.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 5, 7 05:07:53 pm Message-ID: > > Ahem, what is a Cat printer? There was a printer > specifically made for it? But yes that is great news. > Umm, has anyone opened up their Cat? I'm curious how > much proprietary logic is hidden therein. Despite the > taunts and jeers from certain people on this list...no > names Tony Duell, I haven't had the time to play with > mine much :( Eh? What are you refering to here? I can't remember ever seriously flaming somebody for not looking at a classic computer much. Heck, I've got a few machines here I've not looked at since I got them -- and one of them is an HP2100A (!). One day, OK... Mind you, I _have_ pulled all the boards from that machine and looked at them. Gettting back to the Cat, that's one machine I would like, but have little chance of dinding at a pice I can contemplate paying. Oh well... I'd be interested in knowing more about the insides too. Until them, I'll play with the other sort of cat (you know, the combined mousetrap, bed warmer and alarm clock). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 15:38:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:38:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: <4615916E.6050100@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 5, 7 07:16:46 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Are you in England at the moment? If so, I could probably be convinced to > > snail-mail you a copy of the page from the Techref. > > Now sorted out, but thanks anyway (email burp meant I couldn't reply to say I > now have it). Ta to those who offered... I had a quick look in my techrefs last night... The printer port on the MDA card and the separate printer adapter are much the same logically, but there are differences in the actual implementation. For example, the MDA card inverts some of the status lines from the printer using '04 NOT gates. The printer adapter uses '86 XOR gates (XORs the siangl wirh '1', basically), presuably because they needed an XOR gate to selectively invert one of the address lines to give the 1st/2nd adapter address selection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 15:30:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:30:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: <001601c777c5$5e532b40$0103a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at Apr 5, 7 10:59:52 pm Message-ID: > > Tony > > The following link should bring you further, the component is mentioned 2 > times and drawed in one of the diagrams. > http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5950EN.pdf Thanks! That's what gave it away to me (and this message is the one I incorrected refered to as 'private e-mail' in my last posting to the list. > It's a transistor array with 5 NPN's on it. Err, no. It's 3 NPNs and 2 PNPs. Which makes sense in the 9816 too. Since I'm going to be using this iufo in a diagram on the HPCC schemaitcs CD-ROM in theend, I would be happy to give you a (small) acknowledgement for the help you've given if you want it. Just let me know how you want me to refer to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 15:43:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:43:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 5, 7 09:05:21 pm Message-ID: > > The plot thickens.... > > 1) I took tony's suggestion and disconnected the AC on both RX02 spindle > motors from the back. The problem still occurs so it's not the RX02 spindle > motors. Thgat suprises me, but you can't argue with the results. > > 2) I extended the RX02 on the rails and looked underneath. There is a metal > plate bolted under each drive. I believe it's steel, it's that burnished > "gold" colored metal. There is a separate flat plate under each drive, and > the plate L's up the side about 3/4 of an inch. I believe this is properly > closed. Yes. That's the correct underside covers for an RX02. > > 3) I put that steel plate between the RL02 and RX02 again and sure enough > the problem disappears. This time I tried moving the plate around to > localize exactly what on the RL02 must be covered to keep the problem from > occuring. This may be telltale. The portion of the drive that needs to be > covered by the metal plate to keep the problem from occuring is the top back > cover of the RL02. This is the plastic section that is about 8 inches deep > front to back, and is exactly over the drive logic board. Interesting that > this would mean the plate isn't covering the heads. Also interesting - based > on the depth difference between the RX02 and RL02, no part of the RX02 > extends over that part of the RL02 EXCEPT the black "wedge" fan housing and > fan on the back. I assume you've tried disconencting the fan temporarily (the RS02 will not overheat that quickly). THere were several types of fan used, most RX's have a normal 'muffin fan', but I've seen one with a strange thing with a small shanded-pole motor on brackets. > > 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the top of > the RX02. I do not have this cover. I have what I was TOLD is the top cover > of the RX02, but there's no way it could possibly fit over the top. I know > that a rackmounted RX02 doesn't have a nice finished metal cover, but I do > think there is some type of metal cover that is supposed to be on top. I > wouldn't have thought this to be so germane to the problem, because the > problem is definitely "down and to the rear" from the RX02. There's a U-shapped metal cover that mounts _separately_ in the rack (it screws to the front uprights of the rack. When you pull the RX02 out, the cover stays behind (ovviosuly) so you can easilly work on the RX02. -tony From bear at typewritten.org Fri Apr 6 15:59:50 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:59:50 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <46167F95.6020600@atarimuseum.com> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> <46167F95.6020600@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <547BB4E0-5C40-4F71-82BB-7D8CA1DD33E7@typewritten.org> On Apr 6, 2007, at 10:12 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > WinNT was also available on AS/400's as I recall. I know Novell > was too. Yeah, but only with the PC Integrated Server option, which was basically a separate pentium PC on a PCI card, a la the SunPC or Apple DOS Compatibility Card. I hardly think that counts. ok bear From bear at typewritten.org Fri Apr 6 16:08:30 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:08:30 -0700 Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor In-Reply-To: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2007, at 10:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member > which includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. > We've just been setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious > question arises... Dang, I'm jealous. I've been looking for a 5080 attachment adapter for RT, PS/2 or RS/6000 for a while now. > My *assumption* is that one of these outputs (and the breakout box > came with a coax cable already hooked up to BNC #1) links to the > BNC input on the back of the 5085, forming the comms channel > between the 8085 and the RT. Your assumption is correct. You'll probably want the RT PC Options Installation manual off my site: http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/ What you probably have is the S/370 Host Interface Adapter, which operates similarly in principle to the later, MCA version for PS/2 or RS/6000. I don't think it matters which BNC connector you use. ok bear From bear at typewritten.org Fri Apr 6 16:13:07 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:13:07 -0700 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Ensor wrote: > What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? Windows NT for PowerPC supports any CHRP machine, in theory, though in practice it's a bit more limited than that. I've run it on the IBM Sandalfoot (PowerPersonal, not exactly an RS/6000), ThinkPad PowerPC, and Motorola PowerStack. I think I've heard of it also running on the 7025-F50, but don't quote me on it. http://www.typewritten.org/Media/Images/winnt-4.0-ppc-new.install.gif It's a pointless exercise as there really isn't any software available for it. ok bear From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 6 11:59:57 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:59:57 -0400 Subject: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? In-Reply-To: Message from info of "Fri, 06 Apr 2007 09:09:15 EDT." <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> Message-ID: <200704061659.l36Gxvtw030279@mwave.heeltoe.com> Just curious, "back in the day" I touched a *lot* of 3 1/2" ST412 style drives, mostly 10mb and 20mb. But these days I never see them. All the drives I see on ebay and elsewhere are 5 1/4" monsters. Any idea why? I'd love to have a handful of 20mb 3 1/2" drives to use for various things but I never see them. I'm talking about drives from Rodime, Seagate, Lapine, etc... cerca 1985. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 6 16:32:35 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:32:35 -0400 Subject: rack me, 11/34 style Message-ID: <200704062132.l36LWZCe020434@mwave.heeltoe.com> Following Jay's excellent lead, I bought the 'correct' rack slides for my 11/34 a few months ago. Today I took some time and put the 11/34 in the rack. The best part was tilting it 90 degrees to get access to the backplane! woo hoo! nerd heaven! Oddly, when I rotated it I heard a strange metal tinlking/clinking. hmmm... took bottom off and found a metal circular key wedged in the bottom wires. now *that* could have caused some problems! wonder what it's for. the 11/34 has no key. anyway, thanks for the inspiration jay! -brad From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Apr 6 16:04:24 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:04:24 -0700 Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? References: Message-ID: <000301c7788f$287a7940$0201a8c0@hal9000> Tony, Second time is a charm... Your part ( HP P/N 1858-0054 ) exactly matches an Intersil CA3096 pin-for-pin. Three NPN and two PNP transistor array in a 16 pin DIP. Pin 16 is the substrate. If you need a PDF of the datasheet you need only ask. Best regards, Happy Easter, Steven Canning From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 6 10:22:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:22:37 -0700 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4616034D.13342.338D6B4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2007 at 12:32, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That sounds more like the normal aluminium alloy, anodised gold. > There's very little steel in an RX02. It could also be chromated steel, very common as a structural component in electronics gear. A small permanent magnet will cinch the identity. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 6 14:23:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070406121757.F99856@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > > and what about the 68000 version of Windoze NT? > Not possible. > NT required a little-endian processor. > A PPC version existed. The processor was in little-endian mode to run it. Ah, that explains it. A Microsoft "technical" bimbo at a presentation said, "NT is 95% portable C code, we even have a 68000 version running on a Mac, but no immediate plans to release it." He was obviously clueless, but he might have been part right. And, if it really were "portable code", then it wouldn't be an impossible project to recompile a big-endian version. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 6 15:16:05 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:16:05 +0100 Subject: 68000 winnt References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > A PPC version existed.... What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? TTFN - Pete. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 6 12:12:53 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:12:53 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <46167F95.6020600@atarimuseum.com> WinNT was also available on AS/400's as I recall. I know Novell was too. Curt Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:36 PM -0700 4/5/07, r.stricklin wrote: >> I have a Fall '93 developer preview of NT 3.1 which has some text >> files in the SDK which describe this piece of history. I was just >> going to check if it wasn't the MC88000 that was briefly considered >> as the primary target after i860, but before MIPS R4000 (which I >> recall being the primary target for most of the development phase >> before the first efforts to bring it up on ia32), but I seem to have >> temporarily misplaced the disc. > > Let's see NT supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and what was the other > family? I want to say the 4th family was something from Sony, but > can't remember. Except for x86 the other three were basically one > vendor support I think (granted Alpha was a couple others). > > Zane > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 6 11:27:02 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:27:02 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update Message-ID: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca> I just discovered a flaw in my DMA setup sequence which exposes a timing window during which bus noise can cause false dma events (DMA enabled but FDC not driving it yet), leading to ImageDisk not working correctly in some PCs. I have corrected this (with the help of a couple of very knowlegeable list members - thanks guys!), and released an updated ImageDisk 1.16 with the fix. I have also updated the source code archive to include the new TESTFDC and .TD0 conversion utilities. Enjoy, Dave PS: I found this while fooling with and old 486 because I finally decided to see if I could get my Central Point DEluxe Options Board working - the TRANSCOPY that I had for it wouldn't run at all (froze during the analyze phase), but I downloaded one from the net which does, but I have been unsuccessful in actually recording and recreating a plain-jane DOS DD 360k disk - I've gotten it to complete the motions a couple of times but the result has errors in it. This is a 486/25 (slowest I could make it) - does anyone know if the CTP board will work reliably, or do I need to go slower... Any other common causes of problems...? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 6 09:49:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:49:17 -0700 Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver In-Reply-To: <251265.65185.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M > > Ahem, what is a Cat printer? There was a printer >specifically made for it? But yes that is great news. > Umm, has anyone opened up their Cat? I'm curious how >much proprietary logic is hidden therein. Despite the >taunts and jeers from certain people on this list...no >names Tony Duell, I haven't had the time to play with >mine much :( > ---snip--- Hi Chris I believe there was a printer called Canon Cat as well, as in my searches, I've seen adds for printer supplies. It may have been part of a series. Still, the only other reference I've seen talks about the computer. As for looking in side, I've had my cover off to replace the battery. When inside, I don't recall any hardware that one would specifically call propietary. I suspect the phone modem may have a non-standard chip or two. The address decoding may have a PLA or such but other than that I wouldn't expect too much special circuits. Remember, the design was done by a group here in the USA and then produced in Japan. It wouldn't make much sense to tie it to hard to get parts. If anyone wants to see me making a fool of myself, Bruce had me do a short video that he posted on the Digibarn site. He also posted my Cat notes, that includes the driver for the HP printer. When looking at the notes, his software collapsed the indenting I'd placed in much of the code. It also looks like it had taken out some of the in line spaces. Things like [ ' came out looking like [' . In Forth, [ and ' are separate words and need the space to separate them. I suppose that anyone typing it in would hit the compile errors and fix these things. Using the editor that was the main function of the Cat would be the way to go. When loading from the editor and there is a compile error, when returning to the editor, it would stop at the location of the error. I've only found two application disk so far. Both of these have Forth locked out such that one can't enter the HP code. I'm hoping that I can find a way to get back in on these disk. You have to remember that, on the Cat, the entire RAM image goes with the disk, including any drivers. This means that on a disk with data, one needs to find a way into the Forth interpreter/compiler. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 6 10:00:41 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:00:41 -0700 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 5 Apr 2007 at 16:48, info wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled but > > can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is 40Meg > > or larger. Thanks > >I'm confused. Do you mean a drive with an ST412 interface and not >an actual ST506 (5MB unbuffered seek) drive? There should be some of >those kicking around, surely. > Hi The ST251 is the most common at 40meg but there are a lot of ST225's out there. I believe these are both ST412 interface. There was a difference in how the compensation was handled between the ST506 and ST412 but other than that, it should work OK. One may need to cut the wire going to the compensation of the drive. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Apr 6 08:32:16 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:32:16 -0600 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <4616081A.6060809@gmail.com> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070405175344.S62613@shell.lmi.net> <2E0D3B3C-88DC-468B-A764-B503E07672C0@typewritten.org> <4616081A.6060809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46164BE0.6080500@e-bbes.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Let's see NT supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and what was the other >> family? I want to say the 4th family was something from Sony, but >> can't remember. Except for x86 the other three were basically one >> vendor support I think (granted Alpha was a couple others). > > There was PowerPC at some time or another too. It still is. XBOX360 ;-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 08:30:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:30:50 -0400 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4614BD54.1070100@dunnington.plus.com> <002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the > > top of the RX02. > > Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the top, except > for one in a tabletop case, of course; and the drawings don't show > anything of the sort. I can't see how you'd fasten any sort of top cover. I've seen an aluminum "cover" for RX02s - more of a nut/bolt shield than a real cover. It mounts to the rack and stays behind when you extend the RX02. I think it's just there to ensure debris from further up the rack doesn't land on the back of the bare circuit board in the RX02 and cause a short. My memory of them (the few times I've seen one installed) is that it's gold-anodized aluminum. It doesn't make a tight fit with the vertical surfaces of the RX02 frame, so I doubt it's an effective EMI shield. If I find one in one of my racks, I'll take a picture, but it's hardly an essential item. Most drives I've seen probably never had one. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 08:59:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:59:40 -0400 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848837A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848837A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Pete wrote > > Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the > > top, except for one in a tabletop case, of course; and the > > drawings don't show anything of the sort. I can't see how > > you'd fasten any sort of top cover. > > I have RX02's rack-mounted with a top cover. > However, the top cover is *not* attached to the RX02 drive. > It is separately mounted just above the drive in the rack > by 2 standard screws at each side to the vertical post. > Sort of "dust cover". That matches the description of what I've seen, too. Keeps out dust and dropped screws, but doesn't block much EMI. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 09:00:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:00:52 -0400 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> References: <46156089.209@harrells.net> <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, info wrote: > I need or should use a MFM drive. I know the RLL drives used a better > recording surface to get more data in the same size but the controller > is a MFM st506 from a Cromemco 250 system so it only knows MFM. I guess > I could use a RLL drive and low level format it but I don't remember if > that caused problems or not. Thanks Formatting an RLL-certified drive with an MFM controller should not cause any hassles - just a loss of capacity compared to the RLL format. An ST238R formats just fine as an ST225. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 16:13:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 17:13:45 -0400 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: References: <46151C51.3070209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > There are minor differences, mainly due to the fact that the MDA card's > printer port is at a different address (you can have the MDA card _and_ 2 > printer adapters in the same machine). That's handy to know - every once in a while, I long for a machine with 2 or 3 parallel adapters, for things like old Connectix cameras, LCD displays and the like. I've never assembled an ISA machine with more than one printer adapter. I know that it really doesn't matter to your own code what the I/O address is, but I wasn't sure how flexible the underlying hardware might be to being assigned to alternate addresses. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 6 10:46:28 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: VCF East 4.0 lodging info Message-ID: <33942.65.126.154.6.1175874388.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Hi all, Some of you asked me for VCF East hotel info. We now have a room block at the Courtyard Tinton Falls, for the evenings of Friday, June 8 and Saturday, June 9. The address is 600 Hope Rd., Tinton Falls, N.J., just down the street from last year's hotel. The Courtyard is much nicer, however it's also pricier -- single rooms are $159 per night. Unfortunately the much cheaper Holiday Inn which we used last year is booked already (wedding season, beach season), as are similar local places. Full details are at http://www.vintage.org/2007/east/lodging.php ... make sure you ask for the Vintage Computer Festival rate. - Evan PS - I'm signing the contract tonight so wait until Monday. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Apr 6 13:15:01 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:15:01 -0500 Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401c77877$7e56fd60$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> You can create XXDP floppies with the PUTR program and a DOS box, but I'm not sure exactly how you go about making them bootable and such - as far as the diagnostics files go, once the image file is created you just copy them over within PUTR to the image. I think what you need is covered in the PUTR documentation. You will need a high density (1.2MB) 5.25" diskette drive and double density floppies to do this. High density floppies will not work for RX50 diskettes. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 7:18 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? > > Thanks to Dave McGuire and Julian Wolfe and helpful responses > from many people on this list, I now have a BA23 box with the > following > configuration: > > M8190 KDJ11-B CPU > M7551 MSV11-Q 4mb memory > M7555 RQDX3 > M8043 DLV11-J > > RX33 floppy (temporarily stolen from a DECmate III+) > RD54 > > The system starts up and passes the memory test and drops me > into the boot code so I think it is working correctly. > > I also have an Emulex ESDI controller and some ESDI drives as > well as a Viking SCSI controller but I'm trying to get the > system up with just the RQDX3 first. > > My question is, can anyone point me to an RX33 (or RX50) disk > image I can use with putr to create an XXDP boot floppy for > this system so that I can test and format the RD54? > > Thanks! > David > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 09:23:38 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:23:38 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <5a4d65ae0704060238q16c01c47ue5f352b69ca540f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <461502C1.9040204@atarimuseum.com> <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> <5a4d65ae0704060238q16c01c47ue5f352b69ca540f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0704060723i24324cd6g651b4d258213ce72@mail.gmail.com> The original MacOS X Server was a mutant OpenStep/MacOS hybrid, it looked like a MacOS 8/9 themed OpenStep. I actually kind of liked it, not as slick as the newer OSXes, but a bit more stable than the first couple of releases. I've seen the super-alpha of Copland floating around the net... On 4/6/07, Segin Noname wrote: > > Should be noted that somewhere on the Spansih language secion of the > Apple website, the original MacOS X Server release has screenshots > using the OS 8 theme. > > From rlane at maganclinic.com Fri Apr 6 12:07:17 2007 From: rlane at maganclinic.com (Ronnie Lane) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:07:17 -0700 Subject: DEC Manuals available Message-ID: <8B062B3779FAD642B3447E22ACE56961EE395E@mail-server.maganclinic.com> Hello. I was wondering if you still have the DEC LG01 operators guide available? It is model: Ek-OLG01-IN-003 Thanks, Ronnie Lane CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission may contain confidential and proprietary information intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and/or may contain information that is private, privileged, confidential, and disclosure of which is prohibited by applicable law (including, without limitation, the HIPAA Privacy Rule, 45 C.F.R parts 160 and 164.) If you have received this transmission in error, any disclosure, copying, distribution, downloading, uploading or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited, and you are requested to immediately notify the above sender by the above telephone or email address. If you are a patient, and do not wish to receive similar transmissions in the future, please immediately notify the above sender by the above telephone or email address. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 6 08:30:30 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:30:30 -0500 Subject: RX02 EMI? References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net><009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4614BD54.1070100@dunnington.plus.com><002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <001f01c7784f$c0752280$6700a8c0@BILLING> I had written... >> 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the top >> of the RX02. To which Pete replied... > Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the top, except for > one in a tabletop case, of course; and the drawings don't show anything of > the sort. I can't see how you'd fasten any sort of top cover. Actually, it was supposed to have one, and I just found the references to it it DEC manuals to prove it. Rackmount RX02's were shipped with a metal cover, which I have. This is not the same as a desktop metal cover which is an entirely different animal (which I also have). The trick is, this cover doesn't actually connect to the RX02! It is mounted into the H960 rack, such that when you slide the RL02 back into the rack it goes under the cover. See the RL02 user guide and where they talk about rackmounting they show it and describe how it is to be mounted. They also show it in the unpacking section. It is called a "dust cover". Now that I know what it is for and how it is mounted, I'll mount it in my rack :) > Does the disk itself actually rotate? Is the collet OK? Is the index > sensor OK? Cable for the head properly connected? When you do this, does > *anything* -- even junk, or a load of zeros -- get loaded into the bottom > of memory? I shall dig in to this in the next week or two and see. I'd rather not rerack the stuff, but if that is what I have to do to get the problem to go away.... Thanks! Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 6 08:33:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 06:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <21e211710704060247h1e5e8d24g21e61df40191cf6c@mail.gmail.com> from Joshua Benedetto at "Apr 6, 7 05:47:19 am" Message-ID: <200704061333.l36DXmrZ011792@floodgap.com> > Incorrect, If you look at some of the less scrupulous segments of the > web you can find a copy of OSX that runs on x86 x86 OS X != Star Trek. Star Trek was actually a port of *classic* Mac OS (probably System 7) to x86 and disappeared into the corporate graveyard ca. 1993, long before Rhapsody development was anything of consequence. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. --------------------- From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 09:09:36 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 07:09:36 -0700 Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704060709y772cf7a8u6ddcfe699f65ca5e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/07, David Betz wrote: > > My question is, can anyone point me to an RX33 (or RX50) disk image I > can use with putr to create an XXDP boot floppy for this system so > that I can test and format the RD54? > You should find a copy of xxdp25.rl02 or xxdp25.rl02.gz on the net so you can boot that under SIMH or E11 as an RL02. Also attach a new RX33 image which you can then initialize under XXDP and copy over the set of binaries you want to the RX33 image. That's how I built up a bootable RX33 XXDP image. -Glen From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 6 09:29:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 09:29:18 -0500 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200704051907.l35J7RBn001615@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? >> >>Curt > > > To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to > developers. It sure was. I saw Mac OS X running on a 233MHz Pentium II at one of our Seattle dev houses. This was back in 1999. Obtaining it was a matter of: 1. Asking about it 2. Getting a denial that it existed 3. A week later, an anonymous package in brown paper showed up with some unmarked CDs with no return address. I swear I am not making any of that up. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Fri Apr 6 09:36:21 2007 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: <200704060942.l369fYsk009262@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704060942.l369fYsk009262@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Just in case someone doesn't know this, you can look up any old HP part (and now Agilent) at: http://www.parts.agilent.com In some cases they will show a picture. If you lookup said part, you will find this: Part Number: 1858-0054 Description: Mod and Ser Nbr Reqd TRANSISTOR ARRAY 16-PIN PLSTC DIP Price: $10.25 Quantity on Hand: Item Status: Limited Supply - Contact Agilent Item Type: Agilent Qualified Part And, they list all products where they know it to be found. From pechter at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 10:44:10 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:44:10 -0400 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848837A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848837A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: The metal on top of the RX02 assembly is screwed to the rack. I think it's basically to keep things out of the power supply and off the contacts to the caps. It could also be an RF/EMI Shield. One guy in DEC Field Service neglected to screw it in one day and when I worked on the VAX I came in contact with it and the RX02 power supply on the 11/750. I'll never forget that. Bill On 4/6/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > Pete wrote > > Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the > > top, except for one in a tabletop case, of course; and the > > drawings don't show anything of the sort. I can't see how > > you'd fasten any sort of top cover. > > I have RX02's rack-mounted with a top cover. > However, the top cover is *not* attached to the RX02 drive. > It is separately mounted just above the drive in the rack > by 2 standard screws at each side to the vertical post. > Sort of "dust cover". > > - Henk. > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. > > Thank you for your co-operation. > > > > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 6 11:16:14 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 09:16:14 -0700 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <200704061101.l36B1u3Y005446@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200704061101.l36B1u3Y005446@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4616724E.3070807@shiresoft.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> I put all drives into racks fully assembled. Of course I use an >> "equipment lift" that makes the job easy. >> > > I've been look for one - can you share which one you've used? > > those 14" drives are damn heavy :-) > I'll have to look up who manufactured mine. It has a 500# capacity and can lift a load to about 12' or so. It's counterweighted (400# counterweight) so it doesn't need long stabilizing legs to keep it from tipping over (so I can get it right up to a rack). Places like Global (globalindustries.com) has stuff similar, but new they're $800-1000. I picked mine up used for ~$350 and it's been worth every $0.01 (I wish I had another one). -- TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 6 11:43:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <21e211710704060247h1e5e8d24g21e61df40191cf6c@mail.gmail.com> from "Joshua Benedetto" at Apr 06, 2007 05:47:19 AM Message-ID: <200704061643.l36Ghnnx028728@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > > > Curt > > > >To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to > >developers. > > > >OTOH, Rhapsody with the classic Mac OS interface was seeded. I forget if it > >was DR2 or DR3 that first sported the Aqua interface, and the first > >Developer release or two only ran on x86 boxes. The "Prelude to Rhapsody" > >release first given out an the WWDC and then sent to developers was stock > >OPENSTEP 4.2 and while intended to run on x86 could apparently also be > >loaded on NeXT 68k systems as well as the correct HP PA-RISC or Sun Sparc > >systems. > > > >One of these days I'd really like to boot OPENSTEP on a Sparc 5. It should > >just be a matter of finding the time. Which translates to finding an > >actual reason to make the time. :^) > > > > Zane > > > Incorrect, If you look at some of the less scrupulous segments of the > web you can find a copy of OSX that runs on x86 > > For example check out http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page > > As a warning if you are planning on actually obtaining a copy somehow, > it will be a DVD sized image (think about 4GB) > > -Josh What is incorrect? The question wasn't about Mac OS X, it was about Mac OS. The closest thing to Mac OS that ran native on Intel was the early Rhapsody releases. Rhapsody was later released as Mac OS X Server, and eventually Mac OS X 10.0. "Star Trek" was the code name for the port of System 7 to x86, and least I think that is the right version. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 6 11:57:27 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <5a4d65ae0704060238q16c01c47ue5f352b69ca540f6@mail.gmail.com> from "Segin Noname" at Apr 06, 2007 05:38:54 AM Message-ID: <200704061657.l36GvRtr029607@onyx.spiritone.com> > Should be noted that somewhere on the Spansih language secion of the > Apple website, the original MacOS X Server release has screenshots > using the OS 8 theme. Did Mac OS X Server get released prior to the switch to Aqua? It very likely did, I just don't remember as I didn't have a copy of the Server software. That would also put the switch to Aqua later than I remembered which is a distict possibility. Personally I still hate Aqua, and long for the classic look and feel. Though that does not stop me from using Mac OS X daily. :^) It is still better than the alternatives. Zane From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 6 12:32:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:32:03 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? Message-ID: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great if I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to test the card anyway :-/ PS: If anyone knows of any sources for the ADP50 or similarly functional 8-bit ISA IDE adapters, that would be much appreciated as well. Thanks! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 6 12:32:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:32:45 -0500 Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor Message-ID: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member which includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. We've just been setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious question arises... The 5085 has some sort of comms input ability on a BNC connector (and output on another BNC, but that's terminated). The RT has a little "breakout box" which hooks up to the 5085 link card on one side and has four BNC outputs on the other. My *assumption* is that one of these outputs (and the breakout box came with a coax cable already hooked up to BNC #1) links to the BNC input on the back of the 5085, forming the comms channel between the 8085 and the RT. However, it would be nice if someone can verify this! The RT documentation doesn't cover the 5085 link option (so far as I've found yet, anyway). The 5085 documentation doesn't cover it either (as it only details how to hook the 5085 up to the peripherals and then boot the hardware). Obviously I'm a little reluctant to go randomly plugging cables in, particularly as the breakout box has four BNCs on board - although it could well be that the RT 5085 link board was capable of driving up to four 5085 processors independently. Google seems to know almost nothing about the 5085 option :-( cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 12:49:49 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Silent 700) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:49:49 -0500 Subject: Cromemco program tape on ebay Message-ID: <51ea77730704061049u161b583fud3aae70fe9f5cd48@mail.gmail.com> Not mine, but thought it would be of interest to someone here, and hate to see it lost to the dumpster: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280099960981&rd=1&rd=1 From molists at yahoo.com Fri Apr 6 13:19:58 2007 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free to good home: Commodore 8032 in Los Angeles Message-ID: <484255.31348.qm@web43142.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> My closet is full, and its spring-cleaning time. This unit needs a fuse / fuseholder, but as I recall, it did boot when I jury-rigged one. It is a little scratched, and a couple keycaps are loose, but otherwise complete. Contact me off-list to arrange pickup. Regards, Mo ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Apr 6 13:35:25 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:35:25 -0400 Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461692ED.4020809@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: > Thanks to Dave McGuire and Julian Wolfe and helpful responses from > many people on this list, I now have a BA23 box with the following > configuration: > M8190 KDJ11-B CPU > M7551 MSV11-Q 4mb memory > M7555 RQDX3 > M8043 DLV11-J > RX33 floppy (temporarily stolen from a DECmate III+) > RD54 > The system starts up and passes the memory test and drops me into the > boot code so I think it is working correctly. > > I also have an Emulex ESDI controller and some ESDI drives as well as > a Viking SCSI controller but I'm trying to get the system up with > just the RQDX3 first. > > My question is, can anyone point me to an RX33 (or RX50) disk image I > can use with putr to create an XXDP boot floppy for this system so > that I can test and format the RD54? Jerome Fine replies: That is a very nice configuration. The ESDI drives will be much faster, as will the SCSI drives. They can also provide backup for each other if you produce any files that you want to save. To format the RD54 with the RQDX3 controller, you require the ZRQC?? (IIRC) format program. Probably somewhere on bitsavers or classiccmp under XXDP. If you can't find ZRQC??, someone else may know where an XXDP floppy image which contains ZRQC?? is located. It will probably be an RX50 image (which an RX33 drive can handle - best to keep it in WRITE PROTECT mode). I probably have it somewhere, so if you can't find it, bug me! If you need help running it, this is the place to ask! You can download the following CD image for all of the RT-11 binary releases up to V05.03 of RT-11. After you unzip the file, it has 4 RT-11 partitions. You can boot "RT11DV10.ISO" using the SIMH emulator or the E11 emulator as an MSCP device at unit 0. I STRONGLY recommend that you use RT11DV10.ISO as a READ ONLY device under both SIMH and E11! Under E11, the commands are: MOUNT DU0: RT11DV10.ISO/RONLY BOOT DU0: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/RT11DV10.ISO.zip If you are able to burn a CD-R, INCLUDING BLOCKS 0-63 (which are sectors 0-15 on a CD), you can also boot from a SCSI CD drive with unit 0 under E11 and using your PDP-11. I don't think that SIMH allows a CD to be used as a raw device. If you have RT-11 questions, please ask! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 6 15:52:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 16:52:27 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI > adapters by > model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? > > Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be > great if > I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard > drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it > doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to > test the card anyway :-/ I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They both work well and have onboard BIOSes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 6 18:41:51 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 19:41:51 -0400 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <46155630.3010800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070406234151.9ED2EBA4350@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Christian Corti wrote: > You may be thinking of a HP7905 or DEC RA80, now these are different > beasts... (we had the RA80 pushed into a shelf at about 2,0m high, and > also pulled it out again when we had to move to our new building four > years ago, and we were only two) The trick with RA80's (and Fuji Eagles, and other late 10.5"/14" Winchesters) is to pull the HDA from the box, mount the box in the rack, and THEN put the HDA in the box. Eagles and RA8x's are remarkably modular. You can also reasonably pull the power supply from the Eagle frame for even less weight (with the HDA and the PS out, it's mostly sheet metal and some framing...) Tim. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 20:10:32 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:10:32 -0500 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> Message-ID: <624966d60704061810x2935064dl15f4018d684bf8a0@mail.gmail.com> I have some 1355 drives, among others,but don't recall the difference. I am also having sys problems, so feel free to call me if you have any questions. Thanks, Paul 217-586-5361 On 4/5/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 11:02 PM -0400 4/5/07, John Kourafas wrote: > >Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen > >both the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think > >is crazy... > > A Micropolis 1325 MFM drive is a DEC RD53. The reason they go for so > much is because there are systems still in commercial use that need > these drives. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 6 11:07:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:07:10 -0600 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Apr 2007 15:14:53 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > On Apr 5, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Richard wrote: > >> Free for local pickup in Kaiserslautern Germany: > >> Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive, Pertec interface, 1600 and 6250 > >> bpi. > >> Excellent condition, 19" rack rails included. > > > > Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Sun > > even resold them under their brand for a while. > > I think you're thinking of the M2444. That's a damn fine tape drive. > Oh yes, you're right. I didn't notice 2442 vs 2444 until you pointed it out! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Apr 6 19:50:19 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 20:50:19 -0400 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> References: , <46156089.209@harrells.net> <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> Message-ID: <4616EACB.9000700@hawkmountain.net> info wrote: > I need or should use a MFM drive. I know the RLL drives used a better > recording surface to get more data in the same size but the controller > is a MFM st506 from a Cromemco 250 system so it only knows MFM. I > guess I could use a RLL drive and low level format it but I don't > remember if that caused problems or not. Thanks > While I've never done it, I'd imagine this would be OK. I know people who formatted MFM drives with RLL controllers. Most worked OK.. but I think some had problems longer term. -- Curt > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 5 Apr 2007 at 16:48, info wrote: >> >> >>> Does anyone know of a place to get a ST506 MFM drive? I have googled >>> but can't seem to located a new or pulled drive. I would one that is >>> 40Meg or larger. Thanks >>> >> >> I'm confused. Do you mean a drive with an ST412 interface and not >> an actual ST506 (5MB unbuffered seek) drive? There should be some of >> those kicking around, surely. >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> >> > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 6 20:52:39 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 20:52:39 -0500 Subject: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 In-Reply-To: <4616C3CE.4020209@bitsavers.org> References: <4616C3CE.4020209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4616F967.3010500@mdrconsult.com> Al Kossow wrote: > I picked up one of the terminal units for the Computer Museum > and just took at look at whats inside. It is a repackaged Burroughs > B25, which is, as you noted, a Convergent 80186 system. > > I'd be interested in seeing pics of the insides of the main > server unit. > > Convergent OEMed this stuff to lots of people. I think the > Microdata 1000 may be one as well. > > I found one of a five disc set today for what appears to be > CTOS rel 9.1-D for the 1000. I have a Convergent CP-001 (B26) that boots and runs great from the hard drive. I just don't have any passwords for either the OS or the court-reporting app it runs. I'd commit an unnatural act for the means to get root on the thing. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 6 21:02:31 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:02:31 -0500 Subject: RX02 EMI? problem found Message-ID: <002f01c778b8$cdc8c130$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It's the fan. No doubt about it, it's the fan in the back of the RX02 causing the RL02 to fault. I disconnected the fan and the RL02 no longer faults upon spinup. The moment I put the molex back on the fan of the RX02 - the RL02 immediately faults. I decided to take a closer look at this fan in the back of the RX02, so I took out the 4 screws and pulled off the plastic "wedge shaped" housing. The fan in there is one of those older odd-looking ones. Not sure how to describe it. Instead of your "normal" muffin fan where the windings are hard to see and they are around the hub... this is the kind where the fan hub sits on one side of a large rectangular hunk of iron? Steel? I dunno... big chunk of heavy metal :) Betcha if I replace that fan with the more normal kind I don't have such a problem. The current fan isn't noisy, works good... but I'm betting the huge coil on it is a problem. Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 6 21:16:20 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 19:16:20 -0700 Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver In-Reply-To: <251265.65185.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M > > Ahem, what is a Cat printer? There was a printer >specifically made for it? But yes that is great news. > Umm, has anyone opened up their Cat? I'm curious how >much proprietary logic is hidden therein. Despite the >taunts and jeers from certain people on this list...no >names Tony Duell, I haven't had the time to play with >mine much :( ---snip--- Hi I just was emailing Charlie Springer ( one of the Cat developers ) and he has a Cat printer to go with the Canon Cat. So, I guess there was such a thing. Bruce also fixed the missing spaces problem on the web page so things make more sense. For those that didn't get it, it is on the DigiBarn web page. Later Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18679&moid=7581 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 6 21:22:10 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 19:22:10 -0700 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 4/6/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> > 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the >> > top of the RX02. >> >>Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the top, except >>for one in a tabletop case, of course; and the drawings don't show >>anything of the sort. I can't see how you'd fasten any sort of top cover. > >I've seen an aluminum "cover" for RX02s - more of a nut/bolt shield >than a real cover. It mounts to the rack and stays behind when you >extend the RX02. I think it's just there to ensure debris from >further up the rack doesn't land on the back of the bare circuit board >in the RX02 and cause a short. My memory of them (the few times I've >seen one installed) is that it's gold-anodized aluminum. It doesn't >make a tight fit with the vertical surfaces of the RX02 frame, so I >doubt it's an effective EMI shield. Hi All it has to do is reduce the magnetic field. I doubt there is much issue with an electrical field. Most recording machines are quite sensitive to stray magnetic fields while recording. I'm not sure how much aluminum would reduce magnetic fields unless it was high frequency. I'd suspect that most 60 cycle would go right through it with little loss. Dwight > >If I find one in one of my racks, I'll take a picture, but it's hardly >an essential item. Most drives I've seen probably never had one. > >-ethan _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3 From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 6 21:15:28 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:15:28 -0500 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4616FEC0.1030500@mdrconsult.com> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Ensor wrote: > >> What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? > > Windows NT for PowerPC supports any CHRP machine, in theory, though in > practice it's a bit more limited than that. I've run it on the IBM > Sandalfoot (PowerPersonal, not exactly an RS/6000), ThinkPad PowerPC, > and Motorola PowerStack. I think I've heard of it also running on the > 7025-F50, but don't quote me on it. > > http://www.typewritten.org/Media/Images/winnt-4.0-ppc-new.install.gif > > It's a pointless exercise as there really isn't any software available > for it. Worth mentioning that it's also quite painful to get back to OF firmware after putting NT on the Motorola and PowerPersonal boxes. My little brother has my PP 850. I should go get it sometime. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 6 21:41:16 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 19:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Apr 6, 7 09:29:18 am" Message-ID: <200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com> > > > Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > > To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to > > developers. > It sure was. I saw Mac OS X running on a 233MHz Pentium II at one of > our Seattle dev houses. This was back in 1999. Star Trek isn't OS X, it was classic Mac OS, and was long dead before even Rhapsody emerged. See Apple Confidential 2.0 for more than you ever wanted to know about it. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Corruptisima republica plurimae leges. -- Tacitus -------------------------- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 6 21:50:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 19:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Canon Cat HP printer driver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <498615.12183.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > Until them, I'll play with the other sort of cat > (you know, the combined > mousetrap, bed warmer and alarm clock). > > -tony Frankly I can't wait to get my hands on the _other_ Canon - an AS100. Yes I know, just a peecee, but actually loads rarer then the Cat, albeit not as valuable. One actually did turn up on eBay recently, but I get those alerts sent to another account which I don't check w/any regularity. I suppose I have to call the guy up an drive all the way to Lake George (uh ~300 miles) to appropriate the one he promised me. Oi. The only way I'll part with my Cat though is via the auction block. It's just worth too much to trade or what have you. Sorry. Yes yes indeed. You chided me for owning something for more then 20 minutes and not cracking the lid. Some rebukes are too much to bear... LOL at alarm clock. They'll wake me up alright, but at entirely random intervals. And none tend to sleep on my bed anymore, because I toss and turn too much, and being that it interferes with THEIR rest, they'll just have none of it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 6 22:20:24 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? In-Reply-To: <0JG300IXCJYDPZH7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <828056.24174.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > >Any idea why? I'd love to have a handful of 20mb 3 > 1/2" drives to use > >for various things but I never see them. > > > >I'm talking about drives from Rodime, Seagate, > Lapine, etc... cerca 1985. > > Most were unreliable, Miniscribe comes to mind. Hehe - Don't forget the wonderful Kalok Octa-gone... Octa-went. -Ian From john at kourafas.com Fri Apr 6 22:34:10 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 23:34:10 -0400 Subject: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 References: <4616C3CE.4020209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002801c778c5$9b1bcf90$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> http://www.kourafas.com/taccs/index.html Pictures of the 2 TACCS systems I have, plus a shot of the DOD Mail Server in it's case. I plan on stripping the main logic module down to checkout each part and will post more photo's of the internals this weekend. The Main server has the same 4 boards as the Remote Terminal, plus 2 expansion daughter boards to hold the other cards. Did the Terminal Unit you pick up have the documentation packet inside, usually ships along with the Remote Terminal Group. -John Computer History Museum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 6:03 PM Subject: Re: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 >I picked up one of the terminal units for the Computer Museum > and just took at look at whats inside. It is a repackaged Burroughs > B25, which is, as you noted, a Convergent 80186 system. > > I'd be interested in seeing pics of the insides of the main > server unit. > > Convergent OEMed this stuff to lots of people. I think the > Microdata 1000 may be one as well. > > I found one of a five disc set today for what appears to be > CTOS rel 9.1-D for the 1000. > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/748 - Release Date: 4/5/2007 > 3:33 PM > > From irisworld at mac.com Fri Apr 6 22:39:02 2007 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 23:39:02 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <200704061657.l36GvRtr029607@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200704061657.l36GvRtr029607@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <8F5C4C81-5817-4BCF-94CA-66833392A887@mac.com> On Apr 6, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Did Mac OS X Server get released prior to the switch to Aqua? It very > likely did, I just don't remember as I didn't have a copy of the > Server > software. That would also put the switch to Aqua later than I > remembered > which is a distict possibility. > > Personally I still hate Aqua, and long for the classic look and feel. > Though that does not stop me from using Mac OS X daily. :^) It is > still > better than the alternatives. > > Zane > Yes is did. I remember running OSX Server on my Powerbook 3400. It had an OS 8 feel to it. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 6 22:52:20 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 06, 2007 09:29:18 AM Message-ID: <200704070352.l373qKdg000785@onyx.spiritone.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Did a copy of this x86 Mac OS ever leak out onto the net? > >> > >>Curt > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge no. As far as I know this was never seeded to > > developers. > > It sure was. I saw Mac OS X running on a 233MHz Pentium II at one of > our Seattle dev houses. This was back in 1999. > > Obtaining it was a matter of: > > 1. Asking about it > 2. Getting a denial that it existed > 3. A week later, an anonymous package in brown paper showed up with some > unmarked CDs with no return address. > > I swear I am not making any of that up. You should have read the rest of what I wrote in that message. Namely the following. > > OTOH, Rhapsody with the classic Mac OS interface was seeded. I forget > > if it was DR2 or DR3 that first sported the Aqua interface, and the first > > Developer release or two only ran on x86 boxes. The "Prelude to > > Rhapsody" release first given out an the WWDC and then sent to > > developers was stock OPENSTEP 4.2 and while intended to run on > > x86 could apparently also be loaded on NeXT 68k systems as well > > as the correct HP PA-RISC or Sun Sparc systems. The OS in question is "Star Trek" not "Rhapsody". "Star Trek" was done in house, and was roughly "System 7" era. I don't remember when exactly it came out. I realize I'm on a sleep deficit here, but I'm getting tired of people telling me I'm wrong, and that Mac OS X was released for the x86. Read the whole message people! What I said was never released was "Mac OS" not "Mac OS X"! BTW, anyone that was a Registered Developer at the time had copies of all of this. This is also why I'd been saying for years that Mac OS X would eventually be on Intel CPU's. Zane (who is very grumpy and tired) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 6 23:06:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 06, 2007 09:16:05 PM Message-ID: <200704070406.l3746wkb001491@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Hi, > > > A PPC version existed.... > > What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? > > > TTFN - Pete. > Probably on a CHRP PPC box (Common Hardware Reference Platform), I know that is what OS/2 was supposed to run on. IBM apparently built a whole warehouse full of the systems. I remember reading about them in '95 in Mac magazine. ISTR hearing years later that they were all scrapped. The same hardware was supposed to be able to run Mac OS, OS/2, AIX, and I think WinNT. IBM wanted to do virtualization so you could do run all the OS's at the same time. I saw a demo of OS/2 and AIX running at the same time on the same system in either '92 or '93. Zane From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 6 23:19:09 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 00:19:09 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46171BBD.4080009@internet1.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They both > work well and have onboard BIOSes. Dave, I've never heard if the Always card, but the Adaptec 1542x cards are 16-bit ISA cards. I know some 16-bit ISA video cards will work in an 8-bit slot, but I've never heard of scsi cards being able to do that..... he did say he's working on a 5150. Maybe you were thinking 8-bit scsi? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 6 23:33:26 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:33:26 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46171F16.7080106@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM >> hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, >> from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by >> model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? >> >> Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great if >> I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard >> drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it >> doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to >> test the card anyway :-/ > > I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They both > work well and have onboard BIOSes. I think he meant 8-bit ISA, not 8-bit SCSI. :^) Or do the 15xx cards work in an 8-bit slot? I have a Future Domain TMC-870 and a TMC-855, which Adaptec claims are both 8-bit ISA, even though the 885 has 16-bit fingers. Both have enough BIOS to boot DOS 6.22 from hard disk without drivers. Incredibly enough, Adaptec also has utilities and CD-ROM drivers for both cards. They both also have 2 FDC channels, but only the TMC-870 has BIOS support for drives 2 and 3. There's a driver floating around for the TMC-885's second channel, but it needs hacking to work. When I get the proverbial free minute, I intend to put the 870 into a Tandy 1000 and see if it flies. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 6 23:44:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:44:18 -0700 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org>, <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4616BF32.23074.366B6174@cclist.sydex.com> > On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > > I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > > hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > > from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI > > adapters by > > model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? If you're interested in an SCSI adapter-only card (no floppy support), a Trantor (or Adaptec) T130/AHA130 or T160/MA160 is pretty good. Boot ROM is optional, so be careful. I really liked the DTC 3180 (with floppy controller) and 3150 (without) cards. IIRC, the 3180 will allow you to place 3 floppy drives on a single 34-conductor cable. I've got the docs somewhere for many of the DTC controllers. These had boot ROMs. There were other controllers basically using the same NCR chip for scanners and the like (no boot ROM) and also the card (I think just called PC2) that came with Bernoulli drives (has boot ROM). The Seagate ST01 and ST02 controllers were other early PC 8-bit ISA controllers. I've got an ST01 but was never able to make it work with any of my (non-Seagate) drives. While I can't recall, I believe that Future Domain had an 8-bit ISA controller and Ultrastor may also have had one. I can check my old catalogs to see. The biggest problem for some of these is finding drivers. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 00:00:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:00:06 -0700 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: References: <46151C51.3070209@yahoo.co.uk>, , Message-ID: <4616C2E6.11875.3679DB90@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2007 at 17:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's handy to know - every once in a while, I long for a machine > with 2 or 3 parallel adapters, for things like old Connectix cameras, > LCD displays and the like. I've never assembled an ISA machine with > more than one printer adapter. I know that it really doesn't matter > to your own code what the I/O address is, but I wasn't sure how > flexible the underlying hardware might be to being assigned to > alternate addresses. 2P+2S ISA adapters aren't particularly difficult to find. Some of them will even support EPP and ECP modes. I seem to recall that there were 3 "stock" port addresses (3BCh, 378h, 278h), but others were possible, because, in a moment of sanity, IBM decided to dedicate some memory at 40:8 et seq. to actually record the base port addresses of the parallel port adapters one had. So, rather than compiling the possible port addresses into one's application, it was only necessary to look at low memory. For example, if one had a parallel port adapter set for 378h and an MDA at 3BCh, DOS and the BIOS would normally assign LPT1: to 3BCh and LPT2: to 378h. However, if an application exchanged the two words at 40:0008 and 40:000A, the reverse mapping would hold. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 7 00:12:28 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:12:28 -0700 Subject: Basic Four computer In-Reply-To: <001c01c7784f$016a4640$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <11021.195.114.232.202.1175849836.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <001c01c7784f$016a4640$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4617283C.90803@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Ed wrote.... > >> De description reads 'Baisc Four computer, complete with monitor, >> printer, >> cabling, documentation and a box of tapes.' >> >> Link to the ad is >> http://computer-hardware.marktplaats.nl/sun-unix-en-sgi/86263921-basic-four-computer.html >> > > > Sweet... always kinda sorta half-way wanted one of those :) > > Jay > > I think this is a later version than the one which used the 1600 that Microdata made. The original ones had Diablo drives, and I think this is a later disk drive. Also the front panel of the system was a 1600 with blue and black paint. This one is a different model, so is probably their hardware. They used a form factor that was about 4" longer than 1600 boards, but their card cages could take both the 10" microdata boards, as well as 14" basic 4 ones. Also they switched to "mos" memory sooner than microdata and had a 120k and later up to 2mb (I think) versions before abandoning the micodata for 68000 cpus. The real find here is the Centronics 101 or 103, and the original basic 4 terminal. Those are kind of unusual with the later system box this represents. I would have expected to find a band printer, or a Printronix 300 with a system of this age, not the Centronics. Hope someone can snag this one. Also Al would be well served to have the documentation and tapes for the CHM collection, if not the entire system. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 00:33:51 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 00:33:51 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > PS: I found this while fooling with and old 486 because I finally > decided to see if I could get my Central Point DEluxe Options Board > working - the TRANSCOPY that I had for it wouldn't run at all (froze > during the analyze phase), but I downloaded one from the net which > does, but I have been unsuccessful in actually recording and > recreating a plain-jane DOS DD 360k disk - I've gotten it to complete > the motions a couple of times but the result has errors in it. The Option Board was, IIRC, completely software-driven and extremely susceptible to machine speed (and sometimes even interrupt noise, which is why they made TCS.EXE which doesn't use EMS and might disable some hardware interrupts as well). The fastest machine I could get it to work in reliably was an AMD 386-40, with the ISA bus speed at either clock/5 (8MHz) or locked at a timer clock integral divider (ie. 7.16MHz). If memory serves, I had the best results at 7.16MHz. Currently I keep mine in my 5160. Trivia: Central Point received legal pressure from companies late in the Option Board's life; as such, later revisions of the software, while more compatible with faster machines, actually copy *less* protection methods -- and in a few cases, will copy a diskette such that the copy will work but copies of the copy will not. So my usual operation with the OB is to use the latest version to make a backup copy; if that fails, start going backward through revisions until I find one that works. I have only come across one protection method the OB cannot duplicate (other than laser holes, of course): Cop's Copylock II. It was used mostly in Europe. > This is a 486/25 (slowest I could make it) - does anyone know if > the CTP board will work reliably, or do I need to go slower... Slower. Look for ICD.COM (and companion ICE.COM) which disable the internal cache. I believe you can find a copy of them here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/oldonnew/resources/icdice.zip Also, add wait states if possible. Fix bus speed at or close to ISA standard (see above). I heard through the grapevine that, sadly, the creator of the Option Board (everything, hardware to software) passed away in the mid 1990s, so there is no official resource to ask about the OB. But it was always one of my favorite peripherals, and just watching it try to match track length while copying gave me some insight into FDC operation (and protection methods!) I used to have programming information on the OB; I don't know where it is but I can try to dig it up if you think you'd find it useful. Also, I'm assuming you've seen the treasure trove of info over at http://retro.icequake.net/dob/ ? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 7 00:57:43 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 22:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor In-Reply-To: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member which > includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. We've just been > setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious question arises... Can I interest you in a mostly full set of docs for the IBM RT? All I ask is shipping. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 00:59:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 00:59:23 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4617333B.9040307@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM >> hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, >> from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by >> model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? >> >> Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great if >> I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard >> drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it >> doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to >> test the card anyway :-/ > > I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They both > work well and have onboard BIOSes. Don't those have 16-bit ISA interfaces? Do they work in 8-bit mode (ie. if you plug them into an 8-bit slot)? Adaptec 1510 docs from 1991 suggest AT or later... The Always IN-2000 only supports IRQs above 9 so that clearly won't work in a PC or XT... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 02:42:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 03:42:26 -0400 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <5E0BF034-7816-4D86-AA13-23EAA15B08C6@neurotica.com> On Apr 6, 2007, at 5:13 PM, r.stricklin wrote: >> What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? > > Windows NT for PowerPC supports any CHRP machine, in theory, though > in practice it's a bit more limited than that. I've run it on the > IBM Sandalfoot (PowerPersonal, not exactly an RS/6000), ThinkPad > PowerPC, and Motorola PowerStack. I think I've heard of it also > running on the 7025-F50, but don't quote me on it. > > http://www.typewritten.org/Media/Images/winnt-4.0-ppc-new.install.gif > > It's a pointless exercise as there really isn't any software > available for it. So...does anyone, umm, have it? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 02:58:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 03:58:54 -0400 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: <4616EACB.9000700@hawkmountain.net> References: , <46156089.209@harrells.net> <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com> <4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> <4616EACB.9000700@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2007, at 8:50 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I need or should use a MFM drive. I know the RLL drives used a >> better recording surface to get more data in the same size but the >> controller is a MFM st506 from a Cromemco 250 system so it only >> knows MFM. I guess I could use a RLL drive and low level format it >> but I don't remember if that caused problems or not. Thanks > > While I've never done it, I'd imagine this would be OK. I know > people who > formatted MFM drives with RLL controllers. Most worked OK.. but I > think > some had problems longer term. Very dusty neurons are telling me that, generally speaking, if a drive has plated media, it'll usually deal with RLL just fine, even if not designed specifically for RLL use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 03:56:13 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 03:56:13 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <4616BF32.23074.366B6174@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org>, <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> <4616BF32.23074.366B6174@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46175CAD.30102@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're interested in an SCSI adapter-only card (no floppy > support), a Trantor (or Adaptec) T130/AHA130 or T160/MA160 is pretty > good. Boot ROM is optional, so be careful. T160 is 16-bit only, but good catch about the T130, I'll look for that, thanks. > I really liked the DTC 3180 (with floppy controller) and 3150 > (without) cards. IIRC, the 3180 will allow you to place 3 floppy > drives on a single 34-conductor cable. I've got the docs somewhere > for many of the DTC controllers. These had boot ROMs. 3180 is 16-bit only. 3150 is 8-bit, so I'll look for that too, thanks. > While I can't recall, I believe that Future Domain had an 8-bit ISA > controller and Ultrastor may also have had one. I can check my old > catalogs to see. The biggest problem for some of these is finding > drivers. But with a boot ROM I don't need drivers, yes? As for Future Domain, they seem rare but any TMC-8XX seems like it will work. All Ultrastors were 16-bit so those are out. Thanks for the suggestions. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Apr 7 05:28:42 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 12:28:42 +0200 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <200704070352.l373qKdg000785@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Zane H. Healy wrote: > Rhapsody with the classic Mac OS interface was seeded. I forget if it was DR2 > or DR3 that first sported the Aqua interface, and the first Developer release > or two only ran on x86 boxes. DR3 sported Aqua and dropped x86 support. Aqua never ran on x86 (well, until recently, anyway). ,xtG .tsooJ -- Capitalisation is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse," and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse." -- Joost van de Griek From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 7 05:58:50 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:58:50 +0200 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070407105850.GA12297@mail.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 10:07:10AM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Sun > > > even resold them under their brand for a while. > > I think you're thinking of the M2444. That's a damn fine tape drive. > Oh yes, you're right. I didn't notice 2442 vs 2444 until you pointed > it out! Ahhhm. What is the difference M2442 <=> M2444? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jclang at notms.net Sat Apr 7 06:14:34 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 07:14:34 -0400 Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor In-Reply-To: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46177D1A.8050005@notms.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member > which includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. > We've just been setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious > question arises... > > The 5085 has some sort of comms input ability on a BNC connector (and > output on another BNC, but that's terminated). The RT has a little > "breakout box" which hooks up to the 5085 link card on one side and > has four BNC outputs on the other. > > My *assumption* is that one of these outputs (and the breakout box > came with a coax cable already hooked up to BNC #1) links to the BNC > input on the back of the 5085, forming the comms channel between the > 8085 and the RT. > > However, it would be nice if someone can verify this! The RT > documentation doesn't cover the 5085 link option (so far as I've found > yet, anyway). The 5085 documentation doesn't cover it either (as it > only details how to hook the 5085 up to the peripherals and then boot > the hardware). > > Obviously I'm a little reluctant to go randomly plugging cables in, > particularly as the breakout box has four BNCs on board - although it > could well be that the RT 5085 link board was capable of driving up to > four 5085 processors independently. > > Google seems to know almost nothing about the 5085 option :-( > > cheers > > Jules > > > > this takes me back (way back).... I used 5085's on 43xx series systems. The 5085 connected to a channel adapter IRRc it was a 5088 The 5088 had 4 bnc connections and each connection could support more than 1 5085 5085's could be daisy-chained by connecting the out from one to the in of the next and terminating the last out. channel-->5088-->5085-->5085-->terminator I know nothing about a RT.. it may have the 5088 function built in. If that is the case then (I would assume) rt link board-->breakout box-->5085-->terminator it would support more than 1 string of 5085s joe lang From jclang at notms.net Sat Apr 7 06:36:28 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 07:36:28 -0400 Subject: ccs 2718a Message-ID: <4617823C.1060804@notms.net> Does anyone have any documents for the ccs 2718a 2 serial/2 parallel s-100 card, I've googled and found nothing. thanks joe lang From e.wardle1 at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 7 07:00:43 2007 From: e.wardle1 at ntlworld.com (Tony Wardle) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:00:43 +0100 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? Message-ID: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> Hi Joe, what do you want to know? I worked extensively in Dap16 in the 70's and still have a working H316 at home plus plenty of spares. Tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 7 08:45:56 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 09:45:56 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <0JG400DU8RIAKQYB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > From: "Paul Anderson" > Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 20:10:32 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I have some 1355 drives, among others,but don't recall the difference. I am >also having sys problems, so feel free to call me if you have any questions. > >Thanks, Paul >217-586-5361 > > >On 4/5/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> At 11:02 PM -0400 4/5/07, John Kourafas wrote: >> >Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen >> >both the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think >> >is crazy... >> >> A Micropolis 1325 MFM drive is a DEC RD53. The reason they go for so >> much is because there are systems still in commercial use that need >> these drives. >> >> Zane Unlikely to find even NOS 1325s as the most common problem is the head sticking to a rubber bumper such that it cannot load the heads. I have three of them I've opened, removed the offending bumper and use. One was opened recently for that fix as it had not been used and was good when stored. Allison From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sat Apr 7 11:09:59 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:09:59 +0100 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 6/4/07 21:16, "Ensor" wrote: > What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? I did some work in a school c. 1998 that involved re-installing NT 4.0 on a PPC-based box. It was Acorn branded, but I've no idea what IBM (Motorola?) reference board it was based around. If memory served it required something called an ARC disk when installing the OS, as the computer naturally had no BIOS. Microsoft gave up on the PPC version at Service Pack 2. As stated elsewhere, it was of use as a fileserver / (primary/backup) domain controller only, as there was no third party (or Microsoft!) software compiled to run on it. It's the only one of these beasts I've ever seen - does anybody know anything of it? With retrospect I wish I'd offered them a new x86 box to replace it and kept it for myself. The build quality was superb - weighed a bloody ton! Regards, Austin. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sat Apr 7 11:36:38 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:36:38 +0100 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <5E0BF034-7816-4D86-AA13-23EAA15B08C6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/4/07 08:42, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > So...does anyone, umm, have it? ;) > > -Dave Any NT4.0 Media will install on Alpha, MIPS, PPC etc. (Well, I can confirm that the PPC one will, anyway, and there are Alpha and MIPS folders there in addition to the usual i386). -Austin. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 7 10:54:18 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:54:18 -0700 Subject: ccs 2718a In-Reply-To: <4617823C.1060804@notms.net> References: <4617823C.1060804@notms.net> Message-ID: <4617BEAA.4060804@sbcglobal.net> joe lang wrote: > Does anyone have any documents for the ccs 2718a 2 serial/2 parallel > s-100 card, I've googled and found nothing. > > thanks > joe lang > I have a copy on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/csc2718.pdf And a slightly better copy of the schematic here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/ccs_2718_sch.jpg Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 10:26:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:26:31 -0700 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <5E0BF034-7816-4D86-AA13-23EAA15B08C6@neurotica.com> References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org>, , <5E0BF034-7816-4D86-AA13-23EAA15B08C6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <461755B7.19640.38B75A44@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 3:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > So...does anyone, umm, have it? ;) Ummm, there are too many antecedents in the preceding paragraphs for me to parse precisely what you mean by "it". But anyone who signed up with MSDN (actually, I believe they called it the "Developer Library") back then might have the "it" if it's software you're thinking of. MS was in the habit of distributing just about everything that was available just for the asking. Not at all like the situation today, where MS has turned the Developer Network into a money-making venture. Back in the day, it was my impression that it was a money-loser whose primary goal was expanding the reach of Microsoft products. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 10:38:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:38:23 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4617587F.19760.38C237A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 0:33, Jim Leonard wrote: > The Option Board was, IIRC, completely software-driven and extremely > susceptible to machine speed (and sometimes even interrupt noise, which > is why they made TCS.EXE which doesn't use EMS and might disable some > hardware interrupts as well). The fastest machine I could get it to > work in reliably was an AMD 386-40, with the ISA bus speed at either > clock/5 (8MHz) or locked at a timer clock integral divider (ie. > 7.16MHz). If memory serves, I had the best results at 7.16MHz. It should also be noted (if it hasn't already) that the Deluxe Dption board and the Option board are not the same animal. But neither will run in anything much faster than a slow 386. I've still got one in original shrink wrap as well as one installed in a 5160. I seem to remember something the DOB having a tie-in with a group of Hong Kong investors, and for the life of me, can't seem to recall the story. It may have been that the DOB was killed off when the HK people came in because the business of copying protected software was a little too much of a legal gray area for them. Be advised that the number of formats that a DOB can process is fairly limited. A Catweasel is far more flexible--and programming information is freely available, as well as being able to run on the fastest x86 PCI-equipped boxes. At one time, I began accumulating a pile of notes on DOB operation, but dropped it when the CW came out. There was no point in continuing the mental abuse. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 10:55:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:55:13 -0700 Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: References: , <4616EACB.9000700@hawkmountain.net>, Message-ID: <46175C71.23442.38D1A211@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 3:58, Dave McGuire wrote: > Very dusty neurons are telling me that, generally speaking, if a > drive has plated media, it'll usually deal with RLL just fine, even > if not designed specifically for RLL use. I seem to remember someone explaining it as oxide-coated media not being able to relay the flux reversals sufficiently accurately in time (they were sort of "blurry"). Plated media does much better in this respect. I recall having two ST225s sitting in front of me--one being the standard version and the other being the "R" version and being unable to discern any difference at all in the drive electronics. It could have been that the "R" drives were simply selected from the current production via testing and otherwise had nothing special to them. Most of the non-RLL-rated drives that I had worked fine under RLL. My 5160 box still uses a Quantum 30MB drive with an RLL controller giving me about 45MB. I've got some big 1224-cylinder drives (Atasi, Priam) that still work just fine with a supplemental driver (1024 cylinder BIOS limit problems) on a WD 1006SR2. Noisy buggers, though. But this is (2,7) RLL encoding. There were others, including one called something like "ARLL" from Perstor which used a different encoding (4,7 maybe?) for even more storage gain over standard MFM. I never had a lot of luck with those and didn't bother to keep any as far as I can remember. On the subject of old 3.5" hard disks--many of the early ones had miserable reliability. In particular, some of the early Conner drives would simply begin showing rapidly progressing media errors until they were practically unusable. Cheers, Chuck From dasbooterror at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 07:47:07 2007 From: dasbooterror at gmail.com (Joshua Benedetto) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:47:07 -0400 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS Message-ID: <21e211710704070547v7c7c10b2iccdc1d641d1d3575@mail.gmail.com> I apologized to everyone who has corrected me, I totally missed the title of the thread *head desk* -Josh From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 7 11:27:32 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 11:27:32 -0500 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <5E0BF034-7816-4D86-AA13-23EAA15B08C6@neurotica.com> References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <5E0BF034-7816-4D86-AA13-23EAA15B08C6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4617C674.7080204@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 6, 2007, at 5:13 PM, r.stricklin wrote: >>> What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? >> http://www.typewritten.org/Media/Images/winnt-4.0-ppc-new.install.gif >> > So...does anyone, umm, have it? ;) There are ALPHA, MIPS, and PPC directories on the NT v4.0 Server CD-ROM. My 3.51 media's not here, so I couldn't tell you about that. The AXP directory's how I made sure my first Alpha, an Aspen Alpine, was alive. Be danged if I remember how I booted the install, though. I've also never tried installing NT on a PowerPC box, as none of the ones I've had had the ARC BIOS already, and every reference I can find says that flashing back to OF is impossible. I don't like NT that much.... Doc From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 09:34:33 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:34:33 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: <20070407105850.GA12297@mail.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20070407105850.GA12297@mail.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704070734x4713fe21xa3727499a9275e86@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/07, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Oh yes, you're right. I didn't notice 2442 vs 2444 until you pointed > > it out! > Ahhhm. What is the difference M2442 <=> M2444? > -- > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-5325-0100A_244X_Jun87.pdf M2441A Standalone, 100 IPS Streaming, 12.5 IPS Start/Stop M2442A Rack mount, 100 IPS Streaming, 12.5 IPS Start/Stop M2443A Standalone, 75 IPS Streaming, 25 IPS Streaming M2444A Rack mount, 75 IPS Streaming, 25 IPS Streaming M244xAC models have a 256KB buffer adapter installed. M2441A / M2443A 110 kg , 242 lb. M2442A / M2444A 90 kg, 198 lb. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 11:08:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:08:57 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <4617333B.9040307@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> <4617333B.9040307@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2007, at 1:59 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM >>> hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI >>> drives, >>> from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI >>> adapters by >>> model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? >>> >>> Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be >>> great if >>> I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard >>> drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it >>> doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or >>> software to >>> test the card anyway :-/ >> I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They >> both work well and have onboard BIOSes. > > Don't those have 16-bit ISA interfaces? Do they work in 8-bit mode > (ie. if you plug them into an 8-bit slot)? Adaptec 1510 docs from > 1991 suggest AT or later... > > The Always IN-2000 only supports IRQs above 9 so that clearly won't > work in a PC or XT... I'm sorry, I totally missed the "8-bit" requirement. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 11:10:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:10:53 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <46171BBD.4080009@internet1.net> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> <46171BBD.4080009@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2007, at 12:19 AM, C Fernandez wrote: >> I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They >> both work well and have onboard BIOSes. > > I've never heard if the Always card, but the Adaptec 1542x cards > are 16-bit ISA cards. I know some 16-bit ISA video cards will work > in an 8-bit slot, but I've never heard of scsi cards being able to > do that..... he did say he's working on a 5150. Maybe you were > thinking 8-bit scsi? I was indeed...I completely missed his 8-bit ISA requirement; I must've been tired. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 11:12:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:12:56 -0400 Subject: Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. In-Reply-To: <20070407105850.GA12297@mail.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20070407105850.GA12297@mail.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:58 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>>> Got one of these too. They were used on Suns mostly, I think. Sun >>>> even resold them under their brand for a while. >>> I think you're thinking of the M2444. That's a damn fine tape >>> drive. >> Oh yes, you're right. I didn't notice 2442 vs 2444 until you pointed >> it out! > Ahhhm. What is the difference M2442 <=> M2444? I don't know; I've never seen an M2442. I am very curious about it, though, as I'm a big fan of Fuji stuff from that era. It's some of the best-built hardware I've ever seen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 11:14:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:14:16 -0400 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> Message-ID: <00F0BE19-5F81-4B80-A960-836120898FA1@neurotica.com> On Apr 7, 2007, at 8:00 AM, Tony Wardle wrote: > Hi Joe, what do you want to know? I worked extensively in Dap16 > in the 70's and still > have a working H316 at home plus plenty of spares. Ok, you simply MUST put up some pics. That is your moral duty. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Apr 7 07:41:35 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 14:41:35 +0200 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <014e01c77912$14bab0e0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jim Leonard" > I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by > model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? > I know the ST-01 and ST-02 (cant remember the manufacturer). If I'm not very much mistaken, the ST-01 can only address op to 100 cylinders. The ST-01 has a PROM possibility. Then there is the OMTI 512 from SMS. It has a 50-pin connector for internal drives, and a SUBD 37 pin for external connections. I have the documentation for the 512, if you need it Nico From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Apr 7 09:17:39 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 10:17:39 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4617A803.3080501@hawkmountain.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by > model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? > > Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great if > I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard > drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it > doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to > test the card anyway :-/ > > PS: If anyone knows of any sources for the ADP50 or similarly functional > 8-bit ISA IDE adapters, that would be much appreciated as well. Thanks! Seagate ST-02 (I'm pretty sure that was the model designation) I used a couple of them years ago... might have one buried around here still, but it would take an incredible effort to find it if still here. -- Curt From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Apr 7 07:42:34 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > John Kourafas wrote: >> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both the >> ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... > > What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated as they got. The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at 190MB unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the number of cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps limitations in the PC BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to the number of sectors/cylinder and the number of platters (the 2190 had 15 or 17?) Steve -- From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 07:57:07 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:57:07 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <4617333B.9040307@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <0B96A985-6BE5-466C-9C55-008CE8922A7B@neurotica.com> <4617333B.9040307@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In 04/18/2004 I sold my two ISA 8 bit SCSI based on NCR 53C90/53C90A chips, both with boot BIOS. My paypal account recorded the model numbers: Storage Dimensions SDC801 Control Concepts HB-A8 regards, vax, 9000 On 4/7/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Apr 6, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > >> hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > >> from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by > >> model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? > >> > >> Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great > if > >> I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard > >> drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it > >> doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to > >> test the card anyway :-/ > > > > I've used Adaptec 1542B/1542C and Always IN-2000 cards. They both > > work well and have onboard BIOSes. > > Don't those have 16-bit ISA interfaces? Do they work in 8-bit mode (ie. > if you plug them into an 8-bit slot)? Adaptec 1510 docs from 1991 > suggest AT or later... > > The Always IN-2000 only supports IRQs above 9 so that clearly won't work > in a PC or XT... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Apr 7 07:33:15 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:33:15 +0100 Subject: RX02 EMI? In-Reply-To: <001f01c7784f$c0752280$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <0JFZ00BI7U278K52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net><009d01c77748$f39d4730$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4614BD54.1070100@dunnington.plus.com><002c01c777f0$08918780$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46162FD3.3080907@dunnington.plus.com> <001f01c7784f$c0752280$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46178F8B.3080205@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2007 14:30, Jay West wrote: > I had written... >>> 4) I believe that there is supposed to be some type of cover over the >>> top of the RX02. > > To which Pete replied... >> Not normally. I've never seen one with anything over the top > Actually, it was supposed to have one, and I just found the references > to it it DEC manuals to prove it. Rackmount RX02's were shipped with a > metal cover, which I have. I stand corrected. I'd not paid that much attention to the user manual, and none of the RX02s I've come across were associated with a cover, so I assumed it didn't exist. But given the number of people here who have one, or seen one, they're not *that* rare. Drat, that's something else I need to look for now ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 12:29:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:29:49 -0500 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/7/07, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > John Kourafas wrote: > >> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both the > >> ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... > > > > What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? > > I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run > across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that > anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated > as they got. Tandon 262 Miniscribe 8425 The infamous Kalok Octagon KL-230 There were probabably a few others. I doubt there were any 3.5" drives over 40 MB, though. > The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at 190MB > unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the number of > cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps limitations in the PC > BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to the number of sectors/cylinder > and the number of platters (the 2190 had 15 or 17?) That's certainly close to the largest, if not the absolute largest. DEC took the XT2190 and formatted it at 154MB as the RD54. I have a few in MicroVAXen. Much more solid than the RD53 (Micropolis 1325), and no jumper moving required (there's a single solderable jumper that must be installed to turn a generic 1325 into an RD53 so that the customer-runnable formatter recognizes it). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 13:09:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:09:39 -0500 Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? In-Reply-To: <461692ED.4020809@compsys.to> References: <461692ED.4020809@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If you are able to burn a CD-R, INCLUDING BLOCKS 0-63 (which > are sectors 0-15 on a CD), you can also boot from a SCSI CD > drive with unit 0 under E11 and using your PDP-11. I don't > think that SIMH allows a CD to be used as a raw device That sounds like a Windows limitation. Under UNIX, you just give simh the raw drive name, like /dev/hdc for an IDE CD-ROM drive that is primary on the second IDE chain. There is no equivalent under Windows. -ethan From rcini at optonline.net Sat Apr 7 12:37:53 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:37:53 -0400 Subject: OT: Compaq server available Message-ID: All: I just upgraded servers again and this time I have a (formerly new) Compaq ProLiant 1600 rack mounted Pentium III Server. It has (going from memory) the following: dual Pentium III/533 CPUs, 512mb of RAM, a 9gb boot drive and 6x9.1g 7200 RPM drives in a RAID-5 configuration. It also has the Integrated Management Display. I forget the measurements, but it?s probably a 5U height. I also have some spares and accessories for it that?s part of the package, including rack rails (but they?re for a Compaq rack, which is different than the standard 19? rack in depth.) Right now it?s running Windows NT Server with no problems. I upgraded to a DL360 (1U) and a Quantum Snap NAS to reduce noise in the shop and to upgrade to Windows 2000 Server and Active Directory. This beast is heavy so local pickup from Long Island, NY would be preferred. If anyone?s interested, contact me off-list. I would be looking for $200 for it. I?ll throw in a 5g/10g DLT drive and cable with the sale. If I can locate the box for it I might be able to ship it but IIRC that was expensive. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Sat Apr 7 12:53:38 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Compaq server available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops, it?s 6x18.2gb drives in a RAID-5 configuration. I was wondering why 5x9 !=72. On 4/7/07 1:37 PM, "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > I just upgraded servers again and this time I have a (formerly new) Compaq > ProLiant 1600 rack mounted Pentium III Server. It has (going from memory) the > following: dual Pentium III/533 CPUs, 512mb of RAM, a 9gb boot drive and > 6x9.1g 7200 RPM drives in a RAID-5 configuration. It also has the Integrated > Management Display. I forget the measurements, but it?s probably a 5U height. > I also have some spares and accessories for it that?s part of the package, > including rack rails (but they?re for a Compaq rack, which is different than > the standard 19? rack in depth.) > > Right now it?s running Windows NT Server with no problems. I upgraded to a > DL360 (1U) and a Quantum Snap NAS to reduce noise in the shop and to upgrade > to Windows 2000 Server and Active Directory. > > This beast is heavy so local pickup from Long Island, NY would be > preferred. If anyone?s interested, contact me off-list. I would be looking for > $200 for it. I?ll throw in a 5g/10g DLT drive and cable with the sale. > > If I can locate the box for it I might be able to ship it but IIRC that > was expensive. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Apr 7 13:04:37 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 14:04:37 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? > I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by > model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? > > Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great if > I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard > drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it > doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to > test the card anyway :-/ > > PS: If anyone knows of any sources for the ADP50 or similarly functional > 8-bit ISA IDE adapters, that would be much appreciated as well. Thanks! > -- I have a VVSCD-08 V1.2 card with a Future Domain TMC-950 chip on it. IRQ can be set to 3,4,5,9 but I only see the TMC chip on it so if there is no ROM its probably not bootable. The oldest ISA machine I currently have is a 386/40, if you want me to connect a drive to the card and see if its bootable let me know. I have another 8 bit card but its for external SCSI only, are you trying for an Internal drive? Someday if I snag an XT or Tandy 1000 Desktop I plan on using the 8 bit SCSI as well as an 8 bit Paradise VGA card in it. Having CGA and VGA on the same machine with dual monitors would be kind of interesting. TZ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 7 13:33:05 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 11:33:05 -0700 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? Message-ID: <4617E3E1.2030702@bitsavers.org> > I worked extensively in Dap16 in the 70's and still > have a working H316 at home plus plenty of spares. What software do you have for it? There are a few people that have been looking for the disc operating system for a while now From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 7 14:17:18 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:17:18 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com><006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c77949$5ee52ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> NEC made a ST-506 drive in 3.5 inch. There is a remote chance I have one of these out in the garage... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven N. Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:42 AM Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> John Kourafas wrote: >>> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both >>> the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is >>> crazy... >> >> What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? > > I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run > across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that > anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated > as they got. > > The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at 190MB > unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the number of > cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps limitations in the PC > BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to the number of sectors/cylinder > and the number of platters (the 2190 had 15 or 17?) > > Steve > > > -- > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 7 15:20:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <200704070406.l3746wkb001491@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <966198.8059.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Probably on a CHRP PPC box (Common Hardware > Reference Platform), I know that > is what OS/2 was supposed to run on. IBM apparently > built a whole warehouse > full of the systems. I remember reading about them > in '95 in Mac magazine. > ISTR hearing years later that they were all > scrapped. The same hardware was > supposed to be able to run Mac OS, OS/2, AIX, and I > think WinNT. IBM wanted > to do virtualization so you could do run all the > OS's at the same time. I > saw a demo of OS/2 and AIX running at the same time > on the same system in > either '92 or '93. > > Zane IBM produced a PPC based coprocessor if that's the correct term for the AS400. O man I knew it would also supports MIPS' as someone pointed out rather late in the conversation. Here wondering if anyone ever got it running on an SGI box. Note that it's a far cry to say an OS supports a particular uP to saying it will run on such and such a box. I personally never heard of it running on a Mac or such (DEC Alphas though for sure, have to wonder if anyone else built systems around the Alpha but DEC, so if certain warez will work on a certain platform, and there's only 1 vendor supporting it, chances are it will run on that one. Logic at least would seem to dictate...). To get it to run on a particular box, wouldn't changes primarily need to be made in the HAL? Adding driver support to NT is a bit more excruciating then say to Win95, otherwise we would have seen USB support, though I thought I heard there was talk of addding such capability in a service pack. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 7 14:55:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 14:55:09 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704071758.l37Hwcf0009456@hosting.monisys.ca> > The Option Board was, IIRC, completely software-driven and extremely > susceptible to machine speed (and sometimes even interrupt noise, which > is why they made TCS.EXE which doesn't use EMS and might disable some > hardware interrupts as well). The fastest machine I could get it to > work in reliably was an AMD 386-40, with the ISA bus speed at either > clock/5 (8MHz) or locked at a timer clock integral divider (ie. > 7.16MHz). If memory serves, I had the best results at 7.16MHz. > > Currently I keep mine in my 5160. I have the bus set to 7.16 Mhz, all the wait states I can get turned on, cache turned off etc - but I think the 486 is still too fast for it. > Slower. Look for ICD.COM (and companion ICE.COM) which disable the > internal cache. I believe you can find a copy of them here: > http://www.oldskool.org/guides/oldonnew/resources/icdice.zip > Also, add wait states if possible. Fix bus speed at or close to ISA > standard (see above). Sad thing is I don't have any 386s or AT any more (Actually I have a Compaq portable III, but that a bit tough to screw around with - I might try it in a 5160 - that should be slow enough :-) > I heard through the grapevine that, sadly, the creator of the Option > Board (everything, hardware to software) passed away in the mid 1990s, > so there is no official resource to ask about the OB. But it was always > one of my favorite peripherals, and just watching it try to match track > length while copying gave me some insight into FDC operation (and > protection methods!) In my case, the board would take FOREVER to match the track length - another clue that it's having timing problems - Often several minites/track - I had to open it up to get it to work at a reasonable speed. As noted previously, I was just trying to copy a generic 360K dos disk. Just trying to see if the board workd. > I used to have programming information on the OB; I don't know where it > is but I can try to dig it up if you think you'd find it useful. Also, > I'm assuming you've seen the treasure trove of info over at > http://retro.icequake.net/dob/ ? Yes I did thanks - I believe thats where I got the newer software version. Is there any detailed information available on the DOB (I understand the OB and the DOB are different)? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 7 14:55:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 14:55:09 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4617587F.19760.38C237A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> > It should also be noted (if it hasn't already) that the Deluxe Dption > board and the Option board are not the same animal. I was aware of that - I've found detailed info on the OB but not the DOB. >But neither will > run in anything much faster than a slow 386. I've still got one in > original shrink wrap as well as one installed in a 5160. I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) > I seem to remember something the DOB having a tie-in with a group of > Hong Kong investors, and for the life of me, can't seem to recall the > story. It may have been that the DOB was killed off when the HK > people came in because the business of copying protected software was > a little too much of a legal gray area for them. Rumors are that they bowed to presure from the software makers - I don't know - I really don't care about copy protection, I just wanted to see if I could copy some non-IBM format disks. > Be advised that the number of formats that a DOB can process is > fairly limited. A Catweasel is far more flexible--and programming > information is freely available, as well as being able to run on the > fastest x86 PCI-equipped boxes. At one time, I began accumulating a > pile of notes on DOB operation, but dropped it when the CW came out. > There was no point in continuing the mental abuse. Yeah, I have to order a cat - The DOB came in with some other material last year, and I've just gotten around to trying it out. It is "interesting", but IMHO fairly useless as an archival tool because it's tied up in closed formats and proprietary software (at least I've not been able to find any information on the formats) - That means that the archives can only last as long as I have access to a working DOB system... I though the DOB would make a bitwise copy (they call it transition copy) - with warnings about testing the copy because it can't do CRC check etc. I assumed it was at a lower level than any actual formatting and that it could copy "most anything" .... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 7 15:04:44 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:04:44 -0500 Subject: Yet another conversion utility: DMK2IMD Message-ID: <200704071808.l37I88V9011088@hosting.monisys.ca> In case anyone is interested, I have added a new utility to the Imagedisk package called DMK2IMD which converts a DMK format image into an ImageDisk compatible image (.IMD). Let me know if you have any problems. If there are other floppy disk archival formats that anyone would like to see supported, please let me know and I'll see what I can do. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 14:38:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 14:38:48 -0500 Subject: rack me, 11/34 style In-Reply-To: <200704062132.l36LWZCe020434@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200704062132.l36LWZCe020434@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, Brad Parker wrote: > > Following Jay's excellent lead, I bought the 'correct' rack slides for > my 11/34 a few months ago. Today I took some time and put the 11/34 in > the rack. > > The best part was tilting it 90 degrees to get access to the backplane! > woo hoo! nerd heaven! It's a lot easier to install/remove DD11 and similar backplanes when the box is in the upright position. Fortunately, one rarely reconfigures the backplanes themselves (compared to the contents of the backplanes). > Oddly, when I rotated it I heard a strange metal tinlking/clinking. > hmmm... took bottom off and found a metal circular key wedged in the > bottom wires. now *that* could have caused some problems! Indeed, especially if it wedged near the -15V pins. > wonder what it's for. the 11/34 has no key. Perhaps it went with the machine that _used to_ be next to your 11/34 in its former home? -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:49:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:49:37 -0500 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run > across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that > anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated > as they got. I've got quite a few Rodime ones here - can't remember the model number without going and digging them out, I'm afraid. I *think* they're 30MB. They came amongst a pile of ex-Torch Computers stock, but I've never actually *seen* one in a customer Torch system, so I'm not sure what (if any) conclusion to draw from that. > The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at 190MB > unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the number of > cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps limitations in the PC > BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to the number of > sectors/cylinder and the number of platters (the 2190 had 15 or 17?) Actually, I wondered this the other day; ESDI got a lot bigger (around 600MB I think) but IIRC was pretty much the same interface. So quite what limited the capacity of ST412 drives I'm not sure. I believe that cylinder seeking was done by a sequence of single steps (rather than asking the drive: "seek to this cylinder"), so there's probably an upper limit in the ST412 spec of how fast step pulses can be sent (and beyond a certain size a drive will either become slow as mole-asses, or some other timeout will come into play :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 14:03:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:03:09 -0500 Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor In-Reply-To: References: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4617EAED.9030107@yahoo.co.uk> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Apr 6, 2007, at 10:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member >> which includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. >> We've just been setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious >> question arises... > > Dang, I'm jealous. I've been looking for a 5080 attachment adapter for > RT, PS/2 or RS/6000 for a while now. Well I shan't gloat - I'm not even sure how alive the system is yet :-) The 5085 passes diags and boots OK, so that side is good - but I've not got to the RT side of things yet, other than to verify that the PSU is healthy and that the CPU and memory pass diags. The big problem is IBM's use of ESDI hard disks - if those are toast then, whilst I think there's enough floppy media to reinstall AIX, coming by a replacement ESDI drive (and more importantly an ESDI drive that AIX supports) will be interesting. > Your assumption is correct. You'll probably want the RT PC Options > Installation manual off my site: > > http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/ Hurrah - that's a bit good! :-) Many thanks! > What you probably have is the S/370 Host Interface Adapter, which > operates similarly in principle to the later, MCA version for PS/2 or > RS/6000. I don't think it matters which BNC connector you use. Quite possibly! Anyway, I'll be doing the first full test-boot of the system when I'm next at the museum :-) The RT's got the fastest ROMP processor offered (plus the FP board), 3 x 300MB drives, SCSI (for the tape drive), Ethernet, Token Ring, and a quad-port serial board. The 5085 side has the Dials, tablet and LPFK options. So as far as "small" IBM systems go it's pretty darn slick. Fingers crossed those hard drives still work... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 14:07:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:07:13 -0500 Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor In-Reply-To: References: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4617EBE1.2000502@yahoo.co.uk> David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member which >> includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. We've just been >> setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious question arises... > > Can I interest you in a mostly full set of docs for the IBM RT? All I ask > is shipping. We've actually got most of them I think (plus a whole set of CATIA v3 docs)! I just haven't stumbled across anything yet that documents the 5085 link :-( Somewhat annoyingly, there's volume 1 and volume III of the techrefs too, but not volume II. Still, can't complain - there's masses of software on tape and floppy too, and the system's pretty tricked-out. It'd be hard to find a better RT setup anywhere. It could be useful to hear what you have though *if* I can get our system booting; shipping might prove worth it if some of the docs would fill holes in what we have! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 14:14:00 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:14:00 -0500 Subject: ping Hans Pufal Message-ID: <4617ED78.2030302@yahoo.co.uk> Hans, are you about on here still? One of our guys at the museum has been trying to get hold of you without success - I said I'd put a message on here... cheers! Jules From jwest at ezwind.net Sat Apr 7 15:40:07 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:40:07 -0500 Subject: DEC/VG Datasystem/System Industries/Western Dynex Message-ID: <000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> Found something rather oddish (for this place) at one of my usual junk hunting grounds. Thought I'd post about it here and see if anyone had any interest. More importantly, I was wondering if people might be able to fill in background on what this system probably contained. DEC H960 Rack with 861C power controller, both side panels present. Back door present, but 8x10 hole cut in back. There is a DEC header panel at the top which is shiny silver on the front with the text "VG DataSystem 2000" screened on it. There is a chassistrak railset, looks like one would use for an RX02 but it's inner rails only. The 861 power cable was cut on the plug end. There was also the condor fan and cabling. This rack had a 1/2 height dec filler panel and I snagged that myself, along with the two (and only two) filler panel stud mounts. At the back of the rack was some custom interconnect stuff, obviously used to connect the machine to the outside world. There was a rackmount box (removed from rack but available). I believe it to be a disk controller of some sort. It had a tag on it saying "RKA1-3, RKB1-3, SYS & DSK?" {the DSK was fuzzy, may not have that right). On the rear is a 2 position toggle switch marked "NORMAL" and "FORMAT". The front of the unit said System Industries, and on the back it said "Model 3040-3051". From the back of this box were about 4 or so long ribbon cables that I was told went to the disk drives (can't verify this for sure). Lastly there were two identical disk drives, obviously Western Dynex drives even though they had "System Industries" on the front. I remember them from microdata days. They were labled XDD-6222-TA45F, 2400RPM, 200TPI. Each drive had a piece of removable media the media was visually the same as RL02 media from the top. One said "scratch disk, all data here will be lost". The other had a lable that read "VG 2035 F/B Release 7.3 bootable". "UCC system before converting to rel 8 in Jul 82". Both drives include mounting rails. One drive appears to have had the fan on the rear removed. The drives appear to be in fair condition, but probably are just good for parts. If anyone is really interested in any of it, let me know and I'll put you in touch with the shop. I may be interested in the dynex drives if they could be used on my Microdata. If no one takes the rack I may see if he'll sell me just the condor fan. I'm curious if anyone knows about VG datasystem 2000 or System Industries. Jay West From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Apr 7 14:39:50 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:39:50 -0600 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4617F386.1020903@brutman.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm restoring a few more 5150s and realized that, although my MFM > hardware stores are being depleted, I'm just maggoty with SCSI drives, > from 40MB to 18GB. Can anyone recommend any 8-bit ISA SCSI adapters by > model, name, or whatever I can use to search for them on ebay? > > Also, do such 8-bit adapters have an onboard BIOS? It would be great if > I didn't have to boot off of a floppy disk just to access the hard > drive... I have a CorelSCSI card at home, but when I plug it in it > doesn't do anything at POST, and I don't have a driver or software to > test the card anyway :-/ I've been grafting 8 bit ISA cards onto my PCjr using an adapter. Some of the good SCSI cards that I have played with are: - Anything in the Future Domain 8xx series. Some have boot problems, some do not. Avoid the ones that don't have standard pinouts. These cards have good driver support for removable media and CD-ROM as well. - Trantor T130B - Trantor T128 - ST01: Works, but is kind of limited. ST02 should be similar. Mike From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 15:27:20 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:27:20 -0400 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4617FEA8.9060709@gmail.com> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > A PPC version existed.... > > What hardware would this have run on, RS/6000? Nope. Specific Mac models and clones, if memory serves. Peace... Sridhar From ballsandy at msn.com Sat Apr 7 15:49:01 2007 From: ballsandy at msn.com (john ball) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:49:01 -0700 Subject: IBM Portable PC and a scsi drive Message-ID: After finding an IBM portable PC in the trash, I did the usual restoration and now it's time to have fun. I grabbed a Trantor T130B scsi card and set it as follows: IRQ---5 I/O---340H Bios address---CA00H I then attached a seagate ST-296N 80+ meg hard drive, set it to ID 1 and powered the system on. The card detects the drive and the system addresses it as C: and then because the drive is not formatted I have to floppy boot and patition and format it. This is where things got strange. As the floppy loads, the drive works a bit and the activity lamp comes on and stays on, then the floppy drive stops loading and I need to do the three fingered salute. (ctrl+alt+del) The hard drive lamp stas on and the second floppy boot is successful but fdisk errors out with no fixed disks present. I thred several different dip switch settings on the card, all go the same way except for a few when the system can't even see the card. The boot floppy holds DOS 3.30 and came from an ACER system since I did not receive any origional floppies with the system, just two games and a damaged DOS 6.2 disk What's going on? The termination and cables are fine and should I set zero wait state to on or off? I currently have it set to off. EDIT: For some strange reason, the ROM on the card takes over the boot when no scsi devices are installed. Usually what happens is that if the system can't find anything to boot from, it will dump you into the onboard BASIC. When the card is installed and there is nothing to boot from, I instead get "looking for SCSI or floppy devices to boot from". Is there anyway for me to stop it looking for something to boot from and go to BASIC? To me it really limits me to using basic off disks. _________________________________________________________________ This Easter, Get Active With Live Maps! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!101 From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 7 15:44:15 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:44:15 -0300 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <01C7793C.7899EA20@mse-d03> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Steven N. Hirsch" Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 >I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run >across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that >anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated >as they got. >Steve ---------------- Not a very extensive collection then ;-) Almost everybody made 'em; Miniscribe 8425, Seagate ST125, etc. etc. I've got a box full here. mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 16:42:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:42:52 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> But neither will >> run in anything much faster than a slow 386. I've still got one in >> original shrink wrap as well as one installed in a 5160. > > I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the > images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible > network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) You can doubtless find one closer to home, but *somewhere* I have an 8-bit Ethernet card [1] pulled from an XT clone (and I stumbled across the boot floppy with the network stack on it the other day - no idea if it's still readable of course!). I can go digging for it if needs be... [1] memory says it was a 3Com board, but memory also says it was full-length - and I don't think that computes (looking at google, the majority of 3Com ISA boards are short and 16-bit) > Yeah, I have to order a cat me too I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are out there for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, and owners must have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them - but every time I've dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to what kind of user community exists to actively share code and experiences. (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight OS like Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are available for the alternatives) I don't mind hacking code together if I have to - but I really don't want to be hacking the same code together that every other single owner has also had to hack together; that's just a waste... :-) cheers J. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 16:04:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:04:14 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the > images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible > network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) If you have an Intel Etherexpress 8/16 it will work, but you need to set it up for 8-bit mode whilst in a 16-bit slot first, using the software that comes with it IIRC. I've heard that most older 3com cards will work in an 8-bit slot if you put them there, but I haven't tried it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 16:07:35 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:07:35 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704071758.l37Hwcf0009456@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704071758.l37Hwcf0009456@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46180817.5080207@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> The Option Board was, IIRC, completely software-driven and extremely >> susceptible to machine speed (and sometimes even interrupt noise, which >> is why they made TCS.EXE which doesn't use EMS and might disable some >> hardware interrupts as well). The fastest machine I could get it to >> work in reliably was an AMD 386-40, with the ISA bus speed at either >> clock/5 (8MHz) or locked at a timer clock integral divider (ie. >> 7.16MHz). If memory serves, I had the best results at 7.16MHz. >> >> Currently I keep mine in my 5160. > > I have the bus set to 7.16 Mhz, all the wait states I can get turned on, > cache turned off etc - but I think the 486 is still too fast for it. With wait states and cache turned off (INTERNAL cache, not L2, see the ICD.COM util I mentioned earlier) my 486 is slower than my 5150. So you probably missed the internal cache step. >> I heard through the grapevine that, sadly, the creator of the Option >> Board (everything, hardware to software) passed away in the mid 1990s, >> so there is no official resource to ask about the OB. But it was always >> one of my favorite peripherals, and just watching it try to match track >> length while copying gave me some insight into FDC operation (and >> protection methods!) > > In my case, the board would take FOREVER to match the track length - another > clue that it's having timing problems - Often several minites/track - I had Yes, very astute. If it's taking minutes per track to match track length, then you muck with the computer and/or move the board to a different machine. >> http://retro.icequake.net/dob/ ? > > Yes I did thanks - I believe thats where I got the newer software version. > Is there any detailed information available on the DOB (I understand the > OB and the DOB are different)? They are, but all the info I have I've contributed to the aforementioned site, and it was only OB info. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 16:10:21 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:10:21 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <4617A803.3080501@hawkmountain.net> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <4617A803.3080501@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <461808BD.6090306@oldskool.org> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Seagate ST-02 Aren't the ST-01 and ST-02 not ASPI compatible? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 7 16:15:35 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:15:35 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <461809F7.7080901@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a VVSCD-08 V1.2 card with a Future Domain TMC-950 chip on it. 16-bit only, but thank you for offering, I appreciate it. > Having CGA and VGA on the > same machine with dual monitors would be kind of interesting. It certainly would be, considering that it's impossible :-) CGA and VGA both have adapter RAM at B800:0000. You can still do dual-monitor, but it would have to be Mono/Herc and CGA or Mono/Herc and VGA. Mono/Herc has RAM at B000:0000 and doesn't overlap. Many debuggers support this configuration. > Someday if I snag an XT or Tandy 1000 Desktop I plan on using the 8 > bit SCSI as well as an 8 bit Paradise VGA card in it. You can't put VGA into a Tandy 1000 because the Tandy video cannot be disabled, IIRC. There were a few Tandy 1000 models that had VGA onboard, but while they supported Tandy 3-voice sound+DAC, they did not support Tandy 16-color graphics. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 16:08:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:08:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST506 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 6, 7 10:00:52 am Message-ID: > > On 4/6/07, info wrote: > > I need or should use a MFM drive. I know the RLL drives used a better > > recording surface to get more data in the same size but the controller > > is a MFM st506 from a Cromemco 250 system so it only knows MFM. I guess > > I could use a RLL drive and low level format it but I don't remember if > > that caused problems or not. Thanks > > Formatting an RLL-certified drive with an MFM controller should not > cause any hassles - just a loss of capacity compared to the RLL > format. An ST238R formats just fine as an ST225. IIRC, every possible spacing of pulses used in MFM encoding could also occur in RLL encoding. So unless the drive tries to interpret the data stream in some way -- and AFAIK no ST412-interfaced drives do, they just record it on the disk -- any drive that can handle RLL encoding can also handle MFM encoding. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 16:26:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:26:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 6, 7 05:13:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > There are minor differences, mainly due to the fact that the MDA card's > > printer port is at a different address (you can have the MDA card _and_ 2 > > printer adapters in the same machine). > > That's handy to know - every once in a while, I long for a machine > with 2 or 3 parallel adapters, for things like old Connectix cameras, > LCD displays and the like. I've never assembled an ISA machine with > more than one printer adapter. I know that it really doesn't matter > to your own code what the I/O address is, but I wasn't sure how > flexible the underlying hardware might be to being assigned to > alternate addresses. Well, you can have as may printer adapters as yopu like if you can set them all to different addresses and if you're writing your own software to talk to them... The way the BIOS looks for printer adapters (and for that matter async adapters) is quite nice IMHO. The BIOS drivers allow for up to 4 of each type of adapter, the 'base address' -- the lowest port address used by each card -- is stored in a parameter table in RAM (I can find the addresses if you want them). If you store your own values there, you can have adapters at non-standard addresses, etc. At boot-up, the BIOS (or is it the POST?) looks for rpinter adapters at 0x3bc (MDA card printer port), 0x378 (primary printer adapter) and 0x278 (secondary printer adapter) in that order. If it finds one, it stores the base address at the next location in the parameter table. So : If you have an MDA card, its printer port will always be LPT1: (no matter what other printer adapters you have). If you have one printer adapter (wherter on the MDA card, or on a separate card irrespective as to wheter that card is set to the primary or secondary address), it'll be LPT1 If you have an MDA card and one printer adapter, then the MDA card will be LPT1:, the priter adapter will be LPT2: (irrespective of whether the printer adapter is set to the primary or secondary address). Much the same applies to async cards, except that the BIOS only looks for those at 2 addresses (IIRC 30x3f8 (primary) and 0x2f8 (seconmdary)) If youy want 3 or 4 async cards, or 4 printer adapters supported by the BIOS, yoy have to store the base addresses in the parameter tables yourself. I am not sure how well documented this is. It's obvious from the BIOS source listings, but who reads those? Of coures this doesn't apply to OSes that ignore the BIOS or the parameter table. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 16:29:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <20070406234151.9ED2EBA4350@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Apr 6, 7 07:41:51 pm Message-ID: > The trick with RA80's (and Fuji Eagles, and other late 10.5"/14" > Winchesters) is to pull the HDA from the box, mount the box in > the rack, and THEN put the HDA in the box. I believe that's suggested in the user manual for the Rx80 series. It also has the advantage that if you have an 'accident' and drop the casing while you're rack-mounting it, you don't drop the most delicate part -- the HDA -- because you've removed it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 16:10:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:10:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP1858-0054 transistor array? In-Reply-To: from "Mark KAHRS" at Apr 6, 7 10:36:21 am Message-ID: > > > Just in case someone doesn't know this, you can look up any old HP part > (and now Agilent) at: > > http://www.parts.agilent.com Now that I didn't know, thanks for the URL... What's the betting that all the obscure parts I need are no longer available :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 16:35:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:35:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX02 EMI? problem found In-Reply-To: <002f01c778b8$cdc8c130$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 6, 7 09:02:31 pm Message-ID: > > It's the fan. No doubt about it, it's the fan in the back of the RX02 > causing the RL02 to fault. The fact that there are 2 very difrerent types of fan would possibly explain why some people have no problems with this arrangement of units in the rack. > > I disconnected the fan and the RL02 no longer faults upon spinup. The moment > I put the molex back on the fan of the RX02 - the RL02 immediately faults. > > I decided to take a closer look at this fan in the back of the RX02, so I > took out the 4 screws and pulled off the plastic "wedge shaped" housing. The > fan in there is one of those older odd-looking ones. Not sure how to > describe it. Instead of your "normal" muffin fan where the windings are hard It's the one I mentioned, I think > to see and they are around the hub... this is the kind where the fan hub > sits on one side of a large rectangular hunk of iron? Steel? I dunno... big > chunk of heavy metal :) > It's a normal shaded-pole motor. If you look at the stack of laminations (the 'block of iron' you mention), you'll see 2 thick copper loops round part of the pole piexces near the rotor. These act as short-circuited secondary windings (with the normal coil acting as a primary), and cause a phase shift to the change in magentic fluc on that part of the pole piece. The result is a rotating magnetic field that causes the rotor to spin. Actually, the 'muffin fan' motor works in much the same way, but it's a 'Papst motor' with the satore in the middle and a cup-shaped rotor around it (I asusme you've taken a fan apart sometime...), One of the results of this is a much lower stray external field (it's screend by the rotor). I'd try replacing it with a muffin fan. I am pretty sure it's just a normal 115V 60Hz one in your case. I can't remember if 230V RX02s use a 115V or 230V fan, I would have to check the printset, but that doesn't apply to you anyway. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 7 17:35:11 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:35:11 -0700 Subject: DEC/VG Datasystem/System Industries/Western Dynex Message-ID: <46181C9F.7040505@bitsavers.org> > I'm curious if anyone knows about VG datasystem 2000 or > System Industries. System Industries was a fairly well known manufacturer of third party disk subsystems I've seen VG Datasystems before, but I don't remember the context Maybe I'm just thinking of Vector General, though. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 7 17:38:45 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:38:45 -0700 Subject: Catweasel Message-ID: <46181D75.7070500@bitsavers.org> > I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are out there > for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, and owners must > have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them - but every time I've > dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to what kind of user community > exists to actively share code and experiences. This list would be a good place for it. I know of code that was done to read a couple of different hard-sectored formats (DG and Processor Tech) I was just looking at hacking that to read some Tektronix 8002A development system discs (hard sectored 32/trk) Intel M2FM would be very useful to read as well. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 7 17:41:15 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:41:15 -0700 Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor Message-ID: <46181E0B.8050008@bitsavers.org> > Your assumption is correct. You'll probably want the RT PC Options > Installation manual off my site: Dug around and found my hardware tech ref vol 1. Should I scan it? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 7 19:10:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 20:10:49 -0400 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic Message-ID: <0JG500E14KFL1368@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: IBM PC printer adapter schematic > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:29:29 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/7/07, Tony Duell wrote: >> I wrote: >> > That's handy to know - every once in a while, I long for a machine >> > with 2 or 3 parallel adapters, for things like old Connectix cameras, >> > LCD displays and the like. I've never assembled an ISA machine with >> > more than one printer adapter.... >> >> Well, you can have as may printer adapters as yopu like if you can set >> them all to different addresses and if you're writing your own software >> to talk to them... > >Naturally. The problem I see is that only the older cards might let >you set the printer port to respond to arbitrary addresses - the ones >I have are almost (entirely?) all of the style where you move a single >jumper for LPT1 vs LPT2 (primary vs secondary address). > >I wasn't as worried about the OS interpretation since I don't intend >to *print* to my printer port. The current system has three printer ports in it! No big deal and there are standard addesses that the OS (win or nt) recognize with no difficulty. I use three as one is dot matrix (LQ570), one Laser (HP4l) and the third is inkjet(color). I happen to be using the a PCI, ISA and mainboard based ports so where's the problem? All the ISA cards I have allow for at least two if not many more possible printer ports. And same for serial, though after two the IRQ assignments can be weird. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 16:57:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:57:19 -0700 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, , <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4617B14F.2892.3A1D25E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 13:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > Actually, I wondered this the other day; ESDI got a lot bigger (around 600MB I > think) but IIRC was pretty much the same interface. So quite what limited the > capacity of ST412 drives I'm not sure. I believe that cylinder seeking was > done by a sequence of single steps (rather than asking the drive: "seek to > this cylinder"), so there's probably an upper limit in the ST412 spec of how > fast step pulses can be sent (and beyond a certain size a drive will either > become slow as mole-asses, or some other timeout will come into play :-) ESDI uses a substantially different interface from ST412, even though the cables may resemble each other. The interface itself was much faster (15Mb/sec vs. 5Mb/sec) and IIRC, the data separator logic was located on the drive. Up to 7 drives could be addressed by a controller, though many PC controllers imposed a limitation of 2 drives (I suppose to be compatible with the WD1003-type interface). Hard-sectoring was very common and the number of sectors per track was rougly double that of ST412. I believe that the 670MB Miniscribe that I have uses something like 54 sectors/track. >From a port interface perspective, a WD1007 (and probably most other PC ESDI controllers) appears to be a spitting image of an IDE drive, complete with support for the IDENTIFY command. As a matter of fact, many OSes will mistakenly identify a WD1007+ESDI combination as an IDE drive. All in all, not a bad gizmo. etc. I think I've got WD and DTC controllers for ESDI kicking around. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 17:01:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:01:46 -0700 Subject: IBM Portable PC and a scsi drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4617B25A.6454.3A213883@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 13:49, john ball wrote: > After finding an IBM portable PC in the trash, I did the usual restoration > and now it's time to have fun. > I grabbed a Trantor T130B scsi card and set it as follows: You might try disabling the ROM temporarily and using the Trantor/Adaptec drivers and format program to set the disk up. There are two unpopulated sockets on my two T130Bs. One is a 20-pin DIP, which I suspect is probably something like an LS374 and the other is the boot ROM. For yucks, I'd love a snapshot of the ROM and affirmation of what the other upopulated socket is. In return, I could verify that your setup's right. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 17:06:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:06:33 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org>, <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4617B379.11882.3A259AAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 16:04, Jim Leonard wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the > > images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible > > network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) > > If you have an Intel Etherexpress 8/16 it will work, but you need to set > it up for 8-bit mode whilst in a 16-bit slot first, using the software > that comes with it IIRC. I've heard that most older 3com cards will > work in an 8-bit slot if you put them there, but I haven't tried it. I've got a couple of Artisoft AE-2 cards here--they've got a 16-bit ISA edge connector on them but they'll work just fine on 8 bit ISA bus. I can't believe they were the only ones that would work that way. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 17:17:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:17:08 -0700 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <461808BD.6090306@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org>, <4617A803.3080501@hawkmountain.net>, <461808BD.6090306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4617B5F4.6139.3A2F4AA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 16:10, Jim Leonard wrote: > Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Seagate ST-02 > > Aren't the ST-01 and ST-02 not ASPI compatible? I've never seen an ASPI driver for them, but then, the ST01 (no floppy connector) and ST02 (floppy connector) are the only controllers that I've ever seen that use the particular TI chip (marked 11746-501 CF61891FN). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 17:30:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:30:39 -0700 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 6, 7 05:13:45 pm, Message-ID: <4617B91F.22769.3A3BA9BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 22:26, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure how well documented this is. It's obvious from the BIOS > source listings, but who reads those? > > Of coures this doesn't apply to OSes that ignore the BIOS or the > parameter table. I believe the information's also included in the Ralf Brown interrupt document as well as the (nearly indispensible if you're interested in BIOS implementations) Phoenix Techref series. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 17:36:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:36:05 -0700 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <200704070406.l3746wkb001491@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 06, 2007 09:16:05 PM, <200704070406.l3746wkb001491@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4617BA65.13429.3A40A3FE@cclist.sydex.com> > A PPC version existed.... Which brings up a rather odd article that I found about running x86 NT 4.0 on a Mac G3: http://www.wap.org/journal/virtualnt.html Naturally, this brings up the question "Has anyone tried to the cobble up the PPC version of NT on a G3?" Anyone? Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 7 16:07:28 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 18:07:28 -0300 Subject: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? Message-ID: <01C7793F.B7C21940@mse-d03> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:20:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Ian Primus Subject: Re: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? > >Any idea why? I'd love to have a handful of 20mb 3 > 1/2" drives to use > >for various things but I never see them. > > > >I'm talking about drives from Rodime, Seagate, > Lapine, etc... cerca 1985. > > Most were unreliable, Miniscribe comes to mind. Hehe - Don't forget the wonderful Kalok Octa-gone... Octa-went. -Ian ---------------- Ah, yes, Kalok; a name that evokes many memories, none pleasant... (although in my experience the Miniscribes weren't _too_ bad) m From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 7 18:37:27 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 20:37:27 -0300 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <01C77954.AA6E0820@mse-d03> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:29:49 -0500 From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 >There were probabably a few others. I doubt there were any 3.5" >drives over 40 MB, though. Seagate ST151 and 157R, just to name two... >> The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at 190MB >> unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the number of >> cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps limitations in the PC >> BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to the number of sectors/cylinder >> and the number of platters (the 2190 had 15 or 17?) >That's certainly close to the largest, if not the absolute largest. >DEC took the XT2190 and formatted it at 154MB as the RD54. I have a >few in MicroVAXen. Much more solid than the RD53 (Micropolis 1325), >and no jumper moving required (there's a single solderable jumper that >must be installed to turn a generic 1325 into an RD53 so that the >customer-runnable formatter recognizes it). >-ethan XT1240R: 196MB (RLL2,7) vs XT2190: 159MB (MFM) m From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 18:29:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 18:29:29 -0500 Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/7/07, Tony Duell wrote: > I wrote: > > That's handy to know - every once in a while, I long for a machine > > with 2 or 3 parallel adapters, for things like old Connectix cameras, > > LCD displays and the like. I've never assembled an ISA machine with > > more than one printer adapter.... > > Well, you can have as may printer adapters as yopu like if you can set > them all to different addresses and if you're writing your own software > to talk to them... Naturally. The problem I see is that only the older cards might let you set the printer port to respond to arbitrary addresses - the ones I have are almost (entirely?) all of the style where you move a single jumper for LPT1 vs LPT2 (primary vs secondary address). I wasn't as worried about the OS interpretation since I don't intend to *print* to my printer port. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 17:04:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:04:22 -0500 Subject: IBM Portable PC and a scsi drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46181566.1000004@yahoo.co.uk> john ball wrote: > I then attached a seagate ST-296N 80+ meg hard drive, set it to ID 1 and > powered the system on. > The card detects the drive and the system addresses it as C: and then > because the drive is not formatted I have to floppy boot and patition > and format it. Do you know it's a) working and b) low-level formatted to 512 bytes/sector? I suspect DOS might just query the fact that there's a drive there, without any knowledge of whether it'd be capable of reading/writing data. > Usually what happens is that if the system can't find anything to boot > from, it will dump you into the onboard BASIC. When the card is > installed and there is nothing to boot from, I instead get "looking for > SCSI or floppy devices to boot from". Is there anyway for me to stop it > looking for something to boot from and go to BASIC? To me it really > limits me to using basic off disks. I assume the ROM on the SCSI board is taking over control of the system boot - and probably has no knowledge that BASIC is actually lurking in the host system's ROM. If you get to the point of being able to boot DOS from a SCSI disk, I bet there's a way to hop into the system's on-board BASIC via the DOS debug program... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 7 17:11:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:11:12 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <461809F7.7080901@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> <461809F7.7080901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46181700.2040400@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: >> Having CGA and VGA on the >> same machine with dual monitors would be kind of interesting. > > It certainly would be, considering that it's impossible :-) CGA and VGA > both have adapter RAM at B800:0000. That reminds me... Interrupt list (e.g. at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ralf/files.html) and scroll down a bit to "RBdualVGA": A set of programs for using two color SuperVGA cards in one PC. Includes a TSR for swapping between displays and blanking both screens when the system is not being used. .. anyone know how the heck that works? I don't get how you can even boot a system with two video boards that are going to both expect to have ROM code and ports at the same addresses. Even if you could somehow disable the BIOS on one of them, there's still a bunch of conflicting port addresses to worry about. cheers Jules From ken at seefried.com Sat Apr 7 20:27:39 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:27:39 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <200704072229.l37MSAkj043254@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704072229.l37MSAkj043254@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070408012739.28403.qmail@seefried.com> I've seen a bunch of more or less generic, 8-bit capable, allegedly bootable ISA cards based on the 53c80 & 53c90 over the years. It's a really widespread family, and it supported by many OSes. The various c90 variants were quite good for the time. I didn't spend that much time with 8-bit ISA systems, so I can't be in any way authoritative on which ones would work. The 53c400 is also 8-bit capable, and near as I can figure you can get cards with them for a penny a pound, but I've never seen one with a boot rom, and while there are claims that you can put a disk on one, I've never seen one do anything more than drive a scanner. I'm pretty sure the AIC-6260 & AIC-6360 can do 8-bit, but it's also one I've never seen with a boot rom (which means little). In fact, I've only seen one example that wasn't on a sound card. Ken From lee at geekdot.com Sat Apr 7 17:17:42 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 00:17:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ImageDisk update Message-ID: <3459.86.139.197.7.1175984262.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I believe I have an 8088 compatible network client, but all my > network cards are 16-bit etc. Most 3Com ISA cards, such as 3C509B-TPO, will work in 8 bit slots. Lee. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 21:06:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 22:06:52 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46184E3C.5090508@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >> I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run >> across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that >> anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as >> sophisticated as they got. > > I've got quite a few Rodime ones here - can't remember the model number > without going and digging them out, I'm afraid. I *think* they're 30MB. I've owned a 40MB one for years. I would like to upgrade the machine. It's a IBM PS/2 Model 50, and it's my favorite PC. Period. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 21:09:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 22:09:28 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46184ED8.5090300@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the >> images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible >> network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) > > If you have an Intel Etherexpress 8/16 it will work, but you need to set > it up for 8-bit mode whilst in a 16-bit slot first, using the software > that comes with it IIRC. I've heard that most older 3com cards will > work in an 8-bit slot if you put them there, but I haven't tried it. I have a truly gigantic pile (pile takes up more space than many of my mainframe CPU's) of 8-bit ethernet NIC's. Are they really that rare? Peace... Sridhar From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Apr 7 21:43:49 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461856E5.8040001@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: ... > I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are out > there for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, and > owners must have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them - but > every time I've dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to what kind > of user community exists to actively share code and experiences. > > (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight OS > like Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are available > for the alternatives) Join the following yahoo group: Catweasel-Dev at yahoogroups.com Jens Shoenfeld, the creator of the catweasel is active there, along with various people of varying degrees of involvement. I've written code to read (not write) PTDOS disks, and another to do hard sectored Wang disks (again read, not write). The code isn't pretty, but it worked well enough for my purposes. In both cases the code ran on a win98 box. There is a win32 driver for the catweasel, so it is possible to write code on a new machine, but I found it easy enough to poke the hardware directly. Most of the low level code was stolen from Tim Mann's trs80 disk read/write tool. The driver used to have a specific list of formats that it decoded, in the driver, but recently the author changed things to expose the low level read/write track commands at driver level, and then leave the format decoding to a user mode program (which is how it should have been all along, for my purposes). From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 22:42:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 20:42:02 -0700 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <46181700.2040400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org>, <461809F7.7080901@oldskool.org>, <46181700.2040400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4618021A.6843.3B58BC4F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2007 at 17:11, Jules Richardson wrote: > .. anyone know how the heck that works? I don't get how you can even boot a > system with two video boards that are going to both expect to have ROM code > and ports at the same addresses. Even if you could somehow disable the BIOS on > one of them, there's still a bunch of conflicting port addresses to worry about. Note that this is for "two *PCI* VGA cards". PCI differs from ISA in that addresses for ISA cards are pretty much fixed or changed by switches; PCI addresses are assigned by the BIOS; each PCI device has its own configuration registers. You can mix two ISA display adapters, but only so that there are no I/O port or address conflicts. So, two VGAs would be prohibited, but a VGA and an MDA should be a permitted combination, for example. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 22:51:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:51:57 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/7/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > [1] memory says it was a 3Com board, but memory also says it was full-length - > and I don't think that computes (looking at google, the majority of 3Com ISA > boards are short and 16-bit) Probably a 3c501. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 22:56:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:56:08 -0500 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <01C77954.AA6E0820@mse-d03> References: <01C77954.AA6E0820@mse-d03> Message-ID: On 4/7/07, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:29:49 -0500 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > > > >There were probabably a few others. I doubt there were any 3.5" > >drives over 40 MB, though. > > > Seagate ST151 and 157R, just to name two... Doh! That was supposed to read "many", not "any"... I have a largish (60MB?) MFM drive in a PS/2 Model 30 here. -ethan > >That's certainly close to the largest, if not the absolute largest. > >DEC took the XT2190 and formatted it at 154MB as the RD54. > > XT1240R: 196MB (RLL2,7) vs XT2190: 159MB (MFM) I won't dispute that the XT2190 could be formatted to 159MB, but I'm reasonably certain on a DEC controller like an RQDX3, you got 154MB after the factory badblock table, etc., was taken away at low-level format time. I did not know there was an RLL drive that large, though. I figured the world had moved on to ESDI and 5.25" SMD drives by then and stopped worrying about RLL. -ethan From bear at typewritten.org Sun Apr 8 02:49:06 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 00:49:06 -0700 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <95BB5696-D155-4119-806D-D51A1D60A39C@typewritten.org> On Apr 7, 2007, at 5:42 AM, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >> What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? > > I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ > run across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure > that anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as > sophisticated as they got. I don't know what to tell you. I had one in my first XT clone, ca. 1989. I just bought a few more because it was such a.. erm.. memorable drive. It was (is) a Miniscribe 3640. 40 MB, 3.5" HH, MFM, slow, and loud as f*#&. Just off the top of my head, I also have a Tandon TM262: 40 MB, 3.5" HH, MFM. I think there were other Miniscribe drives up to 60 or 70 MB. TheRef can verify, if it's possible even to still find a copy of it on the net. 3.5" MFM drives are not (were not) unusual, especially in the later days before IDE started to take over the world. Jeez, there are even a bunch listed in the Red Hill Guide. http://redhill.net.au/d/d-a.html ok bear From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 8 03:33:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 05:33:06 -0300 Subject: moreorlessOT: TMP68301-AF16 programming info References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <004101c779b8$be94bab0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Dear sirs, I'll have to reverse engineer parts of a computer (still don't know what it is) that uses the TMP68301-AF16 processor from Toshiba. I know the M68K uses that, but I found virtually no info besides a pinout of the processor. Anyone has a programming/hardware manual willing to share? Or any info? I'll need to have its code emulated on a PC. Thanks a lot, Alexandre Souza From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 8 03:55:20 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 05:55:20 -0300 Subject: ImageDisk update References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <4617587F.19760.38C237A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <007601c779bc$517c1f50$f0fea8c0@alpha> BTW I have a DOB in a box stored somewhere. I'm open to reasonable offers if someone is willing to get it. Thanks Alexandre Souza From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 8 05:03:30 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 11:03:30 +0100 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4618BDF2.8060305@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2007 18:29, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/7/07, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> > John Kourafas wrote: >> >> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen >> both the >> >> ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... >> > >> > What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? >> >> I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run >> across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that >> anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated >> as they got. > > Tandon 262 > Miniscribe 8425 > The infamous Kalok Octagon KL-230 > > There were probabably a few others. I doubt there were any 3.5" > drives over 40 MB, though. I've got a pair of 3.5" Rodime RO3065 drives which are 50MB MFM (ST412 interface, and not RLL). I've got a few other ST412/MFM 3.5" drives: NEC D3142 (42MB) Western Digital WD384 (10MB) Seagate ST125 (20MB) Tandon TM362 (10MB) and I used to have a Seagate 40MB and a Rodime 10MB, but both died. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 8 07:12:15 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:12:15 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704081015.l38AFeY4030124@hosting.monisys.ca> >> I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the >> images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible >> network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) > > If you have an Intel Etherexpress 8/16 it will work, but you need to set > it up for 8-bit mode whilst in a 16-bit slot first, using the software > that comes with it IIRC. I've heard that most older 3com cards will > work in an 8-bit slot if you put them there, but I haven't tried it. Ok - I should have said "configured for 16-bit" - I'm sure that some of my network card will operate in 8-bit- I just have to figure out which ones, find the docs and/or configuration utility, finf the 8-bit client etc. etc. ... Doable - just more work than I'd like - thanks to all for all the card suggestions. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 8 07:15:07 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:15:07 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46180817.5080207@oldskool.org> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcf0009456@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704081018.l38AIVlw030446@hosting.monisys.ca> > With wait states and cache turned off (INTERNAL cache, not L2, see the > ICD.COM util I mentioned earlier) my 486 is slower than my 5150. So you > probably missed the internal cache step. Shouldn't be slower - it's clocked faster and it's a 32 bit bus instead of 8 ... The BIOS on this machine has an option for disabling both the L2 and internal caches, but I'm guessing that the one for internal doesn't work - It has no discernable effect and I would have expected much more than that - I'll check ou your ICD program. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 8 07:23:29 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:23:29 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> > I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are out there > for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, and owners must > have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them - but every time I've > dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to what kind of user community > exists to actively share code and experiences. Yeah - I've noticed that too. And a lot of what I have found seems incomplete.. Just enough to read this one particular format etc... > (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight OS like > Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are available for the > alternatives) Main reason I haven't gotten one yet. PCI card with winblows drivers... Soon as you have to go into that "complexity for the sake of complexity" environment, things go a LOT slower - and I just don't have time (or desire) to deal with it. > I don't mind hacking code together if I have to - but I really don't want to > be hacking the same code together that every other single owner has also had > to hack together; that's just a waste... :-) Agreed - I'm surprised someone hasn't put together a good "image/restore anything" package for it ... Or is such a beast available? I admit I have not looked all that hard yet... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 8 07:20:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 08:20:53 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > From: "Steven N. Hirsch" > Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> John Kourafas wrote: >>> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both the >>> ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... >> >> What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? > >I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run >across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that >anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated >as they got. I have several miniscribe 20mb in all flavors of interface st412, SCSI and IDE. I have some really old 3.5" WD 10mb. to name a few. They show up around the beginning of the IDE era but by time IDE hit 40mb they seemed to have disappeared. Allison From ballsandy at msn.com Sun Apr 8 07:47:06 2007 From: ballsandy at msn.com (john ball) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 05:47:06 -0700 Subject: IBM Portable PC and a scsi drive (john Ball) Message-ID: >There are two unpopulated sockets on my two T130Bs. One is a 20-pin DIP, >which I suspect is probably something like an LS374 and the other is the >boot ROM. For yucks, I'd love a snapshot of the ROM and affirmation of >what the other upopulated socket is. In return, I could verify that your >setup's right. The URL below links to a photograph http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/T130B.jpg >Do you know it's a) working and b) low-level formatted to 512 bytes/sector? A) yes B) no >I suspect DOS might just query the fact that there's a drive there, without any knowledge of whether it'd be capable of reading/writing data. ??? >I assume the ROM on the SCSI board is taking over control of the system >boot - and probably has no knowledge that BASIC is actually lurking in the >host system's ROM. If you get to the point of being able to boot DOS from a >SCSI disk, I bet there's a way to hop into the system's on-board BASIC via >the DOS debug program... Well I gurss I have no choice but to get to basic through DOS. It means lugging an extra disk but I'll do anything to get the onboard BASIC. _________________________________________________________________ Check Out Our List Of Trendy Restaurants. You'll Eat It Up! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!378 From bear at typewritten.org Sun Apr 8 05:35:18 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 03:35:18 -0700 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <95BB5696-D155-4119-806D-D51A1D60A39C@typewritten.org> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> <95BB5696-D155-4119-806D-D51A1D60A39C@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <9F1B42A2-8F4E-4D5E-9459-9C37219F94C8@typewritten.org> On Apr 8, 2007, at 12:49 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > I don't know what to tell you. I had one in my first XT clone, ca. > 1989. I just bought a few more because it was such a.. erm.. > memorable drive. It was (is) a Miniscribe 3640. 40 MB, 3.5" HH, > MFM, slow, and loud as f*#&. Just off the top of my head, I also > have a Tandon TM262: 40 MB, 3.5" HH, MFM. DUH. Geez, I rag on people for doing this very thing. The 3640 is a 5.25" HH device. The drive I was speaking of is the Miniscribe 8450. (I made this mistake almost constantly, as I was trying to find them recently.) ok bear From jclang at notms.net Sun Apr 8 07:22:51 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 08:22:51 -0400 Subject: ccs 2718a In-Reply-To: <4617BEAA.4060804@sbcglobal.net> References: <4617823C.1060804@notms.net> <4617BEAA.4060804@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4618DE9B.6030309@notms.net> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > joe lang wrote: > >> Does anyone have any documents for the ccs 2718a 2 serial/2 parallel >> s-100 card, I've googled and found nothing. >> >> thanks >> joe lang >> > > I have a copy on my web site here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/csc2718.pdf > > And a slightly better copy of the schematic here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/ccs_2718_sch.jpg > > Bob > Thank you Bob. That's exactly what I needed. I got a stripped 2718 board on e-bay I'm trying to restore it. I just could not figure out the EPROM control. (how to disable) The docs have answered that. And many other questions. joe From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Apr 8 15:22:09 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:22:09 +0100 Subject: DEC Manuals available In-Reply-To: <8B062B3779FAD642B3447E22ACE56961EE395E@mail-server.maganclinic.com> Message-ID: <00b701c77a1b$96b098d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Ronnie Lane wrote: > Hello. I was wondering if you still have the DEC LG01 operators > guide available? It is model: Ek-OLG01-IN-003 The tech manual is here: http://vt100.net/mirror/mds-199909/cd3/printer/olg01tm2.pdf I also have EK-OLG01-UG-003 "LG01 600 LPM Text Printer User's Guide" locally and I could email you a copy if required. I expect that between these two they would cover most of what you need. Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/751 - Release Date: 07/04/2007 22:57 From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 8 08:33:50 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:33:50 -0400 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <002101c779e2$8c12ca80$0100a8c0@screamer> I don't seem to have the 'exact' data requested, but I can come close. I'm looking at the 1969 HP catalog. This is too early for the 2100A but it does document the prices for the HP2116B. I was looking for 2100 or 2116C prices, as the 2100 uses 2116C core modules. No luck finding that pricing data so far, but here is what I have: (1969 catalog prices) HP2116B with 8K words $24,000 HP2116B with 16K words $34,000 Pricing for the 24K and 32K configurations were 'available upon request'. Note that 8K words of HP core did not always add $10,000 to the price! HP2114A with 4K words $9,950 HP2114A with 8K words $13,950 Note that the 2114 uses slower core than the 2116 / 2100. (HP2116 3.2us to store 16 bits, HP2114/5 4.0 us to store 16 bits) Here is the same info for the very rare HP2115: HP2115A with 4K words $14,500 HP2115A with 8K words $19,500 Overall, the 1969 pricing was about $1,000 for 1024 words of 17 bits per word, sometimes higher for faster memory. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:45 AM Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices >I just received a question from a fellow interested in the pricing of core >memory: > > "How much did this memory cost per bit, byte, or word? I am doing a > historical storyboard on the HP2100A used as the data processing system > for > the HP5930A mass spectrometer and I would like to get some hard data on > costs > of core memory." > > Would someone (likely candidates: Jay, Bob :) ) have period price info for > a > core memory module for the HP2100A? > > I will pass on responses as well as suggest that he may wish to > temporarily > join the list to ask other questions about the HP2100A. > I will also pass on the email addresses of responders (please indicate if > you > don't wish me to do so) should he prefer to address questions directly to > those > more knowledgeable about the HP2100 than I. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 15:34:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:34:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC printer adapter schematic In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 7, 7 06:29:29 pm Message-ID: > > Well, you can have as may printer adapters as yopu like if you can set > > them all to different addresses and if you're writing your own software > > to talk to them... > > Naturally. The problem I see is that only the older cards might let > you set the printer port to respond to arbitrary addresses - the ones That's an issue of the cards, not the system :-) In my experience, most printer adapters only let you set 0x378 and 0x278. Some also allowed 0x3bc, but very few allowed other addresses. If it's just a simple printer card (as opposed to a multi-I/O thing), or if it's mostly discrete logic, you can use an inverter to change the state of one of the address lines to shift it to some other address. But if it's a multi-I/O card with all the logic in one ASIC, doing that will move other I/O systems to other addresses which may well not be desirable. I once saw an async card (I think it was Olivetti) were there was a whole bank of links to set the address. The instructions gave the settings for a few standard addresses. It was pretty obvious (confirmed by tracing out part of th eschematic) that the links actually defined the states of A3..A9, and you could set it to any address you liked -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 8 14:05:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 12:05:55 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk>, <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4618DAA3.13084.3EA68EBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2007 at 7:23, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Main reason I haven't gotten one yet. PCI card with winblows drivers... > Soon as you have to go into that "complexity for the sake of complexity" > environment, things go a LOT slower - and I just don't have time (or > desire) to deal with it. PCI with the Catweasel doesn't imply Windows or any other high-level OS. Using the PCI BIOS PNP services under real-mode MS-DOS to identify the I/O ports is quite simple and gives you freedom from worrying about configuration switches. I have both ISA and PCI catweasels and find no real difference in the difficulty of programming them (although there are differences in the way the ports are defined). Additionally, you CAN write your own 32 bit real mode code (DJGPP) using a DPMI server. Given that the track buffer on a CW is about (IIRC) 128K, this actually makes a lot of sense, when you're sucking in a track and working with it. I mean, what else are you going to do with half a gig of memory-- run Windows? ;-) Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 8 15:05:59 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 21:05:59 +0100 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing Message-ID: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just dug my not-even-a-tenth-finished floppy disc raw-reader out of the cupboard, the plan being to finish it off. Problem is, I'm not seeing any signals coming out of the floppy drive - all the outputs are stuck high. What I've got is: - All odd numbered pins on the IDC34 tied to ground - All I/O lines from the floppy raised to +5V via two 4k7 resistor packs - /MOTORA and /DS0 wired together, and grounded via a switch - A Sony MPF520E floppy drive, HP badged, jumpered for automatic density selection and DS0 (drive 0) I can step the head in and out fine, and the motor seems to be spinning (the drive's activity light is on at least). What I can't get is any form of output from the drive - even /INDEX is stuck floating high (FWICT it should pulse once for every revolution of the disc, i.e. about once per half-second or so). Am I violating some timing parameter or basic rule here? I honestly can't see any reason why the drive would seek fine, but not return any data or index pulses. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Apr 8 08:40:03 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:40:03 -0400 Subject: bulk erase floppies for use with putr? Message-ID: <376FA821-8D16-4EF1-9DAC-FB70C1A706C1@xlisper.com> I have a Windows 98SE system setup with a 1.2mb 5.25" floppy drive for running putr to create disks to use on my PDP-11/73 system. I seem to remember someone suggesting that it was best to bulk erase the DSDD 5.25" floppies before attempting to format and use them with putr. Is that correct? I've been having trouble with putr and I'm wondering if it is due to my failure to bulk erase the floppies before using them. Also, is it necessary to start Win98SE in "DOS mode" to run putr or can putr be run from the DOS prompt from within Win98SE? Thanks, David From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 8 11:56:26 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 13:56:26 -0300 Subject: ImageDisk update Message-ID: <01C779E5.B5AC7B40@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:12:15 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: ImageDisk update >> I was afraid of that - Getting a 5160 to network (to get the >> images off) is a little painful - I believe I have an 8088 compatible >> network client, but all my network cards are 16-bit etc.) >Ok - I should have said "configured for 16-bit" - I'm sure that some of >my network card will operate in 8-bit- I just have to figure out which >ones, find the docs and/or configuration utility, finf the 8-bit client >etc. etc. ... Doable - just more work than I'd like - thanks to all for >all the card suggestions. >Dave --------------------- Interlink/Interserver? Laplink? PC-Anywhere/DOS? Hardly any work at all... m From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 8 09:33:43 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 09:33:43 -0500 Subject: catweasel (was: ImageDisk update) In-Reply-To: <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4618FD47.3020607@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote in response to Jules Richardson (I think): ... >> (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight OS like >> Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are available for the >> alternatives) > > Main reason I haven't gotten one yet. PCI card with winblows drivers... > Soon as you have to go into that "complexity for the sake of complexity" > environment, things go a LOT slower - and I just don't have time (or > desire) to deal with it. You aren't forced to use the drivers; you can do direct register level access under windows98, or 95, or dos. The driver is needed only under xp because of the need to do hardware level access. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 8 09:26:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 09:26:52 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4618FBAC.4080300@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are out there >> for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, and owners must >> have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them - but every time I've >> dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to what kind of user community >> exists to actively share code and experiences. > > Yeah - I've noticed that too. And a lot of what I have found seems incomplete.. > Just enough to read this one particular format etc... Yep. Whenever I've dug around on the 'net there seems to be lots of "friend of a friend did this" type info, but very little first-hand. It worried me to be honest, because it gives the impression that people buy the cards and can't get them to work properly. >> (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight OS like >> Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are available for the >> alternatives) > > Main reason I haven't gotten one yet. PCI card with winblows drivers... > Soon as you have to go into that "complexity for the sake of complexity" > environment, things go a LOT slower - and I just don't have time (or > desire) to deal with it. I hear ya. I don't recall there being much in the way of online documentation for the card at all from the people who make the thing; again, it doesn't give a lot of confidence. My only reason for getting one is that there isn't currently an alternative. >> I don't mind hacking code together if I have to - but I really don't want to >> be hacking the same code together that every other single owner has also had >> to hack together; that's just a waste... :-) > > Agreed - I'm surprised someone hasn't put together a good "image/restore > anything" package for it ... Or is such a beast available? I admit I have not > looked all that hard yet... You'll probably find that a friend of a friend of a friend wrote one once, but they didn't document it, didn't release it into the public domain, and it never worked right anyway :-) That may be unfair, but that's what the level of user community surrounding the thing feels like. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 8 09:30:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 09:30:12 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461856E5.8040001@pacbell.net> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> <461856E5.8040001@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4618FC74.8050100@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > ... >> I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are >> out there for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, >> and owners must have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them >> - but every time I've dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to >> what kind of user community exists to actively share code and >> experiences. >> >> (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight >> OS like Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are >> available for the alternatives) > > Join the following yahoo group: Catweasel-Dev at yahoogroups.com > > Jens Shoenfeld, the creator of the catweasel is active there, along with > various people of varying degrees of involvement. Aha - I will try that, thanks. > I've written code to read (not write) PTDOS disks, and another to do > hard sectored Wang disks (again read, not write). Writing would be nice - but I'm more concerned about preserving media before it dies than anything; being able to recreate it can take a back seat if it has to! > recently the author changed things to expose the low level read/write > track commands at driver level, and then leave the format decoding to a > user mode program (which is how it should have been all along, for my > purposes). That seems the sensible way to do it to me too; operate at the track level when talking to the low-level driver, with all the serious decoding / encoding done within a user-space app. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 11:21:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:21:09 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <63DF271A-2704-4700-862F-DCA3BB33A82D@neurotica.com> On Apr 7, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >> John Kourafas wrote: >>> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen >>> both the ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I >>> think is crazy... >> >> What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? > > I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ > run across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure > that anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as > sophisticated as they got. No, they definitely exist, I've installed a great many of them into machines years ago. The company I worked for sold a lot of PeeCees (my karma just hasn't been the same) and we used a HardCard knock-off extensively; it was a 3.5" MFM drive bolted to a frame attached to an MFM controller. I *think* the drive was made by Miniscribe but I am not sure about that. It was a 20MB drive. > The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at > 190MB unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the > number of cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps > limitations in the PC BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to > the number of sectors/cylinder and the number of platters (the 2190 > had 15 or 17?) I believe this is correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 11:34:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:34:52 -0400 Subject: DEC/VG Datasystem/System Industries/Western Dynex In-Reply-To: <000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <868E0189-96C4-4CCD-86F3-FCC0AFA5718C@neurotica.com> On Apr 7, 2007, at 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > There was a rackmount box (removed from rack but available). I > believe it to be a disk controller of some sort. It had a tag on it > saying "RKA1-3, RKB1-3, SYS & DSK?" {the DSK was fuzzy, may not > have that right). On the rear is a 2 position toggle switch marked > "NORMAL" and "FORMAT". The front of the unit said System > Industries, and on the back it said "Model 3040-3051". From the > back of this box were about 4 or so long ribbon cables that I was > told went to the disk drives (can't verify this for sure). The RKA1-3, RKB1-3, SYS, DSK business sounds like OS/8 to me! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 11:47:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:47:15 -0400 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Austin Pass wrote: >> So...does anyone, umm, have it? ;) >> > > Any NT4.0 Media will install on Alpha, MIPS, PPC etc. (Well, I can > confirm > that the PPC one will, anyway, and there are Alpha and MIPS folders > there in > addition to the usual i386). Oh wow, I didn't know that...I guess I had assumed that there were separate distributions for the different architectures. Neat! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Apr 8 10:04:16 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM RT with 5085 graphics processor In-Reply-To: <4617EAED.9030107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4616843D.6000008@yahoo.co.uk> <4617EAED.9030107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Apr 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > r.stricklin wrote: >> >> On Apr 6, 2007, at 10:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> I picked up a very nice RT system the other day from a list member which >>> includes the 5085 graphics processor and 5081 colour display. We've just >>> been setting it up today (or trying to), and an obvious question arises... >> >> Dang, I'm jealous. I've been looking for a 5080 attachment adapter for RT, >> PS/2 or RS/6000 for a while now. > > Well I shan't gloat - I'm not even sure how alive the system is yet :-) The > 5085 passes diags and boots OK, so that side is good - but I've not got to > the RT side of things yet, other than to verify that the PSU is healthy and > that the CPU and memory pass diags. > > The big problem is IBM's use of ESDI hard disks - if those are toast then, > whilst I think there's enough floppy media to reinstall AIX, coming by a > replacement ESDI drive (and more importantly an ESDI drive that AIX supports) > will be interesting. If you can locate an old, dumb ISA --> ATA interface card and an ATA drive of similar vintage (I have a 1GB seagate), it should work just fine as an "ST412" disk subsystem. Steve -- From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Apr 8 10:07:54 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <01C7793C.7899EA20@mse-d03> References: <01C7793C.7899EA20@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Apr 2007, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Steven N. Hirsch" > Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > >> I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run >> across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that >> anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated >> as they got. > >> Steve > > ---------------- > Not a very extensive collection then ;-) > > Almost everybody made 'em; Miniscribe 8425, Seagate ST125, etc. etc. > I've got a box full here. Well, I've been known to be wrong :-). Seriously, though, in all my digging around at flea-markets and junk scrounging I've never run across one of these. I'll have to keep my eyes open. Steve -- From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 8 13:31:25 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:31:25 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <46181700.2040400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> <461809F7.7080901@oldskool.org> <46181700.2040400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461934FD.4030306@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > .. anyone know how the heck that works? I don't get how you can even "System Requirements: A PCI-bus computer with two PCI-bus VGA cards installed." PCI bus. That's how. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 8 13:37:47 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:37:47 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46184ED8.5090300@gmail.com> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> <46184ED8.5090300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4619367B.203@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I have a truly gigantic pile (pile takes up more space than many of my > mainframe CPU's) of 8-bit ethernet NIC's. Are they really that rare? Nothing is rare until you need it. For example, to this day I still don't have a Hercules mono card or 8-bit ISA SCSI card with a boot ROM, and I've got at least 200 pounds of loose parts. And I've only got one 5153 CGA monitor to my name while others claim they have them stacked in a corner (!). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 8 13:41:52 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:41:52 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <007601c779bc$517c1f50$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <4617587F.19760.38C237A6@cclist.sydex.com> <007601c779bc$517c1f50$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46193770.4020902@oldskool.org> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > BTW I have a DOB in a box stored somewhere. I'm open to reasonable > offers if someone is willing to get it. I think now is a good time to mention that I've seen some confusion here regarding OB models. There were three option boards. The first was a more complex card and looked like this: http://retro.icequake.net/dob/img/ob-box-1.jpg The second was mostly a single IC (the "deluxe" option board) and looked like this: http://retro.icequake.net/dob/img/dob1.png Finally, there was a third "enhanced" board with support for disks with laser holes in them, looking like this: http://retro.icequake.net/dob/img/eob.jpg -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 8 13:45:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:45:19 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704081015.l38AFeY4030124@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704081015.l38AFeY4030124@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4619383F.1070106@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > ones, find the docs and/or configuration utility, finf the 8-bit client No client needed unless you want to screw with netware or samba... That is so much of a hassle that I just use the packet driver with NCSA telnet, which contains an FTP server and I just FTP stuff on/off the machine that way. It also takes a script, so that's how I back up the machine (batch file creates an archive, then that archive is FTP'd up to my server). Don't expect blazing speeds though. 30KB/s is a reasonable target for an 808x machine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 8 16:21:54 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 17:21:54 -0400 Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:40:07 CDT." <000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200704082121.l38LLsNK029561@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: ... >DEC H960 Rack with 861C power controller ... Which reminds me. I plugged in an 861C yesterday. The breaker seemed a bit "dodgie" as they say, and didn't seem to want to stay on. I finally got it to stay on but when I plugged it in I got a loud buzzing sound from inside the "box". The switch was set to "local". There was nothing else plugged in and the breaker didn't pop but I didn't like the sound and unplugged it. I've never opened an 861C up - what's inside? I would have thought it was just A/C distribution but I guess there must be a relay come to think of it. I really like all those nice a/c plugs. Guess I should open it up and see what's buzzing. -brad From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 8 15:28:00 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:28:00 +0100 Subject: ST506 References: , <46156089.209@harrells.net> <461549E0.15737.30B91D01@cclist.sydex.com><4616467B.7050408@harrells.net> <4616EACB.9000700@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <017201c77a21$18f46dd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > While I've never done it, I'd imagine this would be OK. I know people >who formatted MFM drives with RLL controllers. Most worked OK.. but I >think some had problems longer term. As Chuck explains in a later message, this normally works fine as long as you use good quailty drives. I did this with many drives in the early 90's (before I switched to SCSI) and only ever had problems with two drives - and that was limited to a few bad sectors which weren't apparent when formatted with an MFM controller. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 8 15:07:52 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:07:52 +0100 Subject: 68000 winnt References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org><00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <017001c77a21$18b65360$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....I've run it on the IBM Sandalfoot (PowerPersonal, not exactly an >RS/6000), ThinkPad PowerPC, and Motorola PowerStack. I think I've heard >of it also running on the 7025-F50, but don't quote me on it. Sounds like I'm out of luck then, my RS/6000 is a "Powerserver 7013"; AIX it is then.... > It's a pointless exercise as there really isn't any software >available for it. Good point, though for what I had in mind just the stuff supplied with the OS (NT4.0 Server) probably would have sufficed. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 8 15:16:26 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:16:26 +0100 Subject: 68000 winnt References: Message-ID: <017101c77a21$18d30320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Probably on a CHRP PPC box (Common Hardware Reference Platform).... >....The same hardware was supposed to be able to run Mac OS, OS/2, >AIX, and I think WinNT.... That's interesting, I came across mention of that architecture recently when checking out what platforms one of the free BSD variants ran on. Is there anywhere I can find out a bit more about CHRP? BTW I was a big fan of OS/2 back in the day, wonders what the chances of installing OS/2 Warp on an RS/6000 are....LMAO? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 8 15:34:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:34:08 +0100 Subject: ST506 References: , <4616EACB.9000700@hawkmountain.net>, <46175C71.23442.38D1A211@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <017301c77a21$19136780$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > On the subject of old 3.5" hard disks--many of the early ones >had miserable reliability.... I used to collect Apricot machines, the single biggest problem I had with those was the 3.5" Rodime hard drives they used. When you got a good one they were solid as a rock, but most of the ones I came across were "flaky" at best.... >....In particular, some of the early Conner drives would simply >begin showing rapidly progressing media errors until they were >practically unusable. ISTR one batch of early Conner IDE drives where they'd painted the arm carrying the r/w heads. After a while the paint started flaking off, and, well you do the math.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 8 16:24:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:24:04 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4618DAA3.13084.3EA68EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk>, <200704081026.l38AQsqr031693@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618DAA3.13084.3EA68EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46195D74.5040200@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Apr 2007 at 7:23, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Main reason I haven't gotten one yet. PCI card with winblows drivers... >> Soon as you have to go into that "complexity for the sake of complexity" >> environment, things go a LOT slower - and I just don't have time (or >> desire) to deal with it. > > PCI with the Catweasel doesn't imply Windows or any other high-level > OS. No - but when I last trawled the web for info on the CW (about a year ago) I was getting the impression that what little "officially sanctioned" documentation and example code there was out there was squarely aimed at Windows. I'm not sure what work users have done with the board under DOS. I know I saw rumour of a Linux kernel driver - but for what board revision / firmware I don't know. It's a shame these sorts of things aren't (apparently) fed back into the main site for the board ( actually, the "main site" seems to read more like something pulled up via the Wayback machine rather than a site for a current product!) "The Catweasel MK4 will be available starting october 2004." <-- I assume that actually happened? Or did it die a death and the (no longer available, according to the front page of the website) MK3 board is the current product? Jim's comment about register level access is interesting - question to you both: how well-documented is this method of controlling the board? > I mean, what else are you going to do with half a gig of memory-- > run Windows? ;-) Run a thousand or so emulated Sinclair Spectrums, virtually network them together, then take over the world? :-) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 8 16:29:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 16:29:40 -0500 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca> <002101c779e2$8c12ca80$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <002201c77a25$04a688f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob supplied some excellent information - if I read it right his is based on the delta between various configuration prices rather than standalone field-addon prices (which may or may not be different!) or individual initial purchase prices. I have individual 8K core board pricing, but it is also possible my pricing is different because of the date of the information. My source is HP mfg. part no 5952-5532, printed 2/77, with "Prices Effective April 1". The publication is "HP 21MX computers Price Information". It also has 2100 cpu, interfaces, and peripherals. This pricelist is rather nice because it includes pricing on all the cabinets and misc. other stuff too - including monthly maintenance costs, cpu slots required, current draw, and prerequisites. 12885A 8K memory modules for field expansion were $3200 list, $16 monthly maintenance. Additional options (at no cost) were: -002 4k words to 12k words or 8k words to 16k words -003 16k words to 24k words -004 24k words to 32k words Along the same lines, I thought I'd provide the cpu pricing of the time for comparison to Bobs info & dates to put it in to time-line perspective. 2100A computer, including programmers console, extended arithemetic instructions, memory parity check with interrupt, power fail interrupt with automatic restart, and memory protect was $11,000 list, $85 monthly maintenance. Note that this was either with no memory or 4k, the pricelist isn't completely clear on this. Options were as follows: -008 computer with 8K memory $2500 list, $16 monthly maintenance -012 computer with 12K memory $4500 list, $24 monthly maintenance -016 computer with 16K memory $5000 list, $32 monthly maintenance -024 computer with 24K memory $7500 list, $49 monthly maintenance -032 computer with 32K memory $10,000 list, $65 monthly maintenance 2100S computer, including programmers console, extended arithmetic instructions, memory parity check with interrupt, power fail/automatic restart, memory protect, 16K words of memory, floating point instructions, DMA, Time Base Generator, and TTY interface was $16300 list, $12 monthly maintenance. Options were as follows: -024 24K memory was $2500 list, no increase in monthly maintenance -032 32K memory was $5000 list, no increase in monthly maintenance Brent wrote... >> "How much did this memory cost per bit, byte, or word? I am doing a >> historical storyboard on the HP2100A used as the data processing system >> for the HP5930A mass spectrometer and I would like to get some hard data >> on costs of core memory." Well, in 1977, you can bank on the above being "hard data". Each word on the 8K core boards was 17 bits (16 data an 1 for parity). Guess you could calculate it with or without parity. Brent wrote.... >> I will also pass on the email addresses of responders (please indicate if >> you >> don't wish me to do so) should he prefer to address questions directly to >> those >> more knowledgeable about the HP2100 than I. I'm always happy to talk to anyone about the HP 2100's :) Feel free to give him my contact information, direct email address, etc. The pricelist I'm quoting from above is fairly complete and would allow pricing of a complete system with all interfaces, cabinets, etc. including monthly maintenance. Best regards, Jay West From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 16:04:35 2007 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 22:04:35 +0100 Subject: Apple Macintosh 840av + Radius Video Vision Pro etc. In-Reply-To: <3459.86.139.197.7.1175984262.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3459.86.139.197.7.1175984262.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <00e301c77a21$84a258d0$3201a8c0@hal> Hi, I don't know if a 1993 machine is "Classic" or not... Please bear with me if this is a bit OT. I have a motherboard from an Apple Macintosh 840av with CPU (68040/40) and some RAM. Also, there's a Radius Video Vision board with extra RAM and a "Pro Upgrade" daughter board with breakout box for S-Video In/Out + RCA audio ports. There is also a SCSI-2 card and an Ethernet card with thin coax and an AUI port. All the cards are NuBus and were spares for a long defunct animation studio, cosmetically all the cards/motherboard look new. Question is... Anyone in the UK want them? Collection from Cambridge, contact me off list. Cheers Dave ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 8 16:41:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:41:47 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > I've just dug my not-even-a-tenth-finished floppy disc raw-reader out > of the cupboard, the plan being to finish it off. That's weird. That's three of us separately suddenly fiddling with this again (personally I suddenly stumbled across enough SRAM the other day for a raw, over-sampled track buffer, which rekindled my interest in actually Getting Something Done). > - All I/O lines from the floppy raised to +5V via two 4k7 resistor packs Hmmm, the SA-400 manual says that the lines should be terminated by 150 ohms to +5V on the last drive in the chain. Output line 'true' from the drive is logical zero, 0.0V to 0.4V, 48mA maximum. Output line 'false' is logical one, +2.5V to +5.25V, 250uA maximum. Doubtless the manual's available in electronic form somewhere on the 'net - probably on Bitsavers. > I can step the head in and out fine, and the motor seems to be spinning > (the drive's activity light is on at least). What I can't get is any > form of output from the drive - even /INDEX is stuck floating high > (FWICT it should pulse once for every revolution of the disc, i.e. about > once per half-second or so). 300RPM would be a 5Hz pulse rate, 360RPM would be 6Hz, so a bit more than that. cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 8 18:26:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:26:48 -0700 Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? Message-ID: <46197A38.1040204@bitsavers.org> The filter cap has probably failed in the DC pilot circuit. I have one pulled apart with the same (apparently common) problem. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 8 16:46:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:46:23 -0700 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4619003F.278.3F39795E@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2007 at 21:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I can step the head in and out fine, and the motor seems to be spinning (the > drive's activity light is on at least). What I can't get is any form of output > from the drive - even /INDEX is stuck floating high (FWICT it should pulse > once for every revolution of the disc, i.e. about once per half-second or so). Actually, about 5 times per second. Some drives won't output any signals until the onboard controller is satsified that the drive is ready (i.e. that it sees an index pulse every 200 msec). I don't know if Sony's one of them, but I've seen it. Similarly, the drive must be satisfied that the disk is seated in the drive. I've got a Toshiba floppy drive that has a problem seating the diskette firmly and it simply returns--nothing and the FDC thinks that the drive's not ready. So, the first thing I'd do is check to see if the drive thinks there's a diskette inserted. You can step the heads in and out because there's no requirement that the drive be ready (or even have a disk inserted) before the heads can be moved. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 8 16:45:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:45:13 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46184ED8.5090300@gmail.com> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618074E.2040703@oldskool.org> <46184ED8.5090300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46196269.303@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I have a truly gigantic pile (pile takes up more space than many of my > mainframe CPU's) of 8-bit ethernet NIC's. Are they really that rare? They're rare because you have the world's stockpile ;-) They probably are reasonably uncommon these days, because they've mostly been chucked out during upgrades (I've found the same problem in trying to locate a HD 5.25" floppy drive this last week) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 8 16:50:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:50:28 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <461934FD.4030306@oldskool.org> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org> <00a501c7793f$34a04e10$0b01a8c0@game> <461809F7.7080901@oldskool.org> <46181700.2040400@yahoo.co.uk> <461934FD.4030306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <461963A4.2070706@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> .. anyone know how the heck that works? I don't get how you can even > > "System Requirements: A PCI-bus computer with two PCI-bus VGA cards > installed." I can understand the bus handling it - but I would have thought every PC BIOS out there is written to expect a single video card on the PCI bus at boot time and to throw a major fit when it finds what *it* thinks is a conflict. Maybe I'm wrong; my assumption was that the BIOS would scan the bus and say something like: "ahh, you're a such-and-such class of hardware, locate your I/O here please" and would then choke when it tried to stick two video boards in the same place. Obviously it doesn't work like that though or that code wouldn't have been written :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 8 17:56:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 15:56:22 -0700 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <63DF271A-2704-4700-862F-DCA3BB33A82D@neurotica.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, , <63DF271A-2704-4700-862F-DCA3BB33A82D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <461910A6.16149.3F798BB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2007 at 12:21, Dave McGuire wrote: >> > The largest MFM drive ever made was _probably_ the Maxtor 2190 at > > 190MB unformatted. ISTR that there was a logical limit to the > > number of cylinders due to the control protocol (or perhaps > > limitations in the PC BIOSes of the time) and physical limits to > > the number of sectors/cylinder and the number of platters (the 2190 > > had 15 or 17?) PC BIOSes generally supported only 1024 cylinders, but some BIOSes extended the cylinder number by using a couple of high order bits in the DH (head) register. So you could use your Maxtor XT2190 with 1224 cylinders if you knew how. 16 cylinders was the only hard controller limit; but even the XT2190 used only 15 heads (as did the Atasi/Priam 519). The controller sector register is 8 bits wide, giving one a possiblity of 256 sectors per track and the cylinder was specified by a 16 bit register pair, so the limit there would be 65536. The issue that doomed MFM was the slow data transfer rate (5MHz). The only reasonable way to put more sectors on a track (other than using RLL) would have been to slow the spindle speed. MFM/ST412 just got too old. Several ST412 interface drives had enough slop in the interface to insert an extra 256 byte sector on cylinder 0 to record the drive geometry. This was usually called sector 0, but any sector number could have been used outside of the normal BIOS range. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 8 18:17:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:17:06 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46195D74.5040200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4618DAA3.13084.3EA68EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <46195D74.5040200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46191582.5942.3F8C860F@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2007 at 16:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > No - but when I last trawled the web for info on the CW (about a year ago) I > was getting the impression that what little "officially sanctioned" > documentation and example code there was out there was squarely aimed at Windows. There is definitely a register-level description and source code for the MK3 out there that shows how to get the PCI resource values from the BIOS. There's also a bunch of source code for the MK I. Myself, I use my own code to drive the cards; I've never needed code from others. The interface to the card is brutally simple--unless the MK4 has added some additional stuff. You step the drive by setting the direction and pulsing the step line. None of this fancy stuff where the CW actually remembers the current cylinder number. About the only thing the CW will do for you is wait and collect data when the the index pulse goes active--and then will stop when the index pulse goes active again. There's a 128K SRAM that holds the data until you're ready to read it back via programmed I/O. The index feature may not be of particular value for some diskettes-- I've got some formats here that don't use the index for anything-- they just start formatting wherever the disk happens to be in its rotation. Generally, I'll collect data under DOS real mode (although Win 9x works okay) and then digest it with a 32-bit program. The data from the catweasel is basically a series of counts between pulses. It's a bit difficult looking at a data stream from the CW and figuring out what you're looking at. I've got a little Windows utility that takes any track and plots the data on a time axis, changing from 1 to 0 with every pulse. The graphical representation really helps to figure things out, particularly when dealing with someone's idea of GCR. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 8 17:51:46 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 23:51:46 +0100 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > That's weird. That's three of us separately suddenly fiddling with this > again (personally I suddenly stumbled across enough SRAM the other day > for a raw, over-sampled track buffer, which rekindled my interest in > actually Getting Something Done). I just needed a spare time project to help keep me sane. What with all the university work I *should* be doing... :) >> - All I/O lines from the floppy raised to +5V via two 4k7 resistor >> packs > > Hmmm, the SA-400 manual says that the lines should be terminated by 150 > ohms to +5V on the last drive in the chain. Output line 'true' from the > drive is logical zero, 0.0V to 0.4V, 48mA maximum. Output line 'false' > is logical one, +2.5V to +5.25V, 250uA maximum. This is a 3.5" DSHD drive. It works fine on my BBC Micro, which is what's confusing me, because on a breadboard it's not doing anything. It's as if the drive isn't even connected, but continuity checks out fine. > Doubtless the manual's available in electronic form somewhere on the > 'net - probably on Bitsavers. Yes, I've seen the SA400 manual, and a few of the Tandon 5.25" drive manuals. What I haven't seen are any manuals that cover 3.5" drives, though I suppose 99% of the interfacing stuff is the same. I did want to get a primitive MFM data-separator working tonight, but I've spent all afternoon scratching my head over this and come up with nothing. > 300RPM would be a 5Hz pulse rate, 360RPM would be 6Hz, so a bit more > than that. Which should still be enough to make my logic analyser display the 'toggling line' image in the input map display instead of 'stuck high'... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 8 17:44:35 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Livermore 76 series modem In-Reply-To: <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I ran across a Livermore Data Systems 76B in a closet, and haven't been able to find any specifics on it, only the 71 series. Does anyone know anything about it? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Modems/Livermore.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Apr 8 19:12:18 2007 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 20:12:18 -0400 Subject: Mathematica for OpenStep Message-ID: <000601c77a3b$bd3c1900$37b44b00$@com> Hi, Does anyone have a copy of Mathematica for OpenStep? I want to install it on my Intel OpenStep 4.2 (via VMWare). I know I shouldn't be asking for this, but I think they don't mind as it is quite old (version 3.0) Thanks, Ram From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 8 19:18:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 18:18:34 -0600 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices In-Reply-To: <002201c77a25$04a688f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca> <002101c779e2$8c12ca80$0100a8c0@screamer> <002201c77a25$04a688f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4619865A.30708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > 2100S computer, including programmers console, extended arithmetic > instructions, memory parity check with interrupt, power fail/automatic > restart, memory protect, 16K words of memory, floating point > instructions, DMA, Time Base Generator, and TTY interface was $16300 > list, $12 monthly maintenance. > Options were as follows: > -024 24K memory was $2500 list, no increase in monthly maintenance > -032 32K memory was $5000 list, no increase in monthly maintenance Why the jump in price over 24K? Ben alias woodelf PS. Any more news on DVD's burned of 'bitsavers' pdf's? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 8 20:07:55 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:07:55 -0500 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca> <002101c779e2$8c12ca80$0100a8c0@screamer><002201c77a25$04a688f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4619865A.30708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002001c77a43$821a2ee0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >> 2100S computer $16300 list, $12 monthly maintenance. >> Options were as follows: >> -024 24K memory was $2500 list, no increase in monthly maintenance >> -032 32K memory was $5000 list, no increase in monthly maintenance To which Ben replied.... > Why the jump in price over 24K? Not totally sure I know what you mean here... to get a 24K system you'd order one part... 2100S-024 which would total $18800. To get a 32K system instead you would order one part... 2100S-032 which would total $21300. You don't order the -024 and -032 options together. Remember, this is for initial order of a new system, not for upgrades and add-ons. Were you thinking you'd order both -024 to get it to 24 and then -032 to go from 24 to 32? That wasn't the case. Or were you asking something else? > PS. Any more news on DVD's burned of 'bitsavers' pdf's? It is being worked on! I have a lot on my plate - bear with me. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 8 20:27:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 18:27:24 -0700 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <461963A4.2070706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46168413.2070905@oldskool.org>, <461934FD.4030306@oldskool.org>, <461963A4.2070706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4619340C.31553.4003D1D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2007 at 16:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe I'm wrong; my assumption was that the BIOS would scan the bus and say > something like: "ahh, you're a such-and-such class of hardware, locate your > I/O here please" and would then choke when it tried to stick two video boards > in the same place. Ah, but when you're dealing with PCI video cards, only the first one is initialized if there's a possible conflict of resources (such as a BIOS extension ROM). The two-monitor trick initializes the second one when the switcher program is loaded. As far as I can tell, no BIOS extension ROM is executed for that one. Clearly, you'll be better off if the cards are of the same type, or at least share compatibility in the video modes that you'll be using. Cheers, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Apr 8 21:25:24 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 22:25:24 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system Message-ID: I've made some progress on getting my PDP-11/73 system up and running. I have successfully created an RX50 XXDP boot floppy and have booted XXDP. My next step was to try to format the RD54 hard drive. I did this by running the ZRQCH0 (where does this name come from anyway!) utility on the XXDP disk. I took all of the defaults and got the following failure. Does this indicate that my RQDX3 controller is bad or is this likely to indicate a bad hard drive? .R ZRQCH0 ZRQCH0.BIN DRSSM-G2 ZRQC-H-0 RQDX3 Disk Formatter Utility UNIT IS Formattable Winchester (RDnn) or Floppy (RX33) Drives RSTRT ADR 145702 DR>START CHANGE HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 UNIT 0 Enter controller IP Address (O) 172150 ? What unit do you want to format [0-255] (D) 0 ? Would you like to revector a single LBN only [Y/N] (L) N ? Do you want to use the "AUTOFORMAT" Mode [Y/N] (L) Y ? Enter unit serial number [1-32000] (D) 12345 ? **** WARNING **** ALL DATA ON SELECTED DRIVE WILL BE DESTROYED Write protect all drives not being formatted. Please verify that the selected drive is ON LINE and NOT write protected. If formatting RX33 media, insert media to be formatted in the selected drive. Do you wish to continue [Y/N] (L) Y ? ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00013 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 105742 Autosizer Failed. Status: Controller Chip Never Interrupted. ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00006 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 002 PC: 105742 Fatal Controller Error During Initialization. ZRQC EOP 1 2 TOTAL ERRS DR> From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 8 21:43:42 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:43:42 -0400 Subject: RX33 (or RX50) image of XXDP? In-Reply-To: References: <461692ED.4020809@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4619A85E.5040806@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >On 4/6/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> If you are able to burn a CD-R, INCLUDING BLOCKS 0-63 (which >> are sectors 0-15 on a CD), you can also boot from a SCSI CD >> drive with unit 0 under E11 and using your PDP-11. I don't >> think that SIMH allows a CD to be used as a raw device > > That sounds like a Windows limitation. Under UNIX, you just give simh > the raw drive name, like /dev/hdc for an IDE CD-ROM drive that is > primary on the second IDE chain. There is no equivalent under > Windows. Jerome Fine replies: I am not surprised. For a while, I was going to use raw RZ28D-E which are just ST32550N (3.5" 1/2 HT 2 GB) under E11 which can hold just about 64 RT-11 partitions. BUT, I could never easily bring them on line when I first booted W98SE. Instead, I powered up a Sony S-501 without the optical platter inserted. Since the platter is removable, W98SE was told to NOT complain. However, I then turned the power off on the Sony S-501 drive and turned the power on for the ST32550N drive. Miracles were performed and E11 was then able to see and: MOUNT DU0: SCSIn: (n was the SCSI ID for the drive) I concluded that since the ST32550N drive did not have a file structure (such as FAT32) recognized by W98SE, the W98SE, in its great wisdom, refused to bring the drive on-line. Problem seems to be that under Windows, format includes a file structure which must be one that is recognized by Windows. No possibility of a "FOREIGN" file structure is ever considered as a valid possibility by Microsoft. But it was almost trivial to work around the problem as explained above. Fortunately, Sony S-501 drives were also inexpensive as well as useful for making backups. The optical platters hold 295 MBytes per side while was sufficient even 5 years ago to be cost effective in holding 4 RT-11 partitions. Of course, now with SATA 2 drives with over 500 GB, there is so much room and these SATA 2 drives are so fast that the opticals are no longer very useful. And with 8 GB DVD-R media (I will eventually buy one although the 4 GB are still quite large enough), I still only need 3 DVD-R to hold a monthly backup of all my files. All of my RT-11 files fit on a single DVD-R. It really is amazing. I think it was around 1995 when I bought an XT8760E (600 MByte ESDI) for about $ 600 as an end of line sale item. Within a few years, I was able to buy Hitachi ESDI drives of the same size for about 10% and I used 3 such drives on the PDP-11/83 for many years with 2 drives for on-line backup and with TK70 for off-line backup. DO NOT READ BEYOND THIS POINT - OFF TOPIC!! Well, I guess a lot of the previous stuff as well!! By 2002, I started using W98SE with 3 * 40 GB drives with 2 drives for on-line backup and DVD for off-line backup. My son wants me to switch to a Pentium 4 (after all, PCs only last about 3 years) using Windows XP and 3 * 320 GB drives. It looks like I will actually be able to keep all 37,607,912,018 prime numbers up to 10^12 in 18 files of 2 GB each (I only need a single byte to store the differences) using only 10% of the storage available. And I will still be able to run RT-11 under E11, but 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 8 21:44:11 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:44:11 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41><4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> <4617E7C1.8000703@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4619A87B.5090506@compsys.to> >Jules Richardson wrote: > Actually, I wondered this the other day; ESDI got a lot bigger (around > 600MB I think) but IIRC was pretty much the same interface. So quite > what limited the capacity of ST412 drives I'm not sure. I believe that > cylinder seeking was done by a sequence of single steps (rather than > asking the drive: "seek to this cylinder"), so there's probably an > upper limit in the ST412 spec of how fast step pulses can be sent (and > beyond a certain size a drive will either become slow as mole-asses, > or some other timeout will come into play :-) Jerome Fine replies: I have a few 1.2 GB ESDI Hitachi drives which don't work quite properly (they are slow on reading), but are very nice for backups. I think that the sector size is a bit small for what the Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI controller needs. These are on my PDP-11/83. The smaller version Hitachi ESDI drives of 600 MB were just great, as were XT8670E drives from Maxtor. All of these drives are 5 1/4" FH. I also used the 1.2 GB ESDI Hitachi drives on my PC under W95 for a few years where the sector size did not seem to be a problem on a Pentium 166 MHz system. I forget which controller I used. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 8 21:45:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:45:06 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BACD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <006a01c777f8$11b15ea0$cdc8a8c0@jkccng41> <4615BAE6.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4619A8B2.4040506@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's certainly close to the largest, if not the absolute largest. > DEC took the XT2190 and formatted it at 154MB as the RD54. I have a > few in MicroVAXen. Much more solid than the RD53 (Micropolis 1325), > and no jumper moving required (there's a single solderable jumper that > must be installed to turn a generic 1325 into an RD53 so that the > customer-runnable formatter recognizes it). Jerome Fine replies: I always have a problem with DEC when I read about the zero ohm resister that was actually used in place of the jumper. What was DEC's marketing policy? Add NOTHING! What was DEC's hardware policy? Add NOTHING! For marketing, DEC would buy a Micropolis 1325 for about $ 500, add NOTHING (a zero to the price) and re-sell as an RD53 for about $ 5000. For hardware enhancements, DEC would buy a Micropolis 1325 and add NOTHING (a ZERO ohm resistor) and re-sell as an RD53. DEC might have had Micropolis OEM the drive even though the Micropolis name was still present. Seagate used to do that with RZ type drives such as the RZ28D-E which is just the ST32550N. I seem to remember that DEC had a fix to slow the VAX 725 (at least one of the systems similar the the VAX 750). Of course, Seagate did the same thing with their 20 MB and 40 MB drives - removed a pin to prevent the arm from accessing the other half of the drive (did not install the pin actually with the 40 MB drives). A hardware tech who serviced these drives told me how they just removed the pin to double the capacity. So DEC was certainly not unique. In point of fact, I really miss the fantastic DEC Software. I wonder what VMS would have been on an current Alpha? PLEASE DO NOT REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 8 21:45:21 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:45:21 -0400 Subject: bulk erase floppies for use with putr? In-Reply-To: <376FA821-8D16-4EF1-9DAC-FB70C1A706C1@xlisper.com> References: <376FA821-8D16-4EF1-9DAC-FB70C1A706C1@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4619A8C1.50708@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: > I have a Windows 98SE system setup with a 1.2mb 5.25" floppy drive > for running putr to create disks to use on my PDP-11/73 system. I > seem to remember someone suggesting that it was best to bulk erase > the DSDD 5.25" floppies before attempting to format and use them with > putr. Is that correct? I've been having trouble with putr and I'm > wondering if it is due to my failure to bulk erase the floppies > before using them. Jerome Fine replies: I would imagine that it would not hurt to bulk erase the floppy media before you use PUTR to format them as RX50 media. BUT you must remember to use DSDD 360 KByte PC media for the RX50 floppies that are used with an RX50 drive in a DEC PDP-11/73 or as READ ONLY with an RX33 drive using an RQDX3 controller. In the past, I started with bulk erased DSDD media which had never been used at all. They always worked well as RX50 after PUTR gave them a Low Level Format (LLF) without any file structure. It depends. I presume that you want to use the DSDD floppies as RX50 media whereas the 1.2 MB HD PC 5 1/4" media are used as RX33 on the DEC PDP-11/73 systems with the RQDX3 controller. However, on the PC you MUST use the HD 1.2 MB drives since the RX50 used 80 tracks, NOT 40 tracks at 10 sectors per track. So the RX50 tracks are as close as the HD tracks (side by side) and must be as narrow, but the track density is about the same as the DSDD 360 KByte media which is different magnetically from the 1.2 HD media. This was all covered a few years ago, so if you can find those archives, just read all the e-mails. > > > Also, is it necessary to start Win98SE in "DOS mode" to run putr or > can putr be run from the DOS prompt from within Win98SE? I have used both PUTR and E11 successfully under W98SE from the DOS prompt MANY times with the 5 1/4" floppy drive as B: with A: being the 1.44 MB 3.5" floppy drive. My motherboard BIOS is able to recognize 2 floppy drives. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 8 22:27:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 20:27:08 -0700 Subject: bulk erase floppies for use with putr? In-Reply-To: <4619A8C1.50708@compsys.to> References: <376FA821-8D16-4EF1-9DAC-FB70C1A706C1@xlisper.com>, <4619A8C1.50708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4619501C.31569.40716FD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2007 at 22:45, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > However, on the PC you MUST use the HD 1.2 MB drives since > the RX50 used 80 tracks, NOT 40 tracks at 10 sectors per track. > So the RX50 tracks are as close as the HD tracks (side by side) > and must be as narrow, but the track density is about the same > as the DSDD 360 KByte media which is different magnetically > from the 1.2 HD media. You can also use a 96tpi DSQD drive such as a Teac 55F. Just declare it as a 720K 3.5" drive. In any case, use DSDD media, not DSHD. I can't see that bulk erasing will make much difference. Cheers, Chuck From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Apr 9 08:10:16 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:10:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration Message-ID: <29800109.1176124216945.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I am getting ready to hook up a TU56 and TC11 to a PDP-11/40 system. I was curious if anyone else here on this list has a working TC11. My TU56 seems to work fine in standalone mode (not connected to the TC11), connected to an H720 Power supply. The capacitors are not leaky and seem to be working fine, although I know I should re-form them or replace them at some point. All voltages are correct coming from the H720. The toggle switches and lights on the TU56 are all working properly and will run a loaded Dectape in forward or reverse. My current 11/40 configuration has the full 11/40 CPU with all optional modules (EIS, MMU, FIS, M7237, M787), 128KW M7891 MOS memory, RL11 controller, RX01 controller, M7819 EIA DZ11, M7814 20mA DZ11, and an RK11 controller. I currently have an RL01, two RL02s, and a couple of RK05s, and an RX01, and they are all functional. In the last "Unibus Out" slot (which happens to be on the RK11 controller), I have an M9312 bootstrap terminator card. I have various working terminals (VT05, VT52, VT100, LA36, LA120, ASR33) connected via the EIA and 20mA DZ11s. This system works properly and I have used it to boot and run my custom configured RSTS/E V7 system, as well as RT11 and XXDP. Can anyone with a working TC11 verify that the following will work: I will remove the M9312 from the RK11 and replace it with a BC11-A Unibus cable, which will connect to the Unibus-In slot on the TC11. In the Unibus Out slot of the TC11, I will place the M9312 bootstrap terminator card. The TC11 will be connected to the TU56 with the M908 and W032 cables. Is this the correct way to add the TC11 to my current setup and properly terminate the Unibus by moving the M9312 to the TC11? Does anyone else out there have a working TC11/TU56 on a PDP-11? I am aware of numerous working TU56 / PDP-8 systems, but don't know of anyone who has a TU56 working on a PDP-11. I know people who have them sitting in a rack for "show and tell", but not connected and running. I also have a TU55 (single unit) DecTape drive. Are the TU55 drives compatible with the TC11? Can a TU55 drive be added to the above configuration and be configured as a 3rd DecTape drive? Or are the TU55 drives not compatible with the TC11? I have skimmed the TC11 manuals and did not see mention of the older TU55 drives. Thanks in advance for any advice! Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From andy.piercy at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 04:17:47 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:17:47 +0000 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Allison, All, I have a similar problem with two ESDI Micropolis 1355 drives both driver exhibit the same problem as you describe Fault ==== The drives power up but just seem to fail to load the heads i.e. You know that voice coil noise when a working drive loads, well it just does not happen on the faulty drives. The drives spins up but the drive access light just stays on. After a while the drives re-tries to load, the drive spins down the spins up again but still fails to load the head. I have two drives with this problem, however both were working but failed after a few hours of running (Not including all the years in service ;-), and one still intermittently still works. I had a quote to have the drive repaired but the UK firm wanted 380 UK Pounds! So anyway sorry to ramble, After you opened the drive, did you have any problems with dust and head crashes? Do you think that it would be possible to fabricate one of these bumpers? Do you have any pictures of this bumper within the drive? Thanks, Andy.\ On 08/04/07, Allison wrote: > > > > >Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > > From: "Steven N. Hirsch" < shirsch at adelphia.net> > > Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > > > >On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > >> John Kourafas wrote: > >>> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both > the > >>> ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... > >> > >> What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? > > > >I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run > >across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that > >anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated > >as they got. > > I have several miniscribe 20mb in all flavors of interface st412, SCSI > and IDE. I have some really old 3.5" WD 10mb. to name a few. > > They show up around the beginning of the IDE era but by time IDE hit 40mb > they seemed to have disappeared. > > > Allison > > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 9 05:20:00 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:20:00 -0300 Subject: ImageDisk update References: <200704061430.l36EUPdN029279@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <4617587F.19760.38C237A6@cclist.sydex.com><007601c779bc$517c1f50$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46193770.4020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <021901c77a90$c4aefc70$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> BTW I have a DOB in a box stored somewhere. I'm open to reasonable >> offers if someone is willing to get it. > I think now is a good time to mention that I've seen some confusion here > regarding OB models. There were three option boards. The first was a > http://retro.icequake.net/dob/img/dob1.png This is exactely the one I have ;o) From blakespot at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 05:51:06 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 06:51:06 -0400 Subject: Mathematica for OpenStep In-Reply-To: <000601c77a3b$bd3c1900$37b44b00$@com> References: <000601c77a3b$bd3c1900$37b44b00$@com> Message-ID: <4b7d63a40704090351m3f0b161axd8e1c1ecb44a8448@mail.gmail.com> On 4/8/07, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone have a copy of Mathematica for OpenStep? I want to install it on > my Intel OpenStep 4.2 (via VMWare). I know I shouldn't be asking for this, > but I think they don't mind as it is quite old (version 3.0) > > Thanks, > Ram I don't have Mathematica for you, but I thought you might find this little project of interest: http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000073.php OPENSTEP running on a MacBook Pro via Parallels. blakespot -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 9 03:42:35 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:42:35 +0100 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <4619003F.278.3F39795E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619003F.278.3F39795E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4619FC7B.2060605@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually, about 5 times per second. Or 5 Hz * 60 seconds = 300RPM. > Some drives won't output any signals until the onboard controller is > satsified that the drive is ready (i.e. that it sees an index pulse > every 200 msec). I don't know if Sony's one of them, but I've seen > it. Similarly, the drive must be satisfied that the disk is seated > in the drive. I've got a Toshiba floppy drive that has a problem > seating the diskette firmly and it simply returns--nothing and the > FDC thinks that the drive's not ready. That makes sense. I think I've found the problem though - good ol' drive select issues. Based on the pinout I had, I expected that I'd have to activate /MOTEN_A (pin 10) and /DRVSEL_A (pin 14) to get the drive to spin and output data. That assumption was wrong - the drive wants pin 16 (/MOTEN_B according to my pinout) low, and either /DRVSEL_A or /DRVSEL_B low depending on how the drive is jumpered. This goes back to the 'swap four lines' action the twist in the cable performs. If you want to select drive A, you activate MOTEN_A and DRVSEL_A (pins 10 and 14 respectively), and because drive A is after the twist, as far as it's concerned, MOTEN_B and DRVSEL_B are active (pins 16 and 12 respectively). Because I was raising MOTEN_A and DRVSEL_A, had the drive jumpered for DS0 (drive A), and used a cable with no twist, the drive would get selected (green/amber/whatever activity LED on) but the motor wouldn't spin because MOTEN_x was inactive. Now I'm seeing an index signal on the analyser, and a data signal too. Now for Phase 2 - the MFM data separator. This still doesn't change the fact that I've got a Citizen OSD-U that seems to have issues (the motor spins when the disc is inserted, DRVSEL turns on the LED, but the whole thing goes dead if DRVSEL and MOTEN are enabled with a disc in the drive), but my Panasonic JU257 and the Sony MPF520 are both running fine. I'll probably put the Sony back where it was (I borrowed it from my Acorn BBC Master 128 setup and it's the only drive I've got that can be jumpered to DS0) and use the Panasonic for further tests. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 9 06:14:28 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 06:14:28 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461856E5.8040001@pacbell.net> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> <461856E5.8040001@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <461A2014.7020902@mdrconsult.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > ... > >> I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are >> out there for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been sold, >> and owners must have thrown together quite a bit of code to drive them >> - but every time I've dug around on the 'net it's been unclear as to >> what kind of user community exists to actively share code and >> experiences. >> >> (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight >> OS like Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are >> available for the alternatives) > > > Join the following yahoo group: Catweasel-Dev at yahoogroups.com Granted that I suck at web forums, but the Yahoo! I subscribe to claims no such group. The "catweasel" group shows that its last post was in 2000. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 9 03:17:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 03:17:19 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46191582.5942.3F8C860F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4618DAA3.13084.3EA68EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <46195D74.5040200@yahoo.co.uk> <46191582.5942.3F8C860F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Apr 2007 at 16:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> No - but when I last trawled the web for info on the CW (about a year ago) I >> was getting the impression that what little "officially sanctioned" >> documentation and example code there was out there was squarely aimed at Windows. > > There is definitely a register-level description and source code for > the MK3 out there that shows how to get the PCI resource values from > the BIOS. Hmm, so maybe the trick is to find someone selling an old MK3 board, rather than the MK4... > Myself, I use my own code to drive the cards; I've never needed code > from others. I must admit I tend to write my own code for things like this - but I like to be able to see what others have done just to avoid any gotchas which might otherwise slow progress - hence it's useful to have a repository somewhere. > The data from the catweasel is basically a series of counts between > pulses. Hmm, that's interesting. Does it store fixed length counts in the buffer, or does it use variable-length counts with a couple of bits of "header" to say how many bits the count takes up? Either way, it got me wondering if there's some really oddball stuff that the CW can't read because the count between pulses is just too long. It's too early here to reason it out :-) > It's a bit difficult looking at a data stream from the CW > and figuring out what you're looking at. I've got a little Windows > utility that takes any track and plots the data on a time axis, > changing from 1 to 0 with every pulse. The graphical representation > really helps to figure things out, particularly when dealing with > someone's idea of GCR. I was thinking the same thing with this concept of over-sampling the entire track into a buffer; it's going to be a heck of a lot easier to decode the data while looking at a graphical utility. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 9 03:29:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 03:29:14 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Yes, I've seen the SA400 manual, and a few of the Tandon 5.25" drive > manuals. What I haven't seen are any manuals that cover 3.5" drives, > though I suppose 99% of the interfacing stuff is the same. Yep, it should be the same - although the BBC doesn't use that nasty cable twist in the drive cable like a PC, so the drive will be jumpered differently to a PC drive in terms of drive select. It's probably worth checking what levels pins 2, 4, 6 are at when the drive's hooked up to the beeb - ISTR these are a bit open to interpretation. > I did want to get a primitive MFM data-separator working tonight, but > I've spent all afternoon scratching my head over this and come up with > nothing. I was going to do all that in software - seemed like a lot easier way of doing it than having two different data streams from the hardware to deal with (MFM versus "something else"). cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 9 04:29:56 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:29:56 +0100 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/04/2007 03:25, David Betz wrote: > I've made some progress on getting my PDP-11/73 system up and running. I > have successfully created an RX50 XXDP boot floppy and have booted XXDP. > My next step was to try to format the RD54 hard drive. I did this by > running the ZRQCH0 (where does this name come from anyway!) XXDP comprises a large set of diagnostics programs, and the names are encoded according to function. In this case: Z -- any PDP-11 processor RQ - diagnostic for the RQDX series C -- third diagnostic in this set H -- eighth revision of this diagnostic 0 -- patch level 0 (ie not patched) See the first few pages of http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.pdf > utility on > the XXDP disk. I took all of the defaults and got the following failure. > Does this indicate that my RQDX3 controller is bad or is this likely to > indicate a bad hard drive? Since the controller handles the RX50 OK, almost all of it must be working. If the LED on the RQDX3 goes out a few seconds after resetting, with the RD54 disconnected, the RQDX3 has passed its self-test. From the error, I'd say possibly the RD54 has never been formatted on an RQDX3, or more likely something is wrong with the jumpers or connections. Double check that the drive select jumper is correct (normally it should be DS3; does the drive's LED flash when you run ZRQC?), that the little control board in the front of your BA23/BA123 with the READY and WRT PROT buttons is properly connected and those switches are set correctly, and that the cables from the distribution panel are connected correctly (with both the RD54 cables connected to the lower-numbered port). It's just possible you have too old a version of the firmware on the RQDX3 (what are the EPROM numbers?) or that its jumpers (eg W23) are set wrongly, but this is less likely I think. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 08:31:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:31:34 -0400 Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration In-Reply-To: <29800109.1176124216945.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29800109.1176124216945.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/9/07, Ashley Carder wrote: > Does anyone else out there have a working TC11/TU56 on a PDP-11? I am aware of numerous working TU56 / PDP-8 systems, but don't know of anyone who has a TU56 working on a PDP-11. I know people who have them sitting in a rack for "show and tell", but not connected and running. That would include me... I have a TC11 that arrived with an 11/44, but with as much time as I spend out of the States, I haven't had time to power either one up. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 9 08:42:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:42:19 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <0JG800DAMGNIKS6M@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > From: "Andy Piercy" > Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:17:47 +0000 > To: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Allison, All, > >I have a similar problem with two ESDI Micropolis 1355 drives both driver >exhibit the same problem as you describe > >Fault >==== >The drives power up but just seem to fail to load the heads >i.e. You know that voice coil noise when a working drive loads, well it just >does not happen on the faulty drives. The drives spins up but the drive >access light just stays on. After a while the drives re-tries to load, the >drive spins down the spins up again but still fails to load the head. > >I have two drives with this problem, however both were working but failed >after a few hours of running (Not including all the years in service ;-), >and one still intermittently still works. > >I had a quote to have the drive repaired but the UK firm wanted 380 UK >Pounds! > >So anyway sorry to ramble, After you opened the drive, did you have any >problems with dust and head crashes? Do you think that it would be possible >to fabricate one of these bumpers? Do you have any pictures of this bumper >within the drive? That is the typical symptom. spinup no head load then spindown. I plain removed the bumper. It makes a loud clack now but no ill effects. The first time I jsut put some Teflon tape over it avoid the sticky surface but it was harder to do. No pictures. I did it in a clean work area but not a clean room. Fequires small tools inside (very small area) and I demaged all my tools beforhand. The only prep I di was to clean the unit outside well (dust removeal) then clean the workarea well with a damp cloth to keep ESD and dust down. It's been years (at least 8) since I've done this and the drives are still working. Allison > > > > > >On 08/04/07, Allison wrote: >> >> > >> >Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 >> > From: "Steven N. Hirsch" < shirsch at adelphia.net> >> > Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) >> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >> > >> >On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> > >> >> John Kourafas wrote: >> >>> Also looking for a Micropolis 1325 MFM Drive, 71/80MB , I've seen both >> the >> >>> ST506 and Mic. 1325 on eBay for like 600.00 which I think is crazy... >> >> >> >> What's the largest capacity 3.5" MFM HDD available? >> > >> >I have an extensive collection of MFM/RLL drives and have _never_ run >> >across one with that interface in a 3.5" form-factor. Not sure that >> >anything of this sort existed. 5.25" 1/2-ht. was about as sophisticated >> >as they got. >> >> I have several miniscribe 20mb in all flavors of interface st412, SCSI >> and IDE. I have some really old 3.5" WD 10mb. to name a few. >> >> They show up around the beginning of the IDE era but by time IDE hit 40mb >> they seemed to have disappeared. >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 08:42:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:42:08 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> Andy Piercy wrote: > So anyway sorry to ramble, After you opened the drive, did you have any > problems with dust and head crashes? Do you think that it would be possible > to fabricate one of these bumpers? Do you have any pictures of this bumper > within the drive? You could always make a cleanbox to do the work in. It isn't difficult. There are plans available online, but if you have trouble finding them, I'd be willing to describe how I did it. Peace... Sridhar From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 9 09:21:17 2007 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:21:17 +0200 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <200704091319.l39DI7JW080390@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704091319.l39DI7JW080390@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <461A4BDD.8010807@xs4all.nl> > No - but when I last trawled the web for info on the CW (about a year ago) I > was getting the impression that what little "officially sanctioned" > documentation and example code there was out there was squarely aimed at Windows. > At http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html sources for both Dos/Windows and Linux programs are available. Of course these are mainly for reading and writing 1771/1793 FDC compatible floppies which contains most of what 765 FDC can handle. The origin of the Catweasel is reading/writing Commodore compatible floppies. > I'm not sure what work users have done with the board under DOS. I know I saw > rumour of a Linux kernel driver - but for what board revision / firmware I > don't know. It's a shame these sorts of things aren't (apparently) fed back > The drivers above are for the MK1, MK3, MK4 boards. The difference between the MK3 and MK4 is only of interest of C64 emulation; real SID or emulated SID (sound chip). Fred Jan From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Apr 9 09:26:20 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:26:20 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56 Rack Mounting question Message-ID: <9263530.1176128781326.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Another question.... Does a TU56 normally have rack-mount rails? I have two TU56 drives and neither of them have rails. How are these typically mounted? From RMeenaks at olf.com Mon Apr 9 09:28:53 2007 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:28:53 -0400 Subject: Mathematica for OpenStep References: <000601c77a3b$bd3c1900$37b44b00$@com> <4b7d63a40704090351m3f0b161axd8e1c1ecb44a8448@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1095@cpexchange.olf.com> On 4/9/07, Blake Patterson wrote: > I don't have Mathematica for you, but I thought you might find this > little project of interest: > > http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000073.php > > OPENSTEP running on a MacBook Pro via Parallels. That is slick. Really like it. I love the whole virtualization bit, eventhough some of you don't like it. But when space it at a premium, I love it. Got BeOS, OpenStep, OS/2, Linux, MacOSX, and Windows ME running under VMWare on my Windows XP PC... Cheers, Ram From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 9 09:32:45 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:32:45 -0500 Subject: catweasel resources, and other thoughts In-Reply-To: <461A2014.7020902@mdrconsult.com> References: <46172D3F.7040100@oldskool.org> <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4618105C.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> <461856E5.8040001@pacbell.net> <461A2014.7020902@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <461A4E8D.9000008@pacbell.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >> ... >> >>> I'm still concerned about what documentation and resources there are >>> out there for the cat though - I mean quite a few must have been >>> sold, and owners must have thrown together quite a bit of code to >>> drive them - but every time I've dug around on the 'net it's been >>> unclear as to what kind of user community exists to actively share >>> code and experiences. >>> >>> (Plus I really don't want to be driving the thing under a heavyweight >>> OS like Windows - and God knows what the resources and docs are >>> available for the alternatives) >> >> >> Join the following yahoo group: Catweasel-Dev at yahoogroups.com > > Granted that I suck at web forums, but the Yahoo! I subscribe to > claims no such group. The "catweasel" group shows that its last post > was in 2000. That is weird -- I definitely get emails from the above address, but like you, if I entry "catweasel-dev" on yahoo groups, nothing comes up. I wonder how that can be. Is it possible that there are "private groups" that don't show up? I'm sure there are other online resources, but here are a few (including code for many of them): Tim Mann's TRS80 catweasel tools: http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html Linux drivers: http://www.soundtracker.org/raw/cwfloppy/index.html Official english MK3 documentation: http://www.schoenfeld.de/inside/Inside_CWMK3.txt Official english MK4 documentation: http://siliconsonic.de/t/CWMK4_english.pdf More linux stuff: http://unusedino.de/cw/ My program (with source) for reading PTDOS disks: http://www.sol20.org/ptdos.html#catweasel Jay Jaeger took bits of my code and wrote a program to read DG 6030 hard sectored disks: http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/hardsec_cw.tar.gz On the one hand I've heard the complaint that there is no centralized "official" code base, but then I've also heard: I don't borrow code and would write it myself. Both are fine opinions to have, but not at the same time by an individual person. :-) Manipulating the card is really pretty simple (using an unprotected OS like DOS or Win98), so don't be put off by confusion over drivers. You don't need one. Just poke the registers and collect the data. The only tricky part is the code that *you* have to write for your particular disk format to make sense of the data. Jules had mentioned worries about the transition counter overflowing. The counters are 8b (7b if you want to capture the state of the index sensor at each sample). You get to select a sampling rate (14, 28, or 56 MHz). At the lower sampling rate, a transition would have to be greater than 18 uS before the counter saturated -- pretty darn slow. But you are right, if media existed with a bit rate under this, you couldn't capture it exactly. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 9 09:50:21 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:50:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: >> I did want to get a primitive MFM data-separator working tonight, but >> I've spent all afternoon scratching my head over this and come up with >> nothing. > > I was going to do all that in software - seemed like a lot easier way of > doing it than having two different data streams from the hardware to > deal with (MFM versus "something else"). Oh, I'm going to do most of that in software too. I just want to get MFM sync-word detection and maybe pre-decoding working. SWD would be handy for reading Amiga format discs, on the grounds that the data can start anywhere on the track, not just at an index pulse. AIUI, with uPD765-written discs, you'd start reading when the index pulse goes active, read a whole track, then stop reading when it goes active then inactive, i.e.: __ __ INDEX ___| |_____________________| |___ : : : : Start point Stop point This gives you enough overlap (assuming the index sensor is fairly accurate) to be reasonably sure you've got the whole track. Then you look for the sync markers and decode it in software. With Amiga discs, because the data is stored with no index-pulse sync, you look for the MFM codeword 0x4489 which decodes as 0xA1, but isn't a valid MFM encoding (there's a missing clock pulse -- see last paragraph and bottom diagram of ). The whole reason the datasep is needed is to figure out where the data bits lie. To detect the sync word, you shift data bits into a 16-bit shift register according to the transitions (positive *and* negative) of the Data Window line. If there was a pulse on DATA during a Data Window cycle, you clock in a one, else you clock in a zero. Then you add a comparator (basically an AND gate and a bunch of inverters) to signal when the shift register contains 0x4489. You use that signal to trigger the start of an acquisition cycle, then stop shortly after the sync word is detected again. The beauty of the sync word is that because it's not valid MFM (but it's close enough to be picked up by a data separator), it can never appear in normal data, so you don't have to worry about what to do if the track contains a 0xA1 byte somewhere in a sector (or sector header). If you want to be ultra-pedantic, you could search for the whole Amiga sync sequence -- 0xAAAA 0xAAAA 0x4489 0x4489 -- but then you need a 64-bit shift register instead of a 16-bit shift register. I'd love to try my idea out, but I don't have any Amiga floppies to play with, nor do I have an Amiga to create them... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 9 10:15:04 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:15:04 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4618DAA3.13084.3EA68EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <46195D74.5040200@yahoo.co.uk> <46191582.5942.3F8C860F@cclist.sydex.com> <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461A5878.1020901@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, that's interesting. Does it store fixed length counts in the > buffer, or does it use variable-length counts with a couple of bits of > "header" to say how many bits the count takes up? Here's the document that explains how the CW is programmed: AIUI, it goes something like this (with Counter=0 to start): - Wait for transition - Store contents of Counter in memory, MemAddr++, Counter=0 - Repeat until all the data has been read Counter is incremented at the master clock rate -- 14, 28 or 56MHz (well, actually 56.644MHz). Basically, what the Catweasel tells you is how much time there was between the last flux transition and the current transition. From that, you can regenerate the waveform, or do some (relatively) simple data processing to get the original data back. > Either way, it got me wondering if there's some really oddball stuff > that the CW can't read because the count between pulses is just too > long. It's too early here to reason it out :-) The easy answer is to slow the clock down so the counter doesn't overflow :) > I was thinking the same thing with this concept of over-sampling the > entire track into a buffer; it's going to be a heck of a lot easier to > decode the data while looking at a graphical utility. I'm sketching out the UI for my drive reader at the moment. It'll probably have: - A 'logic' display that shows the index pulse and data. - A histogram display that shows where the timing values lie (may be useful for giving encoding types a 'signature' and identifying them based on that) - Standard read/write panel, track navigation, etc. Maybe I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, seeing as the hardware isn't even half done yet... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 9 10:15:17 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:15:17 +0200 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: <017101c77a21$18d30320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <017101c77a21$18d30320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070409171517.5451e68d@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:16:26 +0100 "Ensor" wrote: > Is there anywhere I can find out a bit more about CHRP? ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/rs6000/technology/spec/chrp/ http://playground.sun.com/1275/home.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 9 12:28:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:28:18 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46191582.5942.3F8C860F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2007 at 3:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, so maybe the trick is to find someone selling an old MK3 board, rather > than the MK4... Is the MK4 real? It's not clear from Jens' web site. If it is, I'll probably buy one. > Hmm, that's interesting. Does it store fixed length counts in the buffer, or > does it use variable-length counts with a couple of bits of "header" to say > how many bits the count takes up? Each count takes up 7 bits of an 8-bit byte. The high-order bit records the presence of an index pulse (essential for decoding hard- sectored formats). He gets around the fixed-width issue by having several (3, IIRC) programmable clock speeds. As I said, brutally simple. One thing that I've found to be useful is the construction of a "buffer board"; i.e., some high-current OC drivers and schmitt receivers that feed from an DC-37 external drive connector to the MK3. I've found that the bare MK3 driving long cables on "heirloom" drives don't seem to have the 'oomph" to get the job done. > I was thinking the same thing with this concept of over-sampling the entire > track into a buffer; it's going to be a heck of a lot easier to decode the > data while looking at a graphical utility. One thing that's useful is a histogram of a track. FM will show two peaks; MFM, three. GCR usually shows more than three. Unformatted tracks show very broad distributions. GCR can be very challenging. You have an idea of the way it works and what the "prohibited" bit combinations probably are, but you still don't have your mappings. I've taken several tracks and, based on a suspicion that each sector probably contained some sort of header information that included a cylinder number, have worked from that. I've still got a couple of GCR formats that I haven't cracked yet, though. The process of decoding a new format that isn't FM or MFM is usually one of staring at the data for a couple of hours and then not thinking about it for a week or two. Eventually, there will be an "Aha!" that usually comes sometime around bedtime. :-) Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 9 12:54:51 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:54:51 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update Message-ID: <461A7DEB.8020606@bitsavers.org> > I was thinking the same thing with this concept of over-sampling the entire > track into a buffer If you are familiar with logic analyzers, this is the difference between state and timing modes. The CW is like timing mode, and has a high clock resolution, and is run-length encoded. Oversampling requires you to transfer a LOT of samples, which are mostly the same. Eric Smith and I built an oversampling reader about five years ago. It was impractical because of the time it took to transfer all of the samples. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:14:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:14:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 8, 7 09:05:59 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > I've just dug my not-even-a-tenth-finished floppy disc raw-reader out of > the cupboard, the plan being to finish it off. Problem is, I'm not seeing any > signals coming out of the floppy drive - all the outputs are stuck high. > > What I've got is: > - All odd numbered pins on the IDC34 tied to ground > - All I/O lines from the floppy raised to +5V via two 4k7 resistor packs > - /MOTORA and /DS0 wired together, and grounded via a switch I once came across a floppy drive -- I think it was an original full-height 3.5" Sony, that didn't work if motor on (or was it DS/ or both?) was asserted at power-on. For some reason the microcontroller got confused by this and refused to do anything. Since your drive seeks, I doubt that's the problem > - A Sony MPF520E floppy drive, HP badged, jumpered for automatic density > selection and DS0 (drive 0) > > I can step the head in and out fine, and the motor seems to be spinning (the You do have a disk in the drive, right? Some (most?) 3.5" drives won't output index pulses if there's no disk in there (to maintain full compatability with 5.25" drives, I guess, which can't output index pulses if there's no idsk). > drive's activity light is on at least). What I can't get is any form of output > from the drive - even /INDEX is stuck floating high (FWICT it should pulse Since you can step the heads around, does Trk00 do anything when you get the heads to the outermost sylinder? > once for every revolution of the disc, i.e. about once per half-second or so). > > Am I violating some timing parameter or basic rule here? I honestly can't see > any reason why the drive would seek fine, but not return any data or index pulses. Onme thing to watch out for is tha the index signal may be a fairly narrow pulse 5 times a second. It's possible to miss it. Other than that, I can't think of anything obvious. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:34:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:34:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <4619A8B2.4040506@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Apr 8, 7 10:45:06 pm Message-ID: > What was DEC's marketing policy? Add NOTHING! > > What was DEC's hardware policy? Add NOTHING! This reminds me of that comment 'We got nothing from the Arabs'. It's true in the sense that what we got from them was the concept of zero -- 'Nothing' -- and thus a positional number system notation. A major advance IMHO. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:26:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:26:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? In-Reply-To: <200704082121.l38LLsNK029561@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Apr 8, 7 05:21:54 pm Message-ID: > > > "Jay West" wrote: > ... > >DEC H960 Rack with 861C power controller > ... > > Which reminds me. I plugged in an 861C yesterday. The breaker seemed a > bit "dodgie" as they say, and didn't seem to want to stay on. I finally They normally ared a bit tricky to get to latch on. > got it to stay on but when I plugged it in I got a loud buzzing sound > from inside the "box". The switch was set to "local". > > There was nothing else plugged in and the breaker didn't pop but I didn't > like the sound and unplugged it. I've never opened an 861C up - what's Well, you have one. Do you own a screwdriver :-) Seriously they come apart very easily (just a few screws holding the cover on). Obviously unplug it ffrom the mains before you start, but there's no serieosu stored charge inside (there are mains filter capacitors, but they're quite small). > inside? I would have thought it was just A/C distribution but I guess > there must be a relay come to think of it. I can't remember which the -C version is (there are at least 5 models, 115V and 230V, single and 3 phase inputs, etc). The bnsic design is much the same for all of them. There's a breaker and mains filter, the output of that goes to the unswitched sockets, and also to a contactor (big relay). The output of the contactor goes to the swtiched sockets. There's a little control PCB inside as well. IIRC in the 861 it contains an unregulated supply and a reed relay with 2 coil windings, and some diodes. As you may know, the 3 pin mate-n-lock ocnnectors on the power controllers allow you to link up several such controllers so that turning on the CPU consople switch also turns on every other part of the system. The 3 pins on those conenctors are ground, ground-for-on, and ground-for-off, with the last taking priority. The sonsole switch is wirted between ground and ground-for-on, any overheating-detection themal swtiches are wired between ground and ground-for-off. That way, if any part of the system overheats, the whole lot gets turned off. IIRC, the reed relay has a differentially-wound coil. Grounding the ground-for-on line turns the relay on. Grounding the ground-fo-off line, if the ground-for-on line is also grounded, will cause both windings to be energinsed, the magnetic fields cancel, and the reed relay turns off. The contacts of the reed relay cotnrol the contactor. This is a problem in 230V models, the reed relay is really only rated for 115V, and tends to suffer from contact welding when used to switch the 230V contactor coil. I've had to thump my 861 to get it to turn off. Anyway, the contactor does buzz a bit anyway. if you're getting mains at the swithced outltes, it should be fine (if you don't get mains there, the contactor may not be pulling in properly. In that case it'll buzz like mad, and will also burn out fairly quickly.). A fault on the cotnrol buard is unlikely to cause buxxing. The control elemenets, the reed relay and the contactor, are too slow to repsond at 60Hz. So even if there's ripple on the cotnrol board supply, it doesn't normally cause the thing to buzz. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:10:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:10:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <4619367B.203@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 8, 7 01:37:47 pm Message-ID: > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I have a truly gigantic pile (pile takes up more space than many of my > > mainframe CPU's) of 8-bit ethernet NIC's. Are they really that rare? > > Nothing is rare until you need it. Indeed... > > For example, to this day I still don't have a Hercules mono card or > 8-bit ISA SCSI card with a boot ROM, and I've got at least 200 pounds of > loose parts. And I've only got one 5153 CGA monitor to my name while > others claim they have them stacked in a corner (!). I suspect I'm unique in that I have 3 times as many classic PERQs (or if you like, twice as many HP9100Bs) as Apple //e machines. And I've never even seen an Apple IIGS -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Apr 9 14:21:04 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <46184ED8.5090300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070409192104.B276E583DE@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar Ayengar > > I have a truly gigantic pile (pile takes up more space than many of my > mainframe CPU's) of 8-bit ethernet NIC's. Are they really that rare? > I would hate to be the NIC at the bottom of that pile! %-( Cheers, Bryan From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Apr 9 14:37:15 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:37:15 -0500 Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? In-Reply-To: <200704082121.l38LLsNK029561@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:40:07 CDT."<000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200704082121.l38LLsNK029561@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <005001c77ade$7a424400$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I use 861Cs as power strips around the house, and I do notice when they're plugged in all by themselves they emit a kind of low buzzing sound. It isn't loud or annoying at all though, so I assume what you have is something different. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? > > > "Jay West" wrote: > ... > >DEC H960 Rack with 861C power controller > ... > > Which reminds me. I plugged in an 861C yesterday. The > breaker seemed a bit "dodgie" as they say, and didn't seem to > want to stay on. I finally got it to stay on but when I > plugged it in I got a loud buzzing sound from inside the > "box". The switch was set to "local". > > There was nothing else plugged in and the breaker didn't pop > but I didn't like the sound and unplugged it. I've never > opened an 861C up - what's inside? I would have thought it > was just A/C distribution but I guess there must be a relay > come to think of it. > > I really like all those nice a/c plugs. Guess I should open > it up and see what's buzzing. > > -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 9 14:39:52 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:39:52 -0400 Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? Message-ID: <0JG8009T2X7XTW92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:26:53 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> >> "Jay West" wrote: >> ... >> >DEC H960 Rack with 861C power controller >> ... >> >> Which reminds me. I plugged in an 861C yesterday. The breaker seemed a >> bit "dodgie" as they say, and didn't seem to want to stay on. I finally > >They normally ared a bit tricky to get to latch on. I have three of them here and I've never had a "dodgy" breaker, they latch quite firmly. > >> got it to stay on but when I plugged it in I got a loud buzzing sound >> from inside the "box". The switch was set to "local". >> >> There was nothing else plugged in and the breaker didn't pop but I didn't >> like the sound and unplugged it. I've never opened an 861C up - what's > >Well, you have one. Do you own a screwdriver :-) > >Seriously they come apart very easily (just a few screws holding the >cover on). Obviously unplug it ffrom the mains before you start, but >there's no serieosu stored charge inside (there are mains filter >capacitors, but they're quite small). > >> inside? I would have thought it was just A/C distribution but I guess >> there must be a relay come to think of it. > >I can't remember which the -C version is (there are at least 5 models, >115V and 230V, single and 3 phase inputs, etc). > >The bnsic design is much the same for all of them. There's a breaker and >mains filter, the output of that goes to the unswitched sockets, and also >to a contactor (big relay). The output of the contactor goes to the >swtiched sockets. > >There's a little control PCB inside as well. IIRC in the 861 it contains >an unregulated supply and a reed relay with 2 coil windings, and some >diodes. > >As you may know, the 3 pin mate-n-lock ocnnectors on the power >controllers allow you to link up several such controllers so that turning >on the CPU consople switch also turns on every other part of the system. >The 3 pins on those conenctors are ground, ground-for-on, and >ground-for-off, with the last taking priority. The sonsole switch is >wirted between ground and ground-for-on, any overheating-detection themal >swtiches are wired between ground and ground-for-off. That way, if any >part of the system overheats, the whole lot gets turned off. > >IIRC, the reed relay has a differentially-wound coil. Grounding the >ground-for-on line turns the relay on. Grounding the ground-fo-off line, >if the ground-for-on line is also grounded, will cause both windings to >be energinsed, the magnetic fields cancel, and the reed relay turns off. > >The contacts of the reed relay cotnrol the contactor. This is a problem >in 230V models, the reed relay is really only rated for 115V, and tends >to suffer from contact welding when used to switch the 230V contactor >coil. I've had to thump my 861 to get it to turn off. > >Anyway, the contactor does buzz a bit anyway. if you're getting mains at >the swithced outltes, it should be fine (if you don't get mains there, >the contactor may not be pulling in properly. In that case it'll buzz >like mad, and will also burn out fairly quickly.). > >A fault on the cotnrol buard is unlikely to cause buxxing. The control >elemenets, the reed relay and the contactor, are too slow to repsond at >60Hz. So even if there's ripple on the cotnrol board supply, it doesn't >normally cause the thing to buzz. The buss is nothing bad. Usually it's just the contactor mechanically buzzing I have only one that does that and either cycling it or giving it a sound rap (purcusive maintenace) makes it quiet down. Allison From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Apr 9 14:44:04 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:44:04 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> References: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >> utility on the XXDP disk. I took all of the defaults and got the >> following failure. Does this indicate that my RQDX3 controller is >> bad or is this likely to indicate a bad hard drive? > > Since the controller handles the RX50 OK, almost all of it must be > working. If the LED on the RQDX3 goes out a few seconds after > resetting, with the RD54 disconnected, the RQDX3 has passed its > self-test. From the error, I'd say possibly the RD54 has never > been formatted on an RQDX3, or more likely something is wrong with > the jumpers or connections. > > Double check that the drive select jumper is correct (normally it > should be DS3; does the drive's LED flash when you run ZRQC?), that > the little control board in the front of your BA23/BA123 with the > READY and WRT PROT buttons is properly connected and those switches > are set correctly, and that the cables from the distribution panel > are connected correctly (with both the RD54 cables connected to the > lower-numbered port). It's just possible you have too old a > version of the firmware on the RQDX3 (what are the EPROM numbers?) > or that its jumpers (eg W23) are set wrongly, but this is less > likely I think. You were right about needing to switch drive select to 3. That made it possible to format the RD54 drive. It formatted successfully with 40 bad LBNs and 7 retired. I also tried formatting my five RD53s and one formatted successfully with 27 bad LBNs. The other four failed to even be detected as far as I can tell. Is there any point in playing with these or would I be better off just trashing them? Also, how bad are 27-40 bad LBNs? I know that they can be mapped out but is this a sign that the drive is dying? Thanks, David From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 9 15:58:14 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:58:14 -0700 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca> <002101c779e2$8c12ca80$0100a8c0@screamer> <002201c77a25$04a688f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <461AA8E6.4E377CD0@cs.ubc.ca> Thanks for the info, Bob and Jay, I'll forward it all on, along with the following summary: > Bob's data shows about $1000 / (1024 words * 17 bits) in 1969 for HP 2116B > Jay's data shows about $300-400 / (1024 words * 17 bits) in 1977 for HP 2100A/S > One thing to note is that the 1969 pricing is for a current product, while the > 1977 values are for an old product which by then had been superseded by newer > CPU models (HP 2100A/S superseded by HP 21MX models). On a related note, congrats to the list member that won the HP 2116C on ebay. (Somebody else was joking about nerd heaven and the way the cage of their PDP-11 rotated on it's rails. Similarly, one of the cool features of the 2116 is the way the card cage slides out on 4 hidden solid aluminum rails, 2 of the rails split in half and the entire card cage swings to one side for access to the backplane and power supply. The whole machine is constructed with thick cast/machined aluminum, stainless steel hardware, full coverage gold plate on the boards - the epitome of HP engineering in it's day.) From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 9 16:54:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 22:54:21 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> I've recently been looking at setting up an old HP Vectra P-90 to run Linux (or some form of *nix) and started wondering what ports exist for "classic" systems. Looking around I see that "NetBSD" in particular supports quite a few architectures including VAX, SGI, NeXT etc etc, but I've struck out regarding Linux ports. So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux ports to architectures other than PC's. And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members use on their classic iron? TTFN - Pete. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 9 19:30:46 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:30:46 -0500 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca><002101c779e2$8c12ca80$0100a8c0@screamer><002201c77a25$04a688f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <461AA8E6.4E377CD0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <007601c77b07$7bc760c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote... >> One thing to note is that the 1969 pricing is for a current product, >> while the >> 1977 values are for an old product which by then had been superseded by >> newer >> CPU models (HP 2100A/S superseded by HP 21MX models). Yes, but a few things to also consider.... The 1969 pricing is for the wrong product technically. It was for memory for the 2116, which is decidedly NOT a 2100A or 2100S and your contact was looking for memory pricing for the 2100A/S specifically. It is entirely possible that memory prices were changed substantially when the (albeit) same memory board was repackaged with the 2100 so I'd suggest considering the 1977 2100 memory pricing a bit more heavily. This is also of interest because the 1969 pricing was for a complete system and the delta was being deducted as the memory price. In addition, I'm not sure it would be completely correct to say that the 1977 pricing was for an "old product that had been superceded" as it was not really a dead product at the time. I should point out that the 2100A/S was not replaced with the 21MX boxes immediately (or shortly) after the 21MX came out. They were all marketed at the same time for a good while. More interesting to note, the 2100A was introduced in about 1971, and was not discontinued till approximately 1980. The first of the MX series was introduced around 1974. As you can see, there is a quite substantial period when both 2100A/S and 21MX systems were marketed. Just some thoughts for consideration, the final analysis will be somewhat subjective. Jay West From andy.piercy at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 18:15:50 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:15:50 +0100 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: Alison, thanks for the info, I'll have a go at opening one of the driver, as currently they are only as much use as a large paper weight! Sridhar, A clean box sounda a good idea, could you provide some detaile please? Thanks, Andy. On 09/04/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Andy Piercy wrote: > > So anyway sorry to ramble, After you opened the drive, did you have any > > problems with dust and head crashes? Do you think that it would be > possible > > to fabricate one of these bumpers? Do you have any pictures of this > bumper > > within the drive? > > You could always make a cleanbox to do the work in. It isn't difficult. > There are plans available online, but if you have trouble finding > them, I'd be willing to describe how I did it. > > Peace... Sridhar > From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 9 18:10:24 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:10:24 -0700 Subject: Scanning - was Fujitsu M2442 9 track tape drive disposal. Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BC11@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Glen Slick Wrote: M2441A Standalone, 100 IPS Streaming, 12.5 IPS Start/Stop M2442A Rack mount, 100 IPS Streaming, 12.5 IPS Start/Stop M2443A Standalone, 75 IPS Streaming, 25 IPS Streaming M2444A Rack mount, 75 IPS Streaming, 25 IPS Streaming M244xAC models have a 256KB buffer adapter installed. M2441A / M2443A 110 kg , 242 lb. M2442A / M2444A 90 kg, 198 lb. ------------------------------- Billy responds: I was the field service manager at Fujitsu America for 8 years (1986 on) and supported all their US customers of tape and disks (plus scanners, printers and MO devices.) While cleaning out old manuals recently, I came across a market survey we did in 1988. It includes detailed charts on every tape, and disk available at that time, plus many that were obsolete but still being used. (Included a lot of pricing data too.) It would be ideal to answer questions like this or the running thread on RLL, ST412 comparisons. I gave it to Al K. a couple of weeks ago. But he has an incredible backlog; if we help him out somehow, maybe we can get him to scan some sections of the survey. It also had some Fujitsu sales brochures, but I don't remember if I included any tape brochures. If Al doesn't have a manual you need on a Fujitsu product, let me know. I gave all my manuals to one of the engineers who worked for me. I talked to him recently, and he believes he still has them all in his garage. When I move back to the Bay area in August, I'll go through them - compare to what is on bitsavers and try to scan the delta to add to bitsavers. At this point, there is so much to be scanned that I'm reluctant to give anything to Al unless there is a demand for it. He already has backlogged years of stuff ready for scanning today. It's well past time that the rest of us interested in the hobby pitch in. This shouldn't be a one man effort. We all benefit from saving this data. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 9 19:10:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:10:16 -0700 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <4619FC7B.2060605@philpem.me.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk>, <4619003F.278.3F39795E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4619FC7B.2060605@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461A7378.14499.44E39043@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2007 at 9:42, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I think I've found the problem though - good ol' drive select issues. Based on > the pinout I had, I expected that I'd have to activate /MOTEN_A (pin 10) and > /DRVSEL_A (pin 14) to get the drive to spin and output data. That assumption > was wrong - the drive wants pin 16 (/MOTEN_B according to my pinout) low, and > either /DRVSEL_A or /DRVSEL_B low depending on how the drive is jumpered. I think I know what your problem is. You've been getting your information off that great propoganda-machine, the World-Wide-Web. No kidding; it's downright amazing how few sites have real information and the remainder just parrot them, falsehoods and all. There is no such signal as MOTEN_B. There is but a single motor enable pin for all drives and it's pin 16. The web sites seem to get the PC end of a floppy connector mixed up with the drive end. Here's an "honest" pinout list for a drive: 2 /DCD Disk Change Detect/Density Select (depends on jumper) 4 /DS3 Device Select 3. 6 NC 8 /INDEX Index 10 /DS0 Device Select 0 12 /DS1 Device Select 1 14 /DS2 Device Select 2 16 /MTRON Motor On 18 /DIR Direction 20 /STEP Step 22 /WDATA Write Data 24 /WGATE Write Gate 26 /TK00 Track 0 28 /WRPT Write Protected 30 /RDATA Read Data 32 /SIDE1 Head Select 34 /RDY Ready or /DCD (depends on jumper) Odd pins are common GND. There are some exceptions to the above. Some NEC drives, in particular, define some signals differently. If you examine the above drive pinout, you will immediately understand why IBM went with the "twisted" drive cable. It was not so every drive could be set to DS1, but rather so that the motor on each drive could be individually controlled. Some DTC hard disk controllers flout this convention and allow for 4 drives on a single "straight through" cable, and run the motors on all drives at the same time. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 17:41:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > On 9 Apr 2007 at 3:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Hmm, so maybe the trick is to find someone selling > an old MK3 board, rather > > than the MK4... I don't know if this is at all relevant (and really don't care besides LOL), but I have an apparently early CopyII board that has all discrete logic. If I was presumed upon nicely enough, I could unearth it and post pictures and whatnot. On second thought...NAH LOL LOL. Fred says it won't do GCR, so I guess it's value relative to later boards is minimal. ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 18:04:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Insanely stupid! Message-ID: <419458.12683.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> now ain't that subject line an attention grabber. Not exactly what you'd call a Mac related topic...at least not so much to me. But simply an opportunity to appreciate a particularly rare, exceedingly beautific (arty?) piece of vintage crappola. I posted this in the Tandy 2000 Yahoo group a few hours ago and thought I'd share it with the remainder of my faithful followers on this list. Yes your gratitude is well received. You can view the subject of the thread here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tandy2000/ you don't have to join, but what would be the reason not to??? my gosh it's soo beautiful *snifful* I can barely stand it ... I'm referring to the picture of the Xerox 16/8 I placed on the front page. I challenge ANYONE to find a more luxurious looking vintij puter.In reality, that box isn't the "puter" at all, but the drive expansion unit. The computer logic is embedded in the monitor - the Xerox 16/8 proper. It has an 8086 and a Z80 for the best of those worlds (but no it's not peecee compatible, but that sure done didn't make a difference back in them days. Nuh uh. We all bought puters like it, and lived to tell the tale...). My particular 16/8 is in exceptionally good shape, but I believe the hard drive is bad. When I had learned of it's existence I guess 2 years ago (that guy in N.Carolina, uh vintagemicros? had one up for bidding, w/the caption "Insanely Great!", no doubt trying to cast it as a Macintosh predecessor (cpu and crt integral sparky)), I did a search, and found a guy w/one in Maryland. The origins of the Mac are not estranged from Xerox corp. I guess, but the resemblance between a Mac and the 16/8 is somewhat hard to define other than what I pointed out. I rather suggest the caption should have read "Insanely Stoopit!" LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL A thoroughly beautific piece of vintage garbage though wouldn't you say? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 18:25:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <20070409192104.B276E583DE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <863634.42017.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar > Ayengar > > > > I have a truly gigantic pile (pile takes up more > space than many of my > > mainframe CPU's) of 8-bit ethernet NIC's. Are > they really that rare? > > > > I would hate to be the NIC at the bottom of that > pile! %-( > > Cheers, > > Bryan This reminds me of a firesale I once attended in Middletown, NY. A local chain in Long Island called Computer Factory rented out a warehouse and proceeded to sell off loads and loads of groovy stuff. Tucked in the back of the place was a huge cardboard box filled to the brim w/apparently flawed isa cards and whatnot. To walk by that area was like walking through a ticker tape parade of copper clad epoxy. At the time I really couldn't understand what they were getting all excited over. Scrounging ram chips? I didn't care much though. I bought my first VGA card for I think $32. I bought a brand new ram expansion package for the Mac Plus (still got it) for $10. One lady was looking to tackle me for it. And I didn't even own a Mac LOL LOL. Most of the prices were pretty reasonable, but the brand new MS Fortran package, sealed, 10.0 IIRC, was going for either $100 or $200, and I said no way. I was real real sorry I had missed an earlier sale somewhere in Nassau or Queens. Brand new in the box Lisas were going for $200. This was in 1990. I'm curious what those who did purchase them up intend to so with them. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 18:36:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> OI a p-90 is anything but vintage. If you want to talk about vintage Linux, get a 386 and we'll consider it maybe. OI I did pick up a book entitled "Plug and Play Linux" last year at TCF. The disk was included *bad* but the cd was not unfortunately. I can't seem to remember what distro was included, I want to say Yggdrasil, but I'm probably wrong. In any event it probably should have been dubbed plug-n-pray. Anyone know what I'm talking about, or have the cd? The cover had this illustration on it: http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2003/weinberger04.jpg --- Ensor wrote: > I've recently been looking at setting up an old HP > Vectra P-90 to run Linux > (or some form of *nix) and started wondering what > ports exist for "classic" > systems. > > Looking around I see that "NetBSD" in particular > supports quite a few > architectures including VAX, SGI, NeXT etc etc, but > I've struck out > regarding Linux ports. > > So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux > ports to architectures > other than PC's. And what modern *nix ports, if any, > do other list members > use on their classic iron? > > > TTFN - Pete. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 9 18:13:32 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:13:32 +0100 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! Message-ID: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> Hi folks, I've got the first stage of my floppy disc reader working! Meaning, the data separator and synchroniser works - I have a circuit that outputs a pulse whenever the MFM 'magic sync sequence' (0x4489) is detected. In theory, I can use that to sync the reader against sector boundaries on IBM-format discs, or track boundaries on Amiga discs. The data separator is an Verilog HDL reimplementation of the data separator used in Petr Simandl's Sinclair Spectrum +2A floppy disc controller (, but there's a better quality schematic at ). I'm driving the whole thing off a 32MHz TTL oscillator, divided down to 16MHz for 3.5" DSHD, and 8MHz for 3.5" DSDD. I haven't tried FM encoded data yet, though I have no reason to suspect it won't work, as long as I can figure out what the clock divider needs to be set to. I'm seriously miffed that I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why I could get the separator to lock onto a DSDD disc but not a DSHD - seems most of my DSHD discs are of marginal quality. The MPF920 in my desktop read them fine, but the rather battered Panasonic JU-257A427P (complete with broken drive door return spring) I was using with the FDR couldn't read them at all, hence the huge number of SYNC pulses. Garbage in, garbage out. I guess the next step is to do the RAM interface and bit timer, then the MCU interface and firmware. The whole thing is currently squashed into a Xilinx XC9572XL 3.3V CPLD, with a little room to spare for the acquisition circuitry. The data-separator and sync detector are only using 29 of the 72 available logic macrocells, so I've probably got enough room for a 16-bit RAM address latch, with space to spare. Can't really tell until I start implementing it though. Current power consumption is roughly 5V at 325mA while reading, according to the display on my bench PSU. For anyone who cares, I've thrown a couple of screenshots from my logic analyser on my website: Main blog entry: 720k (250kbps) sync - with SYNC lagging by one DWIN transition: 1.44MB (500kbps) sync - revised sync logic - SYNC doesn't lag now: If anyone wants to see the (messy) Verilog code I've got at the moment, contact me off-list and I'll send you a copy. It's probably very badly written, but it works. The tool I used to grab the screenshots from the analyser (a HP 1651B) is also due to go online 'at some point' (read: when I can be bothered to fix some of the bugs)... It basically emulates a HP Thinkjet and converts the graphics output into a .BMP file, which is then converted to a PNG with Irfanview and PNGOUT. If and when this project gets a bit further off the ground, I plan to set up another mailing list to handle discussions related to the disc reader -- for now, though, I think it's probably best to keep the discussions on the classiccmp list. For anyone that cares, I'll be posting announcements on the 'floppy-reader' mailing list on my server (). It's open-access, so anyone that feels like commenting is welcome to do so. Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 9 18:46:13 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:46:13 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461AD045.8050706@philpem.me.uk> Ensor wrote: > So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux ports to > architectures other than PC's. And what modern *nix ports, if any, do > other list members use on their classic iron? Debian runs on HP PA-RISC, SPARC (Sun workstations and servers mainly), MIPS (SGI kit), PowerPC (PowerMacs) and the DEC Alpha, among others: Linux-VAX runs on VAXen: Google is your friend... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 9 19:20:20 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 09, 2007 10:54:21 PM Message-ID: <200704100020.l3A0KLx0000928@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've recently been looking at setting up an old HP Vectra P-90 to run Linux > (or some form of *nix) and started wondering what ports exist for "classic" > systems. > > Looking around I see that "NetBSD" in particular supports quite a few > architectures including VAX, SGI, NeXT etc etc, but I've struck out > regarding Linux ports. > > So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux ports to architectures > other than PC's. And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members > use on their classic iron? > > > TTFN - Pete. > OpenBSD supports a fair number of architectures as well. I'm honestly not sure what all Linux runs on these days, as I am only interested in running it on fast modern Intel EM64T boxes :^) In the past I've run OpenBSD on Alpha, Sparc, and UltraSparc, including on my Tadpole Sparcbook. I've also run NetBSD on a DEC MIPS system (bought specifically to run NetBSD). I personally prefer not to run Unix on classic hardware that can run a non-Unix OS (for example an Amiga, VAX, or PDP-11). There are plenty of systems where you're limited to Unix, and I like my Unix fast. Why on earth should I waste a platform that will run an interesting non-Unix OS running Unix? BTW, obviously x86 boxes don't fall under this rule. Zane From jmiles007 at iquest.net Mon Apr 9 18:47:12 2007 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:47:12 -0400 Subject: TU56 Rack Mounting question In-Reply-To: <9263530.1176128781326.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9263530.1176128781326.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000901c77b01$65278120$2f768360$@net> Ashley wrote: > > Another question.... > Does a TU56 normally have rack-mount rails? I have two TU56 drives and > neither of them have rails. How are these typically mounted? No rails at all, they just bolt directly to the front rack mounting holes with four screws and clip nuts (keeper nuts as DEC calls them) on each side. The only access is the flip down front panel. The TU56 Maintenance manual describes a support plate and two spacers that bolt between the front rack uprights at the bottom of where you are going to mount the TU56, presumably to keep the uprights from spreading apart and to give you something to rest the TU56 on while you bolt it in. I don't have any of these for either of my TU56s. The manual also recommends removing the whole front transport panel and motors, mounting the main housing in the rack, and then reinstalling the front panel. That's the way I did it since the whole thing is 80 lbs. and I didn't have three people to help me nor a nice equipment lift like Guy..... Jon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 9 18:01:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 18:01:23 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461A7DEB.8020606@bitsavers.org> References: <461A7DEB.8020606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <461AC5C3.5070009@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I was thinking the same thing with this concept of over-sampling the > entire > > track into a buffer > > If you are familiar with logic analyzers, this is the difference between > state > and timing modes. The CW is like timing mode, and has a high clock > resolution, > and is run-length encoded. > > Oversampling requires you to transfer a LOT of samples, which are mostly > the same. > > Eric Smith and I built an oversampling reader about five years ago. It > was impractical because of the time it took to transfer all of the samples. Indeed - five years ago it probably wasn't practical. But: a) Local removable storage is a far bigger option than it would have been 5 years ago. b) Line transmission technology's improved considerably since then, with faster data rates and convenient ICs to take a lot of the headache out of interfacing. c) For the majority of cases, a system with something like Imagedisk will do the job; the slower over-sampling reader's only used for those formats which require the extra analysis. (plus of course lots of samples that are mostly the same implies there's scope for achieving reasonably good compression on the data - even if the compression's only done for the purposes of transferring the data from one place to another) cheers Jules From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 9 19:17:48 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:17:48 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca> <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200704091717.48654.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 09 April 2007 10:28, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Apr 2007 at 3:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hmm, so maybe the trick is to find someone selling an old MK3 board, > > rather than the MK4... > > Is the MK4 real? It's not clear from Jens' web site. If it is, I'll > probably buy one. I bought my MK4 a few months ago from SoftwareHut. They have them in their current online catalog below: http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/accelerators/catweaselmkiv.html SoftwareHut also carries older Cat Weasels and other controllers: http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/accelerators/io_index.html Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 9 17:25:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:25:05 -0400 Subject: TU56 Rack Mounting question In-Reply-To: <9263530.1176128781326.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9263530.1176128781326.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <180E1FCA-7F5B-4B3B-B036-A304479D3549@neurotica.com> On Apr 9, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Ashley Carder wrote: > Another question.... > Does a TU56 normally have rack-mount rails? I have two TU56 drives > and neither of them have rails. How are these typically mounted? I don't know if this is "DEC standard" or not, but my TU56 is mounted without rails using screws through the front. Despite the impressive weight of the TU56, the sheet metal frame seems to be more than beefy enough to handle it. I have a TU56 manual somewhere; if I can find it I will look it up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From michaelryan at mindspring.com Mon Apr 9 17:32:52 2007 From: michaelryan at mindspring.com (Michael A. Ryan) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery re: MCM66128L20 Message-ID: <31269137.1176157972457.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I am looking for information about this part; I have something of a mystery on my hands. At issue is a 512K IBM memory card that is part of the PC/XT 370 option (from 1984). The card I have has 18 stacked chips comprising 512K of RAM; the top chip of one of the pairs was broken off. The top chips are stamped MCM66128L20; the bottom chips have no part number. I could only find the part through a broker (and I paid $25 for it). I can't find a spec sheet but expected to receive a stacked part (most likely, two 64K chips stacked to make a "128K" chip. When the new chips arrived (after I signed munitions documents), they weren't stacked pairs. That left me to wonder whether the new parts are a later rev that incorporates all the circuits into one package or whether (more troublesome) the bottom chip of the pair is now a complete unmarked mystery. The chips were soldered together, not welded. So . . . I soldered one of the new chips onto the top of the bottom chip. I figured that if that action was a bust, I could still remove the bottom chip and replace both with one of my new ones. Much to my surprise, the board now passes memory diagnostics. Does anyone have a book with a spec sheet on this part number and possibly any insight into what is going on with the (unmarked) bottom one? There are some pictures of the project at:- www.xt370.net including the board and the chips. On the second page (click on 'more restoration photos') you can see the missing top chip. The code on the new chips is 8407BQD. The old chips say BQD8431. Thanks, Michael Ryan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 9 19:17:16 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 01:17:16 +0100 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: References: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <461AD78C.8040101@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/04/2007 20:44, David Betz wrote: > You were right about needing to switch drive select to 3. That made it > possible to format the RD54 drive. Good! > It formatted successfully with 40 bad > LBNs and 7 retired. I also tried formatting my five RD53s and one > formatted successfully with 27 bad LBNs. The other four failed to even > be detected as far as I can tell. Is there any point in playing with > these or would I be better off just trashing them? RD53s are notoriously unreliable, but I'm surprised that four out of five simply aren't detected. Are they genuine DEC RD53s? You need to add a PCB link to an ordinary Micropolis 1325 or 1335 drive to make it an RD53. Look on the PCB for the location marked R7 (remove two screws and carefully hinge it up) -- if there's nothing there, solder a link in that position. Oh, and don't use a skid plate with bare metal with an RD53, as it can short things out. > Also, how bad are 27-40 bad LBNs? I know that they can be mapped out but > is this a sign that the drive is dying? That's not too bad, probably. This is an old drive, with no intelligence to map out bad sectors itself. Many drives start life with a few bad blocks, and I'd only worry if the number increased over time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 9 18:58:16 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:58:16 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070409235816.29A98BA439C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Ensor" wrote: > I've recently been looking at setting up an old HP Vectra P-90 to run Linux > (or some form of *nix) and started wondering what ports exist for "classic" > systems. > > Looking around I see that "NetBSD" in particular supports quite a few > architectures including VAX, SGI, NeXT etc etc, but I've struck out > regarding Linux ports. > > So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux ports to architectures > other than PC's. bash-3.00$ cd /usr/src bash-3.00$ ls linux-2.6.17.4 linux-2.6.17.4.tar.bz2 bash-3.00$ cd linux-2.6.17.4 bash-3.00$ ls COPYING MAINTAINERS arch fs kernel scripts CREDITS Makefile block include lib security Documentation README crypto init mm sound Kbuild REPORTING-BUGS drivers ipc net usr bash-3.00$ cd arch bash-3.00$ ls alpha cris i386 m68k parisc s390 sparc v850 arm frv ia64 m68knommu powerpc sh sparc64 x86_64 arm26 h8300 m32r mips ppc sh64 um xtensa > And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members > use on their classic iron? FBOFW, modern "free" *nix ports tend to use gcc, and gcc is such a resource hog for anything smaller than a VAX. Even on a VAX it's colossaly slow. Not on a VAX, but small and spritely, is Minix. The Amsterdam Compiler Kit wasn't free, though! The thought of a Unix without a compiler is not very well accepted in hackerdom (or, at least by me), even though I despise C compared to high level languages like SNOBOL and FOCAL. Tim. From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 9 18:28:10 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:28:10 -0700 Subject: TU56 Rack Mounting question References: <9263530.1176128781326.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <055c01c77afe$bde01690$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ashley Carder" > Does a TU56 normally have rack-mount rails? I have two TU56 drives and > neither of them have rails. > How are these typically mounted? On mine, if I flip down the front panel, I can see four screws through the flange of the box, on each side. AFAIK, it just bolts in there with the standard clip nuts and #10-32 screws. Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 9 20:15:08 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 21:15:08 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system Message-ID: <0JG900AEJCQM4E0B@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system > From: David Betz > Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:44:04 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> utility on the XXDP disk. I took all of the defaults and got the >>> following failure. Does this indicate that my RQDX3 controller is >>> bad or is this likely to indicate a bad hard drive? >> >> Since the controller handles the RX50 OK, almost all of it must be >> working. If the LED on the RQDX3 goes out a few seconds after >> resetting, with the RD54 disconnected, the RQDX3 has passed its >> self-test. From the error, I'd say possibly the RD54 has never >> been formatted on an RQDX3, or more likely something is wrong with >> the jumpers or connections. >> >> Double check that the drive select jumper is correct (normally it >> should be DS3; does the drive's LED flash when you run ZRQC?), that >> the little control board in the front of your BA23/BA123 with the >> READY and WRT PROT buttons is properly connected and those switches >> are set correctly, and that the cables from the distribution panel >> are connected correctly (with both the RD54 cables connected to the >> lower-numbered port). It's just possible you have too old a >> version of the firmware on the RQDX3 (what are the EPROM numbers?) >> or that its jumpers (eg W23) are set wrongly, but this is less >> likely I think. > >You were right about needing to switch drive select to 3. That made >it possible to format the RD54 drive. It formatted successfully with >40 bad LBNs and 7 retired. I also tried formatting my five RD53s and >one formatted successfully with 27 bad LBNs. The other four failed to >even be detected as far as I can tell. Is there any point in playing >with these or would I be better off just trashing them? I'd explore swapping boards or rechecking jumpers first, the try ZRQC? again. RD53s tend to have spindown disorder, spin up then spindown. If they do that generally there is a fix. If they spin up and you can hear the head mech load then something else likely on the boards is bad or wrong. >Also, how bad are 27-40 bad LBNs? I know that they can be mapped out >but is this a sign that the drive is dying? Thats common for MFM drives and the OS or controller will manage it usually. However, if you see an increasing number of bad LBNs or they are all on one head that can be an indicator of impending failure. Allison From davebarnes at adelphia.net Mon Apr 9 20:04:24 2007 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:04:24 -0400 Subject: 9 track drive wanted Message-ID: Anyone have a 9 track SCSI (preferred) or pertect interface tape drive in the Western NY area they want to part with? thanks David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 9 20:14:52 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:14:52 -0500 Subject: Emergency Moderation Mode off Message-ID: <008601c77b0d$a48b91b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm going to turn off the emergency moderation mode, as the list appears to have settled down. I'm impressed with how things have been going - ontopic and cordial - it is most appreciated. Only a few posts were rejected during moderation time, and one person unsubscribed due to my "heavy-handedness". I'm hoping we can keep up the trend without full-on moderation. Thanks a bunch, and sorry for the slowness the past couple weeks! I'd humbly suggest that before posting - think for a second. It may defuse things in the future! Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 9 20:34:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Chris M wrote: > early CopyII board that has all discrete logic. If I > . . . > Fred says it won't do GCR, so I guess it's value > relative to later boards is minimal. IF you mean me, the early OB would certainly do GCR, but it could not handle some of the data rates for Mac disks. That was one of the design goals for the "Deluxe" OB. My experience was that both were flaky for high density (500kbps) I used them in XTs, both OEM and generic, and in almost OEM ATs. Never had any success with faster machines than that. Because the software was overly reliant on the index pulse, it couldn't do the back side of a ][ "flippy", nor hard sectored. So, one day we made up a copy protection system that it could not handle, although DISKCOPY would. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 9 21:08:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:08:36 -0700 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 0:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've got the first stage of my floppy disc reader working! Meaning, the > data separator and synchroniser works - I have a circuit that outputs a pulse > whenever the MFM 'magic sync sequence' (0x4489) is detected. In theory, I can > use that to sync the reader against sector boundaries on IBM-format discs, or > track boundaries on Amiga discs. Philip, it sounds like an interesting project. However, I've got an itch in my brain that I can't seem to scratch. If you're doing bit transition timings, why even bother to have an AM detector or data separator? You can do all of that in software. Are you restricting your design to MFM and FM encodings? IWhat am I missing here? Cheers, Chuck From ken at seefried.com Mon Apr 9 21:11:49 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:11:49 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704100104.l3A145Ol090049@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704100104.l3A145Ol090049@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070410021149.12050.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Ensor" > Looking around I see that "NetBSD" in particular supports quite a few > architectures including VAX, SGI, NeXT etc etc, NetBSD is, right or wrong, noted as the run-on-anything Unix (for various values of run). That said, since the people doing a lot of the paid development are focused on highish-end embedded systems, they are less interested in slavish devotion to ancient systems. Things like GCC also have a huge impact. A few ports have recently died (anything ns32000 (e.g. pc532) due to GCC dropping support), some are discussed but never gestated (pdp10, pc-rt) and some are more moribund than others (vax, though there has been significant effort recently). The 2.x and 3.x releases have bloated to obscene proportions, like needing more than 8M of memory (;^}). > So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux ports to architectures > other than PC's. And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members > use on their classic iron? You can browse the source code under "arch" and see what ports are committed. For example: http://lxr.linux.no/source/arch/. This doesn't tell the whole story, as there are at least a handful of wildcat ports that never made mainline. From pechter at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 21:17:29 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 22:17:29 -0400 Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? In-Reply-To: <0JG8009T2X7XTW92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JG8009T2X7XTW92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: I've seen one power conditioner buzz. It was at NY Telephone and it buzzed and shot sparks when the three phase input lost one phase and the 11/70 was feeding back through the power controller... Shot sparks out too. The Union electrticians had just left for the day (4pm Friday) when they blew out a phase at the central office when a big honking fuse blew in Williamsburg Brooklyn... Took down a lot of the AC powered stuff in the central office. I gave up on trying to get the 11/70 up and went home to New Jersey for the weekend. Bill On 4/9/07, Allison wrote: > > > > >Subject: Re: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:26:53 +0100 (BST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > >> > >> "Jay West" wrote: > >> ... > >> >DEC H960 Rack with 861C power controller > >> ... > >> > >> Which reminds me. I plugged in an 861C yesterday. The breaker seemed > a > >> bit "dodgie" as they say, and didn't seem to want to stay on. I > finally > > > >They normally ared a bit tricky to get to latch on. > > I have three of them here and I've never had a "dodgy" breaker, they latch > quite firmly. > > > > > >> got it to stay on but when I plugged it in I got a loud buzzing sound > >> from inside the "box". The switch was set to "local". > >> > >> There was nothing else plugged in and the breaker didn't pop but I > didn't > >> like the sound and unplugged it. I've never opened an 861C up - what's > > > >Well, you have one. Do you own a screwdriver :-) > > > >Seriously they come apart very easily (just a few screws holding the > >cover on). Obviously unplug it ffrom the mains before you start, but > >there's no serieosu stored charge inside (there are mains filter > >capacitors, but they're quite small). > > > >> inside? I would have thought it was just A/C distribution but I guess > >> there must be a relay come to think of it. > > > >I can't remember which the -C version is (there are at least 5 models, > >115V and 230V, single and 3 phase inputs, etc). > > > >The bnsic design is much the same for all of them. There's a breaker and > >mains filter, the output of that goes to the unswitched sockets, and also > >to a contactor (big relay). The output of the contactor goes to the > >swtiched sockets. > > > >There's a little control PCB inside as well. IIRC in the 861 it contains > >an unregulated supply and a reed relay with 2 coil windings, and some > >diodes. > > > >As you may know, the 3 pin mate-n-lock ocnnectors on the power > >controllers allow you to link up several such controllers so that turning > >on the CPU consople switch also turns on every other part of the system. > >The 3 pins on those conenctors are ground, ground-for-on, and > >ground-for-off, with the last taking priority. The sonsole switch is > >wirted between ground and ground-for-on, any overheating-detection themal > >swtiches are wired between ground and ground-for-off. That way, if any > >part of the system overheats, the whole lot gets turned off. > > > >IIRC, the reed relay has a differentially-wound coil. Grounding the > >ground-for-on line turns the relay on. Grounding the ground-fo-off line, > >if the ground-for-on line is also grounded, will cause both windings to > >be energinsed, the magnetic fields cancel, and the reed relay turns off. > > > >The contacts of the reed relay cotnrol the contactor. This is a problem > >in 230V models, the reed relay is really only rated for 115V, and tends > >to suffer from contact welding when used to switch the 230V contactor > >coil. I've had to thump my 861 to get it to turn off. > > > >Anyway, the contactor does buzz a bit anyway. if you're getting mains at > >the swithced outltes, it should be fine (if you don't get mains there, > >the contactor may not be pulling in properly. In that case it'll buzz > >like mad, and will also burn out fairly quickly.). > > > >A fault on the cotnrol buard is unlikely to cause buxxing. The control > >elemenets, the reed relay and the contactor, are too slow to repsond at > >60Hz. So even if there's ripple on the cotnrol board supply, it doesn't > >normally cause the thing to buzz. > > The buss is nothing bad. Usually it's just the contactor mechanically > buzzing I have only one that does that and either cycling it or giving > it a sound rap (purcusive maintenace) makes it quiet down. > > > Allison > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 9 21:18:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:18:55 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461A919F.10200.455955F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2007 at 18:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > Because the software was overly reliant on the index pulse, it couldn't do > the back side of a ][ "flippy", nor hard sectored. > So, one day we made up a copy protection system that it could not handle, > although DISKCOPY would. It could handle "half-tracked" ][ diskettes? Cheers, Chuck From nolandoakley at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 21:20:09 2007 From: nolandoakley at gmail.com (Noland Oakley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:20:09 -0700 Subject: What's going on with 68kmla.net? Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0704091920s13bb96f3j7e4f490e8f9cb0f1@mail.gmail.com> I've noticed that 68kmla.net has been down for quite a while now and still is. Does anyone know what happened? Will it be coming back? I certainly hope it's not going to disappear... :-( From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 9 21:35:41 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:35:41 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: References: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <461AF7FD.7090801@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: >>> utility on the XXDP disk. I took all of the defaults and got the >>> following failure. Does this indicate that my RQDX3 controller is >>> bad or is this likely to indicate a bad hard drive? >> >> >> Since the controller handles the RX50 OK, almost all of it must be >> working. If the LED on the RQDX3 goes out a few seconds after >> resetting, with the RD54 disconnected, the RQDX3 has passed its >> self-test. From the error, I'd say possibly the RD54 has never been >> formatted on an RQDX3, or more likely something is wrong with the >> jumpers or connections. >> >> Double check that the drive select jumper is correct (normally it >> should be DS3; does the drive's LED flash when you run ZRQC?), that >> the little control board in the front of your BA23/BA123 with the >> READY and WRT PROT buttons is properly connected and those switches >> are set correctly, and that the cables from the distribution panel >> are connected correctly (with both the RD54 cables connected to the >> lower-numbered port). It's just possible you have too old a version >> of the firmware on the RQDX3 (what are the EPROM numbers?) or that >> its jumpers (eg W23) are set wrongly, but this is less likely I think. > > > You were right about needing to switch drive select to 3. That made > it possible to format the RD54 drive. It formatted successfully with > 40 bad LBNs and 7 retired. I also tried formatting my five RD53s and > one formatted successfully with 27 bad LBNs. The other four failed to > even be detected as far as I can tell. Is there any point in playing > with these or would I be better off just trashing them? Jerome Fine replies: Great going in that you have been successful with an RX50 and XXDP. The naming of programs is interesting when there are only 6 letters. As for the DS3 drive select, I did not think you were not aware. HOWEVER, if you are ever able to connect a second RD54 within the BA23 box environment, the NEXT drive select is DS4. The last time (and only time) I forgot and left 2 * RD52 drives at DS3, the Low Level Format (LLF) was destroyed on both drives. If you ever get a BA123, the RD5n distribution board in slot 13 allows 4 hard drives and all are then set to DS3. If you are going to consider fixing the RD53s by removing the head stopper, i.e. removing the cover, etc., then you may want to keep your RD53s until you decide. Otherwise, give them to some one who wants to perform the operation. That will not be myself since I already have a good supply of RD53 drives that need fixing. > > Also, how bad are 27-40 bad LBNs? I know that they can be mapped out > but is this a sign that the drive is dying? If you consider how many blocks in 159 MBytes, that is VERY few! And the bad LBNs are mapped out during the format. The software only sees a continuous map even though the RDQX3 will substitute blocks from the end (AFAIK) of the drive which does slow things down just a bit, but not enough to be concerned. Based on my understanding of how long an RD54 lasts, I doubt that your RD54 is dying. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 9 22:07:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461A919F.10200.455955F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> <461A919F.10200.455955F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070409200525.M65201@shell.lmi.net> > > Because the software was overly reliant on the index pulse, it couldn't do > > the back side of a ][ "flippy", nor hard sectored. > > So, one day we made up a copy protection system that it could not handle, > > although DISKCOPY would. On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It could handle "half-tracked" ][ diskettes? I doubt it; the supplied software did not know many tricks But, it also could not handle a perfectly "normal" 360K PC diskette that happened to not have an index hole. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 9 22:08:15 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:08:15 -0400 Subject: What's going on with 68kmla.net? References: <5dc6fd9e0704091920s13bb96f3j7e4f490e8f9cb0f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ee01c77b1d$7bd5b6a0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noland Oakley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 10:20 PM Subject: What's going on with 68kmla.net? > I've noticed that 68kmla.net has been down for quite a while now and still > is. Does anyone know what happened? Will it be coming back? I certainly hope > it's not going to disappear... :-( Server issues I guess from talking to one of the owners. How many people here are members? From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 9 22:27:07 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 04:27:07 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > OI a p-90 is anything but vintage.... I know, I wasn't suggesting it was.... ;-) It's just that it's the only machine I have lying around at the moment, capable of running *nix, which is relatively complete (anyone got a spare set of mounting rails for a floppy drive and a CD-ROM drive for an HP Vectra, I've mislaid mine). >....If you want to talk about vintage Linux, get a 386 >and we'll consider it maybe. OI Fresh out of '386s, would an "XT-286" do? I was more concerned with running it on a VAX/SGI/Sun/NeXT box though....rather have a single distribution for all of them rather than having to learn the niggles and vagueries of several different distributions. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 9 22:33:47 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 04:33:47 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461AD045.8050706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <001d01c77b21$61fc2440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Debian runs on HP PA-RISC, SPARC (Sun workstations and servers >mainly), MIPS (SGI kit), PowerPC (PowerMacs) and the DEC Alpha, >among others: Thanks, I'll take a look. I remember Debian from the last time I dabbled with Linux in 1996 (gave up after 6 months and switched to Win95). > Linux-VAX runs on VAXen: That's the one I had at the back of my mind when I asked the question, I'll go do some digging around their site. > Google is your friend... First place I looked....too much information though.... TTFN - Pete. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 9 22:44:34 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410021149.12050.qmail@seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Apr 9, 7 10:11:49 pm" Message-ID: <200704100344.l3A3iYUM011232@floodgap.com> > The 2.x and 3.x releases have bloated to obscene proportions, like needing > more than 8M of memory (;^}). And people wonder why the Macs here are "stuck" at 1.6.*. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From nolandoakley at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 23:11:16 2007 From: nolandoakley at gmail.com (Noland Oakley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:11:16 -0700 Subject: What's going on with 68kmla.net? In-Reply-To: <00ee01c77b1d$7bd5b6a0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0704091920s13bb96f3j7e4f490e8f9cb0f1@mail.gmail.com> <00ee01c77b1d$7bd5b6a0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0704092111v269405b8t951d9c07f7f092bd@mail.gmail.com> On 4/9/07, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > Server issues I guess from talking to one of the owners. How many people > here are members? > > I'm a member, are they in need of donations? If so how much and how do they accept payment? :-) From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 10 00:05:35 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:05:35 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <461B1B1F.8030702@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: >> On 9 Apr 2007 at 3:17, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> Hmm, so maybe the trick is to find someone selling >> an old MK3 board, rather >>> than the MK4... > > I don't know if this is at all relevant (and really > don't care besides LOL), but I have an apparently > early CopyII board that has all discrete logic. If I Yes, I have one too. So there are four revs, but the first two are the OB, the third with the single "transcopy" IC is the DOB, and the mid-length board with the switch on the back is the Enhanced OB (the switch is to facilitate laser-hole disks). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Apr 10 00:05:39 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:05:39 -0700 Subject: SuperCartridge 3: Pre-scrap... Message-ID: <200704092205390037.05941CBD@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, I have a SuperCartridge 3 font module, as used with the old HP LaserJet 3 printers. Before I remove and erase its EPROMs for recycling/re-use, does anyone have need of the module itself or the data in the EPROMs? If I don't hear back by, oh... Thursday or so, I'll assume not. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 10 00:07:11 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:07:11 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461B1B7F.4030202@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Because the software was overly reliant on the index pulse, it couldn't do > the back side of a ][ "flippy", nor hard sectored. Confused; the software has an option that lets you ignore syncing to the index hole. Maybe you tested with a very early version of the software. Also, since stock IBM hardware/OS needs the index hole, I fail to see how DISKCOPY could copy such a beast. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 00:07:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:07:16 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461AB914.11402.45F377D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 4:27, Ensor wrote: > It's just that it's the only machine I have lying around at the moment, > capable of running *nix, which is relatively complete (anyone got a spare > set of mounting rails for a floppy drive and a CD-ROM drive for an HP > Vectra, I've mislaid mine). When HP went to the PII Vectra VL systems, they got rid of the need for mounting rails (just plain old screw-through-a-hole mounting), so they're pretty hard to find in my experience. While it's not hard to make up a set if you have access to a sheet metal brake, it'd be nice to have an extra "factory original" set. FWIW, the old Vectra VL's are just the ticket for fooling around with old cards. PCI and ISA slots on a horizontal daughterboard and they're easy to get at. A nice reminder of how well HP PCs used to be built. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 10 00:14:49 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:14:49 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> Ensor wrote: > I was more concerned with running it on a VAX/SGI/Sun/NeXT box Your only serious consideration is netBSD, as you've found out. Linux's roots were x86 so it hasn't been ported to nearly as many platforms. For low-resource x86 computing, you can run Minix on an 808x, and several variants of AT&T or SCO on 286, and there's an older version of Coherent that runs on 286 (3.x and earlier). I'm biased toward Coherent of course... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From nolandoakley at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 00:20:41 2007 From: nolandoakley at gmail.com (Noland Oakley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 22:20:41 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS In-Reply-To: <200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com> References: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org> <200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0704092220s4560198dx12fe2b5df23d77e8@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Star Trek isn't OS X, it was classic Mac OS, and was long dead before even > Rhapsody emerged. See Apple Confidential 2.0 for more than you ever wanted > to > know about it. > > Star Trek project From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search *For the science fiction media franchise, see Star Trek .* *Star Trek* was the code name given to a prototypeproject at Apple Computer during 1992 and 1993. Star Trek was to be a version of the Macintosh operating system which ran on Intel-compatible x86 personal computers(at that time, the Mac OS ran only on Apple's own computers based on the Motorola 68000 architecture). The project's slogan was "To boldly go where no Mac has gone before." The developers eventually reached a point where they could boot an Intel 486PC (with very specific hardware) into System 7 , and on-screen it was indistinguishable from a Mac. However, *every* program needed to be ported to the new x86 architecture in order to run. Supposedly programs could be ported with little effort because Apple developed equivalent headers for x86. The project was a joint development with Novell(although Apple provided the majority of engineers). Novell at the time was one the leaders of cross-platform file-servers, and the plan was that Novell would market the resulting OS as a challenge to Microsoft Windows. However, the project was cancelled in mid-1993 because of political infighting, personnel issues, and the questionable marketability of such a project. Fear that the new operating system would hurt Apple's hardware sales presumably played a role. [edit ] Legacies Although a direct *x*86 port was never released to the public, one could run the classic Mac OS on non-Mac computers through emulationand the development of these was spurred by the failure of the Star Trek project.[*citation needed*]Two of the more popular Macintosh emulators are vMac and Basilisk II, both written by third parties. Ten years after Project Star Trek, it became possible to natively run Darwin, the Unix -based core of Mac OS X, on the x86 platform, by virtue of its open source Apple Public Source Licenseand NeXT base. However, the OS X graphical user interface , named Aqua , is proprietary and is not included with the x86 port of Darwin. Apple ran a similar project to Star Trek for Mac OS X. This project was rumored to be code-named Marklar(although often referred to as "Star Trek, the NeXT Generation" on rumor sites). Marklar's task was to keep Mac OS X and all supporting applications (including iLife and Xcode) running on the x86 architecture as well as that of the PowerPC. Marklar was revealed by Apple's CEO Steve Jobs in June 2005, when he announced the Macintosh transition to Intel processors starting in 2006. [edit ] See also - Apple Intel transition - OSx86 [edit ] External links - Quest for the Operating SystemStar Trek from Kernelthread - Star Trek: Apple's First Mac OS on Intel Projectfrom Low End Mac Star Trek: Apple's First Mac OS on Intel Project Low End Mac Reader Specials *Memory To Go Special:*MacPro Memory With Apple Spec Heat Sink 2GB kit $282, 4GB Kit $576. MacBookPro / MacMini / iMac IntelCore DDR2-667 SODIMM 1GB $84, 2GB $344. G5 Dual/Quad Core DDR2 PC4200 1GB Kit $88, 2GB Kit $172. PowerBook G4 DDR2/4200 SODIMM 1GB $84. G5/iMac/MacMini DDR/ PC3200 1GB $82. PowerBook/iBook 1GB. SODIMM PC2700 $110. Flash Cards & Hard Drives AVAILABLE. * Download Typestyler,*still the Ultimate Styling Tool for Internet, Print and Video Graphics. Works great in Classic with a Native OS X Version on the way. Free Tryout: www.typestyler.com *LA Computer Company: * Specials on iMac's, MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iPod accessories, and AppleCare. Apple Original Airport Cards in stock. iPod batteries starting at $8. Call 1-800-941-7654 or Click Here. *NewerTech:*Longer Jam Time & New Life for your Apple iPod! Nupower iPod Batteries offer up to 114% more battery capacity than original stock. User Installable, Online Videos show how - or OWC will install. Get that iPod Chargin from $19.99. Mac users can finally play Party Poker for Mac. Not only that, they can also learn how to play PokerStars for Mac . *Laptops *, Games and PC Games, iPod, Digital Camera, Computer, PDA, Software, LCD TV, Mobile Phone, anything you are searching for can be found here at the shopping and price comparison portal Ciao Tom Hormby - 2005.06.13 The first Apple proposal to move the Macintosh to Intel hardware did not begin with Mac OS X. It began in 1985, shortly after Steve Jobs' departure from Apple. The project was quickly nixed by Apple's management, but it would be revived several years later in a joint effort by Novell and Apple to port the Mac OS to the x86 processor. Microsoft released Windows 3.1 in 1992, and it quickly became the best selling program in the industry. Both Novell and Apple were threatened by the new operating system. Novell feared that the new version of Windows (and especially the pending release of Windows NT) would interfere with its NetWare product, which held a near monopoly in PC networks. [image: Intel 486 SX]Apple was equally threatened. Windows was not as easy to use, but Windows PCs cost less than Macs, and Windows could run standard DOS apps without add-on cards or emulation. Novell began work modernizing Digital Research's GEM, best known as the graphical environment used on the Atari ST, and turning it into a competitor to Windows. The legal department at Novell got the jitters over the project and had it canceled, fearing that an enhanced GEM would attract a lawsuit from Apple. [image: Star Trek's Enterprise]Darrell Miller, then Vice President of marketing at Novell, made a proposal to Apple CEO John Sculley about porting the Mac OS to Intel hardware. Sculley was thrilled by the offer - he wanted Apple to move away from the expensive hardware business and turn it into a software provider. [image: Intel's Andy Grove]The project to bring the Mac OS to the Intel 486 began on Valentine's Day in 1992 and was named "Star Trek". The project was blessed by Intel's CEO Andy Grove, who feared Microsoft's power in the PC market. Apple's leadership gave a deadline of October 31 (Halloween) for creating a working prototype of Star Trek. The group set to work porting the Mac OS to Intel processors. The task was a tedious one. Much of the software was written in assembly code to make the computer faster and use less disk space. All of this code had to be totally rewritten for the 486. Other parts of the operating system were easier - most of the interface elements had been written in Pascal and only required a few modifications. There were several other technical hurdles to overcome in porting the Mac OS to Intel processors. The software relied heavily on the ROMs in Macs, which stored much of the operating system and dictated how many GUI features behaved. It would be too expensive to create new ROMs for PC users, so the group implemented the ROMs in software, loading them during startup. (This feature would not be incorporated into Macs until 1998 with the introduction of the iMac .) The group missed their deadline by a month and had a functional demo ready by December 1, 1992. Apple executives were amazed to see the Finder run on an ordinary PC. The engineers did more than that - QuickDraw GX and QuickTime were also ported to the x86. With the first goal of the project completed, the engineers took a vacation in Mexico, and the management at Apple and Novell began to decide how to complete the project. [image: It's True]Unfortunately, John Sculley's reign at Apple came to an end in the middle of the Star Trek project. The new CEO, Michael Spindler, had little interest in porting the Mac OS to the x86 and devoted most of Apple's resources to preparing System 7 for the PowerPC. The Star Trek project was canceled, and the Mac OS would not run natively on Intel until after Apple acquired NeXT in 1996, which already had an x86-base operating system, NeXTstep. In June 2005, Steve Jobs announced that Apple had been concurrently developing OS X on Intel and PowerPC processors for five years - and that future Macs would be based on Intel processors and future versions of Mac OS X would run on Apple's forthcoming Intel-based hardware. [image: L E M] From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 10 00:31:19 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 01:31:19 -0400 Subject: Data General CEO files... In-Reply-To: <461B1B7F.4030202@oldskool.org> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> <461B1B7F.4030202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <461B2127.2030507@atarimuseum.com> Anyone know of any PC platform based util to import/convert DG CEO files to make them readable on a PC??? Portions of the CEO files are clear text and some even have partial formatting, but the majority (about 80%) is what I assume is formatting codes and unformatted text. Thanks, Curt From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 01:50:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 02:50:17 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> Andy Piercy wrote: > Alison, thanks for the info, I'll have a go at opening one of the > driver, as > currently they are only as much use as a large paper weight! > > Sridhar, > > A clean box sounda a good idea, could you provide some detaile please? Andy, Basically, the purpose of the clean box is to ensure that the air you're working in is clean. The box should be made from something that won't turn readily into dust, for example, it should *not* be made of cardboard. Plastic works best. Also, the box should have at least one clear side. I used perspex for the sides and top and thick rigid PVC for the base. It's important for you to be able to see what you're working on. Third, it's important to get the box sealed up well, so use plenty of thick silicone sealant along the corners. And make real sure that the silicone is completely and thoroughly dry and set up before you use the clean box. It also couldn't hurt to join the corners on a miter. In mine, I use a false bottom that holds together with some bolts to make it easier to open and close the box, so I can get tools and items to be repaired in and out of the box. Fourth, it's a good idea to use an inert gas supply. For reasons of availability and price, the best choice might be nitrogen. Bottled nitrogen won't be completely clean, so an air filter is probably a good idea. Don't use a paper one, obviously. I use a glass allergen filter. And the gas should go through a regulator. If it comes out too quickly, it could get supercooled, and that would not be fun. And don't forget to create a gas outlet with a one-way valve, to prevent outside air from getting in. If you don't put in an outlet, the gas will find its own outlet, and that won't be good. Obviously, it isn't possible to work in a completely sealed cube. You also need a place to put your hands into the box to actually *do* the work. The most reasonable method for doing this is to attach a pair of gloves to the box itself. Again, getting a good seal between the box and the glove is of paramount importance. Use a sealant material which has enough flexibility to do the job. Also, it would be a good idea to have a way of changing the gloves without tearing the box apart. I mounted my gloves to the box on opposite ends of the box so that I can get my hands to anywhere in the box. One thing I didn't think of until after I had built the box is that the positive pressure inside the box doesn't have to be very high, so you don't have to use gloves that are very rigid. I used pipefitters' gloves the first time, and I lost a lot of fine control. I suggest using something much thinner. Experiment! It's the easiest way to figure this stuff out. And let me know how it goes. I'd be interested to know. Good luck. Peace... Sridhar >> > So anyway sorry to ramble, After you opened the drive, did you have any >> > problems with dust and head crashes? Do you think that it would be >> possible >> > to fabricate one of these bumpers? Do you have any pictures of this >> bumper >> > within the drive? >> >> You could always make a cleanbox to do the work in. It isn't difficult. >> There are plans available online, but if you have trouble finding >> them, I'd be willing to describe how I did it. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 10 01:51:05 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 02:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200704100652.CAA20688@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members use on > their classic iron? Well, since you asked, I run NetBSD on everything. (If it won't run NetBSD, I mostly am not interested in keeping it. There are a few exceptions, but not many.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 10 01:58:45 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 02:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200704100659.CAA20748@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Your only serious consideration is netBSD, as you've found out. > Linux's roots were x86 so it hasn't been ported to nearly as many > platforms. NetBSD's roots were in x86 too; it's just put a lot more work into curing that. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 03:24:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:24:45 -0500 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461B49CD.2060503@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Apr 2007 at 0:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> I've got the first stage of my floppy disc reader working! Meaning, the >> data separator and synchroniser works - I have a circuit that outputs a pulse >> whenever the MFM 'magic sync sequence' (0x4489) is detected. In theory, I can >> use that to sync the reader against sector boundaries on IBM-format discs, or >> track boundaries on Amiga discs. > > Philip, it sounds like an interesting project. However, I've got an > itch in my brain that I can't seem to scratch. If you're doing bit > transition timings, why even bother to have an AM detector or data > separator? You can do all of that in software. Are you restricting > your design to MFM and FM encodings? I suspect it's just to read disks that don't start the track at the index pulse (I'd wondered the same thing until his post about Amiga floppies). Stitching bits of track buffer together is quite possibly impractical due to slight fluctuations in drive RPM and hardware delays when an index pulse is detected. I suspect the only way to reliably read such disks is to either do the "start of track" detection in hardware, or to sample the track from the first index pulse up to the third index pulse and decode in software. It's an interesting problem, and not one I'd given any thought to: I'd made the assumption that start-of-data was always going to follow some sort of hardware-supplied pulse (either index alone or index + sector in the case of hard-sectored disks) cheers Jules From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 03:32:20 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:32:20 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704100344.l3A3iYUM011232@floodgap.com> References: <20070410021149.12050.qmail@seefried.com> <200704100344.l3A3iYUM011232@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070410083220.GE16721@darwin.ugr.es> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 08:44:34PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The 2.x and 3.x releases have bloated to obscene proportions, like needing > > more than 8M of memory (;^}). > > And people wonder why the Macs here are "stuck" at 1.6.*. But, is that a good solution? I mean, 1.x isn't supported any longer, isn't it? I like running small footprint, lean Unix systems (even on modern hardware). But everything, including NetBSD seems to be going to the bloating. Minix seems to go the same way, also; mainly if you want to run X, since it needs something as obscene as 256MB RAM atm. Does somebody know of a modern Unix system which truly focuses on resources consumption, which is lean and fast? Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 10 03:38:41 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:38:41 +0100 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Philip, it sounds like an interesting project. However, I've got an > itch in my brain that I can't seem to scratch. If you're doing bit > transition timings, why even bother to have an AM detector or data > separator? You can do all of that in software. Are you restricting > your design to MFM and FM encodings? Oh, no, not at all. The reason I added the data separator and sync detector was primarily because of Amiga format floppies. The track starts with a pair of $4489 sync words, and isn't synchronised to the index pulse. It just makes it easier to decode the data - if you know where the sync word is, you know where the SOT is, so you know where to start decoding data, which bits are data and which bits contain clocking information. If the disc doesn't use the $4489 sync word, you start reading at the leading edge of the index pulse, run one revolution, then stop reading at the second trailing edge. That leaves you with a RAM full of undecoded MFM data, that you can sync against manually. The sync detector lets you skip the synchronisation stage for discs written as an entire track - just take every second stored bit as a data bit. I'm quite tempted to make the sync word configurable, so you could sync on any 8-bit MFM sequence you liked. I know there's at least one other 'missing clock' sync word in common use (IIRC it's 0xC1 with a missing clock in the second nibble). The other 'interesting' bit is going to be handling read/write for hard-sectored discs. Reading shouldn't be too hard - AIUI, you'd wait for an index pulse, start reading, then wait for N+1 index pulses (where N=number of sectors -- n+1 provides one sector of overlap) and stop. Storing the index pulse state in the MSbit of the counter value byte would let you seek for a sector. The index pulse would need to write the current count to RAM and zero the counter every time an index was detected, otherwise writing the data back would be pretty difficult (the index->sector data timing skew would require correction). Writing back would involve a bit of 'fun' involving a primitive state machine. Probably something along the lines of checking to see if the MSbit was a 1, and waiting for an index pulse before sending the pulse and decrementing the counter. I can foresee all this circuitry filling two or three separate CPLDs... BTW, Chuck, thanks for posting the floppy drive pinout - it was very helpful. Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cc at corti-net.de Tue Apr 10 03:43:30 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:43:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration In-Reply-To: <29800109.1176124216945.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29800109.1176124216945.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Ashley Carder wrote: > I will remove the M9312 from the RK11 and replace it with a BC11-A > Unibus cable, which will connect to the Unibus-In slot on the TC11. In > the Unibus Out slot of the TC11, I will place the M9312 bootstrap > terminator card. The TC11 will be connected to the TU56 with the M908 > and W032 cables. > > Is this the correct way to add the TC11 to my current setup and properly > terminate the Unibus by moving the M9312 to the TC11? Yes, that's the correct way, although I have the M9312 in the CPU box (11/34) and a M9302 as the "outside" bus terminator. > Does anyone else out there have a working TC11/TU56 on a PDP-11? I am > aware of numerous working TU56 / PDP-8 systems, but don't know of anyone > who has a TU56 working on a PDP-11. I know people who have them sitting > in a rack for "show and tell", but not connected and running. Well, we have a 11/34 with TM11/TU10,RK11D/RK05,RL01,RL02,RA80,PC11/PC05 and since at least two years TC11/TU56, everything is in working condition. > I also have a TU55 (single unit) DecTape drive. Are the TU55 drives > compatible with the TC11? Can a TU55 drive be added to the above > configuration and be configured as a 3rd DecTape drive? Or are the TU55 > drives not compatible with the TC11? I have skimmed the TC11 manuals > and did not see mention of the older TU55 drives. I don't know, do you really mean TU55 (the old DECtape)? I ask because there was a single drive TU56 called TU56H (H for "half"). Christian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 10 03:42:58 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 04:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410083220.GE16721@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070410021149.12050.qmail@seefried.com> <200704100344.l3A3iYUM011232@floodgap.com> <20070410083220.GE16721@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <200704100847.EAA21561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But everything, including NetBSD seems to be going to the bloating. This is actually true only if you expect to compile stuff on it, or use recently-added features (the former because current's gcc is a pig). Stick to features in 4.4 and don't compile stuff and you can run remarkably lean. > Does somebody know of a modern Unix system which truly focuses on > resources consumption, which is lean and fast? I'd like to hear if you find one. Especially, I'd like to hear about an open-source C compiler that (a) supports at least sparc, i386, mips, and arm - those being the CPUs I care about at the moment - and (b) is not a resource pig. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 03:44:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:44:22 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46191582.5942.3F8C860F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4619F68F.4070606@yahoo.co.uk> <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461B4E66.7010401@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: [catweasel] >> Hmm, that's interesting. Does it store fixed length counts in the buffer, or >> does it use variable-length counts with a couple of bits of "header" to say >> how many bits the count takes up? > > Each count takes up 7 bits of an 8-bit byte. The high-order bit > records the presence of an index pulse (essential for decoding hard- > sectored formats). He gets around the fixed-width issue by having > several (3, IIRC) programmable clock speeds. As I said, brutally > simple. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of recording timings between pulses, rather than oversampling the entire track - the former seems the only way of recording exactly what's coming off the disk. I think I'm still aiming for a sampled approach at first, but I can see a project that records transition times waiting in the wings. I need to run some calculations to see what values I get for both the shortest time between flux transitions (according to bit density of the media) and the longest time (assuming slowest floppy rotational speed and track with just a single bit on it). If the numbers work out, then I wonder if an improved format would be to have variable-length counts: say three bits of "header", with the first bit recording presence/absence of index pulse (vital, as you say), then two bits which state how many bits make up the count value. That gives four possible lengths of count which could be encoded.... From there I can figure out the maximum buffer memory needed. gut feeling is that it should all fit within 512KB though, given the CW's 128KB and three clock speeds. Use of three different clocks as with the CW bugs me. I think I want the data that comes out of the device to reflect exactly what's coming out of the drive interface, no questions asked - and no need to check and tweak any parameters without resampling. > GCR can be very challenging. You have an idea of the way it works > and what the "prohibited" bit combinations probably are, but you > still don't have your mappings. I've taken several tracks and, based > on a suspicion that each sector probably contained some sort of > header information that included a cylinder number, have worked from > that. Where are you typically finding such formats - other than the well-known machines that used GCR? Is it more common in some of the factory process control stuff etc. that you look at, rather than home/business systems? > Eventually, there will be an "Aha!" that usually comes sometime around > bedtime. :-) I usually get mine when waking up - and if I don't scribble them down somewhere immediately then they're gone by the time of the first coffee :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 03:49:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:49:14 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk> <461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461B4F8A.9050107@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'd love to try my idea out, but I don't have any Amiga floppies to play > with, nor do I have an Amiga to create them... Hmm, that was some really useful text there (enough to make me jumpy about doing a pure oversampled buffer design based solely on index pulses!) I should have a spare A500 here (and I've certainly got floppies) - there's an A500 with an A590 in the back of the car that I picked up, which if it all works will mean that my current A500 is going spare. Getting it all to you might be a challenge, though! cheers Jules From cc at corti-net.de Tue Apr 10 03:54:21 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:54:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Buzzing 861C - anyone ever open one up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > A fault on the cotnrol buard is unlikely to cause buxxing. The control > elemenets, the reed relay and the contactor, are too slow to repsond at > 60Hz. So even if there's ripple on the cotnrol board supply, it doesn't > normally cause the thing to buzz. Oh yes, it does! (personal experience, the filter cap on the control board had no capacity) Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 04:09:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 04:09:38 -0500 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461B5452.2050900@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm quite tempted to make the sync word configurable, so you could sync > on any 8-bit MFM sequence you liked. I know there's at least one other > 'missing clock' sync word in common use (IIRC it's 0xC1 with a missing > clock in the second nibble). That seems sensible - along with the option of no sync word at all (in which case you count index pulses and stop after n counts - where n is also configurable) > The other 'interesting' bit is going to be handling read/write for > hard-sectored discs. Reading shouldn't be too hard - AIUI, you'd wait > for an index pulse, start reading, then wait for N+1 index pulses (where > N=number of sectors -- n+1 provides one sector of overlap) and stop. Yep - the only gotcha is that the sector pulses and index pulse is on the same line, but the index pulse has different timing to the sector pulses to allow differentiation. > Writing back would involve a bit of 'fun' I'd thought the same thing. I wasn't even going to think about it at this stage to be honest - my primary goal is to allow archiving of data onto modern media (and interpretation of that data); being able to recreate the original on magnetic media is more of a secondary task. I think I'd mentioned this privately to Chuck the other week, but I'm not sure if "playing back" raw data to a drive will even work, given that there will be slight differences in drive RPM between drives: a track buffered on a "slow" drive would run past the end of track on a "fast" drive by a few bits. It makes me wonder if the only way to do a 100% reliable write is to interpret the data that you're writing, lay down a format (which is guaranteed not to overflow available space), then lay down the actual data. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 04:42:10 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:42:10 +0100 Subject: DEC/VG Datasystem/System Industries/Western Dynex In-Reply-To: <000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000501c77954$edd3e850$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <11c909eb0704100242t581f8bc1o8db84b1b2cc82570@mail.gmail.com> On 07/04/07, Jay West wrote: > > I may be interested in the dynex drives if they could > be used on my Microdata. If no one takes the rack I may see if he'll sell > me > just the condor fan. I'm curious if anyone knows about VG datasystem 2000 > or > System Industries. > > Jay West > > > > VG ( Formerly Vacuum Generators) had a number of identities, I worked briefly for VG Analytical in Manchester, UK in 1989. AFAIK all the VG companies manufactured lab instruments eg mass spectrometers, HPLC. All the kit I worked with had either PDP8, PDP11 or VS2000 attached to them for control and data logging. Happy days toggling in the PDP8 bootstrap when the hacked up version of OS8 fell over :) I'm pretty sure VG vanished in the 90's when they were bought by Fisons. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 04:42:20 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:42:20 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704100847.EAA21561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070410083220.GE16721@darwin.ugr.es> <200704100847.EAA21561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070410094220.GF16721@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 04:42:58AM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > This is actually true only if you expect to compile stuff on it, or use > recently-added features (the former because current's gcc is a pig). > Stick to features in 4.4 and don't compile stuff and you can run > remarkably lean. Well, as long as I get binary packages for Vim, screen, Ion3 and, of course, ssh, I don't need to do any compilations on most of my boxes. > Especially, I'd like to hear about an open-source C compiler that (a) > supports at least sparc, i386, mips, and arm - those being the CPUs I > care about at the moment - and (b) is not a resource pig. The uClibc libraries focus on embeded systems, isn't there a C compiler which does the same, maybe? Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From davis at saw.net Tue Apr 10 01:47:36 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 23:47:36 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070409235816.29A98BA439C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20070409235816.29A98BA439C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <461B3308.1000500@saw.net> Tim Shoppa wrote: >"Ensor" wrote: > > >>I've recently been looking at setting up an old HP Vectra P-90 to run Linux >>(or some form of *nix) and started wondering what ports exist for "classic" >>systems. >> >>Looking around I see that "NetBSD" in particular supports quite a few >>architectures including VAX, SGI, NeXT etc etc, but I've struck out >>regarding Linux ports. >> >>So, can anyone point me at a website listing Linux ports to architectures >>other than PC's. >> >> > >bash-3.00$ cd /usr/src >bash-3.00$ ls >linux-2.6.17.4 linux-2.6.17.4.tar.bz2 >bash-3.00$ cd linux-2.6.17.4 >bash-3.00$ ls >COPYING MAINTAINERS arch fs kernel scripts >CREDITS Makefile block include lib security >Documentation README crypto init mm sound >Kbuild REPORTING-BUGS drivers ipc net usr >bash-3.00$ cd arch >bash-3.00$ ls >alpha cris i386 m68k parisc s390 sparc v850 >arm frv ia64 m68knommu powerpc sh sparc64 x86_64 >arm26 h8300 m32r mips ppc sh64 um xtensa > > > >>And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members >>use on their classic iron? >> >> > >FBOFW, modern "free" *nix ports tend to use gcc, and gcc is such >a resource hog for anything smaller than a VAX. Even on a VAX it's >colossaly slow. > >Not on a VAX, but small and spritely, is Minix. The Amsterdam >Compiler Kit wasn't free, though! The thought of a Unix without >a compiler is not very well accepted in hackerdom (or, at least by >me), even though I despise C compared to high level languages like >SNOBOL and FOCAL. > >Tim. > > > Hi Tim, The old distros e.g: slackware with gcc (which is OT) from the mid 90's worked great on systems as small as 1 MB. Just don't expect to run X or any of that other candy in one meg. You needed 4 meg to get it up. Jim. (remembering when one meg was HUGE.) From davis at saw.net Tue Apr 10 01:57:04 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 23:57:04 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <461B3540.9040006@saw.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Ensor wrote: > >> I was more concerned with running it on a VAX/SGI/Sun/NeXT box > > > Your only serious consideration is netBSD, as you've found out. > Linux's roots were x86 so it hasn't been ported to nearly as many > platforms. > > For low-resource x86 computing, you can run Minix on an 808x, and > several variants of AT&T or SCO on 286, and there's an older version > of Coherent that runs on 286 (3.x and earlier). I'm biased toward > Coherent of course... Jim, I evaluated and still have an original set of Coherent disks and manuals with the DDK. I never used for it anything real because of it's 64K limitation. Cute system though, a lot like Minix. Did you work for Mark Williams? Jim Davis. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Apr 10 02:21:50 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:21:50 +0100 Subject: Insanely stupid! In-Reply-To: <419458.12683.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <419458.12683.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1176189710.6030.21.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-04-09 at 16:04 -0700, Chris M wrote: Could we have that in English, please? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Apr 10 02:40:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:40:29 +0100 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <20070406234151.9ED2EBA4350@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <46155630.3010800@gmail.com> <20070406234151.9ED2EBA4350@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <1176190829.6030.23.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-04-06 at 19:41 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Christian Corti wrote: > > You may be thinking of a HP7905 or DEC RA80, now these are different > > beasts... (we had the RA80 pushed into a shelf at about 2,0m high, and > > also pulled it out again when we had to move to our new building four > > years ago, and we were only two) > > The trick with RA80's (and Fuji Eagles, and other late 10.5"/14" > Winchesters) is to pull the HDA from the box, mount the box in > the rack, and THEN put the HDA in the box. > > Eagles and RA8x's are remarkably modular. You can also reasonably > pull the power supply from the Eagle frame for even less weight > (with the HDA and the PS out, it's mostly sheet metal and some > framing...) Now you tell me, *after* I've carried one out to the van. They're not light, these Fujitsu Eagles... Gordon From cc at corti-net.de Tue Apr 10 05:12:22 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:12:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The data separator is an Verilog HDL reimplementation of the data separator > used in Petr Simandl's Sinclair Spectrum +2A floppy disc controller > (, but there's a > better quality schematic at > ). I'm driving the whole > thing off a 32MHz TTL oscillator, divided down to 16MHz for 3.5" DSHD, and > 8MHz for 3.5" DSDD. I haven't tried FM encoded data yet, though I have no > reason to suspect it won't work, as long as I can figure out what the clock > divider needs to be set to. Stupid question: where is the PLL? Is this a digital PLL built around the SN74188? Isn't that only the data separator, i.e. detection of data windows, which is then MFM only? This design looks a bit too primitive... > [...]/hpla-fdd-reader-syncing-against-720k-floppy-zoomed-long.png Hmm, /RDDAT, DWIN and DATA don't look right to me. You seem to generate DATA bits during clock time. Is /RDDAT coming from the floppy and is DATA going to the FDC? /RDDAT shows the bit pattern 10100001, i.e. $A1. But the address mark for MFM consists of four bytes ($A1A1A1xx), and the address mark bytes have clock bits 2, 3 and 4 removed, your data stream seems only to have bit 3 removed. But it's possible that I just don't fully understand this design. Christian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 10 06:04:55 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:04:55 +0100 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B5452.2050900@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> <461B5452.2050900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461B6F57.7000300@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > That seems sensible - along with the option of no sync word at all (in > which case you count index pulses and stop after n counts - where n is > also configurable) So the current must/should/nice-to-have list goes something like: MUST HAVE --------- Reading of soft-sector discs, unsynchronised, sync'd to index mark, or sync'd to MFM SYNC words READ SOFT TRACK UNSYNC, READ SOFT TRACK INDEXED, READ SOFT TRACK MFMSYNC Reading of hard-sector discs, sync'd to index marks+track mark READ HARD TRACK, READ HARD SECTOR operations Support for multiple drive interfaces: Shugart SA400/800 style (8") Tandon TM100 style (5.25") PC 3.5" Support for multiple bit rates: 125kbit/sec 250kbit/sec 720KB 3.5" 360KB 5.25" 300kbit/sec 500kbit/sec 1.44MB 3.5" 1.2MB 5.25" 1Mbit/sec 2.88MB 3.5" SHOULD HAVE ----------- Writing of soft-sector discs, unsynchronised or sync'd to index mark WRITE SOFT TRACK UNSYNC, WRITE SOFT TRACK INDEXED Writing of hard-sector discs, sync'd to index marks+track mark WRITE HARD TRACK, WRITE HARD SECTOR operations NICE TO HAVE ------------ Programmable MFM SYNC word -- 16-bit register "Stop after N index counts" mode with configurable N value Support for MFM pre-decoding Any additions or comments? > Yep - the only gotcha is that the sector pulses and index pulse is on > the same line, but the index pulse has different timing to the sector > pulses to allow differentiation. Problem is, I don't have any hard-sector discs, 99% of the problems with this project are probably going to boil down to odd disc format and drive availability - all I've got is a 40/80 switchable Viglen drive for the BBC, a 1.2MB 5.25" and a couple of DS-HD 3.5" drives. Oh, and maybe an IBM 2.88MB somewhere too, but with an odd interface connector. > I'd thought the same thing. I wasn't even going to think about it at > this stage to be honest - my primary goal is to allow archiving of data > onto modern media (and interpretation of that data); being able to > recreate the original on magnetic media is more of a secondary task. That's my primary goal too - archiving and analysis. Building something with similar capabilities to a Trace disc duplicator would be kinda cool though. > I think I'd mentioned this privately to Chuck the other week, but I'm > not sure if "playing back" raw data to a drive will even work, given > that there will be slight differences in drive RPM between drives: a > track buffered on a "slow" drive would run past the end of track on a > "fast" drive by a few bits. Well, as far as I can tell, the speed variation across drives is about 10% absolute max. The TEAC FD-05HF-8630 is specified to have no more than 1.5% long-term speed variation (LSV), and less than 3% instantaneous speed variation (ISV). The Samsung (SEMA) SFD321B is specced at 1.5% ISV and 1.5% LSV. Formatting systems take this variation into account anyway - IIRC the IBM format doesn't use all the (theoretically) usable 200ms zone between the index pulses. There's probably a good few tens of milliseconds gap between the end of the track and the next index pulse. My data on the IBM format is a bit sketchy though - can anyone confirm this? In any case, if what I've said is true, all you really need to do is activate /WRITE_GATE with /WR DATA high to erase the data on the track, then write the data you want on the second pass. That'll ensure that the data you've written is synchronised properly, and the controller won't be able to see any of the older data because it's all been zeroed out before the actual track was written. > It makes me wonder if the only way to do a > 100% reliable write is to interpret the data that you're writing, lay > down a format (which is guaranteed not to overflow available space), > then lay down the actual data. It might be worth taking a look at Tim Mann's CW2DMK and DMK2CW tools - they read an IBM MFM-format floppy and convert it to a DMK image, and can then write it back to disc using the Catweasel controller. It's certainly possible to make a near-exact copy of a disc. At the moment, I'm going to try and do as much as possible with the discs and drives I've got - thankfully the IBM format uses the same MFM syncword as Amiga floppies, but in a different way, so I can confirm that my sync detector and data separator works. Now I need to do the disc read/write stuff, then the host interface and software. After that? I start begging for floppies in unusual formats, and drives that can read them :) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From hamren at sdu.se Tue Apr 10 06:11:21 2007 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:11:21 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <200704100104.l3A139Nk090038@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704100104.l3A139Nk090038@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17947.28889.373211.533463@localhost.localdomain> Hello, Kevin I plan to travel to England by car, arriving next friday, April 21, and to visit BP that weekend, to pick up the Teletype. You have an Alpha-16, that you indicated I would be able to borrow. Would you consider donating it? If not, is borrowing still OK? Will it be possible to go through your storage areas, to see what other CA equipment you may have? Last time we were unable to do that, because you did not have the key. I have not yet made definite plans for the weekend. Will both days be convenient, or is one of the days out of the question? Kind regards /Lars Hamr?n ------------------------------------------------------------------- Lars Hamr?n Tel...: +46( 46)189090 Svensk Datorutveckling Mobile: +46(705)189090 Vadm?llan 211 e-mail: hamren at sdu.se S-225 94 Lund WWW...: www.sdu.se Sweden From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 10 06:19:28 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:19:28 +0100 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461B72C0.80204@philpem.me.uk> Christian Corti wrote: > Stupid question: where is the PLL? Is this a digital PLL built around > the SN74188? Isn't that only the data separator, i.e. detection of data > windows, which is then MFM only? This design looks a bit too primitive... It's a state machine. >> [...]/hpla-fdd-reader-syncing-against-720k-floppy-zoomed-long.png > > Hmm, /RDDAT, DWIN and DATA don't look right to me. You seem to generate > DATA bits during clock time. Is /RDDAT coming from the floppy and is > DATA going to the FDC? /RDDAT is the data the floppy drive fed out. DATA is the bitstream after the data separator has cleaned it up (it sometimes double-clocks, but that doesn't seem to matter). DWIN is the Data Window. When it transitions from high-to-low or low-to-high, a new data or clock cell starts. If there's a transition on DATA during the cell, then the bit is a 1, else it's a 0. Clock and data bits are mixed together, but based on the SYNC state, you can figure out what phase of DWIN signifies a data bit. > /RDDAT shows the bit pattern 10100001, i.e. $A1. But the address mark > for MFM consists of four bytes ($A1A1A1xx), and the address mark bytes > have clock bits 2, 3 and 4 removed, your data stream seems only to have > bit 3 removed. Um, no. The MFM sync word does decode as 0xA1, but it has a missing clock bit in the lower nibble - it's encoded as: 01 00 01 00 10 00 10 01 ^ missing clock Which is invalid MFM data, but still maintains the (1,3) RLL property, so the drive and data separator aren't confused by it. Take into account that you're looking at a waveform with the SYNC output skewed by one DWIN transition. The first '0' is missing from that trace. DWIN changes state just before the X marker, clocking in a 0. Then DWIN transitions again, and because there was a transition on DATA in that bit cell, a 1 is clocked into the shift register. So now SR = xxxx xxxx xxxx xx01 Skip ahead to the next DATA pulse - DWIN has changed state three times, clocking in three zeroes. So SR = xxxx xxxx xx01 000. Then DWIN changes state again, and because of the DATA pulse, a 1 is clocked in. Now SR = xxxx xxxx xx01 0001. Now skip ahead to the DWIN=1 before the second sync pulse. Now SR = x010 0010 0100 0100 DWIN changes state again, clocking the 1 into the shift register. Now SR = 0100 0100 1000 1001 SR is equal to the sync word, so the SYNC output goes high. In the 'early' version, this was a registered output timed against DWIN, so it lagged by one DWIN transition. In the new version, it's a combinatorial output (a straight compare). Does that make it any clearer? Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 06:42:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:42:58 -0500 Subject: The voodoo of SCSI... Message-ID: <461B7842.8010403@yahoo.co.uk> Ok, here's a nice one... I've got a SCSI drive that was working fine in a test system the other day. I came to plug it in to a system today via a known-working external SCSI box, and when I hit the power the drive didn't spin up and sat there with the LED constantly on. "Uh oh" I thought. So I turned off the power, unplugged the drive cable, and turned power on again - the drive span up fine. That's a bit worrying, I figure, so I plug the drive cable back in, but unplug it at the system end: I figure some fault with the system's SCSI bus is upsetting the drive. Turn on the power to the cabinet and... constant LED, no drive fault. Must be the cabinet's terminator, right? Wrong - with the power applied and the cable plugged in, but no terminator, I still get the constant LED and no spin-up. With just power applied and no terminator or cable, the drive spins up fine. So... that's just a cable fault left - must be a short between a couple of pins (however unlikely this seems). Wrong again - try a different known-good cable, and the behaviour's the same: no spin up with a cable plugged in. After a bit of experimenting, the drive will spin up fine with either no cable or a cable of a few inches plugged into it. With a cable of a foot (or more), it refuses to spin up and just sits there with the LED on permanently. Remember there's nothing funky at the other end of these cables - they're just stock 50-way IDC cable with 50-pin IDC connectors at either end. The fault is consistently reproducible - drive orientation makes no difference, power to the drive is good, cable-waggling has no effect. If I turn on power with a cable plugged in, *then* unplug it, the drive will suddenly spin up. So... huh!? It's as though something's gone bad on the drive and it's using the SCSI cable like and antenna and picking up interference which is confusing the heck out of it. But then why it does the same when it *does* have something at the other end of the cable, I don't know. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 06:53:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:53:13 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <17947.28889.373211.533463@localhost.localdomain> References: <200704100104.l3A139Nk090038@dewey.classiccmp.org> <17947.28889.373211.533463@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <461B7AA9.9060702@yahoo.co.uk> Lars Hamren wrote: > Hello, Kevin I suspect you meant that to go to Kevin at BP, not the list ;-) Have forwarded it on to him. > I plan to travel to England by car, arriving next friday, April 21, Aside: I've fallen foul of that one in the US before. "next Friday" in the UK is often taken to mean the next Friday that happens - i.e. the one in the current week. In the rest of the world it seems to always be the Friday of the week *after* the next Friday that'll happen :-) cheers Jules From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 07:17:49 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:17:49 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: <461AD78C.8040101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> <461AD78C.8040101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5BD9C057-559C-43F9-8B68-A76E5A817FA8@xlisper.com> > RD53s are notoriously unreliable, but I'm surprised that four out > of five simply aren't detected. Are they genuine DEC RD53s? You > need to add a PCB link to an ordinary Micropolis 1325 or 1335 drive > to make it an RD53. Look on the PCB for the location marked R7 > (remove two screws and carefully hinge it up) -- if there's nothing > there, solder a link in that position. Oh, and don't use a skid > plate with bare metal with an RD53, as it can short things out. Three of the four failing drives were official DEC RD53 drives as indicated by a sticker on the top. Interestingly, when Iooked at R7 on the PCB, two of them had the resistor present but one end had been cut. I soldered it back together but both drives still fail. At least one of the drives spins up but then back down again. I'm reluctant to try swapping the PCB between my only working drive and one of the bad ones so I think I'll just count them as a loss. From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Apr 10 07:27:39 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:27:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration Message-ID: <28038217.1176208059444.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Is this the correct way to add the TC11 to my current setup and properly >> terminate the Unibus by moving the M9312 to the TC11? > >Yes, that's the correct way, although I have the M9312 in the CPU box >(11/34) and a M9302 as the "outside" bus terminator. I think I'll try to get my TC11, TU56, and H720 mounted in the rack tonight, move the M9312, fire it up, and see what happens. It would be nice to see those little DecTapes spinning based on the commands I am typing on a terminal! >Well, we have a 11/34 with TM11/TU10,RK11D/RK05,RL01,RL02,RA80,PC11/PC05 >and since at least two years TC11/TU56, everything is in working >condition. I might be checking with you again later. I also have a TU10 and a PC05 that I want to hook up to my system. The TU10 needs to be reassembled (it was dismantled when it was shipped), and the PC05 needs a good cleaning. >> I also have a TU55 (single unit) DecTape drive. Are the TU55 drives >> compatible with the TC11? Can a TU55 drive be added to the above >> configuration and be configured as a 3rd DecTape drive? Or are the TU55 >> drives not compatible with the TC11? I have skimmed the TC11 manuals >> and did not see mention of the older TU55 drives. > >I don't know, do you really mean TU55 (the old DECtape)? I ask because >there was a single drive TU56 called TU56H (H for "half"). This is an actual TU55 that I'm referring to, not the single drive version of the TU56. Ashley From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 10 07:41:30 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:41:30 +0200 Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration In-Reply-To: <28038217.1176208059444.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848837F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Ashley wrote: > I think I'll try to get my TC11, TU56, and H720 mounted in > the rack tonight, move the M9312, fire it up, and see what > happens. It would be nice to see those little DecTapes > spinning based on the commands I am typing on a terminal! I still want to get my TC11-TU56 online, but my 11/84 is giving problems with the RL02 drives. Need to fix that first. Is the H720 the power supply inside the TU56 chassis? ISTR that you need an external power supply, +5 or +15 comes to mind, and there are two voltages possible, but only one must be connected ... I could be totally wrong. The first thing I must do is a check if all FlipChips in the TC11 are at their correct position, and if all are present...! Following this thread with argus eyes :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 10 07:45:54 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:45:54 +0100 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: <5BD9C057-559C-43F9-8B68-A76E5A817FA8@xlisper.com> References: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> <461AD78C.8040101@dunnington.plus.com> <5BD9C057-559C-43F9-8B68-A76E5A817FA8@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <461B8702.5070404@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/04/2007 13:17, David Betz wrote: > Three of the four failing drives were official DEC RD53 drives as > indicated by a sticker on the top. Interestingly, when Iooked at R7 on > the PCB, two of them had the resistor present but one end had been cut. They've probably been cut in order to use the drives on a PC. > I soldered it back together but both drives still fail. At least one of > the drives spins up but then back down again. That can happen if the heads are stuck against the end stop inside the drive. There's a rubber bumper that goes sticky. Alison posted more information about that just a few days ago. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Apr 10 07:47:48 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 07:47:48 -0500 Subject: The voodoo of SCSI... In-Reply-To: <461B7842.8010403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070410074356.00cf7df0@localhost> At 06:42 AM 4/10/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Ok, here's a nice one... > >I've got a SCSI drive that was working fine in a test system the other >day. I came to plug it in to a system today via a known-working external >SCSI box, and when I hit the power the drive didn't spin up and sat there >with the LED constantly on. SCSI drives often have a spin-up jumper, so that the machine can spin them up one at a time to decrease inrush current caused by large arrays spinning up all at the same time. Some drives also have a spin-up delay jumper-- 1, 2, 4 or 8 seconds. Others switch on the motor on first access. On many drives, the jumper(s) are on the bottom. I never heard that these lines are brought out to the interface, but also I never heard that they're not brought out. Perhaps that's something to do with it. ----- 453. [Humor] I played a blank tape on full volume. The mime who lived next door complained. So I shot him with a gun with a silencer. --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 07:58:01 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:58:01 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: <461B8702.5070404@dunnington.plus.com> References: <461A0794.7000009@dunnington.plus.com> <461AD78C.8040101@dunnington.plus.com> <5BD9C057-559C-43F9-8B68-A76E5A817FA8@xlisper.com> <461B8702.5070404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <9E8C9F19-58E6-4FB3-81D0-2F00D68706EB@xlisper.com> >> I soldered it back together but both drives still fail. At least >> one of the drives spins up but then back down again. > > That can happen if the heads are stuck against the end stop inside > the drive. There's a rubber bumper that goes sticky. Alison > posted more information about that just a few days ago. Yes, I saw those messages. At this point I'm not up for opening up the drive to attempt a fix though. I guess if one of my good ones stops working I may change my mind. Instead, I'm starting to look into what is necessary for a minimal RT-11 bootable RX50 diskette. Unfortunately, that's the only medium I have for moving things to the hard drive on the PDP-11. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 07:58:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:58:41 -0400 Subject: The voodoo of SCSI... In-Reply-To: <461B7842.8010403@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461B7842.8010403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461B8A01.8050800@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ok, here's a nice one... > > I've got a SCSI drive that was working fine in a test system the other > day. I came to plug it in to a system today via a known-working external > SCSI box, and when I hit the power the drive didn't spin up and sat > there with the LED constantly on. > > Try using a SCSI cable with its pairs twisted. It shouldn't be too hard to find one. Peace... Sridhar From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Apr 10 08:20:55 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:20:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration Message-ID: <15042673.1176211255396.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Henk wrote: >I still want to get my TC11-TU56 online, but my 11/84 is >giving problems with the RL02 drives. Need to fix that first. > >Is the H720 the power supply inside the TU56 chassis? >ISTR that you need an external power supply, +5 or +15 comes >to mind, and there are two voltages possible, but only one >must be connected ... I could be totally wrong. > >The first thing I must do is a check if all FlipChips in the >TC11 are at their correct position, and if all are present...! > >Following this thread with argus eyes :-) > The H720 is a separate power supply and is not part of the TU56 chassis. It has (IIRC) spade connectors to run the various voltages to the TU56/TC11. I have hooked up the TU56 to the H720 to test it out in standalone mode. If I am able to escape from "she-who-must-be-obeyed" tonight, I plan to make some progress on this project. I'll keep you posted! Ashley From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 08:28:29 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:28:29 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk Message-ID: I'm trying to use simh to create an RT-11 bootable RX50 disk and am following some instructions posted by Megan Gentry a while ago. I've created the disk image but am having trouble making it bootable. The copy/boot command claims it can't find the RT-11 image but it is clearly on the floppy (du0). Any idea what's going wrong? .dir du0: 10-Apr-99 RT11XM.SYS 106P 20-Dec-85 DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 PIP .SAV 30P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 EDIT .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 MACRO .SAV 61P 20-Dec-85 CREF .SAV 6P 20-Dec-85 LINK .SAV 49P 20-Dec-85 LIBR .SAV 24P 20-Dec-85 FILEX .SAV 22P 20-Dec-85 HELP .SAV 132P 20-Dec-85 BATCH .SAV 26P 20-Dec-85 FORMAT.SAV 24P 20-Dec-85 SETUP .SAV 41P 20-Dec-85 SPEED .SAV 4P 20-Dec-85 DATIME.SAV 4P 20-Dec-85 LET .SAV 5P 20-Dec-85 SPLIT .SAV 3P 20-Dec-85 CONFIG.SAV 7P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 23 Files, 691 Blocks 95 Free blocks .copy/boot du0:rt11xm.sys du0: ?DUP-F-File not found DU0:RT11XM.SYS From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Apr 10 08:30:52 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:30:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration Message-ID: <8921423.1176211853124.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Henk wrote: >I still want to get my TC11-TU56 online, but my 11/84 is >giving problems with the RL02 drives. Need to fix that first. Is your 11/35 still alive and well? I thought you had the TU56 hooked up to your 11/35 in that massive chain of H960 racks. I recently acquired an 11/35 in a rack with an RK05J and an RK05F. It has some life in it, but is not behaving correctly. Some bits seem to get stuck when I run tests depositing and examining memory. I am in the process of validating some of my spare 11/40 CPU modules. Hopefully I have enough good spares to get the 11/35 up and running. Ashley From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 10 08:56:50 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:56:50 +0200 Subject: TU56/TC11 configuration In-Reply-To: <8921423.1176211853124.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488382@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > Sent: dinsdag 10 april 2007 15:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: TU56/TC11 configuration > > >Henk wrote: > >I still want to get my TC11-TU56 online, but my 11/84 is giving > >problems with the RL02 drives. Need to fix that first. > > Is your 11/35 still alive and well? I thought you had the > TU56 hooked up to your 11/35 in that massive chain of H960 racks. > > I recently acquired an 11/35 in a rack with an RK05J and an > RK05F. It has some life in it, but is not behaving > correctly. Some bits seem to get stuck when I run tests > depositing and examining memory. I am in the process of > validating some of my spare 11/40 CPU modules. Hopefully I > have enough good spares to get the 11/35 up and running. > > Ashley I don't know, I have not powered the 11/35 for at least 3 years. That was the next machine I wanted to revive, but just last week I tried to make a copy of my RT11 RL02 (boot) disk, but the /84 now reports "21 Drive Error". It was working fine just 2 months ago! But after the RL11 problems in the /84 are solved, the 11/35 is waiting to be checked out. PSUs first, etc ... And yes, the TU56 will be hooked to that system. Another problem is that the drive roller of both TE16's have gone mushy/sticky :-( You have spare 11/40 modules ... I cross my fingers, because I do not have any, so a non-working machine will mean a lot of fun ... "Real Soon Now" to be read here ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 10 09:04:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:04:44 -0300 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk><461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> <461B4F8A.9050107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <078101c77b79$360a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> http://torlus.com/floppy/ From ken at seefried.com Tue Apr 10 09:41:02 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:41:02 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> From: der Mouse > >> Does somebody know of a modern Unix system which truly focuses on >> resources consumption, which is lean and fast? > >I'd like to hear if you find one. It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have something useful to build on. > Especially, I'd like to hear about an open-source C compiler that (a) > supports at least sparc, i386, mips, and arm - those being the CPUs I > care about at the moment - and (b) is not a resource pig. Old GCC (1.x or 2.x)? Not a not-pig, but compared to 3.x or 4.x, it's lightweight. Couldn't you build NetBSD 1.6 with 2.95.3? From ken at seefried.com Tue Apr 10 09:59:02 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:59:02 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070410145902.25752.qmail@seefried.com> > And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members use on > their classic iron? I ran it on my VS3100, Alpha PC64-275, various MIPS & ARM gear, Sun 3 & SS20, MVME 680[346]0, VME PPC, and Xen & x86 (not classic). I still have 1.5 on a PC532 and run current on Xen & x86, having gotten rid of everything else (well...the VME stuff is in storage pending a decision on keeping it). From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 10 10:01:56 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:01:56 -0500 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS References: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org><200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0704092220s4560198dx12fe2b5df23d77e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d301c77b81$2fe62cc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> My apologies to the list for that one (posting of a wikipedia article). Hexxie snuck by me under a pseudonym. Geeze do I really have to start going through the headers of all emails too? Jay From cc at corti-net.de Tue Apr 10 10:02:00 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:02:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B72C0.80204@philpem.me.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461B72C0.80204@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's a state machine. Yes, I begin to understand. I've missed the part where the state machine is clocked with the master clock. This makes more sense now. >> /RDDAT shows the bit pattern 10100001, i.e. $A1. But the address mark for >> MFM consists of four bytes ($A1A1A1xx), and the address mark bytes have >> clock bits 2, 3 and 4 removed, your data stream seems only to have bit 3 >> removed. > Um, no. > The MFM sync word does decode as 0xA1, but it has a missing clock bit in the > lower nibble - it's encoded as: > 01 00 01 00 10 00 10 01 > ^ > missing clock 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 C D C D C D C D C D C D C D C D D = $A1 C = $0A Ok, I was referring to the IBM 5114 maintenance manual which describes FM and MFM encoding that IBM used for their drives/controllers. But you are right, e.g. the "Floppy Disk Data Separator Design Guide for the DP8463" says that the address mark $A1 has a clock pattern of $0A. I don't really know what IBM meant with "missing clock bits 2, 3 and 4"... I think it applies to the $FE or $F8 address mark in FM. Christian From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 10:03:32 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:03:32 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 10:41:02AM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have something useful > to build on. That sounds quite reasonable, but you are then working with an old system. What I really dream of is a system which is kept current, updated but not bloated. I mean, I don't want great, fancy features but a system which is not 5 or more years old, but current. Sorry, english is not my native tongue and I'm not sure I really express what I mean. > Old GCC (1.x or 2.x)? Not a not-pig, but compared to 3.x or 4.x, it's > lightweight. Couldn't you build NetBSD 1.6 with 2.95.3? *Old*, that's it. I'd like to run a current system on, let say, a 386 with 16MB and 420MB HDD or something like that. Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 10:07:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:07:28 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410145902.25752.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070410145902.25752.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <461BA830.6040800@gmail.com> Ken Seefried wrote: > >> And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members use on >> their classic iron? > > I ran it on my VS3100, Alpha PC64-275, various MIPS & ARM gear, Sun 3 & > SS20, MVME 680[346]0, VME PPC, and Xen & x86 (not classic). I still > have 1.5 on a PC532 and run current on Xen & x86, having gotten rid of > everything else (well...the VME stuff is in storage pending a decision > on keeping it). Where did you manage to dig up a PC532? Or did you build it yourself? Peace... Sridhar From jim at photojim.ca Tue Apr 10 10:29:24 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:29:24 -0600 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <006e01c77b85$04fb8dd0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ensor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:27 PM Subject: Re: *nix on "classic" systems > > OI a p-90 is anything but vintage.... > > I know, I wasn't suggesting it was.... ;-) > > It's just that it's the only machine I have lying around at the moment, > capable of running *nix, which is relatively complete (anyone got a spare > set of mounting rails for a floppy drive and a CD-ROM drive for an HP > Vectra, I've mislaid mine). A P90 will do. I have Debian running on a 486sx25 with 32 MB of RAM. It's quite luxurious for a low-end 486, but it's still pretty slow. :) My firewall machine is a P133. You almost certainly won't want to run a GUI on such a machine unless you have a lot of RAM (and even then probably not), but you can put these machines to other uses. A lot of useful software runs with shell-only installations. Jim From vrs at msn.com Tue Apr 10 10:29:29 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:29:29 -0700 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS References: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org><200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com><5dc6fd9e0704092220s4560198dx12fe2b5df23d77e8@mail.gmail.com> <00d301c77b81$2fe62cc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <062b01c77b85$09443400$6600a8c0@vrsxp> > My apologies to the list for that one (posting of a wikipedia article). > Hexxie snuck by me under a pseudonym. > > Geeze do I really have to start going through the headers of all emails > too? I, for one, don't care if it came from Hex (or anyone else) via a pseudonym. If it was appropriate enough to get approved by the moderators, it's good enough for me. Vince From jim at photojim.ca Tue Apr 10 10:31:22 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:31:22 -0600 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><461AD045.8050706@philpem.me.uk> <001d01c77b21$61fc2440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <007301c77b85$4b8a2540$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ensor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: *nix on "classic" systems > > Linux-VAX runs on VAXen: > > That's the one I had at the back of my mind when I asked the question, > I'll go do some digging around their site. I don't think the kernel for Linux-VAX is very modern... I run OpenBSD 4.0 on my VAXstation 4000-60 (32 MB RAM although it ran okay with 16 MB). I'm tempted to try NetBSD on it though now that the VAX version of gcc is more bleeding-edge. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 10 10:48:45 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> from Angel Martin Alganza at "Apr 10, 7 05:03:32 pm" Message-ID: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> > > It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have something useful > > to build on. > > That sounds quite reasonable, but you are then working with an old > system. What I really dream of is a system which is kept current, > updated but not bloated. I mean, I don't want great, fancy features > but a system which is not 5 or more years old, but current. What you want is a mini-kernel and userland. I fear very few modern distros or even OSes will fit that bill. > -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- rm -rf /bin/laden ---------------------------------------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 10:59:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:59:29 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <006e01c77b85$04fb8dd0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <006e01c77b85$04fb8dd0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: On 4/10/07, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > A P90 will do. I have Debian running on a 486sx25 with 32 MB of RAM. It's > quite luxurious for a low-end 486, but it's still pretty slow. :) > > My firewall machine is a P133. > > You almost certainly won't want to run a GUI on such a machine unless you > have a lot of RAM (and even then probably not), but you can put these > machines to other uses. A lot of useful software runs with shell-only > installations. I have an IBM PS/2-e running RedHat 5.2, text-only. It's last use was with 4 PCMCIA cards in its special IBM adapter, to simulate certain features of a Cisco PIX (internal "private" network, with 2 DMZs and an outside interface). Of course one could just throw 4 PCI NICs into a modern box and run a full-on install of whatever *NIX one chooses, but it wouldn't be the size of a dictionary nor consume under 100W. http://www.nothingtodo.org/classiccmp/ps2e.htm Since the 486SLC tops out at 16M, it severely limits how modern of a distro will fit on it. RH5.2 seems to work nicely, but I'm sure an older version of Slackware would do well, too. I should see about finding a 387SX-25 for mine. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 10 11:14:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:14:45 -0500 Subject: Apple - Star Trek OS References: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org><200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com><5dc6fd9e0704092220s4560198dx12fe2b5df23d77e8@mail.gmail.com><00d301c77b81$2fe62cc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <062b01c77b85$09443400$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <002601c77b8b$5d48a120$6700a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >> Hexxie snuck by me under a pseudonym. To which Vince replied.... > I, for one, don't care if it came from Hex (or anyone else) via a > pseudonym. > If it was appropriate enough to get approved by the moderators, it's good > enough for me. I am the moderator in question. I DO care if it came from Hexstar, as I banned him from the list and he then signed up under a pseudonym to get around that and I didn't notice it. That is problem #1. Problem #2 is that even if it came from a regular listmember, it still was NOT appropriate enough to get approved by the moderators. Either I accidentally approved it because I didn't read the entire post, or it got in after I turned off full moderation mode. I am not sure which. Let me be clear Vince, posting an entire wikipedia article to the list is not appropriate. If anyone wishes to continue this thread, please contact me offlist. I will not have another long off-topic thread on this kind of thing. If the sillyness escalates, people will find that I will be MUCH quicker to turn emergency moderation mode back on than I was in the past. Jay From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 10 11:16:40 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:16:40 +0100 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <078101c77b79$360a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk><461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> <461B4F8A.9050107@yahoo.co.uk> <078101c77b79$360a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <461BB868.8050206@philpem.me.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: > http://torlus.com/floppy/ ... Which is nice, but counts as 'yet another piece of hardware to build'. Plus it uses an Altera CPLD, which means I'd need to build a Byteblaster cable and find a machine to install Altera's development software on (it doesn't get on well with the Xilinx software). Plus I doubt it can simulate motor speed variation, which makes it useless for testing decoding of 'odd' formats. Thanks for the link though. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ken at seefried.com Tue Apr 10 11:20:33 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:20:33 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101537.l3AFZrps004240@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704101537.l3AFZrps004240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070410162033.27326.qmail@seefried.com> From: Sridhar Ayengar > Where did you manage to dig up a PC532? Or did you build it yourself? I purchased the original kit from Dave & George. However, this one isn't it. My original, partially built kit got accidentally tossed in a breakup something like 15 years ago. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth. A couple of years ago, I mentioned that I was interested in ns32000 gear and got an email to the effect "I've got some of that, make me an offer". A bit of cash later I had the PC532, an ICM3216, a custom built ns32332 unit and a Heurikon VME532, along with some doco and a bunch of extra parts. Pretty decent haul. Ken From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 11:28:11 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:28:11 -0400 Subject: 68000 winnt In-Reply-To: References: <4615C419.7030801@bitsavers.org> <00c601c77888$682acfb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0704100928u12957e02vb0537bcfdabff1fd@mail.gmail.com> I have a copy of Visual Studio 5 for PPC laying around somewhere. On 4/6/07, r.stricklin wrote: > > > > > It's a pointless exercise as there really isn't any software > available for it. > > ok > bear > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 10 11:38:44 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200704101640.MAA24503@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Does somebody know of a modern Unix system which truly focuses on >>> resources consumption, which is lean and fast? >> I'd like to hear if you find one. > It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have something > useful to build on. I've been doing that for the past seven years (I froze at 1.4T in February 2000). It hasn't gone anywhere as far as I can tell. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 11:47:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:47:01 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461B4E66.7010401@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704071758.l37Hwcew009456@hosting.monisys.ca>, <461A1542.4662.43738FD4@cclist.sydex.com>, <461B4E66.7010401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461B5D15.10994.48741866@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 3:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > If the numbers work out, then I wonder if an improved format would be to have > variable-length counts: say three bits of "header", with the first bit > recording presence/absence of index pulse (vital, as you say), then two bits > which state how many bits make up the count value. That gives four possible > lengths of count which could be encoded.... I don't think that would be profitable. Consider MFM recording--you have pulses that can occur at N, 1.5N and 2N, and for address marks with missing clocks 2.5N intervals. Given the right clock selection, there's no real need for a lot of precision. Consider that most data separator circuits can tolerate about a 20 (+/- 10) percent variation in speed quite easily. A floppy drive is not a precision device, in my experience. Part of data recovery is relying on the categorization of recording methods. So, for instance if, on an MFM diskette, you find a pulse that occurs less than about 3N/4, you're safe discarding it. Similarly, if you find a gap of 4N, you probably should assume a pulse is missing. And this is really where the "gold" is. You can be a lot smarter with software than a "dumb" data separator can be when it comes to figuring out how to recover from an error. > Where are you typically finding such formats - other than the well-known > machines that used GCR? Is it more common in some of the factory process > control stuff etc. that you look at, rather than home/business systems? Some older word processors use it and you can find it on some early personal/business computers as well as some industrial equiopment (e.g. Future Data development systems). Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 10 11:51:10 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:51:10 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461B3540.9040006@saw.net> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> <461B3540.9040006@saw.net> Message-ID: <461BC07E.2020905@oldskool.org> davis wrote: > I evaluated and still have an original set of Coherent disks and manuals > with the DDK. I never used for it anything real because of it's 64K The 286 version, yes. You could use up to 16MB RAM, just in 64K segments :-) > limitation. Cute system though, a lot like Minix. Did you work for Mark > Williams? I was director of tech support before I left, yes. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 10 11:53:47 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:53:47 -0700 Subject: The voodoo of SCSI... Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BC72@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Tom Peters wrote: SCSI drives often have a spin-up jumper, so that the machine can spin them up one at a time to decrease inrush current caused by large arrays spinning up all at the same time. Some drives also have a spin-up delay jumper-- 1, 2, 4 or 8 seconds. Others switch on the motor on first access. On many drives, the jumper(s) are on the bottom. I never heard that these lines are brought out to the interface, but also I never heard that they're not brought out. Perhaps that's something to do with it. ------------------------------- Billy wrote: In the early days of SCSI, spin delay was not standardized. There were several versions. One used a fixed delay, like you mentioned. But the most common delayed a fixed number of seconds multiplied by the drive ID number. So unit 3 would be 3X delay, LUN 4 would be 4X delay, etc. This was a holdover from the SMD days. SMD drives would delay until the unit in front of them on the cable went ready. So a string of drives would come up one at time. The unit number times a fixed delay was an attempt to speed up the process. The problem only occurs on the initial inrush to the motor. And that current drops rapidly once inertia is overcome. The engineers realized that they didn't have to wait for ready, only until the current dropped to a normal level, usually only 1 or 2 seconds. Billy From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 10 11:57:10 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:57:10 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have something useful >>> to build on. >> That sounds quite reasonable, but you are then working with an old >> system. What I really dream of is a system which is kept current, >> updated but not bloated. I mean, I don't want great, fancy features >> but a system which is not 5 or more years old, but current. > > What you want is a mini-kernel and userland. I fear very few modern distros > or even OSes will fit that bill. It should still be possible; you don't need a mini-kernel for a 16MB machine. Four years ago I installed FreeBSD on a 386sx16 with 8MB RAM and it was fine. Don't recall which version of FreeBSD that was though; might have been 2.7 (whichever was the last one to only require 5MB to install). I booted from floppy and it installed itself over the internet. The key, obviously, is not loading kernel modules you don't need. Just don't expect XWindows, obviously. The only thing that stunk was recompiling the kernel -- took 30+ hours (but was worth it since I compiled out stuff I didn't need and shaved 1.5MB of kernel size, which is significant on an 8MB machine. You can always install the gentoo distribution on a faster PC, then build a 386-optimized size-optimized target system and then boot the 386 with the compiled binaries and install... there are guides for doing this on gentoo.org I believe. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 11:57:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:57:49 -0700 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B49CD.2060503@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk>, <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com>, <461B49CD.2060503@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 3:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suspect it's just to read disks that don't start the track at the index > pulse (I'd wondered the same thing until his post about Amiga floppies). The buffer on the CW is large enough to record much more than a single revolution of a diskette, so when dealing with diskettes of this type, I fill it up with larger sample. Decoding then proceeds with the first good (complete) sector in the buffer. I don't even bother to pay attention to the index pulse in this case--I just allow a certain amount of settling time after seeking and begin recording for a sufficiently long time to grab about a rev and a half. It's really no problem at all. Cheers, Chuck From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 11:59:50 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:59:50 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101640.MAA24503@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> <200704101640.MAA24503@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070410165950.GB4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 12:38:44PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have something > > useful to build on. > > I've been doing that for the past seven years (I froze at 1.4T in > February 2000). And what about security? Are you patching the packages yourself? > It hasn't gone anywhere as far as I can tell. Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. :( What was supposed to go where? :-) Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 12:03:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:03:02 -0700 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <078101c77b79$360a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk>, <078101c77b79$360a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <461B60D6.16252.4882C1EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 11:04, Alexandre Souza wrote: > http://torlus.com/floppy/ Alexandre, this is been brought up before. Unfortunately, the floppy emulator shown requires a knowledge of what's being recorded (i.e. that it's an Atari, etc.) Some of us are after a general-purpose floppy emulator (i.e., it doesn't matter what you're hooking it to-- it replaces a floppy drive and doesn't require anything more than you'd need to know about a regular floppy drive to interface.) So, for example, you could hook it to your Barudan floppy-to-paper- tape interface for your embroidery machine without having any specific knowledge. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 12:16:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:16:09 -0700 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk>, <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com>, <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461B63E9.15937.488EC385@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 9:38, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm quite tempted to make the sync word configurable, so you could sync on any > 8-bit MFM sequence you liked. I know there's at least one other 'missing > clock' sync word in common use (IIRC it's 0xC1 with a missing clock in the > second nibble). Too many years ago (probably about 12 or 13), I did a similar lashup to decode some Smith Corona 2.8" diskettes. I used a WD9216 8-pin data separator and a 2660 USART that I had kicking around in my hellbox. Since the 2660 allows for a double-byte sync character, it was pretty easy to find address headers using the sync "hunt" feature. IIRC, I don't recall if the format relied on missing sync pulses for AMs. These were oddball diskettes--you started a read and the head swept a spiral across the entire diskette, then returned to the beginning automatically. A CW wouldn't have worked, because of the volume of data in a single read operation. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 10 13:12:46 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:12:46 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461BC07E.2020905@oldskool.org> References: <461B3540.9040006@saw.net> Message-ID: <200704101717.l3AHHhEr019764@mail3.magma.ca> > > I evaluated and still have an original set of Coherent disks and manuals > > with the DDK. I never used for it anything real because of it's 64K > > The 286 version, yes. You could use up to 16MB RAM, just in 64K > segments :-) I've still got a couple copies of early QNX which ran on 8088 machines, and the upgrated "ATP" (protected) version which needed a 286. It was a decent OS. I used QNX a LOT on a Nabu 1600 which was a non- PC 8086 machine using serial terminals. Nabu QNX ran "bare", the machine could also run Xenix, which required a proprietary add-in memory management card. Early QNX was a lot lighter and faster than Xenix. Just this morning I picked up two more Altos 586's - which also run Xenix on an 8086. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Apr 10 12:18:41 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:18:41 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410162033.27326.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20070410171302.B72F7D140E@mac-mini.local> Hi Ken, if you want to dump any of these, please let me know :) Ciao Bernd On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:20:33 -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: >From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Where did you manage to dig up a PC532? Or did you build it yourself? >I purchased the original kit from Dave & George. However, this one isn't >it. My original, partially built kit got accidentally tossed in a breakup >something like 15 years ago. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth. >A couple of years ago, I mentioned that I was interested in ns32000 gear and >got an email to the effect "I've got some of that, make me an offer". A bit >of cash later I had the PC532, an ICM3216, a custom built ns32332 unit and a >Heurikon VME532, along with some doco and a bunch of extra parts. >Pretty decent haul. >Ken From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 10 12:21:15 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:21:15 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410162033.27326.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704101537.l3AFZrps004240@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070410162033.27326.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200704101321.15411.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 10 April 2007 12:20, Ken Seefried wrote: > A couple of years ago, I mentioned that I was interested in ns32000 > gear and got an email to the effect "I've got some of that, make me > an offer". A bit of cash later I had the PC532, an ICM3216, a custom > built ns32332 unit and a Heurikon VME532, along with some doco and a > bunch of extra parts. Hey, I've got an ICM-3216 which I picked up. Wow, it was 5 years ago already... Anyways, the HDD (a Seagate ST225N maybe?) and QIC tape drive were borked when I got it, and I hadn't had any success finding any OS (Genix maybe?) for it. I've got replacement drives to use, but no media to install from. :( Any chance that you (or someone else here) could help me out with that? I've also got a fully maxed-out Encore Multimax which I finally have somewhere I might be able to play with it (and I've got all the manuals and install media for it). IIRC, it's got (I think) 40 x NS32332's and 128MB of RAM (and some big SMD disks and a nice-looking vertical-rack-mount 9-track drive). I think that those are the only two NS32k architecture machines that I've got (and they're pretty well spread between low and high-end :). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 10 12:27:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:27:05 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200704101327.05431.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 10 April 2007 01:14, Jim Leonard wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > I was more concerned with running it on a VAX/SGI/Sun/NeXT box > > Your only serious consideration is netBSD, as you've found out. > Linux's roots were x86 so it hasn't been ported to nearly as many > platforms. There's platforms that Linux runs on that NetBSD doesn't, and there's platforms that NetBSD runs on that Linux doesn't... For example Linux runs on 64-bit POWER/PPC machines, and (some) ESA/390 architecture machines, which lack a NetBSD port. I just named those two off the top of my head, because architectures that I've got, and which I want to be able to run a [free] UNIXy OS on. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 12:28:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:28:42 -0400 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com> <461B49CD.2060503@yahoo.co.uk> <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/10/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Apr 2007 at 3:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I suspect it's just to read disks that don't start the track at the index > > pulse (I'd wondered the same thing until his post about Amiga floppies). > > The buffer on the CW is large enough to record much more than a > single revolution of a diskette, so when dealing with diskettes of > this type, I fill it up with larger sample. Decoding then proceeds > with the first good (complete) sector in the buffer. That's how the Amiga trackdisk.device does it... turn on the motor, slurp up a few thousand bits, then go looking for the first header. It does help that there's a set of blitter terms to convert MFM to binary and back using spare cycles from the graphics co-processor. > I don't even > bother to pay attention to the index pulse in this case--I just allow > a certain amount of settling time after seeking and begin recording > for a sufficiently long time to grab about a rev and a half. I can t quote chapter and verse for the exact amount of excess rotation that trackdisk.device does, but anecdotally, I recall 1.1 revolutions. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 10 12:27:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410165950.GB4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> <200704101640.MAA24503@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070410165950.GB4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <200704101730.NAA25097@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x [...] >> I've been doing that for the past seven years (I froze at 1.4T in >> February 2000). > And what about security? Are you patching the packages yourself? When they're things I use, yes. They seldom are. >> It hasn't gone anywhere as far as I can tell. > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. :( > What was supposed to go where? :-) The question asked about a "modern" Unix variant. An OS that stays fixed will cease to become "modern", with a speed that depends on how stringently you define "modern". If your idea of "modern" is "anything post-4.4Lite" then my frozen-at-1.4T should do fine. If it includes things like SATA support, sparc64 support, etc - all the things that NetBSD has done since February 2000 - then it won't. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 12:55:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:55:27 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410171302.B72F7D140E@mac-mini.local> References: <20070410162033.27326.qmail@seefried.com> <20070410171302.B72F7D140E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: Speaking of *nix on "classic" systems... If anyone is interested in distribution media and documentation for a no-longer-common flavor of x86 UNIX, "Interactive", write me off list and I'll put you in touch with a fellow in Ohio with a few cubic feet of boxed paper and floppies. ISTR it's Interactive 3.2 and includes a license key for 'vpix', the DOS emulator that was an optional product. Strangely enough, years ago, I _needed_ that tool because I didn't own a DOS C compiler, but a friend of mine did - he put it up under vpix (I already had a login) and was able to compile whatever tool it was I was working on at the time. As I said, write me off list if you are looking for what looks to be a full set of Interactive UNIX materials. The cost should be very close to "Mailboxes, Etc." postage from Ohio (43085-ish), but I'll let you and the present owner hash that out. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Apr 10 13:08:13 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:08:13 +0100 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/4/07 14:28, "David Betz" wrote: > I'm trying to use simh to create an RT-11 bootable RX50 disk and am > following some instructions posted by Megan Gentry a while ago. I've > created the disk image but am having trouble making it bootable. The > copy/boot command claims it can't find the RT-11 image but it is > clearly on the floppy (du0). Any idea what's going wrong? > > .dir du0: > 10-Apr-99 > RT11XM.SYS 106P 20-Dec-85 DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 > TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 PIP .SAV 30P 20-Dec-85 > DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 > RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 EDIT .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 > MACRO .SAV 61P 20-Dec-85 CREF .SAV 6P 20-Dec-85 > LINK .SAV 49P 20-Dec-85 LIBR .SAV 24P 20-Dec-85 > FILEX .SAV 22P 20-Dec-85 HELP .SAV 132P 20-Dec-85 > BATCH .SAV 26P 20-Dec-85 FORMAT.SAV 24P 20-Dec-85 > SETUP .SAV 41P 20-Dec-85 SPEED .SAV 4P 20-Dec-85 > DATIME.SAV 4P 20-Dec-85 LET .SAV 5P 20-Dec-85 > SPLIT .SAV 3P 20-Dec-85 CONFIG.SAV 7P 20-Dec-85 > SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 > 23 Files, 691 Blocks > 95 Free blocks > > .copy/boot du0:rt11xm.sys du0: > ?DUP-F-File not found DU0:RT11XM.SYS Been a looooong time since I did any RT11, but doesn't the P after the blocksize mean the file's protected? Isn't there an UNPROT command? /rusty brain -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 13:14:33 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:14:33 -0500 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk>, <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com>, <461B49CD.2060503@yahoo.co.uk> <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461BD409.4030909@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Apr 2007 at 3:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I suspect it's just to read disks that don't start the track at the index >> pulse (I'd wondered the same thing until his post about Amiga floppies). > > The buffer on the CW is large enough to record much more than a > single revolution of a diskette, so when dealing with diskettes of > this type, I fill it up with larger sample. Out of interest, do you always do this for "unknown" media as a matter of course - or would you normally read a single track between index pulses, do some software analysis to see what it is, and then go back to re-read more than a single disk revolution? I suppose in an ideal world I'd assume that catastrophic failure of the media could happen very quickly - so priority is to get a snapshot of the disk onto modern storage before that happens. In other words, it'd be great if "the device" (be it CW or whatever) imaged enough in one pass, rather than requiring a read / analyze / tweak read-again cycle. In reality I've not seen many floppies (at least not 5.25") fail spectacularly - but I have come across a few. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 10 14:24:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:24:01 -0800 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I'm trying to use simh to create an RT-11 bootable RX50 disk and am >following some instructions posted by Megan Gentry a while ago. I've >created the disk image but am having trouble making it bootable. The >copy/boot command claims it can't find the RT-11 image but it is >clearly on the floppy (du0). Any idea what's going wrong? > >.dir du0: >10-Apr-99 >RT11XM.SYS 106P 20-Dec-85 DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 >TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 PIP .SAV 30P 20-Dec-85 >DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 EDIT .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >MACRO .SAV 61P 20-Dec-85 CREF .SAV 6P 20-Dec-85 >LINK .SAV 49P 20-Dec-85 LIBR .SAV 24P 20-Dec-85 >FILEX .SAV 22P 20-Dec-85 HELP .SAV 132P 20-Dec-85 >BATCH .SAV 26P 20-Dec-85 FORMAT.SAV 24P 20-Dec-85 >SETUP .SAV 41P 20-Dec-85 SPEED .SAV 4P 20-Dec-85 >DATIME.SAV 4P 20-Dec-85 LET .SAV 5P 20-Dec-85 >SPLIT .SAV 3P 20-Dec-85 CONFIG.SAV 7P 20-Dec-85 >SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >23 Files, 691 Blocks >95 Free blocks > >.copy/boot du0:rt11xm.sys du0: >?DUP-F-File not found DU0:RT11XM.SYS I believe you need DUX.SYS on the floppy if you're trying to use the XM Monitor. At that point it should work. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 13:27:50 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:27:50 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101717.l3AHHhEr019764@mail3.magma.ca> References: <461B3540.9040006@saw.net> <200704101717.l3AHHhEr019764@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <20070410182750.GC4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 01:12:46PM -0500, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > I've still got a couple copies of early QNX which ran on 8088 machines, Are they up for downloads some where? I'd love to give them a try on some of my 8088 and 8086 boxes. Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 10 13:32:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:32:14 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461BA830.6040800@gmail.com> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070410145902.25752.qmail@seefried.com> <461BA830.6040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2434DCF8-D04C-478C-B989-A2D45A8B53E6@neurotica.com> On Apr 10, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> And what modern *nix ports, if any, do other list members use on >>> their classic iron? >> I ran it on my VS3100, Alpha PC64-275, various MIPS & ARM gear, >> Sun 3 & SS20, MVME 680[346]0, VME PPC, and Xen & x86 (not >> classic). I still have 1.5 on a PC532 and run current on Xen & >> x86, having gotten rid of everything else (well...the VME stuff is >> in storage pending a decision on keeping it). > > Where did you manage to dig up a PC532? Or did you build it yourself? I was wondering the same thing. I'd love to get my hands on one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 10 13:45:21 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:45:21 -0300 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk><461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> <461B4F8A.9050107@yahoo.co.uk><078101c77b79$360a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> <461BB868.8050206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <083901c77ba0$980b4e10$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> http://torlus.com/floppy/ > ... Which is nice, but counts as 'yet another piece of hardware to build'. > Plus it uses an Altera CPLD, which means I'd need to build a Byteblaster > cable and find a machine to install Altera's development software on (it > doesn't get on well with the Xilinx software). > Plus I doubt it can simulate motor speed variation, which makes it useless > for testing decoding of 'odd' formats. The good thing with open-source CPLD/FPGA projects is that - You can always modify to suit your needs - You can always change the CPLD/FPGA and recompile the code - You can always improve it :o) Greets Alexandre :o) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 10 13:56:22 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:56:22 -0700 Subject: floppy media failure Message-ID: <461BDDD6.4020606@bitsavers.org> > I suppose in an ideal world I'd assume that catastrophic failure of the media > could happen very quickly - so priority is to get a snapshot of the disk onto > modern storage before that happens. The failure mode I've seen is oxide/binder coming off, clogging the head and carving little concentric rings in the media :-( Once the buildup starts, S/N ratio goes into the toilet, so the inner tracks often have errors. One of the techniques I've thought about to mitigate this is, as you say, just snapshot all of the data without analysis, to avoid sitting on a track for a minimal number of rotations, stagger-read tracks, or read them in inner to outer track order. There doesn't seem to be any obvious visual indication that the binder will strip off a disc, oddly enough. You'd think there would be something like physical discoloration when this was likely to happen. From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 13:57:54 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:57:54 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101730.NAA25097@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070410165950.GB4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704101730.NAA25097@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070410185754.GD4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 01:27:52PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > If your idea of "modern" is "anything post-4.4Lite" then my > frozen-at-1.4T should do fine. If it includes things like SATA > support, sparc64 support, etc - all the things that NetBSD has done > since February 2000 - then it won't. Take into account I was talking about on topic :-) boxes and, at most, a 386 with 16MB of RAM or so. Of course things like SATA, ACPI, 64bits, etc. are aout of the question. For all that, current OpenBSD, FreeBSD and Debian GNU/Linux do more than enough. My idea of 'modern' is a system which is being developed, making better, more optimised, patches are developed for it when problems or vulnerabilities occur, etc. Just think about a few people working on NetBSD 1.x, to name one, not adding new functionality, well, perhaps porting some interesting new programs, developing new ones, but mainly, keeping a good operating system, lean, fast, secure, and made today, not 5 or 10 years ago. I'm not for eyecandy (I use Ion3 as my window manager to have many xterms distributed across my screen on X, and I work on the console many times whitouth problem). I'd simply love to be able to do the same on one of my old i386 boxes, whitout having the feeling I'm running a 'Gruyere' (kind of :-) operating system. Regards, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 13:57:54 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:57:54 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> >> .copy/boot du0:rt11xm.sys du0: >> ?DUP-F-File not found DU0:RT11XM.SYS > > I believe you need DUX.SYS on the floppy if you're trying to use > the XM Monitor. At that point it should work. Excellent! That worked great. Do I also need DU.SYS or can I get rid of that? Thanks, David From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 10 14:05:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <461B1B7F.4030202@oldskool.org> References: <396570.8016.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070409182839.M61752@shell.lmi.net> <461B1B7F.4030202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070410120344.H97316@shell.lmi.net> > > Because the software was overly reliant on the index pulse, it couldn't do > > the back side of a ][ "flippy", nor hard sectored. On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Confused; the software has an option that lets you ignore syncing to the > index hole. Maybe you tested with a very early version of the software. I'm glad that they added that feature later. > Also, since stock IBM hardware/OS needs the index hole, I fail to see > how DISKCOPY could copy such a beast. Only FORMAT needs the index hole. DISKCOPY onto an already formatted disk does not. But, some drives, including some Teacs need the index to determine drive ready. One more reason to stick with the TM100-2. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 14:09:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410182750.GC4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <850282.12059.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> >Fresh out of '386s, would an "XT-286" do? "Clasic" Linux (and there I am making an assumption) won't run on a '286. Sure there are newer ports that will I guess, but that's not what you're interested in evidently. There are of course other flavuz of NIX that'll run on that...but you're likely not interested in them either :). Some people (possibly many) complain about how bloated Linux is these days. Is it possible to get by on an older distro (w/the net being what it is these days)? Features you can do w/o, but w/o security and "fresh" source code might not be such a good idea. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 14:11:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Insanely stupid! In-Reply-To: <1176189710.6030.21.camel@elric> Message-ID: <238331.26836.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Mon, 2007-04-09 at 16:04 -0700, Chris M wrote: > > > > Could we have that in English, please? > > Gordon ne habla englaise. Espagnole Si! LOL LOL LOL Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 10 14:16:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070410121001.S97316@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Also, the box should have at least one clear side. I used perspex for > the sides and top and thick rigid PVC for the base. It's important for > you to be able to see what you're working on. Harbor Freight sells some VERY cheap abrasive blast cabinets, that already have a window, gloves, fittings that can be adapted, etc. do NOT try it with a used one! > air from getting in. If you don't put in an outlet, the gas will find > its own outlet, and that won't be good. prssure relief is essential. But, the positive pressure in it will ensure that any leaks are flowing outwards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 10 14:37:39 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:37:39 -0500 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... >> I believe you need DUX.SYS on the floppy if you're trying to use the XM >> Monitor. At that point it should work. To which David replied... > Excellent! That worked great. Do I also need DU.SYS or can I get rid of > that? You would need the 'X' (extended) versions of device drivers any time you are booting an extended monitor. For the single job or baseline monitors you don't need the extended versions of device drivers. Jay From jim at photojim.ca Tue Apr 10 14:44:24 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:44:24 -0600 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <850282.12059.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <022a01c77ba8$a47bd6d0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:09 PM Subject: Re: *nix on "classic" systems > Some people (possibly many) complain about how > bloated Linux is these days. Is it possible to get by > on an older distro (w/the net being what it is these > days)? Features you can do w/o, but w/o security and > "fresh" source code might not be such a good idea. You can still run Debian sarge (the second-last version; it was the most current release until a few days ago) with a 2.2.20 kernel. Even with a 2.4.x or 2.6.x kernel it isn't that bloated. It runs fine on my 486sx25 with 32 MB of RAM, and would run okay with 16MB. I've always felt the BSD distributions are better if you want something really bare and basic, though. Jim From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 10 15:40:47 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:40:47 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410182750.GC4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <200704101717.l3AHHhEr019764@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200704101945.l3AJji0N018043@mail4.magma.ca> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 01:12:46PM -0500, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > > > I've still got a couple copies of early QNX which ran on 8088 machines, > > Are they up for downloads some where? I'd love to give them a try on > some of my 8088 and 8086 boxes. Quantum is still very much in business, so I would not feel comfortable in posting even old versions. There's also an issue that the disks are copy protected - I don't know if they would image or not - I do recall that at least one of the copy programs from the era would copy them. Their copy protection was a bit odd, and I really didn't like it because they required you to allow the floppy to be written - When you installed on a hard drive, it marked the floppy as having been installed - you could still boot from it, but you could not install to a hard drive again. If you wanted to move, they had a program which would erase it from the hard drive and put the marker back on the floppy - no allowance at all for a hard drive failure etc. - I liked QNX and probably would have continued with it had it not been for such an unreasonable CP system. There is a bootable demo disk that they used to give away - this might be OK for you to try. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 14:57:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:57:03 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <20070410121001.S97316@shell.lmi.net> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> <20070410121001.S97316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461BEC0F.6000904@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Also, the box should have at least one clear side. I used perspex for >> the sides and top and thick rigid PVC for the base. It's important for >> you to be able to see what you're working on. > > Harbor Freight sells some VERY cheap abrasive blast cabinets, that already > have a window, gloves, fittings that can be adapted, etc. do NOT try it > with a used one! Do you have a SKU? Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Apr 10 15:09:22 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 21:09:22 +0100 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 10/4/07 20:37, "Jay West" wrote: > It was written.... >>> I believe you need DUX.SYS on the floppy if you're trying to use the XM >>> Monitor. At that point it should work. > > To which David replied... >> Excellent! That worked great. Do I also need DU.SYS or can I get rid of >> that? > > You would need the 'X' (extended) versions of device drivers any time you > are booting an extended monitor. For the single job or baseline monitors you > don't need the extended versions of device drivers. I should've spotted that too. Doh :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Apr 10 15:17:25 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TI Silent 700 models In-Reply-To: <200704071808.l37I88V9011088@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704071808.l37I88V9011088@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: Back in December, there was a brief thread about whether any TI Silent 700 terminal models supported lower case with descenders. I recently picked up a "Moore Personal Terminal", which was manufactured by TI circa 1988, and is listed on the bottom as a model 707. It does do true lower case. Unlike other model 707s I've seen on the net, it doesn't have switches to set duplex, case, etc: those settings are done in software, in Command Mode. Pictures are here: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/Moore.html I don't know what speeds this unit supports, though. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 15:39:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:39:02 -0700 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461BD409.4030909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk>, <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com>, <461BD409.4030909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461B9376.24066.49488279@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 13:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, do you always do this for "unknown" media as a matter of > course - or would you normally read a single track between index pulses, do > some software analysis to see what it is, and then go back to re-read more > than a single disk revolution? Unknown media that is fairly old--yes--I record 2 revs worth and sort it all out later. Known media, is a different matter. > In reality I've not seen many floppies (at least not 5.25") fail spectacularly > - but I have come across a few. Oh, I can name a few "spectacular" brands that have been sent with "see through" tracks already on them. It seems that at least with some drives, fouling the head results in increased damage to any diskettes you might subsequently read. For reading, I've toyed a bit with the thought of using a non-contact head, maybe like a bernoulli box. But musing is as far as I've gotten. I put a dual 90MB drive up on eBay and got no interest; maybe I should look into tearing into one of the drives... Cheers, Chuck From kth at srv.net Tue Apr 10 15:42:20 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:42:20 -0600 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <461BF6AC.4040507@srv.net> Andy Piercy wrote: > > A clean box sounda a good idea, could you provide some detaile please? I've heard of people using large ziploc bags with good results. I expect there are many warnings to consider using this method, but if it's a choice between nothing and the ziploc bag, ... From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 10 15:49:32 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:49:32 -0700 Subject: Someone in search of XT/370 software Message-ID: <461BF85C.4090805@bitsavers.org> http://www.xt370.net/ From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 15:51:23 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:51:23 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> On Apr 10, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Jay West wrote: > It was written.... >>> I believe you need DUX.SYS on the floppy if you're trying to use >>> the XM Monitor. At that point it should work. > > To which David replied... >> Excellent! That worked great. Do I also need DU.SYS or can I get >> rid of that? > > You would need the 'X' (extended) versions of device drivers any > time you are booting an extended monitor. For the single job or > baseline monitors you don't need the extended versions of device > drivers. Thanks again! I have now successfully installed a minimal RT-11 on the RD54 of my PDP-11/73 system and it boots! Now I just have to configure it with the programs I need (like DECUS C). I guess RT-11 uses 512 byte blocks. My RD54 says it holds around 64k blocks. That's about 32mb. What happened to the rest of the 150mb RD54? Is it possible to put more than one partition on the drive or to convince RT-11 to use more than 32mb of the disk? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 16:09:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:09:56 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On 4/10/07, David Betz wrote: > Thanks again! I have now successfully installed a minimal RT-11 on > the RD54 of my PDP-11/73 system and it boots! Now I just have to > configure it with the programs I need (like DECUS C). Well done. > I guess RT-11 uses 512 byte blocks. My RD54 says it holds around 64k > blocks. That's about 32mb. That's the first partition. > What happened to the rest of the 150mb RD54? It's still there, lurking. > Is it possible to put more than one partition on the drive or > to convince RT-11 to use more than 32mb of the disk? RT-11 uses, IIRC, 16-bit block pointers... 65536 x 512 bytes == 32MB, the largest swath of a big drive it can grab in one chunk. I've never personally run RT-11 with a disk over 32MB, so I don't know how it's done, but I know it can be done. It might or might not depend on what version of RT-11 you have. I *think* if you have MSCP support, you always have the ability to have multiple partitions on your large drives, but someone with experience on new(ish) hardware should chime in. The largest machine I ever ran at home was an 11/23 with a couple of RL drives. When I did use RT-11 on an 11/73 with a large disk, it was under TSX-11, and without the docs in front of me, I'd hesitate to quote technique from memory. You should be able to find what you are looking for in the RT-11 docs for versions of RT-11 > 5.4, at least. Dunno about < 5.4. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 16:14:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:14:36 -0500 Subject: floppy media failure In-Reply-To: <461BDDD6.4020606@bitsavers.org> References: <461BDDD6.4020606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <461BFE3C.5020405@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I suppose in an ideal world I'd assume that catastrophic failure of > the media > > could happen very quickly - so priority is to get a snapshot of the > disk onto > > modern storage before that happens. > > The failure mode I've seen is oxide/binder coming off, clogging the head > and carving little concentric rings in the media :-( Yes, that's the one. I've not seen it often, but when it does the end result's not pretty. I had one drive a while back where the upper head got ripped clean out of the drive when the coating on the disk let go. > Once the buildup starts, S/N ratio goes into the toilet, so the inner > tracks often have errors. Soon as I hear that squeaking sound of heads scraping against things that they're not supposed to, I stop reading - I just didn't get to the drive mentioned above fast enough :-( > One of the techniques I've thought about to mitigate this is, as you > say, just > snapshot all of the data without analysis, to avoid sitting on a track > for a > minimal number of rotations, stagger-read tracks, or read them in inner > to outer track order. Good thinking. I wonder if the surface order matters too - thinking about it, it seems like the majority of failures I've seen have been on the upper surface. Possibly something to do with the spring loading arrangement in a typical drive (I'm talking 5.25" here - I don't think I've seen a 3.5" disk fail in the same way, and I don't normally touch 8" drives*) * I've got a pair of Shugart 801's sitting in the garage awaiting cleaning, so that will change... Hmm, I wonder if blowing compressed air at the heads when reading would help, or whether the coating on the disks is sufficiently "sticky" that it'd still fix itself to the head no matter what? > There doesn't seem to be any obvious visual indication that the binder > will strip > off a disc, oddly enough. You'd think there would be something like > physical discoloration when this was likely to happen. I'd noticed that too. Some brands seem to be more prone than others - not enough to form a useful pattern, but it seems that given a box of disks from random manufacturers, if one fails then others from the same manufacturer in that box will fail too. (but disks from the same manufacturer that have been stored in different conditions may well be fine) It's irritating. IMHO all the more reason to get everything possible onto modern storage first, and worry about how to get it *back* onto original media again at a later date :-) cheers Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 10 16:16:20 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:16:20 -0700 Subject: The voodoo of SCSI... In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BC72@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BC72@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <461BFEA4.1090000@msm.umr.edu> Billy Pettit wrote: >Tom Peters wrote: > >SCSI drives often have a spin-up jumper, so that the machine can spin them >up one at a time to decrease inrush current caused by large arrays spinning >up all at the same time. Some drives also have a spin-up delay jumper-- 1, >2, 4 or 8 seconds. Others switch on the motor on first access. > >On many drives, the jumper(s) are on the bottom. > >I never heard that these lines are brought out to the interface, but also I >never heard that they're not brought out. > > > There are no lines on the scsi interface for this. When the jumper is installed, the drive will spin up upon power on, or if in the case of some drives after a delay based on its unit id, as billy said. There is a device order that tells the drives to spin up that will work to allow the spinup to be controlled by the controller. >Perhaps that's something to do with it. > >------------------------------- > >Billy wrote: > >In the early days of SCSI, spin delay was not standardized. There were >several versions. One used a fixed delay, like you mentioned. But the most >common delayed a fixed number of seconds multiplied by the drive ID number. >So unit 3 would be 3X delay, LUN 4 would be 4X delay, etc. > >This was a holdover from the SMD days. SMD drives would delay until the >unit in front of them on the cable went ready. So a string of drives would >come up one at time. The unit number times a fixed delay was an attempt to >speed up the process. The problem only occurs on the initial inrush to the >motor. And that current drops rapidly once inertia is overcome. The >engineers realized that they didn't have to wait for ready, only until the >current dropped to a normal level, usually only 1 or 2 seconds. > >Billy > > > > > > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 16:20:42 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:20:42 -0500 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <461B9376.24066.49488279@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk>, <461B5F9D.10676.487DFB94@cclist.sydex.com>, <461BD409.4030909@yahoo.co.uk> <461B9376.24066.49488279@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461BFFAA.1040909@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> In reality I've not seen many floppies (at least not 5.25") fail spectacularly >> - but I have come across a few. > > Oh, I can name a few "spectacular" brands that have been sent with > "see through" tracks already on them. It seems that at least with > some drives, fouling the head results in increased damage to any > diskettes you might subsequently read. It's a case of stopping and cleaning the drive heads as soon as it happens... and cleaning the drive heads after accessing *every* different disk in the same batch, as it's reasonable to assume that storage conditions could be a factor and other disks in the same pile will be prone to failing in the same way. :-( > For reading, I've toyed a bit with the thought of using a non-contact > head, maybe like a bernoulli box. But musing is as far as I've > gotten. > > I put a dual 90MB drive up on eBay and got no interest; maybe I > should look into tearing into one of the drives... Interesting. I see maybe three or four such drives offered on the local (UK) freecycle list each year. I think I've got a couple in the attic, just because I thought I might need them some day. cheers Jules From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 10 16:33:22 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:33:22 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <850282.12059.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070410182750.GC4343@darwin.ugr.es> <850282.12059.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070410213322.GF16334@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chris M once stated: > >Fresh out of '386s, would an "XT-286" do? > > "Clasic" Linux (and there I am making an assumption) > won't run on a '286. Sure there are newer ports that > will I guess, but that's not what you're interested in > evidently. There are of course other flavuz of NIX > that'll run on that...but you're likely not interested > in them either :). > Some people (possibly many) complain about how > bloated Linux is these days. Is it possible to get by > on an older distro (w/the net being what it is these > days)? Features you can do w/o, but w/o security and > "fresh" source code might not be such a good idea. My home system is a 160MHz AMD/586 (a glorified 486) with 32M RAM and several gigs of harddrive space [1] running RedHat 5.2 and it's still usable. Of course, I have upgraded some of the more critical packages (like ssh) from source, and I'm running stuff like Postfix and Apache (1.3---2.0 is a bit of a hog to tell the truth). I use it for development and maintaining my website [2] using XSLT. Okay, browsing the web is a bit iffy these days (I have a Mac for that) but everything else (like email [4]) it's fine. -spc (Oh, and run X on it ... ) [1] I'd check, but I'm currently without DSL at the house [3]. [2] http://www.conman.org/ [3] Curse BellSouth. [4] Well, it *was* handling email until I lost DSL [1]. From jclang at notms.net Tue Apr 10 16:43:16 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:43:16 -0400 Subject: The voodoo of SCSI... In-Reply-To: <461B7842.8010403@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461B7842.8010403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461C04F4.3090809@notms.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Ok, here's a nice one... > > I've got a SCSI drive that was working fine in a test system the other > day. I came to plug it in to a system today via a known-working > external SCSI box, and when I hit the power the drive didn't spin up > and sat there with the LED constantly on. > Verify you have a source of terminator power. The drive will not spinup and the drive select will light, if no term-power is available. joe lang From fryers at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 16:50:04 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:50:04 +0100 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 10/04/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: [construction of a clean box] > Fourth, it's a good idea to use an inert gas supply. For reasons of > availability and price, the best choice might be nitrogen. Bottled > nitrogen won't be completely clean, so an air filter is probably a good > idea. Don't use a paper one, obviously. I use a glass allergen filter. > And the gas should go through a regulator. If it comes out too > quickly, it could get supercooled, and that would not be fun. And don't > forget to create a gas outlet with a one-way valve, to prevent outside > air from getting in. If you don't put in an outlet, the gas will find > its own outlet, and that won't be good. Just a small thing about the inert gas supply - if you do this make sure it is in a well ventilated space - otherwise you will feel sleepy and possibly never wake up. This would be a bad thing. There seem to be lots of hepa filters on the market so getting a good clean gas supply should not be too difficult. Don't use an air compressor - they have a tendency to put oil in the air and you run the risk of having condensation come out of the air supply. There are ways to remove the oil and water, but if you can afford to do this, a clean room is pretty simple. [Rest of excellent advice on building a clean box]. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 10 16:52:24 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:52:24 +0100 Subject: floppy media failure In-Reply-To: <461BDDD6.4020606@bitsavers.org> References: <461BDDD6.4020606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <461C0718.6070608@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > The failure mode I've seen is oxide/binder coming off, clogging the head > and > carving little concentric rings in the media :-( If it's a case of the binder absorbing moisture and losing grip, it might be an idea to try baking the discs for a bit to dry out the binder. The only problem is, if you get the disc too hot (the words 'Curie temperature' spring to mind) then the data's toast... What would be ideal is a floppy drive with a flying (non-contacting) head, sort of like a hard drive. I doubt it's possible to do that though... > Once the buildup starts, S/N ratio goes into the toilet, so the inner > tracks > often have errors. Hm, rig up something to unmount the heads, run some kind of cleaner over them, then remount them automatically? I'm probably thinking up overcomplex solutions again.. my design style is somewhat Rube Goldberg... > One of the techniques I've thought about to mitigate this is, as you > say, just > snapshot all of the data without analysis, to avoid sitting on a track > for a > minimal number of rotations, stagger-read tracks, or read them in inner > to outer > track order. Why would reading from inside to outside (track 80 to track 0) help? If the oxide's loose, won't it build up on the heads (and strip off of the disc) whichever way you read the disc? -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 16:58:03 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a scan doubler Message-ID: <47104.19278.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, Does anyone have a spare scan doubler - the little bit of magic that converts old style EGA to VGA signals? I'm trying to cut down on the number of monitors I've currently got in the 'workshop' and this would definitely help. Anything considered. Regards Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From rcini at optonline.net Tue Apr 10 17:32:10 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:32:10 -0400 Subject: What's going on with 68kmla.net? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0704092111v269405b8t951d9c07f7f092bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Do they need a new server? I just happen to have a spare... On 4/10/07 12:11 AM, "Noland Oakley" wrote: > On 4/9/07, Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> >> >> Server issues I guess from talking to one of the owners. How many people >> here are members? >> >> > I'm a member, are they in need of donations? If so how much and how do they > accept payment? :-) Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 10 17:30:48 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:30:48 -0500 Subject: floppy media failure In-Reply-To: <461BFE3C.5020405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461BDDD6.4020606@bitsavers.org> <461BFE3C.5020405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461C1018.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Good thinking. I wonder if the surface order matters too - thinking > about it, it seems like the majority of failures I've seen have been on > the upper surface. Possibly something to do with the spring loading > arrangement in a typical drive (I'm talking 5.25" here - I don't think > I've seen a 3.5" disk fail in the same way, and I don't normally touch > 8" drives*) ... engage brain before posting :) I was thinking of lashing something up so that the upper head wasn't in contact with the disk at all, reading the bottom surface, and only then reading the top. Thinking about it some more, the loading of the head against the surface on both sides is almost certainly critical, so this wouldn't work :( From fryers at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 17:43:10 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:43:10 +0100 Subject: Humidity and Magnetic Media Was: Re: floppy media failure Message-ID: Hey All, On 10/04/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > The failure mode I've seen is oxide/binder coming off, clogging the head > > and > > carving little concentric rings in the media :-( > > If it's a case of the binder absorbing moisture and losing grip, it might be > an idea to try baking the discs for a bit to dry out the binder. The only > problem is, if you get the disc too hot (the words 'Curie temperature' spring > to mind) then the data's toast... I am in the process of reading a couple of papers[1] on the effects of humidity on magnetic recording tape - primarily tape that has a ployester urethane binder. Turns out that the problem is the binder undergoing hydrolysis. The process is reversable but seems to take a while - several weeks at least in low humidity conditions. [...] [1] Kinetics of the humid aging of magnetic recording tape Bertram, H.; Cuddihy, E. Magnetics, IEEE Transactions on Volume 18, Issue 5, Date: Sep 1982, Pages: 993 - 999 Aging of magnetic recording tape Cuddihy, E. Magnetics, IEEE Transactions on Volume 16, Issue 4, Date: Jul 1980, Pages: 558 - 568 Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ama at ugr.es Tue Apr 10 17:43:38 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 00:43:38 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704101945.l3AJji0N018043@mail4.magma.ca> References: <200704101717.l3AHHhEr019764@mail3.magma.ca> <200704101945.l3AJji0N018043@mail4.magma.ca> Message-ID: <20070410224338.GE4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 03:40:47PM -0500, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > > > I've still got a couple copies of early QNX which ran on 8088 machines, > > > > Are they up for downloads some where? I'd love to give them a try on > > some of my 8088 and 8086 boxes. > > Quantum is still very much in business, so I would not feel comfortable in > posting even old versions. There's also an issue that the disks are copy I though they could be up to be downloaded legally. I didn't mean to get an ilegal copy, of course. > There is a bootable demo disk that they used to give away - this might > be OK for you to try. I have a copy of them which I donloaded from the QNX web site long ago. But I wouldn't have though they could run on a 386... I might try, though. Chhers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Apr 10 17:48:31 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:48:31 -0400 Subject: HP2100A core memory (period) prices In-Reply-To: <007601c77b07$7bc760c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <46148CE8.79405D12@cs.ubc.ca>, <007601c77b07$7bc760c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200704102248.l3AMmErf013307@mail.bcpl.net> On 9 Apr 2007 at 19:30, Jay West wrote: > The 1969 pricing is for the wrong product technically. It was for > memory for the 2116, which is decidedly NOT a 2100A or 2100S and your > contact was looking for memory pricing for the 2100A/S specifically. The HP Computer Museum has a 1973 2100A price list available: http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2178 The list shows memory prices both for factory installation and field installation. As the museum is located in Australia, the prices are in Australian dollars. One could convert these to US dollars by determining the exchange rate in 1973, or by comparing US prices for items in the Australian list from the 1973 HP catalog, which is available from the Vintage HP Archive: http://www.hparchive.com/hp_catalogs.htm For example, the 12972A tape subsystem lists for A$ 9920 and US$ 13400. -- Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 17:20:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:20:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Apr 10, 7 02:50:17 am Message-ID: > Fourth, it's a good idea to use an inert gas supply. For reasons of What's wrong with filtered air? It's what was used in the demountable minicomputer hard disks, and I would think it would be suitable for the sort of winchester drive we're discussing here. > availability and price, the best choice might be nitrogen. Bottled > nitrogen won't be completely clean, so an air filter is probably a good > idea. Don't use a paper one, obviously. I use a glass allergen filter. Again, why not? Every demountable hard drive I've ever worked on has used a coated paper element air filter. The service manual for at least one hard dirve (I have the manual, not the drive, I think it was the drive badged as the RK01) has a hadwritten note in it giving the make/model of a car, the air filter of which would work in said drive. And I am told A Citroen something-or-other air filter can be modified to fit an RL drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 16:57:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:57:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <31269137.1176157972457.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Michael A. Ryan" at Apr 9, 7 06:32:52 pm Message-ID: > > I am looking for information about this part; I have something of a > mystery on my hands. > > At issue is a 512K IBM memory card that is part of the PC/XT 370 > option (from 1984). > The card I have has 18 stacked chips comprising 512K of RAM; the top > chip of one of the pairs was broken off. That's the first thing that puzzles me. It was my understanding that these were 128Kbit chips, so 18 of them would give you 256K bytes (+ parity) of memory. Can you confirm, please, that 18 of them really are 512K > The top chips are stamped MCM66128L20; the bottom chips have no part number. Mu 'guesswork', based on the PC/AT Techref, is that these are a pair of 64K*1 DRAMs, both with slightly odd pinouts compared to a 4164. As with the 4164, each 64K chip has 15 active connections and one N/C, when the chips are piggybacked, the address lines, data in and out, write enable, and I think CAS/ are linked together, there are sparate RAS/ lines for each of the 2 chips, obtained by having the RAS and N/C pins the opposite way round on the 2 packages. > I could only find the part through a broker (and I paid $25 for it). > I can't find a spec sheet but expected to receive a stacked part (most > likely, two 64K chips stacked to make a "128K" chip. > > When the new chips arrived (after I signed munitions documents), they > weren't stacked pairs. That left me to wonder whether the new parts are > a later rev that incorporates all the circuits into one package or > whether (more troublesome) the bottom chip of the pair is now a > complete unmarked mystery. > > The chips were soldered together, not welded. So . . . I soldered > one of the new chips onto the top of the bottom chip. Have you tried just a new chip in place of a piggybacked module? I wonder if the new chips are actually 128K bits -- that is, they're really the 2 old chips of the pigyback on one die, in one package. If you piggybacked a new chip onto half an old pair, you'd end up with 2 chips 'in parallel' for half of the memory space, that might not matter (if you never read an un-wirtten-to location, there will be no contention becasue the same value will have been written to both chips) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 10 17:56:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:56:44 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkji099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070410144102.25450.qmail@seefried.com> <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <12915FD8-864C-4D2C-800D-A898A7AF8C12@neurotica.com> On Apr 10, 2007, at 11:03 AM, Angel Martin Alganza wrote: >> It seems that you could take a fork of NetBSD 1.x and have >> something useful >> to build on. > > That sounds quite reasonable, but you are then working with an old > system. What I really dream of is a system which is kept current, > updated but not bloated. I mean, I don't want great, fancy features > but a system which is not 5 or more years old, but current. To satisfy these requirements, a fork is really the only option. Part of the problem is GCC...It is generally a decent compiler (much less offensive since 4.x), but GCC itself is bigger than some entire operating systems. "Desktop environments" (garbage like KDE and Gnome, both of which seem to be actively trying to become slow, bloated pigs like Windows) are also a major contributor. It should be possible to take a snapshot of a current, modern OS like NetBSD, strip it down to remove all the bloated crap, and replace the compiler with something lean, like perhaps pcc or lcc. It would then be maintained separately WITH DISCIPLINE to keep it from becoming bloated. It is that discipline that NetBSD has lacked over the past 5-7 years, and now it's a bloated pig. I used to love NetBSD; I've used it on many architectures since v0.9. When Ragge first got the MicroVAX-II support working back in 1994 or os, I was one of the first to boot it. But now it is so bloated as to be almost unusable on all but the newest, fastest machines with tons of RAM. It is a real shame. I hate the notion of forks, and I hate the fragmentation of the BSD community, but I've believed for a couple of years now that a fork & stripdown of NetBSD is something that would be of benefit to a great many people...for use on old machines as well as new. > Sorry, english is not my native tongue and I'm not sure I really > express what I mean. I think your English is fine! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 10 17:59:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461BEC0F.6000904@gmail.com> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> <20070410121001.S97316@shell.lmi.net> <461BEC0F.6000904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070410155333.T9370@shell.lmi.net> > > Harbor Freight sells some VERY cheap abrasive blast cabinets, that already > > have a window, gloves, fittings that can be adapted, etc. do NOT try it > > with a used one! On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Do you have a SKU? They seem to have discontinued the one that I had in mind, but for small stuff, like microcomputer drives, look at something like #45411 $89.99 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45411 or #94978 They USTA have some nice big ones. For some of your stuff, you might want to consider using filtered air, and making one out of a 20 foot shipping container! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 10 18:27:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:27:50 -0700 Subject: Humidity and Magnetic Media Was: Re: floppy media failure Message-ID: <461C1D76.4020909@bitsavers.org> > I am in the process of reading a couple of papers[1] on the effects of > humidity on magnetic recording tape There is a patent Ampex got on tape baking. Don't have my copy handy. Dig around in the classiccmp archives, this has been discussed about a year ago. The failure mode is reversable by removing the H2O in the binder with heat/humidity reduction. For tape, I have been using a heated dehydration chamber (modified 'dry box') 50degr C, <10% humidity for about 24 hours. The trick with tape is to have a LOT of air moving to get into the reels. On 1/2" tape this is normally enough to prevent enough binder shed from clogging the heads for a single pass over the tape w/o retries. You DO NOT want the tape to stop! If it does, the built up binder will deposit itself on the surface of the tape in a vertical stripe. If you are lucky and that happens, it will occur in an inter-block gap, if not, you've just created a permanent failure (you can't clean it from the surface of the tape). There are some other tricks, like using magnetorestrictive transducers and low tape pressures, but that requires extensive modifications to the tape transport. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 10 19:02:53 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:02:53 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive interfacing In-Reply-To: <461B4F8A.9050107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46194B27.1080209@philpem.me.uk> <4619619B.2050800@yahoo.co.uk> <46197202.9030108@philpem.me.uk> <4619F95A.80901@yahoo.co.uk> <461A52AD.4000905@philpem.me.uk> <461B4F8A.9050107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461C25AD.1050503@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I should have a spare A500 here (and I've certainly got floppies) - > there's an A500 with an A590 in the back of the car that I picked up, > which if it all works will mean that my current A500 is going spare. > Getting it all to you might be a challenge, though! I have a spare A500 (v2.04 ROMs I think), system disks, and DSDD blanks that I'd happily loan or even donate to an active development project. I might even have a mouse to go with it. ;^) The information and sometimes the tools I've picked up here are incredibly valuable to me. Shipping a piece of hardware that I haven't touched in 2 years is a very small contribution, and one I'm glad to make. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 10 19:12:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:12:58 -0700 Subject: Mystery re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: References: <31269137.1176157972457.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Michael A. Ryan" at Apr 9, 7 06:32:52 pm, Message-ID: <461BC59A.7427.4A0C5EDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2007 at 22:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Have you tried just a new chip in place of a piggybacked module? I wonder > if the new chips are actually 128K bits -- that is, they're really the 2 > old chips of the pigyback on one die, in one package. If you piggybacked > a new chip onto half an old pair, you'd end up with 2 chips 'in parallel' > for half of the memory space, that might not matter (if you never read an > un-wirtten-to location, there will be no contention becasue the same > value will have been written to both chips) This reminds me of the early revs of the PC AT, which used (IIRC) stacked 64K DRAMs (the bottom used a different select than the top one, so that they could be just soldered pin-to-pin) to get a 128K module. Cheers, Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 10 19:33:07 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:33:07 +0200 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/10/07, David Betz wrote: >> Thanks again! I have now successfully installed a minimal RT-11 on >> the RD54 of my PDP-11/73 system and it boots! Now I just have to >> configure it with the programs I need (like DECUS C). > > Well done. > >> I guess RT-11 uses 512 byte blocks. My RD54 says it holds around 64k >> blocks. That's about 32mb. > > That's the first partition. > >> What happened to the rest of the 150mb RD54? > > It's still there, lurking. > >> Is it possible to put more than one partition on the drive or >> to convince RT-11 to use more than 32mb of the disk? > > RT-11 uses, IIRC, 16-bit block pointers... 65536 x 512 bytes == 32MB, > the largest swath of a big drive it can grab in one chunk. I've never > personally run RT-11 with a disk over 32MB, so I don't know how it's > done, but I know it can be done. It might or might not depend on what > version of RT-11 you have. I *think* if you have MSCP support, you > always have the ability to have multiple partitions on your large > drives, but someone with experience on new(ish) hardware should chime > in. The largest machine I ever ran at home was an 11/23 with a couple > of RL drives. When I did use RT-11 on an 11/73 with a large disk, it > was under TSX-11, and without the docs in front of me, I'd hesitate to > quote technique from memory. > > You should be able to find what you are looking for in the RT-11 docs > for versions of RT-11 > 5.4, at least. Dunno about < 5.4. > > -ethan It is possible... I use an Emulex SCSI controller on my 11/23+ and it works with multiple partition support via MSCP. Each DU: driver can control several partitions (7?). It has to be configured... Don't know how I did it. But I *think* there was something about a "set" command. The partitions on the drives (HDDs, CDROMs, ZIP) are sequential 32MB blocks. Cool to use with SIMH images: "dd-compatible" :-) The manual (?) mentioned the possibility to duplicate the DU: drivers (i.e. copy du.sys to xx.sys etc.) in order to support more partitions. But I had bad luck with that. The other issue was that I was not able to boot from one another drive than DU0: Good luck! If you have trouble, I can dig into the few runnable images I have... Regards, Philipp :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 10 19:35:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk> <461B72C0.80204@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070410173441.Q13971@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Christian Corti wrote: > Ok, I was referring to the IBM 5114 maintenance manual which describes FM > and MFM encoding that IBM used for their drives/controllers. But you are > right, e.g. the "Floppy Disk Data Separator Design Guide for the DP8463" says > that the address mark $A1 has a clock pattern of $0A. I don't really know > what IBM meant with "missing clock bits 2, 3 and 4"... I think it applies > to the $FE or $F8 address mark in FM. While you are at it, notice that the 1771 can create some FM data address marks that the 179x can not. Worse yet, they are used in TRS80 (model 1) disk formats. From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 10 20:37:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:37:09 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070410224338.GE4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <200704101945.l3AJji0N018043@mail4.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200704110038.l3B0cbBC027305@hosting.monisys.ca> > I though they could be up to be downloaded legally. I didn't mean to > get an ilegal copy, of course. Not that I'm aware of - The QNX OS is still their main product, and although it's changed a lot from the early 1.x versions that I have, it's still close enough that I think they'd care. > > There is a bootable demo disk that they used to give away - this might > > be OK for you to try. > > I have a copy of them which I donloaded from the QNX web site long ago. > But I wouldn't have though they could run on a 386... I might try, > though. They've had several demos over the years, including CD versions of their more recent offerings - the one I have is one of their earliest and I'm pretty sure it runs on an 8088 - It's a single 5.25" floppy. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 10 19:46:24 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:46:24 +0200 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> Message-ID: <461C2FE0.8030408@hachti.de> Good evening... Who's Joe? Is your message a reply to a question I cannot find??? > Hi Joe, what do you want to know? > I worked extensively in Dap16 in the 70's and still > have a working H316 at home plus plenty of spares. DAP-16 is cool! I could need some spares. Most urgently a F-04 chip... Ph From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 19:49:11 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:49:11 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> >>> Is it possible to put more than one partition on the drive or >>> to convince RT-11 to use more than 32mb of the disk? >> RT-11 uses, IIRC, 16-bit block pointers... 65536 x 512 bytes == 32MB, >> the largest swath of a big drive it can grab in one chunk. I've >> never >> personally run RT-11 with a disk over 32MB, so I don't know how it's >> done, but I know it can be done. It might or might not depend on >> what >> version of RT-11 you have. I *think* if you have MSCP support, you >> always have the ability to have multiple partitions on your large >> drives, but someone with experience on new(ish) hardware should chime >> in. The largest machine I ever ran at home was an 11/23 with a >> couple >> of RL drives. When I did use RT-11 on an 11/73 with a large disk, it >> was under TSX-11, and without the docs in front of me, I'd >> hesitate to >> quote technique from memory. >> You should be able to find what you are looking for in the RT-11 docs >> for versions of RT-11 > 5.4, at least. Dunno about < 5.4. >> -ethan > > It is possible... I use an Emulex SCSI controller on my 11/23+ and > it works with multiple partition support via MSCP. > Each DU: driver can control several partitions (7?). It has to be > configured... Don't know how I did it. But I *think* there was > something about a "set" command. Okay, I think I see how to do it: set du0 unit=0, part=0 set du1 unit=0, part=1 set du2 unit=0, part=2 set du3 unit=0, part=3 If I do this, I wonder where my RX33 will be assigned. Is it assigned du4 since du0-3 are already taken by partitions? From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 10 19:49:31 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:49:31 +0200 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: <00F0BE19-5F81-4B80-A960-836120898FA1@neurotica.com> References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> <00F0BE19-5F81-4B80-A960-836120898FA1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <461C309B.9060304@hachti.de> Huhu again! > Ok, you simply MUST put up some pics. That is your moral duty. ;) I did so.... http://h316.hachti.de And I would immediately add a link to another website... Ph From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 10 20:49:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:49:11 -0500 Subject: floppy media failure In-Reply-To: <461C1018.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461BFE3C.5020405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200704110050.l3B0ocd7029309@hosting.monisys.ca> >Thinking about it some more, the > loading of the head against the surface on both sides is almost certainly > critical, so this wouldn't work :( I've often wondered if one could make up a drive with less head pressure, possibly using some additional electronics to clean up the signal - I've had a few systems come in where people wanted the data recovered, and they've been suffering from the "circular rings of death". Never explored the idea further. Regarding Als idea of reading the disk backward - It would be a fairly simply matter to make up a version of ImageDisk which reads from the inside out. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 19:51:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:51:33 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <461C3115.6070408@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > G'Day, > > On 10/04/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > [construction of a clean box] > >> Fourth, it's a good idea to use an inert gas supply. For reasons of >> availability and price, the best choice might be nitrogen. Bottled >> nitrogen won't be completely clean, so an air filter is probably a good >> idea. Don't use a paper one, obviously. I use a glass allergen filter. >> And the gas should go through a regulator. If it comes out too >> quickly, it could get supercooled, and that would not be fun. And don't >> forget to create a gas outlet with a one-way valve, to prevent outside >> air from getting in. If you don't put in an outlet, the gas will find >> its own outlet, and that won't be good. > > Just a small thing about the inert gas supply - if you do this make > sure it is in a well ventilated space - otherwise you will feel sleepy > and possibly never wake up. This would be a bad thing. If you're using enough nitrogen to suffocate yourself, you're using *waay* too much nitrogen. It doesn't take that much. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 19:55:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:55:37 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461C3209.4090709@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Fourth, it's a good idea to use an inert gas supply. For reasons of > > What's wrong with filtered air? It's what was used in the demountable > minicomputer hard disks, and I would think it would be suitable for the > sort of winchester drive we're discussing here. Quite probably, but I constructed my clean box to work on stuff other than just hard disks. >> availability and price, the best choice might be nitrogen. Bottled >> nitrogen won't be completely clean, so an air filter is probably a good >> idea. Don't use a paper one, obviously. I use a glass allergen filter. > > Again, why not? Every demountable hard drive I've ever worked on has used > a coated paper element air filter. The service manual for at least one > hard dirve (I have the manual, not the drive, I think it was the drive > badged as the RK01) has a hadwritten note in it giving the make/model of > a car, the air filter of which would work in said drive. And I am told A > Citroen something-or-other air filter can be modified to fit an RL drive. Well, I've seen how much dust a car air filter lets through, and I won't use one on my car anymore. 8-/ Do the heads on older drives hover closer or farther from the data surface than on newer drives? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 19:59:50 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:59:50 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <20070410155333.T9370@shell.lmi.net> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> <20070410121001.S97316@shell.lmi.net> <461BEC0F.6000904@gmail.com> <20070410155333.T9370@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461C3306.7010305@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Harbor Freight sells some VERY cheap abrasive blast cabinets, that already >>> have a window, gloves, fittings that can be adapted, etc. do NOT try it >>> with a used one! > > On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Do you have a SKU? > > They seem to have discontinued the one that I had in mind, but for > small stuff, like microcomputer drives, look at > something like #45411 $89.99 > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45411 > or #94978 Hmm. I think I'll stick with the ones I built myself. They cost about 1/10 of that much. > They USTA have some nice big ones. For some of your stuff, you might want > to consider using filtered air, and making one out of a 20 foot shipping > container! 8-) I think at that point, it's no longer a clean box, but a clean *room*. Peace... Sridhar From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 10 20:16:41 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:16:41 +0200 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> Message-ID: <461C36F9.2010407@hachti.de> Hi Tony, > I worked extensively in Dap16 in the 70's and still > have a working H316 at home plus plenty of spares. What a strange posting... At the moment I have three H316 machines sitting around me. One (my first and official one) is a 16K machine with PTP/PTR, ASR, RS232 (!), "parallel channels" (docs needed!!). The second unit doesn't actually belong to me - but it will. It is a 4K machine without any options. Just the processor in the box, no peripherals. The third machine is a H316R with 16K and ALL (!!!!!!) boards (mem lockout, mem exp blah blah) installed in the CPU card cage. And some unknown peripherals. Could be very special. I tried the memory and standard CPU boards in my first machine. Except that one F-04 on the ASR pcb is mechanically damaged (lid off, bonding wires broken), all cards and the memory work fine. I just ran more than 100 rounds of CCT-4 without stop today. The chassis and all the rest haven't been tested yet. There's a very tiny PSU inside the machine. It is nearly unserviceable and I have no schematics. A very compact block with multiple separate small transformers inside. It could be a switching PSU (date code 1972) or a 400Hz power supply. Both are ugly. It is 110V according to a warning sign. Further I have a Honeywell 4210 "very low cost" tape drive unit, an empty H316 expansion box with PSU and the tape drive controller. But the tape drive needs some vacuum switch magic and some stupid idiot has stolen all the cards out of it. So I will have to construct something someday... --> I have NO spares :-( And I need at least an F-04 for my third ASR33 board to work again. Beside that damage I have not yet had any failure on one of the machines. Of course, the PSUs are part of another story. They needed some service. But I repaired three units. And one is in badly working condition, still has to be fixed (Just one small capacitor failed in the three other units..). What do you think about taking some pictures? If you don't have the time or will to put them online, I could do for you. What docs do you have? Please supply an index. Some docs are urgently needed. Same for software. I have (most important stuff): FORTRAN IV (source on PC, objects, original listings) DAP-16 (objects, SLSTs, original listings) CCT-4, CMT-5 (SLSTs, original listings) BASIC SLST Original and custom IO libraries (made routines for my printer interface), with listings and partially machine readable sources CPU schematics, manuals, blah blah Same for DDP-516 (!) etc.... I appreciate to get in touch with every X16 owner around the world! Known people with more or less working X16 equipment: Adrian Wise (H316, DDP-516) Bill Maddox (H316) Michael Umbricht (H316) Sergio Izquierdo Garc?a (H716) Erik Brens (DD-516 parts, might still sum up to several complete systems. Is selling them) Would nice to hear from you. My H316 website is http://h316.hachti.de Best wishes, Philipp :-) P.S.: I have attached a 16K auto-start SLST of my mandelbrot fractal program. The SLST is made using my selfmade DAP-16 written PAL-AP replacement (no 4/6/6 code, only PTR support, autostart facilities). Try to boot it on your machine. Or in SIMH. Both should work... :-) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 10 20:21:00 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:21:00 +0200 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <461C37FC.8030004@hachti.de> > Okay, I think I see how to do it: > > set du0 unit=0, part=0 > set du1 unit=0, part=1 > set du2 unit=0, part=2 > set du3 unit=0, part=3 Yes, that looks familiar. > If I do this, I wonder where my RX33 will be assigned. Is it assigned > du4 since du0-3 are already taken by partitions? Hm.... Every MSCP device has a device number. And you have to tell the driver on which device number and partition it should work. So if your RX33 (what IS that??) has unit number 0, you can create the devices as above. If you have different drives, you have to use unit=x. I had a HDD, CDROM and ZIP working something like at the same time... Not sure if I tried them all together. But at least two units worked flawlessly. Regards, Philipp :-) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 10 20:21:39 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:21:39 +0200 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: <4617E3E1.2030702@bitsavers.org> References: <4617E3E1.2030702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <461C3823.6000406@hachti.de> Al Kossow wrote: > > I worked extensively in Dap16 in the 70's and still > > have a working H316 at home plus plenty of spares. > > What software do you have for it? There are a few people > that have been looking for the disc operating system for > a while now And the tape drive software... And some docs...!! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 10 20:27:12 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:27:12 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C513@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Sridhar Ayengar asks: Well, I've seen how much dust a car air filter lets through, and I won't use one on my car anymore. 8-/ Do the heads on older drives hover closer or farther from the data surface than on newer drives? Peace... Sridhar Billy wrote: All of the early cartridge drives used HEPA filters with no problems. Provided you changed them when required by maintenance schedules. Current drives still use a paper type filter but it is inside the drive and not replaceable. Some of the higher speed drives (10-14K RPM) may have two internal filters and a third over the pressure equalization hole. Older drive heads of the ST412 era were in the 40-70 micro inch range. New drives with Dynamic Flying Height ability are in the 1-3 micro inch range. They also deliberately touch the media during the initial calibration cycles. This is usually only once per head during the life of the drive. There is no harm from this touch. Billy From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 20:34:45 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:34:45 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> References: <0JG600G8UI87D6T1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <461A42B0.2040306@gmail.com> <461B33A9.9070203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > A clean box sounda a good idea, could you provide some detaile please? We use the same techniques in Mushroom innoculation, working in a stream of clean air from a HEPA Filter. It is called Laminar Flow. Here are pictures of some we use in Mushroom Work. http://www.fungi.com/tools/airfilters.html The series 1 hood can be homebuilt. These people have filters for $90 for new ones. You work right in front of the filter in the clean airstream coming out. I would have no qualms about opening a HD inside a stream of clean air, I don't think there is a need for inert gas. Static electricity is a minor concern, you want to work in a grounded environment. More critical is working downstream of the drive in the airflow and moving slowly. A plexiglas shield may be handy. Here is one on Ebay if you are close, shipping would be expensive. http://cgi.ebay.com/HEPA-Filter-Fan-Unit-Laminar-Flow-Hood-Mushroom-Growing_W0QQitemZ290103957001 Item number 290103957001 if the link breaks. This is a very high grade filter, Class 100. Used hoods are often used for mushroom work as they are often replacements for semiconductor fabs that are updated regularly. I used to get Filters and hoods from intel and sold them into the fungi market and/or the semiconductor market. Personally I use a homebuilt Laminar Flow Hood with a 12 inch by 12 inch HEPA filter (came off a Fujitsu drive line) with a small squirlcage blower that I can control the speed of. The goal is to maintain about 1 pound of pressure above ambiant between the blower and the intake of the filter. This generates the even flow through the filter. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 10 20:35:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:35:48 -0700 Subject: floppy media failure Message-ID: <461C3B74.1050904@bitsavers.org> > Regarding Als idea of reading the disk backward - It would be a fairly > simply matter to make up a version of ImageDisk which reads from the > inside out. > Why would reading from inside to outside (track 80 to track 0) help? I have observed there is a higher rate of failure reading inside tracks. If there is binder shed, it may help to start on the tracks that are more difficult to read first (before the head starts to clog). The bit about non-sequential track reading comes mostly from trying to recover partially crashed 2315 media. You don't want the ceramic of the flying head within 1/2" of the bad spot for very long, or it will clog up and crash. By moving the head on the floppy you knock the accumulating crud across the surface of the disc as you seek, rather than having it pile up on the leading edge of the head. Not great, but carving grooves in the floppy is worse. From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 10 20:47:05 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 21:47:05 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <461C37FC.8030004@hachti.de> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> <461C37FC.8030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: > >> Okay, I think I see how to do it: >> set du0 unit=0, part=0 >> set du1 unit=0, part=1 >> set du2 unit=0, part=2 >> set du3 unit=0, part=3 > Yes, that looks familiar. > >> If I do this, I wonder where my RX33 will be assigned. Is it >> assigned du4 since du0-3 are already taken by partitions? > Hm.... > Every MSCP device has a device number. And you have to tell the > driver on which device number and partition it should work. > So if your RX33 (what IS that??) has unit number 0, you can create > the devices as above. If you have different drives, you have to use > unit=x. An RX33 is a 1.2mb 5.25" floppy drive. Actually, I guess I just didn't think hard enough. When I didn't have *any* set commands, the drives were automatically assigned DU0=RD54 and DU1=RX33. My guess then is that the RD54 is unit 0 and the RX33 is unit 1. The suggests that if I just add the line: set du4 unit=1 I should get the RX33 assigned to DU4: I guess I should think before I type in questions. Sorry! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 10 20:48:01 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:48:01 -0700 Subject: floppy media failure Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C514@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson pondered: ... engage brain before posting :) I was thinking of lashing something up so that the upper head wasn't in contact with the disk at all, reading the bottom surface, and only then reading the top. Thinking about it some more, the loading of the head against the surface on both sides is almost certainly critical, so this wouldn't work :( Billy wrote: The dual sided floppies offset the top head from the bottom to create a tension path for the media. This kept the media snug against the heads - critical because floppy media is based on contact with the head. Best way to think of this an S shaped that is on its side. The lobs are the two heads and the line drawing the S is the media. It is a very shallow bend for the media. Any other method would create a pinch effect that could be deadly of the coating. When the heads are unloaded, the media would float between them. Loading created the tension contour. A lot of work was done with air bearing type of read/write but it was not reliable enough to go into production. The media specs were too poor to give good snr with anything but contact recording. Contact recording was tried with hard drives a few times. These were the famous "tail draggers". None of them ever achieved reliable enough operation to survive long. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 10 20:54:28 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:54:28 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C515@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Paxton Hoag wrote: Personally I use a homebuilt Laminar Flow Hood with a 12 inch by 12 inch HEPA filter (came off a Fujitsu drive line) with a small squirlcage blower that I can control the speed of. The goal is to maintain about 1 pound of pressure above ambiant between the blower and the intake of the filter. This generates the even flow through the filter. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA Billy wrote: Ah - that brings back a lot of memories. I spent a lot of time in that factory, even before it opened. Took part in the opening ceremonty, including the Shinto blessing (the priest was flown over from Japan.) Was sad to see it close. The Hillsboro factory was one of the last high volume disk lines in the US. Only pilot lines left now. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 10 21:05:07 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:05:07 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C516@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Another possibility is to just buy a professional clean bench. It has the filters and blowers built in. I've seen them many times in Silicon Valley for $50 to $100. I threw away several of them when we closed down the Philips buildings in Sunnyvale. We couldn't even find a taker to haul them away for nothing. That was only 3 years ago. Last one I saw was at SV flea market. It was $50 and got no takers. That was about 20 months ago. Billy From GaryDFisher at shaw.ca Tue Apr 10 21:56:04 2007 From: GaryDFisher at shaw.ca (Gary Fisher) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:56:04 -0600 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? Message-ID: <0ea501c77be4$f2603620$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> >PS: If anyone knows of any sources for the ADP50 or similarly functional >8-bit ISA IDE adapters, that would be much appreciated as well. Thanks! Sorry to be late in on the discussion but.... I recommend an Adaptec ST-02 or ST-01 as I'm souping up a IBM PC portable 5155 to use a built-in CF card as a hard disk (look ma, no visible hard drives!) I tried an Trantor T-130 but it would read and not write to the drive (I tried it with a regular SCSI 40mb drive first). From doing a search on the problem, one might have to do an initialize by going into DOS debug and entering G=C800:0005 to start the utility program on the BIOS. But since I'm too lazy to try that, I got an ST-02 and put it in the 5155. No probs using any drive (the 40MB was an old Quantum out of a Mac). with Dos 3.30A to get extra partitions. The real fun was taking an ACARD 7720IU SCSI to IDE converter (AKA an ARS-2000IU), updating the BIOS to the latest version (3.86) and popping on a cheapo eBay male IDE-CF converter with a 64MB Sandisk CF card. The ST-02 and an ST-01 had no problems seeing the CF card. I had to fdisk the card on my Win 98 machine (Dos 3.30A fdisk saw extra non-dos partitions which it couldn't get rid of), but then the Dos 3.30A had no problems formatting C & D. I'm getting in a 128MB Sandisk to get some more 32MB paritions, but I think the Adaptecs are the best as far as my experience goes. The ST-01 doesn't have a floppy controller so it is a bit shorter and fits into the 5155 better. From what I can see from the labels the BIOS is the same as the ST-02 but I haven't looked that closely. This was a message from Gary Fisher From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 10 22:44:19 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:44:19 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> <461C37FC.8030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <461C5993.8050506@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: >>> Okay, I think I see how to do it: >>> set du0 unit=0, part=0 >>> set du1 unit=0, part=1 >>> set du2 unit=0, part=2 >>> set du3 unit=0, part=3 >> >> Yes, that looks familiar. >> >>> If I do this, I wonder where my RX33 will be assigned. Is it >>> assigned du4 since du0-3 are already taken by partitions? >> >> Hm.... >> Every MSCP device has a device number. And you have to tell the >> driver on which device number and partition it should work. >> So if your RX33 (what IS that??) has unit number 0, you can create >> the devices as above. If you have different drives, you have to use >> unit=x. > > An RX33 is a 1.2mb 5.25" floppy drive. Actually, I guess I just > didn't think hard enough. When I didn't have *any* set commands, the > drives were automatically assigned DU0=RD54 and DU1=RX33. My guess > then is that the RD54 is unit 0 and the RX33 is unit 1. The suggests > that if I just add the line: > set du4 unit=1 > I should get the RX33 assigned to DU4: > I guess I should think before I type in questions. Sorry! Jerome Fine replies: I suggest that you use: SET DU0: UNIT=0, PART=0 SET DU1: UNIT=1, PART=0 SET DU2: UNIT=2, PART=0 SET DU3: UNIT=3, PART=0 SET DU4: UNIT=0, PART=1 SET DU5: UNIT=0, PART=2 SET DU6: UNIT=0, PART=3 SET DU7: UNIT=0, PART=4 I realize that it creates confusion, however, if you want to do a hardware boot on the RD54, you obviously BOOT DU0: If you want to do a hardware boot on the RX33, you BOOT DU1: If you have booted DU0: (the RD54), then it is quite acceptable to regard the RX33 as DU4: since the RX33 is just a data drive at this point. But it will certainly NOT be possible at that point using V05.03 of RT-11 to command: BOOT DU4: (i.e. the RX33 floppy) since the set tables on the RX33 floppy MUST have: SET DU1: UNIT=1, PART=0 when you are doing a hardware boot and in order to do a software boot from DU0: to the RX33 floppy, the SET values for the device being booted (the RX33 being the device in question) must be identical to the SET values on DU0: or the device being booted FROM! So if you don't want to continually be confused when you boot from the RX33 which must have: SET DU1: UNIT=1, PART=0 I suggest that you have the identical SET values for DU1: on the RD54 on DU0: You will quickly find that under V05.03 of RT-11, you are ONLY able to boot from a device with a PART=0!!!!!!!!!!!! This is because the bootstrap program from DEC is missing one instruction (it was that way until V05.06 IIRC!). That missing instruction is in all of my V05.04G files of DUX.SYS, but I don't thing I ever went back to V05.03 to fix the problem. Finally, RT11XM.SYS requires device drives with the "X" added to the device name. So you will need DUX.SYS, LDX.SYS, VMX.SYS, NLX.SYS, SLX.SYS, LSX.SYS, etc. RT11FB.SYS uses the other flavour of the device drives without the "X" or DU.SYS, etc. RT11SJ.SYS also uses DU.SYS, etc. and in addition requires TT.SYS to send to / from the terminal. All of the device drivers that are used under a given monitor must be compatible with that monitor. This allows the RT-11 user to have an RT11FB monitor that is bootable with DU.SYS and an RT11XM monitor with DUX.SYS with a different set of characteristics. When you set up the monitor to be booted on DU0:, as you have found, BOTH the monitor and the correct device driver must be present. But either pair can be used: COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0: (requires RT11FB.SYS and DU.SYS) COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: (requires RT11XM.SYS and DUX.SYS) Once booted, you can software boot by: BOOT DU0:RT11FB BOOT DU0:RT11XM from either DU0: or DU1: By the way, the RX33 can hold 2400 blocks or almost all of the V05.03 distribution that runs RT-11. Leaving out all of the *.MAC files is probably sufficient. If you can experiment with SIMH or E11, it is easier to know what to do on the real PDP-11/73. Also, have the SET values that same on SIMH / E11 as for the real PDP-11/73 and that will also make things easier. You seem to be well along with RT-11. If you have any more questions, please ask. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 10 22:53:05 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:53:05 -0400 Subject: CEOWrite.... anyone? In-Reply-To: <00d301c77b81$2fe62cc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <4616593E.3070706@oldskool.org><200704070241.l372fGV1012180@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0704092220s4560198dx12fe2b5df23d77e8@mail.gmail.com> <00d301c77b81$2fe62cc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <461C5BA1.4020509@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I've restored a great deal of Data General Eclipse MV8000 AOS backup images. I am trying to read the data contained in CEO which was an office Suite that Data Generals had. I am looking for a copy of a DOS app called CEOWrite that will read in CEO format files, if anyone has a copy, please contact me off-list, thanks. Curt From evan at snarc.net Wed Apr 11 00:03:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 00:03:00 -0500 Subject: Reuters article about the hobby Message-ID: <006001c77bf6$adf7add0$6501a8c0@DESKTOP> Australia's "The Age" newspaper picked it up first, but this should be fun since wire stories go far and wide: http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/History-and-money-in-obsolete-computers/ 2007/04/11/1175971139671.html The writer quotes Sellam Ismail, Bruce Damer, Erik Klein, and yours truly. - Evan From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Apr 10 22:37:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:37:28 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: Message-ID: <007501c77bee$197d6670$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....Why on earth should I waste a platform that will run an >interesting non-Unix OS running Unix? In my case at least, it's a case of curiosity (as in, could I run the same version of *nix on an old PC, a VAX etc) and a lack of installation media.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Apr 10 22:59:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:59:43 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <007801c77bee$19e1a680$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > FBOFW, modern "free" *nix ports tend to use gcc, and gcc is >such a resource hog for anything smaller than a VAX. Even on >a VAX it's colossaly slow. Augh....any idea how it fares on, say, Sun or SGI machines? > Not on a VAX, but small and spritely, is Minix.... I remember it well, it was the first *nix I had any "long-term" exposure to back around '88 (I'd dabbled with Ultrix at university). I see they're up to "Minix 3" now! >....The Amsterdam Compiler Kit wasn't free, though! The thought of >a Unix without a compiler.... LOL, I knew there was a reason I didn't do very with it at the time.... >....even though I despise C compared to high level languages like >SNOBOL and FOCAL. You'll get no argument from me there, I learnt "C" in 1983 and hate it with a passion even to this day; I'm an assembly language programmer by trade (hence I'm currently out of a job) but I learnt quite a number of high level languages at school/university/because I wanted to and "C" was the only one I disliked....the way I look at it, it's little more than a "high level macro assembler" and really isn't suited to the majority of uses it's put to nowadays (writing embedded apps and device drivers in "C", sheer madness!). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Apr 10 22:48:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:48:12 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com><001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461B1D49.2070703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007601c77bee$199ed120$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > For low-resource x86 computing, you can run Minix on an 808x.... I dabbled with Minix on my Atari ST around 1988(ish), surprisingly I've never come across a copy of the x86 version though. >....and several variants of AT&T or SCO on 286.... Now you mention it, I have an unopened copy of SCO *SOMEWHERE* which I picked up about 15 odd years ago....I knew it would come in handy one day! ;-) Might be worth digging out.... And I'm pretty sure I have an IBM "Xenix" development kit stashed away somewhere too! >....there's an older version of Coherent that runs on 286.... Yikes, I'd forgotten all about "Coherent". I remember the ads they used to take out in "Byte" (in fact I think there's a review of it in one of my old Bytes). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Apr 10 22:51:38 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:51:38 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <005701c77af1$a2d2cee0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <007701c77bee$19bb80e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Well, since you asked, I run NetBSD on everything. (If it won't run >NetBSD, I mostly am not interested in keeping it.... >From all the suggestions here, I think that's probably going to be my route "into" *nix. As I said in an earlier message, initially at least, I don't want to be messing around with different distributions. Thanks. TTFN - Pete. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 10 06:51:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 07:51:18 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <0JGA00BPT66PDW46@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 > From: "Andy Piercy" > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:15:50 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Alison, thanks for the info, I'll have a go at opening one of the driver, as >currently they are only as much use as a large paper weight! The basic problem is the head arm is stuck to the head park bumper. One temporary fix reported was to freeze the drive rendering the bumper unsticky. Things to know: Never move the heads on the platters if they are not rotating at speed. Never touch platters. Never use magnetic tools near platters (closer than 1"), that means tools that may have remnant magnetism as well. demag them first! You can spin the disk up (just apply power) with the cover off and watch the head load action after bumper fix. Once operational, the first thing I do with the drive is cover it up and put it in a system where I back it up FIRST to another known good drive. Just in case!!! The reason is to a know good drive is faster the copy the less time the drive has if it's going to fail. I had one that failed not for HDA reasons but once the HDA was working I found it would heat up and quit (bad logic board). One last item The RD53 and RD54 drives run hot (around 35W) and lots of cooling was one way to insure they lasted longer. Heat is the enemy of those older drives and it is not unusual to find a system there the fans were dead or clogged and the drives failed.. Allison > >Sridhar, > >A clean box sounda a good idea, could you provide some detaile please? > >Thanks, > >Andy. > > > > >On 09/04/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> Andy Piercy wrote: >> > So anyway sorry to ramble, After you opened the drive, did you have any >> > problems with dust and head crashes? Do you think that it would be >> possible >> > to fabricate one of these bumpers? Do you have any pictures of this >> bumper >> > within the drive? >> >> You could always make a cleanbox to do the work in. It isn't difficult. >> There are plans available online, but if you have trouble finding >> them, I'd be willing to describe how I did it. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 10 08:37:55 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:37:55 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system Message-ID: <0JGA00GGIB4DD909@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system > From: David Betz > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:17:49 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> RD53s are notoriously unreliable, but I'm surprised that four out >> of five simply aren't detected. Are they genuine DEC RD53s? You >> need to add a PCB link to an ordinary Micropolis 1325 or 1335 drive >> to make it an RD53. Look on the PCB for the location marked R7 >> (remove two screws and carefully hinge it up) -- if there's nothing >> there, solder a link in that position. Oh, and don't use a skid >> plate with bare metal with an RD53, as it can short things out. > >Three of the four failing drives were official DEC RD53 drives as >indicated by a sticker on the top. Interestingly, when Iooked at R7 >on the PCB, two of them had the resistor present but one end had been >cut. I soldered it back together but both drives still fail. At least >one of the drives spins up but then back down again. I'm reluctant to >try swapping the PCB between my only working drive and one of the bad >ones so I think I'll just count them as a loss. The one that pinsup and then spins down has the head bumper sticking problem. That is repairable and likely the HDA and logic is good. Me I'd repair that drive and use it. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 10 10:31:30 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:31:30 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system Message-ID: <0JGA00GLFGDOD689@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system > From: David Betz > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:58:01 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> I soldered it back together but both drives still fail. At least >>> one of the drives spins up but then back down again. >> >> That can happen if the heads are stuck against the end stop inside >> the drive. There's a rubber bumper that goes sticky. Alison >> posted more information about that just a few days ago. > >Yes, I saw those messages. At this point I'm not up for opening up >the drive to attempt a fix though. I guess if one of my good ones >stops working I may change my mind. Instead, I'm starting to look >into what is necessary for a minimal RT-11 bootable RX50 diskette. >Unfortunately, that's the only medium I have for moving things to the >hard drive on the PDP-11. To boot a floppy under RT-11 is fairly easy. You will need a bootable disk, That is a copy of RT-11 with the bootdevice you plan to use configured. It also must have the hard disk driver as well and basic utilities. RT-11 fits on small devices (even tu58 256kB). FYI: an option is to use TU-58 emulator on a PC and a serial line to a PDP-11 as a fairly straight forward way to get stuff on a an -11 with blank media. At the extreme the DD boot can be hand entered into uODT as its something like 30 words long. I know I used to boot a romless 11/23 that way. Allison From stuart at retrocomputing.tv Tue Apr 10 12:26:43 2007 From: stuart at retrocomputing.tv (stuart birchall) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:26:43 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 10 16:27:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:27:35 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <461C0147.1070508@bellatlantic.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/10/07, David Betz wrote: >> Thanks again! I have now successfully installed a minimal RT-11 on >> the RD54 of my PDP-11/73 system and it boots! Now I just have to >> configure it with the programs I need (like DECUS C). > > Well done. > >> I guess RT-11 uses 512 byte blocks. My RD54 says it holds around 64k >> blocks. That's about 32mb. > > That's the first partition. > >> What happened to the rest of the 150mb RD54? > > It's still there, lurking. > >> Is it possible to put more than one partition on the drive or >> to convince RT-11 to use more than 32mb of the disk? > > RT-11 uses, IIRC, 16-bit block pointers... 65536 x 512 bytes == 32MB, > the largest swath of a big drive it can grab in one chunk. I've never > personally run RT-11 with a disk over 32MB, so I don't know how it's > done, but I know it can be done. It might or might not depend on what > version of RT-11 you have. I *think* if you have MSCP support, you > always have the ability to have multiple partitions on your large > drives, but someone with experience on new(ish) hardware should chime > in. The largest machine I ever ran at home was an 11/23 with a couple > of RL drives. When I did use RT-11 on an 11/73 with a large disk, it > was under TSX-11, and without the docs in front of me, I'd hesitate to > quote technique from memory. You have to use the LD driver. Myself I use a smaller drive as 32mb for RT-11 is a very roomy disk. A Quantum D540(rd52) at 32mb is perfect, they are also cooler and far more reliable. Another good choice is an St225 (rd31) at 20mb it's still large for a RT-11 system. Allison > You should be able to find what you are looking for in the RT-11 docs > for versions of RT-11 > 5.4, at least. Dunno about < 5.4. > > -ethan > From bqt at softjar.se Tue Apr 10 16:30:36 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:30:36 +0200 Subject: ZEMU and the pdp8 Message-ID: <461C01FC.8030207@softjar.se> David, I couldn't reply to you. Your mail server for some reason don't want anything to do with me, so I'm posting this here instead. =============== Yes, I've seen the discussion. My view is basically that it's not impossible at all. Just a question of actually write the thing. Memory wise it will be just fine. Large V5 games will probably require too much memory, but I think almost all Infocom games will be fine. They have much more modest requirements. Inform games both require lots of memory, and are extremely inefficient, on a level that makes you not want to play them because of speed issues anyway. As someone noted in cctalk, a few issues to deal with is about the fact that the z-machine is oriented towards 8-bit based architectures, so you will get some extra work, and inefficiencies because of that. Not much to do about it, except to live with it. It's nothing strange, just extra code. Any z-machine on a small computer needs to implement a virtual memory scheme. I did that for ZEMU, and the same goes for one on the PDP-8. But that's easy. You just have a paging scheme with an LRU algorithm. The easiest there is. I stole the design from Frotz, I think, and then improved some on it, and adopted it to my needs. Also, I used Frotz as a debugging tool when I wrote Zemu. It helps to have a working Z-machine around, which you can tinker with and add printouts to, to compare with what is happening in your implementation. Well, like I said. I don't see any real problems, except it will take some work. ZEMU took me probably a couple of months atleast, in the end. And then Megan did the work to port it to RT-11. For the PDP-8 I would think that you'd want atleast 16K, by the way. I think that the z-machine will need around 8K, and then you need atleast 4K for the dynamic memory, which would leave 4K for the game code. More is always better, though. Larger games will need more dynamic memory, but one 4K field for the game code is plenty enough. In ZEMU I think I normally only use 10 pages of 512 bytes each for game code, but I can play any game with just one page, and it gets slower, but not unbearably so. The things that are tricky is really timers and screen handling. A lot of code in ZEMU is to deal with this stuff. But you really don't need to bother with either. Especially not if you're focused on V3 games. Another big item in ZEMU is to deal with all different versions of the z-machine. By focusing on just V3, that would become much simpler. Actually, I think it's both realistic, and probably wise to focus on just V3. It will be much less code if you ignore other versions, most Infocom games will run just fine, and you can skip timers, and have a simple screen handling. Memory requirements will not be bad. I mean, basically, the z-machine consists of executing instructions, which aren't that difficult. And then you need the memory handler and the screen handler. A few instructions are very complicated, but that's just a very few, like the parse instruction which converts an input line into tokens. And then you need to deal with the 8 vs 12 bit issues, and decide on how to layout the virtual memory in the physical. Johnny David Griffith skrev: > On the cctalk list, there's a thread on how to get a Z-Machine running on > a pdp8. Since you did this on a pdp11, I thought you might have some > insight on this tricky goal. > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From adamg at pobox.com Tue Apr 10 19:46:51 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:46:51 -0400 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! Message-ID: <20070411004651.GA62054@silme.pair.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I think I'd mentioned this privately to Chuck the other week, but I'm not sure > if "playing back" raw data to a drive will even work, given that there will be > slight differences in drive RPM between drives: a track buffered on a "slow" > drive would run past the end of track on a "fast" drive by a few bits. Besides that, there's the fact that the copy would have twice as much peak shift and jitter as the original, and be unreadable or barely readable. > It > makes me wonder if the only way to do a 100% reliable write is to interpret > the data that you're writing, lay down a format (which is guaranteed not to > overflow available space), then lay down the actual data. Right. And you also need to verify the CRCs, and reread any sectors that failed, in case of dropout. -- Adam From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 00:44:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 00:44:13 -0500 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? In-Reply-To: <0ea501c77be4$f2603620$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> References: <0ea501c77be4$f2603620$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> Message-ID: On 4/10/07, Gary Fisher wrote: > The real fun was taking an ACARD 7720IU SCSI to IDE converter (AKA an ARS-2000IU), > updating the BIOS to the latest version (3.86) and popping on a cheapo eBay male > IDE-CF converter with a 64MB Sandisk CF card. The ST-02 and an ST-01 had no > problems seeing the CF card. Wow! That's cool. I haven't had any SCSI-to-IDE converters to play with, but it sounds like I should keep my eyes out for one. Are there any 'gotchas' with the ARS-2000IU? Max drive size? Strange SCSI packet issues? Will it work with really old SCSI implementations? Really new ones? Given your environment, I'd guess it's 8-bit SCSI, but that particular portion of the SCSI continuum covers a lot of ground. Thanks for the detailed report on what you've tried. -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 11 00:49:52 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 00:49:52 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <461C7700.5090503@oldskool.org> stuart birchall wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem While we can joke about how this is clearly not WORDS FIRST HOME COMPUTER, this is a pretty rare find, including the box and some carts. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 01:08:02 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:08:02 -0700 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6d6501090704102308v4fc5c3d7t4b520b87456c8eab@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/07, stuart birchall wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > I doubt it was the first home computer, from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatung_Einstein The *Tatung Einstein* was an eight-bit home /personal computerproduced by Taiwanese corporation Tatung, designed and assembled in Telford , England. It was aimed primarily at small businesses. The Einstein was released in the United Kingdomin the summer of 1984 From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 01:13:54 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:13:54 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704110038.l3B0cbBC027305@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704101945.l3AJji0N018043@mail4.magma.ca> <200704110038.l3B0cbBC027305@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070411061354.GF4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 08:37:09PM -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > They've had several demos over the years, including CD versions of their > more recent offerings - the one I have is one of their earliest and I'm > pretty sure it runs on an 8088 - It's a single 5.25" floppy. The ones I have are two (NIC or Modem) 3,5" 1,44MB floppy images. They are also included on "The ultimate boot CD". I doubt they'd run on anything older than a 486 or, maybe, a 386. Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From bear at typewritten.org Wed Apr 11 01:41:47 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:41:47 -0700 Subject: Someone in search of XT/370 software In-Reply-To: <461BF85C.4090805@bitsavers.org> References: <461BF85C.4090805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <38558876-9FC4-44C7-BBBD-B20BE951D426@typewritten.org> On Apr 10, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.xt370.net/ He's on the list. I have at least some of VM/PC, but when I tried to email him to let him know, I got an autoresponse from a white-list agent, which sent me to an unresponsive URL. It was sufficiently irritating that I figured it wasn't worth pursuing further. Seriously, folks, if you're going to ask for help, don't make it impossible for people to give. ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 01:46:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:46:50 -0400 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: <461C309B.9060304@hachti.de> References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> <00F0BE19-5F81-4B80-A960-836120898FA1@neurotica.com> <461C309B.9060304@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Huhu again! > >> Ok, you simply MUST put up some pics. That is your moral duty. ;) > I did so.... http://h316.hachti.de It is a thing of beauty! Thanks for the photos! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 11 02:07:15 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:07:15 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? References: <0ea501c77be4$f2603620$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> Message-ID: <00bd01c77c08$0979ac60$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:44 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? > On 4/10/07, Gary Fisher wrote: > > The real fun was taking an ACARD 7720IU SCSI to IDE converter (AKA an ARS-2000IU), > > updating the BIOS to the latest version (3.86) and popping on a cheapo eBay male > > IDE-CF converter with a 64MB Sandisk CF card. The ST-02 and an ST-01 had no > > problems seeing the CF card. > > Wow! That's cool. I haven't had any SCSI-to-IDE converters to play > with, but it sounds like I should keep my eyes out for one. Are there > any 'gotchas' with the ARS-2000IU? Max drive size? Strange SCSI > packet issues? Will it work with really old SCSI implementations? > Really new ones? Given your environment, I'd guess it's 8-bit SCSI, > but that particular portion of the SCSI continuum covers a lot of > ground. > > Thanks for the detailed report on what you've tried. > > -ethan I have a couple Acard IDE to SCSI converters, they seem pricey to me for most jobs. I use mine for older machines where IDE is not an option but SCSI drives of the size needed are way too expensive. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 11 02:08:10 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:08:10 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/4/07 18:26, "stuart birchall" wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330 > 107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Dear $gods, I fear for the future of humanity. Unless of course he's taking the piss, but I doubt it given his other feedback. It's almost like he's taken steps from my ebay page: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/museum-wow.php :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 02:11:19 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:11:19 +0200 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on "classic" systems] In-Reply-To: <12915FD8-864C-4D2C-800D-A898A7AF8C12@neurotica.com> References: <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> <12915FD8-864C-4D2C-800D-A898A7AF8C12@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> I don't know how hard would it be or whether or not it's a feasible or a crazy idea... but there it goes in the form of several thoughts. On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 06:56:44PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > To satisfy these requirements, a fork is really the only option. Maybe not, if what I'm thinking of could work out. Again, I'm not sure how feasible or hard it could be, since I'm not a coder myself. > Part of the problem is GCC...It is generally a decent compiler > (much less offensive since 4.x), but GCC itself is bigger than some > entire operating systems. I don't think that's a major problem, at least initially. One can always compile stuff on a faster box and install the binaries on the older (more classic) ones, I think. Of course, it'd be fantastic to have a lean, fast C compiler to use there, but I think other things are even more critical to get to the point of needing the compiler. > "Desktop environments" (garbage like KDE > and Gnome, both of which seem to be actively trying to become slow, > bloated pigs like Windows) are also a major contributor. I don't see DE's as a problem either. I simply ignore them all together. I never use them and never will, even when (if) I had a dual core PIV with 8GB RAM or something like that. I just don't like/want/need them. :-) > It should be possible to take a snapshot of a current, modern OS > like NetBSD, strip it down to remove all the bloated crap, and > replace the compiler with something lean, like perhaps pcc or lcc. > It would then be maintained separately WITH DISCIPLINE to keep it > from becoming bloated. It is that discipline that NetBSD has lacked > over the past 5-7 years, and now it's a bloated pig. Here it's when it (finally) comes my idea... I've been trying to get some modern Unix variant on my 486 notebook (no CD, PCMCIA NIC) for quite some time now hithout enough (to my likings) success. It's got 16MB RAM, but, for some reason, it recognises only 12. And, of course, 12MB is not enough to run any modern installer. I've ended up running a Linux distribution called Small Linux on it, but again, it's an old, poorly maintained distribution running an old Linux kernel. Many times I've though... man, if I just had a boot floppy of this *BSD system which would boot on 8, 4, maybe even 2MB of RAM, and which would allow me to install a really small base system... I could manage afterwards to get the programs I need on it once I had this base system (maybe something like 30, 40, 50MB?). > I used to love NetBSD; I've used it on many architectures since > v0.9. When Ragge first got the MicroVAX-II support working back in > 1994 or os, I was one of the first to boot it. But now it is so > bloated as to be almost unusable on all but the newest, fastest > machines with tons of RAM. It is a real shame. I hate the notion of > forks, and I hate the fragmentation of the BSD community, but I've > believed for a couple of years now that a fork & stripdown of NetBSD > is something that would be of benefit to a great many people...for > use on old machines as well as new. Well, I think that using an optimised kernel, choosing the right programs to run and so, many operating systems (included NetBSD or any other BSD variant, of course) could perform quite well on all the hardware you refer to. I'm talking about 386 most of the time just to make an idea of about the power one of the boxes I think of might have; all my Sun lunch boxes (IPX, IPC, Classic, LX) would do, as well. So, back to the point. Wouldn't it be simply great to have/build a boot floppy with an installer which is extremely lean, as to allow one to install the system with very small amounts of RAM (let say 2-4MB). An installer which would allow you to install an small, fast, lean (but current) base system? Later on would be time to think of a replacement for gcc, or X, or whatever software one wants to use (depending on what hardware one has, also). Maintenance could not be too hard, I think, since the system would be an existing already operating system (let say NetBSD to name one), just installed on a very cared, optimised for resources way. But still binary packages or even ports could be used (again carefully selecting what to use depending on the hardware power). Well, that's enough for the moment for me to keep building ideas around that, unless other people feel all this isn't stupid, absurd or silly enough to just ignore it all together, so that further ideas and conversation can develop. > I think your English is fine! :-) Thanks, Dave, sometimes one has the feeling of not being clear enough 'cause of the language limitations, you know. :-) -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Apr 11 01:09:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:09:49 -0300 Subject: RD54 or XT1140, 2140, 1190, 2190 PCB needed Message-ID: <01C77BE6.DEA81380@mse-d03> All this talk about RD53s & RD54s has prompted me to ask again: By any chance, does anyone have a Maxtor 1140, 2140, 1190 or 2190 with a failed HDA who might be willing to part with the PCB? TIA, mike From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Apr 11 01:23:00 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:23:00 -0300 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com><461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <096001c77c01$f380bb20$f0fea8c0@alpha> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Three Thousand Bucks??? What is this guy smoking? May I have some? hahahahahaha From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Apr 11 01:36:24 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:36:24 -0300 Subject: Looking for a scan doubler References: <47104.19278.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09b401c77c04$208e2b50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Does anyone have a spare scan doubler - the little bit > of magic that converts old style EGA to VGA signals? > I'm trying to cut down on the number of monitors I've > currently got in the 'workshop' and this would > definitely > help. I did it but used a multisync monitor. Some LCDs (from samsung as an example) works from 15 KHz From hachti at hachti.de Wed Apr 11 03:55:11 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:55:11 +0200 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <461C5993.8050506@compsys.to> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> <461C37FC.8030004@hachti.de> <461C5993.8050506@compsys.to> Message-ID: <461CA26F.3030002@hachti.de> Hi Jerome, > You will quickly find that under V05.03 of RT-11, you are > ONLY able to boot from a device with a PART=0!!!!!!!!!!!! > This is because the bootstrap program from DEC is missing > one instruction (it was that way until V05.06 IIRC!). That > missing instruction is in all of my V05.04G files of DUX.SYS, > but I don't thing I ever went back to V05.03 to fix the problem. Ah! That nearly drove me mad already..... Much frustration.... Could you provide me a copy of your "best" RT11 distribution? I can receive large email without problem. Would be nice, thank you. Best regards, Philipp :-) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Apr 11 03:59:21 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:59:21 +0200 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> <00F0BE19-5F81-4B80-A960-836120898FA1@neurotica.com> <461C309B.9060304@hachti.de> Message-ID: <461CA369.3070108@hachti.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 10, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Huhu again! >> >>> Ok, you simply MUST put up some pics. That is your moral duty. ;) >> I did so.... http://h316.hachti.de > > It is a thing of beauty! Thanks for the photos! Thank you :-) That are my (Philipp's) photos... Did not want to confuse anyone. Tonies machine isn't "visible" yet afaik. I am still waiting for pictures of his system... Regards, Philipp :-) From austin at ozpass.co.uk Wed Apr 11 04:45:38 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:45:38 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <096001c77c01$f380bb20$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 11/4/07 07:23, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ33 >> 0107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Three Thousand Bucks??? What is this guy smoking? May I have some? > hahahahahaha Actually, the price is ?3,000 (i.e. Pounds sterling) - this puts the price closer to Six Thousand Bucks. Gulp! Based on this desperate bid for large sums of money, one can only assume that whatever he's smoking is very, very expensive! ;-) -Austin. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 11 04:44:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:44:04 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461C7700.5090503@oldskool.org> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> <461C7700.5090503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <461CADE4.1020406@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > stuart birchall wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > While we can joke about how this is clearly not WORDS FIRST HOME > COMPUTER, this is a pretty rare find, including the box and some carts. Hmm, we did have a couple - that's not a gloat, just that I'd never considered that they might be *that* rare. I doubt the production figures were much different to other less-common UK home machines (Enterprise, Jupiter Ace etc.) - I suppose it being Ebay I could imagine someone paying 300 for one, but not ten times that. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 11 04:48:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:48:04 -0500 Subject: m68k Mirage system Message-ID: <461CAED4.1030503@yahoo.co.uk> Does this mean anything to anyone? It rings a few distant bells with me, but I can't for the life of me think what system it is (and google's littered with hits for software called mirage that runs on m68k ports of *nix-a-like OSes, so I'm having trouble filtering out the irrelevance :) We've just been offered one, but missing its disk controller, so it sounds like a no-go* - but I'm curious as to what it actually is. * Oh for infinite storage, where we could park incomplete systems in the hope that the missing bits turned up one day! :-) cheers Jules From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 05:07:11 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a scan doubler Message-ID: <37506.92411.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Unfortunately - my monitor wont scan down to 15KHz and a nice LCD monitor is out of the question (for the moment anyway). The one place I've seen scan doublers used in a major way seems to have been in the Amiga scene. I dont mind having to make up cables/adapters if anyone has anything. Cheers Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 11 03:21:27 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:21:27 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:08:02 PDT." <6d6501090704102308v4fc5c3d7t4b520b87456c8eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704110821.JAA03472@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chris Halarewich said: > I doubt it was the first home computer, from wikipedia > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatung_Einstein > > The *Tatung Einstein* was an eight-bit > home /personal > computerproduced by > Taiwanese corporation > Tatung, > designed and assembled in Telford , > England. It was aimed primarily at small businesses. > > The Einstein was released in the United > Kingdomin the summer of > 1984 As well as Tatung's own cp/m-like os there was cp/m 2.2 and zcpr3 available for it, best used with a 80-column monochrome attachemnt. I had all that, but it went to a cp/m enthusiast who would make more use of it than me! I think I've still got some of the 3-inch floppies somewhere. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 11 06:07:19 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:07:19 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Apr 2007 04:42:58 EDT." <200704100847.EAA21561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200704111107.l3BB7K5E010054@mwave.heeltoe.com> >> Does somebody know of a modern Unix system which truly focuses on >> resources consumption, which is lean and fast? There are several linux projects, most recently for 2.6 which focus on absolutely minimal ram usage. http://www.selenic.com/linux-tiny/ "damn small linux" is also pretty small disk wise. http://www.damsmalllinux.org >Especially, I'd like to hear about an open-source C compiler that (a) >supports at least sparc, i386, mips, and arm - those being the CPUs I >care about at the moment - and (b) is not a resource pig. I assume you've seen tcc http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/ -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 07:21:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:21:05 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on "classic" systems] In-Reply-To: <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> <12915FD8-864C-4D2C-800D-A898A7AF8C12@neurotica.com> <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: On 4/11/07, Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > Here it's when it (finally) comes my idea... I've been trying to get > some modern Unix variant on my 486 notebook (no CD, PCMCIA NIC) for > quite some time now hithout enough (to my likings) success. It's got > 16MB RAM, but, for some reason, it recognises only 12. And, of course, > 12MB is not enough to run any modern installer. Your extra 4MB might be hidden behind your video card. That's the case with my PS/2-E... it's a 486SLC - a laptopish 386SX with some extensions - thus a max 16M address space. In my case, there's a jumper to allow direct addressing of the RAM on the video card to enhance the "pep" of windowing environments, leaving 12MB of system RAM visible, or, you can have access to all 16MB of RAM, but pokey bitmap graphics. Obviously, I chose 16MB and poor bitmap performance since I am not running a windowing environment. Unfortunately, I'd be surprised to see such a jumper on a laptop. So one question to ask is, is that laptop a 486SX or DX, or is it a 486SLC. Those are two entirely different chips. -ethan From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 11 08:11:04 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:11:04 -0400 Subject: any Honeywell H316 experts out there? In-Reply-To: References: <000201c7790c$b9732cd0$12e86851@workshop> <00F0BE19-5F81-4B80-A960-836120898FA1@neurotica.com> <461C309B.9060304@hachti.de> Message-ID: <461CDE68.40903@comcast.net> I was always hoping to find more info on their 1646 timesharing machine that we had in school. I haven't been able to uncover anything with google. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 10, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Huhu again! >> >>> Ok, you simply MUST put up some pics. That is your moral duty. ;) >> I did so.... http://h316.hachti.de > > It is a thing of beauty! Thanks for the photos! > > -Dave > From james at machineroom.info Wed Apr 11 03:22:44 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:22:44 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <461C9AD4.6000900@machineroom.info> stuart birchall wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > Makes me smile. I owned a couple of these at one point. A great system but it wasn't an Amstrad or BBC so failed ;) From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 11 07:38:38 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:38:38 +0100 Subject: 11/45 RL02 faults when RX02 is on In-Reply-To: <6EA567D5-E9DC-4352-BB23-874415A9C34F@neurotica.com> References: <001201c776ec$f9ef7dd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <1175714869.31172.6.camel@elric> <89C7E692-D4A8-4E07-AFF9-59EC3BD6875F@neurotica.com> <1175756492.31172.15.camel@elric> <6EA567D5-E9DC-4352-BB23-874415A9C34F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1176295118.6281.4.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 15:12 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sounds like ISS: "Incompatible Spouse Syndrome". I will keep an > eye out for those boxes; it sure does look nice and beefy. I think he was just having an office clearout. I don't know if you'd find them in the US - Baydel are a UK company and there's probably not a lot of sense in shipping a big heavy OEM PDP-11 across the pond. That's probably why no-one has any boot ROMs for them. I expect that any other examples are long gone... Gordon From michaelryan at mindspring.com Wed Apr 11 08:17:35 2007 From: michaelryan at mindspring.com (Michael A. Ryan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:17:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: MCM66128L20 Message-ID: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> I am looking for information about this part; I have something of a >> mystery on my hands. > >> At issue is a 512K IBM memory card that is part of the PC/XT 370 >> option (from 1984). >> The card I have has 18 stacked chips comprising 512K of RAM; the top >> chip of one of the pairs was broken off. (Tony Duell): >That's the first thing that puzzles me. It was my understanding that >these were 128Kbit chips, so 18 of them would give you 256K bytes (+ >parity) of memory. Can you confirm, please, that 18 of them really are 512K >> The top chips are stamped MCM66128L20; the bottom chips have no part number. My mistake; I should have said there are two rows of 18 chips, 36 in all, comprising 512K. You can see pictures at:- www.xt370.net Thanks for the suggestion -- removing both the old lower chip and the new upper chip and trying one of the new chips, on the assumption that the each of the new single-DIP parts replaces one of the old piggyback pairs, is the next logical step. But the board is so rare that I don't have the courage to rework it experimentally; it has run 96 hours of memory / system board tests without failure, and so for now I guess I will leave well enough alone. I suspect, as you do, that the bottom, unmarked part has a different select line; the chips are certainly soldered pin-to-pin. The lack of a part number on the bottom chip suggests the stacked pair was sold as a single part number (and the part number suggests a 128K DRAM); the fact that the new chips have the same part number and no piggybacked partner suggests that entire 128K eventually moved inside one DIP. The Motorola books I have access to from back in the day don't list this part. I guess, based on the munitions docs I had to sign, that it was mil-spec. Thanks, Mike From martin.griffiths at gnt.co.uk Wed Apr 11 08:40:59 2007 From: martin.griffiths at gnt.co.uk (Martin Griffiths) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:40:59 +0100 Subject: GNT 4604 7102 3600 + Paper Tape supplies Message-ID: Hi Guys, Noticed some you talking about GNT paper tape readers and punches. 4600 4400 3600 7102 etc These are still manufactured in the UK for Worldwide use. Spares and repairs are also available. 1" wide industry standard paper tape rolls (and 5/8") are also available in limited colours. See our website at www.gnt.co.uk for contact details. Regards, Martin Griffiths GNT Limited W: www.gnt.co.uk E: martin.griffiths at gnt.co.uk T: 01384 236007 F: 01384 236929 M: 07921 222972 The information contained in this message (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by reply email and then delete it from your system immediately - any disclosure, copying or distribution of the message or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance upon it is prohibited and may be unlawful and GNT Limited accepts no liability whatsoever for the accuracy of its content. Any opinions expressed in the message are entirely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of GNT Limited. Please note that this e-mail and any attachments have not been encrypted. They may therefore be liable to be compromised. Please also note that it is your responsibility to scan this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. Viruses and compromises of security are inherent risks in relation to e-mail. We do not, to the extent of permitted by law, accept any liability (whether in contract, negligence or otherwise) for any virus infection and/or external compromise of security and/or confidentiality in relation to transmissions sent by e-mail. Scanned by MailDefender - managed email security from intY - www.maildefender.net From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 11 08:56:57 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:56:57 -0500 Subject: DELUA prints? (M7521) In-Reply-To: <461B63E9.15937.488EC385@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461AC89C.50203@philpem.me.uk>, <461A8F34.10080.454FE706@cclist.sydex.com>, <461B4D11.8030106@philpem.me.uk> <461B63E9.15937.488EC385@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461CE929.2030908@ubanproductions.com> Does someone have a scan of the M7521 DELUA print set? I don't see it on bitsavers... --tnx --tom From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Apr 11 09:19:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:19:23 -0300 Subject: MCM66128L20 References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >>That's the first thing that puzzles me. It was my understanding that >>these were 128Kbit chips, so 18 of them would give you 256K bytes (+ >>parity) of memory. Can you confirm, please, that 18 of them really are >>512K >>> The top chips are stamped MCM66128L20; the bottom chips have no part >>> number. Maybe the bottom chips are just EMI filters/pull ups??? :oO There are NO possibilities that memory can be piggybacked this way. When you piggyback two memory chips, at least ONE of the pins must be routed separately. At least this is what logic tells me. I never seen a 128K *D*ram chip. SRAM exists. This is something that is driving me crazy here, I cannot find any datasheets/pinouts on this part number, nor any kind of info. Crazy. IF the memory was 16-bit-word, maybe you could be using 256K chips What was the replacement part you got? Greetings, Alexandre From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Apr 11 09:49:21 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote: > There are NO possibilities that memory can be piggybacked this way. When > you piggyback two memory chips, at least ONE of the pins must be routed > separately. At least this is what logic tells me. > > I never seen a 128K *D*ram chip. SRAM exists. This is something that is > driving me crazy here, I cannot find any datasheets/pinouts on this part > number, nor any kind of info. Crazy. For a *short* time, it was possible to get DRAMs in which half of the chip was bad. I don't recall the size involved; it may well have been 256K DRAMs in which half of the chip was bad, resulting in 128K DRAMs. These chips were configured to respond to half of the address space. You could get them for either the high or low half. They were specifically intended to be stacked as a pair to make a full size memory bank. I have seen one machine that had such stacks in it. This didn't last long, because the DRAM makers were eventually able to figure out how to make enough good chips. I have no documentation for this other than my own dodgy memory. This was all many years ago. Early '80s, I think. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Apr 11 09:51:02 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:51:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: MCM66128L20 Message-ID: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> the IBM AT used two 64K piggybacked chips for a total of 128K. I don't have the chips is front of me right now, so I can not tell you if they were MOT chips or not. As for possibilities, all one has to do is approach a chip mfg and ask them to create the bond out of the chips so they can be piggybacked. Not all that hard when you have money to throw at a company. I am sure that is what IBM did. All that would need to be done is swap an unused pin with a chip select pin. One line goes to the top chip and the other goes to the bottom chip. Power, RAS, CAS, address and data can all be connected together. best regards, Steve Thatcher By the way, I did not read any of the other posts on this topic, so please forgive my intrusion if not helpful. -----Original Message----- >From: Alexandre Souza >Sent: Apr 11, 2007 7:19 AM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Subject: Re: MCM66128L20 > >>>That's the first thing that puzzles me. It was my understanding that >>>these were 128Kbit chips, so 18 of them would give you 256K bytes (+ >>>parity) of memory. Can you confirm, please, that 18 of them really are >>>512K >>>> The top chips are stamped MCM66128L20; the bottom chips have no part >>>> number. > > Maybe the bottom chips are just EMI filters/pull ups??? :oO > > There are NO possibilities that memory can be piggybacked this way. When >you piggyback two memory chips, at least ONE of the pins must be routed >separately. At least this is what logic tells me. > > I never seen a 128K *D*ram chip. SRAM exists. This is something that is >driving me crazy here, I cannot find any datasheets/pinouts on this part >number, nor any kind of info. Crazy. > > IF the memory was 16-bit-word, maybe you could be using 256K chips > > What was the replacement part you got? > > Greetings, > Alexandre > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 11 10:02:44 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:02:44 -0700 Subject: GNT 4604 7102 3600 + Paper Tape supplies Message-ID: <461CF894.6040303@bitsavers.org> > 1" wide industry standard paper tape rolls (and 5/8") are also available > in limited colours. Do you know of any sources for fan-fold paper tape instead of rolls? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 10:03:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:03:42 -0400 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 4/11/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > There are NO possibilities that memory can be piggybacked this way. When > you piggyback two memory chips, at least ONE of the pins must be routed > separately. At least this is what logic tells me. I have seen memory TI chips in databooks where you had to specify "upper" or "lower" by part number specifically because they were bonded out differently *to be piggybacked*. The memory dice were identical - what was different was the pinout, by one pin. It wasn't an unknown technique back in the day, but it wasn't the favored one. We had a Qbus COMBOARD that was experimentally altered from 512KB to 1MB by piggybacking a bunch of 50256s on top of the ones that were already there. Since we didn't have "upper" and "lower" parts, the engineers lifted one pin and ran the select line "in the air". If we could have purchased piggybackable chips, I'm sure we would have, but they _did_ exist. -ethan From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 10:21:43 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:21:43 +0200 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on"classic" systems] In-Reply-To: References: <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <20070411152143.GK4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 08:21:05AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Your extra 4MB might be hidden behind your video card. That's the Man, I should have realized that myself :-) > case with my PS/2-E... it's a 486SLC - a laptopish 386SX with some > extensions - thus a max 16M address space. In my case, there's a > jumper to allow direct addressing of the RAM on the video card to > enhance the "pep" of windowing environments, leaving 12MB of system > RAM visible, or, you can have access to all 16MB of RAM, but pokey > bitmap graphics. Obviously, I chose 16MB and poor bitmap performance > since I am not running a windowing environment. Unfortunately, I'd be > surprised to see such a jumper on a laptop. Of course I would also choose to have all the RAM to the operating system and none for video. I whish there is a way to do so on this laptop... I'll try to figure it out. Does somebody here knows? > So one question to ask is, is that laptop a 486SX or DX, or is it a > 486SLC. Those are two entirely different chips. It's a Compaq Contura 410CX, a 50MHz Intel i486DX2, acording to http://www.laptopmemoryupgrade.com/memory/CompaqContura410CXMemory.html. Cheers, Angel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From ken at seefried.com Wed Apr 11 10:33:54 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:33:54 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> > Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on > "classic" systems] I'll expand on my original suggestion: fork something from the NetBSD 1.x line, call it ClassicBSD or OldSchoolBSD or whatever, pick a fairly fixed set of hardware to support and commit to keeping things small and stable. This includes the painful process of throwing things out (in the kernel and in userland) that aren't essential to keeping old gear running or flat too big to keep around. Something vaguely like the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus philosophy, but with less....weirdness. To be survivable, you'll need to make sure what you roll out is the most conservative set of things that can actually be maintained. You need to have the guts to put the foot down and say things like "Your favorite program is too big, too slow and way too much work to keep current on the kind of machines we support, so we won't even try to support it" and "even though one of the machines we want to support theoretically could have a USB card in it, almost all don't and we can save X amount of memory and Y amount of support time by stripping the whole subsystem out, so that's what's going to happen" or "SMP? No. Just no.". ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, not 'nice to have' functionality. Just as long as we all agree NetHack stays. Note that "fork" != "stagnate". You'd need to build a community, but for a handful of committed folks folding security and other patches back in is straightforward if very time consuming, especially if you've already stripped out big, impractical stuff. Lots of projects do it with more or less success. BTW...if you aggressively avoid eye candy, even X11 can be relatively useful on old hardware. Strip out all the bloaty modules and drivers (you probably don't need OpenGL and font smoothing is a luxury you can't afford) turn off all the fancy options (no, you can't have opaque moves...not yours) and keep to a bare minimum WM. There are even lighter choices...fork a "classic" X release (like 11.3...as if your hardware supports any of the functionality added since then) or someone could raise from the dead/port MGR or some such. Ken From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 10:36:17 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:36:17 -0500 Subject: An odd terminal Message-ID: <51ea77730704110836x688e6455j3acdd50049defed9@mail.gmail.com> Hello all - I'm just starting to get my collection up online, but I thought I'd post a pic of one of the more curious items to see if anyone has ever seen one. I picked it up about ten years ago and was never able to find anything about it. Now saying that, I just gave it another Google before posting, and now find the manufacturer Xitron still exists, and found one quoted passage about the XPT itself. Perhaps I could contact them for more info. Anyway, here's the link. Feel free to check out the pics there so far. More coming soon... http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/451709551/in/set-72157600033400926/ -- Si.7k From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Apr 11 11:04:54 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:04:54 -0300 Subject: MCM66128L20 References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net><0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <0b7d01c77c53$345e8d10$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I have seen memory TI chips in databooks where you had to specify > "upper" or "lower" by part number specifically because they were > bonded out differently *to be piggybacked*. The memory dice were > identical - what was different was the pinout, by one pin. It wasn't > an unknown technique back in the day, but it wasn't the favored one. > We had a Qbus COMBOARD that was experimentally altered from 512KB to > 1MB by piggybacking a bunch of 50256s on top of the ones that were > already there. Since we didn't have "upper" and "lower" parts, the > engineers lifted one pin and ran the select line "in the air". > If we could have purchased piggybackable chips, I'm sure we would > have, but they _did_ exist. Ethan, this is news to me. I work as an electronics' designer for years, never seen ANY kind of memory made to be piggybacked. But of course, living is learning. Thanks for the info, I'd be glad if you could supply some p/n / datasheets for me to take a look. This is an interesting curiosity Greetings from Brazil Alexandre From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 11 11:08:48 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200704111612.MAA14434@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > BTW...if you aggressively avoid eye candy, even X11 can be relatively > useful on old hardware. It can indeed. I've run X on Suns with 16M. It's a little painful, but usable. 32M is enough to be fully usable, I find. This is without bloat. No KDE, Gnome, GNU Emacs, OpenGL, smoothed fonts, translucency, Xt, Xinerama, anything - it probably helps that I've written fairly minimalist versions of enough X clients that everything on my screen comes from one of my own clients: terminal emulator, clock, window manager, security front-end, picture displayer.... It's also X11R6.4 patchlevel 3, not "modern" X. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 11:17:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:17:59 -0400 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <0b7d01c77c53$345e8d10$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <0b7d01c77c53$345e8d10$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 4/11/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Ethan, this is news to me. I work as an electronics' designer for years, > never seen ANY kind of memory made to be piggybacked. But of course, living > is learning. Thanks for the info, I'd be glad if you could supply some p/n / > datasheets for me to take a look. This is an interesting curiosity Hmm... this would be in a TI paper-bound book from, say, the early-to-mid 1980s. I don't recall the exact part numbers, but it was probably some variant of the 4164. I remember the specifically because of seeing folks piggyback 16K and 64K DRAMs in other designs, and having to do the "flying select" wire and thinking how cool it was that chip makers solved the problem with a "standard" part. Wheb I run across that book, I'll look for that sheet. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 11:28:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:28:27 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on"classic" systems] In-Reply-To: <20070411152143.GK4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> <20070411152143.GK4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: On 4/11/07, Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > It's a Compaq Contura 410CX, a 50MHz Intel i486DX2, acording to > http://www.laptopmemoryupgrade.com/memory/CompaqContura410CXMemory.html. Hmm... then you don't have the problem I have with the PS/2-E, in that a true i486 has a full 32-bit address bus (the 486SLC has 24 bits). There is no CPU architectural requirement that should hide 4MB of RAM, but perhaps there's something strange about the laptop or perhaps your memory. The above link suggests that you can have up to 20MB of RAM. Do you have one 16MB module, or might you have two 8MB modules that don't play nice in the same box (i.e., 4+8 gives 12, but to get 16 or 20, you need to start with a 16?) On a more historic note, it seems that your CPU isn't quite as classic as one might think. I guess until a week and a half ago, one could still place orders for *new* 486 chips... http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/05/18/intel_cans_386_486_960_cpus/ I don't know specifics about the Contura line, but I do know that laptops could be quite fiddly with regards to memory configuration. You might see if you can still locate docs specific to your model and look up valid memory arranegments and check it against what you have installed. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 11 11:28:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:28:11 -0600 Subject: An odd terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:36:17 -0500. <51ea77730704110836x688e6455j3acdd50049defed9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730704110836x688e6455j3acdd50049defed9 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > Hello all - I'm just starting to get my collection up online, but I > thought I'd post a pic of one of the more curious items to see if > anyone has ever seen one. [...] > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/451709551/in/set-7215760003340092 6/ Dude, that looks sweet! Regarding your comments on flickr, I would say that it is definately rare. You mention there being unfiled newspaper articles on the bubble memory. I think reporters were the first market for portable terminals. The TI Silent 700 series and "Random Colleague" portable terminals fall into the same use case. I think the terminals were put under by things like the Osborne where you could use WordStar locally and have the power of a full computer with you. You could still upload your stories by modem to the main office. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 11:32:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:32:38 -0700 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <461CAB36.25127.4D8D4339@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2007 at 0:00, Steve Thatcher wrote: > the IBM AT used two 64K piggybacked chips for a total of 128K. I don't > have the chips is front of me right now, so I can not tell you if they > were MOT chips or not. What I said earlier. The 128K chips in question are probably nothing more than the old Rev I PC-AT planar chips. AFAIK, it's not possible to use any conventionally (64K/256K) DRAM in these sockets without some PCB cuts and jumpers. The technique is still being used today: google the phrase "stacked RAM". A "cheap and dirty" memory epansion for the Atari 540ST was, if I remember correctly, to piggyback additional DRAM, with the exception of one select line, which was run via wire to a different point. The "half good" memory dates back long before 256K chips--it goes all the way back to 16K ones. I've got a batch of Intel 2109s that differ from each other by a suffix -1 or -2. The idea is that the suffix indicates which half is good; otherwise the chips are electrically the same. I remember when the local Intel sales guy dropped off a bag of the things on my desk and I sorted through them and found a batch where all 16K worked in my application. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 11 11:32:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:32:19 -0500 Subject: Underclocking m68k CPUs Message-ID: <461D0D93.4080501@yahoo.co.uk> As subject... do 68k CPUs cope with being underclocked? I've got a surplus 8-MHz part from an Amiga, and at the museum we've got a 68000 microprocessor trainer which is short its CPU. I'm not sure what speed CPU the trainer expects though (because I haven't looked in any detail :-) but it'll certainly be 8Mhz or less. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 12:00:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:00:29 -0400 Subject: Underclocking m68k CPUs In-Reply-To: <461D0D93.4080501@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461D0D93.4080501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/11/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > As subject... do 68k CPUs cope with being underclocked? I've got a surplus > 8-MHz part from an Amiga, and at the museum we've got a 68000 microprocessor > trainer which is short its CPU. I'm not sure what speed CPU the trainer > expects though (because I haven't looked in any detail :-) but it'll certainly > be 8Mhz or less. Section 10.7 of the Users Manual (http://iteso.mx/~temoc/micros/MC68000UM.pdf) indicates that 4MHz is the minimum clock speed for an 8MHz-rated part. I've seen 4MHz-badged parts, but it was in a 4MHz trainer from about 1982. I don't know where you'd find performance data on a part that old. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 11 12:06:10 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:06:10 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461C9AD4.6000900@machineroom.info> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> <461C9AD4.6000900@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <461D1582.7000502@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2007 09:22, James wrote: > stuart birchall wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> > > Makes me smile. I owned a couple of these at one point. A great system > but it wasn't an Amstrad or BBC so failed ;) A friend of mine ran a software house that did games conversions, and about the time they were doing some Z80 versions of The Hunt For Red October, they wanted another machine with a Z80. I remember him telling me it was cheaper to buy two surplus-stock Einsteins, each with two double-sided 3" drives, than one Amstrad with one drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 12:21:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:21:32 -0700 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461D1582.7000502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com>, <461C9AD4.6000900@machineroom.info>, <461D1582.7000502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <461CB6AC.23385.4DBA0684@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2007 at 18:06, Pete Turnbull wrote: > A friend of mine ran a software house that did games conversions, and > about the time they were doing some Z80 versions of The Hunt For Red > October, they wanted another machine with a Z80. I remember him telling > me it was cheaper to buy two surplus-stock Einsteins, each with two > double-sided 3" drives, than one Amstrad with one drive. I've certainly seen Tatung monitors (and maybe even a terminal) from that time here in the USA, but was the Einstein ever marketed in the US? I don't recall seeing it--maybe "Einstein" was a trademarked name. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 12:22:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:22:32 -0500 Subject: An odd terminal In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730704110836x688e6455j3acdd50049defed9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/07, Richard wrote: > > newspaper articles on the bubble memory. I think reporters were the > first market for portable terminals. The TI Silent 700 series and In the late 80s or so my father worked for the local newspaper. He was given a phone number he could use to submit articles by modem. He wanted me to figure out how he could use it. All I remember is a modem answered and connected, didn't send anything, and would echo back whatever you typed. I knew it was some sort of computer at the other end instead of just a modem echoing data because control-D would cause it to hang up. I'd love to know what it was running on. Why my dad never asked for real documentation, I don't know :) I do have a photocopied manual that came with the Xitron, btw. How it survived the terminal's journey to a hamfest table I don't know. From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 12:33:55 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:33:55 +0200 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 11:33:54AM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote: > I'll expand on my original suggestion: fork something from the NetBSD 1.x I didn't understand what you meant by your original suggestion of forking. > ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, not 'nice > to have' functionality. Just as long as we all agree NetHack stays. I couldn't have though of a better way of saying it: 'have to have' is exactly what I would love to see on an OS which I would use a lot. > Note that "fork" != "stagnate". You'd need to build a community, but for a Again, I didn't find the words to express what I said before (...kept current or modern...); not to stagnate is the right word for the idea I had in mind. > BTW...if you aggressively avoid eye candy, even X11 can be relatively > useful on old hardware. Strip out all the bloaty modules and drivers (you > probably don't need OpenGL and font smoothing is a luxury you can't afford) > turn off all the fancy options (no, you can't have opaque moves...not > yours) and keep to a bare minimum WM. I, for one, don't need anything else than Ion, a framed, tiled, tabbed window manager which allows me to cut out my screen on frames to keep as many xterms (with screen and ssh connections) as I can fit; or to have just one frame with one xterm on it, when the screen is small (640x480, for instance). > There are even lighter choices...fork a "classic" X release (like 11.3...as > if your hardware supports any of the functionality added since then) or > someone could raise from the dead/port MGR or some such. I'd love to use MGR, or W (I still keep a PicoBSD+W floppy which I very much like), or whatever which allows what I've just described before. Nothing fancy, eye candy or whatever. Cheers, Angel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 11 12:35:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:35:11 -0600 Subject: An odd terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:22:32 -0500. <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > I do have a photocopied manual that came with the Xitron, btw. How it > survived the terminal's journey to a hamfest table I don't know. Double sweet! Do you have an idea of the manufacturing date for this guy? I'm guessing mid to late 70s or early 80s. This terminal doesn't have an LCD screen (like the Random Colleague), which indicates it might be a 70s model. If there's nothing obvious on the outside, take the case off and take a survey of the date codes on chips. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 11 12:37:54 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An odd terminal In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730704110836x688e6455j3acdd50049defed9@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jason T wrote: > On 4/11/07, Richard wrote: > > > > newspaper articles on the bubble memory. I think reporters were the > > first market for portable terminals. The TI Silent 700 series and > > In the late 80s or so my father worked for the local newspaper. He > was given a phone number he could use to submit articles by modem. He > wanted me to figure out how he could use it. All I remember is a > modem answered and connected, didn't send anything, and would echo > back whatever you typed. I knew it was some sort of computer at the > other end instead of just a modem echoing data because control-D would > cause it to hang up. I'd love to know what it was running on. Why my > dad never asked for real documentation, I don't know :) I suspect it was a quick and dirty setup whereby whatever was sent to the modem was printed out immediately. I don't think teleprinters echoed. Or did they? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 12:45:06 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:45:06 +0200 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <200704111612.MAA14434@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <200704111612.MAA14434@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070411174506.GM4343@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 12:08:48PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > It can indeed. I've run X on Suns with 16M. It's a little painful, > but usable. 32M is enough to be fully usable, I find. I run OpenBSD 3.8 (I might upgrade to 4.0 soon, unless something better comes out earlier than I do it :-) on my Sun Sparc Classic. I most of the time use it at the console and, when I use X, I run Ion as my window manager, of course. It works quite well, although I would really like a leaner, faster, more adequate for the hardware, but not stagnated (I've just learned this word from another email on this tread, so I like to use here noew :-). > I've written fairly minimalist versions of enough X clients that > everything on my screen comes from one of my own clients: terminal > emulator, clock, window manager, security front-end, picture > displayer.... That sounds really interesting. Are you distributing them some how? Are they included on some operating system or (Linux) distribution or something? Would you care to do so (make them available/distribute them/something on that line)? > It's also X11R6.4 patchlevel 3, not "modern" X. What about smallX (formerly tinyX)? Has somebody used/looked at it/made an opinion of it? What about of Microwindows? W? MGR? Cheers, Angel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 11 12:42:47 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:42:47 +0100 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <0b7d01c77c53$345e8d10$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <461D1E17.7080801@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2007 17:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/11/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Ethan, this is news to me. I work as an electronics' designer for >> years, >> never seen ANY kind of memory made to be piggybacked. > Hmm... this would be in a TI paper-bound book from, say, the > early-to-mid 1980s. I don't recall the exact part numbers, but it was > probably some variant of the 4164. I remember the specifically > because of seeing folks piggyback 16K and 64K DRAMs in other designs, > and having to do the "flying select" wire and thinking how cool it was > that chip makers solved the problem with a "standard" part. It wasn't that rare an idea. I'm sure I've seen Intel parts like that. Motorola did it with two types. The MCM6664 is a 64K DRAM with a refresh signal on pin 1, and the MCM6632 is the same chip with A7 acting as a chip select when /CAS is low. The data sheet says - Upward pin compatible from the 16K RAM MCM4416 [and 5V-only MCM4516/MCM4517] - one half of the 64K MCM6664 - the operating half of the MCM6632 is indicated by the device marking: MCM66320 tie A7 /CAS (A15) low MCM66321 tie A7 /CAS (A15) high In other words, the system's A0-A7 are used when RAS is active but CAS is not, and system's A8-A14 are used when CAS is active, at which time system A15 acts like a chip select. They did the same thing with MCM6633 (half of MCM6665, which is a similar chip but with no connection to pin 1). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 13:01:01 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: An odd terminal In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704111101i82b19e3kb0b78cb1063fd7a9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/07, Richard wrote: > Do you have an idea of the manufacturing date for this guy? I'm > guessing mid to late 70s or early 80s. This terminal doesn't have an > LCD screen (like the Random Colleague), which indicates it might be a Sadly this is the only piece of info I've found, of all places on one of those fake search engine pages: http://www.zoominfo.com/Industries/data-mgmt/information-document-management/terminals.htm "1981, Xitron introduces XPT (Xitron Portable Terminal) reporter's terminal." That text doesn't appear anywhere else in Google. They must have aggregated it from some now-defunct page. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 11 13:26:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <20070411174506.GM4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <200704111612.MAA14434@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411174506.GM4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <200704111838.OAA15767@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I've written fairly minimalist versions of enough X clients that >> everything on my screen comes from one of my own clients: terminal >> emulator, clock, window manager, security front-end, picture >> displayer.... > That sounds really interesting. Are you distributing them some how? Some - by intent, all - of them are up for anonymous ftp (that is to say, the ones that aren't are oversights on my part rather than a desire to not distribute them). ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/ is the directory. I just had a look, and I see only four of the relevant programs there (mclock, the clock; mterm, the terminal emulator; mwm, the window manager (named before I heard of Motif - the first m stands for Mouse); and xc, the security front-end). I clearly need to push a lot more stuff to the FTP area. Probably won't happen until after work today, though. > Are they included on some operating system or (Linux) distribution or > something? Not that I know of, though I suppose such a distro could exist and I've just not heard about it. (Probably not a popular distribution, though, or I would have heard from *someone*.) >> It's also X11R6.4 patchlevel 3, not "modern" X. > What about smallX (formerly tinyX)? Never tried it. Don't recall hearing of it before. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 13:49:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a scan doubler In-Reply-To: <37506.92411.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742473.46346.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> there was an extensive thread 2-4 months ago on this topic. It may not fulfill your deepest desires, but may help educate you on the subject. --- silvercreekvalley wrote: > Unfortunately - my monitor wont scan down to 15KHz > and > a > nice LCD monitor is out of the question (for the > moment > anyway). > > The one place I've seen scan doublers used in a > major > way seems to have been in the Amiga scene. I dont > mind > having to make up cables/adapters if anyone has > anything. > > Cheers > > Ian. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures > list. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 11 13:47:57 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, not >> 'nice to have' functionality. > I couldn't have though of a better way of saying it: 'have to have' > is exactly what I would love to see on an OS which I would use a lot. The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? For example... >> Just as long as we all agree NetHack stays. ...this is clearly a "have to have" for one of us - but definitely not for another (me). I consider FORTRAN support and S/Key totally junkable frills - but a C compiler is not optional. I'm sure there are those that disagree with each of those, and quite possibly some who disagree with all of them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 14:06:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Insanely stupid! Message-ID: <715976.74148.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I just want to take a moment to apologize for the comment that was made a day or two ago. It was not my intention to deride anyone of any particular background (and for that reason an apology isn't really necessary). Though I spend a good deal of time "deriding" my own heritage (and others!), I sometimes fail to understand that certain jests might not be appreciated. As such I here open myself up to any and all insults that any would deem appropriate, beginning with jokes about the Irish, Germans, and last but not least YUGOSLAVIANS! Do your worst knaves! :) I used to work with a Mexican guy, did the right thing, came here legally (also made a bundle, and bought a business for himself back in Mexico). I routinely would mimic his accent and manner of speech (what was so funny was how his pronunciation of Charmagne, the name of a Jamaican women who also worked with us, sounded like Chow Mein LOL LOL LOL. He never took any of it the wrong way though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 11 14:14:10 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:14:10 +0100 Subject: Emergency Moderation Mode off References: <008601c77b0d$a48b91b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <004c01c77c6d$9699a680$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi Jay, > I'm going to turn off the emergency moderation mode.... Have you turned emergency moderation mode back on, or is there a problem with the list? I ask as I've not received any mail from the list in nearly 18 hours (the last message I received was sent by "Dave Dunfield", subject "Re: floppy media failure" at 02:49), but I see some 40 odd new messages when accessing the list archives on the web.... TTFN - Pete. From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 14:18:09 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:18:09 +0200 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 02:47:57PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > >> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, not > >> 'nice to have' functionality. > > I couldn't have though of a better way of saying it: 'have to have' > > is exactly what I would love to see on an OS which I would use a lot. > > The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? For > example... Of course me :-) Seriously, that's why I said on another email on this tread that having an installer which would install a very minimal system (NetBSD?) but packages and/or ports would be available could be a good idea. We all might agree on things like the system should run (w/o X on 2MB RAM), for example, but some might want to run X and some not; or that the base system should not take more than (just to say something) 40MB of HDD, but some might have 80MB HDD and some 2GB HDD and might want to install an amount of software according to it; that vi should be the editor and mwm (m for Mouse, not for Motif ;-) the window manager per defauls, but some might want to use Vim ans Ion ;-) instead. No one is allowed to install/run/use/talk about KDE, of course. :-) > ...this is clearly a "have to have" for one of us - but definitely not > for another (me). I consider FORTRAN support and S/Key totally > junkable frills - but a C compiler is not optional. I'm sure there are > those that disagree with each of those, and quite possibly some who > disagree with all of them. Couldn't both of them, FORTRAN and a C compiler be optional packages/ports? many people (I for one, most probably) wouldn't need to run either (or any other compiler) on such a system, anyway. Cheers, A. -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 11 14:29:40 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:29:40 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200704111529.40338.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 April 2007 11:33, Ken Seefried wrote: > the whole subsystem out, so that's what's going to happen" or "SMP? > No. Just no.". There's several classic SMP machines that I would like to have a UNIX for; well, I guess the Purdue-recipe dual-VAX isn't really SMP, but it was still MP, and ran a modified BSD as designed. :) Likewise, I'd like to have a sane UNIX for my VAXstation "3560". There's no reason you couldn't have an SMP and a non-SMP kernel, even using #define's, which couldn't be reasonably small. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 11 14:35:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:35:21 +0100 Subject: Emergency Moderation Mode off References: <008601c77b0d$a48b91b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <004c01c77c6d$9699a680$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <001001c77c70$8bcd7df0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Have you turned emergency moderation mode back on, or is there >a problem with the list? Never mind, seems my mailserver had a brainstorm and was picking up mail from my ISP but not dishing it out to clients my network....Intel garbage.... :-( TTFN - Pete. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 14:35:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461AD045.8050706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Jim MacKenzie >You can still run Debian sarge (the second-last version; it was the most >current release until a few days ago) with a 2.2.20 >kernel. Even with a >2.4.x or 2.6.x kernel it isn't that bloated. It runs >fine on my 486sx25 >with 32 MB of RAM, and would run okay with 16MB. >I've always felt the BSD distributions are better if you want something >really bare and basic, though. >Jim I really don't think it's realistic to operate a modern computer w/a non-windowed environment these days. Many will disagree, and that's their prerogative, someone said something about eye-candy, but I think it comes down to cheating yourself of functionality. Additional resources are necessary of course, and if you're talking about a 486, you're going to want to trim as much as possible (you can't tell me Debian w/a gui will run on one). What most impressed me (and the diehards will call this all opinion) with the Unix boxes I had seen in the early-mid 90s was their ability to do windows, and do them right. Not for anything (man I hate that expression) but hasn't the version following sarge been out for 6+ months, and UIM it was based on the 2.6 kernel? Thought I even had it on DVD somewhere. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From jim at photojim.ca Wed Apr 11 15:12:47 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:12:47 -0600 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <038801c77c75$c6326dc0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:35 PM Subject: Re: *nix on "classic" systems > Not for anything (man I hate that expression) but > hasn't the version following sarge been out for 6+ > months, and UIM it was based on the 2.6 kernel? Etch has been in testing mode for awhile, but it was just released at the beginning of April. Jim From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 11 10:22:06 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:22:06 +0100 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: References: <30679360.1176297456005.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1176304926.6281.8.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 07:49 -0700, Roger Ivie wrote: > I have no documentation for this other than my own dodgy memory. This > was all many years ago. Early '80s, I think. Jay, can we have bad pun moderation on please? Gordon From marvin at west.net Wed Apr 11 10:27:59 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:27:59 -0700 Subject: Dec Alpha 6000/? Message-ID: <461CFE7F.50A0ADE7@west.net> Hi everyone, I saw a DEC alpha something or other at the UCSB central stores yesterday, but have no interest in it. Many of these machines are stripped of HDs and memory, but I didn't check it out except that I did see memory chips installed. I would guess that it would sell for about $25.00 or less. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 11 12:23:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:23:35 -0400 Subject: Underclocking m68k CPUs Message-ID: <0JGC009A6G82TS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Underclocking m68k CPUs > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:00:29 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/11/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> As subject... do 68k CPUs cope with being underclocked? I've got a surplus >> 8-MHz part from an Amiga, and at the museum we've got a 68000 microprocessor >> trainer which is short its CPU. I'm not sure what speed CPU the trainer >> expects though (because I haven't looked in any detail :-) but it'll certainly >> be 8Mhz or less. > >Section 10.7 of the Users Manual >(http://iteso.mx/~temoc/micros/MC68000UM.pdf) indicates that 4MHz is >the minimum clock speed for an 8MHz-rated part. I've seen 4MHz-badged >parts, but it was in a 4MHz trainer from about 1982. I don't know >where you'd find performance data on a part that old. Motorola databook would have it and they weren't rare either. I've run them down to 100khz, the timing of the signals moves a bit as at those slow speeds the propagation delay is not significant anymore relative to the cpu timing. I did that once with a 68k with apparent normal (and very slow) behavour. With rare expection most CPU underclock to the extreme and most will overclock by some. The exceptions are any of the 8080/8085/z80 and similar cpus that use dynamic memory cells and are NOT static. Though I've taken them to very low clock speeds as well though not to full stop. I'ts rare to see a data sheet specify a minimum clock that isn't very slow or at least the vendors testing minima. Allison From tony at elmswick.co.uk Wed Apr 11 15:09:53 2007 From: tony at elmswick.co.uk (Tony@elmswick.co.uk) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:09:53 +0100 Subject: Help needed: DEC Micorvax II printing Message-ID: <000501c77c75$6b6e3130$0901a8c0@Iapetus> I have just seen your message. Are you still having problems printing from your Microvax 2, if so how have you got your printer set up. Are you trying to print directly to the printer or have you set up a print queue. Regards Tony Brooke From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 15:37:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <038801c77c75$c6326dc0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <169667.87236.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > Etch has been in testing mode for awhile, but it was > just released at the > beginning of April. whoops you are right. Sarge followed woody. my mistake ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 11 15:43:24 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:43:24 -0500 Subject: GNT 4604 7102 3600 + Paper Tape supplies References: <461CF894.6040303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <005801c77c7a$0d69f290$6700a8c0@BILLING> Al wrote.... > Do you know of any sources for fan-fold paper tape instead of rolls? I don't want to get rid of all of mine.... but I do have 1 case of the dec fan-fold paper tape (a case is something like 15 or so cartons I think). If anyone is really desperate for a carton I could probably let go of one or two. Jay From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 15:47:29 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:47:29 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <038801c77c75$c6326dc0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <038801c77c75$c6326dc0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <20070411204729.GA29147@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 02:12:47PM -0600, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > >Not for anything (man I hate that expression) but > >hasn't the version following sarge been out for 6+ > >months, and UIM it was based on the 2.6 kernel? > > Etch has been in testing mode for awhile, but it was just released at the > beginning of April. Three days ago, actually. A. -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From ama at ugr.es Wed Apr 11 16:00:17 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:00:17 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <461AD045.8050706@philpem.me.uk> <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070411210017.GB29147@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 12:35:27PM -0700, Chris M wrote: > I really don't think it's realistic to operate a > modern computer w/a non-windowed environment these > days. Many will disagree, and that's their Of course many will disagree. I for one, use several boxes w/o a gui even installed on them. What about servers? What do you want a gui on a web server, an FTP server, a file server, a print server? But even for a workstation. What do I need a gui for reading mail (mutt), Unenet news (tin), IRC (irssi) or Jabber (centralicq), editing (Vim) and composing (LaTeX) documents or programming ? Even browsing I many times do with elinks. > prerogative, someone said something about eye-candy, I did. But I could go further, I not only don't need (nor I want) eye candy, but graphic acceleration, transparencies, or even menus, icons or applications bars, etc. > but I think it comes down to cheating yourself of > functionality. Additional resources are necessary of > course, and if you're talking about a 486, you're I was thinking more about a 386. For slower systems there is ELKS, which I would like to have in production on my 8086, 8088 and 286 boxes. A 486 is powerful enough as to ran Debian GNU/Linux or any of the BSD. In fact, one of mine is running OpenBSD with Apache and PostgreSQL for a small web server on a 486DX2-66 64MB RAM and 2x4GB HDD. > going to want to trim as much as possible (you can't > tell me Debian w/a gui will run on one). What most I've just told you :-) > impressed me (and the diehards will call this all > opinion) with the Unix boxes I had seen in the > early-mid 90s was their ability to do windows, and do > them right. Sure. They do it, and they do it very well. But even most impressive is the server/client nature of X. Why should i be forbidden to run, let say Iceweasel, or The Gimp, or whatever program I like to on a more powerful box, but display it on a Pentium 90 or 60, or even a 486 or a 386 as a lean X terminal if I can do so? > Not for anything (man I hate that expression) but > hasn't the version following sarge been out for 6+ > months, and UIM it was based on the 2.6 kernel? Is is Debian GNU/Linux 4.0, akaa Etch, released three days ago :-) > Thought I even had it on DVD somewhere. No wonder, I also had it a few months ago, while it was still the testing branch. :-) Cheers, Angel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Apr 11 16:07:24 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:07:24 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/11/07 9:35 PM, Chris M wrote: > I really don't think it's realistic to operate a modern computer w/a > non-windowed environment these days. Many will disagree, and that's their > prerogative, someone said something about eye-candy, but I think it comes down > to cheating yourself of functionality. You give up some functionality, gain other functionality. Like almost everything, a GUI is a trade-off. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Hofstadter's Law: Everything always takes longer than expected, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -- Joost van de Griek From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 16:16:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:16:43 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <21842DFA-78FF-4AA1-8C17-A646D17547E7@neurotica.com> On Apr 11, 2007, at 2:47 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, not >>> 'nice to have' functionality. >> I couldn't have though of a better way of saying it: 'have to have' >> is exactly what I would love to see on an OS which I would use a lot. > > The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? > For > example... > >>> Just as long as we all agree NetHack stays. > > ...this is clearly a "have to have" for one of us - but definitely not > for another (me). I consider FORTRAN support and S/Key totally > junkable frills - but a C compiler is not optional. I'm sure there > are > those that disagree with each of those, and quite possibly some who > disagree with all of them. This is an easy problem to solve. Resist the temptation to bundle non-OS software with the OS. Far too many people these days confuse OS vs. non-OS...and we get such stupidity as, for example, Solaris shipping with Postgres installed, whether you want Postgres or not. If I want Postgres (and I often do) I WILL INSTALL IT. It's a database server, it's not a part of the operating system. This is just an example, but you get the idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 16:19:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:19:16 -0400 Subject: Help needed: DEC Micorvax II printing In-Reply-To: <000501c77c75$6b6e3130$0901a8c0@Iapetus> References: <000501c77c75$6b6e3130$0901a8c0@Iapetus> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Tony at elmswick.co.uk wrote: > I have just seen your message. Are you still having problems > printing from your Microvax 2, if so how have you got your printer > set up. Are you trying to print directly to the printer or have you > set up a print queue. Someday I will tell my children of the long-lost days in which there was a cute little component of punctuation called the "question mark". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 16:20:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:20:34 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> On Apr 11, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Chris M wrote: >> You can still run Debian sarge (the second-last > version; it was the most >> current release until a few days ago) with a 2.2.20 >> kernel. Even with a >> 2.4.x or 2.6.x kernel it isn't that bloated. It runs >> fine on my 486sx25 >> with 32 MB of RAM, and would run okay with 16MB. > >> I've always felt the BSD distributions are better if > you want something >> really bare and basic, though. > >> Jim > > I really don't think it's realistic to operate a > modern computer w/a non-windowed environment these > days. Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't been in many datacenters. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 16:25:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:25:54 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <20070411174506.GM4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <200704111612.MAA14434@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411174506.GM4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > What about smallX (formerly tinyX)? Has somebody used/looked at > it/made an opinion of it? What about of Microwindows? W? MGR? Wow, MGR, I haven't heard of that in a while. I ran it for a bit on an AT&T 3B1 back in the 80's. It was tiny and very fast! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Wed Apr 11 16:31:46 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:31:46 +0200 Subject: GNT 4604 7102 3600 + Paper Tape supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461D53C2.8000209@hachti.de> Salut, > These are still manufactured in the UK for Worldwide use. Spares and > repairs are also available. GNT.....? What is "GN telematic" - written on my 4604? And doesn't GN stand for s.th. like "Great Northern"? Isn't / wasn't GNT originally a company from Scandinavia? > 1" wide industry standard paper tape rolls (and 5/8") are also available > in limited colours. Pricing and shipping to continental Europe? Btw, used and perfectly working GNT devices can easily be found... Regards, Philipp :-) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 11 16:37:13 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:37:13 +0100 Subject: Dec Alpha 6000/? In-Reply-To: <461CFE7F.50A0ADE7@west.net> Message-ID: On 11/4/07 16:27, "Marvin Johnston" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I saw a DEC alpha something or other at the UCSB central stores yesterday, but > have no interest in it. Many of these machines are stripped of HDs and memory, > but I didn't check it out except that I did see memory chips installed. I > would > guess that it would sell for about $25.00 or less. Hi Marvin, It won't be a 6000 since they didn't exist, VAXen yes, but not Alphas. Can you give us an idea of size and what it looked like? Ta :) (I'm on the wrong continent for rescue) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 15:55:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:55:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: from "stuart birchall" at Apr 10, 7 06:26:43 pm Message-ID: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQ > itemZ330107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > A Tatung Einstein??? Since when has a Z80-based machine been the first computer (or even the first home computer). For those across the Pond, I'll post some details of this machine. It came out in the early-mid 1980s, after the BBC Micro. It's basied round a Z80A, clocked at 4MHz. There's 64K of RAM, with a 16K ROM that can replace part of the RAM (if you see what I mean). This ROM contains a reasonable machine code monitor, but not a lot else. The video side is baed round the TMS9927 chip (that's a PAL version of the 9918) with its own 16K of RAM. Sound is an AY-3-8910 chip, the digital I/O ports of which are used to scan the keyboard (a plain matrix of switches). There's a built-in 3" (not 3.5") floppy drive with a WD chip (I think a 1170) to control it. And space for a second drive. There are a reaosnable number of standard interfaces. IIRC, there's a connector for 2 external floppy drives (standard 34 pin, Shugart SA400-like pinout).Aa 60 pin bus connctor called the 'Tatung Pipe' (the name is a pun on 'tube' which is what Acorn called the second processor interface connector on the Beeb, in turn 'Tube' is a pun on 'bus', both being public transport systems in London) is an expansion bus connector carrying the standard Z80 signals. There's a Z80-PIO on the board, one port of which is used as a Centronics printer interface, the other port is used as a user port (2 more conenctors on the machine). There's a 4-channel 8-bit ADC (ADC0844 IIRC), used for the Joystik ports (but which obviously has many other applications). An 8251 provides a serial port, buffered to RS232 levels, and brouhgt on on a 5 pin form C (quincuncial) DIN plug with a sane pinout (unlike the Beeb, on the Einstein, turning the plug round does the null-modem swap). This conenctor carries TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS and Ground, DSR and DTR are available on marked solder pads on the PCB. One odd thing is that the colour monitor connector can be set by internal links to be either RGB or YUV analogue video. There's also an RF modulator to drive a TV The standard OS was called XtalDOS and was very CP/M like (although IIRC, some of the commands were re-named). There were several versions of BASIC for the machine (including a 'BBC Basic') and other languages available on disk. It's not a bad machine, although it's somewhat let down by the video chip (there's no 80 column text mode, for example, although there was an add-on board to do this). But it's not worth what this person is asking IMHO -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 16:01:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:01:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <461BC59A.7427.4A0C5EDA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 10, 7 05:12:58 pm Message-ID: > > On 10 Apr 2007 at 22:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Have you tried just a new chip in place of a piggybacked module? I wonder > > if the new chips are actually 128K bits -- that is, they're really the 2 > > old chips of the pigyback on one die, in one package. If you piggybacked > > a new chip onto half an old pair, you'd end up with 2 chips 'in parallel' > > for half of the memory space, that might not matter (if you never read an > > un-wirtten-to location, there will be no contention becasue the same > > value will have been written to both chips) > > This reminds me of the early revs of the PC AT, which used (IIRC) > stacked 64K DRAMs (the bottom used a different select than the top Correct. I was getting most of my info from the PC/AT Techref, I assume the chips are much the same. > one, so that they could be just soldered pin-to-pin) to get a 128K > module. IIRC, (and I'll check the schematics if you need me to), it's the RAS/ pin that's seprate for the 2 chips in the piggyback. Later PC/AT mainboards took 41256 RAMs, but for some unknown reason IBM only arragned the board to take 18 of them (512K RAM), not 1M (or even 640K in a mix of 41256s and 4164s). That seemd crazy to me (the XT/286 board, of course, was a640K board, 2 off 256K SIMMs and 128K DRAM on the board itself (I forget what they used, it may well have been 4 off 50464s and 2 off 4164s or something)). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 16:06:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:06:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461C3209.4090709@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Apr 10, 7 08:55:37 pm Message-ID: > > Do the heads on older drives hover closer or farther from the data > surface than on newer drives? The higher the bit density, the lower the flying height of the heads. So in general, modern drives fly the heads a lot lower than old ones. I don;'t think you're going to get away with this on say, a 3.5" 80GByte drive :-). But those are not the drives we're discussing here. For the old 40MByte 5.25" units, etc, you will have a lot less problems. I'd not use a car eir filter either. But I think the sort of filter used in the demountable hard drives would be fine as an input filter on the clean box. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 16:36:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:36:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <0aeb01c77c44$6ffb50b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Apr 11, 7 11:19:23 am Message-ID: > > >>That's the first thing that puzzles me. It was my understanding that > >>these were 128Kbit chips, so 18 of them would give you 256K bytes (+ > >>parity) of memory. Can you confirm, please, that 18 of them really are > >>512K > >>> The top chips are stamped MCM66128L20; the bottom chips have no part > >>> number. > > Maybe the bottom chips are just EMI filters/pull ups??? :oO > > There are NO possibilities that memory can be piggybacked this way. When > you piggyback two memory chips, at least ONE of the pins must be routed > separately. At least this is what logic tells me. Of course. The thing is, a normal 64K DRAM chip -- a 4164, for example -- has 15 connections used. That's 8 address lines (multiplexed address, of course), data in, dara out, RAS/, CAS/, WE/, +5v, ground. That chip comes in a 16 pin DIL pacakge with one pin not used. It is my belief that in thses piggybacked modules, each package contains a 64K DRAM die, but the pinout of the 2 DIL packages in the piggyback is slightly differnt. One pin is not-used on one device and RAS/ (I think) on the other. And they're the opposite way round on the other package. So when they're piggybacked, you end up with effectively 2 64K chips, with common connections for everything but RAS/, which is separate for the 2 chips. That's hwo you can select one chip and not the other. > I never seen a 128K *D*ram chip. SRAM exists. This is something that is I've seen an module with 2 surface-mount ceramic pacakges on top. It was used in one version of the PERQ memory board. Again, much the same idea as regards selectign the 2 devices. I've never seen half-good 256K DRAMs :-). There were some 32K DRAMs which were hald-good 64K chips, though. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 17:00:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070411145947.V68787@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, stuart birchall wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273 Wow. There are lots of differences of opinion about which one was first. But this is the first time that I've seen a machine with 3" drives being touted as the first! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 17:02:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070411210017.GB29147@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <265968.95811.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 12:35:27PM -0700, Chris M > wrote: > > > I really don't think it's realistic to operate a > > modern computer w/a non-windowed environment these > > days. Many will disagree, and that's their > > Of course many will disagree. I for one, use > several boxes w/o a gui > even installed on them. What about servers? What > do you want a gui on > a web server, an FTP server, a file server, a print > server? True. Little need for a gui depending on what the "computer" is being used for. It goes w/o saying that my use of the word denoted a workstation. > But even for a workstation. What do I need a gui > for reading mail > (mutt), Unenet news (tin), IRC (irssi) or Jabber > (centralicq), > editing (Vim) and composing (LaTeX) documents or > programming ? Even > browsing I many times do with elinks. Otay panky. Have it your way. LOL LOL > > prerogative, someone said something about > eye-candy, > > I did. But I could go further, I not only don't > need (nor I want) eye > candy, but graphic acceleration, transparencies, or > even menus, icons > or applications bars, etc. Ok, I respect your opinion. As long as you do mine. > > but I think it comes down to cheating yourself of > > functionality. Additional resources are necessary > of > > course, and if you're talking about a 486, you're > > I was thinking more about a 386. For slower systems > there is ELKS, > which I would like to have in production on my 8086, > 8088 and 286 > boxes. A 486 is powerful enough as to ran Debian > GNU/Linux or any of > the BSD. In fact, one of mine is running OpenBSD > with Apache and > PostgreSQL for a small web server on a 486DX2-66 > 64MB RAM and 2x4GB HDD. Forget about ELKS. What about XENIX! YAAAAAAAAAA!!!! (I think we're way off topic by the way). > > going to want to trim as much as possible (you > can't > > tell me Debian w/a gui will run on one). What most > > I've just told you :-) You didn't need to. It was simply my point. I had an instructor who HATED anything MS$, but who preached Linux w/a religious fervor. ALL YA NEED IS THAT OLD 486! Ok, fine, but if you want to run a respectable windowing OS, you'll going to need some more power. Before ever even touching a Linux cd I figured that must have been the case. > > impressed me (and the diehards will call this all > > opinion) with the Unix boxes I had seen in the > > early-mid 90s was their ability to do windows, and > do > > them right. > > Sure. They do it, and they do it very well. But > even most impressive > is the server/client nature of X. Why should i be > forbidden to run, > let say Iceweasel, or The Gimp, or whatever program > I like to on a more > powerful box, but display it on a Pentium 90 or 60, > or even a 486 or a > 386 as a lean X terminal if I can do so? You are not forbidden. You officially have my blessing :) > > Not for anything (man I hate that expression) but > > hasn't the version following sarge been out for 6+ > > months, and UIM it was based on the 2.6 kernel? > > Is is Debian GNU/Linux 4.0, akaa Etch, released > three days ago :-) > > > Thought I even had it on DVD somewhere. > > No wonder, I also had it a few months ago, while it > was still the > testing branch. :-) I goofed. I was referring to sarge, which, correct me if I'm wrong (again) is based on the 2.6 kernel. I made a mistake and I said so. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 17:04:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:04:42 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2007 at 23:07, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 4/11/07 9:35 PM, Chris M wrote: > > > I really don't think it's realistic to operate a modern computer w/a > > non-windowed environment these days. Many will disagree, and that's their > > prerogative, someone said something about eye-candy, but I think it comes down > > to cheating yourself of functionality. > > You give up some functionality, gain other functionality. Like almost > everything, a GUI is a trade-off. Excuse me, but we're talking about two different things, aren't we? Or is my age showing again? Unless I've got my wires crossed (again), "windowing" and "GUI" have very little to do with another. That is, you can have text-mode winodws and windowless graphics, no? So what's meant here? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 17:05:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461C7700.5090503@oldskool.org> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> <461C7700.5090503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070411150349.D68787@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > While we can joke about how this is clearly not WORDS FIRST HOME > COMPUTER, this is a pretty rare find, including the box and some carts. Those are not "carts". They are 3" diskettes. CF2, for flippy use in single head drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 17:06:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <6d6501090704102308v4fc5c3d7t4b520b87456c8eab@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> <6d6501090704102308v4fc5c3d7t4b520b87456c8eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070411150553.G68787@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Chris Halarewich wrote: > I doubt it was the first home computer, from wikipedia Oh, ye of little faith. The guy from the future who was looking for the 5100 took one of those back in time to around 1066. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Apr 11 17:09:43 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:09:43 +0100 Subject: m68k Mirage system In-Reply-To: <461CAED4.1030503@yahoo.co.uk> References: <461CAED4.1030503@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461D5CA7.1060904@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Does this mean anything to anyone? It rings a few distant bells with me, > but I can't for the life of me think what system it is There was a 68000 operating system called Mirage, and it was used by INMOS for some of the transputer development work. I think it may have been the host OS for the transputer development system (TDS) at one point. I had a manual for it, but I can't remember whether I still have it or whether I've already sent it to you at Bletchley Park! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 17:20:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <709521.51023.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > > I really don't think it's realistic to operate a > > modern computer w/a non-windowed environment these > > days. > > Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement > that you haven't > been in many datacenters. > > -Dave no, but frankly it's irrelevant. Datacenters w/all their computing power comprise an utter minute fragment of the earth's total computing power. Some would rather not utilize a gui, and in some instances it's better not to, no argument. It's not that there aren't instances where you shouldn't make use of one, just that it's practical these days to do so. You wouldn't want to have little Johnny remembering scores of arcane cryptic commands just to run StickyBears, would you? (is StickyBears still around even LOL LOL). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 17:23:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX PCs was Re: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <888504.48435.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 11, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Angel Martin Alganza > wrote: > > What about smallX (formerly tinyX)? Has somebody > used/looked at > > it/made an opinion of it? What about of > Microwindows? W? MGR? > > Wow, MGR, I haven't heard of that in a while. I > ran it for a bit > on an AT&T 3B1 back in the 80's. It was tiny and > very fast! > > -Dave I have a feeling this thread has existed already, but searching the archives rendered no hits. What should be considered the first UNIX PC? Now there is some form of UNIX available for just about everything (even vintage ports), but what computer was made run UNIX from the getgo? And please let's not get into exhaustive definitions of UNIX, although frankly that might add delightfully to the conversation. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 17:53:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:53:17 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: References: <461C3209.4090709@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Apr 10, 7 08:55:37 pm, Message-ID: <461D046D.5693.4EE9C8FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2007 at 22:06, Tony Duell wrote: > I'd not use a car eir filter either. But I think the sort of filter used > in the demountable hard drives would be fine as an input filter on the > clean box. Most modern vacuum cleaners (yes, even the Hoovers) are equipped with HEPA filters on the exhaust side, particularly the "bagless" ones. So they're not particularly difficult to find as replacement items. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 17:57:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > A Tatung Einstein??? > > Since when has a Z80-based machine been the first > computer (or even the > first home computer). Ok so the dude is a sheister. What should then be known as the first home computer? Funny, I haven't the wherewithal to even make a guess at this particular moment. It's an interesting looking unit though. I've heard of it already of course, but frankly I don't recall ever seeing one (a picture that is). According to (http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=86 it is very near an MSX style of computer, but incompatible with such. I'm guessing the Sony SMC-70 series is also very near, though likely not as near as ths one. I often wonder what it would take to turn it MSX, and if anyone across the pond busies themself with such activity... > 64K of RAM, with a 16K > ROM that can replace part of the RAM swap in or out IOWs? > There's a built-in 3" (not 3.5") floppy drive with a > WD chip (I think a > 1170) to control it. And space for a second drive. It will drive a 3.5" floppy as b:, wondering if it can do it as the a: drive also. > 'Tube' is a > pun on 'bus', both > being public transport systems in London) I was under the impression Tube was a reference to a subway (undeground railway). Ah well... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 18:20:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <173572.12283.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Excuse me, but we're talking about two different > things, aren't we? > Or is my age showing again? > > Unless I've got my wires crossed (again), > "windowing" and "GUI" have > very little to do with another. That is, you can > have text-mode > winodws and windowless graphics, no? > > So what's meant here? essentially what we've come to know as a graphically oriented/windowed environment. That's what I was talking about anyhoo... ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 18:49:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:49:24 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 11, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> You can still run Debian sarge (the second-last >> version; it was the most >>> current release until a few days ago) with a 2.2.20 >>> kernel. Even with a >>> 2.4.x or 2.6.x kernel it isn't that bloated. It runs >>> fine on my 486sx25 >>> with 32 MB of RAM, and would run okay with 16MB. >> >>> I've always felt the BSD distributions are better if >> you want something >>> really bare and basic, though. >> >>> Jim >> >> I really don't think it's realistic to operate a >> modern computer w/a non-windowed environment these >> days. > > Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't been > in many datacenters. Or used a mainframe. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 11 18:19:58 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 00:19:58 +0100 Subject: MCM66128L20 References: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <461CAB36.25127.4D8D4339@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > A "cheap and dirty" memory epansion for the Atari 540ST was.... Here in Europe we had the "520" and the "1040" (and later Mega 1 & Mega 2), did Atari market them under slightly different names in the US, IE "540ST"? > The "half good" memory dates back long before 256K chips--it goes >all the way back to 16K ones.... I believe (though have not verified it myself since I utterly despise the machines) that Sinclair used this technique in the early Spectrums; they, apparently, simply disabled the faulty half of the DRAMs using jumpers on the board. TTFN - Pete. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 11 19:10:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help needed: DEC Micorvax II printing In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Apr 11, 7 05:19:16 pm" Message-ID: <200704120010.l3C0AoQl011876@floodgap.com> > > I have just seen your message. Are you still having problems > > printing from your Microvax 2, if so how have you got your printer > > set up. Are you trying to print directly to the printer or have you > > set up a print queue. > > Someday I will tell my children of the long-lost days in which > there was a cute little component of punctuation called the "question > mark". What's that. Is it terminal! -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Athiest: Someone who doesn't believe in spell checkers. -------------------- From ygehrich at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 19:16:30 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:16:30 -0400 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <20070411145947.V68787@shell.lmi.net> References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> <20070411145947.V68787@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070411201558.047d7400@yahoo.com> At 06:00 PM 4/11/2007 Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, stuart birchall wrote: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330107739273 > >Wow. >There are lots of differences of opinion about which one was first. >But this is the first time that I've seen a machine with 3" drives being >touted as the first! His claims make sense if you look at his recent feedback. Three negs in the last 10 days From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 11 19:21:21 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <21842DFA-78FF-4AA1-8C17-A646D17547E7@neurotica.com> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <21842DFA-78FF-4AA1-8C17-A646D17547E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200704120023.UAA18575@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, >>>> not 'nice to have' functionality. >> The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? > This is an easy problem to solve. Resist the temptation to bundle > non-OS software with the OS. That doesn't really solve anything; all it does is shift the debates to the question of what counts as part of the OS. For exmaple, I consider a C compiler part of the OS. Others will doubtless disagree. Some would consider perl part of the OS; I don't. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 11 19:23:43 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200704120024.UAA18588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Unless I've got my wires crossed (again), "windowing" and "GUI" have > very little to do with another. That is, you can have text-mode > winodws and windowless graphics, no? My take on it - In principle, you're right. In practice, you're wrong. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jam at magic.com Wed Apr 11 19:33:06 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX PCs was Re: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on Message-ID: <200704120033.RAA06083@mist.magic.com> > I have a feeling this thread has existed already, but > searching the archives rendered no hits. What should > be considered the first UNIX PC? Now there is some > form of UNIX available for just about everything (even > vintage ports), but what computer was made run UNIX > from the getgo? And please let's not get into > exhaustive definitions of UNIX, although frankly that > might add delightfully to the conversation. I did much of the port of V7 UNIX for the Fortune Systems 32:16 computer in 1981. It was a 6 MHz 68000 (not 68010!) designed specifically to run the UNIX operating system with business applications on top of it. It could run with 256KB of memory and two floppies (although it was really a lot more useful with a 5MB hard drive). That was the sole operating system intended for it. The 68000 did not have proper instruction restart after taking a trap, so we had to do some tricks to support traps due to stack growth. It had a real (and simple) MMU that supported text, data/bss, stack, and u_page, all built using MSI TTL and maybe a PAL -- no LSI MMU. The box was still rock solid when I last had it powered on, probably about 10 years ago. Mine is maxed out with 1MB of memory and four 68MB disk drives (if I am recalling the max supported disk size correctly). James Markevitch From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Apr 11 19:41:05 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:41:05 -0700 Subject: MCM66128L20 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C51C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: The "half good" memory dates back long before 256K chips--it goes all the way back to 16K ones. I've got a batch of Intel 2109s that differ from each other by a suffix -1 or -2. The idea is that the suffix indicates which half is good; otherwise the chips are electrically the same. I remember when the local Intel sales guy dropped off a bag of the things on my desk and I sorted through them and found a batch where all 16K worked in my application. Cheers, Chuck ------ Billy: Actually it goes back further than that. Intersil offered the 6002 (a 2K Dynamic RAM) with options of 1K good. I never saw it on smaller chips like the 256 byte or the 1K. But it would not surprise me. This was the era when a new state of the art memory chip was $15-20 each and in very short supply. A half good part could be very useful in a terminal or small system. By small, I mean 4K or 8K bytes, typical of many memory boards available in the early 1970's. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 19:41:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461D046D.5693.4EE9C8FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <941870.72050.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> some thoughts: for convenience (i.e comfort) perhaps a circular/tubular "box" isn't such a bad idea, but higher at the rear then towards the operator, then secure a plexiglass top. The stuff they sell at Home Depot goes by a different name, and it escapes me at the moment. Comes in sheets of different sizes. Holes placed at convenient spots in the sides/front of the tube as glove-holes. If I have the proper understanding, you'd have an inlet (for the gas supply) and outlet. Therefore the pressure of the entering gas would have to be sufficiently higher then the ability of gas to escape through the outlet. How would you control this? By using a smaller outlet then the inlet? Oi do I make any sense? In any event it seems you'd have to utilize filters for both ports. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 11 19:48:18 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:48:18 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! References: <200704101548.l3AFmkQ0013352@floodgap.com> <461BC1E6.4010500@oldskool.org> <461C7700.5090503@oldskool.org> <461CADE4.1020406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <009301c77c9c$447725b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Hmm, we did have a couple - that's not a gloat, just that I'd never >considered that they might be *that* rare. They're not in my experience. I used to go to lots of radio rallies and during the 90's they were pretty common, a boxed pristine example would usually go for about ?30 - ?40, depending on what bits an pieces were included. But ?3000!!?? That's sheer madness, the seller isn't that shyster "Jonathan Thompson" by any chance? TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 20:58:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:58:16 -0700 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461D2FC8.20583.4F932213@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 0:19, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > A "cheap and dirty" memory epansion for the Atari 540ST was.... > > Here in Europe we had the "520" and the "1040" (and later Mega 1 & Mega 2), > did Atari market them under slightly different names in the US, IE "540ST"? Nope, just a picked of bits in the ol' noggin. 520 and 1040. I should remember that now that tax time approacheth. :-) (The base Federal income tax form in the USA is known as a "Form 1040" and is dreaded and despised by all). Let's see, I have seven wives, all over 65 and blind, that's 21 deductions... When the 16K DRAMs were first coming out, there was a serious shortage of them for a time (yields were very low), so the "half good" parts were better than nothing. The moment the manufacturers got 16Ks popping out at a reasonable yield rate, the "half goods" disappeared like a bad dream. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 11 21:06:56 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:06:56 -0400 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 April 2007 18:57, Chris M wrote: > Ok so the dude is a sheister. What should then be > known as the first home computer? Funny, I haven't the > wherewithal to even make a guess at this particular > moment. As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home computer". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 11 21:13:44 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:13:44 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 April 2007 19:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't > > been in many datacenters. > > Or used a mainframe. One particularly twisted individual could run a UNIXy OS on a mainframe, have a VNC X-windows server running as a process, and use that to host a KDE/GNOME session. Less twisted individuals may point out that IBM has sold graphical terminals that are attached to mainframes (such as my 3279-S3G or older ones that aren't 3270 devices) long before any GUI from the likes of Microsoft or Apple has been around. Granted, most mainframes don't have GUIs (though a lot of people seem to be pushing "web interfaces" for everything which are 1000x worse), but it's not impossible... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 11 21:22:18 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:22:18 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <461D97DA.9040801@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 11 April 2007 18:57, Chris M wrote: > >> Ok so the dude is a sheister. What should then be >>known as the first home computer? Funny, I haven't the >>wherewithal to even make a guess at this particular >>moment. > > > As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > computer". Please do not feed the troll. Doc From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Apr 11 21:28:04 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:28:04 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: <461C0147.1070508@bellatlantic.net> References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com><006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING><143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C0147.1070508@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <461D9934.1010305@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: > You have to use the LD driver. Myself I use a smaller drive as 32mb for > RT-11 is a very roomy disk. A Quantum D540(rd52) at 32mb is perfect, > they > are also cooler and far more reliable. Another good choice is an St225 > (rd31) at 20mb it's still large for a RT-11 system. Jerome Fine replies: I think you are confusing the use of the LDX.SYS logical device driver along with dividing the 32 MB hard drive partitions into files, each of which have their own RT-11 directory, and the DUX.SYS device driver which has about 159 MB or about 5 RT-11 partitions. I agree that 65535 blocks for an RT-11 device is usually far too large for a single RT-11 directory when the maximum number of files is about 2000 files per RT-11 directory in any case. BUT, using LDX.SYS is very separate, in my opinion, from how DUX.SYS divides the RD54 into 5 RT-11 partitions. Of course, if you have a 2 GB hard drive (or SIMH with a file) which can hold 64 RT-11 partitions, then starting with V05.05 of RT-11, extended DU(X).SYS allowed 64 RT-11 partitions to be available at the SAME time. And if you have a hard drive or a file of 8 GB, then 256 RT-11 partitions are available in total via the: SET DUn: UNIT=u, PART=255 except that a maximum of only 8 RT-11 partitions can be specified in each DU(X).SYS device driver at one time with V05.03 of RT-11. I doubt VERY much that anyone is interested in a larger number of RT-11 partitions per DU(X).SYS device driver, but it would be fairly easy to allow up to 65536 RT-11 partitions for each unit, just not all at the same time. At the moment, the 2 word internal table allows 16 bits for the UNIT, 8 bits for the PART and 8 bits for the PORT (physical controller or host adapter). Since I have never EVER seen a UNIT of larger than 255 used, the switch between UNIT and PART would be easy, especially since a value of n > 255 is not allowed in the SET command in any case. >> You should be able to find what you are looking for in the RT-11 docs >> for versions of RT-11 > V05.04, at least. Dunno about < V05.04 >> -ethan > Starting with V05.03 of RT-11, DU(X).SYS allowed a large hard disk drive (> 32MB) to be divided into 32 MB RT-11 partitions, or more specifically, for the portions of the hard drive beyond 32 MB to be accessed as RT-11 partitions. The MSCP DU(X).SYS device driver first became available (with a few bugs that were fixed by V05.03 of RT-11) with V05.00 of RT-11 in 1983. V05.03 of RT-11 was released in 1985. LD(X).SYS was released with V05.00 in 1983. It was an integrated device driver (with RT-11) of a DECUS device driver that had been available for many years. I suppose that DEC finally realized that if DECUS people could do the code, then DEC had better do the integrated job when V05.00 was released. Since V04.00 did not know when physical devices were being used, if the hard drive files were "SQUEEZED", especially on the system device, all of the pointers had to be reset to the logical devices. Not a difficult coding problem, but changes were required in V05.00 to allow for LD(X).SYS to function correctly. In general, LD(X).SYS provided RT-11 with a set of sub-directories. What is still missing from RT-11 is what VMS has called Logical Name List - or what I suggest in RT-11 be called the Symbolic Translation device driver with a name of ST(X).SYS which would allow what DOS calls a PATH NAME list. However, ST(X).SYS would apply to ALL EXISTING files being opened via the .LookUp EMT and the user would be allowed to specify up to 16 physical devices for each unit in the Symbolic Translation device driver, i.e. ST3: => DU0:, DU1:, LD0:, LD1:, etc. SET ST3: DEVICEA=DU0 SET ST3: DEVICEB=DU1 SET ST3: DEVICEC=LD0 SET ST3: DEVICED=LD1 A .LookUp EMT request for ST3:FOOBAR.TST would check all of the specified physical device names in the order specified before returning a File Not Found error. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Apr 11 21:29:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:29:06 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <0JGA00BPT66PDW46@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGA00BPT66PDW46@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <461D9972.4010502@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >One last item The RD53 and RD54 drives run hot (around 35W) and lots of >cooling was one way to insure they lasted longer. Heat is the enemy >of those older drives and it is not unusual to find a system there the >fans were dead or clogged and the drives failed.. > Jerome Fine replies: Heat is the enemy of every drive, some more than others. Most current 3.5" multi-GB drives generate so little internal heat that it is not a problem. Whereas, with any of my 5 1/4" ESDI drives, and ESPECIALLY my Hitachi 600 MB FULL HEIGHT drives, I used to stack them 3 high (with a DC600A tape plastic case in-between to prevent contact - just seemed to be best and I had a lot of spare tapes) with a fan just an inch away used to cool them. In addition, I used a PC power supply for all of the hard drives and the fan rather than using the power supply from the BA123 box. This seems to provide a longer life for the BA123. However, by trial and error (well mostly error), I found that the TK50 and the TK70 tape drives MUST be powered directly from the BA123. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Apr 11 21:31:03 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:31:03 -0400 Subject: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system In-Reply-To: <0JGA00GLFGDOD689@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGA00GLFGDOD689@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <461D99E7.5030305@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >To boot a floppy under RT-11 is fairly easy. You will need a bootable >disk, That is a copy of RT-11 with the bootdevice you plan to use configured. >It also must have the hard disk driver as well and basic utilities. RT-11 >fits on small devices (even tu58 256kB). > >FYI: an option is to use TU-58 emulator on a PC and a serial line to >a PDP-11 as a fairly straight forward way to get stuff on a an -11 >with blank media. At the extreme the DD boot can be hand entered >into uODT as its something like 30 words long. I know I used to boot >a romless 11/23 that way. > Jerome Fine replies: David has an RX33 drive which can use HD 1.2 MB floppies from a PC. They each hold 2400 blocks, so the TU-58 is not really needed. A TU-58 certainly can't hurt, but if it takes any time to set up, the RX33 is already working. Also, the TU-58 takes more time to boot that manually entering in the boot program (well not the emulated TU-58 since that runs as fast as the PC behind it and the file on the hard disk of the PC)!. But I once had a project that used a real DEC TU-58. Not the fastest "random" access device!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 11 22:30:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:30:15 -0600 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <461DA7C7.3090404@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > computer". I have yet to see a real HOME computer. Most game boxes I have seen - Coco, C-64 ect. where marketed as home computers but what do you need a home computer for? > Pat From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 11 21:32:15 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 03:32:15 +0100 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Couldn't both of them, FORTRAN and a C compiler be optional >packages/ports? While I agree that a FORTRAN compiler could be optional, how exactly do you expect to get any useful (or in fact *ANY*) software installed without access to a "C" compiler? Since we're talking about a non-mainstream, minimalist distribution, it's unlikely in the extreme that any particular package you want would be available as a binary distribution.... It's for this very reason that, back in the late 80's, "Minix" was utterly useless as anything more than an educational tool/curiosity! Much though I hate the language, a "C" compiler is most definitely *NON* optional. TTFN - Pete. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 21:35:32 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:35:32 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704120024.UAA18588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com> <200704120024.UAA18588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704111935u26917286u7c227249a3d332ee@mail.gmail.com> On 11/04/07, der Mouse wrote: > > Unless I've got my wires crossed (again), "windowing" and "GUI" have > > very little to do with another. That is, you can have text-mode > > winodws and windowless graphics, no? > > My take on it - > > In principle, you're right. > In practice, you're wrong. I think I have to go with Chuck (assuming he is the poster of the first quotation). At least for home computers both text-mode windows and graphical computers with text interface a plenty: The latter encompasses every 8-bit of the home computer wars; for my C64 I had many application programs that were graphical in nature (pre-GEOS of course). The former is admittedly more rare - but I think one has to allow programs such as Norton Commander and WP5 that had multiple somewhat independant text areas. And not to forget the plethora of TSRs that could throw up dialog boxes on the PC's text screen... Joe. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Apr 11 21:40:58 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:40:58 -0500 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <200702211350.l1LDonvH028085@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702181038.l1IAcZkg009830@hosting.monisys.ca> <200702211350.l1LDonvH028085@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <461D9C3A.6080405@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote (in reply to me): >> Continuing my story of trying to recover the contents of the hard drive >> in my Horizon 8/16 system, I took Dave Dunfield's advice and wrote a >> small program to read each sector from the hard drive and dump it. 30 >> MB of disk data at 9600 baud, printed as ASCII hex. It took a while. >> >> The mystery remains -- what is it? >> >> There is no plain-text to be found anywhere ... not even accidental >> sequences. I thought that perhaps it is a lot of binary data. Some of >> it must be code. Searching the hex for "CD0500" (which is "CALL 0005", >> the CP/M call vector) has no hits. > > I agree with Chuck ... this is probably as test pattern. Lee Davison studied the pattern and showed pretty clearly it was a mostly repetitive pattern, other than track/sector counters. ... > Dave > > PS: Thanks for the N* TurboDos images, I've just put them up on the site, > along with several other N* images that I have had pending. Once it was determined that the disk had nothing useful, I booted HDOS from a floppy, reformatted the drive, then went through the turbodos install procedure. It installed with no hitches, and now I have a multiprocessor Z80 machine with a 30 MB hard drive. The install disks I used were the same ones I imaged and sent to you, Dave, so now we know they are good. I have no real use for this machine and no ideas for tinkering with it, so for now it will go back on the shelf until I think of some project that is interesting enough to displace other projects I have in the pipeline. One project is to take my IMS 5000 system, hook up a logic analyzer to the disk controller, and recover the login/password pairs from the disk. This system uses Turbodos too, and from reading the NS turbodos manual, I can confirm what someone else recalled, which is that this information is stored as plaintext in a simple file. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 21:43:57 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:43:57 -0400 Subject: Apple IIc on Craig's in Montreal Message-ID: <4affc5e0704111943g479d85c5ta079e531dd1bbe89@mail.gmail.com> I have no connection to the seller other than living in the same city - and I don't collect Apple ][ computers, but I figured someone here might appreciate the heads-up. Looks like a IIc: http://montreal.craigslist.org/sys/309660731.html Though I am tempted to ask how much he wants just to play with it for a few days and then pass it on to someone else... but I have other things to keep me occupied (1581! Yay!) and I know nothing about Apple 8-bits... Joe. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 21:49:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:49:25 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704120024.UAA18588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com>, <200704120024.UAA18588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <461D3BC5.26760.4FC1F3A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2007 at 20:23, der Mouse wrote: > My take on it - > > In principle, you're right. > > In practice, you're wrong. So you're saying that I'm not getting any useful work done with my copy of (text windowing) IDA disassembler and that I accomplished absolutely nothing with my old copies of Orcad and Schema SDT (nonwindowing graphics)? Uh, okay. Whatever you say... Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 21:54:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:54:03 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 11 April 2007 19:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't >>> been in many datacenters. >> Or used a mainframe. > > One particularly twisted individual could run a UNIXy OS on a mainframe, > have a VNC X-windows server running as a process, and use that to host a > KDE/GNOME session. That kind of person would be me. I've done that kind of twisted stuff, like running OpenGL Quake on my mainframe, but that's *far* from normal. > Less twisted individuals may point out that IBM has sold graphical > terminals that are attached to mainframes (such as my 3279-S3G or older > ones that aren't 3270 devices) long before any GUI from the likes of > Microsoft or Apple has been around. I would point out that many (most?) graphical consoles on mainframes aren't used to display GUIs. Although, by some stretch of an imagination, a CAD drawing could, I suppose, be considered a GUI. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 21:54:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:54:24 -0500 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) Message-ID: On 4/11/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > But I once had a project that > used a real DEC TU-58. Not the fastest "random" > access device!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They work better as "sequential" access devices - being long and thin and travelling in one dimension, go figure. We used to optimize file order on our console TU58s to speed up the boot times on our 11/725s and 11/730s. Since the file order doesn't change, one just builds a TU58 with EXCHANGE with each file following the other. The console's 8-bit-micro must cache the directory block, since the tape didn't whip back to the start between each file. Using unaltered console tapes from DEC resulted in, IIRC, about 15 minutes from turning the key to booting the hard disk. Replacing that tape with one of our own devising shortened that pre-boot time to well under 3 minutes. I'd hate to rely on a TU-58 and no other block-addressable media on a PDP-11, though. I survived a PDP-8 with a TD8E and TU56, but it was somewhat tedious (cool to watch, though). TU-58s weren't as cool, IMHO. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 11 22:20:23 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:20:23 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704112320.23808.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 April 2007 22:54, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 11 April 2007 19:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't > >>> been in many datacenters. > >> > >> Or used a mainframe. > > > > One particularly twisted individual could run a UNIXy OS on a > > mainframe, have a VNC X-windows server running as a process, and use > > that to host a KDE/GNOME session. > > That kind of person would be me. I've done that kind of twisted > stuff, like running OpenGL Quake on my mainframe, but that's *far* > from normal. It's also something I might do, just to have done once. :) > > Less twisted individuals may point out that IBM has sold graphical > > terminals that are attached to mainframes (such as my 3279-S3G or > > older ones that aren't 3270 devices) long before any GUI from the > > likes of Microsoft or Apple has been around. > > I would point out that many (most?) graphical consoles on mainframes > aren't used to display GUIs. Although, by some stretch of an > imagination, a CAD drawing could, I suppose, be considered a GUI. I'd argue that any CAD program that has its UI on the Graphical display is a GUI by definition. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 11 22:24:05 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:24:05 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <461DA655.4040000@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Wednesday 11 April 2007 19:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't >>>> been in many datacenters. >>> >>> Or used a mainframe. >> >> >> One particularly twisted individual could run a UNIXy OS on a >> mainframe, have a VNC X-windows server running as a process, and use >> that to host a KDE/GNOME session. > > > That kind of person would be me. I've done that kind of twisted stuff, > like running OpenGL Quake on my mainframe, but that's *far* from normal. You know that Quake runs native, full 3D, on AIX v4.3.x, right? Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 22:24:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:24:33 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00CECD53-7564-4B1A-A669-6E6DA8A302DB@neurotica.com> On Apr 11, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'd hate to rely on a TU-58 and no other block-addressable media on a > PDP-11, though. I survived a PDP-8 with a TD8E and TU56, but it was > somewhat tedious (cool to watch, though). TU-58s weren't as cool, > IMHO. A PDP-8/TU56 combo really is tough to beat for coolness factor. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 22:58:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:58:14 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461DA655.4040000@mdrconsult.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> <461DA655.4040000@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <461DAE56.5070802@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: >> That kind of person would be me. I've done that kind of twisted >> stuff, like running OpenGL Quake on my mainframe, but that's *far* >> from normal. > > You know that Quake runs native, full 3D, on AIX v4.3.x, right? Really. Cool! It took some doing for me to get it to compile on Linux/390. I can only imagine what someone had to do to get it to work in something as different from Linux as AIX 4.3. Peace... Sridhar From john at kourafas.com Wed Apr 11 22:58:35 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:58:35 -0400 Subject: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 80186 Pics References: <4616C3CE.4020209@bitsavers.org> <4616F967.3010500@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <01a101c77cb6$d87273e0$cac8a8c0@jkccng41> http://www.kourafas.com/taccs/insides Pictures of the insides of the Convergent Technologies TACCS system I have.. UNISYS sticker on Case & Monitor I took 8 removable boards out of the unit and the HD/FD/TD and removed the cage out of the case. There are 5 "mother boards" connected side by side. 1.) CPU Mother ( I/O , Memory, CPU, Video modules insert to this one) Also has 3 50pin connections, SCSI? (none used) I/O., 1MB Memory, R80186 8MHz CPU, B25 Video Board 1982 2.) Floppy / Hard Disk Mother Board 1983 (Floppy / HD Controller module, HD Cables, FD Cables plug into this one) Teac FD-55FGR, ST506 85MB Microplis 1325, 3.) Floppy Disk Controller II ( Cipher Floppy Tape Drive plugs into this one) Cipher Floppy Tape Model 525 4.) Port Expander Motherboard (Multiline Port Expander Module plugs into this one) MP/EX FM-DTR 5.) Modem / Comm Board ( Modem Module & Comm Module plug into this one) Communications Controller, Modem 2690D 12/1984 By the sticker on the Video Module stating B25 Video, I'm guessing this a B25 system jammed into an army case. I'd like to identify the video chipset and the speed of the modem. -John Kourafas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: ; "Discussion at mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 9:52 PM Subject: Re: TACCS / CTOS I / BTOS / UNISYS / 10186 > Al Kossow wrote: >> I picked up one of the terminal units for the Computer Museum >> and just took at look at whats inside. It is a repackaged Burroughs >> B25, which is, as you noted, a Convergent 80186 system. >> >> I'd be interested in seeing pics of the insides of the main >> server unit. >> >> Convergent OEMed this stuff to lots of people. I think the >> Microdata 1000 may be one as well. >> >> I found one of a five disc set today for what appears to be >> CTOS rel 9.1-D for the 1000. > > I have a Convergent CP-001 (B26) that boots and runs great from the hard > drive. I just don't have any passwords for either the OS or the > court-reporting app it runs. > > I'd commit an unnatural act for the means to get root on the thing. > > > Doc > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/748 - Release Date: 4/5/2007 > 3:33 PM > > From GaryDFisher at shaw.ca Wed Apr 11 23:24:09 2007 From: GaryDFisher at shaw.ca (Gary Fisher) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:24:09 -0600 Subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI cards? Message-ID: <078001c77cba$6a6b59d0$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> On Wed Apr 11 00:44:13 CDT 2007 Ethan Dicks ethan.dicks at gmail.com wrote >Are there any 'gotchas' with the ARS-2000IU? > Max drive size? > Strange SCSI packet issues? > Will it work with really old SCSI implementations? >Really new ones? 1. I haven't seen any gotchas yet, I've tried it with smaller 1gb-10 gb IDE drives no prob. as I said before I needed the new bios to ecognize the CF card to IDE converter. 2. I haven't tried a big drive >128mb as I don't have any spare ones that big, but I'm getting one in this weekend and I'll try it out and report. 3. No glitches with the SCSI at all (as far as I can tell) 4. I've tried it with several Adaptec cards right throiugh to some newer PCI ones and no glitches so far. I just got in an Acard AEC-7720U that I'm going to replace the bigger ARS-2000. I had one before and it worked OK until I reversed the power supply and fried it. Yea, I know that shouldn't be possible as it uses a standard floppy power connector, but I broke off the plastic tab and guessed wrong the next time. It seems to have the same chipset so it should work the same as the ARS-2000. I'll be putting it into the 5155 in the next few days. If anything goes wrong, I'll post the results. The AEC-7720U's are going for about $30 on eBay right now (two vendors seem to have a big stock of them), they are the best deal IMO. This was a message from Gary Fisher From josefcub at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 23:30:22 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:30:22 -0500 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es> <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <9e2403920704112130i3974e470y6a8289925d778ebb@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/07, Ensor wrote: > > Much though I hate the language, a "C" compiler is most definitely *NON* > optional. > >From a porting standpoint, I'd agree wholeheartedly. Looking from the other direction, that of a machine whose purpose isn't to compile anything, it might be better to keep the compilers in a development add-on. Have base, dev, network, X, et al as separate pieces. Don't go the Slackware route of having _everything_ separate, but bundle like things together as a functioning, if basic, package that can be added onto later with custom programs or the other bundle packages. (if desired).. (On a note tangent to this discussion, I personally have a lot of trouble adapting to unixy editors. When asked "vi or emacs?" I responded "JOE", much to the confusion of the group present. So for me, an early version of Joe's Own Editor would be almost a must-have. Long Live Wordstar!) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 23:40:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20070411213915.D84925@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > computer". Here is a challenge: Can you come up with ANY credible definition of "home computer" for which the Tatung Einstein is even remotely a contender? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 23:46:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es> <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070411214506.M84925@shell.lmi.net> > While I agree that a FORTRAN compiler could be optional, how exactly do you > expect to get any useful (or in fact *ANY*) software installed without > access to a "C" compiler? . . . and how could you even call it an OS until it has a port of ADVENTURE, PONG, FLIGHT SIMULATOR, LODE RUNNER, or SOLITAIRE? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 00:26:58 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <20070411213915.D84925@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Apr 11, 7 09:40:38 pm" Message-ID: <200704120526.l3C5QwbX015564@floodgap.com> > > As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > > generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > > computer". > > Here is a challenge: > Can you come up with ANY credible definition of "home computer" for which > the Tatung Einstein is even remotely a contender? It will fit in many houses. -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 00:28:12 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461DA655.4040000@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Apr 11, 7 10:24:05 pm" Message-ID: <200704120528.l3C5SCti016880@floodgap.com> > > That kind of person would be me. I've done that kind of twisted stuff, > > like running OpenGL Quake on my mainframe, but that's *far* from normal. > > You know that Quake runs native, full 3D, on AIX v4.3.x, right? I love it! I'll need to do that on my next AIX box (my current one lacks any hope of natively supported 3D). -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. -- Leonardo da Vinci ----------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 00:36:48 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704120526.l3C5QwbX015564@floodgap.com> References: <200704120526.l3C5QwbX015564@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070411223546.L84925@shell.lmi.net> > > > As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > > > generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > > > computer". > > > > Here is a challenge: > > Can you come up with ANY credible definition of "home computer" for which > > the Tatung Einstein is even remotely a contender? > > It will fit in many houses. Sorry, I intended to say "first home computer" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 01:02:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:02:04 -0700 Subject: PC-MOS? Message-ID: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I appear to have a 5 user version. Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. Cheers, Chuck From michaelryan at mindspring.com Wed Apr 11 17:33:45 2007 From: michaelryan at mindspring.com (Michael A. Ryan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated Message-ID: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I have added a few new pictures to the xt/370 web site showing the stacked (and non-stacked) versions of the MCM66128L20, as well as two other examples of IBM engineering that employed stacked chips (AT motherboard and PC memory card) in the early 1980's. There are 36 pairs on the AT board to get 512K and 18 pairs on the memory card to get 64K. Obviously, these chips have different pinouts (at least select). The url is:- www.xt370.net click on the link to the left, 'Memory Technology' The question a data sheet might answer is:- does one of the new MCM66128L20 parts replace one of the old stacked pairs? --- also: -- >Subject: Re: Someone in search of XT/370 software >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >He's on the list. I have at least some of VM/PC, but when I tried to >email him to let him know, I got an autoresponse from a white-list >agent, which sent me to an unresponsive URL. It was sufficiently >irritating that I figured it wasn't worth pursuing further. >Seriously, folks, if you're going to ask for help, don't make it >impossible for people to give. >ok >bear Bear's criticism is well-founded. I believe I have corrected the problem; I did receive the e-mails and have responded off-list. At any rate, I greatly appreciate the interest and am sorry for the inconvenience. Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 11 19:23:28 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:23:28 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on Message-ID: <0JGC009GPZNSTYJC@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:25:54 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Apr 11, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Angel Martin Alganza wrote: >> What about smallX (formerly tinyX)? Has somebody used/looked at >> it/made an opinion of it? What about of Microwindows? W? MGR? > > Wow, MGR, I haven't heard of that in a while. I ran it for a bit >on an AT&T 3B1 back in the 80's. It was tiny and very fast! > > -Dave Me I prefer anything small and MC (midnite commander) as a UI on 'nix. and Norton Commander for dos. Then again I do a very custom W98se using 98lite for the same reason. Lighter is better. I'd love to find a 'nix (other than 2.x or V5/6/7) for the PDP-11 that has a small core and networking. Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Apr 11 19:38:33 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:38:33 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... Message-ID: <461D7F89.5020801@msu.edu> Hi all -- Recently picked up a TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" (model 26-4151) and the associated interface board, with the intent of hooking this up to my TRS-80 Model 16. On further investigation, it appears that the 26-4151 is a Secondary drive, which makes me curious as to whether this effort is going to be ultimately fruitless. So, without further ado, here's the questions I have: 1. Is it possible to get this secondary drive working as a primary, or am I up a creek without having a primary drive (or extra magic hardware in the drive I have.) 2. If I can work around #1, I need to know the pinouts of the drive and the controller board since I do not have a cable to connect the two. The controller has a 50-pin edge connector and the drive has three connectors -- 2 50-pin (labeled "Control") and one 20-pin (labeled "Data"). a. And as a follow on to #2, where would you suggest getting the parts and tools necessary to build the aforementioned cable? I've never constructed such a cable, and I'll have need to do so again in the future (need to assemble some long-ish ESDI cables for my PDP 11/73...) Thanks for any suggestions, Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 11 22:37:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:37:53 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) Message-ID: <0JGD00GIX8NRCZ6G@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:54:24 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/11/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> But I once had a project that >> used a real DEC TU-58. Not the fastest "random" >> access device!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >They work better as "sequential" access devices - being long and thin >and travelling in one dimension, go figure. We used to optimize file >order on our console TU58s to speed up the boot times on our 11/725s >and 11/730s. Since the file order doesn't change, one just builds a >TU58 with EXCHANGE with each file following the other. The console's >8-bit-micro must cache the directory block, since the tape didn't whip >back to the start between each file. > >Using unaltered console tapes from DEC resulted in, IIRC, about 15 >minutes from turning the key to booting the hard disk. Replacing that >tape with one of our own devising shortened that pre-boot time to well >under 3 minutes. > >I'd hate to rely on a TU-58 and no other block-addressable media on a >PDP-11, though. I survived a PDP-8 with a TD8E and TU56, but it was >somewhat tedious (cool to watch, though). TU-58s weren't as cool, >IMHO. So happens one of my "small" pdp-11s uses a Tu58. the system is a BA-11V with an 11/23 256k of ram, DLV11J and MRV11 rom(boot). Takes 10 minutes to boot, setup VM: then copy key files to and reboot. After that it's pretty decent even if I have to access a file on tape. Everytime I runs it with a bunch of kids of the current PC generations they go gaga and comment on how slow then I explain the amount of ram and storage then they are amazed it can be a functional machine with so little. They can't imagine a useful machine with 32kW of ram and 256kb of storage. On the flip side I've used that same Tu58 to bring up iron that had no removable storage. It's slow but very dependable. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 01:09:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:09:47 -0700 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461D6ABB.7018.507960F5@cclist.sydex.com> You know, IBM's still "stacking" chips: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070412/tc_nm/ibm_chip_dc_1 :-) From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Apr 12 01:24:16 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:24:16 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: <461D7F89.5020801@msu.edu> References: <461D7F89.5020801@msu.edu> Message-ID: <0fe401c77ccb$32c009c0$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 5:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... >Hi all -- >Recently picked up a TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" (model 26-4151) and >the associated interface board, with the intent of hooking this up to my >TRS-80 Model 16. >On further investigation, it appears that the 26-4151 is a Secondary >drive, which makes me curious as to whether this effort is going to be >ultimately fruitless. So, without further ado, here's the questions I >have: >1. Is it possible to get this secondary drive working as a primary, or >am I up a creek without having a primary drive (or extra magic hardware >in the drive I have.) ----- If this is a secondary drive, then No, it will not work without the primary ----- >2. If I can work around #1, I need to know the pinouts of the drive and >the controller board since I do not have a cable to connect the two. >The controller has a 50-pin edge connector and the drive has three >connectors -- 2 50-pin (labeled "Control") and one 20-pin (labeled "Data"). > a. And as a follow on to #2, where would you suggest getting the >parts and tools necessary to build the aforementioned cable? I've never >constructed such a cable, and I'll have need to do so again in the >future (need to assemble some long-ish ESDI cables for my PDP 11/73...) -------- IIRC, it is 50 pin straight through(to the primary enclosure) the 8 meg units used SA1004? Drives that were very prone to failure :( the techs at RS called it "blowing the bubble", I had an 8 meg disk unit that got 3 new drives into it while it was under it's original and extended warranty. On the 3rd drive they informed me that they were cancelling my extended warranty (I was leaving the system up 24x7 with Xenix running on it) and had terminals in everyones rooms and a modem hooked up to one of the serial ports so we could dial out to local BBS' http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 01:24:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:24:47 -0700 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <20070411213915.D84925@shell.lmi.net> References: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20070411213915.D84925@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461D6E3F.21156.50871E97@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2007 at 21:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > Here is a challenge: > Can you come up with ANY credible definition of "home computer" for which > the Tatung Einstein is even remotely a contender? With appropriate inducement, I have no doubt that a cockroach would feel quite at home inside the Einstein. From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Thu Apr 12 01:38:13 2007 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:38:13 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? Message-ID: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 11:02 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PC-MOS? > > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened > the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like > it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I > appear to have a 5 user version. > > Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. > > Cheers, > Chuck Sounds like the PC-MOS I used in the mid-80's to build a multi-user system using an IBM PC/AT with an expansion box that had one CGA card per user. The expansion box had special cables for monitor and keyboard (thick & bulky). This let me run DBase III, Wordstar 2000, etc. in an office for up to eight stations. Each station appeared to have the PC/AT to itself. Worked really well. I wonder if I was using the same PC-MOS but a very early version. david. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 12 01:49:10 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:49:10 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <200704120023.UAA18575@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <21842DFA-78FF-4AA1-8C17-A646D17547E7@neurotica.com> <200704120023.UAA18575@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <7EC0BF78-0F60-498E-92AF-48DC2D89396C@neurotica.com> On Apr 11, 2007, at 8:21 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>>>> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, >>>>> not 'nice to have' functionality. >>> The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? >> This is an easy problem to solve. Resist the temptation to bundle >> non-OS software with the OS. > > That doesn't really solve anything; all it does is shift the > debates to > the question of what counts as part of the OS. True I suppose...but it would get us partway there, as, for example, I don't think anyone (with the possible exception of Sun Microsystems) would suggest that Postgres is a part of the OS. For the rest...*Someone* has to make the ruling, preferably leaning to the "not part of the OS" side more often than not, and the people who want everything handed to them on a platter will just need to bite the bullet and learn how to type "./configure;make;make install"...or go run another OS. > For exmaple, I consider a C compiler part of the OS. Others will > doubtless disagree. Some would consider perl part of the OS; I don't. Incidentally, I would agree on both counts. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 12 01:54:56 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:54:56 -0700 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C51C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C51C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <461DD7C0.5090108@msm.umr.edu> Billy Pettit wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >The "half good" memory dates back long before 256K chips--it goes all >the way back to 16K ones. I've got a batch of Intel 2109s that >differ from each other by a suffix -1 or -2. > > >Cheers, >Chuck > >------ > >Billy: > >Actually it goes back further than that. > > By small, I mean 4K or 8K bytes, typical of many memory boards >available in the early 1970's. > >Billy > > I am working for a company that runs you thru a mini MBA as training up front now and we have several books which look at various Intel projects and products. They tried all sorts of things, including the part good trick, right before bagging their memory operation. The idea according to business that they were trying was to shoot for a positive differentiation to keep a premium up. In the case of this market, it was a classic example of having the vision to get out. Apparently there was a long series of meetings one of which ended with Noyce asking Moore, "what would happen here if they just fired us? The answer was that the new CEO would just shut down the memory line" I guess that was the point where they actually decided to do so. It is interesting to get this from a company in this day and age, and is different than what most have usually served up, as well as better than I have had. Jim From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Apr 12 02:25:50 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:25:50 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 11 Apr 2007 at 23:07, Joost van de Griek wrote: > >> On 4/11/07 9:35 PM, Chris M wrote: >> >>> I really don't think it's realistic to operate a modern computer w/a >>> non-windowed environment these days. Many will disagree, and that's their >>> prerogative, someone said something about eye-candy, but I think it comes down >>> to cheating yourself of functionality. >> >> You give up some functionality, gain other functionality. Like almost >> everything, a GUI is a trade-off. > > Excuse me, but we're talking about two different things, aren't we? > Or is my age showing again? Maybe we are, but I hardly think that's relevant. > Unless I've got my wires crossed (again), "windowing" and "GUI" have > very little to do with another. That is, you can have text-mode > winodws and windowless graphics, no? A windowed environment is a GUI, yes? > So what's meant here? What's meant here is that the Chris M has a point: you *do* cheat yourself of some functionality when using a non-windowed environment "these days". However, you also cheat yourself of functionality exactly by using a windows environment. There are things that are much more efficient if you don't have to wrestle the point-and-click interface. Look at *real* power users, even on windowed systems. They hardly touch the mouse. It's all keyboard shortcuts, and it's *way* faster. The downside is having to master all those cryptic gestures and key combinations. ,xtG tsooJ From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Apr 12 02:42:54 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:42:54 +0200 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! Message-ID: <2j3h1yrcwv2nalm.120420070942@jvdg.com> woodelf wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question >> generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home >> computer". > > I have yet to see a real HOME computer. Most game boxes I have seen > - Coco, C-64 ect. where marketed as home computers but what do you need > a home computer for? To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home computer would be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a closet or the basement, and it'd have connections for thin clients all through the house. It'd control your furnace, communications systems, lighting, heating, water supply, you name it. You'd use it to determine at what level of ambient light the room lighting switches on and at what times the curtains open and close, or what temperature your bedroom needs to be a the time you get up on workdays. It'd make sure your bath tub is filled at the right time. and that your toast and coffee are ready in the kitchen when you finish your bath, displaying your email on the kitchen's display while you breakfast. No, haven't seen many of them, yet. Only in a few proof-of-concept "home of the future" type projects. ,xtG tsooJ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 12 03:02:20 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461D3BC5.26760.4FC1F3A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <461CF90A.30971.4EBD4CC8@cclist.sydex.com>, <200704120024.UAA18588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <461D3BC5.26760.4FC1F3A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200704120803.EAA26631@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> In principle, you're right. >> In practice, you're wrong. > So you're saying that I'm not getting any useful work done with my > copy of (text windowing) IDA disassembler and that I accomplished > absolutely nothing with my old copies of Orcad and Schema SDT > (nonwindowing graphics)? You and I - heck, this whole list - are a set of measure zero for practical purposes. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Apr 12 03:16:49 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:16:49 +0200 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on Message-ID: <4qvjplnitojfz6w.120420071016@jvdg.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > For the rest...*Someone* has to make the ruling, preferably > leaning to the "not part of the OS" side more often than not, and the > people who want everything handed to them on a platter will just need > to bite the bullet and learn how to type "./configure;make;make > install"...or go run another OS. Hear, hear. ,xtG tsooJ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 12 03:15:29 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <200704120823.EAA26820@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A windowed environment is a GUI, yes? Not necessarily. NetBSD - and presumably others - ships with window(1), which provides a text-mode windowing environment. Nothing graphical about it any more than any text "terminal" necessarily is. > What's meant here is that the Chris M has a point: you *do* cheat > yourself of some functionality when using a non-windowed environment > "these days". I'm not sure "cheat" is really an appropriate word, but yes, you lose some functionality when you drop windowing. Sometimes that functionality is irrelevant, or worth losing to get some other benefit. Sometimes it's not. > However, you also cheat yourself of functionality exactly by using a > windows environment. There are things that are much more efficient > if you don't have to wrestle the point-and-click interface. Windowing environments don't necessarily mean point-and-click. In my own X-based environment, for example, I can work productively for hours - and not just all in the same window, either - without touching the mouse. As you yourself said, > Look at *real* power users, even on windowed systems. They hardly > touch the mouse. It's not GUI environments that lose the functionality you're talking about; it's about a particular subclass of GUI environments that are designed - misdesigned, arguably - so as to compel their users to switch between keyboard and mouse comparatively frequently (on a timescale of seconds to minutes). > It's all keyboard shortcuts, and it's *way* faster. The downside is > having to master all those cryptic gestures and key combinations. Sounds to me as though you're talking about primarily point-and-click windowing environments with keyboard "shortcuts" grafted on, rather than environments designed from the ground up to be keyboard-driven. (That one particularly dominant windowing environment is an especially egregious example of this doesn't help....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 12 04:09:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:09:23 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <2j3h1yrcwv2nalm.120420070942@jvdg.com> References: <2j3h1yrcwv2nalm.120420070942@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <461DF743.5040201@yahoo.co.uk> jvdg at sparcpark.net wrote: > To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home computer would > be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a closet or the basement Home computer: A system large enough to live inside, providing shelter, heating, and ventilation for the occupants. From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Apr 12 04:15:17 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:15:17 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: Der Mouse wrote: >> A windowed environment is a GUI, yes? > > Not necessarily. NetBSD - and presumably others - ships with > window(1), which provides a text-mode windowing environment. Nothing > graphical about it any more than any text "terminal" necessarily is. Fair enough. >> What's meant here is that the Chris M has a point: you *do* cheat >> yourself of some functionality when using a non-windowed environment >> "these days". > > I'm not sure "cheat" is really an appropriate word, but yes, you lose > some functionality when you drop windowing. Just going with the way things were phrased in the original post. > Sometimes that functionality is irrelevant, or worth losing to get some > other benefit. Sometimes it's not. Exactly my point. >> However, you also cheat yourself of functionality exactly by using a >> windows environment. There are things that are much more efficient >> if you don't have to wrestle the point-and-click interface. > > Windowing environments don't necessarily mean point-and-click. In my > own X-based environment, for example, I can work productively for hours > - and not just all in the same window, either - without touching the > mouse. As you yourself said, > >> Look at *real* power users, even on windowed systems. They hardly >> touch the mouse. > > It's not GUI environments that lose the functionality you're talking > about; it's about a particular subclass of GUI environments that are > designed - misdesigned, arguably - so as to compel their users to > switch between keyboard and mouse comparatively frequently (on a > timescale of seconds to minutes). As I assumed was meant by the OP. >> It's all keyboard shortcuts, and it's *way* faster. The downside is >> having to master all those cryptic gestures and key combinations. > > Sounds to me as though you're talking about primarily point-and-click > windowing environments with keyboard "shortcuts" grafted on, rather > than environments designed from the ground up to be keyboard-driven. > (That one particularly dominant windowing environment is an especially > egregious example of this doesn't help....) Yes, I was going by the *popular* definition of GUI/Windowed environment, not the strict one. ,xtG tsooJ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 12 04:18:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:18:14 -0500 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <200704120023.UAA18575@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <21842DFA-78FF-4AA1-8C17-A646D17547E7@neurotica.com> <200704120023.UAA18575@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <461DF956.9010802@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >>>>> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, >>>>> not 'nice to have' functionality. >>> The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? >> This is an easy problem to solve. Resist the temptation to bundle >> non-OS software with the OS. > > That doesn't really solve anything; all it does is shift the debates to > the question of what counts as part of the OS. I think I'm failing to see the problem, though. What does it matter if a release comes on one CD or five (or DVD, or tapes, whatever)? Surely the only issue concerning a lean install is that of what bits you need to install to get a system up and running - so it doesn't matter if there's a C compiler (or a database, or whatever) on the install media providing that you don't have to install it. It's the user's choice. I'm pretty sure a Slackware Linux system can still be installed using a kernel and a few bits from the 'A' disk set, for instance, giving a footprint of only a few MB. I don't see the bloat as coming from the packages, but from the code itself - more functionality within individual libraries (which for a particular user might not be needed), coupled with code that's optimised for quickest time to production rather than efficiency. From James at jdfogg.com Thu Apr 12 07:03:40 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:03:40 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D12@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder > set of something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa > 1992. I opened the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and > the thing looks like > it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I > appear to have a 5 user version. > > Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. I remember this! It was a multi user MS-DOS. It supported a number of 8 port serial cards of the same generation (Starcomm or something like that). You'd attach terminals to the serial board and run software that was written to run under PC-MOS. Medical office software was what I mostly saw on these systems. From djg at pdp8.net Thu Apr 12 07:10:49 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:10:49 -0400 Subject: TU56 Rack Mounting question Message-ID: <200704121210.l3CCAna28598@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> > Does a TU56 normally have rack-mount rails? I have two TU56 drives and > neither of them have rails. How are these typically mounted? > Like others have said with the normal rail screws. To make it easy to get in and out I got some angle iron from the hardware store and bolted it between the front and back rails below the drive so I could slide the drive in then put a couple of screws in. Most items that will be below it are narrow enough that they will clear the angle iron. Not correct but since I was taking it for display that made the disassembly and reassembly much easier. From g at kurico.com Thu Apr 12 07:57:45 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:57:45 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461E2CC9.8080700@kurico.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened > the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like > it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I > appear to have a 5 user version. > > Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > As others have mentioned, it allowed you to connect terminals to a PC and have each terminal act as a virtual PC. The version I used had some limitations such as not supporting apps that did direct screen writes, but it was a relatively inexpensive way to share DOS apps amongst different users (at a time when networking was rare and quite expensive, IIRC $1200 for an ethernet card). We used Kimtron (I think that was the name) serial terminals that were special in that their keyboard layout mimicked the PC. Was pretty slick with the right apps, at the time running on a NCR 286 box (which was a screamer for it's day). George From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 12 08:04:44 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:04:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Worlds first computer on ebay! Message-ID: <581365.63328.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> You (and your family) would be in trouble (if not in danger) every time it froze or crashed. What about in a power cut - batteries dont last forever? Would most retro computers be able to do such a job? ( trying to get this back on topic) - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > >> As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > >> generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > >> computer". > > > > I have yet to see a real HOME computer. Most game boxes I have seen > > - Coco, C-64 ect. where marketed as home computers but what do you need > > a home computer for? > > To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home computer would > be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a closet or the basement, > and it'd have connections for thin clients all through the house. It'd > control your furnace, communications systems, lighting, heating, water > supply, you name it. You'd use it to determine at what level of ambient > light the room lighting switches on and at what times the curtains open > and close, or what temperature your bedroom needs to be a the time you > get up on workdays. It'd make sure your bath tub is filled at the right > time. and that your toast and coffee are ready in the kitchen when you > finish your bath, displaying your email on the kitchen's display while > you breakfast. > > No, haven't seen many of them, yet. Only in a few proof-of-concept "home of > the future" type projects. > > ,xtG > tsooJ > > From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 12 08:09:22 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704120526.l3C5QwbX015564@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070412130922.F308B58944@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Cameron Kaiser > > > > As I've learned before from this list, the only thing which that question > > > generates is a flamewar about what is a computer, and what's a "home > > > computer". > > > > Here is a challenge: > > Can you come up with ANY credible definition of "home computer" for which > > the Tatung Einstein is even remotely a contender? > > It will fit in many houses. > Just not those living in a shoe box in the middle of the road. Cheers, Bryan From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Apr 12 08:19:19 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:19:19 +0200 Subject: Worlds first computer on ebay! Message-ID: Andrew Burton wrote: > You (and your family) would be in trouble (if not in > danger) every time it froze or crashed. What about in > a power cut - batteries dont last forever? Manual override. A bit of a nuisance that your tub isn't filled and the tea isn't ready, but we're getting by, now, so why wouldn't we get by then? > Would most retro computers be able to do such a job? > (trying to get this back on topic) I would think so. Thermostats and phone systems are embedded computer systems, have been for ages. So are dedicated routers. No huge amounts of processing power necessary. ,xtG tsooJ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 08:26:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:26:57 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on In-Reply-To: <7EC0BF78-0F60-498E-92AF-48DC2D89396C@neurotica.com> References: <200704111411.l3BEAFvT030061@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070411153354.21264.qmail@seefried.com> <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es> <200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <21842DFA-78FF-4AA1-8C17-A646D17547E7@neurotica.com> <200704120023.UAA18575@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <7EC0BF78-0F60-498E-92AF-48DC2D89396C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <461E33A1.3080002@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>>> ClassicBSD would need to be about 'have to have' functionality, >>>>>> not 'nice to have' functionality. >>>> The problem, of course, is, whose idea of "have to have" controls? >>> This is an easy problem to solve. Resist the temptation to bundle >>> non-OS software with the OS. >> >> That doesn't really solve anything; all it does is shift the debates to >> the question of what counts as part of the OS. > > True I suppose...but it would get us partway there, as, for example, I > don't think anyone (with the possible exception of Sun Microsystems) > would suggest that Postgres is a part of the OS. > > For the rest...*Someone* has to make the ruling, preferably leaning to > the "not part of the OS" side more often than not, and the people who > want everything handed to them on a platter will just need to bite the > bullet and learn how to type "./configure;make;make install"...or go run > another OS. It still gets a bit fuzzy with things like RAIDframe. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 08:30:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:30:15 -0400 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461DF743.5040201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <2j3h1yrcwv2nalm.120420070942@jvdg.com> <461DF743.5040201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <461E3467.1090706@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >> To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home >> computer would be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a >> closet or the basement > > Home computer: A system large enough to live inside, providing > shelter, heating, and ventilation for the occupants. Hear, hear!! Peace... Sridhar From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 12 08:29:45 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:29:45 -0500 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <461E3449.8070504@pacbell.net> Michael A. Ryan wrote: > I have added a few new pictures to the xt/370 web site showing the stacked (and non-stacked) versions of the MCM66128L20, as well as two other examples of IBM engineering that employed stacked chips (AT motherboard and PC memory card) in the early 1980's. > There are 36 pairs on the AT board to get 512K and 18 pairs on the memory card to get 64K. > > Obviously, these chips have different pinouts (at least select). > > The url is:- www.xt370.net click on the link to the left, 'Memory Technology' > > The question a data sheet might answer is:- does one of the new MCM66128L20 parts replace one of the old stacked pairs? Mike, your web page says: "The System/370 processor is implemented in three microprocessors -- two Motorola 68000 processors and a custom 8087." Are you sure about that? Nick Tredennick, the architect (or maybe co architect) of the 68000 left Motorola, went to work for IBM, and was the architect of the "micro 370". The design and its evolution were described in a book Tredennick wrote, Microprocessor Logic Design: The Flowchart Method. I know nothing of the machine you have there, but I suspect it is really using redundant copies of the micro 370 described in the book. I've heard passing reference to this machine and have heard that it is a 68000 CPU with modified microcode, but that isn't the case. They have similarities at some level because of the era they were design and because of Tredennick's contribution to both. Perhaps you are write and there was more than one micro 370 project, but I thought I'd mention the piece of the puzzle that I know a little about. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 09:25:31 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:25:31 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: <461D7F89.5020801@msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Josh Dersch > >Hi all -- > >Recently picked up a TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" (model 26-4151) and the >associated interface board, with the intent of hooking this up to my TRS-80 >Model 16. > >On further investigation, it appears that the 26-4151 is a Secondary drive, >which makes me curious as to whether this effort is going to be ultimately >fruitless. So, without further ado, here's the questions I have: > >1. Is it possible to get this secondary drive working as a primary, or am I >up a creek without having a primary drive (or extra magic hardware in the >drive I have.) >2. If I can work around #1, I need to know the pinouts of the drive and the >controller board since I do not have a cable to connect the two. The >controller has a 50-pin edge connector and the drive has three connectors >-- 2 50-pin (labeled "Control") and one 20-pin (labeled "Data"). Hi It sounds like you have a mismatch of things. It sounds like you have the interface board for the 5 Meg drive and the 8 Meg drive that has the controller in the trs-80. The 5 Meg came with the controller in the drive board ( although, I've seen some indication that some of the 8Meg drives did this as well ). The newer large drive had the controller in the trs-80 box and required the two ribbon cables of 50 and 20 pins. It can be made to work with either a controller board from a 5 Meg or a wd1001 board. Both have been on ebay resently but I only see then every couple of months. Of course one can get the controller board that mounts in the trs-80. The wd1001 will require a little additional circuit to do address decoding. The controller went for a 'buy it now' but was the second time it was listed. Just to make sure, open up your drive box. If all that is in there is a power supply and drive, then you'll most likely need to find one of the controller boards. If it has a large board, then one of the 50 pin connectors was to be connected to the interface. You should look. > a. And as a follow on to #2, where would you suggest getting the parts >and tools necessary to build the aforementioned cable? I've never >constructed such a cable, and I'll have need to do so again in the future >(need to assemble some long-ish ESDI cables for my PDP 11/73...) Although, I currently have a crimper tool for these connectors, I've had good success with a vice and a couple strips of metal. With either method, one can still mess them up. One needs to make sure the ribbon is well aligned before the final squeeze. Dwight > >Thanks for any suggestions, >Josh _________________________________________________________________ Can?t afford to quit your job? ? Earn your AS, BS, or MS degree online in 1 year. http://www.classesusa.com/clickcount.cfm?id=866145&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classesusa.com%2Ffeaturedschools%2Fonlinedegreesmp%2Fform-dyn1.html%3Fsplovr%3D866143 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 12 09:29:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:29:27 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <96B336C5-A7F6-4FB7-984A-F7E0B0185207@neurotica.com> On Apr 12, 2007, at 2:02 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened > the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like > it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I > appear to have a 5 user version. > > Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. Wow...I have *heard* of it from way way back, but that's about it. Sounds like it'd be fun to play with. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 09:33:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:33:57 -0700 Subject: Olivetti 101 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi There are some programming cards for a Olivetti 101 on ebay. It seem like I saw someone on this list that either has one or wanted one. It would be a shame to see these cards lost without someone or a museum getting them. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 09:54:12 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461E3467.1090706@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Apr 12, 7 09:30:15 am" Message-ID: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> > > To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home > > computer would be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a > > closet or the basement > > Home computer: A system large enough to live inside, providing > shelter, heating, and ventilation for the occupants. The computers here provide *ample* heating. -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What an incredible thing we did. -- R. J. Mical, Commodore-Amiga ----------- From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 12 09:58:47 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:58:47 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> At 02:25 AM 4/12/2007, jvdg at sparcpark.net wrote: >Look at *real* power users, even on windowed systems. >They hardly touch the mouse. It's all keyboard shortcuts, and it's *way* faster. >The downside is having to master all those cryptic gestures and key combinations. Is there a wiki where we can enter FAQs and question myths? I quote my response from several years ago. - John At 11:10 PM 5/22/01 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >In his interview in ``Programmers at Work,'' he stated he didn't care for >mice at all, as it forces you to relocate your hands from the keyboard to >the mouse, and that most navigation could be done faster via the keyboard >than with a mouse [3]. And his current work he mentions his dislike of the >mouse. >[3] In my experience, that's true once you learn how to navigate a > document via the keyboard. But there are some things I like using > a mouse for though. It's interesting to note that another Apple-raised interface theorist, Bruce Tognazzini, http://www.asktog.com/ believes (and claims to have tested and proved) that keyboard-based, chording shortcut users engage in a momentary lapse of consciousness in which they recall and then position their hands for the keystroke, and that although they *think* they're faster than a mouse, they're not. See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was faster than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that mousing was faster than keyboarding. His explanation for this is that deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level cognitive function, and that this decision is not only boring, but that the user experiences near-amnesia in the approximately two seconds needed to remember the chord keystroke. On the other hand, Tog also argues that two-handed chords (think the handy cut-and-paste CTRL/C /V) result in solid productivity gains. Around page 180, where in fact he discusses Raskin's Cat interface and the decision to use a single dedicated key for operations such as "Find", Tog admits was actually fifty times faster than the Mac's mouse-move. This reminds me of the old joke about voice interface word processors: "Up, up, up, left, left, left, left, no right, stop, yes, right there ... delete that word." Or the other half of the joke, where people poke their head over a cubicle wall and shout a command like "format c: yes i am sure". - John From vp at drexel.edu Thu Apr 12 10:17:06 2007 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated Message-ID: <200704121517.l3CFH6Wf006684@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Jim Battle wrote: > Mike, your web page says: > > "The System/370 processor is implemented in three microprocessors -- > two Motorola 68000 processors and a custom 8087." > > Are you sure about that? Nick Tredennick, the architect (or maybe co > architect) of the 68000 left Motorola, went to work for IBM, and was the > architect of the "micro 370". [...] > > I know nothing of the machine you have there, but I suspect it is really > using redundant copies of the micro 370 described in the book. [...] This quote from the article "System/370 capability in a desktop Computer" (IBM System Journal Vol 23, No 2, 1984), may help resolve this issue: As previously mentioned, three microprocessors are used to implement System/370 processing functions. A custom-developed System/370 Subset microprocessor performs most of the System/370 commercial instructions. Floating point, including extended precision, instructions are executed by a custom developed Floating point microprocessor which works in close conjuction with the System/370 Subset processor. The remaining instructions are emulated by an MC68000R microprocessor which also performs other tasks such as exception handling. Having said that, I also remember reading somewhere about the 68000 with modified microcode somewhere (maybe Byte magazine?) **vp From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 12 03:49:03 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:49:03 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461DA655.4040000@mdrconsult.com> References: <504389.30140.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <283AC830-5E00-4848-BEA5-E858EB52E3EA@neurotica.com> <461D7404.8060809@gmail.com> <200704112213.44842.pat@computer-refuge.org> <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> <461DA655.4040000@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1176367743.8163.0.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 22:24 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > You know that Quake runs native, full 3D, on AIX v4.3.x, right? Hm. Well, Castle Wolfenstein 3D ran on the Apple IIGS, so if I could find a framebuffer for my PDP11... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 12 03:56:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:56:51 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461D6E3F.21156.50871E97@cclist.sydex.com> References: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> , <200704112206.56828.pat@computer-refuge.org> , <20070411213915.D84925@shell.lmi.net> <461D6E3F.21156.50871E97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1176368211.8163.2.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 23:24 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Apr 2007 at 21:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Here is a challenge: > > Can you come up with ANY credible definition of "home computer" for which > > the Tatung Einstein is even remotely a contender? > > With appropriate inducement, I have no doubt that a cockroach would > feel quite at home inside the Einstein. If you put the empty cardboard packaging in certain parts of London, you could sell it to first-time home buyers for around ?450,000 Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 12 04:00:59 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:00:59 +0100 Subject: Off-topic Air filters, was Re: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <461C3209.4090709@gmail.com> References: <461C3209.4090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176368459.8163.5.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-04-10 at 20:55 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Well, I've seen how much dust a car air filter lets through, and I won't > use one on my car anymore. 8-/ What, no air filter at all? Doesn't that make the engine run rather lean, with lots of pinking and eventually holes in the piston crowns? Gordon (who has seen it happen) From davis at saw.net Thu Apr 12 04:43:48 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:43:48 -0700 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es> <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461DFF54.8050803@saw.net> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Couldn't both of them, FORTRAN and a C compiler be optional > >packages/ports? > > While I agree that a FORTRAN compiler could be optional, how exactly > do you expect to get any useful (or in fact *ANY*) software installed > without access to a "C" compiler? > > Since we're talking about a non-mainstream, minimalist distribution, > it's unlikely in the extreme that any particular package you want > would be available as a binary distribution.... It's for this very > reason that, back in the late 80's, "Minix" was utterly useless as > anything more than an educational tool/curiosity! > > Much though I hate the language, a "C" compiler is most definitely > *NON* optional. > > > TTFN - Pete. > > > I bought the MINIX version for the Atari ST and installed it, but I used it as a toy, I don't remember recompiling the kernal. It had full kernal source, and all the tools to rebuild. I think you're mistaken saying it was useless. Any development environment that supplied device access and process management was a good base to develop. Anything with a prompt. Jim Davis. Most of my projects consist of bare hardware, data sheets and a cross development environment.. From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 12 10:34:34 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:34:34 -0700 Subject: PC-MOS? Message-ID: <461E518A.3D77E9B7@rain.org> The version I worked with for a client was circa late 1980's. Basically it was software that would support multi-tasking on one CPU. It was installed on an original IBM 6 MHz AT and was fairly slow but did save the expense of another computer by using a terminal instead. They also sold some hardware that was basically a four-port serial card/connectors for attaching to the terminals thus allowing multiple operations. As I said, the whole things was fairly slow then, but worked well for something like word processing. > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened > the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like > it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I > appear to have a 5 user version. > > Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. > > Cheers, > Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 10:51:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:51:19 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <461DF307.10569.1E41E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 9:25, jvdg at sparcpark.net wrote: > What's meant here is that the Chris M has a point: you *do* cheat yourself of some > functionality when using a non-windowed environment "these days". However, you > also cheat yourself of functionality exactly by using a windows environment. There > are things that are much more efficient if you don't have to wrestle the > point-and-click interface. My point was that graphical capabilities are perhaps sufficient, but not necessary for a windowed environment. Similarly, a windowed environment does not require graphics. I have a copy of Mewel (including source code) here that illustrates that quite nicely. If I look at the screen I'm working with now under MS Windows, one thing that strikes me is that, with the exception of a few icons, it's almost entirely text. By and large, the graphics aspect is being wasted on me at this time. On the other hand, when I'm working on musical scores, the complexity of the notation demands that I always keep the screen as a single window. Windowing is pretty much wasted there, although graphics is not. In fact, music programs that have modal command entry, using windowing to display sub-menus are incredibly annoying and slow to use. Whether windowing serves games, I can't say. I've not played one since the days of SIMCGA (when I got my fill). To some, windowing implies only a message-passing event-based operating system interface, with keystrokes, mouse movements, etc. going to the window currently holding the focus. When we carelessly say "windowing is the same as GUI", we're simply displaying fuzzy thinking and can easily fall into the trap of thinking that there's only one way to accomplish a task. Judging from the number of repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain that industry endures, perhaps graphical message-passing windows aren't the best way. Canon Cat owners are invited to comment. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 11:30:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:30:00 -0400 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <200704121517.l3CFH6Wf006684@dune.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200704121517.l3CFH6Wf006684@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, Vassilis PREVELAKIS wrote: > This quote from the article "System/370 capability in a desktop Computer" > (IBM System Journal Vol 23, No 2, 1984), may help resolve this issue: > > ..The remaining instructions are emulated by an MC68000R microprocessor > which also performs other tasks such as exception handling. > > Having said that, I also remember reading somewhere about the 68000 > with modified microcode somewhere (maybe Byte magazine?) I have heard of a lot of m68k variants (including XC-series parts), but I've never heard of an MC68000R... perhaps the R is the significant indicator? -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 12 12:35:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:35:30 -0600 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <461DFF54.8050803@saw.net> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es> <00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461DFF54.8050803@saw.net> Message-ID: <461E6DE2.1040008@jetnet.ab.ca> davis wrote: > I bought the MINIX version for the Atari ST and installed it, but I used > it as a toy, I don't remember recompiling the kernal. > It had full kernal source, and all the tools to rebuild. I think you're > mistaken saying it was useless. Any development environment > that supplied device access and process management was a good base to > develop. Anything with a prompt. > Jim Davis. The only problem was/is that that you don't have the source for the C compiler with the orginal Minix. Other than that it was a NICE little OS. > Most of my projects consist of bare hardware, data sheets and a cross > development environment.. How ever hidesight tells us that 32K words is just minium for a GOOD os. I still would of liked to see a 18 bit PDP-11. :) From g at kurico.com Thu Apr 12 11:40:10 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:40:10 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461E518A.3D77E9B7@rain.org> References: <461E518A.3D77E9B7@rain.org> Message-ID: <461E60EA.1090209@kurico.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > The version I worked with for a client was circa late 1980's. Basically it was > software that would support multi-tasking on one CPU. It was installed on an > original IBM 6 MHz AT and was fairly slow but did save the expense of another > computer by using a terminal instead. They also sold some hardware that was > basically a four-port serial card/connectors for attaching to the terminals thus > allowing multiple operations. As I said, the whole things was fairly slow then, > but worked well for something like word processing. > > Slow is a bit relative here. I had the opportunity to do two similar installations (similar in that the software was the same in both cases). One was using the before mentioned NCR 286 (can't remember the clock speed off hand) controlling 4 terminals (so 5 workstations altogether including the NCR). The other was a network of 4 PC XT clones. The relative costs of the two setups were close and the advantages/disadvantages were pretty much as you'd expect. The PCMOS solution would do blazing fast DB/IO, so if the solution did a lot of IO, you were golden. The networks of the time were slow as well as the PC's, so the networked PC's would suck when it came time to hit the DB. However, since the PCMOS solution didn't support direct screen writes (or maybe it did, but it had to capture it and stream it over the serial lines), UI intensive apps suffered. Screen redraws were slow. True to classic stereotypes, the users tended to prefer the network solution because they liked having the responsive UI, I (since I was the admin) preferred the faster IO. This was a POS system BTW. No, that's Point of Sale. George From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 11:41:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:41:19 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461E2CC9.8080700@kurico.com> References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> <461E2CC9.8080700@kurico.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, George Currie wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. > > > As others have mentioned, it allowed you to connect terminals to a PC > and have each terminal act as a virtual PC. Hmm... sounds like what the Amiga did out of the box with a "newcli References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D12@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <461DFF75.5308.4ED097@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 8:03, James Fogg wrote: > I remember this! > It was a multi user MS-DOS. It supported a number of 8 port serial cards > of the same generation (Starcomm or something like that). You'd attach > terminals to the serial board and run software that was written to run > under PC-MOS. Medical office software was what I mostly saw on these > systems. Perusing the installation manual, mention is made of a multiport intelligent serial card (MAXPEED SS 8/M) interfacing to Wyse 60 terminals. But then, other examples go on to use something called a Maxtation SH 4/M adapter, which seems to be a card that interfaces 4 Hercules MGA adapters and 4 PC keyboards, used as terminals. Then there's the VGNA, (Video Graphcs Network Adapter) that supports two VGA monitors and keyboards. Up to 4 VGNAs per system is allowed. I've never heard of either of these adapters. Networking is mentioned, but is very sketchy. The latest CPU mentioned is a 486; disk partition sizes of up to 628MB seem to be supported. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 11:46:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:46:42 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461DF307.10569.1E41E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <461DF307.10569.1E41E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My point was that graphical capabilities are perhaps sufficient, but > not necessary for a windowed environment. Similarly, a windowed > environment does not require graphics. I have a copy of Mewel > (including source code) here that illustrates that quite nicely. I think perhaps the terminology that folks are dancing around is that "WIMP != windows"... the now-deprecated term for MS Windows, classic MacOS, AmigaOS, and their ilk was, at the time they were new, "WIMP" for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pulldowns (or was it "Pop-ups" or "Pointers"?) There were plenty of text-box-based windowish applications for DOS, or for dumb terminals off of DEC machines, but they typically lacked attached menu bars, pop-up or drop-down ,menus, or even a pointing device. That, I think is more the defining characteristic than the window itself, but over time, the window is what people fixate on, not the setting of the window. So to be clear, I am agreeing with the position that one can have Windows outside of a GUI (and that one can have a GUI that lacks windows, such as a CAD program), but in the mind of the masses, GUIs == windows. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 12 11:38:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Worlds first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <581365.63328.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <581365.63328.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704121648.MAA29910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [top-posting damage repaired manually -dM] >>> but what do you need a home computer for? >> To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home >> computer would be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a >> closet or the basement, and it'd have connections for thin clients >> all through the house. It'd control your furnace, communications >> systems, lighting, heating, water supply, you name it. [...] > You (and your family) would be in trouble (if not in danger) every > time it froze or crashed. The same could be said of the computer in a modern car, controlling such things as timing, fuel injection, and dashboard. Or the fly-by-wire computers on airliners. This actually is a reason to make sure everything fails in the correct direction, and there are "too dumb to fail" overrides in some cases (eg, non-computer-controlled parallel thermostats to keep the heating and cooling clipped to, say, 5? and 35?, with never both of them on at once). It's also a reason to add hardware watchdogs and suchlike, and to make sure that everything can be overridden manually in non-computer ways at need. Nothing is perfect, of course. But for a lot of people, the additional comfort and convenience are worth the risk. (I'm one of them, or would be if I had the round tuits to rewire my place suitably.) > What about in a power cut - batteries dont last forever? If everything controlled by it is electrically powered, there's no point trying to keep the computer up during a power-out. > Would most retro computers be able to do such a job? If it were *my* house, I'd sure rather trust the job to a Z80 than the latest Wintel trash! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Apr 12 11:50:33 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:50:33 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461D6E3F.21156.50871E97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/07 07:24, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > With appropriate inducement, I have no doubt that a cockroach would > feel quite at home inside the Einstein. Cue wildly inappropriate loud chuckle as I read my emails on the train! Cheers Chuck! ;-) -Austin. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 12 11:56:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:56:09 -0700 Subject: MC68000R Message-ID: <461E64A9.8020204@bitsavers.org> > I have heard of a lot of m68k variants (including XC-series parts), > but I've never heard of an MC68000R PGA package. Not commonly used on the 68000. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 12:17:32 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 12, 7 12:41:19 pm" Message-ID: <200704121717.l3CHHWu1012296@floodgap.com> > > > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > > > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. > > > > > As others have mentioned, it allowed you to connect terminals to a PC > > and have each terminal act as a virtual PC. > > Hmm... sounds like what the Amiga did out of the box with a "newcli > NetNews (aquired via UUCP and read off-line) while my flatmate played > "Silent Service". Now that's hot. I'll have to try that with my A500 sometime. -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words - From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 12 12:25:48 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:25:48 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> <461E2CC9.8080700@kurico.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412122207.0686a8e8@mail> At 11:41 AM 4/12/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Hmm... sounds like what the Amiga did out of the box with a "newcli >NetNews (aquired via UUCP and read off-line) while my flatmate played >"Silent Service". I seem to remember doing it in both directions between PC and Amiga, with Pro-YAM delivering a good command line over the serial port. On the Amiga side, wasn't there a better alternative than 'newcli'? I also remember having either the PC or the Amiga answer the modem, then let me into the command line on either machine when I was on the road. When I was debugging PC programs, I'd use a debugging printf() that spit out the serial port, which I'd watch on the adjacent Amiga screen. - John From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 12:26:28 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:26:28 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461DFF75.5308.4ED097@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D12@sbs.jdfogg.com> <461DFF75.5308.4ED097@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12 Apr 2007 at 8:03, James Fogg wrote: > > > I remember this! > > It was a multi user MS-DOS. It supported a number of 8 port serial cards > > of the same generation (Starcomm or something like that). You'd attach > > terminals to the serial board and run software that was written to run > > under PC-MOS. Medical office software was what I mostly saw on these > > systems. > > Perusing the installation manual, mention is made of a multiport > intelligent serial card (MAXPEED SS 8/M) interfacing to Wyse 60 > terminals. But then, other examples go on to use something called a > Maxtation SH 4/M adapter, which seems to be a card that interfaces 4 > Hercules MGA adapters and 4 PC keyboards, used as terminals. > > Then there's the VGNA, (Video Graphcs Network Adapter) that supports > two VGA monitors and keyboards. Up to 4 VGNAs per system is allowed. > > I've never heard of either of these adapters. > > Networking is mentioned, but is very sketchy. > > The latest CPU mentioned is a 486; disk partition sizes of up to > 628MB seem to be supported. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > I've seen it in several medical offices. We have two or three current customers who are working down accounts on older systems like that. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 12 03:03:20 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:03:20 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:57:40 PDT." <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704120803.JAA08002@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chris M said: > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > There's a built-in 3" (not 3.5") floppy drive with a > > WD chip (I think a > > 1170) to control it. And space for a second drive. > > It will drive a 3.5" floppy as b:, wondering if it > can do it as the a: drive also. I believe some people in the user's group did that. I had an external 5.25-inch floppy as drive c: so I could read disks written by 22-disk on my old pc. Only worked under cp/m or zcpr3 though, xtaldos couldn't handle it. While digging out some 3.5-inch floppies yesterday I came across my collection of 3-inch disks, a mixture of Eintein and Amstrad format ones, including CP/M 2.2, CP/M+, Pascal and Forth...perhaps I should offer them for 500 quid to whoever purchases the Eintein :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 12 12:18:45 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> Message-ID: <200704121734.NAA00371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It's interesting to note that another Apple-raised interface > theorist, Bruce Tognazzini, http://www.asktog.com/ believes (and > claims to have tested and proved) that keyboard-based, chording > shortcut users engage in a momentary lapse of consciousness in which > they recall and then position their hands for the keystroke, and that > although they *think* they're faster than a mouse, they're not. I suspect that this is true only when the keyboard gesture is relatively unfamiliar. Use the same gesture for the same function frequently and for a few years and I believe this aspect will completely disappear - I have certainly found this true for myself; when I create a new gesture for my own use, it takes a lot of use, but after it's had that "a lot of use", it becomes as reflexive, as subconscious, as deeply wired into my fingers, so to speak, as, say, the locations of the letters. In my favourite text editor, I no longer think about the keystrokes for performing routine functions; my consciousness decides to, say, delete-word backward, or save-file, and my fingers find the appropriate buttons without any further conscious action - just as I decide to type, say, "decide", and my fingers find the appropriate buttons in the appropriate order without further intervention from my conscious. Unless the studies in question specifically included people who had had years of experience with the gesture in question, in which case I would very much like to see a reference, because I want to read up on it. > See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s > Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently > reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was > faster than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that > mousing was faster than keyboarding. In the 80s? Then I feel quite sure none of the subjects had the years of experience I wrote of above. (Not that this is necessarily a problem with the study for the purposes for which it was done, which was presumably for mass-market users, most of which will be new to the system. Just that it invalidates the results when applied to people who *have* had that experience - that it's really measuring the effect of inexperience with inherently meaningless keyboard gestures versus the inherent meaningfulness of mouse genstures.) > His explanation for this is that deciding among abstract symbols is a > high-level cognitive function, and that this decision is not only > boring, but that the user experiences near-amnesia in the > approximately two seconds needed to remember the chord keystroke. *Two seconds*? Just to remember the keystroke?? *Definitely* unpracticed users! Even when using Windows (which I occasionally do at work), I can windows-R-return and get a command window up faster than the time it's supposed to take me to merely remember how to do it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 12:36:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:36:36 -0400 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> References: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> To assist you in managing your household, or Course! A home >>> computer would be, I imagine, a computer installed somewhere in a >>> closet or the basement >> Home computer: A system large enough to live inside, providing >> shelter, heating, and ventilation for the occupants. > > The computers here provide *ample* heating. But do you fit inside of them? Peace... Sridhar From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Thu Apr 12 12:36:58 2007 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:36:58 -0400 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <461E3449.8070504@pacbell.net> References: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <461E3449.8070504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <461E6E3A.6080206@blueskystudios.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Are you sure about that? Nick Tredennick, the architect (or maybe co > architect) of the 68000 left Motorola, went to work for IBM, and was > the architect of the "micro 370". The design and its evolution were > described in a book Tredennick wrote, Microprocessor Logic Design: The > Flowchart Method. > > I know nothing of the machine you have there, but I suspect it is > really using redundant copies of the micro 370 described in the book. > I've heard passing reference to this machine and have heard that it is > a 68000 CPU with modified microcode, but that isn't the case. They > have similarities at some level because of the era they were design > and because of Tredennick's contribution to both. > > Perhaps you are write and there was more than one micro 370 project, > but I thought I'd mention the piece of the puzzle that I know a little > about. Having worked on the IBM Micro/370 project, and having the one and only ever working Micro/370 chip, I can assure you that the XT/370 card predates the Micro/370. The Micro/370 is mounted on a prototype version (Augusta Sr.) of what would have become the AT/370 card, had the project not been canned. So you were definitely on the right track, when you guessed it could have been on the XT/370. I think that those chips were both 68000's with modified microcode -- one with major changes and one with minor changes. -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 12:45:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:45:37 -0400 Subject: Worlds first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704121648.MAA29910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <581365.63328.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200704121648.MAA29910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <461E7041.5060505@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > If it were *my* house, I'd sure rather trust the job to a Z80 than the > latest Wintel trash! One of my best buds paid me to build a system for his new house some time ago. I used a NetBSD box. In the last three years, it's only needed a kick in the pants two or three times. Although, I am thinking of upgrading the hardware and OS now. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 12:46:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:46:07 -0700 Subject: Worlds first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704121648.MAA29910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <581365.63328.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <200704121648.MAA29910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <461E0DEF.26484.875E84@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 12:38, der Mouse wrote: > Nothing is perfect, of course. But for a lot of people, the additional > comfort and convenience are worth the risk. (I'm one of them, or would > be if I had the round tuits to rewire my place suitably.) My idea of a home computer is one that will wash the windows, clean the bathroom, vacuum the floor, make the bed and pick up after the dogs. When the power at home goes out for more than an hour or two, I fire up the woodstove and get out the oil lamps. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Apr 12 12:56:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:56:17 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: Pete writes: >> FBOFW, modern "free" *nix ports tend to use gcc, and gcc is >> such a resource hog for anything smaller than a VAX. Even on >> a VAX it's colossaly slow. > > Augh....any idea how it fares on, say, Sun or SGI machines? GCC runs OK on SGIs, provided that you have a version that coexists with the version of IRIX that you're running (later (3.2+) versions don't like pre-5 IRIXes. GCC will likely be quite unsatisfactory, though, because the optimization on MIPS machines is not very good, and especially bad with 2.x versions. Pre 3.4 versions don't play nicely with MIPSpro/MIPSCC object code, either. SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will probably have to use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are both hard to come by and nodelocked. POWER/PowerPC is probably the best of the RISCs as far as GCC support goes. Apple's adoption of gcc for System 10 led to a number of improvements in the code generator for PPC. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Apr 12 12:48:47 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:48:47 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070412133819.056bc908@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that jvdg at sparcpark.net may have mentioned these words: >A windowed environment is a GUI, yes? No. Ontopically, on my Tandy Color Computer 3, there's an operating system called OS-9 (and a still updated open-source version, NitrOS-9) which has access to multiple text windows (and multiple pages of these, which you can select with the 'Clear' key) but does not have any graphical anything built into the OS. Offtopically, on Linux, if you build the right libraries (JPEG/GIF/PNG, etc.), you can build a graphical browser called links that when called with the -g option, will give you a full graphical user interface (mouse pointer, displays pictures, etc...) but is not windowed. No tabbed browsing, no popups - it basically takes over the framebuffer & shows graphics, but it doesn't rely on X and you can't even run more than one instance of it (at least on my machine, it b0rks if you try to alt-Fx into a different text window and you have to kill -9 the process) You can quite easily have one or the other without lumping them together. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ray at arachelian.com Thu Apr 12 13:18:27 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:18:27 -0400 Subject: What's going on with 68kmla.net? In-Reply-To: <00ee01c77b1d$7bd5b6a0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0704091920s13bb96f3j7e4f490e8f9cb0f1@mail.gmail.com> <00ee01c77b1d$7bd5b6a0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <461E77F3.2070706@arachelian.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Server issues I guess from talking to one of the owners. How many people > here are members? > > They've put up a sadmac icon page. :-) So that's better than the default vDeck or whatever hosting page that they've had. I take it that means they're rebuilding... wish there was some text there. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 12 13:21:58 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:21:58 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704121734.NAA00371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> <200704121734.NAA00371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412131704.06846c18@mail> At 12:18 PM 4/12/2007, der Mouse wrote: >*Two seconds*? Just to remember the keystroke?? *Definitely* >unpracticed users! Even when using Windows (which I occasionally do at >work), I can windows-R-return and get a command window up faster than >the time it's supposed to take me to merely remember how to do it. No doubt there will be a standard distribution of experience and elapsed times, as well as many other subtle differences. I don't think it takes years to learn and rely on chords and function key shortcuts. Months or weeks, maybe, if you used them all day. I'd also argue that there's an angle of physical-based memory involved, too. My fingers remember CTRL/X CTRL/C CTRL/V because I'm cutting, copying and pasting while typing, but I also have a gestural memory corresponding to the location of various pop-up contextual menus within other apps. I would hope there have been more studies since Apple's. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 13:49:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:49:38 -0400 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> References: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The computers here provide *ample* heating. > > But do you fit inside of them? Do what the cat does and sleep on top. -ethan From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 12 13:58:52 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:58:52 -0500 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <461E6E3A.6080206@blueskystudios.com> References: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <461E3449.8070504@pacbell.net> <461E6E3A.6080206@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <461E816C.2070407@pacbell.net> Richard Hadsell wrote: ... > Having worked on the IBM Micro/370 project, and having the one and only > ever working Micro/370 chip, I can assure you that the XT/370 card > predates the Micro/370. The Micro/370 is mounted on a prototype version > (Augusta Sr.) of what would have become the AT/370 card, had the project > not been canned. ... That is very interesting information -- and it clears up the confusion, at least in my head, about the two different stories that I had heard. Both a true! Is Nick Tredennick really as much a crank as he comes across in his writing? No, I don't expect you to answer. :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 14:21:48 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:21:48 -0400 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <461E86CC.2010107@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > The computers here provide *ample* heating. >> >> But do you fit inside of them? > > Do what the cat does and sleep on top. It doesn't keep the rain off, though. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 12 14:32:53 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of > something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened > the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like > it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I > appear to have a 5 user version. > > Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. PC-MOS was widely used to implement point-of-sale systems for smaller stores that otherwise couldn't afford, say, a microVAX. I once worked at a pizza place that used it. That system served Wyse terminals and receipt printers through a Digiboard octopus. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From redodd at comcast.net Thu Apr 12 14:37:13 2007 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:37:13 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 TurboROM & KayPLUS rom problems Message-ID: <005301c77d39$f869f550$ad00a8c0@core2duo> Hello all, I have a Kaypro 10 that works pretty good. The hard drive is a Seagate ST212 10meg that is getting very noisy and gives read errors now and then. I have been playing with the Advent TurboROM and KayPLUS rom upgrades with no luck. All testing that I have done with both roms has been with the original ST212, an ST251, an ST277 and a Mitsubishi MR535, all with the same bad results. I have verified the eproms many times so they match the images that I've downloaded from the net. I got the KayPLUS rom from here: http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm and I've gotten the turbo rom from 3 sources that all match what you see here: ftp://ftp.mrynet.com/pub/os/Kaypro/Private-Images/TROM34/ When I use the KayPLUS rom with the prescribed boot disk etc. as per instructions, the machine boots but doesn't seem to see the hard drive. The led on the hd never even blinks. If I run HDCNFG.COM to setup the hard drive, the machine hangs. Another person has verified this also. So my first question is: Has anyone gotten this rom to work? When I put the TurboROM in, I get some very different results. The screen has the initial Turbo welcome screen and the machine hangs there. The led on the hard drive is always on. The floppy never tries to boot. If I disconnect the data & signal cables from the hard drive, it boots from the floppy after 25 seconds just like the manual says. If I disconnect the 49 pin cable from J9 (the hard drive connector) on the motherboard, the machine boots almost instantly. It seems to be looking at the hd but doesn't like what it sees. Other people have said that this copy of the rom works. So my second question is: Has anyone else run into this problem or what can be done to fix this? Her's a link to some pictures of the mess. http://home.comcast.net/~redodd/turbo.zip Thanks a lot. Ralph From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 12 15:47:26 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:47:26 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412131704.06846c18@mail> References: <200704121734.NAA00371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200704121948.l3CJmtDP011925@hosting.monisys.ca> > At 12:18 PM 4/12/2007, der Mouse wrote: > >*Two seconds*? Just to remember the keystroke?? *Definitely* > >unpracticed users! Even when using Windows (which I occasionally do at > >work), I can windows-R-return and get a command window up faster than > >the time it's supposed to take me to merely remember how to do it. > > No doubt there will be a standard distribution of experience > and elapsed times, as well as many other subtle differences. > I don't think it takes years to learn and rely on chords and > function key shortcuts. Months or weeks, maybe, if you used > them all day. I'd also argue that there's an angle of physical-based > memory involved, too. My fingers remember CTRL/X CTRL/C CTRL/V because > I'm cutting, copying and pasting while typing, but I also have > a gestural memory corresponding to the location of various > pop-up contextual menus within other apps. > > I would hope there have been more studies since Apple's. Two seconds is hogwash - when you use an editor daily, it gets into your blood, and you have a hard time NOT using those keystrokes automatically when you are in another environment. And where is the mention of users time taken to determine which of a zillion little icons to click on (I often have to "hover" over them until the description pops up) - or the time wasted when you "miss" a section on a drop-down menu (or closely spaced icons) and have to recover from it. It's been my observation that such "studies" are typically performed by a group of GUI supportors with some of them taking the mouse, and the others taking a list of command-keys which they have to keep looking at (hence the two seconds). Often the task measured is some lookup function, not involving extensive keyboard entry (where letting go and re-acquiring the mouse gets tedious). Not surprisingly, the results show that the mouse is vastly superiour and we should all immediately remove the cursor and control keys from our keyboards. In case you guys haven't figured it out yet - pretty much anything can be measured in such a way that it appears to be superiour to anything else. Dave Dilbert: Our products are killing people. Pointy haired guy: No, upper management will not like thats let me think.... Pointy haired guy: There's been a decline in unsatisfied customers! -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 14:53:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:53:34 -0700 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <461E816C.2070407@pacbell.net> References: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <461E6E3A.6080206@blueskystudios.com>, <461E816C.2070407@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <461E2BCE.30062.FC0B5D@cclist.sydex.com> > Richard Hadsell wrote: > ... > > Having worked on the IBM Micro/370 project, and having the one and only > > ever working Micro/370 chip, I can assure you that the XT/370 card > > predates the Micro/370. The Micro/370 is mounted on a prototype version > > (Augusta Sr.) of what would have become the AT/370 card, had the project > > not been canned. Does anyone on the list collect non-IBM S/360 or S/370 "clones"? While I don't expect to see a Spectrola still around, there was a firm called Two-Pi that in the early 80's was successful enough to be purchased by Four Phase. Not physically huge, IIRC--and a great pun on a name. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 12 15:05:19 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:05:19 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704121948.l3CJmtDP011925@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704121734.NAA00371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200704121948.l3CJmtDP011925@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412150301.06a3bf20@mail> At 03:47 PM 4/12/2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >In case you guys haven't figured it out yet - pretty much anything can >be measured in such a way that it appears to be superiour to anything else. All we need to do is find an alternative study that watched 20-year 'vi' and Emacs users? Computer-human interaction has been studied for quite a while; I don't know enough about it to quote chapter and verse, though. I question Tog's "$50 million dollar study" just as much. That's a lot of lettuce. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 15:24:16 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412150301.06a3bf20@mail> from John Foust at "Apr 12, 7 03:05:19 pm" Message-ID: <200704122024.l3CKOGVf012966@floodgap.com> > I question Tog's "$50 million dollar study" just as much. > That's a lot of lettuce. On the other hand, Apple doesn't exactly do cost-economical anything. -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If there was a hole, I would jump into it. -- Gackt Camui ------------------ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 12 15:26:06 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:26:06 -0700 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated Message-ID: <461E95DE.2010204@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone on the list collect non-IBM S/360 or S/370 "clones"? > there was a firm called Two-Pi that in the early 80's was successful > enough to be purchased by Four Phase. CHM has an Amdahl 470 and a Siemens 4004 (RCA Spectra). There were lots of people who built byte-oriented machines with instruction sets similar to the 360 and I know there are people who have Interdata, and Univac 9x00 machines. Memorex built a 16 bit 360 like machine, and I have some docs and software for that. The artifacts of these sorts of machines haven't been preserved very well. Same for Burroughs, Univac and NCR (business as opposed to scientific computers). From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 12 15:27:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:27:01 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <5EEAAF46-45E7-41FD-8279-8C595FA149AE@neurotica.com> On Apr 12, 2007, at 2:38 AM, David W. Erhart wrote: >> I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of >> something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened >> the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like >> it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. I >> appear to have a 5 user version. >> >> Anyone familiar with this animal? The version is 4.2. > > Sounds like the PC-MOS I used in the mid-80's to build a multi-user > system using an IBM PC/AT with an expansion box that had one CGA > card per user. The expansion box had special cables for monitor > and keyboard (thick & bulky). This let me run DBase III, Wordstar > 2000, etc. in an office for up to eight stations. Each station > appeared to have the PC/AT to itself. Worked really well. > > I wonder if I was using the same PC-MOS but a very early version. My office in 1988/1989 used a product called "VM/386 Multiuser" which did a similar thing, using Wyse terminals. Most DOS apps worked very well, and it was fast. It used the virtual '86 mode of the 80386 processor. We ran it on a cached 386DX/25 with three terminals. A very different sort of thing, and long after PC-MOS, but worth mentioning. I'd love to find a copy of that again to play with; it was good stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spc at conman.org Thu Apr 12 15:26:58 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:26:58 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on "classic" systems] In-Reply-To: <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20070410150332.GB1884@darwin.ugr.es> <12915FD8-864C-4D2C-800D-A898A7AF8C12@neurotica.com> <20070411071119.GG4343@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <20070412202658.GD21645@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Angel Martin Alganza once stated: > > Here it's when it (finally) comes my idea... I've been trying to get > some modern Unix variant on my 486 notebook (no CD, PCMCIA NIC) for > quite some time now hithout enough (to my likings) success. It's got > 16MB RAM, but, for some reason, it recognises only 12. And, of course, > 12MB is not enough to run any modern installer. I've ended up running a > Linux distribution called Small Linux on it, but again, it's an old, > poorly maintained distribution running an old Linux kernel. You could do what I did to install Linux on a 4MB RAM 120M harddrive laptop computer---find a Linux distro that will boot (I used Tom's Root Boot disk and even then it barely ran). The steps I ran through went something like this: On the target computer, I could run a shell, fdisk, mkfs and dd. That was enough to get started. Run fdisk. On the machine I was working on, two partitions: 112M and 8M. Format the 8M as a filesystem and mount it. On a full Linux system, get some needed tools like tar, dd to a floppy. Move to target system, and dd tar off to 8M partition. So likewise with some other tools. On full system, I created a 112M file, and mounted it. Formatted it, and put kernel, init, and a small /bin. unmount it. tar the file and dd to floppy. On target tar xzcf /dev/fd0 | dd of=/dev/hda1 reboot target. Once rebooted, reformat 8M for swap and enable it. Keep using the floppy to get stuff over. Took a few hours, but I got it done. -spc (Wasn't the hardest install I did though ... ) From kenzolist at counterfolk.com Thu Apr 12 15:33:11 2007 From: kenzolist at counterfolk.com (Ken) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:33:11 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.01248466968536.351.269371509552@1.0001176434866> At 11:02 PM 4/11/2007 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I was looking for something else and ran across a two-binder set of >something called "PC-MOS" by The Software Link, circa 1992. I opened >the shrinkwrap on the nstallation manual and the thing looks like >it's a multi-user version of MS-DOS, talking to terminals. Based on everyone else's descriptions, I'm almost certain this is something I ran into. When I got involved with my college's newspaper in 1992, working in the photography department, I'd sometimes hear the people in the newsroom refer to "the mainframe," which is where they typed stories. They were using networked Macintoshes for page layout. (In photo, we were rolling film from bulk canisters, developing it, and making prints on a photo enlarger. By the time I'd gotten involved, they had just stopped using the "stat machine" (which would make line-screened images of the photo prints, suitable for pasting onto the final newspaper pages that were subsequently photographed by our publisher) and were now scanning the printed photos into a computer using a flatbed scanner connected to a Macintosh. Final newspaper pages were still partially pasted together, and picked up by our publisher for photographing.) One day, I caught wind of a crisis in the newsroom: "The mainframe is down!" Having had worked with mainframes (and minis and PC's...) since I was 6 or 7, I decided to investigate to see if I could help out. What I discovered were these terminals running an MS-DOS-based word processor (I don't remember which one - was probably WordPerfect, and certainly not Wordstar), all hooked up to a single IBM PC that had a set of about 5 interface cards driving those terminals. Mainframe indeed! I don't remember what the problem was, but it was something that my knowledge of MS-DOS made easy to solve. While I was repairing it, I took the opportunity to inform them that they most certainly were not using a mainframe. I suspect that, prior to acquiring this machine, they were using terminals connected to one of the campus systems (probably the VAX), and so the nomenclature and concept had carried over from then. By the next year, they had retired the multi-user PC, and were just using networked Mac SE's for word processing. (By '96 they were scanning negatives into the computer instead of prints, and by '97 they were sending an electronic document to the publisher instead of printed pages. Ah, where's the fun gone...) - Ken From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 15:34:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461D9F4B.9010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <752939.13791.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Interesting. I'm assuming from this statement that you haven't >>> been in many datacenters. >> Or used a mainframe. Nope. Have. Not to any large degree. Simply logging in and typing FORTRAN stuph, compiling, and waiting for the batch to spit out my printout. Was fun :) To read into my statement that there's no place for, or that I particularly loathe command line stuff is simply incorrect. But the suggestion that I should despise guis because many identify such with M$ is patently absurd. I'm not speaking for anyone in particular, just that I feel oftentimes that's the underlying sentiment. Prior to it's widespread acceptance (Windoze), the popular expression amongst "geeks" of that period was "I don't do windows!". Well...they weren't doing much of anything other then peecee stuff to realize there was more out there. And I'm not simply talking about Macs either. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 5 15:35:21 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:35:21 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) In-Reply-To: <0JGD00GIX8NRCZ6G@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGD00GIX8NRCZ6G@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46155D89.6050908@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >So happens one of my "small" pdp-11s uses a Tu58. the system is a BA-11V >with an 11/23 256k of ram, DLV11J and MRV11 rom(boot). Takes 10 minutes >to boot, setup VM: then copy key files to and reboot. After that it's >pretty decent even if I have to access a file on tape. > >Everytime I runs it with a bunch of kids of the current PC generations >they go gaga and comment on how slow then I explain the amount of ram and >storage then they are amazed it can be a functional machine with so little. >They can't imagine a useful machine with 32kW of ram and 256kb of storage. > > Jerome Fine replies: At some time or other, I saw a VT103 with dual TU-58 drives in the bottom. As noted, it took about the lunch break to boot. However, a VT103 can actually support a PDP-11/73 with all 4 MBytes of memory if the backplane is upgraded to 22 bits. The other 2 quad slots can have items like a TQK70, a DHQ11 and an RQD11-EC which allows up to 4 * EDSI hard drives. In the case of ESDI hard drives, I STRONGLY suggest used a separate power supply. Otherwise, an RQDX3 with an RD51 can also be used and it is then possible to place the RD51 under the tube. At that point, you can play games with those PC generation of kids and tell that that you don't even need a computer, just a monitor and keyboard! If you use a dual PDP-11/73 or PDP-11/23 with a DLV11-J (and no boot ROMs on the CPU), then the SIGMA controllers are very handy, either a dual MFM (or ESDI) version or the quad ESDI version. Again, with the dual MFM version, an RD51 (ST412) can be placed under the tube and use the internal power supply of the VT103. It must be about 20 years ago that I did this conversion of the RD51 hard drive under the tube. I think I still have the backup VT103, but without any boards or a suitable controller. With any ESDI drives, limit the use of the internal power supply of the VT103 to a single drive for less than 10 seconds which would probably be enough to boot and copy any needed files to the VM: device. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 15:36:49 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <20070412133507.A23237@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, David W. Erhart wrote: > Sounds like the PC-MOS I used in the mid-80's to build a multi-user > system using an IBM PC/AT with an expansion box that had one CGA card > per user. The expansion box had special cables for monitor and keyboard > (thick & bulky). This let me run DBase III, Wordstar 2000, etc. in an > office for up to eight stations. Each station appeared to have the > PC/AT to itself. Worked really well. (WORDSTAR on 1/8 of an 8MHz AT == WORD on 500MHz Pentium) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 15:46:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> Message-ID: <751741.13303.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 11:10 PM 5/22/01 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' > Conner wrote: > >In his interview in ``Programmers at Work,'' he > stated he didn't care for > >mice at all, as it forces you to relocate your > hands from the keyboard to > >the mouse, and that most navigation could be done > faster via the keyboard > >than with a mouse [3]. This is precisely the reason I prefer using a laptop with a trackpad thing. Although your hand indeed has to leave the k/b, it don't have to go far. If you have a prehensile enough thumb LOL, it doesn't have to leave at all... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 15:52:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:52:44 -0400 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <461E2BCE.30062.FC0B5D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <461E6E3A.6080206@blueskystudios.com>, <461E816C.2070407@pacbell.net> <461E2BCE.30062.FC0B5D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461E9C1C.4000009@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Having worked on the IBM Micro/370 project, and having the one and only >>> ever working Micro/370 chip, I can assure you that the XT/370 card >>> predates the Micro/370. The Micro/370 is mounted on a prototype version >>> (Augusta Sr.) of what would have become the AT/370 card, had the project >>> not been canned. > > Does anyone on the list collect non-IBM S/360 or S/370 "clones"? > While I don't expect to see a Spectrola still around, there was a > firm called Two-Pi that in the early 80's was successful enough to be > purchased by Four Phase. Not physically huge, IIRC--and a great pun > on a name. I once had a line on an Amdahl 5860. I didn't have the time or money back then to get it, but now I'm kicking myself for not having gotten it. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 16:06:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:06:56 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) In-Reply-To: <46155D89.6050908@compsys.to> References: <0JGD00GIX8NRCZ6G@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <46155D89.6050908@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 4/5/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > At some time or other, I saw a VT103 with dual TU-58 > drives in the bottom. I have one in the attic. I've never tried to boot from the TU58s, but I have used them. > However, a VT103 can actually support a PDP-11/73 > with all 4 MBytes of memory if the backplane is > upgraded to 22 bits. The other 2 quad slots can > have items like a TQK70, a DHQ11 and an RQD11-EC > which allows up to 4 * EDSI hard drives. I've always wanted to load mine up like that - so far, all I've thrown in there is a KDF11B, some memory, an RLV12, and a BDV11... not much room left. > In the case of ESDI hard drives, I STRONGLY suggest > used a separate power supply. Otherwise, an > RQDX3 with an RD51 can also be used and it is > then possible to place the RD51 under the tube. I'd still recommend an external PSU for any 5.25" disk. Perhaps if you had a SCSI controller and 3.5" disk it wouldn't be bad. > At that point, you can play games with those PC > generation of kids and tell that that you don't > even need a computer, just a monitor and keyboard! I think the whirring of the drive might give the secret away, that, or the seek noises. Still a fun trick to pull, though, presuming the audience has ever seen a dumb terminal before. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 12 16:07:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:07:04 -0400 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <20070412133507.A23237@shell.lmi.net> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <20070412133507.A23237@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Sounds like the PC-MOS I used in the mid-80's to build a multi-user >> system using an IBM PC/AT with an expansion box that had one CGA card >> per user. The expansion box had special cables for monitor and >> keyboard >> (thick & bulky). This let me run DBase III, Wordstar 2000, etc. >> in an >> office for up to eight stations. Each station appeared to have the >> PC/AT to itself. Worked really well. > > (WORDSTAR on 1/8 of an 8MHz AT == WORD on 500MHz Pentium) Yep. Thanks, Microsoft. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 12:48:02 2007 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... Message-ID: <992560.50964.qm@web60811.mail.yahoo.com> In previous messages, Josh Dersch said: > Hi all -- > > Recently picked up a TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" (model 26-4151) and > the associated interface board, with the intent of hooking this up to my > TRS-80 Model 16. > On further investigation, it appears that the 26-4151 is a Secondary > drive, which makes me curious as to whether this effort is going to be > ultimately fruitless. So, without further ado, here's the questions I have: > > 1. Is it possible to get this secondary drive working as a primary, or > am I up a creek without having a primary drive (or extra magic hardware > in the drive I have.) > 2. If I can work around #1, I need to know the pinouts of the drive and > the controller board since I do not have a cable to connect the two. > The controller has a 50-pin edge connector and the drive has three > connectors -- 2 50-pin (labeled "Control") and one 20-pin (labeled "Data"). > a. And as a follow on to #2, where would you suggest getting the > parts and tools necessary to build the aforementioned cable? I've never > constructed such a cable, and I'll have need to do so again in the > future (need to assemble some long-ish ESDI cables for my PDP 11/73...) > > Thanks for any suggestions, > Josh Josh... The "secondary" drive is an 8 inch hard drive. It is VERY similar to the 5.25 MFM drives we have all used on various machines, but there are a couple of differences: 1) The 'control' connector is 50 pins, not 34. This is the 'common' connector that is connected to every drive. 2) The 'data' connector (both are 20 pins) uses positive and negative voltages (a 10 volt swing) for the differential data. Some drives even decode the clock from the data stream, or use the clock to generate the data stream used on the drive. 3) The 8 inch drives use +24 volts, +5 volts, and -5 volts, and some drives use line voltage (120v/220v, etc.) for the motor drive. 4) The rotational speed of the disk is 3000 RPM, whereas the 5.25 drive is 3600 rpm. This means that the data rate for MFM is lower for the 8 inch drive (usually the crystal is 8.666 MHz, not 10 MHz for the same rotational bit density). That being the case, adapters can be made, if you can re-clock the drive controller. Now back to the TRS-80 problem at hand. The box you have is just a container for the drive proper. I doubt that much more is inside the box than the drive and a power supply. The controller is in the "primary" drive box, and is similar in function to a PC's controller at the register level (both were designed by Western Digital). I don't remember if the TRS-80 used 256 byte sectors, or 512 (what the PC uses) byte sectors. It needed an interface board that plugged in the backplane of the Model 16. I built up a "primary" disk box myself using the controller that works with the 5.25 inch drives, using my own 5.25 inch drives. The controller was limited to no more than 8 heads due to the way it was designed (they hadn't made XT2190's yet!). It worked OK. Later on in the Model 16/6000 time span, they built up a single board that plugged into the backplane of the TRS-80 Model 16 (6000) that was the full controller. By that time the only drives being produced were 5.25 inch ones, so that conformed to that interface (34 Pin control, 20 Pin data). It is interesting to note that the drives used by Radio Shack had another "feature" in that they connected a "drive selected" line on the Data connector. This was used so that they didn't need to worry about where they were plugged in. If the connector was "selected" (had the true signal), it had the data. If you get a controller this may need to be taken into account. Other than that, you have a "nice box". Good luck. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From michaelryan at mindspring.com Thu Apr 12 13:33:42 2007 From: michaelryan at mindspring.com (Michael A. Ryan) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PC/370 implementation Message-ID: <20581370.1176402822843.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jim Battle wrote: >Are you sure about that? Nick Tredennick, the architect (or maybe co >architect) of the 68000 left Motorola, went to work for IBM, and was the >architect of the "micro 370". The design and its evolution were >described in a book Tredennick wrote, Microprocessor Logic Design: The >Flowchart Method. The source for my information is the IBM Systems Journal, Vol 23, No 3 from 1984. >From page 245: "After studying several types of microprocessors to identify one architecturally suitable as a base for System/370, IBM selected the Motorola MC68000 microprocessor and began working with Motorola engineers to develop a customized microprocessor. At IBM's site in Endicott, New York, a group in the engineering organization wrote the internal microcode which allowed the device to directly execute a large subset of the commercial System/370 instructions." Later in the article, they just call it the "custom" processor. It sounds like the same part could be an MC68000 or the S/370 depending on microcode load; when they say 'the device,' I believe they are referring to the aforementioned MC68000. Thanks, Mike From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu Apr 12 16:25:02 2007 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:25:02 +0200 Subject: Olivetti 101 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00cb01c77d49$089781e0$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> > There are some programming cards for a Olivetti 101 on ebay. > It seem like I saw someone on this list that either has one > or wanted one. It would be a shame to see these cards lost > without someone or a museum getting them. Dwight Hi Dwight, can you post the link to this auction ? I have one Programma 101 in my museum and another hardly damaged, but few magnetic cards. Thanks Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 16:25:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:25:07 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <751741.13303.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail>, <751741.13303.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <461E4143.23713.14FDD7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 13:46, Chris M wrote: > This is precisely the reason I prefer using a laptop > with a trackpad thing. Although your hand indeed has > to leave the k/b, it don't have to go far. If you have > a prehensile enough thumb LOL, it doesn't have to > leave at all... Anything that has you leave the home key position is not desirable. That was the attraction of Wordstar (at least to those of us who learned to type on an Underwood). Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 16:26:13 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461E86CC.2010107@gmail.com> References: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> <461E86CC.2010107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070412142520.H23237@shell.lmi.net> > > Do what the cat does and sleep on top. On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It doesn't keep the rain off, though. 8-) If you are not big enough to keep the rain off of your computer, invite a friend or two to join you. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 13:48:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:48:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <20070411150553.G68787@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 11, 7 03:06:45 pm Message-ID: > Oh, ye of little faith. The guy from the future who was looking for the > 5100 took one of those back in time to around 1066. Why do people always forget the HP9830? It was 2 years before the IBM5100, and while HP called it a calculator, it was a full-blown desktop computer with up to 16K bytes of RAM running BASIC from ROM. OK, it had a 1-line alphanumeric LED display, not the CRT that the IBM5100 used, but I don't think that's enough reason to forget it :-) (SOrry, I'm biased. I love the HP 98x0 machines...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 13:58:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:58:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <370858.34617.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 11, 7 03:57:40 pm Message-ID: > Ok so the dude is a sheister. What should then be > known as the first home computer? Funny, I haven't the > wherewithal to even make a guess at this particular > moment. This is a recurrnet thread here.... I depends on how you define 'home' and 'computer'... > > 64K of RAM, with a 16K > > ROM that can replace part of the RAM > > swap in or out IOWs? Yes. I am trying to rememebr the details -- I suppose I could haev a hunt for the schematics... It's something like there's an output port that when you write to it it toggles a flip-flop. In one state you have 64K of RAM. In the other state you have 32K of RAM in the top half of the processor's address spave, the bottom 32K is ROM (the standard 16K system ROM and the empty socket alongside it). It clearly states out in the second mode after a reset. > > > There's a built-in 3" (not 3.5") floppy drive with a > > WD chip (I think a > > 1170) to control it. And space for a second drive. > > It will drive a 3.5" floppy as b:, wondering if it > can do it as the a: drive also. > No reason why not. The disk interface is pretty standard. It's the normal 34 pin conenctor, signals as you'd expect them. I think the standard drive is single-head 40 cylinder, I have no idea how easy it is to get the OS to recognise 2 heads and/or more cylinders. > > 'Tube' is a > > pun on 'bus', both > > being public transport systems in London) > > I was under the impression Tube was a reference to a > subway (undeground railway). Ah well... It is. A nunderground railway is surely a public transport system. Acorn called their second-processor interface the 'Tube'. Partly to give the idea of a pipe down which you could shove data between the 2 processors, and partly because Tube == underground railway == alternative to a bux (as a means of transporting people around London). Tatung called thge expansion bus on the Einstein the 'Pipe'. It was clearly a pun on 'Tube', although it had nothing to do with second processors (AFAIK there never was a second processor for the Einstein), it was just a standard Z80 system bus -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 14:00:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:00:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 12, 7 00:19:58 am Message-ID: > > I believe (though have not verified it myself since I utterly despise the > machines) that Sinclair used this technique in the early Spectrums; they, > apparently, simply disabled the faulty half of the DRAMs using jumpers on > the board. I beleive (although, like you I've not checked because, also like you, I have as little to do with Sinclair machines as possible) that early 48K SPectrums had 8 16K chips and 8 32K chips. The latter were half-good 64K chips, there was a link (or maybe a resistor) on the PCB to select which half would be used. Needless to say all 8 chips had to ahve the same half good. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 16:06:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:06:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: <461D7F89.5020801@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Apr 11, 7 05:38:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all -- > > Recently picked up a TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" (model 26-4151) and > the associated interface board, with the intent of hooking this up to my > TRS-80 Model 16. > > On further investigation, it appears that the 26-4151 is a Secondary > drive, which makes me curious as to whether this effort is going to be > ultimately fruitless. So, without further ado, here's the questions I have: > > 1. Is it possible to get this secondary drive working as a primary, or > am I up a creek without having a primary drive (or extra magic hardware > in the drive I have.) I believe you've got problems... The host interface board is pretty simple, I think, just buffers and an address decoder. It talks (8 bit parallel data bus, register select lines, etc) to the controller board mounted inside the primary drive cabinet. This controller talks to the drives by an interface somewhat similar to ST506 (I don't think it _is_ ST506, though.), in that there's a control cable that links from the controller to all the drives and a separate data cable from the controller to each drive. The controller board can handle up to 4 drives, the one mountedin the primary cabinet and up to 3 more secondaries Without the cotnroller board (which is, IIRC, similar to a Western Digital thing), you are not going to get it working. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 12 15:39:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:39:48 -0300 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: <01C77D29.AF21AF60@MSE_D03> ------------------Original Message: >So to be clear, I am agreeing with the position that one can have >Windows outside of a GUI (and that one can have a GUI that lacks >windows, such as a CAD program), but in the mind of the masses, GUIs >== windows. >-ethan ------------------------------ And of course the mouse is irrelevant to this tiresome argument as well, since it was quite commonly used in plain old text-mode single-tasking non-windowed DOS (which could of course also have windows, multi-task and display graphics, so I guess DOS WAS a GUI after all...) Sheesh! The OP said all we need to know with "I was going by the *popular* definition of GUI/Windowed environment, not the strict one." Speaking of CAD, I remember being blown away by an early demo of AutoCAD running on an XT with two monitors; an MGA for the commands, etc. and a CGA (or was it an EGA) for the drawing. Of course there were $$$ boxes that could do this as well, but on a lowly XT? I was impressed (didn't take much in those days). m From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 16:37:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:37:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: <992560.50964.qm@web60811.mail.yahoo.com> from "Tom Watson" at Apr 12, 7 10:48:02 am Message-ID: > It is interesting to note that the drives used by Radio Shack had another > "feature" in that they connected a "drive selected" line on the Data connector. IIRC, ST412 drives are supposed to do that too. Not many controllers bother to look at that signal, but I've come across at least one that does (and thus it doesn't matter which order you plug the data cables in. I'm got a vague idea tha DMD did this too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 16:35:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:35:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070412133819.056bc908@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 12, 7 01:48:47 pm Message-ID: > Ontopically, on my Tandy Color Computer 3, there's an operating system > called OS-9 (and a still updated open-source version, NitrOS-9) which has I'm interested!. Can you give me a URL to start looking at, please. -tony From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Apr 12 17:06:25 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:06:25 +0100 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <6.01248466968536.351.269371509552@1.0001176434866> References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> <6.01248466968536.351.269371509552@1.0001176434866> Message-ID: <2f806cd70704121506l4ac2aeccn879690e9395308f1@mail.gmail.com> On 12/04/07, Ken wrote: [snip] > One day, I caught wind of a crisis in the newsroom: "The mainframe is down!" Having had worked with mainframes (and minis and PC's...) since I was 6 or 7, I decided to investigate to see if I could help out. > > What I discovered were these terminals running an MS-DOS-based word processor (I don't remember which one - was probably WordPerfect, and certainly not Wordstar), all hooked up to a single IBM PC that had a set of about 5 interface cards driving those terminals. Mainframe indeed! My last two employers were both resellers of an operating system called "BOS", later "Global System Manager". It originally did basically the same thing, [1] running multi-user via serial terminals, but on a vast range of hardware. It wasn't DOS, but basically an interpreted system that provided a virtual but consistent environment - 64K swap backed memory space per process (and up to 9 of them per physical terminal!) and the data //AND APPLICATIONS// could be copied over from one system to another without change, be it sometihng PC based, pdp-11, rs/6000 .. I should see if I've still got an old manual with a list of platforms in it.. software wise you were limited to accounting applications, some very basic office style apps, and some third party vertical markets (doctors systems, import control systems, etc). Company is still going, but I wonder if there is anybody preserving the old stuff... I know that when I was working in with them, a few years ago, they didn't have any of the real old stuff any more. [1]current version is just an app running under windows acting as a standalone environment.. http://www.oneoffice3000.com/g2000.asp From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Apr 12 17:20:28 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:20:28 +0100 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70704121506l4ac2aeccn879690e9395308f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <461D68EC.2438.5072526A@cclist.sydex.com> <6.01248466968536.351.269371509552@1.0001176434866> <2f806cd70704121506l4ac2aeccn879690e9395308f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70704121520p63944882s6e46d68d44350ac5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/04/07, Rob wrote: ... and what I meant to say when I started writing that (new baby scrambling my mind, though) was some of the host spec/user ratios I personally saw: 80486 /33 with 24 users 80386 /33 with 12 users 80286 with 8 users 8086 with 4 users baydel pdp-11 clone, sorry don't know other spec, with at least 48 users.. performance was always "quite good" althogh some reports could take some time to run! I don't think I ever saw more than 24 serial users on a single processor, but I've seen systems with far more ports (to accomocate printers.) Over 24 we'd usually put in two servers, networked (ARCNET). By, uh, 1995, ethernet was getting more common; I dealt with a couple of UNIX based systems (SCO) where we used telnet to login to the server, a few Novell systems (a seperate file server process ran on the novell fileserver, and a local interpreter ran the apps direct on PC workstations) and rather a lot of Windows based systems (fileserver/interpreter on an NT server, either telnet access or local interpreter, or both, talking to it.) With those, we could run an awful lot more users per server, and did, because the hardware available was so much more powerful now, and the apps were basically the same, not needing that much power. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 12 16:23:54 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:23:54 -0300 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: <01C77D2F.CF7C1920@MSE_D03> Since we're still pontificating: There's another aspect of the pros & cons of GUIs that I find particularly frustrating: trying to write instruction manuals or doing phone support when you have no idea or control over what the user's desktop looks like, which menu bars, buttons, shortcuts etc. are enabled or disabled, where they are, etc. Give me a "Press Control and Home; now Control, shift and end; now Control and C" over a "Do you have a menu bar on the top of the window you're in? The one that has the word EDIT in it? yes? Good; click on the word edit and then click on the word select. Did the window change colour? Good; now click on that word edit again, and this time click on the word copy..." any day... Particularly relevant right now since I just got off the phone after spending about 5 minutes walking a user through a problem with a fairly complex 150+ module menu-driven DOS program and then more than an hour taking them through a fairly simple routine Excel spreadsheet operation. m From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 12 17:33:08 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:33:08 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <20070412133507.A23237@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461EB3A4.2020101@pacbell.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 12, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Sounds like the PC-MOS I used in the mid-80's to build a multi-user >>> system using an IBM PC/AT with an expansion box that had one CGA card >>> per user. The expansion box had special cables for monitor and keyboard >>> (thick & bulky). This let me run DBase III, Wordstar 2000, etc. in an >>> office for up to eight stations. Each station appeared to have the >>> PC/AT to itself. Worked really well. >> >> (WORDSTAR on 1/8 of an 8MHz AT == WORD on 500MHz Pentium) > > Yep. Thanks, Microsoft. > > -Dave This is pretty silly. There is a lot to criticize microsoft for, but I don't think this is one of those things. It is just normal market forces. If MS could get as many $$ per copy selling wordstar, they'd do that since it would take a lot less money to develop and support. People like the promise of new doo-dads, even if they end up not using them. Is that something MS should take the blame for, or the customers who buy it? Also, word does stuff that wordstar never did, and yes, it comes at a cost. Word allows vastly superior control over layout than wordstar could. Perhaps *you* don't embed spreadsheets in word documents, but I (and others) often find it useful, vs having to say: please see blah.xls for proof. The real time spell checker is useful. Etc. Yes, nobody use more than 10-20% of the features, but there is a market slice using just about every one of them. I'm sure back in the day there were those who complained that wordstar was bloated and all one really needed was electric pencil. And then there were the old timers who complained about the screen oriented editors as being overkill and good old line editing was just fine. As a hardware analogy, many dolts have complained about how ugly the x86 instruction set is and that intel engineers are a bunch of incompetent hacks for not "fixing" it. Yet at each step of the way, it would have been ruinous for intel to break software compatibility with those ugly warts that they started with. The 8086 was a stop gap between the 8085 and the 432; intel had no way of guessing that it would be even 1% as successful as it has been. The fact that intel has kept the x86 instruction set competitive despite the warts in a testimony to their smarts (architecture, design, and fab process), not their stupidity. What were we discussing? :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 12 17:41:10 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:41:10 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704122024.l3CKOGVf012966@floodgap.com> References: <200704122024.l3CKOGVf012966@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <461EB586.9040402@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I question Tog's "$50 million dollar study" just as much. >> That's a lot of lettuce. > > On the other hand, Apple doesn't exactly do cost-economical anything. Except mouse buttons :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 12 18:00:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:00:45 -0400 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <461E2BCE.30062.FC0B5D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <18275169.1176330826119.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <461E6E3A.6080206@blueskystudios.com>, <461E816C.2070407@pacbell.net> <461E2BCE.30062.FC0B5D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Richard Hadsell wrote: >> ... >>> Having worked on the IBM Micro/370 project, and having the one >>> and only >>> ever working Micro/370 chip, I can assure you that the XT/370 card >>> predates the Micro/370. The Micro/370 is mounted on a prototype >>> version >>> (Augusta Sr.) of what would have become the AT/370 card, had the >>> project >>> not been canned. > > Does anyone on the list collect non-IBM S/360 or S/370 "clones"? Heh..I would if I could find any! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 18:31:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which Olivetti computer had 8" drives? Message-ID: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I'm told my mystery box was made by Olivetti. Remember the unknown box with the "10 inch" drives. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From onymouse at garlic.com Thu Apr 12 12:08:23 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:08:23 -0700 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <461D9972.4010502@compsys.to> References: <0JGA00BPT66PDW46@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <461D9972.4010502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <461E6787.8010602@garlic.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Allison wrote: > >> One last item The RD53 and RD54 drives run hot (around 35W) and >> lots of cooling was one way to insure they lasted longer. Heat is >> the enemy >> of those older drives and it is not unusual to find a system there >> the fans were dead or clogged and the drives failed.. >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > Heat is the enemy of every drive, some more than others. > Most current 3.5" multi-GB drives generate so little > internal heat that it is not a problem. > ??? I am finding the most recent drives are much hotter than older ones. I have a bunch of 3.5's under 10Gb that run way cooler than the newer, 10Gb++ lot. Three of my seven newest 30+Gb disks have already fried and died and one can't write anymore. I've had to liquid cool the survivors because airflow just won't work anymore without very cold air. -- jd fortune: cpu time/usefulness ratio too high -- core dumped. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 19:18:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <01C77D29.AF21AF60@MSE_D03> References: <01C77D29.AF21AF60@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20070412171359.N23237@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, M H Stein wrote: > Speaking of CAD, I remember being blown away by an early demo of > AutoCAD running on an XT with two monitors; an MGA for the > commands, etc. and a CGA (or was it an EGA) for the drawing. > Of course there were $$$ boxes that could do this as well, but on > a lowly XT? I was impressed (didn't take much in those days). The Wyse 700/Amdek 1280 was a popular choice for that, and other single tasking graphics. Yes, there were also Windoze 3.1 drivers for it. 1280 x 800 monochrome, using a dedicated card (which is often mistakenly thrown into piles of MDA or CGA cards.) 'Course every few years you needed to open it and tweak the controls to get enough brightness and contrast. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Apr 12 19:31:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:31:45 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! References: Message-ID: <004d01c77d63$1ddbd910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> It will drive a 3.5" floppy as b:, wondering if it >>can do it as the a: drive also. >> > > No reason why not. The disk interface is pretty standard. It's >the normal 34 pin conenctor, signals as you'd expect them.... I'm pretty certain I've seen more than one Einstein with the "A:" drive replaced by a 3.5" unit (and definitely one with two 3.5" drives). In fact, if I recall correctly, we had an Einstein in which the "A:" drive had been replaced with a 3.5" unit (for compatability with Spectrum disc units) at the software company I was working at in 1986; our "fearless leader" (and yes that was meant to be sarcastic) used his Einstein to cross-assemble code for the Spectrum. TTFN - Pete. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 20:00:02 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:00:02 -0700 Subject: Olivetti 101 In-Reply-To: <00cb01c77d49$089781e0$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> Message-ID: >From: "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts'" >Subject: RE: Olivetti 101 >Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:25:02 +0200 > > > There are some programming cards for a Olivetti 101 on ebay. > > It seem like I saw someone on this list that either has one > > or wanted one. It would be a shame to see these cards lost > > without someone or a museum getting them. Dwight > >Hi Dwight, >can you post the link to this auction ? >I have one Programma 101 in my museum and another hardly damaged, but >few magnetic cards. > >Thanks > >Alberto > Hi Alberto It sounds like you are the perfect person for these. They are iten# 200097833850 I hope you win. I'd love to have a 101 or a Diehl Computron. Both are classic calculators in that they were programmable. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 20:05:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:05:42 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <01C77D29.AF21AF60@MSE_D03> References: <01C77D29.AF21AF60@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <461E74F6.21155.219CE5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 17:39, M H Stein wrote: >...I was impressed (didn't take much in those days). It takes even less to impress me nowadays. For example, witnessing someone who can read the phone book without a magnifying glass... :-) Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 20:07:39 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:07:39 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > > > > Hi all -- > > > > Recently picked up a TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" (model 26-4151) and > > the associated interface board, with the intent of hooking this up to my > > TRS-80 Model 16. > > > > On further investigation, it appears that the 26-4151 is a Secondary > > drive, which makes me curious as to whether this effort is going to be > > ultimately fruitless. So, without further ado, here's the questions I >have: > > > > 1. Is it possible to get this secondary drive working as a primary, or > > am I up a creek without having a primary drive (or extra magic hardware > > in the drive I have.) > >I believe you've got problems... The host interface board is pretty >simple, I think, just buffers and an address decoder. It talks (8 bit >parallel data bus, register select lines, etc) to the controller board >mounted inside the primary drive cabinet. This controller talks to the >drives by an interface somewhat similar to ST506 (I don't think it _is_ >ST506, though.), in that there's a control cable that links from the >controller to all the drives and a separate data cable from the >controller to each drive. > >The controller board can handle up to 4 drives, the one mountedin the >primary cabinet and up to 3 more secondaries > >Without the cotnroller board (which is, IIRC, similar to a Western >Digital thing), you are not going to get it working. > >-tony > Hi Tony is most likely right but the interface is compatible w/ ST506, I'm currently running a ST251 as a 10Meg drive on the TRS-80 controller ( not in a TRS-80 invironment ). As I stated, the WD1000 will work fine but needs a simple address decoder. It may not work with the lights and switches on the cabinet but it will work with the drive. If you like, I can find a seller ( not ebay ) that has several WD1000's for sale. I have no idea the price but they are suppose to be working. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.? Enter to win today. http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 20:38:07 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461EB586.9040402@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Apr 12, 7 05:41:10 pm" Message-ID: <200704130138.l3D1c7Vr011836@floodgap.com> > > > I question Tog's "$50 million dollar study" just as much. > > > That's a lot of lettuce. > > On the other hand, Apple doesn't exactly do cost-economical anything. > Except mouse buttons :) Nothing economical about that one either. The mouse costs twice as much and until recently had half the buttons. -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 20:44:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:44:53 -0700 Subject: floppy media failure Message-ID: >From: "Dave Dunfield" > > >Thinking about it some more, the > > loading of the head against the surface on both sides is almost >certainly > > critical, so this wouldn't work :( > >I've often wondered if one could make up a drive with less head pressure, >possibly using some additional electronics to clean up the signal - I've >had a few systems come in where people wanted the data recovered, and >they've been suffering from the "circular rings of death". Never explored >the idea further. Hi If you spin it fast enough, you could us a hard disk head. You might need a way to keep it flat such as a porous surface with a vacuum. Or maybe float it like the bernulli ( sp? ) drives did. You couldn't run it that fast in the envelope. Dwight > >Regarding Als idea of reading the disk backward - It would be a fairly >simply matter to make up a version of ImageDisk which reads from the >inside out. > >Dave > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 20:46:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Apr 12, 7 01:36:36 pm" Message-ID: <200704130146.l3D1koTj013362@floodgap.com> > > > Home computer: A system large enough to live inside, providing > > > shelter, heating, and ventilation for the occupants. > > The computers here provide *ample* heating. > But do you fit inside of them? Yes, but I need to use a blender first. -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Microsoft Windows is the IBM 3270 of the 21st century. --------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 20:50:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:50:00 -0700 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: <20070410173441.Q13971@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin >> >On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Christian Corti wrote: > > Ok, I was referring to the IBM 5114 maintenance manual which describes >FM > > and MFM encoding that IBM used for their drives/controllers. But you are > > right, e.g. the "Floppy Disk Data Separator Design Guide for the DP8463" >says > > that the address mark $A1 has a clock pattern of $0A. I don't really >know > > what IBM meant with "missing clock bits 2, 3 and 4"... I think it >applies > > to the $FE or $F8 address mark in FM. Hi In FM there is always a clock bit and a location for the data bit. Missing clock is just that, missing clock! No change to the data bits. MFM may or may not have a clock, depending on the data 1 bit density. If missing a clock, it means where a clock bit should be related to data. Dwight > >While you are at it, notice that the 1771 can create some FM data address >marks that the 179x can not. Worse yet, they are used in TRS80 (model 1) >disk formats. > > > _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 20:50:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:50:46 -0700 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461EB3A4.2020101@pacbell.net> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>, , <461EB3A4.2020101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 17:33, Jim Battle wrote: > This is pretty silly. There is a lot to criticize microsoft for, but I > don't think this is one of those things. It is just normal market > forces. If MS could get as many $$ per copy selling wordstar, they'd do > that since it would take a lot less money to develop and support. > People like the promise of new doo-dads, even if they end up not using > them. Is that something MS should take the blame for, or the customers > who buy it? Drifting a bit off-topic, but you'll see a change in thinking in the newest version of Word. The problem can be that there is just *too much* stuff for most humans to deal with. I still get a fair amount of work from publishers whose authors still perfer to write their stuff on an old word processor or electronic typewriter--no bells or whistles, just pages and pages of double- spaced manuscript. While I used an add-on package to prop space using WS 3.3 under CP/M, it wasn't pretty. Neither, for that matter, was WS 2000 under x86 DOS. The basic problem was that when you wanted PS, the "WYSIWYG" idea went out the Window (sorry!). Was there ever manufactured a non-graphics display terminal that could display proportional spacing text? Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 12 21:05:16 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:05:16 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461EE55C.2070401@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Oh, ye of little faith. The guy from the future who was looking for the >> 5100 took one of those back in time to around 1066. > > Why do people always forget the HP9830? It was 2 years before the > IBM5100, and while HP called it a calculator, it was a full-blown desktop > computer with up to 16K bytes of RAM running BASIC from ROM. > > OK, it had a 1-line alphanumeric LED display, not the CRT that the > IBM5100 used, but I don't think that's enough reason to forget it :-) > > (SOrry, I'm biased. I love the HP 98x0 machines...) > > -tony It was a geek cultural reference. Look up "john titor" via google. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Apr 12 21:26:30 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:26:30 -0400 Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive Message-ID: Does anyone remember how to unlock a Macintosh OS 8 Harddrive? I've got a Quadra 800 I'm working on but the harddrive is locked and doesn't allow for read or writes. (Aside from formatting) Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 12 21:33:58 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:33:58 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <20070412133507.A23237@shell.lmi.net> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <20070412133507.A23237@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <461EEC16.4080807@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > (WORDSTAR on 1/8 of an 8MHz AT == WORD on 500MHz Pentium) Now now, be fair; Word functions just fine once it's all loaded into memory. Yes, as you type, more things are swapped out/in (which is annoying) but after about 30 seconds it's quite snappy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 12 21:50:52 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>, , <461EB3A4.2020101@pacbell.net> <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ___________________________________________________________ > Was there ever manufactured a non-graphics display terminal that > could display proportional spacing text? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Varitype? :-) Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 22:04:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:04:14 -0700 Subject: which Olivetti computer had 8" drives? In-Reply-To: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <461E90BE.348.286530C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 16:31, Chris M wrote: > I'm told my mystery box was made by Olivetti. Remember > the unknown box with the "10 inch" drives. No, I don't remember the unknown box. There was the P6060, but that looked a lot like a word processor, so you probably wouldn't be asking about that. There were also various bits of Olivetti word processing, posting machines and whatnot, so it's hard to say exactly what you do have without more information. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 22:07:33 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive In-Reply-To: from Robert Borsuk at "Apr 12, 7 10:26:30 pm" Message-ID: <200704130307.l3D37XW9008914@floodgap.com> > Does anyone remember how to unlock a Macintosh OS 8 Harddrive? > I've got a Quadra 800 I'm working on but the harddrive is locked and > doesn't allow for read or writes. Locked from the OS? -- ----------------------------------- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" whilst finding a rock.-Tallyrand From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Apr 12 22:11:11 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:11:11 -0400 Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <369399A5-7420-4504-A3EE-98D9A750BC51@colourfull.com> On Apr 12, 2007, at 10:26 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Does anyone remember how to unlock a Macintosh OS 8 Harddrive? > I've got a Quadra 800 I'm working on but the harddrive is locked > and doesn't allow for read or writes. > > (Aside from formatting) > > Thanks > Rob > > > > Robert Borsuk > irisworld at mac.com > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > Sorry, I meant to say writes or modifies. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Apr 12 22:13:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:13:39 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com><461DF307.10569.1E41E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008c01c77d79$bd36aba0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >...."WIMP" for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pulldowns (or was it >"Pop-ups" or "Pointers"?).... "W"indows, "I"cons, "M"ouse, "P"ointer TTFN - Pete. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 22:36:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <20070412171359.N23237@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <594027.75930.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > ...which > is often mistakenly > thrown into piles of MDA or CGA cards... therefore based on the 6845? ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 12 22:40:28 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:40:28 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: <200704121454.l3CEsCBc015154@floodgap.com> <461E6E24.3020609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <461EFBAC.4060004@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/12/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > The computers here provide *ample* heating. >> >> But do you fit inside of them? > > > Do what the cat does and sleep on top. http://www.docsbox.net/Spazz_WAP.png Spazz now owns that hardware. It's her favorite spot. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 23:04:49 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070412205538.N23237@shell.lmi.net> > > Oh, ye of little faith. The guy from the future who was looking for the > > 5100 took one of those back in time to around 1066. On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Why do people always forget the HP9830? It was 2 years before the > IBM5100, and while HP called it a calculator, it was a full-blown desktop > computer with up to 16K bytes of RAM running BASIC from ROM. John Titor and the rest of his timeline apparently won't be aware of its existence. Besides, for reasons not specified, he had will need the APL and 360 emulation to be able to deal with the Unix "end of time" in 2038. Why? Is there even a Linux port to the 5100? > OK, it had a 1-line alphanumeric LED display, not the CRT that the > IBM5100 used, but I don't think that's enough reason to forget it :-) Well, maybe he will have maybe thought that he needs windows to do the graphics. I'm afraid that I'm not very good at conjugating verbs for things that had happened in the future, and will happen in the past. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 12 23:08:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wyse 700/Amdek 1280 (was: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <594027.75930.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <594027.75930.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070412210547.R23237@shell.lmi.net> > > ...which > > is often mistakenly > > thrown into piles of MDA or CGA cards... On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Chris M wrote: > therefore based on the 6845? I don't remember, but the use of a DE9 resulted in it being plugged into CGA and MDA cards, and CGA/MDA monitors being plugged into its card. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Apr 12 23:13:21 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:13:21 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: <5ed4a1a911e1c1ba4f054e7bfc0a74e4@valleyimplants.com> Jules typed > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I question Tog's "$50 million dollar study" just as much. >>> That's a lot of lettuce. >> >> On the other hand, Apple doesn't exactly do cost-economical anything. > > Except mouse buttons :) Apple's plenty happy to save money, it just never trickles down to the end purchaser. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 23:16:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:16:04 -0700 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>, <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <461EA194.2151.2C814BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2007 at 19:50, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Varitype? :-) Are you sure the Varityper didn't use graphics of some kind? I've seen one that does Hebrew. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 13 01:13:29 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:13:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: *nix on Message-ID: <960417.86990.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Actually you were right the first time - Windows, Icons, Mouse and Pull-down menu - or atleast according to the guy demonstrating the Amiga (1000?) on BBC Micro Live (from 1984/5). Find the video for it on YouTube, or i will post the link to it tonight when im on my laptop. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > >...."WIMP" for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pulldowns (or was it > >"Pop-ups" or "Pointers"?).... > > "W"indows, "I"cons, "M"ouse, "P"ointer > > > TTFN - Pete. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 12 18:13:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:13:41 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on"classic"systems] Message-ID: <0JGE00I1XR33KTM4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on"classic"systems] > From: Sean Conner > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:26:58 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >It was thus said that the Great Angel Martin Alganza once stated: >> >> Here it's when it (finally) comes my idea... I've been trying to get >> some modern Unix variant on my 486 notebook (no CD, PCMCIA NIC) for >> quite some time now hithout enough (to my likings) success. It's got >> 16MB RAM, but, for some reason, it recognises only 12. And, of course, >> 12MB is not enough to run any modern installer. I've ended up running a >> Linux distribution called Small Linux on it, but again, it's an old, >> poorly maintained distribution running an old Linux kernel. My first stab at a server was using a 486DX/66 with 16mb though it did have a NIC. the distro I used was slackware V2 something. It fit in 120mb with space to spare and ran decently. I also had it on a 486slc/25 with 8mb but a 360mb disk with only the usual difficulties (less than steller installers back then). What made the task resonable for both was CDrom drive. I did it once with floppies (75 of them!!!) and that was painful. Since I stopped messing with linux at caldara OpenlinuxV2.3 version level I can't say what the latest distros are like but those older ones fit an amazingly small machines if you took the custom path and didn't install more than the needed packages. I got tired of all the versions and the ever expanding size of the system required to just (barely) run it. Allison > > You could do what I did to install Linux on a 4MB RAM 120M harddrive >laptop computer---find a Linux distro that will boot (I used Tom's Root Boot >disk and even then it barely ran). The steps I ran through went something >like this: > > On the target computer, I could run a shell, fdisk, mkfs and dd. > That was enough to get started. > > Run fdisk. On the machine I was working on, two partitions: 112M > and 8M. Format the 8M as a filesystem and mount it. > > On a full Linux system, get some needed tools like tar, dd to a > floppy. Move to target system, and dd tar off to 8M partition. So > likewise with some other tools. > > On full system, I created a 112M file, and mounted it. Formatted > it, and put kernel, init, and a small /bin. unmount it. tar > the file and dd to floppy. > > On target tar xzcf /dev/fd0 | dd of=/dev/hda1 > > reboot target. Once rebooted, reformat 8M for swap and enable it. > > Keep using the floppy to get stuff over. > > Took a few hours, but I got it done. > > -spc (Wasn't the hardest install I did though ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 12 18:24:47 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:24:47 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) Message-ID: <0JGE00735RLLZN42@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:35:21 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >>So happens one of my "small" pdp-11s uses a Tu58. the system is a BA-11V >>with an 11/23 256k of ram, DLV11J and MRV11 rom(boot). Takes 10 minutes >>to boot, setup VM: then copy key files to and reboot. After that it's >>pretty decent even if I have to access a file on tape. >> >>Everytime I runs it with a bunch of kids of the current PC generations >>they go gaga and comment on how slow then I explain the amount of ram and >>storage then they are amazed it can be a functional machine with so little. >>They can't imagine a useful machine with 32kW of ram and 256kb of storage. >> >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >At some time or other, I saw a VT103 with dual TU-58 >drives in the bottom. As noted, it took about the >lunch break to boot. Files in wrong order. I learned how to make a pdt11/130 boot faster and thats a LSI-11 no extra ram. One trick was to put bad blocks at the end of each track to fource files to be sequential without wraping around to the beginning. Saved a lot of long rewind/seek operations. >However, a VT103 can actually support a PDP-11/73 >with all 4 MBytes of memory if the backplane is >upgraded to 22 bits. The other 2 quad slots can >have items like a TQK70, a DHQ11 and an RQD11-EC >which allows up to 4 * EDSI hard drives. In the >case of ESDI hard drives, I STRONGLY suggest >used a separate power supply. Otherwise, an >RQDX3 with an RD51 can also be used and it is >then possible to place the RD51 under the tube. A RX180 (VT180) disk box with a floppy and a st225 and a VT103, a sweet system with a 11/23 or faster CPU and 4mb ram (run VM:!) >At that point, you can play games with those PC >generation of kids and tell that that you don't >even need a computer, just a monitor and keyboard! > >If you use a dual PDP-11/73 or PDP-11/23 with a >DLV11-J (and no boot ROMs on the CPU), then >the SIGMA controllers are very handy, either >a dual MFM (or ESDI) version or the quad ESDI >version. Again, with the dual MFM version, >an RD51 (ST412) can be placed under the tube >and use the internal power supply of the VT103. > >It must be about 20 years ago that I did this >conversion of the RD51 hard drive under the >tube. I think I still have the backup VT103, >but without any boards or a suitable controller. > >With any ESDI drives, limit the use of the internal >power supply of the VT103 to a single drive for less >than 10 seconds which would probably be enough to >boot and copy any needed files to the VM: device. Sounds nice. I have a few BA-11VA (four dual width slots) and it's a challange to put enough boards to make a bootable viable sytem in that. An 11/23, 256k ram, DLV11J and a Rom card was full house and for storage the only choice was TU58 or Tu58 emulation (requires bukly balky PC). Though at one time Sparetime Gizmos offered a TU58 emulator in hardware using ram with battery backup (total of 512k or DD0/DD1). I have one of them and that is remarkably fast as there are no seek dealys and at 31k baud you can move enough to appear decently fast. There was also a third party TU58 like system that also used serial and instead of a tape it was rx50 compatable floppy. I'd love to find one or at least drawings and rom code. Allison >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail >address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk >e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be >obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the >'at' with the four digits of the current year. From adamg at pobox.com Thu Apr 12 18:46:42 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:46:42 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on Message-ID: <20070412234642.GA6471@silme.pair.com> >> This is an easy problem to solve. Resist the temptation to bundle >> non-OS software with the OS. > >That doesn't really solve anything; all it does is shift the debates to >the question of what counts as part of the OS. > >For exmaple, I consider a C compiler part of the OS. Others will >doubtless disagree. Some would consider perl part of the OS; I don't. For something like a C compiler, or, say, a web browser or a mail reader, it's easy enough to leave that out and let the user install one if he wants it. But a developer can say, "if I put Perl in the base installation, then I can write some of the package management tools, etc, in Perl". The same argument also applies to regex libraries, etc, that the basic system software can end up depending on. I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with this thinking, it just happens to be a slippery slope that can eventually leave you needing 4 terabytes to get to a shell prompt. -- Adam From irisworld at mac.com Thu Apr 12 21:18:46 2007 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:18:46 -0400 Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive Message-ID: Does anyone remember how to unlock a Macintosh OS 8 Harddrive? I've got a Quadra 800 I'm working on but the harddrive is locked and doesn't allow for read or writes. (Aside from formatting) Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From jvdg at sparcpark.net Fri Apr 13 02:10:31 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:10:31 +0200 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: M H Stein wrote: > ------------------Original Message: >>So to be clear, I am agreeing with the position that one can have >>Windows outside of a GUI (and that one can have a GUI that lacks >>windows, such as a CAD program), but in the mind of the masses, GUIs >>== windows. > > ------------------------------ > > And of course the mouse is irrelevant to this tiresome argument as well, > since it was quite commonly used in plain old text-mode single-tasking > non-windowed DOS (which could of course also have windows, multi-task > and display graphics, so I guess DOS WAS a GUI after all...) > > Sheesh! > > The OP said all we need to know with "I was going by the *popular* definition > of GUI/Windowed environment, not the strict one." That was me that said that, but I'm not the OP. I was assuming that this was what the OP meant, though. And I have come to accept, as I'm sure most of us have, that the nature of this list's populace makes a higher-than-average level of nitpicking inevitable. Oh well. I wouldn't change it for the world. ,xtG tsooJ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 13 02:41:30 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704130820.EAA10732@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Why do people always forget the HP9830? It was 2 years before the > IBM5100, and while HP called it a calculator, it was a full-blown > desktop computer with up to 16K bytes of RAM running BASIC from ROM. > OK, it had a 1-line alphanumeric LED display, not the CRT that the > IBM5100 used, but I don't think that's enough reason to forget it :-) Actually, this reminds me of an HP machine I used back in about 1977 or so. Perhaps someone can identify it for me? I think it was badged as a calculator, but "computer" would be a more honest word. It had an embedded language which was a bit odd - nothing I've seen anywhere else. There were some small number of named variables - X, Y, Z, A, B, C, I think - plus one array, R(). The size of R() depended on how large your program was - R() and program code competed for space. It had a thermal printer that printed on paper rolls 2?" wide. There was also a printer that printed on similar thermal-paper rolls eight and five-eighths inches wide; I *think* it was an external peripheral, but could be wrong about that. The "big" printer used substitutes for some of the non-ASCII characters that were built in to the small printer - for example, the right-arrow used for assignment became " TO ", and the not-equal symbol became "#". The particular one I used had a plotter attached; that I'm quite sure was an external peripheral. I did a little digging and found some old printouts, which is why I can be so exact about the paper sizes. Here are some excerpts from one of the programs (using the wide-printer substitutions, since I can't use characters like the right-arrow or right-tack symbols in this email). It bears a recognizable resemblance to BASIC, but clearly has some important differences. 0: CFG 13; ENT "NO. OF EQUATIONS",A,"NO. OF UNKNOWNS", B;FXD 3;IF FLG 13;JMP 0 [ 1: PRT "AUGMENTED MATRIX",""," IS";SPC [ 2: 0 TO X [ 3: "1";0 TO C;SPC ;X+1 TO X [ 4: "2";C+1 TO C;ENT "A(I,J)?",R(AC+X);PRT ;IF B+1 # C;GTO "2" [ ... 15: "7";R(A(C+Z+R0)+X+Z) TO R(A(C+Z+R0)+Z+R1);IF C+Z+R0 # B+1;C+1 TO C;GTO "7" [ ... 37: "20";IF A # X;X+(1 TO C) TO X;GTO "19" [ /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From james at machineroom.info Fri Apr 13 02:34:59 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:34:59 +0100 Subject: which Olivetti computer had 8" drives? In-Reply-To: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <461F32A3.6070807@machineroom.info> Chris M wrote: > I'm told my mystery box was made by Olivetti. Remember > the unknown box with the "10 inch" drives. > > > Floppy or hard drives? You've triggered my memory now.... I vaguely recall (I was about 12 at the time I guess!!) my first "big iron" was a BCS2???. It had a CDC external drive with 1 fixed disk and 1 removable 10MB cartridge. Don't recall the size but I guess 14". No floppy, tape or other drives. The machine itself was approx 1m wide, 1m high and 0.5m deep and was based around a Z80 with an 8080 coprocessor. 192K total RAM IIRC - guess some sort of paging system was used. The terminal was olivetti too with a very nice blue phosphor screen. Ran something called BOSS "British Olivetti System Supervisor" and wasn't terribly interesting. Also had an RS232 connected dot matrix printer which outlived the system by several years. Anybody else know anything more about these systems? James From cc at corti-net.de Fri Apr 13 04:01:44 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:01:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > In FM there is always a clock bit and a location for the data bit. Missing > clock is just that, missing clock! No change to the data bits. > MFM may or may not have a clock, depending on the data 1 bit density. > If missing a clock, it means where a clock bit should be related to data. I know what clock bits are ;-) The question was, why three missing clock bits (the MFM address mark has only one missing bit at position 5). But I've found out that this applies to the FM address mark where the clock bits 2, 3 and 4 are missing. The IBM manual just wasn't precise enough on this point. Christian From alberto at a2sistemi.it Fri Apr 13 04:31:13 2007 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:31:13 +0200 Subject: which Olivetti computer had 8" drives? In-Reply-To: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008401c77dae$7b7b2d00$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> > I'm told my mystery box was made by Olivetti. Remember > the unknown box with the "10 inch" drives. Have you any photo of this unknown box ? I have a lot of Olivetti documentation. There are some machines with 8" drive : the old BCS series, the L1 series (M40, M44), an S6000 version and others I think the oldest is P6066 Alberto. ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 13 05:15:49 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:15:49 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <008c01c77d79$bd36aba0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com><461DF307.10569.1E41E7@cclist.sydex.com> <008c01c77d79$bd36aba0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461F5855.4030208@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/04/2007 04:13, Ensor wrote: > >...."WIMP" for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pulldowns (or was it > >"Pop-ups" or "Pointers"?).... > > "W"indows, "I"cons, "M"ouse, "P"ointer No. "W"indows, "I"cons, "M"enus, "P"ointer The mouse *is* the pointer (though it could be any other pointing device, of course). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 13 05:20:24 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:20:24 +0100 Subject: *nix on In-Reply-To: <960417.86990.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <960417.86990.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <461F5968.6090306@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/04/2007 07:13, Andrew Burton wrote: > Actually you were right the first time - Windows, > Icons, Mouse and Pull-down menu - or atleast according > to the guy demonstrating the Amiga (1000?) on BBC > Micro Live (from 1984/5). But you don't need a mouse, specifically; it could be any pointing device. And many systems use context-sensitive pop-up menus that are not pull-down. The original acronym was for Windows Icons Menus and Pointer. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 13 05:43:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:43:01 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>, , <461EB3A4.2020101@pacbell.net> <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <461F5EB5.2050900@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Was there ever manufactured a non-graphics display terminal that > could display proportional spacing text? Most of them can start doing interesting proportional-like things when the caps start failing, but I suspect that doesn't count :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 13 05:46:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:46:36 -0500 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: <200704130146.l3D1koTj013362@floodgap.com> References: <200704130146.l3D1koTj013362@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <461F5F8C.5070805@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Home computer: A system large enough to live inside, providing >>>> shelter, heating, and ventilation for the occupants. > >>> The computers here provide *ample* heating. > >> But do you fit inside of them? > > Yes, but I need to use a blender first. No need if you have a PDP... all you need to do is post yourself through the ventilation slots and the fans will do the job for you :-) From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 06:56:44 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video interference with HD activity Message-ID: <696144.79730.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have a nice Powerlite TurboSparc laptop, which in general works great. However - I've noticed that if I connect an external monitor, there is a noticable flicker in the display when there is HD activity. I've tried a few things: 1) First I removed the internal 2.5" SCSI disk and mounted it in an external Sun shoebox. This made no difference. 2) I tried an external 3.5" HD (with no internal drive) again no difference - so persumably the HD is OK. 3) I tried beefing up the original PSU (2.5Amp) to 5Amp. This actually reduced the flicker a little, but not much. Any other ideas? I'm wondering if there is some suppressor circuitry on here that is failing in some way? Other than that, the unit peforms great, and because of its compact size - its a nice unit for running older "vintage" software. The internal LCD panel works fine, no flicker is visible on that. Thanks in advance. Ian. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 13 07:34:51 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:34:51 -0500 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <461EB3A4.2020101@pacbell.net> <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070413072959.06ce41a8@mail> At 08:50 PM 4/12/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Drifting a bit off-topic, but you'll see a change in thinking in the >newest version of Word. The problem can be that there is just *too >much* stuff for most humans to deal with. And the new Word seems to be far more in the direction of hiding obscure function X hidden in several levels of tabbed menus. Two seconds to hunt, minimum. But the same could be said about old Word, except you're hunting menus and dialogs. >I still get a fair amount of work from publishers whose authors still >perfer to write their stuff on an old word processor or electronic >typewriter--no bells or whistles, just pages and pages of double- >spaced manuscript. Which platform, which program? >Was there ever manufactured a non-graphics display terminal that >could display proportional spacing text? Terak? By non-graphic, do you mean not windowed or not bitmapped? Terak was bitmapped, but it had loadable customizable fonts, so it handled Hebrew and Elvish. - John From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Apr 13 04:08:47 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:08:47 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704130138.l3D1c7Vr011836@floodgap.com> References: <200704130138.l3D1c7Vr011836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200704131008.47593.gordon@gjcp.net> On Friday 13 April 2007 02:38:07 Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > I question Tog's "$50 million dollar study" just as much. > > > > That's a lot of lettuce. > > > > > > On the other hand, Apple doesn't exactly do cost-economical anything. > > > > Except mouse buttons :) > > Nothing economical about that one either. The mouse costs twice as much and > until recently had half the buttons. The expensive bit is knowing which button to leave off... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Apr 13 04:30:01 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:30:01 +0100 Subject: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704131030.01328.gordon@gjcp.net> On Thursday 12 April 2007 20:00:08 Tony Duell wrote: > > I believe (though have not verified it myself since I utterly despise the > > machines) that Sinclair used this technique in the early Spectrums; they, > > apparently, simply disabled the faulty half of the DRAMs using jumpers on > > the board. > > I beleive (although, like you I've not checked because, also like you, I > have as little to do with Sinclair machines as possible) that early 48K > SPectrums had 8 16K chips and 8 32K chips. The latter were half-good 64K > chips, there was a link (or maybe a resistor) on the PCB to select which > half would be used. Needless to say all 8 chips had to ahve the same half > good. That's right, they did. I have the workshop manual somewhere that details the jumper settings for all the variants. IIRC surplus 4164s worked in any machine... Gordon From davis at saw.net Fri Apr 13 04:38:51 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:38:51 -0700 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated In-Reply-To: <461E95DE.2010204@bitsavers.org> References: <461E95DE.2010204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <461F4FAB.6060702@saw.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Does anyone on the list collect non-IBM S/360 or S/370 "clones"? > > there was a firm called Two-Pi that in the early 80's was successful > > enough to be purchased by Four Phase. > > CHM has an Amdahl 470 and a Siemens 4004 (RCA Spectra). > > There were lots of people who built byte-oriented machines with > instruction > sets similar to the 360 and I know there are people who have > Interdata, and > Univac 9x00 machines. Memorex built a 16 bit 360 like machine, and I > have some > docs and software for that. > > The artifacts of these sorts of machines haven't been preserved very > well. Same > for Burroughs, Univac and NCR (business as opposed to scientific > computers). > > > > The Interdata 7-8/16-32 machines did emulation in microcode of the 360 architecture. I got the chance to use one back in 1975. Hard to tell how slow it was, Since everything seemed fast in those days. Jim. From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Apr 13 08:07:55 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 06:07:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: World's first computer on ebay!) (not) Message-ID: <29143892.1176469675894.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I have a desktop Monroe 1655 "calculator" that would also qualify then. I used it in 1971 at high school. It was built by Monroe. http://www.dvq.com/ads/monroe_sa_6_70.jpg I picked one up on eBay a few years ago complete with a card reader, cards, spare bulbs, etc (not shown in the picture). The programming language had various conditional jumps, boolean functions, and would of course do all the math you wanted. The jumps probably let you "jump" to a specific program address. There wasn't much program space, but it was a great exposure for me back then. best regards, Steve Thatcher From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 13 08:12:01 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:12:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: *nix on Message-ID: <841648.44877.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Could you put a date on that (along with some proof)? - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 13/04/2007 07:13, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Actually you were right the first time - Windows, > > Icons, Mouse and Pull-down menu - or atleast according > > to the guy demonstrating the Amiga (1000?) on BBC > > Micro Live (from 1984/5). > > But you don't need a mouse, specifically; it could be any pointing > device. And many systems use context-sensitive pop-up menus that are > not pull-down. The original acronym was for Windows Icons Menus and > Pointer. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Apr 13 08:15:52 2007 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:15:52 -0400 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704130820.EAA10732@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200704130820.EAA10732@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070413131438.M86175@kw.igs.net> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:41:30 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse wrote > Actually, this reminds me of an HP machine I used back in about 1977 > or so. Perhaps someone can identify it for me? HP9825 http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp9825.htm -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From hachti at hachti.de Fri Apr 13 09:28:02 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:28:02 +0200 Subject: Looking for H316 CPU extender card (temporarily) Message-ID: <461F9372.3020607@hachti.de> Hi folks, does anyone have an extender card for the Honeywell H316 CPU boards? My new H316R had that broken chip in the ASR interface and I replaced it. But nothing works... So I will have to track down what's wrong with it. I could use an extender card. That would help a lot. If anyone has more than one, I would be very happy to get it. And if someone has just one card, I would like to borrow it for some time. I would pay all shipping costs, of course! Thanks a lot, Philipp P.S.: What about the H316 posting above? I wrote some replies and a PM to Tony Wardle - but nothing happened :-( From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 13 09:41:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:41:00 -0700 Subject: Open-source floppy reader: the data separator/sync-er works! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Christian Corti >> >On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, dwight elvey wrote: >>In FM there is always a clock bit and a location for the data bit. Missing >>clock is just that, missing clock! No change to the data bits. >>MFM may or may not have a clock, depending on the data 1 bit density. >>If missing a clock, it means where a clock bit should be related to data. > >I know what clock bits are ;-) >The question was, why three missing clock bits (the MFM address mark has >only one missing bit at position 5). But I've found out that this applies >to the FM address mark where the clock bits 2, 3 and 4 are missing. The IBM >manual just wasn't precise enough on this point. > >Christian Hi I suspect that it was the difference in technology. When FM started, the clock/data separator was usually a couple of one-shots. This was probably more error prone at spotting missing clocks. When MFM came along, most were using PLL's. Since these actually tracked the data on the disk, they were more sensitive to catch things like a single missing clock. The other thing is that in MFM, the sequence is already missing a number of clocks because of the data sequence. Missing the last one makes it an illegal sequence. In FM, it may be the same thing. It isn't until the third clock is missing that it is truly an illegal sequence. You have to look at the data sequences to verify this. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 13 09:43:11 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:43:11 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <461F5855.4030208@dunnington.plus.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <008c01c77d79$bd36aba0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461F5855.4030208@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200704130743.12364.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 13 April 2007 03:15, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/04/2007 04:13, Ensor wrote: > > >...."WIMP" for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pulldowns (or was it > > >"Pop-ups" or "Pointers"?).... > > > > "W"indows, "I"cons, "M"ouse, "P"ointer > > No. "W"indows, "I"cons, "M"enus, "P"ointer > > The mouse *is* the pointer (though it could be any other pointing > device, of course). I'm reading "A History of Modern Computing", 2nd Edition, Paul Ceruzzi, Curator of Aerospace Electronics and Computing at the National Air and Space Museum. Page 261 - "Apple, not Xerox, brought the concept of windows, icons, a mouse, and pull-down menus (the WIMP interface) to a mass market..." Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 13 09:59:59 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:59:59 +0100 Subject: *nix on In-Reply-To: <841648.44877.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <841648.44877.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <461F9AEF.1080108@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/04/2007 14:12, Andrew Burton wrote: > Could you put a date on that (along with some proof)? > - Andrew B (via mobile phone) Go and look in old Siggraph papers from around that time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 13 11:16:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:16:46 -0700 Subject: PC-MOS? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070413072959.06ce41a8@mail> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>, <461E7F86.7525.24310F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070413072959.06ce41a8@mail> Message-ID: <461F4A7E.9748.55BE489@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2007 at 7:34, John Foust wrote: > Which platform, which program? Platform? Program? It's whatever the box does when you turn it on. In the past week, I've done a set from a Smith Corona typewriter and another from a Brother word processor. Olivetti and Brother seem to be the common "platforms"--and the Brother 240/120K GCR diskettes seem to be very common. I suspect that a fair number of people just don't want to fool with a conventional general-purpose PC and cherish their old WP equipment. One customer was lamenting that her old IBM Displaywriter (or rather its printer) finally gave up the ghost. She was using it well into 1999. Contrast the simplicity of a box that's ready when you power it on and requires no external software to load and which writes all the work on diskettes to a modern PC. I can appreciate the attitude. I can open a can with a Swiss Army knife (heck, I probably could *make* a can with one), but a contentional can opener is simpler and cheaper and does the job better. Professional writers are more concerned with getting their thoughts down and less concerned about "pretty". I think there are some simple ideas that are not amenable to "improvment" by addition of extra functionality. I've still not figured out all of the weird settings on my FM receiver, even though it affords no more additional functionality than the receiver I purchased in 1968. And, although it has a volume control knob, it lacks a tuning knob, a shortcoming in my book. > Terak? By non-graphic, do you mean not windowed or not bitmapped? > Terak was bitmapped, but it had loadable customizable fonts, so it > handled Hebrew and Elvish. I was thinking along the lines of "downloadable proportional fonts with hardware kerning". Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 13 11:51:58 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: video interference with HD activity In-Reply-To: <696144.79730.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <696144.79730.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704131655.MAA12973@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a nice Powerlite TurboSparc laptop, which in general works > great. However - I've noticed that if I connect an external monitor, > there is a noticable flicker in the display when there is HD > activity. Have you tried another monitor? My work machine is a SPARCstation LX. When it was connected to a CRT, all was well. Now it's on a flatscreen, and there are flickering horizontal streaks when there is host activity. (I'm not sure whether it's disk activity, CPU, Ethernet, or what.) I haven't cared enough to track down exactly what is provoking it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Apr 13 11:44:55 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:44:55 -0300 Subject: PC-MOS? Message-ID: <01C77DD2.10C1F7E0@mse-d03> --------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:16:46 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: PC-MOS? I think there are some simple ideas that are not amenable to "improvment" by addition of extra functionality. I've still not figured out all of the weird settings on my FM receiver, even though it affords no more additional functionality than the receiver I purchased in 1968. And, although it has a volume control knob, it lacks a tuning knob, a shortcoming in my book. ------------Reply: Amen to that! I think replacing tuning etc. knobs with up and down buttons is one of the worst examples of time-wasting "progress"; I love my ancient Pioneer receiver with a normal slide-rule dial _and_ a digital frequency display. If you add it all up, including the time we spend fiddling with computers, VCRs, microwaves, etc. we may be living longer but are probably actually living less, and with more stress caused by the frustration. BTW, back to the original subject: I've got a few multi-port RS232 cards if anyone wants one (no drivers though). m From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 12:50:29 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video interference with HD activity Message-ID: <658892.76663.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > > there is a noticable flicker in the display when there is > HD activity. > > Have you tried another monitor? I havent tried another monitor - but its a good idea - thanks. Ian. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Apr 13 12:52:29 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:52:29 +0100 Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive In-Reply-To: <200704131058.l3DAvbuI079705@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704131058.l3DAvbuI079705@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6F5C43D3-2C61-43EB-9DF8-4DF9070B785E@microspot.co.uk> On 13 Apr, 2007, at 11:58, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 24 > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:18:46 -0400 > From: Robert Borsuk > Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Does anyone remember how to unlock a Macintosh OS 8 Harddrive? > I've got a Quadra 800 I'm working on but the harddrive is locked and > doesn't allow for read or writes. > > (Aside from formatting) > > Thanks > Rob Could it be as simple as selecting the hard drive's icon, doing Get Info and unchecking the locked flag? Or maybe it has been locked at a lower level than that. Roger Holmes From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 13 13:11:15 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:11:15 -0400 Subject: Unlock Macintosh Harddrive In-Reply-To: <6F5C43D3-2C61-43EB-9DF8-4DF9070B785E@microspot.co.uk> References: <200704131058.l3DAvbuI079705@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6F5C43D3-2C61-43EB-9DF8-4DF9070B785E@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2007, at 1:52 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > On 13 Apr, 2007, at 11:58, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >> Does anyone remember how to unlock a Macintosh OS 8 Harddrive? >> I've got a Quadra 800 I'm working on but the harddrive is locked and >> doesn't allow for read or writes. >> >> (Aside from formatting) >> >> Thanks >> Rob > > > Could it be as simple as selecting the hard drive's icon, doing Get > Info and unchecking the locked flag? > > > Or maybe it has been locked at a lower level than that. > > > Roger Holmes > For some reason, I couldn't do a Get Info on the harddrive. Files yes, Harddrive no. I tried starting without extensions but that didn't help. I opened the drive with FWB (it's installed on the harddrive) and seen two partitions: The normal one and a small partition thats encrypted. I've never seen anything like that before. I believe that the harddrive was used on system in a school system. I pulled the harddrive from a Quadra 840av. Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 14:34:15 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:34:15 -0500 Subject: An odd terminal In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704111101i82b19e3kb0b78cb1063fd7a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730704111022u1e58979i5313947882d9867c@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704111101i82b19e3kb0b78cb1063fd7a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704131234j3bd05972j9900409f5e9732a9@mail.gmail.com> I wrote to Xitron's current tech support email, and got this in reply (posted as a comment on my Flickr page:) -- This is a "Xitron Portable Terminal" and dates from the late 70's or VERY early 80's, as evidenced by the acoustic coupler (hand set cups) for the modem. Believe it or not, this was the "laptop" computer of the day. It had a very specific purpose, to allow text entry of news(?) stories and then transmitted them to a central office via the modem. When I joined Xitron in 1985, they were still servicing these units, many of them in Central and South America, but production had long since ceased. Xitron had a long history in the newspaper market but has transitioned to Electronic Prepress (Graphic Arts). They are still in business today. I am REALLY surprised that this unit is still functional (to some extent). It is the ONLY example of hardware employing magnetic bubble memory I have ever seen. The fact that the bubble cartridge still has it's contents is even more astonishing. I do not know if the bubble memory cartridge was built by Xitron or was simply integrated as an off-the-shelf storage solution. I believe (could be wrong) that Steve Philips was the engineer behind this device. The fact that it is still working only stands as evidence that he is the single most talented electrical engineer I have ever met in my 24+ years in the high technology sector. Bravo! -- -j > On 4/11/07, Richard wrote: > > > Do you have an idea of the manufacturing date for this guy? I'm > > guessing mid to late 70s or early 80s. This terminal doesn't have an > > LCD screen (like the Random Colleague), which indicates it might be a From ccmpcpg at yahoo.de Fri Apr 13 14:35:55 2007 From: ccmpcpg at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Gr=F6ssler?=) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:35:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: which Olivetti computer had 8" drives? In-Reply-To: <894279.95944.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <994523.24289.qm@web23310.mail.ird.yahoo.com> The M40 has 8" floppy drives. I have 2 of them. I'm looking for documentation. Does anyone have something? regards, chris __________________________________ Yahoo! Clever: Sie haben Fragen? Yahoo! Nutzer antworten Ihnen. www.yahoo.de/clever From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 13 14:35:45 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <20070413131438.M86175@kw.igs.net> References: <200704130820.EAA10732@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070413131438.M86175@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <200704131937.PAA14340@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Actually, this reminds me of an HP machine I used back in about 1977 >> or so. Perhaps someone can identify it for me? > HP9825 > http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp9825.htm Thank you! Actually, on looking at the pictures and descriptions there, I believe it was a 9820 (9820A?), not a 9825. Ooo, nostalgia.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 15:12:36 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:12:36 +0100 Subject: *nix on References: <960417.86990.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c77e08$143982e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Actually you were right the first time - Windows, >Icons, Mouse and Pull-down menu - or atleast according >to the guy demonstrating the Amiga (1000?) on BBC >Micro Live (from 1984/5).... Interesting, all of the magazine articles I remember reading in the mid-80's (and indeed our lecturer on "Human-Computer Interfaces" at Polytechnic) used the definition of "WIMP" I gave above. This was in the days of GEM, MAC "Finder", Amiga "Workbench" etc. Just had a quick look on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_%28computing%29, and it seems that both definitions are equally valid. Learn something new every day. :-) TTFN - Pete. From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 13 10:55:53 2007 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:55:53 +0100 Subject: World's first computer on ebay! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ce01c77de4$3a83f350$3201a8c0@hal> > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EINSTEIN-THE-WORDS-FIRST-EVER-HOME-COMPUTER_W0QQ > > itemZ330 107739273QQcategoryZ96888QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Dear $gods, I fear for the future of humanity. Unless of > course he's taking the piss, but I doubt it given his other feedback. > > It's almost like he's taken steps from my ebay page: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/museum-wow.php > > :) > If you have a look at the feedback he has received as a buyer... Note the "pills" in the list. Perhaps he needs the cash for a splash of plastic surgery? To be a bit more on-topic - I need to extend my.... SCSI disc size... Does anyone know how to add, partition and format a SCSI drive on an Acorn Archimedes A540 with SCSIFS (Risc OS 3.31) I have got a bunch of SCSI discs, varying in size from 540MB to 4GB knocking around in a box and I'd like to replace the 120MB Conner and external 116MB 5.25" Miniscribe with, say, a single 540MB internal. Can anyone on this list help please. Cheers Dave ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 13 17:29:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:29:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704130820.EAA10732@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Apr 13, 7 03:41:30 am Message-ID: > > > Why do people always forget the HP9830? It was 2 years before the > > IBM5100, and while HP called it a calculator, it was a full-blown > > desktop computer with up to 16K bytes of RAM running BASIC from ROM. > > > OK, it had a 1-line alphanumeric LED display, not the CRT that the > > IBM5100 used, but I don't think that's enough reason to forget it :-) > > Actually, this reminds me of an HP machine I used back in about 1977 or > so. Perhaps someone can identify it for me? > > I think it was badged as a calculator, but "computer" would be a more > honest word. It had an embedded language which was a bit odd - nothing > I've seen anywhere else. There were some small number of named > variables - X, Y, Z, A, B, C, I think - plus one array, R(). The size > of R() depended on how large your program was - R() and program code > competed for space. It had a thermal printer that printed on paper > rolls 2=BC" wide. There was also a printer that printed on similar > thermal-paper rolls eight and five-eighths inches wide; I *think* it > was an external peripheral, but could be wrong about that. The "big" > printer used substitutes for some of the non-ASCII characters that were > built in to the small printer - for example, the right-arrow used for > assignment became " TO ", and the not-equal symbol became "#". > > The particular one I used had a plotter attached; that I'm quite sure > was an external peripheral. I can't identify it exactly, but I am pretty sure it's one of 2 machines, one rarer than the other. The more common one is the HP9820. The rarer one is the HP9821. They're much the same to program, the difference is that the 9820 has a magnetic card reader at the rear right of the kayboard, the 9821 has a digital cassette drive (takes tapes that look like audio compact cassettes) there. They're members of the same family as the 9830 that I mentioned as a contender for the title of 'first personal computer'. There's one other model in the family, the HP9810, which is a 3-level stack RPN calculator, similar to the HP9100 to use (although totally different internally). They're all really computers in that they have a central processor linked to RAM and ROM, with the keyboard, display, printer,etc as peripherals. The processor is 16 bit, bit-serial, with 2 accummulators (A and B), program counter (P), 'Wualifer' (instruction register) Q, Memory address register (M), Memory data register (T), Extension register (E, only 4 bits wide) and an I/O register. The processor is built on 4 PCBs (these boards are common to all 4 machines in the family), containing about 80 TTL ICs. It's microcoded (there are 7 ROMs on on of the PCBs containing 256 28-bit words). The ALU, strangely, is a pair of ROMs on another of the boards contianing look-up tables for the functions. The M and T registers are not on the processor boards, they're on memory interface boards which are different in the various machines. The 9820 has 1 or 2 1K-word RAM boards (using Intel 1103 DRAMs) and 2 ROM boards each contianing 2K words of code. 3 optional ROM modules (1K words each) can be plugged into sockets just behind the display. The dispaly is 16 characters, dot matrix, and is driven by the firmware. The keyboard, on the other hand, is encoded in hardware. It's an odd design of keyboard, in that there are balanced teansformers formed by spiral PCB tracks under each key. Pressing a key brigns a piece of metal over one of the 'windings', unbalancing the system and providint an output pulse that's detected by the encoder electronics. It's reliable, but I guess rather expensive. Coincidentally, I've got a 9820 in bits on my bench at the moment. I bought it on E-bay, described as a 'non-working HP9820', and that's what it was. I'll emphasisse here that I have no complaints against the seller, he sold me just what I expected. Anyway, I've cured the electronic fault (a defective shift register chip in the M register circuit). There are 3 other faults. One is that an edge connector has been removed from the I/O backplane (and removed very well, I might add, there is no damage at all to the PCB tracks). I can get one from Digikey or somewhere. More worrying, but not suprising, is that the card reader roller and printer platten have turned to goo. And the card reader spindle buckled and shattered when I tried to get the roller off with a puller. My poor little cat, who often watches me repair classic computers, was rather scared by this :-( (What is it about cats and classic computer enthusiasts???). Anyway, I've got to make a new spindle, and then work out a way to repair the platten. Still, it should be possible... Getting back to der Mouse's memories, the strip printer was built into the machine, but was technically an option (I've yet to se a 9820, or a 9810, which took the same optional printer, without it). The larger external printer may well have been an HP9866 (the 9866A is upper case only, the 9866B is mixed case). The plotter was probably an HP9862. There were several standard interfaces available, including 8 bit parallel 'GPIO' (used for, amongst other things, paper tape punches and readers0, a BCD interface (to read in readings from digital measuring instruments), an RS232 interface, etc. There was also an HPIB interface (I think this was the first ever family of mahcines to have HPIB). For the 9830 (the top model in the range, running BASIC), there was a complex and powerful asynchronous _and_ synchronous serial interface. You can get some manuals, including prgoramming info and boardswapper guides from http://www.hpmuseum,net/ > > I did a little digging and found some old printouts, which is why I can > be so exact about the paper sizes. Here are some excerpts from one of > the programs (using the wide-printer substitutions, since I can't use > characters like the right-arrow or right-tack symbols in this email). > It bears a recognizable resemblance to BASIC, but clearly has some > important differences. The language developed into HPL (offiically 'High Performance Language', but it's obvious what it really stood for) which was used on the 9825 (manuals on the same site). On the 9820 it was a key-per-function language with a key for 'PRT', etc. The R() array, of course, stood for 'registers' The main differece to BASIC is hos you write an asignment. Rather than C=A+B, you write A+B->C (wehre -> is a right-arrow, called 'Gozinta' in some technical docs I've seen) You may have gatehrered I rather like this family of machines..... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 13 17:00:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:00:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11V In-Reply-To: <0JGE00735RLLZN42@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 12, 7 07:24:47 pm Message-ID: > > Sounds nice. I have a few BA-11VA (four dual width slots) > and it's a challange to put enough boards to make a bootable > viable sytem in that. An 11/23, 256k ram, DLV11J and a Rom As an aside, there was a thing in the UK called a 'York box' (I believe it was developed at the University of York) to link machines to the X25-based Janet (Joint Academic NETwork). It consisted of a BA11V box containing an SBC21 (Falcon) CPU, a 32KW RAM card, a RRV11 (parallel port) and a DPV11 (sync serial port). The DPV11 talked to the X25 network, the host system was connected either using the DRV11 (16 bit parallel interface) or using one of the asynchrononous serial interfaces on the SBC21. I belive it was used with VAX and certainly PERQ hosts (I think I have the EPRQ software for it somewhere, I do have a York box in the pile...) -tony From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 18:19:52 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:19:52 +1000 Subject: (no subject) References: Message-ID: <0c7e01c77e22$3ee94010$0100a8c0@pentium> Guys, Developing a bittorrent site devoted to distributing classic computer related material (mainly 8 & 16 bit machines only) - it's in test mode at the moment at http://landover.no-ip.com:6969 - test it out if you will (try uploading too). Any comments (good, bad or otherwise), there's a forum attached. cheers, Lance \\ http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 19:21:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:21:39 +0100 Subject: MCM66128L20 References: <30345241.1176303062574.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <004e01c77c96$bd11afa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461D2FC8.20583.4F932213@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001601c77e2a$e00e0590$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Here in Europe we had the "520" and the "1040" (and later Mega >>1 & Mega 2), did Atari market them under slightly different names >>in the US, IE "540ST"? > > Nope, just a picked of bits in the ol' noggin. 520 and 1040.... The reason I asked is that I dimly recall reading somewhere on the 'net that there was (or was to be) a 540ST (or was that a 260ST?). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 19:32:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:32:31 +0100 Subject: MCM66128L20 References: Message-ID: <002101c77e2c$63c600d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I beleive (although, like you I've not checked because, also like >you, I have as little to do with Sinclair machines as possible).... It's not that I don't appreciate the skilful design work which went into the ZX-80/81/Spectrum (much of which seems to be cribbed from "The Cheap Video Cookbook" BTW), it's just that the first machine I had at home was a ZX-80 and programming the thing was a nightmare. You were constantly having to program "around the system" because of the "tight" way the hardware and firmware were tied together. It really was a never ending, uphill battle, to get the thing to do anything useful which eventually just got plain annoying.... I've not actually touched a Sinclair machine since I got my first Atari in 1983; and I hope never to again.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 13 19:36:55 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <001601c77e2a$e00e0590$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from Ensor at "Apr 14, 7 01:21:39 am" Message-ID: <200704140036.l3E0atvL013406@floodgap.com> > The reason I asked is that I dimly recall reading somewhere on the 'net that > there was (or was to be) a 540ST (or was that a 260ST?). I know of a 260ST, not a 540. There was also talk of a 130ST. Incidentally, I managed to land a STacy recently. Any suggestions from other users for upgrades, etc.? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You are not ready! --------------------------------------------------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 19:37:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:37:39 +0100 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es><00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <9e2403920704112130i3974e470y6a8289925d778ebb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002c01c77e2d$1b0ec790$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > From a porting standpoint, I'd agree wholeheartedly. Looking from >the other direction, that of a machine whose purpose isn't to compile >anything, it might be better to keep the compilers in a development >add-on. Have base, dev, network, X, et al as separate pieces.... Personally, I still think a compiler is pretty essential, but you make a good point. As long as a compiler is available, that's all that really matters. BTW Just to be clear, I don't consider the compiler to be a part of the OS, rather a fairly essential part of the overall package. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 19:38:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:38:34 +0100 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es><00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20070411214506.M84925@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003101c77e2d$3c44d300$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >.. . . and how could you even call it an OS until it has a port of >ADVENTURE, PONG, FLIGHT SIMULATOR, LODE RUNNER, or SOLITAIRE? LMAO. Don't forget "Star Trek"!! TTFN - Pete. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 13 19:50:04 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:50:04 -0500 Subject: H960 filler panel trade? Message-ID: <000701c77e2e$db1b8e00$6700a8c0@BILLING> I'm buttoning up the 11/45 as the machine is complete & running. I spent the afternoon making my filler panels clean & a lighter shade (they were a bit yellow). All I have to do is clean up the cable management inside the rack and put the back doors on. However, I find myself one 10.5" DEC H960 filler panel short. Would anyone have a 10.5" filler panel available? In trade, I can offer a non-dec H960 filler panel (or two) that is meant to be attached with velcro. They are very white around the edges, black center. They look new. Yes, I could use one of these in place of the DEC snap-on kind but I'd rather not. Now I just have to figure out exactly how H960 back doors mount on, what hardware is required, find missing springs & such... :) Jay From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 19:54:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:54:43 +0100 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es><00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461DFF54.8050803@saw.net> Message-ID: <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I bought the MINIX version for the Atari ST and installed it, but >I used it as a toy, I don't remember recompiling the kernal. It had >full kernal source, and all the tools to rebuild.... It sure came with the sources, but I'm 99.999999999999% certain you could not rebuild the kernal because no compiler was included in the distribution. >....I think you're mistaken saying it was useless. It certainly fulfilled it's aim of being a platform to learn about modern OS design and implementation, but without applications or a way to develop them, it's usefulness is ultimately limited (by what is included in the distribution). Don't forget, very few people had 'net access back then, those of us who were on-line were mostly on FidoNet and there was nothing online for Minix that I could find (and I tried pretty hard). >....supplied device access and process management was a good base to >develop.... As long as you have a development tool.... :-) >....Anything with a prompt. LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the command line (though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing the source with "notepad" - who needs an IDE?). TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 13 20:08:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:08:56 -0700 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es>, <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <461FC738.7309.7431A21@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 1:54, Ensor wrote: > LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the command line > (though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing the source with > "notepad" - who needs an IDE?). I can honestly claim that the closest thing to an IDE that I've ever used for any language was the "Electric C" extension for emacs. And even then, I didn't use it for long. It just got in the way. Cheers, Chuck From ballsandy at msn.com Fri Apr 13 20:10:19 2007 From: ballsandy at msn.com (john ball) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:10:19 -0700 Subject: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller Message-ID: Right now I am attempting to configure my Everex EV-833 tape controller card with my old 386 system and I am stuck at setting the dip switches and the jumper blocks. I usually find configuration settings here... http://artofhacking.com/th99/index.htm ...but they don't have any info on this card. does anybody here know the configuration settings or does anyone know where I can find the configuration settings? Here's a photograph: http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/scsi/pwa-0081h.jpg _________________________________________________________________ Win a webcam! Nominate your friend?s Windows Live Space in the Windows Live Spaces Sweetest Space Contest and you both could win! http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/sweetestspace/default.aspx From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 13 20:32:58 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:32:58 +0100 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com><001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <006e01c77b85$04fb8dd0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <004f01c77e34$d63168f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > A P90 will do. I have Debian running on a 486sx25 with 32 MB of >RAM. It's quite luxurious for a low-end 486, but it's still pretty >slow. :) Yeah, when I last tinkered with Linux in 1996 I ran it on a 486DX-50. It ran well enough, but then I wasn't running X (I could never get it to drive the VGA card or monitor properly). > My firewall machine is a P133. As it turns out, the Vectra is actually a P-120. I have another old (home built) P-90, which I'm thinking about setting up as a firewall, maybe.... > You almost certainly won't want to run a GUI on such a machine.... Noooo...! A shell prompt will be more than sufficient for my purposes at the moment; though being able to log in remotely from my M$ box would be immensely useful. TTFN - Pete. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 13 20:38:44 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:38:44 -0500 Subject: H960 filler panel trade? In-Reply-To: <000701c77e2e$db1b8e00$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000701c77e2e$db1b8e00$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <462030A4.30607@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > I'm buttoning up the 11/45 as the machine is complete & running. I spent > the afternoon making my filler panels clean & a lighter shade (they were > a bit yellow). All I have to do is clean up the cable management inside > the rack and put the back doors on. > > However, I find myself one 10.5" DEC H960 filler panel short. Would > anyone have a 10.5" filler panel available? I might be able to do this. Anything I have will certainly be properly aged. :) > Now I just have to figure out exactly how H960 back doors mount on, what > hardware is required, find missing springs & such... :) Want me to take pics and make drawings? Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 13 20:59:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:59:13 -0400 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C29B101-7EF3-4873-AA14-30A3133639AE@neurotica.com> On Apr 13, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, I've cured the electronic fault (a defective shift register > chip > in the M register circuit). There are 3 other faults. One is that > an edge > connector has been removed from the I/O backplane (and removed very > well, > I might add, there is no damage at all to the PCB tracks). I can > get one > from Digikey or somewhere. How odd...Why would someone have removed that connector?? > More worrying, but not suprising, is that the > card reader roller and printer platten have turned to goo. And the > card > reader spindle buckled and shattered when I tried to get the roller > off > with a puller. My poor little cat, who often watches me repair classic > computers, was rather scared by this :-( (What is it about cats and > classic computer enthusiasts???). We have good taste. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 13 21:54:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:54:41 -0400 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <200704140036.l3E0atvL013406@floodgap.com> References: <200704140036.l3E0atvL013406@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46204271.90000@atarimuseum.com> I have the original 130ST shown at the 1985 CES. The 260ST was shipped to Europe in limited numbers. The 520ST was shipping to user groups and developers in June of 1985 and then general retail in September of 1985 - it shipped with its OS - "TOS" on Disks as the final prom's for the OS weren't ready at that time, but followed shortly there after. In 1986 Atari shipped the 1040ST which had a full 1MB of ram and built in floppy drive. STacy's are remarkable machines and when you take into account that they were smaller and lighter then the Mac portable and its honk'n lead acid battery - the STacy was a truly remarkable machine. The original codename for the Atari ST was "RBP" which stood for Rock Bottom Price. The STacy was codenamed "BlueJay" Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The reason I asked is that I dimly recall reading somewhere on the 'net that >> there was (or was to be) a 540ST (or was that a 260ST?). >> > > I know of a 260ST, not a 540. There was also talk of a 130ST. > > Incidentally, I managed to land a STacy recently. Any suggestions from > other users for upgrades, etc.? > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Apr 13 22:17:14 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:17:14 -0500 Subject: Early WLAN gear In-Reply-To: <460C1518.5040706@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070413220526.0b342350@localhost> I found the stuff I was looking for while shuffling boxes from (here) to (there) in the basement. Any interest in: Netwave Airsurfer Pro Wireless LAN PC card (for laptop). Has sticker on the box "IEEE 802.11 compliant" and yes, I have the box and manual. No software of any kind. Seems to be a direct sequence card. Model number is 1100-6001, software version 3.0 (but again, I have no software.) Per manual, it uses the IEEE 802.11 DSSS service, which is channels 1-11 in the US, 1-13 in Europe, etc. Looks like it supports infrastructure mode, and ad-hoc mode. Installation/setup instructions are for WinNT 4 workstation, and Win95. Looks like it uses Card and socket services. I also have an access point for it, with wall-wart. I think that's the right wall-wart. The AP has connections for 10BaseT and thinnet. Yes, really. No manual or box for the AP. -T At 02:35 PM 3/29/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Built a number of wireless data apps in the 80s and 90s. > >Interested in finding cards, code, APs and anything related from mfgs like >Moto, Windwave, WiLAN, NCR, Proxim, Telxon etc. > >Any responses appreciated. > >Thanks, >Steve ----- 656. Someone has figured out that we have about 35 million laws trying to enforce 10 Commandments! -- Author Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 13 22:27:31 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070414032731.DDB1257FB5@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Ensor > > > LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the command line > (though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing the source with > "notepad" - who needs an IDE?). > I use vedit as my editor for C in my day job.. When I do GUI work I use PhAB (while still using vedit for the C files). For debugging I use fprintf ()'s. Cheers, Bryan From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 14 00:22:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <46204271.90000@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Apr 13, 7 10:54:41 pm" Message-ID: <200704140522.l3E5MqnF013332@floodgap.com> > I have the original 130ST shown at the 1985 CES. There was only one? > STacy's are remarkable machines and when you take into account that they > were smaller and lighter then the Mac portable and its honk'n lead acid > battery - the STacy was a truly remarkable machine. Any recommendations for "must get" upgrades? Is it worth it putting more RAM in it? How difficult is it to shoehorn a hard disk inside (I don't have the unit yet, it's still in a Fedex truck somewhere). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Put your Nose to the Grindstone! -- Plastic Surgeons-Toolmakers Union Ltd. - From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 14 00:34:41 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:34:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704140541.BAA27569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The main differece [between 9820 language and] BASIC is hos you write > an asignment. Rather than C=A+B, you write A+B->C (wehre -> is a > right-arrow, called 'Gozinta' in some technical docs I've seen) Well, and, this is an expression rather than a statement; you could do things like R(X+(1->C))->A (somewhat akin to the way C lets you write a=r[x+(c=1)]) - did any BASICs do that? And the complete lack of anything like DATA (well, as far as I can recall). And the way conditionals behaved. (Were there any BASICs that let you stack statements on a line and for which conditionals always controlled the rest of the line?) And the lack of anything like a FOR loop. > You may have gatehrered I rather like this family of machines..... I think you said as much a post or two ago. :-) I'm tempted to try to find one purely for nostalgia reasons. (Tempted. I probably won't actually do it, unless one more or less falls into my lap cheap. For one thing, I've been too spoiled since then by using much more powerful and pleasant languages.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 01:37:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:37:56 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704140541.BAA27569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <200704140541.BAA27569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46201454.16986.8704BA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 1:34, der Mouse wrote: > Well, and, this is an expression rather than a statement; you could do > things like R(X+(1->C))->A (somewhat akin to the way C lets you write > a=r[x+(c=1)]) - did any BASICs do that? AFAIK, none of the usual suspects permit multiple assignments in a statement. The odd thing is that GWBASIC will pass a statement of the form X=Y=7, but Y will be 0 and X will be -1 at the conclusion of execution, regardless of the value of y or x at the beginning. OTOH, LET X=Y=3 will set both X and Y to 0. GWBASIC is full of stuff like this. > And the way conditionals behaved. (Were there any BASICs that let you > stack statements on a line and for which conditionals always controlled > the rest of the line?) As in IF Z<> 1 THEN X=3 : Y=5 executing X=3 and Y=5 if and only if Z isn't 1? Yes, many BASICs (including GWBASIC) do that. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 14 02:27:41 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:27:41 -0700 Subject: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4620826D.3040502@msm.umr.edu> john ball wrote: > Right now I am attempting to configure my Everex EV-833 tape > controller card with my old 386 system and I am stuck at setting the > dip switches and the jumper blocks. > I usually find configuration settings here... > > http://artofhacking.com/th99/index.htm I dont recall all the device settings, but you can sort of wing it. the card usually is addressed at 300, irq 5 to stay clear of other common ISA assets (usually a scsi controller) If you want to poke at it, you can boot dos, debug and use the port command to read 300, 310, ... and you will hopefully either find 0xFF as a result of a byte in command, or something which is 0bxxxxx101, that is low order bits = 0x5 after masking. If you find that, you have the main status input from the drive. one bit shows ready on the input port, one bit is the data transfer bits, and the other is the drive busy, as I recall. Most hardware derived from the Everex design, whether it is a controller and drive with a qic-24 -> qic 2 card, and a simple bus interface , or the integrated model like this that goes directly to the qic-24 drives of various densities. some vendors and everex strived to screw this up, but if you could find this port, usually the commands worked. I believe that the controller you have is probably set to 0x300, but I could be wrong. Once I got my bearings the dip switch had the most significant 6 bits of the 10 bit ISA I/O address, with the lower 4 not useful, since the controller was only addressable at 300, 310 ... I'll try to find some of my listings to get a list of possible device addresses, and that would allow you to decode the switches. I don't recall what the other configuration switches did on that controller or others like it, but I don't think they were usually changed. BTW, the DMA channel and DMA Acknowlege had only the requirement that they track each other, most drivers will dynamically figure out where the DMA is if they use it. Also a lot of software could be set not to use DMA and byte transfer for data, as on the old AT bus that was sometimes faster. Jim Jim From kevin.murrell at savience.com Sat Apr 14 02:35:56 2007 From: kevin.murrell at savience.com (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 08:35:56 +0100 Subject: CDC Lark drive and SMD Interface In-Reply-To: <000701c77e2e$db1b8e00$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000701c77e2e$db1b8e00$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4620845C.5060601@savience.com> Hi I have data I would like to restore from a CDC Lark pack. It's actually an OS disk from a British machine called the Molecular 18. I have a working Lark drive, happily several disk packs, but no original machine. I do have a PDP11/73 with a very flexible SMD controller - the Webster WQSMD. I know nothing about the actual disk structure on the packs, other than a vague recollection that the packs were hard sectored. The WQSMD is detecting whether the drive is idle or up to speed. Making random guesses to the disk structure isn't working - my hope was to guess and use the WQSMD option of reading raw disk blocks. I am taking to the WQSMD directly - using the 11/73 simply as the power supply! Any thoughts or suggestions as pursuing this path or finding another. Regards Kevin From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Apr 14 02:36:15 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:36:15 -0700 Subject: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller In-Reply-To: <4620826D.3040502@msm.umr.edu> References: <4620826D.3040502@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <044201c77e67$95932c10$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:28 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller the card usually is addressed at 300, irq 5 to stay clear of other common ISA assets (usually a scsi controller) ------ Just remember, if there is a soundblaster or soundblaster compatible card in the system, real SB's and SB-16 and newer default to the soundblaster sitting at IO-300H and IRQ 5. From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 14 02:38:52 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 04:38:52 -0300 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Message-ID: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> ------------Original Message: From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) On 14 Apr 2007 at 1:34, der Mouse wrote: > Well, and, this is an expression rather than a statement; you could do > things like R(X+(1->C))->A (somewhat akin to the way C lets you write > a=r[x+(c=1)]) - did any BASICs do that? AFAIK, none of the usual suspects permit multiple assignments in a statement. The odd thing is that GWBASIC will pass a statement of the form X=Y=7, but Y will be 0 and X will be -1 at the conclusion of execution, regardless of the value of y or x at the beginning. OTOH, LET X=Y=3 will set both X and Y to 0. GWBASIC is full of stuff like this. ------------Reply: Eh???? Did I miss something? Those are not multiple assignments but very useful logical tests. If a logical argument is true, it has the numeric value of -1, else 0, thus, if Y=7 then x= -1 else x= 0, whether you LET it or not, at least in the BASICs I work in (and even GWBASIC ;-). When you add and multiply with it, it can be very handy in certain situations. That's one of the reasons for LET, to avoid the ambiguity of X=Y being either an assignment or a numeric value. mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 13 18:00:38 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:00:38 -0400 Subject: BA11V Message-ID: <0JGG00I48L91HQN9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: BA11V > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:00:54 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> Sounds nice. I have a few BA-11VA (four dual width slots) >> and it's a challange to put enough boards to make a bootable >> viable sytem in that. An 11/23, 256k ram, DLV11J and a Rom > >As an aside, there was a thing in the UK called a 'York box' (I believe >it was developed at the University of York) to link machines to the >X25-based Janet (Joint Academic NETwork). > >It consisted of a BA11V box containing an SBC21 (Falcon) CPU, a 32KW RAM >card, a RRV11 (parallel port) and a DPV11 (sync serial port). The >DPV11 talked to the X25 network, the host system was connected either >using the DRV11 (16 bit parallel interface) or using one of the >asynchrononous serial interfaces on the SBC21. > >I belive it was used with VAX and certainly PERQ hosts (I think I have >the EPRQ software for it somewhere, I do have a York box in the pile...) Back here (and at DEC) we used them for RDC (remote diagnostic controller) also a falcon, a MXV11 or two (serial, rom and ram). Allison From davis at saw.net Sat Apr 14 03:27:16 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:27:16 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704130743.12364.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <008c01c77d79$bd36aba0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461F5855.4030208@dunnington.plus.com> <200704130743.12364.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <46209064.2050502@saw.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > >Page 261 - "Apple, not Xerox, brought the concept of windows, icons, a mouse, >and pull-down menus (the WIMP interface) to a mass market..." > >Regards, >Lyle > > The qualifying portion of that sentence is "mass market". WIMP existed years before apple saw the inside of that garage. It's the same as stating Henry Ford invented the automobile. ( bad car analogy) Jim. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 14 08:13:19 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:13:19 -0400 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <200704140522.l3E5MqnF013332@floodgap.com> References: <200704140522.l3E5MqnF013332@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4620D36F.3040808@atarimuseum.com> You can find several places that make an ST to VGA adapter cable which is good. Ram upgrades are all very easy to install and you can find them from B&C Computervisions - www.myatari.com and from Best Electronics - www.best-electronics-ca.com Look at places like atariage.com in its ST section, several very easy homebrew IDE interfaces are available or you can pick up a MegaFile HD which plugs into Atari's ACSI interface (a slight variant on SCSI with its own self assigning drive # system) It all comes down to what you are planning to use the ST for, also if you want to Internet enable your ST look into getting an Ethernec card - its an NE2000 unit that plugs into the cartridge port and uses a modified version of the STing Ip protocol. Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I have the original 130ST shown at the 1985 CES. >> > > There was only one? > > >> STacy's are remarkable machines and when you take into account that they >> were smaller and lighter then the Mac portable and its honk'n lead acid >> battery - the STacy was a truly remarkable machine. >> > > Any recommendations for "must get" upgrades? Is it worth it putting more > RAM in it? How difficult is it to shoehorn a hard disk inside (I don't have > the unit yet, it's still in a Fedex truck somewhere). > > From davis at saw.net Sat Apr 14 04:36:18 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:36:18 -0700 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es><200704111851.OAA15912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070411191809.GA27178@darwin.ugr.es><00e801c77caa$c97e9870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461DFF54.8050803@saw.net> <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4620A092.5030701@saw.net> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > I bought the MINIX version for the Atari ST and installed it, but > >I used it as a toy, I don't remember recompiling the kernal. It had > >full kernal source, and all the tools to rebuild.... > > It sure came with the sources, but I'm 99.999999999999% certain you > could not rebuild the kernal because no compiler was included in the > distribution. > > >....I think you're mistaken saying it was useless. > > It certainly fulfilled it's aim of being a platform to learn about > modern OS design and implementation, but without applications or a way > to develop them, it's usefulness is ultimately limited (by what is > included in the distribution). > > Don't forget, very few people had 'net access back then, those of us > who were on-line were mostly on FidoNet and there was nothing online > for Minix that I could find (and I tried pretty hard). > > > >....supplied device access and process management was a good base to > >develop.... > > As long as you have a development tool.... :-) > > >....Anything with a prompt. > > LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the > command line (though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing > the source with "notepad" - who needs an IDE?). > > > TTFN - Pete. > > > Pete, I can't believe that MINIX lacked a C compiler and a 68K assembler. That's like giving away free cigarettes without matches. I googled around and as far as I can tell, the tools did exist. I'm going to install it on a emulator and see if you're correct. Jim To Be Continued.... From davis at saw.net Sat Apr 14 04:48:26 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:48:26 -0700 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <20070414032731.DDB1257FB5@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070414032731.DDB1257FB5@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4620A36A.4040802@saw.net> Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly were the wise words spake by Ensor > > >>LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the command line >>(though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing the source with >>"notepad" - who needs an IDE?). >> >> >> > >I use vedit as my editor for C in my day job.. When I do GUI work I use >PhAB (while still using vedit for the C files). For debugging I use >fprintf ()'s. > >Cheers, > >Bryan > > > > > Get a copy of brief, Best editor ever, excluding teco. I still use a simple printf for debug. It's hard to get a symbolic debugger working on broken, ROM based hardware. Jim. You gold key kids are all the same! LOL From davis at saw.net Sat Apr 14 04:58:22 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:58:22 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704140541.BAA27569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200704140541.BAA27569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4620A5BE.20104@saw.net> der Mouse wrote: >>The main differece [between 9820 language and] BASIC is hos you write >> >> > > God this is painful. I had a 9825 in my hands at wacky willys a few years ago. My better half didn't want anymore "junk", since I had been collecting apple hardware and had filled up another bedroom, since the garage was full. I passed since the printer didn't work. DUMB DUMB DUMB! The first time I played with that beauty was at a Portland educational computing conference in 1973 at the Hilton. I skipped school, and got busted by my math teacher. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 14 09:37:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> References: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200704141438.KAA29820@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The odd thing is that GWBASIC will pass a statement of the form >> X=Y=7, but Y will be 0 and X will be -1 at the conclusion of >> execution, regardless of the value of y or x at the beginning. >> OTOH, LET X=Y=3 will set both X and Y to 0. GWBASIC is full of >> stuff like this. > Eh???? Did I miss something? Yes, I think so. > Those are not multiple assignments but very useful logical tests. Then why do they change Y? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 14 09:40:03 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <4620D36F.3040808@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Apr 14, 7 09:13:19 am" Message-ID: <200704141440.l3EEe3qp014302@floodgap.com> > You can find several places that make an ST to VGA adapter cable which > is good. Will a CGA monitor be able to handle 320x200 lo-res? I wonder if people have tried hooking them up to Commodore 1902s or 1084s. If I use the composite lines from the monitor on a composite display, what happens to the main display on the STacy? Does it turn off or stay on? > Ram upgrades are all very easy to install and you can find them from B&C > Computervisions - www.myatari.com and from Best Electronics - > www.best-electronics-ca.com But, say, to run things like MIDI applications, games, etc., is it necessary to have more than 1MB RAM? > Look at places like atariage.com in its ST section, several very easy > homebrew IDE interfaces are available or you can pick up a MegaFile HD > which plugs into Atari's ACSI interface (a slight variant on SCSI with > its own self assigning drive # system) This implies that the internal interface for the STacy is SCSI. True? http://www.janthomas.org.uk/stacy.html The person I got it from was clueless and had no idea if it had an HD or not, although the screenshot just showed A and B "floppy drives" (but there was no second bracket), so installing an HD would be very nice if I can just get a SCSI mini drive from a donor Mac and slap that in. > It all comes down to what you are planning to use the ST for, also if > you want to Internet enable your ST look into getting an Ethernec card - > its an NE2000 unit that plugs into the cartridge port and uses a > modified version of the STing Ip protocol. I might look into that although the Commodores are starting to occupy more and more ports on the hub these days :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't treat fictional people as if they're real. It only encourages them. -- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 09:51:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:51:58 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> References: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4620881E.11016.A349B30@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 4:38, M H Stein wrote: > ------------Original Message: > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on > ebay!) > > On 14 Apr 2007 at 1:34, der Mouse wrote: > > > Well, and, this is an expression rather than a statement; you could do > > things like R(X+(1->C))->A (somewhat akin to the way C lets you write > > a=r[x+(c=1)]) - did any BASICs do that? > > AFAIK, none of the usual suspects permit multiple assignments in a > statement. The odd thing is that GWBASIC will pass a statement of > the form X=Y=7, but Y will be 0 and X will be -1 at the conclusion > of execution, regardless of the value of y or x at the beginning. > OTOH, LET X=Y=3 will set both X and Y to 0. GWBASIC is full of > stuff like this. > > ------------Reply: > Eh???? Did I miss something? > > Those are not multiple assignments but very useful logical tests. I suspect that maybe you did. der Mouse said " things like R(X+(1->C))->A ". That looks like a multiple assignment to me. I said "X=Y=7" in GWBASIC changes both X and Y the same way regardless of their initial values. LET X=Y=7 changes them a different way, regardless of their initial values. If there's a conditional operator in either of those statements, I can't find it. Yes, it's true that BASIC doesn't differentiate lexically between the assignment operator and equality test, but that seems to be unrelated to the behavior of the two statements I gave. In fact, I don't know what the operation performed by GWBASIC is in "X=Y=7". Cheers, Chuck From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Apr 14 10:10:17 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:10:17 +0200 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <46204271.90000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/07 4:54 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have the original 130ST shown at the 1985 CES. The 260ST was > shipped to Europe in limited numbers. > > The 520ST was shipping to user groups and developers in June of 1985 and > then general retail in September of 1985 - it shipped with its OS - > "TOS" on Disks as the final prom's for the OS weren't ready at that > time, but followed shortly there after. > > In 1986 Atari shipped the 1040ST which had a full 1MB of ram and built > in floppy drive. 1040ST lacked a floppy drive. 520STF and 1040STF had floppy drives (hence the 'F'). ,xtG .tsooJ -- You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war. -- Joost van de Griek From wizard at voyager.net Sat Apr 14 10:55:29 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:55:29 -0400 Subject: SRI Century (Burroughs) Terminals Message-ID: <1176566130.14284.15.camel@linux.site> Hello, Retrocomputing fans, My first full-time job in the software field was at a company called Systems Research, Inc, in Okemos, Michigan, in the U.S.A. Our company made a front-end, based upon the HP-21MX machine, which could be used on a Burroughs Medium System, and take the load of Burroughs' burdensome TD-830 terminal protocol off of the main processor. They also produced terminals which emulated the TD-830. These terminals were called the SRI Century Terminal. The software engineers managed to fit the entire code for the protocol into 7K of ROM memory. That left 1K on the ROM open. Some of us were asked to write a TTY protocol for the same machine, so it could be a dual-purpose terminal -- and to fit it into the remaining 1K. To make a long, reasonably interesting story short, we did. In the process, we wrote some of the UGLIEST code I've ever seen, including a jump into string storage, just because, if one pushed a register or two on the stack, it would get done what was needed, and save almost ten bytes. Anyway, I digress. I have a fondness for this example of jungle coding, and would like to obtain one of these terminals. Realistically speaking, the terminal was not a remarkable item; it was made on a standard OEM frame. It does have sentimental value to me. I've located some of my old cohorts, and none of them knows where to find one of those terminals. Burroughs ended up buying SRI, causing me, and many others, to leave, and they gave the Century their own name. Unfortunately, I don't know what that name might be. And, whatever THAT name might be, it could have been changed to another when the Unisys name took over. If anyone has any information about this machine, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jvdg at jvdg.net Sat Apr 14 09:12:38 2007 From: jvdg at jvdg.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:12:38 +0200 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <46204271.90000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/07 4:54 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have the original 130ST shown at the 1985 CES. The 260ST was > shipped to Europe in limited numbers. > > The 520ST was shipping to user groups and developers in June of 1985 and > then general retail in September of 1985 - it shipped with its OS - > "TOS" on Disks as the final prom's for the OS weren't ready at that > time, but followed shortly there after. > > In 1986 Atari shipped the 1040ST which had a full 1MB of ram and built > in floppy drive. 1040ST lacked a floppy drive. 520STF and 1040STF had floppy drives (hence the 'F'). ,xtG .tsooJ -- You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war. -- Joost van de Griek From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 14 09:13:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:13:04 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method Message-ID: <0JGH00DTJRHJZKL6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Dreaming of a lean installation method > From: davis > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:36:18 -0700 > To: General at saw.net, "Discussion at saw.net":On-Topic Posts Only > > >Ensor wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> > I bought the MINIX version for the Atari ST and installed it, but >> >I used it as a toy, I don't remember recompiling the kernal. It had >> >full kernal source, and all the tools to rebuild.... >> >> It sure came with the sources, but I'm 99.999999999999% certain you >> could not rebuild the kernal because no compiler was included in the >> distribution. >> >> >....I think you're mistaken saying it was useless. >> >> It certainly fulfilled it's aim of being a platform to learn about >> modern OS design and implementation, but without applications or a way >> to develop them, it's usefulness is ultimately limited (by what is >> included in the distribution). >> >> Don't forget, very few people had 'net access back then, those of us >> who were on-line were mostly on FidoNet and there was nothing online >> for Minix that I could find (and I tried pretty hard). Minix is not up to V3.x and easily found on the net even old V1.5. It's sources are available. It does not come with a compiler after all it's an OS. It was expected that MINIX would be cross compiled on a platform that supports a suitable compiler. there is nothing to say it's not possibel to create a native MINIX compiler and then run/compile natively assuming the platform is big enough to support it. I might point out that CP/M was initially cross compiled on a PDP10 for the 8080 and in the later years rewritten in C and a VAX was used. It's not unusual to have a OS that does not come supplied with compilation tools. Allison From zmerch-coco at 30below.com Sat Apr 14 10:34:57 2007 From: zmerch-coco at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:34:57 -0400 Subject: Classic/Modern/Retro IDEs (was: Dreaming of a lean installation method Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070414113454.05589ed8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ensor may have mentioned these words: >LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the command >line (though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing the source >with "notepad" - who needs an IDE?). Needs? Well... dunno about "needs" but Roger Taylor over at www.coco3.com has written a beautimus IDE called "Rainbow" that you can interface your favorite assembler into (It comes with CCASM, a very nice 6809 assembler) and is interfaced right with M.E.S.S. so with several classic machine emulations, click a button, all the assembling is done, if there's no errors, it automagically creates/formats/writes the .dsk files & starts M.E.S.S. with the disk already mounted & ready to go. It makes writing & debugging code for the CoCo a dream, and he's expanding it to include other machines & assemblers so you can write code for the Commodore 64, Atari 800, etc. type machines. The software is new, and technically you could use it to write code for an offtopic machine, but it really is aimed at the ol' 8-bitters, so hopefully this isn't too offtopic. IMHO, it's a lot closer than where the whole Linux thread...[1] I'm not affiliated with him other than being a very satisfied customer. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Damn Small Linux (http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/). Whole distro's 50 Meg, boots from CD/USB/HD, runs in RAM, with X. Pretty slick. ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From jwest at ezwind.net Sat Apr 14 11:07:36 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:07:36 -0500 Subject: dec stuff available & wanted Message-ID: <000701c77eaf$0725e8d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> As I go through & clean up my unibus type stuff I have come across a few things I know for sure I don't want or I have way more of than I thought.... RX01 drive (needs a lot of cleanup), two RX01 unibus controllers a large stack of M7800's DR11 dec and clones A lot of dec corp cabs (white/beige) in various sizes Items I'll need if anyone has available: RX02 unibus controller Cable that connects RL02 controller to backpanel bulkhead (and bulkhead connector), or controller to drive cable Cable and rackmount panel for DZ11 Top cable clamp for BAll-K Misc. 861 power controller 3-pin molex cables Console cable from M7856 to DB25 RL02 cable from controller to back of rack I have a 3rd party 4 serial port unibus board - I'd love the cables that go from the card to the backpanel bulkhead & connector From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 14 11:11:00 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:11:00 -0700 Subject: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller Message-ID: <4620FD14.5060009@bitsavers.org> > Most hardware > derived from the Everex design, whether it is a controller and > drive with a qic-24 -> qic 2 card, and a simple bus interface These all came from the Wangtek QIC-24 bridge board design, the PC-36. I just noticed I have the OEM manual for the board, will put it up under Wangtek in an hour or two. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Apr 14 11:10:26 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:10:26 -0400 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <200704141440.l3EEe3qp014302@floodgap.com> References: <4620D36F.3040808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070414120504.05557c10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: >This implies that the internal interface for the STacy is SCSI. True? > > http://www.janthomas.org.uk/stacy.html My STacy has an internal SCSI Drive - I could take pictures if you like; the machine is not currently assembled. Unfortunately, I can't actually rectify that situation, the baggie I had with all the screws for the case & whatnot was discarded by my wife a few years back -- when I received the machine, it was as a non-working unit and would probably need (at least) some soldering work - this rascal's been rather dodgily modified, but worked for quite a while. Lotsa cold solder joints, tho. :-/ If you do take yours apart, could you tell me what size/length/pitch screws are needed so I can go buy more? I really would like to get the unit working again. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 14 11:15:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:15:34 -0400 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <461FC738.7309.7431A21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070411173355.GL4343@darwin.ugr.es>, <003601c77e2f$7dbeafc0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461FC738.7309.7431A21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5F71AB3C-882A-4CF1-9CB5-999AE264BCE8@neurotica.com> On Apr 13, 2007, at 9:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> LOL, the 6809 assembler I'm using at the moment is run from the >> command line >> (though I'm firing it up through a batch file and editing the >> source with >> "notepad" - who needs an IDE?). > > I can honestly claim that the closest thing to an IDE that I've ever > used for any language was the "Electric C" extension for emacs. And > even then, I didn't use it for long. It just got in the way. I'm right there with you. I've tried a few IDEs...some are kinda nice, but they definitely get in the way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 14 12:17:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:17:15 -0600 Subject: Dreaming of a lean installation method In-Reply-To: <0JGH00DTJRHJZKL6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGH00DTJRHJZKL6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46210C9B.5090302@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > I might point out that CP/M was initially cross compiled on a PDP10 > for the 8080 and in the later years rewritten in C and a VAX was used. > It's not unusual to have a OS that does not come supplied with > compilation tools. This is the 8086 with 640K of memory.The problem with minux 1.0 is the C-compiler was adapted to produce code specific for the 8086 architecture. Only once you go to a non-segmented design can you get a real OS and a real Compiler. > Allison > > > . > From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 14 13:03:17 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:03:17 -0300 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Message-ID: <01C77EAA.F5D58620@mse-d03> -------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:37:11 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) >> The odd thing is that GWBASIC will pass a statement of the form >> X=Y=7, but Y will be 0 and X will be -1 at the conclusion of >> execution, regardless of the value of y or x at the beginning. >> OTOH, LET X=Y=3 will set both X and Y to 0. GWBASIC is full of >> stuff like this. > Eh???? Did I miss something? Yes, I think so. > Those are not multiple assignments but very useful logical tests. Then why do they change Y? ------------Reply: They don't. That's why I think I must have missed something. m From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 14 13:37:47 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:37:47 -0300 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Message-ID: <01C77EAA.F7579240@mse-d03> ------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:51:58 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) I said "X=Y=7" in GWBASIC changes both X and Y the same way regardless of their initial values. LET X=Y=7 changes them a different way, regardless of their initial values. If there's a conditional operator in either of those statements, I can't find it. Yes, it's true that BASIC doesn't differentiate lexically between the assignment operator and equality test, but that seems to be unrelated to the behavior of the two statements I gave. In fact, I don't know what the operation performed by GWBASIC is in "X=Y=7". Cheers, Chuck ----------Reply: We can't be talking about the same thing here; I program a fair bit in BASIC and use this technique quite often; (Y=7) is equivalent to 0 or -1 (0000H or FFFFH, depending on Y, when it is in a place where a numeric variable is expected. So if I read your examples correctly, when Y is 7 then (Y=7) is -1; in essence TRUE has a value of -1 and FALSE has a value of 0. The conditional operator is implied, which is why it's useful when an explicit IF/THEN is awkward; If Y=7 then (Y=7) is -1 else (Y=7) is 0. Y never changes. No? Just try: Y=7:PRINT Y=7: Y=6: PRINT Y=7 or: Y=7:PRINT Y>6:Y=6:PRINT Y>6 or: A$="X":PRINT A$="X":A$="Y":PRINT A$="X" or, to make it even more obscure: INPUT "Guess a letter":A$:PRINT mid$("WRONGRIGHT",-(A$="Z")*5+1,5) Admittedly, it's counterintuitive; X=Y=7 sure looks like a multiple assignment. m From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 14 14:36:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:36:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704140541.BAA27569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Apr 14, 7 01:34:41 am Message-ID: > > > The main differece [between 9820 language and] BASIC is hos you write > > an asignment. Rather than C=A+B, you write A+B->C (wehre -> is a > > right-arrow, called 'Gozinta' in some technical docs I've seen) > > Well, and, this is an expression rather than a statement; you could do > things like R(X+(1->C))->A (somewhat akin to the way C lets you write > a=r[x+(c=1)]) - did any BASICs do that? I beleive there was at least one BASIC where you could write A=B=0 (and it meant assinge 0 to A and to B, not set A to the boolean value of the compariston between B and 0, which it meant in some other BASICs) > And the way conditionals behaved. (Were there any BASICs that let you > stack statements on a line and for which conditionals always controlled > the rest of the line?) That was quite common. A lot of BASICs would take a line like IF X=0 THEN Y=SIN(D):Z=D*D+2 and do both assingments iff X equalled 0 > > You may have gatehrered I rather like this family of machines..... > > I think you said as much a post or two ago. :-) > > I'm tempted to try to find one purely for nostalgia reasons. (Tempted. Be warned that none are particularly common, and the 9820 is the second-rarest of the lot (the 9821 is the rarest, I am still looking for one). Also, they tend to have faults by now (all 3 of mine, a 9810, a 9820 and a 9830 have needed electronic repairs), and being a bit-serial machine, a logic analuser is pretty much essential However, I am happy to help anyone who's trying to get one of these machines going in any way I can (ohter, of course, than providing boards to swap :-)) > I probably won't actually do it, unless one more or less falls into my > lap cheap. For one thing, I've been too spoiled since then by using > much more powerful and pleasant languages.) If you want to run the old programs and get the feel of the machine again, I am told there's a pretty good HP98x0 emulator on the web, and I think it's open-sourve (and maybe written in Java, but I wouldn't bet on that). It emulates the 9810, 9820 and 9830 from what I've heard. Having got the real macvhines, and not having got anything to run the emulator on, I've not tried it, but it might be of interest. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 14 14:27:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:27:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <4C29B101-7EF3-4873-AA14-30A3133639AE@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 13, 7 09:59:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Apr 13, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyway, I've cured the electronic fault (a defective shift register > > chip > > in the M register circuit). There are 3 other faults. One is that > > an edge > > connector has been removed from the I/O backplane (and removed very > > well, > > I might add, there is no damage at all to the PCB tracks). I can > > get one > > from Digikey or somewhere. > > How odd...Why would someone have removed that connector?? It puzzles me too. The connector in question is a normal, double-sided 25 pin (per side) 0.156" pitch edge connector. That's actually not a common size in the UK (0.156" pitch is not normally used over here), so it's probably somebody 'borrowed' it becuase it was the easiest way to get that sort of connector. The I/O backplane (where this connector whould be) provides 4 idencial slots at the back of the machine for interface models, the PCBs of which plug into those edge connectors. Now, unless you have one of the optional I/O ROMs like 'Peripheral Control) (and this machine didn't come with anything like that, only the maths ROM), these slots are pretty much useless because you can't send data to the interfaces. So removing that connector was probalby not a great loss for the original owner. And as I said it was removed very carefully with no damage tyo the backplane PCB at all. My first guess was that the connector had been used to repair this machine, possibly to replace a damaged conenctor between the memory box and the main backplane. But upon removing the latter, it was clear this was not the case, no other soldering in the machine has been disturbed. Oh well, this is not a major problem in that a suitable replacement part is available, sond soldering it in is not a problem for me. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 14 13:59:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:59:49 -0300 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Message-ID: <01C77EAD.EFFB1500@mse-d03> -----------Original Message: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:51:58 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Yes, it's true that BASIC doesn't differentiate lexically between the assignment operator and equality test, but that seems to be unrelated to the behavior of the two statements I gave. In fact, I don't know what the operation performed by GWBASIC is in "X=Y=7". Cheers, Chuck -------------Reply #2: Maybe what's missing in my blathering is that when BASIC does a conditional test it's actually looking for a non-zero number in whatever its argument is, which could be a logical expression (which returns 0 or -1) or simply a variable. So instead of IF A <> 0 THEN... you can just say IF A THEN..., something you'll see throughout my sloppy code ;-). m From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 15:29:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:29:52 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <01C77EAD.EFFB1500@mse-d03> References: <01C77EAD.EFFB1500@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4620D750.2973.B69FB2B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 15:59, M H Stein wrote: > Maybe what's missing in my blathering is that when BASIC does a > conditional test it's actually looking for a non-zero number in whatever > its argument is, which could be a logical expression (which returns 0 or -1) > or simply a variable. > > So instead of IF A <> 0 THEN... you can just say IF A THEN..., > something you'll see throughout my sloppy code ;-). I tried it again this afternoon and it works as you said. But last night, I tried it over and over again in my GWBASIC and got the results that I mentioned. No mistake--I'm certain of it--I had to repeat it about 5 times to make sure that I wasn't imagining things. Either that or I need to have my ginger ale tested for hallucinogens. It DOES point out the obvious need for LET in some cases. LET X=Y=7 is different from X=Y=7. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 15:42:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:42:03 -0600 Subject: govliq: 6 RL02 disk drives, NIB (Columbus, OH) Message-ID: Looks like a great find. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 15:43:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:43:21 -0600 Subject: govliq: SAIC Digital Computer (Fort Jackson, SC) Message-ID: SAIC DIGITAL COMPUTER, MODEL CP-2112C(V)I/ U, HARD DRIVE REMOVED, P/ N 50308, INCLUDES ACCESSORIES, OPERATING CONDITION UNKNOWN. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 15:53:28 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:53:28 -0600 Subject: govliq: 5 RA60-P disk packs, NIB (Jacksonville, FL) Message-ID: LOT APPROX (7) OFFICE EQUIPMENT INCLUDES: DIGITAL RA60P DISK SET MAGNETIC 15";204 MB FORMATTED CAP (NEW), AMFIT SCANNER IMAGES, HEAD SET -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 15:55:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:55:44 -0600 Subject: govliq: 7 TS05 tape drives in rough shape (Mechanicsburg, PA) Message-ID: Along with 7 pallets of other crap. LOT (7)PLTS OF OFFICE & COMPUTER EQUIPMENT TO INCL:(2)SHREDDERS, (1)FELLOWES POWER SHRED 420HS, (1)SCHLEICER INTIMUS 0075, (2)CANON PC PRINTER 80, (1)EPSON LQ-1500 PRINTER, (1)ELMO MDL EV-500AF VISUAL PRESENTER, (1)FUJITSU DUPLEX SCANNER, (1)INTERMEC PN 4400DT0002100 PRINTER, (1)CANOSCAN 5000F, (2)EPSON STYLUS C84 PRINTERS, (1)IDEAL MDL FSS4300 DSP FULL SCALE SCANNER, (1)ACER SCAN WIT 2740S SCANNER, (7)DIGITAL MDL TS05AA MAGNETIC TRANSPORT, 50/ 60HZ, 120V, 220W, 3A -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 15:57:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:57:21 -0600 Subject: govliq: IBM System (702100 CPU?) (Fort Polk, LA) Message-ID: IBM SYSTEM RACK 200-240V 50/ 60HZ TYPE 7015 PHASE1 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:02:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:02:42 -0600 Subject: govliq: 100 DLT Tape IV 40/80 GB cartridges NIB (Mechanicsburg, PA) Message-ID: LOT (APPROX 100)QUANTUM DLT TAPE IV 40/ 80 GB 0. 5" DATA CARTRIDGES -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 16:07:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:07:44 -0700 Subject: govliq: SAIC Digital Computer (Fort Jackson, SC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4620E030.21312.B8CA768@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 14:43, Richard wrote: > SAIC DIGITAL COMPUTER, MODEL CP-2112C(V)I/ U, HARD DRIVE REMOVED, P/ N > 50308, INCLUDES ACCESSORIES, OPERATING CONDITION UNKNOWN. > Does this unit have a plasma display? Almost looks like it. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:08:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:08:09 -0600 Subject: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX) Message-ID: LOT (5)ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT INCLUDES HP 3330B SYNTHESIZER, HP 214A PULSE GENERATOR, DEC LG01 PRINTER, RONAN X76ETM4X GAS ALARM CONTROLLER, TRANSFORMERS, STANCEL RECORDER/ REPRODUCER -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:11:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:11:50 -0600 Subject: govliq: CDC tape rolls? (French Camp, CA) Message-ID: LOT (1) TRIWALL OF COMPUTER PARTS AND EQUIPMENT, BATCH LOT, INCLUDES: DISC DRIVE UNIT, COMPUTER INKING ROLLER, TAPE PAPER REEL, PLASTIC BALL, CAPSTAN DISC DRIVE, DISKETTE ADAPTER, FAN, GEAR AND PULLEY, AND MORE -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:13:28 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:13:28 -0600 Subject: govliq: Apollo Series 734 (Richmond, VA) Message-ID: LOT (28) INCLUDE (1) MOTOROLA, MDL# UNKNOWN, SN# A05053307, DIGITAL HARDRIVE, (1) HEWLETT PACKARD, MDL# APOLLO SERIES 734, SN# 6501A0005, DATA PROCESSOR TERMINAL. (2) XEROX CORP, MDL# N2125, AUTO PRINTER, 110/ 127V, 7 AMPS, 50/ 60 HZ. (1) HEWLETT PACKARD, MDL# C3917A, AUTO PRINTER, 7. 8 AMPS, 100/ 120V, 50/ 60 HZ. (25) KEYTRONIC, MDL# E03601QL-C. (1) ORTEK TECH CORP, MDL# MCK-600W. (1) GATEWAY, MDL# G9900. (1) CHICONY ELEC. CO. MDL# KB5911. (1) HEWLETT PACKARD, P/ N C4735-60101. (1) SEJIN ELEC CORP, MDL# SKR1033. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 14 16:32:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> References: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20070414142732.U40187@shell.lmi.net> > AFAIK, none of the usual suspects permit multiple assignments in a > statement. The odd thing is that GWBASIC will pass a statement of > the form X=Y=7, but Y will be 0 and X will be -1 at the conclusion > of execution, regardless of the value of y or x at the beginning. > OTOH, LET X=Y=3 will set both X and Y to 0. GWBASIC is full of > stuff like this. > > ------------Reply: On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, M H Stein wrote: > Eh???? Did I miss something? > Those are not multiple assignments but very useful logical tests. > If a logical argument is true, it has the numeric value of -1, else 0, > thus, if Y=7 then x= -1 else x= 0, whether you LET it or not, at least > in the BASICs I work in (and even GWBASIC ;-). When you add and > multiply with it, it can be very handy in certain situations. > > That's one of the reasons for LET, to avoid the ambiguity of X=Y being > either an assignment or a numeric value. So, apparently it is parsing it as x = (Y==7); An alternative to LET is to have different symbols for assignment v comparison. == , .EQ. etc I always liked the APL X <- 3, which also avoids the beginner mistake of 3 = x From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:47:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:47:32 -0600 Subject: govliq: CDC disk platter NIB (French Camp, CA) Message-ID: LOT (1) TRIWALL OF COMPUTER PARTS, BATCH LOT, INCLUDES: FLEXIBLE DISK, ELECTRONIC DATA TAPE, DISK DRIVE UNIT, PRINTER TAPE, PRINTER, DVD/ VCR PLAYER, VIDEO RECORDER, MIC MIXER, AND MORE Can't quite make out what kind of platter it is... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:49:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:49:55 -0600 Subject: govliq: RL02 NIB (Mechanicsburg, PA) Message-ID: LOT (2)PLTS COMPUTER EQUIPMENT TO INCL:(8)SAIC PN 50786 AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING PRINTERS, (1)MILTOPE PN 497669-2 AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING PRINTER, (1)GENERAL DATACOM GPS15 POWER SUPPLY, (1)PLATT COMPUTER CASE, (1)DOTRONIX MDL DXM 1211A TV MONITOR, (1)DIGITAL MDL RD-517/ G DISK DRIVE UNIT -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 16:52:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:52:32 -0600 Subject: govliq: SAIC Digital Computer (Fort Jackson, SC) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:07:44 -0700. <4620E030.21312.B8CA768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4620E030.21312.B8CA768 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 14 Apr 2007 at 14:43, Richard wrote: > > > SAIC DIGITAL COMPUTER, MODEL CP-2112C(V)I/ U, HARD DRIVE REMOVED, P/ N > > 50308, INCLUDES ACCESSORIES, OPERATING CONDITION UNKNOWN. > > > > Does this unit have a plasma display? Almost looks like it. The second picture shows buttons for "LCD Brightness" and "LCD Contrast" so I'd guess its LCD and not plasma. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 14 16:50:57 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:50:57 -0700 Subject: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller In-Reply-To: <4620FD14.5060009@bitsavers.org> References: <4620FD14.5060009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46214CC1.7010008@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > Wangtek in an hour or two. From the driver: 0x01 is READY (bit 0) 0x02 is EXCP (bit 1) 0x04 is direction bit (bit 2) so the low bits are 0x05 for ready=1, no exception I had stated that bit 2 (0x04) was the data transfer bit, bit it is actually the read / write indicator, or data direction. This is used to decide whether to read the data port or write the data port, which is 1 port address higher than the control / status port The driver hard codes STATUSREG as 0x0300, so the data reg or port would be 0x0301. Also from the driver if you output a 0x02, and then a 0x00, your drive should probably go thru a reset, which would make the head stepper buzz and seek to 0, and the tape be rewound. Page 23 of the manual Al posted on Bitsavers has the 10 location switch, which hopefully will match the one asked about earlier. Look under wangtek at 63149-001_PC-36_OEM_Manual_Dec86.pdf for the manual.. Al also posted a "30062-XXX_jumpers.pdf" which has the drive jumper settings. I would be very careful to record jumpers on the drive, as they are usually not something that has to be altered for normal operation. For this manual. The above comments for driver code are taken from the PC-36 application notes manual for the PC-36. Note that there may be oem commands that do things with your tape drive that won't match up with the manual, but the PC-36 Wangtek was used by a lot of vendors besides wangtek for their Qic drives, and can be use as good spot to start hacking. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 14 17:48:13 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070414120504.05557c10@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Apr 14, 7 12:10:26 pm" Message-ID: <200704142248.l3EMmDp8007266@floodgap.com> > > This implies that the internal interface for the STacy is SCSI. True? > > > > http://www.janthomas.org.uk/stacy.html > > My STacy has an internal SCSI Drive - I could take pictures if you like; Nah, I'll rip mine open and look. I just need to know if it's a regular laptop sized drive. > If you do take yours apart, could you tell me what size/length/pitch screws > are needed so I can go buy more? I really would like to get the unit > working again. Sure. It'll be a bit of time because it's still in transit, but when I tear it down I'll try to get a measurement for you. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From ned_rapp at bellsouth.net Sat Apr 14 14:47:36 2007 From: ned_rapp at bellsouth.net (Edward Rapp) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:47:36 -0400 Subject: Remex Director Tape Reader Docs? Message-ID: <000001c77ecd$c19ebe30$7d01a8c0@D2LRJYB1> I would like to have a copy of this if you don't mind. Thanks, Edward Rapp ned_rapp at bellsouth.net (336) 339-0561 From hirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 16:25:47 2007 From: hirsch at gmail.com (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > Pete writes: > >>> FBOFW, modern "free" *nix ports tend to use gcc, and gcc is >>> such a resource hog for anything smaller than a VAX. Even on >>> a VAX it's colossaly slow. >> >> Augh....any idea how it fares on, say, Sun or SGI machines? > > GCC runs OK on SGIs, provided that you have a version that coexists with the > version of IRIX that you're running (later (3.2+) versions don't like pre-5 > IRIXes. GCC will likely be quite unsatisfactory, though, because the > optimization on MIPS machines is not very good, and especially bad with 2.x > versions. Pre 3.4 versions don't play nicely with MIPSpro/MIPSCC object code, > either. > > SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will probably have to > use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are both hard to come by and > nodelocked. Are you talking about the SUNWspro tools? Those are available for free download from Sun. I think they call it Studio 11, or something like that. -- From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Apr 14 16:26:29 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:26:29 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46214705.4030204@msu.edu> Thanks for all the responses to my questions regarding my problem -- I think I understand the situation a bit better now; just to make sure, since the terminology (mostly around "controllers" vs. "interface boards," etc...) seems to be used somewhat loosely, I'll attempt to sum up the discussion so that I can eliminate any confusion on my behalf... So... a complete Model II/16/6000/etc. hard drive setup (for the 8mb, 8" drive -- I'm ignoring other potential configurations at the moment) would consist of the following hardware: 1. The proper host interface board (this is the card that goes in the Model II/16/etc. cardcage) 2. The actual hard drive controller (which lives in the primary hard drive enclosure) 3. One or more SA1004 8" hard drives (in primary/secondary enclosures) What I have at the moment is 1 & 3; since my drive is a secondary drive I lack #2. (And I did double check, to make sure -- my enclosure contains the drive and a power supply, but no controller board.) From the responses I've received I get the impression it's possible to substitute a hard drive controller for a 5mb TRS-80 hard drive for #2 -- I do happen to have one of these (I have a Model 4 external 5mb drive with a broken drive)... if it is possible to do this, can anyone provide details on how it's done? Thanks once again, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 18:39:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:39:36 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <20070414142732.U40187@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03>, <20070414142732.U40187@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <462103C8.3979.C17ADB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 14:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > So, apparently it is parsing it as x = (Y==7); > > > An alternative to LET is to have different symbols for assignment v > comparison. == , .EQ. etc Being an old FORTRAN hacker, I have a weakness for .EQ. .NE. .GT. .GE. .LT. .LE. No special characters; no digraphs to remember--and no confusion with the assignment operator. Same for .OR. .AND. .NOT. Some FORTRANs doubled the application of the latter for binary arithmetic and added .XOR., .SHL. and .SHR. (shift left, shift right). There's something to be said for small character sets. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 14 19:01:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:01:19 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... In-Reply-To: <46214705.4030204@msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Josh Dersch ---snip--- > > >From the responses I've received I get the impression it's possible to >substitute a hard drive controller for a 5mb TRS-80 hard drive for #2 -- I >do happen to have one of these (I have a Model 4 external 5mb drive with a >broken drive)... if it is possible to do this, can anyone provide details >on how it's done? > >Thanks once again, >Josh Hi It might be simpler to remove the hard drive from the 8 Meg box and install it in the 5 Meg box. As I recall there were a number of wires that were connected directly to the 5 Meg drive. These essentially connect the front write protect switch and drive the light on the front panel. I believe these can be ignored. The power and signal cables are the same. You might need to check the drive select jumper on the 8 Meg to match the first drive. The 5 Meg controller should connect to the interface card. There is a site that has manuals for the 5 Meg drive including schematics. I've misplaced the pointer for it but it is the one with all of the TRS80 manuals. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18679&moid=7581 From pechter at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 19:20:01 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:20:01 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah... that's good for Solaris 9 and stuff... try to find a copy for SunOS4 on a Sparcstation2. The problem is I don't know if the new Sun Studio tools would be any good on the old Classic boxes. I tend to think not. Bill On 4/14/07, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > Pete writes: > > > >>> FBOFW, modern "free" *nix ports tend to use gcc, and gcc is > >>> such a resource hog for anything smaller than a VAX. Even on > >>> a VAX it's colossaly slow. > >> > >> Augh....any idea how it fares on, say, Sun or SGI machines? > > > > GCC runs OK on SGIs, provided that you have a version that coexists with > the > > version of IRIX that you're running (later (3.2+) versions don't like > pre-5 > > IRIXes. GCC will likely be quite unsatisfactory, though, because the > > optimization on MIPS machines is not very good, and especially bad with > 2.x > > versions. Pre 3.4 versions don't play nicely with MIPSpro/MIPSCC object > code, > > either. > > > > SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will probably > have to > > use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are both hard to come by and > > nodelocked. > > Are you talking about the SUNWspro tools? Those are available for free > download from Sun. I think they call it Studio 11, or something like > that. > > > > -- > > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 19:43:08 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 19:43:08 -0500 Subject: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone here successfully bid on and received anything from govliquidation.com? Their site has every bit the ease-of-use I'd expect from a government facility. The purchase and shipping process looks equally intimidating. -j On 4/14/07, Richard wrote: > LOT (5)ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT INCLUDES HP 3330B SYNTHESIZER, HP 214A > PULSE GENERATOR, DEC LG01 PRINTER, RONAN X76ETM4X GAS ALARM > CONTROLLER, TRANSFORMERS, STANCEL RECORDER/ REPRODUCER > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 14 19:47:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:47:30 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >> SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will >> probably have to use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are >> both hard to come by and nodelocked. > > Are you talking about the SUNWspro tools? Those are available for > free download from Sun. I think they call it Studio 11, or > something like that. This is correct...it has been free and non-nodelocked for some time now. The current release of Sun Studio is 11, and it's available Linux on x86, and for Solaris on both SPARC and x86. It's a fantastic compiler suite...it's all I use for my development. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 14 20:57:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 19:57:01 -0600 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <462103C8.3979.C17ADB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03>, <20070414142732.U40187@shell.lmi.net> <462103C8.3979.C17ADB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4621866D.2090704@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's something to be said for small character sets. No answer ... I guess not. Offhand I like the idea of '<-' instead of =. Also 5 or 6 character file names left much to be improved on. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Apr 14 20:17:34 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:17:34 -0400 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <200704142248.l3EMmDp8007266@floodgap.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070414120504.05557c10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070414211628.05017cc0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: > > > This implies that the internal interface for the STacy is SCSI. True? > > > > > > http://www.janthomas.org.uk/stacy.html > > > > My STacy has an internal SCSI Drive - I could take pictures if you like; > >Nah, I'll rip mine open and look. I just need to know if it's a regular >laptop sized drive. I'd have to look again - I'm not sure if it's a 3.5" wide drive, or 2.5" wide drive - but IIRC, it's a 3.5" drive. > > If you do take yours apart, could you tell me what size/length/pitch > screws > > are needed so I can go buy more? I really would like to get the unit > > working again. > >Sure. It'll be a bit of time because it's still in transit, but when I tear >it down I'll try to get a measurement for you. Thanks! I would certainly appreciate it! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 20:35:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:35:46 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <4621866D.2090704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C77E4E.D02234C0@mse-d03>, <462103C8.3979.C17ADB9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4621866D.2090704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46211F02.31333.C820AF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2007 at 19:57, woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There's something to be said for small character sets. > No answer ... I guess not. Offhand I like the idea of '<-' > instead of =. Remembering APL di- and tri-graphs was a big struggle for me. Was there ever a card punch code for APL? > Also 5 or 6 character file names left much to be improved on. That's not a FORTRAN limitation! Remember that FORTRAN uses file numbers, just like,uh--that other languge. Variables *were* limited to 6 characters, but that restriction was lifted in later versions. On the other extreme, I remember a gummint project involving about a thousand GSA programmers and COBOL. Variable names were codified by a rigidly enforced coding standard--something in the range of 30 characters long. Made for very tiresome reading of code, not to mention punching. They really drove home the idea that "COBOL is verbose". I always liked the CDC SCOPE idea of permanent vs. temporary/local files. You could have a permanent file with a very long name and any number of generations. When you wanted to use it, you'd simply "attach" it to a local file name that was accessible to your programs. Other pernanent files weren't accessible to your programs unless specifically "attached". Anything not specifically attached to a permanent file or having a predefined disposition (e.g. OUTPUT, PUNCH) was treated as a scratch file and discarded at job termination. The version idea was pretty neat--you normally would work with the latest version of the file, but you could specify an earlier version if desired. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 14 20:51:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:51:06 -0500 Subject: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX) References: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c77f00$88823270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jason wrote... > Has anyone here successfully bid on and received anything from > govliquidation.com? Yes, a few times. It's not intimidating really, just not as consumer oriented or polished as ebay. More of a commercial crowd. Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 14 20:55:52 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:55:52 -0700 Subject: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46218628.8060108@msm.umr.edu> Jason T wrote: > Has anyone here successfully bid on and received anything from > govliquidation.com? Their site has every bit the ease-of-use I'd > expect from a government facility. The purchase and shipping process > looks equally intimidating. > I have bought two lots thru this site and had no real problems. I avoided that by buying from a site that I could directly get to (Barstow Ca Marine Corps Logistics Base) and picking it up. YMMV. The main thing with this site that I have not tried is to use a third part to pick up, package and ship. I suspect that some of the listed vendors are okay for that and some will suck totally. I would say that this is a good site to watch, as a lot of times you can really still pick up things for a song. The down side is that you have to take to lots as they appear and deal with that. It isn't ebay, so they have less to do with the process, but at least the vendor isn't one w/o financial resources that you have to doubt. Jim From ballsandy at msn.com Sat Apr 14 22:22:02 2007 From: ballsandy at msn.com (john ball) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:22:02 -0700 Subject: Configuring an EV-833 QIC controller Message-ID: I looked through bitsavers and saw the articles you mentioned and I'm still a little lost. I'm looking over the jumper and dip switch settings and I'm not seeing any solid matches. I also don't trust going off other components that use the same design and try their jumpers. I tried that with an MFM card and it turns out that there were some changes between revisions and The card has never worked right since. Anyways, as for debugging, havn't used that command in years. _________________________________________________________________ Check Out Our List Of Trendy Restaurants. You'll Eat It Up! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!378 From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 14 23:44:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:44:40 -0300 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Message-ID: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> -------------Original Message Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:29:52 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) On 14 Apr 2007 at 15:59, M H Stein wrote: > Maybe what's missing in my blathering is that when BASIC does a > conditional test it's actually looking for a non-zero number in whatever > its argument is, which could be a logical expression (which returns 0 or -1) > or simply a variable. > > So instead of IF A <> 0 THEN... you can just say IF A THEN..., > something you'll see throughout my sloppy code ;-). I tried it again this afternoon and it works as you said. But last night, I tried it over and over again in my GWBASIC and got the results that I mentioned. No mistake--I'm certain of it--I had to repeat it about 5 times to make sure that I wasn't imagining things. Either that or I need to have my ginger ale tested for hallucinogens. It DOES point out the obvious need for LET in some cases. LET X=Y=7 is different from X=Y=7. Cheers, Chuck --------------Reply: Well, Chuck, as one old geezer to another, either one of us needs to be tested for Alzheimer's, you are indeed drinking or smoking some funny stuff, or you're using some obscure beta version of GWBASIC from the old days. AFAIK there is no difference whatsoever whether you use LET or not; what do you get that makes you believe otherwise? Perhaps there IS some particular set of circumstances where what you say happens, but I doubt that Bill would be interested in fixing it at this point in time... ------- Tony: >I beleive there was at least one BASIC where you could write A=B=0 (and >it meant assinge 0 to A and to B, not set A to the boolean value of the >compariston between B and 0, which it meant in some other BASICs) We were talking about GWBASIC, but you're probably quite right, and thank you for putting it more succinctly than my convoluted explanation. >A lot of BASICs would take a line like IF X=0 THEN Y=SIN(D):Z=D*D+2 >and do both assingments iff X equalled 0 GWBASIC included; in fact, it's because of the way IF/THEN works that the technique of avoiding it by using a boolean as a numeric variable is so useful at times. -------- Fred: >So, apparently it is parsing it as x = (Y==7); Exactly; thank you too for a much clearer explanation than mine. >An alternative to LET is to have different symbols for assignment v >comparison. == , .EQ. etc >I always liked the APL X <- 3, >which also avoids the beginner mistake of 3 = x Makes much more sense to me too, but let's not get into one of those BASIC-bashing language comparion threads; it's too easy a target... ;) m From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 15 01:11:45 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:11:45 -0500 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 In-Reply-To: <200704141440.l3EEe3qp014302@floodgap.com> References: <200704141440.l3EEe3qp014302@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4621C221.4060408@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> You can find several places that make an ST to VGA adapter cable which >> is good. > > Will a CGA monitor be able to handle 320x200 lo-res? I wonder if people > have tried hooking them up to Commodore 1902s or 1084s. Yup. I have a couple of Ataris - a 520ST and a Mega STe - and no color Atari display. My Commodore 1084 fronts just about all my 8-bit and 16-bit boxes. Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Apr 15 01:12:27 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 02:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704150615.CAA19544@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I'm tempted to try to find one purely for nostalgia reasons. >> (Tempted. I probably won't actually do it, unless one more or less >> falls into my lap cheap. For one thing, I've been too spoiled since >> then by using much more powerful and pleasant languages.) > If you want to run the old programs and get the feel of the machine > again, I am told there's a pretty good HP98x0 emulator on the web, > and I think it's open-sourve (and maybe written in Java, but I > wouldn't bet on that). The nostalgia value would come at least in large part from the printer, the display, the keyboard feel...things no emulator can do. I also suspect that the machine I used had a bunch of the optional software ROMs, like the one that provides trig, which I would expect to also be difficult to find. Thanks for the tip, though. Perhaps someday. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 15 08:02:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 07:02:02 -0600 Subject: purcahsing from govliq (was: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 14 Apr 2007 19:43:08 -0500. <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > Has anyone here successfully bid on and received anything from > govliquidation.com? Yes. If you need an end use statement, the paperwork drags it out the first time, but after that they keep stuff on file and things get a little easier. > Their site has every bit the ease-of-use I'd > expect from a government facility. They are a private company with a contract to liquidate all the stuff. The physical storage is done by the government, but the web site and all that goes around it is done by a private firm. > The purchase and shipping process > looks equally intimidating. If you don't need an end-use certificate for the item, purchase is no more difficult than anywhere else. They don't do shipping, that is your responsibility. I've not purchased anything remotely yet, just at the local Air Force base. If I purchased something remotely, I would use Crater & Freighters -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 08:15:58 2007 From: hirsch at gmail.com (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 09:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 14, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >>> SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will probably have >>> to use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are both hard to come by >>> and nodelocked. >> >> Are you talking about the SUNWspro tools? Those are available for free >> download from Sun. I think they call it Studio 11, or something like that. > > This is correct...it has been free and non-nodelocked for some time now. > The current release of Sun Studio is 11, and it's available Linux on x86, and > for Solaris on both SPARC and x86. It's a fantastic compiler suite...it's > all I use for my development. A _Linux_ version? That I was unaware of. Did they implement GNU compiler extensions like Intel have? Steve -- From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Apr 14 14:21:30 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:21:30 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <004f01c77e34$d63168f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <198820.28063.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com><001c01c77b21$61ced2b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <006e01c77b85$04fb8dd0$1802a8c0@JIMM> <004f01c77e34$d63168f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <462129BA.4000007@garlic.com> 1994-6: Generic ISA/VESA motherboard, 486DX-33, 16Mb RAM, 64Mb swap, VESA w/ 8Mb RAM, 1280x1024x24 colour. Linux 0.99, fvwm, X11R3, one local X session + one remote X session (@ 1600x1200x24) simultaneously. Typically 5 or 6 desktops w/ 4 windows each, about 10 xterms, some miscellaneous X apps, a couple X clients or so on the VAXen, etc. Much better than the officially approved motif and DECWindoze at the time. Worked just fine, even while running batch jobs for the report stuff the VAX could not do. Also had a few telnet sessions going on rather frequently from remotes. And ran the http server on the box, too. Almost forgot about that one... Used the Andrew Mail System. Heyyuva lot better than the garbage-gui clients now available. Certainly better than Netscape Mail at the time, too. That was just one of the several 486DX and 386DX systems I used for Linux at the time. They worked so well that it was not until after the Celeron came out that I got new hardware. Maybe I was just too ignorant at the time to know that all this was impossible. Come to think of it, a lot of people didn't believe that all that stuff happened in that tiny box that looked-like-a-windoze-computer. Never tried sysV or Xenix: The price to feature ratio was a bad joke. And support, especially from SCO... Well, I've seen cowpies provide better tech support. BSD wouldn't run well, if at all. -- jd Malek's Law: Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 15 10:29:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:29:33 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 15, 2007, at 9:15 AM, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >>>> SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will >>>> probably have to use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are >>>> both hard to come by and nodelocked. >>> Are you talking about the SUNWspro tools? Those are available >>> for free download from Sun. I think they call it Studio 11, or >>> something like that. >> >> This is correct...it has been free and non-nodelocked for some >> time now. The current release of Sun Studio is 11, and it's >> available Linux on x86, and for Solaris on both SPARC and x86. >> It's a fantastic compiler suite...it's all I use for my development. > > A _Linux_ version? That I was unaware of. Yup...I don't know when they released it, but I think it was sometime last summer. > Did they implement GNU compiler extensions like Intel have? I doubt it, and I sure hope not. Rampant, undisciplined use of the GCC "extensions" cause great gnashing of teeth for everyone not running GCC under Linux on a PC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 10:36:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:36:50 -0700 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> References: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4621E422.2190.F840A24@cclist.sydex.com> Well, I'm not going to waste any time on the GWBASIC thing. The version I'm using is 3.20 from 1986 running under Win2K. I figure the thing's just turned 21 and has started drinking... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 10:39:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:39:56 -0700 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> References: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be useful for a lot these days. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 15 10:52:56 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 15, 7 08:39:56 am" Message-ID: <200704151552.l3FFquu2007786@floodgap.com> > One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE > (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an > 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be > useful for a lot these days. Speaking personally, I don't find them very collectable or useful. The SE/30 is much better on both counts, and they make lovely little compact print servers and file servers. I have an SE/30 that acts as a boot server for a LocalTalk IIgs network. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Morning-After Pill Decision Delayed ------------------------- From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sun Apr 15 10:57:13 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:57:13 +0200 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/07 5:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE > (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an > 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be > useful for a lot these days. SE's are plentiful and I wouldn't consider them collectible. They're also uglier than the Mac 128K/512K/Plus, while lacking the SE/30's "incredible power in a small package" appeal (SE/30's make great servers when packed with RAM and *BSD). Unless you "gotta catch 'em all" or you want a compact Mac to play around with and there are no other models to be found, skip it. ,xtG .tsooJ -- You can drink 'em pretty, But you can't drink 'em smart. -- Joost van de Griek From cc at corti-net.de Sun Apr 15 11:07:44 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:07:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Did they implement GNU compiler extensions like Intel have? > I doubt it, and I sure hope not. Rampant, undisciplined use of the GCC > "extensions" cause great gnashing of teeth for everyone not running GCC under > Linux on a PC. Well, the release notes mention this as system requirement: Compilers GCC 3.3 family on Sun Java Desktop System, Release 3 and SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 9 GCC 3.4 family on RedHat Enterprise Linux 4 (gcc compiler and g++ compiler only, g77 compiler is not supported) And the introduction says: Sun Studio 11 software provides a comprehensive, productive environment for developing applications using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) for the Linux operating system. So Sun Studio for Linux is just a crappy Java based IDE for GCC. Christian PS: I think this thread has now really become off topic... From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Apr 15 11:25:27 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 09:25:27 -0700 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems Message-ID: <4f16632174847f8209df9931b1c3f7e0@valleyimplants.com> Steven wrote >> SPARC is better, indeed for C++ or ANSI C on SunOS4 you will probably >> have to >> use gcc, since Sun's ANSI and C++ compilers are both hard to come by >> and >> nodelocked. > > Are you talking about the SUNWspro tools? Those are available for free > download from Sun. I think they call it Studio 11, or something like > that. > > Sun Studio 11 has fairly high system requirements (Solaris 8+ and an Ultra (listed as 450MHz U60 but probably will work with less). The older compilers (for SunOS4.1 through Solaris 7) are nodelocked (and go by many names: SPARCompilers, Forte, and WorkShop). From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 15 11:18:17 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:18:17 -0300 Subject: Linux question Message-ID: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: How do you concatenate two binary files into one? m From g-wright at att.net Sun Apr 15 12:19:09 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:19:09 +0000 Subject: Fortune 32:16 Message-ID: <041520071719.8176.46225E8C0005EE4000001FF021612436469B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "James A. Markevitch" : -------------- > I did much of the port of V7 UNIX for the Fortune Systems 32:16 computer > in 1981. > > It was a 6 MHz 68000 (not 68010!) designed specifically to run the UNIX > operating system with business applications on top of it. It could > run with 256KB of memory and two floppies (although it was really > a lot more useful with a 5MB hard drive). That was the sole operating > system intended for it. > > The 68000 did not have proper instruction restart after taking a trap, > so we had to do some tricks to support traps due to stack growth. > It had a real (and simple) MMU that supported text, data/bss, stack, > and u_page, all built using MSI TTL and maybe a PAL -- no LSI MMU. > > The box was still rock solid when I last had it powered on, probably about > 10 years ago. Mine is maxed out with 1MB of memory and four 68MB disk > drives (if I am recalling the max supported disk size correctly). > > James Markevitch Jim Do you recall anything about how they coded the machine ID to the software disks. I believe I have some add on programs that have not been installed. Most though have machine ID numbers written on the floppy disks. I have a couple of these machines here one has an bad Motherboard. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 15 12:40:16 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:40:16 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> References: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <46226380.8070100@shiresoft.com> M H Stein wrote: > A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: > > How do you concatenate two binary files into one? > cat. usage: cat file1 file2 > file3 For more details: man cat -- TTFN - Guy From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Apr 15 12:41:44 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> References: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, M H Stein wrote: > A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: > > How do you concatenate two binary files into one? cat infile1 infile2 > outfile -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Apr 15 12:42:25 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:42:25 +0100 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:39:56 PDT." <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200704151742.SAA25008@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chuck Guzis said: > One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE > (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an > 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be > useful for a lot these days. Probaby too common to be highly collectable. I use one as a console terminal on a headless Sparcstation 20, and when I came across my old Global Village Mac modem recently, I couldn't resist getting it on the internet...mail, news and ftp were no problem but I could only find one web browser that worked in System 6.0.8, - MacWWW (I do have 4Mb ram though). Makes quite a neat little terminal if nothing else. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From kelly at catcorner.org Sun Apr 15 13:41:55 2007 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:41:55 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 "Eight Meg Disk System" questions... Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E310FACB@MEOW.catcorner.org> > 1. The proper host interface board (this is the card that goes in the > Model II/16/etc. cardcage) The 8meg controller had large red heat sinks under the TTL chips. > > From the responses I've received I get the impression it's > possible to > substitute a hard drive controller for a 5mb TRS-80 hard > drive for #2 -- I don't think the newer card will work in the older units. please see: http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html for a very complete discussion. Kelly -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/762 - Release Date: 4/15/2007 4:22 PM From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 13:45:21 2007 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:45:21 -0400 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462272C1.2020104@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE > (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an > 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be > useful for a lot these days. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > If he doesn't mind floating the bill for shipping, I could use a new VT100 terminal :) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Sun Apr 15 13:46:46 2007 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on govliquidation... Message-ID: Compared to what DRMS used to make before govliquidation, all I can say is I'll bet they're getting a lot more now... My internal calculation goes something like this: plan on $100 per item for S&H by an external agent. I've had both good and bad experiences. Anything is possible with money. And you'll probably get something you don't want. If it weren't for the S&H, the deals would be phenomenal. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Apr 15 13:47:18 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:47:18 -0400 Subject: Shameless plug - Huge Document Library In-Reply-To: <200704151552.l3FFquu2007786@floodgap.com> References: <200704151552.l3FFquu2007786@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46227336.5050703@atarimuseum.com> Just posted a huge (well - quite a lot) document library of S-100 materials from Imsai, DRI, Cromemco, Processor Technologies, Ithaca Audio and much more... Almost all are originals. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190103563803 Curt From blakespot at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 11:40:31 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:40:31 -0400 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C77F00.68832060@mse-d03> <4621E4DC.8278.F86E332@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4b7d63a40704150940h268d4220g8d22fd30be8a588b@mail.gmail.com> They're not too uncommon. It is possible to add expansion cards to it, though, for an external display or the like. I'd not pay much for one, but it would be fun to mess around with. bp On 4/15/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE > (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an > 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be > useful for a lot these days. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 15 14:36:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:36:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704150615.CAA19544@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Apr 15, 7 02:12:27 am Message-ID: > The nostalgia value would come at least in large part from the printer, > the display, the keyboard feel...things no emulator can do. I know the feeling (!). To me, much of the interest in these old machines is being able to 'get inside the processor' with test equipment -- the 98x0 processor is 80 chips, all of them pretty simple (well, perhaps 100 chips if you count things like the M and T registers which are physcially on the memory interface boards). No emlulator can let me do that... The keyobard on the HP0910 uses the same ingenious balanced transformer system (the 9830, alas, is conventional switches), and the same printer was used in the 9810 and 9820. The displays are very different (the 9810 having 3 lines of 7 segment numberic displays to show the 3 RPN stack levels). The point being, of course, that the 9810 is a lot easier to find than the 9820 (although still hard)... > > I also suspect that the machine I used had a bunch of the optional > software ROMs, like the one that provides trig, which I would expect to > also be difficult to find. The ROMs _are_ considerably harder to find than the machines (and interfaces/peripherals are not common either). The maths ROM is probably the easiest to find, though, most people who bought one of these calculators wanted the trig functions, etc. Note that the ROMs for the 9810 and 9820 are different. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 15 13:54:11 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:54:11 -0300 Subject: Linux question Message-ID: <01C77F76.6B35B9A0@MSE_D03> Thanks for your quick replies, everyone who helped. I was trying to remotely help someone install Cromix in MSDOS format from a Linux box and didn't remember whether cat needs a switch for binary files as DOS does. Too many OSs addle the brain... m ------------------ >A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: >How do you concatenate two binary files into one? >m From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Apr 15 15:17:26 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:17:26 -0400 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46228856.3060503@atarimuseum.com> North American Van Lines is pretty decent on their pricing most of the time, they also are very good at handling open/loose items (I had an HP Designjet 2500CP shipped to me with just a shipping blanket over it and they treated it with kid gloves.) Craters & Freighters are totally rip-off artists, avoid! The other thing to do is ask around, seems a lot of people make runs up down the East Coast and Cross Country picking up/delivering Vintage Computer equipment and also look into the Classic Arcade Shippers as I've used them often to pick up stuff - doesn't matter if its a Pinball or a Honeywell - if they can bring it onto their trucks they'll do it for you, and generally a heck of a lot less then commercial freighters. Curt Mark KAHRS wrote: > Compared to what DRMS used to make before govliquidation, all I can say > is I'll bet they're getting a lot more now... > > My internal calculation goes something like this: plan on $100 per item > for S&H by an external agent. I've had both good and bad experiences. > Anything is possible with money. And you'll probably get something you > don't want. > > If it weren't for the S&H, the deals would be phenomenal. > > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 15 15:31:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:31:47 -0500 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <01C77F76.6B35B9A0@MSE_D03> References: <01C77F76.6B35B9A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <46228BB3.7070602@yahoo.co.uk> M H Stein wrote: > I was trying to remotely help someone install Cromix in MSDOS > format from a Linux box and didn't remember whether cat needs > a switch for binary files as DOS does. Funnily enough, I have a feeling that Linux cat *did* have a binary switch back in the very early days. Unfortunately I just grabbed the man pages from an early SLS distribution and there's no 'cat' entry at all so that I can check :( I'm sure it must have been a binary rather than a shell built-in, so I'm not sure why it didn't get a man page... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 15:49:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:49:22 -0700 Subject: Daisy wheel information? Message-ID: <46222D62.17323.10A22EF9@cclist.sydex.com> Is there somewhere a good summary of daisy wheel information? Not information for the printers, but rather for the wheels themselves. In particular, character sets and spoke ordering. It seems to me for what was once a very popular printing technology, information is very difficult to come by. C. Itoh, Brother, Smith-Corona, Xerox, Diablo, IBM, Wang, etc. Even the NEC "thimbles" would be welcome. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 15 15:50:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:50:56 -0600 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:46:46 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Mark KAHRS writes: > If it weren't for the S&H, the deals would be phenomenal. It depends on what you're looking at of course. Usually a good item is lumped in with crap you don't want. Ask a shipping agent if there's a possibility that they could just haul certain items to the local dump if you know you don't want them. The best is if you can find items that are local to you. That's what I've bought in the past, to avoid shipping hassles, but honestly its usually just the case that the stuff I want is in the middle of 18 pallets of stuff at a remote location. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Apr 15 16:40:44 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:40:44 -0700 Subject: Mac SE? Message-ID: <83a5f04288e12c3e03190ca949beecd9@valleyimplants.com> The SE is about the most useful desktop 68000 Macintosh. It supports ADB, some internal expansion options, internal HDD and 2 internal floppies (both with the right kind of HDD), external floppy port, ADB ... the list goes on. It's a bit noisier than the Plus, and not as fast as a Portable or PB100, but it has its plusses. Especially when you want to run old Mac software that has "issues" with newer (32-bit) equipment. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 16:49:17 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:49:17 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730704151449i73d39b1cr7c7bffd7555f618d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/15/07, Mark KAHRS wrote: > Compared to what DRMS used to make before govliquidation, all I can say > is I'll bet they're getting a lot more now... Great Lakes Naval Station is my nearest location. I attended one of their DRMO auctions way back before they started their internet operation. It was minimal hassle then, although as with any auction you did have to take the whole lot, junk and all. > My internal calculation goes something like this: plan on $100 per item > for S&H by an external agent. I've had both good and bad experiences. > Anything is possible with money. And you'll probably get something you > don't want. I'm figuring on sticking to local pickup (with the potential of driving within a state's range to other facilities) unless there's something incredibly cool that hasn't been claimed by others on this list :) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 15 17:04:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:04:51 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... References: Message-ID: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > The best is if you can find items that are local to you. That's what > I've bought in the past, to avoid shipping hassles, but honestly its > usually just the case that the stuff I want is in the middle of 18 > pallets of stuff at a remote location. Then Richard is one of the comparatively few who live right next to a govliquidation site. To the 99.999% of the rest of us.... buying from govliq means paying a fairly hefty amount of shipping, and you'll never know exactly what the shipping costs are really till after the auction. Not reliably anyways. I'm not knocking govliq... I like them and buy from them. But you just have to be in the position to say "I'm willing to pay just about whatever the shipping might be and agree to that beforehand without knowing the amount". Sometimes - and also depending on the item - I'm in that category. Sometimes I am not :) My experience is that govliq doesn't like to hassel around with people trying to save a few bucks on shipping. They are used to commercial buyers who aren't going to whine about every shipping dollar. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 17:05:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:05:24 -0700 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <83a5f04288e12c3e03190ca949beecd9@valleyimplants.com> References: <83a5f04288e12c3e03190ca949beecd9@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <46223F34.14288.10E7C940@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2007 at 14:40, Scott Quinn wrote: > The SE is about the most useful desktop 68000 Macintosh. It supports > ADB, some internal expansion options, internal HDD and 2 internal > floppies (both with the right kind of HDD), external floppy port, ADB > ... the list goes on. It's a bit noisier than the Plus, and not as fast > as a Portable or PB100, but it has its plusses. Especially when you > want to run old Mac software that has "issues" with newer (32-bit) > equipment. It's interesting to see old monitors (including some nice NEC Multisyncs) and ancient Macs going up on Freecycle with no takers. The big stopper for a lot of folks is the $15 disposal charge levied by the county should they decide that they don't want to keep it. I'm going to pass on the SE and wait for an SE 30. Cheers, Chuck From entity at nenevr.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 15 17:05:49 2007 From: entity at nenevr.demon.co.uk (Entity) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:05:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Message-ID: Hello, all. Does anyone on the list know if anyone in our extended community has ever come up with some sort of plug-compatible flash memory replacement for MFM drives? I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial offering at some point in the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive move to make. (Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on here many, many years ago and I've just started looking at it again; once I've got it up and running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent storage, but without jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO board is one option, but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on the topic! Cheers, Simon. From shumaker at att.net Sun Apr 15 17:54:16 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:54:16 -0700 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200704152254.l3FMsG12093165@keith.ezwind.net> One should also add that most of the "packer's" available through the govliq web site treat ALL materials coming from these auctions as scrap metal. Despite attempts to get "special handling" at several locations (with offers to PAY EXTRA for it), the packing that actually occurs is usually abysmal. s shumaker At 03:04 PM 4/15/2007, you wrote: >Richard wrote... >>The best is if you can find items that are local to you. That's what >>I've bought in the past, to avoid shipping hassles, but honestly its >>usually just the case that the stuff I want is in the middle of 18 >>pallets of stuff at a remote location. > >Then Richard is one of the comparatively few who live right next to >a govliquidation site. > >To the 99.999% of the rest of us.... buying from govliq means paying >a fairly hefty amount of shipping, and you'll never know exactly >what the shipping costs are really till after the auction. Not >reliably anyways. > >I'm not knocking govliq... I like them and buy from them. But you >just have to be in the position to say "I'm willing to pay just >about whatever the shipping might be and agree to that beforehand >without knowing the amount". Sometimes - and also depending on the >item - I'm in that category. Sometimes I am not :) My experience is >that govliq doesn't like to hassel around with people trying to save >a few bucks on shipping. They are used to commercial buyers who >aren't going to whine about every shipping dollar. > >Jay > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 15 19:10:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:10:08 -0500 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4622BEE0.4010401@yahoo.co.uk> Entity wrote: > Hello, all. > > Does anyone on the list know if anyone in our extended community has ever > come up with some sort of plug-compatible flash memory replacement for MFM > drives? Not to my knowledge, no. I'm surprised it's actually *that* big a task for someone who knows about designing circuits to run at the sorts of speeds needed, but as far as I'm aware the paths of need and ability haven't crossed yet :-) The theory is (in theory ;) pretty simple, and I would have thought that the tricky part of the practice is just getting it to run at the necessary speeds reliably. > I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial offering at some point in > the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive move to make. > (Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) Yeah, I'd found something a year or so ago. I don't remember exact numbers now, but it was well into the thousands (I don't recall if that were dollars or pounds, but either way the numbers were still scary) > I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on here many, many years > ago and I've just started looking at it again; once I've got it up and > running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent storage, but without > jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO board is one option, > but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. I'm not at all familiar with that board - but surely if you're willing to put a non-stock emulated hard drive in the machine, that's no different to putting a non-original S100 board into the machine which achieves the same storage aims? Either strike me as trivially reversible should someone ever want to do so, and neither approach would be "stock". cheers Jules From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 15 19:19:06 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oddly enough, I've been working on a design for an MFM drive replacement on and off for a while now. I don't believe that flash memory is the way to go though with cheap and plentiful IDE drives available. I've seen that commercial offering somewhere in Europe - looks expensive. -Dave --- Entity wrote: > > Hello, all. > > Does anyone on the list know if anyone in our > extended community has ever > come up with some sort of plug-compatible flash > memory replacement for MFM > drives? > > I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial > offering at some point in > the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive > move to make. > (Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) > > I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on > here many, many years > ago and I've just started looking at it again; once > I've got it up and > running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent > storage, but without > jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO > board is one option, > but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. > > Anyway, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on > the topic! > > Cheers, > > Simon. > > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 15 17:37:25 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:37:25 +0100 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 References: Message-ID: <006401c77fbd$7a4f91d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I know of a 260ST, not a 540. There was also talk of a 130ST. Ah, that explains a few things - I really should go take a look at a few Atari sites, it's been a while. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 15 18:13:50 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:13:50 +0100 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 References: Message-ID: <006601c77fbd$7ac202b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > 1040ST lacked a floppy drive. 520STF and 1040STF had floppy drives >(hence the 'F'). Here in the UK we got the "520STM" (no floppy, internal RF modulator) and "1040STF" initially, and later the "520STFM"; I don't recall if there was a "1040STFM". TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 15 18:08:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:08:24 +0100 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 References: Message-ID: <006501c77fbd$7a736d80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Will a CGA monitor be able to handle 320x200 lo-res? I wonder if >people have tried hooking them up to Commodore 1902s or 1084s. I used to use my 520STM+ (a 520STM factory upgraded to 1MB RAM, a UK only thing I believe) on a Philips CM8833 monitor, it would handle both low and medium res without a problem. I know STs can also drive CBM 1701s without a problem. However, unless the monitor output of the STacy is different to the normal ST, it won't drive a CGA monitor. CGA monitors expect TTL RGBI, whereas the ST outputs analogue RGB (albeit at TTL levels, hence the reason for having to install dropper resistors in the RGB lines when driving a normal, non-Atari colour monitor). TTFN - Pete. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 20:27:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:27:08 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 4/15/07, Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... > > The best is if you can find items that are local to you... > > Then Richard is one of the comparatively few who live right next to a > govliquidation site. I was thinking about those RL02s in Columbus - they are minutes from my place. -ethan From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 15 20:43:19 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:43:19 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) In-Reply-To: <0JGE00735RLLZN42@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGE00735RLLZN42@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4622D4B7.5070107@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >Sounds nice. I have a few BA-11VA (four dual width slots) >and it's a challange to put enough boards to make a bootable >viable sytem in that. An 11/23, 256k ram, DLV11J and a Rom >card was full house and for storage the only choice was TU58 >or Tu58 emulation (requires bukly balky PC). > Jerome Fine replies: For this example (I assume this is an M8186), there were dual MFM and ESDI controllers which have boot ROMs for the hard drive (non-DEC of course). I still use my dual ESDI controller. I no longer have the MFM controller, but that was all the VT103 originally had which was essential to run and boot an operating system such as RT-11. I don't know if any of those dual MFM controllers are still available, but when they were initially released, they cost more than a SCSI Qbus host adapter. As a consequence, a TU-58 would certainly have been a low cost (and very slow) alternative. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 15 20:44:05 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:44:05 -0400 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <461E6787.8010602@garlic.com> References: <0JGA00BPT66PDW46@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <461D9972.4010502@compsys.to> <461E6787.8010602@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4622D4E5.1040703@compsys.to> >jd wrote: >I am finding the most recent drives are much hotter than older ones. >I have a bunch of 3.5's under 10Gb that run way cooler than the newer, >10Gb++ lot. >Three of my seven newest 30+Gb disks have already fried and died and >one can't write anymore. >I've had to liquid cool the survivors because airflow just won't work >anymore without very cold air. > Jerome Fine replies: I purchased 3 * 40 GB ATA 100 3.5" Maxtor drives in 2002. One died within a year and was replaced. The other 2 died early this year followed almost immediately by the replacement. I now have 3 * 160 GB drives since they no longer seem to make a 40 GB drive that is any less expensive. But, even though they don't seem to run even warm (I can touch them and they don't seem any warmer than my hand), PC drives seem to fail after about 5,000 hours of use. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 20:45:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:45:14 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> Anyone have any idea what this equipment is? http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1181298&convertTo=USD I'm not sure if "SYSTEMS MANAGEMENT AMERICAN CORPORATION" is the manufacturer or just an integrator. Of course the pic is too blurry to read most of the model #s. Looks like a pair of 8" floppies and maybe a fixed disk? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Apr 15 20:45:32 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:45:32 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Comley may have mentioned these words: >Oddly enough, I've been working on a design for an MFM >drive replacement on and off for a while now. I don't >believe that flash memory is the way to go though with >cheap and plentiful IDE drives available. Ah, but the beauty of this is, if you make it IDE compatible, you already *have* flash compatibility - just slap a CompactFlash module of your preferred size into a CF->IDE adapter, and Bob's your uncle! I doubt there were MFM drives (read: ST506) available that hit the gigglebyte size, but 1G CF drives are not only plentiful (I have two on my desk right now, for my Nikon D70) but now they're quite inexpensive. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 20:47:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:47:44 -0400 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> References: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4622D5C0.3070204@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: > > How do you concatenate two binary files into one? cat file1 file2 > concatenatedfile Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 20:49:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:49:34 -0400 Subject: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Has anyone here successfully bid on and received anything from > govliquidation.com? Their site has every bit the ease-of-use I'd > expect from a government facility. The purchase and shipping process > looks equally intimidating. I purchased a number of IBM 2316 disk packs mentioned on the list a couple of months back. I am VERY HAPPY I drove to Norfolk to pick them up. Those lazy assholes driving the forklifts could not be bothered to actually LIFT the pallets off the floor when moving them - they just pushed them along the uneven warehouse floors. I was seen running across the warehouse when I saw one of the priceless packs bouncing and skittering almost off the pallet. While this was happening, one of the shippers had no problems about putting one loaded pallet on top of another and shrinkwrapping it, all to a delightful sound of crushing metal and cracking plastic. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 21:01:56 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:01:56 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> Here's another....crusty old ditto machine, a sink, smelly old tent...whoa what's that terminal and rack?? http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1191518&convertTo=USD From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 21:22:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:22:33 -0500 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> References: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Ah, but the beauty of this is, if you make it IDE compatible, you already > *have* flash compatibility - just slap a CompactFlash module of your > preferred size into a CF->IDE adapter, and Bob's your uncle! Since desktop drives are moving to SATA, compatibility with PATA (and thus easily attached Compact Flash drives) isn't the obvious goal is once was. Yes, there will be large amounts of PATA drives for a number of years, but I can see that in a small number of years, they just won't bother to make them anymore, whereas, Compact Flash is Compact Flash - they may stop making that, too, but they aren't as mechanically fragile, so they may be easier to track down 10+ years in the future. > I doubt there were MFM drives (read: ST506) available that hit the > gigglebyte size There's an understatement - with a practical maximum number of platters and heads and tracks and sectors with the techniques of the times, no... they never got close to 1GB. They came out at 5MB (ST506) and peaked under 200MB. ESDI was the interface of choice for a short time if you wanted "large" drives on the desktop, then IDE (PATA) swept in and here it is, sweeping back out like the tide. As an aside, I happen to have a pair of 600MB ESDI drives on an SDI controller on my VAX8200, so ESDI isn't just for large PCs, but they were seen there. > but 1G CF drives are not only plentiful (I have two on my > desk right now, for my Nikon D70) but now they're quite inexpensive. The Micro Center has house-branded 1GB and 2GB CF cards for a few bucks apiece as impulse buys in bins by the cash registers... right where you'd expect to see gum and candy - if that isn't a sign of how cheap they've become, what is? The real issue, though, one that the OP didn't address directly, is that if you are making a generic MFM drive emulator, you have no way to know how much writing is going to take place, one task that IDE drives have over Flash... If your target host doesn't swap, and doesn't, say, write a magic sector every time you boot, or update access times in the filesystem everytime you read a file, you could probably get away with a Flash drive. If your target machine/OS allows you to boot write-protected media, Flash could be a fine choice. If, however, your OS requires a writeable drive and demands swap space or does lots of filesystems writes outside of human control, Flash might not be a wise choice, cheap or not. -ethan From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Apr 15 21:26:16 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:26:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TC11/TU56 update Message-ID: <25171305.1176690377076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Warning: this is a long post. Today I racked my TU56 and TC11. I connected the TC11 to the TU56 with the two interface cables. I hooked up an AC power cord to the TU56. After turning on my H720 power supply and checking the voltages, I hooked up the +5, -15, and ground wires from the H720 power supply to the spade connectors on the TU56 and the TC11. I then opened up my 11/40, removed my M9312 bootstrap terminator from the last unibus slot (on my RK11-D), moved the M9312 to the unibus-out slot on the TC11, and ran a unibus cable from the slot on the RK11D (where the M9312 previously was located) to the unibus in slot on the TC11. I then powered everything up (11/40, RL02, RK05, TU56, VT100). This configuration has two RL02 drives, an RK05, and the newly added TU56. I have the appropriate bootstrap ROMs in the M9312. IIRC, the RK05 ROM also contains the dectape bootstrap code. I put a "never-used" DecTape on both drives, wrapped it around the take up reel 4 or 5 times, set the TU56 in local mode and pressed the forward switch to wind the tape a little more. I then loaded the address of the M9312 and pressed the start button. The @ prompt appeared on the console. This showed that the unibus signals and the M9312 are working in the TC11. I then decided to boot RT11 from the RK05 drive. It booted fine. The system seemed to be working normally and adding the TU56/TC11 did not adversely affect anything. Then I decided to test out the DecTape drive to see if it would respond to RT11 commands. Although there was nothing on the Dectapes, I did a DIR DT0:. The drive 0 reel began spinning and spun back to the beginning and the tape came off the take up reel and kept spinning. I flipped the unit 0 toggle switch from the REMOTE position to the OFF position, then wrapped the dectape back on the reel a few turns, set the switch to LOCAL, and wound it using unit 0's forward/reverse switch. I did the same thing with unit 1 (DIR DT1:). Exact same results. The tape winds and goes off the reel. If I attempt to do an INIT DK0: or INIT DK1:, the tapes run in forward motion until they are totally wound on the take up reels and then keep spinning. When it runs off the reel and I turn the DT0 or DT1 unit's REMOTE/LOCAL switch to the OFF position, RT11 returns an error message to the VT100 console. If I attempt to boot off a Dectape (entering DT, DT0, or DT1 at the M9312 @ prompt), the drives spin in forward direction until they wind the tape all the way onto the take up reel and then keep spinning. The indicator lights on the right side of the TC11 panel seem to be working fine, and when the tapes wind off the reel and I flip the REMOTE/LOCAL switch to OFF, the error light with come on. So it seems that the TC11 and TU56 are communicating with the 11/40 system, and the system can send commands to either dectape unit 0 or unit 1, and the TU56/TC11 will respond. My question now is: If I want to initialize a blank, never-used Dectape so I can use it under RT11, am I doing the right thing by typing INIT DT0: or INIT DT1: ? How is the dectape unit supposed to respond when I issue an INIT DT0: command? I would assume that it should not wind the tape until it winds it all the way off the reel. Where do I go from here? It seems that I'm mighty close to LIFT-OFF!!! I'll post some pics of the racked TU56/TC11 on my web site soon. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 15 21:27:10 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:27:10 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4622DEFE.50803@pacbell.net> Jason T wrote: > Anyone have any idea what this equipment is? > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1181298&convertTo=USD > > I'm not sure if "SYSTEMS MANAGEMENT AMERICAN CORPORATION" is the > manufacturer or just an integrator. Of course the pic is too blurry > to read most of the model #s. Looks like a pair of 8" floppies and > maybe a fixed disk? > My best guess on the label: DISK MEMORY UNIT something 100 TO 127 V AC 50 TO 60 HZ SERIAL 007-A105 A UNIT OF DATA PROCESSING something NAVAL SEA SYSTEMS COMMAND SYSTEMS MEASUREMENT AMERICAN CORPORATION NORFOLK, VA CONTRACT N00024-82-C-6101 From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 15 21:36:09 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <59044.6570.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: If, however, your OS requires a writeable > drive and demands > swap space or does lots of filesystems writes > outside of human > control, Flash might not be a wise choice, cheap or > not. Exactly. My intended uses are primarily VAX/VMS-based. -Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 21:41:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:41:22 -0500 Subject: TC11/TU56 update In-Reply-To: <25171305.1176690377076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25171305.1176690377076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/15/07, Ashley Carder wrote: > I put a "never-used" DecTape on both drives... . . . > Then I decided to test out the DecTape drive to see if it would respond to RT11 commands. Although there was nothing on the Dectapes, I did a DIR DT0:. The drive 0 reel began spinning and spun back to the beginning and the tape came off the take up reel and kept spinning.... > My question now is: > > If I want to initialize a blank, never-used Dectape so I can use it under RT11, am I doing the right thing by typing INIT DT0: or INIT DT1: ? I think you are missing a step. I have personally never had the opportunity to work with a "never-used" DECtape, but I know that on the PDP-8, you have to write low-level timing tracks to the tape before OS/8 can write filesystem info to it. Somewhere, on one of my DECtapes, is a PDP-8 utility that knows how to write PDP-8-friendly timing tracks to a blank/bulk-erased tape. Presumably, there's something similar for the PDP-11 (and PDP-10, for that matter). I would have no idea what it's called, but perhaps there's something with XXDP that knows how to do it. > How is the dectape unit supposed to respond when I issue an INIT DT0: command? I would assume that it should not wind the tape until it winds it all the way off the reel. I should think it would write a filesystem to the first few blocks on the tape and stop. It's probably spinning off the end of the reel because it's not finding the timing patterns associated with the start of a DECtape. Unlike 9-track magtape, there are no BOT and EOT sensors - it's all about the timing tracks. Something to look for, BTW, is the docs for whatever timing-track/low-level formatter you track down. Dimly, ISTR some specific instructions for how much tape to wind on the takeup reel, both to allow plenty of leader to be trimmed off as the tape wears, but also to allow enough off of the other end so as not to run off the end of the reel when using the full capacity of the medium. It's nothing horribly precise, but there is a safe range of recommended numbers of turns for optimal use. -ethan From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Apr 15 13:42:00 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:42:00 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> References: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <462271F8.30204@garlic.com> M H Stein wrote: > A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: > > How do you concatenate two binary files into one? > > m > > man cat && info cat (and `cat file1 file2 > file3` usually works.) -- jd "We are upping our standards ... so up yours." -- Pat Paulsen for President, 1988. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Apr 15 22:03:56 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:03:56 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070415224402.03b807a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >On 4/15/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>Ah, but the beauty of this is, if you make it IDE compatible, you already >>*have* flash compatibility - just slap a CompactFlash module of your >>preferred size into a CF->IDE adapter, and Bob's your uncle! > >Since desktop drives are moving to SATA, compatibility with PATA (and >thus easily attached Compact Flash drives) isn't the obvious goal is >once was. Yes, there will be large amounts of PATA drives for a >number of years, but I can see that in a small number of years, they >just won't bother to make them anymore, whereas, Compact Flash is >Compact Flash - they may stop making that, too, but they aren't as >mechanically fragile, so they may be easier to track down 10+ years in >the future. Ah, but a decade ago, "pundits" said the floppy was past it's prime... I'll admit that I actually have a computer that doesn't have one installed and I don't really miss it (because I do have access to a USB floppy drive I use on occasion) and my wife's machine doesn't have one either, but I recently found the last floppy I made for her... a 720K DSDD ditty for MS-DOS which still a) was readable and for the "too much info" crowd b) still had an "e-loveletter" that I wrote to her on it before we were married... the disk is over 15 years old; so she never really used 'em much to begin with. PATA vs. SATA is merely an argument of the little board they stick on the hardware, which both right now are being made in such quantity that they're equal in price. Until there's no call for PATA upgrades (which might take at least 1/2 decade, judging from the floppy's history) there will still be SATA->PATA converters (which exist already in both directions) and so it's just another seamless emulation layer to CF that really doesn't matter. Maybe in 15 years we should start worrying, but by then the petabyte CF cards will be available for your gigapixel DSLR... ;-) >>but 1G CF drives are not only plentiful (I have two on my >>desk right now, for my Nikon D70) but now they're quite inexpensive. > >The Micro Center has house-branded 1GB and 2GB CF cards for a few >bucks apiece as impulse buys in bins by the cash registers... right >where you'd expect to see gum and candy - if that isn't a sign of how >cheap they've become, what is? Must be nice to live in a populous area, even if it is only half-the-time... ;-) How many of those could I get for $20 plus shipping? I could use (at least) a couple for my SuperIDE interface for my CoCo that I'm repacking in a Tandy 1000 RLX case. No, the guts didn't go to waste... >The real issue, though, one that the OP didn't address directly, is >that if you are making a generic MFM drive emulator, you have no way >to know how much writing is going to take place, one task that IDE >drives have over Flash... If your target host doesn't swap, and >doesn't, say, write a magic sector every time you boot, or update >access times in the filesystem everytime you read a file, you could >probably get away with a Flash drive. If your target machine/OS >allows you to boot write-protected media, Flash could be a fine >choice. If, however, your OS requires a writeable drive and demands >swap space or does lots of filesystems writes outside of human >control, Flash might not be a wise choice, cheap or not. Most of the non-sucky CF implementations (read: Sandisk/Lexar) have built-in sector-writing-balancing (for lack of a useful term -- or a still-functional pair of connected neurons ;-) - so a sufficiently large CF card _could_ last a very long time even as swap on a classic system (depending on a boatload of factors, and your definition of "very long" of course... ;-) and IIRC, newer flash has an order of magnitude more write cycles than the old stuff, but that just might be the beer talkin'. I still need the AT keyboard interface for my CoCo repack - see an upcoming wholly OT post that hopefully Jay won't kick my butt over on how I'm gonna pay for that.... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 22:05:57 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:05:57 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/07, David Comley wrote: > > Oddly enough, I've been working on a design for an MFM > drive replacement on and off for a while now. I don't Monthes ago I thought it might be my next project -- I even made an sub-directory "MFM_EMULATION" in my PROJECT directory. I am still in the "collecting relavent documents" stage. I have no time for it as I am trying to boot VMS CD on the MSCP SCSI card. Yestoday I booted to this message: "OpenVMS VAX Version X5ZX-C3L Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0". Not a bad sign. vax, 9000 believe that flash memory is the way to go though with > cheap and plentiful IDE drives available. > > I've seen that commercial offering somewhere in Europe > - looks expensive. > > -Dave > --- Entity wrote: > > > > > Hello, all. > > > > Does anyone on the list know if anyone in our > > extended community has ever > > come up with some sort of plug-compatible flash > > memory replacement for MFM > > drives? > > > > I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial > > offering at some point in > > the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive > > move to make. > > (Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) > > > > I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on > > here many, many years > > ago and I've just started looking at it again; once > > I've got it up and > > running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent > > storage, but without > > jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO > > board is one option, > > but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. > > > > Anyway, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on > > the topic! > > > > Cheers, > > > > Simon. > > > > > > From brettdurham at mybluelight.com Sun Apr 15 23:14:26 2007 From: brettdurham at mybluelight.com (brettdurham at mybluelight.com) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:14:26 GMT Subject: Epson PC286UX Message-ID: <20070415.211514.18186.1600333@webmail36.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 23:54:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:54:09 -0700 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <59044.6570.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: , <59044.6570.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46229F01.26114.125DFE9C@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2007 at 19:36, David Comley wrote: > Exactly. My intended uses are primarily VAX/VMS-based. Since, as in floppies, you're dealing with raw (unseparated ) data at 5MHz or thereabouts, recording bit transitions is out of the question. So you'd need some circuitry to both interpret and to synthesize not only bits but the various address headers and CRCs. IIRC, there wasn't a huge amount of interchangeability between the various controller vendors, so you'd need several (selectable) routines to handle that. Then there's the matter of RLL and ARLL-- and synthesizing CRC or ECC results. It looks pretty daunting to me at first blush, but maybe it's doable inexpensively. Personally, if I had a CP'/M machine, I'd simply work up an adapter to interface directly to a Flash card and modify the driver software. Just thinking aloud... Cheers, Chuck From wayne.smith at charter.net Mon Apr 16 00:06:46 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:06:46 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <200704160200.l3G1xjgj039918@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:18:17 -0300 > From: M H Stein > Subject: Linux question > To: "'m100 at list.30below.com'" > Cc: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > Message-ID: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0 at mse-d03> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: > > How do you concatenate two binary files into one? > > m > Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help - and that's certainly nice. But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested silence. -W From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 16 01:23:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:23:17 -0600 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Wayne Smith wrote: > Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help - and > that's certainly nice. Well I have my revenge ... *Opps* how do you split the binary file back again. > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > silence. I suspect more people have 'cat' running on some machines than active 8 bit systems today. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 01:27:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:27:48 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> References: <200704160200.l3G1xjgj039918@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <4622B4F4.22327.12B3B9FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2007 at 22:06, Wayne Smith wrote: > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > silence. Going back and reviewing my record of his question, he specifically asked if anyone has had any experience with the KayPLUS or Advent Turbo ROMs. I would assume that the answer that might be inferred would be "no". Given that the standard ROM works with his hard drive in his 10, I don't know what anyone not having direct experience with the aforementioned products *could* say. Some questions get dead silence. I've asked a few of those. I don't let it upset me. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 15 23:07:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:07:35 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Message-ID: <0JGK00MTLORSL9L0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:22:33 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/15/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Ah, but the beauty of this is, if you make it IDE compatible, you already >> *have* flash compatibility - just slap a CompactFlash module of your >> preferred size into a CF->IDE adapter, and Bob's your uncle! > >Since desktop drives are moving to SATA, compatibility with PATA (and >thus easily attached Compact Flash drives) isn't the obvious goal is >once was. Yes, there will be large amounts of PATA drives for a >number of years, but I can see that in a small number of years, they >just won't bother to make them anymore, whereas, Compact Flash is >Compact Flash - they may stop making that, too, but they aren't as >mechanically fragile, so they may be easier to track down 10+ years in >the future. > > >> I doubt there were MFM drives (read: ST506) available that hit the >> gigglebyte size > >There's an understatement - with a practical maximum number of >platters and heads and tracks and sectors with the techniques of the >times, no... they never got close to 1GB. They came out at 5MB >(ST506) and peaked under 200MB. ESDI was the interface of choice for >a short time if you wanted "large" drives on the desktop, then IDE >(PATA) swept in and here it is, sweeping back out like the tide. As >an aside, I happen to have a pair of 600MB ESDI drives on an SDI >controller on my VAX8200, so ESDI isn't just for large PCs, but they >were seen there. What made the jump possible was RLL. MFM drives could do RLL and those Xt2190 (153mb) drives now exceeded 200mb and climbing. IDE was simple pushing the RLL controller onto the literal back of the drive making the path clear for yet higher data rates to the platter. Cobalt replaced ferrite for the surface media, data rates went up. Better heads, amps and the like made even higher data rates possible so that 1Gb and higher was possible. By then GCR and other techniques were being applied to the problem of getting more into less. MFM was a starting point and had limited use because it didn't pack the maximum number of bits possible. Allison From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Apr 16 02:02:53 2007 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:02:53 +0200 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070416070253.GA31594@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2007-04-16 00:23:17 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Wayne Smith wrote: > >Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help - and > >that's certainly nice. > > Well I have my revenge ... *Opps* how do you split the binary file > back again. With `split'? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty the second : decreases." (Thomas Jefferson) From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 16 02:06:06 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:06:06 -0700 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0c4801c77ff5$b4416c50$0701a8c0@liberator> There were several MFm replacement devices years ago, IIRC they were battery backed SRAM -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Comley Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Oddly enough, I've been working on a design for an MFM drive replacement on and off for a while now. I don't believe that flash memory is the way to go though with cheap and plentiful IDE drives available. I've seen that commercial offering somewhere in Europe - looks expensive. -Dave --- Entity wrote: > > Hello, all. > > Does anyone on the list know if anyone in our > extended community has ever > come up with some sort of plug-compatible flash > memory replacement for MFM > drives? > > I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial > offering at some point in > the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive > move to make. > (Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) > > I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on > here many, many years > ago and I've just started looking at it again; once > I've got it up and > running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent > storage, but without > jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO > board is one option, > but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. > > Anyway, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on > the topic! > > Cheers, > > Simon. > > From entity at nenevr.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 02:17:01 2007 From: entity at nenevr.demon.co.uk (Simon Coombs) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:17:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <4622BEE0.4010401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial offering at some point in > > the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive move to make. > > (Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) > > Yeah, I'd found something a year or so ago. I don't remember exact numbers > now, but it was well into the thousands (I don't recall if that were dollars > or pounds, but either way the numbers were still scary) I think I've found what I'd been thinking of - Wilson Labs do an MFM->SCSI bridge, and for some reason I'd convinced myself that they did a flash equivalent. > > I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on here many, many years > > ago and I've just started looking at it again; once I've got it up and > > running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent storage, but without > > jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO board is one option, > > but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. > > I'm not at all familiar with that board - but surely if you're willing to put > a non-stock emulated hard drive in the machine, that's no different to putting > a non-original S100 board into the machine which achieves the same storage > aims? Either strike me as trivially reversible should someone ever want to do > so, and neither approach would be "stock". I was referring to the IMSAI Super I/O board; $350 seems to buy you a whole lot of connectivity to newer devices. I'm thinking about the software as well as the hardware, though - if such an emulated device were available, it'd probably be preferable to teaching a number of operating systems how to speak to new hardware. Plus I've got a couple of non-S100 machines where the MFM drive has proven to be the achilles heel as well - it'd be useful in a number of places. Cheers, Simon. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 16 01:23:54 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:23:54 -0300 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Message-ID: <01C77FD6.CE92BB00@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:05:49 +0100 (BST) From: Entity Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) >I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on here many, many years >ago and I've just started looking at it again; once I've got it up and >running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent storage, but without >jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO board is one option, >but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. ------------- If you mean Howard Harte's SuperIO board, apparently he's no longer making or supporting it; too bad. mike From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 16 02:32:01 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:32:01 +0100 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46232671.2030706@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/04/2007 07:23, woodelf wrote: > Wayne Smith wrote: > >> Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help - and >> that's certainly nice. > > Well I have my revenge ... *Opps* how do you split the binary file > back again. bsplit (if it's binary, else split) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wizard at voyager.net Mon Apr 16 04:16:40 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:16:40 -0400 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> Message-ID: <1176715001.12150.132.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 09:58 -0500, John Foust wrote: > See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s > Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently > reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was faster > than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that mousing was > faster than keyboarding. Sorry, John, that's simply not true. Casual observation will show that; there's no need for a $50M study to determine it. In point of fact, job sites where typing output needs to be maximized tend to use old copies of WordStar for their text editing, as ALL commands in WS can be accomplished by the standard typewriter keys, plus the control key. People can then type without breaking their concentration by either trying to find the correct shift state (Shift, Control, and Alt) function key, or taking hands off the keyboard to reach for the mouse, move the pointer up to the proper pull-down menu, open it, find the correct selection, and select it. I note that this is a classic example of buying results. "Hey, we have 50 Million, and we want to prove that a mouse system is faster than a keyboard system. Who wants to help?" I'm sure this study, if published at all, was published in The Journal of Irreproducible Results. What are the methods? I would be willing to bet that it has not been peer-reviewed. The phrases "media buy," "bollocks" and "Public Relations" come to mind immediately. Scientists and researchers have recently shown themselves to be whores for their funding. There is no clearer proof of this than the relatively small number of scientists protesting the furor over the imaginary link between planetary temperature cycles and alleged human effects. While a simple logical case can be made for a human cause of the current warming trend, even a cursory examination of the data already collected indicates STRONG support for the idea that humans play no, or close to no, role in the current warming. Scientists have discovered that panic induces increased funding, so, strangely enough, all of their recent releases are panic-inducing. Those who don't "play along" lose their funding. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Apr 16 04:28:45 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:28:45 +0200 Subject: Atari ST/STacy was Re: MCM66128L20 Message-ID: Ensor wrote: > > 1040ST lacked a floppy drive. 520STF and 1040STF had floppy drives > >(hence the 'F'). > > Here in the UK we got the "520STM" (no floppy, internal RF modulator) and > "1040STF" initially, and later the "520STFM"; I don't recall if there was a > "1040STFM". There was. I have one. You are right, as the 'F' indicates the internal floppy drive, the 'M' indicates the modulator. I was wrong, earlier, though; there was no floppy-less 1040ST. The 1M ST was called the 520ST+. This was probably done to make things interesting. ,xtG tsooJ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 16 05:41:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:41:06 -0300 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) References: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com><5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <033b01c78014$0d1b1b50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > choice. If, however, your OS requires a writeable drive and demands > swap space or does lots of filesystems writes outside of human > control, Flash might not be a wise choice, cheap or not. Ethan, remember that in CFs, if you write a sector more times than allowed and the sector go bad, it is automatically replaced for a good sector. In effect, if hundreds of sectors go bad you'll not have bad sectors on the CF, but the total capacity will get smaller. CFs has automatic remapping/hiding of all bad sectors. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 16 05:47:50 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:47:50 -0300 Subject: More on govliquidation... References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <035a01c78014$c54197e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Here's another....crusty old ditto machine, a sink, smelly old > tent...whoa what's that terminal and rack?? An Imagesetter/composer. This is used to make films for the offset printing... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 16 06:56:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:56:56 -0500 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <46229F01.26114.125DFE9C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <59044.6570.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46229F01.26114.125DFE9C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46236488.2040100@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Apr 2007 at 19:36, David Comley wrote: > >> Exactly. My intended uses are primarily VAX/VMS-based. > > Since, as in floppies, you're dealing with raw (unseparated ) data at > 5MHz or thereabouts, recording bit transitions is out of the > question. So you'd need some circuitry to both interpret and to > synthesize not only bits but the various address headers and CRCs. > IIRC, there wasn't a huge amount of interchangeability between the > various controller vendors, so you'd need several (selectable) > routines to handle that. Then there's the matter of RLL and ARLL-- > and synthesizing CRC or ECC results. I'm not sure - remember the task is to emulate a drive, not a controller. Isn't an MFM ST506/412 drive just a bucket of rotating bits and a track stepper? Or does the index pulse function more like that of a hard-sectored floppy - i.e. the number of sectors per track is fixed in hardware, and there's an index pulse at the start of each sector? Even if that is the case, I wouldn't have thought it makes much difference - it just means that buffer memory and permanent storage is organised a little differently. The device is still like a big floppy, just with more heads and the need to record faster timings between bit transitions: the principle's the same, it just needs someone with experience of working with fast logic to design the board layout and code for whatever CPU / DSP is used. cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 07:44:49 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:44:49 -0500 Subject: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <1176715001.12150.132.camel@linux.site> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070412095647.0693e4b0@mail> <1176715001.12150.132.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070416072806.06b03a38@mail> At 04:16 AM 4/16/2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: >On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 09:58 -0500, John Foust wrote: >> See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s > > Sorry, John, that's simply not true. Casual observation will show >that; there's no need for a $50M study to determine it. The study of computer-human interaction is an old one; I'm not adept in its studies and research. Instead of relying on my gut as a standard of reference, I quoted the one reference to a study that I knew offhand. I suggest sigchi.org as a starting point if we want to examine the field to find other relevant studies. A very casual search there found another study abstract: Graphical versus Character-Based Word Processors: An Analysis of User Performance It's All about Choice / d'Ydewalle, Gery / Leemans, Jurgen / Van Rensbergen, Johan Behaviour and Information Technology 1995 v.14 n.4 p.208-214 Abstract: The study investigates how experienced computer users take advantage of the availability of graphic user interfaces in a word processing task. Performance time and actions were compared in three groups of subjects working respectively with WordPerfect 5.1, WordPerfect for Windows, or WordPerfect V2.00 for the Macintosh. The three groups did not differ in efficiency: they performed the word processing task at the same speed. Very few WordPerfect 5.1 users worked with the pull-down menus; the great majority preferred using the function key shortcuts. No significant difference in menu use was noted between the two graphical user interface word processors (Windows and Macintosh). Windows users did not apply shortcuts to move text, but used menus or the button bar instead. There was no difference in the use of the mouse between the Windows and Macintosh groups. While better task satisfaction is often reported with the availability of graphical user interfaces, our findings are in agreement with other studies suggesting that experienced users don't perform more efficiently with such a computer environment. which might also point out that it's reasonable that we might expect expert users to behave differently than newbies, and that there are other dimensions we might want to consider such as "task satisfaction". >While a simple logical case can be made for a human cause of >the current warming trend, even a cursory examination of the data >already collected indicates STRONG support for the idea that humans play >no, or close to no, role in the current warming. Scientists have >discovered that panic induces increased funding, so, strangely enough, >all of their recent releases are panic-inducing. Those who don't "play >along" lose their funding. And now you're trolling and have wandering off topic. - John From davis at saw.net Mon Apr 16 03:23:47 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:23:47 -0700 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46233293.7080507@saw.net> Jason T wrote: > Here's another....crusty old ditto machine, a sink, smelly old > tent...whoa what's that terminal and rack?? > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1191518&convertTo=USD > > Not quite. The "tent" is a portable equipment shack, with cooling, it weighs about 3000+ Lbs. A company I worked for in a previous life used one as a aircraft landing system base station The printing press look like trash. I don't know what the rack system is. Though, If it's been in the same (assumed) emvironment at the press, It's probably corroded junk. Jim Davis. That system has a lot of boat anchor attached to it. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 16 07:03:30 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:03:30 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Message-ID: <0JGL0029CASVN7R2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) > From: Entity > Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:05:49 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Hello, all. > >Does anyone on the list know if anyone in our extended community has ever >come up with some sort of plug-compatible flash memory replacement for MFM >drives? No. Flash has a write limit before failure. that makes it useless for swap/page space. Also the number of CHS combinations of old disks were numerous. >I've a vague idea that I've seen a commercial offering at some point in >the past, but obviously that'd be a fairly expensive move to make. >(Fairly? Oh, OK. Very.) > >I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on here many, many years >ago and I've just started looking at it again; once I've got it up and >running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent storage, but without >jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO board is one option, >but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. CF to s100 takes maybe 10 peices of generic ttl, It would require a new (or argumented) bios for CP/M and NSdos never supported a hard disk (or similar) without a rewrite (except on the Advantage). I've done both IDE and CF for 8085 and z80 systems as a way to get bulk storage for them. It's easy to do in hardware and a software project as there is no direct support off the shelf (one of hardware). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 16 07:11:39 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:11:39 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) Message-ID: <0JGL00KXWB6GN0E1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:43:19 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >>Sounds nice. I have a few BA-11VA (four dual width slots) >>and it's a challange to put enough boards to make a bootable >>viable sytem in that. An 11/23, 256k ram, DLV11J and a Rom >>card was full house and for storage the only choice was TU58 >>or Tu58 emulation (requires bukly balky PC). >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >For this example (I assume this is an M8186), there >were dual MFM and ESDI controllers which have boot >ROMs for the hard drive (non-DEC of course). I still >use my dual ESDI controller. I no longer have the >MFM controller, but that was all the VT103 originally >had which was essential to run and boot an operating >system such as RT-11. I have a few contollers (dual width) that are Both MFM and SCSI that sound like those. I keep putting it on my list of projects to do a simple IDE for QBUS. the design goals would be dual width, boot rom on board and uses a 2.5" drive on the card. So far I've only seen one Qbus IDE and it was lacking for software. Software driver for that hardware is for RT11 alone is a bit of a project as I'd need both the FB and SJ versions of the driver. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 08:02:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:02:25 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <033b01c78014$0d1b1b50$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <79436.35018.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070415214129.04fa0360@mail.30below.com> <033b01c78014$0d1b1b50$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 4/16/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > choice. If, however, your OS requires a writeable drive and demands > > swap space or does lots of filesystems writes outside of human > > control, Flash might not be a wise choice, cheap or not. > > Ethan, remember that in CFs, if you write a sector more times than > allowed and the sector go bad, it is automatically replaced for a good > sector. In effect, if hundreds of sectors go bad you'll not have bad sectors > on the CF, but the total capacity will get smaller. CFs has automatic > remapping/hiding of all bad sectors. I am aware that CF does "wear levelling", but there is a substantial difference of quantity of write activity between, say, CP/M, and VAX/VMS. With CP/M, if I'm sitting at a prompt or sitting inside Wordstar, I don't think the OS is writing to the hard disk behind my back. With VMS, it's pretty much constantly writing to the boot volume at least (you could mount write-protected data volumes) whether you are typing any commands or not. In the case of CP/M, you could decide to accept a 1GB card and present it to the host as, say, a 5MB drive. That would be rather a lot of space to a CP/M machine. You'd be able to fill that drive 200 times, in theory, before you reused a single segment of the CF card. In the case of VMS, though, a 5MB boot volume isn't particularly useful. The smallest I've ever shoehorned VMS 6.0 into (and it was a trick) was an RD54 at 154MB. Practically speaking, unless you are going to use it only with pre-VMS-5.0 distros, you are going to want to present a drive to the VAX in the hundreds of megabytes. If you decide on, say, 250MB, that's quadruple sector redundancy for complete drive re-writes, but in practice, only a percentage of the drive is going to change on a frequent basis as the machine runs. Since the OP mentioned VAX/VMS and I'm reasonably certain that the target would be a MicroVAX with either an RQDX1, RQDX2 or RQDX3, or the near equivalent in an MicroVAX 2000, it's likely that the RQDX controller is the only drive controller on the system. Since part of the problem with machines of that vintage is the lack of available, reliable, large ST506/ST412-interface MFM drives, the whole point of drive emulation is to take a MicroVAX and get it running with no real MFM drives, just emulated ones. Therefore, you will end up with the page file and swap file on the emulated drive. Even if you aren't doing anything "interesting" with your machine, the pagefile and swapfile will still see activity. If you start doing things that need lots of memory, starting VMS Mail, or running a compiler, or using a word processor like MASS-11 (to name a few things we used to do all day long with our departmental VAX 15+ years ago), there will be a flurry of reads and writes at each image launch. While it would "work" to run a VAX from a CF drive, I don't think the lifetime of the CF card would be particularly high. I can't quantify it off the top of my head, but to speculate wildly, I think I'd rather depend on an RD53 drive as unreliable as they are (I still have several from the 1980s,. but I don't tend to use them as boot volumes). As for experience with Flash wear and shrinking capacity, I ran an "Earthdial" at the South Pole over sunny parts of 2004 and 2005. My camera was an old 2megapixel Olympus, chosen because a) it was in the cupboard, and b) it had a serial interface. I wrote a script to take a picture every 2.5 minutes, dump it, add some text at the top and bottom, and post it to my web page. Over a few weeks of operation, that flash card lost two photographs-worth of capacity from being asked to make 576 writes of a few hundred sectors, day after day. Percentage-wise, it was probably 3% of the capacity lost over 4 months of constant use. While the card would then last for years in that arrangement, it does seem like a fast decline to me. This card was an older one. Perhaps newer ones have 10 or even 100 times as many write cycles as ones ten years ago, but that only delays the inevitable. If Flash advances to the point that using it in a write-intensive environment would have a lifetime measured in multiple years, then it's probably a viable replacement for rotating media. We are, after all, accustomed to replacing hard drives every three to five years anyway. I don't think I'd want to intentionally set up a system where I have to be concerned about how fast it's degrading, and watch the hour-meter tick away its remaining lifetime. Yes, the argument could be made that disks do that anyway, but I don't think it's the same when you can set your calendar by the self-destruct date. -ethan From jam at magic.com Mon Apr 16 08:36:16 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fortune 32:16 Message-ID: <200704161336.GAA27350@mist.magic.com> > Do you recall anything about how they coded the machine ID to the > software disks. I believe I have some add on programs that have not > been installed. Most though have machine ID numbers written on the > floppy disks. > I have a couple of these machines here one has an bad Motherboard. The copy protection was quite involved. If I recall, all or portions of the software were encrypted using DES, even when it was stored on the hard drive. Each system had a unique PAL device that was used as part of the decryption process so no two systems could share the same encrypted copy of the software. James Markevitch From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 16 09:16:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:16:01 -0500 Subject: hardware parity generation Message-ID: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk> hacking time... Is parity generation a simple case of chaining exclusive-or gates for the required number of data bits? e.g. for 8 data lines: d0 --+ XOR--+ d1 --+ | XOR--+ d2 --+ | | XOR--+ | d3 --+ | XOR--- parity d4 --+ | XOR--+ | d5 --+ | | XOR--+ d6 --+ | XOR--+ d7 --+ (possibly inverted at the end, depending on requirement for odd/even parity) ... I think that works, but thought I'd ask for list wisdom first :) I don't have a parity generator IC (LS280?) handy, but if the above works then a couple of LS86 chips would do the job*. *possibly a little slower than a "proper" LS280, but that's not critical for what I had in mind. cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 16 09:47:04 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:47:04 -0500 Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46238C68.2050603@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > hacking time... > > Is parity generation a simple case of chaining exclusive-or gates for > the required number of data bits? e.g. for 8 data lines: > > d0 --+ > XOR--+ > d1 --+ | > XOR--+ > d2 --+ | | > XOR--+ | > d3 --+ | > XOR--- parity > d4 --+ | > XOR--+ | > d5 --+ | | > XOR--+ > d6 --+ | > XOR--+ > d7 --+ > > (possibly inverted at the end, depending on requirement for odd/even > parity) > > ... I think that works, but thought I'd ask for list wisdom first :) I > don't have a parity generator IC (LS280?) handy, but if the above works > then a couple of LS86 chips would do the job*. > > *possibly a little slower than a "proper" LS280, but that's not critical > for what I had in mind. > > cheers > > Jules > > Jules, your understanding is absolutely correct. From jim at photojim.ca Mon Apr 16 09:53:07 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:53:07 -0600 Subject: Linux question References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <009101c78036$f1b0e5c0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Smith" To: Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:06 PM Subject: Re: Linux question > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > silence. I'd term it "uninformed puzzlement" not "disinterested silence". Jim From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Apr 16 10:08:57 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:08:57 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions Message-ID: Continuing work on restoring my /34, I'm trying to replace the badly decayed filter it arrived with. A description with photos can be seen at So the questions: * Where is the filter placed? In front of or behind the velcro? * What are the correct dimensions? * Any specifications available for the filter material, thickness, etc? * Any hints on the correct cable routing between the modules in the BA11 and the KY11-LB? I've been unable to locate this information in the on-line manuals and print sets, but if it's there and I just missed it, I'd appreciate the reference. Thanks for any help. John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 16 08:44:06 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:44:06 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Message-ID: <0JGL004DZFGI6M20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) > From: M H Stein > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:23:54 -0300 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:05:49 +0100 (BST) >From: Entity >Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) > > >>I've got a Northstar Horizon that I mentioned on here many, many years >>ago and I've just started looking at it again; once I've got it up and >>running it'd be nice to add some sort of permanent storage, but without >>jettisoning one of the floppy drives. The SuperIO board is one option, >>but I'd like to keep it as stock-Northstar as I can. > >------------- >If you mean Howard Harte's SuperIO board, apparently he's no longer >making or supporting it; too bad. > >mike Thats also a factor. One I'd point out is the only reason for stock NS* Horizon is NSDos (and related NS* software) as the dos is locked to the disk controller hardware. Once you use another disk interface (ANY) NSDos is a non player and CP/M or one of the similar OSs becomes the choice as you can create your own BIOS to match whatever IO hardware you have. An NS* horizon as a S100 crate is a good system and with a higher density FDC or HDC added and CP/M it has a place as a retro system or as an example of hobbiest systems of the time. It was not uncommon to upgrade a NS* with denser disks or even add a hard disk of some form. For the extreme user, since NSDos is on the net in assembly form it's possible to rewrite it to use a differnt disk or disk equivilent. I've played with that so it can be done. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 16 08:57:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:57:50 -0400 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) Message-ID: <0JGL004B9G3E6W40@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:56:56 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 15 Apr 2007 at 19:36, David Comley wrote: >> >>> Exactly. My intended uses are primarily VAX/VMS-based. >> >> Since, as in floppies, you're dealing with raw (unseparated ) data at >> 5MHz or thereabouts, recording bit transitions is out of the >> question. So you'd need some circuitry to both interpret and to >> synthesize not only bits but the various address headers and CRCs. >> IIRC, there wasn't a huge amount of interchangeability between the >> various controller vendors, so you'd need several (selectable) >> routines to handle that. Then there's the matter of RLL and ARLL-- >> and synthesizing CRC or ECC results. > >I'm not sure - remember the task is to emulate a drive, not a controller. >Isn't an MFM ST506/412 drive just a bucket of rotating bits and a track stepper? > >Or does the index pulse function more like that of a hard-sectored floppy - >i.e. the number of sectors per track is fixed in hardware, and there's an >index pulse at the start of each sector? Index is once per revolution. Number of sectors is NOT fixed. One problem is that many of the MFM controllers were into interchangeable. For example a 5mb St506 formatted with my Teltek S100 controller is NOT readable by any WD based controller or for that fact even with a Compupro S100 st506 controller!!! Seems the underlying format (ID, gaps, Sync...) is not standardized at all. Further In the DEC world there were RQDX1/2/3 controllers, the RQDX1/2 were compatable and used the same format as they were the same board (ignoring firmware upgrades and some logic fixes). The RQDX3 however was a differnt animal and required a reformat of the drive (or a specificly RQDX3 formatted replacemen) to use it. In the PC world the WD1003 was a common standard for MFM and the 1005 was a RLL so you alreay had the same drive and two possible formats. Same was true for other systems I'm sure. >Even if that is the case, I wouldn't have thought it makes much difference - >it just means that buffer memory and permanent storage is organised a little >differently. The device is still like a big floppy, just with more heads and >the need to record faster timings between bit transitions: the principle's the >same, it just needs someone with experience of working with fast logic to >design the board layout and code for whatever CPU / DSP is used. There is a notable differnce from say a hard sectord NS* floppy to a 1771 soft sectored TRSdos floppy from a floppy from a system using a 1791. Thats a lot of distance to cover. Sure you can store it as a pattern of bits and it's only possible as ram or some non-moving storage is now cheap. Of course the problem of storage viability over time (longevity of media) is still and issue. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Apr 16 10:44:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:44:29 +0100 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <4622B4F4.22327.12B3B9FD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704160200.l3G1xjgj039918@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4622B4F4.22327.12B3B9FD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1176738269.6027.7.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 23:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Apr 2007 at 22:06, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > > silence. > Some questions get dead silence. I've asked a few of those. I don't > let it upset me. Me, I keep quiet when I don't know, and stay out of the way. Seems like a lot of people do that in here. Gordon From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 11:26:24 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:26:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56 and TC11 racked Message-ID: <10238528.1176740785478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Here are some pics of the TU56 and TC11 racked. http://www.woffordwitch.com/TU56projectNum2.asp I would like to hear from anybody who has ever used Dectapes on a PDP-11. This is new territory for me. Ashley From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 16 11:26:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:26:32 -0600 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:04:51 -0500. <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote... > > The best is if you can find items that are local to you. That's what > > I've bought in the past, to avoid shipping hassles, but honestly its > > usually just the case that the stuff I want is in the middle of 18 > > pallets of stuff at a remote location. > > Then Richard is one of the comparatively few who live right next to a > govliquidation site. If a 1 hour drive is considered "right next to a govliquidation site", then yes ;-) I'm considering a drive up to an air force base on Montana. 8 hours one way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 16 11:27:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:27:21 -0600 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:54:16 -0700. <200704152254.l3FMsG12093165@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200704152254.l3FMsG12093165 at keith.ezwind.net>, Steve Shumaker writes: > One should also add that most of the "packer's" available through the > govliq web site treat ALL materials coming from these auctions as > scrap metal. Craters & Freighters most definately does not fall into that category. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 16 11:27:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:27:03 -0500 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <0JGL004B9G3E6W40@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGL004B9G3E6W40@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4623A3D7.3060800@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: >> Or does the index pulse function more like that of a hard-sectored floppy - >> i.e. the number of sectors per track is fixed in hardware, and there's an >> index pulse at the start of each sector? > > Index is once per revolution. Number of sectors is NOT fixed. Well, that makes life a little easier :) > One problem is that many of the MFM controllers were into interchangeable. Oh, sure. But the OP was just asking about emulating a drive - so the for purposes of that, it doesn't matter: moving controllers might be an issue of reformatting (LLF + HLF) the emulator, just as it is with a real drive. Separately, there is a need I think for a modern device that can look like a *controller* and suck data from old drives, allow it to be interpreted in software on a modern machine, possibly write it back to a drive etc. Now that's a more complex project - but I think the problems in emulating a drive just boil down to making the hardware run fast enough, rather than there being big logic-type challenges. As people (and yourself) have said, modern-ish IDE drives of sufficient capacity and memory to use as buffers is cheap these days. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 11:41:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:41:29 -0700 Subject: MFMulation? (Solid-state replacements for MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <46236488.2040100@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <46229F01.26114.125DFE9C@cclist.sydex.com>, <46236488.2040100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462344C9.2073.14E592D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 6:56, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure - remember the task is to emulate a drive, not a controller. > Isn't an MFM ST506/412 drive just a bucket of rotating bits and a track stepper? I'm not sure that it could even be categorized as a bucket of bits. You get an index once every rev. You get raw data (differential) read and write lines. You can step in and out. Like a big floppy, but faster. ST506 didn't buffer seeks; ST412 did--but then I've got a couple of floppy drives that buffer seeks too. I see no reason, for example that one couldn't record GCR or FM data on one. Heck, if you could goose a floppy controller to run fast enough, I don't think there's any reason that you couldn't interface it to an ST506. Since the old ST506/412 interface drives didn't get really large (ca. 150 MB for "normal" MFM recording) and the medium is non-removable, why not use storage that's more amenable to multiple rewriting, like, say, FRAM or battery-backed SRAM? My point was not that this couldn't be done, but that it was going to be messy. Maybe you could do bit-transition recording and record that a la Catweasel, but I think most people would want to store decoded data on whatever storage medium that was selected. That means your little device would have to accommodate the varioius encoding schemes used by the various controllers. I recall that it was a source of frustration not being able to swap MFM drives between controllers as one might swap floppies around. It seemed that every time I turned around, there would be yet another convention for address ID encoding and a different ECC used. There's precious little public information on the guts of these varioius encodings as far as I've been able to determine. Cheers, Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Apr 16 11:54:47 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:54:47 -0400 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) Message-ID: <200704161654.l3GGslNr002500@mail.bcpl.net> On Sat Apr 14 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > If you want to run the old programs and get the feel of the machine > again, I am told there's a pretty good HP98x0 emulator on the web, and > I think it's open-sourve.... I've taken a quick look at this: http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/ ...and it seems quite impressive. I spent only a little time working with it, but it appears to emulate the hardware and execute code dumps of the actual 9800-series ROMs. Most of the option ROMs are included, as are a number of peripherals. Worth a look. -- Dave From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Apr 16 11:44:46 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:44:46 -0500 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <200704101032.l3AAVkjX099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkjX099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 5:32 -0500 4/10/07, Sridhar wrote: Sridhar and Andy, Good suggestions below. I have a couple of additions, based on my (limited) experience working on the flight hardware on a couple of pretty contamination-sensitive projects I've worked on. Sorry for the delay, I was ( :-) ) working on one of the projects, albeit not one at the clean-room stage, rather than keeping up with my email. >Basically, the purpose of the clean box is to ensure that the air you're >working in is clean. The box should be made from something that won't >turn readily into dust, for example, it should *not* be made of >cardboard. Plastic works best. Painted metal is what we use for practically all of our work. With the right paint, it can be grounded (through resistors) to eliminate the chance of ESD; that's hard with plastics. Also, most of the instruments I've worked on are *very* sensitive to contamination from hydrocarbons. That affects several of the statements I make below, and it precludes most kinds of plastic. Delrin, lexan, and a few others with extremely low outgassing properties are still OK, but there are a lot of plastics that are not allowed in the clean room. I expect this would be much less of an issue (except for the ESD considerations) for something other than UV optics or microchannel detectors. >Also, the box should have at least one clear side. I used perspex for >the sides and top and thick rigid PVC for the base. It's important for >you to be able to see what you're working on. > >Third, it's important to get the box sealed up well, so use plenty of >thick silicone sealant along the corners. And make real sure that the >silicone is completely and thoroughly dry and set up before you use the >clean box. It also couldn't hurt to join the corners on a miter. In >mine, I use a false bottom that holds together with some bolts to make >it easier to open and close the box, so I can get tools and items to be >repaired in and out of the box. In my experience, sealing is a non-issue. In fact, practically all of our clean rooms, clean boxes, etc. have open apertures of one size or another, cracks, vents, etc. What *is* critical is that the volume have positive pressure maintained inside of it while any work is going on. Generally, with a good high-volume but low-pressure supply of clean air, all the dust is removed (blown out the apertures) within about 15 minutes of starting the supply. Of course, if the air supply fails or is shut off, we close things up pretty well and pretty quick, to keep dust from migrating back in. We also wipe down surfaces from time to time, so that whatever dust does manage to accumulate doesn't get stirred up during work. For wiping down, Isopropyl alcohol (um, propan-2-ol?) and lint-free wipes ("Kimwipes" brand, in the US) are the standards. One thing you may not have to worry about is the idea that to us silicone is a four-letter word. Silicone oils are *very* easy to inadvertently transport all over the work via accidental contact on a gloved finger, *very* hard to remove, and fatal to several of the detectors and optics we use. So we don't allow any of that kind of material in the clean room as a general principle. >Fourth, it's a good idea to use an inert gas supply. For reasons of >availability and price, the best choice might be nitrogen. Danger, Will Robinson! I second Simon's caution - do not allow N2 to accumulate in the volume you are breathing out of! Even though the box is "sealed", N2 will be leaking out into the room. If enough of that happens before the room air is replaced (by an open window, or whatever) you die. We don't want that. >Bottled >nitrogen won't be completely clean, A liquid nitrogen dewar is a good supply of clean nitrogen, but that may not be such a useful suggestion .... Meantime, with bottled, regulated nitrogen, you may well have issues with hydrocarbons (if you care about that). Hoses that have been used downstream (or even upstream) of vacuum pumps can have some of the lubricating oil on the inside. Many regulators have grease or oil which can get into the downstream side. If you choose to go this route, you might consider SCUBA gear and plain compressed air (and a filter). Most SCUBA equipment and air suppliers are pretty careful about atomizing oil into divers' lungs, so that can help you. In general, if it has a noticeable odor, it's got some sort of hydrocarbon outgassing or contamination, and we would not use it. Most folks have noses which give them a lot more information than they pay attention to. All that said, we don't use any of that for clean-room work. We use *only* a HEPA (HEPA is a key descriptor, here) filter on the output end of a good ventilation system. We are reasonably careful about the input supply (ie no diesel trucks parking right next to the air inlet), but that's about all. Paxton's comments (hey, if it's good enough for pizza, it's good enough for a hard drive :-) ) are very well taken here. We do use a liquid N2 dewar to supply purge gas which is tubed directly into some instruments to make sure humidity, fumes from drying adhesives, diesel fumes from outside, etc. do not get into the detector and UV optics, but that comes at a really low supply rate and I don't think any of those considerations are applicable to hard drives or to most electronics. >so an air filter is probably a good >idea. Don't use a paper one, obviously. I use a glass allergen filter. A good HEPA filter on a high-volume air supply (ie one that exchanges air in the work area about once every 15 seconds or so) is really *all* you need, in my experience. Put the work upstream of the hands and tools, wipe down the work area with IPA and kimwipes, let the supply run for an hour or so before you start, and I think you should be down to a pretty low level of particulates. > And the gas should go through a regulator. If it comes out too >quickly, it could get supercooled, and that would not be fun. And don't >forget to create a gas outlet with a one-way valve, to prevent outside >air from getting in. If you don't put in an outlet, the gas will find >its own outlet, and that won't be good. True, but see above. Letting the gas get out any (many) ways is OK, as long as it's getting out fast enough that none or not much can come back in. >Obviously, it isn't possible to work in a completely sealed cube. You >also need a place to put your hands into the box to actually *do* the >work. The most reasonable method for doing this is to attach a pair of >gloves to the box itself. Again, getting a good seal between the box >and the glove is of paramount importance. Use a sealant material which >has enough flexibility to do the job. Also, it would be a good idea to >have a way of changing the gloves without tearing the box apart. I >mounted my gloves to the box on opposite ends of the box so that I can >get my hands to anywhere in the box. Good for flexibility with the work, bad for staying downstream of the clean air supply. If anyone is interested, I can try to grab pictures of some of our work setups around here. They are probably fancier than what you'd want, though. >One thing I didn't think of until >after I had built the box is that the positive pressure inside the box >doesn't have to be very high, so you don't have to use gloves that are >very rigid. I used pipefitters' gloves the first time, and I lost a lot >of fine control. I suggest using something much thinner. > >Experiment! It's the easiest way to figure this stuff out. And let me >know how it goes. I'd be interested to know. Good luck. > >Peace... Sridhar There are particulate counters, but not cheap. One idea for a test is to set up your work area, lay a *clean* mirror in it facing up, and leave it overnight. (or do some non-critical work in the area for a few hours). Then look at the mirror under a really bright light or (even better) a UV light. If it still looks clean, you are probably OK. I'm hoping Tony D. (and many others) chime in (or have already done) on this thread; I suspect there's much experience out there more applicable than mine. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From trag at io.com Mon Apr 16 12:05:52 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:05:52 -0500 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <200704160710.l3G7ABRh044469@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704160710.l3G7ABRh044469@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:57:13 +0200 >From: Joost van de Griek >On 4/15/07 5:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> One of the Freecyclers here is having no luck giving away a Mac SE >> (not the SE/30). Is this considered to be a collectible? With an >> 8MHz 68000 and 1 MB of memory, I can't see that it'd actually be >> useful for a lot these days. > >SE's are plentiful and I wouldn't consider them collectible. They're also >uglier than the Mac 128K/512K/Plus, while lacking the SE/30's "incredible >power in a small package" appeal (SE/30's make great servers when packed >with RAM and *BSD). > >Unless you "gotta catch 'em all" or you want a compact Mac to play around >with and there are no other models to be found, skip it. However, except for the logic board, the SE is compatible/identical with the SE/30. So, if you need parts for your SE/30, or have a good SE/30 logic board and need a chassis, then a Mac SE is an excellent and usually affordable sacrificial victim. The one caveat to the above is that the first revision SEs came with an 800K floppy drive while later models came with the 1.44 MB "superdrive" and the SE/30s all came with the 1.44 MB floppy. So some early SEs' chassis will differ from an SE/30 in the floppy drive. Oh, and an aside which some may find useful. Most SE/30s have leaking electrolytic capacitors by this time. So if one does decide to collect an SE/30 (or if one has one sitting unused) it would be a prudent move to desolder the SM electrolytic caps, clean the motherboard, and install tantalum caps in their place. Many SE/30s no longer have working sound or simply fail to boot up at all because of leaking caps. Left untended the goo from the caps will/can disolve important traces, pads, solder or pins on the logic board. Jeff Walther From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 16 12:26:29 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <200704161654.l3GGslNr002500@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <199631.2252.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I received some Heathkit microcomputers (H8's) that included a nice, but non-functional, Selectric based terminal. I cannot find any manufactures name anywhere on it. Does anyone recognize it? I would like to find out more about it and to try and get it working. Thanks, Bob http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term1.jpg http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term2.jpg From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 16 13:08:10 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: References: <200704101032.l3AAVkjX099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200704161809.OAA03769@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For wiping down, Isopropyl alcohol (um, propan-2-ol?) Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for the same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 13:33:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:33:25 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <200704161809.OAA03769@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkjX099470@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200704161809.OAA03769@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4623C175.1040800@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> For wiping down, Isopropyl alcohol (um, propan-2-ol?) > > Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for the > same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) 1-methyl-2-ethanol is another. Quite uncommon though. As is 2-hydroxypropane. Peace... Sridhar From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 13:44:13 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:44:13 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <199631.2252.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200704161654.l3GGslNr002500@mail.bcpl.net> <199631.2252.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I received some Heathkit microcomputers (H8's) that included a nice, but non-functional, Selectric based terminal. I cannot find any manufactures name anywhere on it. Does anyone recognize it? > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term1.jpg > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term2.jpg It looks like the Heath colors from the H8 series. I suspect it is a very limited edition of a Heath terminal. IBM supplied the Selectric as an OEM printer assembly that was used by several companies for a printing terminal. I think it came out of the IBM Mag Tape and Card wordprocessors. Quite a few people were hacking them for use in early 8 bit home computers. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 14:05:29 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:05:29 -0700 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <46233293.7080507@saw.net> References: <011e01c77faa$17bfc480$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> <46233293.7080507@saw.net> Message-ID: > The "tent" is a portable equipment shack, with cooling, it weighs about > 3000+ Lbs. A company I worked for in a previous life used one as a > aircraft landing system base station The printing press look like > trash. I don't know what the rack system is. Though, If it's been in the > same (assumed) emvironment at the press, It's probably corroded junk. > That system has a lot of boat anchor attached to it. > Well I couldn't make the pictures get larger. However this is a mobile print shop , I think for printing topographic images. Put it on the back of your flatbed truck for moving. The press is far from a boat anchor. I resell presses and this one has some value. The paper cutter behind it is a nice electric operated paper cutter, probably the most value with the exception of the shack. The Typesetter looks like it might be a Linotronic and some models still have value and can be driven my modern computers and RIPs. If this were close I would bid on it. but that is because I come from a printing environment and could sell the guts. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 16 14:34:44 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:34:44 -0400 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704161534.44620.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 15 April 2007 22:01, Jason T wrote: > Here's another....crusty old ditto machine, a sink, smelly old > tent...whoa what's that terminal and rack?? > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1191518&convertTo=USD That looks an AT&T (aka Teletype) 5620 terminal. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 16 14:51:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:51:09 -0600 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:26:29 -0700. <199631.2252.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <199631.2252.qm at web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term1.jpg > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term2.jpg Dude! That is very similar to the 2741-ish terminal that I used in 1979 and ran at 134.5 baud. I have been looking high and low for even a picture of this puppy and you got one, you lucky bastard! :-) Yours is slightly different from the one we had, to wit: - ours had an IBM logo put directly on it on the front - ours did not have the slide switches on the left front or right rear - ours did not have the three circular indicator/switches on the right front Ours was that same turquoise color. IIRC, the IBM logo plate was on the front left where your switches are located. Of course this is just based on my fuzzy 25 year old memories and not any actual pictures of the terminal in question. It could have been nearly identical to yours. I also seem to recall that ours had a builtin acoustic coupler, but that could also be a result of fuzzy memories. If you want to unload that beast, just let me know as its something I've really been looking hard for over the past couple of years! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 16 13:55:42 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:55:42 +0000 Subject: Sydex have some Microsolutions Compaticards for sale (maybe) Message-ID: Hi, I've been reading various threads in the archives about reading and writing to old floppy disks, and the Compaticard has been metioned a few times. I read the following on www.sydex.com: " We do floppy conversion (diskette conversion), we can copy any diskette. We have special hardware for reading non-PC floppies. We are the authors of 22Disk, 22Nice, CopyQM and TeleDisk. We still have a few CompatiCard controllers for sale--please inquire about them. We can supply 5.25 inch and 8 inch drives. If it's on diskette, we can handle it. " Personally I am still thinking about buying a Catweasel card, but am unsure about software for reading and writing hard-sector floppies. I have a Northstar Advantage and am happy to make copies of the system disks (for cost of disks and postage), this uses 10-sector floppies. I also have a AES Superplus IV which is a WP system that uses 16-sector floppies, however the system doesn't allow copies of disks to be be made so once my disk fails / wears out that's it. Having some means to copy disks and store an image file for posterity would be nice, but I am eyeing up the AES for spare parts so wouldn't be sad to give up on trying to copy the system disks (there only seem to be a handful of these systems out there so no great loss there I think). There are plenty of Northstar Advantage owners around, and as long as just one system is working then there is a means of copying floppies for the next guy. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Could you be the guest MSN Movies presenter? Click Here to Audition http://www.lightscameraaudition.co.uk From ksr at krother.com Mon Apr 16 15:01:01 2007 From: ksr at krother.com (Ken Rother) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:01:01 -0400 Subject: Linux question References: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <12c801c78061$f63526d0$0401a8c0@KSRPC> cat file1 file2 filen >outfile ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: Linux question >A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: > > How do you concatenate two binary files into one? > > m > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 15:08:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:08:58 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <4623C175.1040800@gmail.com> References: <200704101032.l3AAVkjX099470@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200704161809.OAA03769@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <4623C175.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4623756A.28193.15A388C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 14:33, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > >> For wiping down, Isopropyl alcohol (um, propan-2-ol?) > > > > Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for the > > same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) > > 1-methyl-2-ethanol is another. Quite uncommon though. As is > 2-hydroxypropane. How about Freon TF for wiping down? Some of us old-timers still have some squirreled away, out of sight of the ozone police. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 15:18:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:18:35 -0700 Subject: Sydex have some Microsolutions Compaticards for sale (maybe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462377AB.12892.15AC54C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 18:55, John S wrote: > I read the following on www.sydex.com: > > " We do floppy conversion (diskette conversion), we can copy any diskette. > We have special hardware for reading non-PC floppies. We are the authors of > 22Disk, 22Nice, CopyQM and TeleDisk. We still have a few CompatiCard > controllers for sale--please inquire about them. We can supply 5.25 inch and > 8 inch drives. If it's on diskette, we can handle it. " We unloaded most of this stuff late last year, so I've removed the paragraph from our web site. Thanks for jostling my memory! > Personally I am still thinking about buying a Catweasel card, but am unsure > about software for reading and writing hard-sector floppies. I have a > Northstar Advantage and am happy to make copies of the system disks (for > cost of disks and postage), this uses 10-sector floppies. I also have a AES > Superplus IV which is a WP system that uses 16-sector floppies, however the > system doesn't allow copies of disks to be be made so once my disk fails / > wears out that's it. The Catweasel can undoubtedly make copies of your AES diskette--all it takes is software. I respectfully suggest getting an image of the diskette before it dies completely--one can always resurrect a copy from the image if necessary, but once the original is toast, the data is history. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 16 15:33:54 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:33:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <4623C175.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: der Mouse wrote: >> For wiping down, Isopropyl alcohol (um, propan-2-ol?) > > Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for the > same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) 1-methyl-2-ethanol is another. Quite uncommon though. As is 2-hydroxypropane. Peace... Sridhar I work at a lab and have used some of them before, but I am not a chemist nor have I really had any chemistry training (other than from secondary school). When chemicals have 2 or more names, I often get confused. The only one I know by 2 names is Caustic (soda?), aka Sodium Hydroxide, which is used alot in the lab for various reagents. Why have 2 or more names for the same thing (excluding American English/UK English spelling differences)? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 16 16:03:57 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:03:57 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFF9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Richard wrote: Dude! That is very similar to the 2741-ish terminal that I used in 1979 and ran at 134.5 baud. I have been looking high and low for even a picture of this puppy and you got one, you lucky bastard! :-) [snip] If you want to unload that beast, just let me know as its something I've really been looking hard for over the past couple of years! -- I second that. I've been looking for Selectric based terminals, stand alones, Durawriters, & console I/O writers for many years. Never found a single one. What a great find. I'll stand right behind Richard should you ever want to part with it. Billy From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Apr 16 16:07:23 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:07:23 +0200 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/16/07 7:05 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> Unless you "gotta catch 'em all" or you want a compact Mac to play around >> with and there are no other models to be found, skip it. > > However, except for the logic board, the SE is compatible/identical with the > SE/30. So, if you need parts for your SE/30, or have a good SE/30 logic > board and need a chassis, then a Mac SE is an excellent and usually affordable > sacrificial victim. This is true and I wholeheartedly agree. ,xtG .tsooJ -- "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity." - Nadine (Velociraptor) -- Joost van de Griek From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 16 15:42:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704162108.RAA04962@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for >> the same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) > Why have 2 or more names for the same thing (excluding American > English/UK English spelling differences)? In a word, tradition. Chemstry nomenclature is a mess of tradition and grandfather clauses. I'm not a chemistry historian, so this should be taken with suitable amounts of suitable salts. But I think propan-2-ol is the systematic IUPAC name for the compound. First, there is the name "propane", which is itself grandfathered (the first four hydrocarbons are methane, ethane, propane, and butane, rather than unane, diane, triane, and tetrane, which if I've got my roots right would be the systematic names for them). From "propane" the "propan-" combining form is formed by stripping the trailing vowel (and the "propyl" form, which is visible in "isopropyl alcohol"). Then there is the "-ol" suffix, indicating a hydroxy group attached to a hydrocarbon chain; this too is a historical artifact, being an abbreviated form of "alcohol", the traditional name for such compounds. "Propan-2-ol" is then formed in the systematic way from these, with the "-2-" indicating that the hydroxy group corresponding to the "-ol" is attached at carbon #2. (There is a well-defined way of numbering the carbon atoms; for the moment, we don't need to care about the details, except to know that for propane, it gives the number 2 to the middle carbon.) The other two names are formed based on the "iso" prefix attached to forms of "propane". "iso" is a pre-systematic prefix indicating "variant" (more precisely, "isomer"). In the case of isopropyl, it was allowed to survive; I think this is partly because of tradition and partly because it introduces no ambiguity - there is only one way to make a hydrocarbon out of three carbons and eight hydrogens, and only two ways to turn that into a radical, and with the straight-chain one being "propyl" and "propan-", "isopropyl" and "isopropan-" unambiguously refer to the other. (There's also "butyl", "isobutyl", and "tert-butyl", but that's another can of worms. The way this kind of nomenclature breaks down rapidly with increasing carbon-chain length is part of why the IUPAC system was developed.) One of those names is the combining form ("isopropan-") plus the same "-ol" suffix we saw earlier. The other name is basically the same thing, but with the "alcohol" detached into a separate word; the first word then becomes the group name "isopropyl" rather than the combining form "isopropan-". 1-methyl-2-ethanol actually doesn't look right to me; it's describing the compound in question as ethanol with a methyl group replacing one of the hydrogens, but as I read it, it puts the extra methyl group and the hydroxyl group on different carbons, which leads to propanol, not isopropanol. 2-hydroxypropane is just propan-2-ol rephrased, with the "hydroxy" group name instead of the "-ol" suffix. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 16:12:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:12:06 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4623C175.1040800@gmail.com>, <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46238436.4625.15DD5601@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:33, Andrew Burton wrote: > Why have 2 or more names for the same thing (excluding American English/UK English spelling differences)? One word--custom. Chemistry is a very old subject and it's not at all uncommon to have the "old" name used for commerce and the crafts and the "new" name used by chemistry. "Oil of vitriol" for sulfuric acid goes back to the 8th century; "muriatic acid" for hydrochloric acid hails back to the Middle Ages. You may call it "saltpeter" (a corruption of the Medieval Latin for "salt of stone"), but a chemist will call it potassium nitrate. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Apr 16 16:31:09 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:31:09 +0100 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004101c7806e$8ed685d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Andrew Burton wrote: > When chemicals have 2 or more names, I often get confused. The only > one I know by 2 names is Caustic (soda?), aka Sodium Hydroxide, which > is used alot in the lab for various reagents. > > Why have 2 or more names for the same thing (excluding American > English/UK English spelling differences)? The IUPAC rules are designed to ensure that a conforming name unambiguously describes the chemical structure. Ensuring that names are unique is not a primary goal of the system. That having been said, there are rules that describe the priority assigned to most organic groups. I exepct that in the more complicated cases there may well be some ambiguity, but for something as simple as propan-2-ol I think both 1-methyl-2-ethanol and 2-hydroxypropane (while being unambiguous) break the rules (the former fails to identify the longest carbon chain, the latter uses a prefix that should only be used in the prescence of a higher priority group). In practice you'll see either propal-2-ol (the systematic name) or isopropanol (the old name). Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/762 - Release Date: 15/04/2007 16:22 From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 16:43:42 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:43:42 +0100 Subject: Classic Computing in Nevada? Message-ID: <11c909eb0704161443x1a550f6bp6354ae91a6c8e889@mail.gmail.com> Somewhat reluctantly, I'll be in Las Vegas most of next week. Are there any on-topic sights to see within, say, 1/2 days drive? I'm guessing probably not, but you never know... -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 16 16:53:26 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:53:26 -0700 Subject: Hawk on eBay Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFFB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Out on eBay, a cabinet mount Hawk disk drive. This is the 5MB cartridge/ 5MB fixed disk used by so many OEMS, especially in the early 70's. The parts alone could be worth picking up if you are trying to keep one of these drives going. Billy 270110421676 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 16:58:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:58:07 -0400 Subject: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E6F23E6-5CDC-4485-85E1-11101A3B5610@neurotica.com> On Apr 16, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity." > - Nadine (Velociraptor) Hey, I know her! I can just picture her saying that too. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 16 17:05:22 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:05:22 -0700 Subject: xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFFE@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al Kossow wrote: CHM has an Amdahl 470 and a Siemens 4004 (RCA Spectra). There were lots of people who built byte-oriented machines with instruction sets similar to the 360 and I know there are people who have Interdata, and Univac 9x00 machines. Memorex built a 16 bit 360 like machine, and I have some docs and software for that. The artifacts of these sorts of machines haven't been preserved very well. Same for Burroughs, Univac and NCR (business as opposed to scientific computers). ---------- Billy: Anything in the Museum on the CDC Omega series? These were true IBM 360/370 campatibles, ran IBM software. And of course there are the infamous systems from Hitachi that actually worked on stolen microcode from IBM. Billy From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 17:09:45 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:09:45 -0700 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 Message-ID: <4623F429.7050704@bitsavers.org> Does anyone have a SQ306 they don't need? circa '82 mfm 5 meg removable cart drive From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 17:12:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:12:19 -0700 Subject: Hawk on eBay Message-ID: <4623F4C3.5090105@bitsavers.org> I bid on it the first time. He canceled the auction because the pics weren't supersizing. It's close enough to relatives I'll ask him to deliver it there (it's in Madison) From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 17:29:38 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:29:38 -0500 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <200704161534.44620.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <51ea77730704151845w4fe44c20jed9789ea482ceb59@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730704151901h867487asd808e7e06740a2ed@mail.gmail.com> <200704161534.44620.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730704161529m64b0de3ctd5c3da9ed7d42bd7@mail.gmail.com> On 4/16/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1191518&convertTo=USD > > That looks an AT&T (aka Teletype) 5620 terminal. > > Pat That was going to be my guess. I've got one with my AT&T 3B2 machine: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/438086955/in/set-72157600033400926/ I believe they were made for them by NCR, no? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 16 17:34:30 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:34:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <837001.87421.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thats taught me something today :) But what if you have 7 data bits? How would it work then? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. Thanks to all who answered my chemistry question on another thread. Jules Richardson wrote: hacking time... Is parity generation a simple case of chaining exclusive-or gates for the required number of data bits? e.g. for 8 data lines: d0 --+ XOR--+ d1 --+ | XOR--+ d2 --+ | | XOR--+ | d3 --+ | XOR--- parity d4 --+ | XOR--+ | d5 --+ | | XOR--+ d6 --+ | XOR--+ d7 --+ (possibly inverted at the end, depending on requirement for odd/even parity) ... I think that works, but thought I'd ask for list wisdom first :) I don't have a parity generator IC (LS280?) handy, but if the above works then a couple of LS86 chips would do the job*. *possibly a little slower than a "proper" LS280, but that's not critical for what I had in mind. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 17:08:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:08:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 16, 7 09:16:01 am Message-ID: > > > hacking time... > > Is parity generation a simple case of chaining exclusive-or gates for the > required number of data bits? e.g. for 8 data lines: > > d0 --+ > XOR--+ > d1 --+ | > XOR--+ > d2 --+ | | > XOR--+ | > d3 --+ | > XOR--- parity > d4 --+ | > XOR--+ | > d5 --+ | | > XOR--+ > d6 --+ | > XOR--+ > d7 --+ > > (possibly inverted at the end, depending on requirement for odd/even parity) Yes, exactly that... Your method : (((d0 XOR d1) XOR (d2 XOR d3)) XOR ((d4 XOR d5) XOR (d6 XOR d7))) is logially equvalent to (d0 XOR (d1 XOR (d2 XOR (d2 XOR (d3 XOR (d4 XOR (d5 XOR (d6 XOR d7] but the latter has a longer maximum propagation delay. Incidentally, my TTL data books (heck, the newest over 20 years old now) show gate level scheamtics for the more complex chips (and component level scehamtics for the simple gates). Looking up '74LS280' in there shows the intenral structure. I don't know if that data sheet is availabke on-line, say on digchip or sowmehre. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 17:43:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:43:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> from "Wayne Smith" at Apr 15, 7 10:06:46 pm Message-ID: > Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help - and > that's certainly nice. > > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > silence. I disagree with the last comment. I am not 'disinterested'. I didn't actualy provide the answer to the linux question because others had got there before me and I had nothing to add. But I easily could have given the answere. Darn it, I've got cat running on this machine (obviosuly), I can do a 'man cat' to see if there's anything useful, and so on. No, going back to that Keypro 10. I don't have one. I don't have a technical or service manual (or a schemaitc) for it. Coming from a TRS-80 background I have little experience of CP/M machines (I always felt LDOS was a superior OS), I don't have a single CP/M luggable. I have no experience at all of the 3rd party ROMs that I believe were mentioned in the original question. I can't help the OP. It doesn't mean I'm not interested -- I am. But the only contribution I could make would be 'Sorry, I don't know' and that would be a total waste of bandwidth. For tthe same reason I've not contributed much to the clean bnx thread. I am very interested in this, since one day I will have to do internal repairs on winchester type hard drives. But I know very little about it so far. So I am reading this thread with great interest, sometime I will put some of the ideas -- and some of my ideas, surely -- into practice, and report back as to how I got on. But don't hold your breath waiting for me to do this. Conversely, if somebody posts about a machine I do know a bit about, and if nobody else has essentially said the same things, I do reply. Consider the answers I gave on the 'HP calculators' thread. I don't know how many other people here have a 9820, but I did feel I could provide some useful information here. And FWIW, I cna go on a lot more about that machine's hardware, right down to gate level if need be... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 17:18:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:18:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704161654.l3GGslNr002500@mail.bcpl.net> from "J. David Bryan" at Apr 16, 7 12:54:47 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat Apr 14 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > If you want to run the old programs and get the feel of the machine > > again, I am told there's a pretty good HP98x0 emulator on the web, and > > I think it's open-sourve.... > > I've taken a quick look at this: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/ That's certainly the one I was thinking of... > > ...and it seems quite impressive. I spent only a little time working with > it, but it appears to emulate the hardware and execute code dumps of the > actual 9800-series ROMs. Most of the option ROMs are included, as are a > number of peripherals. Worth a look. Yes. That's whu I looked at it. I am wondering about designing an EPROM module for my HP98x0 machines (should be very simple, actually, the HP ROMs had TTL compatible address and data lines, it' was just the CE line that was odd (active high, and 12V level IIRC). The real HP ROM modules had 4 ROM chips in them (high and low bytes for each of 2 areas with separate select lines on the mdoule connector), I'd want to use 2 EPROMs (high and low byte) and fiddle the selects so that the EPROM was split in hald, one for each select line (if you see wht I mean). A trivial piece of dseign, the hard part being making the PCB with the right edge connector pattern. Anyway, if I did that, I'd need to get some code to stick in the EPROMs, and that emulator distribution seemed like the obvious place (FWIW, the author of said emulator fully approvves). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 17:50:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:50:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <837001.87421.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Apr 16, 7 11:34:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Thats taught me something today :) > > But what if you have 7 data bits? How would it work then? Try something like : > d0 --+ > XOR--+ > d1 --+ | > XOR--+ > d2 --+ | | > XOR--+ | > d3 --+ | > XOR--- parity > d4 --+ | > XOR--+ | > d5 --+ | | > XOR--+ ) | > d6--------+ and invert the output as necessary to get the required odd/even parity. Cue the well-knwon thread on multi-way light swtiches (which are logically parity trees). -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 17:58:03 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:58:03 -0700 Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: References: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704161558y34ee1e06gb5558a711f7951f9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/16/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, my TTL data books (heck, the newest over 20 years old now) > show gate level scheamtics for the more complex chips (and component > level scehamtics for the simple gates). Looking up '74LS280' in there > shows the intenral structure. I don't know if that data sheet is > availabke on-line, say on digchip or sowmehre. > Here's one source: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls280.pdf From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 16 18:03:01 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <200704162108.RAA04962@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200704162108.RAA04962@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070416160235.V44529@shell.lmi.net> > Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for > the same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) "Rubbing alcohol" From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 16 18:08:06 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:08:06 -0400 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704161529m64b0de3ctd5c3da9ed7d42bd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704161534.44620.pat@computer-refuge.org> <51ea77730704161529m64b0de3ctd5c3da9ed7d42bd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704161908.06705.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 16 April 2007 18:29, Jason T wrote: > On 4/16/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1191518&convertTo=U > > >SD > > > > That looks an AT&T (aka Teletype) 5620 terminal. > > > > Pat > > That was going to be my guess. I've got one with my AT&T 3B2 > machine: > > http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/438086955/in/set-721576000334 >00926/ > > I believe they were made for them by NCR, no? Nope, Teletype. If you peel off the AT&T label on the front of the terminal, it says "Teletype" underneath (did that to one of mine...). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 16 18:11:12 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quote attribution (was: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <2E6F23E6-5CDC-4485-85E1-11101A3B5610@neurotica.com> References: <2E6F23E6-5CDC-4485-85E1-11101A3B5610@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070416161019.M44529@shell.lmi.net> > On Apr 16, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > > "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity." > > - Nadine (Velociraptor) > > Hey, I know her! I can just picture her saying that too. ;) It has also often ben attributed to Napoleon, Gordon Liddy, and "Hanlon". From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 18:16:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:16:29 -0700 Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <837001.87421.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <46238521.80206@yahoo.co.uk>, <837001.87421.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4623A15D.21654.164F363C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 23:34, Andrew Burton wrote: > But what if you have 7 data bits? How would it work then? Decide if you want even or odd parity, then tie the unused input either high or low. I think that the early databooks also show how to make a parity generator from a bipolar ROM. Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 16 18:26:07 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:26:07 -0400 Subject: Hawk on eBay In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFFB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFFB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4624060F.9060601@atarimuseum.com> Nice drive, I see Al's going for it. Curt Billy Pettit wrote: > Out on eBay, a cabinet mount Hawk disk drive. This is the 5MB cartridge/ > 5MB fixed disk used by so many OEMS, especially in the early 70's. The > parts alone could be worth picking up if you are trying to keep one of these > drives going. > > > > Billy > > > > > > 270110421676 > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 18:30:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:30:34 -0400 Subject: Quote attribution (was: Mac SE? In-Reply-To: <20070416161019.M44529@shell.lmi.net> References: <2E6F23E6-5CDC-4485-85E1-11101A3B5610@neurotica.com> <20070416161019.M44529@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <847D2A4D-C06A-47C5-BFAA-440621A75292@neurotica.com> On Apr 16, 2007, at 7:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Apr 16, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity." >>> - Nadine (Velociraptor) >> >> Hey, I know her! I can just picture her saying that too. ;) > > It has also often ben attributed to Napoleon, Gordon Liddy, and > "Hanlon". Yep...It's very much Nadine's style, though. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rcini at optonline.net Mon Apr 16 19:27:17 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:27:17 -0400 Subject: OT: Tektronix plug-ins Message-ID: All: I?m trying to help out a friend who isn?t particularly scope-savvy. He has a Tek 7406a scope and wants to know what plug-in he needs to do waveform capture. If anyone knows or can provide come guidance, please let me know. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dj.taylor at starpower.net Mon Apr 16 20:16:07 2007 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:16:07 -0400 Subject: govliq: LG01 DEC printer (San Antonio, TX) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730704141743h6a117601ob5fc9acceb1111c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20070416210100.01f2f7d8@pop.starpower.net> At 09:49 PM 4/15/2007, you wrote: >>Has anyone here successfully bid on and received anything from >>govliquidation.com? Their site has every bit the ease-of-use I'd >>expect from a government facility. The purchase and shipping process >>looks equally intimidating. > >I purchased a number of IBM 2316 disk packs mentioned on the list a >couple of months back. I am VERY HAPPY I drove to Norfolk to pick them >up. > >Those lazy assholes driving the forklifts could not be bothered to >actually LIFT the pallets off the floor when moving them - they just >pushed them along the uneven warehouse floors. I was seen running >across the warehouse when I saw one of the priceless packs bouncing >and skittering almost off the pallet. While this was happening, one of >the shippers had no problems about putting one loaded pallet on top of >another and shrinkwrapping it, all to a delightful sound of crushing >metal and cracking plastic. > >-- >Will I also purchased something from Norfolk, the experience was good. I was happy to get an expensive piece of laboratory equipment for $50. However, the whole process is not set up for the middle-aged amateur electronics hobbyist. I purchased a laboratory spectrometer that I picked up myself. The auction description said it weighed 350 lbs, I thought I could deal with that. It turned out that it wasn't lbs, it was kg!!!! I had rented a minivan to haul this home, but I remember standing outside the warehouse in the cold and mud wondering how in the hell I was going to get this thing in the minivan, and if I did how was I going to get it out once I got home.... The crew at the warehouse was not willing to help, they were pretty worthless. They were there to run the fork lifts to load the bulk lots onto tractor trailers that were coming to pick up. There was one fellow there who was a shipper who helped though, he pointed out the asian fellow who ran the warehouse and he was willing to come out and use the fork lift and some muscle to help me get the instrument into the minivan. I was very relieved. The spectrometer is still on my car port, it will take some doing to get it in the house. [Ramps, pulleys, dolleys, etc - lots of physics - simple machines] I was impressed with the efficiency of the paperwork handling, very well organized. Doug From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 20:19:11 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:19:11 -0700 Subject: OT: Tektronix plug-ins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704161819n2b571d5ye9ceb7124a66290b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/16/07, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m trying to help out a friend who isn?t particularly scope-savvy. He has > a Tek 7406a scope and wants to know what plug-in he needs to do waveform > capture. If anyone knows or can provide come guidance, please let me know. > Thanks. > Are you sure about that model number? http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Support/faq/history.html http://www.caip.rutgers.edu/~kahrs/testeq/7000.html From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Apr 16 20:21:59 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:21:59 -0700 Subject: IRIS Indigo PM2 post-portem Message-ID: <78ab47ba2a5cd5480390e921a39c5947@valleyimplants.com> I recently acquired a SGI IRIS Indigo R4k machine that was nonfunctional. After a bit of troubleshooting I tracked it down to the PM2 (processor module daughtercard, R4400 + oscillator + 1MB cache), which has visible damage to two of the cache RAM chips (smoke holes and cracks). I am trying to trace back the likely sequence of events that lead to this happening so it doesn't happen again. AFAIK in the R4400SC the cache memory is attached directly to the R4400 with the exception of the power leads, and the R4400 has all cache control logic integrated. The PSU voltages have been checked and are within specs, with no excessive ripple. In my experience, chips do not blow up without an external cause that drastically increases the current flowing through the chip, however I also have zero experience with SRAM chips failing in a "spectacular" manner. Is this possible/likely? The other option seems to be the R4400 dying and taking the cache with it. Any ideas on where to proceed from here? From john at kourafas.com Mon Apr 16 20:34:17 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:34:17 -0400 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 / Syquest 100 References: <4623F429.7050704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000601c78090$83fd25c0$ccc8a8c0@jkccng41> I have a few Burroughs Cartridges for a SyQuest 100 tapes.. any idea what model SyQuest drive these are for? JK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 6:09 PM Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 > Does anyone have a SQ306 they don't need? > > circa '82 mfm 5 meg removable cart drive > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/762 - Release Date: 4/15/2007 > 4:22 PM > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 20:46:22 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:46:22 -0700 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 / Syquest 100 Message-ID: <462426EE.8050400@bitsavers.org> > I have a few Burroughs Cartridges for a SyQuest 100 tapes.. any idea what > model SyQuest drive these are for? They are 5.5mb removable disc cartridges, most likely for the Convergent Miniframe. There is mention of it in R.D. Davis' FAQ " 2.4 Were any hard drive interfaces, other than the ST- 506, used with the Miniframe? From the writings of Clarence Dold, dold at rahul.net: No. There was a driver for the removable SyQuest 5MB cartridge, which was mounted as drive one, leaving the odd quirk that the machine wants to boot drive one rst, if one is available " The SQ306 is, in fact, an ST506 compatible drive. If you are able to read these, the Computer History Museum would be interested. There is an effort within the Software Preservation Group to save CTOS software and related hardware. From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 16 08:32:06 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:32:06 -0700 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 In-Reply-To: <4622D4E5.1040703@compsys.to> References: <0JGA00BPT66PDW46@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <461D9972.4010502@compsys.to> <461E6787.8010602@garlic.com> <4622D4E5.1040703@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46237AD6.6050409@garlic.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> jd wrote: > >> I am finding the most recent drives are much hotter than older >> ones. I have a bunch of 3.5's under 10Gb that run way cooler than >> the newer, 10Gb++ lot. Three of my seven newest 30+Gb disks have >> already fried and died and one can't write anymore. I've had to >> liquid cool the survivors because airflow just won't work anymore >> without very cold air. >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I purchased 3 * 40 GB ATA 100 3.5" Maxtor drives in 2002. One died > within a year and was replaced. The other 2 died early this year > followed almost immediately by the replacement. > > I now have 3 * 160 GB drives since they no longer seem to make a 40 > GB drive that is any less expensive. > > But, even though they don't seem to run even warm (I can touch them > and they don't seem any warmer than my hand), PC drives seem to > fail after about 5,000 hours of use. > The last round of drives were Maxtors. They were too hot to touch. Too hot to handle when clamped in a heatsink with a good fan. Liquid cooling kept the temp down to about 108 to 113 degrees Fahrenheit. In winter. Seagates before that which all failed when the warranty chip timed out. -- jd Klein bottle for rent -- inquire within. From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 16 08:16:45 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:16:45 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4623773D.2060907@garlic.com> woodelf wrote: > Wayne Smith wrote: > >> Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help >> - and >> that's certainly nice. > > Well I have my revenge ... *Opps* how do you split the binary file > back again. > > You didn't rm the two source files did you? if so... You could use split but you will have to know _where_ to split it. (@_@) man split && info split. Have fun... (^_^) -- jd "What's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it?" -- The Doctor From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 16 08:08:29 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:08:29 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <4623754D.4020600@garlic.com> Wayne Smith wrote: >> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:18:17 -0300 >> From: M H Stein >> Subject: Linux question >> To: "'m100 at list.30below.com'" >> Cc: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" >> Message-ID: <01C77F60.91DCC0A0 at mse-d03> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> A simple question for the Linux gurus from a WIN/DOS simpleton: >> >> How do you concatenate two binary files into one? >> >> m >> >> > > Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help - and > that's certainly nice. > > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > silence. > > > No. The response is a silent "dunno mate". How about for every question asked, everyone responds, even if it's nothing more than "dunno" or "huh? what's that"? Would that be useful? -- jd The difference between science and the fuzzy subjects is that science requires reasoning while those other subjects merely require scholarship. -- Robert Heinlein From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 16 18:30:34 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:30:34 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <4624071A.FA1EE0E8@rain.org> Are Selectric based terminals that rare? And do the Selectric style typewriters fall in that same classification? I've seen three Selectric style typewriters in the last couple of weeks, and figure they are not worth picking up. > Richard wrote: > > [snip] > > If you want to unload that beast, just let me know as its something > I've really been looking hard for over the past couple of years! From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 23:41:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:41:53 -0400 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <20070416160235.V44529@shell.lmi.net> References: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200704162108.RAA04962@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070416160235.V44529@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46245011.1040304@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for >> the same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) > > "Rubbing alcohol" It's a little less specific. There are several formulations of rubbing alcohol containing some combination of isopropanol, ethanol and water. Peace... Sridhar From wayne.smith at charter.net Mon Apr 16 23:44:47 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:44:47 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <200704162312.l3GNBRnI059304@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:43:58 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Linux question > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves > to help - > > and that's certainly nice. > > > > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like > > poor Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is > disinterested > > silence. > > I disagree with the last comment. I am not 'disinterested'. > > I didn't actualy provide the answer to the linux question > because others > had got there before me and I had nothing to add. But I > easily could have > given the answere. Darn it, I've got cat running on this machine > (obviosuly), I can do a 'man cat' to see if there's anything > useful, and > so on. > > No, going back to that Keypro 10. I don't have one. I don't > have a technical or service manual (or a schemaitc) for it. > Coming from a TRS-80 background I have little experience of > CP/M machines (I always felt LDOS was a superior OS), I don't > have a single CP/M luggable. I have no experience at all of > the 3rd party ROMs that I believe were mentioned in the > original question. I can't help the OP. It doesn't mean I'm > not interested -- I am. But the only contribution I could > make would be > 'Sorry, I don't know' and that would be a total waste of bandwidth. > And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has changed. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing - but it is change. At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list had some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of 50%. "Disinterested" probably comes off as a bit too negative. People aren't really distinterested per se, the current composition of the list just isn't focused on these types of machines. Perhaps it would have been better to say "bewildered silence". -W From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 17 00:13:47 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 01:13:47 -0400 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal In-Reply-To: <200704170504.l3H53Mhr065131@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c780af$2d8c4cb0$6500a8c0@barry> Re: "It looks like the Heath colors from the H8 series. I suspect it is a very limited edition of a Heath terminal" Heath never made anything in any color even remotely resembling that [blue], nor did Heath ever offer a selectric-based product. [The only colors used by Heath computer products were black, a cream off-white, two shades of gray, and the beige/tan colors used in the Z-100 and some other products.] In fact, Selectric-based printers had disappeared (as new products) by the time Heath entered the PC business, relatively late, in 1977. Barry Watzman [former Product Line Director for Heathkit computers and Zenith Data Systems] From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 17 00:27:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:27:40 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> References: <200704162312.l3GNBRnI059304@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <4623F85C.11293.17A3065B@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:44, Wayne Smith wrote: > And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the > list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the > question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I > would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least > a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They > seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has > changed. Except, to my way of thinking, his question had nothing to do with CP/M (I've got a pretty good grasp on that). His concern was with a rather specific third-party ROM for the Kaypro. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 17 00:29:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:29:36 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <46245011.1040304@gmail.com> References: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20070416160235.V44529@shell.lmi.net>, <46245011.1040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4623F8D0.23981.17A4CCD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2007 at 0:41, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > "Rubbing alcohol" > > It's a little less specific. There are several formulations of rubbing > alcohol containing some combination of isopropanol, ethanol and water. And it's still possible to purchase rubbing alcohol that has as its base, ethanol, not isopropanol. (Well, maybe it's got a bit of isopropanol as a denaturing agent. We can't have people drinking ethanol without paying taxes on it, can we?) Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 17 00:41:20 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:41:20 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <4623F85C.11293.17A3065B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704162312.l3GNBRnI059304@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4623F85C.11293.17A3065B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0ff401c780b3$071c6070$0701a8c0@liberator> The only time I had ANY troubles with kaypros and 3rd party roms boiled down to a few errors. 1: Mismatched ROM and OS disk 2: Using an eprom that was rated too fast. When I burned out the same rom image to a slower part it worked. Even after erasing and reprogramming the faster part, and validating that it was electronically (data wise) identical to the older, slower part it would hang on boot with the faster Eprom -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Linux question On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:44, Wayne Smith wrote: > And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the > list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the > question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I > would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least > a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They > seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has > changed. Except, to my way of thinking, his question had nothing to do with CP/M (I've got a pretty good grasp on that). His concern was with a rather specific third-party ROM for the Kaypro. Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 00:48:48 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:48:48 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: References: <200704161654.l3GGslNr002500@mail.bcpl.net> <199631.2252.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46245FC0.1090503@sbcglobal.net> Paxton Hoag wrote: > It looks like the Heath colors from the H8 series. I suspect it is a > very limited edition of a Heath terminal. > > IBM supplied the Selectric as an OEM printer assembly that was used by > several companies for a printing terminal. > > I think it came out of the IBM Mag Tape and Card wordprocessors. Quite > a few people were hacking them for use in early 8 bit home computers. > I originally thought it looked like an IMSAI product, which are blue in color also. I don't think it has anything to do with the 2741 series either, they look like a standard Selectric II typewriter. Also, this does not seem to be an ASCII or EBCDIC terminal. There's no controller inside. It looks like only a solenoid driver controlling some tilt/rotate solenoids. I believe the 2741 had SLT boards inside. (don't know for sure though). Also, I have two IBM MAG card typewriters and this mechanism looks a bit different. I guessing it's a bare bones IBM OEM chassis and used a driver on the microcomputer to control it. Anyway, it's neat! Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 01:00:16 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:00:16 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFF9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFF9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46246270.8000805@sbcglobal.net> The IBM MAG card Selectric's are not too hard to find. Their not cheap, about $50 each, but I've found two in the last year. I have not tried to interface one yet but I do have the manuals and don't think it would be too hard. Also, they made a "Communications MAG Card Typewriter" that has some sort of interface on it. I just missed one a few months ago. Another thing to look out for is the military I/O Selectric's. I bought two from govliquidation a few years ago. Both have some damage from poor shipping though. These have a big round military (ITT/Cannon) type connector and I have yet to find any info on them. I was lucky to find them, they were listed as "Human Communication Device, Typewriter"! My real quest is a "Model B" I/O typewriter as was used on the IBM 1620, model 1. Probably end up with a bunch of solenoids under a standard typewriter! Bob Billy Pettit wrote: > Richard wrote: > > Dude! That is very similar to the 2741-ish terminal that I used in > 1979 and ran at 134.5 baud. I have been looking high and low for even > a picture of this puppy and you got one, you lucky bastard! :-) > > [snip] > > If you want to unload that beast, just let me know as its something > I've really been looking hard for over the past couple of years! > I second that. I've been looking for Selectric based terminals, stand alones, Durawriters, & console I/O writers for many years. Never found a single one. What a great find. I'll stand right behind Richard should you ever want to part with it. Billy From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 01:10:19 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:10:19 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal & Heath H9 terminal In-Reply-To: <000001c780af$2d8c4cb0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <000001c780af$2d8c4cb0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <462464CB.8030504@sbcglobal.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: "It looks like the Heath colors from the H8 series. I suspect it is a > very limited edition of a Heath terminal" > > Heath never made anything in any color even remotely resembling that [blue], > nor did Heath ever offer a selectric-based product. [The only colors used > by Heath computer products were black, a cream off-white, two shades of > gray, and the beige/tan colors used in the Z-100 and some other products.] > In fact, Selectric-based printers had disappeared (as new products) by the > time Heath entered the PC business, relatively late, in 1977. > > Barry Watzman > [former Product Line Director for Heathkit computers and Zenith Data > Systems] > > It was interfaced to one of the H8's I got, but looks like a kludge, nothing original. Don't know if one of the floppies has a driver or not, I have many I have to go through that are marked "printer" (after I get a system up and running!). One of the items I got was an H9 terminal. It powers up but works funny. Characters start at the top RIGHT, shift left for awhile, then drop a line or two and move to the left side. Any idea what to check? Power supplies are OK, I brought them up slowly and reformed the caps. Voltages are OK for what I think they should be. I have not yet found schematics though I'm supposed to have gotten them. Bob From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 17 01:44:42 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:44:42 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848839D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John A. Dundas III > Sent: maandag 16 april 2007 17:09 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions > > Continuing work on restoring my /34, I'm trying to replace > the badly decayed filter it arrived with. A description with > photos can be seen at > > > > So the questions: > > * Where is the filter placed? In front of or behind the velcro? > > * What are the correct dimensions? > > * Any specifications available for the filter material, > thickness, etc? > > * Any hints on the correct cable routing between the modules in the > BA11 and the KY11-LB? > > I've been unable to locate this information in the on-line > manuals and print sets, but if it's there and I just missed > it, I'd appreciate the reference. > > Thanks for any help. > > John Hi John, I can only tell what I have seen on several BA11K boxen, the 10.5" high ones. The filter (if I understand what you mean) is on the outside of the box, above the white front panel. So, there is only filter material on the upper half of the box at the front side. On the 3 black metal pieces (at the outsides and in the middle) is a small band of plastic glued on which you press the filter foam. That is indicated with the "x"s. That small band of plastic is black, has glue on one side and "hooks" on the other side that will hold the foam. Foam is the "famous" brownish stuff that crumbles... ASCII art front view 11/34: ------------------------------------------------------ | x ____________________ x __________________ x | | x | | x | | x | upper part | x | | x | | x | 2 large | x |____________________| x |__________________| x | openings | x x x | |----------------------------------------------------| | | | | lower half | | with 11/34 | | console ------------------------------------------------------ I can make exact measurements this evening or tomorrow, because I have to open up my 11/34 anyway, to help an other list member. I have removed the foam, as its age made it crumble, as usual ... It is not that important as (IIRC) the air is blown through the box by the fans from the PSU at the rear side to the front! If you really want some kind of filter there, you can use the foam that your wife uses in the kitchen in the ventilator above the cooking place. In Holland that filter foam is just a few mm. thick and it is white. But that is not important, as on the 11/34 the filter foam is hidden behind a 5.25" filler panel. But I don't see much use in a filter at the front side, so I have nothing installed there (to obstruct air flow) besides the 5.25" filler panel. Dimensions: As long as it fits :-) That would probably be some 55 cm long and approx 13 cm high. Cabling: AFAIR, there is a 2 or 3 wire power cable, and a flat cable. A bit difficult to describe. I will shoot few pictures this week. - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 17 02:01:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:01:15 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <46246270.8000805@sbcglobal.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFF9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46246270.8000805@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <46240E4B.18.17F8B39C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2007 at 23:00, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > My real quest is a "Model B" I/O typewriter as was used on the IBM 1620, > model 1. Probably end up with a bunch of solenoids > under a standard typewriter! It always seemed like that darned thing would fall to pieces after awhile, particularly after the carriage returns. Didn't Royal or one of the other typewriter manufacturers first offer a solenoid-driven typewriter? Of course, there were the old Teletypes with standard typewriter-style print bars. Cheers, Chuck From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Apr 17 02:02:03 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:02:03 +0200 Subject: Quote attribution (was: Mac SE? Message-ID: <6544wtbrg3uff7j.170420070902@jvdg.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 16, 2007, at 7:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> On Apr 16, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> >>>> "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity." >>>> - Nadine (Velociraptor) >>> >>> Hey, I know her! I can just picture her saying that too. ;) >> >> It has also often ben attributed to Napoleon, Gordon Liddy, and >> "Hanlon". > > Yep...It's very much Nadine's style, though. :) Plus, I added it to my collection after she posted it to the list. So AFAIC, it stays attributed to her. I'm sure you're in my file somewhere, too. Something about suits. :-) ,xtG tsooJ From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Apr 17 02:42:54 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:42:54 +0200 Subject: IRIS Indigo PM2 post-portem Message-ID: <8v6gcy4l3x2krjp.170420070942@jvdg.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > I recently acquired a SGI IRIS Indigo R4k machine that was > nonfunctional. After a bit of troubleshooting I tracked it down to the > PM2 (processor module daughtercard, R4400 + oscillator + 1MB cache), > which has visible damage to two of the cache RAM chips (smoke holes and > cracks). I am trying to trace back the likely sequence of events that > lead to this happening so it doesn't happen again. AFAIK in the R4400SC > the cache memory is attached directly to the R4400 with the exception > of the power leads, and the R4400 has all cache control logic > integrated. The PSU voltages have been checked and are within specs, > with no excessive ripple. > > In my experience, chips do not blow up without an external cause that > drastically increases the current flowing through the chip, however I > also have zero experience with SRAM chips failing in a "spectacular" > manner. Is this possible/likely? The other option seems to be the R4400 > dying and taking the cache with it. Any ideas on where to proceed from > here? The PM2 module is electriacally identical, and mechanically close enough to the modules used in the Indigo2, so if you can score a battered I2 with R4400SC150 module, you can stick that into the Indigo and have the fastest possible configuration of that model. Maybe removing the cache chips will result in a functional PC module, but I never tried that. They are very nice machines. Built like tanks. Even a defunct one serves as a nice example of how workstations *should* be constructed. ,xtG tsooJ From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Apr 17 05:51:06 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:51:06 +0100 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <4623773D.2060907@garlic.com> References: <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <46231655.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> <4623773D.2060907@garlic.com> Message-ID: <1176807066.22077.12.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 06:16 -0700, jd wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Wayne Smith wrote: > > > >> Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over themselves to help > >> - and > >> that's certainly nice. > > > > Well I have my revenge ... *Opps* how do you split the binary file > > back again. > You could use split but you will have to know _where_ to split it. (@_@) > > man split && info split. Or use dd... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Apr 17 06:32:30 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:32:30 +0100 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <4623F85C.11293.17A3065B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704162312.l3GNBRnI059304@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4623F85C.11293.17A3065B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1176809550.22077.18.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 22:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:44, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the > > list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the > > question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I > > would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least > > a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They > > seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has > > changed. > > Except, to my way of thinking, his question had nothing to do with > CP/M (I've got a pretty good grasp on that). His concern was with a > rather specific third-party ROM for the Kaypro. I never got a lot of response the couple of times I asked about Baydel multi-function card boot ROMs. I put it down to having obscure hardware. I'm annoyed that one of the ROMs is shot, because I'm beginning to suspect I have the last working card... I certainly didn't put it down to disinterest or ignorance or anything like that. I just assumed that no-one answered because no-one knew. Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 17 09:14:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:14:17 -0500 Subject: SCSI-1 spec Message-ID: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone have an electronic copy of the SCSI-1 spec (scans or OCR)? I'm homebrewing some SASI stuff, but figured it'd probably be possible to add SCSI support on the same board (hence the hardware parity question yesterday). I suspect the latest SCSI spec *is* around as a PDF, but 90% of it's likely not relevant to dealing with vintage SCSI devices! :-) Failing that, I suspect that some device manuals (such as disk/tape bridge boards) might have useful SCSI documentation within - so recommendations welcome! (I've got a few OMTI, Xebec and Emulex ones here, but despite calling themselves SCSI they tend not to cover arbitration, parity, unit attention etc. and are more like SASI in nature) cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 17 09:47:18 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:47:18 -0400 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> Wayne Smith wrote: > At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list had > some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of > 50%. You're taking your generalization right out of the ball-park. > "Disinterested" probably comes off as a bit too negative. People aren't > really distinterested per se, the current composition of the list just > isn't focused on these types of machines. Perhaps it would have been > better to say "bewildered silence". The response to any query on this list depends on the rarity of the hardware, the level of past experience with that hardware (a lot of listers have worked with systems they don't currently own), the clarity and amount of detail in the question, whether there's a tasty flame war ongoing, and the positions of the moon, Mars, and Uranus. I've asked questions here and gotten dead silence; asked the same question again in a few weeks and gotten lots of response and several solutions. Trying to make something of that or draw some conclusion from it is Not Right. Doc From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 17 09:52:41 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:52:41 -0500 Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: <200704150102.l3F12ES5023874@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704150102.l3F12ES5023874@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 20:02 -0500 4/14/07, ard wrote: >It puzzles me too. The connector in question is a normal, double-sided 25 >pin (per side) 0.156" pitch edge connector. That's actually not a common >size in the UK (0.156" pitch is not normally used over here), so it's >probably somebody 'borrowed' it becuase it was the easiest way to get >that sort of connector. Is there any chance that the connector was removed because it was causing some sort of mechanical interference or stress on the board? Just guessing wildly, but maybe, if it was otherwise non-functional....? -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 17 10:09:32 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:09:32 -0500 Subject: Linux question References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote... >> At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list had >> some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of >> 50%. I will make my own generalization - that the above is probably not correct ;) Doc wrote... > The response to any query on this list depends on the rarity of the > hardware, the level of past experience with that hardware (a lot of > listers have worked with systems they don't currently own), the clarity > and amount of detail in the question, whether there's a tasty flame war > ongoing, and the positions of the moon, Mars, and Uranus. Actually, that's a very good synopsis. > I've asked questions here and gotten dead silence; asked the same > question again in a few weeks and gotten lots of response and several > solutions. And completely correct here too - I have had the exact same thing occur on quite a few occasions. Sometime peoples minds are just elsewhere, and that's ok. > Trying to make something of that or draw some conclusion from it is Not > Right. Well, I'll go as far as "incorrect" :D Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 10:10:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:10:43 -0400 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <46246270.8000805@sbcglobal.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47BFF9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46246270.8000805@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <12487328-A492-434B-8023-F12685A2FEBF@neurotica.com> On Apr 17, 2007, at 2:00 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > The IBM MAG card Selectric's are not too hard to find. Their not > cheap, about $50 each, but I've found two in the last year. Where have you found them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From john at kourafas.com Tue Apr 17 10:12:11 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:12:11 -0400 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 References: <462426EE.8050400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001301c78102$c5ef4ae0$c8c8a8c0@UUZ> >Does anyone have a SQ306 they don't need? >circa '82 mfm 5 meg removable cart drive http://cgi.ebay.com/SYQUEST-SQ306R-5MB-CART-DRV-SQ306R_W0QQitemZ120109835699QQihZ002QQcategoryZ162QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem This seller is usually way over priced on his items, but does list 2 available. -John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:46 PM Subject: Re: ISO Syquest SQ306 / Syquest 100 > > I have a few Burroughs Cartridges for a SyQuest 100 tapes.. any idea > > what > > model SyQuest drive these are for? > > They are 5.5mb removable disc cartridges, most likely for the Convergent > Miniframe. There is mention of it in R.D. Davis' FAQ > > " 2.4 Were any hard drive interfaces, other than the ST- > 506, used with the Miniframe? > > From the writings of Clarence Dold, dold at rahul.net: > No. There was a driver for the removable SyQuest 5MB cartridge, which > was mounted as drive one, leaving the odd quirk that the machine wants > to boot drive one rst, if one is available " > > The SQ306 is, in fact, an ST506 compatible drive. > > If you are able to read these, the Computer History Museum would be > interested. > There is an effort within the Software Preservation Group to save CTOS > software > and related hardware. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 10:12:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:12:57 -0400 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal In-Reply-To: <000001c780af$2d8c4cb0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <000001c780af$2d8c4cb0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <1A6E871D-D2B6-4D9B-9559-CB94AE0B04C5@neurotica.com> On Apr 17, 2007, at 1:13 AM, Barry Watzman wrote: > Barry Watzman > [former Product Line Director for Heathkit computers and Zenith Data > Systems] Oh REALLY! 8-) Perhaps I can pick your brain for a moment. :) There was a neat Heath machine, I believe it was 8086 or 8088 based, that had a solderless breadboard built into it...I beleive it was even connected to the bus. What would that have been? I'd like to find one, but it's been a difficult search not knowing what it was called. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jim at photojim.ca Tue Apr 17 10:40:14 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:40:14 -0600 Subject: Linux question References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <012501c78106$b15e90a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- > Wayne Smith wrote: >> "Disinterested" probably comes off as a bit too negative. People aren't >> really distinterested per se, the current composition of the list just >> isn't focused on these types of machines. Perhaps it would have been >> better to say "bewildered silence". (I hope that was Wayne :) ) "Disinterested" actually means detached. If you sign a contract, often we get a disinterested person to witness your signature. This is someone who has nothing to do with the contract. The person might be very interested :) but they are not a party to it and don't stand to gain, hence they are disinterested. If they don't care about the contract, then they'll be uninterested. Ain't English fun? Incidentally, I'll put my hand up as being a CP/M machine owner, if you count a Commodore 128. I have CP/M floppies for it and even have a set of formal DRI manuals for CP/M Plus. Can't say I've ever done anything productive with CP/M, but I certainly intend to play with it sometime. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 17 10:44:58 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:44:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848839D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <004401c78107$5aa586a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> John wrote.... >> * Where is the filter placed? In front of or behind the velcro? >> >> * What are the correct dimensions? >> >> * Any specifications available for the filter material, >> thickness, etc? >> >> * Any hints on the correct cable routing between the modules in the >> BA11 and the KY11-LB? >> >> I've been unable to locate this information in the on-line >> manuals and print sets, but if it's there and I just missed >> it, I'd appreciate the reference. Odd, I ran into exactly this dilemma when restoring my 11/34 a few months ago. In my case, I was able to see exactly how it was done before I got the machine due to glue residue and fragments of filter still attached. However I can't tell if this method was factory issue - or if it was just how someone before me years ago did it on this machine. What I can say is that there were apparently different methods over time, as another 11/34 chassis I have clearly wasn't done the same way as the one I recently restored. Not only that, but the two /34 chassis are machined differently with different parts on the front as it relates to this specific question. The one I recently restored, the filter obviously covered the entire front, behind the 1/2 "dec unit" filler panel AND the 11/34 front panel - all one piece. To my own eye, it would seem quite silly/ineffective to cover just the top portion behind the filler panel. The full frontal piece of foam was held in place by three mechanisms. First, there were small strips of velcro (the plastic grabbing fingers you described) horizontally. These appear to have just held it in place while the other fastening mechanisms were put in place, and afterwards to keep it from gapping. Second, there were two flat metal vertical bars in front - one on each side - that bolt to the chassis. Each end of the foam was held in place by being clamped under these bars. There were clear indications of disintegrated filter under these bars and that's the only way it could have gotten there. Lastly, there was some glue residue under the bars as well. I removed the glue residue with goo-gone and decided not to use the glue for the new piece of foam. I bolted the bars down on each side on top of the filter media holding it in place (this means I had to make nice holes in the filter media to allow the bolts to go through without binding up the filter. To do this I used an old throw-away soldering iron. One jab and I had nice perfect hole (cauterized even!) in the media right over the bolt hole. Then into these two bars of metal screwed the DEC filler panel snap-on plastic clips on top and the 11/34 front panel on the bottom. The one part I can't remember for sure is how I routed the front panel cables out from behind the foam. I *THINK* I cut a slight rectangle out of the corner on the bottom right, but I'm not positive. It is also possible I routed them out towards the bottom where the filter media isn't actually attached other than velcro. I can check if you'd like. I just looked on another 11/34 chassis that I have, and it has no such vertical metal bars under which to clamp the filter media. But this one has a LOT of velcro on the sides, top, bottom, and middle. This one obviously just used velcro and the filter media covered the entire front of the chassis, front panel bolted on on top of it. For filter media, I used the light grey foam pieces that are designed to be used in window airconditioners and some dehumidifiers. It is about 1/8 of an inch thick and comes in sheets or sometimes loops. For some other projects like this I was able to find a different air conditioner filter media that is 1/4 inch thick and more rigid. I liked this style better for certain things, but by looking at the old crumbling foam in the /34's I was able to tell that the 1/8 (and more flexible) filter media was the more accurate choice. Hope this helps! Jay West From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 17 09:53:28 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:53:28 -0300 Subject: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 Message-ID: <01C780E7.56AC94A0@MSE_D03> ------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:32:06 -0700 From: jd Subject: Re: ST506 WTB:Micropolis 1325 >Seagates before that which all failed when the warranty chip timed out. LOL!! Hmmm... do you suppose...? m From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 17 10:51:53 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200704171557.LAA16353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anyone have an electronic copy of the SCSI-1 spec (scans or > OCR)? [...] > I suspect the latest SCSI spec *is* around as a PDF, but 90% of it's > likely not relevant to dealing with vintage SCSI devices! :-) > Failing that, I suspect that some device manuals (such as disk/tape > bridge boards) might have useful SCSI documentation within - so > recommendations welcome! Well, it's not quite what you asked for, but I do have a disk-drive manual from Seagate that looks like a fairly decent SCSI spec for those aspects implemented by the drives it covers. It does cover things like arbitration. It looks to me as though a good computer electronics tech should be able to build a SCSI interface sufficient to talk to the drives using just this manual - though I haven't actually tried it, so there may be something I'm missing. ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/seagate-drive-doc.pdf (yes, I'm afraid it's a PDF, but that's what I've got). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 17 11:22:30 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:22:30 -0700 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 Message-ID: <4624F446.40009@bitsavers.org> > This seller is usually way over priced on his items And when they don't, they mysteriously discover the item isn't in stock any more. They priced some Kennedy 96xx tape drives low, and reneged on the deal. avoid "IT Equipment Express" From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 11:23:22 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:23:22 +0100 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I have a SCSI disk drive manual M2244S/SA/SB M2245S/SA/SB M2246S/SA/SB which if I remember correctly has a lot of good info (not scanned yet) nag me if needed Dave Caroline (archivist in #classiccmp on FreeNode) From john at kourafas.com Tue Apr 17 11:36:08 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:36:08 -0400 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 References: <4624F446.40009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <003501c7810e$8041f540$c8c8a8c0@UUZ> Can't seem to find a picture of the SQ306 drive so I can identify one if I ever come across them.. -JK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 > > This seller is usually way over priced on his items > > And when they don't, they mysteriously discover the item isn't in stock > any more. > > They priced some Kennedy 96xx tape drives low, and reneged on the deal. > > avoid "IT Equipment Express" > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 17 11:52:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:52:36 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 spec Message-ID: <4624FB54.20607@bitsavers.org> > I have a SCSI disk drive manual M2244S/SA/SB M2245S/SA/SB M2246S/SA/ I have B03P-4805-0008A_M224SAX_Sep85 scanned From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 11:59:46 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:59:46 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/17/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Does anyone have an electronic copy of the SCSI-1 spec (scans or OCR)? I'm > homebrewing some SASI stuff, but figured it'd probably be possible to add > SCSI > support on the same board (hence the hardware parity question yesterday). I collected some SCSI specs from the internet before start the MSCPSCSI project. There is a SCSI2 spec on-line, which covers SCSI1 commands (those 'short' ones). I will check my computer after I get home. Another good place to start is to get NCR 5380 manual and look at those open-source 5380 drivers. This chip is as simple as a parallel port and I think you can even find schematic/CPLD code of it. I bought a 5380 based ISA card, just in case I want to integrate the SCSI port in CPLD some day. vax, 9000 From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 17 12:13:15 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:13:15 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: <200704171703.l3HH2TLg076628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry> The H-9 was flakey even when it was introduced. It was not a reliable product, and will probably be difficult to get working. Probably bad ICs or, worse, bad IC sockets. Do you have a complete H-8 (or several)? By complete, I mean chassis & CPU, reasonable memory, disk controller, serial I/O card and the "CP/M Card" (a tiny small card, only about 3 inches wide, that allows the computer to run CP/M ... I think that the original name was "extended configuration card" or something like that). In my opinion, the best terminal for old PCs is an old laptop using a terminal program through it's serial port. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 17 12:28:33 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:28:33 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 spec Message-ID: <462503C1.5090904@bitsavers.org> > I collected some SCSI specs from the internet before start the MSCPSCSI > project. any new news on that? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Apr 17 12:34:31 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:34:31 -0400 Subject: OffTopic: For Sale, Icom 746 & Linear PS Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070417130547.04da0510@mail.30below.com> Of course, all replies offlist. Roger needs a new AT keyboard converter to finish his CoCo repack... (and a newer laptop) and there's a lot of Ham Radio enthusiasts here, so I apologize for the offtopicness of the forsale, and if I've done bad things, slap me in the face with a frozen mackerel... but hey... at least it's not a linux distro advocacy thread! I haven't used my Icom 746 in a few years, so I'm going to sell it. $750 + shipping (your choice of USPS, UPS, FedEx or DHL) from 49783 (I can have the weight available for anyone interested this evening - it's already packed up) - It's super-clean, no scratches on the faceplate or finish (well, except around the screws, but that's to be expected) No dust or anything on the inside - and it does have 2 installed crystals (of the six max.) a CFK455K-5 DSP filter, and an Icom FL-272 9Mhz/2.4KHz SSB filter. I'm also selling the 35A 12V *linear* power supply that will run this and much more - also super clean, only used a few times - it's a Victory PS35 - $80 + shipping. I have pictures here - they're unsorted, but they're named fairly aptly: http://www.1400rpm.com/epay As the directory name suggests, if I have no takers, they'll be on ePay next Sunday. The *cheapest* 746 sold on ePay lately was for $760, and that was with inflated shipping. ;-) I apologize for the pictures - I've had "depth of field issues" with my Nikon D70 in the past, so I was tinkering with the settings - these are around 1-second exposures with natural light at maximum aperture. I had a tripod, but the long exposure time still didn't do me any favors with sharpness, but hey - at least the DOF is better!!! ;-) I'd be happy to provide better pictures on request. Again, thanks for not lynching me (yet) and all responses offlist. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 17 12:40:44 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:40:44 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 spec Message-ID: <4625069C.7070907@bitsavers.org> Here is the last working draft. http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/s1/s1-r17b.txt From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 12:34:43 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <12487328-A492-434B-8023-F12685A2FEBF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070417173443.84638.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dave McGuire wrote: On Apr 17, 2007, at 2:00 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > The IBM MAG card Selectric's are not too hard to find. Their not > cheap, about $50 each, but I've found two in the last year. Where have you found them? At first, I got two MAG CARD controller boxes from Weird Stuff (Thanks to Lyle Bickley!). Then one typewriter section from Craigslist, in pretty poor shape though. The last typewriter section was from ebay a few weeks ago (item: 220092969446). I only had the seller ship the typewriter section attached to it's controller card cage to keep shipping cost down. Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 12:28:14 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <581885.80596.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Barry Watzman wrote: The H-9 was flakey even when it was introduced. It was not a reliable product, and will probably be difficult to get working. Probably bad ICs or, worse, bad IC sockets. Do you have a complete H-8 (or several)? By complete, I mean chassis & CPU, reasonable memory, disk controller, serial I/O card and the "CP/M Card" (a tiny small card, only about 3 inches wide, that allows the computer to run CP/M ... I think that the original name was "extended configuration card" or something like that). I got two H8's and one dual disk drive box. There are two CPU cards, three serial/cassette cards, a parallel I/O card, one disk controller card, four 16K memory cards, and about 50 floppies full of software. Nothing that looks like the CP/M cards though. Also, an H19 terminal and H89 computer plus the Selectric. I got the H19 working and am currently bringing up the H8 power supplies. The Selectric is going to be the hardest to restore though. Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 12:41:20 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NCR 399 In-Reply-To: <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <295198.49249.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's an NCR 399 computer on ebay I was thinking of bidding on (I like desk sized computers!). Does anyone know anything about them? It's item number: 290105191721. Thanks, Bob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 17 13:06:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:06:56 -0500 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <4625069C.7070907@bitsavers.org> References: <4625069C.7070907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46250CC0.2090801@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > Here is the last working draft. > > http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/s1/s1-r17b.txt Fantastic - thanks! :) From shumaker at att.net Tue Apr 17 13:16:28 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:16:28 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <200704171557.LAA16353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4624D639.2020201@yahoo.co.uk> <200704171557.LAA16353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200704171817.l3HIHUoV037527@keith.ezwind.net> The original SCSI spec in draft mode is here: http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/s1/s1-r17b.txt s shumaker At 08:51 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote: > > Does anyone have an electronic copy of the SCSI-1 spec (scans or > > OCR)? [...] > > > I suspect the latest SCSI spec *is* around as a PDF, but 90% of it's > > likely not relevant to dealing with vintage SCSI devices! :-) > > > Failing that, I suspect that some device manuals (such as disk/tape > > bridge boards) might have useful SCSI documentation within - so > > recommendations welcome! > >Well, it's not quite what you asked for, but I do have a disk-drive >manual from Seagate that looks like a fairly decent SCSI spec for those >aspects implemented by the drives it covers. > >It does cover things like arbitration. It looks to me as though a good >computer electronics tech should be able to build a SCSI interface >sufficient to talk to the drives using just this manual - though I >haven't actually tried it, so there may be something I'm missing. > >ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/seagate-drive-doc.pdf (yes, I'm >afraid it's a PDF, but that's what I've got). > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 17 13:23:47 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:23:47 -0500 Subject: NCR 399 In-Reply-To: <295198.49249.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <295198.49249.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462510B3.70602@pacbell.net> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > There's an NCR 399 computer on ebay I was thinking of bidding on (I like desk sized computers!). Does anyone know anything about them? It's item number: 290105191721. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > I don't know anything about it, but google does: I just searched on "ncr 399". http://www.thecorememory.com/html/ncr_399.html http://www.montagar.com/~patj/ncr_01.htm and some others. From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 13:28:08 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:28:08 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <462503C1.5090904@bitsavers.org> References: <462503C1.5090904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/17/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I collected some SCSI specs from the internet before start the MSCPSCSI > > project. > > any new news on that? > > Thank you for asking. It worked with NetBSD with no problem. With VMS, It met a problem that I do not know the cause yet. I compared the messages of my controller, and the messages of simh (I plugged in some printf()'s in simh ) when booting VMS CD. It seemed my controller stuck at a place when VMS installer tried to re-initiate the controller. The SA/SAW communication did not went through. I post the messages here, to see whether somebody can give me some suggestions. In each transaction, bl=scsi CD block number to be read; ba=QBUS memory address to be written to; bc=number of bytes. SAR means controller placed a value to SA register for CPU to read; SAW means CPU wrote SA register. IPW means CPU wrote IP register to reset the controller. Messages of my controller: jumper set to fast DMA; new c94irq installed; EXPECTED_RESET... drive #0 , 1057758 blocks, 512Bytes/block, SCSI1 drive #1 , 1331808 blocks, 512Bytes/block, SCSI1 drive #2 not detected drive #3 not detected rq_scsi[ 0]={rq_ID= 0, scsi_ID= 0, period= 5, offset= 0, blocks=1057758} rq_scsi[ 1]={rq_ID= 1, scsi_ID= 1, period= 5, offset= 0, blocks=1331808} SAR=b40 SAR=b40 IPW SAR=b40 SAW=8000 SAR=1080 SAW=1c6 SAR=2000 SAW=0 SAR=4133 SAW=1 SAR=0 bl=1, ba=418, bc=200 ...(note: 96 similar lines removed for clarity) bl=e70a7, ba=4c0, bc=28c0 IPW SAR=b40 SAR=b40 IPW SAR=b40 SAW=8000 SAR=1080 SAW=1e SAR(CONFLICT)=2000 SAW=0 SAR=4133 SAW=1 SAR=0 bl=a2b88, ba=580, bc=200 bl=e74c8, ba=5ac, bc=200 ...(note: 166 similar lines removed for clarity) bl=e6d85, ba=5ac, bc=200 IPW SAR=b40 SAW=a4ff SAR=10a4 IPW SAR=b40 SAW=a4ff SAR=10a4 ...(Note: repeat this line for ever. CPU issued IPW to reset the controller; then controller placed 0xb40 in SA register for CPU to read; CPU wrote to SA register with 0xa4ff; then controller placed 0x10a4 in SA register for CPU to read. Then CPU should write SA with another value but it stopped and reset the controller again and again.) SIMH messages when booting the VMS CD image: ...(Exactly the same messages as of my controller, until it reached the point where my controller stuck) bl=e6d85, ba=5ac, bc=200 IPW SAR=b40 SAW=a4ff SAR=10a4 SAW=c450 SAR=20ff SAW=3 SAR=4133 SAW=403 SAR=0 bl=a2b97, ba=3e194, bc=200 ...(it did not stop and reset controller after read 0x10a4, but went on and wrote SA with 0xc450 instead) One possibility is that the controller did not place fast enough in SA register the value CPU was looking for. I need several days to calm down before I look at this problem again. vax, 9000 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 10:22:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:22:42 -0600 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:30:34 -0700. <4624071A.FA1EE0E8@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <4624071A.FA1EE0E8 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > Are Selectric based terminals that rare? Yes. I haven't seen one in person since 1982 when I last used one, despite all the computing facilities I've been in since then. > And do the Selectric style typewriters fall in that same classification? They are much more ubiquitous than the terminals. But they are very heavy. Typewriters in general are becoming less common, but I suspect it will be some time before Selectrics start becoming scarce due to the number produced. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 14:28:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:28:11 -0600 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:48:48 -0700. <46245FC0.1090503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <46245FC0.1090503 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I originally thought it looked like an IMSAI product, which are blue in > color also. I don't think it has anything to do with the 2741 series either, > they look like a standard Selectric II typewriter. Yeah, all the pictures I could find of 2741s look like a Selectric II. The one I used looks like yours, I particularly remember that big part that sticks out the back behind the roller. This is where the acoustic coupler was mounted on the one that we had. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Apr 17 14:28:39 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:28:39 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C541@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: The IBM MAG card Selectric's are not too hard to find. Their not cheap, about $50 each, but I've found two in the last year. I have not tried to interface one yet but I do have the manuals and don't think it would be too hard. Also, they made a "Communications MAG Card Typewriter" that has some sort of interface on it. I just missed one a few months ago. Another thing to look out for is the military I/O Selectric's. I bought two from govliquidation a few years ago. Both have some damage from poor shipping though. These have a big round military (ITT/Cannon) type connector and I have yet to find any info on them. I was lucky to find them, they were listed as "Human Communication Device, Typewriter"! My real quest is a "Model B" I/O typewriter as was used on the IBM 1620, model 1. Probably end up with a bunch of solenoids under a standard typewriter! Bob ----------------- Billy responds: I consider $50 for a Selectric with interface connections extremely cheap. I would expect them to be much more scarce than that. The military machines sound familiar. I'm certain they are covered in some manuals I loaned Al recently to scan. The heart of the I/O Writers used the IBM model 72 and model 73. Al has my manuals for both - they are CDC reprints of IBM Service manuals. Plus I loaned him some parts manuals that have great exploded views for repairing the units. I used all of these manuals when I was trained on the Selectrics, back in 1967. Also, Al has already posted some IBM reference manuals. But I think they are in the CDC folder under terminals. One of the manuals I loaned Al also has all the interface timing and signal levels and how to control. Finally, Wayne Green published a nice little paperback on interfacing a Duramachine to a PC. It has a good basic circuit that could be used to start your own design. I have one Model B with the Sorobon mechanism to drive the typewriter from a computer. It was used on all the CDC computers plus many of the other computer companies of the era. I don't believe that IBM used Sorobon, instead did their own design on the 1620. But I've never dug into a 1620 so don't know what the encoder looks like. I have some other Model B's to use as spares, but no other encoding devices. Would love to find more on the history of that company: Sorobon. About all I know is that they were based in Florida when I ordered some parts from them in the 70's. Still have some of the spare solenoids they used. Guess I should measure and document them. Billy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 14:29:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:29:23 -0400 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: References: <4624071A.FA1EE0E8@rain.org> Message-ID: > They are much more ubiquitous than the terminals. But they are very > heavy. Typewriters in general are becoming less common, but I suspect > it will be some time before Selectrics start becoming scarce due to > the number produced. Selectrics are also still in use in more than a few small offices. Additionally, there is a small (but larger than one might expect) group of folks that collect typewriters. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 14:33:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:33:48 -0600 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:13:15 -0400. <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: In article <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0 at barry>, "Barry Watzman" writes: > [...] the "CP/M Card" (a > tiny small card, only about 3 inches wide, that allows the computer to run > CP/M ... I think that the original name was "extended configuration card" or > something like that). Do you mean this? Ebay item 200100612888 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Apr 17 15:10:16 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:10:16 -0500 Subject: OT: Tektronix plug-ins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070417150501.0cecc268@localhost> At 08:27 PM 4/16/2007 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > I?m trying to help out a friend who isn?t particularly scope-savvy. He has >a Tek 7406a scope and wants to know what plug-in he needs to do waveform >capture. If anyone knows or can provide come guidance, please let me know. >Thanks. I just repaired a Tek 7904 scope. I think most of the 7000 series plug-ins are at least connector-compatible, and most of them work across the line. The place to get the real answers is the Tekscopes yahoo group. They were very helpful and Iwouldn't have tried this repair w/o tips and info from them. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ Also, an absolutely great resource is http://bama.sbc.edu/tektroni.htm where you can find most of the manuals for everything Tektronix made. Hope this helps. de N9QQB ----- 744. [Faith] To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty... this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. --Albert Einstein --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 15:15:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:15:03 -0400 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 In-Reply-To: <4624F446.40009@bitsavers.org> References: <4624F446.40009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > This seller is usually way over priced on his items > > And when they don't, they mysteriously discover the item isn't in > stock > any more. > > They priced some Kennedy 96xx tape drives low, and reneged on the > deal. > > avoid "IT Equipment Express" Aren't those the guys who put a gazillion images in their auctions, but never any pictures of the item they're selling? *grumble* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Apr 17 15:16:35 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:16:35 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848839D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848839D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Henk and Jay, Thanks for your comments. It's odd that this isn't in any of the FMPS anywhere (that I have seen). I can't help but think there must have been some Field Service maintenance procedure (and thus document) or training document somewhere that addresses this. I would imagine this was a typical PM checklist item. OK, so the filter OUTSIDE of the velcro, between the panels and the box frame, makes sense. You can see on mine that there are 4 velco strips. I don't see any evidence of a retaining bar, as Jay mentioned, though that makes sense. Also in the picture of my as-found filter, there is a hole on the left that looks to have been cut rather than decayed. I wonder if some cable routing was done through that? The ribbon cable needs to attach to the left of the programmer panel, though I'm not sure how it's supposed to leave the box. The power and display cables route from the right to the middle of the programmer panel. I can't use the condition I found this in to determine if the filter was half height (Henk's case) or full height (Jay's). I agree that the filter doesn't seem to actually do much. Especially in my case where I don't have a top to close the box anyway. I'm just seeing how close I can get to factory-fresh conditions. Thanks for all the comments. John From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 17 15:21:03 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NCR 399 In-Reply-To: <462510B3.70602@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <268122.73039.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jim Battle wrote: Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > There's an NCR 399 computer on ebay I was thinking of bidding on (I like desk sized computers!). Does anyone know anything about them? It's item number: 290105191721. > > Thanks, > > Bob> I don't know anything about it, but google does: I just searched on "ncr 399". http://www.thecorememory.com/html/ncr_399.html http://www.montagar.com/~patj/ncr_01.htm and some others. I saw the stuff on the web. I was just hoping someone here had actually used one and could give me an impression if it was worth saving. Looks like most people are interested in the RS computers and would pay the $75 to have the NCR trashed. I don't think it can be used as a stand-alone system. From some web sources, it needs at least a cassette drive or the hard disk drives. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 13:53:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:53:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <4623A15D.21654.164F363C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 7 04:16:29 pm Message-ID: > I think that the early databooks also show how to make a parity > generator from a bipolar ROM. You can make any combinatorial logic circuit from a ROM. Using one for a parity tree seems ridiculously over-complex, though. You cna also do it with multiplexers. I think you can make an N+1 input parity circuit using an 2^N input mux and one NOT gate, and an N+2 input one using the 2^N input mux, 1 NOT gate and 1 XOR gate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:14:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:14:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> from "Wayne Smith" at Apr 16, 7 09:44:47 pm Message-ID: > > And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the There is a _very_ big difference between being unable to answer a question and not being bothered to answer a question. > list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the > question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I I think you're being unreasonable here. I don't know how many different models of computer have been made in the 'classic period', but it must be 10's of thousands at least. Do you seriosuly think that given a machine, at least one person here must have experience of it? > would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least > a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They > seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has > changed. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing - but it is change. I am not sure anything can, or should, be done about this. > At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list had > some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of > 50%. Actually, I suspect many people here have a CP/M machine. For all I don't much care for CP/M, I have many machines that can run it (including Epson laptops, an Epson QX10, DEC Rainbow, TRS-80 M4, and so on). However, that deosn't mean anyone has experience with a probably quite uncommon 3rd party ROM in one particular machine. TO go back to that 'linux question', it's a question that is not really linux speciific. The same question -- and answer -- applies to any unix system. Suppose, the CP/M question had been 'how to I convert an Intel HEX file to a CP/M binary'. I'll bet a dozen people would give the answer. Conversely, if you anked something less generic about a linux system (like : how do I modify the kernel to use a Catweasel card as its only floppy controller), you'd probably not get an answer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:22:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:22:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP "calculators" (was Re: World's first computer on ebay!) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 17, 7 09:52:41 am Message-ID: > > At 20:02 -0500 4/14/07, ard wrote: > >It puzzles me too. The connector in question is a normal, double-sided 25 > >pin (per side) 0.156" pitch edge connector. That's actually not a common > >size in the UK (0.156" pitch is not normally used over here), so it's > >probably somebody 'borrowed' it becuase it was the easiest way to get > >that sort of connector. > > Is there any chance that the connector was removed because it was > causing some sort of mechanical interference or stress on the board? > Just guessing wildly, but maybe, if it was otherwise > non-functional....? I cna't see how... The I/O backplane is a little board, about 5" square. It contains 4 edge connectors only (no other componets, not even decoupling capacitors), and has edge fingers along the bottom edge that fit into a simialr connector on the main backplane (the large PCB, also jsut connectors, that's flat in the vottom of the machine). In this cae, somebody careffully desoldered the second-from-top connector on the backoplane. I assume they needed the connector for soemthing -- otherwiswe qwhy not just whip out the complete I/O backplane if it was causing problems (the machine will run without it). I suppose a previous owner might have had a Peripheral Control ROM and used interfaces with this machine (and this was later separated from the machine), and that one connector on the I/O backplane might have become damaged and, say, been shorting a couple of lines together so it had to be removeed I guess I'll never know (and I don't really need to know -- I just need to get the replacement connector and solder it in). -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 15:52:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:52:16 -0600 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:15:03 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > On Apr 17, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > avoid "IT Equipment Express" > > Aren't those the guys who put a gazillion images in their > auctions, but never any pictures of the item they're selling? > *grumble* Yep. I modified all my ebay searches to exclude them from search results. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 16:01:40 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:01:40 -0500 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 In-Reply-To: References: <4624F446.40009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730704171401x2ff5561fmb3cb974d99ca377@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > avoid "IT Equipment Express" > > Aren't those the guys who put a gazillion images in their > auctions, but never any pictures of the item they're selling? > *grumble* > > -Dave Right, and usually zero description beyond an often-incorrect model or part #. But the boilerplate graphic layout is loaded with details on what they'll do if you don't pay :) From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 16:01:40 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:01:40 -0500 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 In-Reply-To: References: <4624F446.40009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730704171401x2ff5561fmb3cb974d99ca377@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > avoid "IT Equipment Express" > > Aren't those the guys who put a gazillion images in their > auctions, but never any pictures of the item they're selling? > *grumble* > > -Dave Right, and usually zero description beyond an often-incorrect model or part #. But the boilerplate graphic layout is loaded with details on what they'll do if you don't pay :) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 16:13:39 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:13:39 -0700 Subject: NCR 399 In-Reply-To: <268122.73039.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <462510B3.70602@pacbell.net> <268122.73039.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I saw the stuff on the web. I was just hoping someone here had actually used one and could give me an impression if it was worth saving. Looks like most people are interested in the RS computers and would pay the $75 to have the NCR trashed. It is a NCR accounting machine that ran leger cards. From the links I read it has core memory so it is worth saving. ( I think I just passed on one, ***). Considered computerized but not a general purpose computer. Sounds like if you are close by you could get it for cheap or hauling away after the TRS80 people. pick up their stuff. it is heavy and not very attractive (which is why I passed on the one I looked at. Didn't even look for a card cage...) I bet there are very few left. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From trag at io.com Tue Apr 17 16:40:31 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:40:31 -0500 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: <200704172035.l3HKYFEU080996@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704172035.l3HKYFEU080996@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:40:44 -0700 >From: Al Kossow >Here is the last working draft. > >http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/s1/s1-r17b.txt > Thank you for that. I'm not the original requester, but I imagine that many of use may have a use for that at some point. I put some specs for later SCSI standards up at and some specs for IDE as well. I'm not certain that they were the latest working drafts for each standard, but I collected them in 2004 and most of them are from the 90s, so I believe that they were the latest available. Jeff Walther From bob at jfcl.com Tue Apr 17 16:53:09 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:53:09 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric basedterminal) In-Reply-To: <581885.80596.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c7813a$cd2e2c30$0401010a@GIZMO> > Barry Watzman wrote: > The H-9 was flakey even when it was introduced. It was not a > reliable product, and will probably be difficult to get working. > Probably bad ICs or, worse, bad IC sockets. Dunno about the H-9, but the H-19 was a nice terminal. I have one hooked up to an H-11; works great. Bob Armstrong From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 17 18:17:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:17:10 -0600 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric basedterminal) In-Reply-To: <002101c7813a$cd2e2c30$0401010a@GIZMO> References: <002101c7813a$cd2e2c30$0401010a@GIZMO> Message-ID: <46255576.5040304@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert Armstrong wrote: > Dunno about the H-9, but the H-19 was a nice terminal. I have one hooked > up to an H-11; works great. Does anybody know how long they sold H-11's? I remember drooling over it when I saw the ad I think in BYTE, but I remember the H-8 had the write up but very little other than 8080/8086 ever seemed to have more than a passing glance with that magazine. > Bob Armstrong > > > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 17 17:22:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:22:11 -0700 Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: References: <4623A15D.21654.164F363C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 7 04:16:29 pm, Message-ID: <4624E623.20864.1B43D3A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2007 at 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think that the early databooks also show how to make a parity > > generator from a bipolar ROM. > > You can make any combinatorial logic circuit from a ROM. Using one for a > parity tree seems ridiculously over-complex, though. Motorola marketed the MC4041 as something very much like this; it was a pre-programmed version of an XC170 ROM. Of course, they were also suggesting that the same ROM be used as a BCD-to-7 segment decoder (MC4039) and a 3-bit-to-8 demux (MC4038). Note that I said "early" :) Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 17 17:30:03 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:30:03 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 spec Message-ID: <46254A6B.2040308@bitsavers.org> > I have a SCSI disk drive manual M2244S/SA/SB M2245S/SA/SB M2246S/SA/SB > which if I remember correctly has a lot of good info (not scanned yet) > nag me if needed looks like it would be a good thing to get a scan of what you have. turns out mine was a service manual for non-scsi drives. From rcini at optonline.net Tue Apr 17 17:48:33 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:48:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Tektronix plug-ins In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070417150501.0cecc268@localhost> Message-ID: Tom: Thanks a lot. I passed this on to Todd and I'm sure it'll help him immensely. He's using this scope to help him troubleshoot an Altair 8800 he's had for a while but did nothing with. Rich On 4/17/07 4:10 PM, "Tom Peters" wrote: > At 08:27 PM 4/16/2007 -0400, you wrote: >> All: >> >> I?m trying to help out a friend who isn?t particularly scope-savvy. He has >> a Tek 7406a scope and wants to know what plug-in he needs to do waveform >> capture. If anyone knows or can provide come guidance, please let me know. >> Thanks. > > I just repaired a Tek 7904 scope. I think most of the 7000 series plug-ins > are at least connector-compatible, and most of them work across the line. > The place to get the real answers is the Tekscopes yahoo group. They were > very helpful and Iwouldn't have tried this repair w/o tips and info from them. > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ > > Also, an absolutely great resource is http://bama.sbc.edu/tektroni.htm > where you can find most of the manuals for everything Tektronix made. > > Hope this helps. > > de N9QQB > > > > ----- > 744. [Faith] To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting > itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty... this > knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. --Albert > Einstein > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Tue Apr 17 17:49:47 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:49:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Tektronix plug-ins In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90704161819n2b571d5ye9ceb7124a66290b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I found out that it was a 7904, so I forwarded Tom's links too. Thanks again. On 4/16/07 9:19 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > On 4/16/07, Richard A. Cini wrote: >> All: >> >> I?m trying to help out a friend who isn?t particularly scope-savvy. He has >> a Tek 7406a scope and wants to know what plug-in he needs to do waveform >> capture. If anyone knows or can provide come guidance, please let me know. >> Thanks. >> > > Are you sure about that model number? > > http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Support/faq/history.html > http://www.caip.rutgers.edu/~kahrs/testeq/7000.html > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 17 17:56:36 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:56:36 +0100 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: References: <200704172035.l3HKYFEU080996@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <462550A4.4050608@dunnington.plus.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > I put some specs for later SCSI standards up at > and some specs for IDE as > well. I'm not certain that they were the latest working drafts for each > standard, but I collected them in 2004 and most of them are from the > 90s, so I believe that they were the latest available. The SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 specs you have are the same as the ones I've had for 10+ years, which I've been assured are the final versions (I did some SCSI work at university in the mid-90s). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Apr 17 08:28:56 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:28:56 -0700 Subject: How to Build a Clean Box In-Reply-To: <20070416160235.V44529@shell.lmi.net> References: <582023.33665.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200704162108.RAA04962@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070416160235.V44529@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4624CB98.3070200@garlic.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Isopropyl alcohol and propan-2-ol are just two different names for >> the same compound. (Isopropanol is a third.) >> > > "Rubbing alcohol" > > > which is 70% alcohol, 30% water. Yet More Names for isopropanol: IPA, iso. -- jd Egotist, n.: A person of low taste, more interested in himself than me. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 17 18:58:24 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:58:24 -0400 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <4622B4F4.22327.12B3B9FD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704160200.l3G1xjgj039918@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4622B4F4.22327.12B3B9FD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1176854305.1899.5.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 23:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Apr 2007 at 22:06, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor > > Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested > > silence. > > Going back and reviewing my record of his question, he specifically > asked if anyone has had any experience with the KayPLUS or Advent > Turbo ROMs. I would assume that the answer that might be inferred > would be "no". > > Given that the standard ROM works with his hard drive in his 10, I > don't know what anyone not having direct experience with the > aforementioned products *could* say. > > Some questions get dead silence. I've asked a few of those. I don't > let it upset me. That's a good approach, Chuck. <*> Heck, I own, and frequently use, a KayPro 10, but I just have the standard ROMs -- so I have no clue about the various upgrades. A simple question about Linux is probably within the purview of a good percentage of "real" computer users, but I expect that even most (of the few) KayPro 10 users, like myself, have the experience. Some questions are just easier, as you implied. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Apr 17 20:27:42 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NCR 399 In-Reply-To: <295198.49249.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <181852.45384.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > There's an NCR 399 computer on ebay I was thinking > of bidding on (I like desk sized computers!). Does > anyone know anything about them? It's item number: > 290105191721. I have a print set for this machine. -- Bill From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 17 20:39:12 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:39:12 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: <581885.80596.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <581885.80596.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462576C0.4040009@comcast.net> I have the H8/H9 too Would you remember of a Star Wars game that ran on this machine ? I saw it at the Personal Computing Expo in NYC back around '78/'79 I recall standing at booth with the Heathkit H8 but my memory might be fading. It was a unique game in that it allowed 4 players with joysticks to play against each other. The game was programmed with Deathstars that you controlled via the joysticks. It resembled the SpaceWar/ Asteroids style of game play. I've had no luck still in locating this anywhere online. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I got two H8's and one dual disk drive box. There are two CPU cards, three serial/cassette cards, a parallel I/O card, one disk controller card, four 16K memory cards, and about 50 floppies full of software. Nothing that looks like the CP/M cards though. > Also, an H19 terminal and H89 computer plus the Selectric. > > I got the H19 working and am currently bringing up the H8 power supplies. The Selectric is going to be the hardest to > restore though. > > Bob > > > > > > > From doug at stillhq.com Tue Apr 17 20:57:43 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:57:43 +1000 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! Pulsar Little Big Board - z80 CP/M 2.2 Bondewll 2 - z80 - CP/M 2.2 On the list of non CP/M systems: 3 x Apple II 5.25" disk systems 7 x Apple Mac systems (various) TRS-80 Model 1, 4, 4P 2 x Disk Smith System 80 1 Exidy Sourcerer 1 Energy Control Rockwell 65F11 (forth) system 1 Homebrew 65F12 system Amstrad CPC464 TI99/4A - No disk system though :-( Bucketloads of HP & TI Calculators No DEC Equipment - So can't help there (But I do have a SBC6120 PDP8 emulator.) Doug From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 17 21:12:03 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> from Doug Jackson at "Apr 18, 7 11:57:43 am" Message-ID: <200704180212.l3I2C3dj016506@floodgap.com> > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. I have a Commodore 128, which should qualify. However, I'll freely admit that it is rarely in its CP/M 3.0 capacity. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov ---------- From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 17 21:16:14 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:16:14 -0400 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46257F6E.1090506@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >If a 1 hour drive is considered "right next to a govliquidation site", >then yes ;-) > >I'm considering a drive up to an air force base on Montana. 8 hours >one way. > > Jerome Fine replies: Are you going to return the same day? I drove from Toronto to Montreal and return about 10 years ago to rescue an RK05 drive and some old packs. Those RT-11 distributions were made available on an RT-11 CD of old (prior to 1980) RT-11 distributions which included up to V05.03 of RT-11 from 1985. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 17 21:19:15 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:19:15 -0400 Subject: IDE Qbus controller (was TU-58s) In-Reply-To: <0JGL00KXWB6GN0E1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGL00KXWB6GN0E1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46258023.6040709@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >I have a few contollers (dual width) that are Both MFM and >SCSI that sound like those. > >I keep putting it on my list of projects to do a simple IDE >for QBUS. the design goals would be dual width, boot rom on >board and uses a 2.5" drive on the card. So far I've only >seen one Qbus IDE and it was lacking for software. Software >driver for that hardware is for RT11 alone is a bit of a >project as I'd need both the FB and SJ versions of the >driver. > Jerome Fine replies: Device drivers for RT-11 are identical for FB and SJ (or SB) monitors. The XM (RT11XZ monitors use the same device drivers as XM) device drives are a bit different. If you feel that MSCP emulation (probably OK now that the patent has expired) is too much trouble, then perhaps the HD(X).SYS protocol from E11 would be easier. I suspect that the protocol is so basic, the concept might be included within other interface such as for RK05 or even a floppy. Whatever interface protocol you use, if you want to extend the number of RT-11 devices that are allowed, I would be very interested in looking at allowing up to 256 devices using MSCP under RT-11. Naming might be the problem: D00: => D77: where the numbers seem to be octal allows up to 64 devices. Using D00: => DFF: where the second and third character seem to be hex would allow 256 devices. Alternatively, using D00: => D7V: where the third character has 32 values including 0 => 9 and A => V. The other possibility is to use multiple sets of hardware registers that look like multiple controllers under RT-11. And since even 256 RT-11 devices of 32 MBytes each covers only 8 GBytes, multiple controllers may be required in addition to allowing 65536 RT-11 partitions per drive by changing the table that holds the RT-11 partition number to a 16 bit word from an 8 bit byte. The later should not really be a problem since the unit number is already limited to a single byte even though a 16 bit word is available. Swapping the unit number word with the partition number byte should be reasonable and quite simple. Producing RT-11 bug fixes and enhancements is on my list of priorities. Y3K is at the top of the list. Does anyone else want to participate? There are only 92 more years left. If one additional word is allowed for the date, that would mean that 23 bits are available for the year. Likely that should be enough for a while since the CE use of 97 leap days out of 400 will certainly need to change before 8 million years. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From james.rice at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 21:25:33 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:25:33 -0600 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: I have a Commodore 128D that has only been run in CP/M 3.0 mode as I don't have a single piece of Commodore 128 or 64 software. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 21:53:42 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:53:42 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704180212.l3I2C3dj016506@floodgap.com> References: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <200704180212.l3I2C3dj016506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704171953l526a6037w40352beb58180bb0@mail.gmail.com> On 17/04/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I have a Commodore 128, which should qualify. However, I'll freely admit that > it is rarely in its CP/M 3.0 capacity. Ditto here, and it's actually quite nice with a 1581 drive. But I've only had it for a few weeks now (the 1581 that is; that gave me the capability to create disks using a modern Linux box). Definitively something to spend some more time playing with. I used to have a NorthStar Advantage (now with a more knowledgeable collector) and a DEC Rainbow (can't remember what happened to it - I think it went to a local (Montreal area)DEC collector; if you're on the list, gimme a shout :-) On the N*, I tried a bit of programming for a bit, but the Rainbow I used mostly to play Infocom games. To crank the thread into a slightly other direction: did anyone ever make a CP/M 68k for the Amiga? Knowing that the boot sequence is pretty simple - loading the first few kb from a floppy(*) - one could easily put a bootstrap in there and load a simple BIOS. Sure, the text needs to be drawn on a bitmap display, but even that is not unheard of in the CP/M world (did I mention I had an Advantage...) All the rest of the HW of the Amiga is pretty simple if you ignore the gee-wiz capabilities. Ok, ok, the floppy controller is funky (but flexible!!). (Hmmm, is it "that time of decade" again when a "here's what I got" thread appears on the list? It seemed more frequent when I joined the list for a few months in 97/98... I think it's fun to do - though my bragging rights have been severely reduced (**)- even though it has a slight feel of a pissing contest :-) (*) - Incompatible to the ROTW of course, but it could be initially created from AmigaOS. (**) - thus I'd rather brag about what I _used_ to have, and who it went to! Joe. ...must...resist...posting...list... From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 17 22:20:05 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:20:05 -0400 Subject: Heathkit Products (was: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: <200704172035.l3HKYFET080996@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002701c78168$75f71f20$6500a8c0@barry> Re: > Barry Watzman > [former Product Line Director for Heathkit computers and Zenith Data > Systems] Oh REALLY! 8-) Perhaps I can pick your brain for a moment. :) There was a neat Heath machine, I believe it was 8086 or 8088 based, that had a solderless breadboard built into it...I believe it was even connected to the bus. What would that have been? I'd like to find one, but it's been a difficult search not knowing what it was called." There were a couple of them, actually. Those were not my products, however. The products you refer to (the early ones were based on a Motorola 6800 series, if I recall, the later ones were based on the Intel 8088) were products from the educational products division of Heathkit, rather than the computer division. I don't remember the model number of the later one (the earlier one, based on the Motorola CPU, was the ET-3400 series), and the later one, I think it was the ET-100 (which was derived from and compatible with the Z-100 series ... would run 16-bit Z-100 software) wasn't made in particularly large numbers (also, an even more rare expansion accessory was required for full Z-100 and MS-DOS compatability). But they did exist, and you may find them on E-Bay from time to time. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Apr 17 22:50:59 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:50:59 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <462595A3.8030009@hawkmountain.net> Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M > systems. > > Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! > oh my... this will be quite incomplete... (except for CP/M) for CP/M, an ATR8000 (I used it mainly to interface drives to my Atari, but it is a CP/M machine), and I guess you could count the Commodore 128 ? For non CP/M (but I could probably run emulators on some of them :-) )... Atari: 400, 800, 800XL, 130XE Amiga: 1200HD w 68030-50 upgrade and SCSI Sun: 2/120, 3/80, 386i/150, 386i/250, 486i (not a typo), SS1, SS1+, SS2, IPX, Clasic, LX, SS10, SS20, U1, U2, U10, U60, 4/610MP (I'm sure I've missed something here) SGI: Indigo R3K, Indigo Elan R4K, Indy R5K, Indigo 2 R4400, Indigo 2 R10K Max Impact, Octane (R10K) DEC: Microvax II (in storage at a friend's place), DECstation 5000/240, Alpha (266mhz desktop... forget model #), Aspen Alpine 275XS, PDP-11/83, DEC Professional 350 (I think it is the 350), VAXstation 2000, VAXstation 3100 (2 different size chassis, different options) Mac: IIci, IIcx, IIfx, IIx, LC, LC2, LC3, Quadra 605, Quadra 650, Quadra 840AV, SE/30 (with TwinSpark adapter and 68030-40 cpu card), IIsi, Performa 630CD, Powermac 7100, Powermac 7500 (with G3 350 cpu), Powermac 9650 WGS (with G4 800 cpu), B&W G3 Rev2 (with G4 inside), G4 Gigabit Ethernet 2x500mhz Other: Altos 886 (w/no OS :-( ), Netwinder, Javastations PCs: too many to list and not worth listing (generally) I need to seriously cut back :-) Things I need: OS and hd formatter disks for Altos 886 PDP-8 (i, e, and f (with e panel) being the preferred ones) PDP-11 blinkin' lights edition :-) DecMate II or III SBC6120 more space and free power to run it all... oh... more time too :-( -- Curt From ingrammp at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 23:04:16 2007 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:04:16 -0700 Subject: source for developing nextstep applications book Message-ID: <4212C212-BD86-438C-8079-B543A9CF2C0B@earthlink.net> I recently picked up a copy of the book "Developing NextStep Applications" by Gene Backlin, but unfortunately, it did not come with the diskette containing the code. Is this available as a downloadable file anyplace ? ( ie... anyone have a copy ?? ) I've googled around and haven't had any luck, and the email address of the author... gbacklin at marizack.com just bounces... Thanks in advance Mike From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 23:06:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:06:14 -0500 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704172106x20fe60c7o11f75483f4579dd6@mail.gmail.com> I won't even try to make a "complete" list - I guess it might impress by sheer volume, but not many rarities. As for CP/M, no one has mentioned the Kaypro yet...I've got...hmm...4 or 5 of those (haven't touched them in a while,) an ATR 8000 (seperate CP/M machine that used an Atari 8-bit as host,) Commodore 128D that a couple people mentioned (made dad get one back in the day instead of a PC - good choice!) Used to have a couple DEC Rainbows - those ran CP/M (or could,) didn't they? -j From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 23:07:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:07:24 -0600 Subject: More on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:16:14 -0400. <46257F6E.1090506@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <46257F6E.1090506 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > >Richard wrote: > > >I'm considering a drive up to an air force base on Montana. 8 hours > >one way. > > Are you going to return the same day? [...] Probably not. There are some weird HP264x-like terminals up there: The details on these lots say that the items originate with Boeing, but damn if that doesn't look like s 264x keyboard and monitor with a modified enclosure. It looks like they either replaced the base enclosure with their own or put some sort of different front on it. At any rate, they look really weird, making them nice to collect :). If I bid on them and if I win them, then I would probably not do it all in one go. I'd probably combine it with a weekend of camping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 23:16:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:16:18 -0600 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:06:14 -0500. <51ea77730704172106x20fe60c7o11f75483f4579dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've got a Kaypro 4 which is CP/M based, IIRC. I've also got a Televideo TS-802 which is also CP/M based I think. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 18 00:18:04 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:18:04 -0800 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: At 11:57 AM +1000 4/18/07, Doug Jackson wrote: >Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. IMSAI-8080 Kaypro 2 I think I've still got a couple other systems such as a little big board. Commodore 128 I've booted CP/M-86 on a Pentium, and still have the HD somewhere. Don't expect any CP/M help from me though, that's not my area of expertise. I *might* be able to boot CP/M on one of my systems, but am not sure I remember how. :^) >No DEC Equipment - So can't help there (But I do have a SBC6120 PDP8 >emulator.) I think everyone around here probably has a fairly good idea as to how much DEC equipment I have, now double that and you might be closer to the truth. :^) What little time I have any more for Classic Computer related things typically deal with VMS, PDP-10's, or PDP-11's. I've also got got a good selection of Commodore and Apple systems. Where my collection has grown the most over the past few years has been Sun hardware. For a while it seemed like every time I turned around I was replacing my Solaris system with better hardware. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 23:34:42 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:34:42 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 spec In-Reply-To: References: <462503C1.5090904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/17/07, 9000 VAX wrote: > > On 4/17/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > any new news on that? > > > > > One possibility is that the controller did not place fast enough in SA > register the value CPU was looking for. I need several days to calm down > before I look at this problem again. Well, my guess is conformed. I observed the QBUS with a logic analyzer and it seemed the VMS 6.1 installer issued IPW to reset the controller, and after it read SAR=0x0b40, it wrote SAW=0xa4ff. Then it read SA port at 12.2ms after that, then again at 12.8ms as a second chance, expecting 0x10a4, before it issued IPW again at 12.88ms. My controller had not updated SAR before the second chance. The fix seems to be easy. I just need to make sure the controller is able to update the SAR register quickly. Maybe it is as simple as removing some printf()'s. vax, 9000 From ingrammp at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 23:36:42 2007 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:36:42 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: This is an interesting survey Let's see.... for CP/M systems.. Heath/Zenith PC running CP/M86 Altos 586 running MP/M 86 Apple Softcard Z80 Cpm 2.2 Apple ALS CpmCard CPM 3.0 Could do multi-user stuff in support of a small office ( a beauty college ) back in 1982-3 on the Altos, with one fellow running Wordstar, someone else doing data entry in DbaseII, and someone else doing reports from another DBase II user account... amazing how much work you could get out of 256Kbytes of memory and a 40Mbyte disk and a bunch of Televideo terminals, with Dbase development being done on the Apple... ah the good old days ! Mike On Apr 17, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M > systems. > > Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! > > Pulsar Little Big Board - z80 CP/M 2.2 > Bondewll 2 - z80 - CP/M 2.2 > > On the list of non CP/M systems: > > 3 x Apple II 5.25" disk systems > 7 x Apple Mac systems (various) > > TRS-80 Model 1, 4, 4P > 2 x Disk Smith System 80 > 1 Exidy Sourcerer > > 1 Energy Control Rockwell 65F11 (forth) system > 1 Homebrew 65F12 system > > Amstrad CPC464 > > TI99/4A - No disk system though :-( > > Bucketloads of HP & TI Calculators > > No DEC Equipment - So can't help there (But I do have a SBC6120 > PDP8 emulator.) > > > Doug > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 17 23:41:04 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:41:04 -0400 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4625A160.3070905@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Someone wrote... > >>> At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list had >>> some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of >>> 50%. > > I will make my own generalization - that the above is probably not > correct ;) Oh, I forgot - I have an Altos 580-15 and a Kaypro II, so I'm on the "owns one" side. Doc From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Apr 17 23:43:29 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:43:29 +0200 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <1176854305.1899.5.camel@linux.site> References: <200704160200.l3G1xjgj039918@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <002c01c77fe5$0d0ad300$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4622B4F4.22327.12B3B9FD@cclist.sydex.com> <1176854305.1899.5.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4625A1F1.3000403@bluewin.ch> Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 23:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >> On 15 Apr 2007 at 22:06, Wayne Smith wrote: >> >>> But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like poor >>> Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is disinterested >>> silence. >> Going back and reviewing my record of his question, he specifically >> asked if anyone has had any experience with the KayPLUS or Advent >> Turbo ROMs. I would assume that the answer that might be inferred >> would be "no". I have a Kaypro 10 with a Turborom. I got the Turborom stuff from Don Maslin just 2 weeks before he passed away. Now what was the question again ? And sometimes you just do not have any time for the hobby, so if a question is unanswered, just try again later. Jos Dreesen From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 19:46:18 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric basedterminal) In-Reply-To: <46255576.5040304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <002101c7813a$cd2e2c30$0401010a@GIZMO> <46255576.5040304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2007, woodelf wrote: > Robert Armstrong wrote: > >> Dunno about the H-9, but the H-19 was a nice terminal. I have one hooked >> up to an H-11; works great. > > Does anybody know how long they sold H-11's? > I remember drooling over it when I saw the ad I think in BYTE, > but I remember the H-8 had the write up but very little other > than 8080/8086 ever seemed to have more than a passing glance > with that magazine. On that subject, what operating systems did the H-11 support? I have one sitting in my collection, complete with paper-tape reader and 8" disk drives. Never had the space to set it up until recently. Steve -- From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Apr 17 21:20:12 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:20:12 -0700 Subject: Looking for Northstar Horizon double-density floppy controller Message-ID: <4625805C.1040006@msu.edu> The subject says it all -- acquired a complete Northstar Horizon sans floppy controller a long time ago. I'd love to get this machine running, it's been sitting around dormant for so long, and it's basically useless without a floppy controller. If you have one you're willing to sell/trade for, let me know. Also looking for software if anyone can provide copies -- I have the HD-5 controller/drive so a copy of HDOS would be fun to play around with. CP/M would be nifty as well... As always, thanks in advance... Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 01:43:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:43:50 -0500 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric basedterminal) In-Reply-To: References: <002101c7813a$cd2e2c30$0401010a@GIZMO> <46255576.5040304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/17/07, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On that subject, what operating systems did the H-11 support? I have one > sitting in my collection, complete with paper-tape reader and 8" disk > drives. Never had the space to set it up until recently. Mine runs RT-11, but since it's "just" a PDP-11, it'll run any -11 OS that your CPU supports. I think the original H-11 processor was an LSI-11 (11/03), but I'm not sure since mine came to me with a KDF11 (11/23) and was brutally extended to a hex-width backplane (AB-AB-CD) to accommodate an RLV11. I have since removed the, um, customization, and it now fits inside its original enclosure, but I've never gotten the H27 floppies to work. It works fine with a DEC RXV11 and RX01, but not the original Heath controller. -ethan From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 03:01:22 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:01:22 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. > > Lets do a quick survey -------- What I have at the moment..... Xerox 820 II in original boxes. (My third computer but not the original one) Paradise lunchbox DEC Rainbow (my second computer but not the original one) Intel IPDS Intel development system 800 wi 8080 Multibus 1 CPU Kaypro II, 4 & 10 Osbourne (powered this up on CPM just the other day) Bondwell Lugable (unfortunately need the boot disk for this) IMS 4 slot S100 Tandy TRS Model II A 4 user MPM machine I can't remember Mindset And I am sure there are more..... -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dmabry at mich.com Wed Apr 18 03:11:05 2007 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:11:05 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4625D299.1030401@mich.com> Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M > systems. My CP/M systems are the following: Intel Series II <-- boots the CP/M diskettes right out of the box from Digital Research Intel iPDS I have implemented CP/M Plus on both systems as well. Dave Mabry From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 18 03:14:11 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. [snip] > No DEC Equipment - So can't help there (But I do have a SBC6120 PDP8 > emulator.) That's real hardware, not an emulator. I have: Kaypro II Osborne Executive (CRT circuitry is dead) P112 IMSAI 8080 I have a few Morrow MD3s, a Morrow S100 chassis, an XOR, a Xerox 802 (or whatever it's called), assorted loose S100 backplanes, assorted S100 cards. These will be put on vintagecomputermarketplace and/or Ebay when I get the time. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 18 07:08:51 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:08:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for Northstar Horizon double-density floppy controller In-Reply-To: <4625805C.1040006@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200704181110.l3IBAQ6t005965@hosting.monisys.ca> > The subject says it all -- acquired a complete Northstar Horizon sans > floppy controller a long time ago. I'd love to get this machine > running, it's been sitting around dormant for so long, and it's > basically useless without a floppy controller. > > If you have one you're willing to sell/trade for, let me know. > > Also looking for software if anyone can provide copies -- I have the > HD-5 controller/drive so a copy of HDOS would be fun to play around > with. CP/M would be nifty as well... If you do manage to locate a controller, I have a ton of N* software images up on my site, N*DOS, CP/M, UCSD Pascal, applications etc. Recreating them is a bit tricky as you will need to use the Horizon itself - Sunce it has no front panel you will need to install a ROM to bootstrap the transfer client - the N* CPU has space for a 1K ROM which is adaquate (If you can't program 2708s you can make an adapter to fit a more modern device). I can provide you with a very basic RAMless 8080 monitor that fits in about 500 bytes (handy if you don't know that your RAM/rest of system is working) - And you can load the client with it. Once you get the first boot disk made you are set. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 18 07:04:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:04:09 -0500 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200704181110.l3IBAQ6r005965@hosting.monisys.ca> > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. > > Lets do a quick survey Way too many to list (or even remember), but you can see a relatively up to date list (and photos etc) at: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 06:37:36 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:37:36 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's In-Reply-To: <200704180652.l3I6pwwF094433@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002e01c781ad$f6d15df0$6500a8c0@barry> In article <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0 at barry>, "Barry Watzman" writes: > [...] the "CP/M Card" (a > tiny small card, only about 3 inches wide, that allows the computer to > run CP/M ... I think that the original name was "extended > configuration card" or something like that). Do you mean this? Ebay item 200100612888 Yes, I believe that is of those (can't tell with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure). It's necessary to run CP/M. Normally the H-8's memory map has ROM in low memory (8K, I think). This card allows switching between this "standard" (for the H-8) configuration and a 64K all-RAM configuration. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Apr 18 06:43:18 2007 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:43:18 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704181110.l3IBAQ6r005965@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200704181110.l3IBAQ6r005965@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <006901c781ae$c2890240$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who > have CP/M systems. > > > > Lets do a quick survey > > Way too many to list (or even remember), but you can see a > relatively up to date list (and photos etc) at: Damn, I was hoping to have the only Epson PX-8; as far as I know the only CP/M system to do (micro)cassette tapes. I also have an Osborne-1, and a C128 (which I think I have CP/M disks for); and IIRC used to have a set of CP/M disks for an Acorn Master - or was that GEM, can't remember now. Oh, and I've got a Sharp MZ-80B which I believe will run CP/M. Shame I've not the foggiest how to use it. I can get Wordstar running on one of the PX-8s, but only because it's in ROM. I can do DIR and run a program - does it do anything else? Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/765 - Release Date: 17/04/2007 17:20 From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 06:42:57 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:42:57 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's In-Reply-To: <200704180652.l3I6pwwF094433@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002f01c781ae$b5a301c0$6500a8c0@barry> Robert Armstrong wrote: > Dunno about the H-9, but the H-19 was a nice terminal. I have one > hooked up to an H-11; works great. Does anybody know how long they sold H-11's? I remember drooling over it when I saw the ad I think in BYTE, but I remember the H-8 had the write up but very little other than 8080/8086 ever seemed to have more than a passing glance with that magazine. > Bob Armstrong The H-11 was offered from 1977 (when Heath entered the computer business) until about 1981 or 1982 ... I don't remember the exact date. While the hardware was nice if you liked DEC architecture (it was just a standard LSI-11 made by DEC), it was a terrible system for a computer hobbyist at the time. There was very little software, and both the hardware and the software was expensive. Although I didn't introduce the H-11 and by the time I took over was only trying to sell off our inventory, I felt guilty for offering the system, because I knew that almost everyone who bought it was making a several thousand (1970's) dollar mistake. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 06:53:29 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:53:29 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H-19 In-Reply-To: <200704180652.l3I6pwwF094433@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003001c781b0$2e8ae430$6500a8c0@barry> > RE: Dunno about the H-9, but the H-19 was a nice terminal. I have one > hooked up to an H-11; works great. > > Bob Armstrong > The H-19 was a great terminal. It was a truly great product. Great functionality, solid and reliable, and economical. And Heathkit and Zenith sold a ton of them, tens of thousands (might have even gotten up over 100,000). The H-89 (and all of its' variants) was just an H-19 with a single board Z-80 computer stuffed into the same cabinet. There were actually two major variants of the H-19, the original one and the later one that was re-engineered to meet FCC Class "B" RFI reduction approval. They are functionally the same, and the overall circuitry and firmware are more or less the same, but there are some changes internally (fairly major, actually). You can tell the later one because there is a circuit card on the CRT socket; on the early one, the CRT socket was just a CRT socket with wires running to the deflection board assembly. From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 07:12:42 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 05:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <171963.15798.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the > list who have CP/M systems. DEC VT-180 - my one and only CP/M system. -Dave From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 18 07:34:48 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:34:48 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <200704181234.l3ICYqGI001036@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:57:43 +1000, Doug Jackson wrote: >Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. SD Systems SD-200 Several Z-100's and a Memorite later Bob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 07:45:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:45:46 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's In-Reply-To: <002f01c781ae$b5a301c0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200704180652.l3I6pwwF094433@dewey.classiccmp.org> <002f01c781ae$b5a301c0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On 4/18/07, Barry Watzman wrote: > The H-11 was offered from 1977 (when Heath entered the computer business) > until about 1981 or 1982 ... Although I didn't introduce the H-11 and by the > time I took over was only trying to sell off our inventory, I felt guilty > for offering the system, because I knew that almost everyone who bought it > was making a several thousand (1970's) dollar mistake. My boss of 10 years ago would be one of the customers who was _not_ making a mistake... he was a PDP-11 consultant who started his own business (that went under in 1988 when our primary customer decided to not pay 30K in outstanding invoices and hire our engineers out from under us, but that's a different story). He bought an H-11 (and hacked it up enough to use an RLV11) rather than go to DEC for a "real" PDP-11. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but he did save a few thousand dollars by going with the H-11. I think most of your former H-11 customers were probably thinking the same thing - buy a full-on PDP-11 from DEC for several thousand, or buy an H-11 for a smaller number of thousand, then add whatever DEC cards were needed to get to the desired configuration. By the time I started working at that company in 1986 or 1987, I had already amassed a bunch of PDP-8 gear because it was "so last week". To do some contract work for this aforementioned company, about five years or so after Heath stopped selling the H-11, I picked up a used PDP-11/23 in a BA-11 chassis w/CD slots (BA-11N?) so I could run an RLV11 myself, and migrate data/programs to and from the client site. The BA-11N w/KDF11 (11/23 CPU), 64KB of MSV11-DD (M8044) memory, DLV11J (quad serial), RXV11 (RX01 8" floppy controller), an LPV11 (line printer interface for an LA180 I already had), and a BDV-11 bootstrap/terminator card was $300. The RLV11 was another $100 from Newman Computer Exchange or another company just like them. The 5MB RL01 drive came over from my PDP-8/a, the RL02 was on loan from my boss... so for $400, I was in business. A far cry from the thousands he spent on his H-11 a few years earlier, but my rig would *not* have been cheap in 1981. It was a good, solid RT-11 system that I still have set up in about the same configuration (just a bit more memory now, on a manually-upgraded 22-bit backplane). That H-11 coincidentally happens to be the most recently used DEC system in my collection. I'm still trying to get that H27 drive working. I should check bitsavers for schematics for the Qbus floppy card. The card itself works to a point - if I install it in a minimal system (CPU, serial, RAM, boot/terminator), I can get the system to read in the boot sector from the floppy, but it hangs about the time RT-11 is running far enough to turn the interrupts on. I suppose I should also track down an H-11 configuration guide or module list or installation docs or whatever it came with to ensure I have a happy set of cards set to happy values. I've checked each chip on the H-27 interface, so I'm reasonably certain it's not a simple hardware problem; I'm not so convinced it isn't a jumper or other configuration problem. Mine came to me with only the enclosure and backplane being native Heathkit. The rest was 100% DEC (the floppy was never attached while I worked at that company). If anyone has any H-11 "getting started" docs, I'd appreciate a copy. Thanks, -ethan From james.rice at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 07:46:20 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:46:20 -0600 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: My non-CP/M equipment is primarily workstations. I'm not into big iron or DEC's. The largest system I own is a single rack O200 consisting of two dual R10K Origin 200's, a X-Box expansion chassis and four Andataco RAID chassis. A link to a fairly current collection listing is: http://www.blackcube.org/collectionlisting.html -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 07:57:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:57:57 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On 4/18/07, David Griffith wrote: > I have... an XOR That's one of the CP/M systems I have, along with a Kaypro 2, a Commodore 128 (for which I do have CP/M but haven't done much with). I think I can also count my TRS-80 Model III, but I'm much more likely to run NEWDOS or something similar than CP/M on it. The XOR is my only 8" drive CP/M system; it's also my only S-100 system. I couldn't afford that stuff when it was newer, so I never developed a deep understanding or great fondness for it. I was thoroughly immersed in Commodores back in that era. The last time I ran a CP/M program as a productive exercise (as opposed to hardware debugging and checkout) wasn't even under CP/M, it was under MS-DOS with a CP/M emulator, over 15 years ago. I even replaced my 8088 with an NEC V20 chip to run CP/M programs faster. It was all so I could play Scott Adams adventures on my PeeCee Clone, long before ScottFree and other more modern Adventure International game engines. I don't have anything against CP/M; I just couldn't afford the platform when it was the big thing, and all the free computers I had access to were Commodores, Apples, or TRS-80s. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 18 08:13:05 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <171963.15798.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <171963.15798.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the > list who have CP/M systems. Primary CP/M systems: Kaypro 2, 2X, 4/84, 4 Plus 88, 10 Osborne 1, 1a, Executive Systems capable of running CP/M: TRS-80 Model II, 4, 4P Apple IIe with ALS Z-Engine or Microsoft Softcard Z80A Commodore 128 Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M almost exclusively on my TRS-80 Model 4. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 18 08:24:43 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:24:43 -0600 Subject: H9 Terminal (was: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric basedterminal)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:43:50 -0500. Message-ID: I recently acquired an H9 terminal from ebay from the original owner. It had gone through a basement flood and had gotten wet and is in need of repair in order to be functional again. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the H9 was kinda "junky". What should I look out for when repairing it? Replacing capacitors or is there something more to it than that? The original owner reported that it was last known to be working before their basement flooded. (The unit was unplugged when the flood occurred.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 08:45:17 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:45:17 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers Message-ID: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> Anybody happen to have a Rasterops archive for Mac Nubus cards? I have a few older cards (Mediatime, 24stv, 24si, Acellerator II, etc) and was looking for drivers. These seem to be harder to find then the common Supermac and Radius stuff. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Apr 18 09:09:45 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but that's irrelevant to CP/M-80). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 18 09:29:01 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:29:01 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: Hi I have a couple Kaypro's and IMSAI running regular CP/M. I have a Olivetti M20 running CP/M-8000 with a Z8001 processor. I have a Nicolet 1080 running Demon-IIf ( 8 inch single sided ) I have H89 and H8 running Heathkit HDOS ( don't have the CPM card for H8 ) I have a SYM1 board with a second source disk interface that I've not tried yet. I have a NC4000 with a simple disk system I wrote myself for floppy and hard drive. I have a Poly 8813 running System88 and........... Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Join the i?m Initiative. Help make a difference today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07 From bob at jfcl.com Wed Apr 18 09:45:20 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:45:20 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectricbasedterminal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002401c781c8$30dc6160$0401010a@GIZMO> >Steven Hirsch [snhirsch at gmail.com] wrote: > On that subject, what operating systems did the H-11 support? Officially, it only ran HT-11, the crippled version of RT-11 that Heath was allowed to sell. Unofficially it runs real RT11 perfectly well, as long as you remember to set your [W]H-27s to RX01 mode. As far as paper tape goes, it'd probably run any of the stand alone paper tape software that ran on a 11/03. The processor card in the H-11 was a real 11/03 from DEC; it was shipped fully assembled and you didn't get to put that card together. All the peripherals were Heath designed, but they were software compatible with the DEC versions. As far as the software knows, it's just another 11/03 system. Bob From bob at jfcl.com Wed Apr 18 09:56:59 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:56:59 -0700 Subject: H-11 serial and parallel cards (was RE: Heathkit H8's & H9's ...) In-Reply-To: <46255576.5040304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002601c781c9$d3cc7530$0401010a@GIZMO> This reminds me - I have an extra genuine Heath H-11 serial card that I'd love to swap for one of the Heath parallel interface cards, if anybody is interested. Bob From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 18 11:08:54 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:08:54 -0800 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <006901c781ae$c2890240$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200704181110.l3IBAQ6r005965@hosting.monisys.ca> <006901c781ae$c2890240$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: At 12:43 PM +0100 4/18/07, Ade Vickers wrote: >Damn, I was hoping to have the only Epson PX-8; as far as I know the only >CP/M system to do (micro)cassette tapes. I'm afraid not, that's one of (at least) two systems that I forgot I have, the other is the DEC Rainbow. >Shame I've not the foggiest how to use it. I can get Wordstar running on one >of the PX-8s, but only because it's in ROM. I can do DIR and run a program - >does it do anything else? No clue, I don't think I even tried to power it on. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From josefcub at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 10:23:42 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:23:42 -0500 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920704180823n627f056axfb48b24cc9018e7f@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/07, Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. > > Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! > Hmm, sadly all I've got left in the CP/M arena are a pair of Epson PX-8s (both ROM revisions)... I wish I'd still had my Kaypro, C128, or other CP/M system. It's an OS I can really get into for some reason. ;-) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Apr 18 10:31:27 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:31:27 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <9e2403920704180823n627f056axfb48b24cc9018e7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <9e2403920704180823n627f056axfb48b24cc9018e7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <202B70AD-3F75-4F5D-8BE9-39829D73B4B9@xlisper.com> On Apr 18, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Josef Chessor wrote: > Hmm, sadly all I've got left in the CP/M arena are a pair of Epson > PX-8s (both ROM revisions)... I have two as well. What are the different ROM revisions? How can I tell which revision I have in each of my machines? Thanks, David From bob at jfcl.com Wed Apr 18 10:46:02 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:46:02 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's Message-ID: <002901c781d0$ae1b8bd0$0401010a@GIZMO> >Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: >[W]H-27 problems... >I can get the system to read in the boot sector from the floppy, >but it hangs about the time RT-11 is running far enough to >turn the interrupts on. Dumb question - you _do_ have the RX-01/Extended switch set to RX-01, right? Extended mode isn't DEC compatible and the RT11 driver won't work with it. Bob From stekster at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 11:21:50 2007 From: stekster at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:21:50 -0700 Subject: Looking for Northstar Horizon double-density floppy controller In-Reply-To: <200704180652.l3I6pwwE094433@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000701c781d5$ac689260$650fa8c0@Mycroft> I know I have an extra - finding it is another question. Contact me off list and I will start a search. I can also lend you some boot disks and have extra hard-sectored disks, and can send you pdf docs if you need them. Also check out Dave Dunfield's site http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html if you haven't already for N* imagedisks. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 11:24:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:24:25 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com> I assume that by "CP/M" we're talking about 8-bit CP/M and not CP/M 68K or CP/M-86. I've got a few boxes, including Durango 800 and 900 series (which also run MP/M) as well as a couple of S-100 boxes and probably some things I've forgotten about. I'm not a collector; these are things I've just accumulated over the years. I still use the occasional CP/M program (under emulation) run as part of my regular development toolset. Cheers, Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 18 12:02:40 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:02:40 -0800 Subject: CP/M stuff In-Reply-To: <4625A160.3070905@mdrconsult.com> References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4625A160.3070905@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46264F30.7010603@socal.rr.com> I have a small collection of CP/M stuff, books, software, and dos cards for Apple systems, maybe other stuff I don't know I have. Once my sorting and anti squirreling away gets going I plan to list some of the books I have extra copies etc. of. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 06:04:20 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:04:20 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment Message-ID: <0JGO00DI6XDJ7Z53@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quick survey on equipment > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:18:04 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 11:57 AM +1000 4/18/07, Doug Jackson wrote: >>Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. I have a few peices mostly cp/m based but others are there. Allison Collection of operational hardware: PDP-8 based machines: ==================== PDP-8f 2 Decmate-IIIs OS/278 Intersil sampler (6100 chipset) 6120 based board, homebrew PDP-11 based machines: ===================== 1 LSI-11/03 rx02 2 PDP11/23 BA11S boxes, various hardware configs 1 pdp11/73 RACK SYSTEM (RX02, RD52, RX33, RL02). BA11va with 11/23 +tu58 PDT11/130 11/03 with tu58 dectapeII Homebrew design using T-11 (the 40pin PDP11) Rt-11, XXDP-11 and unix V6 VAX based machines: =================== Microvax-II (ba23 based) Microvax-II/GPX (Ba123 based, SCSI disks) 3 Microvax2000 all with RD53 or 54 drives, one with ultrix 2 Microvax3100/m76/gpx 3 Microvax3100/server (not M10e) VMSv5.4-4,V5.54, V7.2, Ultrix 4.2 CPM speaking machines: ====================== S100 subgroup ------------- Altair8800(pre-A) Built jan 1975 SN200! Altair 8800B-T complete, factory 1978 2 Northstar horizon, CP/M, NS*dos, hard disk (one I built in '77) CCS-2200 CP/M2.2 Compupro full boat with 8085/8088 card and MPX-1 (CCPM) Netronics 8085 w/VDM1 SBC/bounded systems: -------------------- AmproLB+ CMOS modded and running with 45mb 3.5" SCSI SB180 with SCSI adaptor, adptec scsi bridge and 20mb CPM2.2 3 Visual technolgies 1050, CPM-3 two with outboard 10mb SCSI disk Kaypro 4/84 w/handyman and Advent turborom+personality card Kaypro II complete 1 Vt180 complete 2 Vt180 CP/M board built up as standalone one modded for 6mhz 1 Vt185 Thats a Vt125 + Vt180. Osborne 1 Epson PX-8 with 120k ram wedge and 300bd modem wedge Other buses (not s100): ----------------------- NS* Advantage (hard disk) 2 Hurikon Z80 Multibus system CP/M2.2 MISC Single board computers and systems: ======================================= Motorola 6800D1 SBC with TBX National SC/MP board National Nibble basic [sc/mpII] SBC NEC TK80A 8080a SBC with protocard KIM-1 BCC180 Z180 controller 5 8085 SBC 4krom, 2kram, 3 8251 serial Cosmac ELF orgional (built back in '78) COSMAC ELF (TMSI TM100) expanded elf EELF (Spare Time Gizmos Embedded elf) DEC ADVICE, VAX chipset on an SBC for in circuit emulation. IMSAI IMP48 (8035 based SBC) Homebrew 8039 based SBC (switches and leds pannel!) Prompt-48 804x development tool/system NEC EVAkit-48 8048/9 development system/board 2 TI99A (with disks and SW) Technico superstarter system with assembler roms (TI9900) Tandy M100 portable Commodore 128, I keep forgetting that one.. H19 terminal Vt100/125 terminal Vt1200 Xterminal 3 Vt320 terminal White, amber and green! Vt340 Color Terminal VK170 Vt52 on a dual width card PC stuff of interest, generally I dont bother but these are interesting. Intel Inboard386(upgrades an XT to 386/16 with 1.2mb ram) Trackstar 128 (dual 6502 for ISA PC improvement) AST sixpack pro Tandy 1000hx (V20) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 06:50:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:50:04 -0400 Subject: IDE Qbus controller (was TU-58s) Message-ID: <0JGO00MZ4ZHRLE23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: IDE Qbus controller (was TU-58s) > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:19:15 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >>I have a few contollers (dual width) that are Both MFM and >>SCSI that sound like those. >> >>I keep putting it on my list of projects to do a simple IDE >>for QBUS. the design goals would be dual width, boot rom on >>board and uses a 2.5" drive on the card. So far I've only >>seen one Qbus IDE and it was lacking for software. Software >>driver for that hardware is for RT11 alone is a bit of a >>project as I'd need both the FB and SJ versions of the >>driver. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >Device drivers for RT-11 are identical for FB and SJ >(or SB) monitors. The XM (RT11XZ monitors use the same >device drivers as XM) device drives are a bit different. I know that. That was just a typo. >If you feel that MSCP emulation (probably OK now that >the patent has expired) is too much trouble, then >perhaps the HD(X).SYS protocol from E11 would be >easier. I suspect that the protocol is so basic, >the concept might be included within other interface >such as for RK05 or even a floppy. Devices that arent MSCP like DD(tu58), DK(RX02), DY(RX02), DL(RL02) might make for examples. I'm fortunate to have the uncut sources on RL02. Unfortunately I'm not an experienced PDP-11 programmer. The upside is I have the RT-11 docset. >Whatever interface protocol you use, if you want to >extend the number of RT-11 devices that are allowed, >I would be very interested in looking at allowing >up to 256 devices using MSCP under RT-11. Naming >might be the problem: D00: => D77: where the >numbers seem to be octal allows up to 64 devices. >Using D00: => DFF: where the second and third character >seem to be hex would allow 256 devices. Alternatively, >using D00: => D7V: where the third character has >32 values including 0 => 9 and A => V. Thats beyond me. >The other possibility is to use multiple sets of >hardware registers that look like multiple controllers >under RT-11. And since even 256 RT-11 devices of >32 MBytes each covers only 8 GBytes, multiple controllers >may be required in addition to allowing 65536 RT-11 >partitions per drive by changing the table that >holds the RT-11 partition number to a 16 bit word >from an 8 bit byte. The later should not really >be a problem since the unit number is already limited >to a single byte even though a 16 bit word is available. >Swapping the unit number word with the partition >number byte should be reasonable and quite simple. > >Producing RT-11 bug fixes and enhancements is on >my list of priorities. Y3K is at the top of the >list. Does anyone else want to participate? There >are only 92 more years left. If one additional >word is allowed for the date, that would mean that >23 bits are available for the year. Likely that >should be enough for a while since the CE use of >97 leap days out of 400 will certainly need to >change before 8 million years. I should live so long.;) Allison From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Apr 18 09:33:58 2007 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:33:58 -0400 Subject: DEC/VMS manuals ("gray wall") available, any interest? Message-ID: <46262C56.6060200@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi folks, long time no chat with you. Just quickly, we're moving and throwing out stuff you can't think fast enough. Urgently they will toss DEC/VMS manuals from our "gray walls". They may be selective about what to keep. Is there any interest at all in preserving those? Please reply personally to me and cc the address shown below (preserve this subject line) if you are interested. This is going to happen in a matter of days, so time is of the essence. regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow at regenstrief.org Associate Professor Indiana University School of Informatics Regenstrief Institute, Inc. Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From info at harrells.net Wed Apr 18 11:15:46 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:15:46 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704171953l526a6037w40352beb58180bb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <200704180212.l3I2C3dj016506@floodgap.com> <4affc5e0704171953l526a6037w40352beb58180bb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46264432.40602@harrells.net> I have a Northstar Horizon with CP/M 2.2 and dual floppies Imsai with 64k and Shugart 8" DSDD and 5 1/4 drives CCS system with 64k and 8" floppies Cromemco Z2 with 5 1/4 drives and cdos/cromix plus Cromemco 250 that boots Cromix plus but it is under development now. It may count has it has a CP/M emulator. Kaypro 10 with a new drive being formatted now which I hope will work > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 12:22:44 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:22:44 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 44, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: <200704181703.l3IH2tf2002536@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006501c781de$2dbf67f0$6500a8c0@barry> > On Tue, 17 Apr 2007, woodelf wrote: > > On that subject, what operating systems did the H-11 support? I have > one sitting in my collection, complete with paper-tape reader and 8" > disk drives. Never had the space to set it up until recently. > >Steve > The only Heath disk operating system offered by Heath for the H-11 was HT-11, which was a very slightly modified (dumbed down) version of DEC's RT-11. The only disk system offered by Heath was the H-27, dual 8" [Memorex SSSD] drives. Many customers wanted to buy genuine DEC RT-11, which would run on the H-11/H-27, but it was about $2,500 (and the differences from HT-11 to RT-11 were very, very few). HT-11 was "cheap", but it would only run on the H-27, it would not work on a non-Heathkit DEC floppy disk system. The H-27 had two modes, "Heath" and "DEC", to prevent HT-11 from being used on non-Heath H-11's. I don't recall if there was paper tape software for the H-11 or not (I think that there was), but even if there was, no one used it very much. The Heath paper tape reader, the H-10, was a mechanically unreliable nightmare (mostly the punch, the reader worked ok), but they are worth a lot of money today, I've seen them go on E-Bay for over $600. HT-11/RT-11 was no prize; it was a low level contiguous file operating system, less sophisticated even than CP/M, although it may have had some better utilities (and, for those to whom it mattered, it was of course "more DEC-like"). The H-27 was just two standard 8" drives in a case with a Z-80 based intelligent controller (WD1771 disk controller chip) that talked to the H-11 using what we would now call a "host adapter" over a proprietary bi-directional parallel port. The interface and command set wasn't any of the standards for this type of configuration (e.g. it wasn't SASI or SCSI), but it used that type of architecture. For a number of years I used an H-27 on an S-100 system with a Tarbell controller by simply disconnecting the internal intelligent controller and running a 50-pin cable direct to the two Memorex drives. They were Shugart SA-801 compatible, so it was an easy configuration to use, the H-27 then being just two drives, a power supply and a cabinet. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 18 12:28:41 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:28:41 -0500 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm not a collector; these are things I've just accumulated over the years. I'm sure a lot of us say that :-) I've got a few odds and ends here - Research Machines (CP/M and MP/M "natively"), Acorn (CP/M via Z80 coprocessor), Apple (CP/M via Z80 coprocessor), Torch (CP/N - sort of CP/M with various non-standard bits). I doubt there's any shortage of CP/M capable hardware owned by people on the list - there's just a shortage of CP/M "hardcore" knowledge, because the systems don't get used often enough for people to remember the real nuts and bolts. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 18 12:33:08 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TONIGHT: 5.25" or 8" floppy disk urgently needed in Austin, TX Message-ID: I got a call from Lucy Frost of Granite House (a video production company) in Austin just now. She's desperately in need of a 5.25" or 8" floppy disk for a video shoot they are doing tonight. They are doing a spoof infomercial for a client around the Btrieve software product. Yes, that Btrieve...it's still being published by a company called Pervasive Software. Anyway, if you can help (Jim Battle?) then please contact her directly: Lucy Frost 512/844-2520 cell 512/481-1300 office lucy at granitehouse.com She tells me they Buda to Roundrock is her vicinity. She knows about the Goodwill Computer Works and is going to try calling them today to see if they can help. I also suggested she try other local thrift stores in the area as they normally have some 5.25" floppies in the electronics section. I don't believe there is any preference for either size format. They just need one and need one now. They had a 5.25" floppy ready for the shoot but it's been misplaced. Someone please help Lucy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 12:36:27 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:36:27 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <202B70AD-3F75-4F5D-8BE9-39829D73B4B9@xlisper.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <9e2403920704180823n627f056axfb48b24cc9018e7f@mail.gmail.com> <202B70AD-3F75-4F5D-8BE9-39829D73B4B9@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0704181036y4762110s13be2d79c90cdc7f@mail.gmail.com> As far as straight CP/M gear, I've got a Kaypro II missing a power supply, and a C128. I may have a Rainbow sitting around, I don't remember. As far as other gear: Apple II+, IIgs, IIc, IIc+, Bell & Howell II, Laser 128, Mac 128, Mac 512, Mac Plus, Mac SE, Mac SE/30, Mac II, Mac IIx, Mac IIfx, Quadra 700, Apple Workgroup Server 95, Mac Portable, Atari 800, Atari 800xe, Atari ST 1040, Amiga 500, Amiga 2000, C64, C128, VIC20, MicroVAX II, MicroVAX 3100, DECTalker, DECStation 3100, DECStation 5000, VAXStation 4000, A few early POWERStations, A few old Sparc 4's, IBM PC, IBM XT, IBM PCjr, PS/2 Model 55, PS/2 Model 40, EDUSystem, PC-RT, Mattel Aquarius, Coleco Adam, SGI IRIS, SGI Indy, Compaq Portable, Compaq Portable II, Quadex Q500 typesetting mini, TI SilentWriter, TI 99/4, TI 99/4A, Tandy CoCo 3, Tandy 100, Data General Nova 3, a few oddball terminals, a handful of old HP and Sinclair calculators, and some other machines I can't remember at the moment. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 18 12:49:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:49:05 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's In-Reply-To: <002f01c781ae$b5a301c0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <002f01c781ae$b5a301c0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On Apr 18, 2007, at 7:42 AM, Barry Watzman wrote: > The H-11 was offered from 1977 (when Heath entered the computer > business) > until about 1981 or 1982 ... I don't remember the exact date. > While the > hardware was nice if you liked DEC architecture (it was just a > standard > LSI-11 made by DEC), it was a terrible system for a computer > hobbyist at the > time. There was very little software, and both the hardware and the > software was expensive. Eh, there was tons of software available...just not in the same places as for the microcomputers, and because of that, perhaps not as easily available. DECUS was very well-established by that time and had a huge amount of PDP-11 software running the gamut from games to chemical analysis. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Apr 18 12:55:20 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:55:20 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848839D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F973@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens John A. Dundas III Verzonden: di 17-04-2007 22:16 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/34 filter and cable routing questions >Henk and Jay, > >Thanks for your comments. It's odd that this isn't in any of the >FMPS anywhere (that I have seen). I can't help but think there must >have been some Field Service maintenance procedure (and thus >document) or training document somewhere that addresses this. I >would imagine this was a typical PM checklist item. > >OK, so the filter OUTSIDE of the velcro, between the panels and the >box frame, makes sense. You can see on mine that there are 4 velco >strips. I don't see any evidence of a retaining bar, as Jay >mentioned, though that makes sense. > > [...snip...] > >I can't use the condition I found this in to determine if the filter >was half height (Henk's case) or full height (Jay's). > >I agree that the filter doesn't seem to actually do much. Especially >in my case where I don't have a top to close the box anyway. I'm >just seeing how close I can get to factory-fresh conditions. > >Thanks for all the comments. > >John I stand corrected. Jay is correct, the foam is over the full height! I removed the front panel of the 11/34C to shoot the pictures that I promised a few days ago. First, there are not 2 but 3 cables, but more "important", the filter foam is *not* just on the upper half of the front of a BA11-K box, but on the full front of the box! Now, in my box there is no foam, but the black plastic with the small "hooks" is glued over the full height of the front, as you can see on the second picture. Also, my ASCII art drawing has just one vertical piece of metal on the front, but there are actually two. Bad sector in my head, I guess :-) Note, picture #1 is 512 kB, and picture #2 is 406 kB. http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/11-34-console-wiring-1.jpg http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/11-34-console-wiring-2.jpg Grab them while you can, I will remove them this weekend! - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 18 12:58:27 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Update on floppy disk request in Austin Message-ID: Lucy said she called the Goodwill Computer Works and was told they have stacks of disks (not surprising) so I guess the need has been fulfilled. Sorry if I got someone all worked up over nothing. At any rate, Lucy says when the film is complete she'll send me the link to the video, which will apparently be posted to Pervasive Software's website. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 18 13:19:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:19:20 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2007, at 9:57 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M > systems. > > Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! My CP/M (and CP/M-capable) stuff, hopefully I won't leave anything out: Imsai 8080 w/CCS Z80 CPU TRS-80 model 2 (not yet functional) TRS-80 model 4 Sage II (currently runs P-System, I lack CP/M-68K boot disks) Kaypro II Kaypro 10 Osborne 1 HP-87XM with CP/M module (not yet booted, I lack floppy drives) Homebrew Z80 SBC I ran CP/M every day for a long time, on the Imsai system at the top of my list, until I mostly "converted" to about 50% PDP-11 and 50% MS-DOS in the mid-80s. I still adore CP/M and run it periodically. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From redodd at comcast.net Wed Apr 18 13:19:11 2007 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:19:11 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment Message-ID: <006001c781e6$16ad0f10$ad00a8c0@core2duo> > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. I have 2 Heath H89's, 1 with the hard sector floppy controller & the other has both hard & soft controllers - neither in running condition at the moment Kaypro II Kaypro 10 - the machine that caused this thread because of turborom problems :) HELP!! Dynabyte DB8/1 S100 system with 64K Dynabyte DB8/4-2 (2 Remex 8in. floppies) both of these haven't been touched in many years TRS-80 Model 4 & 4P - both run LDOS & Montezuma Micro CP/M Apple II with CP/M card Atari 800 with ATR8000 thats runs Atari Doses & CP/M many other non-CP/M machines Ralph From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 13:31:11 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:31:11 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704181703.l3IH2tf2002536@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000501c781e7$bde0c000$6500a8c0@barry> I have an Imsai, a Z-100 and a Processor Technology SOL-20. Some special notes: Although it's not what I'm running, indeed they have been in a box and I have not run them since 1983, I have the three Seattle Computer Products cards required to implement 86-DOS (the OS that Microsoft bought from Seattle Computer Products that became MS-DOS) on the IMSAI or any other S-100 system. And I have 86-DOS itself, original floppy diskettes direct from Seattle Computer Products. I bought it myself back in 1980 direct from SCP, it's original, and I think I have every version from 0.33 to 2.0 (e.g. MS-DOS 2.0). Also, I have a working Helios disk system for the SOL-20, and I have copies of PTDOS that actually run. This might just be the last working Helios PTDOS system in existence, certainly there are not many of them still running. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 18 13:31:11 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:31:11 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H-11 & H-27 In-Reply-To: <200704181703.l3IH2tf2002536@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601c781e7$be31c630$6500a8c0@barry> Re:" From: "Ethan Dicks" I'm still trying to get that H27 drive working. I should check bitsavers or schematics for the Qbus floppy card. The card itself works to a point - if I install it in a minimal system (CPU, serial, RAM, boot/terminator), I can get the system to read in the boot sector from the floppy, but it hangs about the time RT-11 is running far enough to turn the interrupts on. I suppose I should also track down an H-11 configuration guide or module list or installation docs or whatever it came with to ensure I have a happy set of cards set to happy values. I've checked each chip on the H-27 interface, so I'm reasonably certain it's not a simple hardware problem; I'm not so convinced it isn't a jumper or other configuration problem. Mine came to me with only the enclosure and backplane being native Heathkit. The rest was 100% DEC (the floppy was never attached while I worked at that company). If anyone has any H-11 "getting started" docs, I'd appreciate a copy. Thanks, -ethan" As I said previously: "The H-27 was just two standard 8" drives in a case with a Z-80 based intelligent controller (WD1771 disk controller chip) that talked to the H-11 using what we would now call a "host adapter" over a proprietary bi-directional parallel port. The interface and command set wasn't any of the standards for this type of configuration (e.g. it wasn't SASI or SCSI), but it used that type of architecture. For a number of years I used an H-27 on an S-100 system with a Tarbell controller by simply disconnecting the internal intelligent controller and running a 50-pin cable direct to the two Memorex drives. They were Shugart SA-801 compatible, so it was an easy configuration to use, the H-27 then being just two drives, a power supply and a cabinet." Your interface card (in the H-11/LSI-11) is apparently good. The next thing to check is the two 8" Memorex drives. Since these are standard 50-pin cable Shugart compatible drives, this is fairly easy to test if you have another system .... just disconnect the daisy chain from the internal controller (the Z-80/WD1771 board in the H-27 cabinet, below the drives (below the sheet metal that the drives sit on), connect the drives to another known-good 8" controller and see if they work. If they do work, then the issue must be in the internal H-27 controller. That controller is a Z-80 with a WD1771 FDC and, of course, it has it's own firmware in ROM and it's own RAM (probably a few 2114's). Any of that could be bad. Also, that board has two modes, selected with a front panel switch, Heath and DEC (not what they were called, but the switch should be clear). RT-11 may or may not work in the Heath mode, I'm not sure (but HT-11 most definitely will not work in the DEC mode, which was really the point of this exercise). Beyond that, I don't know of a good way to test that board without something like a Z-80 ICE unit. That type of embedded system can be very hard to troubleshoot. There may have been some built-in diagnostics, but I have no information on that at this point. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 13:31:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:31:37 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H11 In-Reply-To: <002401c781c8$30dc6160$0401010a@GIZMO> References: , <002401c781c8$30dc6160$0401010a@GIZMO> Message-ID: <46260199.2293.1F9719C0@cclist.sydex.com> I remember seeing the H11 advertised in my Heathkit catalog, along with the H8. Since I already had an S100 system, the H8 didn't interest me much, but H11 intrigued me. I eventually found someone at work who purchased one--he had expected the H11 to be fully compatible with DEC hardware, but was sorely disappointed with it, particularly in terms of compatibility, expandability and performance. He eventually got himself an S-100 setup (Godbout, I think) and was much happier. What few people considered in the early days of the hobbyist computer was the comparative lack of software for many platforms. I constructed S-100 cards for the National PACE as well as the GI CP1600 and they soon floated to the bottom of the hellbox when I realized that I was going to have to write all of my own software. I think the same thing happened to those who purchased 6502 and 6800 S- 100 boards. Mind you, that "PDP-11 compatibility" of the H11 was certainly attractive and I almost fell for it. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 18 13:40:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:40:50 -0700 Subject: HP 1611 Microprocessor Logic Analyzer Message-ID: <46266632.8060307@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone on the list have documentation for the 1611s? I found the docs I have this morning. Basic service manual and Z80 personality module up on http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/1611 I have the 8080 and 8085 module docs that I'll get to eventually. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Apr 18 13:42:50 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:42:50 -0500 Subject: TONIGHT: 5.25" or 8" floppy disk urgently needed in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462666AA.5090803@pacbell.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I got a call from Lucy Frost of Granite House (a video production company) > in Austin just now. She's desperately in need of a 5.25" or 8" floppy > disk for a video shoot they are doing tonight. They are doing a spoof > infomercial for a client around the Btrieve software product. Yes, that > Btrieve...it's still being published by a company called Pervasive > Software. > > Anyway, if you can help (Jim Battle?) then please contact her directly: > > Lucy Frost > 512/844-2520 cell > 512/481-1300 office > lucy at granitehouse.com > > She tells me they Buda to Roundrock is her vicinity. She knows about the > Goodwill Computer Works and is going to try calling them today to see if > they can help. I also suggested she try other local thrift stores in the > area as they normally have some 5.25" floppies in the electronics section. > I don't believe there is any preference for either size format. They > just need one and need one now. They had a 5.25" floppy ready for the > shoot but it's been misplaced. > > Someone please help Lucy. I just talked with her. She said that the computerworks has some disks so she is going to go there. If it doesn't work out I'd be glad to help. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 13:48:58 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:48:58 -0500 Subject: TONIGHT: 5.25" or 8" floppy disk urgently needed in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730704181148s6458d8a4g458fe7724d36608b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I got a call from Lucy Frost of Granite House (a video production company) > in Austin just now. She's desperately in need of a 5.25" or 8" floppy > disk for a video shoot they are doing tonight. They are doing a spoof > infomercial for a client around the Btrieve software product. Yes, that > Btrieve...it's still being published by a company called Pervasive > Software. Yep, they sure do. I've had to deploy their "M/PM" product for a few versions now. "Btrieve Error 150?" Huh? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 13:51:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:51:01 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2007 at 12:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > I doubt there's any shortage of CP/M capable hardware owned by people on the > list - there's just a shortage of CP/M "hardcore" knowledge, because the > systems don't get used often enough for people to remember the real nuts and > bolts. ...and how many of us could assemble a CP/M capable machine from what's in our junkbox? Really, for a functional system, you'd need a x80-capable processor, some RAM, a UART (if it's not already on the processor chip) and an FDC (a WD1770/1772 will do just fine)--and a bit of PROM to get it booted. At least that would be the case for CP/M 2.2. CP/M 3.0 (aka CP/M Plus) is a bit more of a problem, as it involves support for things such as time-of-day and bank-switching. The same goes for MP/M, which also requires a timer interrupt. What there's not a lot of knowledge for are the CP/M "add-ons" such as Display Manager and Access Manager and the networking (was it CP/Net or something like that?). I once redid a ROM set for an IBM PC so it would boot CP/M 80 when equipped with a V20 CPU. I/O was handled in x88 mode. Since the V20 supported the 8080 instruction set, did this qualify as a emulator or not? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 13:51:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:51:44 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's In-Reply-To: <002901c781d0$ae1b8bd0$0401010a@GIZMO> References: <002901c781d0$ae1b8bd0$0401010a@GIZMO> Message-ID: On 4/18/07, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: > > >[W]H-27 problems... > >I can get the system to read in the boot sector from the floppy, > >but it hangs about the time RT-11 is running far enough to > >turn the interrupts on. > > Dumb question - you _do_ have the RX-01/Extended switch set to RX-01, > right? It is a dumb questions - my dumb answer is I certainly hope I did. I will check the state of the switch the next time I am in front of the box and if it's wrong, slap myself and start debugging from the top. > Extended mode isn't DEC compatible and the RT11 driver won't work > with it. I had a vague idea that I didn't want the switch in the extended (Heath) position, but I didn't know the specific consequences. I have a hint of a dim memory that perhaps one could format blank media in extended mode, but I wasn't trying to format, just to boot existing RT-11 v4 floppies that work fine in a MINC-11. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 18 13:49:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:49:03 -0500 Subject: TONIGHT: 5.25" or 8" floppy disk urgently needed in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4626681F.30502@yahoo.co.uk> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Someone please help Lucy. More than a nanosecond's notice would be nice (and courteous), but sadly that never seems to happen. I'm not sure if it's down to unrealistic timescales, sheer bad planning, or an expectation that people will jump through hoops for them just because it's a media company. :-( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 18 14:58:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:58:25 -0600 Subject: TONIGHT: 5.25" or 8" floppy disk urgently needed in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46267861.20204@jetnet.ab.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I got a call from Lucy Frost of Granite House (a video production company) > in Austin just now. She's desperately in need of a 5.25" or 8" floppy > disk for a video shoot they are doing tonight. They are doing a spoof > infomercial for a client around the Btrieve software product. Yes, that > Btrieve...it's still being published by a company called Pervasive > Software. > > Anyway, if you can help (Jim Battle?) then please contact her directly: > > Lucy Frost > 512/844-2520 cell > 512/481-1300 office > lucy at granitehouse.com > > She tells me they Buda to Roundrock is her vicinity. She knows about the > Goodwill Computer Works and is going to try calling them today to see if > they can help. I also suggested she try other local thrift stores in the > area as they normally have some 5.25" floppies in the electronics section. > I don't believe there is any preference for either size format. They > just need one and need one now. They had a 5.25" floppy ready for the > shoot but it's been misplaced. > > Someone please help Lucy. Change the script to use a LASER DISK ... it all fits on a CD-ROM now. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 18 14:24:57 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:24:57 -0700 Subject: DEC Terminals available... Message-ID: <200704181224.57662.lbickley@bickleywest.com> If you're in the market for some DEC terminals - VT420 mostly - go to Weirdstuff (Sunnyvale, CA) this week! Doing my weekly Weirdstuff check - I found a lot (approx. 50) of DEC VT420's that are about be scrapped - likely by Friday of this week! Weirdstuff is willing to sell known working (you can test yourself) VT420's for $10 w/o keyboard or $20 w/keyboard. The retail store has been told of this deal - so you can go there - or if you're going to purchase quantity, contact "Jimmy" 408-743-5650 x320. They also have some DEC VT320, VT330, VT520, WYSE and other terminals available for additional $ (They are NOT scheduled to be scrapped). LOCAL PICKUP ONLY (absolutely NO SHIPPING). [I have no financial interest in this transaction] Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 18 14:31:31 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:31:31 -0700 Subject: DEC Terminals - Location of Weirdstuff... Message-ID: <200704181231.31399.lbickley@bickleywest.com> We SV/SF Bay Area locals know this - but many others of you may not: Weirdstuff Warehouse 384 West Caribbean Drive Sunnyvale, California, 94089 Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Apr 18 14:25:15 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:25:15 -0500 Subject: Update on floppy disk request in Austin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070418142355.0de4ece8@localhost> At 10:58 AM 4/18/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Lucy said she called the Goodwill Computer Works and was told they have >stacks of disks (not surprising) so I guess the need has been fulfilled. >Sorry if I got someone all worked up over nothing. > >At any rate, Lucy says when the film is complete she'll send me the link >to the video, which will apparently be posted to Pervasive Software's >website. There's something up on http://www.pervasivetimemachine.com/ now that looks pretty interesting. Especially if you're a late-boomer or thereabouts. It's called the BTrieve Time Machine. ----- 901. "I started in this business as a cop in New York City, and we're prosecuting juveniles now for things I used to chase them home for." -- Nick Chiarkas (The Wisconsin State Public Defender) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:39:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:39:16 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <006001c781e6$16ad0f10$ad00a8c0@core2duo> References: <006001c781e6$16ad0f10$ad00a8c0@core2duo> Message-ID: On 4/18/07, Ralph E. Dodd wrote: > Apple II with CP/M card My boss at a job in 1984 had one of those for running business software. I never got to use it, but it seemed to do the trick for him. I should google it to read up on the details, though I'll probably never run across one in the wild. -ethan From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Apr 18 14:40:41 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IDE Qbus controller (was TU-58s) In-Reply-To: <0JGO00MZ4ZHRLE23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGO00MZ4ZHRLE23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Allison wrote: > Devices that arent MSCP like DD(tu58), DK(RX02), DY(RX02), > DL(RL02) might make for examples. I'm fortunate to have > the uncut sources on RL02. Unfortunately I'm not an > experienced PDP-11 programmer. The upside is I have the > RT-11 docset. You might take a look at the sources for the Pro350/380 hard disk driver. IIRC (I did some mucking about with that driver, although it has been years), the controller was quite similar to the WD1010 stuff that eventually became IDE. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 18 14:44:05 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:44:05 +0200 Subject: IRIS Indigo PM2 post-portem In-Reply-To: <8v6gcy4l3x2krjp.170420070942@jvdg.com> References: <8v6gcy4l3x2krjp.170420070942@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <20070418214405.21644fdc@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:42:54 +0200 Joost van de Griek wrote: > They are very nice machines. Built like tanks. Even a defunct one > serves as a nice example of how workstations *should* be constructed. Except the PSUs. I think I am now past a dozen Indigos with blowen up PSUs. A friend with experience in repairing SM-PSUs tried to fix the PSUs once - and finaly gave up. Fortunately it is not hard to replace the PSU: http://www.aopc98.dsl.pipex.com/indigo_psu_rescue.html SGI hardware is nice, but quirky. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Apr 18 14:47:39 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. > > Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! - Epson PX-8, but it needs new batteries. - P112, but I haven't gotten around to finishing it. - ML644, 8" SSSD designed by Utah State University. Mine's a commercially licensed clone produced by a company called MicroOmega. - Osborne 1, state unknown. I picked it up at a surplus sale a few years ago, but have never powered it on. I think that's it at the moment, unless you'll let me count my MicroVAX 2000 based upon my incomplete port of CP/M-68K (got distracted by World of Warcraft, which is also why I never finished building my P112). -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 13:11:02 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:11:02 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGP00A7HH4LEG54@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CP/M survey > From: Mark Tapley > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but that's irrelevant to CP/M-80). Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it was a dual CPU (has a z80). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 13:20:33 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:20:33 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment Message-ID: <0JGP00A0CHKGEJF4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Quick survey on equipment > From: "Ade Vickers" > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:43:18 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who >> have CP/M systems. >> > >> > Lets do a quick survey >> >> Way too many to list (or even remember), but you can see a >> relatively up to date list (and photos etc) at: > >Damn, I was hoping to have the only Epson PX-8; as far as I know the only >CP/M system to do (micro)cassette tapes. I played with blcok structred microcasette back around 80-81. Also the Coleco adam ram CP/M on casette. There were otehrs but none portable and that was a big deal with the PX8. >I also have an Osborne-1, and a C128 (which I think I have CP/M disks for); >and IIRC used to have a set of CP/M disks for an Acorn Master - or was that >GEM, can't remember now. > >Oh, and I've got a Sharp MZ-80B which I believe will run CP/M. Yes it do. >Shame I've not the foggiest how to use it. I can get Wordstar running on one >of the PX-8s, but only because it's in ROM. I can do DIR and run a program - >does it do anything else? Excellent word processor (WS!). The base system has enough "ramdisk" argumented by plug in roms (two) to be useful for many tasks. If you have one of the wedges that added "ramdisk" its usefulness increases. Mine has the 120k ramdisk wedge and I have the three most useful roms, those being Wordstar, Basic and CP/M utilties. I keep a amateur radio logging datadase on it (written in basic) both to prove usfulness and also because the RFI output is far lower than many PC laptop beasts. It doesn't hurt that the battery life (with good nicads) far exceeds a lot of laptops. Allison From info at harrells.net Wed Apr 18 14:52:00 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:52:00 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <46264F30.7010603@socal.rr.com> References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4625A160.3070905@mdrconsult.com> <46264F30.7010603@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <462676E0.6040307@harrells.net> With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me a copy of the format.com. I have a k10 without the kayplus bios and a new hard drive that needs formatting. I have download the kaypro disks from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. I have a program called hdskfmt.com which I was told would work but it is just a disk certify program. Thanks From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 18 15:15:31 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:15:31 -0700 Subject: errors in disk images (was Kapro 10 format.com) Message-ID: <46267C63.8000408@bitsavers.org> > I have download the kaypro disks > from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. It is REALLY REALLY important that you tell Dave, or other archivists when errors are found in disc images. One of the most difficult things to do is to verify that a distribution disc still contains good copies of what it claims to on the label. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 15:16:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:16:56 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46267CB8.2070302@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I once redid a ROM set for an IBM PC so it would boot CP/M 80 when > equipped with a V20 CPU. I/O was handled in x88 mode. Since the V20 > supported the 8080 instruction set, did this qualify as a emulator or > not? I'd say no. It's real hardware. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 18 15:28:14 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:28:14 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46267F5F.80A4BC74@cs.ubc.ca> Just because I don't think it's been mentioned: Vector Graphic MZ (or are we not distinguishing between various S100 boxes..?) Given to me a few years ago but really haven't done much with it other than to power it up, boot CP/M from the solitary disk it came with and see that it will load & run BASIC from the disk. Seems to be a well-built S100 box, but with hard-sectored floppy drives and a 'unique' SSI/MSI disk controller. Also came with a 'really dumb' terminal: just the monitor and keyboard in a terminal case and all the terminal smarts on an S100 card back in the processor. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 18 15:43:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:43:45 -0500 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Apr 2007 at 12:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I doubt there's any shortage of CP/M capable hardware owned by people on the >> list - there's just a shortage of CP/M "hardcore" knowledge, because the >> systems don't get used often enough for people to remember the real nuts and >> bolts. > > ...and how many of us could assemble a CP/M capable machine from > what's in our junkbox? Really, for a functional system, you'd need a > x80-capable processor, some RAM, a UART (if it's not already on the > processor chip) and an FDC (a WD1770/1772 will do just fine)--and a > bit of PROM to get it booted. Interesting; did CP/M ship with a range of UART and FDC drivers then, so you just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port addresses, and away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and realistically you'd have to write your own comms / FDC driver which exposed some defined interface to CP/M itself? > What there's not a lot of knowledge for are the CP/M "add-ons" such > as Display Manager and Access Manager and the networking (was it > CP/Net or something like that?). Hmm, one of my Research Machines (RML) systems has the networking add-ons; I think they called their implementation Z-net. Clients have enough ROM-resident code to invoke some form of network boot from the server - what I'm not sure is whether the OS image transfer is part of core "network aware CP/M" or whether that's a Research Machines extension (with the core stuff only really providing network-aware file services). The manuals are rather buried at the moment, but I seem to recall that they weren't exactly big on details anyway (RML were great at producing hardware documentation, but not so hot at writing down how the software side worked) cheers Jules From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Apr 18 15:48:18 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:48:18 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org><46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <004601c781fa$e5a39aa0$0701a8c0@win2000> > > Let's see.... for CP/M systems.. > Osborne 1, 2 KayPro's, and several Prolog STD-BUS systems. And... A Chameleon that boots DOS or CPM. FWIW, I haven't powered up any of them in the last 10 years :-( SteveRob From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 18 15:54:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:54:05 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGP00A7HH4LEG54@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGP00A7HH4LEG54@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200704181654.05732.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 18 April 2007 14:11, Allison wrote: > >Subject: CP/M survey > > From: Mark Tapley > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but that's irrelevant to > > CP/M-80). > > Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it was a dual CPU (has > a z80). I'd imagine that Mark meant that the amount of memory (832k) was irrelevant to CP/M-80. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 16:10:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGP00A7HH4LEG54@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <54057.61098.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: CP/M survey > > From: Mark Tapley > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but > that's irrelevant to CP/M-80). > > Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it > was a dual CPU (has a z80). > > Allison Could it access more then 64k under CP/M-80? Don't you mean CP/M-86? Not to nit pick... I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but I was under the impression the 'bow could go up to 896k. Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd party upgrade. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 18 16:13:02 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:13:02 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <462689DE.9080102@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/04/2007 02:57, Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M > systems. > > Lets do a quick survey This prompted me to update my list of "stuff". Systems that run CP/M include a BBC Microcomputer with an Acorn Z80 "second processor", a Cromemco System Three (with any of an assortment of S100 cards), and an Amstrad PCW 8512. Systems that could run CP/M if I made enough effort, or run CP/M-68K include an Exidy Sorcerer (with two humungous 5.25" floppies), a Nascom, a Sage II, and a Commodore 128. I also have a BBC Micro with a Torch Z80A "second processor" (I have two of these), which runs "CPN", similar to CP/M-in-a-ROM, but some real CP/M software doesn't run because of the memory map. I have quite a lot of Acorn equipment: Acorn Atom Acorn Electron BBC Microcomputer Model B BBC Microcomputer Model B BBC Microcomputer Model B Plus 128K Torch Z80 Card (Z80A Coprocessor for BBC Micro) Torch Z80 Card (Z80A Coprocessor for BBC Micro) Acorn 65C02, cased (3MHz Coprocessor for BBC Micro) Acorn 65C02, uncased (3MHz Coprocessor for BBC Micro) Acorn Z80A (4MHz Coprocessor for BBC Micro) Acorn ARM Evaluation System (ARM Coprocessor for BBC Micro) Acorn Cambridge Coprocessor (32016 Coprocessor for BBC Micro) BBC Master 128 with Master Turbo Coprocessor (4MHz 65C102) Archimedes 310 Archimedes 440 Acorn A3020 Acorn R260 with non-Acorn SCSI Acorn R260 I also have a couple of Teletext adapters for BBC micros, but alas no Prestel Adapter (anyone got one? I'd love to have one again, as I helped debug the software for it) Quite a bit of DEC stuff: Vax 3100 ?VAX-II with RD54, TK50 (BA23) ?PDP-11/83 2 x RD54, RX50 (BA23) PDP-11/73S with Fujitsu SMD (BA11S) PDP 11/23 with RL02s (BA11N) PDP-11/40 with RX02s, RL11 interface, and VT11/VR14 PDP-11/03 (card cage and H786 PSU) PDP-8/E with RX02 and TD8E (but sadly no TU56 yet) spare 11/03, 11/23, and 11/73 processors and many other QBus cards Sun and SGI etc: Sparcstation 1+ Sparc Classic Sun Sparcserver 5 SGI Indigo R4000 SGI Indigo R3000 XZ SGI Indigo R3000 Elan Silicon Graphics Indy R5000SC 150MHz 256MB 24-bit Silicon Graphics Indy R4400SC 150MHz 192MB 24-bit Silicon Graphics Indy R4600SC 133MHz 64MB 8-bit Silicon Graphics O2 R5K 180MHz Silicon Graphics O2 R10K 180MHz Silicon Graphics Origin2000 16 x R10K 180MHz NeXTstation (slab) with monochrome display Apple, Commodore, Sinclair: Apple ][+ with 2 x Disk ][ Apple //e with 2 x Disk ][ Apple Mac Plus with hard drive Apple Mac IIvx (and a much newer Mac at work whose model number I can't recall) KIM-1 Commodore PET 2001-8K Commodore 8050 dual drive floppy disk Commodore VIC-20 Commodore 128 (US version) Amiga 500 Sinclair ZX80 Sinclair ZX80 (with extra RAM) Sinclair ZX81 Sinclair Spectrum Sinclair Spectrum + Sinclair QL Other micros, handhelds, etc: Cromemco System Three (with lots of extra S100 cards) Cromemco Single Card Computer (S100) Nascom Sharp MZ80K Exidy Sorcerer with dual floppies Dragon 32 Atari MegaST Amstrad PCW 8512 Sage II Toshiba HX-10 NEC PC8300 portable homebrew Zilog Z8 SBC KIM-1 Motorola MK6800D2 2901 Bit-Slice Tutor parts of a Zilog Z80 system HP iPAQ 2200 Sharp Zaurus SL5600 Microwriter AgendA Psion Organiser II Cambridge Z88 Softy 3 programmer several Cybikos network devices: minihub Superstack PS 40 II hub GatorBox CS (Localtalk/Ethernet bridge) 3Com ISDN LANmodem JetDirect printer server Telebit Netblazer, 2-port Xylogics Annex 2000 16-port terminal/modem/console server Racal Interlan 8-port terminal server Newbridge VIVID Orange Ridge ATM/Ethernet 12-port switch Newbridge VIVID CS1000 12-port ATM switch Newbridge VIVID Red Ridge ATM/FDDI bridge Newbridge VIVID ATM Route Server HP Procurve 2524 switch Cisco 7507 switch Cisco wireless AP Linksys wireless AP Linksys wireless AP/router Draytek Vigor 2600 broadband router and a few printers, a Teletype 33ASR, a few terminals, etc etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 18 16:31:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:31:15 -0600 Subject: DEC Terminals available... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:24:57 -0700. <200704181224.57662.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200704181224.57662.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > LOCAL PICKUP ONLY (absolutely NO SHIPPING). That counts me out... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Apr 18 16:57:56 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:57:56 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704181702.l3IH1NTl002489@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704181702.l3IH1NTl002489@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16C1A346-6740-4E5F-81D2-C5572AEB001A@microspot.co.uk> No CP/M machines, though I think I saw a Z80 softcard in a box of old Apple ][ cards I have lying about, though I know nothing about CP/M as I came from mainframes, minis and military computers directly to Apple. Two ICT 1301 Mainframes, one operational, the other dismantled but complete, offered to UK Science Museum but their new boss has ordered them to stop collecting big computers. The first one was offered several years ago (via the Computer Conservation Society) to Bletchley museum but they had no space for it. Since then I have restored it to an operational state and am now working on getting the peripherals working so that I can read the software and get it onto modern media. Then will work on the rest of the peripherals such as the line printer and online card punch. Manufactured in 1962, acquired late 1970s. Price new about a quarter of a million pounds each. Need 700 square feet floor space each, weigh 5 tons each, consume 13kVA three phase (440V). UK101 single board computer (8k static RAM, mono video output, keyboard, casette tape storage) Two or three Apple ][ europlus. 48K, twin floppy drives, dozens of cards, hopefully including a Microspot serial/parallel card (AKA MicroPeripherals Zappler) which I designed. An Apple /// (probably non operational), maybe two plus a Profile hard drive. An operational Macintosh XL (AKA Lisa 2), plus one which has not been powered up in 5-10 years. Odd Macintoshes, can't remember what, we had a chuck out a while ago and I'm not sure what is left. A Titanium Powerbook, so once a year I can run Civilisation 2 and a few other games, which won't work on Intel Macs. Work machine: MacBook Pro, 2 GHz Intel Core Duo. Roger Holmes Also collect classic cars and hoard all sorts of interesting junk because its easier than selling it (e.g. never sold a car). From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Apr 18 17:03:07 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:03:07 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <006001c781e6$16ad0f10$ad00a8c0@core2duo> <006001c781e6$16ad0f10$ad00a8c0@core2duo> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070418180212.012bfdb0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >On 4/18/07, Ralph E. Dodd wrote: >>Apple II with CP/M card > >My boss at a job in 1984 had one of those for running business >software. I never got to use it, but it seemed to do the trick for >him. > >I should google it to read up on the details, though I'll probably >never run across one in the wild. Dunno... how wild do you wanna get? I think I have a card stuffed in the attic - I don't have a ][, tho... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Apr 18 17:08:55 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:08:55 -0700 Subject: HP 1611 Microprocessor Logic Analyzer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al Kossow wrote: I found the docs I have this morning. Basic service manual and Z80 personality module up on http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/1611 I have the 8080 and 8085 module docs that I'll get to eventually. --------------------- Thanks Al. I appreciate it. I'll be spending the weekend going through these 3 manuals. Then see if I can modify the 1611 to do other, older machines. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 16:49:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:49:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: hardware parity generation In-Reply-To: <4624E623.20864.1B43D3A9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 17, 7 03:22:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Apr 2007 at 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I think that the early databooks also show how to make a parity > > > generator from a bipolar ROM. > > > > You can make any combinatorial logic circuit from a ROM. Using one for a > > parity tree seems ridiculously over-complex, though. > > Motorola marketed the MC4041 as something very much like this; it was > a pre-programmed version of an XC170 ROM. Of course, they were also > suggesting that the same ROM be used as a BCD-to-7 segment decoder > (MC4039) and a 3-bit-to-8 demux (MC4038). Note that I said "early" > :) That last oen is totally ridiculous IMHO, given that a ROM contains an n->2^n decoder to select an a particular location in the ROM determined by the states of the n address lioes. And if, as you said, it was early, there's even less of a justification. Trasnistors were more expensive back then... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 16:59:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:59:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at Apr 18, 7 11:57:43 am Message-ID: > > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. For a non-CP/M lover, I actually have a fair number (I am only consdering CP/M-80). TRS-80 Model 4 (although I rarely run CP/M on it) Commodore 128 DEC Rainbow Epson QX10 Epson PX4 Epson PX8 CASU SUper C (This is a UK S100 box with a Persci 8" drive) Intel MDS800 (does that count?) BBC Model B qith a Z80 second processor Bitto with a Torch Z80 board (this actually runs something called CP/N which is darn similar) Tatung Einstein (again, I only have Xtaldos for it, but I think it can run true CP.M too) RML 380Z And probably a couple more that I've forgotten about -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 17:11:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:11:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <006901c781ae$c2890240$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> from "Ade Vickers" at Apr 18, 7 12:43:18 pm Message-ID: > Damn, I was hoping to have the only Epson PX-8; as far as I know the only > CP/M system to do (micro)cassette tapes. No I have one too. The Epson PX4 was also a CP/M machine that used microcassette tapes, but the tape drive was an option module (fitted in the area to the right of the display) and I don't have it in mine I do have the 5.25" disk drive unit for these machines -- the TF20. It's darn complex inside -- a Z80, 64K RAM, a boot ROM that's switched out after intitialisation, a disk controller and a serial port. Oh and a pair of those Epson 1/3 height voice-coil floppy drives. I was once told that the TF20 boots a modified CP/M/fileserver program from the system disk. Does anyone know if that's true? > Oh, and I've got a Sharp MZ-80B which I believe will run CP/M. That's another machine I have and which I missed off the earlier list... Along with the Apple ][ + Softcard. > > Shame I've not the foggiest how to use it. I can get Wordstar running on one > of the PX-8s, but only because it's in ROM. I can do DIR and run a program - > does it do anything else? CP/M has very few built-in commands, most of the stuff you'd expect to be built in -- like copying a file -- is done by separate programs loaded from disk (to copy a file you use PIP, for example). On the PX8, there was a standard utilities ROM that contained PIP. STAT, and the other common CP/M programs. If you don't have that in your machine, get tie image of the web and burn it to EPROM. You need it. What more do you expect it to do (other than run programs)? CP/M is a very simple OS, it doesn't do much more than that :-) -tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Apr 18 18:04:57 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:04:57 -0700 Subject: DEC Terminals available... Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: If you're in the market for some DEC terminals - VT420 mostly - go to Weirdstuff (Sunnyvale, CA) this week! Doing my weekly Weirdstuff check - I found a lot (approx. 50) of DEC VT420's that are about be scrapped - likely by Friday of this week! Weirdstuff is willing to sell known working (you can test yourself) VT420's for $10 w/o keyboard or $20 w/keyboard. The retail store has been told of this deal - so you can go there - or if you're going to purchase quantity, contact "Jimmy" 408-743-5650 x320. They also have some DEC VT320, VT330, VT520, WYSE and other terminals available for additional $ (They are NOT scheduled to be scrapped). LOCAL PICKUP ONLY (absolutely NO SHIPPING). ------------ I can't get up to the Bay area again until Memorial Day. If any of you local to the Bay area decide to buy some of these, would pick up one (with keyboard) for me? I can mail you a check, PayPal or your preference. Just can't pick it up until end of May. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Apr 18 18:09:14 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:09:14 -0700 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> A nightmare is up on youtube. At least it hits me that way, as a full time disk person. Billy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQzGIqp4t8 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 18 18:11:27 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 00:11:27 +0100 Subject: DEC Terminals available... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18/4/07 22:31, "Richard" wrote: > > In article <200704181224.57662.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, > Lyle Bickley writes: > >> LOCAL PICKUP ONLY (absolutely NO SHIPPING). > > That counts me out... Me too, I'm on the wrong continent :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Apr 18 18:24:38 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 00:24:38 +0100 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <462676E0.6040307@harrells.net> References: <003b01c780ab$2413f880$6701a8c0@Wayne> <4624DDF6.7010604@mdrconsult.com> <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4625A160.3070905@mdrconsult.com> <46264F30.7010603@socal.rr.com> <462676E0.6040307@harrells.net> Message-ID: <2f806cd70704181624i55aa490dy247101152918a9c1@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, info wrote: > With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me > a copy of the format.com. I have a k10 without the kayplus bios and a > new hard drive that needs formatting. I have download the kaypro disks > from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. I have a > program called hdskfmt.com which I was told would work but it is just a > disk certify program. Thanks I don't know if this is anything relevant, but I've got a kaypro disc imaged at http://www.irrelevant.com/cc/ (the speedstor disc) that has a "hardprep.exe" program on it .. These were just a batch of diskettes I found and posted some time back, after rescuing them from a place I used to work.. I don't know what particular model of machine this one was for... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 18 18:26:50 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:26:50 -0500 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <462689DE.9080102@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <462689DE.9080102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4626A93A.2060404@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Systems that could run CP/M if I made enough effort, or run CP/M-68K > include an Exidy Sorcerer (with two humungous 5.25" floppies), a Nascom, > a Sage II, and a Commodore 128. Hmmm, I forgot about my Nascom. Although it's a fair way off being in any fit state to run anything - I do an hour or so here and there on it... > I also have a BBC Micro with a Torch Z80A "second processor" (I have two > of these), which runs "CPN", similar to CP/M-in-a-ROM, but some real > CP/M software doesn't run because of the memory map. I think you could boot CP/N on the Torch 68000 cards (Neptune and Atlas) too - they have a Z80 on board as well as the m68k chip. > I also have a couple of Teletext adapters for BBC micros, but alas no > Prestel Adapter (anyone got one? I'd love to have one again, as I > helped debug the software for it) Noted. I've got one but it's right at the back of everything with around 50 other Acorn machines in front of it (I kid you not) - at some point I'll unearth it, and I don't see any particular reason to keep it. > Sinclair ZX80 > Sinclair ZX80 (with extra RAM) *two* of them? Make sure they don't breed :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 18:47:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:47:55 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46264BBB.26193.20B8A888@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2007 at 15:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting; did CP/M ship with a range of UART and FDC drivers then, so you > just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port addresses, and > away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and realistically you'd have > to write your own comms / FDC driver which exposed some defined interface to > CP/M itself? The standard OEM distro of CP/M 2.2 came on an 8" diskette and was configured to boot on an Intel MDS. It included a "skeleton" CBIOS and a sample CBIOS. Writing a CBIOS for CP/M is very easy--it doesn't have to be interrupt-driven or re-entrant. You don't even need to support IOBYTE for most applications. Did anyone on the list ever develop any applications using the x80 PL/I compiler from DRI? IIRC, DRI was really pushing their ISV program and PL/I-80 sometime around 1980 or so. I played around with developing a database manager using it, but eventually settled instead on assembler. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 18 19:03:43 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:03:43 -0400 Subject: TONIGHT: 5.25" or 8" floppy disk urgently needed in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <4626681F.30502@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4626681F.30502@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4626B1DF.1020404@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> Someone please help Lucy. > > > More than a nanosecond's notice would be nice (and courteous), but sadly > that never seems to happen. I'm not sure if it's down to unrealistic > timescales, sheer bad planning, or an expectation that people will jump > through hoops for them just because it's a media company. :-( Actually, this time it looks like the moment's notice thing happened because they took care of it early, and then couldn't find it when it was needed. I wish I had a buck for every time I'd worn those shoes.... Doc From jclang at notms.net Wed Apr 18 19:20:36 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:20:36 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4626B5D4.8050606@notms.net> Since we seem to be heading to the more obscure CP/M systems: I have a monolithic systems Z80 multibus I system running cpm 2.2 There can't be many of them out there. ;-) joe lang From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 18 20:46:20 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:46:20 -0500 Subject: errors in disk images (was Kapro 10 format.com) In-Reply-To: <46267C63.8000408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200704190047.l3J0luQv015023@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I have download the kaypro disks > > from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. > > It is REALLY REALLY important that you tell Dave, or other archivists > when errors are found in disc images. > > One of the most difficult things to do is to verify that a distribution > disc still contains good copies of what it claims to on the label. Here Here! (Thats a Canadian way of saying absolutely, wholeheartedly, I agree, listen to what the smart man is saying). I've archived many disk sets for which I don't have a system to view the disk on, and in many cases I don't have the system up and running yet anyway (Archiving the disks is pretty much the FIRST thing that I do). In other cases, the disk images are submissions from others (much appreciated) and I have no way to verify their content. In general, it is best to correspond with me and I will do my best to rectify the problem - In this case I heard nothing, until I happened to notice Als comment. It might seem that the archive just makes and maintains itself, but the truth is that it just ain't so - No doubt you will find problems and errors ... sorry, but it's the best I can do given the funding ($0) and time requirements (lots). Best thing to do is be a part of it - let me in on the details, and we can work on improving it. For example, It would be helpful to know WHICH set of kaypro disks is in error, as I have several posted to the site. I've just gone through all four kaypro sets that I have posted with IMDV and found that the string 'multiplan' occurs only on the KAYII03.IMD image from the Kaypro 3*83 set, which is labled "CP/M application" - seems pretty reasonable to me. Disk 2 of the Kaypro10 set has "PLAN.COM" and "MP*.*" files which could be multiplan - but it also has several other programs. It is labeled "System disk 2", so perhaps it's the one you are talking about? The Kaypro10 archive was submitted by a third party (I don't have a K10, nor any disks for it) - I've never seen the original disk labels - judging by the organization of the README file, it appears that the disks were made from user areas on a hard drive, not from original install media. I really don't know how they are organized - perhaps the originator of the archive consided these "system files". I suspect that if you go through all the disk images, you will find the files that you need. It would be worthwhile to have information that I can add to the archive detailing what is found where and what is missing... (Hint - be a part of it!). Thats all the material I have, so I can't do much about the actual content, however I can insert notes into the README file indicating potentional problems, and asking for someone with a set of original Kaypro 10 install media to image them .. With luck we can improve on things. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rcini at optonline.net Wed Apr 18 20:11:21 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:11:21 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hmmm, I have a Northstar Horizon and an IMSAI. I haven't used the N* recently but I think it's running 2.2. The IMSAI (with an iCom Frugal Floppy system -- the bank of my existence) runs CP/M 1.4. Then, of course, my Altair32 Emulator runs CP/M 2.2. On 4/18/07 12:24 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I assume that by "CP/M" we're talking about 8-bit CP/M and not CP/M > 68K or CP/M-86. > > I've got a few boxes, including Durango 800 and 900 series (which > also run MP/M) as well as a couple of S-100 boxes and probably some > things I've forgotten about. I'm not a collector; these are things > I've just accumulated over the years. > > I still use the occasional CP/M program (under emulation) run as part > of my regular development toolset. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From wizard at voyager.net Wed Apr 18 20:20:54 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:20:54 -0400 Subject: VM/386 In-Reply-To: <5EEAAF46-45E7-41FD-8279-8C595FA149AE@neurotica.com> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5EEAAF46-45E7-41FD-8279-8C595FA149AE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1176945655.1899.55.camel@linux.site> Thread was: Re: PC-MOS? On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 16:27 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > My office in 1988/1989 used a product called "VM/386 Multiuser" > which did a similar thing, using Wyse terminals. Most DOS apps > worked very well, and it was fast. It used the virtual '86 mode of > the 80386 processor. We ran it on a cached 386DX/25 with three > terminals. > > A very different sort of thing, and long after PC-MOS, but worth > mentioning. I'd love to find a copy of that again to play with; it > was good stuff. I would point out that VM/386 did NOT just run DOS -- any operating system could be loaded in a virtual machine, and run independently, along with DOS... or without DOS for that matter. I'm glad you liked it... It was written by some friends of mine in Okemos, Michigan. It was a remarkably stable environment -- I always thought they should have gotten rich and famous for their work. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 18 20:45:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:45:53 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Apr 18, 2007, at 3:47 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: > I think that's it at the moment, unless you'll let me count my > MicroVAX 2000 based upon my incomplete port of CP/M-68K I read about that awhile back. I think it is a wonderful (if somewhat twisted) idea. I would love to run it if you finish the port. > (got distracted > by World of Warcraft, which is also why I never finished building > my P112). They have pills for that now, you know. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Apr 18 21:10:40 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:10:40 -0400 Subject: ATR8000 Message-ID: <4626CFA0.8060901@hawkmountain.net> Since CP/M machine discussion came up... I have an ATR8000. In addition, it has a (forgot brand) board that goes between the cpu and the mainboard and gives it a SASI ? interface. I also have a Xebec bridgeboard (S1410?) to then convert that to MFM. The only thing I didn't get was the MFM drive (it had long since be recycled by the previous owner into a PC). What I never was able to figure out was how to low level format the HD ! I don't know that I have the formatter. (Either that or it is there and I simply don't know how to use it). I would love it if someone could fill in that long outstanding blank for me... Also, any idea if a SCSI drive could be hooked up in lieu of the Xebec and MFM drive ? I know SASI and SCSI1 are close... but I don't dare do this till I know it will work (don't want to toast the hardware). -- Curt From josefcub at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 21:14:08 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:14:08 -0500 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <202B70AD-3F75-4F5D-8BE9-39829D73B4B9@xlisper.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <9e2403920704180823n627f056axfb48b24cc9018e7f@mail.gmail.com> <202B70AD-3F75-4F5D-8BE9-39829D73B4B9@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920704181914p724a6dc2t210146325dde7d2f@mail.gmail.com> David, On 4/18/07, David Betz wrote: > On Apr 18, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Josef Chessor wrote: > I have two as well. What are the different ROM revisions? How can I > tell which revision I have in each of my machines? I don't think they're actually quantified anywhere as being different, but: One of my PX-8s "supports Y2K" (It allows 2007 entered as the year on initialization), the other does not. One (the one that supports Y2K) doesn't work with the multiwedge (64k/modem/ROM capsules), the "newer one" does. Both work with the 120k RAM wedge. The "look and feel" of the initialization routines between the two differ greatly. The "newer one" feels more polished, and has better bounds checking and editing with a slightly more descriptive interface. The older one is very bare, but functional. Other than that, the units are nearly identical on the inside, and both run the same software, either in capsule or downloaded form. Externally, the older unit says "Epson PX-8" on the LCD bezel. The newer one says "Epson Geneva". The older one was a gift from a dear friend, many years ago. The newer one was a trade between a local individual and myself, and had the DAK utilities ROM along with a lot more. (My older one only had WordStar and the first Utility ROM).. I can dig out my Genevas and post their initialization screens, if you like. Josef PS: Does anyone know where I can get those lovely little ROM carriers used as the ROM capsule carriers in the Geneva (and probably the TRS-80 Model 100?) I still have the software to make Geneva ROM images, and a ROM burner, but without a carrier, it's slightly pointless. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Apr 18 21:14:45 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:14:45 -0400 Subject: Altos 886 Message-ID: <4626D095.4060107@hawkmountain.net> I have an Altos 886... have had it for some time... unfortunately the hd doesn't access I'm looking for the diag? disk (with low level formatter) and OS floppies. Back when I got it, Acer referred me to a company supporting the old boxes. When they quoted me for a set of OS disks, I laughed at them (in my head). Now I'm wishing I had paid the money... but I didn't deem it worth while for a hobby/toy machine at the time... Now, all the companies that supported this stuff (that Acer has info on) are either out of business or haven't supported those boxes in ages (and have since disposed of all the material). I did find someone on another mailing list I am on who had one of these and the disks (and was fairly local to me), but before we ever could close the loop on any of this... his e-mail address (work addr) started bouncing as not a valid address... and he appears to have never rejoined that list with any other address..... (2nd miss on getting an OS for this old box). So.... anyone got an OS and/or diag diskette(s) for an Altos 886 ? (My best research so far seems to indicate that this box has a Xenix unique to itself (886 model only), and last ran Xenix 3.2f ?) Thanks, -- Curt From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Apr 18 21:21:24 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:21:24 -0300 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <01C78210.4F535F20@mse-d03> --------------- Original Message: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:28:14 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert Subject: Re: CP/M survey Just because I don't think it's been mentioned: Vector Graphic MZ (or are we not distinguishing between various S100 boxes..?) Given to me a few years ago but really haven't done much with it other than to power it up, boot CP/M from the solitary disk it came with and see that it will load & run BASIC from the disk. Seems to be a well-built S100 box, but with hard-sectored floppy drives and a 'unique' SSI/MSI disk controller. Also came with a 'really dumb' terminal: just the monitor and keyboard in a terminal case and all the terminal smarts on an S100 card back in the processor. ------------ Reply: Aw, and I was just going to mention my MZ (although mine uses a normal terminal). Also runs MDOS. Also several Cromemcos (Sys 1, Sys 3, CS-300, CS-420). Also run CDOS & Cromix. While on the subject of Cromemco and CP/M, does anyone have a late version of CP/M (i.e. 2.2 or later) running on a Cromemco and using a hard disk (IMI or ST412)? mike From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Apr 18 22:55:07 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <54057.61098.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <54057.61098.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Chris M wrote: > Could it access more then 64k under CP/M-80? Don't > you mean CP/M-86? Not to nit pick... > I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but I > was under the impression the 'bow could go up to 896k. > Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd party upgrade. The Rainbow had a Z80, which was responsible for some of the I/O. I think it ran the floppy disk. The CP/M-86 running on the Rainbow could launch CP/M-80 programs on the Z80. So the Rainbow was *both* a CP/M-86 and a CP/M-80 machine. I had no CP/M-86 software and found its CP/M-80 implementation disappointing (among other things, the IOBYTE wasn't implemented; the DECmate II implemented the IOBYTE even though the PDP-8 did all the I/O). The terminal emulation was also slow, although not as bad as the Pro350. I also tried to run MS-DOS on the Rainbow, but too much software required PC hardware. I knew I was in trouble when the *command line* version of Turbo C 2.0 could not run on the Rainbow because it required some IBM PC ROM BIOS calls. So I gave up on my Rainbow, and only regret it on those dark rainy days when I'm feeling particularly morose. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 16:17:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:17:40 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGP00DPYPRL88W5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:51:01 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 18 Apr 2007 at 12:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I doubt there's any shortage of CP/M capable hardware owned by people on the >> list - there's just a shortage of CP/M "hardcore" knowledge, because the >> systems don't get used often enough for people to remember the real nuts and >> bolts. > >....and how many of us could assemble a CP/M capable machine from >what's in our junkbox? Really, for a functional system, you'd need a >x80-capable processor, some RAM, a UART (if it's not already on the >processor chip) and an FDC (a WD1770/1772 will do just fine)--and a >bit of PROM to get it booted. I could do it in hearbeat, and have. I'd do the bios development on one of the existing long list of systems. All of my listed systems work especially the CP/M hardware. >At least that would be the case for CP/M 2.2. CP/M 3.0 (aka CP/M >Plus) is a bit more of a problem, as it involves support for things >such as time-of-day and bank-switching. The same goes for MP/M, >which also requires a timer interrupt. They will run on a minimal system but somethings will require the timer. >What there's not a lot of knowledge for are the CP/M "add-ons" such >as Display Manager and Access Manager and the networking (was it >CP/Net or something like that?). CPNet was a BDOSs that had complementary functions such that it would be a good client to MPM and it didn't really specify the physical layer (could be shared bus, serial or whatever). >I once redid a ROM set for an IBM PC so it would boot CP/M 80 when >equipped with a V20 CPU. I/O was handled in x88 mode. Since the V20 >supported the 8080 instruction set, did this qualify as a emulator or >not? Qualifies as an 8080! With a bunch of Pc hardware to impair it. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 16:28:47 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:28:47 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 44, Issue 47 Message-ID: <0JGP00EKMQA4QX91@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: cctech Digest, Vol 44, Issue 47 > From: "Barry Watzman" > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:22:44 -0400 > To: > > >> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007, woodelf wrote: >> >> On that subject, what operating systems did the H-11 support? I have >> one sitting in my collection, complete with paper-tape reader and 8" >> disk drives. Never had the space to set it up until recently. >> >>Steve >> >The only Heath disk operating system offered by Heath for the H-11 was >HT-11, which was a very slightly modified (dumbed down) version of DEC's >RT-11. The only disk system offered by Heath was the H-27, dual 8" [Memorex >SSSD] drives. Many customers wanted to buy genuine DEC RT-11, which would >run on the H-11/H-27, but it was about $2,500 (and the differences from >HT-11 to RT-11 were very, very few). HT-11 was "cheap", but it would only >run on the H-27, it would not work on a non-Heathkit DEC floppy disk system. >The H-27 had two modes, "Heath" and "DEC", to prevent HT-11 from being used >on non-Heath H-11's. A friend had one. HT11 was basically RT-11 V2 with V3.* was current. I have a card cage, lsi-11, memory and serial and parallel IO card set for an H11. Those were retirees when he went to a 11/23. HT11 would run on a RX02 though they didn't supply the DX driver (one from V2.5 worked fine!). Also the H27 disk system worked fine in any Qbus system when in rx01 emulation mode (using DX driver). >I don't recall if there was paper tape software for the H-11 or not (I think >that there was), but even if there was, no one used it very much. The Heath The paper tape software supplied was IOX or IO executive. It was a package of routines you could build a closed system around or maybe your own OS. >paper tape reader, the H-10, was a mechanically unreliable nightmare (mostly >the punch, the reader worked ok), but they are worth a lot of money today, >I've seen them go on E-Bay for over $600. The punch had a lot of problems and the reader had a cog that would go out of round. >HT-11/RT-11 was no prize; it was a low level contiguous file operating >system, less sophisticated even than CP/M, although it may have had some >better utilities (and, for those to whom it mattered, it was of course "more >DEC-like"). Rt-11 is still the same filesystem. However it's a useful realtime OS and has a very small footprint. >The H-27 was just two standard 8" drives in a case with a Z-80 based >intelligent controller (WD1771 disk controller chip) that talked to the H-11 >using what we would now call a "host adapter" over a proprietary >bi-directional parallel port. The interface and command set wasn't any of >the standards for this type of configuration (e.g. it wasn't SASI or SCSI), >but it used that type of architecture. For a number of years I used an H-27 >on an S-100 system with a Tarbell controller by simply disconnecting the >internal intelligent controller and running a 50-pin cable direct to the two >Memorex drives. They were Shugart SA-801 compatible, so it was an easy >configuration to use, the H-27 then being just two drives, a power supply >and a cabinet. The drives were notorious for broken media hub clamps. Also the H11 power supply tended to go poof easily. However for the price it was a huge leap up in performance over the general market S100 or SS50 machines of the day. Allison From mcwood at nefkom.net Wed Apr 18 16:52:31 2007 From: mcwood at nefkom.net (Marc Holz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:52:31 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computing places and surplus stores in L.A. Long Beach Area ? Message-ID: <001601c78203$ddebf650$af00a8c0@barbara> Hello Folks, I'm on a business trip to Long Beach, CA next week and would like to know whether someone could recommend me any vintage stores or other places in that area I should visit in my spare time. I mostly interested in DEC, CDC and Lispmachines or newer stuff like Suns or similar as well. Sadly, there no time for me to visit the CHM. Best Regards, Marc Holz From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 17:05:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:05:04 -0400 Subject: IDE Qbus controller (was TU-58s) Message-ID: <0JGP00AMPRYLF8W4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: IDE Qbus controller (was TU-58s) > From: Roger Ivie > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:40:41 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Allison wrote: >> Devices that arent MSCP like DD(tu58), DK(RX02), DY(RX02), >> DL(RL02) might make for examples. I'm fortunate to have >> the uncut sources on RL02. Unfortunately I'm not an >> experienced PDP-11 programmer. The upside is I have the >> RT-11 docset. > >You might take a look at the sources for the Pro350/380 hard >disk driver. IIRC (I did some mucking about with that driver, >although it has been years), the controller was quite similar to >the WD1010 stuff that eventually became IDE. >-- that is helpful info. I suspected there were other drivers that might be closer to the hardware then the MSCP route. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 18 17:24:59 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:24:59 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com Message-ID: <0JGP00IA2SVRGKC0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com > From: info > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:52:00 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me >a copy of the format.com. I think thats the floppy formatter. >I have a k10 without the kayplus bios and a new hard drive that needs formatting. I have download the kaypro disks from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. It may be an image of a bootable disk, IE: system tracks filled in. >I have a program called hdskfmt.com which I was told would work but >it is just a disk certify program. Thanks Does it certify or fail? Does it require a command line arguement to get to format? I thought the formatter for K10 hard disk was HDFMT as well. Allison From blakespot at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 19:51:05 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:51:05 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4b7d63a40704181751p33fb2dffi59f8244c7fee1961@mail.gmail.com> http://www.blakespot.com/list ( http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/ ) bp On 4/18/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. > > For a non-CP/M lover, I actually have a fair number (I am only > consdering CP/M-80). > > TRS-80 Model 4 (although I rarely run CP/M on it) > Commodore 128 > DEC Rainbow > Epson QX10 > Epson PX4 > Epson PX8 > CASU SUper C (This is a UK S100 box with a Persci 8" drive) > Intel MDS800 (does that count?) > BBC Model B qith a Z80 second processor > Bitto with a Torch Z80 board (this actually runs something called CP/N > which is darn similar) > Tatung Einstein (again, I only have Xtaldos for it, but I think it can > run true CP.M too) > RML 380Z > > And probably a couple more that I've forgotten about > > -tony > -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 19 01:34:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 02:34:41 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DC2D7D9-471E-494E-BC54-EF30002022D7@neurotica.com> On Apr 18, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting; did CP/M ship with a range of UART and FDC drivers > then, so you just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at > what port addresses, and away it goes? Or was it more complex than > that, and realistically you'd have to write your own comms / FDC > driver which exposed some defined interface to CP/M itself? The CP/M distribution, as shipped only boots & runs on one particular type of machine: an Intel MDS-800 development system. If you (or a computer manufacturer, say Kaypro for example) wanted your machine to run CP/M, and it wasn't exactly like the MDS-800 in terms of what I/O chips were used and at what addresses, you had to write the drivers to support your hardware. These drivers form the BIOS. CP/M was shipped with the intention that users would write their own BIOS code to support their own systems. In truth it is really not all that difficult. The BIOS interface is very simple and well-defined. Under the tutelage of an experienced mentor, I was writing BIOS code on my Imsai when I was about fourteen. It's nothing like the complexity of, say, a device driver system for an implementation of UNIX. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 01:35:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:35:31 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGP00DPYPRL88W5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGP00DPYPRL88W5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4626AB43.12982.222DD34C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2007 at 17:17, Allison wrote: >> I'd do the bios development on one of the existing long list of systems. > All of my listed systems work especially the CP/M hardware. Not me--I do it under emulation on a nice speedy windoze system. It's amazing how fast MAC will munch code running on a software emulator. > Qualifies as an 8080! With a bunch of Pc hardware to impair it. ;) Maybe, but ti couldn't run JRT Pascal. AFAIK, the only commercial product that ever used the bizarre coding sequence: LXI SP, PROC-1 CALL PROC i.e., the stack is stored just prior to the entry point. This throws the V20 into never-never land. I've got the technical bulletin from NEC that talks about this. There was no fix, AFAIK. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 02:20:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 03:20:51 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <4DC2D7D9-471E-494E-BC54-EF30002022D7@neurotica.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> <4DC2D7D9-471E-494E-BC54-EF30002022D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46271853.9010609@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 18, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Interesting; did CP/M ship with a range of UART and FDC drivers then, >> so you just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port >> addresses, and away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and >> realistically you'd have to write your own comms / FDC driver which >> exposed some defined interface to CP/M itself? > > The CP/M distribution, as shipped only boots & runs on one particular > type of machine: an Intel MDS-800 development system. If you (or a > computer manufacturer, say Kaypro for example) wanted your machine to > run CP/M, and it wasn't exactly like the MDS-800 in terms of what I/O > chips were used and at what addresses, you had to write the drivers to > support your hardware. These drivers form the BIOS. CP/M was shipped > with the intention that users would write their own BIOS code to support > their own systems. > > In truth it is really not all that difficult. The BIOS interface is > very simple and well-defined. Under the tutelage of an experienced > mentor, I was writing BIOS code on my Imsai when I was about fourteen. > It's nothing like the complexity of, say, a device driver system for an > implementation of UNIX. How does it differ? Aren't all drivers just fundamentally open, close, read, write and ioctl? Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 19 02:36:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:36:27 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <4626A93A.2060404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <462689DE.9080102@dunnington.plus.com> <4626A93A.2060404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46271BFB.8070608@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/04/2007 00:26, Jules Richardson wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I also have a couple of Teletext adapters for BBC micros, but alas no >> Prestel Adapter > > Noted. I've got one but it's right at the back of everything with around > 50 other Acorn machines in front of it (I kid you not) - at some point > I'll unearth it, and I don't see any particular reason to keep it. I'll probably never use it, but it might be nice to have. >> Sinclair ZX80 >> Sinclair ZX80 (with extra RAM) > > *two* of them? Make sure they don't breed :-) Ah, that's a typo. I have two ZX81s (one with extra RAM), and one ZX80. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cheri-post at web.de Thu Apr 19 05:16:37 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:16:37 +0200 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) Message-ID: <1950105983@web.de> Hi guys, as myself being a harddrive collector, this video really hurts alot ! Such clips should be forbidden... Regards, Pierre > > A nightmare is up on youtube. At least it hits me that way, as a full time > disk person. > > > > Billy > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQzGIqp4t8 > > _______________________________________________________________ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Thu Apr 19 05:53:43 2007 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:53:43 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20070419105342.GA14022@discordance.org.uk> On Wed, Apr 18, 2007 at 11:57:43AM +1000, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. > Hmm, afraid all I've got at the moment is a Commodore 64 with the CP/M cartridge.. would barely count even if it was still functional (which it wasn't last time I checked). From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Apr 19 06:54:17 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:54:17 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX I back panel with KDJ11-B? Message-ID: I seem to have my PDP-11 system running pretty well although it is still using a borrowed RX33 drive from a DECmate III+. I'm now looking to assemble it into a decent looking box. I'm using a BA23 that started life as a MicroVAX I and so it has a back panel from an MVI. Can I use the module labeled "FUNCT SEL/SLU MODULE" from the MVI with the KDJ11-B processor? This is the module that has a rotary switch for selecting the baud rate and a jack to plug the console into along with a switch to control the power up mode and a display to show the CPU status. Will the MVII panel work with the KDJ11-B processor? Also, does anyone have a PDP-11 badge for the front of the machine that I can use to replace the one that says MicroVAX I? Thanks! David From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Apr 19 07:08:11 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: >> > >> >Subject: CP/M survey >> > From: Mark Tapley >> > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but >> that's irrelevant to CP/M-80). >> >> Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it >> was a dual CPU (has a z80). >> >> Allison > > Could it access more then 64k under CP/M-80? Don't > you mean CP/M-86? Not to nit pick... > I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but I >was under the impression the 'bow could go up to 896k. >Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd party upgrade. I think Mark was trying to say that an 8-bit CP/M program on the Rainbow can only access 64k RAM, which is true, under Rainbow CP/M-86/80. A 16-bit program could access all of the Rainbow's system RAM under CP/M. And he's also right about the memory. A 100A maxed out at 832k, while a 100B/100+ maxed out at 896k. This is because 100A models shipped with 128k on the motherboard, while 100B/100+ models shipped with 192k. So when a maxed-out ram expansion card was installed, the 100A still had 64k less than an equivalent 100B/100+. One interesting thing about 16-bit programs on CP/M-86/80 on the Rainbow was that some were confused by too much RAM. The most notable examples are all the Rainbow ports of Infocom adventures; they all complain about "not enough memory" if you have more than 512k or something like that. Jeff Armstrong jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 07:17:51 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 05:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for sparcbook/RDI powerlite/etc Message-ID: <317160.92591.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, Looking for any sparc based laptop (eg sparcbook, powerlite/etc). Anything considered? Running out of space - so need to condense my sparc's down a bit :) Cheers Ian __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bob at jfcl.com Thu Apr 19 08:07:22 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:07:22 -0700 Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c78283$ac221570$0201a8c0@Rhyme> > Ethan Dicks (ethan.dicks at gmail.com) wrote: > I had a vague idea that I didn't want the switch in the extended > (Heath) position, but I didn't know the specific > consequences. The [W]H-27 drives were both the best and the most disappointing part of the H-11 system. BTW, the H-27 was the Heathkit build-it-yourself drive, and the WH-27 was the ZDS already assembled version. AFAIK they were otherwise identical. There's a toggle switch on the front of the drive for "Extended" or "RX-01" mode. RX-01 mode is completely DEC compatible, and will run RT-11 just fine, but note that "RX-01" really means RX01 - not RX02. Yes, the [W]H-27 can read/write 512K diskettes, but not in DEC compatible mode. Bummer! In extended mode the drive could handle 512K diskettes, and it was capable of other miracles such as the ability to format a completely blank diskette. Yes, most people would not be impressed by a drive that can format diskettes, but real DEC RX01/2 users never knew this joy. So the bottom line is that if you want to run standard RT-11 on the H-11, you have to set the switch to RX-01 mode and you have the equivalent of an RX01 drive. No double density, and no formatting. Now, HT-11 worked in extended mode and HT-11 also had a program that could format diskettes. Since HT-11 was basically RT-11, one would think that you could just install the WH-27 device driver and format program on a RT-11 system and have something that worked in extended mode, but I've never tried that. Actually, I don't know what's become of the Heath specific software for the H-11, such as the WH-27 driver and the format program. Maybe somebody has an archive somewhere? Bob From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 19 02:33:35 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:33:35 +0100 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <1176968015.18413.5.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 16:09 -0700, Billy Pettit wrote: > A nightmare is up on youtube. At least it hits me that way, as a full time > disk person. > > Billy > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQzGIqp4t8 Well you'd better not watch this one, then. My old CD writer (which cost me 250 quid new) has burnt its last coaster. When its success rate dropped from 30% to 0% of successful writes (yes, two disks in three were dud, from when it was six months old - prior to that it had been about 1 dud in four), I decided to put it out of our misery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 06:36:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:36:54 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGQ00J8ZTJFS476@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:43:45 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 18 Apr 2007 at 12:28, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> I doubt there's any shortage of CP/M capable hardware owned by people on the >>> list - there's just a shortage of CP/M "hardcore" knowledge, because the >>> systems don't get used often enough for people to remember the real nuts and >>> bolts. >> >> ...and how many of us could assemble a CP/M capable machine from >> what's in our junkbox? Really, for a functional system, you'd need a >> x80-capable processor, some RAM, a UART (if it's not already on the >> processor chip) and an FDC (a WD1770/1772 will do just fine)--and a >> bit of PROM to get it booted. > >Interesting; did CP/M ship with a range of UART and FDC drivers then, so you >just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port addresses, and >away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and realistically you'd have >to write your own comms / FDC driver which exposed some defined interface to >CP/M itself? No. The bios was the interface between CP/M core and the hardware and it was hardware specific. So if you created a new system with new hardware you needed a new bios. CP/M bios writing once understood was fairly reasonable task. >> What there's not a lot of knowledge for are the CP/M "add-ons" such >> as Display Manager and Access Manager and the networking (was it >> CP/Net or something like that?). > >Hmm, one of my Research Machines (RML) systems has the networking add-ons; I >think they called their implementation Z-net. Clients have enough ROM-resident >code to invoke some form of network boot from the server - what I'm not sure >is whether the OS image transfer is part of core "network aware CP/M" or >whether that's a Research Machines extension (with the core stuff only really >providing network-aware file services). > >The manuals are rather buried at the moment, but I seem to recall that they >weren't exactly big on details anyway (RML were great at producing hardware >documentation, but not so hot at writing down how the software side worked) Unfortunatly that was common in smaller companies. There were those that thought some aspect of their system should be "secret" to prevent copying. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 06:41:26 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:41:26 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGQ005XCTQZERX1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: Chris M > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:10:05 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >--- Allison wrote: > >> > >> >Subject: CP/M survey >> > From: Mark Tapley >> > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but >> that's irrelevant to CP/M-80). >> >> Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it >> was a dual CPU (has a z80). >> >> Allison > > Could it access more then 64k under CP/M-80? Don't >you mean CP/M-86? Not to nit pick... No. However there was software to use the 8088 and the bulk ram as a ramdisk. CP/M80 (other than V3) didnt care there was more than 64k, Applications that ran under it (mutiplan, Dbase, others) didn't care there was more than 64k (z80 address space) as they were all written back when 64k was a BIG system and MMUs were uncommon. > I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but I >was under the impression the 'bow could go up to 896k. >Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd party upgrade. The Rainbow was one of the few that could beat the 640k limits. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 08:31:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:31:25 -0400 Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) In-Reply-To: <000001c78283$ac221570$0201a8c0@Rhyme> References: <000001c78283$ac221570$0201a8c0@Rhyme> Message-ID: On 4/19/07, Robert Armstrong wrote: > The [W]H-27 drives were both the best and the most disappointing part of > the H-11 system... > Yes, most people would not be impressed by a drive that can format > diskettes, but real DEC RX01/2 users never knew this joy. And, except for Rainbow uses, most RX50 users never knew this joy, either. At least the RX01 format was standard, and one could use a CP/M machine or something else to drop the IBM 3740-compatible low-level format on a blank disc. In practice, though, I just remember folks buying pre-formatted media. Fortunately, I still have a couple of NOS boxes, presuming they haven't self-destructed on the (dry) shelf. I got them from a friend who used to run a computer media store (paper, ribbons, diskettes, etc.). He had hundreds of pounds of 8" diskettes of various flavors. He didn't know what to do with the ones marked "DEC compatible", so he gave them to me when sales were disappointing. Unfortunately, he pitched the whole lot out over ten years ago because he was tired of looking at them. I was out of the country, or perhaps he would have asked me to come by and collect them. > So the bottom line is that if you want to run standard RT-11 on the H-11, > you have to set the switch to RX-01 mode and you have the equivalent of an > RX01 drive. No double density, and no formatting. Right... I know I was using real RX01 media, RT-11 v4.0, so I know I wasn't getting tripped up by RX02 issues. > Now, HT-11 worked in extended mode and HT-11 also had a program that could > format diskettes. Since HT-11 was basically RT-11, one would think that you > could just install the WH-27 device driver and format program on a RT-11 > system and have something that worked in extended mode, but I've never tried > that. Perhaps, but, then again, with a "custom" OS, there might have been some check somewhere in the Monitor to enforce compliance. It will be interesting to take apart the OS and see where the differences lie. One could then, presumably, build a patch kit to "transform" a genuine RT-11 kit into HT-11, as folks already do with various versions of Infocom adventures (i.e. - *you* get a legitimate copy of the game file, then acquire and apply patches to it to turn it into the different release versions of the game. Since the patches are based on a known quantity and aren't themselves the game, they are made freely available) > Actually, I don't know what's become of the Heath specific software for > the H-11, such as the WH-27 driver and the format program. Maybe somebody > has an archive somewhere? I have never seen one, but another list member has offered to send me some H-11 media. Once I get things working, I'll see about archiving it. Thanks for all the great info, Bob. -ethan From g at kurico.com Thu Apr 19 08:36:59 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:36:59 -0500 Subject: Garriott and others to donate to UT game archive Message-ID: <4627707B.5050709@kurico.com> That would be UT as in the University of Texas, Austin. http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/04/19/19archive.html George From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Apr 19 08:54:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:54:44 -0300 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <1176968015.18413.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <0ca201c7828a$5fa11b40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Well you'd better not watch this one, then. My old CD writer (which cost > me > 250 quid new) has burnt its last coaster. When its success rate dropped > from 30% to 0% of successful writes (yes, two disks in three were dud, > from when it was six months old - prior to that it had been about 1 dud > in four), I decided to put it out of our misery. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ Nah, too boring! Next time let the sacred spirits of conan, the barbarian, dominate you and do it with a sledgehammer! ;oD From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Thu Apr 19 08:56:47 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:56:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) Message-ID: Greetings Geeks & Geekettes; I'm looking for a small pile of Commodore gear for a project a friend of mine and I are putting together for this year's Chicago Commodore Expo (which means a deadline of August or so). I'm after: Commodore 64s (any case style) Commodore 128s (pref. not the beefy DCRs to save on shipping) Disk drives (any type) Power bricks for the above (drives & machines) Associated cabling Game carts (see below) All of the above will be treated with respect and neither dismantled (unless it was already broken, although I'd very much prefer working gear) nor sold on, and will be part of a unique project which you'll all be detailed on when the time looms near (Ooooo, hush, hush, exciting isn't it?). Except the game carts - which I'm cannabalising for their connectors, which seem to be darned expensive on their own - so if you have broken carts, even better! I'd also like to find a monitor, as my own one is back in New Zealand and out of reach right now, and for the life of me I can't seem to find either my DIN->composite cables nor any of the blasted RF boxes that seem to accumulate in every corner _until_ you're looking for one. I'm looking for people who are willing to let this go for shipping only (I'm not exactly made of money, but is anyone?) on the guarantee that there will be no ignominious end to the equipment and the knowledge that it will be used for a very cool multi-CPU project. I'm based in the US (50441), by the way, and I'll probably keep my shipping costs down by only taking up offers by US based people, but please let me know. Thank you all! JP Hindin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 09:11:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <01C78210.4F535F20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <136061.48921.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- M H Stein wrote: > --------------- Original Message: > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:28:14 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: CP/M survey > > Just because I don't think it's been mentioned: > > Vector Graphic MZ I know where a batch of *this* stuff is located, uh, I think in Kentucky. It appears to be a little on the rough side, and I'm not positive what it is exactly (the MZ seems to ring a bell though, but I won't swear). If anyone's interested, I could put you in contact. But currently I think the owner is having modestly delusional notions about it's value... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 09:21:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGQ005XCTQZERX1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <873448.82086.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > > I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but > I > >was under the impression the 'bow could go up to > 896k. > >Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd > party upgrade. > > The Rainbow was one of the few that could beat the > 640k limits. > > Allison Actually it was atypical for the wild and free pseudo compatibles types to not break it. Curious if the Rainbow was any better/worse at running 8 bit CP/M then other hybrid machines, like the Zenith Z-100 series, Epson QX-10 w/Titan 8088 (in essence a QX-16),...(yikes I've heard worse, but everyone's entitled to their opinion). I guess I could just try it! Some home renovations has *exposed* my rather tiny and cute Rainbow monitor the other day LOL LOL. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 09:24:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <206675.49508.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeffrey Armstrong wrote: > And he's also right about the memory. A 100A maxed > out at 832k, while a > 100B/100+ maxed out at 896k. This is because 100A > models shipped with > 128k on the motherboard, while 100B/100+ models > shipped with 192k. So > when a maxed-out ram expansion card was installed, > the 100A still had 64k > less than an equivalent 100B/100+. So I guess we have to conclude the B model is radically different from the A. No chance of adding that extra 64k in the case of an A? Of course anything is possible, but is it practical? Unfortunately my 'bow hasn't been exhumed as of yet. Perhaps when we begin work on the kitchen LOL. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 19 09:48:44 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:48:44 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54 In-Reply-To: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Sometimes brevity is the soul of confusion.... At 20:42 -0500 4/18/07, Allison wrote: >Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it was a dual CPU (has a z80). At 20:42 -0500 4/18/07, Pat wrote: >I'd imagine that Mark meant that the amount of memory (832k) was >irrelevant to CP/M-80. At 20:42 -0500 4/18/07, Chris wrote: > Could it access more then 64k under CP/M-80? Don't >you mean CP/M-86? Not to nit pick... > I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but I >was under the impression the 'bow could go up to 896k. >Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd party upgrade. Pat's right, I meant the 8080/Z-80 form of CP/M would (I think) not access anything above 64k for the Z-80. I remember thinking it would be a neat hack to make the other 768k into a RAMdisk for CP/M on the Z-80, using the 8088 to serve it. Allison's right too, CP/M-80/86 would access the full 832k (or 896k in a B model) for the 8088 processor to run (and I think that's the original OS supplied with the machine, though MS-DOS was also available). Rainbow PC-100A could not be (I know, and I don't mean that as a challenge - I'm just talking about factory-supplied options...) expanded beyond 832k RAM, and the 8087 coprocessor card mine uses was one of the few ways to expand that far. PC-100B and PC-100+ (The latter with a hard drive and controller and a different badge, but otherwise identical to a B) both could be expanded up to 896k RAM. In any case, thanks for the clarification(s)! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From info at harrells.net Thu Apr 19 08:35:03 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:35:03 -0400 Subject: errors in disk images (was Kapro 10 format.com) In-Reply-To: <200704190047.l3J0luQv015023@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704190047.l3J0luQv015023@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46277007.5030201@harrells.net> Yes that is the one I'm talking about. It was suppose to be system disk two but it's plan.com(multiplan)more of an application. I do have the new hard formatted and will let Dave what the problem is so we can resolve it or just educate me. I'm doing the reload now so I'm off and running I was able to find a hdskfmt program that did format it. I'm not totally sure about the size or version so I'll get back to everyone with k10. I did try the hdskfmt on disk one and it just failed after hitting the new drive. It looked like it expected a formated hard drive and found one that wasn't. This new one I used hit the drive and then formated each track and then verified it. The HDSKFMT.COM on image disk one I had used two times before on a failing drive and it never formatted the drive and only verified the disk as all the files on the drive were still there after it finished. The new(used) ST225 which I got which was verified to be good and but needed a low level format. Let me look into it more and I'll get back to everyone and in the mean time I can offer help to other K10 users possibly . Ralph is sending me a kayplus eprom to try so I'll be able to use the entire disk space. I really need to get my S-100 eprom burner working. As you indicated Dave one just made a image of there newer hard drive system and not the older floppy system disk that came with the unit. I'm glad to have the newer images as someone took alot of time creating them. These are version G which I believe was the last version offered. I'll create a image and sent it to you Dave and we can label it other utilities maybe. I'll use your image program(IMD) and not the TD0 format as that seem to be more stable Dave Dunfield wrote: >> > I have download the kaypro disks >> > from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. >> >> It is REALLY REALLY important that you tell Dave, or other archivists >> when errors are found in disc images. >> >> One of the most difficult things to do is to verify that a distribution >> disc still contains good copies of what it claims to on the label. >> > > Here Here! (Thats a Canadian way of saying absolutely, wholeheartedly, > I agree, listen to what the smart man is saying). > > I've archived many disk sets for which I don't have a system to view > the disk on, and in many cases I don't have the system up and running > yet anyway (Archiving the disks is pretty much the FIRST thing that I > do). In other cases, the disk images are submissions from others (much > appreciated) and I have no way to verify their content. > > In general, it is best to correspond with me and I will do my best to > rectify the problem - In this case I heard nothing, until I happened > to notice Als comment. > > It might seem that the archive just makes and maintains itself, but > the truth is that it just ain't so - No doubt you will find problems > and errors ... sorry, but it's the best I can do given the funding > ($0) and time requirements (lots). Best thing to do is be a part of > it - let me in on the details, and we can work on improving it. > > For example, It would be helpful to know WHICH set of kaypro disks is > in error, as I have several posted to the site. I've just gone through > all four kaypro sets that I have posted with IMDV and found that the > string 'multiplan' occurs only on the KAYII03.IMD image from the > Kaypro 3*83 set, which is labled "CP/M application" - seems pretty > reasonable to me. > > Disk 2 of the Kaypro10 set has "PLAN.COM" and "MP*.*" files which could > be multiplan - but it also has several other programs. It is labeled > "System disk 2", so perhaps it's the one you are talking about? > > The Kaypro10 archive was submitted by a third party (I don't have a K10, > nor any disks for it) - I've never seen the original disk labels - judging > by the organization of the README file, it appears that the disks were made > from user areas on a hard drive, not from original install media. I really > don't know how they are organized - perhaps the originator of the archive > consided these "system files". > > I suspect that if you go through all the disk images, you will find the > files that you need. It would be worthwhile to have information that I can > add to the archive detailing what is found where and what is missing... > (Hint - be a part of it!). > > Thats all the material I have, so I can't do much about the actual > content, however I can insert notes into the README file indicating > potentional problems, and asking for someone with a set of original > Kaypro 10 install media to image them .. With luck we can improve on > things. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 08:48:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:48:31 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGQ00IYCZMQGZN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:35:31 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 18 Apr 2007 at 17:17, Allison wrote: > >>> I'd do the bios development on one of the existing long list of >systems. >> All of my listed systems work especially the CP/M hardware. > >Not me--I do it under emulation on a nice speedy windoze system. >It's amazing how fast MAC will munch code running on a software >emulator. :) I do have Myz80 and Dave Dunfeilds NS Horizon emulator as tools for when I'm purely messing with code. But when I have a hefty 10mhz z80 S100 crate next to the PC with solid tools and a good programmer in it why mess with a PC. >> Qualifies as an 8080! With a bunch of Pc hardware to impair it. ;) > >Maybe, but ti couldn't run JRT Pascal. AFAIK, the only commercial >product that ever used the bizarre coding sequence: > > LXI SP, PROC-1 > CALL PROC JRT Pascal was Z80 code if memory serves. But LXI SP, value is valid as the arithmetic is done at compile time not execution. Loading a stack address prior to a call is ok if you need to recover the stack content (for recursion or some such) but I'd expect prior code to save/restore the stack or the routine making the call will return to nowhere. I've seen a lot of code that mucks with the stack in the past and it's ok if you remember your return addresses are on that pile! I've not encounterd this problem with V20. That sequence is not so strange to me. though I've not used JRT Pascal (or many other high level) tools on a V20 because I haven't found that a V20 XT PC to be all that great compared to a 4mhz z80. I have been meaning to try the Tandy 1000HX which has a V20 and see if thats better. In the end running an 8080 (V20) when I have Z80 or even fast(6mhz HmosII) 8085s is sort of less than interesting. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 09:28:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:28:42 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGR00I9V1HQH3R3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 03:20:51 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Apr 18, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Interesting; did CP/M ship with a range of UART and FDC drivers then, >>> so you just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port >>> addresses, and away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and >>> realistically you'd have to write your own comms / FDC driver which >>> exposed some defined interface to CP/M itself? >> >> The CP/M distribution, as shipped only boots & runs on one particular >> type of machine: an Intel MDS-800 development system. If you (or a >> computer manufacturer, say Kaypro for example) wanted your machine to >> run CP/M, and it wasn't exactly like the MDS-800 in terms of what I/O >> chips were used and at what addresses, you had to write the drivers to >> support your hardware. These drivers form the BIOS. CP/M was shipped >> with the intention that users would write their own BIOS code to support >> their own systems. >> >> In truth it is really not all that difficult. The BIOS interface is >> very simple and well-defined. Under the tutelage of an experienced >> mentor, I was writing BIOS code on my Imsai when I was about fourteen. >> It's nothing like the complexity of, say, a device driver system for an >> implementation of UNIX. > >How does it differ? Aren't all drivers just fundamentally open, close, >read, write and ioctl? Not under CP/M. this is the bios call entry table. ; ; perform following functions ; boot cold start ; wboot warm start (save i/o byte) ; (boot and wboot are the same for mds) ; const console status ; reg-a = 00 if no character ready ; reg-a = ff if character ready ; conin console character in (result in reg-a) ; conout console character out (char in reg-c) ; list list out (char in reg-c) ; punch punch out (char in reg-c) ; reader paper tape reader in (result to reg-a) ; home move to track 00 ; ; (the following calls set-up the io parameter block for the ; mds, which is used to perform subsequent reads and writes) ; seldsk select disk given by reg-c (0,1,2...) ; settrk set track address (0,...76) for subsequent read/write ; setsec set sector address (1,...,26) for subsequent read/write ; setdma set subsequent dma address (initially 80h) ; ; (read and write assume previous calls to set up the io parameters) ; read read track/sector to preset dma address ; write write track/sector from preset dma address ; ; jump vector for indiviual routines jmp boot wboote: jmp wboot jmp const jmp conin jmp conout jmp list jmp punch jmp reader jmp home jmp seldsk jmp settrk jmp setsec jmp setdma jmp read jmp write jmp listst ;list status jmp sectran ; The relevent ones for char IO are conin, conout, constat, list, listst, punch, reader. Disk or any block addressable device is seldsk, settrk, setsec, setdma, read, write and sectran. While the names are descriptive they do not adaquately tell you what the task is. For example SELDSK selects a disk and to do that was do several things like save the number of the drive to be used and return a pointer to a table (DPH or disk parameter table) of addresses of information and scratch areas needed for that disk. One very important address in that table is the DPblock which actually descibes the size, CHS organization and allocation block size of the reference drive. The BDOS uses these to compute the calls to seltrk(set track) and selsec(set sector) that will be used for reading or writing. These are in unix terms the very rawest level device calls. What CP/M is/does is provice three major functions. CCP, console command processor and simple monitor that is the user interface. BDOS, this does "high level" stuff like open a file, get a char, put a char put a char to list device and other filesystem and IO sundries. BIOS, this is the layer that translates a standard set of calls from the BDOS to perform things that are very hardware specific. Modern term is hardware abstraction layer. The bios tried to make the various different disk controllers and connected disks and serial/parallel devices looks like very standardized but elementary IO. What you call a driver in *nix is the BDOS level calls in CP/M for equivilent level of functionality. included is the BDOS command dispatch table from CP/M2 (8080): ; ; command dispatch table DISTBL: DEFW WBOOTF ; 0: System reset DEFW REDCON ; 1: Console input DEFW WRTCON ; 2: Console output DEFW XRQ ; 3: Reader input DEFW XRQ ; 4: Punch output DEFW LISTF ; 5: List output DEFW DIRTIO ; 6: Direct console I/O DEFW GETIOB ; 7: Get I/O Byte DEFW PUTIOB ; 8: Set I/O Byte DEFW PRNBUF ; 9: Print string DEFW REDBUF ; 10: Read console buffer DEFW GCSTAT ; 11: Get console status DEFW GETVER ; 12: Return version number DEFW RESET ; 13: Reset disk system DEFW LOGIN ; 14: Select disk DEFW OPEN ; 15: Open file DEFW CLOSE ; 16: Close file DEFW SEAR1 ; 17: Search for first DEFW SEARN ; 18: Search for next DEFW DELETE ; 19: Delete file DEFW READ ; 20: Read sequential DEFW WRITE ; 21: Write sequential DEFW CREATE ; 22: Make file DEFW RENAME ; 23: Rename file DEFW GLOGIN ; 24: Return login vector DEFW GETDRV ; 25: Return current disk DEFW DMASET ; 26: Set DMA address DEFW GALLOC ; 27: Get addr (alloc) DEFW MAKRO ; 28: Write protect disk DEFW GROVEC ; 29: Get R/O vector DEFW SETATT ; 30: Set file attributes DEFW GETPAR ; 31: Get addr (disk parms) DEFW MODUSR ; 32: Set/Get user code DEFW REDRND ; 33: Read random DEFW WRTRND ; 34: Write random DEFW FILSIZ ; 35: Compute file size DEFW SETRND ; 36: Set random record DEFW RESDRV ; 37: Reset drive DEFW XRQ ; 38: Undefined - go back DEFW XRQ ; 39: Undefined - go back DEFW ZERRND ; 40: Fill random file w/ zeros ; To wrap up: The cpm prompt A:>edit fred.txt causes the CCP to do this>> call bdos open and see if edit exists, if it does it does several read sequential andd loads the read file startin at 100h in memory and jumps to it. *runs edit* That program calls the bdos open to see if fred.txt exits, if yes it loads it's buffer(s) as needed with further bdos calls. IF not then it may create a file entry and allocate a block to it for future storage use. Of course the bdos makes a pile of calls to gets and put characters, check the console device for any keys pressed and outputting characters as well as disk related IO. Very un *nix like. Likely more than anyone wanted to know but while CP/M is pervasive not everyone is familiar or familiar to the code level. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 09:33:16 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:33:16 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGR00I2E1PBGWS3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: Jeffrey Armstrong > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:08:11 +0000 (UTC) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >>> > >>> >Subject: CP/M survey >>> > From: Mark Tapley >>> > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0500 >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> > >>> >DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but >>> that's irrelevant to CP/M-80). >>> >>> Not true as the rainbow also ran CP/M-80/88 as it >>> was a dual CPU (has a z80). >>> >>> Allison >> >> Could it access more then 64k under CP/M-80? Don't >> you mean CP/M-86? Not to nit pick... >> I don't know about specific Rainbow revisions, but I >>was under the impression the 'bow could go up to 896k. >>Maybe I'm thinking of the Tandy 2000 via an 3rd party upgrade. > >I think Mark was trying to say that an 8-bit CP/M program on the Rainbow >can only access 64k RAM, which is true, under Rainbow CP/M-86/80. A >16-bit program could access all of the Rainbow's system RAM under CP/M. Of course and I referred to that. What I avoid trying to do was say, hey it's a Z80 and 8bitters like 8080 and Z80 without only address 64k. Granted you can hang bank hardware on them and extend but the addressing is still only 64k. >And he's also right about the memory. A 100A maxed out at 832k, while a >100B/100+ maxed out at 896k. This is because 100A models shipped with >128k on the motherboard, while 100B/100+ models shipped with 192k. So >when a maxed-out ram expansion card was installed, the 100A still had 64k >less than an equivalent 100B/100+. > >One interesting thing about 16-bit programs on CP/M-86/80 on the Rainbow >was that some were confused by too much RAM. The most notable examples >are all the Rainbow ports of Infocom adventures; they all complain about >"not enough memory" if you have more than 512k or something like that. Unlike PCs were 640k was all there was. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 09:41:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:41:18 -0400 Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) Message-ID: <0JGR00J1B22PS7M7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:31:25 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/19/07, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> The [W]H-27 drives were both the best and the most disappointing part of >> the H-11 system... > >> Yes, most people would not be impressed by a drive that can format >> diskettes, but real DEC RX01/2 users never knew this joy. > >And, except for Rainbow uses, most RX50 users never knew this joy, either. Other than Robin (Vt180), Rainbow and Vaxmate (sorta PC) formatting a disk was unheard of. The first vax widely available that could format it's hard disk or a floppy was the Microvax-2000 without resorting to diagnotic software kits (MDM for VAX or XXDP for PDP11). >> So the bottom line is that if you want to run standard RT-11 on the H-11, >> you have to set the switch to RX-01 mode and you have the equivalent of an >> RX01 drive. No double density, and no formatting. >Perhaps, but, then again, with a "custom" OS, there might have been >some check somewhere in the Monitor to enforce compliance. It will be >interesting to take apart the OS and see where the differences lie. >One could then, presumably, build a patch kit to "transform" a genuine >RT-11 kit into HT-11, as folks already do with various versions of >Infocom adventures (i.e. - *you* get a legitimate copy of the game >file, then acquire and apply patches to it to turn it into the >different release versions of the game. Since the patches are based >on a known quantity and aren't themselves the game, they are made >freely available) It was simpler than that. It was an old version of RT11 and from that version to current the driver structure apparently is different enough to not work. However if you used drivers from V2.x HT11 was happy. >I have never seen one, but another list member has offered to send me >some H-11 media. Once I get things working, I'll see about archiving >it. I'd have to dig as I have media and tu58 tape that overlaps that timeframe and OS use. Not anytime soon as I'm ripping the room apart to build a new desk in. Allison From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 10:20:28 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:20:28 -0400 Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0704190820s4c893d0bn244b62e85a49d04a@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, JP Hindin wrote: > Except the game carts - which I'm cannabalising for their connectors, > which seem to be darned expensive on their own - so if you have broken > carts, even better! Ummm, aren't those just .1" spaced contact two-sided card-edges? My memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember taking prototype boards with 100 "tongues" per side (what _is_ the proper word?) and using a hacksaw to cut off the required amount and shape (22 per side?) to fit the expansion port shape. It would also be a lot easier to solder to.... (The proto boards may have been custom to the place I was working for...) Joe. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 19 11:22:27 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:22:27 -0500 Subject: errors in disk images (was Kapro 10 format.com) In-Reply-To: <46277007.5030201@harrells.net> References: <200704190047.l3J0luQv015023@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704191527.l3JFRV5Z005362@mail1.magma.ca> > Yes that is the one I'm talking about. It was suppose to be system disk > two but it's plan.com(multiplan)more of an application. I do have the > new hard formatted and will let Dave what the problem is so we can > resolve it or just educate me. I'm doing the reload now so I'm off and > running I was able to find a hdskfmt program that did format it. I'm not > totally sure about the size or version so I'll get back to everyone with > k10. I did try the hdskfmt on disk one and it just failed after hitting > the new drive. It looked like it expected a formated hard drive and > found one that wasn't. This new one I used hit the drive and then > formated each track and then verified it. The HDSKFMT.COM on image disk > one I had used two times before on a failing drive and it never > formatted the drive and only verified the disk as all the files on the > drive were still there after it finished. The new(used) ST225 which I > got which was verified to be good and but needed a low level format. Let > me look into it more and I'll get back to everyone and in the mean time > I can offer help to other K10 users possibly . Ralph is sending me a > kayplus eprom to try so I'll be able to use the entire disk space. I > really need to get my S-100 eprom burner working. > As you indicated Dave one just made a image of there newer hard drive > system and not the older floppy system disk that came with the unit. I'm > glad to have the newer images as someone took alot of time creating > them. These are version G which I believe was the last version offered. > I'll create a image and sent it to you Dave and we can label it other > utilities maybe. I'll use your image program(IMD) and not the TD0 format > as that seem to be more stable That would be excellent - As I noted above, I don't have a K10 or any of the disks that are represented by the images, so I can't really change whats there, however if you can provide an image with the better HDSKFMT program and any other extra material you have rounded up that would be good. Also, if you have any notes on what you had to do and where you had to find/put things please include them (as a TXT file) and I will add it to the archive as well - this might save someone else a lot of time. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 10:48:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:48:40 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46271853.9010609@gmail.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4DC2D7D9-471E-494E-BC54-EF30002022D7@neurotica.com>, <46271853.9010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46272CE8.20338.24283C3E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 3:20, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How does it differ? Aren't all drivers just fundamentally open, close, > read, write and ioctl? Well, CP/M 2.2 have no "open" and "close" function, just read and write--single character for character devices and a single 128 byte block for mass storage. The closest thing to ioctl is the "select unit", "set track" and "set sector" entry points. While BDOS supports open and close functions, it's entirely up to the user to track open files--the BDOS doesn't contain so much as a list of open files. Early MS-DOS operated the same way--using FCBs for file I/O like CP/M. Directories are, of course, flat, though you could qualify entries with a "User area" field that was not considered to be part of the filename. Allocation information is kept with each directory name entry; when a file got large enough, another directory "extent" was allocated. There was a very firm upper limit (implementation defined) on the number of files one could have on a volume. IIRC, the upper limit on disk storage was about 8 MB per volume. One needn't worry about reentrancy, multiple character/block requests or interrupts. Everything's done with a jump vector table; since CP/M is non-multitasking, management of driver data is simple. If you were dealing with disks with sector sizes larger than 128 bytes, some write-behind, read-ahead logic was unavoidable, but even there, the BDOS would help out by signifying if the read was for a directory block or the write was for a newly-allocated block. If you had sufficient RAM to do full track reads and writes, you could often improve the speed of CP/M I/O significantly. Disk volume tracking was done using a simple "checksum" on a installation-defined number of directory entries. If a disk was changed unexpectedly, the BDOS responded by setting its status to Read-Only and displaying an error. Later versions of CP/M supported multi-block I/O and file date and time stamps. Cheers, Chuck From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Thu Apr 19 11:07:27 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:07:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704190820s4c893d0bn244b62e85a49d04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 19/04/07, JP Hindin wrote: > > Except the game carts - which I'm cannabalising for their connectors, > > which seem to be darned expensive on their own - so if you have broken > > carts, even better! > > Ummm, aren't those just .1" spaced contact two-sided card-edges? My > memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember taking prototype boards > with 100 "tongues" per side (what _is_ the proper word?) and using a > hacksaw to cut off the required amount and shape (22 per side?) to fit > the expansion port shape. It would also be a lot easier to solder > to.... > > (The proto boards may have been custom to the place I was working for...) Ugh, I seemed to be doped up this morning. I was meaning the connectors for the EXPANSION port, not game cartridges which, as you say, have tongues and not slot headers. The appropriate broken carts I would be looking for would be REUs and similar for these headers. My apologies for the confusion! JP From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 11:25:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:25:46 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGQ00IYCZMQGZN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGQ00IYCZMQGZN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4627359A.31850.244A396D@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 9:48, Allison wrote: > >Maybe, but it couldn't run JRT Pascal. AFAIK, the only commercial > >product that ever used the bizarre coding sequence: > > > > LXI SP, PROC-1 > > CALL PROC > > JRT Pascal was Z80 code if memory serves. But LXI SP, value is > valid as the arithmetic is done at compile time not execution. Nope--8080. I've still got the 1.0 disk. One can precede this sequence with (and I think that JRT did): LXI H,0 DAD SP to get the old SP value into the HL register pair prior to the LXI SP. And it is a V20 bug--I remember calling the NEC technical guy in Natick and getting about 10 words into the report and having him say "JRT Pascal, right?". If anyone's interested in the V20 errata, I've still got the stuff. JRT was one of the earlier attempts at "virtual" 8080 code; it swapped procedures from floppy. Of course, it was miserably slow, but at something like $30 for a Pascal, it looked like a great deal. Of course it was buggy as the dickens. I think the oddball calling sequence was to keep the stack adjacent to the procedure for subsequent swapping, rather than having to deal with a single stack that might well overflow without special handling routines, given the "virtual" nature of JRT Pascal. > In the end running an 8080 (V20) > when I have Z80 or even fast(6mhz HmosII) 8085s is sort of > less than interesting. Maybe, but you use what you have at your disposal, even if it is an 8080. And most professional apps for CP/M used the 8080 instruction set initially--only later did a bunch of Z80-specific (e.g. ZCPR) code come out. I never could understand this--in general, little to be gained in speed by using Z80 codes. FWIW, I still use 22NICE on Win2K. It nicely integrates old CP/M apps into the Windows environment without having to create virtual disks or such stuff, so using apps under emulation is no harder than using native ones. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 11:28:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:28:39 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54 In-Reply-To: References: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <46273647.10230.244CDA3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 9:48, Mark Tapley wrote: > PC-100B and PC-100+ (The latter with a hard drive and controller and > a different badge, but otherwise identical to a B) both could be > expanded up to 896k RAM. It wasn't the only system. I believe that the VIsual Commuter could also be expanded past 640K in the base area--and it was almost PC- compatible. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 19 11:51:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:51:23 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46271853.9010609@gmail.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> <4DC2D7D9-471E-494E-BC54-EF30002022D7@neurotica.com> <46271853.9010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44C85F11-AECD-45D5-B247-4FF3D2C19C5D@neurotica.com> On Apr 19, 2007, at 3:20 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> In truth it is really not all that difficult. The BIOS >> interface is very simple and well-defined. Under the tutelage of >> an experienced mentor, I was writing BIOS code on my Imsai when I >> was about fourteen. It's nothing like the complexity of, say, a >> device driver system for an implementation of UNIX. > > How does it differ? Aren't all drivers just fundamentally open, > close, read, write and ioctl? All UNIX-ish drivers are. ;) A CP/M BIOS is much simpler than that. Assuming CP/M v2.2 (the only version I've worked with) there are only (IIRC) seventeen routines which must be written, and they're all very low-level. There are console I/O routines like CONIN and CONOUT, which just get/put bytes to/from the console UART in the simplest of implementations, or they may manage buffers and interrupt service routines for more "fancy" serial I/O. There's SELDSK, SETTRK and SETSEC, which set the active disk drive, and track/sector numbers for the next transfer. Then there's READ and WRITE which, in a simple polled/non-DMA BIOS, can be less than half a page of assembly language. To CP/M, every mass storage device looks like a rotating disk with tracks and sectors. There are a few others, again seventeen if memory serves...READER and PUNCH, which are character-by-character reader and punch I/O, etc. There's LIST (printer output), WBOOT (warm boot), BOOT (cold boot)...not much else. So my point is that these routines are lower level and much less generalized than what we'd think of as a device driver in a modern UNIX-based OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 19 11:54:42 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:54:42 -0400 Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) In-Reply-To: <200704191628.l3JGRnqC026088@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003901c782a3$6d2c5310$6500a8c0@barry> Re: From: "Robert Armstrong" Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) .... In extended mode the drive could handle 512K diskettes ... So the bottom line is that if you want to run standard RT-11 on the H-11, you have to set the switch to RX-01 mode and you have the equivalent of an RX01 drive. No double density ... ************* I don't think that's correct; the controller in the H-27 (WH-27) is a Z-80 with a Western Digital 1771. The 1771 is most definitely single density only. It's not capable of double density. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 19 11:56:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:56:39 -0400 Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704190820s4c893d0bn244b62e85a49d04a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0704190820s4c893d0bn244b62e85a49d04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 19, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Ummm, aren't those just .1" spaced contact two-sided card-edges? My > memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember taking prototype boards > with 100 "tongues" per side (what _is_ the proper word?) "Fingers" -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 19 12:09:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:09:05 -0400 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) In-Reply-To: <1950105983@web.de> References: <1950105983@web.de> Message-ID: <200704191309.05739.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 April 2007 06:16, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Hi guys, > > as myself being a harddrive collector, this video really hurts alot ! > Such clips should be forbidden... You probably won't want to see this, then. Although, this picture was the result of the drive self-destructing, it wasn't anything that I did to the drive. This is what happens if you let a head crashed disk spin over a long weekend before bothering to pull it... (It used to be a Maxtor 6.4GB IDE disk) http://ned.cc.purdue.edu/b72-060512/maxor-hdd-crash.jpg Pat > > A nightmare is up on youtube. At least it hits me that way, as a > > full time disk person. > > > > > > > > Billy > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQzGIqp4t8 > > _______________________________________________________________ > SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und > kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 12:11:16 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:11:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0704190820s4c893d0bn244b62e85a49d04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704191011p1cb8abb1j99ba8d9b76206e42@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, JP Hindin wrote: > > Ummm, aren't those just .1" spaced contact two-sided card-edges? My > > memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember taking prototype boards > > with 100 "tongues" per side (what _is_ the proper word?) and using a > > hacksaw to cut off the required amount and shape (22 per side?) to fit > > the expansion port shape. It would also be a lot easier to solder > > to.... > Ugh, I seemed to be doped up this morning. I was meaning the connectors > for the EXPANSION port, not game cartridges which, as you say, have > tongues and not slot headers. > The appropriate broken carts I would be looking for would be REUs and > similar for these headers. Ummm, either one or both of us are still confused :-) The C= has two ports that can be called "expansion" ports: The User port, a 24 connector card edge of the motherboard, and the 44-pin expansion port, a slot connector soldered onto the motherboard. The former has 17 pins controlled by one (or both?) of the 6522's (the rest is +5, GND, etc.) and I think the spacing is .156". Jameco seems to still stock those. The expansion port has pretty much all the 6502 signals available, and is where anything needing the address/data bus would be plugged in - including game carts, REU, IEEE488, CP/M etc. If you're looking to add any "real" hardware, that's what you want; your hardware just needs to have the card edge with the "fingers" (thanks Dave) at .1". (Oh, and the PCB needs be the right fatness, but I think that's all standard, no?) If you are just looking for communicating with the C64/C128, the User port will do just fine, either by parallel or serial protocol. Modems and printers used to hang off here, but I think finding old ones to rip the connector off would be difficult. My search on Jameco showed P/N 422991, which looks right. Joe. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 19 12:18:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:18:22 -0400 Subject: VM/386 In-Reply-To: <1176945655.1899.55.camel@linux.site> References: <10138543.116491176359893438.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5EEAAF46-45E7-41FD-8279-8C595FA149AE@neurotica.com> <1176945655.1899.55.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <13B13FCA-8332-488C-B1CD-ED00B96151DE@neurotica.com> On Apr 18, 2007, at 9:20 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> My office in 1988/1989 used a product called "VM/386 Multiuser" >> which did a similar thing, using Wyse terminals. Most DOS apps >> worked very well, and it was fast. It used the virtual '86 mode of >> the 80386 processor. We ran it on a cached 386DX/25 with three >> terminals. >> >> A very different sort of thing, and long after PC-MOS, but worth >> mentioning. I'd love to find a copy of that again to play with; it >> was good stuff. > > I would point out that VM/386 did NOT just run DOS -- any > operating > system could be loaded in a virtual machine, and run independently, > along with DOS... or without DOS for that matter. Oh my, I was unaware of that...I thought it was DOS-only! Now I MUST play with it again. > I'm glad you liked > it... It was written by some friends of mine in Okemos, Michigan. It > was a remarkably stable environment -- I always thought they should > have > gotten rich and famous for their work. Well the next time you speak with them, tell them I said their product was fantastic. :-) My office ran it for a long time; it did its job well and never gave us a lick of trouble. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 19 12:19:48 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:19:48 -0500 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <4627359A.31850.244A396D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGQ00IYCZMQGZN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <4627359A.31850.244A396D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4627A4B4.7000003@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ... And most professional apps for CP/M used the 8080 instruction > set initially--only later did a bunch of Z80-specific (e.g. ZCPR) > code come out. I never could understand this--in general, little to > be gained in speed by using Z80 codes. I thought the main motivation was footprint, not speed. The relative jumps save a byte each time they are used, and djnz saved two. One of the most wasteful features in the 8080 instruction set, I thought, were the 8 conditional calls and 8 conditional returns. I would have much rather they had only unconditional call and unconditional return only and used those 16 opcodes for something more useful. Sure, they were useful once in a while, but not so often that they should use up 6% of the single byte opcode space. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 12:42:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGR00I2E1PBGWS3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <889846.57668.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > Unlike PCs were 640k was all there was. keep in mind that even on a vanilla pc some memory boards could utilize at least some portion of the A block, possibly all of it. You needed to tweek some data in low ram for DOS to acknowledge it. Not sure if any ol' board could do it. I remember someone saying a product by Seattle Computer would do the trick. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 19 12:43:52 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:43:52 -0500 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) In-Reply-To: <200704191309.05739.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1950105983@web.de> <200704191309.05739.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4627AA58.5060504@pacbell.net> The following 5 part (under 10 minutes each) presentation from defcon 14 on disk drive repair and recovery was really well done, I thought, as an introduction to the issues. YouTube videos: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=defcon+hard+drive+recovery&search=Search Flash slide show from the presentation is available here so you can play along at home: http://web.forensicspeak.com/defcon.htm From wizard at voyager.net Thu Apr 19 12:46:22 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:46:22 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry> References: <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <1177004783.1899.76.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 13:13 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: > The H-9 was flakey even when it was introduced. It was not a reliable > product, and will probably be difficult to get working. Probably bad ICs > or, worse, bad IC sockets. On Navy ships, a large chunk of zinc is connected to the steel hull at some point. Then, when oxidation, and other electro-chemical degradation takes place, this "sacrificial anode" is where essentially all the corrosion takes place. Every now and then, the remnants of the zinc are removed, and a new block is attached. (It's VERY easy and cheap to replace a block of zinc - repairing a thinning, corroding hull is quite another matter.) Somehow, I think the header pins on the H-9 were acting as sacrificial anodes in that machine. You're probably in a MUCH better position to answer this than I am. An H-9 was the first terminal I OWNED to use with my IMSAI 8080. Previously, I had borrowed a Teletype ASR-33, with the punch and all... whatever the exact model is. Anyway, after about two or three days, I would literally have to take the damned thing apart, and clean off all the headers (with long pins) by which all the various boards were interconnected. It took about an hour to do reliably, and would provide a solid, guaranteed 24 hours of uninterrupted use. But, usually by about 48 hours, a few "flaky bits" would start showing up on the screen. I never noticed data transmission being compromised, but, as time went by, I would have to keep more and more of what SHOULD have been on the screen in the organic neural network I carry around with me at all times for just such mechanical failures. After a while, the effort of trying to read the screen, and fill in the flaky bits, would convince me to take it apart again, and start over. I was *WAY* poor at the time, and could not afford to eat the difference and replace it. I ALMOST soldered in the various boards several times, but never did, for fear that something ELSE, like the sockets, was or were involved. When I moved back to the mainland, I was more than happy to sell it cheaply. I had almost forgotten all the heartache... Thanks for the reminder. > In my opinion, the best terminal for old PCs is an old laptop using a > terminal program through it's serial port. I agree, but that option wasn't available in 1977.... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 19 13:52:17 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:52:17 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0500 4/19/07, JP Hindin wrote: >Ugh, I seemed to be doped up this morning. I was meaning the connectors >for the EXPANSION port, not game cartridges which, as you say, have >tongues and not slot headers. >The appropriate broken carts I would be looking for would be REUs and >similar for these headers. As I recall these aren't that expensive from Digi-Key, I bought 3 of them last September. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 12:40:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:40:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46268301.2090005@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 18, 7 03:43:45 pm Message-ID: > just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port addresses, and > away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and realistically you'd have > to write your own comms / FDC driver which exposed some defined interface to > CP/M itself? You had to write something called a CBIOS (Customised Basic Input Output System IIRC). This was a set of routines to handle terminal I/O (and printer, paper tape I/O if you wanted that), disk block read/write, and so on. There's a manual giving the specs for these routines, how to get CP/M onto the target machine, and so on. The original CP/M distibution came with the source for a CBIOS for the Intel MDS800 (IIRC)m which you could use as a starting point I've never done it, but it ;ooks like quite a 'fun' thing to do for suitable values of 'fun'. Of course if you bought a packaged machine to run CP/M it came with a CBIOS written for that machine. And alas you rarely got the soruce of that :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 12:52:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:52:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <16C1A346-6740-4E5F-81D2-C5572AEB001A@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Apr 18, 7 10:57:56 pm Message-ID: > > Two ICT 1301 Mainframes, one operational, the other dismantled but Kersqueeble, or words to that effect! That rather makes my collection look trivial... > Also collect classic cars and hoard all sorts of interesting junk > because its easier than selling it (e.g. never sold a car). I've not got into cars yet (one day I must learn to operate one...), so I restrict that part of the hobby to collecting official workshop manuals for cars I'd like to own. Darn it, I collect service information for just about _anything_. I also have a reasonable collection of classic cameras. As in old, totally mechanical things. Anyway, here's a reasonably-complete list of my computer collection. Minicomputers ------------- DEC PDP11/05 (or is it 11/10), 8K core DEC GT40, VR17 display, lightpen (no keyboard) DEC PDP11/34's, MOS memory, programmers panel (3 off) DEC PDP11/44, 768K MOS memory, FPP DEC PDP11/45, 124K memory, Qbus expansion, RK05, RL01, RL02, RK07 (2 off each), RX02, RK11-C, Solartron tape reader, EMI7000 magtape, etc DEC PDP11/03, expansion box, RKV11-D DEC PDP11/03, Lab I/O, etc DEC MINC-03 + 2 RL01 drives, KW, DI(2), DO(2), AD, AA modules DEC MINC-23 + RX02, KW (2), DI, DO, AD, AA, TP, AG modules DEC SBC21 in BA11-V box (York Box PROMs + PLA) DEC PDP8/e + TU56 + RX01 + PC04 + RK8e controller DEC PDP8/a + RL8 + RK8 controllers DEC VAX 11/730 + R80 + TS05 magtape. DEC MicroVAX IIGPX Philips P850, 2K core, Trend papertape, IEEE488 interface Philips P851, 32K MOS, double 8" floppy drive Philips P854, 64K MOS, double 8" floppy drive, hard disk interface HP 2100A CPU + papertape reader + 'RK05-like' cartridge drive Tektronix 8530 development system Tektronix 8550 development system Computer Automation Naked Mini (missing PSU) Data General Nova 1210 (missing frontpanel) Parallel Computers ------------------ AMT DAP 500 (1024 processors), PSU fault Assorted INMOS TRAMs (Computer, SCSI, GPIB, Ethernet, etc). B004, B008, B020 INMOS ITEM (5 off B001 cards) + spares Workstations ------------ PERQ 1, 4K CPU, 1M RAM, 24Mbyte hard disk PERQ 2T1, 16K CPU, 2M RAM, OIO-2, Canon CX printer, V80 printer, Dylon Magtape, Archive Sidewinder, portrait monitor PERQ 2T4, 4M RAM, landscape monitor (with EHT fault?) PERQ 3a, 2M RAM, 100Mbyte hard disk, mono display Apollo DN3500 + 20Mbyte RAM + ESDI disks + spare cards. Sun 3/260, FPA, SCSI, SMD, QIC24 tape drive (no disks) HP 9000/340, 16Mbyte RAM, 6plane framebuffer (5 off) HP/ Apollo 9000/425 + external graphics box + spare mainboards/CPUs Torch XXX (3 off), slimring, quinring, mussel (68020) board, etc WCW MG1 motherboard + Ramcards + PSU WCW MG1, ramcards, keyboard, mouse, monitor, IBM expansion backplane. WCW Hitech 10 motherboard + CPU boards + video boards + RAM WCW Hitech 20 in PC tower case Xerox Daybreak 83D + mono monitor (missing keyboard/mouse) Acorn Cambridge Workstation Micros - 12 bit or higher ------------------------- IBM PC (3 off) IBM PC/XT (2 off, 1 with expansion cabinet) IBM PC/AT (with 486 kludgeboard,etc) IBM PortablePC IBM PC/jr IBM PC/XT Model 286 AES PC/AT clone Philips/Corona Data Systems XT clone HP150-II touchscreenPC, 3 off hard disk units, 2 off tape drives HP9816 HP9817 HP9825 + 8" drive + IEEE cartridge + RS232 cartridge etc HP9831 HP9836, 2 drives, 1 Mbyte RAM, RS232, 2* GPIO, HPIB cards. HP9845 + mono monitor, I/O expansion chassis, I/O modules, ROMs HP110 HP Portable+ (2 off, one with video interface) Apricot PC, 960K RAM, expansion cards FTS Model 88 workstation + 2 8" floppies Zilog S8000/30 Z8000-based unix machine Atari 520 STFM, external drive CBM Amiga 600 (faulty?) Sage 2, 512K RAM, 2 drives DEC Rainbow, RAMcard, Colorcard, HDC, VR201 monitor, LK201 keyboard (2 off) DEC Pro350 (2 off), assorted cards (including ethernet and realtime I/O) DEC Pro380 DECMate II, VR201, LK201 Sinclair QL, homebrew keyboard. Sanyo MBC555, mono monitor, keyboard Apple Macintosh Plus, keyboard, no mouse (2off) Apple Macintosh LC, keyboard (no mouse or monitor) Acorn A310, Monitor Acorn A3000, mouse IBM Risc6000 Model 220 Panasonic luggable PC Sharp 8086 PC (not IBM compatable) Sirius 1 Amstrad PC2086 + PC14HRCD/O monitor Amstrad PPC640DD portable PC + TV interface Micros - 8 bit -------------- CBM PET 8032SK + 8050 drive + printers CBM 64 + 1541 drive CBM 64C CBM 128 CBM P500 + 8250LP drive TRS-80 Model 1 (level 2 16K RAM) + Expansion Interface (32K RAM) + drive TRS-80 Model 1 (Model 3 basic, 48K RAM!), keyboard unit only TRS-80 Model 3, 48K RAM, 2 drives, RS232 TRS-80 Model 4, 128K RAM, 4 internal drives, RS232 TRS-80 CoCo 2, 64K RAM (4 off) TRS-80 CoCo 3, 512K RAM, 2 drives, RS232, Sound cartridge, etc TRS-80 Model 100, 32K RAM Acorn Atom (3 off), Econet, etc Acorn System 4, 6502 CPU, 40 col VDU, 56K RAM, keyboard, 2 drives, econet Acorn System 5, 6809 CPU, 80 col VDU, 56K RAM, non-original keyboard, 2 drives Acorn BBC Micro (6 off), econet, 8271 FDC, etc Acorn BBC Micro + Torch SCSI hard disk unit Acorn BBC Micro + Aries B32 RAM board Acorn 6502 second processor Acorn Z80 second processor Acorn ARM1 Evaluation System (BBC Second Processor) Torch Graduate 8088 second processor for BBC micro Torch Z80 card for BBC micro + ROM Tatung Einstein Apple ][ europlus + 4 drives + language card + 6809 + serial card etc Apple //e HH Tiger, 64K + 8K + 96K RAM, spare keyboard PCB, CPU only Vectrex video game + homebrew cartridges + homebrew lightpen HP85 (3 off) + HPIB module + RS232 module + ROM drawer + 16K RAM drawer HP9915 HP86B(3 off) + 9121 drive (3 off) + Monitor HP87 HP87XM Oric 1 + spare keyboard PCB Oric Atmos + 2 3" drives + printer Sinclair MK14 (faulty, alas), 256 bytes RAM, homebrew I/O mods Sinclair ZX81 + 3rd party 16K RAMpack Sinclair Spectrum 48K SGS Nanocomputer, keypad + spare CPU board 'PE Microcontroller' 6800 system + keypad + display + PSU Hewart Mini-6800 + RAMcard + microprinter + PSU Diamond word processor system + 2 8" drives CCS S100 system + cards CASU Super C S100 system, 64K RAM, Persci twin drive, etc Epson QX10 + video card + monitor + keyboard + spare CPU box Epson HX20 (5 off), cassette, TF20 floppy drive. Epson PX4 + RAM cartridge Epson PX8 + PF10 3.5" drive (63X03 faulty) Atari 400 (missing keyboard),PSU Jupiter ACE, 16K Rampack, PSU Grundy Newbrain AD + PSU ICL DRS20 Intel Intellec MCS8i, paper tape interface, 1702 programmer Intel MDS800, UPP, 2 8" drives, 8080 ICE GR Futuredata Z80 development system. Exidy Sorcerer, S100 expansion rack NEC PC8001, expansion unit Olivetti M10 portable RML380Z, 2 internal drives, Hires card, RGB output, keyboard RML480Z, internal expansion card Zenith Z-90 + Z87 external drive unit (hard and soft sector controllers) Philips P5020 word processor, keyboard Gemini Galaxy 2, keyboard, monitor Graphics Systems ---------------- Ramtek Marquis 9460 (cardcage only), Unibus interface Grinnel Systems PDP11 framestore PPL Model 121 video hard disk + control PPL PDP11 framestore, Unibus Interface, trackball I2S Model 70/E image processor, 2 RAM crates, trackball, tablet I2S Model 70/F4 image processor, trackball I2S Model 75 image processor, trackball, tablet, Barco CDCT 2/51 monitor Evans and Sutherland PS/390 image display, tablet, twidlebox, keyboard, PAL encoder, 3D imager HP1350 Graphics translator (2 off), HP1311A monitor Tektronix 4006 graphics terminal Peripherals, etc ---------------- Teletype Model ASR33, large box of spares Data Dynamics Model 390 (ASR33) Creed 7E Creed 444 (missing reader drive belt), control unit. Friden Flexowriter Teleprinter Unit 4 (line termination unit) Sanders 12/7 varioprinter Sanders 700 hi-res dot matrix printer DEC LA210 printer DEC LA324 printer DEC LA100 printer (4 off) Trend HSR500P paper tape reader Trend UDR700 reader Facit 4070 paper tape punch (2 off) Cipher F880E magtape drive Facit 4028 cassette drive Teletype KSR43 (2 off) Elliot High Speed paper tape reader DRI model 30 cartridge disk (2 off) + PSU Data Dynamics 1133 paper tape punch Teletype BPRE high speed punch (2 off) DEC VT100 video terminal (3 off) DEC VT105 video terminal with graph option DEC VT55 video terminal, printer Beehive video terminal, hebrew option Volker-Craig model 414 terminal, APL option Philips videotext system, keypad Philips videotext system, QWERTY keyboard, printer (2 off) Modem 2B (2 off) Modem 1200A Modem 13A Anderson-Jacobson Acoustic coupler HP7225 plotter (2 off) HP7245 plotter/printer Toyo/Sanyo colour video printer + spares ICL Termiprinter (2 off, different versions) Torch lightpen for the BBC micro Trend 860 series portable terminal Calculators/handhelds --------------------- HP9100B (2 off), magcards HP9815 (early version CPU board, very dead :-() HP9815 (late version CPU board) HP35 HP45 HP55 HP65 HP67 (2 off), cards HP80 HP41C HP41C (with bug 1) HP41CV (a lot), card reader, wand, printer (printhead problems), IL module HP41CX (3 off) Many HP41 modules (including ZenROM, ZEEPROM), MLDL, etc HP71B (5 off), HPIL module (5 off), 32K Ram module, Forth ROM, Maths ROM, Datacoms ROM, Circuit ROM, Curve fitting ROM, finance ROM, 41 tranlastor ROM, Zenwand, card reader, IL printer, IL tape drive, IL disk drive HP75C, cards, Visicalc, I/O ROM, text formatter ROM HP28C, RS232 output interface (homebrew) HP48SX, IR interface (Homebrew), I2C interface (homebrew) HP49G HP42S HP31E HP32E HP33C HP34C HP82163 video display interface HP82164 RS232 interface HP82165 GPIO interface HP82169 HPIB interface Novus Mathematician Casio AL1000 Casio AL2000 Sharp PC1211, cassette interface, printer Sharp PC1350 + RS232 interface + 8K and 16K RAM cards Sharp PC1500, plotter, RS232/centronics i/f, RS232/ADC i/f, tapes (I/O fault?) Tandy PC4, printer, cassette interfce Tandy PC6 Tandy PC7 Casio FX730 + Cassette Interface Sinclair Cambridge Universal IME Model 26 calculator HP9810 (2 off) HP9830 + HP9866 printer Microwriter MW4 Microwriter Agenda Test Equipment -------------- Tektronix 551, K and L plugins (EHT fault?) Tektronix 555, 1A1, 1S1, P, M, 1A5, etc Solartron CD1400 scope, delayed timebase Tektronix 5110 'scope (2 off), assorted plugins Tektronix 561 'scope, 3S2, 3T2 plugins (no sampling heads) Gould K100D logic analyser,homebrew pod HP LogicDart HP3421 Data Acquisition unit + HPIB interface Tektronix 835 datacoms analyser Trend 1/4 datacoms test set ATE TDMS5 Teleprinter test set 'Tester Distortion and Margin' teleprinter tester Fluke 2240 data logger, paper tape output card, hires ADC Solartron DTU, clock, controller, interface, papertape card, keypad, etc (2 0ff) Solartron LM1420.2 DVM HP5243 10MHz counter + 100MHz mixer plugin HP5245 50MHz counter + 350MHz prescaler, time interval plugin, 3Ghz mixer Blackburn Instruments DVM (entirely valved!) AVO valve characteristic meter Mk4 Mullard high-speed valve tester, cards Taylor valve tester -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 19 13:28:31 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:28:31 -0500 Subject: Bondwell 2 CP/M laptop available Message-ID: <4627B4CF.9050009@pacbell.net> I received an email asking if I was interested in a Bondwell 2 laptop. You can learn a little bit more about it from one of my web pages: http://www.thebattles.net/bondwell/bondwell.html It has a 640x200 bitmapped LCD display (capable of displaying 80x25 text), a 4 MHz Z80, integral floppy drive. The downsides are that it has a pair of heavy sealed lead acid batteries (I replaced the two 6v bricks in mine with a single 12v brick; as I recall it cost $15 or so), and that scrolling text is painful since the text is just drawn as bitmapped graphics. I don't want another one, so I offered to pass along his contact information. He is in Redwood City, CA (just south of san francisco), but it seems he is willing to ship; ask him to be sure. When I asked about price, he said: "SURE, GO AHEAD AND LIST IT, I WOULD MUCH APPRECIATE. I DON'T WANT ALOT OF MONEY, I'M JUST LOOKING FOR A GOOD HOME FOR IT." I'll obscure the email address to prevent harvesting. Robert is his name. Reply to: AcopsBisCtops @ yaDhoo . comE Remove the capital letters and spaces. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 14:26:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:26:56 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <4627A4B4.7000003@pacbell.net> References: <0JGQ00IYCZMQGZN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4627359A.31850.244A396D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4627A4B4.7000003@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <46276010.16277.24F014A5@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 12:19, Jim Battle wrote: > One of the most wasteful features in the 8080 instruction set, I > thought, were the 8 conditional calls and 8 conditional returns. I > would have much rather they had only unconditional call and > unconditional return only and used those 16 opcodes for something more > useful. Sure, they were useful once in a while, but not so often that > they should use up 6% of the single byte opcode space. Opcode density wasn't an issue on the 8080. Consider, for example, the useless MOV instructions (MOV A,A, MOV B,B etc.). I suspect the conditional call and returns were essentially "freebies" that came out of the conditional jump code logic (note that the opcode grouping is very logical). Note that the 8008 had a similar setup with conditional calls and returns. For its time it was pretty remarkable. Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Thu Apr 19 15:20:39 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:20:39 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <171963.15798.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1177014040.4712.13.camel@linux.site> Doug Jackson wrote: > Some have questioned the number of people on the > list who have CP/M systems. Well, limiting it to CP/M machines makes the task a bit simpler. I have: 1. IMSAI 8080 - fully functional 2. KayPro 10 - fully functional, and being used to develop software 3. KayPro 2 - fully functional 4. KayPro II - fully functional 5. Osborne 1 - fully functional 6. Osborne 1a - fully functional 7. Osborne Executive - Appears okay, no system disk 8. Cromemco Z2 - Appears good, have collected approp. cards, need to make cables 9. (2) Monroe OC-8820 machines, ALL s/w, probably one good set of h/w between them. 10. (2) Commodore 128 machines, 1 fully functional, 1 not-yet-explored Ack. I need a garage sale. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Thu Apr 19 15:22:53 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:22:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704191011p1cb8abb1j99ba8d9b76206e42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 19/04/07, JP Hindin wrote: > > > Ummm, aren't those just .1" spaced contact two-sided card-edges? My > > > memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember taking prototype boards > > > with 100 "tongues" per side (what _is_ the proper word?) and using a > > > hacksaw to cut off the required amount and shape (22 per side?) to fit > > > the expansion port shape. It would also be a lot easier to solder > > > to.... > > Ugh, I seemed to be doped up this morning. I was meaning the connectors > > for the EXPANSION port, not game cartridges which, as you say, have > > tongues and not slot headers. > > The appropriate broken carts I would be looking for would be REUs and > > similar for these headers. > > Ummm, either one or both of us are still confused :-) The C= has two > ports that can be called "expansion" ports: The User port, a 24 > connector card edge of the motherboard, and the 44-pin expansion port, > a slot connector soldered onto the motherboard. The former has 17 > pins controlled by one (or both?) of the 6522's (the rest is +5, GND, > etc.) and I think the spacing is .156". Jameco seems to still stock > those. I'm just not doing well today, am I? The female connectors on devices plugged into the USER port is what I am after - when I looked these up late last year (I believe in my Mouser catalogue, but given how well I'm doing today, I just can't be sure any blasted more) they were quite expensive, my memory says something like $12 a connector. Hence why I was willing to cannabalise broken equipment rather than cough up for these - as I need about twenty connectors! I apologise for the confusion, twice over. I don't exactly sound like someone you want to be sending all your stored Commodore pieces to now, do I? Honest, it's just been a bad day! JP Hindin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 15:41:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:41:39 -0400 Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0704191011p1cb8abb1j99ba8d9b76206e42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/19/07, JP Hindin wrote: > I'm just not doing well today, am I? Perhaps not... but perhaps you will do better. > The female connectors on devices plugged into the USER port is what I am > after - when I looked these up late last year (I believe in my Mouser > catalogue...... my memory says something like $12 > a connector. http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=422991 CINCH CONNECTORS 50-24A-30 $2.29 each q.25 price -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 12:07:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:07:54 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGR0079Q8V0CRS7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:48:40 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19 Apr 2007 at 3:20, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> How does it differ? Aren't all drivers just fundamentally open, close, >> read, write and ioctl? > >Well, CP/M 2.2 have no "open" and "close" function, just read and >write--single character for character devices and a single 128 byte >block for mass storage. The closest thing to ioctl is the "select >unit", "set track" and "set sector" entry points. Yes. >While BDOS >supports open and close functions, it's entirely up to the user to >track open files--the BDOS doesn't contain so much as a list of open >files. Early MS-DOS operated the same way--using FCBs for file I/O >like CP/M. While the OS didn't do that it was easy to have your own FCB(s) and the OS would not limit you. CP/M was a big step up from OSs like NSdos that only did sequential allocation and even more limited user interface. >Directories are, of course, flat, though you could >qualify entries with a "User area" field that was not considered to >be part of the filename. Allocation information is kept with each >directory name entry; when a file got large enough, another directory >"extent" was allocated. There was a very firm upper limit >(implementation defined) on the number of files one could have on a >volume. IIRC, the upper limit on disk storage was about 8 MB per >volume. The limit is for CP/M2 were 65535addressable sectors * 128bytes =8mb it would be higher if the math didn't truncate at 16bits. The improved BDOSs (P2DOS and friends) fixed the math and it was then: 65535 * allocation block size (up to 32k) =2gb CPM3 and MPM allowed for 512byte sectors and 32mb max logical drive size. >One needn't worry about reentrancy, multiple character/block requests >or interrupts. Everything's done with a jump vector table; since >CP/M is non-multitasking, management of driver data is simple. CP/M2 is non multitasking, V3 and MPM which are related (same filesystem and bdos calls) it can be an issue. However, the non-multitask status of CP/MV2 didn't prevent things like background printing or interrupt driven IO though it meant the BIOS implmentor had to do the work. One nasty with a flat file system and allocation scheme is with an 8mb drive and directory sized for say 2048 entries a directory search on a moderately full disk was SLOW. It was a sequential search. >If you were dealing with disks with sector sizes larger than 128 >bytes, some write-behind, read-ahead logic was unavoidable, but even >there, the BDOS would help out by signifying if the read was for a >directory block or the write was for a newly-allocated block. If >you had sufficient RAM to do full track reads and writes, you could >often improve the speed of CP/M I/O significantly. IDE helps as it has on drive buffering/cache and a few floppy and harddisk controllers were buffered and did deblocking in hardware. One floppy controler that could do this was the JADE DoubleD. Other oddities is there was no MBR or on disk partition tables for large drives. The partition info was kept in the DPH/DPB inside the BIOS. >Disk volume tracking was done using a simple "checksum" on a >installation-defined number of directory entries. If a disk was >changed unexpectedly, the BDOS responded by setting its status to >Read-Only and displaying an error. Only required for floppy or the uncommon removable harddisk (CDC hawk anyone). >Later versions of CP/M supported multi-block I/O and file date and >time stamps. They did significantly advancement CP/M as it allowed existing program base to live on. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 14:16:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:16:53 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGR00ELRETYR3R5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:40:54 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> just tell it what particular ICs you're using and at what port addresses, and >> away it goes? Or was it more complex than that, and realistically you'd have >> to write your own comms / FDC driver which exposed some defined interface to >> CP/M itself? > >You had to write something called a CBIOS (Customised Basic Input Output >System IIRC). This was a set of routines to handle terminal I/O (and >printer, paper tape I/O if you wanted that), disk block read/write, and >so on. There's a manual giving the specs for these routines, how to get >CP/M onto the target machine, and so on. The original CP/M distibution >came with the source for a CBIOS for the Intel MDS800 (IIRC)m which you >could use as a starting point > >I've never done it, but it ;ooks like quite a 'fun' thing to do for >suitable values of 'fun'. Of course if you bought a packaged machine to >run CP/M it came with a CBIOS written for that machine. And alas you >rarely got the soruce of that :-( > >-tony Trust me haveing done it more tha a few times it was fun or at least interesting. You did miss the third case, packaged machine and time for upgrade. In that case sometime the existing BIOS was needed or not. Having sone more than a few random integrations (S100 crates) usually you didn't have a explict bios to match but did have similar or at least a pattern. Often during S100 upgrades here the FDC was the item being upgraded or outright replaced it was easier to start from scratch and build in features the earlier bios neglected like buffered IO for serial lines or better error messages. Allison From james at machineroom.info Thu Apr 19 15:00:20 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:00:20 +0100 Subject: IRIS Indigo PM2 post-portem In-Reply-To: <20070418214405.21644fdc@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <8v6gcy4l3x2krjp.170420070942@jvdg.com> <20070418214405.21644fdc@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <4627CA54.7010703@machineroom.info> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:42:54 +0200 > Joost van de Griek wrote: > >> They are very nice machines. Built like tanks. Even a defunct one >> serves as a nice example of how workstations *should* be constructed. > Except the PSUs. I think I am now past a dozen Indigos with blowen up > PSUs. A friend with experience in repairing SM-PSUs tried to fix the > PSUs once - and finaly gave up. Fortunately it is not hard to replace > the PSU: http://www.aopc98.dsl.pipex.com/indigo_psu_rescue.html > > SGI hardware is nice, but quirky. I'm glad my little web page came in useful :-) The machine that PSU is in is a R4400, full memory, Elan graphics, fast 9GB drive. Been running fine for years. If anyone repairs an existing PSU and manages to fill in the missing pins (A,B & C) on my pinout I'd be happy to update the site. James From jefftnc at compascable.net Thu Apr 19 16:21:20 2007 From: jefftnc at compascable.net (Jeff Thompson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:21:20 -0400 Subject: FA: SYM Model 1 Computer Message-ID: Hi all, Cutting back on my collection... Synertek SYM Model 1, untested, in great physical shape. http://tinyurl.com/ysf2s2 USA only...sorry...Post Office issues... Thanks for looking. JT From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 19 16:35:49 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:35:49 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <16C1A346-6740-4E5F-81D2-C5572AEB001A@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: Hmmmmm... CP/M machines. 8080, 8085 or Z80 variants: Commodore 128 Apple II+SoftCard Apple IIgs+SoftCard Epson PX-8 Epson Equity II (V30 processor) Osborne One TRS 80 Model 4P Sol 20 Tandy 6000HD (in Model II mode) 80*86 variants A pile of generic machines none worth mentioning specifically. 68000 variants Tandy 6000? (I don't have the (apocryphal?) CP/M 68000 disks for it) Do we count an Atari 1040ST running TOS (essentially GEM+a variant of CP/M 68K)? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 19 16:35:49 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:35:49 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: <16C1A346-6740-4E5F-81D2-C5572AEB001A@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: Hmmmmm... CP/M machines. 8080, 8085 or Z80 variants: Commodore 128 Apple II+SoftCard Apple IIgs+SoftCard Epson PX-8 Epson Equity II (V30 processor) Osborne One TRS 80 Model 4P Sol 20 Tandy 6000HD (in Model II mode) 80*86 variants A pile of generic machines none worth mentioning specifically. 68000 variants Tandy 6000? (I don't have the (apocryphal?) CP/M 68000 disks for it) Do we count an Atari 1040ST running TOS (essentially GEM+a variant of CP/M 68K)? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 19 16:51:36 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have around five P112 kits left and the question of making more has come up in private email. How many of you would be interested in acquiring one of these CP/M computer kits? See http://frotz.homeunix.org/ for a full description and pics. I'm still in the middle of things that prevent me from doing any shipping and filling baggies with passives, so I'm not selling any of the kits I still have for the time being. That's also why I haven't done anything with the 8-inch drives. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 19 17:07:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:07:11 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get appropriate hard drives (don't know yet if I have the associated sleds) and OS media for an SGI Reality Monster Onyx2? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 17:23:41 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:23:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0704191011p1cb8abb1j99ba8d9b76206e42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704191523i580b77cdm221ca5831edf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, JP Hindin wrote: > I'm just not doing well today, am I? Naah, don't worry - when you mentioned game cartriges and later thr REU, my mind just got stuck on that you wanted to use the actual "expansion port" rather than the "user port". > I apologise for the confusion, twice over. I don't exactly sound like > someone you want to be sending all your stored Commodore pieces to now, do > I? Honest, it's just been a bad day! Didn't you know that knowing the exact minutae of C= terminology is _vital_ before starting such a project? The C= kabal demands that one scores at least 25% on the Jim Brain trivia challange before hacking up C= hardware! (...I think I can get abut 10% of those... I need to study more!...) Joe. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 19 17:25:56 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: from Eric J Korpela at "Apr 19, 7 02:35:49 pm" Message-ID: <200704192225.l3JMPufP013976@floodgap.com> > 8080, 8085 or Z80 variants: > Commodore 128 I keep forgetting. I have a C64 CP/M 2 cartridge but never actually used it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Insomniac dyslexic agnostic: "I stay up late wondering if there's a dog" --- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 17:30:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:30:37 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGR0079Q8V0CRS7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGR0079Q8V0CRS7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46278B1D.12146.25983C49@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 13:07, Allison wrote: >> While the OS didn't do that it was easy to have your own FCB(s) and > the OS would not limit you. ...unless you were porting to MP/M, in which case too-ambitious manipulation of FCBs could come back and bite you, since MP/M did track file opens > CP/M was a big step up from OSs like NSdos that only did sequential > allocation and even more limited user interface. Sequential or consecutive? Consecutive allocation was not a bad thing, provided that it allowed for expansion of a file by adding additional extents. Indeed, it could be much faster than simple granular allocation when seek time is an issue. I've worked on a couple of mainframe allocation systems that used consecutive-with- extension allocation with no particular problems. I routinely run into them in conversion (e.g. IBM DIsplaywriter). A Smith-Corona typewriter uses sequential allocation in that each allocation unit is placed physically later on the disk than the previous one, but not necessarily adjacent to the preceding one. > CPM3 and MPM allowed for 512byte sectors and 32mb max logical drive size. You must be looking at MP/M I. The maximum drive size for MP/M II is 512MB using 16K allocation units. The maximum file size, however is still 8 MB. > CP/M2 is non multitasking, V3 and MPM which are related (same filesystem > and bdos calls) it can be an issue. However, the non-multitask status > of CP/MV2 didn't prevent things like background printing or interrupt > driven IO though it meant the BIOS implmentor had to do the work. Didn't the CP/M SPOOL program simply hook the printer BIOS vector and install itself below CCP like the XSUB program? It's been a long time, so it might have been above the CBIOS also. > Other oddities is there was no MBR or on disk partition tables for > large drives. The partition info was kept in the DPH/DPB inside the BIOS. I suspect that DRI considered that area to be an issue left to the implementor. We certainly allowed two OS-es to reside on the same drive by simply implementing our own partition table scheme and making the hard disk access routines aware of it. MS-DOS scarcely does anything much more elegant. > Only required for floppy or the uncommon removable harddisk > (CDC hawk anyone). ...or Syquest removables (SQ100) which were around early enough, albeit after the PC, to find their way onto some Z80 CP/M systems. I seem to recall seeing an OS being advertised in one of the mags in the late 70's that offered CP/M functional compatibility, but also featured a hierarchical directory structure. I don't recall the name, but a friend was all fired up about it. Cheers, Chuck From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Thu Apr 19 18:15:59 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:15:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for: Any Commodore gear (not reselling or anything nefarious) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704191523i580b77cdm221ca5831edf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 19/04/07, JP Hindin wrote: > > I'm just not doing well today, am I? > > Naah, don't worry - when you mentioned game cartriges and later thr > REU, my mind just got stuck on that you wanted to use the actual > "expansion port" rather than the "user port". > > > I apologise for the confusion, twice over. I don't exactly sound like > > someone you want to be sending all your stored Commodore pieces to now, do > > I? Honest, it's just been a bad day! > > Didn't you know that knowing the exact minutae of C= terminology is > _vital_ before starting such a project? The C= kabal demands that one > scores at least 25% on the Jim Brain trivia challange before hacking > up C= hardware! > > (...I think I can get abut 10% of those... I need to study more!...) Thankfully I'm only writing the software :) I have a partner in crime who is doing the hardware hacking, including prototyping up the bits that are connecting the 20 or so C64s/C128s. He's the one that knows the typos and errors in the Commodore Programmers Reference Guide on a page-by-page, line-by-line basis ;) JP From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 19 18:34:13 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:34:13 -0400 Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4627FC75.1090206@mdrconsult.com> David Griffith wrote: > I have around five P112 kits left and the question of making more has come > up in private email. How many of you would be interested in acquiring one > of these CP/M computer kits? See http://frotz.homeunix.org/ for a full > description and pics. > > I'm still in the middle of things that prevent me from doing any shipping > and filling baggies with passives, so I'm not selling any of the kits I > still have for the time being. That's also why I haven't done anything > with the 8-inch drives. I'm interested in a P112, and still interested in the 8" drives. :) Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 19 19:47:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:47:52 -0600 Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: <4627FC75.1090206@mdrconsult.com> References: <4627FC75.1090206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46280DB8.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: >> I'm still in the middle of things that prevent me from doing any shipping >> and filling baggies with passives, so I'm not selling any of the kits I >> still have for the time being. That's also why I haven't done anything >> with the 8-inch drives. > > I'm interested in a P112, and still interested in the 8" drives. :) Since the last CP/M machine I used you had to *Bang* on the 8" drive to get to seek correctly. If you banged too hard the CPU would reset. I think skip this offer because of that bad memory. > > Doc PS. Also with my bad luck with power supplies, I refuse to buy any kit that does not have a power supply or box to put the card in. From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 19 19:50:18 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:50:18 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computing places and surplus stores in L.A. Long Beach Area? In-Reply-To: <001601c78203$ddebf650$af00a8c0@barbara> Message-ID: <002501c782e5$df389ee0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> You should visit Marvin J.! -----Original Message----- From: Marc Holz [mailto:mcwood at nefkom.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:53 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Vintage Computing places and surplus stores in L.A. Long Beach Area? Hello Folks, I'm on a business trip to Long Beach, CA next week and would like to know whether someone could recommend me any vintage stores or other places in that area I should visit in my spare time. I mostly interested in DEC, CDC and Lispmachines or newer stuff like Suns or similar as well. Sadly, there no time for me to visit the CHM. Best Regards, Marc Holz From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 19 18:59:48 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:59:48 -0700 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704191659.48205.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 19 April 2007 15:07, Richard wrote: > Anyone know where I can get appropriate hard drives (don't know yet if > I have the associated sleds) and OS media for an SGI Reality Monster > Onyx2? Just about any SCA SE drives will do. Typically, SGI used 9GB, 18GB, 36GB and 72GB drives. But Onyx2's are not "particular". SGI mostly oemed Quantum and IBM drives - but again, that's not a requirement. I recently acquired, restored and upgraded a nice Onyx2 Deskside with (2) Dual 400MHz nodes (4 CPUs) w/8MB cache, 1GB RAM, InfiniteReality2E Graphics, (2) RM9s, a DG5-8 and DIVO video. Not too shabby for a 10 year old system ;-) I used Quantum and IBM 18GB drives... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From medavidson at mac.com Thu Apr 19 19:03:16 2007 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:03:16 -0700 Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: <4627FC75.1090206@mdrconsult.com> References: <4627FC75.1090206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Apr 19, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> I have around five P112 kits left and the question of making more >> has come >> up in private email. How many of you would be interested in >> acquiring one >> of these CP/M computer kits? See http://frotz.homeunix.org/ for a >> full >> description and pics. >> I'm still in the middle of things that prevent me from doing any >> shipping >> and filling baggies with passives, so I'm not selling any of the >> kits I >> still have for the time being. That's also why I haven't done >> anything >> with the 8-inch drives. > > I'm interested in a P112, and still interested in the 8" drives. :) Count me in as well... Mark medavidson at mac.com From shumaker at att.net Thu Apr 19 20:11:17 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:11:17 -0700 Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704200112.l3K1CHsi028308@keith.ezwind.net> I'd be interested in a kit - or just the board. s shumaker At 02:51 PM 4/19/2007, you wrote: >I have around five P112 kits left and the question of making more has come >up in private email. How many of you would be interested in acquiring one >of these CP/M computer kits? See http://frotz.homeunix.org/ for a full >description and pics. > >I'm still in the middle of things that prevent me from doing any shipping >and filling baggies with passives, so I'm not selling any of the kits I >still have for the time being. That's also why I haven't done anything >with the 8-inch drives. > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bob at jfcl.com Thu Apr 19 20:40:40 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:40:40 -0700 Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) In-Reply-To: <003901c782a3$6d2c5310$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <001c01c782ec$edf30d10$183ffa48@Rhyme> > Barry Watzman (Watzman at neo.rr.com) > I don't think that's correct; the controller in the H-27 > (WH-27) is a Z-80 with a Western Digital 1771. The 1771 is > most definitely single density only. It's not capable of > double density. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, but then why all the trouble with the mode switch? Surely it does more than just disable the format function? Bob From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 19 21:24:00 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:24:00 -0700 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704191924.00621.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 19 April 2007 15:07, Richard wrote: > Anyone know where I can get appropriate hard drives (don't know yet if > I have the associated sleds) and OS media for an SGI Reality Monster > Onyx2? In answer to the second part of your question regarding OS media: IRIX 6.5 I'm not sure of the minimum requirements for the Monster - but if they are the same as an Onyx2 IR2 it would be IRIX 6.5.6 or later. If your system doesn't come with a system disk, you will need to get the full base CD set. (You can subsequently get maintenance upgrades from SGI if you join Supportfolio.) Hopefully you'll get the CDs and/or the system disk when you get the system. If not, contact me off-list. For SGI documentation see: http://techpubs.sgi.com Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 19 21:40:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:40:07 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:24:00 -0700. <200704191924.00621.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200704191924.00621.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > Hopefully you'll get the CDs and/or the system disk when you get the system. > If not, contact me off-list. Nope, all the SGI machines in this auction were sans hard drives: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From shumaker at att.net Thu Apr 19 21:44:30 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:44:30 -0700 Subject: IBM heavy metal up for auction In-Reply-To: <4627707B.5050709@kurico.com> References: <4627707B.5050709@kurico.com> Message-ID: <200704200245.l3K2jVEx032619@keith.ezwind.net> came across this in browsing today: http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=183865 Auction #183865 - IBM COMPONENTS - CONTROLLERS, TAPE DRIVE, PRINTER & MORE : INCLUDES ALL OF THE FOLLOWING ITEMS: - IBM 3490E - TAPE DRIVE SYSTEM (2 PIECES) - IBM 3720, 3721 - COMMUNICATIONS CONTROLLER W/EXPANSION UNIT - IBM 3151 MONITOR + KEYBOARD - IBM 6262 014 - PRINTER - IBM 3174 11L - LOCAL CONTROLLER - MANUALS FOR MODELS 3720, 3721, 3174 - LARGE BLUE DATA CABLES closes 25 Apr s shumaker From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 19 22:34:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:34:23 -0500 Subject: mobygames disbursement In-Reply-To: References: <462503C1.5090904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <462834BF.3080006@oldskool.org> All that and a bag of chips. I have a lot to reply with but it's 10:30 and I'm tired; I'll give you a call tomorrow or Saturday. Brian Hirt wrote: > On 4/17/07, 9000 VAX wrote: >> >> On 4/17/07, Al Kossow wrote: >> > >> > >> > any new news on that? >> > >> > >> One possibility is that the controller did not place fast enough in SA >> register the value CPU was looking for. I need several days to calm down >> before I look at this problem again. > > > Well, my guess is conformed. I observed the QBUS with a logic analyzer and > it seemed the VMS 6.1 installer issued IPW to reset the controller, and > after it read SAR=0x0b40, it wrote SAW=0xa4ff. Then it read SA port at > 12.2ms after that, then again at 12.8ms as a second chance, expecting > 0x10a4, before it issued IPW again at 12.88ms. My controller had not > updated > SAR before the second chance. > > The fix seems to be easy. I just need to make sure the controller is > able to > update the SAR register quickly. Maybe it is as simple as removing some > printf()'s. > > vax, 9000 > From - Thu Apr 19 14:16:56 2007 > X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 > X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > Return-Path: > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on homer > X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=3.5 tests=BAYES_00 > autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 > Received: from dewey.classiccmp.org (dewey.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.57]) > by homer.berkhirt.com (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l3I4fE3M021055 > (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) > for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:41:14 -0500 > Received: from dewey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l3I4dpBW091805; > Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:40:49 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org) > Received: from keith.ezwind.net (keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15]) > by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l3I4algn091723 > for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:37:28 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from ingrammp at earthlink.net) > Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net > (pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net > [207.69.195.72]) > by keith.ezwind.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l3I4ajW9078409 > for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:36:45 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from ingrammp at earthlink.net) > Received: from cpe-24-221-141-76.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.141.76] > helo=[192.168.2.16]) > by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) > id 1He1uO-00061z-00 > for cctalk at classiccmp.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:36:44 -0400 > Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) > In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905 at stillhq.com> > References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621 at dewey.classiccmp.org> > <46257B17.3080905 at stillhq.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > Message-Id: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: mike ingram > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:36:42 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) > X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, > clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net > X-Virus-Status: Clean > Subject: Re: Quick survey on equipment > X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 > Precedence: list > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Sender: cctalk-bounces at cla -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 19 22:42:43 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:42:43 -0500 Subject: mobygames disbursement In-Reply-To: <462834BF.3080006@oldskool.org> References: <462503C1.5090904@bitsavers.org> <462834BF.3080006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <462836B3.5000305@oldskool.org> My apologies; this was the result of Thunderbird seriously freaking out. Sorry for the confusion! Jim Leonard wrote: > All that and a bag of chips. I have a lot to reply with but it's 10:30 > and I'm tired; I'll give you a call tomorrow or Saturday. > > Brian Hirt wrote: >> On 4/17/07, 9000 VAX wrote: >>> >>> On 4/17/07, Al Kossow wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > any new news on that? >>> > >>> > >>> One possibility is that the controller did not place fast enough in SA >>> register the value CPU was looking for. I need several days to calm down >>> before I look at this problem again. >> >> >> Well, my guess is conformed. I observed the QBUS with a logic analyzer >> and >> it seemed the VMS 6.1 installer issued IPW to reset the controller, and >> after it read SAR=0x0b40, it wrote SAW=0xa4ff. Then it read SA port at >> 12.2ms after that, then again at 12.8ms as a second chance, expecting >> 0x10a4, before it issued IPW again at 12.88ms. My controller had not >> updated >> SAR before the second chance. >> >> The fix seems to be easy. I just need to make sure the controller is >> able to >> update the SAR register quickly. Maybe it is as simple as removing some >> printf()'s. >> >> vax, 9000 >> From - Thu Apr 19 14:16:56 2007 >> X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 >> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 >> Return-Path: >> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on homer >> X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=3.5 >> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 >> Received: from dewey.classiccmp.org (dewey.classiccmp.org >> [209.145.140.57]) >> by homer.berkhirt.com (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l3I4fE3M021055 >> (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) >> for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:41:14 -0500 >> Received: from dewey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) >> by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l3I4dpBW091805; >> Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:40:49 -0500 (CDT) >> (envelope-from cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org) >> Received: from keith.ezwind.net (keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15]) >> by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l3I4algn091723 >> for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:37:28 -0500 (CDT) >> (envelope-from ingrammp at earthlink.net) >> Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net >> (pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net >> [207.69.195.72]) >> by keith.ezwind.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l3I4ajW9078409 >> for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:36:45 -0500 (CDT) >> (envelope-from ingrammp at earthlink.net) >> Received: from cpe-24-221-141-76.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.141.76] >> helo=[192.168.2.16]) >> by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) >> id 1He1uO-00061z-00 >> for cctalk at classiccmp.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:36:44 -0400 >> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) >> In-Reply-To: <46257B17.3080905 at stillhq.com> >> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621 at dewey.classiccmp.org> >> <46257B17.3080905 at stillhq.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> Message-Id: >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> From: mike ingram >> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:36:42 -0700 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) >> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, >> clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net >> X-Virus-Status: Clean >> Subject: Re: Quick survey on equipment >> X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 >> Precedence: list >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> List-Unsubscribe: , >> >> List-Archive: >> List-Post: >> List-Help: >> List-Subscribe: , >> >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at cla > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 19 23:29:13 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:29:13 -0500 Subject: Disk Drive....Repair (?) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D47C1B9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46284199.7060807@oldskool.org> No, THIS is the nightmare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c_MTX6-gYg&NR=1 (However, this is also fake/staged/not a real facility.) Billy Pettit wrote: > A nightmare is up on youtube. At least it hits me that way, as a full time > disk person. > > > > Billy > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQzGIqp4t8 > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Apr 19 23:33:35 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:33:35 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <200704171702.l3HH1BWq076578@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005601c78305$12d93b50$6701a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:09:32 -0500 > From: "Jay West" > Subject: Re: Linux question > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <002a01c78102$69f9e150$6500a8c0 at BILLING> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Someone wrote... > >> At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list > >> had some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well > >> south of 50%. > I will make my own generalization - that the above is > probably not correct > ;) > > Doc wrote... > > The response to any query on this list depends on the > rarity of the > > hardware, the level of past experience with that hardware (a lot of > > listers have worked with systems they don't currently own), > the clarity > > and amount of detail in the question, whether there's a > tasty flame war > > ongoing, and the positions of the moon, Mars, and Uranus. > Actually, that's a very good synopsis. > > > I've asked questions here and gotten dead silence; asked the same > > question again in a few weeks and gotten lots of response > and several > > solutions. > And completely correct here too - I have had the exact same > thing occur on > quite a few occasions. Sometime peoples minds are just > elsewhere, and that's > ok. > > > Trying to make something of that or draw some conclusion > from it is Not > > Right. > Well, I'll go as far as "incorrect" :D > > Jay > I have been on this list for around 10 years and can say with pretty fair certainty that the mix of posts has changed substantially during that time. Jay, perhaps you don't notice this because the type of things you're most interested in - old HP and DEC gear - are still actively discussed. But discussions of the small stuff: 8-bit micros, CP/M machines, Apple Lisa's, HP Series 80, etc., have all but disappeared. There used to be a pretty active discussion about these sort of machines on the list, and a lot of resources to draw on, but no longer. Posts about those sorts of hardware are few and far between and are, when they do occur, usually generate no threads. As I previously said, that's an observation/conclusion, and other are entitled to agree, disagree or vituperate, but I think it's backed by empirical evidence. Some may not like the conclusion, or claim it's incorrect, but this is something I've observed for at least a few years and I have a lot of archived posts that seem to bear me out. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was using an example - in this case the relative response to the Linux post vs. the Kaypro post - as an example of a general trend. Naturally, the naysayers, serial disagreers and chronic debunkers conveniently ignore the obvious and pretend that I am trying to draw a broad conclusion from a single occurrence, even though they know (or damn well should know) that's not the case. From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Apr 19 23:43:17 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:43:17 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704180704.l3I73XPu094745@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005701c78306$6d2b86c0$6701a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:57:43 +1000 > From: Doug Jackson > Subject: Quick survey on equipment > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <46257B17.3080905 at stillhq.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Some have questioned the number of people on the list who > have CP/M systems. > > Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! > > Pulsar Little Big Board - z80 CP/M 2.2 > Bondewll 2 - z80 - CP/M 2.2 > > On the list of non CP/M systems: > > 3 x Apple II 5.25" disk systems > 7 x Apple Mac systems (various) > > TRS-80 Model 1, 4, 4P > 2 x Disk Smith System 80 > 1 Exidy Sourcerer > > 1 Energy Control Rockwell 65F11 (forth) system > 1 Homebrew 65F12 system > > Amstrad CPC464 > > TI99/4A - No disk system though :-( > > Bucketloads of HP & TI Calculators > > No DEC Equipment - So can't help there (But I do have a SBC6120 PDP8 > emulator.) > > > Doug > Without venturing into the storage room: Kaypro 2, II (2), 4 and 10 Osborne OCC-I, Executive PMC Micromate (2) Heathkit H89 (2) Morrow MD11 Seequa Chameleon Sony SMC-70 Televideo TS-802, TS-803 HP-87 (with CP/M module) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 17:00:12 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:00:12 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGR00I7QME3HIU5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:25:46 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19 Apr 2007 at 9:48, Allison wrote: > >> >Maybe, but it couldn't run JRT Pascal. AFAIK, the only commercial >> >product that ever used the bizarre coding sequence: >> > >> > LXI SP, PROC-1 >> > CALL PROC >> >> JRT Pascal was Z80 code if memory serves. But LXI SP, value is >> valid as the arithmetic is done at compile time not execution. > >Nope--8080. I've still got the 1.0 disk. One can precede this >sequence with (and I think that JRT did): I have V3 and never had a problem, guess they fixed it. > > LXI H,0 > DAD SP Only way to get the SP on 8080. Liked the Z80 because they fixed that. >to get the old SP value into the HL register pair prior to the LXI >SP. And it is a V20 bug--I remember calling the NEC technical guy >in Natick and getting about 10 words into the report and having him >say "JRT Pascal, right?". If anyone's interested in the V20 errata, >I've still got the stuff. Was that Charlie or Ted? I'd like to see the report or erata mostly since it would fit nicely in my NEC file. >JRT was one of the earlier attempts at "virtual" 8080 code; it >swapped procedures from floppy. Of course, it was miserably slow, >but at something like $30 for a Pascal, it looked like a great deal. >Of course it was buggy as the dickens. I think the oddball calling >sequence was to keep the stack adjacent to the procedure for >subsequent swapping, rather than having to deal with a single stack >that might well overflow without special handling routines, given the >"virtual" nature of JRT Pascal. Doing anything on 8080 that was virtual was slow. V3 was still $30 and slow but it did work. >> In the end running an 8080 (V20) >> when I have Z80 or even fast(6mhz HmosII) 8085s is sort of >> less than interesting. > >Maybe, but you use what you have at your disposal, even if it is an >8080. And most professional apps for CP/M used the 8080 instruction >set initially--only later did a bunch of Z80-specific (e.g. ZCPR) >code come out. I never could understand this--in general, little to >be gained in speed by using Z80 codes. By time the V20 hit the street I was running hand upd780s at 8mhz and had at least three s100 crates going. >FWIW, I still use 22NICE on Win2K. It nicely integrates old CP/M >apps into the Windows environment without having to create virtual >disks or such stuff, so using apps under emulation is no harder than >using native ones. Still have it and use it, interesting tool. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 17:03:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:03:49 -0400 Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) Message-ID: <0JGR00520MK4QXR5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) > From: "Barry Watzman" > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:54:42 -0400 > To: > >Re: > >From: "Robert Armstrong" >Subject: WH-27 Problems (was RE: Heathkit H8's, H9's and H-11's) > >..... > > In extended mode the drive could handle 512K diskettes ... So the bottom >line is that if you want to run standard RT-11 on the H-11, you have to set >the switch to RX-01 mode and you have the equivalent of an RX01 drive. No >double density ... > >************* > >I don't think that's correct; the controller in the H-27 (WH-27) is a Z-80 >with a Western Digital 1771. The 1771 is most definitely single density >only. It's not capable of double density. Barry is correct. I know the beastie well enough and single density was it's thing. However there was a third party version on the market that could do DD (but not DEC RX02) and was modeled like the H27. there wer others in the PDP-11 market that did compatable rx02 DD (two sided) such as the DSD880 and a few others. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 19 17:17:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:17:32 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGR00JSJN6ZS119@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: Jim Battle > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:19:48 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ... And most professional apps for CP/M used the 8080 instruction >> set initially--only later did a bunch of Z80-specific (e.g. ZCPR) >> code come out. I never could understand this--in general, little to >> be gained in speed by using Z80 codes. > >I thought the main motivation was footprint, not speed. The relative >jumps save a byte each time they are used, and djnz saved two. the Z80 instruction set not only had the relative jump, and DJNZ but also small fixes like the the asymetric problem of you could load the SP but in 8080 you had to burn a register to get the SP contents. The block moves and bit tests are worthwhile too. Where the Z80 gained speed was 4mhz and faster (best 8080 hit was 3) and a much more sophisticated interrupt capability. That and those index registers helped solve those times when 8080 needed more registers to play with pointers without twisty code. >One of the most wasteful features in the 8080 instruction set, I >thought, were the 8 conditional calls and 8 conditional returns. I >would have much rather they had only unconditional call and >unconditional return only and used those 16 opcodes for something more >useful. Sure, they were useful once in a while, but not so often that >they should use up 6% of the single byte opcode space. ;) 8080 was what it was and compare to the 8008 a huge improvement. What was more interesting to me at that time was to 6800 and 6502 which were in many ways simpler yet better by a differt route. One of the oddities of most cpus is 90% of the code is done with a small portion of the instrucion set. the remaining 10% of code may use less than 50% of the unused to that point instructions. There are always a few that are nearly never used. One example of a 8080 (and 8085 and z80 usage) is ORA A with in one assembler I renamed to SEF (set flags). The 8080 family is loaded with instructions like that. At the other extreme.. 8085 and z80 "unsupported" instructions that every chip maker insures are there and behave the same even if not specified. Allison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 20 01:03:50 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: <46280DB8.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4627FC75.1090206@mdrconsult.com> <46280DB8.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, woodelf wrote: > Also with my bad luck with power supplies, I refuse to buy any kit that does > not have a power supply or box to put the card in. This kit will accept an x86 power supply. Many people have acquired old SCSI cases for their P112s. It requires a bit of fiddling with aluminum to make a mounting bracket, but you get a good compact chassis, power supply, and room for your floppy drives. Terry Gulczynski (he makes the IDE card) has ATX mounting brackets for sale. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 01:06:36 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:06:36 -0700 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors Message-ID: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> hi guys I was just remembering back about 20-25 years ago when i was in my 10-15 years old going to work with my step dad who worked at a mining co that had a bid datacenter and was awed at the computer monitors that were hooked up to the mainframe the bulk of the monitors were these great big ones that sat on the desk they were probably 2'wide X 1 1/2'-2'high and about 3' deep the base cume up about 6" then curved out so you could see the main screen like so forgive the drawing ----------------- ! ! ! ! !__ ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ------------- CROSS SECTION I would like to know what motel that was all i remember it was stamped IBM and if there are any pic's arround then a couple years leter i remember we got these lcd plasma type displays about 1985 or 86 about 2.5 feet tall 2.5 feet wide but only bout 1 foot thick and they were neat because they could be 4 small monitors or 2 or 1 big monitor but they only had one color flouresent orange im trying to figure out what these are to tx 4 your time Chris From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 20 01:40:41 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:40:41 -0700 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46286069.5090601@msm.umr.edu> Chris Halarewich wrote: > hi guys > > Chris Looks a lot like IBM 3278's or maybe Memorex, who also shaped their terminals like that to match IBM. Ibm had originally green phosophor for their monochrome displays, but later had color, with the usual default being green. Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 20 02:05:11 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:05:11 +0100 Subject: P112 reorders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46286627.1030003@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: > I have around five P112 kits left and the question of making more has come > up in private email. How many of you would be interested in acquiring one > of these CP/M computer kits? See http://frotz.homeunix.org/ for a full > description and pics. I'm interested - it looks like a neat little machine. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 03:03:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:03:36 -0700 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGR00I7QME3HIU5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGR00I7QME3HIU5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46281168.31472.27A4CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 18:00, Allison wrote: > Was that Charlie or Ted? I'd like to see the report or erata mostly > since it would fit nicely in my NEC file. I believe my contact was Rich Naro, but I'll have to check my old correspondence to make sure I'm not hallucinating. IIRC, there was also an interesting problem with the V20 and emulation mode using an 8087. If you had an 8080 opcode that corresponded to an NDP instruction, doing a BRKEM near it could produce interesting results. The fix was to fill 8 bytes either side of the BRKEM with some known non-NDP opcodes, like NOPs. > By time the V20 hit the street I was running hand upd780s at 8mhz > and had at least three s100 crates going. When did the Z80H hit the street? Now, you can get a VHDL version that runs in an FPGA at what, something like 40 MHz? > Still have it and use it, interesting tool. Thank you. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 20 04:26:06 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 02:26:06 -0700 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> <46286069.5090601@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46288730.4A567234@cs.ubc.ca> jim wrote: > I was just remembering back about 20-25 years ago when i was in my >10-15 years old going to work with my step dad who worked at a mining co >that had a bid datacenter and was awed at the computer monitors that were >hooked up to the mainframe the bulk of the monitors were these great big >ones that sat on the desk they were probably 2'wide X 1 1/2'-2'high and >about 3' deep the base cume up about 6" then curved out so you could see the >main screen like so forgive the drawing > >----------------- >! ! >! ! >!__ ! > ! ! > ! ! > ! ! > ------------- > >CROSS SECTION > > >I would like to know what motel that was all i remember it was stamped IBM >and if there are any pic's arround IBM 3270-style terminals had that sort of profile, here's a page with a picture of a 3270, although you don't get a cross-section perspective: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/3270.html >ones that sat on the desk they were probably 2'wide X 1 1/2'-2'high and >about 3' deep the base cume up about 6" then curved out so you could see the The 3270-style weren't quite that large, but perhaps it's that scaled-up memory effect as you're bigger now. .. I always found the 3270-style terminals kind of funny the way they loomed up and towards you, as if the computer was peering back at you, or intentionally engaging with you. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 07:41:07 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 05:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <005601c78305$12d93b50$6701a8c0@Wayne> from Wayne Smith at "Apr 19, 7 09:33:35 pm" Message-ID: <200704201241.l3KCf7bL015338@floodgap.com> > I have been on this list for around 10 years and can say with pretty > fair certainty that the mix of posts has changed substantially during > that time. Jay, perhaps you don't notice this because the type of > things you're most interested in - old HP and DEC gear - are still > actively discussed. But discussions of the small stuff: 8-bit micros, > CP/M machines, Apple Lisa's, HP Series 80, etc., have all but > disappeared. There used to be a pretty active discussion about these > sort of machines on the list, and a lot of resources to draw on, but no > longer. Posts about those sorts of hardware are few and far between and > are, when they do occur, usually generate no threads. [...] > of a general trend. Naturally, the naysayers, serial disagreers and > chronic debunkers conveniently ignore the obvious and pretend that I am > trying to draw a broad conclusion from a single occurrence, even though > they know (or damn well should know) that's not the case. So let's go ahead and say that's true. Now what? I'm not sure what making an observation like this achieves other than to kvetch. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mistakes are often the stepping stones to catastrophic failure. ------------ From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 07:46:37 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:46:37 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! Message-ID: Allison, Well hats off to you, it worked! I have now fixed the faulty internals of the two faulty Micropolis hard drives by teasing out the black gooey mass that use to be the head park rebound bumper / end stops for each drive. They had turned into a black sticky mush and as you correctly identified were holding the heads from un-parking. However one of the logic board has also gone faulty so if anyone has a spare faulty drive they would be willing to part with the hopefully working bottom logic board please contact me. Drive type: Micropolis 1355 ESDI 5 1/4 full height (144 MB) Part no. 900568-11-4a Faulty PCB part number: 101942-04-3 B2 Eprom fitted: 800140-03-0 (But this is just for ref) Many thanks, Andy. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 20 08:21:32 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:21:32 -0500 Subject: Linux question References: <005601c78305$12d93b50$6701a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING> Wayne wrote.... > I have been on this list for around 10 years and can say with pretty > fair certainty that the mix of posts has changed substantially during > that time. Jay, perhaps you don't notice this because the type of > things you're most interested in - old HP and DEC gear - are still > actively discussed. But discussions of the small stuff: 8-bit micros, > CP/M machines, Apple Lisa's, HP Series 80, etc., have all but > disappeared. Well, I have been around a while as well. You and I are obviously looking at the same data, but coming up with different conclusions and/or views about it. Yes, there has been a lot of discussion here of HP and DEC mini gear as of late. However, that generally hasn't been just "idle discussion". The HP and DEC mini discussions have been forefront for a while. But I would put forth that the reason for that isn't that the list makeup or focus has changed. I would submit for consideration that it is because several people (including me) are currently restoring a particular machine of that variety - hence the abundance of discussion on the list about it. When someone is doing a particular restoration on the list, they tend to ask a lot of questions about a particular machine because that is what is on their bench at the time. Others who are familiar with the machine chime in, and it stirs up even further discussion. I have gone through three major dec mini restorations over the past year or two and asked a lot of questions here perhaps causing that focus. I daresay that the 8 bit micros, lisa's, and HP series 80 stuff is alive and well... and when someone starts asking lots of questions (someone asking just one question is statistically a bad example to view the "flock of birds" effect) the bulk of the list will chime in. For example... I note that the thread about CPM machines certainly started a lot of active discussion. I also know for a fact there has been frequent discussion of the HP series 80 and 98xx on the list so I must respectfully disagree with that part. The micro stuff is alive and well here... but everything can't always be on the front burner at the same moment. And by the way - I have far far more micros in my collection than minis, principally due to my huge heathkit holdings. But I also have apple ][ and TRS80 machines. The simple fact is I can't restore all my machines at once, I have to go through them one at a time. I have to do the minis first because that is going to make the most room to work on the other machines. Trust me... when I get to restoring/learning/playing with my heathkit, apple, and trs80 stuff you'll see me asking a lot of questions here and the "most common" topic will change. I'm not saying that I personally steer conversation here, because anyone else asking more than a few micro questions will see the same effect result. Just my own thoughts on it. Jay From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 20 06:22:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:22:40 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGS00I22NL0GLI6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:30:37 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19 Apr 2007 at 13:07, Allison wrote: > >>> While the OS didn't do that it was easy to have your own FCB(s) >and >> the OS would not limit you. > >....unless you were porting to MP/M, in which case too-ambitious >manipulation of FCBs could come back and bite you, since MP/M did >track file opens True but many applications ran well under it anyway. >> CP/M was a big step up from OSs like NSdos that only did sequential >> allocation and even more limited user interface. > >Sequential or consecutive? Consecutive allocation was not a bad >thing, provided that it allowed for expansion of a file by adding >additional extents. Indeed, it could be much faster than simple >granular allocation when seek time is an issue. I've worked on a >couple of mainframe allocation systems that used consecutive-with- >extension allocation with no particular problems. I routinely run >into them in conversion (e.g. IBM DIsplaywriter). A Smith-Corona >typewriter uses sequential allocation in that each allocation unit >is placed physically later on the disk than the previous one, but not >necessarily adjacent to the preceding one. Sequential and consecutive. However NSdos (like RT11) does not have a way to allocate addional space. For example, in File A,B,C are in place and A needs to be enlarged. Under NSdos you have to copy A to A1, append the data to it and delete A and rename A1 to A. Now if you need the space on the disk that A occupied you must compact the disk. This was particulary nasty if the file was larger than half the disk size as you run out of space. NSdos was a bag and tag file system. >> CPM3 and MPM allowed for 512byte sectors and 32mb max logical drive size. > >You must be looking at MP/M I. The maximum drive size for MP/M II is >512MB using 16K allocation units. The maximum file size, however is >still 8 MB. I was. >> CP/M2 is non multitasking, V3 and MPM which are related (same filesystem >> and bdos calls) it can be an issue. However, the non-multitask status >> of CP/MV2 didn't prevent things like background printing or interrupt >> driven IO though it meant the BIOS implmentor had to do the work. > >Didn't the CP/M SPOOL program simply hook the printer BIOS vector and >install itself below CCP like the XSUB program? It's been a long >time, so it might have been above the CBIOS also. That was one of the few that did that. There was nothing to prevent many apps from doing that. >> Other oddities is there was no MBR or on disk partition tables for >> large drives. The partition info was kept in the DPH/DPB inside the BIOS. > >I suspect that DRI considered that area to be an issue left to the >implementor. We certainly allowed two OS-es to reside on the same >drive by simply implementing our own partition table scheme and >making the hard disk access routines aware of it. MS-DOS scarcely >does anything much more elegant. Back then two OSs on a disk would have been truly extravagant. >> Only required for floppy or the uncommon removable harddisk >> (CDC hawk anyone). > >....or Syquest removables (SQ100) which were around early enough, >albeit after the PC, to find their way onto some Z80 CP/M systems. My point of reference was pre PC. By post PC thre weree enough things changing like the availability of inexpensive (under $1000) hard disks and controllers to be significant. Prior to that (especially pre1980) it was 8" and 14" fixed drives and a few 14" removeables. I still ahve a Syquest270 (with parallelport adaptor) that both works and I have about 15 disks for it. >I seem to recall seeing an OS being advertised in one of the mags in >the late 70's that offered CP/M functional compatibility, but also >featured a hierarchical directory structure. I don't recall the >name, but a friend was all fired up about it. There may have been one but I never saw one in action. The idea of hierarchical directory pre 1980 was pretty radical for a micro system. Allison From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 08:53:31 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:53:31 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <0JGP00A0CHKGEJF4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGP00A0CHKGEJF4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: My computer list, such as it is: 1) Tangerine Microtan 65, Tanex, hand built 16K Dram card, Eprom card, System rack 6502 based home built system with 32K Microsoft Basic in eprom. I built this from kit when started a colleague. 2) Z80 (8080) single board CP/M system, like a big board, 2 * 8" Tandon slim floppy drives. Numerous 8" floppies with various programs and data. 3) Osborne 1A, monitor HT is faulty, and no system discs. 4) Sparc Station Voyager, based on the Sparc 5. I have one mint system and the original development system from the Sun development team. This has transparent plastics and was used to develop the system cooling, screening and clearance. http://www.milestonesolutions.com/voyager/ 5) Sparc 5 + Sun colour monitor. 6) Masscomp MC5450, 68020 Multibus system, STD+ data acquisition modules for A/D12fa, D/A08, and PI16, and GCM graphics. I have 5 chassis and various spares for these systems with some parts but no chassis for the earlier 6800 / 68010 MC5500systems. I'm still looking for a MC5600 dual CPU unit.... 7) BBC B, 6502 based home computers several. 8) ALpha server 1000a, no ram no, no disks / carriers. 9) Single board 286 system, uses a passive 3 slot AT backplane. 10) Compaq 486 pc. nasty thing, but was free from a skip. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 20 09:06:55 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:06:55 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> Teo, I don't have an archive but I should have several of the disks. In fact I found one last night and will be happy to image and post it in a few days (I'll have to dig out a Mac with a floppy). The reason you don't see drivers is because majority of the Mac Video Nubus cards contain the drivers in ROM on the card. A lot of times, the "driver" ( I hate to call it that) simply put in an extension that toggled some bits in the PRAM for acceleration or such. I use to be the engineering manager for Xceed Technology. We used to buy a bunch of our competitors cards to test compatibility and MacBench our video cards against them. As I go through more of my floppies, I'll set aside the Rasterops ones I find. Rob On Apr 18, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody happen to have a Rasterops archive for Mac Nubus cards? I > have a few older cards (Mediatime, 24stv, 24si, Acellerator II, > etc) and was looking for drivers. > > These seem to be harder to find then the common Supermac and Radius > stuff. Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 20 09:08:16 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:08:16 -0300 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <102201c78356$231bf790$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I was just remembering back about 20-25 years ago when i was in my > 10-15 years old going to work with my step dad who worked at a mining co > that had a bid datacenter and was awed at the computer monitors that were > hooked up to the mainframe the bulk of the monitors were these great big > ones that sat on the desk they were probably 2'wide X 1 1/2'-2'high and > about 3' deep the base cume up about 6" then curved out so you could see > the > main screen like so forgive the drawing IBM3274/ or 3276...The most common (?) mainframe terminal in existence ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 20 09:12:52 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:12:52 -0300 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? References: Message-ID: <102301c78356$2b9a5830$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Nope, all the SGI machines in this auction were sans hard drives: > :oO Does it runs "doom" in 4D-Virtual-Reality-Lawnmover-man-system? :o) Greetz. Alexandre :o) From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 20 09:16:13 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:16:13 -0400 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704201016.13694.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 20 April 2007 02:06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hi guys > ----------------- > ! ! > ! ! > !__ ! > ! ! > ! ! > ! ! > ------------- Does it look like the 3278 I've got pictured here? http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/mp2003/ Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 09:20:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:20:09 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <0JGS00I22NL0GLI6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGS00I22NL0GLI6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4628CC19.7000106@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>> Other oddities is there was no MBR or on disk partition tables for >>> large drives. The partition info was kept in the DPH/DPB inside the BIOS. >> I suspect that DRI considered that area to be an issue left to the >> implementor. We certainly allowed two OS-es to reside on the same >> drive by simply implementing our own partition table scheme and >> making the hard disk access routines aware of it. MS-DOS scarcely >> does anything much more elegant. > > Back then two OSs on a disk would have been truly extravagant. Only in the microcomputer world. 8-) IBM mainframes have been doing multiple OSes on the same disk since 1967. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 20 09:39:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:39:01 -0500 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <005601c78305$12d93b50$6701a8c0@Wayne> <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4628D085.5030101@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Wayne wrote.... >> I have been on this list for around 10 years and can say with pretty >> fair certainty that the mix of posts has changed substantially during >> that time. Jay, perhaps you don't notice this because the type of >> things you're most interested in - old HP and DEC gear - are still >> actively discussed. But discussions of the small stuff: 8-bit micros, >> CP/M machines, Apple Lisa's, HP Series 80, etc., have all but >> disappeared. > Well, I have been around a while as well. You and I are obviously > looking at the same data, but coming up with different conclusions > and/or views about it. I'm sort-of with Wayne on this one in terms of observation, but I think it's probably because more areas for discussion have appeared in recent years (mailing lists, web forae and usenet groups) for the smaller micros that people often "grew up with". Coupled with that is the fact that a lot of the 8-bitters have now got very comprehensive coverage via websites, so there's less need to ask "how do I?" type questions than there once was. As an example, I wouldn't probably post here (at least not primarily) about anything to do with Acorn because I'd expect the people with the knowledge are more likely to be lurking on the acorn.* usenet groups, or the BBC micro mailing list etc. - plus a quick Google search can often turn up what I need to know. *But* I don't think that's a bad thing. People can't be everywhere at once :) What this list provides is a fantastic resource for general history and information, as well as catering for some of the more unusual systems that are out there. If there were twice as many (or more) messages a day on here I wouldn't get time to read the list properly anyway. So yes, I think there has been a change in the popularity of certain topics on here over the years, but overall it's actually a positive thing; the information hasn't gone from the surface of the planet - it's merely moved... :-) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 20 09:43:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:43:56 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric basedterminal) In-Reply-To: <1177004783.1899.76.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: >From: Warren Wolfe > >On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 13:13 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > > The H-9 was flakey even when it was introduced. It was not a reliable > > product, and will probably be difficult to get working. Probably bad >ICs > > or, worse, bad IC sockets. > > > On Navy ships, a large chunk of zinc is connected to the steel hull >at some point. Then, when oxidation, and other electro-chemical >degradation takes place, this "sacrificial anode" is where essentially >all the corrosion takes place. Every now and then, the remnants of the >zinc are removed, and a new block is attached. (It's VERY easy and >cheap to replace a block of zinc - repairing a thinning, corroding hull >is quite another matter.) > > Somehow, I think the header pins on the H-9 were acting as >sacrificial anodes in that machine. You're probably in a MUCH better >position to answer this than I am. An H-9 was the first terminal I >OWNED to use with my IMSAI 8080. Previously, I had borrowed a Teletype >ASR-33, with the punch and all... whatever the exact model is. Anyway, >after about two or three days, I would literally have to take the damned >thing apart, and clean off all the headers (with long pins) by which all >the various boards were interconnected. ---snip--- Hi It is a common problem when dissimilar metals are in contact. I recall working on a piece of equipment that someone had installed all gold surfaced sockets. The parts were all solderplated pins. As you can guess, it didn't work as expected. There were a lot of bad contacts. As I've posted in the past, I've a solution that has worked well for me over the years. I put silicon grease on the pins. This isn't heat sink grease. That has fillers. The stuff I found works well is DoweCorning #4. It is available at many electrical shops and places like McMaster-Carr. Even though it is an insulator, it improves the electrical contact and slows corrosion. I've used this on things like pinball machines and computers( many of which are still running after many years ). There are products that many HiFi shops have as well for this purpose. I've never tried these but I'm sure they would work as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 09:45:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:45:34 -0400 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <102201c78356$231bf790$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> <102201c78356$231bf790$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4628D20E.8050701@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I was just remembering back about 20-25 years ago when i was in my >> 10-15 years old going to work with my step dad who worked at a mining co >> that had a bid datacenter and was awed at the computer monitors that were >> hooked up to the mainframe the bulk of the monitors were these great big >> ones that sat on the desk they were probably 2'wide X 1 1/2'-2'high and >> about 3' deep the base cume up about 6" then curved out so you could >> see the >> main screen like so forgive the drawing > > IBM3274/ or 3276...The most common (?) mainframe terminal in > existence ;o) I thought the 3278 was the most common. If memory serves, the 3274 is a terminal controller. I think the 3276 is a direct-attached terminal with a built-in terminal controller. Peace... Sridhar From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 10:35:08 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:35:08 -0700 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090704200835p26f08250nfd0778865fd0a144@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > hi guys > > then a couple years leter i remember we got these lcd plasma type displays > about 1985 or 86 about 2.5 feet tall 2.5 feet wide but only bout 1 foot > thick and they were neat because they could be 4 small monitors or 2 or 1 > big monitor but they only had one color flouresent orange im trying to > figure out what these are to > tx 4 your time > > Chris > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 10:35:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:35:26 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H8's & H9's (was Help to identify a Selectric based terminal) In-Reply-To: <1177004783.1899.76.camel@linux.site> References: <002f01c78113$afc16f80$6500a8c0@barry>, <1177004783.1899.76.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <46287B4E.8155.294277CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2007 at 13:46, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Navy ships, a large chunk of zinc is connected to the steel hull > at some point. Then, when oxidation, and other electro-chemical > degradation takes place, this "sacrificial anode" is where essentially > all the corrosion takes place. Every now and then, the remnants of the > zinc are removed, and a new block is attached. (It's VERY easy and > cheap to replace a block of zinc - repairing a thinning, corroding hull > is quite another matter.) You've probably got the same type of anode in the tank your home water heater, except that it's most likely magnesium. It's surprising how few homeowners know about this and allow the anode to corrode away to nothing (eventually resulting in a leaking tank)-- it's usually very easy to replace one. Another approach used in buried pipelines is to impart a small current between the pipe and earth. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 20 10:48:29 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 17:48:29 +0200 Subject: IRIS Indigo PM2 post-portem In-Reply-To: <4627CA54.7010703@machineroom.info> References: <8v6gcy4l3x2krjp.170420070942@jvdg.com> <20070418214405.21644fdc@SirToby.dinner41.local> <4627CA54.7010703@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20070420174829.211fef10@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:00:20 +0100 James wrote: > I'm glad my little web page came in useful :-) Small world. ;-) Thanks for puting this valuable information online. > The machine that PSU is in is a R4400, full memory, Elan graphics, > fast 9GB drive. Been running fine for years. The machine in question was a basic R3k with LG1 owned by a friend. I did the soldering, but I don't know if he has tested the machine meanwhile. (I soldered an ATX power socket to the wires so that he can add a ATX PSU later on his own.) > If anyone repairs an existing PSU and manages to fill in the missing > pins (A,B & C) on my pinout I'd be happy to update the site. I can't remember exactely. One or two where related to the reset switch and one was GND, or somthing like that. Sorry. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 11:20:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:20:23 -0700 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <4628D085.5030101@yahoo.co.uk> References: <005601c78305$12d93b50$6701a8c0@Wayne>, <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING>, <4628D085.5030101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462885D7.12199.296BA0D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2007 at 9:39, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm sort-of with Wayne on this one in terms of observation, but I think it's > probably because more areas for discussion have appeared in recent years > (mailing lists, web forae and usenet groups) for the smaller micros that > people often "grew up with". Coupled with that is the fact that a lot of the > 8-bitters have now got very comprehensive coverage via websites, so there's > less need to ask "how do I?" type questions than there once was. There's another aspect--the heyday of 8-bit processors is retreating into the past. There were more operating systems than many people realize. During 1976-1980, it wasn't at all clear that CP/M was the only way to go. Given the relatively small footprint of an 8-bit OS in a 64K memory space, some chose to "roll their own". Alas, that bit of history seems to be what's being lost. At Durango, we went down to Pacific Grove and talked to DRI about CP/M and came away with the feeling that it was too primitive for our needs. So we rolled our own system, complete with utlities, languages and applications for a full-blown multitasking system with file locking, indexed sequential file management, boot-time system configuration and a host of other features. And we were just one of the many firms developing 8-bit products. But then, this wasn't a "home" or "personal" system. The PC wasn't an instant success; I recall that a friend looking for a system for his business passed over the IBM PC as being too expensive and immature and purchased a Morrow MD2 system. He was quite content with it for years. A 4.77 MHz 8088 really didn't have that much of a speed advantage over a 4 MHz Z80--and the planar memory on the original 5150 was 64K. It was much more of a horse race before the PC-XT hit the market. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 20 11:36:38 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:36:38 -0400 Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <005601c78305$12d93b50$6701a8c0@Wayne> <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4628EC16.3030005@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > When someone is doing a particular restoration on the list, they tend to > ask a lot of questions about a particular machine because that is what > is on their bench at the time. Others who are familiar with the machine > chime in, and it stirs up even further discussion. I have gone through > three major dec mini restorations over the past year or two and asked a > lot of questions here perhaps causing that focus. It goes farther than that. When you guys start talking about, say, CP/M, I think "Hey! Jim is saving a Kaypro 10 for me! I should go get it out of his way and get it up an running. and maybe even that K2 in the closet with the busted keyboard jack." When one member is doing a restore, or just learning a new system, and asking questions, that dialog tends to renew *everyone's* focus on that class of machine or software. So any major trend tends to build on itself and suck the rest of us in. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 20 12:19:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:19:58 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:12:52 -0300. <102301c78356$2b9a5830$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <102301c78356$2b9a5830$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > > Nope, all the SGI machines in this auction were sans hard drives: > > > > :oO > > Does it runs "doom" in 4D-Virtual-Reality-Lawnmover-man-system? :o) Actually, there is an X11 port of doom that runs on SGI boxes, so yeah, I could probably run doom on that once I get hard drives and an OS on it. I don't think it would be lawnmower man style (god, what an awful movie). LM came out in 1992 and the "Reality Monster" came out in 1999. I guess that doesn't really make this machine "vintage" so much as "discontinued". Still, getting 4 racks of SGI iron for $666 (the devil made me do it!) is a steal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Apr 20 11:50:28 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:50:28 -0300 Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! Message-ID: <01C78352.DBD56220@MSE_D03> ----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:46:37 +0100 From: "Andy Piercy" Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! >I have now fixed the faulty internals of the two faulty Micropolis hard drives by teasing out the black gooey mass that use to be the head park rebound bumper / end stops for each drive. >They had turned into a black sticky mush and as you correctly identified were holding the heads from un-parking. >Andy. ----------------------------- I have a 1335 which so far is OK; does it look like this sticky mush could separate and contaminate the heads or can I safely wait until I have this problem (if I do) to open up the drive and remove it? mike From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 20 13:19:16 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:19:16 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Mac Rasterops Drivers > Teo, > I don't have an archive but I should have several of the disks. In > fact I found one last night and will be happy to image and post it in > a few days (I'll have to dig out a Mac with a floppy). The reason > you don't see drivers is because majority of the Mac Video Nubus > cards contain the drivers in ROM on the card. A lot of times, the > "driver" ( I hate to call it that) simply put in an extension that > toggled some bits in the PRAM for acceleration or such. I use to be > the engineering manager for Xceed Technology. We used to buy a bunch > of our competitors cards to test compatibility and MacBench our video > cards against them. > As I go through more of my floppies, I'll set aside the Rasterops > ones I find. > > Rob > I have a Micron Xceed ICDP-II, same company? From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 20 13:47:11 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:47:11 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <809FB12A-9D58-41D6-A65F-BB4E03F28040@colourfull.com> On Apr 20, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Teo, >> I don't have an archive but I should have several of the disks. In >> fact I found one last night and will be happy to image and post it in >> a few days (I'll have to dig out a Mac with a floppy). The reason >> you don't see drivers is because majority of the Mac Video Nubus >> cards contain the drivers in ROM on the card. A lot of times, the >> "driver" ( I hate to call it that) simply put in an extension that >> toggled some bits in the PRAM for acceleration or such. I use to be >> the engineering manager for Xceed Technology. We used to buy a bunch >> of our competitors cards to test compatibility and MacBench our video >> cards against them. >> As I go through more of my floppies, I'll set aside the Rasterops >> ones I find. >> >> Rob >> > I have a Micron Xceed ICDP-II, same company? > Yes, same company. Xceed was the enhanced products divison of Micron. It was bought a number of years ago by a contract manufacturer called PG Design. I came on board and worked on a a couple of projects. Our final one, before the parent company was sold and shortly went under, was the Xceed Colorfusion. Aahh..an ICDP-II. This was actually a storm compression card for photoshop. Twin AT&T DSP's. Cool card, I have one of the original prototypes from the project. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 20 14:09:03 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:09:03 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> <809FB12A-9D58-41D6-A65F-BB4E03F28040@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <004e01c7837f$5c6e0d70$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:47 PM Subject: Re: Mac Rasterops Drivers > Yes, same company. Xceed was the enhanced products divison of Micron. > It was bought a number of years ago by a contract manufacturer > called PG Design. I came on board and worked on a > a couple of projects. Our final one, before the parent company was > sold and shortly went under, was the Xceed Colorfusion. > Aahh..an ICDP-II. This was actually a storm compression card for > photoshop. Twin AT&T DSP's. Cool card, I have one of the > original prototypes from the project. > > > Rob > > Did Xceed have anything special for that card software wise? I have the Original STORM DSP card, a couple STORMs rebranded by Supermac, the GX add-on DSP card for the Supermac video adapters, and a Spectral Innovations macDSP II card (2x DSP32c's). They work well with Photoshop 3. I have a mountain of Nubus cards, getting drivers for some is hard these days. TZ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 20 14:09:24 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:09:24 -0700 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 20 April 2007 10:19, Richard wrote: --snip-- > Still, getting 4 racks of SGI iron for $666 > (the devil made me do it!) is a steal. Definitely a serious steal! I paid $500 for my Onyx2 IR2E and another $500 to upgrade it (incl. DIVO) and pickup a spare set of boards. I thought THAT was a steal ;-) Please let us know the hinv once you have it running (or a "manual hinv" when you receive it ;-) BTW: For non-SGI literate folks: "hinv" is a command to the SGI PROM monitor or IRIX which lists the hardware inventory of an SGI system. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 14:12:23 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <751166.9193.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Andy Piercy wrote: > Allison, > > Well hats off to you, it worked! > > I have now fixed the faulty internals of the two > faulty Micropolis hard > drives by teasing out the black gooey mass that use > to be the head park > rebound bumper / end stops for each drive. > > They had turned into a black sticky mush and as you > correctly identified > were holding the heads from un-parking. When removing this bumper, are you replacing it with something (say, a stick-on rubber foot) or simply removing it entirely? -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 14:18:04 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <6d6501090704200835p26f08250nfd0778865fd0a144@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <719049.76296.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The big metal beasts of IBM terminals you're thinking of were most likely 3278's, and the orange plasma terminal was a 3290. There are pictures of both types on corestore.org. 3278 - http://www.corestore.org/3278-3.jpg 3290 - http://www.corestore.org/3290-1.jpg -Ian From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 20 14:23:23 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:23:23 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <004e01c7837f$5c6e0d70$0b01a8c0@game> References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> <809FB12A-9D58-41D6-A65F-BB4E03F28040@colourfull.com> <004e01c7837f$5c6e0d70$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On Apr 20, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Did Xceed have anything special for that card software wise? I > have the > Original STORM DSP card, a couple STORMs rebranded by Supermac, the GX > add-on DSP card for the Supermac video adapters, and a Spectral > Innovations > macDSP II card (2x DSP32c's). They work well with Photoshop 3. > > I have a mountain of Nubus cards, getting drivers for some is hard > these > days. > > TZ Yes, I believe they did. When I'm digging through my floppies I'll set aside the storm software also (along with the RasterOps stuff). That's a pretty nice collection of cards. I really haven't had much interest in the cards as of late, in fact I just tossed out a bunch last month. The only card I've really been looking for is an Apple 8*24GC. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri Apr 20 14:27:34 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:27:34 +0200 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:12:52 -0300. <102301c78356$2b9a5830$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <11910126669.20070420212734@g-lenerz.de> Hi! Friday, April 20, 2007, 7:19:58 PM, you wrote: > Actually, there is an X11 port of doom that runs on SGI boxes, so > yeah, I could probably run doom on that once I get hard drives and an > OS on it. Running DOOM is a pretty basic task... I guess even an R4000 Indigo can handle several instances of the classic DOOM. I remember running different Lucas Arts adventures (3 or 4+) at the same time on an Indigo 2 without problems using 'scummvm'. Hey, why does "doing SGI" always equal flashy lights and games? ;-) > I don't think it would be lawnmower man style (god, what an > awful movie). LM came out in 1992 and the "Reality Monster" came out > in 1999. I guess that doesn't really make this machine "vintage" so > much as "discontinued". Still, getting 4 racks of SGI iron for $666 > (the devil made me do it!) is a steal. Agreed... it's a good price for a multiple rack system if you've got the space and the means to transport it. It might not be classic in the "old DEC" kind of way, but it is still a reasonable piece of iron to get hold of. Ok, I admit that I might be biased... ;-) -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri Apr 20 14:29:16 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:29:16 +0200 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <913239798.20070420212916@g-lenerz.de> Hello! Friday, April 20, 2007, 9:09:24 PM, you wrote: > BTW: For non-SGI literate folks: "hinv" is a command to the SGI PROM monitor > or IRIX which lists the hardware inventory of an SGI system. If there are equivalents in other systems, what are they? I guess that is the space where UNIX != UNIX != UNIX. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 20 14:51:30 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:51:30 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> <809FB12A-9D58-41D6-A65F-BB4E03F28040@colourfull.com> <004e01c7837f$5c6e0d70$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <006701c78385$4a6e2550$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Mac Rasterops Drivers > > On Apr 20, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > > Did Xceed have anything special for that card software wise? I > > have the > > Original STORM DSP card, a couple STORMs rebranded by Supermac, the GX > > add-on DSP card for the Supermac video adapters, and a Spectral > > Innovations > > macDSP II card (2x DSP32c's). They work well with Photoshop 3. > > > > I have a mountain of Nubus cards, getting drivers for some is hard > > these > > days. > > > > TZ > > > Yes, I believe they did. When I'm digging through my floppies I'll > set aside the storm software > also (along with the RasterOps stuff). That's a pretty nice > collection of cards. I really haven't had > much interest in the cards as of late, in fact I just tossed out a > bunch last month. The only card > I've really been looking for is an Apple 8*24GC. > > Rob > > I hope you did not throw away anything too rare (if you have more to junk let me know). The cards I listed were just the DSP cards I have, probably have 50+ Nubus cards by now. The 8*24GC is a nice card for an 030 (I don't have one yet). Has 2 slots for Gworld RAM (it uses IIfx RAM, wish I could find GWORLD for my Thunder/24 cards). I hear the AMD GPU on the GC gets toasty. TZ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 14:53:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: from Robert Borsuk at "Apr 20, 7 03:23:23 pm" Message-ID: <200704201953.l3KJrpsJ012788@floodgap.com> > The only card > I've really been looking for is an Apple 8*24GC. I love GCs. I refuse to part with any and guard them jealously. While they are very finicky about what they'll run in (no '040s), the VRAM slots are expensive to fill and they're wonky under 7.5, they're a very zippy card, get tossed out a lot because people confuse them with boring old 8*24s, and even can accelerate NuBus Power Macs with the ATI Graphics Accelerator extension under 7.6 and up. A high-end Radius will beat a GC, but not by a whole lot. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Kirk to Enterprise: beam down yeoman Rand and a six-pack." ---------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 14:59:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:59:39 -0400 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: <11910126669.20070420212734@g-lenerz.de> References: <102301c78356$2b9a5830$f0fea8c0@alpha> <11910126669.20070420212734@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: On 4/20/07, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Hey, why does "doing SGI" always equal flashy lights and games? ;-) Probably because nobody would give a Crimson with a Wyse terminal perched on top a second glance? ;-) -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 15:01:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <913239798.20070420212916@g-lenerz.de> from Gerhard Lenerz at "Apr 20, 7 09:29:16 pm" Message-ID: <200704202001.l3KK1gTF015246@floodgap.com> > > BTW: For non-SGI literate folks: "hinv" is a command to the SGI PROM monitor > > or IRIX which lists the hardware inventory of an SGI system. > > If there are equivalents in other systems, what are they? I guess that > is the space where UNIX != UNIX != UNIX. I don't know what hinv displays exactly, but dmesg will give a lot of hardware information (specifically the boot messages) on a number of Unixy things. AIX, of course, has to be contrary and use things like lsdev. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 20 15:12:10 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:12:10 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <006701c78385$4a6e2550$0b01a8c0@game> References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> <809FB12A-9D58-41D6-A65F-BB4E03F28040@colourfull.com> <004e01c7837f$5c6e0d70$0b01a8c0@game> <006701c78385$4a6e2550$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <60AF7726-E9FC-4949-A16D-CEA07ED4E93B@colourfull.com> On Apr 20, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I hope you did not throw away anything too rare (if you have more > to junk > let me know). The cards I listed were just the DSP cards I have, > probably > have 50+ Nubus cards by now. > > The 8*24GC is a nice card for an 030 (I don't have one yet). Has 2 > slots for > Gworld RAM (it uses IIfx RAM, wish I could find GWORLD for my > Thunder/24 > cards). I hear the AMD GPU on the GC gets toasty. > > TZ Teo, A bunch of storm cards, Xceed video cards, etc. I think I might have kept one or two of each. I would have to see. Are you in the states? I have a box on documentation that I've been looking for a home. I wanted someone who might have an interest in Nubus cards, like yourself. If you are, send me your address off list. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 20 15:15:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:15:30 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:09:24 -0700. <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200704201209.24485.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > > Still, getting 4 racks of SGI iron for $666 > > (the devil made me do it!) is a steal. > > Definitely a serious steal! Yep, also picked up: Crimson $50 "Tall boy" Onyx $50 I have no idea why this Onyx appears to be twice as high as the usual deskside units I've seen. What's in the extra space? Challenge $50 15 spaceballs and a trackball $177.50 So yeah, I'll be flying out and renting a truck to get that gear home. Hopefully I'll also have a chance to meet our esteemed list hoster Jay West in person and take a gander at his collection and drink a beer or two. All this gear is in St. Louis. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 20 15:30:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:30:25 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:27:34 +0200. <11910126669.20070420212734@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: In article <11910126669.20070420212734 at g-lenerz.de>, Gerhard Lenerz writes: > Agreed... it's a good price for a multiple rack system if you've got > the space and the means to transport it. It might not be classic in > the "old DEC" kind of way, but it is still a reasonable piece of iron > to get hold of. Ok, I admit that I might be biased... ;-) I'll fly out and rent a lift-gate truck from Penske to get it home. I have a warehouse location to store it (where my two Onyxs are currently). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 20 15:31:42 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:31:42 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <60AF7726-E9FC-4949-A16D-CEA07ED4E93B@colourfull.com> References: <003c01c781bf$ccf58e90$0b01a8c0@game> <82B1AA28-AA2E-4350-910D-AF1C09E919A3@colourfull.com> <003801c78378$6920cd20$0b01a8c0@game> <809FB12A-9D58-41D6-A65F-BB4E03F28040@colourfull.com> <004e01c7837f$5c6e0d70$0b01a8c0@game> <006701c78385$4a6e2550$0b01a8c0@game> <60AF7726-E9FC-4949-A16D-CEA07ED4E93B@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <97B2233C-8304-4BAB-A110-3024CA737F66@colourfull.com> On Apr 20, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Teo, > A bunch of storm cards, Xceed video cards, etc. I think I might > have kept one or two of each. I would have to see. > Are you in the states? I have a box on documentation that I've > been looking for a home. > I wanted someone who might have an interest in Nubus cards, like > yourself. If you are, send me your address off list. > > Rob > > Forgot, stipulation being that you would scan and post for all to have. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 15:46:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:46:02 -0400 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 4/20/07, Richard wrote: > Yep, also picked up: > > Crimson $50 > Can't exactly tell from the picture, but is that marked "Jurassic Classic"? We had one of those at OSU a while back - came from the Jurassic Park renderfarm, we were told. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 15:57:40 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:57:40 -0400 Subject: Show your stuff Message-ID: I will be in the Bay Area from the 7th thru 9th of May, part of my annual working vacation. If anyone wants to show off their collections of Big Iron - well I would't complain! Or if not, maybe just a pizza dinner rag chew jam session... I leave this Tuesday, but will be able to pick up email in Boulder in about a week. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 15:46:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:46:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Linux question In-Reply-To: <00a401c7834e$d0758940$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Apr 20, 7 08:21:32 am Message-ID: > When someone is doing a particular restoration on the list, they tend to ask > a lot of questions about a particular machine because that is what is on > their bench at the time. Others who are familiar with the machine chime in, If this is true, and it certainly seems to be, then the 'cure' for no real 80bit micro discussiosn is to start some. However, I've noticed that some 8-bit home computer threads don't seem to go anywhere. A couple of weeks back somebody posted about that ridiculously overpriced Tatung Einstein on E-bay. I posted some limited specs of the machine (I have one, it was one of the first machines I ever RE'd BTW), but it didn't generate much intereest. Oh well... > discussion. I also know for a fact there has been frequent discussion of the > HP series 80 and 98xx on the list so I must respectfully disagree with that The HP98xx machines cover a multitude of sins (and architectures!). Later ones are 68000 based, before that was the HP custom BPC hybrid circuit (as used in the 9825, 9831, 9845, 9835 -- in fact the 9845 either had a pair of them or one (for I/O) and a set of 3 boards full of 2900-seires stuff as a high-speed language processor). The HP9815 is clearly an 8 bit micro (there's a 6800 in there), the 98x0 machines that I've been known to go on about are slose to small minicomputers -- the processor is a bit-serieal thing built from TTL chips. > And by the way - I have far far more micros in my collection than minis, So di I, actually, (see the list I posted last night). But the reason I spend a lot of time on HP stuff (other than the fact that they're interesting, well-made machines) is that there's an active HP calculator club in the UK which gives me somewhere to show off my toys and what I've done with them. A silly reason I suppose, but... -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 20 09:48:01 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:48:01 -0400 Subject: CP/M survey Message-ID: <0JGS007U8X3723W3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M survey > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:03:36 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19 Apr 2007 at 18:00, Allison wrote: > >> Was that Charlie or Ted? I'd like to see the report or erata mostly >> since it would fit nicely in my NEC file. > >I believe my contact was Rich Naro, but I'll have to check my old >correspondence to make sure I'm not hallucinating. Sounds right as he replaced me more or less. Back in 82/83 the Natick operation was merged with EA to become NEC Electronics USA and most of the high level functions went west. I didn't, DEC was more interesting. >> By time the V20 hit the street I was running hand upd780s at 8mhz >> and had at least three s100 crates going. > >When did the Z80H hit the street? Now, you can get a VHDL version >that runs in an FPGA at what, something like 40 MHz? The z80H never got over 20mhz but, the 80S180 (z180) did hit the street at 33mhz. When you consider thats an instruction execution rate around 4mips thats not so bad. The downside is memory has to be under 15ns or one boatload of wait states! There are more flavours of the Z180 than carter has liver pills. There are FPGA cells that run at truly amazing speeds and also beasts like the eZ80 that cut the number of clock cycles needed for speed. The fastest machines I have (z80 based) is 10mhz (no waits) using Z80 CMOS and 12.5mhz running a Z280(version J). The latter screams with the cache and MMU running with 16bit wide zbus. The standard CP/M tools with raw speed and a harddisk makes for a very productive system. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 20 09:57:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:57:41 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! Message-ID: <0JGS0087BXJAUKZ1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! > From: "Andy Piercy" > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:46:37 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Allison, > >Well hats off to you, it worked! The advantage of being exDEC. I had a lot of stuck rd53s and built up a lab MicroVAX system by fixing a few when noone could get their hands on stuff (budgets). I figured they were officially dead and the worst that could happen is they get deader. I'd scrounge bits and peices and trade RD53s as needed with other groups to get the needed bits. My boss was surprized when a request for node address came back to her for approval for a system under my desk. When she saw the BA123 with 3 RD53s and a RD54 she wanted one, I produced that one in about a week. Getting her the 19" color monitor was tricky though. ;) >I have now fixed the faulty internals of the two faulty Micropolis hard >drives by teasing out the black gooey mass that use to be the head park >rebound bumper / end stops for each drive. > >They had turned into a black sticky mush and as you correctly identified >were holding the heads from un-parking. > >However one of the logic board has also gone faulty so if anyone has a spare >faulty drive they would be willing to part with the hopefully working bottom >logic board please contact me. You will likely have success finding a board or another complete drive (with stickies). Now that you know how to fix them you may find an excess of the drives results. ;) Allison > >Drive type: Micropolis 1355 ESDI 5 1/4 full >height (144 MB) >Part no. 900568-11-4a >Faulty PCB part number: 101942-04-3 B2 >Eprom fitted: 800140-03-0 (But this is just for >ref) > >Many thanks, > >Andy. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 20 16:16:35 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:16:35 -0300 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <10c501c78391$b83eabc0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > On 4/20/07, Richard wrote: >> Yep, also picked up: >> Crimson $50 >> > Can't exactly tell from the picture, but is that marked "Jurassic > Classic"? We had one of those at OSU a while back - came from the > Jurassic Park renderfarm, we were told. What I wouldn't give for one of that... :oO From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 20 16:33:43 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:33:43 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:46:02 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > On 4/20/07, Richard wrote: > > Yep, also picked up: > > > > Crimson $50 > > > > Can't exactly tell from the picture, but is that marked "Jurassic > Classic"? We had one of those at OSU a while back - came from the > Jurassic Park renderfarm, we were told. Interesting! I hadn't noticed that until you pointed it out. I've never seen a Crimson in person before, so I just assumed it was more SGI stencilling on the case. Unlike the 2 Onyx machines I obtained previously, all of these machines appear to have a full set of skins, which is always nice with these big SGI boxes as the skins are fragile. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 20 16:35:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:35:42 -0600 Subject: Show your stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:57:40 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > I will be in the Bay Area from the 7th thru 9th of May, part of my > annual working vacation. If anyone wants to show off their collections > of Big Iron - well I would't complain! Or if not, maybe just a pizza > dinner rag chew jam session... Definately go to the DigiBarn if you get a chance. Last time I was out there, I didn't have the time, but I went on my first trip to the CHM and got to meet Al Kossow and see the "invisible storage" in the back :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 20 16:47:57 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:47:57 -0300 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com><102201c78356$231bf790$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4628D20E.8050701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10e601c78396$3013b740$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I thought the 3278 was the most common. If memory serves, the 3274 is a > terminal controller. I think the 3276 is a direct-attached terminal > with a built-in terminal controller. You are right, memory is vanishing... :o( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 20 16:51:46 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:51:46 -0300 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? References: Message-ID: <10e701c78396$308d5410$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Actually, there is an X11 port of doom that runs on SGI boxes, so > yeah, I could probably run doom on that once I get hard drives and an > OS on it. I don't think it would be lawnmower man style (god, what an > awful movie). LM came out in 1992 and the "Reality Monster" came out > in 1999. I guess that doesn't really make this machine "vintage" so > much as "discontinued". Still, getting 4 racks of SGI iron for $666 > (the devil made me do it!) is a steal. Richard, talking about graphics, how are the graphics subsystem capabilities of these machines, compared with modern PCs with top-of-line graphic cards? This is something I always wanted to ask. I don't see a SGI near me for some 15 years, these are **impossible** to be found in the junk market and local e-bay (which is not called ebay, but www.mercadolivre.com.br which says is associated to ebay) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 20 17:04:51 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:04:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <262605.40237.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Wow, you have an awful lot of computers. Admittedly i skimmed through the listing and then went back through much slower... after all you had taken the time to list and type them all out. So what's wrong with your Amiga 600? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tony Duell wrote: > *>> snip <<* Anyway, here's a reasonably-complete list of my computer collection. *>> snip <<* CBM Amiga 600 (faulty?) *>> snip <<* -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 20 17:08:40 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:08:40 -0700 Subject: ISO Syquest SQ306 (on eBay) / Syquest 100 Message-ID: <462939E8.2050702@bitsavers.org> > Can't seem to find a picture of the SQ306 drive so I can identify one if I > ever come across them.. took a while to find a picture from Nov, 82 Byte http://bitsavers.org/pdf/syquest/SQ306.jpg From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 20 17:34:08 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 20, 2007 09:46:33 PM Message-ID: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> Tony wrote: > If this is true, and it certainly seems to be, then the 'cure' for no > real 80bit micro discussiosn is to start some. > > However, I've noticed that some 8-bit home computer threads don't seem to > go anywhere. A couple of weeks back somebody posted about that I think that it is safe to say that while the list is for "Classic Computers", it has a *VERY* strong DEC orientation. There is also a very large number of messages on "generic" hardware issues and "generic" data archival issues. Perhaps part of the problem is that there are better places to go for things such as C64's, Apple ]['s, Amiga's and the like. I honestly don't know. I do know that I typically do not ask VMS questions here, rather I go to comp.os.vms. I do know that in my case I have almost no room at home for Classic Computer stuff, as a result the classic systems that I have at home right now that aren't hopelessy buried are a couple VAXen, a pair of PDP-11's, and a C-64. I also have almost no free time, so the main system that sees *any* use is the VAXstation 4000/vlc (it is my DECnet Area Router). Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 17:40:06 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:40:06 -0400 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <10e601c78396$3013b740$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> <102201c78356$231bf790$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4628D20E.8050701@gmail.com> <10e601c78396$3013b740$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: > > I thought the 3278 was the most common. If memory serves, the 3274 is a > > terminal controller. I think the 3276 is a direct-attached terminal > > with a built-in terminal controller. > > You are right, memory is vanishing... :o( The 3278 series always reminded me of mushrooms. Anyway, they are getting quite scarce, so if you find one, please do not trash it. Some are modified versions used as consoles for the mainframe line. The hardest one to get is the squished 3278 - the tube has a 2:1 aspect ratio, only 12 lines of text yet all the columns, and was used as a S/3 console. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 17:40:06 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:40:06 -0400 Subject: Old IBM mainframe crt/monitors In-Reply-To: <10e601c78396$3013b740$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <6d6501090704192306o57a02e4dtdcb650aae14df906@mail.gmail.com> <102201c78356$231bf790$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4628D20E.8050701@gmail.com> <10e601c78396$3013b740$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: > > I thought the 3278 was the most common. If memory serves, the 3274 is a > > terminal controller. I think the 3276 is a direct-attached terminal > > with a built-in terminal controller. > > You are right, memory is vanishing... :o( The 3278 series always reminded me of mushrooms. Anyway, they are getting quite scarce, so if you find one, please do not trash it. Some are modified versions used as consoles for the mainframe line. The hardest one to get is the squished 3278 - the tube has a 2:1 aspect ratio, only 12 lines of text yet all the columns, and was used as a S/3 console. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 20 17:48:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:48:46 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:51:46 -0300. <10e701c78396$308d5410$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <10e701c78396$308d5410$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > Richard, talking about graphics, how are the graphics subsystem > capabilities of these machines, compared with modern PCs with top-of-line > graphic cards? Like most things in graphics, "it depends" ;-). PCs probably can't even come close to the RealityMonster machine. There is also the bandwidth of the I/O system and busses to consider when comparing to a PC. Once you get the whole scene loaded into a PC card it can scream, but if the scene has to be paged in to the 3D card on a PC, then you're at the mercy of your system bus, clock rate and disk rates. There are also graphics features that these workstations have that aren't well supported on PCs until very recently. Things like volume rendering. Then there's the fact that the higher end SGI cards can do 12-bits per channel, for 48-bit RGB output, allowing for extremely high quality graphics rendering. The last time that I personally programmed an SGI box was 1997, so its been a while for me. However, SGI was largely driven by scientific visualization, simulation and the entertainment industry (read: Hollywood) while the PC market is driven by gaming. These are very different markets. In the PC market, its hard to get a hardware vendor interested in your requested feature if its not going to be used in games. Then again, the PC cards are becoming so programmable that nobody requests specific features anymore, they just request more bandwidth, more memory and more programmability. Most of the SGI hardware engineers ended up at NVidia, so its no surprise that the PC cards are displacing more and more SGI machines. The one big exception that I know of is Kurt Akeley, who is an SGI founded, and is now heading up the graphics research group for Microsoft in Beijing. SGI machines of this variety do seem to be increasingly rare. They don't show up on ebay much because they require freight shipping. I more often see parts for these machines showing up on ebay. They don't show up on dovebid much either -- these machines and an Onyx that I bought earlier are the first that have shown up on dovebid since I've been monitoring. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From david_comley at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 18:42:29 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! In-Reply-To: <0JGS0087BXJAUKZ1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <217060.48565.qm@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > You will likely have success finding a board or > another complete drive > (with stickies). Now that you know how to fix them > you may find an excess > of the drives results. ;) Well based on this thread I'm going to haul mine out and see if this fixes them. Great tip ! -Dave From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 19:05:53 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:05:53 +1000 Subject: TBBS for CP/M ? References: <217060.48565.qm@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023f01c783a8$d6108620$0100a8c0@pentium> Long shot - but does anyone have a copy of this floating around ? regs, Lance From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 19:38:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 17:38:29 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> References: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 20, 2007 09:46:33 PM, <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4628FA95.19534.2B33A5DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2007 at 15:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think that it is safe to say that while the list is for "Classic > Computers", it has a *VERY* strong DEC orientation. There is also a very > large number of messages on "generic" hardware issues and "generic" data > archival issues. Consider, the length of the timeline for each of the various models. 8-bit systems essentially had their heyday between 1975 and 1984. While there were systems manufactured outside of this 9 year period, that was pretty much it as far as revolutionary new product introductions. Most of what occurred after 1985 was attrition in the 8 bit ranks. Now consider DEC systems that are collected by people on this list. The PDP-8 dates from 1965; the last VAX was sold by Compaq sometime after 2000, if memory serves. That's what, 35 years? Does HP/Compaq still have an active support program for VAXen? It seems to me that they'd committed through 2010. In contrast, the x86 PC has been around for more than 25 years and is still going strong. So its potential for being a candidate for future vintage discussions is strong. Hang on to those ISA cards! I suspect that in another 10 years. the emphasis will have shifted away from DEC equipment and strongly toward classic Macs and early PCs. Time marches on and people forget or die off or lose interest. Collections are frequently dispersed or scrapped wholesale. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 20 19:44:33 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 17:44:33 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) Message-ID: <46295E71.6010705@bitsavers.org> > In contrast, the x86 PC has been around for more than 25 years and is > still going strong. So its potential for being a candidate for > future vintage discussions is strong. A lot of that sort of discussion seems to be going on over at the vintage computer forum, looking at the active threads http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?searchid=81558 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 20 20:30:07 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:30:07 -0700 Subject: SGI hinv... Message-ID: <200704201830.07835.lbickley@bickleywest.com> There was a comment regarding the SGI "hinv" (hardware inventory) command and other UNIX systems. I've attached inline a "hinv" of my Onyx2 system. As you can see, it gives both hardware information as well as serial and part numbers of all boards in the system. In addition, I've also provided a "gfxinfo" command - which inventories and describes the graphics hardware on the system. There are other "info" commands which describe other system options - but I figured this would be enough to get the idea... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- hinv -m IP31 Board: barcode MJT049 part 030-1523-001 rev C IP31PIMMR12KS Board: barcode MJS498 part 030-1423-002 rev H MODULEID Board: barcode K0010378 part rev IP31 Board: barcode LAM652 part 030-1523-001 rev C 4P1G5_MPLN Board: barcode DAW270 part 013-1839-001 rev E IP31PIMMR12KS Board: barcode LAT574 part 030-1423-002 rev G GE16-4 Board: barcode GMR170 part 030-1398-001 rev B DIVO Board: barcode DDE075 part 030-1046-002 rev H BASEIO Board: barcode GKN285 part 030-0734-002 rev N MIO Board: barcode GJJ660 part 030-0880-003 rev F 4 400 MHZ IP27 Processors CPU: MIPS R12000 Processor Chip Revision: 3.5 FPU: MIPS R12010 Floating Point Chip Revision: 3.5 Main memory size: 3072 Mbytes Instruction cache size: 32 Kbytes Data cache size: 32 Kbytes Secondary unified instruction/data cache size: 8 Mbytes Integral SCSI controller 0: Version QL1040B (rev. 2), single ended Disk drive: unit 1 on SCSI controller 0 Disk drive: unit 2 on SCSI controller 0 CDROM: unit 6 on SCSI controller 0 Integral SCSI controller 1: Version QL1040B (rev. 2), single ended IOC3 serial port: tty1 IOC3 serial port: tty2 IOC3 serial port: tty3 IOC3 serial port: tty4 IOC3 parallel port: plp1 Graphics board: InfiniteReality2E Integral Fast Ethernet: ef0, version 1, module 1, slot io1, pci 2 Iris Audio Processor: version RAD revision 7.0, number 1 Origin BASEIO board, module 1 slot 1: Revision 4 DIVO Video: controller 0 unit 0: Input, Output IOC3 external interrupts: 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ /usr/gfx/gfxinfo -v Graphics board 0 is "KONAL" graphics. Managed (":0.0") 1280x1024 Display has 8 channels 4 GEs (of 4), occmask = 0x0f 4MB external BEF ram, 32bit path 2 RM9 boards (of 2) 1/1/0/0 Texture Memory: 64MB/64MB/-/- Large pixel depth 32K cmap, 64K external gamma brd: f61806 3020c06/3020c06/-/- 51bf1002 ge: 0 14832057 24731057 14231057 rm0: 15032057 15431057 4631057 2/2/2/2 4d31057 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 4938057 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 rm1: 15032057 15431057 4631057 2/2/2/2 4d31057 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 4938057 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 dg: 05532057 5838057 1/1/1/1 5631057 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 GE: NIC #: 0000.002a.e7eb (family: 0b) Serial #: GMR170 Part #: 030-1398-001 KT: No NIC serial number available. RM0: NIC #: 0000.0025.9d10 (family: 0b) Serial #: HGM627 Part #: 030-1402-001 TM0: NIC #: 0000.002e.44a7 (family: 0b) Serial #: FDS892 Part #: 030-1053-001 RM1: NIC #: 0000.0025.9be5 (family: 0b) Serial #: DEM993 Part #: 030-1402-001 TM1: NIC #: 0000.001d.b564 (family: 0b) Serial #: DEM879 Part #: 030-1053-001 RM2: No NIC serial number available. TM2: No NIC serial number available. RM3: No NIC serial number available. TM3: No NIC serial number available. BP: No NIC serial number available. DG: NIC #: 0000.0021.1bed (family: 0b) Serial #: GPV767 Part #: 030-1087-001 DGOPT:No NIC serial number available. Input Sync: Voltage - Video Level; Source - Internal; Genlocked - False Channel 0: Origin = (0,0) Video Output: 1280 pixels, 1024 lines, 72.00Hz (1280x1024_72.vfo) Video Format Flags: (none) Sync Output(s): Composite sync on Green Composite TTL sync on Aux 0 Using Gamma Map 0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 21:02:37 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 19:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <4628FA95.19534.2B33A5DC@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 20, 7 05:38:29 pm" Message-ID: <200704210202.l3L22btE012126@floodgap.com> > > I think that it is safe to say that while the list is for "Classic > > Computers", it has a *VERY* strong DEC orientation. There is also a very > > large number of messages on "generic" hardware issues and "generic" data > > archival issues. > > Consider, the length of the timeline for each of the various models. > 8-bit systems essentially had their heyday between 1975 and 1984. > While there were systems manufactured outside of this 9 year period, > that was pretty much it as far as revolutionary new product > introductions. Most of what occurred after 1985 was attrition in the > 8 bit ranks. On the other hand, nearly everyone agrees that for the Commodore 8-bit computers, they (i.e. the 64 and 128) were still very strong sellers and commanded a large software base even as late as 1989. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is the business of little minds to shrink. -- Carl Sandburg ------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 21:32:57 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:32:57 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704210202.l3L22btE012126@floodgap.com> References: <4628FA95.19534.2B33A5DC@cclist.sydex.com> <200704210202.l3L22btE012126@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > On the other hand, nearly everyone agrees that for the Commodore 8-bit > computers, they (i.e. the 64 and 128) were still very strong sellers and > commanded a large software base even as late as 1989. That's debatable. When I went to (a fairly small) engineering school from 1988-91- probably a good sample of home computer nerdiness - there were no kids with C64s or C128s in the dorm rooms. Sure, their were some that used to have them, but most had moved on to other platforms. XTs and clones had the biggest share by far with well over 100 users, and maybe Amigas taking second place with roughly 15. There were five kids with Atari STs, three with 8 bit Ataris, two Macs, a Rainbow, a PC junior, an Interdata, but no 8 bit Commodores or Apples. I think that the C64 line took a fast nosedive in 1987 - never dying, but definitely not a strong seller. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 21:38:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 19:38:52 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704210202.l3L22btE012126@floodgap.com> References: <4628FA95.19534.2B33A5DC@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 20, 7 05:38:29 pm", <200704210202.l3L22btE012126@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <462916CC.26289.2BA1DB02@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2007 at 19:02, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > On the other hand, nearly everyone agrees that for the Commodore 8-bit > computers, they (i.e. the 64 and 128) were still very strong sellers and > commanded a large software base even as late as 1989. Yes, but the 128 was pretty much the end of the line and it was 1985. After the 128D, CBM concentrated on the Amiga; there was no C256, for example. End of the line. IIRC, the C64 was a much better seller than the 128. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 21:48:23 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 19:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Apr 20, 7 10:32:57 pm" Message-ID: <200704210248.l3L2mNgE012444@floodgap.com> > > On the other hand, nearly everyone agrees that for the Commodore 8-bit > > computers, they (i.e. the 64 and 128) were still very strong sellers and > > commanded a large software base even as late as 1989. > > That's debatable. > When I went to (a fairly small) engineering school from 1988-91- > probably a good sample of home computer nerdiness - there were no kids > with C64s or C128s in the dorm rooms. Sure, their were some that used > to have them, but most had moved on to other platforms. XTs and clones > had the biggest share by far with well over 100 users, and maybe > Amigas taking second place with roughly 15. There were five kids with > Atari STs, three with 8 bit Ataris, two Macs, a Rainbow, a PC junior, > an Interdata, but no 8 bit Commodores or Apples. > > I think that the C64 line took a fast nosedive in 1987 - never dying, > but definitely not a strong seller. I think the problem is your sample environment. The C64 still sold 80,000 units in 1989, building on the already huge extant userbase. (Reference: http://www.indwes.edu/Faculty/bcupp/Things/Commodore/Development.html) I would have been very surprised if an engineering school had lots of C64s in the dorm rooms in the late 1980s. Engineering was never its strong suit even when it was an even larger market force earlier because it just didn't have the display or computational chops. But it still was huge as a general-purpose home computer. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All science is either physics or stamp collecting. -- Ernest Rutherford ---- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 21:49:28 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 19:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462916CC.26289.2BA1DB02@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 20, 7 07:38:52 pm" Message-ID: <200704210249.l3L2nSRm013780@floodgap.com> > > On the other hand, nearly everyone agrees that for the Commodore 8-bit > > computers, they (i.e. the 64 and 128) were still very strong sellers and > > commanded a large software base even as late as 1989. > > Yes, but the 128 was pretty much the end of the line and it was 1985. ... when it was introduced. The 128 was not discontinued until 1989. > IIRC, the C64 was a much better seller than the 128. That is not in doubt. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 22:07:21 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:07:21 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704210248.l3L2mNgE012444@floodgap.com> References: <200704210248.l3L2mNgE012444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > I think the problem is your sample environment. I think my sample is good - back then home computers were mostly purchased by nerdy people who would likely go to an engineering school (or send their kid there). Home computers were far from being the ubiquitous piece of home electronics they are now. > The C64 still sold 80,000 > units in 1989, building on the already huge extant userbase. 80000 was a not much, even back then. Many of the cheap XT clone companies were likely doing those numbers or better. > Engineering was never its strong suit > even when it was an even larger market force earlier because it just didn't > have the display or computational chops. But it still was huge as a > general-purpose home computer. Back then, no engineering school I know of had students do much or any of the engineering on their home computers, so the power and display argument is flawed. It was still a traditional (mostly DEC) minicomputer or mainframe approach - we had a motley crew of machines, mostly VAX, probably similar to other engineering schools. The home computers were for writing term papers and reports, and screwing off, of course. Only at the very end were we allowed to write code on our PeeCees - and we were the first class to do so. -- Will From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 22:09:13 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:09:13 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: References: <4628FA95.19534.2B33A5DC@cclist.sydex.com> <200704210202.l3L22btE012126@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704202009t1f90ca4dm3a445dea1cf42282@mail.gmail.com> On 20/04/07, William Donzelli wrote: > When I went to (a fairly small) engineering school from 1988-91- > probably a good sample of home computer nerdiness - there were no kids > with C64s or C128s in the dorm rooms. Sure, their were some that used > to have them, but most had moved on to other platforms. XTs and clones > had the biggest share by far with well over 100 users, and maybe > Amigas taking second place with roughly 15. There were five kids with > Atari STs, three with 8 bit Ataris, two Macs, a Rainbow, a PC junior, > an Interdata, but no 8 bit Commodores or Apples. > > I think that the C64 line took a fast nosedive in 1987 - never dying, > but definitely not a strong seller. This may be a bit of a US-centric viewpoint; I think in europe the 8-bit commodores were (slightly) more long-lived. But I agree that Commodore dropped them pretty quickly in favor of the Amiga line and rightfully so. I think they had effectively saturated the market - since C64's were so cheap (being sold in low-end supermakets: Aldi!) who could compete (even C= against itself) by selling yet another 8-bitter that would not offer up much more perfomance? Perhaps we see a similar event right now with Sonys PS2 (C64) vs. PS3 (C128 or Amiga... cast the Xbox as the PCs and Wii as ??? Macs, perhaps? Or the other way around) Waaay of on a tangent here. sorry. Joe. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 22:11:04 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 20:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704210248.l3L2mNgE012444@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Apr 20, 7 07:48:23 pm" Message-ID: <200704210311.l3L3B4GU011066@floodgap.com> > > I think that the C64 line took a fast nosedive in 1987 - never dying, > > but definitely not a strong seller. > > I think the problem is your sample environment. The C64 still sold 80,000 > units in 1989, building on the already huge extant userbase. (Reference: > http://www.indwes.edu/Faculty/bcupp/Things/Commodore/Development.html) Whoops, that was supposed to be "Christmas" 1989. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine ------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 20 22:45:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 20:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Apr 20, 7 11:07:21 pm" Message-ID: <200704210345.l3L3jgcS011042@floodgap.com> > > I think the problem is your sample environment. > > I think my sample is good - back then home computers were mostly > purchased by nerdy people who would likely go to an engineering school > (or send their kid there). Home computers were far from being the > ubiquitous piece of home electronics they are now. But they would have brought something they could use. Few people by that time would have been using a 64 in that capacity with, as you say, other more capable computers being equally available. So, again, I think your sample environment is ill-chosen. Lest you say that they weren't using it in that capacity, see below. > > The C64 still sold 80,000 > > units in 1989, building on the already huge extant userbase. > > 80000 was a not much, even back then. Many of the cheap XT clone > companies were likely doing those numbers or better. See my other message. That was supposed to be *Christmas* 1989. Here's another nice reference: http://www.pegasus3d.com/total_share.html Estimated sales for 1989 by their count was one to 1.5 million. Even by 1990, directly off the Commodore annual reports, they were still moving at least 700,000 units. His estimate for clones is somewhere around 17 million that year sold (1989), with C64s thus representing somewhere around 6% of sales in the total market that year. That's more than the Macs were doing, and fairly significant for a seven-year old system that four years prior owned a third of the market in sales that year alone. There were an enormous number still out there. > > Engineering was never its strong suit > > even when it was an even larger market force earlier because it just didn't > > have the display or computational chops. But it still was huge as a > > general-purpose home computer. > > Back then, no engineering school I know of had students do much or any > of the engineering on their home computers, so the power and display > argument is flawed. I stand by my point as stated. Whether or not the school would have accepted assignments done on the home system -- and bluntly, you just can't make a blanket statement like that that NO school did -- you can't also reasonably expect people would NOT have used them for that purpose, even if in a limited sense. And if the school did allow them to use their personal systems even only partially for their assignments, a possibility you state above, then the power/display argument isn't flawed because the technical limitations would have been rapidly apparent. But even if it weren't true, it doesn't change the fact that the installed base was still gargantuan. Even considering that most unit sales were to people who moved on to something bigger, and even granting for argument that by 1989 a lot of that conversion would have occurred, a small percentage of, say, 12 or 13 million units out of the eventual sales of 17+ is still a very large number. Companies like EA and Origin were still making ports of their games for the 64 that late (see their contemporary ads; EA did so until 1990). That doesn't sound like something a company that wants a profitable return would do unless they believed the market was big enough to make it worth it. Considering the 64 was Commodore's financial anchor almost until the day the company self-destructed, I don't think counting it out as dying in 1989 is supported by any metric. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't walk a mile in their shoes. They smell funny. ---------------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 20 22:53:41 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 04:53:41 +0100 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) References: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46273647.10230.244CDA3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> > It wasn't the only system. I believe that the VIsual Commuter >could also be expanded past 640K in the base area--and it was >almost PC-compatible. ISTR that a lot (if not all) of the early 8086/88 machines, which weren't IBM clones, could be expanded well past 640K. In fact, the more I think about it, ISTR that the PC was unusual in being limited to 640K.... I definitely recall having 896K in one of my Sirii and my Apricot Xi. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 20 23:38:59 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 05:38:59 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> I'm not even going to attempt to list my collection, I've got so much stuff piled up that I can't remember half of what's there. However, the more UNUSUAL machines I have are a CBM "P-500", a CBM "8296Dg" (or some similar name - I can't get at it right now - an 8296 with internal disc drives and some sort of hi-res graphics) and an "Interak 1". The Interak is interesting since it was a kit built, Z-80 based system produced by a small electronics firm here in the UK. It consisted of a simple backplane and various CPU, RAM, I/O cards....and can run CP/M! :-) Talking of CP/M, I used to have the following systems which ran it: Visual 1050 BBC Micro + Torch Z80 disc pack + CP/N co-pro (swapped it for the Interak!) DEC Rainbow PDP-11/23 + Z80-CP/M co-processor card DECMate III + Z80 co-processor (in fact I probably still have a couple) DECMate II + Z80.... Transam Tuscan CBM 128D Amstrad CPC-6128(?) Sharp MZ-80B ICL "????" - Big orange, custom made, ICL "luggable" CP/M box. Not entirely unlike an "Osborne 1". And probably many more.... ;-) BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" disc pack for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; rather it had a basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? TTFN - Pete. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Apr 21 00:10:38 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:10:38 -0700 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) Message-ID: Sun has (on the Ultras) prtdiag from Solaris, can't recall what IBM has under AIX but it isn't as instructive. Linux has stuff in /proc that lists everything. BTW the Onyx2/Origin2(something) sleds are the same as the Octane sleds. From trag at io.com Sat Apr 21 01:46:53 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:46:53 -0500 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <200704202201.l3KM0wTP051136@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704202201.l3KM0wTP051136@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:12:10 -0400 >From: Robert Borsuk >On Apr 20, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I hope you did not throw away anything too rare (if you have more >> to junk >> let me know). The cards I listed were just the DSP cards I have, >> probably >> have 50+ Nubus cards by now. >> >> The 8*24GC is a nice card for an 030 (I don't have one yet). Has 2 >> slots for >> Gworld RAM (it uses IIfx RAM, wish I could find GWORLD for my >> Thunder/24 >> cards). I hear the AMD GPU on the GC gets toasty. >> >> TZ >Teo, > A bunch of storm cards, Xceed video cards, etc. I think I might >have kept one or two of each. I would have to see. >Are you in the states? I have a box on documentation that I've been >looking for a home. >I wanted someone who might have an interest in Nubus cards, like >yourself. If you are, send me your address off list. > >Rob Rob, Amongst the SE/30 collection crowd there is near fanatical interest in the old Xceed Color 30, Color 30HR, and MacroColor 30 -- the cards which install in an SE/30 and are compatible with the Grayscale board. I've been slowly working my way around to designing a new card to do the same function. FPGAs are fast and affordable and SRAM or fast SDRAM is also affordable in the quantities needed. If any of your documentation is related to hardware design as opposed to user guides and user manuals I would be very grateful if I could get a look at it. One specific thing I've been wondering about is how one implements quickdraw acceleration. Was there an Apple guide to doing this in some of the developer materials, or was it something which each company worked out on their own -- deciding which Quickdraw calls to trap and send to the video card? Jeff Walther From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 01:54:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 02:54:49 -0400 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4629B539.1060908@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > Sun has (on the Ultras) prtdiag from Solaris, can't recall what IBM has > under AIX but it isn't as instructive. Linux has stuff in /proc that > lists everything. > > BTW the Onyx2/Origin2(something) sleds are the same as the Octane sleds. IBM's works fine. lscfg and lsdev. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 20 17:11:24 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:11:24 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! Message-ID: <0JGT006NTHM2X7I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! > From: Mr Ian Primus > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >--- Andy Piercy wrote: > >> Allison, >> >> Well hats off to you, it worked! >> >> I have now fixed the faulty internals of the two >> faulty Micropolis hard >> drives by teasing out the black gooey mass that use >> to be the head park >> rebound bumper / end stops for each drive. >> >> They had turned into a black sticky mush and as you >> correctly identified >> were holding the heads from un-parking. > >When removing this bumper, are you replacing it with >something (say, a stick-on rubber foot) or simply >removing it entirely? Outright removal is the easiest. You hear a clunk when the head returns but I've nver had any that showed adverse side effects from that. Allison From COMPORT at aol.com Fri Apr 20 17:18:17 2007 From: COMPORT at aol.com (COMPORT at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:18:17 EDT Subject: CADO computers Message-ID: I HAVE A BUNCH OF CADO COMPUTERS. IF YOU WANT THEM, EMAIL BRAD STONE AT _COMPORT at AOL.COM_ (mailto:COMPORT at AOL.COM) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 20 18:48:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 19:48:32 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) Message-ID: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:34:08 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Tony wrote: >> If this is true, and it certainly seems to be, then the 'cure' for no >> real 80bit micro discussiosn is to start some. >> >> However, I've noticed that some 8-bit home computer threads don't seem to >> go anywhere. A couple of weeks back somebody posted about that > >I think that it is safe to say that while the list is for "Classic >Computers", it has a *VERY* strong DEC orientation. There is also a very >large number of messages on "generic" hardware issues and "generic" data >archival issues. I'm stong DEC person but 75% of my collection is 8bitters. I have a lot of experience with 8bitters in the single chip and multichip realm. But 8bitters is a large space, runs the gamut from intel/zilog to 1802. >Perhaps part of the problem is that there are better places to go for >things such as C64's, Apple ]['s, Amiga's and the like. I honestly don't >know. I do know that I typically do not ask VMS questions here, rather I go >to comp.os.vms. there is that also the Commies are a special breed as are the Apple]['s and a generic forum would miss the sublties that are implementation specific. >I do know that in my case I have almost no room at home for Classic Computer >stuff, as a result the classic systems that I have at home right now that >aren't hopelessy buried are a couple VAXen, a pair of PDP-11's, and a C-64. >I also have almost no free time, so the main system that sees *any* use is >the VAXstation 4000/vlc (it is my DECnet Area Router). ;) I've pretty much cubed out here too. However I have them arranged so a large number of them are accessable and even operable. Nothing like a 9way VMS LAVC to perk up a day. Allison From bear at typewritten.org Sat Apr 21 03:15:47 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:15:47 -0700 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> On Apr 20, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > Sun has (on the Ultras) prtdiag from Solaris, can't recall what IBM > has under AIX but it isn't as instructive. Linux has stuff in /proc > that lists everything. You might think AIX is "less instructive" if you only know lsdev. Try 'lscfg -vp' and then tell me what you think. (@; There's also lsattr and lsconf. It just depends on what you want to know. I find Linux's interface (text files in /proc and /sys) to be horrific. hinv on SGI reports more or less detail depending on your platform. For example, it returns a whole lot less data on an Indy than it does on your Onyx2, even taking into consideration that there is a whole lot less hardware in an Indy. HP-UX is the worst, though. At least there's graphinfo. ok bear From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Apr 21 05:32:31 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:32:31 +0100 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> References: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <4629E83F.9080404@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/04/2007 09:15, r.stricklin wrote: > On Apr 20, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > >> Sun has (on the Ultras) prtdiag from Solaris, can't recall what IBM >> has under AIX but it isn't as instructive. Linux has stuff in /proc >> that lists everything. > > You might think AIX is "less instructive" if you only know lsdev. Try > 'lscfg -vp' and then tell me what you think. (@; > > There's also lsattr and lsconf. It just depends on what you want to know. > > I find Linux's interface (text files in /proc and /sys) to be horrific. > > hinv on SGI reports more or less detail depending on your platform. For > example, it returns a whole lot less data on an Indy than it does on > your Onyx2, even taking into consideration that there is a whole lot > less hardware in an Indy. > > HP-UX is the worst, though. At least there's graphinfo. There's one tool that is fairly comprehensive and available for all the above: sysinfo. One of its merits is that it saves having to learn a bunch of different commands on different systems. It used to be free, and you could download the sourcecode and compile it yourself. For current versions, alas, there's a license fee, unless you are an educational establishment (free license if your domain name ends in .edu, .ac.uk, and several others), though some customers can still get the source code. I have the source for an old version (3.4 final), which says: "Sysinfo is a program which shows various pieces of information about the hardware and operating system software configuration of the host it's run on. The original version was written to simply determine the model name of a system for use in /etc/motd. It also supported a few other pieces of information that were simple to obtain, but the method used to obtain the information on various different OS's varied. The current version shows many different "general" bits of system information as well as fairly detailed information about system hardware devices (disk drives, frame buffers, tape drives, etc.), kernel variables, and system configuration information. A lot of the information Sysinfo displays is difficult, if not impossible, to determine by normal OS commands and/or files after boot time on many OS's. [...] Supported platforms Sun SPARC / (various versions of SunOS) x86 / SunOS IBM RS6000 / AIX SGI IRIX HP9000 / HP-UX Convex SPP / SPP-UX" It's from a company called MagniComp Systems if you want to look it up on the Internet. Or contact me off-list if you want a copy of the tar file for version 3.4-final -- the copyright file says it's freely distributable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Apr 21 05:50:25 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:50:25 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4629EC71.7020307@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/04/2007 05:38, Ensor wrote: > Talking of CP/M, I used to have the following systems which ran it: > > BBC Micro + Torch Z80 disc pack + CP/N co-pro Although CPN isn't real CP/M, its an almost-compatible look-alike. A Torch Z80 won't run real CP/M, though it will run a modest subset of CP/M applications. > PDP-11/23 + Z80-CP/M co-processor card That's unusual too. Who made the Z80 card? > Transam Tuscan Another unusual one. Does it work? I know a couple of people who started to build a Tuscan, but they never got one to work properly. Those machines looked very attractive but had a bad reputation for reliability and poor board design. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 21 07:07:38 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:07:38 -0300 Subject: Quick survey on equipment References: <262605.40237.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c201c7840d$e3943250$f0fea8c0@alpha> > So what's wrong with your Amiga 600? Let me guess: Dried capacitors, broken keyboard film or both? :o) From rcini at optonline.net Sat Apr 21 07:18:37 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:18:37 -0400 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: The address space of the 8088 was 1mb (20-bits) so more than 640k was possible although a lot of the space between 640k and 1024k on the PC was allocated for expansion card use and the system BIOS. On 4/20/07 11:53 PM, "Ensor" wrote: > >> It wasn't the only system. I believe that the VIsual Commuter >> could also be expanded past 640K in the base area--and it was >> almost PC-compatible. > > ISTR that a lot (if not all) of the early 8086/88 machines, which weren't > IBM clones, could be expanded well past 640K. > > In fact, the more I think about it, ISTR that the PC was unusual in being > limited to 640K.... > > I definitely recall having 896K in one of my Sirii and my Apricot Xi. > > > TTFN - Pete. > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 08:40:21 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:40:21 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704210345.l3L3jgcS011042@floodgap.com> References: <200704210345.l3L3jgcS011042@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > But they would have brought something they could use. Few people by that > time would have been using a 64 in that capacity with, as you say, other > more capable computers being equally available. So, again, I think your > sample environment is ill-chosen. Were the bulk of non-engineering students - call them the typical home computer folks - doing more that word processing and playing games? There was no web, only a relative handful of people used them for music, nobody actually ever stored recipes on them, and most home businesses were on PeeCees. > Estimated sales for 1989 by their count was one to 1.5 million. Even by > 1990, directly off the Commodore annual reports, they were still moving > at least 700,000 units. Those numbers are much better, however, at that point they may have been driven by low prices, perhaps using up old stock. Just like the auto market, so the figures may not be as rosy as they appear. > I stand by my point as stated. Whether or not the school would have accepted > assignments done on the home system -- and bluntly, you just can't make a > blanket statement like that that NO school did -- you can't also reasonably > expect people would NOT have used them for that purpose, even if in a limited > sense. Let me say that "almost no school did" then. I am basing my stance on what I see, from the piles of people I knew that went thru engineering school at roughly the same time. We all pretty much had the same experience. By the mid-1990s, however, the landscape changed from the mix that I saw to PeeCee/Unix blend. > And if the school did allow them to use their personal systems even only > partially for their assignments, a possibility you state above, then the > power/display argument isn't flawed because the technical limitations would > have been rapidly apparent. I still do not see this power and display limitation argument. This was undergrad engineering school - nothing special. Certainly a C64 had the display power to draw all sorts of simple graphs like we had to. And other that some SPICE and SILOS, none of the stuff was super computationally intense. No home computer then had the horsepower for these simulation languages (PCSPICE was horrid). > But even if it weren't true, it doesn't change the fact that the installed > base was still gargantuan. I do not argue this. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 21 08:44:53 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 06:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at "Apr 21, 7 01:15:47 am" Message-ID: <200704211344.l3LDirQX013212@floodgap.com> > > Sun has (on the Ultras) prtdiag from Solaris, can't recall what IBM > > has under AIX but it isn't as instructive. Linux has stuff in /proc > > that lists everything. > > You might think AIX is "less instructive" if you only know lsdev. Try > 'lscfg -vp' and then tell me what you think. (@; My AIX 4.1 machines don't like -p -- I don't think that was added until 4.3. However, I forgot about lscfg. That *is* a very nice command. I use lsattr a lot if I'm remote and don't know the state of the keylock, for example. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- High explosives are applicable where truth and logic fail. ----------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 21 09:54:12 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Apr 21, 7 09:40:21 am" Message-ID: <200704211454.l3LEsCOH013866@floodgap.com> > > But they would have brought something they could use. Few people by that > > time would have been using a 64 in that capacity with, as you say, other > > more capable computers being equally available. So, again, I think your > > sample environment is ill-chosen. > > Were the bulk of non-engineering students - call them the typical home > computer folks - doing more that word processing and playing games? > There was no web, only a relative handful of people used them for > music, nobody actually ever stored recipes on them, and most home > businesses were on PeeCees. I've some some statistics for that too. If you look at the best selling packages at the time, most of them were indeed simple word processors (and some office applications) and playing games. I went through my magazine archive; I couldn't find a comparative sales graph in my 1990 issues for 1989 but I did find one in COMPUTE! 6/89 for 1988. Around $250 million in software sales are listed for recreation, $100 million for home general, and another $120 or so for education. That's compared with a bit over $200 million in PC sales (summed up as "MS-DOS") and about $70 million on Commodore sales, although this was not split into Amiga and 8-bit. In 3/90, COMPUTE! had a list of the best selling titles in North America for 12/89 in home general, home entertainment and home learning (I'm concentrating on home because I do not dispute the point that few businesses were using the 64 by that time). In home productivity, two of ten had C64 ports; in home education, five of ten; in home entertainment, six of ten. These titles included Print Shop, Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing, Where in the {World,USA} is Carmen Sandiego?, Battle Chess, John Madden Football, Tetris and SimCity. So, yes, the bulk of non-engineering students were doing exactly that and a C64 would have filled the bill. But I think it's disingenuous to say that an engineering student, someone with (I hope?) some technical skill and specific knowledge, would have also used the same thing off at college. That would have been a logical time to jump ship and buy a new computer if they hadn't by then already. I think it's also unreasonable to say that someone with enough understanding of the technology like an engineering undergrad would not have grasped the fact that a seven-year-old computer (by that time) with no clones probably is not the wave of the future. > > Estimated sales for 1989 by their count was one to 1.5 million. Even by > > 1990, directly off the Commodore annual reports, they were still moving > > at least 700,000 units. > > Those numbers are much better, however, at that point they may have > been driven by low prices, perhaps using up old stock. Just like the > auto market, so the figures may not be as rosy as they appear. Let's say that's true (the low prices definitely were, but not the old stock argument in 1989, because the 64C was still being manufactured and Max Toy and Nigel Shepherd both said as much; but I'll play along and say that's true) -- so what? A sale is a sale. The same could be said about any throwaway low end system of any nature. We're not arguing about the staying power of the system, the only reasonable negative consequence of a large low-cost market dump, because the 64 eventually ceased to be in 1992 and so I am certainly not disputing that. The point I'm making is that the 64 was still a major market force at that time because it was out there, no matter how it did it or the reasons why. Furthermore, if low prices were the *only* criterion that an engineering student was using to buy his or her system at that time, I can't say you have a very high opinion of your peers. ;) And going off to school was a prime time to be looking at new systems. > > And if the school did allow them to use their personal systems even only > > partially for their assignments, a possibility you state above, then the > > power/display argument isn't flawed because the technical limitations would > > have been rapidly apparent. > > I still do not see this power and display limitation argument. This > was undergrad engineering school - nothing special. Certainly a C64 > had the display power to draw all sorts of simple graphs like we had > to. And other that some SPICE and SILOS, none of the stuff was super > computationally intense. No home computer then had the horsepower for > these simulation languages (PCSPICE was horrid). But the 64 didn't even have -that- much. There was a simple circuit design application I remember playing with but it did minimal simulation if any, and I don't remember any others. The 64 was already by comparison several times slower than most commodity PCs (and worse against the 286), and was capped at 64K when most PC systems were being sold with 512K or more. REUs could not be used as RAM in the same way that a PC's 640K could, and few applications supported them. The 64 also lacked a display that would have qualified as high-resolution by prevailing standards, and while the 128 did have one (80 columns, and 640x400 with 64K VRAM), I'm not arguing that the 128 was any more than a modest market success at most. Yes, the 64 would have been more than up to the task of spreadsheets and uncomplicated graphs, but here I also repeat the argument that you and your peers would have been *exactly* the people to have determined it had few prospects for the future and jumped ship earlier. That trend was slowly becoming obvious to new buyers even then. However, in the home market where inertia and low cost remain king and the 64 was still useful for most popular home software, the situation would have been completely different. The goals of each population were obviously highly different. I find it ironic that I'm a big Commodore enthusiast, and yet I'm making the "underpowered" argument! > > But even if it weren't true, it doesn't change the fact that the installed > > base was still gargantuan. > > I do not argue this. Fair enough. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Use [Microsoft] IE and Passport and you can browse like it's 1984. -- /. --- From andy.piercy at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 10:03:57 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:03:57 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 ESDI hard drive "sticky bumpers" Fixed! In-Reply-To: <751166.9193.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <751166.9193.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just removing it completly, Please asl Allison for mmore details, I just folloed her detailed instructiona. Ta., A. On 20/04/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > --- Andy Piercy wrote: > > > Allison, > > > > Well hats off to you, it worked! > > > > I have now fixed the faulty internals of the two > > faulty Micropolis hard > > drives by teasing out the black gooey mass that use > > to be the head park > > rebound bumper / end stops for each drive. > > > > They had turned into a black sticky mush and as you > > correctly identified > > were holding the heads from un-parking. > > When removing this bumper, are you replacing it with > something (say, a stick-on rubber foot) or simply > removing it entirely? > > -Ian > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 21 10:17:39 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:17:39 -0500 Subject: Cleaning of Equipment Message-ID: <008701c78428$39a52130$1c406b43@66067007> This past weekend I was given a IBM paper tape punch, that was and still is pretty dirty. It has what looks like animal waste on it and other strange stuff. What's the best way to clean this without removing any of the paint or labels? It has the gray base and stainless steel arm on top. Thanks for any help. John From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 10:41:53 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:41:53 +0100 Subject: Analog character generation for CRT's and American Used Computer/DEC Pr0n In-Reply-To: <461113520200003700001742@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <461113520200003700001742@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: On 4/2/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I think last month someone here asked for a link to > an article they had seen where X-Y waveforms > were generated for CRT character generation. > > I believe the link they want is this: > > http://www.nixiebunny.com/crtgen/crtgen.html It was me that asked. Lee Davison already sent the link, but thanks again :) The documents are printed out and sat on my desk waiting for me to get a bit of time to have a go at building one of these. Ed. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 21 10:52:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:52:52 -0600 Subject: CADO computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:18:17 -0400. Message-ID: In article , COMPORT at aol.com writes: > I HAVE A BUNCH OF CADO COMPUTERS. Is this a brand, a model, or what? What kind of computer is it? I searched old-computers.com for it and came up empty and I've never heard of it before. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 11:00:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:00:55 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <8169F84E-8F1D-49CC-8EAB-F7657518285C@neurotica.com> On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:38 AM, Ensor wrote: > BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" > disc pack for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; > rather it had a basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be remapped...is this correct? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 11:09:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:09:42 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4629D4D6.8445.2E882E2D@cclist.sydex.com> I suppose my view is colored by my professional experience when I talk about the demise of the 8 bit systems. I'm not a game player and most of my applications exposure has been in areas such as database, spreadsheet, word processing, and business apps (AP, AR, GL, Payroll, Inventory, etc.). Although I've seen Apple ]['s functioning in this capacity as well as various x80 systems, I've never seen a business using a C64 or C128 to do their office "bread and butter" work. Games and educational software simply don't hold much of a place in my universe (I have a fair collection of them from the old SIMCGA days; but they never interested me). So, in my world, by 1985, people were leaving the 8-bitters behind in droves and there were plenty of people to encourage them. Were a company to have introduced a new 8 bit business system in early 1986, they probably wouldn't have made it to 1987. Heaven knows, there were even plenty of "we're 8088/8086 but we're not PC-compatible" casualties during this time. On the other hand, an embedded specialist would probably tell me that 8-bit is alive and well and it's the 16-bit MPUs that are dying a slow death, being displaced by the 32-bit processors such as the ARM family. I guess it depends on your perspective. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 21 11:32:42 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:32:42 -0400 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> References: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200704211232.42787.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 21 April 2007 04:15, r.stricklin wrote: > On Apr 20, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Sun has (on the Ultras) prtdiag from Solaris, can't recall what IBM > > has under AIX but it isn't as instructive. Linux has stuff in /proc > > that lists everything. > > You might think AIX is "less instructive" if you only know lsdev. Try > 'lscfg -vp' and then tell me what you think. (@; > > There's also lsattr and lsconf. It just depends on what you want to > know. > > I find Linux's interface (text files in /proc and /sys) to be > horrific. Try "hwinfo" under Linux. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 21 11:34:04 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:34:04 -0400 Subject: CADO computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704211234.04210.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 21 April 2007 11:52, Richard wrote: > In article , > > COMPORT at aol.com writes: > > I HAVE A BUNCH OF CADO COMPUTERS. > > Is this a brand, a model, or what? What kind of computer is it? > > I searched old-computers.com for it and came up empty and I've never > heard of it before. He was probably responding to this message on cctalk just over a year ago: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2006-February/214074.html I'm sure that he probably didn't realize he was replying to a mailing list, and not the actual person. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 21 11:57:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:57:04 -0600 Subject: CADO computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:34:04 -0400. <200704211234.04210.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200704211234.04210.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Saturday 21 April 2007 11:52, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > > > COMPORT at aol.com writes: > > > I HAVE A BUNCH OF CADO COMPUTERS. > > > > Is this a brand, a model, or what? What kind of computer is it? > > > > I searched old-computers.com for it and came up empty and I've never > > heard of it before. > > He was probably responding to this message on cctalk just over a year > ago: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2006-February/214074.html OK, one guy looking for it and one guy has it, but still the question remains what is it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 12:04:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:04:10 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704211454.l3LEsCOH013866@floodgap.com> References: <200704211454.l3LEsCOH013866@floodgap.com> Message-ID: One last comment - I really need to get back to work. My roadtrip clock is approaching midnight. > That's compared with a bit over $200 million in > PC sales (summed up as "MS-DOS") and about $70 million on Commodore sales, > although this was not split into Amiga and 8-bit. This tells nothing, as it does not separate the two lines. > So, yes, the bulk of non-engineering students were doing exactly that and a > C64 would have filled the bill. But I think it's disingenuous to say that an > engineering student, someone with (I hope?) some technical skill and specific > knowledge, would have also used the same thing off at college. That would have > been a logical time to jump ship and buy a new computer if they hadn't by then > already. What I saw was the jumping of ships occurred while in the first or second year of school. nearly all went PeeCee (other than the PCjr, I do not think there was a single piece of real IBM hardware in the dorms). > Let's say that's true (the low prices definitely were, but not the old stock > argument in 1989, because the 64C was still being manufactured and Max Toy > and Nigel Shepherd both said as much; but I'll play along and say that's true) > -- so what? A sale is a sale. A sale in not always a sale. Often a sale is a way to cut losses. With the 64C, I bet there was just enough momentum to keep it going. but I doubt it made Commodore a high profit margin. > The point I'm making is that the 64 was still a major > market force at that time because it was out there, no matter how it did it > or the reasons why. This is my point - I do not consider it a major force. What was the share? Six percent and falling? How many of those sales could be considered "legacy"? About half the C64 kids I knew in high school ended up buying two C64s, as the first broke down (not counting the infamous power bricks). I think my friend Bob had to buy three of them. Those with Ataris and Apples almost never had to replace their machines. > Furthermore, if low prices were the *only* criterion that an engineering > student was using to buy his or her system at that time, I can't say you have > a very high opinion of your peers. ;) And going off to school was a prime > time to be looking at new systems. It seems this did not happen - as I stated above, during the first and second year, the new machines started to arrive. Basically, it turned into "my 286 is faster than yours". > The 64 was already by comparison several > times slower than most commodity PCs (and worse against the 286), and was > capped at 64K when most PC systems were being sold with 512K or more. Other than the big projects (SPICE, SILOS, OS class - very cleverly done on the VAX), none of the projects would have strained a C64. OK, so doing some sort of algorithm test might take a minute of CPU time rather than 15 seconds. Not a big deal. > The 64 also lacked a display that would have > qualified as high-resolution by prevailing standards, It was certainly enough to display the ideas presented, like control system behavior, physics experiments, etc.. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 12:06:37 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:06:37 -0400 Subject: Show your stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Definately go to the DigiBarn if you get a chance. I want to see Big Iron, not paperweights. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 12:37:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:37:33 -0500 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <200704211232.42787.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> <200704211232.42787.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 4/21/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Try "hwinfo" under Linux. Is that an add-on? I don't seem to see it on my RedHat boxes. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 21 12:50:46 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Apr 21, 7 01:04:10 pm" Message-ID: <200704211750.l3LHok7V012112@floodgap.com> > One last comment - I really need to get back to work. My roadtrip > clock is approaching midnight. So stop replying. I'm right, just admit it. ;-) > > That's compared with a bit over $200 million in > > PC sales (summed up as "MS-DOS") and about $70 million on Commodore sales, > > although this was not split into Amiga and 8-bit. > > This tells nothing, as it does not separate the two lines. I already did that in the other post. This is just as a point of magnitude comparison since the software statistics are unfortunately in gross dollars, not in unit sales (which would be handier). > > -- so what? A sale is a sale. > > A sale in not always a sale. Often a sale is a way to cut losses. With > the 64C, I bet there was just enough momentum to keep it going. but I > doubt it made Commodore a high profit margin. I'm not sure what the point of saying this is. Okay, let's go ahead and say for argument that Commodore was both doing this to cut losses, and that they made a poor profit margin (I'm not going to side one way or another). The units were still being sold and the effect on the installed base is the same. Unless you have a suggestion about some other related effect, the units still got in the hands of buyers. So what does it prove if they were at fire-sale rates? > > The point I'm making is that the 64 was still a major > > market force at that time because it was out there, no matter how it did it > > or the reasons why. > > This is my point - I do not consider it a major force. What was the > share? Six percent and falling? How many of those sales could be > considered "legacy"? About half the C64 kids I knew in high school > ended up buying two C64s, as the first broke down (not counting the > infamous power bricks). I think my friend Bob had to buy three of > them. Those with Ataris and Apples almost never had to replace their > machines. You've ignored the point I made that C64 sales that year as a percentage of the market were still larger than Macs, which *were* considered a major force then. And in the purely anecdotal category, which is the same category as your statement above, we took our C64 back three times and eventually wound up with a working unit but only actually purchased one. Your point doesn't really mean anything and neither does mine -- Commodore had abysmal quality control and that was part of how they got the price down, which was well-known and frequently reported. By 1989, people could have just as easily gone and bought something else and many did. Furthermore, if they were "legacy," what does that mean, exactly? That they weren't *really* sales because people didn't walk up, put their card on the counter, and take home another system? That's still another notch on the sales tick. If you want to assert that legacy in this case means people with an established investment in Commodore software and peripherals buying another Commodore system, I'll certainly go along with that (I was one of those people) but that still means the installed base sustains itself and that still means that sales were still going on irrespective of why. Commodore may have been selling in Toys'R'Us rather than Computerland, but it was still selling to home users. > > The 64 was already by comparison several > > times slower than most commodity PCs (and worse against the 286), and was > > capped at 64K when most PC systems were being sold with 512K or more. > > Other than the big projects (SPICE, SILOS, OS class - very cleverly > done on the VAX), none of the projects would have strained a C64. OK, > so doing some sort of algorithm test might take a minute of CPU time > rather than 15 seconds. Not a big deal. Except for the few users who would have had some sort of high-level language development environment, that would have been limited to BASIC and its poor computational support. Commodore BASIC didn't have high-precision math or floating point, and although I can think of a few packages that did, they were niche software applications with very poor availability to prosumers and were very specific in their scope of usage. I'm not going to dispute that the raw computations could have been done, given a problem that can fit within the constraints of the 64's memory, as I've made a hobby out of making an 8-bit system do stuff that "only bigger CPUs can do." But the other dimension was how easily it would be to do such a thing. I'm an MD with some spare time, no kids, and no grades hanging in the balance, so I can afford to take a few months and write up my own math libraries, matrix manipulation routines, etc., test them and make use of them. Would a typical college kid have had the inclination to make that sort of time and energy investment, when there were comparatively more powerful machines available with pre-written software that could do the job faster and with less elbow grease when their grades were on the line and they only had the semester? Ability, yes, but inclination, no. I'm sure *you* would have, and I'm sure others on this list would, but our presence on this list as classic system enthusiasts means we're not exactly average bears (tip of the hat to r. stricklin). And again, even were you able to complete these kinds of application-specific routines or algorithms, you still have the problem of memory for larger datasets which you can't overcome with anything but hardware. And REUs and geoRAMs weren't magic additional addressing space. > > The 64 also lacked a display that would have > > qualified as high-resolution by prevailing standards, > > It was certainly enough to display the ideas presented, like control > system behavior, physics experiments, etc.. I think this would have varied greatly with the particular project. For simply reporting results, no question, the simple text display would have sufficed, maybe some non-complex diagrams. Start getting into large projects requiring the display of bigger datasets, or monitoring large numbers of values in real time, and that's just not all going to fit. Scroll if you like, but that's a big minus for a real time application. It's interesting to note that the Commodore 64s which were deployed in systems such as HVAC were all run basically headless and some other module handled the display and user interface. Gazette had a nice article on these. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Wherever I go, there's I AM. ----------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 12:51:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:51:05 -0700 Subject: Show your stuff In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4629EC99.3573.2EE50169@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2007 at 13:06, William Donzelli wrote: > I want to see Big Iron, not paperweights. Sigh. It seems that if you want to see much Big Iron these days, your best bet is to visit a steel mill. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 21 13:01:40 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:01:40 -0700 Subject: Show your stuff - medium iron? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462A5184.5070501@sbcglobal.net> You can visit me and see an IBM 1800 and 1130. Also some mini's like a CDC 5601, IBM Series/1 etc. Not exactly Big Iron, but I sure can't lift one. Bob www.dvq.com William Donzelli wrote: >> Definately go to the DigiBarn if you get a chance. > > I want to see Big Iron, not paperweights. > > -- > Will > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 21 13:10:20 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 14:10:20 -0400 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: References: <200704211232.42787.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200704211410.20864.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 21 April 2007 13:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/21/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Try "hwinfo" under Linux. > > Is that an add-on? I don't seem to see it on my RedHat boxes. It's an extra package, but almost everything in the linux world is an "extra package". Debian distributes it through apt... >From what I can find, it's originally from SuSE. I couldn't easily find any RPMs for RedHat, but you could always try installing from source, or installing from SuSE RPMs. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 13:39:14 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 14:39:14 -0400 Subject: Show your stuff - medium iron? In-Reply-To: <462A5184.5070501@sbcglobal.net> References: <462A5184.5070501@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > You can visit me and see an IBM 1800 and 1130. Also some mini's like a > CDC 5601, IBM Series/1 etc. > Not exactly Big Iron, but I sure can't lift one. Let me have your phone number - certainly an 1800 deserves a look. Did you get it from Mike Ross? -- Will From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Apr 21 14:20:31 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 15:20:31 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <200704211705.l3LH4EqX065245@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704211705.l3LH4EqX065245@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <462A63FF.9020608@yahoo.com> The TRS-80 Model I CAN run CP/M. There were several add-on boards that allowed for the swapping in of RAM into the ROM address space. One was called "The Omikron Mapper". And I'm sure there were others. My CP/M Capable list is: LNW-80 Model I Apple IIgs w/CP/M card IBM 5150 XT with CP/M Card Atari-ST (CP/M 68000) Timex/Sinclair 2068 with Timex Portugal Disk System That's it! Al Phila, PA > From: Dave McGuire > I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running > unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be > remapped...is this correct? > > -Dave > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:29:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 14:29:59 -0500 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <4629EC71.7020307@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4629EC71.7020307@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <462A6637.6010100@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Transam Tuscan > > Another unusual one. Does it work? I know a couple of people who > started to build a Tuscan, but they never got one to work properly. > Those machines looked very attractive but had a bad reputation for > reliability and poor board design. Someone (who may well be on this list) pointed me at a Tuscan Yahoo group the other day. It seems to be one of those "only join by invitation" groups, but if there are any Tuscan owners on here who are interested then shout - I can put you in touch with the person who contacted me (assuming they aren't on here and don't speak up directly :) cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 21 14:49:32 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 3.0: July 14-15, West Layatette, IN, USA Message-ID: <200704211549.32788.pat@computer-refuge.org> ANNOUNCEMENT: for immediate release The third annual Vintage Computer Festival Midwest will be held again this year at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, USA. The VCF is an event celebrating computing history with speakers and exhibits, and is supported almost entirely by hobbyists. As before, there will be a small vendor section, including consignment sales. The event will be a two-day event for the first time, this year, and will be from 10am until 6pm on Saturday and Sunday, July 14th and 15th. Ticket prices will be $5/day, with children 17 and under having free admission. For more details, including how to be an exhibitor, vendor, attendee, speaker, etc, please see the following URL, or contact me (Patrick Finnegan) @ vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. We are currently looking for speakers for this year's event, so if you're interested in talking about a vintage computing subject, please let me know! http://www.vintage.org/2007/midwest/ Thanks go to the Purdue University Rosen Center for Advanced Computing for their support of the show. Please come and help make this show a success! Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 15:42:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com> <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070421134026.O45438@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007, Ensor wrote: > BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" disc pack > for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; rather it had a basic > "disc filing system" in ROM)? TRS-80 Model 1 can run a "relocated" CP/M (from FMG?). OR, minor circuitry (from Parasitic Engineering, Omicron, etc.) can convert it to a "real" CP/M machine. And, HUH made an S100 adapter for it, to be able to use other interesting boards. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 15:56:53 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 15:56:53 -0500 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704211356qcdf44e8n2eb08432344b5aca@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/07, Richard wrote: > Yep, also picked up: > > Crimson $50 > Ach, my favorite SGI machine! It's just so....red! I've got a Iris Power Series (?) 4D/130 downstairs that I can't get going. Man is it *heavy*... From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 16:10:12 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:10:12 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <4629D4D6.8445.2E882E2D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4629D4D6.8445.2E882E2D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704211410l57c2aba9k76bd9339b2e86b1c@mail.gmail.com> On 21/04/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: [...] > functioning in this capacity as well as various x80 systems, I've > never seen a business using a C64 or C128 to do their office "bread > and butter" work. Games and educational software simply don't hold > much of a place in my universe (I have a fair collection of them from > the old SIMCGA days; but they never interested me). > > So, in my world, by 1985, people were leaving the 8-bitters behind in > droves and there were plenty of people to encourage them. Actually, somewhere about 1985 I made my first money programming: fixing the business app my dad's boss was running on a C64 (can't remember what it did; database, I guess). This was in germany and I was 11. I saw plenty of C64's and C128s in business settings until I left europe in 88. In Canada (and I guess the same was true for the US) it was a wholly different thing, and by that time, PCs had taken over. Joe. From mail at g-lenerz.de Sat Apr 21 16:12:59 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:12:59 +0200 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704211356qcdf44e8n2eb08432344b5aca@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <51ea77730704211356qcdf44e8n2eb08432344b5aca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2310619155.20070421231259@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, April 21, 2007, 10:56:53 PM, you wrote: > Ach, my favorite SGI machine! It's just so....red! I've got a Iris > Power Series (?) 4D/130 downstairs that I can't get going. Man is it > *heavy*... Yup, a 4D/310 would be a Power Series machine. Any 3-digit IRIS 4D is Power Series including the 64 bit Crimson hack (aka 4D/510). The two digit IRIS 4D are either Personal Iris (brownish "bigtower") machines (4D/2x or 4D/3x) or Professional Iris (the first SGI/MIPS machines). What's wrong with your system aside from being way too heavy to lift alone to the power outlet upstairs? Generally they're pretty sturdy and don't go "beyond" that easy. ;-) Did I ever mention my 230V vs. 110V mistake on the list where the PSU went belly up halfway into the machines POST? The PSU is now on the "needs to be repaired" stack, the 4D/420 VGX itself is alive and kicking. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From mail at g-lenerz.de Sat Apr 21 16:16:06 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:16:06 +0200 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <200704211344.l3LDirQX013212@floodgap.com> References: <857C399B-8D28-44E1-98F2-C7AD529F4CF5@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at "Apr 21, 7 01:15:47 am" <200704211344.l3LDirQX013212@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <12610115427.20070421231606@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, April 21, 2007, 3:44:53 PM, you wrote: > My AIX 4.1 machines don't like -p -- I don't think that was added until 4.3. I don't have an AIX machine around for testing, but now that you people mention it, I can remember various install and configuration attempts on RS6000/AIX that proved for a great interaction between hardware and software. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 16:30:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 14:30:19 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704211410l57c2aba9k76bd9339b2e86b1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <4629D4D6.8445.2E882E2D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4affc5e0704211410l57c2aba9k76bd9339b2e86b1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2007 at 17:10, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Actually, somewhere about 1985 I made my first money programming: > fixing the business app my dad's boss was running on a C64 (can't > remember what it did; database, I guess). This was in germany and I > was 11. I saw plenty of C64's and C128s in business settings until I > left europe in 88. In Canada (and I guess the same was true for the > US) it was a wholly different thing, and by that time, PCs had taken > over. I recall in 1983 how difficult it was to even *order* a 220V 50Hz 5150 from IBM. The IBM sales office people just shrugged their shoulders and said that they'd look into it. My impression that IBM put most of its effort into selling in the US--and that was also the same target of the Taiwanese clone makers. It could have been a matter of certification--FCC Part 15 certification was pretty easy to get, but VDE was whole different matter. I've noticed the US-Europe divide in other areas. For example, the Amiga seemed to be much more popular in Europe than in the USA. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 16:32:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:32:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 21, 7 05:38:59 am Message-ID: > BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" disc pack No idea on the MEmotech (I don';t have one yet), but for the TRS-80 M1 there were basically 2 solutions. The problem was that CP/M needs RAM starting at location 0, the TRS-80 has the BASIC ROMs there and starts RAM at, IIRC, 0x4000. The first solution was a modifed CP/M _and modified application programs_ relocated to run in RAM starting at 0x4000. Needless to say this rather limited the programs you could run. The second solution was an add-on circuit board (I think it fitted under the Z80 chip, and probably had flying lead connections as well) that re-mapped the memory to stick the ROMs out of the way and put the RAM at location 0. This could then run normal CP/M programs, of course. No, I don't have this board... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 16:29:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:29:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 21, 7 04:53:41 am Message-ID: > ISTR that a lot (if not all) of the early 8086/88 machines, which weren't > IBM clones, could be expanded well past 640K. IIRC the HP150 and 150-II haev a 640K limit on RAM. Odd, since the machine is totally IBM-incompatible in other ways (the BIOS calls, not to mention the hardware, are totally different), so there's no obvious reason why they stuck something (video?) at the A0000 address preventing you from having more RAM, but they did. Oh well. There was a paged RAM board (a bit like expanded memory) fro the 150, which for some odd reason also included an HP-HIL port. Maybe it was needed for Windows or something (yes, there was a Windows for the HP150), and that's where you connected the mouse. > I definitely recall having 896K in one of my Sirii and my Apricot Xi. My original Apricot has been pushed up to 960K or something like that. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 16:43:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:43:32 -0500 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: <2310619155.20070421231259@g-lenerz.de> References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <51ea77730704211356qcdf44e8n2eb08432344b5aca@mail.gmail.com> <2310619155.20070421231259@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <51ea77730704211443g25e860dby9842e30b169a0c38@mail.gmail.com> On 4/21/07, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Saturday, April 21, 2007, 10:56:53 PM, you wrote: > Power Series including the 64 bit Crimson hack (aka 4D/510). The two > digit IRIS 4D are either Personal Iris (brownish "bigtower") machines > (4D/2x or 4D/3x) or Professional Iris (the first SGI/MIPS machines). Yep, got a couple of those, too. One even works! > What's wrong with your system aside from being way too heavy to lift > alone to the power outlet upstairs? Generally they're pretty sturdy It powers up, but I just can't get anything out of the console. It was in pretty sad shape when I got it, boards all out, console cables disconnected. I replaced everything to the best of my knowledge, but no luck on any POST info. Also, it dims the lights a bit every time I turn it on :) It's a forgotten project in the basement right now. But it makes a great drink stand! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Apr 21 16:55:55 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:55:55 +0100 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <200704210824.l3L8NLa6059029@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704210824.l3L8NLa6059029@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 21 Apr, 2007, at 09:24, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 23 > Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:46:53 -0500 > From: Jeff Walther > If any of your documentation is related to hardware design as opposed > to user guides and user manuals I would be very grateful if I could > get a look at it. You probably need 'Designing Cards and Drivers', part of the Inside Macintosh series. > One specific thing I've been wondering about is how one implements > quickdraw acceleration. Was there an Apple guide to doing this in > some of the developer materials, or was it something which each > company worked out on their own -- deciding which Quickdraw calls to > trap and send to the video card? Though I've never done it for hardware acceleration purposes, I would think you just need to override some of the standard routines in the QuickDraw bottleneck. StdLine, StdRect, StrRRect, StdOval, StdPoly, StdBits, StdRegion and StdText. The ones you don't need are for reading/writing pictures and picture comments. I have used these to capture data for pen plotters, raster printers and into applications. Alas on OS-X we now need to be able to read PDF - a much more complicated format and proprietary to Adobe, though with the great benefit of platform independence for files. Roger Holmes Author/Part Author/Maintainer of MacPlot, MacPalette, MacDraft, MacInteriors, Graphic pack, XRip, 3DWorld, Microspot Interiors, Microspot Modeller etc. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 21 12:35:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:35:04 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment Message-ID: <0JGU000N5ZHCEUTD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quick survey on equipment > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:00:55 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:38 AM, Ensor wrote: >> BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" >> disc pack for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; >> rather it had a basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? > > I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running >unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be >remapped...is this correct? > Correct as standard CP/M. there was a version that allowed for that ROM. It was not standard and dur to that and the small TPA it would not run most appications available. If you had source you could reassemble/compile as needed and then run it for the new 4200h start adresss (nominal is 100H). Allison From Grahamavenue at cs.com Sat Apr 21 16:49:00 2007 From: Grahamavenue at cs.com (Grahamavenue at cs.com) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:49:00 EDT Subject: IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking for a Displaywriter. May I ask where you got yours? Jerry From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 21 18:06:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <290244.7076.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Just a dopey question that is kinda sorta related to this topic. I realize that painting a picture on a tube consists of more then just turning bits on or off in video memory (port calls and stuff), but in just attempting to circumvent that portion of video incompatiblity in software, is it practical, or totally feasible in all cases, for a software to remap every reference to memory locations? Ultimately what I'm asking I guess is if there are software constructs that make certain attempts ambiguous or even impossible. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 18:32:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:32:07 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <462A63FF.9020608@yahoo.com> References: <200704211705.l3LH4EqX065245@dewey.classiccmp.org> <462A63FF.9020608@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <06123D09-8FA1-473A-9B0B-E417F1727173@neurotica.com> On Apr 21, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Al Hartman wrote: > The TRS-80 Model I CAN run CP/M. There were several add-on boards > that allowed for the swapping in of RAM into the ROM address space. > > One was called "The Omikron Mapper". And I'm sure there were others. Ahh ok. But an unmodified Model I cannot remap the lower address space? (I'm wondering if I have any possibility of running CP/M on mine!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 18:32:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:32:33 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <0JGU000N5ZHCEUTD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGU000N5ZHCEUTD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <05DDAEDA-25BC-40A2-995D-9FC6B9BCF9DE@neurotica.com> On Apr 21, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Allison wrote: >>> BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" >>> disc pack for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; >>> rather it had a basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? >> >> I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running >> unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be >> remapped...is this correct? >> > > Correct as standard CP/M. there was a version that allowed for that > ROM. > It was not standard and dur to that and the small TPA it would not run > most appications available. If you had source you could reassemble/ > compile > as needed and then run it for the new 4200h start adresss (nominal > is 100H). Ahh I see, neat! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 21 18:37:36 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:37:36 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Perhaps part of the problem is that there are better places to go for > things such as C64's, Apple ]['s, Amiga's and the like. There isn't for the IBM PC/XT/AT/Jr, etc., but thankfully we have Chuck and Dave and Tony and... so I'm happy the list "tolerates" such discussions. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 18:52:16 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:52:16 +1000 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002001c78470$18f2d700$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) > There isn't for the IBM PC/XT/AT/Jr, etc., but thankfully we have Chuck > and Dave and Tony and... so I'm happy the list "tolerates" such > discussions. What about Uncreative Labs ? - http://www.uncreativelabs.net/ cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com:6969/ Bittorent tracker for classic computer files // From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 18:59:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <06123D09-8FA1-473A-9B0B-E417F1727173@neurotica.com> References: <200704211705.l3LH4EqX065245@dewey.classiccmp.org> <462A63FF.9020608@yahoo.com> <06123D09-8FA1-473A-9B0B-E417F1727173@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070421165254.I45438@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh ok. But an unmodified Model I cannot remap the lower address > space? (I'm wondering if I have any possibility of running CP/M on > mine!) You have a choice: hardware to remap (Omicron or Parasitic Engineering (Eric Smith has mine)), which also included adapter board for 8" drives, or software (special high memory version of CP/M (FMG) that is incompatible with almost all commercial software (sold it at VCF)) There are similar solutions for model 3. Model 2 and model 4 can run CP/M without modification. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 21 19:20:33 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird Stuff store has classic Macs Message-ID: <283879.87822.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> current e-mail flyer states so. Don't know if they're pre- or post ADB. If yer lucky enough to live nearby, go look :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Apr 21 19:43:50 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:43:50 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? Message-ID: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in the last week) about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or maybe I dreamed that up. Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my 11/34 console was blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits" in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on. (this is a symptom described in the ky11 documenation - thank you very much to whomever scanned that in) Has anyone debugged a dead KY11 ? Any hints? I looked at the docs and schematics and followed the wise words on page 8-2 titles "M7859 FAILURES" I have +5 and -9 on the 8008 as well as clock(s). But the "INTR" line (pin 18) is stuck high. I assume this is the problem. [aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward and got the display to show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found that interesting] STOP L and TS1 L are inactive, as are all the S0,S1 & S2 on the 8008. Interestingly ping 14 is wiggling. I don't have a databook with with an 8008 in it and that pin is not labeled. I have only just started, but I'd thought I'd ask if anyone has done this recently. It's fun debugging ttl. It's all so *slow* and manageable ;-) -brad From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 21 19:51:30 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:51:30 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: References: <200704202201.l3KM0wTP051136@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2007, at 2:46 AM, Jeff Walther wrote: > Rob, > > Amongst the SE/30 collection crowd there is near fanatical interest > in the old Xceed Color 30, Color 30HR, and MacroColor 30 -- the > cards which install in an SE/30 and are compatible with the > Grayscale board. > > I've been slowly working my way around to designing a new card to > do the same function. FPGAs are fast and affordable and SRAM or > fast SDRAM is also affordable in the quantities needed. > > If any of your documentation is related to hardware design as > opposed to user guides and user manuals I would be very grateful if > I could get a look at it. > > One specific thing I've been wondering about is how one implements > quickdraw acceleration. Was there an Apple guide to doing this in > some of the developer materials, or was it something which each > company worked out on their own -- deciding which Quickdraw calls > to trap and send to the video card? > > Jeff Walther Jeff, I designed the hardware upgrades and wrote the drivers for the Color 30HR and the MacroColor30HR. I should have all the original source, schematics, and the Layout of the original FPGA (icky) for that card also. I should also (somewhere) have the schematic and stuff for the grayscale adapter. Let me see what I can do. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 20:03:15 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:03:15 -0700 Subject: CADO computers In-Reply-To: References: <200704211234.04210.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > > > COMPORT at aol.com writes: > > > > I HAVE A BUNCH OF CADO COMPUTERS. > > > > > > Is this a brand, a model, or what? What kind of computer is it? > > > I had some CADOs go through my hands 15 years or so ago. I think they were 8 bit but not sure, They could have been early 8086 or even 68000 machines. They had a side by side 5 1/4 Full Height Floppy and Hard drive of the usual 10 Meg vintage with the monitor mounted above and a custom external keyboard. Kind of like the Vector Graphic 4 computers. A little taller and bulkier. I could sell all I got my hands on to a single dealer back east in the 1990s -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 20:29:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:29:02 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <20070421165254.I45438@shell.lmi.net> References: <200704211705.l3LH4EqX065245@dewey.classiccmp.org> <462A63FF.9020608@yahoo.com> <06123D09-8FA1-473A-9B0B-E417F1727173@neurotica.com> <20070421165254.I45438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40F329E8-65F2-4536-9543-BF0E26F08059@neurotica.com> On Apr 21, 2007, at 7:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Ahh ok. But an unmodified Model I cannot remap the lower address >> space? (I'm wondering if I have any possibility of running CP/M on >> mine!) > > You have a choice: > hardware to remap (Omicron or Parasitic Engineering (Eric Smith has > mine)), which also included adapter board for 8" drives, or > > software (special high memory version of CP/M (FMG) that is > incompatible > with almost all commercial software (sold it at VCF)) Ahh ok. > There are similar solutions for model 3. I had assumed as much, due to the architectural similarities between the I and III. > Model 2 and model 4 can run CP/M without modification. This much I knew. I've never seen either in person running CP/M though. I have a Model II here that is in poor condition (incompetent shipper); I hope to spend some time on it this summer. Perhaps I will try to get ahold of CP/M for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Apr 21 20:30:17 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:30:17 -0700 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: References: <200704211232.42787.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200704211830.18039.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 21 April 2007 10:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/21/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Try "hwinfo" under Linux. > > Is that an add-on? I don't seem to see it on my RedHat boxes. It's not on SuSE either... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 20:51:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <40F329E8-65F2-4536-9543-BF0E26F08059@neurotica.com> References: <200704211705.l3LH4EqX065245@dewey.classiccmp.org> <462A63FF.9020608@yahoo.com> <06123D09-8FA1-473A-9B0B-E417F1727173@neurotica.com> <20070421165254.I45438@shell.lmi.net> <40F329E8-65F2-4536-9543-BF0E26F08059@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070421184143.N45438@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > This much I knew. I've never seen either in person running CP/M > though. I have a Model II here that is in poor condition > (incompetent shipper); I hope to spend some time on it this summer. > Perhaps I will try to get ahold of CP/M for it. There are multiple different ports of CP/M. For the model 4, RS sold "CP/M+" (3.0), but some of the folks that ported CP/M to the 3 (such as Montezuma Micro) also had releases of CP/M 2.x For the model 2, there were several implementations, including "Lifeboat" and "Pickles and Trout" From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 21:06:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:06:40 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <290244.7076.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <290244.7076.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462A60C0.14237.13A4F6F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2007 at 16:06, Chris M wrote: > Just a dopey question that is kinda sorta related to > this topic. I realize that painting a picture on a > tube consists of more then just turning bits on or off > in video memory (port calls and stuff), but in just > attempting to circumvent that portion of video > incompatiblity in software, is it practical, or > totally feasible in all cases, for a software to remap > every reference to memory locations? Ultimately what > I'm asking I guess is if there are software constructs > that make certain attempts ambiguous or even impossible. Now I feel like the dopey one... I don't understand what you're asking. Care to restate it for us thick-as-a-brick folks? :-) Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Apr 21 21:14:17 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:14:17 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46273647.10230.244CDA3B@cclist.sydex.com> <048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <2d2701c78483$ee579d50$0701a8c0@liberator> The 640K barrier was due to the location of the memory map for CGA graphics IIRC. If you were running monochrome you could squeeze a little more ram out of the system IIRC. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ensor Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) > It wasn't the only system. I believe that the VIsual Commuter >could also be expanded past 640K in the base area--and it was >almost PC-compatible. ISTR that a lot (if not all) of the early 8086/88 machines, which weren't IBM clones, could be expanded well past 640K. In fact, the more I think about it, ISTR that the PC was unusual in being limited to 640K.... I definitely recall having 896K in one of my Sirii and my Apricot Xi. TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 21:30:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <2d2701c78483$ee579d50$0701a8c0@liberator> References: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46273647.10230.244CDA3B@cclist.sydex.com> <048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <2d2701c78483$ee579d50$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <20070421192517.V45438@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: > The 640K barrier was due to the location of the memory map for CGA graphics > IIRC. If you were running monochrome you could squeeze a little more ram > out of the system IIRC. CGA was at segment B800. MDA was at segment B000 640K was at segment A000 A000 - B000 was "reserved for future expansion (EGA, VGA, etc.) 384K seems like a lot of space to set aside. But, at the time, 640K was 10 times what was otherwise available (64K), and surely nobody would need more than THAT! From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 21 21:37:10 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:37:10 -0500 Subject: 8-bit (S100) question Message-ID: <000001c78487$2113ddf0$0a6fa8c0@obie> I'm building up a demo S100 system for VCF. I'm considering using a modern switching power supply for regulated power and abandoning the onboard voltage regulators on each card. I know the last CompuPro boxes took this route so it must be feasible. What is the general wisdom/experience with this approach? Thanks! No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.6/770 - Release Date: 4/20/2007 6:43 PM From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 21 21:42:15 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:42:15 -0500 Subject: Wanted: WAMECO FDC-1 floppy disk controller Message-ID: <000101c78487$d6e3e760$0a6fa8c0@obie> Anybody have a WAMECO floppy disk controller for sale or trade? Please reply offlist. Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.6/770 - Release Date: 4/20/2007 6:43 PM From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 21 22:30:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:30:51 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <004f01c7848e$a1a695a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote... >C64's, Apple ]['s, Amiga's and the like. Jim wrote... > There isn't for the IBM PC/XT/AT/Jr, etc., but thankfully we have Chuck > and Dave and Tony and... so I'm happy the list "tolerates" such > discussions. Tolerates??? All these machines have been very clearly on-topic since... well... I have ever been here. I'd say it's more than "toleration" :) Jay From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 21 22:33:10 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:33:10 -0400 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: References: <200704202201.l3KM0wTP051136@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9168C357-7C72-41D2-BADD-0ACEF52305A9@colourfull.com> On Apr 21, 2007, at 2:46 AM, Jeff Walther wrote: > > One specific thing I've been wondering about is how one implements > quickdraw acceleration. Was there an Apple guide to doing this in > some of the developer materials, or was it something which each > company worked out on their own -- deciding which Quickdraw calls > to trap and send to the video card? > > Jeff Walther Jeff, Sorry, I missed this part. There was no Apple guide for quickdraw acceleration. It was primarily frowned upon because a lot of times you had to understand how quickdraw regions worked on a lower level. When I designed Colorfusion (Xceed's LC-PDS video card) we used a Weitek Video controller which had basic line drawing, rectangles, and screen bliting. What we did was study quickdraw in the debugger (I want to say the debugger was something like Mac Nosey? I could be wrong though) and we found two or three places to hook into. The hooks were decided on by the exact functions we could replicate. Though you had to be careful because certain applications would violate quickdraw rules. I want to say one of those applications was Microsoft Word. I might have the source code for the acceleration routines we used for Colorfusion. I'll have to look. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 21 22:34:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:34:29 -0400 Subject: hinv (was: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?) In-Reply-To: <200704211830.18039.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200704211830.18039.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200704212334.29124.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 21 April 2007 21:30, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Saturday 21 April 2007 10:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 4/21/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Try "hwinfo" under Linux. > > > > Is that an add-on? I don't seem to see it on my RedHat boxes. > > It's not on SuSE either... Sure it is, if you install the right RPM when you install the system. hwinfo *came from* SuSE. >From apt-cache show hwinfo on the Debian box I'm on right now: Description: Hardware identification system hwinfo is the hardware detection tool used in SuSE Linux. . In Debian-Edu (Skolelinux) hwinfo has shown better results than discover when detecting mouse, keyboard and monitor. . hwinfo collects information about the hardware installed on a system. Among others, libhd contains information about cdrom, zip, floppy, disks and partitions, network card, graphics card, monitor, camera, mouse, sound, pppoe, isdn, modem, printer, scanner, bios, cpu, usb, memory and smp. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 21 23:30:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:30:04 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <4629D4D6.8445.2E882E2D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4affc5e0704211410l57c2aba9k76bd9339b2e86b1c@mail.gmail.com> <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recall in 1983 how difficult it was to even *order* a 220V 50Hz > 5150 from IBM. The IBM sales office people just shrugged their If the entire system was designed around the NTSC frequency (and one would assume the 60Hz AC power to match) then how did a "euro" IBM PC work? Did it have 60Hz CGA as well? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 21 23:32:42 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:32:42 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <004f01c7848e$a1a695a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org> <004f01c7848e$a1a695a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <462AE56A.7020806@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > All these machines have been very clearly on-topic since... well... I > have ever been here. I'd say it's more than "toleration" :) On-topic maybe, but "gaining approval from the DEC glass tower" is a completely different thing :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From grant at stockly.com Sun Apr 22 00:13:49 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:13:49 -0800 Subject: 8-bit (S100) question In-Reply-To: <000001c78487$2113ddf0$0a6fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070421210639.039e94c8@pop.1and1.com> At 06:37 PM 4/21/2007, you wrote: >I'm building up a demo S100 system for VCF. I'm considering using a >modern switching power supply for regulated power and abandoning the >onboard voltage regulators on each card. I know the last CompuPro boxes >took this route so it must be feasible. What is the general >wisdom/experience with this approach? I sell a 100w 8v and 60w 16/-16v switchers with my kits. I'm not sure what the limits are on them yet. I do have 8 8k SEALS cards I could throw in my Altair. :) With this route you could leave your cards alone. Are you interested in doing this for both weight/heat savings? Or just weight? I banged my head into a wall trying to maintain the cards original design while still having switchers... Here are pictures of Geoff Harrison's Altair replica with 4 IMSAI 4k RAM cards. I'm pretty sure these are cards with 32 2102s. I think he also has a terminal and disk drive card in it by now. http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?p=520#post520 Some people ask me if 100w/60w is enough. Power Factor has bigger supplies if it is a concern. The switchers will supply their output with a lot less voltage drop than a linear supply. I wonder if a lot of the linear supplies were over done because of that... I've sent you these before, but here they are again: They are trimmed up from 7.5v and +/-15v. http://www.power-factor-1st.com/shop...es/s-100f.html http://www.power-factor-1st.com/shop...ries/t-60.html Grant From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 22 00:17:32 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <002001c78470$18f2d700$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org> <002001c78470$18f2d700$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <462AEFEC.7020602@oldskool.org> Lance Lyon wrote: > >> There isn't for the IBM PC/XT/AT/Jr, etc., but thankfully we have >> Chuck and Dave and Tony and... so I'm happy the list "tolerates" such >> discussions. > > What about Uncreative Labs ? - http://www.uncreativelabs.net/ It's a great site, but it's not a discussion forum (unless I'm missing something?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 01:20:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:20:48 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com>, <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2007 at 23:30, Jim Leonard wrote: > If the entire system was designed around the NTSC frequency (and one > would assume the 60Hz AC power to match) then how did a "euro" IBM PC > work? Did it have 60Hz CGA as well? I believe so, unless there was a very different CGA card for Europe. If there was, the Tech Ref is completely silent on the subject. BTW, when we asked if the 5150 could simply be run from a 220V-120V 50Hz stepdown transformer the answer came back quite emphatically: "No, you cannot--and if you try, it will void the warranty." I pressed the sales people for specifics and they said something about "the power supply won't allow it". AFAIK, the only line-frequency dependent part in the PSU was the AC fan--and 50Hz probably wouldn't have made a difference. I never did get a straight answer why IBM was being such a stick-in- the-mud about the whole affair. We ended up shipping some Stearns PCs instead. While not 100% 5150-compatible, they did have 8 MHz 8086s and were somewhat zippier than the 5150. They did the job. I don't know if any of the Stearns PCs made it into collections. Cheers, Chuck From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 01:35:42 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:35:42 +1000 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org><002001c78470$18f2d700$0100a8c0@pentium> <462AEFEC.7020602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007201c784a8$74f390c0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) > Lance Lyon wrote: >> >>> There isn't for the IBM PC/XT/AT/Jr, etc., but thankfully we have Chuck >>> and Dave and Tony and... so I'm happy the list "tolerates" such >>> discussions. >> >> What about Uncreative Labs ? - http://www.uncreativelabs.net/ > > It's a great site, but it's not a discussion forum (unless I'm missing > something?) Yup - here - http://www.uncreativelabs.net/phpBB2/ cheers, Lance From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 22 01:44:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:44:14 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com>, <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 8086s and were somewhat zippier than the 5150. They did the job. I > don't know if any of the Stearns PCs made it into collections. I wonder how many of the PC-compatible-yet-goofy-hardware 808x clones have been lost to the ages. I still own my AT&T PC 6300, proprietary 640x400 (not a typo) monitor and all, and consider it just barely compatible enough to hold onto. (I have pretty high standards; I can count the number of apps/games that will never run on it on both hands). Then again, who am I kidding; it was the first PC that our family personally owned (father was AT&T employee) so I'd probably try to keep it going no matter what. A friend had a Sperry machine capable of many more colors than CGA could produce, although the monitor (also proprietary connector IIRC) was some sort of slow-response phosphor -- it was like working in front of a "color" monochrome monitor, if that makes any sense. It ran "best" with it's OEM-customized version of MS-DOS, and ran about 90% of the apps out there. It's level of compatibility was incredibly frustrating; hardware bangers like Music Construction Set (heavy timer usage, direct writes to screen RAM, direct disk sector loads, etc.) worked perfectly, while Sorcim's SuperWriter word processor -- a fairly creampuff app -- would lock the machine up. Crazy machine!! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Apr 22 02:54:23 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:54:23 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <20070421192517.V45438@shell.lmi.net> References: <200704190142.l3J1fYOn013360@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46273647.10230.244CDA3B@cclist.sydex.com><048901c783d2$10495280$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><2d2701c78483$ee579d50$0701a8c0@liberator> <20070421192517.V45438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <36fb01c784b3$713aa670$0701a8c0@liberator> Thanks fred, it's been quite a while since I've had to worry about the memory location of a video card so I'm obviously rusty :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) On Sat, 21 Apr 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: > The 640K barrier was due to the location of the memory map for CGA graphics > IIRC. If you were running monochrome you could squeeze a little more ram > out of the system IIRC. CGA was at segment B800. MDA was at segment B000 640K was at segment A000 A000 - B000 was "reserved for future expansion (EGA, VGA, etc.) 384K seems like a lot of space to set aside. But, at the time, 640K was 10 times what was otherwise available (64K), and surely nobody would need more than THAT! From mail at g-lenerz.de Sun Apr 22 03:50:40 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:50:40 +0200 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704211443g25e860dby9842e30b169a0c38@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <51ea77730704211356qcdf44e8n2eb08432344b5aca@mail.gmail.com> <2310619155.20070421231259@g-lenerz.de> <51ea77730704211443g25e860dby9842e30b169a0c38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1416941871.20070422105040@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, April 21, 2007, 11:43:32 PM, you wrote: > It's a forgotten project in the basement right now. But it makes a > great drink stand! Indeed... just the right size for a table. :) Should you ever pick the project up again, try a minimum configuration with just CPU board (IP7), IO board (IO3 I presume) and memory board (MC2). For further diag you can watch the blinkenlights on the boards or remove the reset/power/led assembly where AFAIR you can find a 1 digit LED display that shows at least some POST progress (the old twin towers had this on the front and not hidden). But I know the problem... so much to do, so little time. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Apr 22 03:53:38 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:53:38 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:30:04 CDT." <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200704220853.JAA28068@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jim Leonard said: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I recall in 1983 how difficult it was to even *order* a 220V 50Hz > > 5150 from IBM. The IBM sales office people just shrugged their > > If the entire system was designed around the NTSC frequency (and one > would assume the 60Hz AC power to match) then how did a "euro" IBM PC > work? Did it have 60Hz CGA as well? Yes. Got a card somewhere, but no colour monitor. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 22 08:53:09 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:53:09 -0500 Subject: More 8-bit threads (was: Lack of 8-bit threads) References: <200704202234.l3KMY8mB006171@onyx.spiritone.com> <462AA040.7060405@oldskool.org><004f01c7848e$a1a695a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <462AE56A.7020806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001c01c784e5$93b86160$6500a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > On-topic maybe, but "gaining approval from the DEC glass tower" is a > completely different thing :-) I have never, ever, ever seen someone complain about a post because it was non-dec. Are you saying that because some here talk about dec stuff that it magically makes everyone too intimidated about posting about non-dec stuff? Take Jim for example - I believe he's a non DEC mini (or mostly anyways) person. But yet I see regular posts (usually several per day) here from him. Have since he joined. Good thing I'd say :) Jay From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sun Apr 22 09:01:28 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:01:28 +0100 Subject: Available FOC Winman 4x4 EISA MIDI I/Face. Message-ID: Hello all, Just been sorting through all my junk as part of a spring clean. One ?sort of on-topic? item that seemed too good to throw away is a MIDIman Winman 4x4 MIDI interface on an EISA card. Pictured here (warning 4MP image): http://ozpass.co.uk/files/Winman-4X4.jpg The card offers 4 in/out MIDI channels and was pulled (a long time ago) from a system running Cubase VST on Windows ?98. Functional to the best of my knowledge. If anybody wants the card it?s yours free-of-charge (excluding cost of delivery). Let me know off-list. Regards, Austin. P.S. Based in Manchester, UK. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 22 09:27:14 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:27:14 -0500 Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked Message-ID: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> I've had an IMS 5000 system for about a year; I got it off ebay for a song ($35), but as I didn't know any login name and corresponding password, it has been a brick. I've thought of a couple ways to break the security, which isn't all that secure, but didn't due to lack of time. Finally I made time last night. The machine specifically is an IMS 5000 IS. It is a very well built late model S-100 system, aimed at professional applications. This one came from a dentists office. The main unit contains a 12" CRT, an intelligent terminal control board (8085 based) which is connected via an internal serial port to a Z80 CPU card in the main S-100 chassis. This is a turbodos system, meaning it is a multiprocessing Z80 system. Serial ports on the back of the machine can connect to remote terminals; I have one other remote head, also made by IMS. The machine has a 10MB Rodime hard drive, still working, a single DSDD floppy (although there is room for another), a master Z80 CPU, a 64KB parity checked DRAM card, and two MPUs. An MPU is a card containing a slave Z80 processor with its own 64KB parity checked DRAM and serial ports, etc. Although I have the docs showing the gross functionality, I have no schematics for any of this. First I rebuilt disk images from Fritz Chwolka's webpage for the IMS 5000, but for whatever reason I couldn't boot these disks. IMS made more than one configuration of this machine, so it wasn't entirely unexpected. Next I tried a hardware approach. The hard disk controller has a 1KB SRAM buffer for holding an inbound or outbound sector. Programmed IN/OUT transfers fill or drain the buffer, not DMA. First I verified that the address lines on the RAM were wired in conventional order by seeing what pins they were wired to on the 74LS193s forming the address counter. The data pin order was more of a question, but I assumed since the address lines were connected in consecutive order, so the data pins would be too. I hooked up a logic analyzer to the RAMs, booted the system, and waited for the password prompt. I typed some gibberish and hit return, and the logic analyzer captured the writes to the RAM. I realized the first read or maybe first few would be reading directory entries to find the USERID.SYS file, which is a plain text file containing the login names, passwords, cp/m user area, and privilege level. However, no matter what I did, the data didn't make sense. I thought perhaps I messed up the order of the data pins, so I buzzed out which chip drove the DOn (data out) S100 pins. Again, I did the login thing, assuming that any time this sector buffer ram was being read that the data would be appearing on the S100 bus. Apparently not so. So I switched gears. I shuffled cards around to make space and connected the logic analyzer to the Z80 and set a trigger for I/O port operations, triggering on the first IN from the port corresponding to the sector buffer. Pay dirt. I quickly got the list of users and passwords, and tried them and they worked. After disconnecting the logic analyzer, I captured the contents of the various EPROMs, then called it a night. Bitsavers and Fritz Chwolka both have interesting web pages, so I won't attempt to duplicate any of that, but I will be taking some pictures, posting the HEX files for the EPROMS and making links to the other IMS 5000 resources on the web. From wizard at voyager.net Sun Apr 22 09:30:12 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:30:12 -0400 Subject: 8-bit (S100) question In-Reply-To: <000001c78487$2113ddf0$0a6fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c78487$2113ddf0$0a6fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <1177252213.4712.192.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2007-04-21 at 21:37 -0500, Jack Rubin wrote: > I'm building up a demo S100 system for VCF. I'm considering using a > modern switching power supply for regulated power and abandoning the > onboard voltage regulators on each card. I know the last CompuPro boxes > took this route so it must be feasible. What is the general > wisdom/experience with this approach? It should work just fine, assuming you have a switching supply with a sufficient output. I suppose you could put an inductor coil in series to block any switching frequency current that bleeds into the supply... but, I really don't think that is necessary if you are operating the switching supply within its limits. A great deal depends upon the cards you are using. When I set up my IMSAI at the club, I borrowed quite a few 4K RAM cards from other members, just to have a computer with the "whole" 64 K, minus 4K for the VDM-1 video (1K) my version of a monitor & BIOS ROM routines (2K) plus 1K of scratch RAM for the monitor, which included a memory test. That was 15 4K static memory cards, plus everything else. Yikes. It was drawing just over 32 amps from the IMSAI +5 volt supply, which I think was rated at 30 amps. Someone I know, out of curiosity, actually arc-welded with the IMSAI supply. If you do NOT have 60K of 2102 chips, you will probably be drawing a lot less current. It would be good to know just how much your system will be drawing, and over-do it somewhat. That was always my theory... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Apr 22 09:42:25 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:42:25 -0700 Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked In-Reply-To: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> References: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200704220742.25361.lbickley@bickleywest.com> [Sorry for the "top post"...] Great sleuthing Jim - and a very informative writeup!!! Thanks. Lyle On Sunday 22 April 2007 07:27, Jim Battle wrote: > I've had an IMS 5000 system for about a year; I got it off ebay for a > song ($35), but as I didn't know any login name and corresponding > password, it has been a brick. I've thought of a couple ways to break > the security, which isn't all that secure, but didn't due to lack of > time. Finally I made time last night. > > The machine specifically is an IMS 5000 IS. It is a very well built > late model S-100 system, aimed at professional applications. This one > came from a dentists office. The main unit contains a 12" CRT, an > intelligent terminal control board (8085 based) which is connected via > an internal serial port to a Z80 CPU card in the main S-100 chassis. > This is a turbodos system, meaning it is a multiprocessing Z80 system. > Serial ports on the back of the machine can connect to remote terminals; > I have one other remote head, also made by IMS. > > The machine has a 10MB Rodime hard drive, still working, a single DSDD > floppy (although there is room for another), a master Z80 CPU, a 64KB > parity checked DRAM card, and two MPUs. An MPU is a card containing a > slave Z80 processor with its own 64KB parity checked DRAM and serial > ports, etc. > > Although I have the docs showing the gross functionality, I have no > schematics for any of this. > > First I rebuilt disk images from Fritz Chwolka's webpage for the IMS > 5000, but for whatever reason I couldn't boot these disks. IMS made > more than one configuration of this machine, so it wasn't entirely > unexpected. Next I tried a hardware approach. > > The hard disk controller has a 1KB SRAM buffer for holding an inbound or > outbound sector. Programmed IN/OUT transfers fill or drain the buffer, > not DMA. First I verified that the address lines on the RAM were wired > in conventional order by seeing what pins they were wired to on the > 74LS193s forming the address counter. The data pin order was more of a > question, but I assumed since the address lines were connected in > consecutive order, so the data pins would be too. I hooked up a logic > analyzer to the RAMs, booted the system, and waited for the password > prompt. I typed some gibberish and hit return, and the logic analyzer > captured the writes to the RAM. I realized the first read or maybe > first few would be reading directory entries to find the USERID.SYS > file, which is a plain text file containing the login names, passwords, > cp/m user area, and privilege level. However, no matter what I did, the > data didn't make sense. > > I thought perhaps I messed up the order of the data pins, so I buzzed > out which chip drove the DOn (data out) S100 pins. Again, I did the > login thing, assuming that any time this sector buffer ram was being > read that the data would be appearing on the S100 bus. Apparently not so. > > So I switched gears. I shuffled cards around to make space and > connected the logic analyzer to the Z80 and set a trigger for I/O port > operations, triggering on the first IN from the port corresponding to > the sector buffer. Pay dirt. I quickly got the list of users and > passwords, and tried them and they worked. > > After disconnecting the logic analyzer, I captured the contents of the > various EPROMs, then called it a night. Bitsavers and Fritz Chwolka > both have interesting web pages, so I won't attempt to duplicate any of > that, but I will be taking some pictures, posting the HEX files for the > EPROMS and making links to the other IMS 5000 resources on the web. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 22 10:23:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <462A60C0.14237.13A4F6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Apr 2007 at 16:06, Chris M wrote: > > > Just a dopey question that is kinda sorta related > to > > this topic. I realize that painting a picture on a > > tube consists of more then just turning bits on or > off > > in video memory (port calls and stuff), but in > just > > attempting to circumvent that portion of video > > incompatiblity in software, is it practical, or > > totally feasible in all cases, for a software to > remap > > every reference to memory locations? Ultimately > what > > I'm asking I guess is if there are software > constructs > > that make certain attempts ambiguous or even > impossible. > > Now I feel like the dopey one... I don't understand > what you're > asking. Care to restate it for us thick-as-a-brick > folks? :-) Many pseudo-compatibles suffer from video incompatibilities, as we all know. Now this is due to more then just differences in where the video memory resides in the memory map, but a certain Tandy 2000 newsletter suggested back in the dark ages that perhaps to alleviate this problem (and again the problem is bigger than that) someone could write a program to alter the object code of peecee compatible programs (that wouldn't run on the T2K) so that it would reference the T2K's video memory instead of the IBM PC's. My question is therefore is this practical or even feasible? My guess is it's possible, but some code could be so convoluted that it would be extremely difficult. In essence the software would need enough intelligence to reverse engineer another bunch of code. Could it be done totally by automation... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 10:50:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:50:00 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com>, <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <462B21B8.11578.42C16AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 1:44, Jim Leonard wrote: > I wonder how many of the PC-compatible-yet-goofy-hardware 808x clones > have been lost to the ages. I still own my AT&T PC 6300, proprietary > 640x400 (not a typo) monitor and all, and consider it just barely > compatible enough to hold onto. (I have pretty high standards; I can > count the number of apps/games that will never run on it on both hands). The Stearns was crippled by the fact that it used its own 16-bit bus and cards (I think it had a single "works most of the time" 8-bit ISA slot) It was boosted by some of the CDC and ETA contingent because it was made in Minnesota. One other fairly popular "nearly compatible" that I recall is the Mitsubishi PC. Like the Convergent-designed 6300 It was a headache for a lot of applications. Not really inferior to the 5150, but different enough to be frustrating. IIRC, the AT&T box was promoted pretty aggressively by the Sears retail computer store operation. I remember dropping in at a nearby store and asking about IBM gear and being told "We can order it for you, but wouldn't you really like to buy an AT&T 6300?" > ...while Sorcim's SuperWriter word processor -- a fairly creampuff > app -- would lock the machine up. If memory serves, Superwriter was not initially developed within Sorcim. Most of Sorcim's internal effort concentrated on SuperCalc and was probably the sole reason that CA acquired the company--after the sale, most of the principals went their own way, with the exception of Martin Herbach, who stayed on mostly as the repository of SC knowledge. Building the product was a nightmare, involving separate steps done on a VAX 11/730, a Compupro 85/88-equipped box and a 5150. There was a substantial hunk of x80 code that had to be automatically translated, as well as pieces of code in Pascal/MT and x86 assembly. SC was a real patchwork--Marty was one of the very few people who knew how to build it from scratch. I've still got a never-used copy of SuperWriter--I refused to use it, preferring to use their converter from WordStar. WYKIWYL--"what you know is what you like". There was also SuperProject, project- tracking software, which I never bothered to use. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 22 10:52:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:52:50 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <8169F84E-8F1D-49CC-8EAB-F7657518285C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:38 AM, Ensor wrote: >>BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" disc pack >>for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; rather it had a >>basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? > > I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running unmodified >CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be remapped...is this >correct? > > -Dave > Hi Dave Most any machine can be setup to shadow the ROM. On a different machine, I wrote a few lines of code that would simply read and then write ROM data. I set it up so that writes would go to RAM that on boot were shadowed behind the ROM. After the ROM had been copied, the code was still running from ROM. I had a 7474 that would switch the enables on the ROM and RAM when it saw the first I/O operation. In your case, you'll either need to write separate I/O code for CP/M or rige some way such that on each I/O action of the CP/M, you switched the ROM back into memory. This should work so long as you don't expect to buffer the I/O data where to ROM was. Both are relatively simple to do. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 10:59:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:59:14 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462A60C0.14237.13A4F6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462B23E2.6125.4348928@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 8:23, Chris M wrote: My question is therefore is this practical > or even feasible? My guess is it's possible, but some > code could be so convoluted that it would be extremely > difficult. In essence the software would need enough > intelligence to reverse engineer another bunch of > code. Could it be done totally by automation... I suppose it all depends if you're talking about text or graphics. Text is pretty simple, but graphics bit- and port-level compatibility is a different matter. Still, it's possible to search an app for video display buffer segment loads and alter them. Recall that many apps would work on both MDA/MGA and CGA and so altered which addess that was used on the fly. Note that apps that used CGA 80x25 text may not work without more probing as a "stall" waiting for the retrace interval to avoid snow in the display was very commonly used and may well cause your application to hang without modification. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 22 11:09:21 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked In-Reply-To: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> from Jim Battle at "Apr 22, 7 09:27:14 am" Message-ID: <200704221609.l3MG9Lmj012578@floodgap.com> > I've had an IMS 5000 system for about a year; I got it off ebay for a > song ($35), but as I didn't know any login name and corresponding > password, it has been a brick. I've thought of a couple ways to break > the security, which isn't all that secure, but didn't due to lack of > time. Finally I made time last night. Fascinating! Seriously, that's a really clever way to go about it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't have a spasm. -- Nabiki, "Ranma 1/2" --------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 22 11:10:04 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More 8-bit threads (was: Lack of 8-bit threads) In-Reply-To: <001c01c784e5$93b86160$6500a8c0@BILLING> from Jay West at "Apr 22, 7 08:53:09 am" Message-ID: <200704221610.l3MGA4CY012602@floodgap.com> > > On-topic maybe, but "gaining approval from the DEC glass tower" is a > > completely different thing :-) > I have never, ever, ever seen someone complain about a post because it was > non-dec. > Are you saying that because some here talk about dec stuff that it magically > makes everyone too intimidated about posting about non-dec stuff? Never stopped me yet. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If your troubles are deep seated and of long-standing, try kneeling. ------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 22 11:08:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:08:30 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com>, <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <77285924-0245-44F4-A489-1E1398954895@neurotica.com> On Apr 22, 2007, at 2:44 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I wonder how many of the PC-compatible-yet-goofy-hardware 808x > clones have been lost to the ages. I still own my AT&T PC 6300, > proprietary 640x400 (not a typo) monitor and all, and consider it > just barely compatible enough to hold onto. (I have pretty high > standards; I can count the number of apps/games that will never run > on it on both hands). Then again, who am I kidding; it was the > first PC that our family personally owned (father was AT&T > employee) so I'd probably try to keep it going no matter what. I sold and serviced 6300s (and 7300s, and a few non-AT&T machines) at my first job. I really liked those 6300s. They were built by Olivetti, who did a great job on them...they were built like tanks! This was around 1985 or so. The computer store I worked for had an interesting deal going. We were a small independent computer store in a mall, but we had a corporate sales group which did pretty good business. We had an odd deal going in which we were selling AT&T computers to...AT&T. :-) We delivered dozens upon dozens of 6300s to the AT&T Basking Ridge facility in NJ, which we affectionately knew as "Taj Mahal"...that building is HUGE. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 22 11:28:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:28:40 -0500 Subject: Available FOC Winman 4x4 EISA MIDI I/Face. References: Message-ID: <003201c784fb$4c4d71b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Austin wrote... > One ?sort of on-topic? item that seemed too good to throw away is a > MIDIman > Winman 4x4 MIDI interface on an EISA card. > > Pictured here (warning 4MP image): > > http://ozpass.co.uk/files/Winman-4X4.jpg It's been a while since I had my head inside a PC machine, but isn't that just a 16 bit ISA card? Not EISA? In any case, the Winman 4x4/S card is awesome. I had one in active use for many years. The ONLY reason I got rid of it was because I could no longer find reasonable machines with ISA slots that would also run the modern audio recording and midi software I wanted. I wound up going with one of the new midiman 8x8/s USB patchbay external rackmount units. Jay From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Apr 22 11:35:22 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:35:22 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <77285924-0245-44F4-A489-1E1398954895@neurotica.com> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com> <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> <77285924-0245-44F4-A489-1E1398954895@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7B87860C-0112-1000-A3DD-D40B2EF7B6D2-Webmail-10024@mac.com> > > I sold and serviced 6300s (and 7300s, and a few non-AT&T machines) >at my first job. I really liked those 6300s. They were built by >Olivetti, who did a great job on them...they were built like tanks! > Xerox also sold these although i cant remember their model no. But they ran GEM and Ventura DTP very well (although slowly) on the hires screen. roger From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Apr 22 11:42:01 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:42:01 -0400 Subject: 8-bit (S100) question In-Reply-To: <1177252213.4712.192.camel@linux.site> References: <000001c78487$2113ddf0$0a6fa8c0@obie> <1177252213.4712.192.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <462B9059.8030402@comcast.net> Either option is useful, both options are still currently used and practical in the industry. I've worked at different companies where the philosophy is totally opposite. It all depends on the component selection, from the power supply , everything in between, size of the circuit card, to the backplane. There are non-standard systems which are migrating to the central power supply design (and using standard backplanes or edge connectors), but there is usually a small DC-DC converter onboard dedicated for low voltages. Then with newer components(ex: new static rams) , they draw less power, circuit cards with power/ground layers have more power and thermal capacity(power density) . I recall the S-100 cards I used back then were at most only 2 layers, so the power and thermal characteristics were limited as compared to say the VME cards. I think the S-100 breadboards that are still available are only 2 layers. In the local power supply option, we had DC-DC converters which have such a low footprint where we embedded this on the circuit card(24"x24") and the power supplies (via backplane) would have power rails supply 48V to every card. In a central power systems, we had circuit cards just as large and all the power supplies just sit at the bottom of the 19" rack and supply the backplane with various voltages, with thick, huge cables. The backplane is important such that you don't want to experience too much impedance or resistance (thicker copper is better), solid power and ground layers is expected. You might want to use an off-the-shelf backplane for this purpose--there might be limited availability of S-100 backplanes with these features.The commodity backplanes in use today still have a central power supply, such as CPCI, with many layers. The most they would have onboard is another little DC-DC converter for low voltage components(3.3v or 2.5v). With the traditional S-100 backplane and a central power supply you might experience less power capacity. But this can be compensated by using newer components to reduce the power consumption. You can build either type of system so long as you determine the maximum power capacity per slot.. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Sat, 2007-04-21 at 21:37 -0500, Jack Rubin wrote: > > > >> I'm building up a demo S100 system for VCF. I'm considering using a >> modern switching power supply for regulated power and abandoning the >> onboard voltage regulators on each card. I know the last CompuPro boxes >> took this route so it must be feasible. What is the general >> wisdom/experience with this approach? >> > > > It should work just fine, assuming you have a switching supply with > a sufficient output. I suppose you could put an inductor coil in series > to block any switching frequency current that bleeds into the supply... > but, I really don't think that is necessary if you are operating the > switching supply within its limits. > > A great deal depends upon the cards you are using. When I set up my > IMSAI at the club, I borrowed quite a few 4K RAM cards from other > members, just to have a computer with the "whole" 64 K, minus 4K for the > VDM-1 video (1K) my version of a monitor & BIOS ROM routines (2K) plus > 1K of scratch RAM for the monitor, which included a memory test. That > was 15 4K static memory cards, plus everything else. Yikes. It was > drawing just over 32 amps from the IMSAI +5 volt supply, which I think > was rated at 30 amps. Someone I know, out of curiosity, actually > arc-welded with the IMSAI supply. > > If you do NOT have 60K of 2102 chips, you will probably be drawing a > lot less current. It would be good to know just how much your system > will be drawing, and over-do it somewhat. That was always my theory... > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > > > From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sun Apr 22 12:10:38 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:10:38 +0100 Subject: Available FOC Winman 4x4 EISA MIDI I/Face. [Corrected] In-Reply-To: <003201c784fb$4c4d71b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 22/4/07 17:28, "Jay West" wrote: > It's been a while since I had my head inside a PC machine, but isn't that > just a 16 bit ISA card? Not EISA? > > In any case, the Winman 4x4/S card is awesome. I had one in active use for > many years. The ONLY reason I got rid of it was because I could no longer > find reasonable machines with ISA slots that would also run the modern audio > recording and midi software I wanted. I wound up going with one of the new > midiman 8x8/s USB patchbay external rackmount units. > > Jay You're quite right! Must be all the dust affecting my brain.... It was a great piece of kit for as long as it was used. I went straight from running Cubase on my Atari 1040STE to a (then) all-singing all-dancing VST setup - 333Mhz Pentium II, 256MB RAM, 8GB HDD.... Quite a step-up in functionality. Worth mentioning though that the PC hit the dumpster long ago whilst that STE is still a prized possession! This can stand as a correction to my original offering... Not too many people needing MIDI on their '93-era servers! ;-) -Austin. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 22 12:13:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <462B23E2.6125.4348928@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <913226.81916.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Apr 2007 at 8:23, Chris M wrote: > > My question is therefore is this practical > > or even feasible? My guess is it's possible, but > some > > code could be so convoluted that it would be > extremely > > difficult. In essence the software would need > enough > > intelligence to reverse engineer another bunch of > > code. Could it be done totally by automation... > > I suppose it all depends if you're talking about > text or graphics. Ooh I shoulda said graphics. They're prettier to look at then text :) > Text is pretty simple, but graphics bit- and > port-level compatibility > is a different matter. I deliberately left out the port stuff. Hey one thing at a time! > Still, it's possible to > search an app for > video display buffer segment loads and alter them. > Recall that many > apps would work on both MDA/MGA and CGA and so > altered which addess > that was used on the fly. Right. But that's assuming simplistic coding/logic. What if it got real real hard? > Note that apps that used > CGA 80x25 text > may not work without more probing as a "stall" > waiting for the > retrace interval to avoid snow in the display was > very commonly used > and may well cause your application to hang without > modification. I haven't looked at such code in a loong time. Actually I probably never looked at it much at all. So for arguements sake, would it be possible to remove all that stuff to alleviate problems running that stuff on a MDA? > Cheers, > Chuck > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 22 12:53:57 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:53:57 -0500 Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked In-Reply-To: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> References: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <462BA135.1000101@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > I've had an IMS 5000 system for about a year; I got it off ebay for a > song ($35), but as I didn't know any login name and corresponding > password, it has been a brick. I've thought of a couple ways to break > the security, which isn't all that secure, but didn't due to lack of > time. Finally I made time last night. I forgot to mention a couple points. First, the turbodos password system is weak for a couple reasons. One, the password file is stored as plaintext. Second, when you attempt to log in, it asks for login name, and if it isn't in the list, rejects it before asking for the password. Thus rather than having to guess a combination of (user, password), on only has to guess them sequentially. Still, CP/M didn't have any type of protection, so it was an improvement. A given login was marked as either having privilege or not, and also the user number associated with that user. When a successful login and password were entered, the user # (turbodos has users 0-31, not just 0-15 like CP/M) associated with the account establishes where your directory is set to. The privileged accounts get to "USER n" to go anywhere they want to, but the other accounts can't use USER to change. Anyway, the final password file was: (login, password, user#, privilege flag) SYSTEM,SYSTEM,0,P USER1,USER1,1, USER2,USER2,2, USER3,USER3,3, DEN,,, USER4,USER4,4, WATER,WATER,6, I don't think I would have guessed any of them, except maybe SYSTEM. When I first got the machine I had tried about 50 names that came to the top of my head. Having looked around at the disk, user 0 has all the utilities. User 3, DEN (short for dentist, I'm sure) had some bookkeeping files and apps. User 31 is used by turbodos to hold some other utility files, including the password file. Other than that, there is nothing on the disk. There isn't any source code, games, or anything interesting at all. Having just installed Turbodos on a NS Horizon 8/16 box, it is interesting to note that this turbodos system is different, even though both are turbodos 1.3. I'll need more time to explore, but this machine seems to have a more limited set of utility applications available. From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Apr 22 13:41:57 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Chris M wrote: > Many pseudo-compatibles suffer from video > incompatibilities, as we all know... > IBM PC's. My question is therefore is this practical > or even feasible? My guess is it's possible, but some > code could be so convoluted that it would be extremely > difficult. In essence the software would need enough > intelligence to reverse engineer another bunch of > code. > Could it be done totally by automation... You could take the approach of the Atari Portfolio. Provide some RAM at the expected video memory address for the application to fiddle with. Then periodically scan that RAM and copy whatever is there to the screen. No, it didn't work terribly well with the Portfolio, but it did help a bit. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 22 14:04:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <34625.10837.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Roger Ivie wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Many pseudo-compatibles suffer from video > > incompatibilities, as we all know... > > IBM PC's. My question is therefore is this > practical > > or even feasible? My guess is it's possible, but > some > > code could be so convoluted that it would be > extremely > > difficult. In essence the software would need > enough > > intelligence to reverse engineer another bunch of > > code. > > Could it be done totally by automation... > > You could take the approach of the Atari Portfolio. > Provide some RAM > at the expected video memory address for the > application to fiddle > with. Then periodically scan that RAM and copy > whatever is there > to the screen. > > No, it didn't work terribly well with the Portfolio, > but it did > help a bit. > -- > roger ivie > rivie at ridgenet.net > The IBM Peanut used some *undoubtedly twisted* logic to in effect map calls intended for CGA memory into uh IIRC part of the Jr's dynamic ram space (didn't have dedicated video mem, again IIRC). And again IIRC, that portion of the dynamic ram's space that was in effect video ram was relocatable. I think anyhoo. Ask Mikey Brutman. He knows all about the Peanut. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's enshrined somewhere in his house. Like a pagan idol LOL LOL LOL. omg. O man. Ain't I just sick. But truthfully I have alot of respect for the ol' Peanut. Despite it being something of a dud back in the day. Like I could talk w/what I bought :( __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 14:14:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:14:50 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: References: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <462B51BA.19853.4E7A113@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 11:41, Roger Ivie wrote: > You could take the approach of the Atari Portfolio. Provide some RAM > at the expected video memory address for the application to fiddle > with. Then periodically scan that RAM and copy whatever is there > to the screen. I was involved in a similar project that took some DRAM and a Z80 with a DART and put it on an ISA card to take the place of an MDA. The Z80 periodically scanned the buffer and generated updates to be sent to a VT-220 compatible terminal. The board had enough smarts to even do split-screen on the VT220, with a second mainframe connection occupying the top window and the MDA display occupying the bottom. It worked okay with text, but graphics was beyond its limits. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 14:19:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:19:15 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <913226.81916.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462B23E2.6125.4348928@cclist.sydex.com>, <913226.81916.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462B52C3.2959.4EBAE77@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 10:13, Chris M wrote: > Right. But that's assuming simplistic coding/logic. > What if it got real real hard? Like what? CGA graphics starts at C800:0. The first thing that I'd do is search the executable for 00 C8 and see what referenced it. Be aware that many early PC games used some pretty involved copy protection, which might get in the way of brute-force hacking. Otherwise, I'd just set up a TSR to examine some conventional DRAM at C800 and update the 2000 display accordingly. You might even fabricate a card that interrupts after an access to the screen buffer, latching the address and data. All sorts of possibilities. None of them really wonderful, but workable. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Apr 22 15:46:06 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:46:06 -0600 Subject: The 640k "barrier" In-Reply-To: <34625.10837.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <34625.10837.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462BC98E.7030407@brutman.com> I have my PCjr shrine. The cyberspace one is at http://www.brutman.com/PCjr Most of you already know that the PCjr didn't have dedicated video RAM. The video RAM was shared with the 128K of memory on the motherboard, and there was some logic to arbitrate between the CPU and the video circuitry. The video circuitry always won, so a normal PCjr with just 128K (the original design limit) was effectively half the speed of a PC 5150, even though they had the same CPU running at the same clock speed. (The memory was not dual ported.) IBM called the video logic the 'Video Gate Array', and often abbreviated it as VGA. So when I tell people that my PCjr has a VGA, I am technically not lying. The standard PCjr has only 64K of RAM, soldered to the motherboard. Certain video modes (the enhancements to CGA) were not available unless you had a 128K machine, where the extra memory went to a dedicated slot. I believe the video circuitry treated the memory as two banks, so the extra 64K really was necessary for the enhanced modes, not for storage but for memory bandwidth. The VGA took memory references in the B8000 to BFFFF and remapped them to whatever 16K 'bank' of memory was selected in the first 128K to be the real video memory. The bank was very flexible to configure; a stock PCjr would put it at the high end of memory (112 - 128K) and grow it downwards as needed. A device driver could relocate it. And when you did add extra memory to a PCjr and wanted it usable by DOS, you absolutely needed the device driver. The #1 flaw on the PCjr (in my humble opinion) was making the assumption that memory was capped at 128K, and having the machine put the video memory at the top of memory. This required a device driver to fix things up if you had more memory. If they had designed the video memory to be shared at the top of installed memory and not assumed that 128K was the maximum, the machine would be far more usable. I think the Tandy 1000 series did it correctly. (A BIOS oddity - for a machine with a supposed 128K limit, the BIOS knows how to count to 640K.) Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 22 14:48:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <462B52C3.2959.4EBAE77@cclist.sydex.com> References: <462B23E2.6125.4348928@cclist.sydex.com>, <913226.81916.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <462B52C3.2959.4EBAE77@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070422124052.C88007@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Like what? CGA graphics starts at C800:0. The first thing that I'd > do is search the executable for 00 C8 and see what referenced it. Be > aware that many early PC games used some pretty involved copy > protection, which might get in the way of brute-force hacking. > Otherwise, I'd just set up a TSR to examine some conventional DRAM at > C800 and update the 2000 display accordingly. You might even > fabricate a card that interrupts after an access to the screen > buffer, latching the address and data. I think that you'd want to map your graphics emulator from B800. Save C800 for hard disk emulators. Writing PC emulators for incompatibles is certainly possible, but, is it worth the effort. Do a thorough plan of what you want to do with it. There may be easier ways. For example, it was trivial to patch PC-Write to work with the non-standard text video of the Toshiba T300. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Apr 22 15:36:57 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <913226.81916.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <913226.81916.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704222042.QAA21456@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Still, it's possible to search an app for video display buffer >> segment loads and alter them. Recall that many apps would work on >> both MDA/MGA and CGA and so altered which addess that was used on >> the fly. > Right. But that's assuming simplistic coding/logic. > What if it got real real hard? Then it's "impossible". Consider hackery that executes the same byte stream twice, one byte out of sync. Or constructs the address to access video memory at run time. Or constructs the instruction sequence to do so at run time. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 22 15:48:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <20070422124052.C88007@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <649753.98311.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Like what? CGA graphics starts at C800:0. The > first thing that I'd > > do is search the executable for 00 C8 and see what > referenced it. Be > > aware that many early PC games used some pretty > involved copy > > protection, which might get in the way of > brute-force hacking. > > Otherwise, I'd just set up a TSR to examine some > conventional DRAM at > > C800 and update the 2000 display accordingly. You > might even > > fabricate a card that interrupts after an access > to the screen > > buffer, latching the address and data. > > I think that you'd want to map your graphics > emulator from B800. > > Save C800 for hard disk emulators. > > > Writing PC emulators for incompatibles is certainly > possible, but, > is it worth the effort. It was really just a question. No, probably not worth the effort. Some time ago I was in contact with a developer type dude who had been working on a software/hardware thing that he claimed would make the T2K totally IBM compatible. I posted it here to the group, but no one bit :(. If I can dig it out, I'll post it again :). It involved spying on, uh, I don't remember, but something not too different from what Bunnie Huang described in "Hacking the X-box" from what I recall. Involved some relatively simple hardware mod, but a fair amount of software mods. Ahem altered the bios code. How did he expect to pull that off legally??? I asked him if it would be easier to graft a vga card onto a T2K somehow, and alleviate alot of the incompatiblity. He said no, but I think he was wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 15:51:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:51:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Apr 21, 7 08:43:50 pm Message-ID: I've never worked on a KY11, but I might have to one day... And I've got a minimal 8008 data sheet in front of me. > I looked at the docs and schematics and followed the wise words on page 8-2 > titles "M7859 FAILURES" > > I have +5 and -9 on the 8008 as well as clock(s). But the "INTR" line > (pin 18) is stuck high. I assume this is the problem. > > [aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward and got the display to > show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found > that interesting] > > STOP L and TS1 L are inactive, as are all the S0,S1 & S2 on the 8008. > Interestingly ping 14 is wiggling. I don't have a databook with with > an 8008 in it and that pin is not labeled. Pin 14 is 'Sync' 'It indicates the begining of a machine cycle" What is 'ready' -- pin 17 -- doing? Alas my data sheet, which is really only an introduction, doesn't give what the Sn lines should be doing. Are yours all stuck in the same state, if so what state? Now, Intr -- pin 18 -- is active high, and an input. If it's stuck high, that might be confusing thigs. What drives it, and why is it high? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 15:30:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:30:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 21, 7 11:30:04 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I recall in 1983 how difficult it was to even *order* a 220V 50Hz > > 5150 from IBM. The IBM sales office people just shrugged their > > If the entire system was designed around the NTSC frequency (and one > would assume the 60Hz AC power to match) then how did a "euro" IBM PC > work? Did it have 60Hz CGA as well? Nothing in the PC depends on the mains line frequency. All the outputs from the PSU are DC, there's not even a mains-frequency heartbeat signal. All the timing comes from crystal oscillators (one on the motherboard, maybe on the expansion cards too). A European PC with a CGA card will output 60Hz NTSC video. Europ[ean TVs in general won't display that (wel, modern ones probably do, but 25 years ago they didn't), but the 5153 monitor (IBM CGA monitor) doesn't depend on mains frequency either, and will work find on 50Hz mains of the appropriate voltage -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 15:45:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:45:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 7 11:20:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 21 Apr 2007 at 23:30, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > If the entire system was designed around the NTSC frequency (and one > > would assume the 60Hz AC power to match) then how did a "euro" IBM PC > > work? Did it have 60Hz CGA as well? > > I believe so, unless there was a very different CGA card for Europe. > If there was, the Tech Ref is completely silent on the subject. There wasn't. I'm in Europe (and have 50Hz mains), I also have an IBM CGA card. It's just like the one in the Techref, it takes all the timing from the 14.xxx MHz oscillator on the mainboard. > > BTW, when we asked if the 5150 could simply be run from a 220V-120V > 50Hz stepdown transformer the answer came back quite emphatically: > "No, you cannot--and if you try, it will void the warranty." I I can't comemnt on the second part, but for the first part I will say that whoever told you that was a total idiot. Period... There were, I admit, several types of PSU used in the 5150 (and related machines), and they were made by various companies. The schematics aren't in the Techrefs, but I've been inside a fair frw of them and _not one_ would ogject to 50Hz mains of the appropriate voltage. Most of them do insist on AC, since they have a little mains-frequency transformer to provide the startup supply to the SMPSU, but that would work find on 50Hz mains. The 5105 Techref _does_ imply that the 115V PSU is for 60Hz mains and the 230V one for 50Hz mains, but I can see no good reason why that would be the case. The 5160 Techref contains the IMHO meaninless spec of '50/60Hz +/- 3Hz' The 5155 (Portable PC) PSU is electrically similar to the supplies I've found in PCs and XTs, and was user-selectable (slide switch on the back) betweem 115V and 230V mains, and needless to say it works fine on 50 or 60Hxz. The other system PSUs that I've seen (and remember I've only seen supplies used in 230V machins) have intneral lings, in general 'fitted for 115V, cut for 230V' to set the voltage. > pressed the sales people for specifics and they said something about > "the power supply won't allow it". AFAIK, the only line-frequency > dependent part in the PSU was the AC fan--and 50Hz probably wouldn't > have made a difference. Actuaally, all the fans I've seen have been 12V DC ones, oftne run off the -12V rail -tony From rcini at optonline.net Sun Apr 22 16:51:51 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:51:51 -0400 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC Message-ID: All: I just got a complete working Hawthorne Technologies 68000-based SBC. It?s a 5.25? form factor computer based on the 68000 CPU. It has two serial ports in addition to a floppy controller which is PC-compatible - it uses 360k diskettes and PC drives and the disks can be read-written on a PC. Among the disks provided was an editor, debugger, assembler, and Forth. What it doesn?t have (that I can see) is a C-compiler. Does anyone have this SBC with a C-compiler? BTW, I made disk images so if anyone needs them, I got ?em. TIA. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 22 17:21:08 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:21:08 -0700 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box Message-ID: <462BDFD4.6000705@msm.umr.edu> I wonder if anyone has the boot disk for this system? I have them buried and can't find them and need to boot the system for a project sooner than I'll find them. Thanks Jim From wizard at voyager.net Sun Apr 22 17:32:26 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:32:26 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> , <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com>, <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1177281147.4712.265.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2007-04-22 at 01:44 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > I wonder how many of the PC-compatible-yet-goofy-hardware 808x clones > have been lost to the ages. At the risk of starting a religious flame-war, my favorite of the not-quite-compatibles was the HP-150. Sleek, stylish, small, hard-shell diskettes, use of HPIB for disks and peripherals, and a touch screen. SEXY! > I still own my AT&T PC 6300, proprietary 640x400 (not a typo) monitor > and all, and consider it just barely compatible enough to hold onto. About that 6300... I was an independent consultant to the Oldsmobile division of General Motors for a year. I signed a contract about three days before they purchased EDS, which made me, immediately, the competition, so I didn't get the contract renewed.. One of my tasks was to evaluate computer usage (which included a LOT of 3270 Color Terminal access to the IBM mainframes for CAD/CAM, etc.) and suggest the most reasonable way to move forward. I did what I thought was a thorough study, and suggested maintaining a 3270-PC base, albeit NOT expanding them by buying stuff from IBM until it worked. EDS was doing a parallel study. Their idea was to go with AT&T 6300 machines, and put IRMA cards in them for 3270 connectivity (never mind that they weren't even in COLOR, let alone hi-res.) Since GM used various IBM packages for text modification and authoring, they suggested DisplayWrite... Three, I think, at that time. AT&T had been stuck with a literal boat-load of the 6300 PCs, which were going "stale," and they were quite anxious to sell them, and at a VERY cheap price. That was all that EDS heard. EDS charged some outrageous sum, I'm remembering $7 million. When the "verdict" came down, I sighed, as I was one of the folks who would have to support this mess. The first thing I did was go get one of all the above components from stores, and set it up... if one is going to support it, one should have one at hand. Imagine my surprise when DisplayWrite would not even run. Seven million for a study, and they didn't bother to even set it up. Sheesh. Anyway, I ended up talking to Mort Myerson, the V.P. of EDS within a few minutes, and I explained the situation to him. He said he would take care of it. In the meanwhile, I was using a debugger to try to find out what actual problem was causing the failure. It turns out that DisplayWrite checked the BIOS ROM, and if it did NOT find "IBM" it shut down. I figured we would get IBM to change the program... but, no. Within a couple of hours about five Bell Labs techs showed up asking for me, and got to work on the BIOS. I explained what I had found, and they verified it. They then re-assembled the BIOS with a nonsense trademark notice about IBM, and started cranking out copies of the new chip. DisplayWrite then found "IBM" in the BIOS, and was happy. > (I have pretty high standards; I can count the number of apps/games > that will never run on it on both hands). > Then again, who am I kidding; it was the first PC that our family > personally owned (father was AT&T employee) so I'd probably try to keep > it going no matter what. Yeah... I'm keeping my IMSAI for the same reason. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun Apr 22 15:13:35 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:13:35 +0200 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <462BC1EF.2090008@bluewin.ch> Anyone knows of websites discussing true junkbox CP/M systems ? The P112 might be nice, but my junkbox contains only the standard Z80... Jos Dreessen From john at guntersville.net Sun Apr 22 17:58:25 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:58:25 -0500 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box In-Reply-To: <462BDFD4.6000705@msm.umr.edu> References: <462BDFD4.6000705@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <462BE891.4030605@guntersville.net> jim wrote: > I wonder if anyone has the boot disk for this system? > > I have them buried and can't find them and need to boot > the system for a project sooner than I'll find them. > > Thanks > Jim > > . > If I can locate and dig enough stuff out of the pile I can make you a copy. How quick do you need it? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 22 18:11:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:11:20 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E76F2CB-7545-469D-98B6-F12F798774C1@neurotica.com> On Apr 22, 2007, at 11:52 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" >>> disc pack for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; >>> rather it had a basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? >> >> I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running >> unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be >> remapped...is this correct? > > Most any machine can be setup to shadow the ROM. On a different > machine, > I wrote a few lines of code that would simply read and then write > ROM data. I set it up so that writes would go to RAM that on boot were > shadowed behind the ROM. > After the ROM had been copied, the code was still running from ROM. > I had a 7474 that would switch the enables on the ROM and RAM > when it saw the first I/O operation. > In your case, you'll either need to write separate I/O code for CP/M > or rige some way such that on each I/O action of the CP/M, you > switched the ROM back into memory. This should work so long as you > don't > expect to buffer the I/O data where to ROM was. Both are relatively > simple to do. Uhhh...but what if the address lines aren't handled such that the lower address space isn't remappable? It's my impression that this sort of scheme isn't really all that common. I mean, sure it's easy to do (I did it on one of my SBCs) but I don't think many commercially-produced machines were done that way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 18:31:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:31:18 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: References: <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 7 11:20:48 pm, Message-ID: <462B8DD6.29725.5D26ED4@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 21:45, Tony Duell wrote: > Actuaally, all the fans I've seen have been 12V DC ones, oftne run off the > -12V rail The original 5150 PSU here in the USA used an AC fan. Very strange. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 18:37:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:37:23 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <20070422124052.C88007@shell.lmi.net> References: <462B23E2.6125.4348928@cclist.sydex.com>, <462B52C3.2959.4EBAE77@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070422124052.C88007@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <462B8F43.3030.5D7FE16@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 12:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that you'd want to map your graphics emulator from B800. > > Save C800 for hard disk emulators. Shrug--it's been so long since I've fooled with either, I've forgotten more than I've learned. The law of irreversible mental entropy. :-( > Writing PC emulators for incompatibles is certainly possible, but, > is it worth the effort. That's why Intel gave us the 386. Map anything to anything, so a T2000 emulation would certainly be possible. But why? Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 22 18:48:49 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:48:49 -0400 Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked In-Reply-To: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> References: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <462BF461.4090406@compsys.to> >Jim Battle wrote: > I've had an IMS 5000 system for about a year; I got it off ebay for a > song ($35), but as I didn't know any login name and corresponding > password, it has been a brick. I've thought of a couple ways to break > the security, which isn't all that secure, but didn't due to lack of > time. Finally I made time last night. > > [Snip] > > So I switched gears. I shuffled cards around to make space and > connected the logic analyzer to the Z80 and set a trigger for I/O port > operations, triggering on the first IN from the port corresponding to > the sector buffer. Pay dirt. I quickly got the list of users and > passwords, and tried them and they worked. > > After disconnecting the logic analyzer, I captured the contents of the > various EPROMs, then called it a night. Bitsavers and Fritz Chwolka > both have interesting web pages, so I won't attempt to duplicate any > of that, but I will be taking some pictures, posting the HEX files for > the EPROMS and making links to the other IMS 5000 resources on the web. Jerome Fine replies: Thank you for the information. It should be useful in another context to provide a clue as to how to proceed. For example, if a duplicate of the hard drive can be produced, then running under an emulator might be similar to hooking up a logic analyzer. This would be a software solution. Of course, having a duplicate of the hard drive would usually allow a user to run the same software and look at the various files, such as the one which contains the userid / passwords. On the other hand, I suspect that the actual clear text of the userid / passwords should never have been stored in a file in the first place. If that is what you described (based on what you specified above), that was a VERY serious error in the security of the system. Rather, an encrypted set of values should have been stored with an algorithm which does not allow a reverse of the values. Then when an actual userid / password is entered, the algorithm produces the encrypted values which are extremely difficult to produce and compares the encrypted values against the file values. Of course, that is not what you wanted, so you were able to find a solution. It shows what debugging at the hardware level can do when the right equipment is available. In short, don't ever rely on encrypted files on a system which also contains the code to decrypt the files or the private passwords required for the algorithm. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 22 18:50:09 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:50:09 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:51:57 BST." Message-ID: <200704222350.l3MNo9QI020053@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >Pin 14 is 'Sync' 'It indicates the begining of a machine cycle" > >What is 'ready' -- pin 17 -- doing? The state appears to be "wait". Intr (pin 18) is in fact low. The "rdy" signal (ping 17) is high. I discovered that if I ground the "rdy" signal (ping 17), then I see the state output change. I suspect the cpu is halting for some reason. I did try and capture the state of the Intr pin from power up and I'm not sure it ever went up (but I was in a hurry and not sure I actually had the scope in the right mode to capture it - edge detect, rising edge, 3v, but I'm not sure the time scale was correct). The 8008 has a bit of setup which is done and the logic counts 16 clocks before asserting Intr, sync'd with the clock, which is reset when it hits a certain cpu state. I'm not convinced this is working. I think the next step is to connect a logic analyzer to the data bus, sync and state pins. The nice thing is there are only 16 signals... If I can watch it fetch I can figure out why it is halting. The maint manual talks about using a delayed sweep to see how far it gets but I think a logic analyzer will get betters results faster. -brad From pechter at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 19:11:43 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:11:43 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: <200704222350.l3MNo9QI020053@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200704222350.l3MNo9QI020053@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Did anyone check ACLO or DCLO... On 4/22/07, Brad Parker wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Pin 14 is 'Sync' 'It indicates the begining of a machine cycle" > > > >What is 'ready' -- pin 17 -- doing? > > The state appears to be "wait". Intr (pin 18) is in fact low. > > The "rdy" signal (ping 17) is high. I discovered that if I ground the > "rdy" signal (ping 17), then I see the state output change. > > I suspect the cpu is halting for some reason. > > I did try and capture the state of the Intr pin from power up and I'm > not sure it ever went up (but I was in a hurry and not sure I actually > had the scope in the right mode to capture it - edge detect, rising > edge, 3v, but I'm not sure the time scale was correct). The 8008 has a > bit of setup which is done and the logic counts 16 clocks before > asserting Intr, sync'd with the clock, which is reset when it hits > a certain cpu state. I'm not convinced this is working. > > I think the next step is to connect a logic analyzer to the data bus, > sync and state pins. The nice thing is there are only 16 signals... > > If I can watch it fetch I can figure out why it is halting. > > The maint manual talks about using a delayed sweep to see how far it > gets but I think a logic analyzer will get betters results faster. > > -brad > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 22 19:16:43 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:16:43 -0600 Subject: old school security (was: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:48:49 -0400. <462BF461.4090406@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <462BF461.4090406 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > On the other hand, I suspect that the actual clear text of > the userid / passwords should never have been stored in a > file in the first place. If that is what you described (based > on what you specified above), that was a VERY serious error > in the security of the system. [...] Lots of systems made that error. For instance, RSTS/E stored the passwords in cleartext and you could list them out if you were a privileged (1,*) user. I discovered that when you submitted a batch job through the @ processor, it ran as user batch on account (1,2). So it wasn't too hard to submit a batch job that ran the ACCOUN program to list out the passwords. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 22 19:38:29 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:38:29 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:51:57 BST." Message-ID: <200704230038.l3N0cTJG021787@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >I've never worked on a KY11, but I might have to one day... And I've got >a minimal 8008 data sheet in front of me. Try this: http://www.8008chron.com/8008um.pdf -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 22 19:40:26 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:40:26 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:11:43 EDT." Message-ID: <200704230040.l3N0eQxu022530@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Bill Pechter" wrote: >Did anyone check ACLO or DCLO... DC LO L is high. I don't think AC LO is an input (but I may be wrong). -brad From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Apr 22 19:47:05 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:47:05 -0500 Subject: old school security (was: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070422193339.0e050488@localhost> In TSS/8, there was an IOT ("WHO") that would return the current user's username AND password in Rad50. It was simple to walk up to a terminal someone had stepped away from for a few seconds, deposit and few values from the command line, jump to it, examine the results, and walk away with the values for later decoding to alphanumeric (ascii) characters. The TSS/8 o/s at UWM (Milwaukee) was extensively rewritten, in part to close those gaps. I don't know if it was Dick Bartlein or Sam Milosevich or other folks (Al would probably know). They gave it real security, replacing the WHO IOT with (I think) a LOGIN IOT. They also made it refuse a login request unless you prefaced it with ^B. That character would always break through to the o/s even if a program was running, and prevented a form of trojan horse, wherein you could write a simple program that would simulate the login prompts, capture your username/password, stash it in a file, and silently log out. If you attempted a login with that sort of trojan running, the o/s would intercept the attempt, prevent the trojan from seeing any characters, and respond ?ALREADY LOGGED IN -t At 06:16 PM 4/22/2007 -0600, you wrote: >In article <462BF461.4090406 at compsys.to>, > "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > > > On the other hand, I suspect that the actual clear text of > > the userid / passwords should never have been stored in a > > file in the first place. If that is what you described (based > > on what you specified above), that was a VERY serious error > > in the security of the system. [...] > >Lots of systems made that error. For instance, RSTS/E stored the >passwords in cleartext and you could list them out if you were a >privileged (1,*) user. I discovered that when you submitted a batch >job through the @ processor, it ran as user batch on account (1,2). >So it wasn't too hard to submit a batch job that ran the ACCOUN >program to list out the passwords. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! ----- 784. [Kindness] Kind words do not cost much. Yet they accomplish much. --Blaise Pascal --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 22 20:21:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <462B8F43.3030.5D7FE16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <516886.89161.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's why Intel gave us the 386. Map anything to > anything, so a > T2000 emulation would certainly be possible. This is how I feel. Utilize virtual-8086 mode to alleviate alot of the dirty work. Anyone familiar enough with it? > But why? Sounds like groovy fun to me! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 22 20:31:09 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:31:09 -0300 Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked References: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <031001c78547$1f0ee2f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > consecutive order, so the data pins would be too. I hooked up a logic > analyzer to the RAMs, booted the system, and waited for the password > prompt. I typed some gibberish and hit return, and the logic analyzer > captured the writes to the RAM. I realized the first read or maybe > first few would be reading directory entries to find the USERID.SYS > file, which is a plain text file containing the login names, passwords, > cp/m user area, and privilege level. However, no matter what I did, the > data didn't make sense. What LA did you use, Jim? Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 22 21:40:22 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:40:22 -0500 Subject: IMS 5000 system password filed cracked In-Reply-To: <031001c78547$1f0ee2f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <462B70C2.6030904@pacbell.net> <031001c78547$1f0ee2f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <462C1C96.9010005@pacbell.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> consecutive order, so the data pins would be too. I hooked up a logic >> analyzer to the RAMs, booted the system, and waited for the password >> prompt. I typed some gibberish and hit return, and the logic analyzer >> captured the writes to the RAM. I realized the first read or maybe >> first few would be reading directory entries to find the USERID.SYS >> file, which is a plain text file containing the login names, >> passwords, cp/m user area, and privilege level. However, no matter >> what I did, the data didn't make sense. > > What LA did you use, Jim? > > Greetings from Brazil, > Alexandre > It is an HP1631D -- 1K deep trace memory, 25 MHz state, 100 MHz timing modes, two analog channels, no floppy, gpib I/O only. It works OK for as infrequently as I use it, but if I ever need to do any significant work with with a logic analyzer, I'm going to get something a bit more recent. Although I have five pods (of five) I have only four "wire sets", and most of those are missing a wire or two, so I can't use some of the channels. Not having an onboard floppy to save setup state is a pain too. Such logic analyzers go for $100 on ebay, and less if it doesn't have lead sets. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 22 21:53:49 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:53:49 -0700 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box In-Reply-To: <462BE891.4030605@guntersville.net> References: <462BDFD4.6000705@msm.umr.edu> <462BE891.4030605@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <462C1FBD.6030606@msm.umr.edu> John C. Ellingboe wrote: >jim wrote: > > >> >> >If I can locate and dig enough stuff out of the pile I can make >you a copy. How quick do you need it? > > I am going to try to boot it from a hard drive I have but if that fails I want to see if I can read some Computer Automation diskettes which I have current possesion of. I may not be able to use the box to read them, but data I have on them right now suggests I might. Any thoughts on the list as to how to archive the data? I know that Lars H. is going to do his thing, and owns them, but more ideas would be welcome. I think they are pretty vanilla system distribution diskettes, so hopefully CA had sense enough to use a "lower common denomentator" format, and not some exotic 1mb double sided double density format. The hardware we have suggests we have a single density 8" drive set, but I want to copy them sooner than I may be able to learn how to with the CA hardware. Since I don't own the hardware, I don't have final call on that anyway (owned by Lars, but in my temporary posession). I would not want to use a single system like this to try to copy the software anyway, just in case something was in the mood to burn up. Though the system came from a recently supported site, that site is no longer a viable place to get something repaired, so Lars' pile of hardware will soon be the best resource around, I suspect. I appreciate your effort to get me the diskettes for the Alspa. I can wait a bit at this point. I'll also let you know if any of the other parallel efforts to get the diskettes copied pays off too. This is just one avenue I can take, since I have a couple of working Alspa's. I just don't know if I put a boot on the corvus disk I dug up and whether it will boot or not. The whole pile was burried, and I foolishly didn't make sure a well labeled 8" disk got saved with the hardware, for this exact circumstance. All my 8" diskettes are in another state and not easily searchable right now. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 21:59:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:59:02 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <516886.89161.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462B8F43.3030.5D7FE16@cclist.sydex.com>, <516886.89161.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462BBE86.3468.6909B03@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 18:21, Chris M wrote: > This is how I feel. Utilize virtual-8086 mode to > alleviate alot of the dirty work. Anyone familiar > enough with it? It's a fair amount of work setting it up, but a good place to start is the Intel/McGraw Hill 80386 book. Cheers, Chuck From john at guntersville.net Sun Apr 22 22:45:08 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:45:08 -0500 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box In-Reply-To: <462C1FBD.6030606@msm.umr.edu> References: <462BDFD4.6000705@msm.umr.edu> <462BE891.4030605@guntersville.net> <462C1FBD.6030606@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <462C2BC4.3030403@guntersville.net> jim wrote: > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > >> jim wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> If I can locate and dig enough stuff out of the pile I can make >> you a copy. How quick do you need it? >> >> > I am going to try to boot it from a hard drive I have but if that fails > I want to see if I can read some Computer Automation diskettes > which I have current possesion of. I may not be able to use the > box to read them, but data I have on them right now suggests I > might. > > Any thoughts on the list as to how to archive the data? I know > that Lars H. is going to do his thing, and owns them, but more > ideas would be welcome. > > I think they are pretty vanilla system distribution diskettes, so > hopefully CA had sense enough to use a "lower common denomentator" > format, and not some exotic 1mb double sided double density > format. The hardware we have suggests we have a single > density 8" drive set, but I want to copy them sooner than I > may be able to learn how to with the CA hardware. > > Since I don't own the hardware, I don't have final call on > that anyway (owned by Lars, but in my temporary posession). > > I would not want to use a single system like this to try > to copy the software anyway, just in case something was > in the mood to burn up. Though the system came from > a recently supported site, that site is no longer a viable > place to get something repaired, so Lars' pile of hardware > will soon be the best resource around, I suspect. > > I appreciate your effort to get me the diskettes for the > Alspa. I can wait a bit at this point. I'll also let you know > if any of the other parallel efforts to get the diskettes > copied pays off too. This is just one avenue I can take, > since I have a couple of working Alspa's. I just don't > know if I put a boot on the corvus disk I dug up and > whether it will boot or not. The whole pile was burried, > and I foolishly didn't make sure a well labeled 8" disk > got saved with the hardware, for this exact circumstance. > > All my 8" diskettes are in another state and not easily > searchable right now. > > Jim > > . > I'll get the front end loader started on the pile since it may take a bit. I haven't used any of the Alspa systems in a while so I hope they still work properly. I take it that you need their standard dsdd 1.2M boot disk. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 22 21:52:46 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 03:52:46 +0100 Subject: AS/400 available for pickup (UK only) [Second call] Message-ID: <009601c7855c$da2a28f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> If anyone within striking distance of Birmingham (UK) wants an AS/400, I've got one which you can have for the cost of coming over and taking it away (strictly pick-up only, it's far too bulky to post). I believe it's a model 9404, with an expansion cabinet - each cabinet is similar in size to a DEC BA123 cabinet, IE not massive, but big enough.... And that's all I know about it, I've never even plugged it in! Contact me off list if interested. Thanks. Alternatively, does anyone have an address/phone number of a UK based IBM dealer/scrapper who'd come and haul this machine away (there's currently a skip located two houses down from where I live, I'm resisting the temptation for now....)? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 22 23:06:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 05:06:27 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment References: Message-ID: <009701c7855c$da577a80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an >>"SDX" disc pack.... > > No idea on the MEmotech (I don';t have one yet).... I just did a bit of "Googling"; seems the Memotechs could run CP/M when fitted with the "FDX" expansion "chassis". I never did manage to track one of those units down. They were pretty nifty gizmos which could house 2 floppy drives, a hard drive and Memotech's own "Silicon Discs" (aka ramdiscs) amongst other things. They also came with an internal 80 column video card to make CP/M usable. :-) The really odd thing is that I can find no mention whatsoever of the "SDX" disc unit which I had...? The SDX was a very simple unit, consisting of a single half height FD in a case with PSU and the interface which took the form of a "cartridge" which was the same shape as the computer and plugged in on the right hand side of the machine (you had to have a couple of internal expansion cards fitted to extend the expansion bus out to the edge of the case). This was most definitely a genuine Memotech product, but information on it was thin on the ground even "back in the day". > The problem was that CP/M needs RAM starting at location 0, the >TRS-80 has the BASIC ROMs there and starts RAM at, IIRC, 0x4000. Hmm, same problem as the Model III then (ISTR that had its ROM located at $0000 too, hence the reason for the Model IV). > The first solution was a modifed CP/M _and modified application >programs_ relocated to run in RAM starting at 0x4000.... Ouch....I can see that being somewhat "problematical". ;-) >....The second solution was an add-on circuit board.... Hmm, sounds like these are probably going to be as easy to get hold of now as hen's teeth...? Think I'll just get a Z80 Second Processor for my Beeb instead (far less hassle). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 22 21:06:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 03:06:11 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org><46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com><048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20070421134026.O45438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <009501c7855c$d9fcd760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > TRS-80 Model 1 can run a "relocated" CP/M (from FMG?). >OR, minor circuitry (from Parasitic Engineering, Omicron, etc.) >can convert it to a "real" CP/M machine. Thanks for that. The reason I ask is that I have one here which I'm trying to decide whether or not to keep (machines without some form of disc storage/OS are pretty low on my list of things to keep right now). > And, HUH made an S100 adapter for it, to be able to use other >interesting boards. I don't even have an "Interface 1".... :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 22 21:01:29 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 03:01:29 +0100 Subject: Quick survey on equipment References: <200704172146.l3HLitLY082621@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46257B17.3080905@stillhq.com><048a01c783d2$1071e920$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4629EC71.7020307@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <009401c7855c$d9db6cb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Although CPN isn't real CP/M, its an almost-compatible look-alike. A >Torch Z80 won't run real CP/M, though it will run a modest subset of >CP/M applications. Agreed, this was the main reason I got rid of the system all those years ago....I'd already got several Beebs at that point (and had just picked up the "Visual 1050"). >> PDP-11/23 + Z80-CP/M co-processor card > > That's unusual too. Who made the Z80 card? Again, I got rid of that particular machine quite a few years ago, I don't recall the manufacturer of the card. It was a standard dual-width Q-Bus card, containing the Z80, 64K DRAM and various support chips. Communications with the board was done via a serial port located near the module's handle, with a pinout compatible with the ports on a DLV-11J. That's about all I remember about it, I only ever firec up CP/M on it once....I was more interested in the DEC side of the system. ;-) Perhaps I should've kept the card when I got rid of the machine, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing.... >> Transam Tuscan > > Another unusual one. Does it work? You would have to ask about the machines I've parted with.... :-) It was in working order when I got rid of it, but that was a few years ago and I'm no-longer in contact with the chap who had it from me. I hadn't realised how rare these machines are, otherwise I might've kept hold of it. But it's the usual story of too many machines and not enough space/time. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Apr 22 20:40:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:40:12 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: Message-ID: <009301c7855c$d9ae1b20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > A European PC with a CGA card will output 60Hz NTSC video.... Whilst this is perfectly true, IIRC the IBM CGA monitor takes the "RGBI" signal produced by the card, not the composite one. I believe that the composite output was intended primarily for driving a modulator to allow the use of an ordinary TV with the system. Almost none of the "clone" CGA cards I've come across over the years support the composite video output. TTFN - Pete. From kenzolist at counterfolk.com Sun Apr 22 23:35:08 2007 From: kenzolist at counterfolk.com (Ken) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:35:08 -0400 Subject: old school security In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070422193339.0e050488@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.62965190410614.371.784470558167@1.00004556637892> An early generation of the Tandem (I'm gonna guess TNS-II) running the default shell "COMINT" had the following pretty big weakness out of the box. The logins and passwords were stored in cleartext in a file (my fuzzy memory says it was probably called $SYSTEM.SYSTEM.USERID or USERS). You couldn't read it, however, if you didn't have the supervisor login (usually called SUPER.SUPER, although at one place I recall it being called SUPER.DUPER, either way being userid 255,255). However, anyone could start a new instance of COMINT, which would start up in a logged off state. The weakness was that you could also manually specify a "swap file" for any program execution, rather than let the system automatically create a temporary file for that purpose. You would start COMINT like this: :COMINT/SWAP $DATA.MYFILES.MYSWAP/ and then it would create that memory swap file in your subvolume as it ran. Then, attempt to log in. COMINT would read the userid file into memory, which would cause it to be written into the swap file. Then, stop this instance of COMINT (you might have to log in successfully as someone first in order to be able to stop the process with Ctrl-Y (EOF!)), and check out your saved swap file to find the contents of the userid file somewhere in there in cleartext. They patched this hole later. Disclaimer: This is all from memory from almost 30 years ago, and I was only around 9 years old at the time. - Ken From trag at io.com Sun Apr 22 23:43:17 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:43:17 -0500 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <200704221704.l3MH3Y5t082950@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704221704.l3MH3Y5t082950@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:55:55 +0100 >From: Roger Holmes >On 21 Apr, 2007, at 09:24, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Message: 23 >> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:46:53 -0500 >> From: Jeff Walther > >> If any of your documentation is related to hardware design as opposed >> to user guides and user manuals I would be very grateful if I could >> get a look at it. > >You probably need 'Designing Cards and Drivers', part of the Inside >Macintosh series. You are correct and I have that. But thank you, because I might not have been aware of it. You had no way of knowing. I also have "Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware", and the Inside Macintosh series. If I was an experienced video card designer, that is all that I would need. They explain the interfaces, more or less. But I would also like some materials that would teach me something about the art. For example, there are a number of different ways to handle updating the frame buffer so that one avoids artifacts on the display. What are the pros and cons of each and how do they apply in this particular situation? I could try to build cards for each of them and test it out. But I probably can't afford that many proto-types. On the other hand, I might be able to get several designs out of one or two prototypes by making good use of the flexibility of FPGAs. Still, I'd love to read about some designs that worked and see what choices other folks made. >> One specific thing I've been wondering about is how one implements >> quickdraw acceleration. Was there an Apple guide to doing this in >> some of the developer materials, or was it something which each >> company worked out on their own -- deciding which Quickdraw calls to >> trap and send to the video card? > >Though I've never done it for hardware acceleration purposes, I would >think you just need to override some of the standard routines in the >QuickDraw bottleneck. StdLine, StdRect, StrRRect, StdOval, StdPoly, >StdBits, StdRegion and StdText. The ones you don't need are for >reading/writing pictures and picture comments. I have used these to >capture data for pen plotters, raster printers and into applications. >Alas on OS-X we now need to be able to read PDF - a much more >complicated format and proprietary to Adobe, though with the great >benefit of platform independence for files. Cool. Thank you for the ideas. I will look at those commands and develop ideas on trapping and accelerating them. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sun Apr 22 23:48:18 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:48:18 -0500 Subject: Mac Rasterops Drivers In-Reply-To: <200704221704.l3MH3Y5t082950@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704221704.l3MH3Y5t082950@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:51:30 -0400 >From: Robert Borsuk >On Apr 21, 2007, at 2:46 AM, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> Rob, >> >> Amongst the SE/30 collection crowd there is near fanatical interest >> in the old Xceed Color 30, Color 30HR, and MacroColor 30 -- the >> cards which install in an SE/30 and are compatible with the >> Grayscale board. >> >> I've been slowly working my way around to designing a new card to >> do the same function. FPGAs are fast and affordable and SRAM or >> fast SDRAM is also affordable in the quantities needed. > I designed the hardware upgrades and wrote the drivers for the Color >30HR and the MacroColor30HR. I should have all the original source, >schematics, and the Layout of the original FPGA (icky) for that card >also. I should also (somewhere) have the schematic and stuff for the >grayscale adapter. Let me see what I can do. Wow, Rob. That would be fantastic. Thank you. Please let me know if there are any expenses related to duplication for which I can reimburse you. Jeff From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 22 19:04:03 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:04:03 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JGX00A12C55FMNA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: Jos Dreesen > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:13:35 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >Anyone knows of websites discussing true junkbox CP/M systems ? > >The P112 might be nice, but my junkbox contains only the standard Z80... > > Jos Dreessen Lookup ALPACA on Yahoo groups.com. There are several Z80 systems on the net. Allison From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 23 02:49:21 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:49:21 +0200 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883A9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: zondag 22 april 2007 2:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? > > I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in the > last week) about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or > maybe I dreamed that up. Yup, but it was only the wiring to the console :-) > Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my 11/34 > console was blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does > the cpu, but the "digits" > in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on. > > [...snip...] > > -brad I worked on the M7859, a year ago, so things are hazy already. See www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/m7859/troubleshoot.html I will check this evening if I still have the printout of the schematics with all kind of notes scribbled on it ... - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 23 04:54:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:54:45 -0500 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box In-Reply-To: <462C1FBD.6030606@msm.umr.edu> References: <462BDFD4.6000705@msm.umr.edu> <462BE891.4030605@guntersville.net> <462C1FBD.6030606@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <462C8265.4030903@yahoo.co.uk> jim wrote: [CA floppies] > Any thoughts on the list as to how to archive the data? I know > that Lars H. is going to do his thing, and owns them, but more > ideas would be welcome. Lars said something to me at the weekend about the disks that he has being a bit weird; the first track's laid down using FM density with the rest being MFM - and for some reason Imagedisk wasn't making sense of them even in "full analysis" mode. I'm not sure though if that was *all* CA disks, or just some of the ones he happened to have. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 23 05:48:28 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:48:28 -0400 Subject: AS/400 available for pickup (UK only) [Second call] In-Reply-To: <009601c7855c$da2a28f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <009601c7855c$da2a28f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <462C8EFC.3060209@mdrconsult.com> Ensor wrote: > I believe it's a model 9404, with an expansion cabinet - each cabinet is > similar in size to a DEC BA123 cabinet, IE not massive, but big > enough.... And that's all I know about it, I've never even plugged it in! > > Alternatively, does anyone have an address/phone number of a UK based > IBM dealer/scrapper who'd come and haul this machine away (there's > currently a skip located two houses down from where I live, I'm > resisting the temptation for now....)? If anyone's interested and and it's on the way to the scrap pile, that machine probably has a YE Data YD-180 8" floppy drive in it. It's a very nice 24VDC/5VDC half-height drive. Doc From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 23 07:22:30 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:22:30 -0500 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box In-Reply-To: <462C8265.4030903@yahoo.co.uk> References: <462C1FBD.6030606@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200704231124.l3NBOANT019040@hosting.monisys.ca> > Lars said something to me at the weekend about the disks that he has being a > bit weird; the first track's laid down using FM density with the rest being > MFM - and for some reason Imagedisk wasn't making sense of them even in "full > analysis" mode. I'm not sure though if that was *all* CA disks, or just some > of the ones he happened to have. FM system tracks on a MFM disk are not uncommon at all. ImageDisk shouldn't have trouble with that, so there must be some other "odd thing" happening on those disks - Do you get anything at all in the image file? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 06:41:33 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:41:33 +0100 Subject: Poss OT: TZ875N DLT changer questions Message-ID: Hi list, I'd like to delve into the collective knowledge of those out there, with the following questions: (apologies if the TZ875N isn't quite 15 years old and is as such OT) 1) This changer currently has a 10/20GB (DLT2000) drive in it. Tapes for this (DLT 3) are hard to find on ePay. However, the 15/30GB DLT 3XT tapes are plentiful. What would happen if I tried using those? 2) Can I remove the DLT2000 drive and fit say a DLT4000 and will the changer still work? 2a) ISTR some discussion a while ago about the drives having to be a certain specific type (marked "Changer Only" or somesuch) to be useable in a changer. Is this right, or can I just slap any old DLT4000 I find in there? Sorry this is a bit vague - I haven't taken the thing to bits yet. Looking at its construction, it's going to be quite a challenge to do so. TIA, Ed. From erik at baigar.de Mon Apr 23 07:34:12 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:34:12 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: govliq: Rolm on govliquidation... Message-ID: Dear folks, I'd give a lot to get these, but unfortunately it requires dmil for certain reasons I do not know and I am in Germany :-((( There is a Rolm 1602B in Mechanicsburg (2850/3217): http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1197257&categoryId=1004 Simultaneously there is the ULTRA-RARE operators console for this beast in Richmond (2856/2017): http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1203684&categoryId=e2856 So these two together would make a very nice rugged nova! I really hope, that these find a good home and maybe meet each other... Regards, Erik. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 23 08:18:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:18:39 -0500 Subject: British Computer Society - 50 year event in July Message-ID: <462CB22F.90704@yahoo.co.uk> (Primarily a bit of advanced warning for those overseas who may be interested!) The BCS is 50 years old this year, and to celebrate the Computer Conservation Society are organising an event at both Bletchley Park and in London, running from July 12th to the 14th. Lots more details, including booking info, available at: http://www.bcsat50.org cheers, Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 23 08:59:40 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:59:40 -0600 Subject: govliq: Rolm on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:34:12 +0200. Message-ID: Erik, that certainly looks like a couple of good lots because there's not a lot of other junk tossed in. Someone please rescue these! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdg3rd at comcast.net Mon Apr 23 09:39:03 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:39:03 +0000 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) Message-ID: <042320071439.7116.462CC50700004E6700001BCC22007507440B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > 3. Re: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) (Chuck Guzis) > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:50:00 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) > One other fairly popular "nearly compatible" that I recall is the > Mitsubishi PC. Like the Convergent-designed 6300 It was a headache > for a lot of applications. Not really inferior to the 5150, but > different enough to be frustrating. The 6300 (and 6300 Plus) were designed and built by Olivetti, probably by the same engineers who used to keep Mussolini's trains running on time. Their DB-25 video connector is the only reliable way ever discovered to break a Radio Shack Daisy Wheel Printer II (aside from tossing the beast into a smelter). Convergent did the 7300 and 3B1 Unix PCs (vastly superior machines in my arrogant opinion, but I'm partial to just about any MC68k series systems that didn't come from Cupertino). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net The reason folks don't think of installing Windows as a painful experience is roughly the same reason men don't think of childbirth as a painful experience. Mike, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/30/letters_3003/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 23 10:15:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:15:46 -0700 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <1E76F2CB-7545-469D-98B6-F12F798774C1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Apr 22, 2007, at 11:52 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>>>BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an "SDX" disc >>>>pack for my Memotech at one time, but that didn't run CP/M; rather it >>>>had a basic "disc filing system" in ROM)? >>> >>> I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running >>>unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot be >>>remapped...is this correct? >> >>Most any machine can be setup to shadow the ROM. On a different machine, >>I wrote a few lines of code that would simply read and then write >>ROM data. I set it up so that writes would go to RAM that on boot were >>shadowed behind the ROM. >>After the ROM had been copied, the code was still running from ROM. >>I had a 7474 that would switch the enables on the ROM and RAM >>when it saw the first I/O operation. >>In your case, you'll either need to write separate I/O code for CP/M >>or rige some way such that on each I/O action of the CP/M, you >>switched the ROM back into memory. This should work so long as you don't >>expect to buffer the I/O data where to ROM was. Both are relatively >>simple to do. > > Uhhh...but what if the address lines aren't handled such that the lower >address space isn't remappable? It's my impression that this sort of >scheme isn't really all that common. I mean, sure it's easy to do (I did >it on one of my SBCs) but I don't think many commercially-produced >machines were done that way. > > -Dave > Hi If you mean that the machine wasn't designed that way and it can't be done without modifications, then you may be right. If you are willing to make a few cuts and jumpers, then most any machine that I've ever seen can be reconfigured. The modifiaction that I described required a few cuts, jumper and a daughter board. Even without this, most CPU's are socketed. It is not that hard to trap out specific addresses and change what is sent to the bus. This can be doen with no modifications to the system. You seem to be lacking imagination on what can and can't be done. I think you need to give the problem a little more thought. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 From erik at baigar.de Mon Apr 23 11:26:50 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:26:50 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: govliq: Rolm on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Richard wrote: > Erik, that certainly looks like a couple of good lots because there's > not a lot of other junk tossed in. > > Someone please rescue these! Of course I'd happy if someone would be relay in sending these to me (I'd offer some $$$ for thie) but I suppose anyone doing the work on getting them, will keep them ;-) This is bad luck - Rolms are not that rare on govliquidation, but it is very difficult to make an arrangement for shipping via a carrier from over here. Additionally I do not understand why often Rolm 1666b goes without demil requirement but the 1602 or the silly operators console require demil???!?? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 11:30:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:30:56 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <516886.89161.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462B8F43.3030.5D7FE16@cclist.sydex.com>, <516886.89161.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462C7CD0.14293.977EF31@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2007 at 18:21, Chris M wrote: > This is how I feel. Utilize virtual-8086 mode to > alleviate alot of the dirty work. Anyone familiar > enough with it? Thinking about this a bit more, given the the T2000 is an 8MHz 80186, it'd probably be easier just to emulate the thing entirely with a software-based emulator instead of using V86 mode. On a modern machine, the simulation would certainly still run faster than the original. Cheers, Chuck From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Apr 23 11:34:47 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:34:47 -0700 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: At 8:43 PM -0400 4/21/07, Brad Parker wrote: >I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in the last week) >about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or maybe I dreamed that >up. I think I was one of the instigators :-) Sorry I'm late... >Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my 11/34 console was >blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits" >in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on. From a much earlier thread, not last week's, I had a not terribly similar problem with mine. The power switch on the front would seemingly turn things on/off but I had no lights. Turned out I had -15V and +20V but no +5V. I was actually missing one of the power regulators. Fixing that caused much joy! >[aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward and got the display to >show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found >that interesting] Do you mean the 20-conductor cable at J1? If it's really J3, my comments are not applicable. IIRC, there is no J3 on the KY11-LB. I had trouble with this cable (J1) to the M7859. (I'm using a BA11-K box.) Shooting the lines on the cable turned up a damaged cable. Replacing this resulted in reliable panel operation. Good luck, John From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 23 11:42:49 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:42:49 -0700 Subject: govliq: Rolm on govliquidation... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462CE209.8090401@mainecoon.com> Erik Baigar wrote: > Additionally I do not understand why often Rolm 1666b goes > without demil requirement but the 1602 or the silly operators > console require demil???!?? The 1602s were widely used in the GLCM/SLCM erector and launch control systems (and in fact required jumping through some flaming hoops of fire for the NAB owing using essentially an unmodified Nova I/O bus with no parity or other error detection). The 1602 was a fundamental component of a weapons system; the 1666B, while a more interesting machine, never had that sort of penetration; most units ended up sitting in labs at the NSWC. What you're observing may be a consequence of that fact. While we're on the topic, does anyone have the pinouts for the console (or is it just straight through?) and power cables? Chris. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 23 12:02:20 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:02:20 -0400 Subject: Date fun Message-ID: <200704231702.l3NH2KEA006268@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Found the following in an old usenet post. Seems on-topic. :) De > The Modified Julian Day was adopted by the Smithsonian Astrophysical > Obser- vatory (SAO) in 1957 for satellite tracking. SAO started > tracking satellites with an 8K (non-virtual) 36-bit IBM 704 computer > in 1957, when Sputnik was launched. The Julian day was 2,435,839 on > January 1, 1957. This is 11,225,377 in octal notation, which was too > big to fit into an 18-bit field (half of its standard 36-bit word). > And, with only 8K of memory, no one wanted to waste the 14 bits left > over by keeping the Julian Day in its own 36-bit word. However, they > also needed to track hours and minutes, for which 18 bits gave enough > accuracy. So, they decided to keep the number of days in the left 18 > bits and the hours and minutes in the right 18 bits of a word. > Eighteen bits would allow the Modified Julian Day (the SAO day) to > grow as large as 262,143 ((2 ** 18) - 1). From Nov. 17, 1858, this > allowed for seven centuries. Using only 17 bits, the date could > possibly grow only as large as 131,071, but this still covers 3 > centuries, as well as leaving the possibility of representing > negative time. The year 1858 preceded the oldest star catalog in use > at SAO, which also avoided having to use negative time in any of the > satellite tracking calculations. > This base time of Nov. 17, 1858 has since been used by TOPS-10, > TOPS-20, and VAX/VMS. Given this base date, the 100 nanosecond > granularity implemented within VAX/VMS, and the 63-bit absolute time > representation (the sign bit must be clear), VMS should have no > trouble with time until: From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 23 12:05:06 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:05:06 -0400 Subject: Date fun Message-ID: <200704231705.l3NH56bY006384@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Is the suspense killing you? :) The chopped off line: 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 Sorry, De From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 23 12:09:32 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:09:32 +0200 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? References: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F979@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker Verzonden: zo 22-04-2007 02:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: KY11 - ever debug one? > Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my 11/34 console was > blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits" > in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on. > Has anyone debugged a dead KY11 ? Any hints? > > [...snip...] > -brad Ok, I still have the printset with all scribbles that I made while working on it. First, how do you boot your 11/34? Do you use the keypad to enter a start address? I'd like to know, because that eliminates a lot of possible problems! (and useless writing here). Ok, only looking at the display stuff. 1. Check DCLO. It is used! (see drawing KY-1) 2. DC OK Led will always be on, as long as +5V is present. 3. Check pins 1, 2, and 7 of the 7447 and the DRIVE # L signals, they should have a repetitive pulse. FIY, the connector pinout is as follows on the console board (ASCII art): __________________________________ | | 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 <---- row of pins near edge of the board | 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 <---- row of pins to the "center" of the board | ^card edge If you do not know if the keypad works, check if the 8008 is running. There should be pulses on D0..D7 and S0-S1-S2. INTR will be active (high, IIRC) if DC LO is active, or the state on S0-1-2 indicates STOP (from the timing states decoder E23, pin 2). Can you tell a bit more what the console does, or does not? - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 12:18:28 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:18:28 -0500 Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: <200704231705.l3NH56bY006384@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200704231705.l3NH56bY006384@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <51ea77730704231018w7c333c34xf042ad447a85efae@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/07, Dennis Boone wrote: > Is the suspense killing you? :) > > The chopped off line: > > 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 > > Sorry, > > De I don't think I'll be around then to watch it happen, but I bet there will still be a Vax running somewhere :) From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 23 12:19:53 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:19:53 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:34:47 PDT." Message-ID: <200704231719.l3NHJsOV004323@mwave.heeltoe.com> Still debugging. I checked all the obvious things. DC LO L is high on the bus, TP1 shows clock. Voltages appear nominal. I put some logic analyzer leads on the 8008 and it resets correctly and INTR goes away. (I have a nice picture if anyone wants it) I see it enter state T1, T1I, T2 and then WAIT. But RDY is high. This seems odd. It should go to T3. Also, my read of the KY11B docs say that I should not have J2 & J3 connected unless I'm in maint mode. (so pulling RDY high should be fine) Should the KY11 work (as the docs say) with only J1 connected? Anything obvious I am missing? -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 23 12:20:48 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:20:48 +0200 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? References: <200704220043.l3M0hoJ3029945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F97A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker Verzonden: zo 22-04-2007 02:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: KY11 - ever debug one? I forgot one thing. As you said that you had the connector the wrong way around plugged in, I would check the drivers (7417 on drawing KY-7) ... is the input signal also present on the output? You might have destroyed one of those ... The console has 2 fastons (tabs?) for the +5 V power, but +5V is also on that flatcable, pin 19. Plugging it in the wrong way gives +5 on pin 2. I do not see much harm there, as pin 2 goes to TB1 "BOOT SW". But check what connections you make between the M7859 and the console if that connector was plugged in the wrong way ... it might give clues! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Apr 23 12:33:25 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:33:25 +0100 Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: <200704231705.l3NH56bY006384@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <001b01c785cd$806b3d10$1204010a@uatempname> Dennis Boone wrote: > Is the suspense killing you? :) > > The chopped off line: > > 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 > I don't know if it was ever published externally, but there was an old SPR (Software Performance Report) that noted that DCL (the VMS shell) only supported 4-digit dates but that Engineering expected to fix it "before 9999". Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 22/04/2007 20:18 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 23 12:39:29 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:39:29 +0100 Subject: Poss OT: TZ875N DLT changer questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23/4/07 12:41, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" wrote: > 1) This changer currently has a 10/20GB (DLT2000) drive in it. Tapes > for this (DLT 3) are hard to find on ePay. However, the 15/30GB DLT > 3XT tapes are plentiful. What would happen if I tried using those? Any CompacTape III will be fine, but bear in mind that if the tapes have been used in a higher capacity drive they'll have to be degaussed before they'll work in a TZ87. > 2) Can I remove the DLT2000 drive and fit say a DLT4000 and will the > changer still work? The changer will, but..... > 2a) ISTR some discussion a while ago about the drives having to be a > certain specific type (marked "Changer Only" or somesuch) to be > useable in a changer. Is this right, or can I just slap any old > DLT4000 I find in there? The only difference is the front panel of the drive - the door flap is removed and the mechanism activated by the rod on the side of the drive that's coupled to the changer robot. Whether it's possible to just remove the door from a non-changer drive and plug the robot's activator in I don't know. > Sorry this is a bit vague - I haven't taken the thing to bits yet. > Looking at its construction, it's going to be quite a challenge to do > so. Nah :) We strip them down all the time because the power supplies are flaky now. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 13:00:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:00:44 -0400 Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: <001b01c785cd$806b3d10$1204010a@uatempname> References: <200704231705.l3NH56bY006384@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <001b01c785cd$806b3d10$1204010a@uatempname> Message-ID: On 4/23/07, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote: > > 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 > > I don't know if it was ever published externally, but there was > an old SPR (Software Performance Report) that noted that DCL > (the VMS shell) only supported 4-digit dates but that Engineering > expected to fix it "before 9999". I've seen the SPR, or at least comments from it, so I think it did get out somehow. Beware Y10K! -ethan From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 23 13:11:14 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:11:14 +0200 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? References: <200704231719.l3NHJsOV004323@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F97B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker Verzonden: ma 23-04-2007 19:19 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: KY11 - ever debug one? > [...snip...] I will have a look later, I am out the rest of the evening ... > Also, my read of the KY11B docs say that I should not have J2 & J3 > connected unless I'm in maint mode. (so pulling RDY high should be fine) > > Should the KY11 work (as the docs say) with only J1 connected? Anything > obvious I am missing? > > -brad FWIW, I have J2 and J3 always connected. If you want, I can try and look what the 11/34 "does" if J2 and J3 are disconnected (on M7859). - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 23 14:00:15 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:00:15 +0100 Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23/4/07 19:00, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On 4/23/07, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> Dennis Boone wrote: >>> 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 >> >> I don't know if it was ever published externally, but there was >> an old SPR (Software Performance Report) that noted that DCL >> (the VMS shell) only supported 4-digit dates but that Engineering >> expected to fix it "before 9999". > > I've seen the SPR, or at least comments from it, so I think it did get > out somehow. I'm sure it did, I remember laughing muchly at it back in the day..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 14:18:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:18:27 -0400 Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/07, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 23/4/07 19:00, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > > On 4/23/07, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >> Dennis Boone wrote: > >>> 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 > >> > >> I don't know if it was ever published externally, but there was > >> an old SPR (Software Performance Report) that noted that DCL > >> (the VMS shell) only supported 4-digit dates but that Engineering > >> expected to fix it "before 9999". > > > > I've seen the SPR, or at least comments from it, so I think it did get > > out somehow. > > I'm sure it did, I remember laughing muchly at it back in the day..... This is what I remember running across a long time ago... http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/calendar_time_y2k_etc.html#nov-17-1858 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 23 14:29:36 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (doc at mdrconsult.com) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:29:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: <001b01c785cd$806b3d10$1204010a@uatempname> References: <200704231705.l3NH56bY006384@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <001b01c785cd$806b3d10$1204010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <1729.170.154.100.131.1177356576.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> > Dennis Boone wrote: >> Is the suspense killing you? :) >> >> The chopped off line: >> >> 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 >> > > I don't know if it was ever published externally, but there was > an old SPR (Software Performance Report) that noted that DCL > (the VMS shell) only supported 4-digit dates but that Engineering > expected to fix it "before 9999". I can totally see that. Somebody had to write the report, and he _had_ to note any possible shortcomings, and the form probably _required_ a date for the expected (naturally) solution. Maybe I'm thinking that way because I'm teaching at a gov't agency this week. :\ Doc From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Apr 23 15:05:55 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:05:55 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462D11A3.9000206@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi All, Dayton starts next month on the 18th. I'll be there. So will 3 of my ham friends from my area (Boston, MA). Any plans for getting together? If not, any recommendations for good restaurants? Thanks Joe Heck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 23 15:08:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:08:34 -0600 Subject: More on CTS idiots Message-ID: With my recent dovebid purchase, I got the usual form letter from CTS telling me that I should use them. I responded that based on my past experience with them, I would never use them again and I would never recommend them to anyone else. Then they replied that there were no "comments" on my previous order with them indicating that they had fucked up. My response was: That's capitalism, baby. You lose, someone else wins. Then I got a snarky reply from them telling me to "remember that when they trash your stuff". How could I forget that it was CTS who trashed my stuff, while Craters & Freighters did awesome work? What a bunch of fuckwits. I know y'all like these people, but this kind of attitude is exactly why I had problems with them and will never recommend them or use them again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 15:15:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:15:59 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <462D11A3.9000206@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <462D11A3.9000206@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/23/07, joe heck wrote: > Hi All, > > Dayton starts next month on the 18th. I'll be there. So will 3 of my > ham friends from my area (Boston, MA). Any plans for getting together? > If not, any recommendations for good restaurants? We seem to gravitate towards the Rib Spot - I like to park there and walk across the street to Hara. We've had gatherings of CCmpers there for the past few years I've been able to go. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 23 15:31:29 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:31:29 +0100 Subject: Date fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23/4/07 20:18, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >> I'm sure it did, I remember laughing muchly at it back in the day..... > > This is what I remember running across a long time ago... > > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/calendar_time_y2k_etc.html#nov-17-1858 Yep, looks familiar. I've probably still got that printed out somewhere :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 15:43:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:43:02 -0700 Subject: ISO: Amstrad 3" floppy drive Message-ID: <462CB7E6.29523.A5EBC13@cclist.sydex.com> The one in my collection went belly-up (motor has developed a short in the windings). Does anyone stateside have one that I could buy? Thanks, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 23 15:52:03 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:52:03 -0700 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C557@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson wrote: jim wrote: [CA floppies] > Any thoughts on the list as to how to archive the data? I know > that Lars H. is going to do his thing, and owns them, but more > ideas would be welcome. Lars said something to me at the weekend about the disks that he has being a bit weird; the first track's laid down using FM density with the rest being MFM - and for some reason Imagedisk wasn't making sense of them even in "full analysis" mode. I'm not sure though if that was *all* CA disks, or just some of the ones he happened to have. ------------ Billy responds: I saw this a lot on the early 8" single sided drives. The transition to double density was FM to MFM. The first track was preserved as FM so older drives could still read the boot track and then check for double density hardware. I thought it had died out when the first double sided units came along, but obviously not. Some of the early LSI could handle this so it was invisible to the end user. All of our 8" test systems at Magnetic Peripherals used this format on the double density disks. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 16:12:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:12:58 -0700 Subject: ALSPA Cpm box In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C557@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C557@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <462CBEEA.29980.A7A2455@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2007 at 13:52, Billy Pettit wrote: > All of our 8" test systems at Magnetic Peripherals used this format on the > double density disks. This was very very common throughout the life of the 8" diskette on many systems. An FM boot track so that the disk could be identified on both newer and older (FM only) equipment and not mistaken for a blank. Many systems would only boot from an FM track. Where the FM-MFM stuff gets interesting is on the double-denstiy 8" RX02 floppies. Sector ID headers are still FM, but sector data is a modified MFM (so that the IDAM detection circuitry doesn't trigger on an MFM pattern). Not readable using standard floppy LSI logic. Tim Mann, however, does read and write them with his Catweasel utility. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 23 10:23:47 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:23:47 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: Allison > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:04:03 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> >>Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? >> From: Jos Dreesen >> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:13:35 +0200 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> >> >>Anyone knows of websites discussing true junkbox CP/M systems ? >> >>The P112 might be nice, but my junkbox contains only the standard Z80... >> >> Jos Dreessen > >Lookup ALPACA on Yahoo groups.com. There are several Z80 systems on the net. > > >Allison It was late wne I posted so here is something more useful and certainly there has to be something for everyone. If all else fails, I've made more than a few "one off" z80 systems using "junkbox" parts. To run CP/M you don't need a lot but the minimal and useful complete system are not far apart. Z80: Whatever you have! RAM: 48-64k of ram 48k will be enough to run a lot of software, but 64k is only 2 61256s (a 32kx8 SRAM). CP/M will run in 32k but limited application software will fit. The only requirement is ram starts at 0000h and be contigious for at least 20K(minimum) after boot. ROM: anything from 2k up, needed to "boot" the system. desireable to be able to disable it from the memory map. Serial port for a terminal (can be bitbash software to a single bit port) Some mass storage IDE, CF, Rom as a READonly DISK, Also ram can be made to look like disk and if all else a floppy controller and drive. Of all those IDE is the easiest and floppy is likely the more complex. Several desirable things but not required: Serial at least two serial ports (one SIO or DART has two). Conter timer either z80 CTC or common 8253 to provide both a baud clock for serial and a free counter timer for whatever. Parallel interface (IBM/centronics compatable) simple but allows for printers like Epson or HP4L. Parallel port using 8255 PPI, 24 IO lines software configurable, great for programmer or other projects that must be controlled. A video chip like 6845 for a self contained display system Keyboard interface that can accept XT or PS2 keyboard. Paged ram or rom for extra workspace. SITES----------------> Several items at this site worth looking at. http://www.retroleum.co.uk/z80-ideinterface.html Definate go to site for Z80 info: http://www.z80.info/ There are other sites from that link worth a trip, many are in German and have english translation, some don't, I've found them useful. The list would not be complete without Gaby's fine work: http://www.gaby.de/ecpmlink.htm Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 23 10:29:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:29:22 -0400 Subject: Junkbox parts... Message-ID: <0JGY004DFIZ4PYJ0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> The question on junkbox z80 systems made me remember that old 386 and 486 system besides providing a raft of 32kx8 SRAMS also had a keyboard interface chip.. I have a few salvaged 8742(smae as 8242) from PC hardware of the AT class 80386-486 level. Without resorting to eraseing the Eproms (8742) and reprogramming them I've wondered if.. Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and commands they take? Allison From blakespot at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 11:07:14 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:07:14 -0400 Subject: The 640k "barrier" In-Reply-To: <462BC98E.7030407@brutman.com> References: <34625.10837.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <462BC98E.7030407@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4b7d63a40704230907m3f27c331y12d1c63b9f56c164@mail.gmail.com> You may enjoy this article: http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000054.php The Great Apple //c vs. IBM PCjr Christmas Sales Battle... bp On 4/22/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I have my PCjr shrine. The cyberspace one is at http://www.brutman.com/PCjr > > Most of you already know that the PCjr didn't have dedicated video RAM. > The video RAM was shared with the 128K of memory on the motherboard, > and there was some logic to arbitrate between the CPU and the video > circuitry. The video circuitry always won, so a normal PCjr with just > 128K (the original design limit) was effectively half the speed of a PC > 5150, even though they had the same CPU running at the same clock speed. > (The memory was not dual ported.) > > IBM called the video logic the 'Video Gate Array', and often abbreviated > it as VGA. So when I tell people that my PCjr has a VGA, I am > technically not lying. > > The standard PCjr has only 64K of RAM, soldered to the motherboard. > Certain video modes (the enhancements to CGA) were not available unless > you had a 128K machine, where the extra memory went to a dedicated slot. > I believe the video circuitry treated the memory as two banks, so the > extra 64K really was necessary for the enhanced modes, not for storage > but for memory bandwidth. > > The VGA took memory references in the B8000 to BFFFF and remapped them > to whatever 16K 'bank' of memory was selected in the first 128K to be > the real video memory. The bank was very flexible to configure; a stock > PCjr would put it at the high end of memory (112 - 128K) and grow it > downwards as needed. A device driver could relocate it. And when you > did add extra memory to a PCjr and wanted it usable by DOS, you > absolutely needed the device driver. > > The #1 flaw on the PCjr (in my humble opinion) was making the assumption > that memory was capped at 128K, and having the machine put the video > memory at the top of memory. This required a device driver to fix > things up if you had more memory. If they had designed the video memory > to be shared at the top of installed memory and not assumed that 128K > was the maximum, the machine would be far more usable. I think the > Tandy 1000 series did it correctly. > > (A BIOS oddity - for a machine with a supposed 128K limit, the BIOS > knows how to count to 640K.) > > > > Mike > -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From trasz at freebsd.org Mon Apr 23 16:16:31 2007 From: trasz at freebsd.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:16:31 +0200 Subject: HP MUX cable. Message-ID: <20070423211631.GA15036@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> Does anyone have the pinouts (schematics) for cable to connect HP 9000 E25 with MUX (MDP)? E25 has a strange four-row socket (called DB78, afaik), and MDP has normal DB9. I'd like to get this machine to work, and it's the only way to get a console. Thank you :-) -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 23 16:24:38 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:24:38 -0500 Subject: More on CTS idiots References: Message-ID: <006e01c785ed$cc5b3020$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > Then they replied that there were no "comments" on my previous order > with them indicating that they had fucked up. My response was: > > That's capitalism, baby. You lose, someone else wins. Yes, true. But perhaps it would have been a good thing to give them the feedback on the earlier shipment at the time of the shipment? Who knows... maybe they just had a new crew working that day and your complaint would have helped them get rid of the new guy before he wrecked other peoples shipments. Maybe they would have (at that time) been able to investigate the claim and if a problem was found - refund your money and perhaps cover part or all of your shipment through insurance? Just a thought for next time. > Then I got a snarky reply from them telling me to "remember that when > they trash your stuff". How could I forget that it was CTS who > trashed my stuff, while Craters & Freighters did awesome work? Perhaps what they were referring to with that statement was "when the new company you are now using trashes your stuff maybe you'll jump back to us". ;) Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 16:55:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:55:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <1177281147.4712.265.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 22, 7 06:32:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2007-04-22 at 01:44 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > > I wonder how many of the PC-compatible-yet-goofy-hardware 808x clones > > have been lost to the ages. > > > At the risk of starting a religious flame-war, my favorite of the > not-quite-compatibles was the HP-150. Sleek, stylish, small, hard-shell > diskettes, use of HPIB for disks and peripherals, and a touch screen. > SEXY! I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine) using an HP-HIL interface. It has 4 expansion slots (as against 2 in the original 150), and alas a lot more custom silicon. I have the HP150 TechRef with the supplement for the 150-II. The case of the original HP150 seems to be very similar to the case of the HP9816, which is one of the nicest styled machines I've ever seen. The eleectronic design of that box is pretty interesting too... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 23 17:11:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:11:28 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11FDDEBE-1287-42E9-B294-08C7C969C822@neurotica.com> On Apr 23, 2007, at 11:15 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>>> I'm pretty sure the TRS-80 Model I is incapable of running >>>> unmodified CP/M because it has ROM in low memory that cannot >>>> be remapped...is this correct? >>> >>> Most any machine can be setup to shadow the ROM. On a different >>> machine, >>> I wrote a few lines of code that would simply read and then write >>> ROM data. I set it up so that writes would go to RAM that on boot >>> were >>> shadowed behind the ROM. >>> After the ROM had been copied, the code was still running from ROM. >>> I had a 7474 that would switch the enables on the ROM and RAM >>> when it saw the first I/O operation. >>> In your case, you'll either need to write separate I/O code for CP/M >>> or rige some way such that on each I/O action of the CP/M, you >>> switched the ROM back into memory. This should work so long as >>> you don't >>> expect to buffer the I/O data where to ROM was. Both are relatively >>> simple to do. >> >> Uhhh...but what if the address lines aren't handled such that >> the lower address space isn't remappable? It's my impression >> that this sort of scheme isn't really all that common. I mean, >> sure it's easy to do (I did it on one of my SBCs) but I don't >> think many commercially-produced machines were done that way. > > If you mean that the machine wasn't designed that way and it can't > be done without modifications, then you may be right. If you are > willing to make > a few cuts and jumpers, then most any machine that I've ever seen > can be > reconfigured. > The modifiaction that I described required a few cuts, jumper and > a daughter board. > Even without this, most CPU's are socketed. It is not that hard to > trap > out specific addresses and change what is sent to the bus. This can be > doen with no modifications to the system. You seem to be lacking > imagination > on what can and can't be done. > I think you need to give the problem a little more thought. Nono, I agree with you, it's quite simple...I know how it's done; I've designed four Z80 systems, three with remappable lower address spaces and one without. I'm talking about running CP/M on an un- hacked machine...as in, walking up to a bog-standard TRS-80 Model I and booting CP/M. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 17:13:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:13:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <009301c7855c$d9ae1b20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 23, 7 02:40:12 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > A European PC with a CGA card will output 60Hz NTSC video.... > > Whilst this is perfectly true, IIRC the IBM CGA monitor takes the "RGBI" > signal produced by the card, not the composite one. Indeed it does. And on an European PC, that RGBI signal is the same spec as in the US version, that is, with 60Hz vertical sync frequency, etc. It is possible to re-program the 6845 CRTC chip on the CGA card to get 50Hz vertical. I have a PAL encoder box that plugs into the DE9 connector on a CGA card and which came with a little bit of software to do just that. But no IBM machine did that as standard in the 'European' version. > > I believe that the composite output was intended primarily for driving a > modulator to allow the use of an ordinary TV with the system. The composite signal is output on 2 connectors on the IBM CGA card. Firstly on the RCA phono socket on the back, indented to link to US TVs, etc. And secondly on a 4 pin BERG header on the card. This was used to connect the monitor in the 5155 PortablePC (the monitor in that is an amber-screen Zneith composite mono monitor), and also to connect an RF modulator (There's a 12V power output on another pin of that connector. > > Almost none of the "clone" CGA cards I've come across over the years support > the composite video output. Odd. Just about all the ones I've seen did, although not necessarily on an RCA phono conenctor on the bracket. Some had that connector -- I have a clone CGA card which is pretty much a copy of the IBM one apart from using different DRAM chips (I can't rememebr if it's that they're 8 off 16K*1 5V-only ones, or a pair of 16K*4s). I saw a clone CGA card _years_ ago which was one big ASIC and a couple of RAMs. It had a 2-pin header plug on the PCB that carried composite NTSC video. I never _owned_ that card though. But I do have something called a 'Colorgraph+' It's a CGA card which can take 48K of RAM (6 off 16K*4 chips), and thus has a 640*200 in 8 colours (separate R,G,B bitplanes) mode, along with a 320*200 in 16 colours mode, etc. This only has a DE9 connector, but pin 7, normally unused on a CGA card, carries the composite NTSC signal. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 17:19:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 Subject: Junkbox parts... In-Reply-To: <0JGY004DFIZ4PYJ0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGY004DFIZ4PYJ0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462CCE9B.32545.AB7708C@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for > small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. > Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how > to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and > commands they take? It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. Cheers, Chuck From rachael at rachael.dyndns.org Mon Apr 23 17:37:45 2007 From: rachael at rachael.dyndns.org (rachael at rachael.dyndns.org) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:37:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: <46267CB8.2070302@gmail.com> References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk> <46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> <46267CB8.2070302@gmail.com> Message-ID: Only have one real CP/M machine here, a regnecentralen rc702 picolo, but I havent been able to local a boot disc for it, seems it uses a slightly strange format for its discs. Got 3 commodore 128 here that can run it, but I never did use them much for CP/M, except for using dbase that my dad used onces on it once. Have a baby XT board here with a nec c20, and some 8bit isa scsi cards, keeps telling myself I ought to figure if I could run a cpm86 on it. regards Jacob Dahl Pind From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 17:39:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:39:46 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:23, Allison wrote: > To run CP/M you don't need a lot but the minimal and useful complete > system are not far apart. > > Z80: Whatever you have! > > RAM: 48-64k of ram 48k will be enough to run a lot of software, but 64k > is only 2 61256s (a 32kx8 SRAM). CP/M will run in 32k but limited > application software will fit. The only requirement is ram starts at > 0000h and be contigious for at least 20K(minimum) after boot. If I were to approach a project like this, I'd probably go find an old junker credit-card or POS terminal that could be scavenged rather than try to adapt one of the Z80s and peripherals that infest my hellbox. Most of these things have lots of SRAM (128-512K) in addition to flash or EPROM and a Z180/64180 or the like. You also get an LCD display for debugging and a numeric keyboard. Just buffer some data and address lines off for a floppy or IDE interface and you're in business, as all of these things have serial ports already. Heck, you could even adapt the flash on some of these things for use as a mass-storage unit and skip IDE drive or floppy altogether. But then, I'm basically lazy. :) Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 23 17:51:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <462C7CD0.14293.977EF31@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <134726.34209.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Apr 2007 at 18:21, Chris M wrote: > > > This is how I feel. Utilize virtual-8086 mode to > > alleviate alot of the dirty work. Anyone familiar > > enough with it? > > Thinking about this a bit more, given the the T2000 > is an 8MHz 80186, > it'd probably be easier just to emulate the thing > entirely with a > software-based emulator instead of using V86 mode. > On a modern > machine, the simulation would certainly still run > faster than the > original. But a '186 is merely an '86 with some other chips tacked on. I don't know how V-8086 handles "additions" as it emulates a peecee on a windows box, but it at least seems that you could "add" on the ancillary '186 functionality in the same way you add the other components present on a peecee mobo. I have the '386 book, if it's the same one you're referring to, and treatment of V-8086 mode was kind of sparse. Intel had another book for those writing an operating system. Perhaps that dealt with in greater depth. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 17:30:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:30:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <009701c7855c$da577a80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 23, 7 05:06:27 am Message-ID: > > The problem was that CP/M needs RAM starting at location 0, the > >TRS-80 has the BASIC ROMs there and starts RAM at, IIRC, 0x4000. > > Hmm, same problem as the Model III then (ISTR that had its ROM located at > $0000 too, hence the reason for the Model IV). Exactly. The Model 1 and Model 3 are actually quite similar machines internally, to the extent that a Model 3 ROM set will run on a Model 1 (if sutiably addressed). Admittedly the Model 3 makes more use of the Z80 I/O ports (almost all I/O on the M1 is memory-mapped for some unknwon reason), but the memory nap, video, etc, are the same. The M4 has quite a few changes over the M3. It has the software-selectable memory maps, allowing RAM at location 0 for CP/M. And a much improvded video section with a 6845 CRTC chip (and not a fixed-configuration row of TTL of the older 2 machines) thus giving am 80 column text display, etc. > >....The second solution was an add-on circuit board.... > > Hmm, sounds like these are probably going to be as easy to get hold of now > as hen's teeth...? I don't recall there being any published schematics for them either, so if you want to build one you'll have to design it yourself. > > Think I'll just get a Z80 Second Processor for my Beeb instead (far less > hassle). I didn't think those were _that_ common... -tony From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Apr 23 18:15:08 2007 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:15:08 -0400 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: <2310619155.20070421231259@g-lenerz.de> References: <200704201209.24485.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <51ea77730704211356qcdf44e8n2eb08432344b5aca@mail.gmail.com> <2310619155.20070421231259@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <1177370108.11377.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Sat, 2007-04-21 at 23:12 +0200, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Saturday, April 21, 2007, 10:56:53 PM, you wrote: > > > Ach, my favorite SGI machine! It's just so....red! I've got a Iris > > Power Series (?) 4D/130 downstairs that I can't get going. Man is it > > *heavy*... > > Yup, a 4D/310 would be a Power Series machine. Any 3-digit IRIS 4D is > Power Series including the 64 bit Crimson hack (aka 4D/510). The two Hmm, that must be what I have sitting here next to my desk. Its brown/blue and says Power Series on the front, but AFAICT it is technically a Crimson w/ VGXT. I wish it was red though. :-( Worked last I turned it on.... (No, I'm not fond of the dimming light effect when I turn it on, neither are my neighbors. :-) ) Unfortunately, these days, it mostly serves as my printer stand. > digit IRIS 4D are either Personal Iris (brownish "bigtower") machines > (4D/2x or 4D/3x) or Professional Iris (the first SGI/MIPS machines). > > What's wrong with your system aside from being way too heavy to lift > alone to the power outlet upstairs? Generally they're pretty sturdy > and don't go "beyond" that easy. ;-) Mine was not to heavy to lug up and downstairs, if I _completely_ striped it down to the bare metal frame. Pulled the drives, the boards, the fan trays, the PSU, the back plane, everything.. Good time to dust the boards, and to hose off the metal frame. It's how I got mine from downstairs.. to the upstairs.. then back down again. (Yes, there was a couple of year's in between trips.) David From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 23 18:46:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:46:51 -0600 Subject: More on CTS idiots In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:24:38 -0500. <006e01c785ed$cc5b3020$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <006e01c785ed$cc5b3020$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > > Then they replied that there were no "comments" on my previous order > > with them indicating that they had fucked up. My response was: > > > > That's capitalism, baby. You lose, someone else wins. > Yes, true. But perhaps it would have been a good thing to give them the > feedback on the earlier shipment at the time of the shipment? I guess the way I see it is that if they want to improve their business, they could survey me for how I feel about the job they did. Remember, it wasn't just the way it was shipped, it was also the way they handled my order and payment. It was bumbling all the way through and I never talked to the same person twice. > Perhaps what they were referring to with that statement was "when the new > company you are now using trashes your stuff maybe you'll jump back to us". > ;) Yes, that is what they intended, but it totally backfired as they are the ones who did a shitty job, while C&F has done awesome work both the times I've used them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 23 18:48:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:48:25 -0600 Subject: SGI Reality Monster drives/OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:15:08 -0400. <1177370108.11377.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: In article <1177370108.11377.8.camel at crusader.localdomain.home>, David Holland writes: > Hmm, that must be what I have sitting here next to my desk. Its > brown/blue and says Power Series on the front, but AFAICT it is > technically a Crimson w/ VGXT. I wish it was red though. :-( Ooooh, a VGX/T, nice! If you ever want to unload that, it would be a nice fit in my computer graphics museum I'm trying to build. Just a domain name and some storage so far, but I hope to have a walk-in museum open to the public within 10 years. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 23 18:47:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:47:34 -0500 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:23, Allison wrote: > >> To run CP/M you don't need a lot but the minimal and useful complete >> system are not far apart. >> >> Z80: Whatever you have! >> >> RAM: 48-64k of ram 48k will be enough to run a lot of software, but 64k >> is only 2 61256s (a 32kx8 SRAM). CP/M will run in 32k but limited >> application software will fit. The only requirement is ram starts at >> 0000h and be contigious for at least 20K(minimum) after boot. > > If I were to approach a project like this, I'd probably go find an > old junker credit-card or POS terminal ... Wouldn't it take a fair while to reverse-engineer all the address decoding and additional logic (such as for driving the LCD) in the system? i.e. just to find out exactly what you have in order to start thinking about writing software is reasonably non-trivial. It's probably nothing like as much as designing/building something from scratch, but then at least with doing something from scratch there's the benefit of knowing exactly how it fits together. Plus I suspect for many people, designing from a box of chips ends up being more rewarding... > Most of these things have lots of SRAM (128-512K) Hmm, do they? I passed up on some '386 ones recently (I was briefly tempted mainly for the 40x2 displays). Some more SRAM would have been nice to have, though... > Just buffer some data and address lines off for a floppy or IDE > interface From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared to a typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to access an IDE drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten details! :-) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 23 19:03:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M survey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <569375.76438.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- rachael at rachael.dyndns.org wrote: > Only have one real CP/M machine here, a > regnecentralen rc702 picolo, but I > havent been able to local a boot disc for it, seems > it uses a slightly > strange format for its discs. > Got 3 commodore 128 here that can run it, but I > never did use them much > for CP/M, except for using dbase that my dad used > onces on it once. > Have a baby XT board here with a nec c20, and some > 8bit isa scsi > cards, keeps telling myself I ought to figure if I > could run a cpm86 on > it. Particularly if it's a vanilla XT board, the answer is no reason you shouldn't. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 19:18:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:18:47 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <134726.34209.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462C7CD0.14293.977EF31@cclist.sydex.com>, <134726.34209.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462CEA77.9391.B2443B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2007 at 15:51, Chris M wrote: > But a '186 is merely an '86 with some other chips > tacked on. I don't know how V-8086 handles "additions" > as it emulates a peecee on a windows box, but it at > least seems that you could "add" on the ancillary '186 > functionality in the same way you add the other > components present on a peecee mobo. Yes, you probably could. The big problem that I see is while the 386/486/Pentium V86 mode is close to what an 80186 does, there are differences (itemized in the V86 mode description). They may not make any difference, but if they do, you're out of luck. Plus, setting up a V86 session is pretty involved. You need to have a protected mode server for the V86 session and set up all of the IDT/GDT/LDT stuff that goes along with it. It feels like a lot of work to me, but I could be mistaken. I'm assuming that you're going to host this thing on DOS; I don't know what provisions for V86 mode are built into Linux (never had a reason to look), but maybe that might be easier. Cheers, Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 23 19:24:20 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:20 -0400 Subject: 166MHz Alpha Multia for sale... Cheap... Message-ID: <462D4E34.1020709@sbcglobal.net> Time to trim the excess. Wish I had time & space for it. It's in the New Haven CT. area. I'd prefer not to ship, but I will... Make me an offer. IIRC, floppy, external SCSI riser, 64MB (I think) RAM, no HDD, slide-cover over the floppy disk. Also, I do believe I have a spare chip for the one that tends to fry. Dead tree documentation in binders included... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 19:32:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:32:21 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462CEDA5.26816.B30ADA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2007 at 18:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Wouldn't it take a fair while to reverse-engineer all the address decoding and > additional logic (such as for driving the LCD) in the system? i.e. just to > find out exactly what you have in order to start thinking about writing > software is reasonably non-trivial. That's why we have disassemblers, no? > It's probably nothing like as much as designing/building something from > scratch, but then at least with doing something from scratch there's the > benefit of knowing exactly how it fits together. Plus I suspect for many > people, designing from a box of chips ends up being more rewarding... Probably so--but then I said that I was lazy. ;-) Even in the "assemble it from chips" case, I'd rather use a Z180/Z280/64180/EZ80. Less wiring to do. > Hmm, do they? I passed up on some '386 ones recently (I was briefly tempted > mainly for the 40x2 displays). Some more SRAM would have been nice to have, > though... Well, look at this one on our favorite auction site: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260110039855 Quite a bit of stuff in there for $20. > From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared to a > typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to access an IDE > drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten details! :-) CF IDE is easy--it's 8 bit. HD IDE uses a 16-bit data path for sector data transfer, so that makes things a bit more involved. Otherwise, the register set looks pretty much like a WD1003 PC-AT type disk controller. Cheers, Chuck From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 23 19:34:38 2007 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'll be there again this year. I like to eat at an Indian restaurant in Centerville ... Will there be a classic computing meet? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 23 19:47:40 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:47:40 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462CEDA5.26816.B30ADA3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> <462CEDA5.26816.B30ADA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462D53AC.5090500@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, look at this one on our favorite auction site: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260110039855 > > Quite a bit of stuff in there for $20. Umm, is that the right auction? The shipping is $20. The terminal is $110. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 20:09:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:09:26 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462D53AC.5090500@mdrconsult.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <462CEDA5.26816.B30ADA3@cclist.sydex.com>, <462D53AC.5090500@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <462CF656.16683.B52A006@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2007 at 20:47, Doc Shipley wrote: > Umm, is that the right auction? The shipping is $20. The terminal > is $110. Misread the auction. ;( Forget it. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 20:30:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:30:14 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to attend this year, so please do post any info about a meet-up. I went last year, which was the first time I had gone since 1996 or so. I was pretty disappointed by the lack of old computer (or phone, my other collecting hobby) gear there. I did pick up a couple interesting items including a Radio Shack Videotex terminal (precursor to the CoCo) for $5 and a couple Decwriters from Don Kehoe. But in general, I've had better luck at some local fests. It's been my opinion for the last couple years that ebay is killing the hamfest market, at least for things I look for. What say you all? -j From rcini at optonline.net Mon Apr 23 20:47:55 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:47:55 -0400 Subject: The Computer Journal (TCJ) issues? Message-ID: All: In my research on this Hawthorne SBC I got (I contributed the disk images to Dave?s efforts), I discovered that it was covered in various forms in The Computer Journal (TCJ). I have many issues in the series but not all. So, I was wondering if anyone had the complete series and whether it was worth scanning and posting. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 23 21:39:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:39:18 -0500 Subject: HP MUX cable. References: <20070423211631.GA15036@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> Message-ID: <00f501c78619$c285ee10$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ed wrote... > Does anyone have the pinouts (schematics) for cable to connect HP 9000 E25 > with MUX (MDP)? E25 has a strange four-row socket (called DB78, afaik), > and MDP has normal DB9. I'd like to get this machine to work, and it's > the > only way to get a console. Thank you :-) I do not have this information available. But I definitely know someone off-list who does. If no one here gets you the info, let me know and I'll pursue my source. Jay From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 23 22:22:33 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:22:33 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: Message-ID: <04d901c78623$cc4ffd00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >(....I'm partial to just about any MC68k series systems that didn't >come from Cupertino). Personally, I'm partial to just about any machine which isn't hamstrung by being based around the lousy, prehistoric x86 architecture.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 23 23:01:09 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:01:09 +0100 Subject: CP/M survey References: <200704180704.l3I73XPp094745@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4625E3C9.26902.1F22A51D@cclist.sydex.com>, <46265549.70206@yahoo.co.uk><46260625.26139.1FA8DC7B@cclist.sydex.com> <46267CB8.2070302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01c78625$30f40980$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....Have a baby XT board here with a nec c20, and some 8bit isa scsi >cards, keeps telling myself I ought to figure if I could run a cpm86 >on it. If that's an NEC "v20" then you could even run CP/M-80 on it! When I built my first PC in 1990 I chose a motherboard which sported a v20, I was able to run CP/M-80 software from inside MS-DOS using a utility which I forget the name of now. I'm sure someone else on the list will be able to remember the name of the program. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 23 23:16:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:16:45 +0100 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> <462CEDA5.26816.B30ADA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....find out exactly what you have in order to start thinking >>about writing software is reasonably non-trivial. > > That's why we have disassemblers, no? Having reverse engineered the ROMs in a couple of old 6502 based Atari video games a few years back, it's not something I'd consider doing again in a hurry (and I had circuit diagrams to work from). Even with a good disassembler, it's a hell of a lot more involved than you'd think.... > Probably so--but then I said that I was lazy. ;-) Even in the >"assemble it from chips" case, I'd rather use a Z180/Z280/64180/EZ80. Designing a system from scratch would be *FAR* easier! > CF IDE is easy--it's 8 bit. HD IDE uses a 16-bit data path for >sector data transfer.... The original IDE drives used 8-bit transfers (I had one in my first XT), even to this day there is still be a signal on the IDE interface to force the use of 8-bit mode. At least one of the IDE interfaces available for 8-bit Atari machines uses the drive in this mode. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 23 23:32:01 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:32:01 +0100 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004401c78629$80faf520$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > It's been my opinion for the last couple years that ebay is killing >the hamfest market, at least for things I look for.... I don't know if eBay is exactly to blame for that. Here in the UK the "interesting" stuff started getting displaced by piles of PC junk about 10 - 12 years ago (I can get PC stuff anywhere, without travelling long distances to radio rallies). But then again, if you avoid the traders in the main tents and concentrate on the "carboot" or "flea market" sections there's usually more than enough goodies to be had. :-) TTFN - Pete (G1NHD - lapsed). From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 00:00:50 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:00:50 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <004401c78629$80faf520$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> <004401c78629$80faf520$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <51ea77730704232200g1fc69165s802cd88d3e67763@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/07, Ensor wrote: > I don't know if eBay is exactly to blame for that. > > Here in the UK the "interesting" stuff started getting displaced by piles of > PC junk about 10 - 12 years ago (I can get PC stuff anywhere, without > travelling long distances to radio rallies). But then again, if you avoid > the traders in the main tents and concentrate on the "carboot" or "flea > market" sections there's usually more than enough goodies to be had. :-) I'd agree, it's much the same way here. The indoor only 'fests (or rallies :) are never as rewarding as those that allow outdoor (and generally no-charge) sales. In fact I rarely even look inside as it's mostly retail vendors these days, or the "professional" junk-sellers. Also right-on about the PC factor. "Oh, you're into old computers, eh? Well I've got this pallette of 286 clones back here...." From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 00:16:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:16:08 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2007 at 5:16, Ensor wrote: > Having reverse engineered the ROMs in a couple of old 6502 based Atari video > games a few years back, it's not something I'd consider doing again in a > hurry (and I had circuit diagrams to work from). I still routinely disassemble drivers and ROMs--and the tools have gotten hugely better. A good diassembler such as IDA is wonderful. > The original IDE drives used 8-bit transfers (I had one in my first XT), > even to this day there is still be a signal on the IDE interface to force > the use of 8-bit mode. It's safe to say that there hasn't been an IDE drive manufactured within the last 10 years that supports 8 bit data transfer mode. Even many of those that claim to support it don't (probably just vestigal "cut and paste" text). I once went through my stack of 320MB and up 3.5" IDE drives and couldn't find a single one that actually supported 8 bit PIO Mostly, IOCS16- is ignored on most drives. There was a considerable amount of debate in X3T10 when ATA- 2 was being hammered out as to whether IOCS16- should even be included in the list of signals (it was removed when X3T10 defined ATA-3). It was reinstated in ATA-5 on request from the CF group. On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're going to buy today. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 23 18:37:00 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:37:00 -0400 Subject: Quick survey on equipment Message-ID: <0JGZ00BH65JQJAZ5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quick survey on equipment > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:30:04 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > The problem was that CP/M needs RAM starting at location 0, the >> >TRS-80 has the BASIC ROMs there and starts RAM at, IIRC, 0x4000. >> >> Hmm, same problem as the Model III then (ISTR that had its ROM located at >> $0000 too, hence the reason for the Model IV). > >Exactly. The Model 1 and Model 3 are actually quite similar machines >internally, to the extent that a Model 3 ROM set will run on a Model 1 >(if sutiably addressed). Admittedly the Model 3 makes more use of the Z80 >I/O ports (almost all I/O on the M1 is memory-mapped for some unknwon >reason), but the memory nap, video, etc, are the same. Maybe because the IO instructions are slow compared to something like (8080 neumonics) Mov M,A. Also since they used a Memory mapped video that ate 1k of space along with the 12k of rom why not do the keyboard that way. Actually there are quite a few IO mapped ports on the M1 but the keyboard and Video are in the memory map. Allison > >The M4 has quite a few changes over the M3. It has the >software-selectable memory maps, allowing RAM at location 0 for CP/M. And >a much improvded video section with a 6845 CRTC chip (and not a >fixed-configuration row of TTL of the older 2 machines) thus giving am 80 >column text display, etc. > >> >....The second solution was an add-on circuit board.... >> >> Hmm, sounds like these are probably going to be as easy to get hold of now >> as hen's teeth...? > >I don't recall there being any published schematics for them either, so >if you want to build one you'll have to design it yourself. > >> >> Think I'll just get a Z80 Second Processor for my Beeb instead (far less >> hassle). > >I didn't think those were _that_ common... > >-tony From hansvdpuijl at scarlet.be Tue Apr 24 00:04:42 2007 From: hansvdpuijl at scarlet.be (hansvdpuijl at scarlet.be) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:04:42 +0200 Subject: help to indentify selectric Message-ID: Hello, Those terminals are based on the IBM Selectric typewriter. I have used them +- 1975 and must have the IBMmanual of it but d'not ask me where. If you should need it I can search for it and copy. Groetjes, Old-Hans tsg53939 at scarlet.be --- Scarlet ADSL Unlimited - Only 24,95 euro per month. Max download Speed up to 6 Mbps, download volume of 30 GB. Order now... From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 24 01:23:41 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:23:41 -0700 Subject: Help with IMSAI docs In-Reply-To: <004401c78629$80faf520$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> <004401c78629$80faf520$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <462DA26D.5060403@sbcglobal.net> I picked up an IMSAI turnkey computer with dual disk drives and am looking for some docs on the boards. It uses an MPU-B card which has an 8085 and some software in a 2716. I can't seem to find a manual on the web for it, nor for the DIO & PDS II board (which are the disk controller boards) can anyone point me to a manual or schematic? I assume this boots from the EPROM and talks to a serial port on the MPU-B card. No cables, or software came with it. Here's all of the boards it has: MPU-B RAM III Rev 1 SIO Rev 3 PIO Rev 1.1 (Mits, not IMSAI) DIO Rev 1.1 Disk Controller PDS II STD Rev 1 Data Separator (w/above) D.C Hays Micromodem 100 The dual floppy system uses CalComp, Caldisk 142M 8" drives. I would love to try and get this running (CP/M?). I probed around the serial connectors, but do not see any data coming out after reset. Before I start to trace down the boot EPROM circuit, I thought I'd ask here first. Here photos of the system: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/imsai_8030_1.jpg http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/imsai_disk_1.jpg Thanks Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 24 01:28:24 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:28:24 -0700 Subject: Another unknown computer panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462DA388.2070404@sbcglobal.net> Anyone recognize this computer panel? I believe it's from an IBM machine but there are no markings I can find. Lot's of nice switches and lights. I would like to animate this someday. Medium size photo: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/ibm_panel_1.jpg Large photo: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/ibm_panel_1.JPG Thanks, Bob From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 24 01:53:01 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:53:01 +0200 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: <200704231719.l3NHJsOV004323@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: maandag 23 april 2007 19:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: KY11 - ever debug one? > > [...snip...] > > Also, my read of the KY11B docs say that I should not have J2 > & J3 connected unless I'm in maint mode. (so pulling RDY high > should be fine) > > Should the KY11 work (as the docs say) with only J1 > connected? Anything obvious I am missing? > > -brad Yes, the 11/34 boots RT11 and runs fine, J2 and J3 disconnected. And since I must enter 165020 LAD START to startup the diagnostic code in the PROM on the M9312, I can tell that the console is also working fine while J2 and J3 are disconnected. I have J2 and J3 normally always connected, and never had problems. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 02:27:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:27:05 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're > going to buy today. So, is there anything stopping someone from using a MicroDrive? It should be more than fast enough. Peace... Sridhar From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Apr 24 02:32:48 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another unknown computer panel In-Reply-To: <462DA388.2070404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20070424073248.37168.qmail@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Anyone recognize this computer panel? I believe it's > from an IBM machine > but there are no markings I can find. > Lot's of nice switches and lights. I would like to > animate this someday. Looks like it's from a data channel (I/O processor). I have no idea what system it belonged to. --Bill From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 24 01:41:05 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:41:05 -0300 Subject: Junkbox parts... Message-ID: <01C78622.78A8FFE0@mse-d03> A couple of relevant sites: http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy325/spring-2006/docs/8042.pdf http://www.beyondlogic.org/keyboard/keybrd.htm mike ******************************** Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for > small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. > Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how > to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and > commands they take? It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 24 02:56:32 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:56:32 +0200 Subject: RX01 in SIMH - how to do it? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi, I feel like a fool ... I just can't get an RX01 drive configured and attached in SIMH. If I boot RT11 from a virtual RL02, and do .SH DEV, the DX driver is listed as "Not installed". On SY: is DX.SYS and DXX.SYS, and since RT11 answered to the command ".set rx0 locked" "?KMON-F-File not found SY:RXX.SYS", I copied DXX.SYS to RXX.SYS ... and reboot of course. When I enter ".set rx0 locked" the response is now "?KMON-F-Invalid set parameter". I break to SIMH and enter "att rx0 simrx01.dat" and the SIMH response is RX: creating new file RX: buffering file in memory When I continue, and enter .SH DEV, DX is "Not installed". The CSR for DX is in SIMH 177174, the default 177170 is assigned to DY. I know that both drivers normally have the same CSR, I don't see a problem here. So, how do I attached and access (!) a virtual RX01 floppy? Has anybody used RX01 in SIMH before? thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 24 04:15:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:15:41 -0600 Subject: Another unknown computer panel In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:28:24 -0700. <462DA388.2070404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <462DA388.2070404 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Anyone recognize this computer panel? Nope, but whatever it is, its definately cool looking! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 24 04:17:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:17:17 -0600 Subject: help to indentify selectric In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:04:42 +0200. Message-ID: In article , "hansvdpuijl\@scarlet\.be" writes: > If you should need it I can search for it and copy. Yes, I would most definately like to see it! Maybe we can get it scanned into bitsavers?!? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 24 05:27:10 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:27:10 -0400 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:09:32 +0200." <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F979@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200704241027.l3OARAY0021951@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: >FIY, the connector pinout is as follows on the console board (ASCII art): > __________________________________ > | > | 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 <---- row of pins near edge of the board > | 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 <---- row of pins to the "center" of the bo >ard > | > ^card edge The docs say pin 1 is on the left side of the console board and the left side of the KY11 (facing the chips). Or at least they say the "red stripe" should be on the left. (this is J1) can you confirm that's how you have it wired? ps: thanks very much for trying it with J2/J3 disconnected! -brad From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 24 06:01:10 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:01:10 +0200 Subject: KY11 - ever debug one? In-Reply-To: <200704241027.l3OARAY0021951@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: dinsdag 24 april 2007 12:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: KY11 - ever debug one? > > > "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > > >FIY, the connector pinout is as follows on the console board > (ASCII art): > > __________________________________ > > | > > | 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 <---- row of pins near > edge of the board > > | 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 <---- row of pins to the > "center" of the bo > >ard > > | > > ^card edge > > The docs say pin 1 is on the left side of the console board > and the left side of the KY11 (facing the chips). Or at > least they say the "red stripe" > should be on the left. (this is J1) > > can you confirm that's how you have it wired? > > ps: thanks very much for trying it with J2/J3 disconnected! > > -brad ERROR!! Sorry. The ASCII pinout is *not* of the console board, but of the M7859! I have the "scribbled" printset with me. You are correct on J1 on the console board, pin #1 is near the edge. Typical (...), in my notes, I have just one comment near the 7442 (on KY-1), saying pin #2 (KY1 STOP L) gets never active ... Is there some info written in the M7859 manual? In the end of that manual is also a source code listing of the 8008 assembler code. Useful, if you put the logic analyser on the databus, to see what the cpu is executing. Perhaps that can explain why you get WAIT. Is the 8008 executing the states you mentioned just once? I don't know the 8008, but what if E16/E17 is defective. Is the 8008 putting out an address, reading data? Is that data correct? - Henk. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Apr 24 03:04:49 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:04:49 +0200 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <462CD342.21201.AC99CF0@cclist.sydex.com> <462D4596.60303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462DBA21.8040609@iais.fraunhofer.de> Jules Richardson schrieb: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:23, Allison wrote: >> >>> To run CP/M you don't need a lot but the minimal and useful complete >>> system are not far apart. >>> >>> Z80: Whatever you have! >>> RAM: 48-64k of ram 48k will be enough to run a lot of software, but 64k >>> is only 2 61256s (a 32kx8 SRAM). CP/M will run in 32k but limited >>> application software will fit. The only requirement is ram starts >>> at 0000h and be contigious for at least 20K(minimum) after boot. >> >> If I were to approach a project like this, I'd probably go find an >> old junker credit-card or POS terminal ... > > Wouldn't it take a fair while to reverse-engineer all the address > decoding and additional logic (such as for driving the LCD) in the > system? i.e. just to find out exactly what you have in order to start > thinking about writing software is reasonably non-trivial. Depends on what LCD you have. There are "intelligent" ones with an own controller and row/column multiplexers which simply look like an 8bit I/O port to the system. They already have a character rom built in, so you just send them cursor positioning and ASCII codes. Making a terminal out of it is a matter of some afternoon coding. There are other intelligent "graphical" LCDs which provide >= quarter VGA resolution or alike, that feed bit maps through the same 8 bit I/O port; these are more flexible but require more CPU horse power. I made the experience that a plain Z80 with 4MHz is well occupied with controlling the screen I/O, so better make such a graphic terminal a separate subsystem to a real CP/M box. Then there are the "VGA" LCDs which have RGB inputs - you need a normal CRT controller for that. You can scrap one from a Hercules or EGA/VGA card; both are connectable to a Z80 bus with a few TTLs, or even take one of the numerous 6845 designes but I wonder if this is worth the effort nowadays. And finally, you can obtain dumb LCD displays with hundreds of row/column pins that allow individual addressing of each pixel directly. Not for the faint-hearted, particularly for the PCB design and the connectors. I won't recommend those, as you end up rebuilding the logic that all the "intelligent" displays already provide. > Most of these things have lots of SRAM (128-512K) > Hmm, do they? I passed up on some '386 ones recently (I was briefly > tempted mainly for the 40x2 displays). Some more SRAM would have been > nice to have, though... You might infact look for embedded systems with a Z180 or better Z280 CPU (PLCC84) they have most of the stuff like MMU and DMA already built in which one needs to make a system with more than 64k. There are already SRAMs with 128kByte available, so no longer needs to build complex DRAM refresh schemes. > >> Just buffer some data and address lines off for a floppy or IDE > > interface > > From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared > to a typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to > access an IDE drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten > details! :-) Effectively, the software logic is the same. You have some registers where you put in head/track/sector information, wait for some ready status flag and read the data out or feed a block of data in. Differences exist between the layout of the registers, but are actually no stumbling block for any Z80 programmer. IDE is a little bit more comfortable as you don't have to deal with low-level disk formatting and bad-block handling. Blocking/beblocking to convert between 128 byte sectors and 512 byte disk sectors is still required, unless you leave this to CP/M+ (CP/M 2.2 IIRC didn't have this directly). OTOH, one could program an FDC to use 128 byte blocks on disk easily; which then will cause trouble with data exchange to a PC, however. OTTH, the logic for an FDC is typically more complex than for an IDE interface, usually because of some monoflop-based data separator, including some adjustment of resistors/capacitors. Personally, I tend to use CF<->IDE adapters and build the common three circuit TTL-IDE interface. -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Apr 24 02:37:48 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:37:48 +0200 Subject: Junkbox parts... In-Reply-To: <0JGY004DFIZ4PYJ0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGY004DFIZ4PYJ0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462DB3CC.10605@iais.fraunhofer.de> Allison schrieb: > The question on junkbox z80 systems made me remember that > old 386 and 486 system besides providing a raft of 32kx8 SRAMS > also had a keyboard interface chip.. > > I have a few salvaged 8742(smae as 8242) from PC hardware > of the AT class 80386-486 level. > > Without resorting to eraseing the Eproms (8742) and reprogramming > them I've wondered if.. > > Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for > small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. > Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how > to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and > commands they take? > > See http://www.arne.si/~mauricio/kbdfaq.html for abundant information on the keyboard, and programming the controller. Basically, you connect it to a z80 the same way as it is done in the PeeCee - wire it to i/o port 60/64h and use the same logic to program raw commands. Normally, in homwbrew systems, people tend not to use a 8042 pulled from a scrap board but talk to the keyboard directly, through the serial protocol described above. The keyboard itself typically contained some 8048 controller to scan the kbd matrix. I don't have the exact circuitry for the 8042 UPI at hand right now, but the schematic can be found in the IBM AT Technical Reference Manual. -- Holger P.S.: Hopefully this will get through to the list, as the listmaster rejects RFC compliant digitally signed S/MIME mails :-((((((( From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Apr 24 04:42:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:42:32 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1177407752.18991.2.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-04-23 at 23:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > A European PC with a CGA card will output 60Hz NTSC video.... > > > > Whilst this is perfectly true, IIRC the IBM CGA monitor takes the "RGBI" > > signal produced by the card, not the composite one. > > Indeed it does. And on an European PC, that RGBI signal is the same spec > as in the US version, that is, with 60Hz vertical sync frequency, etc. > > It is possible to re-program the 6845 CRTC chip on the CGA card to get > 50Hz vertical. I have a PAL encoder box that plugs into the DE9 connector > on a CGA card and which came with a little bit of software to do just > that. But no IBM machine did that as standard in the 'European' version. It's possible to program the CRTC on an EGA card to generate 640x400 at 15Hz and tweak an old CCTV monitor down to scan at that rate. Bloody hideous to use for any length of time, but I was more impressed that I got it to work. The two phono sockets break out to a header on the board, so I birds-nested some resistors to generate a monochrome RGBI signal and composite sync onto the pins. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Apr 24 05:48:49 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:48:49 +0100 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> , <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1177411729.18991.5.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 03:27 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're > > going to buy today. > > So, is there anything stopping someone from using a MicroDrive? It > should be more than fast enough. I have microdrives, I have CF-to-IDE adaptors, I have copious amounts of junk. I also have way too many other projects I need to spend time on (and yet other projects where I need to take the time to chase up the people I hired in because I don't have time to do them). It sounds too fun not to add to the list though ;-) Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 06:46:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:46:49 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH00069Q3BWLQP2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:47:34 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Just buffer some data and address lines off for a floppy or IDE > > interface > > From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared to a >typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to access an IDE >drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten details! :-) IDE (or CF) is easier than floppy. First, it's buffered so you do not have the tight timing problem of FDC data transfer rates. Second, the the interface is around the same as for an PPI or serial port more or less. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 06:48:58 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:48:58 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH000EJA3FG92Y8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:32:21 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 23 Apr 2007 at 18:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared to a >> typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to access an IDE >> drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten details! :-) > >CF IDE is easy--it's 8 bit. HD IDE uses a 16-bit data path for >sector data transfer, so that makes things a bit more involved. >Otherwise, the register set looks pretty much like a WD1003 PC-AT >type disk controller. > >Cheers, >Chuck One thing, you do not have to use D8-15! Sur you give up half the data in a sector but you also eliminate a lot of hardware. That and even an old 100MB drive will yeild 50mb which by CP/M standards is the world in a bottle. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 06:54:23 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:54:23 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH00068P3OHLE53@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: "Ensor" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:16:45 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi, > > > > > CF IDE is easy--it's 8 bit. HD IDE uses a 16-bit data path for > >sector data transfer.... > >The original IDE drives used 8-bit transfers (I had one in my first XT), >even to this day there is still be a signal on the IDE interface to force >the use of 8-bit mode. It's rarely implemented and its not a "line" it was part of the command set. The line IO16 is an output that goes high when sector transfers happen. I have a few XT IDE and of the 4 only one drive (20mb) does 8bit the rest depend on the ISA bus card to do translation (8-16). > >At least one of the IDE interfaces available for 8-bit Atari machines uses >the drive in this mode. > > > TTFN - Pete. What drive? YOu can of course use CF that has 8bit mode or just ignore the high 8bits (loose half the space) for a simpler interface. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 07:06:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:06:25 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH0004JX48JQ1M4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:16:08 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 24 Apr 2007 at 5:16, Ensor wrote: > >> The original IDE drives used 8-bit transfers (I had one in my first XT), >> even to this day there is still be a signal on the IDE interface to force >> the use of 8-bit mode. > >It's safe to say that there hasn't been an IDE drive manufactured >within the last 10 years that supports 8 bit data transfer mode. >Even many of those that claim to support it don't (probably just >vestigal "cut and paste" text). I once went through my stack of >320MB and up 3.5" IDE drives and couldn't find a single one that >actually supported 8 bit PIO Same here and I have IDE drives all the way down to 10mb. A few like the WD TIDBIT80 seem to do it and none of my 2.5" drives from 160mb up do it. All of my Connor 21/40/60/80mb drives do not, nor do any of the collection of Seagates from 80mb through 500mb. I also have a potload of WD drives and I suspect a few smaller ones (20mb) but have found nothing documented that says they do and haven't tried them > Mostly, IOCS16- is ignored on most >drives. There was a considerable amount of debate in X3T10 when ATA- >2 was being hammered out as to whether IOCS16- should even be >included in the list of signals (it was removed when X3T10 defined >ATA-3). It was reinstated in ATA-5 on request from the CF group. All the vendor docs I've seen seem to make IO16 an output as a notification that the current transfer is 16bit. >On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're >going to buy today. I've heard that was true of any drive over 500mb and have not seen anything over 80mb that does. Me I keep saying if you really need the simplicity of 8b transfers and the low cost that comes from a surplus IDE drive just ignore the high 8bits and enjoy it. There's no harm from that. So what if half the storage is unused, likely the drive is large anyway. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 07:11:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:11:50 -0400 Subject: Junkbox parts... Message-ID: <0JH0005WL4HKENQJ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > > >> Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for >> small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. >> Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how >> to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and >> commands they take? > >It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. >Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered >why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. I don't have the PC AT Techref, any hope for that on line? Also are the later versions (the AT version used a 8041A and the 386 and later versions use 8042 [more ram, more rom and faster]) the same as that spec? Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 24 09:34:12 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:34:12 -0700 Subject: Junkbox parts... In-Reply-To: <462DB3CC.10605@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: >From: Holger Veit ---snip--- >> >See http://www.arne.si/~mauricio/kbdfaq.html for abundant information on >the keyboard, >and programming the controller. Basically, you connect it to a z80 the same >way as it is done >in the PeeCee - wire it to i/o port 60/64h and use the same logic to >program raw commands. >Normally, in homwbrew systems, people tend not to use a 8042 pulled from a >scrap board but talk >to the keyboard directly, through the serial protocol described above. The >keyboard itself typically >contained some 8048 controller to scan the kbd matrix. > ---snip--- Hi Good idea! I don't think I'd had thought of it. shows imagination. It isn't ASCII yet as I recall but not that hard to handle in software. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:02:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:02:52 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: With all of this recent 8-bit and CP/M talk, it's prompted me to do a little digging on what it would take to put together a CP/'M machine on my own. I already have a couple of commercially-produced boxes. This is about taking a Z-80, some RAM, some ROM and a storage unit and making it run CP/M. I've been reading the various threads, so I have a general idea of what has to happen, but I'm still fuzzy on a few specifics, no doubt due to my lack of deep experience with the Z-80. The point of ROM vs RAM at $0000 has been gone over a few times. Do "standard" CP/M machines use a shadow-ROM technique, or what, to cold-start? We used to use a trick with the 68000 that would map ROM at $000000, _and_ at some higher address, with the first few instructions jumping to the higher ROM image, , and either an I/O pin that toggled the address mapping for the lower ROM image, or just watching for the first pulse from A23, such that the act of jumping up to the higher ROM address itself would remove ROM from the bottom of the memory map, revealing RAM. How did CP/M systems handle 64K of RAM? Was there one primary way it was done, or did every hardware vendor do it differently? I should probably just confine my efforts to 48K of RAM and use the upper 16K for a boot ROM, but if it's easy to support 64K of RAM, why not? To confirm, the minimal I/O system is some flavor of serial interface for console I/O (presumably piped to a display smart enough to handle ANSI codes), and some form of block-addressable storage with a CP/M filesystem, right? (I'm ignoring handy I/O like parallel printer ports and 8255-type GPIO and the like, for the moment) Is it required that the storage unit be writable? Is there a minimum size for the display? That wouldn't matter for hanging a VT100-equivalent off of the console port, but if I were to use some flavor of textual LCD, it would very much matter. To find another way to ask, would the body of extant CP/M apps freak out if you try to run them on a display that's under 40 chars wide or under 24 chars tall? Do they expect 64 chars wide or 80 chars wide? I don't think the OS itself actually cares how wide or tall the display is, but perhaps some of the CUSPs, like DIR, might. Rather than taking a bare Z80, wiring on a Z8530, an SRAM or two and an EPROM, I was contemplating beefing up my 1976 SDS Z-80 Starter Kit to the point where it could run CP/M. I've written about it here before, when I first got it, to remind those that don't know or don't remember what it is, it has a ~2MHz Z80, 1K of 21L02 SRAM, room for one more K, one 2716 with "ZBUG", two empty 2716 sockets (one attached to an EPROM programming circuit), a keypad and 7-segment LEDs, a largish wire-wrap area, and two S-100 slots. Presuming I wire the SRAM, a larger-capacity EPROM, and some serial device into the wire-wrap area, is there anything I should look for in an S-100 card that would be interesting to install? A video card (rather than a serial console), perhaps? I think I have one or two S-100 video cards, but I was never clear on how one attaches a keyboard to that rig - is there an ASCII keyboard port typically provided on an S-100 video card, or is that a separate peripheral? Thanks for any and all answers to my noobish CP/M questions, -ethan From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Tue Apr 24 10:08:45 2007 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dayton vs. epay In-Reply-To: <200704241329.l3ODSkvv033399@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704241329.l3ODSkvv033399@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I think anyone who disputes that epay hasn't taken over hamfests is delusional. That being said, there are still vendors who show up at the bigger ones (like Dayton and Timonium) and they make the occasional bargain worthwhile. As far as classic computing is concerned, I don't see Vax 11/750s anymore at hamfests: it's all peecees. That doesn't eliminate the possibility of a mysterious discovery. If the weather is fine (always a chancy proposition at Dayton), then what is finer than digging through boxes of junk for the occasional fine item? Peripherals seem to be in greater supply than processors and cables abound. So, take the good with the bad. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Apr 24 10:13:02 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:13:02 -0700 Subject: Another unknown computer panel In-Reply-To: <20070424073248.37168.qmail@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070424073248.37168.qmail@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704240813.02266.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 24 April 2007 00:32, William Maddox wrote: > --- Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Anyone recognize this computer panel? I believe it's > > from an IBM machine > > but there are no markings I can find. > > Lot's of nice switches and lights. I would like to > > animate this someday. > > Looks like it's from a data channel (I/O processor). > I have no idea what system it belonged to. I agree with Bill - it sure looks like the console for a channel controller. But I don't have any idea for what system, either. > > --Bill -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 10:21:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:21:18 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <0JH000EJA3FG92Y8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH000EJA3FG92Y8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462DBDFE.12386.E5E84EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2007 at 7:48, Allison wrote: > One thing, you do not have to use D8-15! Sur you give up half the data > in a sector but you also eliminate a lot of hardware. That and even an > old 100MB drive will yeild 50mb which by CP/M standards is the world in > a bottle. I've seen that done on at least one TRS-80 lashup. You need to remember that your sectors thus accessed are 256 bytes and not 512, which may not be a bad thingl for CP/M. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 10:36:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:36:07 -0700 Subject: Another unknown computer panel In-Reply-To: <200704240813.02266.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <20070424073248.37168.qmail@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <200704240813.02266.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <462DC177.31241.E6C1558@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2007 at 8:13, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I agree with Bill - it sure looks like the console for a channel controller. > But I don't have any idea for what system, either. Seems to be from a S/360. Switches at the bottom directly correspond to the S/360 CCW and the indicators at the top, a S/360 CSW. (Check them against your green card). --Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 24 11:35:56 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:35:56 -0500 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca> > The point of ROM vs RAM at $0000 has been gone over a few times. Do > "standard" CP/M machines use a shadow-ROM technique, or what, to > cold-start? We used to use a trick with the 68000 that would map ROM > at $000000, _and_ at some higher address, with the first few > instructions jumping to the higher ROM image, , and either an I/O pin > that toggled the address mapping for the lower ROM image, or just > watching for the first pulse from A23, such that the act of jumping up > to the higher ROM address itself would remove ROM from the bottom of > the memory map, revealing RAM. There are many ways to accomplish getting RAM at 0, even though the CPU has to boot from there. Some systems force a JMP instruction onto the BUS during the first three fetches, which transfers control to a ROM at a higher location. An easy technique is to have the boot ROM appear in two places (0 and somewhere else), and remove the select at 0 (replacing it with RAM) after the first three fetches - the first instruction in the boot ROM has to be a JMP to the actual boot ROM address (+3, otherwise you would infinite loop on the startup JMP). One simple way to do this is to use the select for the higher location to disable the zero one (which will occur immediately after you JMP there). The problem with either of those is that the ROM remains in the memory map and takes up valuable RAM space. I prefer to have the ROM copy itself to RAM, jump there, and then disable the physical ROM via an I/O event - that way you are running from RAM, and once booted, have a full 64k available to the OS (which must not reference the boot ROM for I/O obviously). > How did CP/M systems handle 64K of RAM? Was there one primary way it > was done, or did every hardware vendor do it differently? I should > probably just confine my efforts to 48K of RAM and use the upper 16K > for a boot ROM, but if it's easy to support 64K of RAM, why not? CP/M covers a wide array of hardware - lots of different memory configurations, although typically you must have ram at 0000 and it must extend contiguously upward from there - the more the better. Many system has "holes" for memory mapped I/O, video, disk (N* controller comes to mind). In general, as much as you can arrange in a contiguous block from 0000 up is best. > To confirm, the minimal I/O system is some flavor of serial interface > for console I/O (presumably piped to a display smart enough to handle > ANSI codes), and some form of block-addressable storage with a CP/M > filesystem, right? (I'm ignoring handy I/O like parallel printer > ports and 8255-type GPIO and the like, for the moment) Is it required > that the storage unit be writable? Is there a minimum size for the > display? That wouldn't matter for hanging a VT100-equivalent off of > the console port, but if I were to use some flavor of textual LCD, it > would very much matter. To find another way to ask, would the body of > extant CP/M apps freak out if you try to run them on a display that's > under 40 chars wide or under 24 chars tall? Do they expect 64 chars > wide or 80 chars wide? I don't think the OS itself actually cares how > wide or tall the display is, but perhaps some of the CUSPs, like DIR, > might. CP/M itself is just a TTY interface - so it will run on just about any format display - applications however are a different story, and as there was no standard, there is no complete answer to your question. 80x24 as probably as close to "standard" as you will get, and would give you the maximum compatibility. You will also want a decent set of control codes (cursor position, clear screen, clear to end of screen/line etc.). A TTY that emulates some well known terminal from the era may make things easier as many apps had prevonfigured setups for common TTYs. > Rather than taking a bare Z80, wiring on a Z8530, an SRAM or two and > an EPROM, I was contemplating beefing up my 1976 SDS Z-80 Starter Kit > to the point where it could run CP/M. I've written about it here > before, when I first got it, to remind those that don't know or don't > remember what it is, it has a ~2MHz Z80, 1K of 21L02 SRAM, room for > one more K, one 2716 with "ZBUG", two empty 2716 sockets (one attached > to an EPROM programming circuit), a keypad and 7-segment LEDs, a > largish wire-wrap area, and two S-100 slots. Presuming I wire the > SRAM, a larger-capacity EPROM, and some serial device into the > wire-wrap area, is there anything I should look for in an S-100 card > that would be interesting to install? A video card (rather than a > serial console), perhaps? I think I have one or two S-100 video > cards, but I was never clear on how one attaches a keyboard to that > rig - is there an ASCII keyboard port typically provided on an S-100 > video card, or is that a separate peripheral? A video card will chew up valuable RAM, and many of them are only 16x64, but it does let you do real-time screen updates, games etc. Some video cards had a parallel keyboard port, many didn't - Usually it was just an 8-bit parallel port with 7 data bits for the ASCII keycode, and the 8th bit used for a key down/up indicator. You could also have a serially interfaced keyboard. The important thing to understand is that CP/M doesn't specify a display or keyboard - pretty much any interface you might decide on can be made to work under CP/M (within reason of course). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 24 10:32:55 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:32:55 -0500 Subject: Another unknown computer panel In-Reply-To: <462DA388.2070404@sbcglobal.net> References: <462DA388.2070404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <462E2327.90805@yahoo.co.uk> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Anyone recognize this computer panel? I believe it's from an IBM machine > but there are no markings I can find. > Lot's of nice switches and lights. I would like to animate this someday. No idea, but it's a shame the columns aren't quite "complete" or you could just about get away with using it as a pixel display for a game of pong ;-) Nice find - I'm glad people are saving this stuff even if they can't save the entire machine. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:01:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:01:24 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > The point of ROM vs RAM at $0000 has been gone over a few times. Do > > "standard" CP/M machines use a shadow-ROM technique, or what, to > > cold-start? > > There are many ways to accomplish getting RAM at 0, even though the CPU > has to boot from there. I'm with you there. > Some systems force a JMP instruction onto the BUS during the first three > fetches, which transfers control to a ROM at a higher location. That seems like it would take a bit of extra circuitry to do. > An easy technique is to have the boot ROM appear in two places (0 and > somewhere else), and remove the select at 0 (replacing it with RAM) > after the first three fetches... Hmm... that's a trick I haven't seen used in the 68000 world. > The problem with either of those is that the ROM remains in the memory > map and takes up valuable RAM space. Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? That certainly takes care of how to handle 64K of RAM - just get rid of the ROM from the memory map as soon as possible. With my other experience with 8-bit micros, I didn't expect that this was a viable techique. The systems I am familiar with pretty much require that you keep the ROMs around - even with the C-64, which will let you bank out ROMs and run from RAM, folks didn't tend to completely ditch the Kernel ROM. Of course, Commodore machines don't have a "real" operating system as such, and not even a DOS in the sense of an Apple II or a TRS-80 - the routines in the ROM were commonly used by applications like Zork that didn't care about BASIC, but they did care that the ROMs had enough low-level I/O stuff to read and write disk blocks, etc. > CP/M covers a wide array of hardware - lots of different memory configurations, > although typically you must have ram at 0000 and it must extend contiguously > upward from there - the more the better. Right. I know that there are *many* CP/M hardware configurations; I am trying to get down the nub of as minimal a hardware design as possible. > > To confirm, the minimal I/O system is some flavor of serial interface > > for console I/O (presumably piped to a display smart enough to handle > > ANSI codes), and some form of block-addressable storage with a CP/M > > filesystem, right? > CP/M itself is just a TTY interface - so it will run on just about any > format display - applications however are a different story, and as there > was no standard, there is no complete answer to your question. 80x24 as > probably as close to "standard" as you will get, and would give you the > maximum compatibility. OK. That's not unexpected. > You will also want a decent set of control codes > (cursor position, clear screen, clear to end of screen/line etc.). A TTY > that emulates some well known terminal from the era may make things > easier as many apps had prevonfigured setups for common TTYs. Sure. For the minimal system I have in mind, I'm planning on a VT100 or some modern machine running a terminal emulator (Kermit, et al.) to handle screen formatting. > A video card will chew up valuable RAM, and many of them are only 16x64, > but it does let you do real-time screen updates, games etc. Ah... now we are onto something - games... are there many games for CP/M that require a video card, or were most happy with whatever sort of TTY-type device (ANSI codes or not) was out there? Thanks for the clarification, Dave, -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 24 11:03:23 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:03:23 -0700 Subject: Another unknown computer panel Message-ID: <462E2A4B.5090001@bitsavers.org> well, it's not a 2860 selector channel panel, though the design is contemporary with what you have http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/2860.HTM it may be a 2870 multiplexer channel. haven't been able to locate a picture of its CE panel, though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 11:12:10 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:12:10 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2007, at 9:30 PM, Jason T wrote: > It's been my opinion for the last couple years that ebay is killing > the hamfest market, at least for things I look for. What say you all? Last *couple* years?? Sheesh, try the last six or seven, at least. It has also dramatically changed the nature of the surplus market. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue Apr 24 11:14:34 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dayton vs. epay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <895990.3095.qm@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Mark KAHRS wrote: If the > weather is fine (always > a chancy proposition at Dayton), then what is finer > than digging > through boxes of junk for the occasional fine item? I have to admit - it's fun. I don't set my expectations too high so I'm always pleased when something unusual does turn up. -Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 24 11:24:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:24:04 -0700 Subject: Another unknown computer panel (is a 2870 panel) Message-ID: <462E2F24.1090909@bitsavers.org> I located the FE manual for the 2870 in the CHM archives, and it appears to match. I'll get scans of that and the 2860 manuals up in the next couple of days. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:30:20 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:30:20 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730704240930yd94b986u730787eaf2a0b259@mail.gmail.com> On 4/24/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > Last *couple* years?? Sheesh, try the last six or seven, at > least. It has also dramatically changed the nature of the surplus > market. You're probably right. Maybe it was only in the last couple years I started giving up on coming home with something really cool at every 'fest. You've still got to look in all your favorite spots, though. Just last Sunday I was heading home from a 'fest in Wisconsin that gave up very little and stopped at the thrift store near my old apartment. After much digging and a double-take because I couldn't believe what I found, an HP 35 calculator pops up from under the junk. And they even managed to not lose the AC adaptor. It's all about the hunt, I guess... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 11:35:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:35:02 -0700 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: , <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca>, Message-ID: <462DCF46.2639.EA2075B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2007 at 12:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not > to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to > keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? Nope. CP/M installations are typically self-contained, though there are a few systems that keep ROM around for I/O servicing. Since you'll be writing your own boot code, you can do ROM mapping however you'd like. A simple way is to keep your boot code and monitor at 0000 and have the boot routine from diskette simply unmap the ROM. Note that the CBIOS code (which not only provides I/O, but also loads the rest of the operating system is located in high memory and doesn't require anything in low memory to get going. One caution here. If you need interrupt service (say, if you're interfacing a PC keyboard), do not give in to the temptation to use the Z80 NMI line. NMI vectors to 0066H, which happens to be right in the middle of FCB2. There are some very messy workarounds for this for some systems, but the best thing to do is to avoid it. Use a "regular" interrupt if you need one. I think that the old Tarbell disk controller used a 82S23 bipolar ROM to read one sector from disk. That's only 32 bytes, but it was enough. Cheers, Chuck From mkepp at hevanet.com Mon Apr 23 19:25:43 2007 From: mkepp at hevanet.com (Mark Keppinger) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:25:43 -0700 Subject: Jim Willing? Are you out there? Message-ID: <007601c78607$1893f030$4300a8c0@MKHP> Sellam; If you find him, let me know, as he screwed me out of $670, and quite a few others as well. I've tracked down his father in law, who claims to not be responsible for all the people he has screwed. Mark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 08:06:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:06:21 -0400 Subject: looking for.. Message-ID: <0JH0006X970FLHA3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> This is my annual looking for item. I am serching for the schematic or manual supplied with the IMSAI IMP-48. The IMP48 is a single board computer that used 8035, eprom(1k), ram(1k) and 8279 keyboard display contrller to drive an 8 digit led display and a keypad. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 08:20:33 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:20:33 -0400 Subject: Junkbox parts... Message-ID: <0JH000L4K7O3X190@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Junkbox parts... > From: M H Stein > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:41:05 -0300 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >A couple of relevant sites: > >http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy325/spring-2006/docs/8042.pdf > >http://www.beyondlogic.org/keyboard/keybrd.htm > >mike Thanks for the info. After years of using nicely encoded keyboards the AT/PS2 deal is a mess. Allison > >******************************** >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > >On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > > >> Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for >> small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. >> Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how >> to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and >> commands they take? > >It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. >Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered >why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. > >Cheers, >Chuck From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Apr 24 08:23:54 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:23:54 +0200 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <462E04EA.3070100@iais.fraunhofer.de> Sridhar Ayengar schrieb: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're >> going to buy today. > > So, is there anything stopping someone from using a MicroDrive? It > should be more than fast enough. > > Peace... Sridhar > > Don't think so, except mechanical issues where a CF card has advantages. The Microdrive is CF+ standard which needs to implement the Common Memory transfer (8 and 16 bit). It is just the "True IDE mode which is optional within the spec, although I am sure the Microdrive will understand it. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 11:27:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:27:21 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:01:24 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" One other thing.. CPUs.. I've only mentioned Z80s. Others from the junkbox would be: 8080 (for the three voltage masochist). 8085 (Also makes for simple systems) NSC800 run it if you got one. Z180 Z280 ez80 (in Z80 mode) 8085s are common and makes a fair CP/M system. One caveat is that some (far from all) applicaions software expects a Z80 though, most run on 8080 and above. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 08:27:56 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:27:56 -0400 Subject: Junkbox parts... Message-ID: <0JH0005RU80EEGUJ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > From: Holger Veit > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:37:48 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Allison schrieb: >> The question on junkbox z80 systems made me remember that >> old 386 and 486 system besides providing a raft of 32kx8 SRAMS >> also had a keyboard interface chip.. >> >> I have a few salvaged 8742(smae as 8242) from PC hardware >> of the AT class 80386-486 level. >> >> Without resorting to eraseing the Eproms (8742) and reprogramming >> them I've wondered if.. >> >> Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for >> small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. >> Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how >> to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and >> commands they take? >> >> >See http://www.arne.si/~mauricio/kbdfaq.html for abundant information on >the keyboard, >and programming the controller. Basically, you connect it to a z80 the >same way as it is done >in the PeeCee - wire it to i/o port 60/64h and use the same logic to >program raw commands. >Normally, in homwbrew systems, people tend not to use a 8042 pulled from >a scrap board but talk >to the keyboard directly, through the serial protocol described above. >The keyboard itself typically >contained some 8048 controller to scan the kbd matrix. I've seen that and personally I'd like to isolate the system from the nasty scancode output from the keyboard so that the result looks like simple ASCII 7bit. I'd have to reprogram the 8742s to do that as the extracted parts only serve as a serial IO and buffer. >I don't have the exact circuitry for the 8042 UPI at hand right now, but >the schematic can be >found in the IBM AT Technical Reference Manual. I have more than enough info on the 8742 itself, I use them for other applications. The PC AT circuit is trivial and I have that as well. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 09:12:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:12:35 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH00054OA2SEG1K@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: Holger Veit > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:04:49 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >>>>snippage of lCD stuff (worthy of its own topic)>>>>>. > >You might infact look for embedded systems with a Z180 or better Z280 >CPU (PLCC84) they have most of the stuff like MMU and DMA already built >in which one needs to make a system with more than 64k. There are >already SRAMs with 128kByte >available, so no longer needs to build complex DRAM refresh schemes. SRAMS to 512k are current. Reality for CP/M applications is that none I know of use more than the base 60K(max!). So any extra ram interfaced either ends up as ramdisk or buffer space for BIOS. >>> Just buffer some data and address lines off for a floppy or IDE >> > interface >> >> From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared >> to a typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to >> access an IDE drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten >> details! :-) >Effectively, the software logic is the same. You have some registers >where you put in head/track/sector information, wait for >some ready status flag and read the data out or feed a block of data in. >Differences exist between the layout of the registers, but are actually >no stumbling block for any Z80 programmer. FDC has one differce from IDE, it is not buffered and if there is no DMA the cpu does PIO and it has to do it fast. So the programming has to be a bit more carefully crafted to grab a byte every 16uS. IDE is buffered so you have all day to transfer the data. >IDE is a little bit more comfortable as you don't have to deal with >low-level disk formatting and bad-block handling. Blocking/beblocking to >convert between 128 byte sectors and 512 byte disk sectors is still >required, unless you leave this to CP/M+ (CP/M 2.2 IIRC didn't have this >directly). OTOH, one could program an FDC to use 128 byte blocks on disk CP/MV2.x does not do deblocking for you but it does provide the software flags and hooks to do it and the code is supplied (on line and in the Alteration Guide). >easily; which then will cause trouble with data exchange to a PC, >however. OTTH, the logic for an FDC is typically more complex than for >an IDE interface, usually because of some monoflop-based data separator, >including some adjustment of resistors/capacitors. At a minimum. FDC interfaces are more involved as the interface has to include data and drive interfaces unless one can find a chip like 2793 or 37C65. >From a practical standpoint I advise people building CP/M systems the following. Don't bother with floppy, it's a complex system and you have many things(including the drive) that may have to be debugged. The idea of using floppy to transfer to PC is quaint and practical but most PCs also have serial lines and that is both easier to do and if done right fast enough, plus it's portable to PC systems that don't have floppy at all. I do suggest Flash or EEprom as ROmdisk and even ramdisk using static ram as one way to have storage but IDE is a viable and generally cheap way to go. IDE drives are easily tested (any old PC can do that) and drive under 1G are usually found in both good condition and near free(or cheap). A good base CP/M system: 1 Z80 (any speed) 2 61256 (64k ram) 1 27256(or28256) 32k eprom (startup) 1 CTC or 8253 (baud clock) 1 Z80 SIO or DART (two serial channels) about 12pcs TTL glue (maybe less) 1 IDE drive This can be hand wired (wirewrap or point to point) and with that few parts it will be small. Parts are available no SMT or unobtainium. Can be done using scrap and salvage. All parts will be through hole. Performance will be good if the Z80 is 4mhz or faster. With a 4mhz Z80 and IDE drive of at least 8mb useable space it will perform as well or better than most S100 and SBC systems discussed. With a 8mhz z80 it will be fast. It will run all the CP/M software and with a larger disk (say 40mb usable or larger) you can download extensive amounts of software to the hard disk. If done right the 32k Eprom can hold a debug monitor, hard disk formatter and also an image of CP/M (with room to spare) so that startup is eased. > >Personally, I tend to use CF<->IDE adapters and build the common three >circuit TTL-IDE interface. I do not have CF is my junkbox(yet). I do have a boatload of old but known good IDE drives. Once I got over my personal dislike for wasting half the drive and stopped using D8-15 the interface is both simple and qualifies as "junkbox". Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Apr 24 08:35:10 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:35:10 +0200 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <0JH0004JX48JQ1M4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH0004JX48JQ1M4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462E078E.9030009@iais.fraunhofer.de> Allison schrieb: >> On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're >> going to buy today. >> > > I've heard that was true of any drive over 500mb and have not seen anything > over 80mb that does. > > Me I keep saying if you really need the simplicity of 8b transfers and > the low cost that comes from a surplus IDE drive just ignore the high 8bits > and enjoy it. There's no harm from that. So what if half the storage > is unused, likely the drive is large anyway. > You are going to lose the error flags from the status register which a transferred on D8-15, IIRC. Also the drive identify command will return only half of the data. It is not an issue with pure data blocks; you'll then just have 256 byte blocks rather than 512. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 10:58:59 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:58:59 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH000001F04EM4O@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:02:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >With all of this recent 8-bit and CP/M talk, it's prompted me to do a >little digging on what it would take to put together a CP/'M machine >on my own. I already have a couple of commercially-produced boxes. >This is about taking a Z-80, some RAM, some ROM and a storage unit and >making it run CP/M. > >I've been reading the various threads, so I have a general idea of >what has to happen, but I'm still fuzzy on a few specifics, no doubt >due to my lack of deep experience with the Z-80. > >The point of ROM vs RAM at $0000 has been gone over a few times. Do >"standard" CP/M machines use a shadow-ROM technique, or what, to >cold-start? We used to use a trick with the 68000 that would map ROM >at $000000, _and_ at some higher address, with the first few >instructions jumping to the higher ROM image, , and either an I/O pin >that toggled the address mapping for the lower ROM image, or just >watching for the first pulse from A23, such that the act of jumping up >to the higher ROM address itself would remove ROM from the bottom of >the memory map, revealing RAM. there are two ways to do this. One is ROM at 0000h with a latch and logic to make it appear at reset (boot) and disappear when some specific event or port is activated. The other is to OR in a 1 to A15 so that Rom at F000h block also appears at 0000h and the logic can take that "ORing" out when not needed. The rom can then be disabled if desired. >>How did CP/M systems handle 64K of RAM? Was there one primary way it >was done, or did every hardware vendor do it differently? I should >probably just confine my efforts to 48K of RAM and use the upper 16K >for a boot ROM, but if it's easy to support 64K of RAM, why not? I'd say for practical running of the many CP/M applications 48K of ram is reasonable. CP/M can run in as little as 20K but, CP/M with ASM running leaves about 3k for symbol table and buffers in that case. I'd limit the minimal system then to maybe 32k (one 61256 32kx8 sram). There are so many different ways to do it that ones imagination can be taxed! And most ahve been used. Myself I prefer 8k, 16k or 32k Eprom at 0000h as then I can use that to launch CP/M and then disable it. CP/M is 5.5K for itself and the BIOS can add typically 1.5k to 3.5K. So a 8K can hold all of CP/M and BIOS image. Boot for such a system is simple, copy the image to the last 8k of ram jump to the BIOS coldboot vector ther code will disable rom and init low ram (page 0 the first 256 bytes) and your off and running. This saves the need to have system tracks and preparing them with some system prior to bring up. With 16k or more you can also have monitor code and utilities i the ROM. >To confirm, the minimal I/O system is some flavor of serial interface >for console I/O (presumably piped to a display smart enough to handle >ANSI codes), and some form of block-addressable storage with a CP/M >filesystem, right? Thats one way and by far the most common. Basically CP/M requires a console that can be any form of keyboard (BIOS makes it look like ASCII if needed) and a display (the most minimal I've done was 2 lines of 32char LCD!). However, for display I'd advise staying with 64x16 or better as many apps like BASIC, MUltiplan, Editors want a full 80x24 screen. >(I'm ignoring handy I/O like parallel printer ports and 8255-type GPIO and the like, for the moment). Definatly optional but useful. > Is it required that the storage unit be writable? No. CP/M does not swap or page. However, it's less than useful without some writeable storage but that can be drive B. I've built systems wher drive A: is 512k of Eprom (EEprom) as WOROM (write once for bringup) and runs as romdisk and a second "device" that is 512k of ram as ramdisk. With CMOS ram it can be battery backed up and for CP/M 512K is a useful working space. FYI: the core CP/M programs (ED, PIP, STAT, ASM, DDT and LOAD) fit in somthing like 40K. So a small romdisk of say 128k (27C010) can hold a lot. > Is there a minimum size for the display? CP/M itself doesn't care those anything less than 32char wide and 4 lines is hard to work with. Applications like editors rarely work acceptably (to the user) with less tha 64 character lines and 16of them. One system epson PX-8 is 480x64 pixels and runs in character mode as 80x8. I'd consider that usable from experiece with it. >That wouldn't matter for hanging a VT100-equivalent off of >the console port, but if I were to use some flavor of textual LCD, it >would very much matter. To find another way to ask, would the body of >extant CP/M apps freak out if you try to run them on a display that's >under 40 chars wide or under 24 chars tall? Do they expect 64 chars >wide or 80 chars wide? I don't think the OS itself actually cares how >wide or tall the display is, but perhaps some of the CUSPs, like DIR, >might. See comments already made. I'm currently playing with a small pannel of 240x64 (32x8). Works but hard for reading lots of long text. Reminder Epson had the an earlier system with a smaller screen, Tandy M100 was 40x4, Osborne-1 was 50char by 16 lines (might have been 20) so it's been done. >Rather than taking a bare Z80, wiring on a Z8530, an SRAM or two and >an EPROM, I was contemplating beefing up my 1976 SDS Z-80 Starter Kit >to the point where it could run CP/M. I've written about it here >before, when I first got it, to remind those that don't know or don't >remember what it is, it has a ~2MHz Z80, 1K of 21L02 SRAM, room for >one more K, one 2716 with "ZBUG", two empty 2716 sockets (one attached >to an EPROM programming circuit), a keypad and 7-segment LEDs, a >largish wire-wrap area, and two S-100 slots. Presuming I wire the >SRAM, a larger-capacity EPROM, and some serial device into the >wire-wrap area, is there anything I should look for in an S-100 card >that would be interesting to install? A video card (rather than a >serial console), perhaps? I think I have one or two S-100 video >cards, but I was never clear on how one attaches a keyboard to that >rig - is there an ASCII keyboard port typically provided on an S-100 >video card, or is that a separate peripheral? How you get there is fairly unlimited. If the SDS is S100 it's likely easier to find a S100 RAM board (Compupro Ram16, ram17 and many others are 6116 or 6164 srams for 64k). For exmple I have a Computime SBC-880 S100 card. Thats a Z80, 1K of ram, 2716 Eprom, 8251 serial, 8253 timer (baud rate and free timers) plus parallel IO on a S100 card. That with a RAM16, VDM1 (64x16 video), a DEC LK02 keyboard (ASCII parallel) plus one HomeBrew card that has a IDE drive (100mb) and a s100 interface for 16bit IDE. That's 4 boards and give me a 64k Z80 system that runs CP/M. A 5th board is a Computime 4 serial port card for excess IO.. S100, My $0.02 is leave those boards for the S100 bus as the signals needed were devolved from z80 to look like 8080 and to talk to those boards and it eats TTL when talking from bare Z80. If you have a z80 for S100 and Memory, serial IO the only thing needed (if the Z80 does not have rom provisions) is a ROM and storage card. Much easier than trying to interface a non S100 Z80 board to S100. What makes S100 nasty is the split data bus, one for read path one for write path , that makes for a lot of redundant buffers and steering logic. >Thanks for any and all answers to my noobish CP/M questions, Many have no idea what the hardware can be under CP/M. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 11:21:56 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:21:56 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH0003KVG2CG2Z3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:01:24 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/24/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> > The point of ROM vs RAM at $0000 has been gone over a few times. Do >> > "standard" CP/M machines use a shadow-ROM technique, or what, to >> > cold-start? >> >> There are many ways to accomplish getting RAM at 0, even though the CPU >> has to boot from there. > >I'm with you there. > >> Some systems force a JMP instruction onto the BUS during the first three >> fetches, which transfers control to a ROM at a higher location. > >That seems like it would take a bit of extra circuitry to do. Not bad at all, Three states and one is always 00h. Doesn't take much to do that. The sequency you want is say "JMP FOOOH" or C3h, 00h, F0h I think a pair of 74157s could encode that. Another equally sneeky/sleezy trick was to force NOPs (00h) on the buss till you hit the rom address where you disable the force nop logic. That's slow (takes 61.4mS at 4mhz) though. Allison Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 12:38:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:38:44 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462E04EA.3070100@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> <462E04EA.3070100@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <462E40A4.2020907@gmail.com> Holger Veit wrote: >>> On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive >>> you're going to buy today. >> >> So, is there anything stopping someone from using a MicroDrive? It >> should be more than fast enough. >> > Don't think so, except mechanical issues where a CF card has > advantages. The Microdrive is CF+ standard which needs to implement > the Common Memory transfer (8 and 16 bit). It is just the "True IDE > mode which is optional within the spec, although I am sure the > Microdrive will understand it. The reason I thought of Microdrive over regular CF is the canonical reason why people suggest Microdrives: greater write cycle lifetime. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 24 13:40:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:40:21 -0600 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <462E4F15.20403@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Last *couple* years?? Sheesh, try the last six or seven, at least. > It has also dramatically changed the nature of the surplus market. What surplus market? I suspect in the late 90's the idea of home-brew anything seems to have died completely. > -Dave --- new ebay listings L@@K RARE !!! I only have a 3 month old PC. > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 24 12:42:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:42:41 -0600 Subject: Why are these SGI boxes double-high? Message-ID: It turns out all this SGI gear is coming from Boeing. That means the Onyx 2 Reality Monster is likely to have a nice multi-head configuration :-). Woo hoo! So my question is... why is this Onyx and Challenge pictured in a double-high cabinet? Usually when I see a Challenge or Onyx in a photo I see a cabinet that is half the height of these and that includes space for all the boards and drives. So what would you need the extra cabinet space for? More boards and drives or just more drives? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 24 14:00:04 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:04 -0500 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704241801.l3OI1kOJ000936@hosting.monisys.ca> > > The problem with either of those is that the ROM remains in the memory > > map and takes up valuable RAM space. > > Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not > to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to > keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? No, in most (but not all) CP/M systems, the CP/M BIOS is not dependant on the boot ROM. Unlike a PC, where the ROM contains more-complicated-than-it-needs-to-be general purpose code to control all kinds of hardware, a typical S-100 CP/M boot rom contained just enough code to read one sector from a drive and jump to it. This goes back to the days of wildly varying S-100 cards... The guy who wrote the boot rom (the disk controller maker) only knew for sure how to talk to one bit of hardware in your system (his disk controller). It also ment that you (the knowlegable user) could implement the code to control your particular set of I/O devices without having to have the resources to reprogram or otherwise replace the boot ROM - by storing all of the device handling code on disk, it was easily replaceable. With a front panel machine, it was even possible to boot up a disk provided by your disk controller vendor (which didn't know how to talk to anything else), halt it, patch in basic console serial I/O functions using the front panel, start it in memory, and save the configured system back out to a disk. There are exceptions - systems with complex enough internal hardware and ROM support for it that it makes sense to just keep and use the ROM, however in more typical cases, even if the ROM contains some code that you can use, it saves memory to replace it with RAM and have only the code that you need resident with the system. > That certainly takes care of how to handle 64K of RAM - just get rid > of the ROM from the memory map as soon as possible. With my other > experience with 8-bit micros, I didn't expect that this was a viable > techique. The systems I am familiar with pretty much require that you > keep the ROMs around - even with the C-64, which will let you bank out > ROMs and run from RAM, folks didn't tend to completely ditch the > Kernel ROM. Of course, Commodore machines don't have a "real" > operating system as such, and not even a DOS in the sense of an Apple > II or a TRS-80 - the routines in the ROM were commonly used by > applications like Zork that didn't care about BASIC, but they did care > that the ROMs had enough low-level I/O stuff to read and write disk > blocks, etc. Again, think in terms of a box with a power supply and bus, and everything else changable ... That was the environment CP/M was designed to address. A C64 or any of a zillion other single-board computers have a much more predefined environment, and often that environment is "software unfriendlty" in order to make it cheaper - in such an environment, the ROM is much more likely to be useful, and hence used by an OS or other system application. Even so - It is not uncommon to completely eliminate the ROM and use OS resident drivers once the OS starts up, as this saves space and allows for a fuller RAM map. > > A video card will chew up valuable RAM, and many of them are only 16x64, > > but it does let you do real-time screen updates, games etc. > > Ah... now we are onto something - games... are there many games for > CP/M that require a video card, or were most happy with whatever sort > of TTY-type device (ANSI codes or not) was out there? I have a number of early commercial games on paper-tape which used a memory mapped video card, however a lot of these were provided by a vendor for a particular card. I was actually thinking more in terms of stuff that you might write yourself - I had a VDM-1 in my Altair for a few years, and I recall having loads of fun writing "character based" breakout, space invaders and the like... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 13:02:41 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:02:41 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1177437762.4712.300.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-04-23 at 11:23 -0400, Allison wrote: > Several items at this site worth looking at. > > http://www.retroleum.co.uk/z80-ideinterface.html > > > Definate go to site for Z80 info: > > http://www.z80.info/ > > There are other sites from that link worth a trip, many are in German > and have english translation, some don't, I've found them useful. > > > The list would not be complete without Gaby's fine work: > > http://www.gaby.de/ecpmlink.htm Thank you, gentle person, for this kind service... Two of these are new to me. Peace, Lord Wizard, Duke of URL wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 13:07:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:07:20 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <0JH00054OA2SEG1K@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH00054OA2SEG1K@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462DE4E8.18168.EF68857@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2007 at 10:12, Allison wrote: > At a minimum. FDC interfaces are more involved as the interface has to > include data and drive interfaces unless one can find a chip like 2793 > or 37C65. My personal favorite is the WD1770/1772 series. It doesn't do 500Kbps drives (no big deal for CP/M); interface logic is very minimal. Very simple to program; a 4MHz Z80 should be able to keep up with the data transfer without breaking a sweat. And it fits in a reasonably small (28 pin) DIP package. But a minimal system might incorporate nothing more than a PIIO or SIO and simply pass mass-storage requests and console I/O over the same path to a PC using a formatted message scheme. Makes the CBIOS coding a walk in the park. Or, one could build the Z80 onto a PC prototype board with its own local memory as a coprocessor and conduct mass storage and console I/O over a pair of I/O ports. For many, that may be the best of all worlds as it relieves one of the problem of terminal and disk interfacing, power supply and enclosure. Of course, the folks who want to put their project into a mahogany case with glass front may not be taken with this idea. :) Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 24 13:10:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:10:17 -0700 Subject: Fred Fish's passing Message-ID: <462E4809.8000101@bitsavers.org> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Fish From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 13:11:34 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:11:34 -0400 Subject: The 640k "barrier" In-Reply-To: <4b7d63a40704230907m3f27c331y12d1c63b9f56c164@mail.gmail.com> References: <34625.10837.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <462BC98E.7030407@brutman.com> <4b7d63a40704230907m3f27c331y12d1c63b9f56c164@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1177438295.4712.306.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-04-23 at 12:07 -0400, Blake Patterson wrote: > You may enjoy this article: > > http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000054.php > > The Great Apple //c vs. IBM PCjr Christmas Sales Battle... Erm, I know some of the people involved with this "Battle," and, according to them, at the time, the PC jr. was directly aimed to be a grinch for the Mac's Christmas, not the //c. Worked, too. Apple almost tanked. If it weren't for Woz's insistence that Apple continue production of the Apple II series, with its consistent, steady, cash flow, Apple would have foundered. IBM was REALLY annoyed with Apple for implying (in their ads) that IBM was doing a disservice to their customers, and the PC jr's marketing was designed to slow sales of the Mac, even down to a very similar kiosk for sales display. More details if desired... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 13:29:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:29:35 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Allison wrote: > One other thing.. CPUs.. > > I've only mentioned Z80s. So far. > Others from the junkbox would be: > > 8080 (for the three voltage masochist). Indeed. But the last 8080 I saw in the field was in a 1970s B&W video game. > 8085 (Also makes for simple systems) Those are somewhat common if you hang around DEC equipment. > NSC800 run it if you got one. Don't know that one - what makes it special? > Z180 > Z280 > ez80 (in Z80 mode) These all look like Z80 descendents to me - I'd probably rarely, if ever, run across one to harvest. > 8085s are common and makes a fair CP/M system. One caveat is that some > (far from all) applicaions software expects a Z80 though, most run on 8080 > and above. Since the Z80 was rather prolific, and should still be easy to obtain, either from junked equipment or just new for a couple of bucks from a place like BG Micro, what would be the appeal of an 8085? Just a variant on the theme, or is there something neat about it that warrants investigation? Since a bit of the requirements of such a system turn on the applications' needs more than the operating system's needs, I can throw into the mix that the things I'd probably most likely try to run would be some flavor of BASIC, Wordstar, an Infocom engine, and most likely a Scott Adams/Adventure International engine - pretty much the sort of stuff I would have run in the late 1970s through the mid-1980s if I'd had a CP/M system of my own. I'd say that a few hundred K of removable storage and a 64 or 80-char-wide screen should take care of all of those. Thanks for all the great details, Allison, -ethan From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 13:42:42 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:42:42 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1177440163.4712.318.camel@linux.site> Thread was: Re: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) On Mon, 2007-04-23 at 22:55 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > At the risk of starting a religious flame-war, my favorite of the > > not-quite-compatibles was the HP-150. Sleek, stylish, small, hard-shell > > diskettes, use of HPIB for disks and peripherals, and a touch screen. > > SEXY! > > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" CRT, an > optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine) using an HP-HIL interface. > It has 4 expansion slots (as against 2 in the original 150), and alas a > lot more custom silicon. > > I have the HP150 TechRef with the supplement for the 150-II. I've got an HP-150 which just developed a video problem. Any chance the TechRef is downloadable somewhere? > The case of the original HP150 seems to be very similar to the case of > the HP9816, which is one of the nicest styled machines I've ever seen. > The eleectronic design of that box is pretty interesting too... I agree. There are only three instances of companies failing which actually bothered me. First, Processor Technology, with their gorgeous, years-ahead-of-its-time SOL series, Digital Research, Inc., the source of almost all software innovation in personal computers, and HP. Yes, I know HP is still here, but, ending somewhere in the 1990s, they lost that "magic touch." Previously, EVERYTHING they did was close to miraculous. I don't think ANY company has come so close to doing engineering perfectly for the state of the science (and art) involved. Even more amazing was the CONSISTENCY with which they cranked out one amazing feat of engineering after another. Now they are just another manufacturer of PCs. Not that they are bad, or anything even like that, but one no longer wonders if they have secret access to alien technology. (The preceding is a statement of personal opinion, I*S*GWS.) Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 13:52:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:52:27 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <462E4F15.20403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730704231830v76f96b93qfd5d3f3c7a4889fd@mail.gmail.com> <462E4F15.20403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2007, at 2:40 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Last *couple* years?? Sheesh, try the last six or seven, at >> least. It has also dramatically changed the nature of the surplus >> market. > > What surplus market? I suspect in the late 90's the idea of home-brew > anything seems to have died completely. I'm talking about the large surplus dealers who buy the assets of defunct companies and shop at DRMO auctions. There were several of them who I used to visit weekly (or nearly so) back when money was flowing more freely. Since the advent of eBay, their prices have gone sky high and the "best" stuff is put up on eBay immediately upon arrival. Not that I'm complaining...I've gotten (and sold) tons of great stuff on eBay; it has been of great benefit to me. But it has changed things considerably, there's no doubt about it. > new ebay listings > L@@K RARE !!! I only have a 3 month old PC. Yes, I hate that. And if ONE MORE SELLER pops up selling a "RARE Z80 CPU" I'm going to go ballistic. How is a current product that you can buy from any component distributor "RARE"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 24 13:44:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My X programs [was Dreaming of a lean installation method [was Re: *nix on]] Message-ID: <200704241852.OAA28146@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Back on 2007-04-11, people asked me about my X software. At the time the FTP area was..rather insufficiently populated. I wrote > I clearly need to push a lot more stuff to the FTP area. Probably > won't happen until after work today, though. I finally got around to this. ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/ is a bit more populated now. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 24 13:56:33 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another unknown computer panel (is a 2870 panel) In-Reply-To: <462E2F24.1090909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <971906.49588.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Al. I decided to interface it to a microcontroller with a serial interface. With the manual, I can probably make it act like it should. I found a box of IBM 8" floppies that I think contain software for the Series/1 minicomputer. Can you read those? Probably 20-30 floppies. I also have another 30 or so that I believe are from a System/36. I can drop them off if you want them. I have a Series/1 but no floppy drive, oh well. Bob Al Kossow wrote: I located the FE manual for the 2870 in the CHM archives, and it appears to match. I'll get scans of that and the 2860 manuals up in the next couple of days. From jclang at notms.net Tue Apr 24 14:02:26 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:02:26 -0400 Subject: RX01 in SIMH - how to do it? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <462E5442.7060408@notms.net> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi, > >I feel like a fool ... I just can't get an RX01 drive >configured and attached in SIMH. >If I boot RT11 from a virtual RL02, and do .SH DEV, >the DX driver is listed as "Not installed". >On SY: is DX.SYS and DXX.SYS, and since RT11 answered >to the command ".set rx0 locked" >"?KMON-F-File not found SY:RXX.SYS", I copied DXX.SYS >to RXX.SYS ... and reboot of course. >When I enter ".set rx0 locked" the response is now >"?KMON-F-Invalid set parameter". >I break to SIMH and enter "att rx0 simrx01.dat" and the >SIMH response is > RX: creating new file > RX: buffering file in memory >When I continue, and enter .SH DEV, DX is "Not installed". >The CSR for DX is in SIMH 177174, the default 177170 is >assigned to DY. I know that both drivers normally have the >same CSR, I don't see a problem here. > >So, how do I attached and access (!) a virtual RX01 floppy? >Has anybody used RX01 in SIMH before? > > thanks, >- Henk. > > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. > >Thank you for your co-operation. > > > > > You have to disable the rx02 and enable the rx01 in SIMH Since they use the same CSR joe From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 14:13:32 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:13:32 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH0003KVG2CG2Z3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH0003KVG2CG2Z3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1177442013.4712.323.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 12:21 -0400, Allison wrote: > Another equally sneeky/sleezy trick was to force NOPs (00h) on the buss > till you hit the rom address where you disable the force nop logic. > That's slow (takes 61.4mS at 4mhz) though. Only to a computer... That is .0614 seconds, considerably less than a tenth of a second. Studies have shown that most people cannot even detect intervals of less than a tenth of a second. Methinks thou dost protest too much... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 24 14:23:43 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:23:43 -0400 Subject: Why are these SGI boxes double-high? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704241523.43289.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 24 April 2007 13:42, Richard wrote: > It turns out all this SGI gear is coming from Boeing. That means the > Onyx 2 Reality Monster is likely to have a nice multi-head > configuration :-). Woo hoo! > > So my question is... why is this Onyx and Challenge pictured in a > double-high cabinet? > > > > > Usually when I see a Challenge or Onyx in a photo I see a cabinet > that is half the height of these and that includes space for all the > boards and drives. So what would you need the extra cabinet space > for? More boards and drives or just more drives? It's a different system from the 1/2 height Challenge L and Onyx. (This is "full height" not "double height".) I gave up two Challenge XLs about a month ago, and still have a (prototype) Onyx similar to that one. Basically, the chassis have more slots than the 1/2 rack version. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 14:36:14 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:36:14 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1177443375.4712.339.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 12:01 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not > to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to > keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? No, there is no requirement to keep ANY ROM available after boot. It is preferable, in most cases, to have the entire address space made up of RAM once the system is actually running, as opposed to booting. Some cases involve copying the ROM contents to RAM during boot, and then disabling ROM. Again, as has been implied, EVERYBODY chose their own method -- some were better than others, naturally enough. As a matter of fact, for those systems which implement ROM at 0000 for booting, the ROM *MUST* be disabled for any even half-way normal CP/M system to run. (See the previous discussions on CP/M for Radio Shack Models) > Right. I know that there are *many* CP/M hardware configurations; I > am trying to get down the nub of as minimal a hardware design as > possible. CPU, 64k RAM, disk(ette) controller, ROM able to be disabled (could be on controller), serial port. Anything else is gravy. > Sure. For the minimal system I have in mind, I'm planning on a VT100 > or some modern machine running a terminal emulator (Kermit, et al.) to > handle screen formatting. Perfect. > > A video card will chew up valuable RAM, and many of them are only 16x64, > > but it does let you do real-time screen updates, games etc. > > Ah... now we are onto something - games... are there many games for > CP/M that require a video card, or were most happy with whatever sort > of TTY-type device (ANSI codes or not) was out there? Video card manufacturers often produced games. Probably the most common target video card was the VDM-1 card, as in the Sol-20 by Processor Technology. I have one of those cards in my IMSAI. 16x64, and takes up 1 K of memory. I've seen boots that involve a VDM-1, and one 2708 (1K EPROM) that leaves 62K for RAM, and uses the VDM-1 memory for stack during boot, IIRC. Ugly, but it works. VDM-1 cards require S-100 bus, or massive hacking. That makes them, probably, outside the parameters of the "quickest and cheapest" setup you've set. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Apr 24 14:46:28 2007 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:46:28 +0100 Subject: Ferranti Argus 700 parts Message-ID: <00ae01c786a9$4021cb20$0600a8c0@P2Desktop> I know of an Argus 700 that has been scrapped. Does anyone need any parts? (no processor cards - they've gone to keep another one going). Please contact me off list Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 14:48:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:48:27 -0400 Subject: Fred Fish's passing In-Reply-To: <462E4809.8000101@bitsavers.org> References: <462E4809.8000101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Al Kossow wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Fish Sad news indeed. Thanks for letting us know. I hadn't heard yet. Like other Amiga owners, I found Fred's generous contribution to the Amiga scene to be invaluable. I still have a large box of 3.5" "Fish Disks" from the days before he transitioned to CD-ROM. Hardly a week would go by without me digging around on some disk for something handy or fun or both. If you happen to be curious about what was _on_ those disks (or how *much* was on them all), I found a flat-file catalog at http://www.amiga-stuff.com/pd/fish.html (my stuff is on disk 329). There's an amazing amount of source there as well, something you didn't see in the Mac or PC worlds. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 24 13:56:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:56:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quick survey on equipment In-Reply-To: <0JGZ00BH65JQJAZ5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 23, 7 07:37:00 pm Message-ID: > Actually there are quite a few IO mapped ports on the M1 but the > keyboard and Video are in the memory map. The only I/O port used in a cassette-based M1 is, IIRC 0xFF, used for the casette interface and video mode selection. In a disk system with an RS232 interface, the RS232 interface takes a handful of I/O ports (is it 4 in and 4 out?) The disk controller, printer port, casette-selection relay are all memory-mapped. In a Model 3, all those (apart form the cassette-select relay, which doesn't exist!) are I/O ports. Hwoever, since a lot of applciation software would read the printer port address to determine if a printer was connecoted, if it was ready, etc, there's a bit of extra circuitry in the M3 and M4 to make a memory read from the approriate address also read the printer input port (which can _also_ be read by an IN instruction as an I/O port), so that such software will run on an M3 THe Model 4 follows the Model 3 in this repsect, but has even more I/O ports used (sound, clock speed, 6845, etc) -tony From wdg3rd at comcast.net Tue Apr 24 15:03:48 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:03:48 +0000 Subject: Dayton (cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 69) Message-ID: <042420072003.26266.462E62A4000681220000669A22007340760B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels of files were found. For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit http://ses.symantec.com/ From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 15:21:25 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:21:25 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177440163.4712.318.camel@linux.site> References: <1177440163.4712.318.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1177446087.4712.343.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 14:42 -0400, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Mon, 2007-04-23 at 22:55 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have the HP150 TechRef with the supplement for the 150-II. > > I've got an HP-150 which just developed a video problem. Any chance > the TechRef is downloadable somewhere? Never mind... I found it myself, at the HP Computer Museum, of all places. Duh. A most impressive collection of information, by the way... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Apr 24 15:24:30 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:24:30 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070424160407.0495e310@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >On 4/24/07, Allison wrote: >>One other thing.. CPUs.. >> >>I've only mentioned Z80s.... > >>8085 (Also makes for simple systems) > >Those are somewhat common if you hang around DEC equipment. Or early Tandy laptops... ;-) >>Z180 >>Z280 >>ez80 (in Z80 mode) > >These all look like Z80 descendents to me - I'd probably rarely, if >ever, run across one to harvest. Harvest, shmarvest - Mouser/Digikey carries 'em in stock - wanna 33Mhz Z80 compatible, with access to MMU & whatnot if you choose? $13. Just like everything else computerwise, slower is cheaper... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 24 15:24:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:24:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177440163.4712.318.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 24, 7 02:42:42 pm Message-ID: > > I have the HP150 TechRef with the supplement for the 150-II. > > > I've got an HP-150 which just developed a video problem. Any chance > the TechRef is downloadable somewhere? I don;t think it is. The obvious place to look would be http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . I think the service manual is there, but that's a boardwsapper guide, no schematics. The Techref 150 Techref contains schematics of the whole machine _apart from the PSU_. It does include the logic boards, video board, keyboard and touchscreen. The -II supplement includes the 150-II mainboard scheamtic, but not the PSU/video board, keyboard or touchscreen (the last 2 are standard HP-HIL devices). I did trace put the schematics of the PSU/video board in my -II, though. What's the problem with your unit? Does it appear to be a digital problem, or a problem with monitor circuit? > know HP is still here, but, ending somewhere in the 1990s, they lost > that "magic touch." Previously, EVERYTHING they did was close to We've discussed this many times at HPCC meetings. My feeling is that the 'golden years' of HP were about 1965 to 1987. The real 'death' came when they split off the test equipment division as Agilent. At one time HP were known for making some of the best test gear available [1], now they're known for cheap and nasty inkjet printers. A great pity if you grew up with their great products. [1] Although I always thought Tektronix made better 'scopes :-) I have an _old_ -- over 40 eyars old -- HP frequncy counter. Apart from a very clever design (how about making a decade counter, latch and nixie tube driver in 8 transistors (and no ICs), I am always amused by the fact that the _low precision_ timebase is the intenral oven-stabilised crystal oscillator, good to 3 parts in 10^9 after warmup and calibration. The high precision add-on was, of course, a rubidium beam. That's the HP I knew and loved :-) > miraculous. I don't think ANY company has come so close to doing > engineering perfectly for the state of the science (and art) involved. > Even more amazing was the CONSISTENCY with which they cranked out one > amazing feat of engineering after another. Now they are just another Needless to say I am addicted to their (old) calculators. I still routinely use HP41s. There's an HP16C on my workbench. I regard the HP9100 as the most elecgant piece of electronics that I've ever had the pleasure to work on. THe HP98xx series (all of them -- 98x0 and 98x5 machines -- are interesting, ingenious, and still work well with minor repairs30 years after them were made. And as I mentioend I like the 9000/200 series. I am not a great fan of the HP80 series. Yes, they work. They do what they claim (which is more than I could say of some manufacturer's offerings!). But there's too much custom silicon inside, the expansion bus is plain strange (and at 6V voltage levels), etc. Not really my first choice. > manufacturer of PCs. Not that they are bad, or anything even like that, > but one no longer wonders if they have secret access to alien > technology. (The preceding is a statement of personal opinion, > I*S*GWS.) -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 24 15:26:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:26:08 -0600 Subject: Why are these SGI boxes double-high? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:23:43 -0400. <200704241523.43289.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200704241523.43289.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > > Usually when I see a Challenge or Onyx in a photo I see a cabinet > > that is half the height of these and that includes space for all the > > boards and drives. So what would you need the extra cabinet space > > for? More boards and drives or just more drives? > > It's a different system from the 1/2 height Challenge L and Onyx. (This > is "full height" not "double height".) I gave up two Challenge XLs > about a month ago, and still have a (prototype) Onyx similar to that > one. > > Basically, the chassis have more slots than the 1/2 rack version. OK, I'd only ever seen the half-height varities then. I wonder if they have the full height version because they needed more slots for fancy cards :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 15:28:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:28:49 -0700 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <462E0611.31878.F781071@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2007 at 14:29, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > NSC800 run it if you got one. > > Don't know that one - what makes it special? Basically 8085 timing with a Z80 instruction set in CMOS (has a low- power "sleep" mode). I've got a few (maybe 20) of the 2.5 MHz parts. Love to get my hands on a couple of the 4 MHz parts. There was an article in one of the mags about retrofitting one into a CompuPro 85/88 board. There are some signal inversions and a few timing issues requiring some extra glue, but it's an interesting way to upgrade an 8085 box to run Z80 code. There is an extra configuration port at (IIRC) I/O address 0bbh, so you have to be careful to avoid collisions with existing port usage. The good news is that said port responds only on OTI/INI instructions and not the 8085-style OUT and IN (immediate port address) instructions. I've had lousy luck getting one to work with an 8202 DRAM controller, however. Runs fine from ROM and gets very sick the moment it sets a toe into DRAM. One of these days, I'll hang a logic analyzer on it and figure out if it's fixable. Cheers, Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Tue Apr 24 15:30:22 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:30:22 +0100 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177440163.4712.318.camel@linux.site> References: <1177440163.4712.318.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1177446622.9062.9.camel@localhost> > > I've got an HP-150 which just developed a video problem. Any chance > the TechRef is downloadable somewhere? > http://hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php abut half way down is the 150 service manual. My 150 also has a video problem. Diagnosis is "aided" by flashing LED's on startup. This is supposed to show which memory location is faulty. I havnt had time to investigate further. roger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 13:50:15 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:50:15 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH0003YNMXIFWC4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: Holger Veit > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:35:10 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Allison schrieb: >>> On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're >>> going to buy today. >>> >> >> I've heard that was true of any drive over 500mb and have not seen anything >> over 80mb that does. >> >> Me I keep saying if you really need the simplicity of 8b transfers and >> the low cost that comes from a surplus IDE drive just ignore the high 8bits >> and enjoy it. There's no harm from that. So what if half the storage >> is unused, likely the drive is large anyway. >> >You are going to lose the error flags from the status register which a >transferred on D8-15, IIRC. >Also the drive identify command will return only half of the data. >It is not an issue with pure data blocks; you'll then just have 256 byte >blocks rather than 512. Both are minor issues. CP/M cannot use the identify and a bios that uses it to configure is going to grow far to fast. The error bits are a minor problem, sufficient to say if you get an error (low 8bits signal generic error) whats one to do? Answer, not much as something big happened. CP/M doesn't handle errors the bios does. It's simplistic but 99.999% of the time unless there's a programming error where the host and drive are out if sync, errors mean it's time for a new drive. Allison > >-- >Holger > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 13:59:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:59:41 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH000LE1ND85MJ1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:35:02 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 24 Apr 2007 at 12:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not >> to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to >> keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? > >Nope. CP/M installations are typically self-contained, though there >are a few systems that keep ROM around for I/O servicing. Since >you'll be writing your own boot code, you can do ROM mapping however >you'd like. A simple way is to keep your boot code and monitor at >0000 and have the boot routine from diskette simply unmap the ROM. >Note that the CBIOS code (which not only provides I/O, but also loads >the rest of the operating system is located in high memory and >doesn't require anything in low memory to get going. True, most (traditional) CP/M system load the whole show in high ram and rom is either in the way or turned off. Non-traditional CP/M approach: rom (and ram) if paged in and out can be a way to park code for the BIOS to keep it out of main ram area. Also non-traditional is putting the entire CP/M+ bios image in Eprom rather than on Disk or floppy system tracks. >One caution here. If you need interrupt service (say, if you're >interfacing a PC keyboard), do not give in to the temptation to use >the Z80 NMI line. NMI vectors to 0066H, which happens to be right in >the middle of FCB2. There are some very messy workarounds for this >for some systems, but the best thing to do is to avoid it. Use a >"regular" interrupt if you need one. I've seen more than a few get bitten by that beastie. My favorite is use mode 2 (Z80 vectord) by adding a LS244 to the bus that is activated by MI/*IRQ/ (interupt ack) to push in a fixed vector or just 00h. In that mode the IV (interrupt vector) register supplies the high byte making it easy to put interrupt routines at the beginning of any 256byte page in ram. >I think that the old Tarbell disk controller used a 82S23 bipolar ROM >to read one sector from disk. That's only 32 bytes, but it was >enough. Just enough! Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 16:10:21 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:10:21 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <1177443375.4712.339.camel@linux.site> References: <200704241537.l3OFbcwN001221@hosting.monisys.ca> <1177443375.4712.339.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 12:01 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Ah... now we are onto something - games... are there many games for > > CP/M that require a video card, or were most happy with whatever sort > > of TTY-type device (ANSI codes or not) was out there? > > > Video card manufacturers often produced games. Fair enough. Any really interesting ones to recommend? > Probably the most > common target video card was the VDM-1 card... VDM-1 cards require > S-100 bus, or massive hacking. That makes them, probably, outside the > parameters of the "quickest and cheapest" setup you've set. My SDS Z80 Starter Kit already has two S100 slots built in, so the only expense to outfit that one is a 100-pin backplane connector. I'll keep it in mind as an upgrade for later. Thanks, -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 16:23:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:23:50 -0400 Subject: Why are these SGI boxes double-high? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FB0F414-002E-429E-8955-925421ACD508@neurotica.com> On Apr 24, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Richard wrote: > It turns out all this SGI gear is coming from Boeing. That means the > Onyx 2 Reality Monster is likely to have a nice multi-head > configuration :-). Woo hoo! > > So my question is... why is this Onyx and Challenge pictured in a > double-high cabinet? > > > > > Usually when I see a Challenge or Onyx in a photo I see a cabinet that > is half the height of these and that includes space for all the boards > and drives. So what would you need the extra cabinet space for? More > boards and drives or just more drives? This is the Onyx/Challenge "rack" configuration. If memory serves, it can hold up to three Ebus/VME card cages, and at least one 19" rackmount disk chassis. In my experience, these have been just about as common as the deskside chassis, though a real pain to move. The big plus is that they have very good rollers. They do, sadly, also suffer from the same old SGI problem of cheap plastic skins that practically disintegrate if not handled like fine china. If you so much as look at one of those front door hinges wrong, it will break. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 16:44:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:44:08 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <0JH0004OLGBDQ1P5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Z180 >> Z280 >> ez80 (in Z80 mode) > > These all look like Z80 descendents to me - I'd probably rarely, if > ever, run across one to harvest. Sorry for jumping in, but I had to pipe up here. I've done some designs with the eZ80F91...it's a real monster. It's an extended Z80 clocked at 50MHz with a 24-bit address bus and an on-chip Ethernet controller. Very nice. Play with it if you get the chance. >> 8085s are common and makes a fair CP/M system. One caveat is that >> some >> (far from all) applicaions software expects a Z80 though, most run >> on 8080 >> and above. > > Since the Z80 was rather prolific, and should still be easy to obtain, > either from junked equipment or just new for a couple of bucks from a > place like BG Micro, ...or brand new from pretty much any component distributor like Mouser, etc... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Apr 24 16:59:20 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:59:20 -0700 Subject: RX01 in SIMH - how to do it? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Henk, At 9:56 AM +0200 4/24/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi, > >I feel like a fool ... I just can't get an RX01 drive >configured and attached in SIMH. As Joe mentioned, make sure only one device is using the CSR and vector in SIMH before booting RT-11. Then attach the device to the container file. >If I boot RT11 from a virtual RL02, and do .SH DEV, >the DX driver is listed as "Not installed". Right. It needs to be installed before you use it. For example, .INS DX: .LOAD DX: Now try .SHOW DEVICES and see what happens. John From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Apr 24 17:07:03 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:07:03 -0700 Subject: Why are these SGI boxes double-high? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704241507.03760.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 24 April 2007 10:42, Richard wrote: > It turns out all this SGI gear is coming from Boeing. That means the > Onyx 2 Reality Monster is likely to have a nice multi-head > configuration :-). Woo hoo! > > So my question is... why is this Onyx and Challenge pictured in a > double-high cabinet? > > > > > Usually when I see a Challenge or Onyx in a photo I see a cabinet that > is half the height of these and that includes space for all the boards > and drives. So what would you need the extra cabinet space for? More > boards and drives or just more drives? Most of the Onyx and Challenge systems I see at brokers/scrappers are full rack - only the deskside systems are half height. What's in them will vary - I've seen everything from almost nothing (empty space), drive arrays, supplemental I/O gear (fiber channel, etc.), and additional CPU's. Onyx systems can have multiple pipes, or as above. Most of the Challenge systems I've seen over the last couple of years have been scrapped - as there are no commercial takers for any of their components - and most hobbiests don't have the space for racks of CPU's and drive arrays (with 9MB drives ;-) The other issue with Onyx and Challenge systems is that most, if not all, the drives are HVD (High Voltage Differential) SCSI. It is possible to convert an Onyx or Challenge to SE (Single Ended) SCSI - but it's a bit of a chore (I did it for my Onyx IR and RE2 Desksides). Onyx systems have a bit of demand - as hobbiests and some brokers want the graphics cards - especially those for Infinite Reality graphics and Sirius Video (Broadcast quality video). [That's especially true if the Sirius Video comes with cables and control box (digital serial option being the most desirable.)] Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Apr 24 17:15:07 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:15:07 -0700 Subject: Fred Fish's passing In-Reply-To: <462E4809.8000101@bitsavers.org> References: <462E4809.8000101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200704241515.08010.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 24 April 2007 11:10, Al Kossow wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Fish Thanks for the note, Al. Another great soul leaves this earth... In the Amiga 500/3000 timeframe, I used to relish picking up the latest Fish diskettes (later CDROMs) for my Amigas. I've still got those diskettes and CDs (someplace ;-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 24 17:20:56 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Time perception [was Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine] In-Reply-To: <1177442013.4712.323.camel@linux.site> References: <0JH0003KVG2CG2Z3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <1177442013.4712.323.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <200704242225.SAA29815@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Studies have shown that most people cannot even detect intervals of > less than a tenth of a second. Under some circumstances, perhaps. Delay from flipping a switch to a light going on, for example. But if, for example, the interval in question is the time between two sharp clicks of sound (the specific case I'm thinking of is pool balls colliding), I feel quite sure most people could get well below a tenth of a second. If it's the time difference between two adjacent lights going on, perhaps even shorter - I suspect detecting the sign of the difference is be easier than detecting its relative magnitude, though I haven't tried it, not even on just myself. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 24 17:36:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:36:01 -0500 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <462E40A4.2020907@gmail.com> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> <462E04EA.3070100@iais.fraunhofer.de> <462E40A4.2020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <462E8651.8050207@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The reason I thought of Microdrive over regular CF is the canonical > reason why people suggest Microdrives: greater write cycle lifetime. I'm starting to suspect that we're not talking Sinclair Microdrives here... ;) From wizard at voyager.net Tue Apr 24 18:27:17 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:27:17 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1177457238.4712.373.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 21:24 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got an HP-150 which just developed a video problem. Any chance > > the TechRef is downloadable somewhere? > > I don;t think it is. The obvious place to look would be > http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . I think the service manual is there, but > that's a boardwsapper guide, no schematics. Oh, Bollocks... you're exactly right. Please retract my previous retraction. > What's the problem with your unit? Does it appear to be a digital > problem, or a problem with monitor circuit? Digital, I suspect. Although, this is a rather bizarre problem, and COULD be a video problem, I suppose. When I boot it up, it works correctly, as far as I can tell, with the single exception that the screen shows what it should be showing, only in reverse video, and without the characters being visible, whatever the brightness level. In other words, I see the PAM blocks where they should be, but reversed. If I press the proper keys to run a DOS "Dir" command, I see it run past, but only as an empty reverse-video field block. It previously worked correctly, the only event transpiring between then and now being a replacement of the "N" type batteries that keep the CMOS going. > > know HP is still here, but, ending somewhere in the 1990s, they lost > > that "magic touch." Previously, EVERYTHING they did was close to > > We've discussed this many times at HPCC meetings. My feeling is that the > 'golden years' of HP were about 1965 to 1987. I could have been in denial for a few years, I suppose... > The real 'death' came when they split off the test equipment division as > Agilent. At one time HP were known for making some of the best test gear > available [1], now they're known for cheap and nasty inkjet printers. A > great pity if you grew up with their great products. Exactly. > [1] Although I always thought Tektronix made better 'scopes :-) I think the Tek's may have been more fully-featured, but I liked the HP 'scopes just fine. If you leave the two companies out of it, you've cut off almost all the truly great 'scopes. > I have an _old_ -- over 40 eyars old -- HP frequncy counter. Sounds like you are discussing an HP 5245L... > Apart from > a very clever design (how about making a decade counter, latch and nixie > tube driver in 8 transistors (and no ICs), I am always amused by the fact > that the _low precision_ timebase is the intenral oven-stabilised crystal > oscillator, good to 3 parts in 10^9 after warmup and calibration. The > high precision add-on was, of course, a rubidium beam. > > That's the HP I knew and loved :-) Yes! Our lab had a cesium beam that we used as an external standard for the 5245Ls. Truth be told, however, there really wasn't much difference, especially if one "tuned up" the crystal oscillator by beating it against the Cs beam frequency reference. We were ACCURATE. I loved it. > Needless to say I am addicted to their (old) calculators. I still > routinely use HP41s. There's an HP16C on my workbench. I regard the > HP9100 as the most elecgant piece of electronics that I've ever had the > pleasure to work on. THe HP98xx series (all of them -- 98x0 and 98x5 > machines -- are interesting, ingenious, and still work well with minor > repairs30 years after them were made. And as I mentioend I like the > 9000/200 series. I recently bought an HP-85. Mistakenly, I thought it was a 9830. Some friends and I almost managed to go in hock to buy one of those (9830) beasties when they were new. It was SO cool. Probably a good thing we didn't... Computing got VERY cheap VERY soon after that. Anyway, thanks so much for your assistance. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 24 14:34:26 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:34:26 +0000 Subject: Got ten WY-30 Wyse terminals to fix at tv shop. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070424233335.RWOB1646.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> WY-30, part no: 900023-01 Intial three I checked, are non-responding and no screen. Opened up one and found that power supply is working and correctly regulating 5V and other supplies for the CRT (heater glowing direct power from PSU) but the deflection section not sweeping. Checked digital section and found the 68B00 (6800) is non-functioning, not even a reset twitter on any of signals at instant of power on. Tried replugging the ICs, xtal is oscillating thru a IC with many outputs. Any suggestions? Cheers, Wizard From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 24 18:04:54 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:04:54 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 72 Message-ID: <01C786AB.F8A5E620@mse-d03> --------------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:20:33 -0400 From: Allison Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > >Subject: Junkbox parts... > From: M H Stein > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:41:05 -0300 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >A couple of relevant sites: > >http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy325/spring-2006/docs/8042.pdf > >http://www.beyondlogic.org/keyboard/keybrd.htm > >mike Thanks for the info. After years of using nicely encoded keyboards the AT/PS2 deal is a mess. Allison ---------------------------------- REPLY: Well, you could always replace the encoder in the keyboard, although I think the matrix has a few more lines than were used in the old days. I've got a bunch of index-card-size SBC terminals (both colour and m/c) that you could use as a kbd>RS232 encoder, but alas, they all use XT type keyboards AFAIK. There are of course commercial PS/2 or matrix<>RS232 encoders, but the ones I use are a little expensive ($100, Hagstrom KE24). Finally, here's more good info re reading a PS/2 keyboard: http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2keyboard/ mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 19:17:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:17:53 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation Message-ID: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> I've been cursing my way through a load of DC300XL/DC600A carts written a bit over 20 years ago. They're mixed "Scotch" brand (blue logo) and "3M" (red logo). The "Scotch" ones have been an unmitigated nightmare. Binder bleed visible between wraps on each reel (white gloppy deposits), flaking of the binder (the tension band has great chunks of oxide firmly laminated to it). Really awful news and prety much a total loss. The "3M" brand are largely recoverable, with a few missing block errors. Does this match everyone else's experience with these two brands? Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 24 20:18:41 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:18:41 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >Lots of systems made that error. For instance, RSTS/E stored the >passwords in cleartext and you could list them out if you were a >privileged (1,*) user. I discovered that when you submitted a batch >job through the @ processor, it ran as user batch on account (1,2). >So it wasn't too hard to submit a batch job that ran the ACCOUN >program to list out the passwords. > Jerome Fine replies: Perhaps Zane is following this thread or anyone else who knows VMS well. I seem to remember that the userid / password were placed through the same algorithm as the stored values. The results were compared and that was what produced a match. In addition, I also understand that it was impossible to reverse the results of the "encryption" algorithm. And with later versions of VMS, the choice of the password was restricted, possibly to a string produced at random by VMS itself; this latter feature prevented users from having the name of a special individual as the password. Does anyone know of any other operating system which requires secure passwords along with storing only the encrypted equivalents of the userid / password? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 24 20:39:38 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:39:38 -0500 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? Message-ID: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> a media organization in south florida (palm beach, broward, miami-dade counties, cities such as West palm beach, delray, boca, fort lauderdale, hollywood, miami, etc.) is looking for people who collect vintage/classic/old computers regarding an article on that topic they are working on. If anyone is interested in this, please contact me off-list as soon as possible for details. Best regards, Jay West From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 20:45:13 2007 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:45:13 -0400 Subject: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? In-Reply-To: <01C7793F.B7C21940@mse-d03> References: <01C7793F.B7C21940@mse-d03> Message-ID: <462EB2A9.8090509@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:20:24 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mr Ian Primus > Subject: Re: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? > >>> Any idea why? I'd love to have a handful of 20mb 3 >> 1/2" drives to use >>> for various things but I never see them. >>> >>> I'm talking about drives from Rodime, Seagate, >> Lapine, etc... cerca 1985. >> >> Most were unreliable, Miniscribe comes to mind. > > Hehe - Don't forget the wonderful Kalok Octa-gone... > > Octa-went. > > -Ian > ---------------- > Ah, yes, Kalok; a name that evokes many memories, none pleasant... > (although in my experience the Miniscribes weren't _too_ bad) > > m > > I have one of those kalok drives, along with an unidentified board -- how do I go about using it? I have some Pentium 3 machines I could put it in, but I was wondering how exactly do I go about getting it to work. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From ray at arachelian.com Tue Apr 24 21:04:47 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:04:47 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> Message-ID: <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Perhaps Zane is following this thread or anyone else > who knows VMS well. I seem to remember that the > userid / password were placed through the same algorithm > as the stored values. The results were compared and > that was what produced a match. In addition, I also > understand that it was impossible to reverse the results > of the "encryption" algorithm. That's called a one way function, or a trap door. Modern day equivalents would be cryptographic hashes such as MD5, SHA, SHA1, SHA256. I don't recall the original Unix one, but it was based on some rotor crypt, possibly inspired by the engima machine. These were also "salted" which means that the OS would pick some random byte to prevent dictionary brute force attacks against passwords. Not sure if VMS had salted passwords. Such attacks exists today and are called Rainbow-Tables and can be used against systems that lack salted passwords. > > Does anyone know of any other operating system which requires > secure passwords along with storing only the encrypted > equivalents of the userid / password? Most flavors of Unix, *BSD do that. From pechter at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 21:19:37 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:19:37 -0400 Subject: RX01 in SIMH - how to do it? In-Reply-To: References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, John A. Dundas III wrote: > > Henk, > > At 9:56 AM +0200 4/24/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi, > > > >I feel like a fool ... I just can't get an RX01 drive > >configured and attached in SIMH. > > As Joe mentioned, make sure only one device is using the CSR and > vector in SIMH before booting RT-11. Then attach the device to the > container file. > > >If I boot RT11 from a virtual RL02, and do .SH DEV, > >the DX driver is listed as "Not installed". > > Right. It needs to be installed before you use it. For example, > > .INS DX: > > .LOAD DX: > > Now try .SHOW DEVICES and see what happens. > > John > IIRC you could give the RX02 a different CSR and Vector and tell the DY driver the vector and csr at load time to get both in. bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 24 21:22:57 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:22:57 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 9:18 PM -0400 4/24/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Richard wrote: > >>Lots of systems made that error. For instance, RSTS/E stored the >>passwords in cleartext and you could list them out if you were a >>privileged (1,*) user. I discovered that when you submitted a batch >>job through the @ processor, it ran as user batch on account (1,2). >>So it wasn't too hard to submit a batch job that ran the ACCOUN >>program to list out the passwords. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >Perhaps Zane is following this thread or anyone else >who knows VMS well. I seem to remember that the >userid / password were placed through the same algorithm >as the stored values. The results were compared and >that was what produced a match. In addition, I also >understand that it was impossible to reverse the results >of the "encryption" algorithm. And with later versions >of VMS, the choice of the password was restricted, possibly >to a string produced at random by VMS itself; this latter >feature prevented users from having the name of a special >individual as the password. > >Does anyone know of any other operating system which requires >secure passwords along with storing only the encrypted >equivalents of the userid / password? No idea, sounds like that predates my VMS experience. I know there were some holes in the pre-V5 days, but since V5 I think it's been fairly secure. I do know that at least with RSX-11M V4.2 it is possible to boot up from the console and dump the logins and passwords. IIRC, they're just plain text and you simply need high enough privileges to view the file. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Apr 24 21:22:41 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:22:41 +0100 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> <462DB149.8050809@gmail.com> <462E04EA.3070100@iais.fraunhofer.de><462E40A4.2020907@gmail.com> <462E8651.8050207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <007c01c786e3$9938c080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> > I'm starting to suspect that we're not talking Sinclair >Microdrives here... > > ;) ROTFLMAO! TTFN - Pete. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 24 22:40:45 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:40:45 -0500 Subject: What monitor is this? Message-ID: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> Here's a picture: http://www.oldskool.org/misc/unknown_monitor.jpg I'm pretty sure this is the monitor that came bundled with the IBM PS/1 series, but if anyone can get a lock on this before Wednesday night I'd be most appreciative. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 22:43:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:43:34 -0500 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Ray Arachelian wrote: > These were also "salted" which means that the OS would pick some random > byte to prevent dictionary brute force attacks against passwords. Not > sure if VMS had salted passwords. My memory from working on COMBOARD software under VMS v3.x, v4.x, and v5.x was that perhaps it did or didn't use salted password under v3, but that under v4 and v5 it certainly did. Since our product could submit take files received over the bisync or SNA link and submit them to the VMS Batch queue long before there was a documented technique to do so, we had to hash user-supplied passwords and compare them to what was in the password file ourselves to ensure the user was authorized to submit those jobs. ISTR that eventually, sometime after VMS 5.0, it was possible to hand a plaintext password and username to a system service call and confirm that the password was valid for that user. I don't think you could get the hash back to inspect it, but the important part was that you could make that check. With enough time, I could probably dig up our code, c. 1983-1984, for the one-way hash function. Over the timeframe we were doing it, I also seem to recall that VMS did it more than one way, or at least we had to make changes in how we did it at least once between 1981 and 1993. -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 24 22:53:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:53:18 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <1177281147.4712.265.camel@linux.site> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> , <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com>, <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> <1177281147.4712.265.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <462ED0AE.60806@oldskool.org> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Imagine my surprise when DisplayWrite would not even run. Seven > million for a study, and they didn't bother to even set it up. Sheesh. > Anyway, I ended up talking to Mort Myerson, the V.P. of EDS within a few > minutes, and I explained the situation to him. He said he would take > care of it. In the meanwhile, I was using a debugger to try to find out > what actual problem was causing the failure. It turns out that > DisplayWrite checked the BIOS ROM, and if it did NOT find "IBM" it shut > down. I figured we would get IBM to change the program... but, no. > Within a couple of hours about five Bell Labs techs showed up asking for > me, and got to work on the BIOS. I explained what I had found, and they > verified it. They then re-assembled the BIOS with a nonsense trademark > notice about IBM, and started cranking out copies of the new chip. > DisplayWrite then found "IBM" in the BIOS, and was happy. Hopefully you're not blaming the AT&T 6300 for that mess... I think the "IBM-string-in-the-BIOS-check" by the software is completely arbitrary and the real dunce of the story... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 24 22:55:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:55:39 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <042320071439.7116.462CC50700004E6700001BCC22007507440B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <042320071439.7116.462CC50700004E6700001BCC22007507440B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > The 6300 (and 6300 Plus) were designed and built by Olivetti, probably by the same engineers who used to keep Mussolini's trains running on time. Their DB-25 video connector is the only reliable way ever discovered to break a Radio Shack Daisy Wheel Printer II (aside from tossing the beast into a smelter). Convergent did the 7300 and 3B1 Unix PCs (vastly superior machines in my arrogant opinion, but I'm partial to just about any MC68k series systems that didn't come from Cupertino). I don't understand the line about the db25 monitor connector being able to break a printer. Could you explain? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 00:19:15 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:19:15 -0400 Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm pretty sure this is the monitor that came bundled with the IBM PS/1 > series, but if anyone can get a lock on this before Wednesday night I'd > be most appreciative. That is precisely what that is. That monitor is somewhat unique in that in includes the power supply for the PS/1 and without it, the PS/1 is useless. As a result, the monitors tend to be more valuable than the computer they're intended to compliment. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 25 01:11:01 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer collector in same Message-ID: See below. Please reply to Jamie direckly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:04:51 -0500 From: "Malernee, Jamie" To: vcf at vintage.org Subject: florida members? Hi, I'm a writer with the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, working on an article about local people who collect vintage computers as a hobby/passion. Do you have any members in the Florida area, or more specifically the South Florida area, who I might be able to contact for my article? Many thanks, Jamie Malernee Staff Writer South Florida Sun-Sentinel (954) 356-4849 200 E. Las Olas Blvd. Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 25 01:13:49 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I don't recall the original Unix [password-hasing one-way function], > but it was based on some rotor crypt, possibly inspired by the engima > machine. The "traditional" Unix password hash is DES-based (the trivialized Enigma code is crypt(1), not crypt(3)). Was there an even older version? Did it ever escape Bell Labs? For that matter, was enough publicly known about the Enigma at the time to do that then? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 01:31:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:31:47 -0400 Subject: HP 16c Message-ID: <462EF5D3.9080203@gmail.com> I've read the reviews of the HP 16C online for a long time, and people are always singing their praises. When I'm writing assembler, I always have my HP 28S within arm's reach, and I definitely see its value. Does anyone have information regarding features present in the 16C that aren't present in the 28S? (I already know about the features that are present in the 28S and not in the 16C.) Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Apr 25 01:37:50 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:37:50 +0100 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70704242337i1f64b85cn8ca73a71568d24b3@mail.gmail.com> On 25/04/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been cursing my way through a load of DC300XL/DC600A carts > written a bit over 20 years ago. They're mixed "Scotch" brand (blue > logo) and "3M" (red logo). > > The "Scotch" ones have been an unmitigated nightmare. [..] Hmm... I've got a couple of DC600As in the back of the cupboard from a system I was working on about 15 years ago .. I really ought to check up on them. Need to find a drive at some point .. While not directly relevant, ISTR that c.20 yers ago Scotch marketed their VHS tapes over here with a lifetime guarantee, and the tag line "re-record, not fade away" "you can watch scotch forever". (I should still have some of their VHS tapes that are 20 years old now .. really ought to check on them....) Did their data carts have the same guarantee?? Rob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 16:25:44 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:25:44 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH0004EZU4MPZW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:29:35 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/24/07, Allison wrote: >> One other thing.. CPUs.. >> >> I've only mentioned Z80s. > >So far. > >> Others from the junkbox would be: >> >> 8080 (for the three voltage masochist). > >Indeed. But the last 8080 I saw in the field was in a 1970s B&W video game. > >> 8085 (Also makes for simple systems) > >Those are somewhat common if you hang around DEC equipment. As I am. > >> NSC800 run it if you got one. > >Don't know that one - what makes it special? National did a odd mix of z80 archetecture and 8085 interface. It's a Z80 for the programmer and 8085 like for the hardware hack. >> Z180 >> Z280 >> ez80 (in Z80 mode) > >These all look like Z80 descendents to me - I'd probably rarely, if >ever, run across one to harvest. Z180s do end up in the stragest of places. >> 8085s are common and makes a fair CP/M system. One caveat is that some >> (far from all) applicaions software expects a Z80 though, most run on 8080 >> and above. > >Since the Z80 was rather prolific, and should still be easy to obtain, >either from junked equipment or just new for a couple of bucks from a >place like BG Micro, what would be the appeal of an 8085? Just a >variant on the theme, or is there something neat about it that >warrants investigation? Z80s are easy to find/get as are 8085s. >Since a bit of the requirements of such a system turn on the >applications' needs more than the operating system's needs, I can >throw into the mix that the things I'd probably most likely try to run >would be some flavor of BASIC, Wordstar, an Infocom engine, and most >likely a Scott Adams/Adventure International engine - pretty much the >sort of stuff I would have run in the late 1970s through the mid-1980s >if I'd had a CP/M system of my own. I'd say that a few hundred K of >removable storage and a 64 or 80-char-wide screen should take care of >all of those. Infocom games are 80x24 for best results. For storage i'd advise at least a 360k floppy (if you r doing floppy) as anything smaller is cramped. CP/M programs and stuff bit larger (around 512k) storage systems easier. the best example I give for that is: Basic system, PIP ED,STAT, ASM, DDT, LOAD plus the CP/M BDOS assemble and edit on one drive and between the .bak, Hex, OBJ, PRN you can easily fill a 360k disk and then some. So for storage (floppy) I always advise TEAC55F (or GFR strapped for 300rpm) to get two side 80tracks and about 720/780k formatted. Or a 720K 3.5" floppy. IDE disk makes the space issue go away as 8mb is a large drive for CP/M. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 16:32:57 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:32:57 -0400 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? Message-ID: <0JH000ERSUGM8N5C@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:07:20 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 24 Apr 2007 at 10:12, Allison wrote: > >> At a minimum. FDC interfaces are more involved as the interface has to >> include data and drive interfaces unless one can find a chip like 2793 >> or 37C65. > >My personal favorite is the WD1770/1772 series. It doesn't do >500Kbps drives (no big deal for CP/M); interface logic is very >minimal. Very simple to program; a 4MHz Z80 should be able to keep >up with the data transfer without breaking a sweat. And it fits in a >reasonably small (28 pin) DIP package. > >But a minimal system might incorporate nothing more than a PIIO or >SIO and simply pass mass-storage requests and console I/O over the >same path to a PC using a formatted message scheme. Makes the CBIOS >coding a walk in the park. If the system is 32k eprom with shadow, 1770/72 SIO, CTC and 64k of ram it's called a AmproLB. ;) Great little system on a board. the LB+ adds a 5830 SCSI interface and that makes SCSI hard disk possible. >Or, one could build the Z80 onto a PC prototype board with its own >local memory as a coprocessor and conduct mass storage and console >I/O over a pair of I/O ports. For many, that may be the best of all >worlds as it relieves one of the problem of terminal and disk >interfacing, power supply and enclosure. Of course, the folks who >want to put their project into a mahogany case with glass front may >not be taken with this idea. :) That would be identical to the DecmateII (and III) CP/M APU board. the board is a Z80, 64k of ram and two ports. The DECmate does disk and display work for it. The Z80 APU for the PRO350/380 is similar. It's been done more than once on the ISA bus (PC). As to the wood and glass case. Anything fits inside that! ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 16:51:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:51:36 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH0005CYVBPEONL@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: Warren Wolfe > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:13:32 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 12:21 -0400, Allison wrote: > > >> Another equally sneeky/sleezy trick was to force NOPs (00h) on the buss >> till you hit the rom address where you disable the force nop logic. >> That's slow (takes 61.4mS at 4mhz) though. > > > Only to a computer... That is .0614 seconds, considerably less than >a tenth of a second. Studies have shown that most people cannot even >detect intervals of less than a tenth of a second. Methinks thou dost >protest too much... > > Gee I really didn't think that needed a smiley. Allison From james at machineroom.info Tue Apr 24 16:50:45 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:50:45 +0100 Subject: Why are these SGI boxes double-high? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462E7BB5.9080905@machineroom.info> Richard wrote: > It turns out all this SGI gear is coming from Boeing. That means the > Onyx 2 Reality Monster is likely to have a nice multi-head > configuration :-). Woo hoo! > > So my question is... why is this Onyx and Challenge pictured in a > double-high cabinet? > > > > > Usually when I see a Challenge or Onyx in a photo I see a cabinet that > is half the height of these and that includes space for all the boards > and drives. So what would you need the extra cabinet space for? More > boards and drives or just more drives? Very nice! I've had 2 Onyx and a Challenge in the past and they are splendid machines, especially when fully populated with R10K processors and IR :-) The top half has card cages at the front and back. Front cage has memory & power cards, back has CPU, memory, 3 VME slots and IR graphics on the Onyx machines. Both these card cages share a common back plane. The bottom half has 2 or 3 power supplies at the front and an optional card cage at the back which is used for additional IR pipes. In the middle at the front is the control panel which hinges out and behind this is a disk cage with space for about 12 drives IIRC. The back plane in the Challenge doesn't have the slots for IR cards so is processor, memory and I/O only. The very top has 2 huge extractor fans under the top grille. The 3 power supply model is 3 phase only AFAIK. James http://www.machineroom.info From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 24 16:59:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:59:22 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: Warren Wolfe > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:36:14 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 12:01 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not >> to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to >> keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? > > > No, there is no requirement to keep ANY ROM available after boot. >It is preferable, in most cases, to have the entire address space made >up of RAM once the system is actually running, as opposed to booting. >Some cases involve copying the ROM contents to RAM during boot, and then >disabling ROM. Again, as has been implied, EVERYBODY chose their own >method -- some were better than others, naturally enough. As a matter >of fact, for those systems which implement ROM at 0000 for booting, the >ROM *MUST* be disabled for any even half-way normal CP/M system to run. >(See the previous discussions on CP/M for Radio Shack Models) Basically I like to call it this way. CP/M doesn't care how it gets there, only that it does. >> Right. I know that there are *many* CP/M hardware configurations; I >> am trying to get down the nub of as minimal a hardware design as >> possible. > > > CPU, 64k RAM, disk(ette) controller, ROM able to be disabled (could >be on controller), serial port. Anything else is gravy. > I'd simplify diskette controller to mass storage (any form). >> Sure. For the minimal system I have in mind, I'm planning on a VT100 >> or some modern machine running a terminal emulator (Kermit, et al.) to >> handle screen formatting. > > > Perfect. Yep. Works well enough. >> > A video card will chew up valuable RAM, and many of them are only 16x64, >> > but it does let you do real-time screen updates, games etc. >> >> Ah... now we are onto something - games... are there many games for >> CP/M that require a video card, or were most happy with whatever sort >> of TTY-type device (ANSI codes or not) was out there? > > Video card manufacturers often produced games. Probably the most >common target video card was the VDM-1 card, as in the Sol-20 by >Processor Technology. I have one of those cards in my IMSAI. 16x64, >and takes up 1 K of memory. I've seen boots that involve a VDM-1, and >one 2708 (1K EPROM) that leaves 62K for RAM, and uses the VDM-1 memory >for stack during boot, IIRC. Ugly, but it works. VDM-1 cards require >S-100 bus, or massive hacking. That makes them, probably, outside the >parameters of the "quickest and cheapest" setup you've set. the logic for rolling your own VDM1 equivilent is 1K of ram in the address space and a screen refresh (H and V timing, line counters) are about 10 or so TTL peices. It's actiully simple if you do not have to build a S100 bus interface. You can copy the screen logic for TRS80 as that is a basic 64x16 as well. Real time updates are possible as the refresh/scan logic keep the video going and the CPU does the memory updates for games. Allison From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Apr 24 20:51:14 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:51:14 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:18 PM 4/24/2007, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Richard wrote: > >>Lots of systems made that error. For instance, RSTS/E stored the >>passwords in cleartext and you could list them out if you were a >>privileged (1,*) user. I discovered that when you submitted a batch >>job through the @ processor, it ran as user batch on account (1,2). >>So it wasn't too hard to submit a batch job that ran the ACCOUN >>program to list out the passwords. >Jerome Fine replies: > >Perhaps Zane is following this thread or anyone else >who knows VMS well. I seem to remember that the >userid / password were placed through the same algorithm >as the stored values. The results were compared and >that was what produced a match. In addition, I also >understand that it was impossible to reverse the results >of the "encryption" algorithm. It's not reversible because a hash algorithm is used. A hash deliberately "throws away" information, distilling a string into a smaller representation. (You can't reconstruct an apple from a bowl of applesauce.) That's a common operating system concept first employed by Unix systems. >And with later versions >of VMS, the choice of the password was restricted, possibly >to a string produced at random by VMS itself; this latter >feature prevented users from having the name of a special >individual as the password. In other words, forced generated passwords. Many other OSs allow this; for example, DEC UNIX. >Does anyone know of any other operating system which requires >secure passwords along with storing only the encrypted >equivalents of the userid / password? Lots and lots of 'em. Most unix compatible systems, windows, etc. VMS did not encrypt usernames, BTW. Just passwords. Here's what I see if I edit SYSUAF.DAT on my system: **DEFAULT ************* **DGS ************* **FIELD ************* **MURPHY ************* **SYSTEM ************* **SYSTEST ************* **SYSTEST_CLIG ************* **TCPIP$FTP ************* **TCPIP$REXEC ************* **TCPIP$RSH ************* -Rick From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Apr 25 02:43:52 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:43:52 +0200 Subject: RX01 in SIMH - how to do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883BB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Pechter > Sent: woensdag 25 april 2007 4:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RX01 in SIMH - how to do it? > > On 4/24/07, John A. Dundas III wrote: > > > > Henk, > > > > At 9:56 AM +0200 4/24/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > >I feel like a fool ... I just can't get an RX01 drive > > >configured and attached in SIMH. > > > > As Joe mentioned, make sure only one device is using the CSR > > and vector in SIMH before booting RT-11. Then attach the device > > to the container file. > > > > >If I boot RT11 from a virtual RL02, and do .SH DEV, the DX > > >driver is listed as "Not installed". > > > > Right. It needs to be installed before you use it. For example, > > > > .INS DX: > > > > .LOAD DX: > > > > Now try .SHOW DEVICES and see what happens. > > > > John > > > > IIRC you could give the RX02 a different CSR and Vector and > tell the DY driver the vector and csr at load time to get both in. > > bill > -- > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still > buy it now! > pechter-at-gmail.com Thanks Joe, John, and Bill. All comments together helped a lot! When you set DY disabled, the device is still known to RT11, so I renamed the DY driver extension to "sas" :-) However, DX keeps the CSR and vector which are not the defaults, so I changed them while running RT11. After the reboot, only DX is listed in ".sh dev" and the driver is installed! Breaking to SIMH and attaching a (new) disk container is easy, and the RT11 output is as expected. Below is the (copied) output. Now, I am keeping my fingers crossed ... I hope that SIMH writes the RX01 container file in the physical RX01 floppy disk structure. What I would like to do is creating an RX01 disk file on the PC, and then use Peter McCollum's RX11 emulator to transfer the RX01 disk file to a real PDP-11 RL02 cartridge. We'll see this evening! thanks! - Henk. sim> set cpu 11/70 sim> set rl0 rl02 sim> attach rl0 D:\Apps\simh_rt11\RT11work.dsk sim> set ry disabled sim> boot rl (booting RT11XM) .sh dev DX Not installed 177174 270 DY Not installed 177170 264 .rename dyx.sys dyx.sas .boot rt11xm.sys .sh dev DX Not installed 177174 270 .set dx csr=177170 .ser dx vector=264 .sh dev DX Not installed 177170 264 .boot rt11xm.sys .sh dev DX Installed 177170 264 ^E (break to SIMH) sim> attach rx0 testrx01.dsk RX: creating new file RX: buffering file in memory sim> c dir dx0: ?DIR-F-Invalid directory .init dx0: DX0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y .dir DX0: 0 Files, 0 Blocks 486 Free blocks ^E sim> exit Goodbey RX: writing buffer to file This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 02:49:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:49:03 -0500 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Allison wrote: > I'd simplify diskette controller to mass storage (any form). I had more of a solid-state 'disk' in mind, anyway (SD, CF, etc.) If I'm going to twiddle floppies, I'll just fire up a Kaypro. I might also consider a TU58 emulator running from a modern PC, attached via the B-channel of a Z8530 SIO. This exercise is more about the Z-80 and CP/M than about designing/implementing a floppy controller. > >> > A video card will chew up valuable RAM, and many of them are only 16x64, > >> > but it does let you do real-time screen updates, games etc. > the logic for rolling your own VDM1 equivalent is 1K of ram in the > address space and a screen refresh (H and V timing, line counters) > are about 10 or so TTL pieces. It's actually simple if you do not > have to build a S100 bus interface. If that's the case, I'd probably consider a 6845 - I'm familiar with the chip from the 8032 PET, and I know they aren't hard to find. For now, though, I'm still going to stick with a UART and terminal. > You can copy the screen logic for TRS80 as that is a basic 64x16 as well. Good thing to keep in mind. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 02:55:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:55:10 -0500 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH0004EZU4MPZW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH0004EZU4MPZW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Allison wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Since a bit of the requirements of such a system turn on the > >applications' needs more than the operating system's needs, I can > >throw into the mix that the things I'd probably most likely try to run > >would be some flavor of BASIC, Wordstar, an Infocom engine, and most > >likely a Scott Adams/Adventure International engine - pretty much the > >sort of stuff I would have run in the late 1970s through the mid-1980s > >if I'd had a CP/M system of my own. I'd say that a few hundred K of > >removable storage and a 64 or 80-char-wide screen should take care of > >all of those. > > Infocom games are 80x24 for best results. 80x50 is even better ;-) I've played on 40x25 for many hours - not as much fun, and there's at least one puzzle I can think of that's harder than intended when some formatted text wraps on a 40-col machine, obscuring a major clue. I've ported a Z-Machine to the VIC-20 - 22x23 "works" but is seriously unpleasant. > For storage i'd advise at > least a 360k floppy (if you r doing floppy) as anything smaller is cramped. > CP/M programs and stuff bit larger (around 512k) storage systems easier. I wasn't planning on rotating media - I was thinking about ROM disks and CF, perhaps with a 512K SRAM block-mapped for volatile storage (I have the 512K chips here in my junkbox already - no need to send out). > the best example I give for that is: > > Basic system, PIP ED,STAT, ASM, DDT, LOAD plus the CP/M BDOS assemble > and edit on one drive and between the .bak, Hex, OBJ, PRN you can easily > fill a 360k disk and then some. Those all sound familiar. > So for storage (floppy) I always advise TEAC55F (or GFR strapped for 300rpm) > to get two side 80tracks and about 720/780k formatted. Or a 720K 3.5" floppy. > IDE disk makes the space issue go away as 8mb is a large drive for CP/M. If I were going to go the route of 5.25" media, I would almost certainly use a TEAC FD55GFR since I have more than one in my DEC pile. If I were going to go with 3.5", the options there are limitless for the foreseeable future. I'm still looking towards non-rotating media, however. Thanks for all the input, -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 25 04:15:53 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:15:53 -0500 Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> Golan Klinger wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I'm pretty sure this is the monitor that came bundled with the IBM PS/1 >> series, but if anyone can get a lock on this before Wednesday night I'd >> be most appreciative. > > That is precisely what that is. That monitor is somewhat unique in > that in includes the power supply for the PS/1 and without it, the > PS/1 is useless. As a result, the monitors tend to be more valuable > than the computer they're intended to compliment. If memory serves, some UK x86 series was like this as well... Amstrad maybe? Reminds me of the Coleco Adam, for without a functional daisywheel printer, the entire system would not function (power was in the printer). Thanks for the confirmation! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 25 04:43:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <0JH0004EZU4MPZW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've played on 40x25 for many hours - not as much fun, and there's at > least one puzzle I can think of that's harder than intended when some > formatted text wraps on a 40-col machine, obscuring a major clue. > > I've ported a Z-Machine to the VIC-20 - 22x23 "works" but is seriously > unpleasant. Details! If you're not too shy about it, please upload it to the IF Archive. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at corti-net.de Wed Apr 25 04:52:34 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:52:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The "Scotch" ones have been an unmitigated nightmare. Binder bleed [...] > The "3M" brand are largely recoverable, with a few missing block [...] > Does this match everyone else's experience with these two brands? Yes, absolutely! All of the Scotch/"no name" stuff (DC300 cartridges that were used with IBM 5100/5110 here) are a real nightmare (I still want to save the data on them as they contain many student/research projects of that era). On the other hand the 3M cartridges (although they might have small white belts that break) are all fine. Another nightmare are breaking belts in DC100 cartridges (mostly Scotch brand, but also HP). I will have to try using a belt from a DC2120 cartridge. Christian From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 05:22:01 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:22:01 +1000 Subject: What monitor is this? References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> <462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <004801c78723$91fadb10$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: Re: What monitor is this? > If memory serves, some UK x86 series was like this as well... Amstrad > > maybe? Correct - 1512, an XT clone that powered off the monitor. Worst CGA screen I've ever seen...... cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com:6969/ Bittorent tracker for classic computer files // From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 05:13:23 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:13:23 -0400 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The "Scotch" ones have been an unmitigated nightmare. Binder bleed > [...] >> The "3M" brand are largely recoverable, with a few missing block > [...] >> Does this match everyone else's experience with these two brands? > > Yes, absolutely! All of the Scotch/"no name" stuff (DC300 cartridges > that were used with IBM 5100/5110 here) are a real nightmare (I still > want to save the data on them as they contain many student/research > projects of that era). On the other hand the 3M cartridges (although > they might have small white belts that break) are all fine. That's really strange, because 3M and Scotch are the same company. Peace... Sridhar From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 25 06:25:56 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> References: <042320071439.7116.462CC50700004E6700001BCC22007507440B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: >> The 6300 (and 6300 Plus) were designed and built by Olivetti, probably by >> the same engineers who used to keep Mussolini's trains running on time. >> Their DB-25 video connector is the only reliable way ever discovered to >> break a Radio Shack Daisy Wheel Printer II (aside from tossing the beast >> into a smelter). Convergent did the 7300 and 3B1 Unix PCs (vastly superior >> machines in my arrogant opinion, but I'm partial to just about any MC68k >> series systems that didn't come from Cupertino). > > I don't understand the line about the db25 monitor connector being able to > break a printer. Could you explain? If memory serves, the monochrome monitor on the 6300 was powered from 15V on two pins on the DB25 female connector on the video card. Plugging your parallel printer cable into the video card would do nasty things to the printer. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cc at corti-net.de Wed Apr 25 07:00:19 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:00:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That's really strange, because 3M and Scotch are the same company. I know, but I think that Scotch was the low-cost brand of the 3M company. BTW the original IBM data cartridges for the IBM 51x0 have been produced by 3M, too. You can see the small 3M logo embossed into the metal plate. These "IBM" cartidges are all fine, too (except for the belt...), so they are of 3M instead of Scotch quality. [Maybe Scotch used their adhesive tape as base for the data cartridges ;-))] Christian From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 07:09:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:09:58 -0400 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <462F4516.3020808@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: >> That's really strange, because 3M and Scotch are the same company. > > I know, but I think that Scotch was the low-cost brand of the 3M company. > BTW the original IBM data cartridges for the IBM 51x0 have been produced > by 3M, too. You can see the small 3M logo embossed into the metal plate. > These "IBM" cartidges are all fine, too (except for the belt...), so > they are of 3M instead of Scotch quality. Really, really strange. > [Maybe Scotch used their adhesive tape as base for the data cartridges > ;-))] Have you ever played with rust-covered scotch tape in a reel-to-reel tape player? It works surprisingly well. Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 25 07:14:21 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? In-Reply-To: <462EB2A9.8090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <215081.42036.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Segin wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:20:24 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Mr Ian Primus > > Subject: Re: ST506 / ST412 - never see any 3 1/2"? > > > >> Most were unreliable, Miniscribe comes to mind. > > > > Hehe - Don't forget the wonderful Kalok > Octa-gone... > > > > Octa-went. > > Ah, yes, Kalok; a name that evokes many memories, > none pleasant... > > (although in my experience the Miniscribes weren't > _too_ bad) > > > I have one of those kalok drives, along with an > unidentified board -- > how do I go about using it? I have some Pentium 3 > machines I could put > it in, but I was wondering how exactly do I go about > getting it to work. > > -- Well, first, in getting a Kalok drive to work, you'll need a miracle... The unidentified board you have - is it perhaps, a controller board? What Kalok drive do you have? Some were actually IDE, some SCSI, most that I have seen have been MFM. A lot depends on the interface. I have had luck running an MFM drive on a modern PC by way of using the controller card and disabling the motherboard's onboard IDE controller, and ensuring that the motherboard allows the BIOS of other cards to operate. Are you trying to recover data off this drive? -Ian From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 25 07:27:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:27:45 -0500 Subject: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer collector in same References: Message-ID: <00b901c78735$237057d0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Sellam wrote.... > See below. Please reply to Jamie direckly. This is the same one that contacted me two days ago and that I posted to the list yesterday. Looks like the same reporter contacted Sellam the day after me. I wasn't going to post her phone number to the list but... The contact info is all the same, so to those who responded to my post already - contact her directly. Jay West From wizard at voyager.net Wed Apr 25 07:34:41 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:34:41 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462ED0AE.60806@oldskool.org> References: <0JGT009QAM3X1JE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> , <462A1FFB.12595.3D4FB1@cclist.sydex.com>, <462AE4CC.2000007@oldskool.org> <462A9C50.9555.222F77D@cclist.sydex.com> <462B043E.2030001@oldskool.org> <1177281147.4712.265.camel@linux.site> <462ED0AE.60806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1177504482.4712.381.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 22:53 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: > > Imagine my surprise when DisplayWrite would not even run. Seven > > million for a study, and they didn't bother to even set it up. Sheesh. > > Anyway, I ended up talking to Mort Myerson, the V.P. of EDS within a few > > minutes, and I explained the situation to him. He said he would take > > care of it. In the meanwhile, I was using a debugger to try to find out > > what actual problem was causing the failure. It turns out that > > DisplayWrite checked the BIOS ROM, and if it did NOT find "IBM" it shut > > down. I figured we would get IBM to change the program... but, no. > > Within a couple of hours about five Bell Labs techs showed up asking for > > me, and got to work on the BIOS. I explained what I had found, and they > > verified it. They then re-assembled the BIOS with a nonsense trademark > > notice about IBM, and started cranking out copies of the new chip. > > DisplayWrite then found "IBM" in the BIOS, and was happy. > > Hopefully you're not blaming the AT&T 6300 for that mess... I think the > "IBM-string-in-the-BIOS-check" by the software is completely arbitrary > and the real dunce of the story... I thought the AT&T 6300 PC was more than a little cheesy. That's mostly because of the crap that EDS had put in them to save a few dollars. But, clearly, this particular problem had NOTHING to do with the 6300s. And, IBM trying to ensure that their software only runs on their machines, as it says on the box, while a marketing strategy that borders on the retarded, is their right. No, my real grouse in this situation was with EDS. To take a seven million dollar payment (IIRC) as a consulting fee, and throw up (pun intended) a cheese-bag system with a monocrhome IRMA card to run color CAD/CAM, and select software and hardware without even seeing if the software runs on that system, is such an outrageous action, I find it hard to believe. I know that if I had ever done anything even remotely like that, I would have been sued within an inch of my life. It shows how carefully they evaluated it, and how they DIDN'T earn their money. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Wed Apr 25 07:42:11 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:42:11 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH0005CYVBPEONL@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH0005CYVBPEONL@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1177504932.4712.385.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 17:51 -0400, Allison wrote: > >> Another equally sneeky/sleezy trick was to force NOPs (00h) on the buss > >> till you hit the rom address where you disable the force nop logic. > >> That's slow (takes 61.4mS at 4mhz) though. > > > > > > Only to a computer... That is .0614 seconds, considerably less than > >a tenth of a second. Studies have shown that most people cannot even > >detect intervals of less than a tenth of a second. Methinks thou dost > >protest too much... > > Gee I really didn't think that needed a smiley. I'm a major shareholder in SmileyCo. Please use smileys wherever practical. Most people don't know any other way to use a semicolon; the warehouses are jammed with them. Peace, Captain Literal, wizard at voyager.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 08:03:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:03:53 -0400 Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: <004801c78723$91fadb10$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> <462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> <004801c78723$91fadb10$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, Lance Lyon wrote: > From: "Jim Leonard" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: What monitor is this? > > > > If memory serves, some UK x86 series was like this as well... Amstrad > > > maybe? > > Correct - 1512, an XT clone that powered off the monitor. Worst CGA screen > I've ever seen...... Not like the Amstrad PC1640 with that 14-pin-DIN power connector? http://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/1640tech/section1.html#1.21 -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 11:06:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:06:10 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <462F1A02.25111.13ADF445@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 14:00, Christian Corti wrote: > I know, but I think that Scotch was the low-cost brand of the 3M company. > BTW the original IBM data cartridges for the IBM 51x0 have been produced > by 3M, too. You can see the small 3M logo embossed into the metal plate. > These "IBM" cartidges are all fine, too (except for the belt...), so they > are of 3M instead of Scotch quality. It's very confusing. "Scotch" brand used to have a very respected following among reel-to-reel audio tape people (with the exception of 777--that acetate-based stuff seemed to degrade faster than anything). But the 3M carts are very clearly superior to the Scotch ones. The determining factor doesn't seem to be age either--all of the carts I'm working on were recorded within the space of 2 years. I'm going to bake a couple of them to see if I can get better results, but a big problem is adhesion of the oxide to the tension belt--I don't know what to do about that--the oxide seems to form a better bond with the belt than it does with the base. I'm assuming that a couple of hours of heating the base plate to about 130F (about 55C) will do as much good as anything will. Beyond replacing the tension belt and praying, that seems to be about the extent of what can be done. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 11:20:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:20:32 -0700 Subject: HP 16c In-Reply-To: <462EF5D3.9080203@gmail.com> References: <462EF5D3.9080203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <462F1D60.21644.13BB1BA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 2:31, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I've read the reviews of the HP 16C online for a long time, and people > are always singing their praises. > > When I'm writing assembler, I always have my HP 28S within arm's reach, > and I definitely see its value. Does anyone have information regarding > features present in the 16C that aren't present in the 28S? Shrug. If the truth be told, I suspect that most programmers using the 16C probably don't use it for much more than 4 (well maybe 6 with shift and booleans) banger arithmetic. I can't even remember when I last used the programming features on mine. But, as a simple calculator for hex, it's got a better laid-out keyboard and a less-cluttered display than the two-sided 28S/C. I do get irritated from time to time by the display not being able to show an entire 64-bit number without scrolling to the right and left. The 16C can form a 128-bit product; can the 28S? And the batteries last pretty much forever. I've replaced them once since I bought the thing almost 25 years ago. Not too shabby. I wish HP would re-introduce the thing. There are some improvements that would make it more useful. I suspect the market for them is even smaller than it was in 1982, however. There are more programmers around, but few have the need to work regularly in binary. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 25 11:21:23 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit H89 with dual floppy disk and stuff in Colorado Message-ID: Someone in Colorado Springs is offering up a nice Heathkit H89 system with dual floppies and a printer and probably some manuals and software for the cost of shipping. First responder gets the contact info. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 25 11:26:28 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:26:28 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation Message-ID: <462F8134.8000905@bitsavers.org> > I'm assuming that a couple of hours of heating the base plate to > about 130F (about 55C) will do as much good as anything will. There was a posting in the HP tape thread about using a lamp to heat the tensioning belt here within the past six months. Can't find it right now, though. I've observed the same thing with blue-labeled DC300s and 450s From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 25 11:25:29 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need schematics for Gridcase 1535 Message-ID: Does anyone have or know where I can get schematics for the Gridcase 1535? Please reply directly if you can help. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 25 11:40:28 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 at Purdue University July 14-15 Message-ID: This is just a quick reminder that VCF Midwest 3.0 is scheduled for July 14-15 at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana. Our esteemed Pat Finnegan is again the prime mover and shaker behind the largest extravaganza Indiana has seen since Farmer Ted in Baxton pulled a plow clear across his cornfield with his teeth. There is a possibility of having a working IBM 129 punch and 082 sorter combination at the event. They are currently located in St. Louis, MO. I am starting to investigate the logistics of hauling them the 272 miles from St. Louis to West Lafayette. Is anyone willing to participate in this utter folly? If so, you get to punch the first card at VCF East 3.0! Please e-mail me directly if you want to help with this. After the event they'll be heading out to California to join the VCF Archives. Upcoming VCF events worldwide: VCF Europa 8.0 - Munich, Germany THIS WEEKEND! VCF East 4.0 - Wall, NJ June 9-10 VCF Midwest 3.0 - Purdue University, Indiana July 14-15 VCF 10.0 - THE BIGGIE: you won't want to miss this one... November 3-4 For a complete schedule of upcoming VCF Events: http://www.vintage.org/events.php Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 25 11:50:46 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit H89 with dual floppy disk and stuff in Colorado In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201532.5769.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm interested. Bob Sellam Ismail wrote: Someone in Colorado Springs is offering up a nice Heathkit H89 system with dual floppies and a printer and probably some manuals and software for the cost of shipping. First responder gets the contact info. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 25 12:02:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:02:11 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 at Purdue University July 14-15 References: Message-ID: <002b01c7875b$7bb59560$6400a8c0@BILLING> You wrote... > There is a possibility of having a working IBM 129 punch and 082 sorter > combination at the event. They are currently located in St. Louis, MO. I > am starting to investigate the logistics of hauling them the 272 miles > from St. Louis to West Lafayette. Is anyone willing to participate in > this utter folly? If so, you get to punch the first card at VCF East 3.0! Yikes... I MIGHT be able to help... depends on size, weight.... plus I might be able to get them to VCFmw but it's less likely I could get them back to St. Louis as there's a strong chance I'll be returning with lotsOgear already. And ya know... VCF "midwest" is probably a misnomer. Give there's an East and West, this would should probably be called "Central" :) Jay From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 12:15:47 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:15:47 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H89 with dual floppy disk and stuff in Colorado In-Reply-To: <201532.5769.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201532.5769.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0704251015o22e4d886g158e8e7aa8eb178f@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for the lead. I guess I was just lucky to be checking my email this AM at the right time! I just sent him a nice email making my introduction. I hope to have a chance to meet you this fall and shake your hand. bob. On 4/25/07, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > I'm interested. > > Bob > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > Someone in Colorado Springs is offering up a nice Heathkit H89 system with > dual floppies and a printer and probably some manuals and software for the > cost of shipping. > > First responder gets the contact info. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 25 12:17:52 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 at Purdue University July 14-15 In-Reply-To: <002b01c7875b$7bb59560$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <002b01c7875b$7bb59560$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Jay West wrote: > You wrote... > > There is a possibility of having a working IBM 129 punch and 082 sorter > > combination at the event. They are currently located in St. Louis, MO. > > I > > am starting to investigate the logistics of hauling them the 272 miles > > from St. Louis to West Lafayette. Is anyone willing to participate in > > this utter folly? If so, you get to punch the first card at VCF East > > 3.0! > > Yikes... I MIGHT be able to help... depends on size, weight.... plus I > might be able to get them to VCFmw but it's less likely I could get them > back to St. Louis as there's a strong chance I'll be returning with > lotsOgear already. Don't worry, they'll leave Purdue on route to California ;) If you can haul, I'll pay for gas and buy the beers. > And ya know... VCF "midwest" is probably a misnomer. Give there's an > East and West, this would should probably be called "Central" :) ARGGH! Take it up with Pat ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:00:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:00:24 -0500 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? Message-ID: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> Seeking recommendations for a good MSDOS/FreeDOS-compatible binary file viewer (hex / ASCII modes) to stick on my Imagedisk machine... Technically I don't actually need any editing facilities - just the viewer side would do. I think PCTools came with a reasonable one at one point, but there's probably something better out there that's downloadable... cheers Jules From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Apr 25 13:10:05 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:10:05 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 at Purdue University July 14-15 In-Reply-To: <002b01c7875b$7bb59560$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070425140647.05233fc8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >And ya know... VCF "midwest" is probably a misnomer. Give there's an East >and West, this would should probably be called "Central" :) Ignoring the smiley for a second, I _think_ that it's from a time when most people were on the east coast, and where we are was half-way to the west coast - therefore "mid-west," or mid-way to the western shore. ;-) A lot of people say I reside in the midwest, but I always tell 'em I'm in "the way the hell North" - but they never seem to know where that actually is.... but other than "nowhere" I'm not in the middle of anything, west or otherwise! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 25 14:24:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:24:17 -0600 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462FAAE1.8070307@jetnet.ab.ca> >> You can copy the screen logic for TRS80 as that is a basic 64x16 as well. > Good thing to keep in mind. Well if anybody is doing VDM-1's the big problem is that you can't find the Character ROM any more. I like the idea of TTL display like VDM-1 but since this is not the late 70's a 80x24 screen is reasonable and the data out is a simple VGA format, since the monitors are easy to come by. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 13:26:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:26:03 -0700 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 13:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > Seeking recommendations for a good MSDOS/FreeDOS-compatible binary file viewer > (hex / ASCII modes) to stick on my Imagedisk machine... > > Technically I don't actually need any editing facilities - just the viewer > side would do. > > I think PCTools came with a reasonable one at one point, but there's probably > something better out there that's downloadable... You can't beat Vern Buerg's Veneered and Generated LIST. After many years, still my favorite. http://www.buerg.com/ Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 25 13:31:13 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:31:13 -0500 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462F9E71.8000200@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Seeking recommendations for a good MSDOS/FreeDOS-compatible binary file > viewer (hex / ASCII modes) to stick on my Imagedisk machine... > > Technically I don't actually need any editing facilities - just the > viewer side would do. > > I think PCTools came with a reasonable one at one point, but there's > probably something better out there that's downloadable... I wrote one but it might not serve your needs; it was built as the fastest way to view text in a binary file. Check it out here: http://www.oldskool.org/pc/texview My focus was instant start and fast screen writing (in fact, I make the claim that the included text "fastwrite" code is the fastest for 808x on the planet, with or without "snow" handling). If you want hex, I could be persuaded to add a traditional hex view, just email me what you're looking for privately. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Apr 25 13:30:44 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:30:44 +0200 Subject: Too much 8-bit, now DEC again ! Message-ID: <462F9E54.7080304@bluewin.ch> Time to kill of the CP/M thread ! ( just kidding, I am still wanting to build a junkbox CP/M system ..) Our IT department has been cleaning out : Next to stuff I do not find interesting ( Sparcstation 20, ultrasparc 5, DEC 3000) there was a uvax 3800, with 2 expansion cabinets. I first saved the QBUS scsi controller (cqd-223/tmj) Then common sense went down the drain and I set aside the uvax itself. Now which disks would be worth saving ? (Many RZ-28 in their own cabinet ,and 2 each of RF31, RF71, RF72 ) Should I bother at all with the RF-drives, or just go SCSI only ? Jos ( stuff located in Zurich, Switzerland ) From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 25 13:32:30 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:32:30 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: References: <042320071439.7116.462CC50700004E6700001BCC22007507440B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <462F9EBE.8050908@oldskool.org> Mike Loewen wrote: >> I don't understand the line about the db25 monitor connector being >> able to break a printer. Could you explain? > > If memory serves, the monochrome monitor on the 6300 was powered from > 15V on two pins on the DB25 female connector on the video card. Plugging > your parallel printer cable into the video card would do nasty things to > the printer. Ah, I forgot that the monitor was female. Yes, a mistake like that would most likely make a peripheral go poof. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 13:40:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:40:08 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <462FAAE1.8070307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <462FAAE1.8070307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, woodelf wrote: > >> You can copy the screen logic for TRS80 as that is a basic 64x16 as well. > > Good thing to keep in mind. > > Well if anybody is doing VDM-1's the big problem is that you can't find > the Character ROM any more. I like the idea of TTL display like VDM-1 > but since this is not the late 70's a 80x24 screen is reasonable > and the data out is a simple VGA format, since the monitors are easy to > come by. As in the old Chargen ROMs like on this board? http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/d/h/tvt.jpg (I have one that I bought new and has yet to be attached to a KIM-1). With as fast as CMOS ROMs are today, why not use a 27C64 and burn your own charset to it? It's not tough to do, but is there a technical reason it wouldn't work? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 13:49:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:49:49 -0700 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <462FAAE1.8070307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, , <462FAAE1.8070307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <462F405D.18025.1443C744@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 13:24, woodelf wrote: > Well if anybody is doing VDM-1's the big problem is that you can't find > the Character ROM any more. I like the idea of TTL display like VDM-1 > but since this is not the late 70's a 80x24 screen is reasonable > and the data out is a simple VGA format, since the monitors are easy to > come by. At the expense of getting booed off the topic, if you need simple 80x24 and are using something like an 8085, the 8275/8276 CRT controller with an 8257 DMA controller (in auto-initialize mode) doesn't take a lot of extra glue. The gotcha is that "special effects" like bolding and underlining take up space on the display (Doesn't the Wyse 50 do that?). There is a "transparent" mode, but management of the screen buffer becomes a real headache. I've never tried to interface an 8257 to a Z80, so I don't know if the timing works there. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 13:50:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, der Mouse wrote: > The "traditional" Unix password hash is DES-based (the trivialized > Enigma code is crypt(1), not crypt(3)). Was there an even older > version? Did it ever escape Bell Labs? > > For that matter, was enough publicly known about the Enigma at the time > to do that then? I thought that Unix (1969) was developed well after WW2. Didn't WW2 end in the 1940s? After WW2, the Enigma was well understood, and was no longer an enigma. The basic principles of the Enigma were well known, enough for the British to make an emulator. It was the details of the wheels and the codes that were hard to come by. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 14:03:51 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:03:51 -0400 Subject: Too much 8-bit, now DEC again ! In-Reply-To: <462F9E54.7080304@bluewin.ch> References: <462F9E54.7080304@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > Time to kill of the CP/M thread ! > ( just kidding, I am still wanting to build a junkbox CP/M system ..) > > Our IT department has been cleaning out : > > Next to stuff I do not find interesting ( Sparcstation 20, ultrasparc > 5, DEC 3000) there was a uvax 3800, with 2 expansion cabinets. > I first saved the QBUS scsi controller (cqd-223/tmj) > Then common sense went down the drain and I set aside the uvax itself. > > Now which disks would be worth saving ? > (Many RZ-28 in their own cabinet ,and 2 each of RF31, RF71, RF72 ) There is a demand for RF disks on ebay, so obviously you should save them for those who need them. vax, 9000 Should I bother at all with the RF-drives, or just go SCSI only ? > > Jos > ( stuff located in Zurich, Switzerland ) > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 14:09:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Rick Murphy wrote: > It's not reversible because a hash algorithm is used. A hash > deliberately "throws away" information, distilling a string into a > smaller representation. (You can't reconstruct an apple from a bowl of > applesauce.) That's a common operating system concept first employed by > Unix systems. Yes, but it is possible, either by brute force or clever programming, to write a job that will produce a string that will hash to the same hashcode as the target password. With a 16bit hashcode, a set of 65536 strings can be made and sequenced that will work for any 16 bit hashcode with that algorithm. It will most likely be a nonsense string of characters, rather than the name of the user's canary, but it will work. In fact, if you were to start filling in the table with a dictionary/namelist approach, many of the "passwords" will actually match! Just how common ARE "sex", "love", and "god"? The remainder of the table can be completed using the nine billion names of god. That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret, and access to the hashcodes for accounts shuld be limited. How many people here remember any of the "master" passwords of TRS-DOS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 25 14:40:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:40:23 -0500 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <462FAEA7.5040204@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > The basic principles of the Enigma were well known, enough for the British > to make an emulator. It was the details of the wheels and the codes that > were hard to come by. Indeed - the patent for the machine was granted in 1918 I think, and the machine was intended as much for business as it was for military purposes; there was just no interest initially because the price was too high. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 25 15:02:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> For that matter, was enough publicly known about the Enigma at the >> time to do that then? > I thought that Unix (1969) was developed well after WW2. It was, yes. > After WW2, the Enigma was well understood, and was no longer an > enigma. Not an enigma to the cryptographers who worked on breaking it, no. But my understanding was that only recently was much of that data declassified. Note that I said *publicly* known.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From grant at stockly.com Wed Apr 25 15:03:52 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:03:52 -0800 Subject: Small World Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070425115515.058beec0@pop.1and1.com> Forrest M. Mims III was one of the founders of MITS in 1969. He developed various model rocketry kits and left MITS a year or two later. MITS later on contracted with him to write the Altair Operators Manual in exchange for an Altair computer. That Altair has been on display at the Smithsonian for over 17 years. He later on wrote a book called "Getting Started in Electronics" for RadioShack which was given to me in 1997. This book "got me started in electronics" and led me to eventually reproduce the Altair. So last week I received an unsolicited e-mail from Mims congratulating me on the work. : ) I'm probably a "youngster" compared to many here, but anyone else have an experience like this? Meet someone from the past through unrelated projects that all tie togther? http://www.sunandsky.org/MITS_History.php http://www.sunandsky.org/ http://www.forrestmims.org/ http://www.forrestmims.com/ Grant From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 25 15:04:12 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> It's not reversible because a hash algorithm is used. [...] > Yes, but it is possible, either by brute force or clever programming, > to write a job that will produce a string that will hash to the same > hashcode as the target password. By definition, if you can do better than brute force, you need a better hash algorithm. > With a 16bit hashcode, a set of 65536 strings can be made and > sequenced that will work for any 16 bit hashcode with that algorithm. Yes and no. This is true provided the algorithm is not salted, or you consider each salt as a separate algorithm - or as part of the hashcode size. Otherwise, your dictionary size must be multipled by the number of possible salts - that's what salts are *for*. > It will most likely be a nonsense string of characters, rather than > the name of the user's canary, but it will work. Not necessarily; for example, if it contains NL or NUL characters, it will not work as a Unix password, even if it does produce the correct hash when shoved through the algorithm. > In fact, if you were to start filling in the table with a > dictionary/namelist approach, many of the "passwords" will actually > match! This has been done. It's why password hashes are salted - to multiply the necessary dictinoary size by the number of possible salts. > That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret, Security through obscurity? Doesn't work. Certainly not in a case like this, where implementations of the algorithm are, perforce, widespread. > and access to the hashcodes for accounts shuld be limited. That helps, a little, but it's a belt-and-suspenders measure. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 15:15:22 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:15:22 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704251315k57f71b5dnbc74f3eca772eda5@mail.gmail.com> On 25/04/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret, and > access to the hashcodes for accounts shuld be limited. Uh-oh. I think you forgot to add a smiley there... (If you didn't: this is a major security no-no! Keeping the encryption algorithm secret is NEVER a good idea - didn't work for the germans, never worked for anybody. There are many many books on the topic that will explain better than I can in this list about why this is the case.) Joe. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 15:16:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:46 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > In fact, if you were to start filling in the table with a > dictionary/namelist approach, many of the "passwords" will actually match! > Just how common ARE "sex", "love", and "god"? I never found any of those when I used to run Crack on a quarterly basis to look for weak passwords at a former job. I did find plenty of trivial passwords like "abc" combined with small numeric suffixes and/or prefixes, though - all found *very* quickly by Crack. The ones that took the longest (2 out of 400 users) were dictionary words with the common 1=i, 0=o sorts of substitutions and no punctuation. They were cracked during my normal run, but not in the first 15 minutes. Anything with just "abc" and numbers fell in seconds or minutes. We did not allow enough time for a strict brute-force attack, so the half of the users who did not use modified or unmodified words from a dictionary fared well. The closest thing I have to a match for the "classic" passwords was a variant on what could be considered the cynical antonym of love... "divorce". That user probably used to use 'love'. > How many people here remember any of the "master" passwords of TRS-DOS? Not me, but I did spend time with a sector editor/disk image editor to extract the password in the Personal Software edition of Zork I. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 25 16:17:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:17:28 -0600 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <462FC568.1040309@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > In fact, if you were to start filling in the table with a > dictionary/namelist approach, many of the "passwords" will actually match! > Just how common ARE "sex", "love", and "god"? > The remainder of the table can be completed using the nine billion names > of god. Well not quite... The universe ended at the end of that story. Rather quite hard to get the names re-printed again. > That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret, and > access to the hashcodes for accounts shuld be limited. My gripe is all the stupid passwords needed to access almost anything on the net, all kept safe until windows crashes. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > . > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 25 16:23:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:23:36 -0600 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: References: <0JH000BD9VON6Y51@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <462FAAE1.8070307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <462FC6D8.9040305@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > With as fast as CMOS ROMs are today, why not use a 27C64 and burn your > own charset to it? It's not tough to do, but is there a technical > reason it wouldn't work? That works but to find the PROM data you have to look at some very old memory data books. I have yet to find any nice 8x11? fonts that fit in a 9x12 character block could be copied. > -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 15:27:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:27:48 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462FAEA7.5040204@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net>, <462FAEA7.5040204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <462F5754.622.149D7AC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 14:40, Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed - the patent for the machine was granted in 1918 I think, and the > machine was intended as much for business as it was for military purposes; > there was just no interest initially because the price was too high. There was an article on this subject in "Invention and Technology" magazine some years ago. Few know that the basic mechanism for the Enigma was invented by an American and unsuccessfully peddled to the US Navy, who couldn't conceive of a need for such a thing. Great minds at work... Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 25 15:48:10 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > On 4/25/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > How many people here remember any of the "master" passwords of TRS-DOS? http://www.tim-mann.org/trs80faq.html#[11] Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 25 15:53:11 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:53:11 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret No, quite the opposite. The hashcode algorithm should be as public as possible so any weakness can be found. What keeps a hashcode secure is the amount of time it takes to find collisions. The hashes themselves, yes, keep those secret. I have a string that has an MD5 hash of d373a246bddeed37feec0c1c7c7b92ca. Find a string (this one or any other) that has that hash. The algorithm for MD5 is well known, and it is no longer considered to be cryptographic strength. It can't take significantly more than 2^128 trials to find a match. At a nanosecond per trial, that's only 10802614822886935348043 years to complete the job. Certain weeknesses make it less secure than (since there are ways of generating identical strings with identical MD5s if you start with a known MD5 collision) you would really like for passwords. But feel free to try coming up with a match for that one. Now try to find the one that also has an sha1 hash of d79b75daa96671379b52210e1e3bf341c061f1cf Eric From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Apr 25 16:28:10 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:28:10 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C57A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: That's really strange, because 3M and Scotch are the same company. Peace... Sridhar ----------- Billy: 3M manufactured for dozens of companies. They would make bulk tape (usually 18" wide) for almost anyone, including the 3M and the Scotch brand name. Many companies would supply the formula for the binder, oxide slurry, and suface coating. So even though the tape came from the same production line on the same day, it could be radically different. 3M was excellent about controlling the IP. So even though they made tape to spec for a competitor, the detailed data would not reach their brand name group. At one time in the late 60's I visited their production line. They claimed that they were making 90% of all the .5" tape on the market at that time. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 16:34:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:34:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Got ten WY-30 Wyse terminals to fix at tv shop. In-Reply-To: <20070424233335.RWOB1646.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Apr 24, 7 07:34:26 pm Message-ID: > > WY-30, part no: 900023-01 > > Intial three I checked, are non-responding and no screen. Opened up > one and found that power supply is working and correctly regulating > 5V and other supplies for the CRT (heater glowing direct power from > PSU) but the deflection section not sweeping. Checked digital > section and found the 68B00 (6800) is non-functioning, not even a > reset twitter on any of signals at instant of power on. Tried > replugging the ICs, xtal is oscillating thru a IC with many outputs. > > Any suggestions? Is the processor getting a clock signal? If not, where does it come from (trace back from the processor). What about the processor reset pin? Is the processor being held in the reset state? -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Apr 25 16:40:09 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:40:09 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> References: <042320071439.7116.462CC50700004E6700001BCC22007507440B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <462FCAB9.9020805@gifford.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: >> The 6300 (and 6300 Plus) were designed and built by Olivetti.. >> Their DB-25 video connector is the only reliable way ever >> discovered to break a Radio Shack Daisy Wheel Printer II > > I don't understand the line about the db25 monitor connector being able > to break a printer. Could you explain? The monitor connector on the Olivetti M24 and the ATT 6300 was a 25-pin "D" connector (DB25), just like a parallel printer port. But the monitor connector carried a low voltage DC power supply for the proprietary monochome monitor (12V or maybe 24V). This power supply would blow up any printer that was accidentally plugged in to the video socket. I saw this happen in about 1987 on an Olivetti M24 that was fitted with the EGC (Enhanced Graphics Controller), leaving the original 25-pin monitor socket empty. Someone plugged a parallel printer (a Hermes colour dot-matrix) into the monitor socket, and it didn't work any more. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 17:20:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:20:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177457238.4712.373.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 24, 7 07:27:17 pm Message-ID: > > What's the problem with your unit? Does it appear to be a digital > > problem, or a problem with monitor circuit? > > > Digital, I suspect. Although, this is a rather bizarre problem, and > COULD be a video problem, I suppose. When I boot it up, it works > correctly, as far as I can tell, with the single exception that the > screen shows what it should be showing, only in reverse video, and > without the characters being visible, whatever the brightness level. In I am not sure quite what you mean here. Do yuo mean that all characters (other than space) appear as solid blocks? Boy do you need the schmatics! I've looked at the 150 'Video Alpha Display Sybsystem' and the overall design is what you'd expect, but the details are odd. And I susepct it's one of those odd bits that's causing the problems OK, the basic dsegin is a CRT controller -- here an SMC9007 (U315) which addreeses the video RAM. The output of the video RAM is 16 bits wide (character and attrboutes), the character part -- 10 bits of it -- goes to the address lines of a character generator ROM U512. The output of that goes to a shift register (U511 and U612, 'S195) which does the obvious dot serialisation. The attribute logic is compiclated, but based round a 16L6 HAL (mask programmed PAL) U314. I do _not_ have the PAL equatiuons. The outputs of that are latced (U614, '174) and feed the 'Dot Stream Mixer', a 'S153 mux which combines the alpha dots and the graphics system dots, and which then produses the Full Brightness and Half Brightness signals to the 'Sweep' (monitor) PCB. The complicated bit is round those shift registers I mentioned. There's some logic to, I think, make the line-drawing characters touch on-screen. This is controlled bu U46b ('S74) and is based rounf U78b ('S112) and U713b and a ('S09),, U712d ('LS00) and U610a ('S32) There's even a couple of gates between the 2 shift register ICs, but I think if that was the problem you'd get half of each character displayed correctly. I think I'd start by looking at pin 3 of U713. That's the alpha dot stream going into the mixing logic. What you're looking for is fine enough pulses to be character dots, rather htan complete character cells. If You've got that, suspect a problem round U715. If not (and I think you won't have it), go back to U78b, etc. > > [1] Although I always thought Tektronix made better 'scopes :-) > > > I think the Tek's may have been more fully-featured, but I liked the > HP 'scopes just fine. If you leave the two companies out of it, you've > cut off almost all the truly great 'scopes. Oh, I quited like Nicolet and LeCroy :-). Not that I own any of their instrumnets, alas.. > > > > > I have an _old_ -- over 40 eyars old -- HP frequncy counter. > > > Sounds like you are discussing an HP 5245L... Exactly. Well, it could also have been a 5243L, which is the 10MHz version (the 5245 being 50MHz). I have one of each. Actually, a fair number of the PCBs are common to both instruemtns. I also have some, but certianly not all, of the plug-ins > Yes! Our lab had a cesium beam that we used as an external standard > for the 5245Ls. Truth be told, however, there really wasn't much Alas I have to 'make do' with the internal crystal. I am told that HP sold a rubidium beam (sub)standard that was in a 19" rack module, and which you simply cabled up to the external oscillator input on the 5245L. I don't hjave it, thouhg. > difference, especially if one "tuned up" the crystal oscillator by > beating it against the Cs beam frequency reference. We were ACCURATE. That's the problem. Unless you have a Rb or CS beam reference, it's almost impossible to calibrate the crystal, and the crystal can and will drift slightly over time. Not enough to bother me (I am darn sure the instruemnt is more accurate than any modern thing that I could afford), but still. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 17:27:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:27:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <462ED13B.5040808@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 24, 7 10:55:39 pm Message-ID: > I don't understand the line about the db25 monitor connector being able > to break a printer. Could you explain? The Olivetti M24 (and I guess the AT&T 6300) used a DB25 conenctor for the monitor -- socket on the back of the machine, plug on the monitor cable. This connector carried power lines (+/-12V I think, maybe just +12V) for a monochrome monitor. If you plugged a normal PC printer cable into that socket, that supply did nasty things ot the input logic (at least) of the printer on the other end of the cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 17:40:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:40:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 25, 7 09:03:53 am Message-ID: > > > If memory serves, some UK x86 series was like this as well... Amstrad > > > > maybe? > > > > Correct - 1512, an XT clone that powered off the monitor. Worst CGA screen > > I've ever seen...... > > Not like the Amstrad PC1640 with that 14-pin-DIN power connector? Exactly. IIRC the 1512 and 1640 are pretty similar machines (the '512' and '640' part of the model number is, of course, the amount of RAM it was sold with). The PPC512/PPC640 ('Laptops' that are actually wider than a PDP11 panel) have a 14 pin DIN power connector too. It's possible to power one from the monitor off a PC1512 (and said laptops can produce an MDA or CGA video output on a DE9 connecotr). I don't know if anybody ever made use of this feature, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 17:47:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:47:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 25, 7 12:09:22 pm Message-ID: > How many people here remember any of the "master" passwords of TRS-DOS? I remember 'LDOSOKVS' on LDOS 5.1.3 -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Apr 25 17:52:32 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:52:32 -0300 Subject: NEED: Hardware or software emulator for the TMP68301 Message-ID: <009701c7878c$f2343f30$f0fea8c0@alpha> Dear friends, Anyone knows where can I find a hardware or software emulator for the TMP68301 microcontroller from Texas? I want to do some messing with an old processor board. Thanks Alexandre Souza From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 25 18:12:51 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Small World In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070425115515.058beec0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070425231251.B26CF5887D@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Grant Stockly > > Forrest M. Mims III was one of the founders of MITS in 1969. He developed > various model rocketry kits and left MITS a year or two later. MITS later > on contracted with him to write the Altair Operators Manual in exchange for > an Altair computer. That Altair has been on display at the Smithsonian for > over 17 years. > > He later on wrote a book called "Getting Started in Electronics" for > RadioShack which was given to me in 1997. This book "got me started in > electronics" and led me to eventually reproduce the Altair. > > So last week I received an unsolicited e-mail from Mims congratulating me > on the work. : ) > That is just too cool! I would be doing the Wayne's World "We're not worthy!" . :) Cheers!!, Bryan > I'm probably a "youngster" compared to many here, but anyone else have an > experience like this? Meet someone from the past through unrelated > projects that all tie togther? > > http://www.sunandsky.org/MITS_History.php > http://www.sunandsky.org/ > http://www.forrestmims.org/ > http://www.forrestmims.com/ > > Grant > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 18:16:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070425161411.F72537@shell.lmi.net> > > After WW2, the Enigma was well understood, and was no longer an > > enigma. On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, der Mouse wrote: > Not an enigma to the cryptographers who worked on breaking it, no. But > my understanding was that only recently was much of that data > declassified. Note that I said *publicly* known.... That makes sense. Many things are publicly known, but still classified. (cointelpro, CIA cocaine smuggling, and many others, some of which only hardcore conspiracy nuts know about) From rcini at optonline.net Wed Apr 25 18:21:02 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:21:02 -0400 Subject: Small World In-Reply-To: <20070425231251.B26CF5887D@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: You know, it's funny you mention this. Over the weekend, I received an email from Forrest, too. I had corresponded with him in the past about Ed Roberts and the Altair within the context of my Altair32 Emulator work. He emailed me this weekend to compliment me on the rework of the Altair32 Web site and to remind me about the New Mexico Museum of Natural History STARTUP exhibit. "Please check out the STARTUP Exhibit at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History, which held its grand opening last November: http://www.startupgallery.org/gallery/index.php" On 4/25/07 7:12 PM, "Bryan Pope" wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Grant Stockly >> >> Forrest M. Mims III was one of the founders of MITS in 1969. He developed >> various model rocketry kits and left MITS a year or two later. MITS later >> on contracted with him to write the Altair Operators Manual in exchange for >> an Altair computer. That Altair has been on display at the Smithsonian for >> over 17 years. >> >> He later on wrote a book called "Getting Started in Electronics" for >> RadioShack which was given to me in 1997. This book "got me started in >> electronics" and led me to eventually reproduce the Altair. >> >> So last week I received an unsolicited e-mail from Mims congratulating me >> on the work. : ) >> > > That is just too cool! I would be doing the Wayne's World "We're not > worthy!" . :) > > Cheers!!, > > Bryan > > >> I'm probably a "youngster" compared to many here, but anyone else have an >> experience like this? Meet someone from the past through unrelated >> projects that all tie togther? >> >> http://www.sunandsky.org/MITS_History.php >> http://www.sunandsky.org/ >> http://www.forrestmims.org/ >> http://www.forrestmims.com/ >> >> Grant >> > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Wed Apr 25 18:28:12 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:28:12 -0400 Subject: Floppy drive enclosures Message-ID: All: Does anyone have a consistent source for dual 5.25? half-height external floppy drive enclosures? I?m looking for an external case for my 68k SBC. Thanks in advance for any pointers. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 18:31:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <462FC568.1040309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <462FC568.1040309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070425163024.V72537@shell.lmi.net> > > In fact, if you were to start filling in the table with a > > dictionary/namelist approach, many of the "passwords" will actually match! > > Just how common ARE "sex", "love", and "god"? > > The remainder of the table can be completed using the nine billion names > > of god. On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, woodelf wrote: > Well not quite... The universe ended at the end of that story. > Rather quite hard to get the names re-printed again. just rerun the code won't need or want printing (and binding), just generated opn the fly, or stored in a file. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 25 18:34:50 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:34:50 +0100 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <002401c78792$54ea3a80$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: > For that matter, was enough publicly known about the Enigma at the > time > to do that then? Didn't someone find out (_after_ the war) that Enigma (or an early variant) had been patented? Bletchley and Ultra wouldn't have been known about then, but Enigma wasn't such a secret was it? Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.0/775 - Release Date: 24/04/2007 17:43 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 18:38:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070425163423.L72537@shell.lmi.net> > > That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Eric J Korpela wrote: > No, quite the opposite. The hashcode algorithm should be as public as > possible so any weakness can be found. What keeps a hashcode secure is > the amount of time it takes to find collisions. I REALLY should have put that in quotes or appended a smiley. Security through obscurity can only work for a very short time. > I have a string that has an MD5 hash of > d373a246bddeed37feec0c1c7c7b92ca. certainly each bit doubles the strength. I thought that we were talking about relatively trivial ones of 16 bits, etc. > Now try to find the one that also has an sha1 hash of > d79b75daa96671379b52210e1e3bf341c061f1cf Would probably have to do significant expansion of Gilmore's "Deep Crack". From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Apr 25 04:00:27 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:00:27 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-200 and DECserver terminal server. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022E97@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi A while back I aquired a VAX4000-200 (made circa 1990) via the DEC 'Old boy' network. Some list members were kind enough to help me get the system password reset. It booted, ran and the icing on the cake was it was loaded with VMS 6.2 and TCPWARE. That made it compatible with current networks. A BNC cable and cheap hub got me to 10baseT and with it a connection to my office network. Recently I was given a pile of terminals and printers. I managed to salvage two VT420's one HP700 and two LA75 Printers. That brought my system up to three VT420's and an LA75 + Spares. As some of you will know I worked for DEC for 10 Years +. The system I'm building up represents my idea of the 'Golden Age' of DEC (1980-1990) I want to use all DEC kit therefore the HP 700 is surplus. What I need is a DECServer with four or more DECconnect or RS232 ports on it. Most of them are BNC 50Ohm thin ethernet or AUI in and DECconnect or 25Way D out. They look a bit like a hub with a BNC connector in a depression in the top. Rod Smallwood From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 25 04:27:06 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:27:06 +0100 Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: <462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> <462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1177493226.32101.5.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 04:15 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Golan Klinger wrote: > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > > >> I'm pretty sure this is the monitor that came bundled with the IBM PS/1 > >> series, but if anyone can get a lock on this before Wednesday night I'd > >> be most appreciative. > > > > That is precisely what that is. That monitor is somewhat unique in > > that in includes the power supply for the PS/1 and without it, the > > PS/1 is useless. As a result, the monitors tend to be more valuable > > than the computer they're intended to compliment. > > If memory serves, some UK x86 series was like this as well... Amstrad > maybe? Reminds me of the Coleco Adam, for without a functional > daisywheel printer, the entire system would not function (power was in > the printer). The Amstrad 1512/1640 had the PSU built into the monitor, which could also power the PPC512/640 "laptop". The connector was a 14-pin DIN, same as the external floppy connector on an ST. I used to work in a computer repair shop around the time these machines were current, and we used to get an Atari ST in every couple of weeks or so where the owner had "plugged it into his mate's Amstrad monitor and now the disk drive didn't work". Repair was usually a new floppy, new FDC and new sound chip. Why the sound chip? Well... no, someone else can tell it. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 25 07:33:36 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:33:36 +0100 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <462F4516.3020808@gmail.com> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> <462F4516.3020808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1177504416.8671.8.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 08:09 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Have you ever played with rust-covered scotch tape in a reel-to-reel > tape player? It works surprisingly well. Tim Hunkin did this in one episode of his series "The Secret Life of Machines". Gordon From william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg Wed Apr 25 10:09:29 2007 From: william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg (william zheng) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:09:29 +0800 (CST) Subject: Offers on Ebay Message-ID: <90901.38641.qm@web61119.mail.yahoo.com> I have put up a number of DEC gears on Ebay, anyone interested please visit: http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300105552355&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr3_PcY_BIN_IT&refitem=300105552248&itemcount=3&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget Thanks and rgds --------------------------------- Real people. Real questions. Real answers. Share what you know. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 25 14:52:51 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:52:51 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH200IALKHGFDC8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:24:17 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> You can copy the screen logic for TRS80 as that is a basic 64x16 as well. >> Good thing to keep in mind. > >Well if anybody is doing VDM-1's the big problem is that you can't find >the Character ROM any more. I like the idea of TTL display like VDM-1 >but since this is not the late 70's a 80x24 screen is reasonable >and the data out is a simple VGA format, since the monitors are easy to >come by. You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 25 15:00:59 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:00:59 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH2005WOKUZEL1Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:40:08 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/25/07, woodelf wrote: >> >> You can copy the screen logic for TRS80 as that is a basic 64x16 as well. >> > Good thing to keep in mind. >> >> Well if anybody is doing VDM-1's the big problem is that you can't find >> the Character ROM any more. I like the idea of TTL display like VDM-1 >> but since this is not the late 70's a 80x24 screen is reasonable >> and the data out is a simple VGA format, since the monitors are easy to >> come by. > >As in the old Chargen ROMs like on this board? > >http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/d/h/tvt.jpg > >(I have one that I bought new and has yet to be attached to a KIM-1). > >With as fast as CMOS ROMs are today, why not use a 27C64 and burn your >own charset to it? It's not tough to do, but is there a technical >reason it wouldn't work? It works very well and it's easy to find a pattern like 2513 (5x7) or a 6674 (7x9) and burn an Eprom. Compared to the parts of that day even 2716 is both big enough and plenty fast. I like to use 27C64s as I have a bunch of pulls and it's no big deal building up a pattern as a copy or custom. FYI: to do it by hand all one needs is a sheet or a few of grid paper and a #2 graphite thingie. The order you enter the data is row for the low address lines (usualy 4 address lines) and the high address lines are the ascii value (0-127) that corosponds with the char. Allison From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Apr 25 15:19:36 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:19:36 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 74 Message-ID: <042520072019.22922.462FB7D80005037C0000598A22007613940B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels of files were found. For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit http://ses.symantec.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 25 16:27:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:27:21 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH20057GOUZEO1Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:23:36 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> With as fast as CMOS ROMs are today, why not use a 27C64 and burn your >> own charset to it? It's not tough to do, but is there a technical >> reason it wouldn't work? > >That works but to find the PROM data you have to look at some very old >memory data books. I have yet to find any nice 8x11? fonts that fit >in a 9x12 character block could be copied. > >> -ethan Motorola, Signetics or SMC databooks from the 80s. Or do what I did back in the hazeltine days, graph paper and a book of fonts. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 19:00:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, der Mouse wrote: > By definition, if you can do better than brute force, you need a better > hash algorithm. Surprisingly, I've had students who had been taught that ALL one-way functions are completely and totally uncrackable. > > It will most likely be a nonsense string of characters, rather than > > the name of the user's canary, but it will work. > > Not necessarily; for example, if it contains NL or NUL characters, it > will not work as a Unix password, even if it does produce the correct > hash when shoved through the algorithm. Your brute force algorithm should be limited to keyboardable characters that are accepted by that OS. > Security through obscurity? Doesn't work. Certainly not in a case > like this, where implementations of the algorithm are, perforce, > widespread. certainly not for long! I should have punctuated that in a manner that would imply sarcasm. > > and access to the hashcodes for accounts shuld be limited. > That helps, a little, but it's a belt-and-suspenders measure. In terms of entry, it makes no difference. But it is helpful if there is alternate access to the drive (booting with another OS or reading sectors elsewhere), and it helps to avoid unauthorized rights amplification. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 25 19:01:04 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy drive enclosures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > Does anyone have a consistent source for dual 5.25? half-height external > floppy drive enclosures? I?m looking for an external case for my 68k SBC. > > Thanks in advance for any pointers. Consider an old SCSI chassis. Ebay has them all the time. You might also find them at hamfests. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 19:04:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704251315k57f71b5dnbc74f3eca772eda5@mail.gmail.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <4affc5e0704251315k57f71b5dnbc74f3eca772eda5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070425170124.V72537@shell.lmi.net> > > That is why the hashcode algorithm being used should be kept secret, and > > access to the hashcodes for accounts shuld be limited. On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Uh-oh. I think you forgot to add a smiley there... or quotes, to indicate sarcasm > (If you didn't: this is a major security no-no! Keeping the > encryption algorithm secret is NEVER a good idea - didn't work for the > germans, never worked for anybody. There are many many books on the > topic that will explain better than I can in this list about why this > is the case.) It's only good as a short term measure. The Navajo code-talkers weren't cracked, but given sufficient additional time, the Japanese would have been able. And a single POW could have compromised it totally. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 25 18:46:16 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:46:16 -0500 Subject: Fw: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer collectorin same Message-ID: <00e801c78796$747c8430$12406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer collectorin same > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay West" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:27 AM > Subject: Re: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer > collectorin same > > >> Sellam wrote.... >>> See below. Please reply to Jamie direckly. >> >> This is the same one that contacted me two days ago and that I posted to >> the list yesterday. Looks like the same reporter contacted Sellam the day >> after me. I wasn't going to post her phone number to the list but... The >> contact info is all the same, so to those who responded to my post >> already - contact her directly. >> >> Jay West >> > Anyone have the first post I missed it. Thanks JK From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 19:10:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070425170848.B72537@shell.lmi.net> > > How many people here remember any of the "master" passwords of TRS-DOS? On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Mike Loewen wrote: > http://www.tim-mann.org/trs80faq.html#[11] thank you! Oddly enough, I don't see any mention of the backdoor password's use in the copyright easter egg. (Changed from "RANDY COOK" to "TANDY CORP" when RS found out about it.) From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Apr 25 19:13:16 2007 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:13:16 -0700 Subject: Anyone want a free (plus shipping) Sun Ultra 10? Message-ID: <462FEE9C.1040401@snowmoose.com> I am getting a new SPARC box for work. My manager says that the old Ultra 10 is not worth shipping back. Anyone want it for the cost of shipping? alan From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 25 20:00:34 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:00:34 -0500 Subject: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer collectorin same References: <00b901c78735$237057d0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <01a601c7879e$517b5c10$12406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:27 AM Subject: Re: Reporter in south Florida wants to talk to computer collectorin same > Sellam wrote.... >> See below. Please reply to Jamie direckly. > > This is the same one that contacted me two days ago and that I posted to > the list yesterday. Looks like the same reporter contacted Sellam the day > after me. I wasn't going to post her phone number to the list but... The > contact info is all the same, so to those who responded to my post > already - contact her directly. > > Jay West > Can someone share a little more details as I missed the message from both Jay and Sellam showing all the details and contact info. Thanks JK From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 20:30:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:30:57 -0400 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <1177504416.8671.8.camel@gjcp-desktop> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> <462F4516.3020808@gmail.com> <1177504416.8671.8.camel@gjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <463000D1.3040402@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 08:09 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Have you ever played with rust-covered scotch tape in a reel-to-reel >> tape player? It works surprisingly well. > > Tim Hunkin did this in one episode of his series "The Secret Life of > Machines". Really. I might have to see if I can dig that up. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 25 20:35:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:35:12 +0100 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? References: <0JH00068P3OHLE53@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <011501c787a5$27b315b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > It's rarely implemented and its not a "line" it was part of >the command set.... It's been probably 12 years since I looked at the IDE spec (or the pinout of an IDE port for that matter) but I was sure I remembered seeing a signal on the connector which, when asserted, forced the drive to work in "8-bit" mode? No? Wonder what I'm confusing it with then...? > I have a few XT IDE and of the 4 only one drive (20mb) does 8bit >the rest depend on the ISA bus card to do translation (8-16). WD did a (shortlived ISTR) line of 8-bit IDE drives, I had one - along with the associated ISA bus card. I forget the model number, but they were differentiated from the otherwise identical "16-bit" versions by having an "XT" suffix on the model number. And they were bl**dy unreliable too! :-( These came out shortly after WD acquired(?) Tandon; they were basically 3.5" Tandon RLL drives with a WD IDE controller in place of the Tandon electronics, IYSWIM? >From what you and Chuck have said, do I assume that either a) this "8-bit" mode was never very widespread and/or b) this mode was dropped from the specification somewhere along the line (E-IDE perhaps)? I must admit I've not kept up with developments in IDE, I switched to SCSI in 1991 and never bought another IDE drive until last year.... >> At least one of the IDE interfaces available for 8-bit Atari machines >>uses the drive in this mode. > > What drive? YOu can of course use CF that has 8bit mode or just ignore >the high 8bits (loose half the space) for a simpler interface. I didn't look into it deeply enough to find out what drive they recommend, I was just browsing through some postings in one of the Atari newsgroups and saw mention of it. >From the little I read, I understand that most of the available interfaces do exactly what you suggest and "waste" half of the available space. I got the impression that one of these interfaces could run the drive in 8-bit mode, though from what you say it probably has to be a very specific (old) drive....or maybe the guy was referring to using a CF card, quite a few people seem to be using them in this manner? I'll go do some more digging, I'm intrigued now.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 25 19:40:03 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:40:03 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: Message-ID: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... I have one of these too, though without the touchscreen or any expansion cards (it's even missing the rear plastic cover). Seems like an interesting machine, one of these days I must get it set up; I've only had it 9 years, LOL! How difficult are HP/IB hard drives to come by for them (I've got the dual floppy drive unit)? Always hankered after an original 150 though, it's a really cool shape! :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Apr 25 21:14:41 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:14:41 +0100 Subject: What monitor is this? References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org><462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <01c801c787a8$a6a2a180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Repair was usually a new floppy, new FDC and new sound chip. Why >the sound chip? Well... no, someone else can tell it. I dimly recall that Atari used one or two signals from the I/O port on the sound chip as part of the disc interface - drive/side select? TTFN - Pete. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 25 21:46:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:46:51 -0500 Subject: ebay user dagwyn Message-ID: <000301c787ad$256ed160$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Isn't ebay user "dagwyn" on the list? If so, please email me! Jay West From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 25 21:50:02 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:50:02 -0700 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > > >Seeking recommendations for a good MSDOS/FreeDOS-compatible binary file >viewer (hex / ASCII modes) to stick on my Imagedisk machine... > >Technically I don't actually need any editing facilities - just the viewer >side would do. > >I think PCTools came with a reasonable one at one point, but there's >probably something better out there that's downloadable... > Hi If you can find a copy of xtree. It not only has a great file and dirctory handler, one can view and edit files, displayed in HEX. Many thimes I've used it to edit image files or just look at files. It shows ascii on the side while viewing as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 25 23:22:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:22:11 -0600 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH200IALKHGFDC8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH200IALKHGFDC8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <463028F3.2050008@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. > It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? > Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the > part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and > 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. Well if I still had the manual let alone the the VDM ... :( From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Apr 25 22:47:01 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:47:01 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> Tis a shame, I moved from Fort Lauderdale about two years ago. AFAIK, there are no other "serious" collectors left in that area. There were a couple of other list members in the Miami area (their names escape me) but, I don't believe they are actively collecting. You know... It's really surprising that the Boca Raton area, the birth place of the PC, has so few collectors. c-ya, SteveRob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:39 PM Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? > a media organization in south florida (palm beach, broward, miami-dade > counties, cities such as West palm beach, delray, boca, fort lauderdale, > hollywood, miami, etc.) is looking for people who collect > vintage/classic/old computers regarding an article on that topic they are > working on. > > If anyone is interested in this, please contact me off-list as soon as > possible for details. > > Best regards, > > Jay West > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 22:49:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:49:07 -0700 Subject: Floppy drive enclosures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462FBEC3.769.16317FAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 19:28, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a consistent source for dual 5.25? half-height external > floppy drive enclosures? I?m looking for an external case for my 68k SBC. I've still got a bunch of new PS/2 Diskette Adapter/A enclosures (complete with SMPSUs; really nice units). How many do you need? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 22:54:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:54:21 -0700 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH2005WOKUZEL1Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH2005WOKUZEL1Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <462FBFFD.19602.16364961@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 16:00, Allison wrote: > FYI: to do it by hand all one needs is a sheet or a few of grid paper > and a #2 graphite thingie. The order you enter the data is row for > the low address lines (usualy 4 address lines) and the high address > lines are the ascii value (0-127) that corosponds with the char. If you have access to the driver disks for the Herc Graphics Plus, there are some nice fonts in various aspect ratios there--essentially ROM images. If you've got an old EGA card that supports 43 line mode, there's another nice small font. If you want 7x9 EBCDIC, I've got ROMs for that. We were using 2716's as character generator ROMS for 80x25 displays back in 1977 and they were plenty fast even then. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Apr 26 00:18:23 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:18:23 +0100 Subject: Two Apollo DN-3xxx's available for pickup [UK only] Message-ID: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> OK, I've got a pair of Apollo DN-35xx machines available to anyone who wants them for the price of coming and taking them away. One is a "DN-3550" and the other is, I *THINK* (it's a bit buried under rather a lot of other stuff right now) a "DN-3000". Both come with monitor and keyboard but little else. There's a few manuals with the 3000 and some manuals and tapes with the 3550. Both systems need some TLC to get them functioning. The 3550 worked until it was moved, obviously something has come loose inside, but I haven't had time to sort it out since it was passed on to me (I probably even haven't had the top off it). The 3000 arrived with no memory, again, although I managed to get some RAM cards for it, I haven't had time to fit them or do any work other work on the machine. Located in Birmingham. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 00:26:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:26:51 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <462F8134.8000905@bitsavers.org> References: <462F8134.8000905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <462FD5AB.27048.168AF8CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 9:26, Al Kossow wrote: > There was a posting in the HP tape thread about using a lamp to heat > the tensioning belt here within the past six months. Can't find it > right now, though. The Scotch DC300XLs have a peculiar situation where the oxide attaches itself to the belt. Not only does this remove oxide from the tape, but it pretty much destroys the effectiveness of the tensioning belt (creates a slick spot)--and nothing (not Freon TF, isopropanol, water) will remove it. I've written Imation to see if they can supply replacement belts for the DC-300s. Apparently, the carts are still made, but perhaps in DC- 6250 format--good enough. Regardless, it's pretty ugly. I've had substantially better luck with much older 9-track 1/2" tapes and 8" floppies. I wonder how long DLT IV carts are good for... Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 00:28:56 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:28:56 -0700 Subject: Got ten WY-30 Wyse terminals to fix at tv shop. In-Reply-To: <20070424233335.RWOB1646.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20070424233335.RWOB1646.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: > WY-30, part no: 900023-01 > > Intial three I checked, are non-responding and no screen. Opened up > one and found that power supply is working and correctly regulating > 5V and other supplies for the CRT (heater glowing direct power from > PSU) but the deflection section not sweeping. Checked digital > section and found the 68B00 (6800) is non-functioning, not even a > reset twitter on any of signals at instant of power on. Tried > replugging the ICs, xtal is oscillating thru a IC with many outputs. > > Any suggestions? > The 30s were known for failed Flyback Transformers. I seem to remember you can find generic replacements. Not a great terminal with lots of failures. If you can get one with a good tube and transformer make that your test bed. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ying6926 at ureach.com Thu Apr 26 00:39:06 2007 From: ying6926 at ureach.com (Henry Ji) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:39:06 -0700 Subject: IBM 540MB old hard drive References: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <007201c787c5$35513510$9480a8c0@catherine> I have an immediate need for one old IBM hard drive. I hope I could pick up this Thursday in portland area. Model: DBOA-2540 E33252 S P/N: 85G3599. (1050 Cylinders, 16 heads) Any lead would be appreciated. Henry From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Apr 26 01:01:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:01:28 +0100 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? References: Message-ID: <019101c787c8$54da4c70$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > If you can find a copy of xtree. It not only has a great file >and dirctory handler, one can view and edit files, displayed in >HEX.... Yeah, I used XTree for *many* years under DOS. Can't recommend it highly enough, though I personally prefer the earlier versions. Used it in preference to M$ Windows until I finally gave in and got Win95 around 1997. In fact, to this day, I use "Windows Explorer" to manage my data in much the same way I used XTree....it's the first program I fire up.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Apr 26 01:10:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:10:28 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) References: Message-ID: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Think I'll just get a Z80 Second Processor for my Beeb >>instead (far less hassle). > > I didn't think those were _that_ common... Ooer, don't say that....there used to be *lots* of them at radio rallies, but I haven't been to one for a couple of years (planning on doing Elvaston Castle this year though). I suppose I could always make one, assuming the necessary ROM images are available somewhere? I don't recall there being any custom logic in the 6502 Second Processor and my memory of the Torch Z80 2nd processor is waaay to hazy. Which brings me onto a second point. I actually have at least one BBC "Master" too, I have a vague recollection that these have a connector for an internal, as well as an external, second processor? Do you know of any websites where I could get more info? TTFN - Pete. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 25 20:12:45 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:12:45 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH200EMTZAJU7AE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:49:49 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 25 Apr 2007 at 13:24, woodelf wrote: > >> Well if anybody is doing VDM-1's the big problem is that you can't find >> the Character ROM any more. I like the idea of TTL display like VDM-1 >> but since this is not the late 70's a 80x24 screen is reasonable >> and the data out is a simple VGA format, since the monitors are easy to >> come by. > >At the expense of getting booed off the topic, if you need simple >80x24 and are using something like an 8085, the 8275/8276 CRT >controller with an 8257 DMA controller (in auto-initialize mode) >doesn't take a lot of extra glue. The gotcha is that "special >effects" like bolding and underlining take up space on the display >(Doesn't the Wyse 50 do that?). There is a "transparent" mode, but >management of the screen buffer becomes a real headache. I've never >tried to interface an 8257 to a Z80, so I don't know if the timing >works there. Perfectly reasonable, though at first it was a simple system. The Z80 and 8257 (or 8237) coexist fairly well. There are some signal differences for the glue TTL but it works. Back in the day it was also popular to do that becase 8257 was cheaper and faster then Z80 DMA and didn't have to be clocked synchronous like the Z80 DMA. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 26 01:15:53 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:15:53 -0400 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? References: <019101c787c8$54da4c70$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <017701c787ca$584d6840$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ensor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 2:01 AM Subject: Re: Good DOS binary file viewer? I still use Xtree 3 for DOS machines, looking for a boxed 4.0 for Windows 3.1 too. Norton had some kind of app like that as well. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 26 01:23:47 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy drive enclosures In-Reply-To: <462FBEC3.769.16317FAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <462FBEC3.769.16317FAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Apr 2007 at 19:28, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > Does anyone have a consistent source for dual 5.25? half-height external > > floppy drive enclosures? I?m looking for an external case for my 68k SBC. > > I've still got a bunch of new PS/2 Diskette Adapter/A enclosures > (complete with SMPSUs; really nice units). How many do you need? Got pics? I might be interested in a few. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 26 01:29:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:29:54 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? In-Reply-To: <006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Steve Robertson wrote: > Tis a shame, I moved from Fort Lauderdale about two years ago. > AFAIK, there > are no other "serious" collectors left in that area. There were a > couple of > other list members in the Miami area (their names escape me) but, I > don't > believe they are actively collecting. Unfortunately I'm on the Gulf coast of Florida, but I may drop her a line anyway. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Apr 26 01:54:18 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:54:18 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) In-Reply-To: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70704252354o57958215wc3f152d624beed7c@mail.gmail.com> On 26/04/07, Ensor wrote: > [on Z80 add-on processors] > > I suppose I could always make one, assuming the necessary ROM images are > available somewhere? I don't recall there being any custom logic in the 6502 > Second Processor and my memory of the Torch Z80 2nd processor is waaay to > hazy. Acorn used a custom "ULA" chip to handle communications between the second processor, of whatever flavour, and the host BBC computer. This provided a handfull of FIFOs and signal lines in both directions. Torch used a pair of PIO chips connected back-to-back to provide simular but incompatible functionality; only their ROM software could understand it. The Acorn one has definiatly been emulated, in Sprow's AEM7TDMI co-processor for example: > > > Which brings me onto a second point. I actually have at least one BBC > "Master" too, I have a vague recollection that these have a connector for an > internal, as well as an external, second processor? They do. You can connect up to both, and *CONFIGURE the system to use which ever one you want (or neither, but not both.) > > Do you know of any websites where I could get more info? > Sprow's page above has a link to Acorn's Tube application notes - that should get you started on how the tube actually /worked/ .. Whilst not wishing to remove an 8-bit thread from cc, you are probably best asking for technical info over on the bbc micro mailing list - gioto for subscription machine. Rob From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 02:04:01 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:04:01 -0700 Subject: IBM 540MB old hard drive In-Reply-To: <007201c787c5$35513510$9480a8c0@catherine> References: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <007201c787c5$35513510$9480a8c0@catherine> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, Henry Ji wrote: > > I have an immediate need for one old IBM hard drive. I hope I could pick up > this Thursday in portland area. > Model: DBOA-2540 E33252 S > P/N: 85G3599. (1050 Cylinders, 16 heads) > > Any lead would be appreciated. > Henry In Portland Oregon I would try the Free Geeks Thrift Store on 10th St east side 2 blocks south of Hawthorn. I haven't seen many 2 1/4 inch IDE hard drives there though. Ask at the desk, as they are kept on a shelf behind the counter, hours are 10 AM till 7 PM although it is best not to get there at closing (my bad habit) In Eugene Oregon I would look at NextStep Recycling thrift store. They often have 2 inch hard drives but I haven't looked at them. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 26 02:08:06 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:08:06 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-200 and DECserver terminal server. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022E97@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: Hi Rod, > is a DECServer with four or more DECconnect or RS232 ports on it. > Most of them are BNC 50Ohm thin ethernet or AUI in and DECconnect or > 25Way D out. They look a bit like a hub with a BNC connector in a > depression in the top. You're talking about a DECserver 90 L/L+/M/M+ which is very mid-to-late 1990s, to keep things in with the era you're looking at you'll need a DECserver 200 or 300. Pity you don't need a DEMSB aka the Microserver since I've got 3 spares of those..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 26 02:13:28 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:13:28 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) In-Reply-To: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 26/4/07 07:10, "Ensor" wrote: > Which brings me onto a second point. I actually have at least one BBC > "Master" too, I have a vague recollection that these have a connector for an > internal, as well as an external, second processor? The Master series have the usual Tube connector for external processors as well as internals. The Master Turbo (aka the Acorn AIV used for the Domesday System) has a second internal 65C02 and the Master 512 could take 2 different co-pros. All of my stuff is out of reach till the weekend but my Acorn page has info as well as being in need of an update :) http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/ -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spc at conman.org Thu Apr 26 04:35:06 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 05:35:06 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? In-Reply-To: <006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: <20070426093506.GA32476@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Steve Robertson once stated: > Tis a shame, I moved from Fort Lauderdale about two years ago. AFAIK, there > are no other "serious" collectors left in that area. There were a couple of > other list members in the Miami area (their names escape me) but, I don't > believe they are actively collecting. I did respond to Jay when he posted, but I have yet to actually contact the journalist directly. I don't really collect computers anymore (no space, and more importantly, Lake Worthless Utilities extracts a premium to resell Florida Periodic Light) and my interests are really more into software (operating systems and computer languages) and history. > You know... It's really surprising that the Boca Raton area, the birth place > of the PC, has so few collectors. When IBM pulled out of Blue Lake [1], so did a lot of people, with the PC division being split between Texas and North Carolina. And don't forget, there's only a few days per year when we can use our old computers as space heaters---most of the time, we have to get rid of the heat ... -spc (Really like that molecule building ... ) [1] http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&z=18&ll=26.390889,-80.106699&spn=0.003244,0.005579&t=h From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 05:03:40 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:03:40 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-200 and DECserver terminal server. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022E97@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022E97@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: I have some stuff stored in the protacabin outside will check later today or tommorow, in the east midlands free for collection Dave Caroline On 4/25/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > A while back I aquired a VAX4000-200 (made circa 1990) via the DEC > 'Old boy' network. > Some list members were kind enough to help me get the system password > reset. > It booted, ran and the icing on the cake was it was loaded with VMS 6.2 > and TCPWARE. > That made it compatible with current networks. > A BNC cable and cheap hub got me to 10baseT and with it a connection to > my office network. > > Recently I was given a pile of terminals and printers. I managed to > salvage two VT420's one HP700 and two LA75 Printers. > That brought my system up to three VT420's and an LA75 + Spares. > > As some of you will know I worked for DEC for 10 Years +. The system > I'm building up represents my idea of the 'Golden Age' of DEC > (1980-1990) > > I want to use all DEC kit therefore the HP 700 is surplus. What I need > is a DECServer with four or more DECconnect or RS232 ports on it. > Most of them are BNC 50Ohm thin ethernet or AUI in and DECconnect or > 25Way D out. They look a bit like a hub with a BNC connector in a > depression in the top. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 26 03:45:52 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:45:52 +0100 Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: <01c801c787a8$a6a2a180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <462ECDBD.1050104@oldskool.org> <462F1C49.1000209@oldskool.org> <01c801c787a8$a6a2a180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <1177577152.11163.1.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 03:14 +0100, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Repair was usually a new floppy, new FDC and new sound chip. Why > >the sound chip? Well... no, someone else can tell it. > > I dimly recall that Atari used one or two signals from the I/O port on the > sound chip as part of the disc interface - drive/side select? Coorrrrrrect! See if you can guess how long it took to figure that one out without the service manual... Incidentally, a friend of mine ran a BBS for a couple of years on a dual-floppy PPC640. I think we ran it off a PC1640 monitor at least once... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 26 04:38:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:38:28 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a free (plus shipping) Sun Ultra 10? In-Reply-To: <462FEE9C.1040401@snowmoose.com> References: <462FEE9C.1040401@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <1177580308.11163.5.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 17:13 -0700, Alan Perry wrote: > I am getting a new SPARC box for work. My manager says that the old > Ultra 10 is not worth shipping back. Anyone want it for the cost of > shipping? Shipping from where? Gordon From pechter at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 05:46:07 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:46:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone want a free (plus shipping) Sun Ultra 10? In-Reply-To: <462FEE9C.1040401@snowmoose.com> References: <462FEE9C.1040401@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, Alan Perry wrote: > > > I am getting a new SPARC box for work. My manager says that the old > Ultra 10 is not worth shipping back. Anyone want it for the cost of > shipping? > > alan > > Sounds very interesting... Shipping from where. -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 26 06:28:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:28:46 -0500 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <011501c787a5$27b315b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <0JH00068P3OHLE53@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <011501c787a5$27b315b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46308CEE.3030701@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > > I have a few XT IDE and of the 4 only one drive (20mb) does 8bit > >the rest depend on the ISA bus card to do translation (8-16). > > WD did a (shortlived ISTR) line of 8-bit IDE drives, I had one - along > with the associated ISA bus card. I forget the model number, but they > were differentiated from the otherwise identical "16-bit" versions by > having an "XT" suffix on the model number. Hmm, I think that's what's in my Amiga A590 enclosure. It's certainly not SCSI, but I'm sure the connector's not proper IDE either. > And they were bl**dy unreliable too! :-( That worries me about the Amiga one. It does have a SCSI connector within the A590 I think, but I'm not sure how picky it is about what drives it'll work with. > I must admit I've not kept up with developments in IDE, I switched to > SCSI in 1991 and never bought another IDE drive until last year.... I did that too... I've sort of given up on SCSI now for drives though, simply because the prices for tested/used IDE drives [1] are so much cheaper than SCSI, and for storage of things like scans and images I don't *need* the performance. It'd be different if it were for systems that were on the 'net or accessed by several people, of course, but for "home personal fileserver" IDE seems to be working out (even if it does make me feel all unclean ;) [1] I don't buy new stuff, not for PCs - not when the price drops so much for "previous generation". Unfortunately SCSI drives of 36GB and up don't seem to be readily available. cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 06:45:36 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:45:36 +0100 Subject: Two Apollo DN-3xxx's available for pickup [UK only] In-Reply-To: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: Hi Pete, On 26/04/07, Ensor wrote: [Apollo DN3k computers] These sound like interesting machines. first question - Has anyone else expressed an interest in these two computers? Second question. Do either of the two machines have a tape drive? Third and last, what time scales are you looking at for losing these two computers? Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 26 05:47:37 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:47:37 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH300EIFPWHU8SE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:22:11 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >> You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. >> It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? >> Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the >> part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and >> 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. > >Well if I still had the manual let alone the the VDM ... :( > Manual is on line I think at both Dave and bitsavers. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 07:31:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:31:30 -0400 Subject: XT IDE (was Re: Junkbox CP/M system?) Message-ID: On 4/26/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, I think that's what's in my Amiga A590 enclosure. It's certainly not > SCSI, but I'm sure the connector's not proper IDE either. The A590 (and A2091 ZorroII card) support SCSI on the 50-pin connector, and XT IDE (only) on the 40 pin connector. The 40-pin connector is unpopulated on the A2091, but it's the same controller chip on both, and has the same features in both. I've used it with a WD 40 MB XT IDE drive from a Commodore x86 PC. It works. > > And they were bl**dy unreliable too! :-( > > That worries me about the Amiga one. It does have a SCSI connector within the > A590 I think, but I'm not sure how picky it is about what drives it'll work with. Not very picky. You'll find that with the Kickstart version in your machine, you are limited to 4GB or less for drive size, but other than that, as long the drive answers the packet for drive capacity (ACB4000 MFM bridge wouldn't answer, for example, but every embedded SCSI drive I know of will), the AmigaDOS drivers will be happy. > [1] I don't buy new stuff, not for PCs - not when the price drops so much for > "previous generation". Unfortunately SCSI drives of 36GB and up don't seem to > be readily available. I got a few in 2003, cheap, but I'm not seeing server drives as abundantly as I used to. The ones behind me are loaded with "SAS" (Serial-attached-SCSI, AFAIK), so perhaps the days of SCA-connector UltraWIDE SCSI drives are waning at last. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 26 08:44:38 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:44:38 -0500 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> <20070426093506.GA32476@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <008801c78809$0b9e85d0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote... >> Tis a shame, I moved from Fort Lauderdale about two years ago. AFAIK, >> there >> are no other "serious" collectors left in that area. What ever happened to Joe Rigdon? I haven't heard anything from him in a while and I know he was somewhere in Florida... Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 26 08:45:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:45:50 -0400 Subject: XT IDE (was Re: Junkbox CP/M system?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2007, at 8:31 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> [1] I don't buy new stuff, not for PCs - not when the price drops >> so much for >> "previous generation". Unfortunately SCSI drives of 36GB and up >> don't seem to >> be readily available. > > I got a few in 2003, cheap, but I'm not seeing server drives as > abundantly as I used to. The ones behind me are loaded with "SAS" > (Serial-attached-SCSI, AFAIK), so perhaps the days of SCA-connector > UltraWIDE SCSI drives are waning at last. Nah...73GB and 141GB SCA SCSI drives are all over eBay pretty much all the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 26 08:50:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:50:44 -0500 Subject: XT IDE (was Re: Junkbox CP/M system?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4630AE34.60502@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> That worries me about the Amiga one. It does have a SCSI connector >> within the >> A590 I think, but I'm not sure how picky it is about what drives it'll >> work with. > > Not very picky. You'll find that with the Kickstart version in your > machine, you are limited to 4GB or less for drive size, but other than > that, as long the drive answers the packet for drive capacity (ACB4000 > MFM bridge wouldn't answer, for example, but every embedded SCSI drive > I know of will), the AmigaDOS drivers will be happy. Ok... so it doesn't need a SCSI drive that's happy with being low level formatted to something other than a 512 byte sector size, for instance? I don't think many drives - particularly newer ones - can handle that... >> Unfortunately SCSI drives of 36GB and up don't seem to >> be readily available. > > I got a few in 2003, cheap, but I'm not seeing server drives as > abundantly as I used to. The ones behind me are loaded with "SAS" > (Serial-attached-SCSI, AFAIK), so perhaps the days of SCA-connector > UltraWIDE SCSI drives are waning at last. I think many of them are still in service which is why they haven't turned up used - plus there's more paranoia these days about data security, so I wonder if more are going to the shredders without being recycled as working units. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 26 09:10:55 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:10:55 -0700 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <200704241801.l3OI1kOJ000936@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: >From: "Dave Dunfield" > > > > The problem with either of those is that the ROM remains in the memory > > > map and takes up valuable RAM space. > > > > Right. That much I get... so once CP/M is running, it's ordinary not > > to refer to the boot ROMs? There's typically not a requirement to > > keep some low-level BIOSy stuff in ROM? > >No, in most (but not all) CP/M systems, the CP/M BIOS is not dependant on >the boot ROM. > >Unlike a PC, where the ROM contains more-complicated-than-it-needs-to-be >general purpose code to control all kinds of hardware, a typical S-100 CP/M >boot rom contained just enough code to read one sector from a drive and >jump to it. This goes back to the days of wildly varying S-100 cards... >The guy who wrote the boot rom (the disk controller maker) only knew for >sure how to talk to one bit of hardware in your system (his disk >controller). > ---snip--- Hi As an example, my IMSAI has no ROM at all and I run CP/M. The disk controller uses DMA to the IMSAI's RAM. On reset, the controller will transfer the first sector into the 0000 address of the IMSAI. I have code on the first sector that loads the rest of what is needed for CP/M and it then jumps to that code. The controller was made by a company called Digital Systems and does have its own state engine run from ROMs in the controller. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 09:30:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:30:44 -0400 Subject: SCSI drives on Amigas (was Re: XT IDE (was Re: Junkbox CP/M system?)) Message-ID: On 4/26/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> It does have a SCSI connector within the A590 I think, but I'm > >> not sure how picky it is about what drives it'll work with. > > > > Not very picky. > > Ok... so it doesn't need a SCSI drive that's happy with being low level > formatted to something other than a 512 byte sector size, for instance? Nope. You do want 512 bytes per sector. Bog standard. I've attached everything from 20MB up to 4GB drives onto my Amigas from the A1000 up through my A4000, and the only time things were ever fiddly was with pre-capacity-reporting drives or non-SCSI controllers like the A2090. If you have something as modern as an A590 and any embedded SCSI drive, it should work as described in the A590 docs. There's probably a copy of the A590 prep disk running around. I think you might need that for Kickstart/AmigaDOS 1.3, but by 2.0, ISTR, the OS knew about the A590/A2091 from the get-go. If you happen to have a Kickstart 1.2 ROM in your A500, you won't be able to autoboot the hard disk, but you will be able to access it after booting with a boot floppy. > I think many of them are still in service which is why they haven't turned up > used - plus there's more paranoia these days about data security, so I wonder > if more are going to the shredders without being recycled as working units. Perhaps. They could also be left running until they die. We were losing an average of one Seagate 72GB UltraSCSI drive per month at the Pole. All of the 9GB drives through 146GB drives failed at a combined rate of less than one every two months, except for the 73GB drives. It wasn't just that we had more 73GB drives than any anything else - on a per-unit basis, the failure rate was dramatically higher in the same environment. They won't be of much use in your Amiga anyway. ;-) -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 26 09:40:26 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> By definition, if you can do better than brute force, you need a >> better hash algorithm. Actually, this was a slight overstatement. If you can do much better than brute force, then. For password hashing, slight biases don't really matter much - a work factor of 2^63 is about as good as a work factor of 2^64, and most biases won't skew things by as much as a whole bit. > Surprisingly, I've had students who had been taught that ALL one-way > functions are completely and totally uncrackable. I don't find that surprising - which fact I find somewhat depressing. The only hash function that reveals nothing of its source data is one that maps everything to the same value - and such a one fails second-preimage resistance rather catastrophically. :-) >>> It will most likely be a nonsense string of characters, rather than >>> the name of the user's canary, but it will work. >> Not necessarily; for example, if it contains NL or NUL characters, > Your brute force algorithm should be limited to keyboardable > characters that are accepted by that OS. Then there's no guarantee any but the actual password will work. (If the hash function is good, approximately 1/N of any simply-defined set of strings will work, where N is the number of postimages. I don't know whether the hash functions actually used for passwords are known to be good in this sense, though I suspect they actually are.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 10:08:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:08:00 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net> <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 4/26/07, der Mouse wrote: > The only hash function that reveals nothing of its source data is one > that maps everything to the same value - and such a one fails > second-preimage resistance rather catastrophically. :-) But just *look* at that compression ratio! -ethan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 10:10:38 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:10:38 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net> <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4affc5e0704260810i622a25daw274cfad42dc99cc1@mail.gmail.com> On 26/04/07, der Mouse wrote: > > Surprisingly, I've had students who had been taught that ALL one-way > > functions are completely and totally uncrackable. > > I don't find that surprising - which fact I find somewhat depressing. Actually, couldn't one argue that if the function is crackable, it is not one-way? if f(A) = C and we can find B s.t. f(B) = C then the function is NOT one-way for B. Thus, unless you have a reliable way of determining if A is NOT in a set comprising of all values that can be found by some hypothetical f^-1() you do not have a one-way function. (Brute force exhaustive search doesn't count, IMHO) Thus, all one-way functions are uncrackable. But there are fewer one-way functions than one would think... Joe. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Apr 26 10:15:38 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:15:38 -0400 Subject: XT IDE (was Re: Junkbox CP/M system?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426111148.012c1648@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >On 4/26/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>[1] I don't buy new stuff, not for PCs - not when the price drops so much for >>"previous generation". Unfortunately SCSI drives of 36GB and up don't seem to >>be readily available. Well, a) this might be "wrong side of the pond" for you, and b) I'm not sure what you consider "cheap" but this place only has 633 in stock and ready to sell: http://www.pacificgeek.com/product.asp?ID=39962&C=202&S=1005 Hitachi 36.9GB Ultra 320 SCSI 10000RPM HDD --- $56.99 each. IMHO, not a *horrible* price, and with some froogling (oops, I guess that's gone now) you might be able to find 'em cheaper... >I got a few in 2003, cheap, but I'm not seeing server drives as >abundantly as I used to. The ones behind me are loaded with "SAS" >(Serial-attached-SCSI, AFAIK), so perhaps the days of SCA-connector >UltraWIDE SCSI drives are waning at last. Doubtful... at least not just yet, IMHO. I'd think there's still a lot of installations with 68/80 pin SCSI hardware - but with supply-n-demand, I doubt new drives will get cheaper - we're prolly at the point where they're going to start getting more expensive than the SAS & whatnot. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 10:32:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:32:35 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net>, <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <463063A3.31711.18B58A04@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 10:40, der Mouse wrote: > > Surprisingly, I've had students who had been taught that ALL one-way > > functions are completely and totally uncrackable. > > I don't find that surprising - which fact I find somewhat depressing. Not that long ago, I was asked to defend a scheme of convolved checksums and hashes that I used to protect a rather long data file which would be used in legal actions. This was not a case of detecting errors; it was also a case of detecting attempts at intentional manipulation. It was amazing to hear the "experts" proclaim that if just discarded the more involved (and harder to manipulate) scheme with a single SHA or MD5 hash, the file would be virtually bullet proof from any attempts at manipulation and be much simpler to work with. My response was that while such hashes do a good job of enabling one to detect simple errors, we were dealing with a horse of different color. My data file had no length or content that could be known in advance. Simply adding an extra record or two to make the hash "come out right" would be all that was required. Convolved hashes, while not bulletproof, are considerably more difficult to manipulate, particularly if one doesn't know where to begin looking for them and what they are within the file. But it was surprising to witness the pronoucement by people who had set themselves up as "experts" made me very cynical about what it took to be an expert. I later witnessed this when I was called on to serve as editor on a technical book. The author was pretty much dumb as a stump--he made extensive use of others' contributions and thereby gained a reputation as an expert himself. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 26 10:39:25 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:39:25 -0700 Subject: PCB edge connector In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426111148.012c1648@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Hi Can you all check in your junk boxes. I'm looking for a junk PC board with 100 pins ( 50/side ) 0.125 spaced pins. I've checked a number of places and all I find are either PC bus proto boards or 44 pins 0.156. I expect to cut the edge off so it can be more pins. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 11:12:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:12:59 -0400 Subject: Finland Message-ID: <4630CF8B.9010904@gmail.com> Is there anyone on the list from Finland? I have a couple of questions. Please respond off-list. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 26 10:16:03 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:16:03 -0300 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation Message-ID: <01C787FC.C4CFA780@mse-d03> I've got a bunch of DC-600/615A & 300XLP tapes that, although I haven't tried to read them lately, look OK, i.e. they move freely and nothing seems to be sticking. Aside from the issue of archiving them, is it better to leave them until needed, or should I run them through a retension occasionally to prevent some of the problems mentioned recently? Any special conditions for storage? Opinions? Experience? mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 26 10:16:36 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:16:36 -0300 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <01C787FC.C5FDC740@mse-d03> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:25:44 -0400 From: Allison Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine >>> 8085 (Also makes for simple systems) >> >>Those are somewhat common if you hang around DEC equipment. >As I am. >Allison ------------ Oh no, Allison, you're not common at all ;-) Quite unique, in fact. m From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 11:21:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:21:05 -0700 Subject: Floppy drive enclosures In-Reply-To: References: , <462FBEC3.769.16317FAC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46306F01.25308.18E1F246@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 23:23, David Griffith wrote: > Got pics? I might be interested in a few. They look like this one (not my photo, but if you've seen one, you've seen them all): http://john.ccac.rwth- aachen.de:8000/alf/ps2_80311/ps2_80311_4_full.jpeg Drive not included. Internally, there's a nice shielded SMPSU and a shield going over the drive itself. Internally, the cable's connected to a 34-position edge connector and the external conenctor's a DC-37 male. Power is the standard 4-pin large diskette/HD standard. AC power through a standard IEC connector. In original boxes with IBM pamphlet. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 26 11:24:35 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:24:35 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? In-Reply-To: <20070426093506.GA32476@brevard.conman.org> References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000> <20070426093506.GA32476@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200704261224.35205.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 26 April 2007 05:35, Sean Conner wrote: > I did respond to Jay when he posted, but I have yet to actually > contact the journalist directly. I don't really collect computers > anymore (no space, and more importantly, Lake Worthless Utilities > extracts a premium to resell Florida Periodic Light) and my interests > are really more into software (operating systems and computer > languages) and history. > > And don't forget, there's only a few days per year when we can use > our old computers as space heaters---most of the time, we have to get > rid of the heat ... Time To Move... :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 11:30:59 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:30:59 +0100 Subject: Two Apollo DN-3xxx's available for pickup [UK only] In-Reply-To: References: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: All, On 26/04/07, Simon Fryer wrote: [stuff] Sorry guys. This was meant to go to Pete only. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 11:45:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:45:08 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <01C787FC.C4CFA780@mse-d03> References: <01C787FC.C4CFA780@mse-d03> Message-ID: <463074A4.18957.18F7F4C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 12:16, M H Stein wrote: > Aside from the issue of archiving them, is it better to leave them > until needed, or should I run them through a retension occasionally > to prevent some of the problems mentioned recently? Any special > conditions for storage? Well, obviously, a lot depends on the tape formulation itself. The job immediately before this one was a DC-6250 written in 1992. Went without a hitch. The problem tapes are "Scotch" and were written in 1986-87 and are nothing but problems. To me "archiving" is the key. Copy the things off to another storage medium (say, CD-R) and regenerate copies every few years. It's just plain foolish to leave things to the mercy of Father Time. Cheers, Chuck From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Apr 26 13:10:30 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:10:30 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) In-Reply-To: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 26/4/07 07:10, "Ensor" wrote: [SNIP] > Which brings me onto a second point. I actually have at least one BBC > "Master" too, I have a vague recollection that these have a connector for an > internal, as well as an external, second processor? > > Do you know of any websites where I could get more info? > > > TTFN - Pete. Torch certainly made an "internal" Z80 co-processor for the Master (I have one). Although the board sits internally to the case, it still connects via the Tube- the ribbon cable loops out through a gap in the case and connects in the normal fashion. -Austin. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 26 12:13:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:13:49 -0300 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation Message-ID: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> ---------------Original Messages: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:45:08 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation On 26 Apr 2007 at 12:16, M H Stein wrote: >> Aside from the issue of archiving them, is it better to leave them > until needed, or should I run them through a retension occasionally > to prevent some of the problems mentioned recently? Any special > conditions for storage? >Well, obviously, a lot depends on the tape formulation itself. The job immediately before this one was a DC-6250 written in 1992. Went without a hitch. The problem tapes are "Scotch" and were written in 1986-87 and are nothing but problems. >To me "archiving" is the key. Copy the things off to another storage medium (say, CD-R) and regenerate copies every few years. It's just plain foolish to leave things to the mercy of Father Time. Cheers, Chuck ---------------Reply: I'm still curious; assuming any useful data has been archived and I just want to reuse the tapes some day, what would maximize the chances of their still being useable? Is heating them a last-ditch recovery procedure or could it be considered preventive maintenance? I assume that the 2120s, Travans etc. are prone to some of the same problems? Next question: The DC600s & 615s are Cromemco Cromix+ and UNIX system and backup tapes; those I have hardware for and they're no great loss even if they have problems. However, the 300s are for an Arete/Arix system and I no longer have any hardware that could read them nor do I know of anyone with an Arix; also, there's the usual problem that they may have confidential client data on them along with the system files, so what do I do with them? I wouldn't mind reusing the tapes but hate to erase them. Format aside, can a drive meant for DC600s read the lower coercivity DC300s? mike From steerex at mindspring.com Thu Apr 26 13:28:02 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:28:02 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><006601c787b5$8ccb42f0$0701a8c0@win2000><20070426093506.GA32476@brevard.conman.org> <008801c78809$0b9e85d0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <002801c78830$a0694610$0701a8c0@win2000> Joe lives in the Orlando area. It's about 200 miles north of the newspaper reporter. I saw Joe just before Christmas and can report that he is doing well. I don't think he has lost interest in collecting, he's just taking a hiatus from the hobby (and this list) for a while. Sooner or later, he'll be back. I'll be stopping by his place when I go to Florida on the 4th of July. He knows ALL the good spots in central Florida for collecting. We always manage to dig up something. If anyone needs to contact Joe, I can pass along a message. See Ya, SteveRob > What ever happened to Joe Rigdon? I haven't heard anything from him in a > while and I know he was somewhere in Florida... > > Jay > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 26 13:49:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:49:19 -0400 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> References: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20070426184919.GA9365@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 02:13:49PM -0300, M H Stein wrote: > Format aside, can a drive meant for DC600s read the lower > coercivity DC300s? I've been reading DC300 and 600 tapes just fine in my SCSI Archive-branded 120MB QIC drive. I don't remember the model number off the top of my head, but I was talking about it on this list a couple of months ago. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 14:16:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:16:26 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> References: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4630981A.14756.19827AFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 14:13, M H Stein wrote: > I'm still curious; assuming any useful data has been archived > and I just want to reuse the tapes some day, what would > maximize the chances of their still being useable? Is heating > them a last-ditch recovery procedure or could it be considered > preventive maintenance? I assume that the 2120s, Travans etc. > are prone to some of the same problems? If the tapes are really old (ca 20+ years), I'd skip reusing them. Old tape, regardless of the brand, has a tendency to shed oxide to a greater extent than new tape. This means that you'll be busy cleaning the heads on your drive more frequently. The tension band will also have stretched with aging, making the probability of a tape snarl much greater. I've found that recovering old 2000/2120 tapes to be significantly more chancy than the bigger DC600 type. DC1000 minitapes are probably even worse. > The DC600s & 615s are Cromemco Cromix+ and UNIX system > and backup tapes; those I have hardware for and they're no great > loss even if they have problems. However, the 300s are for an > Arete/Arix system and I no longer have any hardware that could > read them nor do I know of anyone with an Arix; also, there's the > usual problem that they may have confidential client data on them > along with the system files, so what do I do with them? How you want to handle the client files is up to you, but you might try popping one of the carts into your current drive and using dd to see if there's anything readable there to copy. I try to do my recovery in a single pass--run dd and cross my fingers. > Format aside, can a drive meant for DC600s read the lower > coercivity DC300s? It depends on the drive and the tape. For most things, I use Tandberg and Caliper drives, but I've run across a few old tapes that nothing will read (from ADIC libraries). A look-see with some magnetic developer shows that they have about double the number of tracks on them. Best advice is "try it and see". Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 26 14:28:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:28:24 -0400 Subject: IBM 540MB old hard drive In-Reply-To: <007201c787c5$35513510$9480a8c0@catherine> References: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <007201c787c5$35513510$9480a8c0@catherine> Message-ID: <9307DDDB-1D77-4D4B-8256-348DFFE50833@neurotica.com> On Apr 26, 2007, at 1:39 AM, Henry Ji wrote: > I have an immediate need for one old IBM hard drive. I hope I could > pick up > this Thursday in portland area. > Model: DBOA-2540 E33252 S > P/N: 85G3599. (1050 Cylinders, 16 heads) > > Any lead would be appreciated. > Henry Hi Henry...I have two DHAA-2540 drives here, they are very close in geometry, 1047cyl/16 heads. I don't know if the other specs (height, etc) are compatible, and I am in Florida, but if it will solve your problem, I can FedEx one to you for the cost of shipping. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From kth at srv.net Thu Apr 26 14:36:51 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:36:51 -0600 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <01C787FC.C4CFA780@mse-d03> References: <01C787FC.C4CFA780@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4630FF53.40308@srv.net> M H Stein wrote: > I've got a bunch of DC-600/615A & 300XLP tapes that, although I > haven't tried to read them lately, look OK, i.e. they move freely > and nothing seems to be sticking. > > Aside from the issue of archiving them, is it better to leave them > until needed, or should I run them through a retension occasionally > to prevent some of the problems mentioned recently? Any special > conditions for storage? > > Opinions? Experience? > I'd advise backing them up onto something different, while you have working drives, and the knowledge of how to recover them. Wait too long, and you will find that: 1. The tapes go bad. 2. The tape drives go bad. Try to buy a new one? 3. You can't find the software needed to read them. 4. You can't find a machine capable of reading them. (speed, bus, etc) 5. ... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 26 14:35:02 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:35:02 -0500 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4630FEE6.60607@yahoo.co.uk> Austin Pass wrote: > Torch certainly made an "internal" Z80 co-processor for the Master (I have > one). They made a couple - the Communicator's just a Z80 and local RAM, whilst the Tosca's got a "high speed" serial port local to the board. There were also the two Torch Unix 68000 copro boards - the Neptune and Atlas - both of those had a local Z80 and could also run CP/N (although I can't remember if it required a ROM change on the BBC to do so) cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Thu Apr 26 14:44:18 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:44:18 -0600 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> References: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> Message-ID: <46310112.10102@srv.net> M H Stein wrote: > I'm still curious; assuming any useful data has been archived > and I just want to reuse the tapes some day, what would > maximize the chances of their still being useable? Is heating > them a last-ditch recovery procedure or could it be considered > preventive maintenance? I assume that the 2120s, Travans etc. > are prone to some of the same problems? > I'd say heating the tapes should NOT be done periodically. It should be considered a last-ditch attempt at data recovery. If you need to heat the tapes, you already know that the chemistry is breaking down. Heating them is only an attempt to reduce the effects, I doubt it will stop the process. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 14:49:15 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0704260810i622a25daw274cfad42dc99cc1@mail.gmail.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252010.QAA18404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425165426.J72537@shell.lmi.net> <200704261451.KAA04183@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4affc5e0704260810i622a25daw274cfad42dc99cc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070426123849.F18944@shell.lmi.net> > > > Surprisingly, I've had students who had been taught that ALL one-way > > > functions are completely and totally uncrackable. > > > > I don't find that surprising - which fact I find somewhat depressing. On Thu, 26 Apr 2007, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Actually, couldn't one argue that if the function is crackable, it is > not one-way? Good point. I should have said "uncrackable systems using one way functions". The function itself may be uncrackable, but the system using it is crackable. The issue is not whether the original password can be reproduced, but whether a working password can be generated. Since users screw up, multiple attempts must be permitted. Rather than a finite number of attempts followed by complete lockout, what I prefer is an increasing delay amount. Each unsuccessful attempt can double the length of time before another attempt is permitted. 2^^N seconds between attempts will render brute force attacks futile, while still permitting average users adequate opportunity to try a reasonable number of guesses. But, there's prob'ly some basic flaw in that idea, also. From wizard at voyager.net Thu Apr 26 15:08:32 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:08:32 -0400 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 11:26 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Apr 2007 at 13:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Seeking recommendations for a good MSDOS/FreeDOS-compatible binary file viewer > > (hex / ASCII modes) to stick on my Imagedisk machine... > > You can't beat Vern Buerg's Veneered and Generated LIST. After many > years, still my favorite. > > http://www.buerg.com/ That's got MY vote, FWIW. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Thu Apr 26 15:25:43 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:25:43 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <200704250151.l3P1pGeI004760@mail.itm-inst.com> <20070425115738.W58204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1177619144.21916.103.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 16:16 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > . . . I did find plenty of trivial passwords like > "abc" combined with small numeric suffixes and/or > prefixes, though - all found *very* quickly by Crack. > The ones that took the longest (2 out of 400 users) > were dictionary words with the common 1=i, 0=o sorts > of substitutions and no punctuation. They were > cracked during my normal run, but not in the first > 15 minutes. > > Anything with just "abc" and numbers fell in seconds > or minutes. We did not allow enough time for a > strict brute-force attack, so the half of the users > who did not use modified or unmodified words from a > dictionary fared well. I always loved the cat-and-mouse adventure of passwords... either on the protection or breaking side -- it makes little difference to me. One thing I have found that is a good compromise between being able to remember it easily and being secure is as follows. If this list had passwords, I might make one up as follows: It's a list for old computers. My oldest is an IMSAI. It's a list for OLD computers, so a related keyword would be, for me, "lawn," as in "you kids get off of my lawn." Two words, and then a number... I got my old computer in 1977. So far, I have IMSAI, lawn, and 1977. I would be likely to come up with those three words again, if I needed them. So, to secure them a bit, I take one character from each, in rotation. The password thus generated would be Il1Ma9Sw7An7I. Enjoy cracking THAT. I probably should not have mentioned it... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 26 15:37:04 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:37:04 -0400 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:32:35 PDT." <463063A3.31711.18B58A04@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200704262037.l3QKb4e4031129@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: ... >which would be used in legal actions. This was not a case of >detecting errors; it was also a case of detecting attempts at >intentional manipulation. > >It was amazing to hear the "experts" proclaim that if just discarded >the more involved (and harder to manipulate) scheme with a single SHA >or MD5 hash, the file would be virtually bullet proof from any >attempts at manipulation and be much simpler to work with. Perhaps they where thinkings of a "signed" document, where the MD5 is encrypted with a private key... but even if they were just talking about an MD5 hash, I think it would be non-trivial to just add data to make the hash right. I'm not sure you could do that with MD5, to be honest. hmmm... I'd claim an MD5 hash would pretty good, but should be protected also (via encryption). (but I am not a crypto expert; hah. i can barely get out the door in the morning) -brad From scheefj at netscape.net Thu Apr 26 15:48:28 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:48:28 -0400 Subject: "A History of Modern Computing", Paul Ceruzzi from Re: *nix on "classic" systems In-Reply-To: <200704130743.12364.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <45yfvg5w2rnlmee.120420070925@jvdg.com> <008c01c77d79$bd36aba0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <461F5855.4030208@dunnington.plus.com> <200704130743.12364.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4631101C.3050400@netscape.net> >>I'm reading "A History of Modern Computing", 2nd Edition, Paul Ceruzzi, Great book. Highly recommended. My review is at http://www.dacs.org/archive/0411/feature2.htm. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 16:16:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:16:04 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <1177619144.21916.103.camel@linux.site> References: , , <1177619144.21916.103.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4630B424.7475.19F00114@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 16:25, Warren Wolfe wrote: > It's a list for old computers. My oldest is an IMSAI. It's a list > for OLD computers, so a related keyword would be, for me, "lawn," as in > "you kids get off of my lawn." Two words, and then a number... I got > my old computer in 1977. That reminded me of something. In my 8" diskette files, I've got an A1 (SSSD) product diskette from Public Key Systems for a product called DEDICATE/32. Runs on an 8080 system, circa 1982. Anyone interested? I may even have the docs for it--but no guarantee. I've also got a copy of Mike Louder's Prime Factor BASIC for the Apple ][. This is an arithmetic extension of Apple BASIC that allows for stuff like modular arithmetic, arbitrary precision numerics, etc. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 26 16:16:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone want a free (plus shipping) Sun Ultra 10? In-Reply-To: <462FEE9C.1040401@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <204374.99039.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> yes indeed...shipping from where? If it's much more then 1,000 miles from NJ, that is if it's even still available, I probably wouldn't be interested. Thanks though :) --- Alan Perry wrote: > > I am getting a new SPARC box for work. My manager > says that the old > Ultra 10 is not worth shipping back. Anyone want it > for the cost of > shipping? > > alan > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 26 17:20:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:20:17 -0600 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <0JH300EIFPWHU8SE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JH300EIFPWHU8SE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <463125A1.8040000@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >>> You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. >>> It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? >>> Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the >>> part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and >>> 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. >> Well if I still had the manual let alone the the VDM ... :( >> > > Manual is on line I think at both Dave and bitsavers. Off hand I don't see it at bitsavers. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 26 16:23:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <462CEA77.9391.B2443B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <445827.1382.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Apr 2007 at 15:51, Chris M wrote: > > > But a '186 is merely an '86 with some other chips > > tacked on. I don't know how V-8086 handles > "additions" > > as it emulates a peecee on a windows box, but it > at > > least seems that you could "add" on the ancillary > '186 > > functionality in the same way you add the other > > components present on a peecee mobo. > > Yes, you probably could. The big problem that I see > is while the > 386/486/Pentium V86 mode is close to what an 80186 > does, there are > differences (itemized in the V86 mode description). > They may not > make any difference, but if they do, you're out of > luck. > Plus, setting up a V86 session is pretty involved. > You need to have > a protected mode server for the V86 session and set > up all of the > IDT/GDT/LDT stuff that goes along with it. It feels > like a lot of > work to me, but I could be mistaken. > > I'm assuming that you're going to host this thing on > DOS; I don't > know what provisions for V86 mode are built into > Linux (never had a > reason to look), but maybe that might be easier. I'm not quite sure what I'm going to host it on. The simply reason is I'm not actually planning on doing anything LOL LOL. A question born out of simple curiosity leads to a project oftentimes, I know, but homie ain't playing that right now. Wouldn't a V86 mode app be a subservient protected mode process thing? Why would someone want to invoke V86 mode in DOS (If I'm understanding you correctly), if it were even possible. Chuck, are you nipping at the cooking sherry again LOL LOL. I would certainly thunk Linaches has a DOS emulator built on top of V86 mode, but what do I know. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 16:46:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:46:27 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <445827.1382.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462CEA77.9391.B2443B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <445827.1382.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4630BB43.6552.1A0BD1C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 14:23, Chris M wrote: > Wouldn't a V86 mode app be a subservient protected > mode process thing? Why would someone want to invoke > V86 mode in DOS (If I'm understanding you correctly), > if it were even possible. Because it's easier to do than on a lot of other platforms. Consider that DPMI servers are run on a DOS base (or did you think that Windows 3.1/95 was something other than a gussied-up DPMI servier? And there's DJGPP...) Windows NT has a V86 mode, but aside from trapping port access via a VDD, I don't know how you modify its memory map easily. > Chuck, are you nipping at the cooking sherry again LOL LOL. Don't have any; if I need sherry to cook with, I use drinkin' sherry. > I would certainly thunk Linaches has a DOS emulator built on > top of V86 mode, but what do I know. It does, but given the complexity of Linux, I don't know how simple it would be to modify it to duplicate a T2000 environment. Cheers, Chuck > Do You Yahoo!? Not if I can help it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 16:36:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:36:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 26, 7 01:40:03 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" > >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... > > I have one of these too, though without the touchscreen or any expansion > cards (it's even missing the rear plastic cover). I have 2 expansion cards in mine. One is the combinded parallel (printer) port and HPIL interface. The other is 2MBytes expanded memory and an HP-HIL port (which is disabled on a 150-II, since there's already a built-in HP-HIL port) > > Seems like an interesting machine, one of these days I must get it set up; > I've only had it 9 years, LOL! How difficult are HP/IB hard drives to come > by for them (I've got the dual floppy drive unit)? The machine can run from just a floppy drive, but a hard drive is certainly useful. How hard they are to find, I don't know. I got my 150-II with a pair of 9133s, a 9154, and a pair of 9142s (QIC tape drives). > > Always hankered after an original 150 though, it's a really cool shape! :-) I'd like one too, mostly due to the fact that the circuitry is _very_ different from that in the 150-II. I'd also like to find one of the HP12x CP.M machines. But I wouldn't even conisder shipping one, so it would have to be somewhere that I could collect it from. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 16:45:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:45:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) In-Reply-To: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Apr 26, 7 07:10:28 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > >> Think I'll just get a Z80 Second Processor for my Beeb > >>instead (far less hassle). > > > > I didn't think those were _that_ common... > > Ooer, don't say that....there used to be *lots* of them at radio rallies, My experience is that all the second processors -- no, make that all the 'cheese wedgrs' -- are rear. > I suppose I could always make one, assuming the necessary ROM images are > available somewhere? I don't recall there being any custom logic in the 6502 I think you've forgotten the 'TUbe ULA' That's a 40 pin custom chip that handles the communication between the Beeb and the second procrossor, and AFAIK it was never fully documetned by Acorn. > Second Processor and my memory of the Torch Z80 2nd processor is waaay to > hazy. The Torch Z80 board did, indeed, use only sandard chips. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 16:28:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:28:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: What monitor is this? In-Reply-To: <1177493226.32101.5.camel@gjcp-desktop> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Apr 25, 7 10:27:06 am Message-ID: > The Amstrad 1512/1640 had the PSU built into the monitor, which could > also power the PPC512/640 "laptop". The connector was a 14-pin DIN, > same as the external floppy connector on an ST. I used to work in a > computer repair shop around the time these machines were current, and we > used to get an Atari ST in every couple of weeks or so where the owner > had "plugged it into his mate's Amstrad monitor and now the disk drive > didn't work". > > Repair was usually a new floppy, new FDC and new sound chip. Why the > sound chip? Well... no, someone else can tell it. I've never worked on an ST, but I'm going to guess that the sound chip also provided a couple of I/O ports, a couple of lines of which were used for drive select. -tony From rcini at optonline.net Thu Apr 26 17:42:41 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:42:41 -0400 Subject: Floppy drive enclosures In-Reply-To: <46306F01.25308.18E1F246@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I actually have two of these with 1.2mb drives in them. I was going to use it for my IMSAI (as 1.2mb 5.25" drives are similar enough to 8" in format) to replace the dual 8" drives that I loathe. I found a dual-SCSI case for $50 on-line. I'm going to browse eBay tonight. That case is a bit shorter (in depth) than the IBM one. On 4/26/07 12:21 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > aachen.de:8000/alf/ps2_80311/ps2_80311_4_full.jpeg Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 26 18:31:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <4630BB43.6552.1A0BD1C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <436920.27559.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Apr 2007 at 14:23, Chris M wrote: > > > Wouldn't a V86 mode app be a subservient > protected > > mode process thing? Why would someone want to > invoke > > V86 mode in DOS (If I'm understanding you > correctly), > > if it were even possible. > > Because it's easier to do than on a lot of other > platforms. Consider > that DPMI servers are run on a DOS base (or did you > think that > Windows 3.1/95 was something other than a gussied-up > DPMI servier? > And there's DJGPP...) So 3.1 (and I'm assuming here you don't mean NT 3.1) runs in real mode, yet is multitasking? I guess I'm tired maybe... > Windows NT has a V86 mode, but aside from trapping > port access via a > VDD, I don't know how you modify its memory map > easily. The classes that go into making a dos-box are similar to those that create the window wherein a VC++ console app run. This much I know... > > Chuck, are you nipping at the cooking sherry again > LOL LOL. > > Don't have any; if I need sherry to cook with, I use > drinkin' sherry. It's the Devil's brew my friend. I'd stay clear of all of it < I was joshing by the way ;) > > > I would certainly thunk Linaches has a DOS > emulator built on > > top of V86 mode, but what do I know. > > It does, but given the complexity of Linux, I don't > know how simple > it would be to modify it to duplicate a T2000 > environment. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Not if I can help it. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 19:04:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:04:28 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <436920.27559.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4630BB43.6552.1A0BD1C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <436920.27559.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4630DB9C.7247.1A8A2A4D@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 16:31, Chris M wrote: > So 3.1 (and I'm assuming here you don't mean NT 3.1) > runs in real mode, yet is multitasking? I guess I'm > tired maybe... No, it runs in protected mode, except for a fair amount of I/O, when it switches to real mode. A fair amount of 95 was that way, too. You can delete the floppy VXD from 95 and it'll just use the real- mode BIOS for diskette I/O without batting an eyeball (or giving an error message). Same goes for devices for which you've loaded real- mode drivers in your config.sys file. Because DOS is a known quantity running in real mode with no protections, it's simple to set up your own descriptors and gates and launch your own protected mode app than having to figure out what someone else is doing. Of course, there's also 32-bit real mode if you like to fool around... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 26 19:14:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <4630DB9C.7247.1A8A2A4D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <990749.41995.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Because DOS is a known quantity running in real mode > with no > protections, it's simple to set up your own > descriptors and gates and > launch your own protected mode app than having to > figure out what > someone else is doing. Of course you could program something to switch to protected mode from dos. How else could W95 or whatever thunk back and forth. Like I said I'm tired... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 26 20:25:30 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:25:30 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: References: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > You could take the approach of the Atari Portfolio. Provide some RAM > at the expected video memory address for the application to fiddle > with. Then periodically scan that RAM and copy whatever is there > to the screen. > > No, it didn't work terribly well with the Portfolio, but it did > help a bit. There were program to emulate CGA display on a Hercules Graphics Card (HGC) that did something very similar. The driver would read the CGA memory region every clock tick and build a (typically) 640x300 representation of the 320x200 (color) or 640x200 (monochrome) CGA screen in the center of the 720x348 (monochrome) HGC screen. It worked much better than you would think. Even the shading to represent color worked, because each 8 color CGA pixel translated into 2 or 4 monochrome pixels. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 20:29:20 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:29:20 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <4630DB9C.7247.1A8A2A4D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4630BB43.6552.1A0BD1C9@cclist.sydex.com> <436920.27559.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <4630DB9C.7247.1A8A2A4D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704261829i4442fa0dt1946b468a84cb9b0@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Apr 2007 at 16:31, Chris M wrote: > > > So 3.1 (and I'm assuming here you don't mean NT 3.1) > > runs in real mode, yet is multitasking? I guess I'm > > tired maybe... > > No, it runs in protected mode, except for a fair amount of I/O, when > it switches to real mode. A fair amount of 95 was that way, too. To be accurate, neither 3.x running in 386 enhanced mode nor 95 switched to real mode while running. They would run lots of stuff in V86 mode though. > > Because DOS is a known quantity running in real mode with no > protections, it's simple to set up your own descriptors and gates and > launch your own protected mode app than having to figure out what > someone else is doing. > It's been years since I've looked at this. If EMM386 is loaded DOS is actually running in V86 mode, isn't it? -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 20:36:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:36:43 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: References: <778257.9299.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <4630F13B.10440.1ADE9FAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 18:25, Eric J Korpela wrote: > It worked much better than you would think. Even the shading to > represent color worked, because each 8 color CGA pixel translated into > 2 or 4 monochrome pixels. Thank you! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 20:47:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:07 -0700 Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90704261829i4442fa0dt1946b468a84cb9b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4630BB43.6552.1A0BD1C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4630DB9C.7247.1A8A2A4D@cclist.sydex.com>, <1e1fc3e90704261829i4442fa0dt1946b468a84cb9b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4630F3AB.3593.1AE82423@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2007 at 18:29, Glen Slick wrote: > It's been years since I've looked at this. If EMM386 is loaded DOS is > actually running in V86 mode, isn't it? I believe so. Wasn't it a limitation that you couldn't run EMM386 under VM386? Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Thu Apr 26 21:21:20 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:21:20 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1177640480.11601.25.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 23:20 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What's the problem with your unit? Does it appear to be a digital > > > problem, or a problem with monitor circuit? > > > > Digital, I suspect. Although, this is a rather bizarre problem, and > > COULD be a video problem, I suppose. When I boot it up, it works > > correctly, as far as I can tell, with the single exception that the > > screen shows what it should be showing, only in reverse video, and > > without the characters being visible, whatever the brightness level. In > > I am not sure quite what you mean here. Do yuo mean that all characters > (other than space) appear as solid blocks? Okay... Yeah, I muffed the explanation somewhat. I don't, upon re-thinking it, have a much better explanation. However, if you would imagine a scenario in which you are TRYING to make a "normal" HP-150 look like mine, I CAN tell you how to do it, quite simply. First, replace all characters on the screen with spaces in the same scheme (normal or inverse video) as the characters were, and then invert the whole screen, on for off and off for on. Then, all the "on" bits are made bright. Other than that, it seems to work just fine. > Boy do you need the schmatics! I've looked at the 150 'Video Alpha > Display Sybsystem' and the overall design is what you'd expect, but the > details are odd. And I susepct it's one of those odd bits that's causing > the problems Yeah. Most problems I've seen with computers, probably more than three quarters, do NOT need schematics to solve. > OK, the basic dsegin is a CRT controller -- here an SMC9007 (U315) which > addreeses the video RAM. The output of the video RAM is 16 bits wide > (character and attrboutes), the character part -- 10 bits of it -- goes > to the address lines of a character generator ROM U512. The output of > that goes to a shift register (U511 and U612, 'S195) which does the > obvious dot serialisation. > > The attribute logic is compiclated, but based round a 16L6 HAL (mask > programmed PAL) U314. I do _not_ have the PAL equatiuons. The outputs of > that are latced (U614, '174) and feed the 'Dot Stream Mixer', a 'S153 mux > which combines the alpha dots and the graphics system dots, and which > then produses the Full Brightness and Half Brightness signals to the > 'Sweep' (monitor) PCB. Just from the symptoms, I'd bet a reasonable meal on the S153 mux. If it's not, it's almost GOT to be multiple problems, and that seems more than a little unlikely. > The complicated bit is round those shift registers I mentioned. There's > some logic to, I think, make the line-drawing characters touch on-screen. > This is controlled bu U46b ('S74) and is based rounf U78b ('S112) and > U713b and a ('S09),, U712d ('LS00) and U610a ('S32) > > There's even a couple of gates between the 2 shift register ICs, but I > think if that was the problem you'd get half of each character displayed > correctly. > > I think I'd start by looking at pin 3 of U713. That's the alpha dot > stream going into the mixing logic. What you're looking for is fine > enough pulses to be character dots, rather htan complete character cells. > If You've got that, suspect a problem round U715. If not (and I think you > won't have it), go back to U78b, etc. > > > > [1] Although I always thought Tektronix made better 'scopes :-) > > > > > > I think the Tek's may have been more fully-featured, but I liked the > > HP 'scopes just fine. If you leave the two companies out of it, you've > > cut off almost all the truly great 'scopes. > > Oh, I quited like Nicolet and LeCroy :-). Not that I own any of their > instrumnets, alas.. I've never seen them. Must be that "pond" thing, what? > > > I have an _old_ -- over 40 eyars old -- HP frequncy counter. > > > > > > Sounds like you are discussing an HP 5245L... > > Exactly. Well, it could also have been a 5243L, which is the 10MHz > version (the 5245 being 50MHz). I have one of each. Actually, a fair > number of the PCBs are common to both instruemtns. I also have some, but > certianly not all, of the plug-ins Now THAT was some fine engineering. Old enough that they had to use Nixie tubes, but, whatever. Watching them was more than a little hypnotic. I repaired many of them. Which is not to say they were not reliable... The pool of instruments was quite large. > > Yes! Our lab had a cesium beam that we used as an external standard > > for the 5245Ls. Truth be told, however, there really wasn't much > > Alas I have to 'make do' with the internal crystal. I am told that HP > sold a rubidium beam (sub)standard that was in a 19" rack module, and > which you simply cabled up to the external oscillator input on the 5245L. > I don't hjave it, thouhg. The calibration of the crystal oscillator takes about three days to do correctly, and stays within tolerance for about 15 months, if I remember the data correctly. You'd be disappointed by the rubidium beam frequency reference, however. It drifts, too, albeit not quite as fast as the crystal oven oscillator. You'd have to calibrate *IT* every few times you did the counter. > > difference, especially if one "tuned up" the crystal oscillator by > > beating it against the Cs beam frequency reference. We were ACCURATE. > > That's the problem. Unless you have a Rb or CS beam reference, it's > almost impossible to calibrate the crystal, and the crystal can and will > drift slightly over time. Not enough to bother me (I am darn sure the > instruemnt is more accurate than any modern thing that I could afford), > but still. The GOOD thing is that those equipments ALWAYS drift UP in frequency, very regularly, and very slowly. The calibration process involves measuring the drift over a couple days, and comparing that with previous data if available to check for anomalies. Then, the oscillator is set slow, JUST within tolerance, and the drift figure obtained in the first part is used to predict the length of time it will be within tolerance. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Apr 26 22:14:20 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:14:20 -0300 Subject: Junkbox parts... References: <0JH0005RU80EEGUJ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <021601c7887a$30ecc740$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I've seen that and personally I'd like to isolate the system from the > nasty scancode output from the keyboard so that the result looks like > simple ASCII 7bit. I'd have to reprogram the 8742s to do that as the > extracted parts only serve as a serial IO and buffer. Although this is a cannon to kill a microbe, it can be done. www.mcselec.com has a nice basic compiler with incluided PS2 keyboard decoding. Write a small basic program to translate the scancodes to whatever-you-want and you're in! From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 26 08:55:21 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:55:21 +0100 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <463000D1.3040402@gmail.com> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> <462F4516.3020808@gmail.com> <1177504416.8671.8.camel@gjcp-desktop> <463000D1.3040402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1177595721.11163.21.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 21:30 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 08:09 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > >> Have you ever played with rust-covered scotch tape in a reel-to-reel > >> tape player? It works surprisingly well. > > > > Tim Hunkin did this in one episode of his series "The Secret Life of > > Machines". > > Really. I might have to see if I can dig that up. > > Peace... Sridhar > http://www.secretlifeofmachines.com/ http://www.timhunkin.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunkin http://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/ Just a few off the top of my head. Tim Hunkin is something of a hero of mine ;-) Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Apr 26 11:54:41 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:54:41 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-200 and DECserver terminal server. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022E9F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> That's most kind of you. I do go up to Coventry and Birmingham from time to time. So could collect. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline Sent: 26 April 2007 11:04 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAX 4000-200 and DECserver terminal server. I have some stuff stored in the protacabin outside will check later today or tommorow, in the east midlands free for collection Dave Caroline On 4/25/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > A while back I aquired a VAX4000-200 (made circa 1990) via the DEC > 'Old boy' network. > Some list members were kind enough to help me get the system password > reset. > It booted, ran and the icing on the cake was it was loaded with VMS > 6.2 and TCPWARE. > That made it compatible with current networks. > A BNC cable and cheap hub got me to 10baseT and with it a connection > to my office network. > > Recently I was given a pile of terminals and printers. I managed to > salvage two VT420's one HP700 and two LA75 Printers. > That brought my system up to three VT420's and an LA75 + Spares. > > As some of you will know I worked for DEC for 10 Years +. The > system I'm building up represents my idea of the 'Golden Age' of DEC > (1980-1990) > > I want to use all DEC kit therefore the HP 700 is surplus. What I need > is a DECServer with four or more DECconnect or RS232 ports on it. > Most of them are BNC 50Ohm thin ethernet or AUI in and DECconnect or > 25Way D out. They look a bit like a hub with a BNC connector in a > depression in the top. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 26 16:40:13 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:40:13 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH4003CXK3ZONY3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: woodelf > Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:20:17 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>>> You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. >>>> It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? >>>> Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the >>>> part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and >>>> 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. >>> Well if I still had the manual let alone the the VDM ... :( >>> >> >> Manual is on line I think at both Dave and bitsavers. > >Off hand I don't see it at bitsavers. > the stufffs out here. Here's Dave's site and page. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100c/index.htm Scroll down the page to Processor tech it's a 6mb PDF but that manual has sources for the Driver program, listing of the pattern for the character rom and operating theory. Else where on the same page are several other S100 boards that do video some are 64x16 and at least one is 80x24. Dave happens to have a well organized site for old computer history. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 01:13:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 02:13:16 -0400 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <1177595721.11163.21.camel@gjcp-desktop> References: <462E3BC1.18773.1049C8F8@cclist.sydex.com> <462F29C3.4040403@gmail.com> <462F4516.3020808@gmail.com> <1177504416.8671.8.camel@gjcp-desktop> <463000D1.3040402@gmail.com> <1177595721.11163.21.camel@gjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <4631947C.6040704@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> Have you ever played with rust-covered scotch tape in a reel-to-reel >>>> tape player? It works surprisingly well. >>> Tim Hunkin did this in one episode of his series "The Secret Life of >>> Machines". >> Really. I might have to see if I can dig that up. >> > http://www.secretlifeofmachines.com/ > http://www.timhunkin.com/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunkin > http://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/ > > Just a few off the top of my head. Tim Hunkin is something of a hero of > mine ;-) I've seen the show before, but I don't believe I've ever seen that particular episode. In any case, I've downloaded the entire series through the kind courtesy of someone on the list. Peace... Sridhar From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 04:01:34 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:01:34 +0100 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: This was given to me by the VAT inspector a few years ago www.archivist.info/fred The clever part is it can have record offsets and sizes set so it make browsing a db file easy Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 05:11:22 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:11:22 +0100 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses Message-ID: I am thinking of compiling a list of objects or instruments or whatever from the early days that included a microprocessor, eg An arcade biorythm machine I had for a while it had an Intel 4004 in it A Facit printer we used at work it had 4 intel 4040 in it (I cant remember the model number) I have a card from an HP item that has an 8008 on it An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) A R&S RF test set with a 4004 (I kept the CPU board) It annoys me now that I did not take full notes at the time Dave Caroline From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 27 06:20:44 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:20:44 -0400 Subject: Junkbox parts... Message-ID: <0JH500L49M3A68QC@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > From: "Alexandre Souza" > Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:14:20 -0300 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >> I've seen that and personally I'd like to isolate the system from the >> nasty scancode output from the keyboard so that the result looks like >> simple ASCII 7bit. I'd have to reprogram the 8742s to do that as the >> extracted parts only serve as a serial IO and buffer. > > Although this is a cannon to kill a microbe, it can be done. >www.mcselec.com has a nice basic compiler with incluided PS2 keyboard >decoding. Write a small basic program to translate the scancodes to >whatever-you-want and you're in! Not only the heavyest solution I've seen to date also one of the more costly. The "nice" basic compiler is 79Euros. Allison From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 27 07:29:43 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:29:43 -0300 Subject: Junkbox parts... References: <0JH500L49M3A68QC@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <032501c788c7$bf6b05c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Not only the heavyest solution I've seen to date also one of the > more costly. The "nice" basic compiler is 79Euros. The free version is good for 2K or 4K of code, you don't need to pay. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 27 10:09:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:09:22 -0700 Subject: PCB edge connector In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bob R. just informed me that s100 boards were .125. I don't know why I didn't measure one. I was thinking they were .100. I've got some protos I can cut up. Thanks All Dwight >From: "dwight elvey" > >Hi >Can you all check in your junk boxes. I'm looking for a junk PC board >with 100 pins ( 50/side ) 0.125 spaced pins. >I've checked a number of places and all I find are either PC bus proto >boards or 44 pins 0.156. I expect to cut the edge off so it can >be more pins. >Dwight > >_________________________________________________________________ >Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. >http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 11:28:59 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:28:59 -0700 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The AM (Addressograph Multigraph) 100 typesetter used a 4004. It was the first of the AM typesetters On 4/27/07, Dave Caroline wrote: > I am thinking of compiling a list of objects or instruments or > whatever from the early days that included a microprocessor, eg > An arcade biorythm machine I had for a while it had an Intel 4004 in it > A Facit printer we used at work it had 4 intel 4040 in it (I cant > remember the model number) > I have a card from an HP item that has an 8008 on it > An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) > A R&S RF test set with a 4004 (I kept the CPU board) The AM (Addressograph Multigraph) 100 typesetter used a 4004. It was the first of the AM typesetters. The HP series of 26XX terminals used an 8008 I seem to remember. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 27 13:59:19 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:59:19 -0400 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200704271859.l3RIxRtV034373@keith.ezwind.net> The infortext system 1977 purchased by AM international about 18 months latter was the first comercial user of the Signetics 2650 processor in its copy control system. I think, I still have one of the origional wirewrap motherboards and a card reader somewhere in storage. The system used credit card size plastic card punched on a modified card punch to provide copy control. My first big instals were at the Navel Air Systems Command in DC. BlueCross Chicago and GE Nuclear in San Jose. We controled copymachines you put your card in, if reconized we enabled the copier and counted your copies and origional changes and using the 2650's onchip uart drove a telegraph based wan connection to a central data logger. To keep their avarage line tarrif low MaBell had never raised the telegraph line terrifs and were not happy when we started ordering hard copper telegraph lines, at $2 to $3 per month for up to 2 miles. When they claimed they were data lines at 10 times that, we demanded they put a scope on one of our lines, they gave in. I spent 13 weeks in San Jose that first year durring the Pacific Bell strike punching my own cross-connects. Other than a few pinball machines, I do not know of any other 2650 based systems. I left Infortext when Addresse-grief Multi-grief came in and anounced the takeover. They called a company meeting of the dozen or so engineering, service, and production people and informed everyone that based on AM's corporate guidelines everyone who was hired by the previous owners was overpaid without exception. All raises and reviews were to be put on hold until we came into line with the rest of AM international based on some new paygrade system. We had all been waiting for raises that were long over due by the cash strapped startup. With the exception of the founders just about everyone found new jobs within a week at most. AM brought one programmer at a consulting rate to comment code code for a while. And one of the production guys had just has a kid and stayed for a while. I had insatlaled about 200 - 250 systems spread from east to west when AM made their move. Some say, AM quickly dumped Infortext in the early 80's, while others at the time claim to have purchased their freedom from AM. Here is a http://tinyurl.com/25c4z3 to the New York Times October 29, 1981 anoucement. In 1992 it became and remains today ISI Telemanagement Solutions, Inc. Back under my rock .... Bob Bradlee On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:28:59 -0700, Paxton Hoag wrote: >The AM (Addressograph Multigraph) 100 typesetter used a 4004. It was >the first of the AM typesetters >On 4/27/07, Dave Caroline wrote: >> I am thinking of compiling a list of objects or instruments or >> whatever from the early days that included a microprocessor, eg >> An arcade biorythm machine I had for a while it had an Intel 4004 in it >> A Facit printer we used at work it had 4 intel 4040 in it (I cant >> remember the model number) >> I have a card from an HP item that has an 8008 on it >> An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) >> A R&S RF test set with a 4004 (I kept the CPU board) >The AM (Addressograph Multigraph) 100 typesetter used a 4004. It was >the first of the AM typesetters. >The HP series of 26XX terminals used an 8008 I seem to remember. >-- >Paxton Hoag >Astoria, OR >USA From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 27 15:54:17 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:54:17 -0300 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses References: <200704271859.l3RIxRtV034373@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <043201c7890e$499f90d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Other than a few pinball machines, I do not know of any other 2650 based > systems. Do you know any? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 17:11:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:11:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177640480.11601.25.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 26, 7 10:21:20 pm Message-ID: > > > > > What's the problem with your unit? Does it appear to be a digital > > > > problem, or a problem with monitor circuit? > > > > > > Digital, I suspect. Although, this is a rather bizarre problem, and > > > COULD be a video problem, I suppose. When I boot it up, it works > > > correctly, as far as I can tell, with the single exception that the > > > screen shows what it should be showing, only in reverse video, and > > > without the characters being visible, whatever the brightness level. In > > > > I am not sure quite what you mean here. Do yuo mean that all characters > > (other than space) appear as solid blocks? > > > Okay... Yeah, I muffed the explanation somewhat. I don't, upon > re-thinking it, have a much better explanation. However, if you would > imagine a scenario in which you are TRYING to make a "normal" HP-150 > look like mine, I CAN tell you how to do it, quite simply. First, > replace all characters on the screen with spaces in the same scheme > (normal or inverse video) as the characters were, and then invert the > whole screen, on for off and off for on. Then, all the "on" bits are > made bright. Other than that, it seems to work just fine. So, if you disable PAM and just get na MS-DOS screen, what you're saying is that the screen is mostly white, with black blocks where the prompt would be ? THat's really strange... > > Boy do you need the schmatics! I've looked at the 150 'Video Alpha > > Display Sybsystem' and the overall design is what you'd expect, but the > > details are odd. And I susepct it's one of those odd bits that's causing > > the problems > > > Yeah. Most problems I've seen with computers, > probably more than three quarters, do NOT need schematics to solve. Ypu're lucky (or I'm stupid). Most of the time I find I do need schematics. > > > > > OK, the basic dsegin is a CRT controller -- here an SMC9007 (U315) which > > addreeses the video RAM. The output of the video RAM is 16 bits wide > > (character and attrboutes), the character part -- 10 bits of it -- goes > > to the address lines of a character generator ROM U512. The output of > > that goes to a shift register (U511 and U612, 'S195) which does the > > obvious dot serialisation. > > > > The attribute logic is compiclated, but based round a 16L6 HAL (mask > > programmed PAL) U314. I do _not_ have the PAL equatiuons. The outputs of > > that are latced (U614, '174) and feed the 'Dot Stream Mixer', a 'S153 mux > > which combines the alpha dots and the graphics system dots, and which > > then produses the Full Brightness and Half Brightness signals to the > > 'Sweep' (monitor) PCB. > > > Just from the symptoms, I'd bet a reasonable meal on the S153 mux. I wouldn't. I'd want to go back a stage to that dot-expansion logic I mentioned later. I think, if that was malfucntioning, it could hold the dotstram line to that 'S153 in either state. I can't see how the 'S153 would slow the signal down sufficiently to remove all the character pattern data. > > The complicated bit is round those shift registers I mentioned. There's > > some logic to, I think, make the line-drawing characters touch on-screen. > > This is controlled bu U46b ('S74) and is based rounf U78b ('S112) and > > U713b and a ('S09),, U712d ('LS00) and U610a ('S32) > > > > There's even a couple of gates between the 2 shift register ICs, but I > > think if that was the problem you'd get half of each character displayed > > correctly. > > > > I have an _old_ -- over 40 eyars old -- HP frequncy counter. > > > > > > > > > Sounds like you are discussing an HP 5245L... > > > > Exactly. Well, it could also have been a 5243L, which is the 10MHz > > version (the 5245 being 50MHz). I have one of each. Actually, a fair > > number of the PCBs are common to both instruemtns. I also have some, but > > certianly not all, of the plug-ins > > > Now THAT was some fine engineering. Old enough that they had to use Indeed it was. As I keep on saying, that's what I loved about the old HP and what I miss in the mdoern stuff. Built like a brick outhose, easy to work on, reliable, accurate. > > > Yes! Our lab had a cesium beam that we used as an external standard > > > for the 5245Ls. Truth be told, however, there really wasn't much > > > > Alas I have to 'make do' with the internal crystal. I am told that HP > > sold a rubidium beam (sub)standard that was in a 19" rack module, and > > which you simply cabled up to the external oscillator input on the 5245L. > > I don't hjave it, thouhg. > > > The calibration of the crystal oscillator takes about three days to > do correctly, and stays within tolerance for about 15 months, if I > remember the data correctly. You'd be disappointed by the rubidium beam > frequency reference, however. It drifts, too, albeit not quite as fast I am suprised. What on earth is the mechanism for that, and how do you adjust it. What actually controls the frequency of the Rb beam standard, and how does it drift -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 17:15:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:15:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Apr 27, 7 11:11:22 am Message-ID: > > I am thinking of compiling a list of objects or instruments or > whatever from the early days that included a microprocessor, eg What do you mean by 'early days'? > An arcade biorythm machine I had for a while it had an Intel 4004 in it > A Facit printer we used at work it had 4 intel 4040 in it (I cant > remember the model number) > I have a card from an HP item that has an 8008 on it If you've got the part number of the board, the first 5 digits (before the hyphen) are the model number of the instruemnt that first used it, padded out with 0's > An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) > A R&S RF test set with a 4004 (I kept the CPU board) There was a Fluke data logger, a 2240 IIRC, that was controlled by a 4040. And I think some of the optional interface cards also had 4040s on them, The Intel UPP (Univeral PROM Programmer) had a 4040 in it, but that might be a little late for you I think everyone here knows that the PDP11/34 programmer's panel (KY11) is controlled by an 8008 -tony From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:34:48 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:34:48 -0400 Subject: Good news: The MSCP SCSI 1.2 board booted VMS6.1 CD! Message-ID: Good news! Minutes ago the MSCP SCSI 1.2 board booted VMS6.1 CD. It booted to a $ prompt and I did not know what to do next. It is a pity that I left my camera in my office and could not record this moment. :) vax, 9000 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 27 17:50:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:50:55 -0400 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83BDDF4D-61A9-46EB-B993-8AD946B2A5B4@neurotica.com> On Apr 27, 2007, at 6:11 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I am thinking of compiling a list of objects or instruments or > whatever from the early days that included a microprocessor, eg > An arcade biorythm machine I had for a while it had an Intel 4004 > in it > A Facit printer we used at work it had 4 intel 4040 in it (I cant > remember the model number) > I have a card from an HP item that has an 8008 on it > An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) > A R&S RF test set with a 4004 (I kept the CPU board) I believe the ProLog M900 EPROM programmer is built around a 4040, isn't it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 27 17:52:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:52:02 -0400 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C0D0F79-E7E9-48DC-9B78-6257D18DE79F@neurotica.com> On Apr 27, 2007, at 6:11 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) Oh and...please drop me a note if you ever want to part with that. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 27 18:36:27 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:36:27 -0400 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: <043201c7890e$499f90d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200704272336.l3RNaZIn048442@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:54:17 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Other than a few pinball machines, I do not know of any other 2650 based >> systems. > Do you know any? I know the Arcadia 2001 built in the early 80's used a 2650 and there was a pinball repairman who purchased a number of them from me on ebay a few years back, I forget which machine he said he needed them for, but he was happy to find I had a few to sell. later Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 27 18:45:05 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: <83BDDF4D-61A9-46EB-B993-8AD946B2A5B4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <129726.57415.qm@web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dave McGuire wrote:I believe the ProLog M900 EPROM programmer is built around a 4040, isn't it? -Dave The Pro-Log M900 is 4004 based (I have two), and the M980 uses the 4040. In the manual for the M900 is the source code listing for the EPROMS (1702's). I plan on making one of mine into a 4004 development system someday. It has a keypad, LED display, and some I/O ports. Bob From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 19:05:27 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:05:27 +0100 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: <6C0D0F79-E7E9-48DC-9B78-6257D18DE79F@neurotica.com> References: <6C0D0F79-E7E9-48DC-9B78-6257D18DE79F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4/27/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 27, 2007, at 6:11 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > > An HP 3562A has 68K and a 2900 bitslice (I have a working one) > > Oh and...please drop me a note if you ever want to part with that. =) > hehe I just got it a few days ago, Ive been wanting one for a long time as my HP 5420A systems are dieing(dead) due to the rubber rollers on the tape drives, they load the software from tape every boot > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 27 19:09:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:09:14 -0700 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: <200704272336.l3RNaZIn048442@keith.ezwind.net> References: <043201c7890e$499f90d0$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <200704272336.l3RNaZIn048442@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46322E3A.16049.1FB4E76E@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2007 at 19:36, Bob Bradlee wrote: > I know the Arcadia 2001 built in the early 80's used a 2650 > and there was a pinball repairman who purchased a number of them from me on ebay > a few years back, I forget which machine he said he needed them for, but he was happy to find I had a > few to sell. There were also a couple of microprocessor "trainers" that used them, but, no, it never saw general application. I suspect that the 32K memory limit put it at a distinct disadvantage, alhtough the instruction set was pretty decent. I'm really surprised that it wasn't used more in terminals. The 2650 has to be one of the interesting oddball cases in that I'll wager that far more 2651/2661 USARTs were sold than 2650 CPUs. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 27 20:05:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The 640k "barrier" (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 54) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90704261829i4442fa0dt1946b468a84cb9b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <143759.9526.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Glen Slick wrote: > On 4/26/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 26 Apr 2007 at 16:31, Chris M wrote: > > > > > So 3.1 (and I'm assuming here you don't mean NT > 3.1) > > > runs in real mode, yet is multitasking? I guess > I'm > > > tired maybe... > > > > No, it runs in protected mode, except for a fair > amount of I/O, when > > it switches to real mode. A fair amount of 95 was > that way, too. > > To be accurate, neither 3.x running in 386 enhanced > mode nor 95 > switched to real mode while running. They would run > lots of stuff in > V86 mode though. > > > > > Because DOS is a known quantity running in real > mode with no > > protections, it's simple to set up your own > descriptors and gates and > > launch your own protected mode app than having to > figure out what > > someone else is doing. > > > > It's been years since I've looked at this. If > EMM386 is loaded DOS is > actually running in V86 mode, isn't it? > > -Glen IIRC, yes all 16 bit stuff gets implemented in V86 mode. At least w/Win95, according to Andrew Schullman (or at least w/Chicago, but I guess we can safely say this applies to the official Win95 release.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 27 20:43:46 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. Message-ID: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this benighted piece of junk. How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've got all the screws out, got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top half seems to float off except for something in the middle of the board I can't see that's holding it on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't get the display apart either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo the root. Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using the fragmentation method instead? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Apr 27 20:46:08 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:46:08 -0500 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine In-Reply-To: <463028F3.2050008@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JH200IALKHGFDC8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <463028F3.2050008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4632A760.5010800@pacbell.net> woodelf wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. >> It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? >> Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the >> part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and >> 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. > > Well if I still had the manual let alone the the VDM ... :( The ROM images are available as C character stucts in my Solace emulator. According to the manual, the Sol was sold with two different characters sets (I don't know if that is true or not). Both are available at: http://www.sol20.org/solace.html Download the source. Look in charset_6574.c and charset_6575.c From rcini at optonline.net Fri Apr 27 21:27:29 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:27:29 -0400 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC page Message-ID: All: For those who might be interested, I started an information page on the 68k SBC that I received last week. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ht68k.htm I have all of the manuals copied but I haven?t started scanning it yet. I will probably try to do some tomorrow., and I?ll try to take a picture or two. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 27 23:58:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Apr 27, 7 06:43:46 pm" Message-ID: <200704280458.l3S4wvHm014744@floodgap.com> > I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this benighted piece of junk. > How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've got all the screws out, > got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top half seems to float off > except for something in the middle of the board I can't see that's holding it > on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't get the display apart > either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo the root. > > Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using the fragmentation > method instead? Well, I put it back together and now the display doesn't work. I'd try to fix it, but I can't open it. Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 27 23:18:46 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 05:18:46 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) References: Message-ID: <011501c78952$6f3de780$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > My experience is that all the second processors -- no, make that >all the 'cheese wedgrs' -- are rear. It's a shame I never got one when I picked up my other "wedges". It was always on my "list" of things to get, but they used to be reasonably easy to find at radio rallies and I always ended up finding something more interesting and leaving it for "next time".... :-( > I think you've forgotten the 'TUbe ULA' That's a 40 pin custom chip >that handles the communication between the Beeb and the second.... I certainly had. Bit of a show stopper that really.... ;-) I was just trying to remember where I'd stored that wirewrapping stuff I haven't touched for 15 years too. > The Torch Z80 board did, indeed, use only sandard chips. Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 Second Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? Did Acorn ever release a "cheese-wedge" 65c02 or 65816? Also, is it possible to replace the 6502 in one of these with a 65c02; not that I'd actually try it, unless the 6502 was socketed, but I recall having BIG problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running a 65c02 in a Model B sometime in the early 90's? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 27 23:34:19 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 05:34:19 +0100 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <011601c78952$6f6d8300$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I still routinely disassemble drivers and ROMs--and the tools >have gotten hugely better. A good diassembler such as IDA is >wonderful. I've heard about "IDA", is it commercial or freeware (I suspect the former)? Can't remember what I was using, I'd have to dig out the hard drives all that stuff is archived on (that particular machine expired and after checking the drives were OK I put them aside to deal with later....). Whatever the disassembler I was using, it was extremely configurable, but it was still a *lot* more work than I'd envisioned as it was a totally unknown system to me. In contrast, at around the same time I also disassembled the Atari 5200 and 7800 "BIOS" ROMs, this was a breeze as the 5200 is essentially a 400/800 with a different memory map and I used to program for the 7800. I did post them on my website at the time....another thing I should pull of those drives and put back online! > It's safe to say that there hasn't been an IDE drive manufactured >within the last 10 years that supports 8 bit data transfer mode.... Thanks for the info, seems I'd missed more of the developments in the IDE world than I'd thought. :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sat Apr 28 00:01:51 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:01:51 +0100 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? References: <0JH00068P3OHLE53@vms040.mailsrvcs.net><011501c787a5$27b315b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46308CEE.3030701@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <011701c78952$6f9f8f80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> And they were bl**dy unreliable too! :-( > > That worries me about the Amiga one.... I'd tentatively say that if you have a working one, it'll likely keep working for a while to come. All the ones that I and several friends bought either failed within the first couple of months, or failed about 2 months after the guarantee expired...! If you have one that still works I'd say you've got one of the good ones. ;-) BTW The failure in our cases was that the drive failed to spin up properly/couldn't get up to speed. > I did that too... I've sort of given up on SCSI now for drives >though, simply because the prices for tested/used IDE drives [1] >are so much cheaper than SCSI, and for storage of things like scans >and images I don't *need* the performance. The reason I've been using SCSI up till now wasn't for the performance of the drives as such. More because of the fact that the SCSI subsystem is an intelligent susbystem an puts far fewer demands on Windows than IDE does. It makes for a far "smoother" running system, I'm constantly irritated by the little pauses and stutters whenever Windows accesses an IDE drive (this is true even in the case of these two "high performance" IDE drives I'm using now). If it wasn't for the racket my SCSI drives make (I always run at least three in my configuration, sounds like it's about to take off!!) I'd switch back to them in a flash. I'm thinking about investigating SATA as the drives are very cheap now, but from the little information I've seen thus far, it's essentially just the cabling that's changed and the system has to service them in the same manner as parallel IDE? > [1] I don't buy new stuff, not for PCs - not when the price drops so >much for "previous generation".... Same here, there's far too much of a premium on the latest gear. My attitude to PC's now is pretty much "So what if it's last year's model, you paid 8 times more for it than I just did....and it still works just as well". :-) I got really tired of buying the latest bit of gear, only to see the price halve in the space of a couple of months. >....Unfortunately SCSI drives of 36GB and up don't seem to be >readily available. Haven't looked on eBay for a while, but there used to be loads on there around 18 months ago. They tended to come and go in waves on there, one week there'd be loads, the next nothing....you can get some real bargains too if you put in a bit of time searching (last time I got a pair of brand new, unused, 70 odd GB Seagates for ?25 each, SCA-80 connectors and surprisingly unpopular despite the adapters only being about ?3). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Apr 27 22:49:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 04:49:13 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors (was: Re: Quick survey on equipment) References: <019801c787c9$96cd4640$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <2f806cd70704252354o57958215wc3f152d624beed7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011401c78952$6f1550e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Acorn used a custom "ULA" chip to handle communications between >the second processor.... Damn! That puts a crimp in an otherwise damn fine plan. ;-/ I honestly don't remember seeing the ULA when I last had my 6502 2nd proc apart, but it's been the best part of 10 years.... > The Acorn one has definiatly been emulated, in Sprow's AEM7TDMI >co-processor for example: Sounds like an interesting page, I'll go check it out. Thanks. >> Do you know of any websites where I could get more info? >> > > Sprow's page above has a link to Acorn's Tube application notes - that > should get you started on how the tube actually /worked/ .. Thanks. I did try googling for the information before asking in here. Unfortunately, at the time, for some reason I couldn't find much beyond "'cheese wedge' second processors work" and "there were internal coprocessors for the Master". Things are a lot clearer now. > Whilst not wishing to remove an 8-bit thread from cc, you are >probably best asking for technical info over on the bbc micro >mailing list.... Thanks, I found that one shortly after posting my previous message. I've not subscribed yet, just been browsing the archives for now. Looks good. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 00:10:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:10:30 -0700 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280458.l3S4wvHm014744@floodgap.com> References: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Apr 27, 7 06:43:46 pm", <200704280458.l3S4wvHm014744@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <463274D6.16919.20C8B2E8@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2007 at 21:58, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my > bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the > Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- serviceable components inside"? ;-) Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 28 00:22:36 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <463274D6.16919.20C8B2E8@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 27, 7 10:10:30 pm" Message-ID: <200704280522.l3S5MabF012608@floodgap.com> > > Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my > > bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the > > Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. > > Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- > serviceable components inside"? ;-) No, it just doesn't say much of anything. I have never met a machine more impossible to get into for its size. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What's another word for thesaurus? ----------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 00:24:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:24:27 -0700 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? In-Reply-To: <011601c78952$6f6d8300$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <011601c78952$6f6d8300$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4632781B.22790.20D579BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2007 at 5:34, Ensor wrote: > I've heard about "IDA", is it commercial or freeware (I suspect the former)? Yes--there's a free version (it's down-level 4.3 and is text mode and run on DOS) at: http://www.downloadjunction.com/product/software/69070/index.html ...and then there's the full-blown up-to-date commercial Gooey version: http://www.datarescue.com/ The GUI version is pretty neat, but you can get by with the text version. Supports a number of processors, including PDP-11. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 00:38:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:38:11 -0700 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280458.l3S4wvHm014744@floodgap.com> References: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Apr 27, 7 06:43:46 pm", <200704280458.l3S4wvHm014744@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46327B53.25836.20E20C65@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2007 at 21:58, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Well, I put it back together and now the display doesn't work. I'd try to fix > it, but I can't open it. > > Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my > bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the > Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. Does this help? http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s=d1b1e810af27ba12ad673fdae5a 534a4&showtopic=80645 At least you have a kindred soul out there... --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 27 23:09:29 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:09:29 -0700 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> References: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:43 PM -0700 4/27/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this benighted piece of junk. >How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've got all the screws out, >got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top half seems to float off >except for something in the middle of the board I can't see that's holding it >on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't get the display apart >either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo the root. > >Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using the fragmentation >method instead? Yes, send it to me! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 00:46:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:46:40 -0700 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <463274D6.16919.20C8B2E8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com>, <200704280458.l3S4wvHm014744@floodgap.com>, <463274D6.16919.20C8B2E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46327D50.26292.20E9CE88@cclist.sydex.com> Cameron, here's some good stuff by someone who apparently knows how: http://atari.st-katharina- apotheke.de/home.php?lang=ge&headline=SuperStacy&texte=S_STacy Unfortunately, it's in German... Cheers, Chuck From andy at smokebelch.org Sat Apr 28 03:02:22 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 09:02:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280522.l3S5MabF012608@floodgap.com> References: <200704280522.l3S5MabF012608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070428090130.H37130@plum.flirble.org> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my >>> bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the >>> Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. >> >> Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- >> serviceable components inside"? ;-) > > No, it just doesn't say much of anything. > > I have never met a machine more impossible to get into for its size. For your next torture, I mean task, try getting the lid back on a VAXstation 2000. Andrew From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 28 03:43:01 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 09:43:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. Message-ID: <249970.38521.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> If you do take a hammer to it (hope you dont) perhaps you can video it so that we can learn from it. I know i learnt a little about harddrives from one on YouTube, even if the guy messing with it damaged it. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this benighted piece of junk. > How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've got all the screws out, > got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top half seems to float off > except for something in the middle of the board I can't see that's holding it > on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't get the display apart > either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo the root. > > Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using the fragmentation > method instead? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From cheri-post at web.de Sat Apr 28 04:27:09 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:27:09 +0200 Subject: Good news: The MSCP SCSI 1.2 board booted VMS6.1 CD! Message-ID: <1966433113@web.de> > Good news! > Minutes ago the MSCP SCSI 1.2 board booted VMS6.1 CD. > It booted to a $ prompt and I did not know what to do next. Easy, just sit there and enjoy the upcome of the prompt-sign :-) Good work !!! Pierre _______________________________________________________________ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Apr 28 04:31:19 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 02:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <283086.42509.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Have you taken the Atari-Stacy 'sticker' off of the bottom of the display? There are screws beneath it. You need to dismantle the display to access the cable, which will then all further disassembly. --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this > benighted piece of junk. > How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've > got all the screws out, > got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top > half seems to float off > except for something in the middle of the board I > can't see that's holding it > on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't > get the display apart > either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo > the root. > > Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using > the fragmentation > method instead? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * > www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's > farther away. ------------- > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 28 08:50:04 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:50:04 -0300 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. References: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <051301c7899c$25136500$f0fea8c0@alpha> > At 6:43 PM -0700 4/27/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this benighted piece of >>junk. >>How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've got all the screws out, >>got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top half seems to float off >>except for something in the middle of the board I can't see that's holding >>it >>on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't get the display apart >>either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo the root. >>Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using the fragmentation >>method instead? > Yes, send it to me! :^) Second on the queue. Maybe Zane is not home, or too busy :o) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 28 10:59:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <283086.42509.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from steven stengel at "Apr 28, 7 02:31:19 am" Message-ID: <200704281559.l3SFxvNG012100@floodgap.com> Thanks to Steven Stengel's suggestion, I got it open and fixed the display, which (as suspected) was just the cable avulsing from the mainboard. Naturally now the plastic snaps don't match up again and the display makes an awful groaning noise unless I cinch the whole business together when I open it. I can hardly wait to install a new hard drive in this rat trap. (sarcasm) What was Atari thinking? On the plus side, I coincidentally found a very nice Mega ST 4, dual monitors, hard disk and blitter. Perhaps I will retire the STup, er, STacy to a display piece and use that instead. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eight out of ten voices in my head say, "don't shoot!" --------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 28 12:28:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:28:13 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM100-2A drives Message-ID: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone know if these are 40 or 80 cylinder? Google seems to suggest that they're 40 (which is what I need). The drives all have little stickers on saying "Quad density" though (which always implies to me 80-track, but maybe to Tandon it means 40 track but you have the luxury of two sides :) cheers J. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 13:55:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:55:25 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM100-2A drives In-Reply-To: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4633362D.22484.23BBEC5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2007 at 12:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know if these are 40 or 80 cylinder? Google seems to suggest that > they're 40 (which is what I need). The drives all have little stickers on > saying "Quad density" though (which always implies to me 80-track, but maybe > to Tandon it means 40 track but you have the luxury of two sides :) IIRC, the -4A was the 96 tpi version and the -2 was 48 tpi. The -4M is 100 tpi. I suppose it's possible that someone's replaced the positioner on these. Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Sat Apr 28 14:13:48 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:13:48 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1177787628.11601.69.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > So, if you disable PAM and just get na MS-DOS screen, what you're saying > is that the screen is mostly white, with black blocks where the prompt > would be ? THat's really strange... You have it... Yeah, I thought it was strange, too. > > > Boy do you need the schmatics! I've looked at the 150 'Video Alpha > > > Display Sybsystem' and the overall design is what you'd expect, but the > > > details are odd. And I susepct it's one of those odd bits that's causing > > > the problems > > > > > > Yeah. Most problems I've seen with computers, > > probably more than three quarters, do NOT need schematics to solve. > > Ypu're lucky (or I'm stupid). Most of the time I find I do need > schematics Dunno... Is working on mostly the same type of equipment lucky? If so, I am. I just get familiar with the "top ten" failures, and often know about them. I worked for a while repairing warehouse robots. They communicated with the central computer via a serial signal imposed on the A.C. mains. That meant that they used optical isolators to keep the A.C. out of the computer itself. When an I/O board would come in that couldn't talk via serial, I'd just pull the optical isolators, and replace them. Those chips were very cheap. Nine times out of ten, or better, that got it. No magic, no special luck, no great talent, just experience. > > > OK, the basic dsegin is a CRT controller -- here an SMC9007 (U315) which > > > addreeses the video RAM. The output of the video RAM is 16 bits wide > > > (character and attrboutes), the character part -- 10 bits of it -- goes > > > to the address lines of a character generator ROM U512. The output of > > > that goes to a shift register (U511 and U612, 'S195) which does the > > > obvious dot serialisation. > > > > > > The attribute logic is compiclated, but based round a 16L6 HAL (mask > > > programmed PAL) U314. I do _not_ have the PAL equatiuons. The outputs of > > > that are latced (U614, '174) and feed the 'Dot Stream Mixer', a 'S153 mux > > > which combines the alpha dots and the graphics system dots, and which > > > then produses the Full Brightness and Half Brightness signals to the > > > 'Sweep' (monitor) PCB. > > > > > > Just from the symptoms, I'd bet a reasonable meal on the S153 mux. > > I wouldn't. I'd want to go back a stage to that dot-expansion logic I > mentioned later. I think, if that was malfucntioning, it could hold the > dotstram line to that 'S153 in either state. Maybe you should bet me. I say that because nothing is half-bright, it's all off or full. Also, NO dots. The dots and the brightness only come together in the mixer... no? > I can't see how the 'S153 would slow the signal down sufficiently to > remove all the character pattern data. Slow down? How about a burnt-out amp in the mixer that is not passing the dot data? > > The calibration of the crystal oscillator takes about three days to > > do correctly, and stays within tolerance for about 15 months, if I > > remember the data correctly. You'd be disappointed by the rubidium beam > > frequency reference, however. It drifts, too, albeit not quite as fast > > I am suprised. What on earth is the mechanism for that, Sorry... beyond the scope of my education... > and how do you adjust it. Likewise. > What actually controls the frequency of the Rb beam standard, > and how does it drift EVERY frequency drifts. The question is: How much, and how repeatably? (or, maybe that's two questions....) As far as I know, there's no way to adjust the Rb beam. A beam of electrons is deflected by electronics, and hits a target. The frequency of the adjusting signal is "tuned" to keep the beam spot on the target. The Rb standards were a couple of orders of magnitude less stable than the Cs standards. Again, I don't know why, I just know WHAT. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From whipaway at yahoo.com Fri Apr 27 21:00:20 2007 From: whipaway at yahoo.com (Whipaway) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ET-3400 ROM adapter Message-ID: <921588.80116.qm@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Someone was looking for the ET-3400 ROM adapter, See http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ROM_Emulator/UsersGuide.pdf Be careful, it looks like pin 11 (CS1) has been masked to be active low, so use the spare gate on the 7420 as an inverter. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From jimmi at satlantic.com Sat Apr 28 11:02:26 2007 From: jimmi at satlantic.com (Jimmi Foesenek) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:02:26 -0300 Subject: HP54615B powersupply? Message-ID: <46337012.9050906@satlantic.com> hello. did you ever fix this scope? james From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 28 14:31:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:31:35 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM100-2A drives In-Reply-To: <4633362D.22484.23BBEC5D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> <4633362D.22484.23BBEC5D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4633A117.4040103@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > IIRC, the -4A was the 96 tpi version and the -2 was 48 tpi. The -4M > is 100 tpi. I suppose it's possible that someone's replaced the > positioner on these. Thanks... and could be. I guess I'll just have to try stepping it and see what happens! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 28 14:48:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:48:49 -0400 Subject: Good news: The MSCP SCSI 1.2 board booted VMS6.1 CD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FFD3CDF-C0DE-4138-BA5B-385151F1D69B@neurotica.com> On Apr 27, 2007, at 6:34 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > Good news! > Minutes ago the MSCP SCSI 1.2 board booted VMS6.1 CD. > It booted to a $ prompt and I did not know what to do next. > > It is a pity that I left my camera in my office and could not > record this > moment. > :) WOOHOOOO! This is fantastic news!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 28 15:07:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:07:03 -0400 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <20070428090130.H37130@plum.flirble.org> References: <200704280522.l3S5MabF012608@floodgap.com> <20070428090130.H37130@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <5F7B16C9-F37B-4CEA-BEDB-96ECE24D6AFF@neurotica.com> On Apr 28, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Andrew Back wrote: >>>> Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the >>>> trash. It's my >>>> bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of >>>> crap the >>>> Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. >>> >>> Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- >>> serviceable components inside"? ;-) >> >> No, it just doesn't say much of anything. >> >> I have never met a machine more impossible to get into for its size. > > For your next torture, I mean task, try getting the lid back on a > VAXstation 2000. *twitch* *twitch* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 28 15:36:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandon TM100-2A drives In-Reply-To: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070428132751.N23508@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know if these are 40 or 80 cylinder? Google seems to suggest that > they're 40 (which is what I need). TM100-2 [with or without A] is 40 cylinder 2 sided; what is commonly being referred to as "360K". And, in fact, IBM used them. > The drives all have little stickers on > saying "Quad density" though (which always implies to me 80-track, but maybe > to Tandon it means 40 track but you have the luxury of two sides :) 80 cylinder 2 side is TM100-4. TM100-4M is 100 tpi, insteap of 96tpi. I don't recall Tandon EVER EVER using the phrase "Quad density". To most people, "Quad density" means 80 cylinder 2 sides. BUT, . . . Intertec (Superbrain) used "double density" to refer to their MFM 1 sided 40 track. When they went to DSDD (40 cylinder 2 side MFM), they called that "Quad density"! Could those stickers have come from them, or somebody similar? And later, when the3y went to 96tpi DSDD (80 cylinder 2 side MFM), they called that "SUPER density" ("SD"!!!!). What is the next size of olives? One MAJOR caveat. When drives were "repaired" by third party board swappers, they sometimes ended up with the wrong designators. SO, it COULD BE TM100-4. I have some 100-4M (Micropolis compatible 100tpi, instead of 96tpi) that are labelled 100-4, instead of 100-4M. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 28 15:39:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:39:02 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177787628.11601.69.camel@linux.site> References: <1177787628.11601.69.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <60EE7EE6-76FB-4B21-9F10-B89AD91EB0EF@neurotica.com> On Apr 28, 2007, at 3:13 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > EVERY frequency drifts. The question is: How much, and how > repeatably? (or, maybe that's two questions....) > > As far as I know, there's no way to adjust the Rb beam. A beam of > electrons is deflected by electronics, and hits a target. The > frequency > of the adjusting signal is "tuned" to keep the beam spot on the > target. > The Rb standards were a couple of orders of magnitude less stable than > the Cs standards. Again, I don't know why, I just know WHAT. That is nowhere near how a rubidium oscillator works. Actually, it sorta describes how a cesium oscillator works, but not quite...the beam in a Cs oscillator is a beam of Cs-133 atoms, not electrons, and the beam is steered magnetically, not electrically. A rubidium oscillator servo-controls its frequency around the opacity/transparency of a glass cell containing Rb-87 in a gaseous state. Drift in this system is primarily a function of impurities from the glass envelope contaminating the cell over very long periods of time, and to a much greater extent, degradation of the lamp used to illuminate the sensor on the other side of the cell. Fortunately the lamps are easily replaced in most designs. In practice, Rb oscillators are very long-lived devices, in terms of both functionality and stability. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 28 15:44:28 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <200704280522.l3S5MabF012608@floodgap.com> References: <200704280522.l3S5MabF012608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070428134338.O24242@shell.lmi.net> > Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- > serviceable components inside"? ;-) those stickers are usually there for the sole purpose of hiding additional screws From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 28 15:48:03 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:48:03 -0300 Subject: Junkbox CP/M system? References: <0JGY0073OIPU25QE@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <002701c78627$5f1f6cd0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><462D3028.27332.C347AD3@cclist.sydex.com> <011601c78952$6f6d8300$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <05f801c789d6$e117aba0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I've heard about "IDA", is it commercial or freeware (I suspect the > former)? Comercial and expensive. But a hell of a tool! > I did post them on my website at the time....another thing I should pull > of those drives and put back online! Nice! Greetz Alexandre http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 28 16:09:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <20070428134338.O24242@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Apr 28, 7 01:44:28 pm" Message-ID: <200704282109.l3SL9cEh014032@floodgap.com> > > Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- > > serviceable components inside"? ;-) > > those stickers are usually there for the sole purpose of hiding additional > screws Well, they got one of those, but *that* was fairly obvious. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's a big old goofy world. -- John Prine ---------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 16:21:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: <1177787628.11601.69.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 28, 7 03:13:48 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So, if you disable PAM and just get na MS-DOS screen, what you're saying > > is that the screen is mostly white, with black blocks where the prompt > > would be ? THat's really strange... > > > You have it... Yeah, I thought it was strange, too. One quick question. You replaced the real-time-clock battery, didn't you. IIRC, that's physically on the video PCB. Is it possible the video PCB is not correctly seated in the backplane (well 'frontplane' in the HP manual) > Dunno... Is working on mostly the same type of equipment lucky? If MAybe. But then I've worked on many HP98x0 machines. All had the same fault -- no display. And yet it wasn't a common fault, or even always on the same PCB. I've had defecty carry FFs, dead shift registers in the M (memroy address) register, dead flip-flops on the I/O PCB, a cracked clock crystal (!), and so on. That's when you need scheamtics// > so, I am. I just get familiar with the "top ten" failures, and often 'Lucky Dip' sericing may work most of the time, and it may save time when it does, but IMHO three is _no_ substitute for actually tracing the fault and curing it. Particularly in your own classic computers (where there isn't the pressure to get the thing runing again by yesterday) > > > Just from the symptoms, I'd bet a reasonable meal on the S153 mux. > > > > I wouldn't. I'd want to go back a stage to that dot-expansion logic I > > mentioned later. I think, if that was malfucntioning, it could hold the > > dotstram line to that 'S153 in either state. > > > Maybe you should bet me. I say that because nothing is > half-bright, it's all off or full. Also, NO dots. The dots and the > brightness only come together in the mixer... no? One side of the 'S153 drives the half-bright siganl, the other side drives the full-bright signal. They have common inputs and (of course) select lines. Which half is enabled is determined by the intensify line (the 2 eneables to th 'S153 are linked to a 'S04 inverter so that only one half is enabled at a time -- either full bright or half bright). When the machine is working correclty, the half-bright and full-bright signals can therefore never occur simultaneously. I have no idea what the video board shows if they are both asserted at the same time. > > > > > I can't see how the 'S153 would slow the signal down sufficiently to > > remove all the character pattern data. > > > Slow down? How about a burnt-out amp in the mixer that is not > passing the dot data? Yes, but then why do spaces look different from all other characters? [Rb beam frequncy standards] > > What actually controls the frequency of the Rb beam standard, > > and how does it drift > > > EVERY frequency drifts. The question is: How much, and how > repeatably? (or, maybe that's two questions....) > > As far as I know, there's no way to adjust the Rb beam. A beam of > electrons is deflected by electronics, and hits a target. The frequency > of the adjusting signal is "tuned" to keep the beam spot on the target. > The Rb standards were a couple of orders of magnitude less stable than > the Cs standards. Again, I don't know why, I just know WHAT. Sure. But it was my impression that if you got a signal from a beam standard, and if the circuitry was 'locked' (rather like a PLL locking), then it was on-frequency. In other words, if it was working (and there were ways to tall if it was locked), then it was accurate. I can beleive there are adjustments to get it to lock. But I am suprised there's one that controls the output frequency. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Apr 28 18:36:05 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:36:05 +0100 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: <83BDDF4D-61A9-46EB-B993-8AD946B2A5B4@neurotica.com> References: <83BDDF4D-61A9-46EB-B993-8AD946B2A5B4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4633DA65.1000803@gifford.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 27, 2007, at 6:11 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> I am thinking of compiling a list of objects or instruments or >> whatever from the early days that included a microprocessor, > > I believe the ProLog M900 EPROM programmer is built around a 4040, > isn't it? I have a Stag PPZ Universal PROM programmer that has a 6809 in it. There's a photo of it here: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/inst.htm#PPZ -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 28 18:55:58 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:55:58 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue Message-ID: <4633DF0E.1010703@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/recomp/pics From wizard at voyager.net Sat Apr 28 19:10:58 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:10:58 -0400 Subject: HP-150 MS-DOS Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1177805458.11601.90.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 22:21 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > So, if you disable PAM and just get na MS-DOS screen, what you're saying > > > is that the screen is mostly white, with black blocks where the prompt > > > would be ? THat's really strange... > > > > > > You have it... Yeah, I thought it was strange, too. > > One quick question. You replaced the real-time-clock battery, didn't you. > IIRC, that's physically on the video PCB. Is it possible the video PCB is > not correctly seated in the backplane (well 'frontplane' in the HP manual) I'm away from the HP-150 for a couple days. I will certainly check that, first thing, when I see it again. I certainly hope you've guessed it right on this. What a lovely problem THAT would be to fix.00 > > Dunno... Is working on mostly the same type of equipment lucky? If > > MAybe. > > But then I've worked on many HP98x0 machines. All had the same fault -- > no display. And yet it wasn't a common fault, or even always on the same > PCB. I've had defecty carry FFs, dead shift registers in the M (memroy > address) register, dead flip-flops on the I/O PCB, a cracked clock > crystal (!), and so on. That's when you need scheamtics// > > > so, I am. I just get familiar with the "top ten" failures, and often > > 'Lucky Dip' sericing may work most of the time, and it may save time when > it does, but IMHO three is _no_ substitute for actually tracing the fault > and curing it. Particularly in your own classic computers (where there > isn't the pressure to get the thing runing again by yesterday) Oh, sure, but, in any case, I've generally found that a functional understanding of the boards involved usually gives one a good idea for a couple "Easter Eggs" to try, often with cheap parts, to try for a schematic-free solution. Obviously, some problems are resistant to this kind of solution. Also, sometimes the most likely "Easter Eggs" involve expensive parts, and I want to be sure before I lay down some real cash. Still, I'd say most problems can be solved, rather quickly, without a schematic. On the other hand, if I'm able to contact you, and you have one, that is almost as good as having one myself... assuming I don't cheese you off somehow. > > Slow down? How about a burnt-out amp in the mixer that is not > > passing the dot data? > > Yes, but then why do spaces look different from all other characters? They don't. It is as if all characters were spaces. > Sure. But it was my impression that if you got a signal from a beam > standard, and if the circuitry was 'locked' (rather like a PLL locking), > then it was on-frequency. In other words, if it was working (and there > were ways to tall if it was locked), then it was accurate. I was using my knowledge of Cs standards for this, which has been corrected by Dave McGuire. (Thanks Dave!) Sorry. My bad. I assumed they functioned similarly. Since it's a different process, and we didn't use them, I don't know how they work, and should probably add a period to this text, and quit typing. > I can beleive there are adjustments to get it to lock. But I am suprised > there's one that controls the output frequency. That's the WAY a Cs standard works... The electronic oscillator's frequency is minutely adjusted to keep the Cs beam on target. The adjustments are tiny, and keeping them in range means that the oscillator's drift is being canceled by the adjustments by the PLL obtained through aiming the Cs beam correctly. Within a small range, the circuitry keeps adjusting the frequency to aim the beam, thus ensuring that any normal drift is compensated. On the HP models, the Cs Beam Frequency Reference has a meter that shows where the "range" sits. Occasionally, the "coarse" adjustments are changed, in order to keep the current level of adjustment at about the center of the range over which the electronics can lock. And, yes, as long as the PLL is maintained, the accuracy is maintained. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rickb at bensene.com Sat Apr 28 20:18:29 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:18:29 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue In-Reply-To: <4633DF0E.1010703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Absolutely fantastic! Any signs of the console typewriter or other peripherals? What's the story behind the rescue? Great photos! Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From rcini at optonline.net Sat Apr 28 22:07:10 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:07:10 -0400 Subject: MPX-16 stuff found Message-ID: All: While moving things around in the shop, I came across an envelope containing some floppy disks for the Micromint MPX-16. These disks include the source code for the ROM BIOS and an apparently unreleased copy of MS-DOS 1.25. I posted copies of these on the My Documents page of my Highgate site. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 28 22:40:10 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:40:10 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue Message-ID: <4634139A.10704@bitsavers.org> > Any signs of the console typewriter or other peripherals? no. will do some more digging but they may have been accidentally discarded about 10 years ago. > What's the story behind the rescue? History San Jose was selling off some of the Perham collection today, mostly old VTRs and some radio stuff. Got a call that there were two KSR 35s, one of which we identified as the console from the SDS 930, and an ASR 33 out there, so I drove down to retrieve them. When I got there, the RECOMP was on the pallet next to one of the 35s. I'm going to try to set up a time to go through the computer stuff to try to find the rest, but I'm not hopeful, since I don't recall seeing the desk or typewriter. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 22:43:38 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:43:38 -0700 Subject: Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com> Anyone have Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? Is a 460VR the same thing as a SA460? The drive in my Intel iPDS says Model No. 460VR. Could it be functionally replaced by an original IBM PC full height 5.25 drive? The drive from the iPDS has jumpers on both DS1 and DS4 installed. I wonder why that is? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 23:31:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:31:10 -0700 Subject: Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4633BD1E.8254.9F0081@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2007 at 20:43, Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone have Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? Is a 460VR the same thing as > a SA460? The drive in my Intel iPDS says Model No. 460VR. Could it > be functionally replaced by an original IBM PC full height 5.25 drive? > > The drive from the iPDS has jumpers on both DS1 and DS4 installed. I > wonder why that is? Herb Johnson has 460 OEM docs. From what I do remember, the 460 is a 96 tpi drive (720K), which means that you're not going to be able to replace it with a FH SA450 (360K) drive. Heaven only knows what the suffix means--could be a variation on the face plate or could mean something like a head-load solenoid and/or door lock. If you don't see evidence of either, try a plain old 720K drive of any size (e.g. 3.5"). Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Sun Apr 29 00:15:33 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:15:33 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue In-Reply-To: <4634139A.10704@bitsavers.org> References: <4634139A.10704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al K. wrote: > When I got there, the RECOMP > was on the pallet next to one of the 35s. I read something on the RECOMP I that it also had the ability to talk to a "Teletype" device. Wonder if one of the 35's may have been connected to the RECOMP I. Even if the console typewriter can't be found, this is still an amazing find. The disk-based fixed head main memory on the RECOMP machines is pretty unique, and has a lot of history behind it (including earlier digital differential analyzers and easlier computers by Autonetics. I also believe that there's a power supply unit that is separate from the logic box. When scorounging around, you might want to keep an eye out for that. -Rick From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 00:33:46 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:33:46 -0700 Subject: Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? In-Reply-To: <4633BD1E.8254.9F0081@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com> <4633BD1E.8254.9F0081@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704282233x65d71548ra865aeca6a1b317e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/28/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Herb Johnson has 460 OEM docs. From what I do remember, the 460 is a > 96 tpi drive (720K), which means that you're not going to be able to > replace it with a FH SA450 (360K) drive. > Sure enough, the iPDS User's Guide lists the describes the format as: Tracks/Disk 80 Sectors/Track 32 (16 on side 0, 16 on side 1) Sectors/Disk 2560 Bytes/Sector 256 Bytes/Disk 655,360 TPI 96 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 01:46:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:46:44 -0700 Subject: Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90704282233x65d71548ra865aeca6a1b317e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com>, <4633BD1E.8254.9F0081@cclist.sydex.com>, <1e1fc3e90704282233x65d71548ra865aeca6a1b317e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4633DCE4.30424.11B1F06@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2007 at 22:33, Glen Slick wrote: > Sure enough, the iPDS User's Guide lists the describes the format as: > Tracks/Disk 80 I'm looking at the iPDS prints on Bitsavers and it looks as if a head load signal is asserted on pin 4 of J3, so I wonder if your -RV drive has a head-load solenoid. Motor on is supplied through an 8255A and the prints show 2 and 34 on J3 to be NC, so you don't need to provide a "ready" signal. In any case, a plain old 5.25" 720K drive should work just fine. Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Apr 29 02:33:04 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:33:04 +0200 Subject: TX-8 TXi-16 References: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com>, <4633BD1E.8254.9F0081@cclist.sydex.com>, <1e1fc3e90704282233x65d71548ra865aeca6a1b317e@mail.gmail.com> <4633DCE4.30424.11B1F06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000601c78a30$9fd52dc0$2101a8c0@finans> Hi all Last week I got a message from one of the list members, asking for the software I have for the mentioned Pertec adapters. I asked him to mail me a week later, as I was out of town, so I wouldnt forget it. So, could you please mail me again ? Nico From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 28 15:11:29 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:11:29 -0400 Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine Message-ID: <0JH800CR45D1L284@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: Jim Battle > Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:46:08 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >woodelf wrote: >> Allison wrote: >> >>> You have to be kidding me. All you need is a 2764 and a programmer. >>> It's a ROM and the pattern is in the manual, what could be easier? >>> Actually if someone were building I'd suggest using a 2764 over the >>> part used on the VDM1 as that was a two or three voltage part and >>> 27C64(or even a 27C256) is common as flies plus lower power. >> >> Well if I still had the manual let alone the the VDM ... :( > >The ROM images are available as C character stucts in my Solace >emulator. According to the manual, the Sol was sold with two different >characters sets (I don't know if that is true or not). Both are >available at: > > http://www.sol20.org/solace.html > >Download the source. Look in charset_6574.c and charset_6575.c The answer is true. the difference in the charsets is what the non-ascii mapped chars look like. (symboles and arrows and other neat glyphs.). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 28 15:13:15 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:13:15 -0400 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. Message-ID: <0JH800LTJ5FZH7E3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. > From: Cameron Kaiser > Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:22:36 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my >> > bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the >> > Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. >> >> Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- >> serviceable components inside"? ;-) > >No, it just doesn't say much of anything. > >I have never met a machine more impossible to get into for its size. > Five gets you 10 there is a hidden screw under a foot or behind a label. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 28 15:14:58 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:14:58 -0400 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. Message-ID: <0JH800BB45IUZ5B6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. > From: Andrew Back > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 09:02:22 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, 27 Apr 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>> Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my >>>> bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the >>>> Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. >>> >>> Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- >>> serviceable components inside"? ;-) >> >> No, it just doesn't say much of anything. >> >> I have never met a machine more impossible to get into for its size. > >For your next torture, I mean task, try getting the lid back on a >VAXstation 2000. > >Andrew I dont know I have two and also two of the same box with TK50 in them. Once you know the incantation it's easy. Allison From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 29 04:47:55 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:47:55 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors In-Reply-To: <011501c78952$6f3de780$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <011501c78952$6f3de780$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <463469CB.4080405@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/04/2007 05:18, Ensor wrote: > Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 Second > Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? Actualy, it's a 3MHz 65C02. > Did Acorn ever release a "cheese-wedge" 65c02 or 65816? See above :-) >? Also, is it > possible to replace the 6502 in one of these with a 65c02; not that I'd > actually try it, unless the 6502 was socketed, but I recall having BIG > problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running a 65c02 in > a Model B sometime in the early 90's? I can't think why -- it's a drop-in replacement and lots of people have done it. Sometimes you need to change the 74LS245 data bus buffer that's near the 6502 to get best results, but usually only if a Second Processor unit is involved. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 29 06:24:40 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 06:24:40 -0500 Subject: Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704291026.l3TAQTOO025094@hosting.monisys.ca> > Anyone have Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? Is a 460VR the same thing as > a SA460? The drive in my Intel iPDS says Model No. 460VR. Could it > be functionally replaced by an original IBM PC full height 5.25 drive? > > The drive from the iPDS has jumpers on both DS1 and DS4 installed. I > wonder why that is? I don't know what the "VR" means, but an SA460 is a 80 track (96tpi) drive - you won't be able to replace it with a PC 48 tpi drive (normally a SA-450 or TM-100-2) - you will need something like an SA-450 or a TM-100-4 (both full height), or Teac FD-55F (1/2 height). These drives can be tougher to find than 48 tpi drives - If you don't turn one up you can modify many PC/AT HD drives to opperate as an 80 track DD drive - you need to switch the speed to 300rpm (I've got info on my site about doing this), and make sure the density select is tied off for "low density". Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 29 06:24:40 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 06:24:40 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM100-2A drives In-Reply-To: <4633842D.3040805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200704291026.l3TAQTOQ025094@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Does anyone know if these are 40 or 80 cylinder? Google seems to suggest that > they're 40 (which is what I need). The drives all have little stickers on > saying "Quad density" though (which always implies to me 80-track, but maybe > to Tandon it means 40 track but you have the luxury of two sides :) A -2 should be a 40 track (48tpi) drive. The -4 would have been the 80 track (96tpi) drive - unless it's a -4M which iirc is 100tpi. If it hasn't fallen off, the Tandon drives have a little sticker up under the door opener handle - open the doot, then look up from the front bottom of the drive - inside the handle you may find a sticker reading "48 tpi" or "96 tpi". The term "quad density" was used by some people to describe a Double-Sided, Double-Densoty drive (4 times as much storage as a SSSD drive) - NorthStar used to describes their DSDD drives as "quad density" even though they were only 48tpi. Easy way to tell for sure - hook it up to your imagedisk machine, then gointo the "Align/test" function and step to track 40 - if the head travels the whole distance, the drive is 40 track - if it only goes 1/2 way, it's 80 track. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Apr 29 06:21:47 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3420 drives Message-ID: <763905.37041.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Remember the pair of IBM 3420s that showed up on eBay a few weeks ago? The fellow that bought them sent me an email offering to sell them. If anyone here is suffering from "non-bidders remorse" for passing them up, please let me know ASAP and I'll put you in touch with him. --Bill From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 08:54:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:54:47 -0400 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent Message-ID: <4634A3A7.8010202@gmail.com> I hope everyone came through alright. Is anyone on the list from Folkestone? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 10:15:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:15:14 -0700 Subject: Silly BSD questions Message-ID: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> For the life of me, I can't figure this one out and I feel so stupid... Maybe a kindly BSD expert can clear my poor addled brain. 1. How does one LIST the contents (i.e. the files) on a volume create by 4.2BSD backup? I don't want to restore them, just list them. Lengths and dates would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. 2. How does one restore the contents of the said level 0 backup volume a local directory? That is, the original was almost certainly backup up starting with /, but I don't want to overwrite my own file system with restored data. Sorry for being so dense this morning, but I can't make heads or tails out of how one might do this using restore. Tar and cpio are easy, but backup/restore has me in a high state of confusion. Thanks, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 29 10:59:55 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:59:55 -0500 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4634C0FB.1020900@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For the life of me, I can't figure this one out and I feel so > stupid... Maybe a kindly BSD expert can clear my poor addled brain. > > 1. How does one LIST the contents (i.e. the files) on a volume create > by 4.2BSD backup? I don't want to restore them, just list them. > Lengths and dates would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. Probably "restore -t -f archive". I don't have any BSD handy ATM but AIX does it thusly.... > 2. How does one restore the contents of the said level 0 backup > volume a local directory? That is, the original was almost certainly > backup up starting with /, but I don't want to overwrite my own file > system with restored data. Modern restore always backs up relative to the CWD. Getting the TOC listing will tell you for sure. > Sorry for being so dense this morning, but I can't make heads or > tails out of how one might do this using restore. Tar and cpio are > easy, but backup/restore has me in a high state of confusion. Not nearly as consistent across platforms and time as the others. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 11:15:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:15:19 -0400 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4634C497.1030802@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For the life of me, I can't figure this one out and I feel so > stupid... Maybe a kindly BSD expert can clear my poor addled brain. > > 1. How does one LIST the contents (i.e. the files) on a volume create > by 4.2BSD backup? I don't want to restore them, just list them. > Lengths and dates would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. This I might not be able to answer, since I can't verify whether my knowledge is "current" as of 4.2BSD. It's probably relevant only to newer versions of BSD. > 2. How does one restore the contents of the said level 0 backup > volume a local directory? That is, the original was almost certainly > backup up starting with /, but I don't want to overwrite my own file > system with restored data. Run it chrooted? Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 11:30:44 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:30:44 -0700 Subject: Shugart 460VR / SA460 docs? In-Reply-To: <200704291026.l3TAQTOO025094@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <1e1fc3e90704282043n6e43d789y481155d391c52bb@mail.gmail.com> <200704291026.l3TAQTOO025094@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90704290930q44abfa09xbdc397135db74f@mail.gmail.com> On 4/29/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I don't know what the "VR" means, but an SA460 is a 80 track (96tpi) > drive - you won't be able to replace it with a PC 48 tpi drive (normally > a SA-450 or TM-100-2) - you will need something like an SA-450 or a > TM-100-4 (both full height), or Teac FD-55F (1/2 height). > > These drives can be tougher to find than 48 tpi drives - If you don't > turn one up you can modify many PC/AT HD drives to opperate as an 80 > track DD drive - you need to switch the speed to 300rpm (I've got info > on my site about doing this), and make sure the density select is tied > off for "low density". > Next time I'm at one of the local PC recycle stores I'll see if I can pickup up some cheap 1.2MB drives and try the 360->300 conversion. That's probably easier than trying to find good working FH or HH 720KB 5.25 drives without paying too much. -Glen From rickb at bensene.com Sun Apr 29 11:42:25 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:42:25 -0700 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: 1. How does one LIST the contents (i.e. the files) on a volume create by 4.2BSD backup? I don't want to restore them, just list them. Lengths and dates would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. # restore -tvf [tape device/file with backup image] The -t option says to list the able of contents. The -v option says do so verbosely. The -f option specifies that the file or device for the backup follows. 2. How does one restore the contents of the said level 0 backup volume a local directory? That is, the original was almost certainly backup up starting with /, but I don't want to overwrite my own file system with restored data. If you want to restore the whole thing to a local directory, do a mkdir to make an empty directory, use "cd" to change into that directory, then issue # restore -xf [tape device/file with backup image] If you want to see a listing of the files as they are being restored, add a "v" option, e.g. restore -xvf [dev/file]. If you want to restore individual files within the backup, you can use the nteractive mode to specify files: # restore -ivf [dev/file] This gives you a simple command shell that you can use to explore the backup, and mark files for recovery, then one command which causes the recovery of the files marked. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 11:56:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:56:52 -0700 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com> Thanks, guys! I'm off to try this...wish me luck--the backup was created with one of those "special" versions of 4.2BSD, called, I think, UTek. So I've got my fingers crossed. Only peripherally related, I asked Imation about replacement tension belts for DC600A's. They responded that they'll try to find something that will work, but that this is the first time that they've ever had such a request. I find that incredible. Cheers, Chuck On 29 Apr 2007 at 9:42, Rick Bensene wrote: > > 1. How does one LIST the contents (i.e. the files) on a volume create > by 4.2BSD backup? I don't want to restore them, just list them. > Lengths and dates would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. > > # restore -tvf [tape device/file with backup image] > The -t option says to list the able of contents. The -v option says > do so verbosely. The -f option specifies that the file or device for > the backup follows. > > 2. How does one restore the contents of the said level 0 backup > volume a local directory? That is, the original was almost > certainly > backup up starting with /, but I don't want to overwrite my own file > system with restored data. > > If you want to restore the whole thing to a local directory, do a mkdir > to make an empty directory, use "cd" to change into that directory, then > issue > # restore -xf [tape device/file with backup image] > > If you want to see a listing of the files as they are being restored, > add a "v" option, e.g. restore -xvf [dev/file]. If you want to restore > individual files within the backup, you can use the nteractive mode > to specify files: > > # restore -ivf [dev/file] > > This gives you a simple command shell that you can use to explore the > backup, and mark files for recovery, then one command which causes the > recovery of the files marked. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 12:23:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MPX-16 stuff found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <198696.66775.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> yo cool. Now just find me the box dude ;). And why weren't you at TCF yesterday??? You totally missed the best knock down drag out brawl between me and E.K. --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > While moving things around in the shop, I came > across an envelope > containing some floppy disks for the Micromint > MPX-16. These disks include > the source code for the ROM BIOS and an apparently > unreleased copy of MS-DOS > 1.25. > > I posted copies of these on the My Documents > page of my Highgate site. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Apr 29 12:27:15 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:27:15 -0700 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Sun\, 29 Apr 2007 08\:15\:14 -0700") References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200704291727.l3THRFoC044555@lots.reanimators.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For the life of me, I can't figure this one out and I feel so > stupid... Maybe a kindly BSD expert can clear my poor addled brain. > > 1. How does one LIST the contents (i.e. the files) on a volume create > by 4.2BSD backup? I don't want to restore them, just list them. > Lengths and dates would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. restore tvf device-file ...where device-file is the tape device file or filename containing the dump(8) output. > 2. How does one restore the contents of the said level 0 backup > volume a local directory? That is, the original was almost certainly > backup up starting with /, but I don't want to overwrite my own file > system with restored data. The filenames on the dump are relative to the start of their filesystem but generally don't include the leading /. And restore restores to the directory that is current when it is run (e.g. the freshly newfs'd filesystem on the replacing disk). So. Make a new directory somewhere that you've got enough room to load the whole thing, cd to it, run "restore rf device-file" (or flags/key "rvf" if you want something to read while it works) to restore the dump. -Frank McConnell From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 14:22:44 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 Message-ID: <632539.92621.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I obtained one of these at a computer show yesterday. I was told that the 3" disks are still available in the UK. Is this so? This page: http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Unix/Joyce/ states that there is a "hideous hybrid" of an upgrade that effectively turns it into an PEECEE/AT. I demand to know where I can find one. And I was aware that Mallard as in Mallard BASIC was a reference to a steam engine, cuz I'm shmott. I almost got my fingers on a "TT scale" version in kit form, but I decided not to because it wasn't after all real TT scale, but rather a decadent hideous hybrid. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 29 14:23:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:23:47 -0500 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4634F0C3.7040101@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Thanks, guys! I'm off to try this...wish me luck--the backup was > created with one of those "special" versions of 4.2BSD, called, I > think, UTek. Oh... now you have my attention. Is there likely to be anything interesting on the backup? I've got a Tektronix XD88 graphical UNIX workstation stashed over at the museum which runs UTek. (That also means that if you run into problems, shout - as assuming the system still powers up, I can always rustle up some man pages) The OS wasn't half bad - and was complete enough for me to get a more modern version of the GNU toolset built on it, plus a few apps for demo-type stuff (Fractint, POV etc.) By coincidence I was contacted a few days ago by an engineer who worked on the design of the XD88 - he had some interesting tales to tell about Tektronix's terminal-oriented management at the company during those years! cheers Jules From rcini at optonline.net Sun Apr 29 14:31:11 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:31:11 -0400 Subject: MPX-16 stuff found In-Reply-To: <198696.66775.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I actually had a complete working system for a while. It used two 360k FH floppy drives and a standard flat Astec switching power supply. The case was cheesy, though (no offense). Very thin metal; not as sturdy as the PC but very hobbyist-friendly (totally screw-together). I have a second MPX16 board here but I've never been able to get it to work so I've left it for dead. Any YouTube video of the brawl? On 4/29/07 1:23 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > yo cool. Now just find me the box dude ;). And why > weren't you at TCF yesterday??? You totally missed the > best knock down drag out brawl between me and E.K. > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > >> All: >> >> While moving things around in the shop, I came >> across an envelope >> containing some floppy disks for the Micromint >> MPX-16. These disks include >> the source code for the ROM BIOS and an apparently >> unreleased copy of MS-DOS >> 1.25. >> >> I posted copies of these on the My Documents >> page of my Highgate site. >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 14:44:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:44:07 -0700 Subject: Silly BSD questions In-Reply-To: <4634F0C3.7040101@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4634F0C3.7040101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46349317.31949.3E2D330@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2007 at 14:23, Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh... now you have my attention. Is there likely to be anything interesting on > the backup? Probably, but I'm not at liberty to disclose. :( i did get a few UTek man pages and it looks like they padded out a few of the commands quite a bit. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 14:58:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:58:16 -0700 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <632539.92621.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <632539.92621.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46349668.18789.3EFC8A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2007 at 12:22, Chris M wrote: > I obtained one of these at a computer show yesterday. > I was told that the 3" disks are still available in > the UK. Is this so? You might even find some old stock on this side of the pond. They're known as "CF2" floppies and I sometimes see them on ePay. I just picked up a Joyce for the floppy drive. I'll probably scrap the rest of the unit, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the PCW in the US. I do know that people replaced the CF drive with standard 3.5" drives quite often. That may be your best bet if you're interested in running software. IIRC, there was also a Yamaha diskette drive (MDR-1) that hooked to Yamaha organs like the FX-20 that also used them. You can still get them NOS from overseas, but the prices aren't for the squeamish: http://www.clive.nl/detail/24336/ > This page: http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Unix/Joyce/ > states that there is a "hideous hybrid" of an upgrade > that effectively turns it into an PEECEE/AT. I demand > to know where I can find one. Looks a little ridiculous to me--just like that thingummy that fit around the Classic Mac to get you PC capabilities--it cost more than a PC IIRC. I don't remember the name of it. CHeers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 15:17:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <46349668.18789.3EFC8A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <298195.21687.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Looks a little ridiculous to me--just like that > thingummy that fit > around the Classic Mac to get you PC > capabilities--it cost more than > a PC IIRC. I don't remember the name of it. There was also something for the TI 99/4a or whatever it's called. My boss years ago used to bug me incessantly over it, him being unwilling to part with his blessed TI. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 29 15:50:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:50:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <632539.92621.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 29, 7 12:22:44 pm Message-ID: > > I obtained one of these at a computer show yesterday. > I was told that the 3" disks are still available in > the UK. Is this so? I don;t think they're still being made anywhere, but they're not that rare over here. The drive interface signals are much as you'd expect (and it's the standard data rate, 250kbps MFM), so you can link up a 3.5" drive without too much work if you want to. FWIW, I have the service manual for this machine. Like most Amstrad service manuals, it's just the schematics, layouts, and parts lists, but it's a lot more use to me than a boardswapper guide. Let me know if you want me to try to find it and post any specific information (like the drive pinout) > > This page: http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Unix/Joyce/ > states that there is a "hideous hybrid" of an upgrade > that effectively turns it into an PEECEE/AT. I demand > to know where I can find one. That's the first I've heard of it! -tony From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Apr 29 15:56:08 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:56:08 +0100 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <298195.21687.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <298195.21687.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1177880168.6373.5.camel@localhost> > > Looks a little ridiculous to me--just like that > > thingummy that fit > > around the Classic Mac to get you PC > > capabilities--it cost more than > > a PC IIRC. I don't remember the name of it. Dayna MacCharlie is what you are thinking of.. Personally, i like the amstrad pcw's. Sold as a cheap wordprocessor, it also came with cp/m,a strong basic and a dot matrix printer for as little as ?200. Despite the awful monitor, non standard floppy's and lack of standard ports was good value roger From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 16:12:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177880168.6373.5.camel@localhost> References: <298195.21687.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <1177880168.6373.5.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20070429140826.E65962@shell.lmi.net> > > > Looks a little ridiculous to me--just like that > > > thingummy that fit > > > around the Classic Mac to get you PC > > > capabilities--it cost more than > > > a PC IIRC. I don't remember the name of it. > On Sun, 29 Apr 2007, roger pugh wrote: > Dayna MacCharlie is what you are thinking of.. Hang the Mac as a terminal on an Ampro Littleboard, but market it as "a drive for the Mac that gives it PC capabilities". Clever marketing. > Personally, i like the amstrad pcw's. Sold as a cheap wordprocessor, it > also came with cp/m,a strong basic and a dot matrix printer for as > little as ?200. > Despite the awful monitor, non standard floppy's and lack of standard > ports was good value Aww. 3" and 3.25" floppies aren't really "non standard". Try 3.9" From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 29 16:37:16 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:37:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: <4634A3A7.8010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I'm not. I do recall the other minor earthquake that hit the UK about 4 years ok (the epicentre was near Birmingham, UK, if I recall correctly). I hope this doesn't become more frequent, although it isn't totally surprising as the UK is actually moving away from France at something like 1cm a year. I was asleep when it happened (7am BST / 2am EST), but I know some people from work felt the one from a few years ago. The thing that does worry me about earthquakes is the shelves coming down and damaging my computer books, manuals etc. (ok, obviously I don't want to get injured either, but I'm trying to keep this on-topic) I'm not sure we get any earthquake training in schools here, though I think it would be a good idea. We may not get many of them here in the UK, but it would be useful for when people are on holiday in the US or Japan (or anywhere else that gets earthquakes). I recall being told at school (about 12 years ago) that the safest place was in a doorway. Is that still thought to be true? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sridhar Ayengar wrote: I hope everyone came through alright. Is anyone on the list from Folkestone? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 16:59:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070429145359.U65962@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > I hope this doesn't become more frequent, although it isn't totally > surprising as the UK is actually moving away from France at something > like 1cm a year. Ahhh. So, it's politically motivated > The thing that does worry me about earthquakes is the shelves coming > down and damaging my computer books, manuals etc. (ok, obviously I don't > want to get injured either, but I'm trying to keep this on-topic) I have a 5150 with a big dent from a bookcase (containing "Inside Macintosh") coming down on it during Loma Prieta > I'm not sure we get any earthquake training in schools here, though I > think it would be a good idea. We may not get many of them here in the > UK, but it would be useful for when people are on holiday in the US or > Japan (or anywhere else that gets earthquakes). I recall being told at > school (about 12 years ago) that the safest place was in a doorway. Is > that still thought to be true? Inside a large mainframe is best. Doorways and under desks don't work well if they're current flimsy crap. Bathtubs are about the only thing that is still made solidly. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 17:02:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:02:09 -0700 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4634A3A7.8010202@gmail.com>, <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4634B371.2056.46132E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2007 at 22:37, Andrew Burton wrote: > I'm not sure we get any earthquake training in schools here, though I > think it would be a good idea. We may not get many of them here in the > UK, but it would be useful for when people are on holiday in the US or > Japan (or anywhere else that gets earthquakes). I recall being told at > school (about 12 years ago) that the safest place was in a doorway. Is > that still thought to be true? As one who sat in his second-floor office watching the furniture waltz around the room during the Loma Prieta quake in 1989, I'd advise crawling under a desk instead of standing in a doorway. While technically, a doorway offers some structural protection, you're more likely to get hit by objects and window glass flying around the room-- and that 7-foot-tall bookcase is quite apt to fall on you. I managed to get outside sometime just after the main shock wave and was rewarded with seeing ground waves ripple along the ground as if I were on water. Speaking of water, it's a good idea to make sure that your home water heater is firmly strapped to the wall (along with tall bits of furniture). 4.5 probably wouldn't even interrupt mealtime conversation in some California areas. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 17:10:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:10:11 -0700 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177880168.6373.5.camel@localhost> References: <298195.21687.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <1177880168.6373.5.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4634B553.11482.4688C15@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2007 at 21:56, roger pugh wrote: > Dayna MacCharlie is what you are thinking of.. That's it! For *only* somewhere between $1200 and $1800 (1985 dollars), you could have a slow PC that could sort of run PC mono text applications on your Mac. I miss the wackiness of the old PC days when nothing was too silly to get funded. I do recall being taken to lunch sometime in 1984 and being pitched to join a firm back around then. What was carefully fished out of a briefcase was a mock-up of a very small laptop computer--barely big enough in footprint to contain the keys of a keyboard and VERY slim. I was excitedly told that some genius had figured out how to cram the electronics for a PC into it. When I asked where the battery went, I got the reply "we haven't figured that out yet". I passed on the "opportunity" and AFAIK, the venture never went anywhere. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Apr 29 16:40:42 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:40:42 +0100 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> > > I hope everyone came through alright. Is anyone on the list from > Folkestone? Not Folkestone but I felt it just West of Ashford. The joints in the timber framed upper floor made a lot of noise, but nobody downstairs (which is brick built) noticed anything. I had to turn the TV on to confirm it was an earthquake. I'd felt one or two when I was in Cupertino years ago but never expected to feel one in Kent. I think the same 'quake in California would not even get a mention in the news, but our buildings are not designed for them here. From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Apr 29 17:43:30 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:43:30 +0100 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: <4634B371.2056.46132E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4634A3A7.8010202@gmail.com> <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4634B371.2056.46132E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70704291543r5eeaf83j25d623f1ac033b4a@mail.gmail.com> I was here for the Manchester earthquake swarm, late 2002. Not so big as the latest, but more of them! Very eirie, although very little damage, and nothing even fell over for me.. They are more common than we realise, in the UK, but not usually big enough to be noticed. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 17:49:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <4634B553.11482.4688C15@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <404561.62299.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > What > was carefully > fished out of a briefcase was a mock-up of a very > small laptop > computer--barely big enough in footprint to contain > the keys of a > keyboard and VERY slim. Speaking of laptops, and I'm sure I'm drifting off topic here, but anyone familiar with early colorful laptops? One of the first I remember seeing (in a magazine) was probably one of the if not the earliest color laptop. Yep full color lcd, probably sported a 386. Problem was the lcd was only on the order of 3" diagonal! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 17:52:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177880168.6373.5.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- roger pugh wrote: > Personally, i like the amstrad pcw's. Sold as a > cheap wordprocessor, it > also came with cp/m,a strong basic and a dot matrix > printer for as > little as ?200. What do you mean "came with"? On disk, or in rom. Obviously I haven't turned it on yet... Is there software out there? I feel that if it came with all that groovy stuff, I should be entitled to it (even though I ain't got it :). > Despite the awful monitor, that bad? :( and mine came repleat with the printer BTW. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 29 19:03:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:03:45 -0600 Subject: Anyone near Lexington,KY? Rescue these CP/M systems! Message-ID: I'd much rather see this go into the hands of a collector in the area than end up in the hands of the high price reseller "compuermkt". The terminal looks interesting, although the one pictured has a bit of "screen rot". It looks like it might be an OEM'ed Beehive terminal, but its hard to tell without seeing it in person. "Vector" systems are pretty hard to come by as far as CP/M S-100 bus based systems go, but I did have a chance to play with one in 1979/1980. ======== Ebay item # 290109142460 Current bid $50, 1 bidder Lot contains: You are bidding on our years of classic computers. The photos only show 1 Vector MZ, one Vector 4, the NEC printer, and NEC 386 system. The total inventory is listed below. This computer equipment has been used and retired and has been in storage for years. The equipment worked when stored, but current working order is unknown. The keyboard of one of the MZ systems is slightly damaged (broken pieces from the frame around the keyboard. SOLD AS IS! Here is the inventory: 2 - Vector MZ systems with Arabrite software and keyboard (bilingual) 2 - Vector 4 systems 1 - NEC wide carriage impact printer that can do bilingual printing 1 - NEC 386 system with small impact printer 2 - Epson impact printers We are in and out of Lexington, KY where this equipment is stored, so pickup and/or delivery of this lot will need to be arranged, and I cannot garuntee it will be immediately after auction end. If you are interested, please email me so we can arrange a pickup or ship time. ======== -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From grant at stockly.com Sun Apr 29 19:14:04 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:14:04 -0800 Subject: Apple Personal Laserwriter LS Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070429161148.03723fc0@pop.1and1.com> I got an old printer for free. It works, but its printing grey stuff all over the page like there is something wrong with the drum. I ran a few pages through it and it didn't get better. Is there any reasonable way to fix it or should I throw it away? Anyone need any parts if I do have to throw it away? Grant From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 19:27:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone near Lexington,KY? Rescue these CP/M systems! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <810442.84316.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I received and sent out pictures of some of these items to someone on the list (before they hit ebay). One of the vectors seemed to have a cracked screen. Whoever decides to bid should secure a full set of pictures before proceeding to bid. Does compumkt realize he has to pick them up in person??? He lives outside of Binghamton, NY. If someone does secure the lot, I'm interested in one of the 8086 based units if they're interested in parting w/any of it... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 29 19:34:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:34:44 -0600 Subject: Anyone near Lexington,KY? Rescue these CP/M systems! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:27:27 -0700. <810442.84316.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <810442.84316.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Does compumkt realize he has to pick them up in > person??? He lives outside of Binghamton, NY. If you read the description more closely, he is willing to ship for about $50/box at ~6 boxes. computermkt will attempt to resell these for at least $300 ea., which is what he always does: buy systems on ebay for $50 then relist them for $350. They don't seem to sell much, but apparently they sell that way enough for him/she/it/she-it to do it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rickb at bensene.com Sun Apr 29 21:27:33 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:27:33 -0700 Subject: Silly BSD questions (Now Utek) In-Reply-To: <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: There are quite a number of versions of Utek (@&^!&^ Outlook won't let me capitalize the "t"). The first versions were for the National 320xx CPUs. This ran on the 6205's, 6130, and 4132. Later, a Motorola 68000-based verson was released. It ran on the 2nd-generation machines -- I can't remember the model numbers of off the top of my head. These machines came in between the earlier National-based machines, and the XD88 series machines, which were based on the Motorola 88000 CPU. The XD88 machines were quite powerful, and had really nice graphics processors that made things like 3D solids modeling run really nicely. Graphics performance was very high compared to many other vendors at the time. Unfortunately, Tek never really knew how to market computers. The Tek 4051/4052/4054, and to some degree, the Tek 4081, were the only real Tektronix computer products that were market makers. All of the rest realy never did generate a whole lot of interest except in specialized circles. The team that Tektronix had working on hardware and software called ECS (Engineering Computing Systems) at the Tektronix Wilsonville, OR. Campus, was world class. The talent pool they had was incredible. When ECS was disbanded and the development and products discontinued, it was a horrible scene. The folks in ECS had developed an incredible team atmosphere, and there was a lot of excitement. Many of the engineers had found their "dream jobs" in ECS, and those dream jobs vanished into thin air. I believe that there might be some issues trying to restore older 1st and 2nd generation Utek filesystem dumps onto an XD88 machine. Utek was very BSD 4.2-based. The XD88 version adopted some SVR4 stuff both at the utility level, and some system calls. Tek scrapped a lot of machines. Some ended up going up for sale at the Tektronix Country store for fractions of cents on the dollar. Some were sold at "fire sales". I have a working 6130, 4132, and one of the 68K-based machines. The biggest problem with the 4132 and 68K-based machine (I wish I could remember the model number) is that the 1/4" cartridge tape drive capstans turn to goo. The 6130 used floppies for loading up the OS. I still have all of the floppies (they've been imaged), and they still work. I have cartrdige tapes for the 6130 and 4132 Utek versions (not imaged), and did get one 1/4" tape drive working about a year ago, but ran out of time. Don't know if it'll still work. I really should try to image this stuff (at least dd images) sometime soon. Rick From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Apr 29 22:49:01 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:49:01 -0700 Subject: RSX-11 Message-ID: <366bcebf8e4d51d9188d2f92bcffcbee@valleyimplants.com> Probably an extremely frequently asked question, but searching didn't seem to bring anything up. What is the current status of PDP-11 O/S software? USENET seems to indicate that there is no non-commercial license, yet the simh website has some of them available for download, with the license file having a clause that states that it is valid for emulators owned by DEC (??), and also seems to indicate that RSX-11 is covered, yet RSX-11 isn't available. Mentec's site isn't very helpful, all they talk about are Windows programs and it is so full of features as to be practically unusable on dialup. Any quick rundowns on the status anywhere? Scott Quinn From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 23:08:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:08:00 -0700 Subject: Apple Personal Laserwriter LS In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070429161148.03723fc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070429161148.03723fc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46350930.10484.5B0224F@cclist.sydex.com> How old is the drum? A rule of thumb is that many OPC drums have a shelf life of 3-4 years. They're also wrecked by strong ambient light. Could also be the power supply for the drum. Cheers, Chuck On 29 Apr 2007 at 16:14, Grant Stockly wrote: > I got an old printer for free. It works, but its printing grey stuff all > over the page like there is something wrong with the drum. I ran a few > pages through it and it didn't get better. > > Is there any reasonable way to fix it or should I throw it away? Anyone > need any parts if I do have to throw it away? > > Grant > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 29 23:44:27 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:44:27 -0700 Subject: RSX-11 In-Reply-To: <366bcebf8e4d51d9188d2f92bcffcbee@valleyimplants.com> References: <366bcebf8e4d51d9188d2f92bcffcbee@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 8:49 PM -0700 4/29/07, Scott Quinn wrote: >Mentec's site isn't very helpful, all they talk about are Windows >programs and it is so full of features as to be practically unusable >on dialup. It's still commercial software, and it's still possible to buy licenses. I assume you're looking at mentec.com, that hasn't been the place to look for several years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 23:53:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:53:26 -0400 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: <20070429145359.U65962@shell.lmi.net> References: <970334.84934.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20070429145359.U65962@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46357646.1060005@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Inside a large mainframe is best. Indeed. > Doorways and under desks don't work well if they're current flimsy crap. > Bathtubs are about the only thing that is still made solidly. Only if they're cast iron. There are some being sold made of fiberglass these days. I'd bet they're not strong enough. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 30 00:13:30 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:13:30 -0700 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70704291543r5eeaf83j25d623f1ac033b4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: Rob >I was here for the Manchester earthquake swarm, late 2002. > >Not so big as the latest, but more of them! Very eirie, although >very little damage, and nothing even fell over for me.. > >They are more common than we realise, in the UK, but not usually big >enough to be noticed. Hi A 4.7 isn't my idea of a quake. I live in California. I rarely even wake up for ones this size. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates NEAR 39yr LOWS! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,299/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-19132&moid=14888 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 00:41:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 01:41:00 -0400 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4635816C.50709@gmail.com> dwight elvey wrote: >> I was here for the Manchester earthquake swarm, late 2002. >> >> >> Not so big as the latest, but more of them! Very eirie, although >> very little damage, and nothing even fell over for me.. >> >> They are more common than we realise, in the UK, but not usually big >> enough to be noticed. > Hi > A 4.7 isn't my idea of a quake. I live in California. I rarely even wake > up for ones this size. But, again, you probably don't live in a Victorian-era unreinforced building. Peace... Sridhar From bear at typewritten.org Mon Apr 30 01:40:54 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:40:54 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro 386 Maintenance guide missing pages Message-ID: <9011B364-9D34-465F-A9C9-16D8E37C717F@typewritten.org> Hey; I don't suppose anybody out there has a copy of the Compaq Deskpro 386 Maintenance and Service Guide (mine includes "Addendum 108431-001 (11-88) to manual no. 108033-003")? I'm converting my copy to PDF and I am missing pages 5-1/5-2 and 5-5/5-6. Can somebody send me a copy of these two pages (four sides)? Any quality good enough to read the text is fine, as the pages are being re-typeset before the PDF conversion. Paper photocopies by mail, JPG, whatever. Thanks! ok bear From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Apr 29 18:12:30 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:12:30 +0100 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-04-29 at 22:40 +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > Cupertino years ago but never expected to feel one in Kent. I think > the same 'quake in California would not even get a mention in the > news, but our buildings are not designed for them here. On the other hand, in the US the buildings aren't designed for 150mph winds. Well, probably not in Kent either, but up here they are... Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 01:58:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:58:49 -0400 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <463593A9.7050903@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sun, 2007-04-29 at 22:40 +0100, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> Cupertino years ago but never expected to feel one in Kent. I think >> the same 'quake in California would not even get a mention in the >> news, but our buildings are not designed for them here. > > On the other hand, in the US the buildings aren't designed for 150mph > winds. Well, probably not in Kent either, but up here they are... There are places in the US where the buildings are designed for high winds. Just not everywhere. Peace... Sridhar From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Apr 30 03:34:58 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:34:58 +0100 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> > What do you mean "came with"? On disk, or in rom. > Obviously I haven't turned it on yet... > Aaahh.. On disk.. 3 inch floppys are reversable, you can turn them over. One side had the WP software and the other had CP/M 3.3 with utilities and also basic. GWBasic as i recall There must be disk images on the interweb somewhere!!! I think there is a PCW8256 emulator called Joyce aswell. There is a very high chance that the floppy disk drive has a broken or streached drive belt preventing it from turning the floppy. A Rubber band is a good temporary substitute. > > Despite the awful monitor, It is a TV screen.. > and mine came repleat with the printer BTW. > the printer has no logic onboard but is driven directly from the main unit, so is useless by itself > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 30 05:19:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:19:38 -0500 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> References: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4635C2BA.8080702@yahoo.co.uk> roger pugh wrote: > There is a very high chance that the floppy disk drive has a broken or > streached drive belt preventing it from turning the floppy. A Rubber > band is a good temporary substitute. I know I've said it before on here... the owner of the first computing place I worked at used to make a fortune out of replacing those belts. We used to have a lot of Amstrad stuff come in, and 9 times out of 10 on those machines the culprit was a stretched or broken belt. It was an easy five minute fix, but I think the repair charges were a flat rate for the first hour or something, so he used to make an absolute bundle out of those systems. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 30 05:41:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:41:24 -0500 Subject: Silly BSD questions (Now Utek) In-Reply-To: References: <46345412.1961.2ECA8B8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46346BE4.9178.349B6A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4635C7D4.8060903@yahoo.co.uk> Rick Bensene wrote: > There are quite a number of versions of Utek (@&^!&^ Outlook won't let > me capitalize the "t"). There's an easy solution to that ;) > The first versions were for the National 320xx > CPUs. This ran on the 6205's, 6130, and 4132. Later, a Motorola > 68000-based verson was released. It ran on the 2nd-generation machines > -- I can't remember the model numbers of off the top of my head. These > machines came in between the earlier National-based machines, and the > XD88 series machines, which were based on the Motorola 88000 CPU. Indeed - the XD88 is actually "UTek V", and I'm not sure if the 'V' is just a UTek version number, or implies that the OS is tweaked with features more in keeping with the SysV line. > XD88 machines were quite powerful, and had really nice graphics > processors that made things like 3D solids modeling run really nicely. > Graphics performance was very high compared to many other vendors at the > time. The machine's certainly lovely to use (although mine's a lowly /10 and lacks all the serious 3D hardware) - it feels amazingly responsive compared to what such as Sun were doing at the time. The chap who contacted me actually worked on the 3D hardware microcode; he said that for a brief period (of mere weeks) the XD88 was probably the fastest 3D platform out there, until SGI came along with a new model and blew them out of the water. > Unfortunately, Tek never really knew how to market computers. The Tek > 4051/4052/4054, and to some degree, the Tek 4081, were the only real > Tektronix computer products that were market makers. The way my engineer contact told it, Tek management were totally unable to see anything except terminals - even the design philosophy forced on the XD88 was that of a 3D terminal coupled to a UTek compute engine via a not-particularly-quick bus. Management even had a slogan: "KISS A RIJAT". "Keep It Simple, Stupid - And Remember, It's Just A Terminal!" > Utek was very BSD 4.2-based. The XD88 version adopted some SVR4 stuff > both at the utility level, and some system calls. Aha - see above. I did wonder. (I keep doing this - I read a bit of a post, start a reply, and then read the rest of it as I'm replying :-) > Tek scrapped a lot of machines. Some ended up going up for sale at the > Tektronix Country store for fractions of cents on the dollar. Some were > sold at "fire sales". I really wish they'd kept at it. Whilst they perhaps couldn't have competed with SGI longer-term, they were heading in the right direction and probably could have found a niche making systems with good graphics support where the overkill of an SGI monster wasn't quite needed. I'd love to find a Tek XD88/30 though with all the serious 3D bells and whistles. > I have a working 6130, 4132, and one of the 68K-based machines. The > biggest problem with the 4132 and 68K-based machine (I wish I could > remember the model number) is that the 1/4" cartridge tape drive > capstans turn to goo. Hmm, mine's OK in my XD88. With those sorts of drives it seems to be totally random as to whether you get a bad one or not. > The 6130 used floppies for loading up the OS. I still have all of the > floppies (they've been imaged), and they still work. I have cartrdige > tapes for the 6130 and 4132 Utek versions You're lucky. My XD88 came with no OS media, no docs, a failing hard disk, a trashed filesystem, no knowledge of what the root password was, no mouse, no display, and no keyboard. It took quite a while to sort that lot out :-) I'd still like to find OS tapes for it sometime, but don't hold out much hope. My box was owned by IXI and used as a development host for their X.desktop software, so it has a minor interesting role in computing history I suppose. cheers Jules From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 05:52:18 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:52:18 +0100 Subject: Facit printer late 70's early 80's and early microprocessor uses In-Reply-To: <4633DA65.1000803@gifford.co.uk> References: <83BDDF4D-61A9-46EB-B993-8AD946B2A5B4@neurotica.com> <4633DA65.1000803@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: hmm this list could run and run keep it up chaps, update The Rohde & Shwarz RF test set was an SMPU and was in the 1975 catalogue (I found a copy at home at the weekend) TMS7000 I have one on a Speech option card made by Texas for their Professional Computer Dave Caroline From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 30 07:36:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:36:02 -0500 Subject: WAY OT Re: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk><1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> <463593A9.7050903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006c01c78b24$1d704910$6400a8c0@BILLING> TSIA Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 30 10:14:56 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:14:56 -0600 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On the other hand, in the US the buildings aren't designed for 150mph > winds. Well, probably not in Kent either, but up here they are... Why? Any *good* computer collection will keep you home from moving ... :) > Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:33:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:33:02 -0400 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> <463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4635FE1E.3010905@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> On the other hand, in the US the buildings aren't designed for 150mph >> winds. Well, probably not in Kent either, but up here they are... > Why? Any *good* computer collection will keep you home from moving ... :) The joke my father made as I moved into my house was that I didn't need to lock the doors, since no thief would be physically able to steal my stuff. It was partially because the size of the individual units, as well as the fact that I had to take my front door off its hinges for most of my stuff to fit, and the only way I was able to get the stuff off the truck was to back a truck with a liftgate so that liftgate was lined up with my front porch. When the truck was in that position, it was blocking the entire width of the street. I think my neighbors would notice if a thief blocked my street. In addition, if you roll the big hard disk array (which is probably the most valuable single rack in the house) too fast, you'd probably put it through the living room floor into the basement, and I *know* my neighbors would hear that. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Apr 30 09:58:30 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:58:30 -0400 Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <051301c7899c$25136500$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200704280143.l3S1hkq9014774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070430105314.012c1698@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Alexandre Souza may have mentioned these words: >>At 6:43 PM -0700 4/27/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>I am about ready to take my #10 sledgehammer to this benighted piece of >>>junk. >>>How in all that is holy do you get it apart? I've got all the screws out, >>>got all the snaps up on the lower part and the top half seems to float off >>>except for something in the middle of the board I can't see that's >>>holding it >>>on. I think it's the cabling to the LCD, but I can't get the display apart >>>either! Most of the snaps are off, but I can't undo the root. >>>Any suggestions, before I disassemble the unit using the fragmentation >>>method instead? >>Yes, send it to me! :^) > > Second on the queue. Maybe Zane is not home, or too busy :o) I'd be happy to take "third dibs" (thibs?) on it -- remember, I have a screwless STacy that is otherwise functional... I'd love to have a cache of spare parts, or a "baseline" system with which to get replacement screws for. Oh, and it seems you've never had to reassemble a Tandy 200 - getting the LCD cable back into where it belongs is a licensed, practicing and overtime-earning PITA! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Apr 30 10:02:01 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:02:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TRS-80s in Cleveland, OH Message-ID: I'm not particularly interested in TRS-80 equipment, so I thought i'd post this for everyone else. Cleveland State University's current surplus auction contains quite a collection of TRS-80 equipment. Here's a link to the auction info: http://wapps.csuohio.edu/campusmailbag/forum_posts.asp?TID=2101 Post if you bid on it; I'd be interested to know who's taking it. Jeff Armstrong jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From jim at photojim.ca Mon Apr 30 10:07:47 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:07:47 -0600 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent References: Message-ID: <008101c78b39$4ff6a770$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Minor Earthquake in Kent > A 4.7 isn't my idea of a quake. I live in California. I rarely even wake > up for ones this size. I slept through a 4.1 once, and I've never actually felt a quake (that I recognized as such). Given how buildings are constructed in southeast England, though, a 4.7 would be pretty noticeable. All the buildings that wee built that way in California have been destroyed by earthquakes already, or extensively retrofitted so that masonry won't collapse. The quake in Bam, Iran in 2005 killed thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) but it was weaker than the Loma Prieta and Northridge quakes in California a few years ago, and those quakes only killed a few dozen people each. Not to belittle the death tolls, but the building techniques in California are much better than they are in other seismically active regions. I bet if you had a 4.7 in Missouri or Arkansas there'd be a lot of damage, and the scary thing is that the largest quakes in continental US history occurred there (read up on the New Madrid fault). Jim From jim at photojim.ca Mon Apr 30 10:30:36 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:30:36 -0600 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric><463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4635FE1E.3010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e001c78b3c$8004df10$1802a8c0@JIMM> > woodelf wrote: >>> On the other hand, in the US the buildings aren't designed for 150mph >>> winds. Well, probably not in Kent either, but up here they are... >> Why? Any *good* computer collection will keep you home from moving ... >> :) Clearly someone else has some VAXstations. ;) Jim From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 30 11:15:46 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:15:46 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D54C2E4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al Kossow wrote: History San Jose was selling off some of the Perham collection today, mostly old VTRs and some radio stuff. Got a call that there were two KSR 35s, one of which we identified as the console from the SDS 930, and an ASR 33 out there, so I drove down to retrieve them. When I got there, the RECOMP was on the pallet next to one of the 35s. I'm going to try to set up a time to go through the computer stuff to try to find the rest, but I'm not hopeful, since I don't recall seeing the desk or typewriter. ---------------- Billy writes: Al, Congratulations! That is a hell of a find, my friend. I'm immensely pleased to see at least one of these survived. In the last box of stuff I loaned you is a thick white binder from Autonetics. It is the Theory of Operations and Maintenance manual for several models of the Recomp. One of the early chapters has some details on the differences between the different models. So you even have some documentation! The ones I worked on in the Army all used a Flexowriter for the I/O typewriter. I'd be surprised if a Model 35 ever worked on a Recomp - too many years in between them. There are some details in the book describing early computers that Ed Thelen scanned and put up on his site. (Some where in the garage is another copy of that plus an earlier edition, both in great shape.) Because there is a flat disk for main memory, in the Army we called this the "Jukebox". There were at least a dozen of these at Redstone Arsenal. They were used to program the "stable table" of the Redstone missile. I believe they were also used on some of the early NASA shots that used the Redstone as a first stage booster. I'm pleased for you - the Recomp is one of the rarest computers to find in our hobby. Billy From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 30 11:27:38 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:27:38 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue Message-ID: <463618FA.3060902@bitsavers.org> > In the last box of stuff I loaned you is a thick white binder from > Autonetics. It is the Theory of Operations and Maintenance manual for > several models of the Recomp. Great! I went through the CHM archives, and we have the user program library listings, but no maint docs. I was going to check if John Bohner might have them. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 12:01:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:01:32 -0700 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D54C2E4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D54C2E4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4635BE7C.14828.874523C@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2007 at 9:15, Billy Pettit wrote: > Congratulations! That is a hell of a find, my friend. I'm immensely > pleased to see at least one of these survived. There's an interesting transcript of a Smithsonian interview done in the 70's with a couple of fellows who were part of the development: http://invention.smithsonian.org/downloads/fa_cohc_tr_farr730625.pdf Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 12:03:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:03:15 -0700 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> References: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4635BEE3.1037.875E33E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2007 at 9:34, roger pugh wrote: > There must be disk images on the interweb somewhere!!! I think there is > a PCW8256 emulator called Joyce aswell. Believe it or not, Locoscript is still in business and is selling software for the PCW: http://www.locoscript.com/ Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 30 13:35:28 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:35:28 -0700 Subject: TNIX Message-ID: <463636F0.2050703@bitsavers.org> > There are quite a number of versions of Utek (@&^!&^ Outlook won't let > me capitalize the "t"). The first versions were for the National 320xx > CPUs. This ran on the 6205's, 6130, and 4132. Later, a Motorola > 68000-based verson was released. FWIW, there was a V7 based system called TNIX which shipped on the 8560 development systems (11/23 and 11/73 based). Would be nice to find the 8" diag and release floppies for this (I have a couple of them). From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Apr 30 15:11:37 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <0JH800LTJ5FZH7E3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20070430201137.9E8A3589A8@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Allison > > > > >Subject: Re: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. > > From: Cameron Kaiser > > Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:22:36 -0700 (PDT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > Unless anyone has any other bright ideas, it's going in the trash. It's my > >> > bloody money and I'll get my money's worth out of this piece of crap the > >> > Gallagher way. No wonder Atari burned out. > >> > >> Golly, Cameron--doesn't it say right there on the unit "No user- > >> serviceable components inside"? ;-) > > > >No, it just doesn't say much of anything. > > > >I have never met a machine more impossible to get into for its size. > > > > Five gets you 10 there is a hidden screw under a foot or behind a label. > > This is also the same for the Atari 5200 power supply. Two screws are plainly visible but the other two are under rubber feet. Arrgh! Cheers, Bryan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 30 15:32:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sinclair "design" board? available (UK) Message-ID: <575764.86464.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.old-computers.com/forum/ forum_posts.asp?TID=1880&TPN=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 30 16:28:15 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:28:15 -0500 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> Warren Wolfe wrote: >> You can't beat Vern Buerg's Veneered and Generated LIST. After many >> years, still my favorite. >> >> http://www.buerg.com/ > > That's got MY vote, FWIW. It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x hardware, which was Dave's target platform. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 30 16:33:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:33:59 -0500 Subject: IBM 540MB old hard drive In-Reply-To: References: <014a01c787c3$a2222e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <007201c787c5$35513510$9480a8c0@catherine> Message-ID: <463660C7.4090209@oldskool.org> Paxton Hoag wrote: > In Portland Oregon I would try the Free Geeks Thrift Store on 10th St > east side 2 blocks south of Hawthorn. > > In Eugene Oregon I would look at NextStep Recycling thrift store. They > often have 2 inch hard drives but I haven't looked at them. Are there any of these kinds of stores in the Chicagoland area? The only one I know of is Software Re-Runs, but that's more of a repair shop than a recycler/thrift. I have had *zero* out of at least 20 goodwill store successes (99% of the computer stuff is old VGA monitors) so that's out in this area. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 30 17:21:14 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:21:14 +0100 Subject: Sinclair "design" board? available (UK) In-Reply-To: <575764.86464.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 30/4/07 21:32, "Chris M" wrote: > http://www.old-computers.com/forum/ > forum_posts.asp?TID=1880&TPN=1 Too late mate, If that's the one I think it is. Sold for ukp501 yesterday or the day before. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 16:59:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:59:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 29, 7 03:52:00 pm Message-ID: > > Personally, i like the amstrad pcw's. Sold as a > > cheap wordprocessor, it > > also came with cp/m,a strong basic and a dot matrix > > printer for as > > little as =A3200. > > What do you mean "came with"? On disk, or in rom. On disk. Interestingly, there is no ROM chip in a PCW. Part of the ULA acts as a tiny bootstrap ROM (it outputs the correct states onto the data bus depending on the state of the address bus), just enough to read the boot sector into RAM and execute it. > and mine came repleat with the printer BTW. Be warned that the printer interface is not Centronics, or even close. It's a very low-level interface, essentially drive lines to the stepper motors, printhed coils, etc (the actual driver stages _are_ in the printer). If you want to use some other printer with the PCW, there was a serial/parallel interface module that plugged onto the expansion bus connector (which is basically the Z80 bus). I have no idea where you'd find one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 17:11:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:11:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> from "roger pugh" at Apr 30, 7 09:34:58 am Message-ID: > > > Despite the awful monitor, > > It is a TV screen.. Isn't it a green phosphor? If so, it's not a TV CRT.... The monitor electronics look pretty much like a TV design, but then so do just about all small monitors of that time. What' the particular problem with it. I wonder if some careful tweaking could get it a lot better. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 17:23:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:23:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: disassembling STacy with a SLEDGEHAMMER. In-Reply-To: <20070430201137.9E8A3589A8@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Apr 30, 7 04:11:37 pm Message-ID: > > Five gets you 10 there is a hidden screw under a foot or behind a label. > > > > > > This is also the same for the Atari 5200 power supply. Two screws are > plainly visible but the other two are under rubber feet. Arrgh! It's very common. I seem to remember, for example, that the HP110 laptop has 4 or so clearly visible screws on the bottom, and rather more hidden under the feed, the nameplate label, and a couple of other stickers. Certainly I always peel off feet and labels if something won't come apart after remocing all the visible screws. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 30 17:43:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sinclair "design" board? available (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <735388.96117.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Graham wrote: > On 30/4/07 21:32, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > http://www.old-computers.com/forum/ > > forum_posts.asp?TID=1880&TPN=1 > > Too late mate, > > If that's the one I think it is. Sold for ukp501 > yesterday or the day > before. Ah well, I tried. Significant, but it's just a board (like a drawing board?). Not like it was the original notes/drawings. Those would be loads more interesting. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 17:44:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:44:22 -0700 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk>, <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site>, <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46360ED6.10492.9AE2EBD@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2007 at 16:28, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> http://www.buerg.com/ > > > > That's got MY vote, FWIW. > > It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x > hardware, which was Dave's target platform. How about a down-level version of LIST? Go to simtel. net and search for "Buerg". You'll find List77a, List93a and the source for List60. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 30 17:49:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <347385.46269.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Just curious how, or even if, old design drawings and such were preserved in the old days. I could barely venture a guess as to when the first optical recording drives became "useful", all I remember is a friend obtaining one of the first (locally) cd players for his auto in ~the summer of '87. I was in contact with a few of the people who were involved w/the Mindset computer, and had hoped I would obtain info on the custom vlsi chips it used, in any form of course. This just lead me to ponder when this stuff started *appearing* on cd's and such. Can anyone name the different optical CD formats that modern readers can't work with? I know there must be a few... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 30 16:52:37 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:52:37 +0100 Subject: Autonetics Recomp (circa. 1960) rescue References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D54C2E4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <00bc01c78b7a$6c016450$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....at least a dozen of these at Redstone Arsenal. They were used >to program the "stable table" of the Redstone missile. I believe >they were also used on some of the early NASA shots that used the >Redstone as a first stage booster. That sounds like the first few, sub-orbital, project Mercuy shots (including the first two manned fights). They used the Redstone as a temporary measure while they worked the bugs out of the Atlas launch vehicle (which themselves were modified ICBMs). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Apr 30 16:58:03 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:58:03 +0100 Subject: RSX-11 References: Message-ID: <00bd01c78b7a$6c4683a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > What is the current status of PDP-11 O/S software? USENET >seems to indicate that there is no non-commercial license, >yet the simh website has some of them available for download.... The answers to your question can be found in "comp.sys.dec" and/or "comp.sys.dec.micro". There was a rather long, heated discussion about this in one of those newsgroups sometime last year. Beware of asking your question in those groups though, you'll be opening a major can of worms.... TTFN - Pete. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 30 17:55:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <292221.34185.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Interestingly, there is no ROM chip in a PCW. Part > of the ULA acts as a > tiny bootstrap ROM (it outputs the correct states > onto the data bus > depending on the state of the address bus), just > enough to read the boot > sector into RAM and execute it. Holy freeholy Batman. Now that's a first for me. > If you want to use some other printer with the PCW, > there was a > serial/parallel interface module that plugged onto > the expansion bus > connector (which is basically the Z80 bus). I have > no idea where you'd > find one. Gee thanks mate. Leave me hanging. Yes I was made aware of the interface. But for starters I think I'll need to worry more about hacking up a ribbon. As if I'd find the time... Contrariwise I guess it wouldn't be any big deal to create an rs-232* interface from scratch. I can dream can't I? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 30 17:59:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:59:35 -0500 Subject: Sinclair "design" board? available (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463674D7.4060906@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > If that's the one I think it is. Sold for ukp501 yesterday or the day > before. And if it is, it's just a drawing board - nothing fancy, and nothing to actually connect it to the work that it was used for. Now if it came with some of the original Sinclair drawings and stuff like that it'd be something unique, but I don't believe that was part of the deal. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 30 18:15:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SymbOS Message-ID: <648797.40135.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/symbos8bit/ "SymbOS (SYmbiosis Multitasking Based Operating System) is a new OS for Z80 based systems and is currently available for the Amstrad CPC and the MSX2 computers and compatible systems. SymbOS is based on a micro-kernel-architecture. It provides real preemptive multitasking, a dynamic memory-management for up to 576KB Ram, a totaly Windows-like GUI and support of hard discs with up to 128GB. This group is dedicated to the SymbOS operating system. You will get actual information about the development-progress and can freely discuss about SymbOS and the supported Z80 computers." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Apr 30 18:55:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:55:17 -0700 Subject: RSX-11 Message-ID: <6ce9428e28605192ddc31b4dfc46446f@valleyimplants.com> > It's still commercial software, and it's still possible to buy > licenses. > > I assume you're looking at mentec.com, that hasn't been the place to > look for several years. > > Zane mentec-inc used to be the place for the commercial stuff, but it seems to be no longer around. My question, however, was regarding the non-commercial PDP-11 stuff. At this point, I'm not interested in the commercial stuff- it just isn't worth it. (before you grab the torches and pitchforks I don't find Windows "worth it" enough to walk across campus and pick up the all-but-free disks either). I was looking into emulators (never touched the VAX's little brother or O/S SW yet), and came across some disk images with the following licensing: "Whereas, MENTEC owns the rights to the following PDP-11 Operating Systems and associated layered products (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior) (SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY) and is prepared to grant a non-exclusive license to use such SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY for personal, non-commercial purposes;" and "SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY shall mean the binary versions of the PDP-11 Operating Systems (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior), and associated utilities and layered products that run on PDP-11 computers. " but somewhat cryptically also "EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation that emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 programs and operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems. 2 LICENSE GRANT MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in conjunction with the EMULATOR." So, in short, is this only valid for emulators in which DEC or it's successors in interest (HP?) own the copyright, or is it only valid for systems where DEC or (...) hold RTU licenses for a PDP-11 emulator on? If the prior, what is the connection to SIMH? If it is valid for currently obtainable emulators and (as it seems to at face value) include RSX-11, why no RSX-11 images? I suppose RSTS/E is the easy way out, (provided licensing is good), but RSX-11 has the advantages of some commonality with VMS (DCL). From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Apr 30 19:37:19 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:37:19 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C597@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chris M wrote: Just curious how, or even if, old design drawings and such were preserved in the old days. I could barely venture a guess as to when the first optical recording drives became "useful", all I remember is a friend obtaining one of the first (locally) cd players for his auto in ~the summer of '87. I was in contact with a few of the people who were involved w/the Mindset computer, and had hoped I would obtain info on the custom vlsi chips it used, in any form of course. This just lead me to ponder when this stuff started *appearing* on cd's and such. Can anyone name the different optical CD formats that modern readers can't work with? I know there must be a few... ------------- Billy answers: There are two parts to your question. The first is how old design drawings were preserved. In all the companies I have worked for in the last 45 years, the drawings were destroyed. Some individual copies survived. And patent applications remain. But all design drawings were destroyed as a matter of policy. That way there was no way support obligation coming up long after it was cost effective. And it makes patent challenges difficult, especially prior art arguments. Even today, most of the design archives where I work have a very limited life time. The second question is a little more logical. Early on, CDs were not well accepted. One reason was that they were rigidly defined by a document called the "Red Book" which precisely described the format, the media, the recording method and so on. To get access to the Red Book, you have to sign a conformity and privacy agreement. The technology is much more complex than that used on magnetic recording. The huge base of vendors building according to the spec has very much limited the variation of formats. And this rigidity has been kept up on the DVDs. I have seen modern readers demostrate this compatibility by modern devices reading some of the very first CDs made in the labs at Philips. While there may be some odd formats, I'm not familiar with any of them. The start up costs to create the media and OPUs prevent any but the most brave of souls from going this way. Whereas a unique floppy or hard drive format was easy to do. Any engineer with a "better idea" could throw together a circuit and be shipping in a few months. His costs often were only one small media formatter. You can see this effect if you try to list all the different floppy formats for 8" and 5.25". There were dozens of different formats. At MPI, I remember a wall chart showing the relationship of more than 50 formats that we were shipping. Things settled down a little with the 3.5" floppies, but there were still variations floating around. And a few odd ball experiments like the 3 inch drive. MPI had a 1.6" floppy in the lab, but fortunately it died. IOmega continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. An optimist would say the CD people learned from the floppy fiasco. A cynic would say nobody could afford to be an indiviualist. Billy From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Apr 30 19:42:50 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 00:42:50 +0000 Subject: Housecleaning - PC Parts Message-ID: <050120070042.16841.46368D0A00026332000041C922007623029DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Hi, I'm doing some housecleaning and have some PC odds and ends, free for postage or pickup in Chicago (ZIP 60659). As I get the list in digest, reply directly to me at r_a_feldman at hotmail.com. If I don't hear by Friday, these items age going to the recycling center. Bob HP Colorado T1000 Internal tape drive. Irwin Accutrak Tape drive, Compaq 64041 (Compaq Spare 197490-001). Lapine Titan LT200 20MB Drive (Dead) w/National Computer Ltd. NDC5127-60 Controller. Oak 8/16 Bit CGA/VGA card. DTK ISA Multifunction card (FDC/Serial/Parallel/Clock/Game) P11-117 (needs battery). MCT Turbo XT motherboard w/8088/8087. Chinon FR-506 5.25" 1.2MB. TEAC FD-505 (Dual 5.25"/3.5" Half height). Epson SD-700/SD-800 (Dual 5.25"/3.5" Half height) (Condition unknown). Citizen U1DA-49F (3.5?). IBM 5151 Mono monitor (prefer pick-up). HP J2341A Jet Direct Internal for LJ 4 w/software and docs. HP J2382B JetDirect EX External Parallel/Ethernet w/software and docs, boxed. From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 30 16:17:33 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:17:33 +0000 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: In-Reply-To: <366bcebf8e4d51d9188d2f92bcffcbee@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20070501011626.MMTK1630.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Got one fixed, reset was held low because of bad soldering in the reset circuit. And I determined I might have 4 or five possible working units out of 10. 2 had total PSU, fly and HOT failure, and another two have HV stink. Note: I had diffcult time finding 6800 (68B00 same CPU but it's 2MHz) datasheet. Still couldn't find it except for pinout which helped me to figure out that one terminal. Is there any reliablity fixes or bulletins that I should know about while I fix these? Because some of them did not have this fix like this one i fixed has many diodes tacked to the pins of the IC and all of them did not have correct wire grounding strap that goes around the CRT bell (the current configuration is relied on the pressure of the steel wires (this makes up part of the cage) against the CRT's bell, I don't like this). How is the reset circuit is done in this as well? Finally, last question, how stready is the PSU pulses? Some of them is jittering in PWM where good one is steady. Cheers, Wizard From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 30 21:04:32 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:04:32 -0500 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <46360ED6.10492.9AE2EBD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk>, <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site>, <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> <46360ED6.10492.9AE2EBD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4636A030.3080508@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Apr 2007 at 16:28, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>>> http://www.buerg.com/ >>> That's got MY vote, FWIW. >> It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x >> hardware, which was Dave's target platform. > > How about a down-level version of LIST? Go to simtel. net and search > for "Buerg". You'll find List77a, List93a and the source for List60. Still too slow. LIST insists on buffering in 64K chunks, and it's not a sliding window, it's a hard break. So you'll hit PGDN, half the screen will display, then you wait 5 seconds, then the rest. It makes quick viewing a PITA. Anyway, it looks like I'll have to add hex viewing to my viewer; when done, I'll post a link here. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 30 22:25:29 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:25:29 -0700 Subject: RSX-11 In-Reply-To: <6ce9428e28605192ddc31b4dfc46446f@valleyimplants.com> References: <6ce9428e28605192ddc31b4dfc46446f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0700 4/30/07, Scott Quinn wrote: >but somewhat cryptically also > >"EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation >that emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 >programs and operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems. > >2 LICENSE GRANT > >MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free >license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy >the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in >conjunction with the EMULATOR." > >So, in short, is this only valid for emulators in which DEC or it's >successors in interest (HP?) own the copyright, or is it only valid >for systems where DEC or (...) hold RTU licenses for a PDP-11 >emulator on? If the prior, what is the connection to SIMH? If it is >valid for currently obtainable emulators and (as it seems to at face >value) include RSX-11, why no RSX-11 images? I suppose RSTS/E is the >easy way out, (provided licensing is good), but RSX-11 has the >advantages of some commonality with VMS (DCL). Bob Supnik has stated that SIMH is still covered by this license, he was a VP with DEC at the time he arranged for it. Furthermore all indications from Mentec in the past have been that this is true. Based on the inquiries I made about a month ago nothing has changed from the Hobbyist point of view. At least one version of RSX-11M has been available for use under SIMH in the past. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 30 11:19:07 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:19:07 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <46310112.10102@srv.net> References: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03> <46310112.10102@srv.net> Message-ID: <463616FB.1000501@garlic.com> So how would you store such carts for the long term? Sealed can with dessicator, maybe? Mason jars? -- jd The First Commandment for Technicians: Beware the lightning that lurketh in the undischarged capacitor, lest it cause thee to bounce upon thine buttocks in a most untechnician-like manner. From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 30 10:51:52 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:51:52 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> For that matter, was enough publicly known about the Enigma at the >>> time to do that then? >> I thought that Unix (1969) was developed well after WW2. > > It was, yes. > >> After WW2, the Enigma was well understood, and was no longer an >> enigma. > > Not an enigma to the cryptographers who worked on breaking it, no. But > my understanding was that only recently was much of that data > declassified. Note that I said *publicly* known.... > David Kahn's "The Codebreakers" published in 1968 (IIRC) had details of Enigma, including how rotors were wired. So at least by that time all the details of the German and Polish military Enigmas were publicly available, if not publicly known. Called a "dynamic substitution cipher", IIRC. Also had some details about PURPLE, the Japanese version of Enigma. The Enigma patent was publicly available after the war. First sV system I used had the Enigma two-rotor algorithm to encrypt passwords, plus salt. That was in the late 1970's. Allowed characters were alphanumeric; no spaces or punctuation to begin with. Later, punctuation was allowed but still no spaces. I don't recall any sV or BSD system I used through to the late 80's having anything but the Enigma style crypt function for passwords. Same for My First Linux Computer(tm) in 1993. Didn't get hashing until about 1998. No spaces allowed until after 32 char-plus passphrases were enabled some years later. I have heard from veterans that ROT-13 was once used to encrypt passwords. I saw it only once on a SysIII derived single-user system driving a PROM (not EPROM) burner/tester. I had fun finding passwords on a HP2000C/F BASIC timeshare system in 1973. Two others were running brute force methods which were nothing more than programs punching a few miles of tape for a few accounts using every possible sequential ASCII character combination, excluding some forbidden combos. (Passwords could be a mix of printing and nonprinting, or control characters.) Took them a couple of weeks just to punch the tape on a KSR33--and they used six or so rolls altogether--but they gave up after a few hours of reading the tape, due to the problem of handling so much tape, IIRC. I got three admin passwords and one group admin password (and so got the whole group's passwords) by just thinking about it for a few days and trying most likely passwords. Got the group admin's password on the second try and his supergroup account password on the third try. Old school password cracking: Too trivial to be fun for long. Stack & buffer overflows and mutating code--now that was fun! And one could often gain a lot of info from what sysadmins & sysops would not talk about. -- jd A UNIX saleslady, Lenore, Enjoys work, but she likes the beach more. She found a good way To combine work and play: She sells C shells by the seashore. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 23:09:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:09:47 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: <463616FB.1000501@garlic.com> References: <01C7880D.38368D00@mse-d03>, <46310112.10102@srv.net>, <463616FB.1000501@garlic.com> Message-ID: <46365B1B.30368.AD8187F@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2007 at 9:19, jd wrote: > So how would you store such carts for the long term? > > Sealed can with dessicator, maybe? > > Mason jars? Seal-a-meal in a dewar of liquid nitrogen,maybe. The Imation guy got back to me and informed me that, as far as the factory is concerned, there is no belt. They start with die-cut doughnuts of a type of sheet polyurethane (proprietary treatment) and feed them into a jig that "flips" and stretches them to shape. He said that it was virtually impossible to do this manually. So, if you've got a belt that holds its shape as a belt, it's probably too far gone already. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 30 23:23:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> Message-ID: <20070430212152.G40684@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, jd wrote: > I have heard from veterans that ROT-13 was once used to encrypt passwords. I heard recently that the FBI has almost cracked that one! The NSA may have already succeeded. From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 30 11:04:52 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:04:52 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" > >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... > So you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array every few weeks... Nice. One Of These Days, I'm going to make some covers for those holes on my 150A's from all that vinyl packaging I've had to buy just to (try to) get the stuff inside them. (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl packages, I expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable to open them.) [snip] > Seems like an interesting machine, one of these days I must get it set > up; I've only had it 9 years, LOL! How difficult are HP/IB hard drives > to come by for them (I've got the dual floppy drive unit)? > > >From time to time Halted and Weird Stuff have HPIB hard disk boxes. Sometimes they even work! I haven't been up there in a while so I have no idea what they have now. -- jd I can't understand why a person will take a year or two to write a novel when he can easily buy one for a few dollars. From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Apr 30 10:51:52 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:51:52 -0700 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> For that matter, was enough publicly known about the Enigma at the >>> time to do that then? >> I thought that Unix (1969) was developed well after WW2. > > It was, yes. > >> After WW2, the Enigma was well understood, and was no longer an >> enigma. > > Not an enigma to the cryptographers who worked on breaking it, no. But > my understanding was that only recently was much of that data > declassified. Note that I said *publicly* known.... > David Kahn's "The Codebreakers" published in 1968 (IIRC) had details of Enigma, including how rotors were wired. So at least by that time all the details of the German and Polish military Enigmas were publicly available, if not publicly known. Called a "dynamic substitution cipher", IIRC. Also had some details about PURPLE, the Japanese version of Enigma. The Enigma patent was publicly available after the war. First sV system I used had the Enigma two-rotor algorithm to encrypt passwords, plus salt. That was in the late 1970's. Allowed characters were alphanumeric; no spaces or punctuation to begin with. Later, punctuation was allowed but still no spaces. I don't recall any sV or BSD system I used through to the late 80's having anything but the Enigma style crypt function for passwords. Same for My First Linux Computer(tm) in 1993. Didn't get hashing until about 1998. No spaces allowed until after 32 char-plus passphrases were enabled some years later. I have heard from veterans that ROT-13 was once used to encrypt passwords. I saw it only once on a SysIII derived single-user system driving a PROM (not EPROM) burner/tester. I had fun finding passwords on a HP2000C/F BASIC timeshare system in 1973. Two others were running brute force methods which were nothing more than programs punching a few miles of tape for a few accounts using every possible sequential ASCII character combination, excluding some forbidden combos. (Passwords could be a mix of printing and nonprinting, or control characters.) Took them a couple of weeks just to punch the tape on a KSR33--and they used six or so rolls altogether--but they gave up after a few hours of reading the tape, due to the problem of handling so much tape, IIRC. I got three admin passwords and one group admin password (and so got the whole group's passwords) by just thinking about it for a few days and trying most likely passwords. Got the group admin's password on the second try and his supergroup account password on the third try. Old school password cracking: Too trivial to be fun for long. Stack & buffer overflows and mutating code--now that was fun! And one could often gain a lot of info from what sysadmins & sysops would not talk about. -- jd A UNIX saleslady, Lenore, Enjoys work, but she likes the beach more. She found a good way To combine work and play: She sells C shells by the seashore. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Apr 30 04:48:05 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:48:05 +0100 Subject: Apple Personal Laserwriter LS In-Reply-To: <46350930.10484.5B0224F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070429161148.03723fc0@pop.1and1.com> <46350930.10484.5B0224F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1177926485.10270.1.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-04-29 at 21:08 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How old is the drum? A rule of thumb is that many OPC drums have a > shelf life of 3-4 years. They're also wrecked by strong ambient > light. I found while I was debugging a paper pick problem with my Tektronix Phaser 560 that I was getting streaky blurry prints. I had one of the cover interlocks spragged and the cover open. Stray light was affecting the operation of the drum. Check the case is light-tight. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Apr 30 04:52:33 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:52:33 +0100 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> References: <169670.38752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <1177922099.4604.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1177926753.10270.5.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 09:34 +0100, roger pugh wrote: > > What do you mean "came with"? On disk, or in rom. > > Obviously I haven't turned it on yet... > > > Aaahh.. On disk.. 3 inch floppys are reversable, you can turn them > over. One side had the WP software and the other had CP/M 3.3 with > utilities and also basic. GWBasic as i recall > > There must be disk images on the interweb somewhere!!! I think there is > a PCW8256 emulator called Joyce aswell. > There is a very high chance that the floppy disk drive has a broken or > streached drive belt preventing it from turning the floppy. A Rubber > band is a good temporary substitute. There's a little idler pulley you can adjust. When there's no more adjustment left, one of the belts in a Ferguson 3V23 belt kit just about fits (a little tight IIRC). I used to do dozens of these in the early 90s when I worked in a computer shop in Aberdeen. They were incredibly popular on oil rigs for some reason. > > > Despite the awful monitor, > > It is a TV screen.. All the ones I've seen are green-screen, but the monitor electronics are similar to a simple monochrome telly. > > > and mine came repleat with the printer BTW. > > > > the printer has no logic onboard but is driven directly from the main > unit, so is useless by itself There's a weird problem where the printer stops being detected. It seems to be something to do with either the driver ICs or the series resistors in the lines. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 30 06:37:52 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:37:52 -0400 Subject: RSX-11 Message-ID: <0JHB00BS36WEWMIB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RSX-11 > From: Scott Quinn > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:49:01 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Probably an extremely frequently asked question, but searching didn't >seem to bring anything up. > >What is the current status of PDP-11 O/S software? USENET seems to >indicate that there is no non-commercial license, yet the simh website >has some of them available for download, with the license file having a >clause that states that it is valid for emulators owned by DEC (??), >and also seems to indicate that RSX-11 is covered, yet RSX-11 isn't >available. > >Mentec's site isn't very helpful, all they talk about are Windows >programs and it is so full of features as to be practically unusable on >dialup. > >Any quick rundowns on the status anywhere? Yes, check the licensing info for SIMh and a few others. While PDP-11 OSs (RT, RSX and RSTS [it may not include all of those]) are made available for SIMs it is not for commercial use or operation on real hardware. The copyrights are still valid and some of the products are active. Allison >Scott Quinn > From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Apr 30 10:49:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:49:28 +0100 Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <4635FE1E.3010905@gmail.com> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> <463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4635FE1E.3010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1177948168.10270.19.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 10:33 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >> On the other hand, in the US the buildings aren't designed for 150mph > >> winds. Well, probably not in Kent either, but up here they are... > > Why? Any *good* computer collection will keep you home from moving ... :) > > The joke my father made as I moved into my house was that I didn't need > to lock the doors, since no thief would be physically able to steal my > stuff. I've often thought that if any thief tried to help themselves to the contents of my flat, they'd only need to pull one of the big old Ensoniqs over on themselves. Of course then I'd probably get done for some kind of Health and Safety at Work violation, for not providing the burglar with a hard hat and safety boots and a full site induction... Gordon