From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 1 01:39:12 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 02:39:12 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: References: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1162366752.6425.13.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 16:31 -0700, cctech at porky.vax-11.org wrote: > I do NOT want to start a flame war here. > > > > I would argue that since the program you co-developed did not actually > move the message from one place to another, it is better described as a > bulletin board system than an email system. > > Flame war? Is THAT all you got? Sheesh. My baby sister slaps harder. You might be right... but, it was an odd bird. Messages were NOT public. Each person signed in, and could only see messages addressed to them, or to "ALL". If everyone addressed messages to "ALL," it would be VERY much like a modern BBS. (Actually, I ran an RBBS system for about ten years, and wrote some utility programs for the RBBS message base.) READER messages could be sent to multiple recipients, too. I forget how many. Like many things, this hinges upon the definitions one places on "e-mail" and "bulletin board" systems. READER made private mail, but kept it on one computer. Except for the fact that it didn't chase down the recipient, it was e-mail. Machs nicht. > On the other hand, Tomlinson's work is moving message from one place to > another, presumably with some form of routing, so it qualifies (in my tiny > brain) as email. Oh, I think that's true by any rational definition. His program set would ALMOST work today... > Do you know what the mechanism for moving messages was? It is my belief > that UUCP was used to move the first email messages, but I could be wrong. That's it. File transfers were arranged either by UUCP or by FTP between servers on the "mail runs." Thanks for your comments, Clint. I'm not very flammable, by the way, but really good at it if I am triggered. I generally don't mind anything if it's true and well-intentioned, or as close as is reasonable. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From asholz at topinform.de Wed Nov 1 02:59:07 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:59:07 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems, Convex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454861DB.5030903@topinform.de> Richard, right, it is quite sad, but these can be substituted. A much bigger problem was, that these systems, but not only these, are using isolation transformers and these are often scrapped. Meanwhile I got one from a Fujitsu VPP, but I've knowledge of a transformer in Poland, a trip of 1000Km. Another problem is documentation and software. Due to a lot of help from former Convex people we got some, but far away from completeness. This is not the only system, we have also: - a C220, dual Vector - 2 SPP1200XA (MP Pa-Risc, SCI) - 3 SPP1200CD (MP Pa-Risc, SCI) - 1 SPP1600XA (MP Pa-Risc, SCI) - 1 SPP1600CD and one SPP1600 Chassis (MP Pa-Risc, SCI) - 1 SPP2000 48 Processor System (MP Pa-Risc, CC-NUMA) - 1 S-Class 32 Processor System (MP, Pa-Ris) - 1 Cray J916 and these C3860 (Vector) beast (3,5ton + 500Kg Isolation Transformer + 500Kg SMD-Disc-Rack) Andreas > In article <4547003D.6050504 at topinform.de>, > Andreas Holz writes: > > >> Only about 13Years old, but quite large: >> >> http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ >> > > Nice! It saddens me when I see thick cables cut with bolt cutters > instead of detached from the receptacle and coiled up with the unit > though :-(. > From asholz at topinform.de Wed Nov 1 03:05:02 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:05:02 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems, Convex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4548633E.7020400@topinform.de> There are still missing parts, but there was a similar systems shutdown this year in Poland and I'm still saving money for the rescue trip. A very special problem are the X-Bar Connectors. There has to be used a special silicone foil with fine gold fibers, called "fujis", and some of these fujis and some spares are missing. Andreas > On 31/10/06 07:50, "Andreas Holz" wrote: > > >> Only about 13Years old, but quite large: >> >> http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ >> > > Don't you just hate it when decommissioners cut the power cables like that! > Is the system still in bits or has it been reassembled? > > From cc at corti-net.de Wed Nov 1 03:44:05 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:44:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45471956.9010705@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45471956.9010705@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: > Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, > since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there > is even less software that has survived. Now that you have the only purely German mainframe (TR-440), is there any software with it, like BSM or PS440 or TEXAS etc.? Any software for the Zuse machines? Jules Richardson wrote: > You know, I almost think that the UK picture is a little brighter in this > respect. Certainly there still seem to be healthy enough numbers of pre-1975 > "desk sized" systems about (meaning that there are enough about for anyone > who has the necessary restoration skills to be able to have one). Finding > them is a little tricky, but they are there. Well, we have two working LGP-30s, one from 1958, the second from 1963. BTW they are the only two working in the world, the second one came to us last year and includes the Calcomp plotter with interface box. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 1 04:43:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 04:43:38 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031232603.26259.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061031232603.26259.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45487A5A.5020901@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: >>> What this implies is that the PC was several years >> delayed in UK. >> >> No, this implies I was quoting from a magazine. > > I've heard stuph to the effect that there wasn't alot > of Big Blue stuph in the UK, at least not in the early > days. Not on the desktop - I think there were a fair few 'server' class systems around though. But yes, my understanding is that the PC just didn't take off in the UK like it did in the USA (and elsewhere?). Remember that the UK had a massive amount of choice when it came to general desktop machines - quite probably more so than the USA did. UK society at the time was very much "squeeze every last possible drop out of what you had", whilst the impression I've got of the US was that people were far more willing to upgrade systems reasonably frequently to whatever the latest thing available was. > Research Machines was a big name though, and common. In education, yes. Not so much for home or business use, though. What timeframe are we talking - say 1982 to 1985 or so? The education market was split primarily between Research Machines and Acorn, with a few others picking up the scraps. The home computer market was amazingly diverse, but frequent names were Sinclair, Acorn and Commodore. The corporate world of desktops was similarly diverse (with the likes of CP/M crates, Commodore, Apple, and IBM all featuring) - but there were also a huge number of business people making use of the same machines that were found in the home. Often these people were talented enough to write their own bespoke software to manage their business, but there was a healthy market in 'business' software written for these machines too. A while back I came up with a list of early-80s UK computer manufacturers (in order to see how much space we'd need for a UK-specific room at the museum). It ended up being pretty massive... > I still want the blooming Nimbus Good grief, why? They're pretty nasty. If you want something from RML, go for a 380Z or a 480Z - those are 'real' computers; the 380Z has that lovely rugged 'military' feel to it with all the fun of a modular system (albeit without a rigid backplane :-) whilst the 480Z is a great example of good design, both hardware and packaging. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 1 04:54:24 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 04:54:24 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45487CE0.8020508@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > However, I see things like large line printers and other such early > printing peripherals seem to be rare. They only seem to appear in > people's collections if they were part of a big bundle. > > Any other peripheral collectors out there? My experience has generally been that they're no longer there and available to be collected :( It seems like companies hoard the bits that they think might be 'useful' somehow - things like CPUs and tape units - but generally toss the rest (printers, terminals, and in a worrying number of cases documentation and software too). In other words, it's often too late and the peripherals have long gone. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 1 10:00:50 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:00:50 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4548C4B2.7040803@mdrconsult.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> I would agree. I haev 3 or 4 pre-1975 Unibus PDP11s, a PDP8/e, a Philips >> P850 and an HP9830 (along with a couple of 9100Bs, a couple of 9810s and >> a 9820 if you count those as computers). > > I can forsee a world where computers are being saved, but peripherals > and special-purpose machines (calculators, industrial controllers, > sequencers, etc.) are not. > > Private collectors fall into the same trap as the institutions > and museums, ending up with lots of CPU's but few of the necessary > peripherals. This may be true of the minority; I wouldn't know how to quantify that. I do know that far more of my available cubic yardage is occupied by storage peripherals and media than by system cabinets. I also think that "private collectors subscribed to ClassicCmp" are less likely to fall into that trap than collectors at large. We make this point well and often. Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 1 09:03:34 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:03:34 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: > Now that you have the only purely German mainframe (TR-440), is there any > software with it, like BSM or PS440 or TEXAS etc.? Any software for the > Zuse machines? CHM won't have the machines until early December. The material on the TR 440 that I've put up on bitsavers was from the existing corporate archive. There is one entire container of documentation and software, and there were Telefunken tapes and documentation there. A simulation would be an obvious thing to attempt. It will be difficult to do here, though, since most of the documentation will be in German. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 1 05:05:08 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 05:05:08 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45487F64.7070000@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> so what does this make the Sinclair ZX-80, ZX-81 and Spectrum systems? > > The exception that proves the rule ? :-) (I couldn't resist either). > >> (I am not even sure you *could* type in the commands, I think you *had* >> to press the appropriate function key). > > You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenising routine into the ROM. to nit-pick: a) didn't the later Spectrums (128, +2, +3) with '128 BASIC' let you type the commands without the keyword system? b) At least on the 16K / 48K Spectrums (not sure about the ZX80 or '81) there was a 'feature' of ZX BASIC whereby through some key combination you could delete a keyword but the BASIC wouldn't drop back to keyword mode properly. Of course it doesn't count because the interpreter then wouldn't make sense of anything typed, but getting out of keyword mode *was* possible ;) > So how do you distinguish 'calculator' from 'computer'? A calculator calculates, a computer computes? ;-) I suppose it depends purely on the designer's intended primary usage - from looks (display type, key layout, and I hate to say it - size) it's often pretty obvious that something is mainly designed for one particular use - but there are cases where it functions (at least) adequately for the 'other' use too. Heck, back to Spectrums, I remember that the +2 had a built-in calculator application... (what were the other main menu options? 128 BASIC, Spectrum BASIC, Calculator, but I'm sure there was at least one other) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 1 05:08:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 05:08:35 -0600 Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. In-Reply-To: <0J8000GUAT1BAZVF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J8000GUAT1BAZVF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45488033.60105@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: >> Background : I am musing on how to give a small amount of storage, say >> around 100kb, to a very small low tech cpu. >> I do not care about speed and efficiency. > > Myself for 100k I'd use a EEprom. Eprom or even 128k ram with a battery. That was my immediate thought too, but it perhaps depends on whether the OP meant KB or Kb. And of course whether they have ease of portability issues in mind. But certainly from an interfacing point of view to a 'low tech CPU' I doubt there's anything easier than an EEPROM. cheers Jules From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 1 10:31:58 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:31:58 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 19:54 -0700, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > Art of Computer Programming? That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? In today's world, the way to implement the same algorithm would be to use disk files; MUCH faster. With a TERABYTE of screaming fast disk storage available for a desktop machine for about 500 pounds (around $750 US) the REASON for a multi-tape sort has gone away. (Unless, of course, one finds spinning tape reels exciting in themselves...) Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 1 10:37:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:37:15 -0600 Subject: Paging Bob Shannon References: <00f801c6f3e5$7f70ff50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000b01c6f51b$b4548d40$0100a8c0@screamer><000c01c6f521$51c2e1d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <001901c6f556$53a71810$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <015a01c6fdd4$026511b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote... > There are 3 more RL-01 packs that were left behind. Bob - is my email address stuck in your spam filter? Sent you a few emails! Jay From feedle at feedle.net Wed Nov 1 10:54:54 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 09:54:54 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site> References: <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <8FF3E48F-0945-488B-9DF1-D68467AF6821@feedle.net> On Nov 1, 2006, at 9:31 AM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? > In today's world, the way to implement the same algorithm would be to > use disk files; MUCH faster. With a TERABYTE of screaming fast disk > storage available for a desktop machine for about 500 pounds (around > $750 US) the REASON for a multi-tape sort has gone away. (Unless, of > course, one finds spinning tape reels exciting in themselves...) $750? You're getting ripped off. Two SATA drives and a reasonable RAID controller can be had for $500 street in the US if you're willing to shop around. Considering single 750GB drives cost just under $350 in most major US markets, for around $800 you can get two of them, an inexpensive RAID 0/1 capable SATA controller, and have 1.5GB. Hell, I carry a terabyte around with me now when I travel (a 500GB Firewire drive, and a 500GB-equipped D-Link NAS box.. hey, I got to have my movies and mp3s with me, right?). As to WHY you'd want to do a sort onto tape, my To: field says this is the classic computer mailing list. It sounds like a fun project for somebody who as an old PDP (and the space for six tape drives) or similar lying around. Heck, it might even make a fun programming project to "emulate" it using a bitty box and some virtual "tape drives". Lastly, it would make a great academic project for teaching. My 2 cents. Unfortunately, it's in Canadian coin. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 1 11:38:38 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 18:38:38 +0100 Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. In-Reply-To: <45488033.60105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0J8000GUAT1BAZVF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <45488033.60105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4548DB9E.105@bluewin.ch> Jules Richardson wrote: > Allison wrote: >>> Background : I am musing on how to give a small amount of storage, >>> say around 100kb, to a very small low tech cpu. >>> I do not care about speed and efficiency. >> >> Myself for 100k I'd use a EEprom. Eprom or even 128k ram with a battery. > > That was my immediate thought too, but it perhaps depends on whether the > OP meant KB or Kb. I meant 100Kbytes. And of course whether they have ease of portability > issues in mind. Not really, it was more a question of having some "stylish correct" storage for the planned system. But certainly from an interfacing point of view to a > 'low tech CPU' I doubt there's anything easier than an EEPROM. I fully realize there are easier options. If that was my concern I would have gone for the SD-card solution. However I might cut corners and go for a simple one-sector per track implementation. Allison's suggestion of feeding squarewaves and looking at what comes back seems like a good idea, and will be a starting point. Jos Dreesen From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 11:48:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:48:14 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <8FF3E48F-0945-488B-9DF1-D68467AF6821@feedle.net> References: , <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site>, <8FF3E48F-0945-488B-9DF1-D68467AF6821@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45486D5E.32106.4A95122C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 9:54, C Sullivan wrote: > As to WHY you'd want to do a sort onto tape, my To: field says this > is the classic computer mailing list. It sounds like a fun project > for somebody who as an old PDP (and the space for six tape drives) or > similar lying around. Heck, it might even make a fun programming > project to "emulate" it using a bitty box and some virtual "tape > drives". Lastly, it would make a great academic project for teaching. I suppose that if it was "performance art" that someone wanted to create, the effect would be more spectacular if paper tape punch/readers were used. No reason why it shouldn't work...AFAIK, all of the access in the algorithms is write/read/rewind; no fancy random skipping. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 12:01:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:01:28 +1300 Subject: Large Peripherals on Large Systems (was Re: Discussion of large systems) Message-ID: On 11/1/06, Richard wrote: > I agree, which is why I started collecting in two areas: serial > terminals and graphics boxes. "Graphics boxes" includes things like > dial boxes, button boxes and graphics tablets and even plotters. Cool. I've always been fascinated by dial boxes and button boxes, but, DECUS aside, never got the chance to play with many. I know they were big with SGI systems, but my experiences tended to run to DEC and Sun more than SGI. (here's an ASCIIfied doc I found on the VAX 8000 dial box - very cool... now I want one ;-) http://deathrow.vistech.net/~cvisors/DEC94MDS/vsxdatm1.txt > However, I see things like large line printers and other such early > printing peripherals seem to be rare. They only seem to appear in > people's collections if they were part of a big bundle. I have a LP05-type line printer and several smaller DEC printers (LA-180, LA36...) The LP05 is awaiting some attention, but my first LA-180 saw a lot of use its first few years... I bought it from Newman Computer Exchange in the mid-1980s to hang off of my PDP-8/a when they sent me a "free shipping on your next order" coupon. I looked through their catalog and picked out the heaviest item I thought I could get some use out of. A few days later, a van shows up with a palletized printer. Fortunately for me, a couple of years later, I got a contract job writing PDP-11 software and really _needed_ that printer (and equally fortunately, the $300 PDP-11/23 I picked up to do the work already had an LPV11 installed). I can't say that I had as much need for a true line printer fifteen years later, but they are cool to watch work. > Any other peripheral collectors out there? I collect CPUs _and_ peripherals, if that counts. -ethan From jwest at ezwind.net Wed Nov 1 12:07:08 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:07:08 -0600 Subject: M9312 boot roms Message-ID: <01cb01c6fde0$91b88b10$6700a8c0@BILLING> To all who wanted M9312 boot roms burned, I've completed that today. I'll have them out in the mail by the end of the week. Expect an email after they are sent with total cost. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 1 12:12:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:12:32 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:31:58 -0500. <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1162398718.6425.53.camel at linux.site>, Warren Wolfe writes: > On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 19:54 -0700, Richard wrote: > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > Art of Computer Programming? > > That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? No, because having all those tape drives visibly spinning makes for a familiar sight when it comes to old iron. People are *used* to "old computers" looking like a large bank of spinning tape drives. It boggles my mind why people think I am trying to perform "the world's most efficient and timely sort" when I propose such a stunt. If I wanted to do things efficiently and in a timely fashion, I wouldn't use old hardware in the first place! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 1 12:16:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:16:42 -0700 Subject: Large Peripherals on Large Systems (was Re: Discussion of large systems) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 07:01:28 +1300. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > (here's an ASCIIfied doc I found on the VAX 8000 dial box - very > cool... now I want one ;-) > > http://deathrow.vistech.net/~cvisors/DEC94MDS/vsxdatm1.txt That is most likely the Evans & Sutherland dials box rebranded with DEC logos! The VS8000 was basically a DEC VAX CPU with an E&S graphics subsystem. > > Any other peripheral collectors out there? > > I collect CPUs _and_ peripherals, if that counts. Apart from a few other terminal freaks, I appear to be the only person out there that actively looks for peripherals... unless they're not reading this thread :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 1 12:17:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:17:47 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:45:51 -0600. <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <4548186F.30908 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <45479038.22326.4735378C at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > >> After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for > >> Hollywood for many years... > > > > So far noone has responded to my earlier query in the affirmative: > > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > Art of Computer Programming? > > How many would that be? I believe the example uses 6, but as mentioned the algorithm is generalized to an arbitrary number of tape drives. Personally I think to do it Hollywood style, you'd need at least 6 drives and it would be even more impressive if you could get something like 12 drives all in a row grinding away on it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 1 12:33:19 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:33:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Large Peripherals on Large Systems (was Re: Discussion of large systems) In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Nov 1, 6 11:16:42 am" Message-ID: <200611011833.kA1IXKAK288486@floodgap.com> > Apart from a few other terminal freaks, I appear to be the only > person out there that actively looks for peripherals... unless they're > not reading this thread :-). Kind of hard to read this thread when all one has is a NIC and no CPU. ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Tell the truth, and run. -- Yugoslav proverb ------------------------------- From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Nov 1 12:37:37 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:48:14 PST." <45486D5E.32106.4A95122C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200611011837.kA1Ibbor031523@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >On 1 Nov 2006 at 9:54, C Sullivan wrote: > >> As to WHY you'd want to do a sort onto tape, my To: field says this >> is the classic computer mailing list. It sounds like a fun project >> for somebody who as an old PDP (and the space for six tape drives) or >> similar lying around. Heck, it might even make a fun programming >> project to "emulate" it using a bitty box and some virtual "tape >> drives". Lastly, it would make a great academic project for teaching. > >I suppose that if it was "performance art" that someone wanted to >create, the effect would be more spectacular if paper tape >punch/readers were used. No reason why it shouldn't work...AFAIK, >all of the access in the algorithms is write/read/rewind; no fancy >random skipping. Am I recalling correctly? I seem to remember watching the operators of the (hmm. 370/158?) do that all the time. The would run a big merge/sort and plop a lot of tapes in drives - I think we had at least 5, maybe more like 7-8 tape drives. Nice shiny vacuum column machines. A joy to use and watch (course I never maintained them :-) Originally we had something like a lowly 360/30 (this was in Wilmington Del) but then a 370/158 was moved down from NYC. All of the databases were on tape - disk was only used for temporary storage for a long time. Later we got CICS and more on-line disk storage, and (yowza!) things like source code control. That place ran 24x7... I'm having PL/1 flashbacks. ugg. -brad From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 1 13:04:38 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 19:04:38 +0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <45487F64.7070000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 1/11/06 11:05, "Jules Richardson" wrote: >> You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenising routine into the ROM. > > to nit-pick: > > a) didn't the later Spectrums (128, +2, +3) with '128 BASIC' let you type the > commands without the keyword system? Yep, from the Investronica 128 (the first 'toastrack' edition with the Big Metal Heatsink?) to the +3, 128 mode let you just type and make your own mistakes. > b) At least on the 16K / 48K Spectrums (not sure about the ZX80 or '81) there > was a 'feature' of ZX BASIC whereby through some key combination you could > delete a keyword but the BASIC wouldn't drop back to keyword mode properly. Of I never came across that, but there was at least a couple of 3rd party hacks that bypassed the keyword system and let you type 'properly'. I didn't like them at the time because I knew my way round the keyboard blindfold so I was much quicker typing in programs using the keyword system. > Heck, back to Spectrums, I remember that the +2 had a built-in calculator > application... (what were the other main menu options? 128 BASIC, Spectrum > BASIC, Calculator, but I'm sure there was at least one other) Tape tester..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 1 03:00:43 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:00:43 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:44:44 GMT." Message-ID: <200611010900.JAA20405@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Adrian Graham said: > > The IBM PC was launched in 01/83 at ukp2390 That must be RE-launched, ...the PC is advertised for sale in the UK in April 1982 "Practical Computing" - I've a copy in front of me. It was also shown at the Computer Fair held in Earls Court 23-25 April 1982, which is probably where I saw first saw 'em. Of course they may have been "grey imports", but IIRC they were pukka 250V models, and I seem to recall UK keyboards. However, I don't think IBM had a retail divisison in the UK in 1982, IIRC they dealt only with corporate customers at that time. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 1 13:20:30 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:20:30 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1162408830.6425.86.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 11:12 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article <1162398718.6425.53.camel at linux.site>, > Warren Wolfe writes: > > > On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 19:54 -0700, Richard wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > > Art of Computer Programming? > > > > That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? > > No, because having all those tape drives visibly spinning makes for > a familiar sight when it comes to old iron. People are *used* to "old > computers" looking like a large bank of spinning tape drives. Oh, okay. To me, "it looks cool" is a perfectly acceptable reason to do it. But, if the aim was to sort some massive quantity of data, a bit of technical assistance with the algorithm might be in order. As I believe I mentioned before, laziness plays a factor in my decisions, although I prefer the term "time management" for reasons which should be obvious. I certainly am going to ASK if you want help with sorting data before I offer you assistance. But, don't think I don't approve of just wanting one's collection to look good. For further effect, you might wish to mount (taking care to allow for safety) some roman candles, to create that Irwin Allen effect, should there ever be an infinite loop in one of your programs. The same people who know that "old computers" consist of spinning tapes know that programming errors start fires and cause explosions. > It boggles my mind why people think I am trying to perform "the > world's most efficient and timely sort" when I propose such a stunt. > If I wanted to do things efficiently and in a timely fashion, I > wouldn't use old hardware in the first place! Yep, that's a given, and I never thought you were trying to set any records in your effort. It could be, though, that you were actually intending to sort data that is on tape. It has happened -- I know, I checked. For myself, I like to compare algorithms. There was a WONDERFUL DOS program out there back in the early IBM PC days that took random data (or data pre-sorted in various ways) and sorted it using various algorithms, from bubble sort to heap sort to quicksort. The cool thing was that all the retrieval and display code was identical, so one could literally WATCH the data being sorted, and the time it took was affected ONLY by the efficiency of the sorting algorithm. VERY instructional. This program was called, unimaginatively, SORTDEMO. As computers got faster, it became pointless, as ALL the sorts were over about the same time they started, so one could no longer watch the data being re-arranged. I just checked, and I still have that program. Maybe I'll set up an old PC just to run it... it's sort of like a cyber-lava-lamp. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 1 13:29:52 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:29:52 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <8FF3E48F-0945-488B-9DF1-D68467AF6821@feedle.net> References: <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site> <8FF3E48F-0945-488B-9DF1-D68467AF6821@feedle.net> Message-ID: <1162409393.6425.97.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 09:54 -0700, C Sullivan wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 9:31 AM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? > > In today's world, the way to implement the same algorithm would be to > > use disk files; MUCH faster. With a TERABYTE of screaming fast disk > > storage available for a desktop machine for about 500 pounds (around > > $750 US) the REASON for a multi-tape sort has gone away. (Unless, of > > course, one finds spinning tape reels exciting in themselves...) > > $750? You're getting ripped off. Fine. I didn't check prices this week. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. > Hell, I carry a terabyte around with me now when I travel (a 500GB > Firewire drive, and a 500GB-equipped D-Link NAS box.. hey, I got to > have my movies and mp3s with me, right?). I don't know. For myself, I can usually get by with a subset of them on my laptop. And, if the voices in my head ask for a specific movie, I can take that along on DVD. I have a couple thousand DVDs, so my motivation to pack hard drives with video is minimal. Your mileage (ahem, 'kilometerage' may vary.) > As to WHY you'd want to do a sort onto tape, my To: field says this > is the classic computer mailing list. Oh, crap. Classic COMPUTERS? Where's the Judy Garland Fan Blog? > It sounds like a fun project for somebody who as an old PDP > (and the space for six tape drives) or similar lying around. > Heck, it might even make a fun programming project to > "emulate" it using a bitty box and some virtual "tape > drives". Lastly, it would make a great academic project > for teaching. All valid reasons to be interested, I'll grant you. Perhaps you will grant ME that these various reasons require somewhat different types of assistance, or at least a different tone of enthusiastic grunting, if that is all that is required. A screwdriver to adjust head azimuth is pointless if one simply wishes to emulate tapes on disk, eh? (See, I speak your lingo. My name is not Wolfe for no reason.) > My 2 cents. Unfortunately, it's in Canadian coin. Ah, that would explain it. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 14:16:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:16:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <45487A5A.5020901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061101201643.57937.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > ...whilst the impression I've got of the US was that > people were far more willing > to upgrade systems reasonably frequently to whatever > the latest thing > available was. I think the problem with endlessly upgrading an older machine was getting support somewhere down that road. Software issues come to mind. Older hardware can get goofy too, so unless you have an ee degree, it's probably often more cost effective to toss the old system (for businesses at least). I think the disposable pc is alot more of a reality today then in the 80's though. > In education, yes. Not so much for home or business > use, though. What > timeframe are we talking - say 1982 to 1985 or so? The Nimbus probably came out in o about '85. I don't know alot about any of their other products, just that they're still around. And that cerulean blue and red logo looks positively lovely against a creme background ;) > ...but there were also a huge > number of business people making use of the same > machines that were found in > the home. Often these people were talented enough to > write their own bespoke > software to manage their business, but there was a > healthy market in > 'business' software written for these machines too. Yes, and there were quite a few small business run with a Commie 64. Generally though programming was not that much delved into. I've often felt *ducking* that some of the niftier pd warez (i.e. those concocted by amateurs) came out of Europe. > > I still want the blooming Nimbus > > Good grief, why? They're pretty nasty. If you want > something from RML, go for > a 380Z or a 480Z - those are 'real' computers; the > 380Z has that lovely rugged > 'military' feel to it with all the fun of a modular > system (albeit without a > rigid backplane :-) whilst the 480Z is a great > example of good design, both > hardware and packaging. Nasty in what way? Incompatible (largely my understanding) - I know ;). I place in somewhere between a Tandy 2000 and a Mindset (both used the same 80186). There is talk of "improved sound and graphics" which could mean asics, or possibly just something like a 7220 and an actual dedicated sound chip (which the 5150 didn't have). It appears to use the same Mistubishi made monitor as the Tandy 2000 (640 x 400 x 8), so I'm wondering if the data on old-computers.com is accurate. "That" monitor was also available for the Leading Edge Model M/Sperry PC, but it was only capable of CGA resolution, and had the most awful dot pitch. So there were variations. I do have a few z80 based machines, but I concentrate on Intel based stuph. > cheers > > Jules > ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 1 14:31:35 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:31:35 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45490427.9040703@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > I believe the example uses 6, but as mentioned the algorithm is > generalized to an arbitrary number of tape drives. Personally I think > to do it Hollywood style, you'd need at least 6 drives and it would be > even more impressive if you could get something like 12 drives all in > a row grinding away on it. Well a DEC TAPE I remember from the British TV series "Connections". That is Small Iron at work. :( From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 1 14:30:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:30:46 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:20:30 -0500. <1162408830.6425.86.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1162408830.6425.86.camel at linux.site>, Warren Wolfe writes: > For myself, I like to compare algorithms. There was a WONDERFUL DOS > program out there back in the early IBM PC days that took random data > (or data pre-sorted in various ways) and sorted it using various > algorithms, from bubble sort to heap sort to quicksort. The cool thing > was that all the retrieval and display code was identical, so one could > literally WATCH the data being sorted, and the time it took was affected > ONLY by the efficiency of the sorting algorithm. VERY instructional. > This program was called, unimaginatively, SORTDEMO. As computers got > faster, it became pointless, as ALL the sorts were over about the same > time they started, so one could no longer watch the data being > re-arranged. I just checked, and I still have that program. Maybe I'll > set up an old PC just to run it... it's sort of like a cyber-lava-lamp. What you describe with SORTDEMO is very valuable as an instructional aid and has become a field of study in its own right. Google for "algorithm visualization". At first it was a few people interested in visualizing algorithms for instructional purposes or for interesting experiments with their scientific visualization programs, but it has become a field of study in its own right since the mid 90s. (Hey, it qualifies for the ten year rule!) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 14:41:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:41:24 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200611011837.kA1Ibbor031523@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: >, <200611011837.kA1Ibbor031523@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <454895F4.24992.4B339A81@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 13:37, Brad Parker wrote: > Originally we had something like a lowly 360/30 (this was in Wilmington > Del) but then a 370/158 was moved down from NYC. All of the databases > were on tape - disk was only used for temporary storage for a long time. > Later we got CICS and more on-line disk storage, and (yowza!) things like > source code control. 729's on the model 30? No matter how you cut it, sorting on tape beat sorting cards on unit record equipment... Cheers, Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Nov 1 14:44:23 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:44:23 -0600 Subject: Interested in ECL RAM ICs In-Reply-To: <20061024041135.5385.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061024041135.5385.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45490727.30009@ubanproductions.com> Does anyone have any ECL RAM? A friend is experimenting and would like to locate some. --tnx --tom From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 1 02:08:38 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:08:38 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/11/06 01:56, "Richard" wrote: > However, I see things like large line printers and other such early > printing peripherals seem to be rare. They only seem to appear in > people's collections if they were part of a big bundle. > > Any other peripheral collectors out there? Yep, but only for items relating to my museum. The one thing I don't actively pick up is printers because they're so generic. An exception is if a particular printer was matched to or had to be used on a particular machine. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 1 02:12:11 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:12:11 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <200611010206.kA126ZRr026063@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/06 02:06, "Dennis Boone" wrote: > The point of my comment is that these US-made machines seem to have > been more expensive in the UK than the US -- hardly surprising. > Figuring out what UK prices were in equivalent USD is fairly simple, > but figuring out US prices from that list isn't trivial. We don't call this place 'rip-off Britain' for nothing - for as long as I can remember when things have come from the US the price here has been the same in ukPounds as it was in dollars no matter what the exchange rate was....the natural reaction was to do your own imports but unless you were canny with shipping invoices etc you got (and still get) clobbered for tax and VAT. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 1 15:37:33 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:37:33 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <200611010900.JAA20405@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On 1/11/06 09:00, "Stan Barr" wrote: > Hi, > > Adrian Graham said: > >> >> The IBM PC was launched in 01/83 at ukp2390 > > That must be RE-launched, ...the PC is advertised for sale in the UK > in April 1982 "Practical Computing" - I've a copy in front of me. Well, like I've already said I was quoting from a magazine myself, but further reading on its IBM PC page reveals this (again, correctness may be or may be not present): "So here it is at last, the system from the world's largest computer manufacturer. Not surprisingly, their PC has already spawned a host of look-alikes. At ?2390 it isn't quite the most expensive PC around but it isn't that far off either. Anyway, it is probably the most prestigious in many people's eyes. Officially, the IBM PC was launched in January 1983 but, as many of you will know, several 60hz 110v versions have been supplied via the 'back door' for at least the last 12 months." Caveat emptor :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 15:56:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061101215609.41201.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> actually this reply belongs to the parent thread, but I did a search of "Seattle Gazelle" in the archives, and there weren't any hits. I've heard rumors to the effect that Seattle generated their code on this very machine, but I myself am curious about the accuracy. Was it Digibarn who had one, and also a fellow named Jim Scheef in CT, though I'm sure it's down at the InfoAge museum thing by now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 1 16:01:01 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:01:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Spectrums (was Re: Collections of (physically) large computers) Message-ID: <200611012201.kA1M0v1i071298@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Graham wr ote: > On 1/11/06 11:05, "Jules Richardson" > wrote: > > >> You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenisin g > routine into the ROM. > > > > to nit-pick: > > > > a) didn't the later Spectrums (128, +2, +3) with > '128 BASIC' let you type the > > commands without the keyword system? > > Yep, from the Investronica 128 (the first > 'toastrack' edition with the Big > Metal Heatsink?) to the +3, 128 mode let you just > type and make your own > mistakes. > Yes, you could type the keywords, but no you couldn't make mistakes (atleast, not on my Spectrum 128 +2) as you were forced to correct any syntax errors before you could type in the next line of BASIC. Or atleast that's the case for 128K BASIC. I never used the 48K BASIC mode. >> snip << > > Heck, back to Spectrums, I remember that the +2 > had a built-in calculator > > application... (what were the other main menu > options? 128 BASIC, Spectrum > > BASIC, Calculator, but I'm sure there was at lea st > one other) > > Tape tester..... > Err. not on my Spectrum. From top to bottom it was: Loader (load in tape games - equivalent to typing Load "", IIRC) 128K BASIC Calculator 48K BASIC > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest priva te > home computer > collection? > > For the record I still have my Spectrum in it's original box. I had the light gun games 6-pack version sold in the early 90's. The games were: Robot Attack Operation Wolf (published by Ocean) Missile Ground Zero Bullseye ? (some target range in the wild with 4 levels?) Toy Bizarre My mum, however, put it somewhere "safe" sometime last year. It has the SNES game Super Mario World (with all 96 levels accessed) in with it too which I wanted to play earlier this year to a) recharge the battery back-up and b) cause it's great fun to play. Needless to say we couldn't find it :( The Spectrum manual, thankfully, is on my shelf here in my bedroom. I read it through thoroughly (start to finish) atleast twice in the early 90's as I wanted to make great games. Just as back then, I still have lot's of imagination and idea's for games and software. Thanks to my Amiga and AMOS BASIC I have been able to realise some of them. I do have plenty more stuff to come :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 16:06:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:06:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: "All in one" Early PCs In-Reply-To: <4547AAFA.3803.479DBC94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061101220609.93026.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > All: > > Since I couldn't find much on the web about it, I > decided to snap a > couple of photos and put the information on my > Durango F-85 system on > a web page. > > http://www.sydex.com/durango/durango.html Thanks for that :) > I've actually got two of these things; the second > has the integrated > hard disk but is otherwise the same. Does anyone > think a photo of > the external hard drive (SA-4008) would be > worthwhile including? Sure, what the heck. > How about an old (and worthless) Durango stock > certificate? Hey, it's history. But I totally misunderstood the intent of the thread. I thought that there would be a, or an attempt to, list all the groovy early AI1 peecees. Dang. But anyway, I'm looking for information on an early AI1 peecee (not!) by NCR. I saw it in a thrift shop in Long Island about 12 years ago. Many are familiar with the Decision Mate and the PC4 (z80 and 8088 based respectively). I met some Mormons...and the lady of the pair, who used to work for NCR, said that they had an "addendum" to the Decision Mate called the Compumate 4 or 5 or something. It was sort of a scaled down DM, more then a terminal, but less then a computer (?). If anyone knows what I'm talking about, or knows anyone who worked for NCR, I'd like to hear from you. And if anyone used to rummage at Eldie's in Levittown LI years ago, I'd like to hear from you too. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 16:25:36 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:25:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <200611010206.kA126ZRr026063@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20061101222536.69038.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> a little off-thread, but were there any peecees made in the UK that didn't use proprietary logic (asics and such)? __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 1 11:54:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:54:15 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061101222536.69038.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061101222536.69038.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4548DF47.7040409@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > a little off-thread, but were there any peecees made > in the UK that didn't use proprietary logic (asics and > such)? I had one from Ferranti like that. It was a real oddball - huge case, two power supplies (+5V from one, other voltages from the other), and two main PCBs (one housing the backplane and a bunch of logic, the other for the CPU and built-in ports). It had at least memory, serial, keyboard and parallel built in - and I'm fairly sure it had MDA graphics and a FDC too. I believe it had something like 4 8-bit ISA slots, plus a much larger custom slot for unknown usage. Unfortunately I never had original software for it and never got it to boot with any of the versions of either IBM or MS DOS that I tried. In terms of IBM compatibility, I'm leaning toward 'not very'. Sadly it went to landfill about 5 years ago (although I did try to get rid of it on here first!). On a brighter note I've since stumbled across an identical machine at Bletchley though - although I've not yet seen any software or manuals for that one either! cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Wed Nov 1 17:07:21 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:07:21 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454928A9.6040407@srv.net> Richard wrote: > I believe the example uses 6, but as mentioned the algorithm is > >generalized to an arbitrary number of tape drives. Personally I think >to do it Hollywood style, you'd need at least 6 drives and it would be >even more impressive if you could get something like 12 drives all in >a row grinding away on it. > > To do it Hollywood style, you just need to make the tapes move ... pause ... move ... pause ... (with nearby panel having lots and lots of unlabeled lights flashing randomally) Switches and knobs on the panel-of-lights are a plus. You don't need to have it actually doing anything, just a simple program to tick the drives every second or so (rewind at end of tape and start over), and a rack of blinking Christmas tree lights sitting nearby. You don't even need to sync the tape drives to the lights, or worry that most of the lights blink together. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 17:11:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:11:01 -0800 Subject: "All in one" Early PCs In-Reply-To: <20061101220609.93026.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4547AAFA.3803.479DBC94@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061101220609.93026.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4548B905.9206.4BBC94B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 14:06, Chris M wrote: > But I totally misunderstood the intent of the thread. > I thought that there would be a, or an attempt to, > list all the groovy early AI1 peecees. Dang. But > anyway, I'm looking for information on an early AI1 > peecee (not!) by NCR. I saw it in a thrift shop in > Long Island about 12 years ago. Many are familiar with > the Decision Mate and the PC4 (z80 and 8088 based > respectively). I met some Mormons...and the lady of > the pair, who used to work for NCR, said that they had > an "addendum" to the Decision Mate called the > Compumate 4 or 5 or something. It was sort of a scaled > down DM, more then a terminal, but less then a > computer (?). If anyone knows what I'm talking about, > or knows anyone who worked for NCR, I'd like to hear > from you. Are you perhaps thinking of the Z80-based InteracTV or InteracTV-2? Or perhaps the FirstStep? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 1 17:15:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:15:10 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:07:21 -0700. <454928A9.6040407@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <454928A9.6040407 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > To do it Hollywood style, you just need to make the tapes > move ... pause ... move ... pause ... (with nearby panel having > lots and lots of unlabeled lights flashing randomally) Actually I think this is what happens normally when you run this algorithm as it is designed to keep all the different drives moving forward to merge the data onto destination drives. The point of the algorithm is to avoid moving backwards on the tape, IIRC. > Switches and knobs on the panel-of-lights are a plus. Cue the SAGE racks! Action! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:15:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 23:15:31 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061101222536.69038.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/06 22:25, "Chris M" wrote: > a little off-thread, but were there any peecees made > in the UK that didn't use proprietary logic (asics and > such)? > I suppose it depends on your definition of 'pc'. Pretty much everything designed before say 1982 was free of custom logic AFAIK, this includes (not a complete list by any stretch) the Acorn System x and Atom, Compukit UK101, Tangerine Microtan65, Sinclair ZX80, Grundy Newbrain (an exception) etc. All 'personal computers'. If you mean 'IBM Compatible PC' then the only one that springs immediately to mind is the Ferranti made Advance 86.....time to do some digging! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:17:29 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 23:17:29 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <4548DF47.7040409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 1/11/06 17:54, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Sadly it went to landfill about 5 years ago (although I did try to get rid of > it on here first!). On a brighter note I've since stumbled across an identical > machine at Bletchley though - although I've not yet seen any software or > manuals for that one either! Hahahaha, would that be the Advance86 I've just posted about? :D -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 17:36:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:36:06 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4548BEE6.27889.4BD38C2E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 16:15, Richard wrote: > > To do it Hollywood style, you just need to make the tapes > > move ... pause ... move ... pause ... (with nearby panel having > > lots and lots of unlabeled lights flashing randomally) Plowing through very short records (physical blocks) on an old drive makes all sorts of interesting noise, too as the drive stops and starts in the IRGs. I remember running a particular COBOL acceptance test on CDC 607's that you could hear in the next county... Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 16:56:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 22:56:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <4547E837.3070300@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Oct 31, 6 05:20:07 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenising routine into the ROM. > > > > So how do you distinguish 'calculator' from 'computer'? > They work better as a door jam. :) Except that a common name for the ZX81 over here was the 'black doorwedge' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 16:58:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 22:58:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 1, 6 00:26:03 am Message-ID: > review to be sure. Presumably you know the Tiger was a Tangerine design that Indeed I do. I'ev seen it refered to as the 'Oric 0', the Oric being another Tangerine design of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:09:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:09:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Oct 31, 6 08:31:09 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I would agree. I haev 3 or 4 pre-1975 Unibus PDP11s, a PDP8/e, a Philips > > P850 and an HP9830 (along with a couple of 9100Bs, a couple of 9810s and > > a 9820 if you count those as computers). > > I can forsee a world where computers are being saved, but peripherals > and special-purpose machines (calculators, industrial controllers, > sequencers, etc.) are not. > > Why? > > Well, they aren't computers. And we're all here talking about computers. As I haev said many times on this list, my main interest is electronics. Not computing per se. Sure I like computers, but I regard them as being ingenious digital [1] electronic systems which happen to be programmable. [1] As yet Iv'e not obtained an analogue computer, unless you count some of the servo systems in my hard drives, which IMHO are dedicated analogue comptuers. And so I can see as much beauty and interest in, say, the motor controller of a plotter as in some CPUs. This is one reason I prefer the old TTL-built machines -- there is little to investigate when you have a few large ICs connected together, espeically when you don't have proper data on them. There's a lot more interest to me in a few boads of simple ICs -- gates, flip-flops, and the like -- which I can understand and watch the signals on the inputs and outputs. So yes, I collect peripherals, calculators, odd bits of control systems [2] and so on. And of course processors [2] I haev part (most?) of the control system from some kind of Xray defraction system (no, I don't have the 'optics'). It's patchboard programmable, uses DM160s as status indicators, etc. The papertape I/O uses the punch and reader from a fride flexowriter, mounted on 19" rack panels, and with their own motors. The printer is based on a Victor Comptometer adding machine with solenoids over the keys. I am not sure I'll ever use it, but it seemed worth rescuing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:11:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:11:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 31, 6 06:56:34 pm Message-ID: > Any other peripheral collectors out there? Sort-of. I like to run my machines with the original peripherals if at all possible (not necessarily the ones that were originally used on that particular CPU, but at least ones that would have been used on that type of machine). So my minis tend to have the demountable 14" hard disks, for example. I have a few HP printers and plotters for my HP 9000s and my calculators. And so on. There are some peripherals I've actively collected (in particular modem with odd receiver circuits), but in general I just obtain them when I see them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:14:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:14:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45479038.22326.4735378C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 6 06:04:40 pm Message-ID: > Heck, if you want to show folks a Spectrola 70 CPU, just keep the > empty cabinets and blinkenlights and stick a PeeCee inside with lots I will pretend I didn't read that. Well, unless you can tell me how to connect my Tekky 555 to the output of gate on the simulator > of I/O lines to run the switches and lights. You'll have less grief > in the long run than if you had the real innards.. For the nth time, I have the tools, test gear, and documentation to repair my classics. I don't have them for PCs. So a PC would cause me a lot more problems than a classic. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:42:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:42:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061101222536.69038.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 1, 6 02:25:36 pm Message-ID: > > a little off-thread, but were there any peecees made > in the UK that didn't use proprietary logic (asics and > such)? If 'peesee' doesn't just mean IBM-compatible, but covers all microcomputers, then there were doxens od such machines. Off the top of my head : Science of Cambridge MK14 Sinclair ZX80 Acorn Suytem 1 (and all the way up to Systme 5) Apricot (althogh some of the add-on boards did contain ASICs) Tiger PERQ AGW3300 Torch XXX Jupiter Ace Newbrain (or does the programmed COP420 keyboard controller count as an ASIC?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:17:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:17:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200610312300.49417.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 31, 6 11:00:49 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > > Art of Computer Programming? > > > > How many would that be? > > Assuming it's the same as the one talked about on here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_sort > > That's 4 drives. I could easily do that on DLT or 3480 media. :) I've got this insane idea to try to implement said algorithm on an HP71B calculator using HP82161 tape drives. I've got 4 or 5 of the latter hanging around here. I'd ignore the fact that the 71B normally creates a filesystem on said tapes, I'd just treat them as streams of blocks (and send the necessary HPIL DDT and DDL commands to access them). Time to get out tAoCP and have a look... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:23:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:23:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 1, 6 08:08:38 am Message-ID: > Yep, but only for items relating to my museum. The one thing I don't > actively pick up is printers because they're so generic. An exception is if While I would agree that most later impact dot-matrix printers are of little interest to me, there were some very odd machines out there that I find fascinating. The Sanders printers that did up to 8 pases of the printhead to produse very near letter quality output (one of the later ones of those was build on a DIablo 630 chassis, and the output is very much daisywheel quality, for all there's a 7 pin dot matrix head in there). The Versatec V80 electrostatic printer is another odd beast -- it builds up a charge image on special paper and then flows liquid toner over it (yes, I have one, and not just beacuae it was one printer supported on the PERQ). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 17:30:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:30:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1162398718.6425.53.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Nov 1, 6 11:31:58 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 19:54 -0700, Richard wrote: > > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > Art of Computer Programming? > > > That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? > In today's world, the way to implement the same algorithm would be to > use disk files; MUCH faster. With a TERABYTE of screaming fast disk Am I reading the classic computers list or the modern PCs list? The reason for implementing said algorithm (assuming I'm reading the former) is (a) 'beause it's there' and (b) 'To preserve computer hardware, software _and operating practices_ as far as possible' (as the constitution for one old computer group I'm a mmeber of says in the constitution) [emphasis mine]. -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 1 17:54:11 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 18:54:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061101235411.B90D3585B4@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Adrian Graham > > On 1/11/06 01:56, "Richard" wrote: > > > However, I see things like large line printers and other such early > > printing peripherals seem to be rare. They only seem to appear in > > people's collections if they were part of a big bundle. > > > > Any other peripheral collectors out there? > > Yep, but only for items relating to my museum. The one thing I don't > actively pick up is printers because they're so generic. An exception is if > a particular printer was matched to or had to be used on a particular > machine. > The printer for the Coleco Adam comes to mind... Cheers, Bryan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 18:08:29 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:08:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: "All in one" Early PCs In-Reply-To: <4548B905.9206.4BBC94B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061102000829.59386.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are you perhaps thinking of the Z80-based InteracTV > or InteracTV-2? > Or perhaps the FirstStep? Nah, it was an NCR AI1 peecee I saw. At the time I had thought it was some weird pseudo-compatible (I knew of the PC4, but assumed they had something Intel based prior to that, as alot of other outfits did. First tries don't count ;). It had an a> prompt, that's all I knew, so I assumed it had an 8088/86. And like I said, this lady knew what I was talking about right off. I have her e-mail addy somewhere too. Got to grill her for more info ;) Some of the stuph you could get real cheap from the place, but they wanted $25 for the thing, and although I found it mildly interesting at the time, it seemed too optimistic a price. Either some fool bought it, or it got chucked I would imagine. Sorry ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 18:11:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:11:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061102001139.31469.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > If 'peesee' doesn't just mean IBM-compatible, but > covers all > microcomputers, then there were doxens od such > machines. Off the top of > my head : Sorry, I did mean IBM compatibles. Anyone familiar with the innards of the Nimbus? I imagine there's some uncommon stuph in it, but I was of the persuasion that there wasn't "alot". ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 18:23:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:23:17 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 1, 6 08:08:38 am, Message-ID: <4548C9F5.30503.4BFEBCF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 23:23, Tony Duell wrote: > While I would agree that most later impact dot-matrix printers are of > little interest to me, there were some very odd machines out there that I > find fascinating. The Sanders printers that did up to 8 pases of the > printhead to produse very near letter quality output (one of the later > ones of those was build on a DIablo 630 chassis, and the output is very > much daisywheel quality, for all there's a 7 pin dot matrix head in > there). Like the printer in this thing: http://www.sydex.com/durango/durango.html Since it was pretty much Diablo people working on the printer in this box, they knew about the Sanders work and developed their own version, complete with downloadable and prop-spacing fonts. With a film ribbon, it's very difficult to tell that a daisywheel didn't do the printing. And you could print very large characters, unlike a daisywheel. This one used a 9 wire printhead, however. It uses a dedicated 8085 on a Multibus-sized PCB, along with the CRT controller. A second PCB holds all of the printhead drivers on a long heat sink, along with the drivers for the carriage motor (a 48v Litton DC motor with optical position encoder). For a time, management considered selling the printer as a stand- alone unit and even built a prototype. But Japanese dot matrix printers were making great strides and the project was dropped. I suspect that the Japanese printer makers were pressed to come out with a better product because of the need for higher print resolution when printing Kanji characters. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 18:25:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:25:57 -0800 Subject: "All in one" Early PCs In-Reply-To: <20061102000829.59386.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4548B905.9206.4BBC94B6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061102000829.59386.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4548CA95.3311.4C012FE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 16:08, Chris M wrote: > Nah, it was an NCR AI1 peecee I saw. At the time I > had thought it was some weird pseudo-compatible (I > knew of the PC4, but assumed they had something Intel > based prior to that, as alot of other outfits did. Well, it's not listed in my PC Tech Journal 86/87 or 87/88 product guides, so it either was later than that, stillborn, or very rare. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 18:40:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:40:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: "All in one" Early PCs In-Reply-To: <4548CA95.3311.4C012FE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061102004016.73072.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, it's not listed in my PC Tech Journal 86/87 or > 87/88 product > guides, so it either was later than that, stillborn, > or very rare. It was more or less contemporary with the Decision Mate, yet prior to the PC4 I guess. According to the dame, they made about ~2500. Unless you're referring to the PC4. You can stare at it here: http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=539 I have 3 of the mono versions, and like a fool passed up a barely used color unit. Alot of them wound up in POS applications (duy doi don't that make sense). ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Nov 1 18:44:52 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:44:52 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03655C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: Plowing through very short records (physical blocks) on an old drive makes all sorts of interesting noise, too as the drive stops and starts in the IRGs. I remember running a particular COBOL acceptance test on CDC 607's that you could hear in the next county... Cheers, Chuck --------------------------- It was wonderful wasn't it? And on the batch programs, all the attached tapes would rewind at the end of a job. You could feel the noise with your feet on the raised floor. I think the ulitmate was one night at CERN. Some jackass was playing and rewound all 36 tape drives at the same time. CERN was running the 1" 627's at the time. People went streaming out of the computer room. The idiot was banned from the 6600 permanently. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Nov 1 18:51:41 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:51:41 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03655D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: I suspect that the Japanese printer makers were pressed to come out with a better product because of the need for higher print resolution when printing Kanji characters. Cheers, Chuck ------------------------------- Absolutely. That was certainly the case when I worked at Fujitsu. The 9 wire printers were only sold in the US, weren't considered good enough for Japan. 24 wire was standard in Japan for a few years before being sold in the US. And it was one of the driving forces to develp the laser printer technology. Japan had to have the finer resolution. I think that even today, most laser engines are developed in Japan and OEM'd out. Billy From imind at ptd.net Wed Nov 1 18:58:35 2006 From: imind at ptd.net (Ben Ackerman) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 19:58:35 -0500 Subject: Apple Macintosh LC complete offered In-Reply-To: <20061029.230343.717.844664@webmail53.lax.untd.com> References: <20061029.230343.717.844664@webmail53.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <454942BB.9090804@ptd.net> Bill Pileggi wrote: > One of my customers gave me a complete Apple Macintosh LC circa 1991 in > VG condition. Monitor, computer, keyboard, mouse, O/S disks, plus other > software, she probably still has the manuals, too - will pick up same > when I visit her again. Anybody want it? Obviously not a problem to > ship from 19001. Bill/KA3AIS > Hi. If no one else has claimed the Macintosh LC then I'd love it. I'm up near Allentown so pick up is pretty easy for me (I used to work in Horsham so I know where you are pretty well) Thanks! Ben From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 1 19:15:19 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:15:19 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines Message-ID: <004601c6fe1c$5cf2c030$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy 2000 that doesn't have a color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 monochrome). I've read that you could use a third-party (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor like the old NEC Multi-Sync, but I was wondering if a modern VGA monitor could be used if I made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. Thanks for any hints. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 19:24:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:24:57 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03655C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03655C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4548D869.13486.4C37330B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 16:44, Billy Pettit wrote: > It was wonderful wasn't it? ...Except when it wasn't. If you had a large enough bank of tape drives, the white noise from the vacuum pumps was pretty rough on the nerves after a few hours. I recall working on a system that had 4 Cyber 74's hooked through a MAC to 4MW of ECS. Part of the acceptance test suite was running a full load on the system and reading long-record stranger tapes. (That's the 1LT PPU overlay). Since a PPU only had 4K of 12-bit words, and the theoretical maximum size of a tape block was much more than this, you had to read 5 PP words at a time, then CWD the lot to CM. But ECS accesses had priority over PP access to the read pyramid. So, you'd start to read a tape block, note the "lost data" flag, backspace to the beginning of the record and try again. It was pitiful to watch. There was a feature called "Priority Access" where a PP could muscle its way into the pyramid by setting bit 17 of the CM address (this was before the 131K machines and the problems that THAT created). Unfortunately, this aborted any ECS transfers from the CPU, which would promptly restart them. Things got very slow--so slow that DSD couldn't even refresh the operator's display on a timely basis, so the screen got all dim and flickery. Management gave that solution thumbs-down. I never did figure out a good way around it and I think that 1LT remained a cursed overlay until CDC dropped the Cyber architecture. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 19:30:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:30:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <004601c6fe1c$5cf2c030$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > > > I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy > 2000 that doesn't have a > color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 monochrome). > I've read that you could > use a third-party (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor > like the old NEC > Multi-Sync, but I was wondering if a modern VGA > monitor could be used if I > made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. > > > > Thanks for any hints. Sorry dude. The T2K and most things from that era output ttl (digital) color information. Modern multisyncs require analog input. Ain't happening. Besides, modern multisyncs will probably only sync down to original "low-res" VGA hsync frequencies (31.5khz). The 2K outputs 24-26khz, I don't remember exactly. There are a number of hurdles to overcome to get something like that working with a modern monitor. As a side note, I've requested info on the scan doubler made by Princeton. It allowed you to use a CGA card with one of their monitors that took ~400 lines of res like a 2K. I guess it was a good idea for people who had a CGA card, intended to upgrade it at some point, but avoid obsolescence w/the monitor. The reason I decided on buying a multisync right off. I guess I could contact Princeton... And the other thing that would be nice is a way to convert a ttl signal to analog. Doesn't sound too hard to me... ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 1 19:53:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 18:53:54 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Nov 2006 23:23:14 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > [...] The Versatec V80 electrostatic printer is another odd beast -- it > builds up a charge image on special paper and then flows liquid toner > over it (yes, I have one, and not just beacuae it was one printer > supported on the PERQ). Tektronix also made a very weird printer for its 40x0 graphics terminals. The paper is silver-coated! For some of these weird printers, the devices survive but its impossible to find media that still works. The silver paper has a shelf life that makes me think my partial roll is useless. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 1 19:53:09 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:53:09 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I had an old Multi-Sync 2 monitor which had a 9-pin (DE9) for TTL and a 9-15 pin adapter dongle. I remember using it on an old IBM and a Compaq with a VGA card. I know I don't have the monitor but I'll have to look in my "stock" for the adapter and see what's in it. You are right, though. The T2K sync frequencies are very low...26.4k I think, but I'd have to check my notes. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 8:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > > > I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy > 2000 that doesn't have a > color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 monochrome). > I've read that you could > use a third-party (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor > like the old NEC > Multi-Sync, but I was wondering if a modern VGA > monitor could be used if I > made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. > > > > Thanks for any hints. Sorry dude. The T2K and most things from that era output ttl (digital) color information. Modern multisyncs require analog input. Ain't happening. Besides, modern multisyncs will probably only sync down to original "low-res" VGA hsync frequencies (31.5khz). The 2K outputs 24-26khz, I don't remember exactly. There are a number of hurdles to overcome to get something like that working with a modern monitor. As a side note, I've requested info on the scan doubler made by Princeton. It allowed you to use a CGA card with one of their monitors that took ~400 lines of res like a 2K. I guess it was a good idea for people who had a CGA card, intended to upgrade it at some point, but avoid obsolescence w/the monitor. The reason I decided on buying a multisync right off. I guess I could contact Princeton... And the other thing that would be nice is a way to convert a ttl signal to analog. Doesn't sound too hard to me... ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 1 20:07:04 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:07:04 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005101c6fe23$979b84e0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> This thread summarizes the issue... http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=4554 Indeed, a series of DACs would be needed to convert the T2K TTL to analog for modern monitors but it doesn't solve the scanning frequency. I get there's an app note on Analog Devices or National's Web sites... Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 8:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > > > I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy > 2000 that doesn't have a > color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 monochrome). > I've read that you could > use a third-party (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor > like the old NEC > Multi-Sync, but I was wondering if a modern VGA > monitor could be used if I > made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. > > > > Thanks for any hints. Sorry dude. The T2K and most things from that era output ttl (digital) color information. Modern multisyncs require analog input. Ain't happening. Besides, modern multisyncs will probably only sync down to original "low-res" VGA hsync frequencies (31.5khz). The 2K outputs 24-26khz, I don't remember exactly. There are a number of hurdles to overcome to get something like that working with a modern monitor. As a side note, I've requested info on the scan doubler made by Princeton. It allowed you to use a CGA card with one of their monitors that took ~400 lines of res like a 2K. I guess it was a good idea for people who had a CGA card, intended to upgrade it at some point, but avoid obsolescence w/the monitor. The reason I decided on buying a multisync right off. I guess I could contact Princeton... And the other thing that would be nice is a way to convert a ttl signal to analog. Doesn't sound too hard to me... ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 20:20:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 18:20:26 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <4548E56A.23661.4C69FE63@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2006 at 20:53, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I had an old Multi-Sync 2 monitor which had a 9-pin (DE9) for TTL and a 9-15 > pin adapter dongle. I remember using it on an old IBM and a Compaq with a > VGA card. I know I don't have the monitor but I'll have to look in my > "stock" for the adapter and see what's in it. > > You are right, though. The T2K sync frequencies are very low...26.4k I > think, but I'd have to check my notes. There were several of these types of monitors. Mitsubishi had a few DiamondScan models that had RGB BNC connectors, as well as TTL and analogue connections--and there were a few switches on the rear of the unit to select what was what, along with different adapter cables. I still have one that I use with a PAL VHS VCR and a decoder to watch my old tapes of the Edinburgh Tattoo... Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 1 20:27:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:27:30 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <4548E56A.23661.4C69FE63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <4548E56A.23661.4C69FE63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> I just read some post on the 'net regarding an adapter as possible: "Converting CGA digital RGBI signals to VGA analogue signal just takes few resitors. That matches the RGB signals from digital to analogue. Been there, done that." This smells funny. Is that all it would take? A double-scan converter is typically $100 and has many more components (for example http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/1488.html) Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Nov 2006 at 20:53, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I had an old Multi-Sync 2 monitor which had a 9-pin (DE9) for TTL and a 9-15 >> pin adapter dongle. I remember using it on an old IBM and a Compaq with a >> VGA card. I know I don't have the monitor but I'll have to look in my >> "stock" for the adapter and see what's in it. >> >> You are right, though. The T2K sync frequencies are very low...26.4k I >> think, but I'd have to check my notes. > > There were several of these types of monitors. Mitsubishi had a few > DiamondScan models that had RGB BNC connectors, as well as TTL and > analogue connections--and there were a few switches on the rear of > the unit to select what was what, along with different adapter > cables. > > I still have one that I use with a PAL VHS VCR and a decoder to watch > my old tapes of the Edinburgh Tattoo... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 1 20:53:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 20:53:21 -0600 Subject: sources for older bipolar proms, etc. Message-ID: <010f01c6fe2a$11425840$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Since several people have asked... the last batch of 82S131's I bought was from www.arcadechips.com I also exchanged a few emails with the proprietor. He was very helpful, overly considerate... and emailed me after the order came just to make sure I got it and it was all to my satisfaction. I gotta give this guy a high rating. Prices were good too. As an additional resource, I have also bought fairly large (to me) quantities of the above (and similar) proms from another place at www.mikesarcade.com I received the same unusually high level of service and good prices from the second source as well. Jay West From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 1 21:35:19 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:35:19 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <004601c6fe1c$5cf2c030$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <493501c6fe2f$ebf94de0$0501a8c0@liberator> It's not stock but couldn't you use an ISA VGA card and monitor on it? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:15 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: New monitors on old machines All: I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy 2000 that doesn't have a color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 monochrome). I've read that you could use a third-party (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor like the old NEC Multi-Sync, but I was wondering if a modern VGA monitor could be used if I made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. Thanks for any hints. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Nov 1 21:52:29 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 03:52:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <45411545.3733.2DAE0E78@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200610270117.VAA26774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45411545.3733.2DAE0E78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You can see how BCD and EBCDIC codes line up with punch codes and why > the strange gaps in the alpha sequence are present: > > http://homepages.cwi.nl/~dik/english/codes/80col.html That's a really usefull site. Thanks for posting it, I'll keep it bookmarked. Alexey From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 00:39:38 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 23:39:38 -0700 Subject: FYI: Data General 9-track tape drive (looks like Nova colors?) Message-ID: Lot description: Pic: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 2 01:11:55 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 23:11:55 -0800 Subject: Possible DEC terminals on GovLiq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45499A3B.2050209@sbcglobal.net> Collins terminals in "A" condition. Looks like re-badged DEC terminals. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1020422&convertTo=USD Bob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 2 02:51:21 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 08:51:21 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <20061101235411.B90D3585B4@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/06 23:54, "Bryan Pope" wrote: >> Yep, but only for items relating to my museum. The one thing I don't >> actively pick up is printers because they're so generic. An exception is if >> a particular printer was matched to or had to be used on a particular >> machine. >> > > The printer for the Coleco Adam comes to mind... Correct, another example is the electrostatic Sinclair ZX Printer or the dot matrix that matched the Apple Lisa, or the rebadged and repainted Epson generic that was resold by Memotech to match their MTX series machines..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 2 02:59:11 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 08:59:11 +0000 Subject: "All in one" Early PCs In-Reply-To: <4548CA95.3311.4C012FE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/06 00:25, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 1 Nov 2006 at 16:08, Chris M wrote: > >> Nah, it was an NCR AI1 peecee I saw. At the time I >> had thought it was some weird pseudo-compatible (I >> knew of the PC4, but assumed they had something Intel >> based prior to that, as alot of other outfits did. > > Well, it's not listed in my PC Tech Journal 86/87 or 87/88 product > guides, so it either was later than that, stillborn, or very rare. For us Yurpeens how about the Schneider EuroPC, an Intel 8088 based wedge running DOS. I've realised the pictures on my website are small and poor! Simply add monitor for all your DOS based needs. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Schneider/europc.php -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 2 02:41:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 02:41:13 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4549AF29.9050509@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 1/11/06 17:54, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > >> Sadly it went to landfill about 5 years ago (although I did try to get rid of >> it on here first!). On a brighter note I've since stumbled across an identical >> machine at Bletchley though - although I've not yet seen any software or >> manuals for that one either! > > Hahahaha, would that be the Advance86 I've just posted about? :D heh heh :) I thought it funny that you mentioned Ferranti too. But no, this was a much larger machine in a white metal case - it's not one I've ever seen mentioned in any text about Ferranti before. I'd wondered if the white machine was some weird forerunner, but if the text on www.old-computers.com is right then the Advance 86 developed out of a much smaller home machine and retained the original board alongside a newer expansion board - the white-cased Ferranti's innards look much more as though they were designed for the purpose. Anyone got images of the Advance 86's internals just so I can be sure? I'd probably remember enough to know if there was shared circuitry if I saw some photos. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 08:13:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:13:44 -0600 Subject: DEC Unibus 4-SLU (ACT 10015000) Message-ID: <000501c6fe89$1f4889a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> I posted about this board before and one or more people said they had one. Now I'm curious if anyone has documentation for it :) This is a 3rd party quad height unibus board and appears to be a 4 port SLU. The manufacturer is ACT, and the only part numbers I can find on the board are 10015000, 10015001, and 10015002. There are 4 rotary dials (my guess is baud rate), and one 10 position switch bank (priority & address?). I'm curious what all the dip switch settings are, can it start at the normal console address and thus replace an M7856, does it have an LTC capability, etc. Pinouts for the port (berg) connectors would be good. I can't seem to find anything about it on bitsavers or googling. Any pointers appreciated! Jay West From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 2 09:12:17 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:12:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC Unibus 4-SLU (ACT 10015000) In-Reply-To: <000501c6fe89$1f4889a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000501c6fe89$1f4889a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, Jay West wrote: > I posted about this board before and one or more people said they had one. > Now I'm curious if anyone has documentation for it :) I didn't notice the first posting. I have an ACT Model 10028, also called QuadrAsync/E. I guess that your card is an ACT 10015. Have a look at http://www.able.com/wizzk.html, your card must be a QuadrAsync/B or QuadrAsync/C. My card is a hex board with four fingers and a gap for a Unibus jumper at location AB. > This is a 3rd party quad height unibus board and appears to be a 4 port SLU. > The manufacturer is ACT, and the only part numbers I can find on the board > are 10015000, 10015001, and 10015002. ACT is Able Computer Technology, Inc. > There are 4 rotary dials (my guess is baud rate), and one 10 position switch > bank (priority & address?). I'm curious what all the dip switch settings are, > can it start at the normal console address and thus replace an M7856, does it > have an LTC capability, etc. Pinouts for the port (berg) connectors would be > good. The pinout of the Berg connectors are the same as for the DL11-E cards: Berg 3M Signal ------------------------- UU 1 GND VV 2 GND5F TT 3 +5Vdc DD 15 DTR V 23 RTS J 33 RxD F 35 TxD FF 14 Secondary TxD X 22 Ring Ind. BB 18 Carrier Detect T 26 CTS JJ 12 Secondary RxD The rotary dials select the baud rates for each of the four channels. The positions are: 1 9600 2 4800 3 2400 4 1200 5 600 6 300 7 150 8 75 I'm afraid I can't help with the DIP switch settings because my card has four switches, one for the address, one for the vector and two for options (parity, word length and stop bits). My card doesn't have a LTC. Christian From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 2 09:25:52 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:25:52 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> -------------Original Message: From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Discussion of large systems No matter how you cut it, sorting on tape beat sorting cards on unit record equipment... Cheers, Chuck --------------Reply: Mind you, an 082/083 sorter with cards feeding across and dropping into their compartments is as much a part of the "old computer" image as spinning tape reels... And considering the cost of CPU time and the fact that input data was still on punched cards in most cases, it was usually more efficient and cost-effective to still sort the cards off-line and then copy/merge to/with tape. Ah, fond memories of carrying stacks of 5-6000 cards across the room to the collator (or, later, the high-speed card reader), not to mention the inevitable day when you bumped into someone and scattered half a megabyte of data across the data centre floor and under the machinery; now _that_'s fragmentation! m From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 09:47:02 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:47:02 -0600 Subject: DEC Unibus 4-SLU (ACT 10015000) References: <000501c6fe89$1f4889a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <002a01c6fe96$26b678c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > I didn't notice the first posting. I have an ACT Model 10028, also called > QuadrAsync/E. Aha... that gives me upon further googling... http://www.kuno.de/kunden/kch/able.htm Which indicates I have a QuadrAsync/B (4 DL11-B's, EIA data lines only). Nifty. Googling further doesn't show jumper settings. I may call Able and ask 'em. Jay From asholz at topinform.de Thu Nov 2 10:16:18 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:16:18 +0100 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> What about a classiccmp wiki? Andreas From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 10:19:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:19:43 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:16:18 +0100. <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> Message-ID: In article <454A19D2.2000305 at topinform.de>, Andreas Holz writes: > What about a classiccmp wiki? I think someone tried to make such a "knowledge base" once but it was dubious.... go back and read the "washing keyboards in the dishwasher" thread :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From blairrya at msu.edu Thu Nov 2 10:20:50 2006 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 11:20:50 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> Message-ID: <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya@msu.edu> On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:16:18 +0100 Andreas Holz wrote: > What about a classiccmp wiki? Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/ -Ryan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 10:21:07 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:21:07 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> Message-ID: <454A1AF3.8030909@gmail.com> Andreas Holz wrote: > What about a classiccmp wiki? Want it? Start it! http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 10:28:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:28:53 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> Message-ID: <00f101c6fe9c$02756880$6700a8c0@BILLING> Andreas wrote... > What about a classiccmp wiki? It was discussed at great length and started many long (at times argumentative) threads. I decided not to do it. However, I need to go back and check with the person who was working on the classiccmp website and see if a wiki was in my plans as I honestly don't recall at the moment. Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 10:29:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:29:25 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:20:50 -0500. <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya@msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya at msu.edu>, Ryan Blair writes: > Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/ The problem with this is that everything goes through one person. Often times individuals on here get too busy to do anything in a timely fashion, myself included. I have no problem with "you have to be approved before you can do anything" type system, but having everything go through one person isn't really workable. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 10:31:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:31:44 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: Message-ID: <00fc01c6fe9c$6b4512c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > I think someone tried to make such a "knowledge base" once but it was > dubious.... go back and read the "washing keyboards in the dishwasher" > thread :-). www.classiccmp.org/kb I wouldn't say it's completely useless. It sure could use more contributions. I was going to give it a facelift, but was still waiting on the website programmer who wanted to redo it. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 10:36:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:36:16 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:29:25 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > > In article <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya at msu.edu>, > Ryan Blair writes: > > > Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/ > > The problem with this is that everything goes through one person. > [...] To clarify: A real /wiki/ has a user database where users can register and then contribute organically to the content without having to go through someone else. This "kb" doesn't have any sort of user system. There are plenty of freely available collaborative content management systems out there, see for instance. I've used drupal (worked fine) and attempted to use xoops (too little documentation, buggy). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 10:37:59 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:37:59 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: Message-ID: <011501c6fe9d$44613660$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > The problem with this is that everything goes through one person. > Often times individuals on here get too busy to do anything in a > timely fashion, myself included. > > I have no problem with "you have to be approved before you can do > anything" type system, but having everything go through one person > isn't really workable. Ok, perhaps you can clarify something for me then. Submissions to the knowledge base are (unfortunately) few and far between. So how is waiting for the approval of a post to the knowledge base a problem when there is not a flood of posts to it? More to the point, remember that the knowledge base is NOT meant to be a discussion forum. For that, moderating every post would be a major pain. But it is NOT meant to be a discussion forum. It's meant to be a repository for specific answers and information that come up frequently. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 10:39:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:39:42 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> <454A1AF3.8030909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012401c6fe9d$80ea7f10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Sridhar wrote.... > Want it? Start it! > > http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia Just as an FYI - I really do not wish for people to gate the posts/traffic here elsewhere without talking to me about it first. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 10:43:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:43:15 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: Message-ID: <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > A real /wiki/ has a user database where users can register and then > contribute organically to the content without having to go through > someone else. This "kb" doesn't have any sort of user system. I'm not going to hash this whole war again. It comes up about once a year when someone unfortunately steps in it. Every time it was discussed, the list membership at large generally felt that a wiki was not a good forum for the type of discussion that occurs on the mailing list. You are trying to fault the knowledge base because it is not a wiki. It was never intended to be a wicki. You are comparing apples and oranges. A knowledgebase and a wiki are to entirely different things. The knowledgebase was not intended to be a wiki or act like a wiki or fill the role of a wiki. And a wiki was decided against. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 2 05:47:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 05:47:14 -0600 Subject: Mac II's available (Cradley Heath / West Midlands, UK) Message-ID: <4549DAC2.7020505@yahoo.co.uk> Just had this offer from someone: "I am having a clear out and have a couple of Mac IIs, 2 good colour monitors and various peripherals including a b/w laserwriter and scanner." We've got all the Apple stuff that we need (with the exception of a Lisa 1 ;) but maybe someone else on the list can rescue these. They're free for pickup from Cradley Heath - yell at me off-list if you want them and I'll pass on contact details... cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 10:50:04 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:50:04 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <012401c6fe9d$80ea7f10$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> <454A1AF3.8030909@gmail.com> <012401c6fe9d$80ea7f10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454A21BC.50106@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Sridhar wrote.... >> Want it? Start it! >> >> http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia > > Just as an FYI - I really do not wish for people to gate the > posts/traffic here elsewhere without talking to me about it first. Who said anything about gatewaying anything? Starting a wiki doesn't imply gatewaying traffic or forwarding messages or anything else. It just means starting a website anyone can edit that contains articles. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 10:38:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:38:06 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:31:44 -0600. <00fc01c6fe9c$6b4512c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00fc01c6fe9c$6b4512c0$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I wouldn't say it's completely useless. No, I wouldn't say that either. > It sure could use more > contributions. See my other comments -- I know that when I look at that, I'm not interested in contributing because I have to go through someone else. > I was going to give it a facelift, but was still waiting on the website > programmer who wanted to redo it. Why reinvent the wheel? Its not like there are no freely available, well maintained and robust alternatives. Deploy something from that list I just posted. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 10:42:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:42:13 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:37:59 -0600. <011501c6fe9d$44613660$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <011501c6fe9d$44613660$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Ok, perhaps you can clarify something for me then. Submissions to the > knowledge base are (unfortunately) few and far between. So how is waiting > for the approval of a post to the knowledge base a problem when there is not > a flood of posts to it? You misunderstand me -- I'm saying I have no problem with "I approve this user to have the power to make edits" to prevent spammers from signing up and filling the place with ads that someone has to go and actively remove. However, once approved to make edits, I can submit and edit to my heart's content. > More to the point, remember that the knowledge base is NOT meant to be a > discussion forum. For that, moderating every post would be a major pain. But > it is NOT meant to be a discussion forum. It's meant to be a repository for > specific answers and information that come up frequently. Non sequitur. I didn't say anything about a discussion forum. However, generally wikis allow comments on articles by others, although this can certainly be disabled if you just want articles with no comments. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 10:53:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:53:18 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:43:15 -0600. <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I'm not going to hash this whole war again. It comes up about once a year > when someone unfortunately steps in it. I'm not trying to start a war :-). I'm just saying why I personally haven't bothered to contribute to the "kb" and why the existing "kb" isn't a wiki. Me personally I'm happy with searching the list archives or just asking. But then the archive searcher has its own availability problems... > [...] You are trying to fault the knowledge base because it is > not a wiki. Not at all, I'm just saying that it isn't a wiki. > It was never intended to be a wicki. That's good, because it isn't one :-). > and oranges. A knowledgebase and a wiki are to entirely different things. > The knowledgebase was not intended to be a wiki or act like a wiki or fill > the role of a wiki. And a wiki was decided against. Fine by me. I don't find the kb thing useful anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From asholz at topinform.de Thu Nov 2 10:56:06 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:56:06 +0100 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki, OK pls. Stop any further Discussion! In-Reply-To: <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454A2326.2040001@topinform.de> Ok, sorry for my posting. Please stop any further diskussion! Andreas From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 2 06:01:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 06:01:43 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061101201643.57937.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061101201643.57937.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4549DE27.80000@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> ...whilst the impression I've got of the US was that >> people were far more willing >> to upgrade systems reasonably frequently to whatever >> the latest thing >> available was. > > I think the problem with endlessly upgrading an older > machine was getting support somewhere down that road. > Software issues come to mind. Older hardware can get > goofy too, so unless you have an ee degree, it's > probably often more cost effective to toss the old > system (for businesses at least). I think the > disposable pc is alot more of a reality today then in > the 80's though. Yep. I certainly get the impression that there was a lot more fault-finding and fixing going on the the UK than the US, though. People were far more reluctant to invest money in a machine in the UK unless they could mess around with it at the hardware level and stand a chance of fixing any problems themselves (which is probably a reflection on UK society as a whole back then, rather than being limited to computing) >> In education, yes. Not so much for home or business >> use, though. What >> timeframe are we talking - say 1982 to 1985 or so? > > The Nimbus probably came out in o about '85. I don't > know alot about any of their other products The other products were far nicer :-) (By calling the Nimbus 'nasty' in my other post I meant simply to imply that it was rather uninteresting, not that there was anything particularly horrible about it) > just that they're still around. Yes, they're one of the few surviving UK computer companies from the 80s. Quite possibly the *only* one, although I'm sure someone can come up with other examples (there are a few brand-names still about, but they've been through all sorts of takeovers and buy-outs that mean they really don't count :-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 11:04:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:04:10 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4549B48A.17837.4F9313F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2006 at 10:25, M H Stein wrote: > And considering the cost of CPU time and the fact that input data was > still on punched cards in most cases, it was usually more efficient and > cost-effective to still sort the cards off-line and then copy/merge to/with > tape. I suppose that relibility was about the same--the chance of creating a mangled card in unit-record gear was probably about the same as that of mangling it in a 1442. > Ah, fond memories of carrying stacks of 5-6000 cards across the room > to the collator (or, later, the high-speed card reader), not to mention the > inevitable day when you bumped into someone and scattered half a > megabyte of data across the data centre floor and under the machinery; > now _that_'s fragmentation! Not to mention the joy of loading trays of cards holding your magnum opus onto an I/O cart and watching the clerk racing with it across the raised computer floor hit a loose filler strip... :) Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 2 11:24:30 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:24:30 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:20:50 EST." <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200611021724.kA2HOUrM005985@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ryan Blair wrote: >On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:16:18 +0100 >Andreas Holz wrote: > >> What about a classiccmp wiki? > >Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/ That's nice, but it's a not a wiki. The magic of a wiki is that there is a community which keeps it current and accurate. The "zen" is that you don't try to make it perfect, and a you accept that people will add broken, bogus things. You treat is as a garden which needs constant tending... and I actually think it would work given the group of people here. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 2 11:27:30 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:27:30 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:37:59 CST." <011501c6fe9d$44613660$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200611021727.kA2HRUXH006707@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: > >Ok, perhaps you can clarify something for me then. Submissions to the >knowledge base are (unfortunately) few and far between. So how is waiting >for the approval of a post to the knowledge base a problem when there is not >a flood of posts to it? I think people are much more apt to post if they can do it right away and immediately see their text and then edit it again. I know I am. >It's meant to be a repository for >specific answers and information that come up frequently. and that's exactly what good wiki's become... but there is no one person in charge... which is why it works so well. the user feels empowered, which is quite motivating. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 2 11:29:17 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:29:17 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:43:15 CST." <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200611021729.kA2HTIWS007394@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: ... >The knowledgebase was not intended to be a wiki or act like a wiki or fill >the role of a wiki. And a wiki was decided against. Not to be argumentative, but you sound exactly like someone who's never really participated in a wiki-centric community. If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you like it. -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 2 11:47:20 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:47:20 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611021729.kA2HTIWS007394@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611021729.kA2HTIWS007394@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <454A2F28.1060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: > Not to be argumentative, but you sound exactly like someone who's never > really participated in a wiki-centric community. > > If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you like it. Well I like email-lists ( other than send.me.spam :) ) since I don't have to navigate thru a web site. How soon do you expect the wiki will have 'Pee Cee' stuff on it, my guess is 15 minutes or a sex ad posted. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 11:53:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 11:53:36 -0600 Subject: Unibus 4-SLU ACT 10015 switch settings References: <000501c6fe89$1f4889a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <019101c6fea7$d4cf5970$6700a8c0@BILLING> Regarding the ACT - Able Computer Technologies - 4 SLU board model 10015 Quadrasync/B Able just gave me the switch settings: Switch 4 - Address Selection A10 2 - A09 5 - A08 1 - A07 6 - A06 3 - A05 7 - Vector Bit 08 10 - 07 9 - 06 8 - 05 And if you add what Christian wrote below... that's complete docs for the board (less schematics of course ;) ).. I'm certainly left wondering how one sets word structure though. Christian wrote.... > The pinout of the Berg connectors are the same as for the DL11-E cards: > > Berg 3M Signal > ------------------------- > UU 1 GND > VV 2 GND5F > TT 3 +5Vdc > DD 15 DTR > V 23 RTS > J 33 RxD > F 35 TxD > FF 14 Secondary TxD > X 22 Ring Ind. > BB 18 Carrier Detect > T 26 CTS > JJ 12 Secondary RxD > > The rotary dials select the baud rates for each of the four channels. The > positions are: > 1 9600 > 2 4800 > 3 2400 > 4 1200 > 5 600 > 6 300 > 7 150 > 8 75 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 2 11:54:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:54:13 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <454A2F28.1060301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200611021729.kA2HTIWS007394@mwave.heeltoe.com> <454A2F28.1060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:47 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Not to be argumentative, but you sound exactly like someone who's >> never >> really participated in a wiki-centric community. >> If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you >> like it. > > Well I like email-lists ( other than send.me.spam :) ) since I > don't have to navigate thru a web site. How soon do you expect the > wiki will have 'Pee Cee' stuff on it, my guess is 15 minutes or > a sex ad posted. Yep. It's rare for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki transition. Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they tend to attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web browser is "how you access the Internet". ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 2 12:07:36 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:07:36 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:54:13 EST." Message-ID: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yep. It's rare for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki >transition. Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they >tend to attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web >browser is "how you access the Internet". ;) That's a good point. I guess what I'd like to see is something like the gumstix wiki. I place where I could go find lots of "how I solve my pdp-11/44 unibus problem" articles. Or "here's a list of places which sell those hard to find proms you want"... Not a place for discussion, a place to put text and links which are relevant to the list. maybe it's a bad idea, but it sure seems like it could work. -brad From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Nov 2 12:13:29 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:13:29 -0500 Subject: DEC Unibus 4-SLU (ACT 10015000) Message-ID: Jay West wrote: > I posted about this board before and one or more people said they had one. > Now I'm curious if anyone has documentation for it :) Ooh, if only you had asked me a few years ago! > This is a 3rd party quad height unibus board and appears to be a 4 port SLU. > The manufacturer is ACT, and the only part numbers I can find on the board > are 10015000, 10015001, and 10015002. These were very common for 20 years as DL11-alikes. You might have better luck if you identified the manufacturer as "Able" instead of "ACT". They call it a "Quadrasync". Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 12:17:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:17:46 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <01e401c6feab$41a1bfe0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Brad wrote..... > I guess what I'd like to see is something like ... snip ... > where I could go find lots of "how I solve my pdp-11/44 unibus > problem" articles. Or "here's a list of places which sell those hard to > find proms you want"... > > Not a place for discussion, a place to put text and links which are > relevant to the list. That is exactly what a knowledge base is ;) Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 2 12:21:32 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:21:32 -0700 Subject: DEC Unibus 4-SLU (ACT 10015000) Message-ID: I've just uploaded the quadrasync and quadrasync/e manuals to bitsavers.org/pdf/able From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 2 13:23:59 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:23:59 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200611021800.kA2I0GOr080977@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611021800.kA2I0GOr080977@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8BC0FEEF-9D41-4F33-BB65-33024FDF776B@microspot.co.uk> On 2 Nov, 2006, at 18:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the >>> multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's >>> Art of Computer Programming? >> >> >> That would be six, I believe. But, why? Just to say one did it? >> In today's world, the way to implement the same algorithm would be to >> use disk files; MUCH faster. With a TERABYTE of screaming fast disk An ICT 1301 can support up to eight half inch tape decks. I actually have 13 decks in total, though currently I only have three of them running. Only one of them can both read and write, though that is the next thing on the list to be sorted out. We need to write an 'All Ones' tape to re- calibrate the read amplifiers (ten per deck). Then hopefully we will not be relying on the error correction circuitry to correct the single bit errors we are currently getting almost all the time. Maybe next year I could get six or seven decks working but our priority is to read the libraries of software recorded on the very old tapes. Surprisingly this seems to be possible, we have already read some data off a tape written 30 years ago or more. At only 300 frames per inch the bits are so much bigger they are less likely to degrade (I hope). There is an engineer's facility to 'Read All Tracks' which we will use to read the entire tape, hopefully without stopping and send all 40MB to a parallel port we are building with a built in FIFO. The data will then hopefully be captured onto a modern machine. We will repeat this two or three times on different decks and then analyse the data to produce the original (up to 10MB of data per reel). There may be some digits we will not be sure of due to multiple bit failures in a single frame, but we will at least know which ones they are. The regular read hardware just says which blocks have one of more frames with multi bit failures. I am hoping to extend the computer room, get both my 1301s assembled and have all 13 decks in a row. There's no plans yet to get the second 1301 running but I want to get it at least bolted together whilst there is a glimmer of a memory in my head as to how to do it. I have a quite a few years to go before senility (I hope), but it is already 30 years since I took that beast apart and the ink on the labels I carefully applied has now faded away to almost nothing. There will be room for a small exhibition of other stuff, props used in the making of the 'Darling Buds of May', some old Apple computers, ][, ][e, ///, Lisa and some older Macs, plus a mechanical calculator, a wind up gramaphone, a 19th century pounds shillings and pence till made by NCR, an Eddison drum (grooves not magnetic) dictating machine and player, and maybe some stuff which is currently in my office, an HP7475 plotter, a big old HP DraftMaster MX+ plotter and various other items I have not had the heart to throw in the skip over the years. Oh and my UK101 computer maybe. It'll only be open one day a year to the general public when we hold a classic car show at the farm. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 2 12:30:22 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:30:22 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: Surprisingly this seems to be possible, we have already read some data off a tape written 30 years ago or more. At only 300 frames Per inch the bits are so much bigger they are less likely to degrade (I hope). There is an engineer's facility to 'Read All Tracks' which we will use to read the entire tape, hopefully without stopping and send all 40MB to a parallel port we are building with a built in FIFO. The data will then hopefully be captured onto a modern machine. -- If you are interested, I could probably get you one of these when they're available http://bitsavers.org/tools/wizl/tapewizl/ Paul Pierce built something similar to what you did for recovering 7-track data, and discovered that you really need to recover the data using analog techniques to get any reliability. http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/proj.html From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Nov 2 13:28:59 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terminal needed for commercial shoot this Saturday in NYC Message-ID: Some TV bonehead (I've come to realize that anyone who works in TV is a bonehead) e-mailed me last night to tell me he "desperately" needs a "cool looking" computer terminal for a commercial shoot this weekend. If anyone has a terminal they think looks "cool" and would like to earn some cash, e-mail me prontolitiously. Do not reply to this message because I'm not subscribed to the list. If you do reply even after having just been told that I'm not subscribed, you too will be deemed a bonehead. Contact me directly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 2 13:38:04 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:38:04 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <01C6FE8C.E0448020@mse-d03> ------------Original Message: From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Discussion of large systems >On 2 Nov 2006 at 10:25, M H Stein wrote: > And considering the cost of CPU time and the fact that input data was > still on punched cards in most cases, it was usually more efficient and > cost-effective to still sort the cards off-line and then copy/merge to/with > tape. I suppose that relibility was about the same--the chance of creating a mangled card in unit-record gear was probably about the same as that of mangling it in a 1442. ------------Reply: Reminds me of my very first night working in a unit record shop: Was running an invoicing job on a 402 with a 514 punching the new summary cards; loaded the feed hoppers with cards and went upstairs for a smoke and a chat with my new boss. Came back down to reload the hoppers about a half hour later, but there were only two or three cards punched in the 514 instead of the 200 or so expected, and one card sticking out from under the machine cover. Opened the cover and the other 197 or so cards literally exploded out of the machine, torn, accordioned and with nice black stripes where they'd passed through the drive gears into the machine's innards instead of into the output stacker. Figured it was going to be a good place to work when the boss joined me in the keypunch room and helped with finding and putting the torn fragments back together in order to manually repunch them. Got pretty good at reading cards that night... m From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 2 13:47:52 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 19:47:52 +0000 Subject: Mac II's available (Cradley Heath / West Midlands, UK) In-Reply-To: <4549DAC2.7020505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 2/11/06 11:47, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > We've got all the Apple stuff that we need (with the exception of a Lisa 1 ;) > but maybe someone else on the list can rescue these. They're free for pickup > from Cradley Heath - yell at me off-list if you want them and I'll pass on > contact details... Don't expect me to yell, she mailed me first and I passed her onto you :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 2 13:59:42 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:59:42 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200611021800.kA2I0GOr080977@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611021800.kA2I0GOr080977@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 2 Nov, 2006, at 18:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > The Versatec V80 electrostatic printer is another odd beast -- it > builds up a charge image on special paper and then flows liquid toner > over it (yes, I have one, and not just beacuae it was one printer > supported on the PERQ). We used to have a V80 on long term loan from Versatec so we could develop a 'GreenSheet' interface card for the NuBus slots in the older Macs along with driver software to drive their wide (up to six foot) electrostatic and Laser printers. It never gave us any problems, so few moving parts to give trouble. I wonder, can you still get the bottles of toner or do you mix your own? On the subject of peripherals, my 1301 has a card reader, card punch, line printer, paper tape reader (Elliott type) and a non standard paper tape punch (Teletype BRPE). I'm not sure if the drums really count as peripherals, but I have two connected, 12000 words by 48 bits and of course the mag tape drives from my recent e-mail. The second machine has card reader, card punch, printer, one drum and more tape decks (13 in total). More modern, I have an Apple Imagewriter 2 and some of the older Apple parallel printers made by C.Itoh to connect to the Apple 3 and the Lisa. Shortly before I joined the list we chucked out one of the original Apple Laserwriters and their DaisyWheel printer. They both still worked but took up too much space (and the LaserWriter made a lot of Ozone). If anyone has one of the old HP electrostatics printers (A1 size or D size to the guys in the states), I still have some bits from it, the ink pump, the big transformer and some rollers. I have quite a few manuals for pen plotters and some printers from the eighties if anyone is lacking a manual for their plotter. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 14:04:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:04:47 -0600 Subject: DEC Unibus 4-SLU (ACT 10015000) References: Message-ID: <02c001c6feba$287a6580$6700a8c0@BILLING> Al wrote... > I've just uploaded the quadrasync and quadrasync/e manuals to > bitsavers.org/pdf/able You ROCK! :) J From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 2 14:17:08 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:17:08 -0800 Subject: Apple Laserwriters Message-ID: <454A5244.9030601@msm.umr.edu> I saw a mention of the laserwriters by Roger Holmes in his posting, and remembered I have some to get rid of as well. I have them in Anaheim, Ca. They are free take if you pick them up. Probably no interest for the same reason he chucked his (size and ozone) but better to ask before the act. I originally planned to use them with older sun systems, since they could substitute for the Sun laserwriters, but since have gone to the freebie ghostscript stack to print what .ps files I need. The larger sun laserwriters were fast and clean, but not for the faint hearted to set up. The apple writers matched the lower end ones with the movement similar to the HP laserwriter 2's. I'm also inclined to chuck the Laserwriter 2 I have, if there is interest in that. The Apple laserwriters are untested. The Laserwriter moves paper, but is in need of attention to work. Jim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 14:27:10 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:27:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <493501c6fe2f$ebf94de0$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <20061102202710.77220.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> no, the 2000 has a proprietary expansion bus. Dang wouldn't that be nice though *sniffly* --- Geoff Reed wrote: > It's not stock but couldn't you use an ISA VGA card > and monitor on it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:15 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts' > Subject: New monitors on old machines > > All: > > > > I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy > 2000 that doesn't have a > color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 monochrome). > I've read that you could > use a third-party (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor > like the old NEC > Multi-Sync, but I was wondering if a modern VGA > monitor could be used if I > made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. > > > > Thanks for any hints. > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > Collector of classic computers > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > Web site: > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 14:38:11 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:38:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <4549DE27.80000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061102203811.86783.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Yep. I certainly get the impression that there was a > lot more fault-finding > and fixing going on the the UK than the US, though. > People were far more > reluctant to invest money in a machine in the UK > unless they could mess around > with it at the hardware level and stand a chance of > fixing any problems > themselves (which is probably a reflection on UK > society as a whole back then, > rather than being limited to computing) I suppose, but this presents some degree of problem once they all seemed to start using custom logic. I have to conclude it was a cost based decision, but was any/all of this done by fab factories outside the country? Yes you can open up late model XT class machines and find a number of custom chips, the Victor VPCII comes to mind. The later Tandy 1000's also. But I for one in my earliest (limited) contemplations on what to buy leaned toward something where these were absent. Yet...the T2K had a few non-standard ic's, but not custom. If I had known about it, I suppose I could have stocked up while they were still available. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 14:47:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061102204723.35599.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > I had an old Multi-Sync 2 monitor which had a 9-pin > (DE9) for TTL and a 9-15 > pin adapter dongle. I remember using it on an old > IBM and a Compaq with a > VGA card. I know I don't have the monitor but I'll > have to look in my > "stock" for the adapter and see what's in it. Yes, all the early ones had 9-pin jacks more then likely, cuz VGA wasn't out yet or just came out (remember all the late EGA cards that kept bumping up the res, and features in general?). I do believe my NEC MII came with a VGA adapter though. I wounded up ripping it apart for some reason (project?). Damned things cost about 11 bucks. Some time later, I bought an astoundingly cheap VGA card at Computer Factory's sale in Middletown, NY. About $20. I think the maker was NSI... Anyway, I do have one weirdo of a Sony monitor that although has a 9 pin jack, only syncs to VGA analog? Sony's first multisyncer (which is what I thought this thing was when I bought it at Goodwill or somewhere) was an improvement over NEC's in at least one respect - it supported 600 lines of resolution, where the NEC only was 'sposed to go to 560. > You are right, though. The T2K sync frequencies are > very low...26.4k I > think, but I'd have to check my notes. Yeah, that sound about right on. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From erik at baigar.de Thu Nov 2 14:52:16 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:52:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: Cosmac 1802 Evaluation Kit Rev 2 Message-ID: Hi Cosmac experts, recently I got hands on a Cosmac 1802 Evaluation Kit Rev 2 (CDP18S020). There is a a "Cosmac CDP18S021 Micro Terminal" as well. I want to restore this kit and would be very happy to get hands on a user manual with schematics for this! Google did not bring up the desired result. In powering up the unit, the 1802 executes "Wait for DMA or IRQ (0x00)" permanently and thus the micro terminal stays black as well. There is a firmware ROM CDPR522 on the unit and all datasheets are available on the www. Only the chip labeled "RCA 640" within the micro terminal are mystic, but a schematic might help here, too. Any hints where to get the user manual or a copy of it? Best regards, Erik. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 15:04:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:04:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061102210442.64647.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > I just read some post on the 'net regarding an > adapter as possible: > "Converting CGA digital RGBI signals to VGA analogue > signal just takes > few resitors. That matches the RGB signals from > digital to analogue. > Been there, done that." I seem to remember something about RS-170 style video being 1 volt peak to peak or .7 volts peak. "P2P" seems to indicate a signal that is half negative going? Would have to do more research, but if not, maybe a resistor would do the job (i.e "convert" 5 volts to a correspodingly "high" analog voltage, as mentioned). The older broadcast monitors were designated RS-170 (those with seperate color inputs) I do believe. Maybe modern VGA signals and whatnot are also compatible. One problem...what do you do with the Intensity input (older TTL monitors are not RGB, they're RGBI). > This smells funny. Indeed it might. Why don't you give it a try and let us know Jim LOL LOL. Keep the ol' fire extinguisher nearby though. > Is that all it would take? A > double-scan converter > is typically $100 and has many more components (for > example > http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/1488.html) That thing seems to do it all (for CGA freqs anyway). But double scanning and voltage conversion are 2 separate issues. I ain't spending $141 for such a thing anytime soon. If you can use the divide and conquer method, figuring out how to double all the 2000's outputs (yielding 800 line, in terms of frequency, video), then do the voltage conversion. Then pump it all into yer 19" KDS you bought for 80 bucks at Walmart. All of the 2000 outputs are TTL level signals (hmm sync too? But at least they're "digital", or maybe close to square waves anyway). So it's doubled sync signals would be compatible with a new monitor, then there's the voltage conversion. Then there's the Intensity issue. Oi ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 15:05:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:05:32 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102204723.35599.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz>, <20061102204723.35599.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4549ED1C.16148.50700BBD@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2006 at 12:47, Chris M wrote: > Anyway, I do have one weirdo of a Sony monitor that > although has a 9 pin jack, only syncs to VGA analog? > Sony's first multisyncer (which is what I thought this > thing was when I bought it at Goodwill or somewhere) > was an improvement over NEC's in at least one respect > - it supported 600 lines of resolution, where the NEC > only was 'sposed to go to 560. > If that's the 1302, I've got the service manual and schematics. It'll do VGA, but not anything beyond 800x600. I bought mine at WCCF sometime in the 80's and paid about $600 for it and thought I was getting a real bargain. The thing had an unbelieveably thick IEC power cord. I mostly used it with the Everex Micro Enhancer EGA cards and briefly with a Paradise VGA until I went to surplus fixed-frequency workstation monitors. Still have the EGA cards, but heaven only knows why. Times have changed... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 15:19:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:19:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <4549ED1C.16148.50700BBD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061102211950.12804.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > If that's the 1302, I've got the service manual and > schematics. > It'll do VGA, but not anything beyond 800x600. I just don't understand why it has a 9 pin connector. I'm sure NO VGA card ever did. And apple's were all 15 pin (like old ethernet). > I mostly used it with the Everex Micro Enhancer EGA > cards and briefly > with a Paradise VGA until I went to surplus > fixed-frequency > workstation monitors. What were you driving those with? They readily worked with Macs, indeed many were "Mac" monitors (RasterOps, E-machines...) or rebadged Sony OEMs. I remember guys running out and buying 486 mobos with PCI slots so they could plug in a fixed frequency card (SVGA, but everything came out usually @ ~64khz). With alot of those cards in the mid to late 90s, you could play with the refresh and sync polarities to your heart's content, so you could get some functionality with a standard SVGA card. Occasionally something was funky, in my limited estimation the video signals were too narrow (or wide) or something. I first learned of this stuff from a book by this guy from New Hampshire ("the Cheap VGA Book", not so wisely named). But most of what he talked about were earlier models that worked with base VGA frequencies (31.5khz). Never found one of those. Johnson I believe was his last name. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 2 15:26:38 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:26:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200611022131.QAA29406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> It's rare for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki transition. >> Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they tend to >> attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web browser >> is "how you access the Internet". ;) > That's a good point. Especially given the nature of the community in this case. If it's rare even for unrelated communities to survive an attempted transition from email to wiki, just imagine what kind of attrition rate you'd have in a community that self-selects for old-school-ness. I certainly know that to *me*, a wiki is about as useful as any other webpage - which is to say, only minimally; I definitely would be among those lost if classiccmp goes that way. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 2 15:35:00 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:35:00 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102210442.64647.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061102210442.64647.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200611021635.00801.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 02 November 2006 16:04, Chris M wrote: > I seem to remember something about RS-170 style video > being 1 volt peak to peak or .7 volts peak. "P2P" > seems to indicate a signal that is half negative > going? Would have to do more research, but if not, > maybe a resistor would do the job (i.e "convert" 5 > volts to a correspodingly "high" analog voltage, as > mentioned). Peak-to-peak means the difference between the maximum and minimum voltage of the signal. Something that ranges from + 5V to +10V above "ground" would be "5V" P2P, but a 10V peak signal. In the case of RS-170 video, it's -0.4V - 1.0V, so 1.4V p-p or 1.0V peak. > The older broadcast monitors were designated RS-170 > (those with seperate color inputs) I do believe. Maybe > modern VGA signals and whatnot are also compatible. > One problem...what do you do with the Intensity input > (older TTL monitors are not RGB, they're RGBI). RS-170 is US baseband video without color. RS-170A is US baseband video with color (NTSC). (525-line, 3.579545 MHz colorburst frequency, 59.94 fields per second, 29.97 frames per second). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 15:36:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:36:49 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102211950.12804.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4549ED1C.16148.50700BBD@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061102211950.12804.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4549F471.18085.508CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2006 at 13:19, Chris M wrote: > I just don't understand why it has a 9 pin connector. > I'm sure NO VGA card ever did. And apple's were all 15 > pin (like old ethernet). This was very pre-VGA. However, the monitor could take either analogue RGB or TTL RGBI levels. The fact that it worked with VGA when it came out was pretty much happy coincidence. This was not unusual on multisync monitors of that era. > What were you driving those with? They readily worked > with Macs, indeed many were "Mac" monitors (RasterOps, > E-machines...) or rebadged Sony OEMs. There was (maybe "is") an outfit that offered ISA and PCI cards with modified firmware to handle the sync issues. You just took a 15- pin to 5-BNC cable, set a jumper on the board and you were in business. I just gave away a 20" Sony with a Mirage card recently. I think it used a Tsenglabs ET6000 chipset. Earlier Mirage cards used one of the S3 chipsets. The cards would also work with RGB+HV separate sync monitors as well as SOG. I've still got a 17" HP/Sony monitor stashed away. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 2 15:40:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:40:33 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611022131.QAA29406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200611022131.QAA29406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200611021640.33250.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 02 November 2006 16:26, der Mouse wrote: > I certainly know that to *me*, a wiki is about as useful as any other > webpage - which is to say, only minimally; I definitely would be > among those lost if classiccmp goes that way. Jesus. Can we all stop bitching??? NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A WIKI, AND STOP BEING A MAILING LIST. NO ONE. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 15:49:00 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:49:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611021635.00801.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20061102214900.51745.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Peak-to-peak means the difference between the > maximum and minimum > voltage of the signal. Something that ranges from > + 5V to +10V > above "ground" would be "5V" P2P, but a 10V peak > signal. > > In the case of RS-170 video, it's -0.4V - 1.0V, so > 1.4V p-p or 1.0V > peak. Well that's encouraging. I was thinking in terms of sine waves and such, which have a peak to peak voltage, and in that case, half of the cycle is below ground. I was under the impression that measuring such a signals "peak" voltage was an rms value, but I guess I botched that up too :) > > The older broadcast monitors were designated > RS-170 > > (those with seperate color inputs) I do believe. > Maybe > > modern VGA signals and whatnot are also > compatible. > > One problem...what do you do with the Intensity > input > > (older TTL monitors are not RGB, they're RGBI). > > RS-170 is US baseband video without color. RS-170A > is US baseband video > with color (NTSC). (525-line, 3.579545 MHz > colorburst frequency, 59.94 > fields per second, 29.97 frames per second). So RS-170 has nothing to do with the amplitude of the signals? Or should I ask to specify something as RS-170 compatible/compliant. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 15:52:06 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:52:06 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com><200611022131.QAA29406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611021640.33250.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <049b01c6fec9$3ba098a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Patrick wrote.... > NO ONE. You know, over my years of hosting this list... I have noticed that there is a set of single-word topics that always cause an uproar on the list. These magical words seem to stimulate arguments, shouting, cursing, pleas for calm... and general angst. This set of "trigger words" seems to also magically recur on roughly a yearly basis. In an effort to promote peace and harmony, I will set the list to automatically send any posts that contain these trigger words to "/dev/null". Some examples of these words would be: Reply-To, Wiki, classic, off-topic, blog, politics, and 'jay west'. (and if anyone doesn't realize that the above is meant to be a humorous tongue-in-cheek joke, your posts to that effect WILL be dev/null'd *grin*) Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 2 15:54:04 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:54:04 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102214900.51745.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061102214900.51745.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200611021654.05012.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 02 November 2006 16:49, Chris M wrote: > --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Peak-to-peak means the difference between the > > maximum and minimum > > voltage of the signal. Something that ranges from > > + 5V to +10V > > above "ground" would be "5V" P2P, but a 10V peak > > signal. > > > > In the case of RS-170 video, it's -0.4V - 1.0V, so > > 1.4V p-p or 1.0V > > peak. > > Well that's encouraging. I was thinking in terms of > sine waves and such, which have a peak to peak > voltage, and in that case, half of the cycle is below > ground. I was under the impression that measuring such > a signals "peak" voltage was an rms value, but I guess > I botched that up too :) > > > > > RS-170 is US baseband video without color. RS-170A > > is US baseband video > > with color (NTSC). (525-line, 3.579545 MHz > > colorburst frequency, 59.94 > > fields per second, 29.97 frames per second). > > So RS-170 has nothing to do with the amplitude of the > signals? Or should I ask to specify something as > RS-170 compatible/compliant. Sure it does. Read what you replied to above again... Or, go to http://google.com type in "RS-170" and hit search... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 15:55:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:55:57 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102214900.51745.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200611021635.00801.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20061102214900.51745.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4549F8ED.24366.509E3501@cclist.sydex.com> Mirage still seems to be around offering their video cards, but it seems that they're concentrating mostly on HDTV: http://www.mirage-mmc.com/index.php?cPath=358 Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Nov 2 16:01:13 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:01:13 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611021640.33250.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <001e01c6feca$69b11660$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > > NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A WIKI, AND > STOP BEING A MAILING LIST. > > NO ONE. Starting Monday, it will only be available via WAIS. > > Pat From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:01:29 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <4549F471.18085.508CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061102220129.59592.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > This was very pre-VGA. However, the monitor could > take either > analogue RGB or TTL RGBI levels. Not the monitor I have though. Unless I was doing something wrong, it only played nice with analog VGA. Hence my astonishment over the 9 pin connector. > The fact that it > worked with VGA > when it came out was pretty much happy coincidence. > This was not > unusual on multisync monitors of that era. There were other cards floating around, namely the Professional Graphics Adapter/Controller (analog and darn near VGA in terms of sync frequencies). Were any of the late EGA cards analog? Something tells me so. Besides the PGA and it's clones, were there any other high end analog cards for a peecee about that time? > There was (maybe "is") an outfit that offered ISA > and PCI cards with > modified firmware to handle the sync issues. You're right. "They" did make ISA cards too. Ran about $150 IIRC. There was an example of scan doubling. There was no way you could get 640 x 480 VGA on a 60-68khz monitor w/o it. 31.5khz x 2 = 63 khz. Overscan went up or down to compensate I guess. > You > just took a 15- > pin to 5-BNC cable, set a jumper on the board and > you were in > business. Yep. I never owned one of those cards. I used to find certain IBM badged Sonys that were particularly exquisite...from $10 to $100, and even older then the GDM-1950s. Something with that quality at the time would run, o a grand probably. > The cards would also work with RGB+HV separate sync > monitors as well > as SOG. I've still got a 17" HP/Sony monitor > stashed away. Still got about 6 or 7 in all, 2 of the 17" HPs. One runs at ~64khz, the other ~48khz. Then there's those dopey Sun units that are all washed out (from use) and much newer then my older stash. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 2 15:02:11 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:02:11 -0400 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102211950.12804.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200611022202.kA2M2nIG020994@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:19:50 -0800 (PST), Chris M wrote: >--- Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If that's the 1302, I've got the service manual and >> schematics. >> It'll do VGA, but not anything beyond 800x600. > I just don't understand why it has a 9 pin connector. >I'm sure NO VGA card ever did. And apple's were all 15 >pin (like old ethernet). >> I mostly used it with the Everex Micro Enhancer EGA >> cards and briefly >> with a Paradise VGA until I went to surplus >> fixed-frequency >> workstation monitors. > What were you driving those with? They readily worked ....... I used mine to evaluate autocad drivers and video cards. Any EGA card with a second clock or an external clock board added could go 640x480 and many could do 800x600 with a good Multiscan montor. Just my 2 cents Bob From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 16:04:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:04:05 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: <001e01c6feca$69b11660$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <04bb01c6feca$da408c30$6700a8c0@BILLING> Julian wrote... > Starting Monday, it will only be available via WAIS. Except the archives, which will only be accessible via Gopher. Jay From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 2 16:06:44 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:06:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki Message-ID: <200611022206.kA2M6hAs021171@keith.ezwind.net> --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > > > > NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A > WIKI, AND > > STOP BEING A MAILING LIST. > > > > NO ONE. > > Starting Monday, it will only be available via WAI S. > Huh?! I hope you are joking Julian, as it is Jay in charge of this list. I have no desire to move to Wiki. I enjoy reading emails from the list. Can we *please* stop acting like kids? As I figure (forgive me if I'm wrong) it most of you guys are in your 50's/60's. The only exceptions I know of are myself (27, before you ask) and Cameron Kaiser (Cameron, I got a copy of Robert Bernardo's footage from both CommVEx 2005 & 2006 and would like to say that even though I don't own a C64 I love the intro to Geotrope). Sheesh...... Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:07:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:07:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611021654.05012.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20061102220743.49029.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > So RS-170 has nothing to do with the amplitude of > the > > signals? Or should I ask to specify something as > > RS-170 compatible/compliant. > > Sure it does. Read what you replied to above > again... I left out the most important part, are new monitors RS-170 compliant? But never mind, I'll look it up. > Or, go to http://google.com type in "RS-170" and hit > search... So many choices. And you do realize you'r implying that perhaps I should be working for Google, given I'm such an effective researcher... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Nov 2 16:09:01 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:09:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <001e01c6feca$69b11660$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001e01c6feca$69b11660$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, Julian Wolfe wrote: >> >> NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A WIKI, AND >> STOP BEING A MAILING LIST. >> >> NO ONE. > > Starting Monday, it will only be available via WAIS. I want Archie! Actually, I had to look up Archie to remember what it was, but there seems to be a menu buried deep in my subconscious memory where WAIS and Archie were adjacent menu items (thus thinking of WAIS immediately brought Archie up). I wonder on what box (or in what year) I last saw said menu? Alexey From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 2 16:12:16 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:12:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Laserwriter select paper tray Message-ID: I have a paper tray for an Apple Laserwriter Select, free for price of postage. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Nov 2 16:17:46 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:17:46 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <004601c6fe1c$5cf2c030$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <001f01c6fecc$b9d3d950$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> You can use a scandoubler such as the ones found here: http:/www.converters.tv There are several models to choose from that would serve your purpose. It's up to you if you want to spend real money on it though. It's a freakin Tandy 2000. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:15 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: New monitors on old machines > > All: > > > > I have a question. I'm getting a Tandy 2000 that > doesn't have a color monitor (it comes with a VM-1 > monochrome). I've read that you could use a third-party > (i.e., non-Tandy) color monitor like the old NEC Multi-Sync, > but I was wondering if a modern VGA monitor could be used if > I made a 9-pin to 15-pin adapter. > > > > Thanks for any hints. > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > Collector of classic computers > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:14:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <00fc01c6fe9c$6b4512c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061102221423.42302.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... > > I think someone tried to make such a "knowledge > base" once but it was > > dubious.... go back and read the "washing > keyboards in the dishwasher" > > thread :-). > > www.classiccmp.org/kb > > I wouldn't say it's completely useless. It sure > could use more > contributions. Well...Beats tough dirt fast! Don't knock it until you've tried it. And I'm not responding based on the article, but the thread which appeared ~3 months ago. But that had more to do with submerging the unit in a soapy mix, rather then tossing it in the washer. And not a hint of soap scum! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 16:14:55 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:14:55 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611022206.kA2M6hAs021171@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611022206.kA2M6hAs021171@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <454A6DDF.8070100@gmail.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Huh?! I hope you are joking Julian, as it is > Jay in charge of this list. I have no desire to > move to Wiki. I enjoy reading emails from the > list. > > Can we *please* stop acting like kids? As I > figure (forgive me if I'm wrong) it most of you > guys are in your 50's/60's. The only exceptions > I know of are myself (27, before you ask) > and Cameron Kaiser (Cameron, I got a copy > of Robert Bernardo's footage from both > CommVEx 2005 & 2006 and would like to say > that even though I don't own a C64 I love > the intro to Geotrope). Now who's acting like a kid? Chill out. Peace... Sridhar From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:26:26 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200611020714.kA27DgpO073153@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061102222626.2401.qmail@web50513.mail.yahoo.com> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenising routine into the ROM. > > > > > > So how do you distinguish 'calculator' from 'computer'? > > They work better as a door jam. :) > > Except that a common name for the ZX81 over here was the 'black > doorwedge' :-) > > -tony That's what Commodore used them for: "Under this steady promotional blitz [of the C64], plus a trade-in option that offered a $100 rebate on any other computer or video game console (a clever New York chain called Crazy Eddy started selling the cheap Timex Sinclair 1000, an Americanised Sinclair ZX-81, for $10 so that users could get the rebate; Commodore donated most of them to charity but kept some, reportedly, for doorstops!), sales skyrocketed and the C64 eclipsed its older sibling within a short time." http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/history.html ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New Yahoo.com (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 16:26:31 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 11:26:31 +1300 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> References: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <4548E56A.23661.4C69FE63@cclist.sydex.com> <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 11/2/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > I just read some post on the 'net regarding an adapter as possible: > "Converting CGA digital RGBI signals to VGA analogue signal just takes > few resitors. That matches the RGB signals from digital to analogue. > Been there, done that." > > This smells funny. Is that all it would take? A double-scan converter > is typically $100 and has many more components (for example > http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/1488.html) It depends on the level of precision you require and if the target VGA monitor handles RGBI scan frequencies. So... start with a multisync that can handle the requisite sync frequency from your RBGI-equipped CPU. Something like an old NEC-3D can sync down to the NTSC range (~15KHz horizontal). You might or might not need to invert hsync and vsync (I did to attach an Amiga to an RGBI monitor). Now that you have sync taken care of, you can worry about R, G, and B. In essence, an older VGA monitor is expecting an analog signal on each of 3 color pins, but RGBI is a 4-bit digital interface. It shouldn't be hard to use sets of resistors to make a simple, if imprecise, DAC to turn 4 digital bits into 16 analog levels on the 3 color pins (the "I" bit controls intensity of all three channels simultaneously, such that if your RGBI pattern is 1111 vs 1110, it's white vs gray (I can't remember if "I asserted" means full intensity or half, but worst case, if you have it backwards, it's not hard to invert a TTL signal to flip the sense of the "I" bit before it goes into your "DAC"). Worst case, you could start by ignoring "I" and have an 8-color output from RGB(I) to VGA... just work out the necessary resistance to drop TTL levels down to the high end of what the VGA monitor is expecting (0.7VDC == max intensity?) If you want to be able to tweak the color balance, one could just use 3 variable resistors that can span the range near the value you would have used for each fixed resistor. I haven't tried to do this myself, so I can't supply specific values, but an oscilloscope would be a handy tool if you wanted to build a simple 8-color (no "I") resistor-based TTL->VGA analog "DAC" - get your sync issues solved first, then put a variable resistor on, say, Green first, then get the computer to display a green screen, then set the resistor so you have approximately 0.7V showing as the peak voltage on the green line. Repeat for Red and Blue. Voila... digital RGB on an analog VGA monitor. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 16:28:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:28:26 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611022202.kA2M2nIG020994@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20061102211950.12804.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <200611022202.kA2M2nIG020994@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <454A008A.30355.50BBF0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2006 at 17:02, Bob wrote: > I used mine to evaluate autocad drivers and video cards. > Any EGA card with a second clock or an external clock board added could > go 640x480 and many could do 800x600 with a good Multiscan montor. The Everex could also do MGA (DIP switch set monitor type) as well as the normal CGA modes, as well as 16x640x480. I don't recall if it could do 800x600--I'd have to check. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 2 11:32:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:32:03 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611021640.33250.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200611021807.kA2I7a5R011064@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200611022131.QAA29406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611021640.33250.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <454A2B93.1020201@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A WIKI, AND STOP BEING A > MAILING LIST. who are you calling a mailing list!? :-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 16:33:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:33:48 -0800 Subject: SCSI-I cables; 10Base2 cables Message-ID: <454A01CC.28260.50C0DB10@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a bunch (maybe 10) of the 50 pin blue-ribbon connector SCSI- 1 cables. Most are about a foot long, though some are longer. I've also got a bunch of 10base2 50 ohm RG-58/U coax cables with BNC's on each end. Several are 10 foot, a couple are longer. Heck, I'll even throw in a bunch of terminators and tees. Anyone interested in the whole lot for the cost of postage? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 2 16:41:34 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:41:34 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <04bb01c6feca$da408c30$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001e01c6feca$69b11660$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <04bb01c6feca$da408c30$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454A741E.2060109@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Julian wrote... >> Starting Monday, it will only be available via WAIS. > > Except the archives, which will only be accessible via Gopher. And download searches with Archie? Doc, who misses Archie From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:48:18 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:48:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611021757.kA2HvCDk080894@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061102224818.31236.qmail@web50507.mail.yahoo.com> > On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:47 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> Not to be argumentative, but you sound exactly like someone who's > >> never > >> really participated in a wiki-centric community. > >> If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you > >> like it. > > > > Well I like email-lists ( other than send.me.spam :) ) since I > > don't have to navigate thru a web site. How soon do you expect the > > wiki will have 'Pee Cee' stuff on it, my guess is 15 minutes or > > a sex ad posted. > > Yep. It's rare for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki > transition. Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they > tend to attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web > browser is "how you access the Internet". ;) > > -Dave And I think that if those wanting classiccmp to "go wiki" would try some classic computer searches at wikipedia.org (assuming they haven't already done so), they'd find that there's already a tremendous amount of technical and historical information there with more easily added by anyone who desires to. And, of course, new topics can be created if some system you have expertise on isn't represented. Of course, I might be misunderstanding their request since I'm not familiar with wiki sites being used as substitutes for email groups. Perhaps there's some great advantage of which I'm not aware. However, since the wiki topic has apparently been discussed here before at length and didn't meet with approval, I'll go with those previous conclusions. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 2 16:48:56 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:48:56 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:17:46 CST." <01e401c6feab$41a1bfe0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200611022248.kA2Mmurr001833@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >Brad wrote..... >> I guess what I'd like to see is something like ... snip ... >> where I could go find lots of "how I solve my pdp-11/44 unibus >> problem" articles. Or "here's a list of places which sell those hard to >> find proms you want"... >> >> Not a place for discussion, a place to put text and links which are >> relevant to the list. > >That is exactly what a knowledge base is ;) True. But I can't just go edit it and add my content easily and "make a little part of it my own"... I think that's what makes Wiki's work so well. People feel invested in the content. -brad From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:52:24 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:52:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061102225224.38840.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > So... start with a multisync that can handle the > requisite sync > frequency from your RBGI-equipped CPU. Something > like an old NEC-3D > can sync down to the NTSC range (~15KHz horizontal). that's the whole problem though. Those monitors are difficult to find. What I wouldn't do for one of the early 19" NEC multisyncs... > Worst case, you could start by ignoring "I" and have > an 8-color output > from RGB(I) to VGA... In essence, the intensity is "ignored" already with the T2K. It displays 8 simultaneous colors from a palette of 16. Whether the native palette causes the intensity to default to high or low, I don't know. > just work out the necessary > resistance to drop > TTL levels down to the high end of what the VGA > monitor is expecting > (0.7VDC == max intensity?) Sounding more and more feasible. Problem is the sync issues need to be worked out first. > If you want to be able to tweak the color balance, > one could just use > 3 variable resistors that can span the range near > the value you would > have used for each fixed resistor. I haven't tried > to do this myself, > so I can't supply specific values, but an > oscilloscope would be a > handy tool if you wanted to build a simple 8-color > (no "I") > resistor-based TTL->VGA analog "DAC" - get your sync > issues solved > first, then put a variable resistor on, say, Green > first, then get the > computer to display a green screen, then set the > resistor so you have > approximately 0.7V showing as the peak voltage on > the green line. > Repeat for Red and Blue. Voila... digital RGB on an > analog VGA > monitor. Ok, we're on the same page then. Sounds like it just might work. I had this whole problem so complicated in my head until today. Uy ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New Yahoo.com (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 2 16:54:52 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:54:52 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:26:38 EST." <200611022131.QAA29406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200611022254.kA2MsrR0004252@mwave.heeltoe.com> der Mouse wrote: > >I certainly know that to *me*, a wiki is about as useful as any other >webpage - which is to say, only minimally; I definitely would be among >those lost if classiccmp goes that way. btw, I'm not recommending or advocating getting rid of the mailing list. Wiki's are not interactive and don't promote discussion. I think a wiki would be a nice adjunct. It could become something like an "annotated bitsavers" if we all put things there. But it certainly would not replace the mailing list. -brad From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 2 16:56:05 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:56:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki Message-ID: <200611022256.kA2Mu5QW022992@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jim Battle wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > ... > > Can we *please* stop acting like kids? As I > > figure (forgive me if I'm wrong) it most of you > > guys are in your 50's/60's. The only exceptions > > I know of are myself (27, before you ask) > > and Cameron Kaiser (Cameron, I got a copy > > of Robert Bernardo's footage from both > > CommVEx 2005 & 2006 and would like to say > > that even though I don't own a C64 I love > > the intro to Geotrope). > > > > Andrew -- > > There are many people (hundreds) under 50 on this > list. A couple years > ago there was a thread about demographics. You > should also be aware > that there are > 1000 people on the list, even if > most don't post very > often. > Ahhh, ok. *feels this >< big* I didn't know the list had >1000 members. I thought it was more around the 500 mark. Either way, it's still alot of people. That said, the demographics have probably changed slightly. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 16:58:36 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:58:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <454A2B93.1020201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061102225836.40327.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A > WIKI, AND STOP BEING A > > MAILING LIST. > > who are you calling a mailing list!? :-) Wow, I missed all the good stuph. Looked like a great fight. Pat looks sooo pissed LOL LOL. And I was going to say, what's wrong with a wiki type knowledge base thing as an addendum to the list. What's say ye we compromise fellas? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 17:03:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:03:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <200611022254.kA2MsrR0004252@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20061102230342.65957.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brad Parker wrote: > I think a wiki would be a nice adjunct. It could > become something like > an "annotated bitsavers" if we all put things there. > > But it certainly would not replace the mailing list. > > -brad O man now BRAD has to add his 2 pence. LOL LOL *only kidding* What about one of those webring things, where whoever belongs to the ring is *responsible* for a topic (like shampooing keyboards) or group of them. Personalized web pages have more of an appeal I think, and would tend to more draw peeps in then stale old wiki articles. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 17:03:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 17:03:29 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki References: <200611022256.kA2Mu5QW022992@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <005401c6fed3$2f44f240$6700a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote.... > I didn't know the list had >1000 > members. I thought it was more around the > 500 mark. Either way, it's still alot of people. > That said, the demographics have probably > changed slightly. It may be closer to 2000 by now, I haven't counted up the subscriptions in quite some time. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 17:07:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:07:00 +1300 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102225224.38840.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061102225224.38840.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/3/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > So... start with a multisync that can handle the > > requisite sync frequency from your RBGI-equipped CPU. > > Something like an old NEC-3D > > can sync down to the NTSC range (~15KHz horizontal). > > that's the whole problem though. Those monitors are > difficult to find. What I wouldn't do for one of the > early 19" NEC multisyncs... I did miss the part about a "modern monitor". Sorry about that. You _would_ need some sort of scan doubler to get around that issue. Internal scan doublers were common with Amigas since the custom chipset was very NTSC or PAL-centric, not VGA-centric. The A3000 had one built-in, and there were several options for the video slot on an A2000. ISTR the price in the day for a scan doubler card was at least $150 - they entirely buffered a frame in local RAM and squirted it out at 31.5KHz on a VGA connector. Effective, but complicated. > In essence, the intensity is "ignored" already with > the T2K. It displays 8 simultaneous colors from a > palette of 16. Whether the native palette causes the > intensity to default to high or low, I don't know. Ah... didn't know the T2K was only 8 colors. > > just work out the necessary resistance to drop > > TTL levels down to the high end of what the VGA > > monitor is expecting (0.7VDC == max intensity?) > > Sounding more and more feasible. Problem is the sync > issues need to be worked out first. Naturally. I was simply thinking that the OP needed _some_ color monitor and might have access to a multisync that could scan to lower rates than VGA. > > If you want to be able to tweak the color balance, > > one could just use 3 variable resistors that can span the range near > > the value you would have used for each fixed resistor... > Ok, we're on the same page then. Sounds like it just > might work. I had this whole problem so complicated in > my head until today. Uy I did just remember there is one "exception" to the simple case I outlined... brown. We had a discussion here some months ago about how one of the IBM color monitors "knew" brown was funny and had some compensation circuit. I'll just restate that my suggestion is an approximation, and you might or might not be satisfied with the results - presuming you can locate an older multisync monitor in the first place. The general solution (using a 2006-era monitor) is likely to be an expensive route. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 2 16:11:03 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 15:11:03 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki Message-ID: > I think a wiki would be a nice adjunct. It could become something like > an "annotated bitsavers" if we all put things there. I have been thinking of something like that for a long time. There are lots of little tidbits I've collected on systems that aren't documents. A few show up in the 'pdf' directory because I think they're important (like histories and bibliographies). Problem is I have so many documents backlogged that I never get around to creating the commentary (with REFERENCES d**m it!). That's pretty much why I just update related entries on wikipedia and add pointers to the source documentation on bitsavers. This does bring up the point that expanding the wikipedia entries is a good thing too, and would have a wider audience than a specialty wiki. There is the start of a software related wiki on the Computer History Museum's Software Preservation SIG http://community.computerhistory.org/scc/scwiki But there isn't any content there yet. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 17:26:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 15:26:53 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: References: , <20061102225224.38840.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <454A0E3D.20411.50F174E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2006 at 12:07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I did just remember there is one "exception" to the simple case I > outlined... brown. We had a discussion here some months ago about how > one of the IBM color monitors "knew" brown was funny and had some > compensation circuit. I'll just restate that my suggestion is an > approximation, and you might or might not be satisfied with the > results - presuming you can locate an older multisync monitor in the > first place. The general solution (using a 2006-era monitor) is > likely to be an expensive route. Given that current NTSC equipment is starting to hit the landfill, it should be pretty easy to find an NTSC TV monitor for next to nothing (taking one to the landfill here will set you back about $15 for the disposal fee). Or one might even hack a TV set. Just an idea... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 17:28:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:28:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061102232808.64670.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > Internal scan doublers were common with Amigas... I also remember a product called a "flicke fixer", which in essence I guess was more of a field doubler then a scan-line doubler. Would still preclude the use of a stock 'Miga monitor I guess too, since the interlaced modes were the highest res (hmm but this would mean a single monitor could do both non- and interlaced video). Uy > I did just remember there is one "exception" to the > simple case I > outlined... brown. We had a discussion here some > months ago about how > one of the IBM color monitors "knew" brown was funny > and had some > compensation circuit. I'll just restate that my > suggestion is an > approximation, and you might or might not be > satisfied with the > results - presuming you can locate an older > multisync monitor in the > first place. The general solution (using a 2006-era > monitor) is > likely to be an expensive route. Nah, the 2K never did brown (nor did the bulk of non IBM monitors IIUC). But if that big brown donkey game was written in BASIC, it could be ported to the 2K easily. hmmmm Shouldn't be very expensive at all if the methods mentioned here are applicable. Of course there's the scan doubling. That also doesn't sound too daunting, and if I could ever get a hold of a Princeton Scan Doubler, it's likely to become a whole lot easier. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Nov 2 17:47:31 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:47:31 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: References: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <005001c6fe21$a5a35b00$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <4548E56A.23661.4C69FE63@cclist.sydex.com> <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <454A8393.1090900@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to use sets of resistors to make a > simple, if imprecise, DAC to turn 4 digital bits into 16 analog levels > on the 3 color pins (the "I" bit controls intensity of all three > channels simultaneously, such that if your RGBI pattern is 1111 vs > 1110, it's white vs gray (I can't remember if "I asserted" means full > intensity or half, but worst case, if you have it backwards, it's not > hard to invert a TTL signal to flip the sense of the "I" bit before it > goes into your "DAC"). Unfortunately such a conversion would get color index #6 wrong (the one IBM deliberately darkened in the monitor). But you could account for that with an additional resistor, maybe? > Repeat for Red and Blue. Voila... digital RGB on an analog VGA > monitor. ...on an analog VGA monitor that scans down to 15.7KHz. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 2 18:37:21 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:37:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Classiccmp wiki, et al, for dummies... Message-ID: <5005.66.124.82.241.1162514241.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> All this fuss is idiotic. A knowledge base and a wiki are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. There was already a recent discussion about whether classiccmp should have a wiki, and the concensus was "not at this time" as Jay already noted. Further discussion is always welcome in an environment like cctalk, but geez, people should read up on the recent history before spouting about the same old things without adding anything new. Meanwhile lots of people are complaining that the existing KB is lame and sparse. Those people should sign off from their email and go add something constructive to the KB instead of critizing what Jay and others have already done for it. It's the fault of users, not the underlying technology, if nobody adds to the database -- no amount of CMS or wiki or anything else will help with that. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 17:24:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 23:24:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061102001139.31469.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 1, 6 04:11:39 pm Message-ID: > Sorry, I did mean IBM compatibles. Anyone familiar > with the innards of the Nimbus? I imagine there's some > uncommon stuph in it, but I was of the persuasion that > there wasn't "alot". I have a Nimbus somewhere, I think (well, it's a later RML machine with an Intel processor, is there anything else it could be?). I do remember at least one chip inside that seemed to be a ULA, probably in the video circuitry. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 17:32:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 23:32:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4548C9F5.30503.4BFEBCF0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 1, 6 04:23:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 1 Nov 2006 at 23:23, Tony Duell wrote: > > > While I would agree that most later impact dot-matrix printers are of > > little interest to me, there were some very odd machines out there that I > > find fascinating. The Sanders printers that did up to 8 pases of the > > printhead to produse very near letter quality output (one of the later > > ones of those was build on a DIablo 630 chassis, and the output is very > > much daisywheel quality, for all there's a 7 pin dot matrix head in > > there). > > Like the printer in this thing: > > http://www.sydex.com/durango/durango.html A bit. That's not a Sanders 700, though... AFAIK, all Sanders 700s were RO models, and didn't have a keyboard. > > Since it was pretty much Diablo people working on the printer in this > box, they knew about the Sanders work and developed their own > version, complete with downloadable and prop-spacing fonts. With a That was the main deficiency of the Sanders 700. Fonts came on ROM cartridges which plugged in in front of the carriage area. There was no way to download them (although the hardware had the Wr/ line on one pin of the cartridge slots, so a RAM cartridge would have been possible, AFAIK the firmware didn't support it). Still, it was an improvement on the older Sanders 12/7 (I have one of those too). That machine had the fonts on EPROMs that you plugged into one of the PCBs inside. Some ROM sockets took 2708s, some (3-rail) 2716s, some 2732s. You pretty much had to order the font on the right type of ERROM to fit whac sochets you had free... > film ribbon, it's very difficult to tell that a daisywheel didn't do > the printing. And you could print very large characters, unlike a > daisywheel. This one used a 9 wire printhead, however. The Sanders 700 electronics allowed for a 9 pin head -- I think that was called a Sanders 900 printer. I don't have one, though. > > It uses a dedicated 8085 on a Multibus-sized PCB, along with the CRT > controller. A second PCB holds all of the printhead drivers on a The Sanders 700 has 3 microprocessors in it. A Z8 for character input. A Z80 to format the lines, handle the fonts, etc. And another Z8 to control the mechanism. The main DRAM, hung off the Z80, is 9 bits wide. No, not 8 bits + parity, but a full 9 bits. For a 9 pin head, of course. The older 12/7 has just one Z80, but a lot of TTL + PROMs to drive the printhead. > long heat sink, along with the drivers for the carriage motor (a 48v > Litton DC motor with optical position encoder). I can't rememebr what the Sanders 700 uses. I know the paper feed and ribbon feed aare stepper motors, and I think the carriage feed is too. Certainly the 12/7 has stepper motors for carriage feed and paper feed (and an AC mains motor for ribbon feed). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 17:56:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 23:56:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102013034.34304.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 1, 6 05:30:34 pm Message-ID: > Sorry dude. The T2K and most things from that era > output ttl (digital) color information. Modern > multisyncs require analog input. Ain't happening. That is the least of your worries. Any reasonable monitor will have a 75 ohm input impedance and will expect a 1V-ish analogue video signal. TTL outputs are 5V-ish. So you need to drop 4V, so you need a resistor of 4*75 = 300 ohms. So if you connect a 300-ohm-ish resistor in series with each of the RGB signals, you can feed a TTL signal into an anlogue monitor. You only get 8 colours (if you have an I line too, like on a CGA connector, it's a bit more work to make use of it). But you will get a useable picture. It's a kludge, sure, but... > Besides, modern multisyncs will probably only sync > down to original "low-res" VGA hsync frequencies > (31.5khz). The 2K outputs 24-26khz, I don't remember That is the bigh problem. Converting a monitor to work at different (horizontal) rates ia a lot of work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 17:59:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 23:59:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 1, 6 06:53:54 pm Message-ID: > > Tektronix also made a very weird printer for its 40x0 graphics > terminals. The paper is silver-coated! For some of these weird Silver, or silver compounds? I thought it was a photographic process, using a 1-line CRT to expose the photographic paper. > printers, the devices survive but its impossible to find media that > still works. The silver paper has a shelf life that makes me think my > partial roll is useless. Indeeed. Thermal printers aren't too bad, since thermal fax paper normally works (it certainly works in the HP9866). Well, unless it's an HP7245 which used special sproketed thermal paper which seems to be unobtainium... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 18:02:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 00:02:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Nov 1, 6 08:27:30 pm Message-ID: > > I just read some post on the 'net regarding an adapter as possible: > "Converting CGA digital RGBI signals to VGA analogue signal just takes > few resitors. That matches the RGB signals from digital to analogue. > Been there, done that." > > This smells funny. Is that all it would take? A double-scan converter > is typically $100 and has many more components (for example > http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/1488.html) THe 'few resisotrs' will turn a CGA digital signal into an analogue RGB signal at the same scan rates. For example, you could feed it into the RGB intputs on a TV SCART socket. What the 'few resistors' don't do is convert the 15.7kHz CGA signal into a 31.2kHz VGA signal. If your display can handle the lower scan rates, then fine. If not, it's not going to work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 18:39:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 00:39:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 2, 6 07:59:42 pm Message-ID: > > > On 2 Nov, 2006, at 18:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > The Versatec V80 electrostatic printer is another odd beast -- it > > builds up a charge image on special paper and then flows liquid toner > > over it (yes, I have one, and not just beacuae it was one printer > > supported on the PERQ). > > > We used to have a V80 on long term loan from Versatec so we could > develop a 'GreenSheet' interface card for the NuBus slots in the older > Macs along with driver software to drive their wide (up to six foot) > electrostatic and Laser printers. It never gave us any problems, so > few moving parts to give trouble. I wonder, can you still get the I'm going to have to rebuild the platten roller in mine, the rubber has turned to glue. It's a suprisingly complicated roller (it's in 2 parts, wit ha differential gear between them), but recoating it should be no worse han doing any other machine. I've also had to unblock the toner pump on mine a few times. Doing this bu the 'suck it and see' method proved that Vesatec toner doesn't taste pleasent! > bottles of toner or do you mix your own? Good question. I know that 'white spirit' is a suitable substitute for the 'clear dispersant' mentioned in the service manual for cleaning/unblocking it, and that adding a little of said liquid to the rock-hard bottole of 'toner concnetrate' in my V80 got it useable again, but I've enver tried to make the toner from scratch. Any ideas if it's possible, and what to use? As regards electronics, there are those custom hybrids to drive the electrodes. But I have a set of boards that were pulled from another V80 with one dead electrode driver. So I've got a fair few spares. I even have a spare of the HPIB interface ULA (In case you've not seen this, the standard V80 had a custom parallel port, and I think an RS232 port as standard). There as a (3rd party?) option which was a PCB that fitted in place of the connector panel. It pluged into the parallel interface header on the backplane, and I think took power from the RS232 header. Said PCB contained 4 chips -- a couple of TTL parts, a stnadard HPIB talker/listenr chip(I frget the number, something like 91488), and a custom ULA-like thing. This was standard on ICL-badged V80s that went on the PERQ, which is what mine is). -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 2 18:32:11 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:32:11 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061102210442.64647.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> <20061102210442.64647.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061102182726.052a5170@mail> At 03:04 PM 11/2/2006, Chris M wrote: > I seem to remember something about RS-170 style video >being 1 volt peak to peak or .7 volts peak. "P2P" >seems to indicate a signal that is half negative >going? Wasn't there a lot of slop in the supposedly RS-170 that many 70s-80s computers were generating? There's the spec, and then there's the just-good-enough signal they'd generate by any hack that looked good on the expected type and quality of output monitor. - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 18:51:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061103005139.76170.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I have a Nimbus somewhere, I think (well, it's a > later RML machine with > an Intel processor, is there anything else it could > be?). They made loads of Intel based computers. Doesn't necessarily positively have to be a Nimbus I don't think... > I do remember > at least one chip inside that seemed to be a ULA, > probably in the video > circuitry. Well maybe it is a Nimbus then, being there's only 1 ULA...whatever a ULA is LOL > -tony > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 19:00:54 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:00:54 -0600 Subject: new email for william donzelli? Message-ID: <003b01c6fee3$89c75090$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Anyone know if William Donzelli change his email address? Everything I send there bounces... Jay From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 2 19:07:21 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 20:07:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone around tonight in VCF land? Message-ID: <5002.66.124.82.241.1162516041.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Arrived today from New Jersey. Staying in Mountain View. Open to meeting other collectors tonight / tomorrow for fun times, computer chat, drinks, etc. .... cell-able at 646-546-9999. - Evan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 19:12:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:12:13 +1300 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061102182726.052a5170@mail> References: <45495792.6050006@oldskool.org> <20061102210442.64647.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20061102182726.052a5170@mail> Message-ID: On 11/3/06, John Foust wrote: > Wasn't there a lot of slop in the supposedly RS-170 that > many 70s-80s computers were generating? There's the spec, > and then there's the just-good-enough signal they'd generate > by any hack that looked good on the expected type and quality > of output monitor. I've had that issue with the stock CDP1861 "Pixie" output from an Elf/VIP/etc... works fine on an older analog B&W monitor, but fails to produce a picture on anything resembling a modern RS-170-capable monitor (modern in this case is made after, say, 1985). Don't have a solution to that except to keep an ancient RCA mono monitor around. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 19:13:49 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 20:13:49 -0500 Subject: new email for william donzelli? In-Reply-To: <003b01c6fee3$89c75090$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003b01c6fee3$89c75090$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > Anyone know if William Donzelli change his email address? Everything I send > there bounces... If it is to the old osfn.org address, it will certainly bounce. OSFN is dead. If it is to this gmail account and bounces, then we have problems. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 19:23:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 17:23:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061103012305.6576.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > On 11/3/06, John Foust wrote: > > Wasn't there a lot of slop in the supposedly > RS-170 that > > many 70s-80s computers were generating? What slop factor are we talking about? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 20:25:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 19:25:53 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Nov 2006 23:59:26 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > Tektronix also made a very weird printer for its 40x0 graphics > > terminals. The paper is silver-coated! For some of these weird > > Silver, or silver compounds? I thought it was a photographic process, > using a 1-line CRT to expose the photographic paper. The catalog describes it as "Standard Dry-Silver, 500 ft. per roll". See: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 2 20:32:10 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:32:10 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061103012305.6576.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061103012305.6576.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061102202811.058e9df0@mail> At 07:23 PM 11/2/2006, Chris M wrote: >> On 11/3/06, John Foust wrote: >> > Wasn't there a lot of slop in the supposedly >> RS-170 that many 70s-80s computers were generating? > > What slop factor are we talking about? I would guess it has to do with older methods and hacks for generating the front-porch / sync / back-porch: http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3020 and that more modern TVs are less adaptable to non-conforming signals. - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 2 21:01:41 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:01:41 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: <001601c6fef4$66031070$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> test, please ignore Jay West From ray at arachelian.com Thu Nov 2 21:10:29 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:10:29 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454AB325.3010306@arachelian.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > Correct, another example is the electrostatic Sinclair ZX Printer or the dot > matrix that matched the Apple Lisa The ADMP? That later became the ImageWriter. It was the same C. Itoh printer as the ImageWriter, just with a parallel interface. The Lisa could use either that, or the Imagewriter, so it's not all that rare a printer. I believe the ADMP would also work with the Apple II's and possibly the III's - basically anything that could use the ProFile external hard drive should have been able to use the ADMP. It's funny, but even Win2K has drivers for the C. Ithoh printer. I suppose if you find one of the original ones and re-write it to match the Lisa/Apple II parallel port, it would probably work (or vice versa.) There was also a color inkjet printer for the Lisa by Canon I think - unfortunately I can't find any information about its protocol, nor does it have any drivers in common OS's. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 2 21:38:29 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: test In-Reply-To: <001601c6fef4$66031070$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Nov 2, 6 09:01:41 pm" Message-ID: <200611030338.kA33cT3j022764@floodgap.com> > test, please ignore > Jay West A Jay West test is best. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you live in a country run by committee, be on the committee. -- G. Summer From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 21:40:47 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:40:47 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <200611030338.kA33cT3j022764@floodgap.com> References: <200611030338.kA33cT3j022764@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <454ABA3F.6040009@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> test, please ignore >> Jay West > > A Jay West test is best. Should there be a Jay West best test fest? Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 2 22:19:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 21:19:15 -0700 Subject: anyone got xylogic terminal server cables? Message-ID: I have a terminal server (NIB) but it didn't come with any of the cabling for connecting a gaggle of serial devices to the server. I could always make one, but its pretty tedious. I'd consider buying them for a reasonable price from someone who has some they're not using. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 2 22:45:26 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 23:45:26 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <01C6FED9.112A9700@mse-d03> Another part of computing history that seems almost completely forgotten is ledger card systems, which is what many small offices (if they weren't doing things manually) were using before PCs came along and for quite a few years afterwards. With magnetic stripes on the back of the cards, paper tape I/O and/or high speed digital cassette drives, automatic feeder/stackers, (relatively) high-speed card readers, and datacomm capabilities, they were certainly true computers by any criterion. I recall one of my Burroughs L installations which would have 4 cassette drives randomly zipping back and forth (much quieter than your tape drives, actually quite pleasant to listen to) and an auto-reader going through a deck of ledger cards, while another set of cards was being fed into the printing console, stripe read and updated, printed (along with 2 reports being printed simultaneously on the same independent-dual-carriage 255x10cpi 2-colour dot-matrix printer), and stacked in the back, all without any operator intervention; fun to watch. I'll have to dig around & see if I can find the core memory card from an E series machine that I used to have lying around somewhere... m From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 23:17:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 21:17:50 -0800 Subject: Anyone around tonight in VCF land? In-Reply-To: <5002.66.124.82.241.1162516041.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <5002.66.124.82.241.1162516041.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <454A607E.9838.5232BFAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2006 at 20:07, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Arrived today from New Jersey. Staying in Mountain View. Open to meeting > other collectors tonight / tomorrow for fun times, computer chat, drinks, > etc. .... cell-able at 646-546-9999. - Evan Hmm, my wife's staying in Mountain View this weekend, but it's for a progressive dinner with our old bicycling club. Me, I've got a gig this weekend, so I'm stuck up here in Eugene, making like a bachelor. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 2 23:38:16 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 00:38:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone around tonight in VCF land? In-Reply-To: <454A607E.9838.5232BFAB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5002.66.124.82.241.1162516041.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <454A607E.9838.5232BFAB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5081.66.124.82.241.1162532296.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > On 2 Nov 2006 at 20:07, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Arrived today from New Jersey. Staying in Mountain View. Open to >> meeting >> other collectors tonight / tomorrow for fun times, computer chat, >> drinks, >> etc. .... cell-able at 646-546-9999. - Evan > > Hmm, my wife's staying in Mountain View this weekend, but it's for a > progressive dinner with our old bicycling club. Me, I've got a gig > this weekend, so I'm stuck up here in Eugene, making like a bachelor. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > So... are you suggesting I call your wife? ;) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 23:55:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 21:55:28 -0800 Subject: Anyone around tonight in VCF land? In-Reply-To: <5081.66.124.82.241.1162532296.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <5002.66.124.82.241.1162516041.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net>, <454A607E.9838.5232BFAB@cclist.sydex.com>, <5081.66.124.82.241.1162532296.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <454A6950.7616.52553376@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2006 at 0:38, Evan Koblentz wrote: > So... are you suggesting I call your wife? ;) No, but she's staying with a very nice single friend. You want my ever-lovin' to introduce you? Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 3 00:02:20 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 01:02:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone around tonight in VCF land? In-Reply-To: <454A6950.7616.52553376@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5002.66.124.82.241.1162516041.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net>, <454A607E.9838.5232BFAB@cclist.sydex.com>, <5081.66.124.82.241.1162532296.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <454A6950.7616.52553376@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5177.66.124.82.241.1162533740.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > On 3 Nov 2006 at 0:38, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> So... are you suggesting I call your wife? ;) > > No, but she's staying with a very nice single friend. You want my > ever-lovin' to introduce you? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Oy! This can't possibly be on-topic anymore... if it was ever! I'll reply off-list. :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 3 02:01:03 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 00:01:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone around tonight in VCF land? In-Reply-To: <5177.66.124.82.241.1162533740.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> from Evan Koblentz at "Nov 3, 6 01:02:20 am" Message-ID: <200611030801.kA38130B081336@floodgap.com> > > > So... are you suggesting I call your wife? ;) > > No, but she's staying with a very nice single friend. You want my > > ever-lovin' to introduce you? > Oy! This can't possibly be on-topic anymore... if it was ever! As long as she's at least ten years old. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 3 02:05:28 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 00:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: test In-Reply-To: <454ABA3F.6040009@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Nov 2, 6 10:40:47 pm" Message-ID: <200611030805.kA385TsQ081254@floodgap.com> > > > test, please ignore > > > Jay West > > A Jay West test is best. > Should there be a Jay West best test fest? That's lest there's a rest of the West tests to choose a best at the fest; what a pest to choose from that nest. (Be my guest to work 'zest' in there.) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The reader this message encounters not failing to understand is cursed. ---- From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 05:32:14 2006 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 03:32:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early Sun manuals Message-ID: <20061103113214.23434.qmail@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MessageHi, Looking for any of the early Sun manuals - eg the multibus Sun-1 era. In particular any manuals concerning the maintenance of early monitors (the monochrome monitor that was attached to the old Sun-1) and/or the early multibus Sun processor boards/FP board/CG1 board. Many thanks! Ian. --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Nov 3 07:47:48 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 08:47:48 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki Message-ID: A related and remarkable resource, which is less a Wiki and more of a blog, is Paul McJones' "Dusty Decks" page: http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/ He does a very excellent job of tying together multiple resources around the web, relating them to real computer history of wide general interest. Paul brings together several ingredients here: 1. A genuine interest in computer and especially software history in the context of the entire industry. 2. Knowledge of many others around the world who are doing solid work on the subject, including collecting/storing/making available hardcopy documents, reading old media, emulating old systems, etc. 3. Links to the others who are doing the work, often showing the output of the work. 4. A blog-type format that show shis personal interest but also shows that the work being done is relevant and important. 5. Incorporating comments/replies/etc. into his page. This is so monumentally great and exactly what should be done at this point in computer/software/emulation history, taking advantage of the web in exactly the right way. I should point out that there are some more scholarly and museum-like efforts going on at the same time, but none present the work and details and results nearly as openly and vividly as Paul does. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 3 07:59:01 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:59:01 -0600 Subject: test References: <200611030805.kA385TsQ081254@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <005c01c6ff50$39f40dc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> > That's lest there's a rest of the West tests to choose a best at the fest; > what a pest to choose from that nest. (Be my guest to work 'zest' in > there.) *sniff* what's that smell? ;) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 3 08:09:41 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:09:41 -0600 Subject: RA81 destruction Message-ID: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> I'm not one that ever advocates tearing apart classic gear. But in this case I think it's warranted and I'd like some advice. I have more than a few RA81's that are all clearly labled "BAD HDA", and the person I got them from confirmed "these are all dead". I grabbed them anyways as they had to be taken as part of "the deal". I am not familiar with these drives at all. From what I've heard over the years, they have a fairly high failure rate and thus people who use them are often looking for HDA assemblies. This makes me think that it's unlikely that I'll be able to just pull the bad HDA's out and obtain good ones to put in. Plus I don't need this many drives at all, so I think it's time to tear them apart and scrap them. Since I don't know anything about RA81's yet (have never used them or opened one up), and because I do intend to keep one or two of the drives running (a few don't say "bad hda" on them), can someone tell me what parts I should scavange off the dead ones that are worth keeping as spares? I know the obvious like the light bulbs and drive select plugs, but what about components on the inside that "those in the know" would advise I not just pitch with the drives? Lastly, are the casings for the RA81's mostly steel, or aluminum? I'm pondering putting them in the van and taking to a scrap metal dealer. I wouldn't do this, but they are clearly dead, HDA's not likely to appear, no one wants them, and I need the space. Jay West From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 08:30:02 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 09:30:02 -0500 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 11/3/06, Jay West wrote: > > Lastly, are the casings for the RA81's mostly steel, or aluminum? I'm > pondering putting them in the van and taking to a scrap metal dealer. I > wouldn't do this, but they are clearly dead, HDA's not likely to appear, > no > one wants them, and I need the space. I once saw some opened RAXX disks. I think the enclosure is made of aluminum. There might be some poeple who are both tube amp and vintage computer hobbists, that want to use the enclosure to make some cool looking tube amp. vax, 9000 Jay West > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Nov 3 10:16:19 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:16:19 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp wiki, et al, for dummies... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2006 19:37:21 EST." <5005.66.124.82.241.1162514241.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <200611031616.kA3GGJ3O021927@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Evan Koblentz" wrote: >All this fuss is idiotic. A knowledge base and a wiki are COMPLETELY >DIFFERENT THINGS. Please do explain. >There was already a recent discussion about whether >classiccmp should have a wiki, and the concensus was "not at this time" as >Jay already noted. In your opinion, was the discussion "should have" or "should become" a wiki? I'm not clear on that. >Those people should sign off from their email and go add >something constructive to the KB instead of critizing what Jay and others >have already done for it. I didn't hear anyone criticizing what has been done, sorry. >It's the fault of users, not the underlying >technology, if nobody adds to the database -- no amount of CMS or wiki or >anything else will help with that. I think we disagree on that point. I find when ever I am blaming "the users" it's really that I didn't understand the model the users were prone to be happy with. Just my limited experience with user interface, mind you, but people tend to use things that mesh with their desires and expectations. (and I find my kids don't suddenly become motivated when I yell at them) -brad From fryers at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 10:22:49 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:22:49 +0000 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Hey All, On 11/3/06, Jay West wrote: [RA81s with bad HDAs] > Since I don't know anything about RA81's yet (have never used them or opened > one up), and because I do intend to keep one or two of the drives running (a > few don't say "bad hda" on them), can someone tell me what parts I should > scavange off the dead ones that are worth keeping as spares? I know the > obvious like the light bulbs and drive select plugs, but what about > components on the inside that "those in the know" would advise I not just > pitch with the drives? I seem to remember, many moons ago, of a story where a couple of physisists used the servo assemblies from the head actuators to make a magnetically susported table. The table was automatically adjusted for any vibration and to keep it level. I don't remember if they used the head assembly servos from an RA81 or a different type of DEC drive. Has anyone else heard of this story and can remember if it was RA81 drives or not? Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Nov 3 10:29:33 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:29:33 -0500 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Nov 2006 08:09:41 CST." <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200611031629.kA3GTYTq022592@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: > >Since I don't know anything about RA81's yet (have never used them or opened >one up), and because I do intend to keep one or two of the drives running (a >few don't say "bad hda" on them), can someone tell me what parts I should >scavange off the dead ones that are worth keeping as spares? I'm sure other with more knowledge will have better suggestions, but I would grab (in order of priority) - all the belts which drive the HDA - one spare motor + clutch assembly - one set of the 3 logic boards - one "back power supply" box - a couple of sets of the plastic buttons (they break) and one of the pcb's behind it + the ribbon cable - the red SDI cables from the controller board to the back and the back plate if it's there the ra81's have internal diags and you could try and power them up and see if the power supply & boards are functioning. hard to say, but might be fun. you can test it with the led's and switches on the main board. Good, "in rev" HDA's are hard to come by. I have at least one RA81 with no HDA. I could use a good HDA. And if you do remove an HDA and want it keep it be sure and read about not putting weight on the bottom spindle - you want to flip the HDA over and set it on it's top. Apparently you can damage the HDA by setting it down on the spindle (please correct me if I've got that wrong). -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 3 09:49:05 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 08:49:05 -0700 Subject: Early Sun manuals Message-ID: > In particular any manuals concerning the maintenance of early monitors (the > monochrome monitor that was attached to the old Sun-1) Moniterm or Philips? Sun bought generic Multibus cases for the original desktop units. The most common monitors in them were made by either Moniterm or Philips. Moniterm monitors are notorious for flyback failures. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 3 05:47:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 05:47:11 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061103005139.76170.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061103005139.76170.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454B2C3F.9000502@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > >> I have a Nimbus somewhere, I think (well, it's a >> later RML machine with >> an Intel processor, is there anything else it could >> be?). > > They made loads of Intel based computers. Doesn't > necessarily positively have to be a Nimbus I don't > think... Hmm, I thought there were a handful of Intel-based RML machines, but they were all called 'Nimbus'. There was the laptop too, and I have a feeling that one perhaps didn't carry the Nimbus name (I've got one, but unfortunately on the other side of the pond and I've got no images of it here with me to check) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 3 09:51:53 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 08:51:53 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki Message-ID: A related and remarkable resource, which is less a Wiki and more of a blog, is Paul McJones' "Dusty Decks" page: http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/ This is so monumentally great and exactly what should be done at this point in computer/software/emulation history, taking advantage of the web in exactly the right way. ----- Abosolutely! He's one of the cornerstones of CHM's software preservation SIG I really wish there was more work of this quality going on. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 3 05:59:58 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 05:59:58 -0600 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454B2F3E.4040306@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Since I don't know anything about RA81's yet (have never used them or > opened one up), and because I do intend to keep one or two of the drives > running (a few don't say "bad hda" on them), can someone tell me what > parts I should scavange off the dead ones that are worth keeping as > spares? Hmm, I seem to remember list wisdom was that the spindle sensors on the underside of the drives go bad all the time - it's certainly worth rescuing those, but are you sure that the reason for the 'bad hda message' isn't something like this (rather than catastrophic mechanical failure or something which would require opening the drive case up?). I seem to recall that we replaced a spindle sensor on one of our drives with a more modern part (I seem to recall doing a bit of hacksawing and gluing to it so that it'd mount on the drive case properly) I certainly would have thought that it's worth your while to make up as many good units as possible out of the bits, unless you know that the failures aren't fixable already. As I recall the drive's on-board diags are pretty good (as are the manuals - I'm pretty sure there were comprehensive test procedures in there) > but they are clearly dead How do you know? cheers Jules From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 11:49:38 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 11:49:38 -0600 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <005c01c6ff50$39f40dc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000d01c6ff70$6f459910$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the zest of a Jay West test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a guest at the fest. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 7:59 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: test > > > That's lest there's a rest of the West tests to choose a > best at the > > fest; what a pest to choose from that nest. (Be my guest to work > > 'zest' in > > there.) > > *sniff* what's that smell? > > ;) > > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 3 11:51:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 10:51:40 -0700 Subject: Classiccmp wiki, et al, for dummies... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:16:19 -0500. <200611031616.kA3GGJ3O021927@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200611031616.kA3GGJ3O021927 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > >Those people should sign off from their email and go add > >something constructive to the KB instead of critizing what Jay and others > >have already done for it. > > I didn't hear anyone criticizing what has been done, sorry. He's bitching at me because I said I didn't like the KB. > >It's the fault of users, not the underlying > >technology, if nobody adds to the database -- no amount of CMS or wiki or > >anything else will help with that. > > I think we disagree on that point. I find when ever I am blaming "the > users" it's really that I didn't understand the model the users were > prone to be happy with. [...] Ditto. Which is exactly why I don't feel like contributing to the KB. The model of "everything must go through one person" is wrong IMO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 3 11:55:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 10:55:02 -0700 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Nov 2006 16:22:49 +0000. Message-ID: Pics of guts: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 3 12:28:31 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:28:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000d01c6ff70$6f459910$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from Julian Wolfe at "Nov 3, 6 11:49:38 am" Message-ID: <200611031828.kA3ISVBs016418@floodgap.com> > > > That's lest there's a rest of the West tests to choose a best at the > > > fest; what a pest to choose from that nest. (Be my guest to work 'zest' > > > in there.) > > *sniff* what's that smell? > Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the zest of a Jay West > test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a guest > at the fest. The smell is the smoking ashes of my dictionary looking for other non-infectional forms ending with -est. (as you ... guessed) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why did the chicken cross the Moebius strip? To get to the other ... uh ... From kth at srv.net Fri Nov 3 12:47:30 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:47:30 -0700 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454B8EC2.7000200@srv.net> Richard wrote: >Pics of guts: > > Frequent mentions of 240 volts in article: Either you have a much different drive than I ever used, or it should be running on 120 volts. I've run sytems with RA81's on 120v outlets. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 3 12:53:41 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:53:41 -0700 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <200611031828.kA3ISVBs016418@floodgap.com> References: <200611031828.kA3ISVBs016418@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <454B9035.7060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the zest of a Jay West >>test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a guest >>at the fest. > The smell is the smoking ashes of my dictionary looking for other > non-infectional forms ending with -est. (as you ... guessed) > Hmm time to put this to rest :"Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the zest of a Jay West test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a guest at the fest." :) From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 3 13:29:54 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:29:54 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611031800.kA3I0Qng000381@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005d01c6ff7e$70bfad90$6601a8c0@barry> Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD monitor would work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper voltage levels). The question gets back to the sync issue. But it would not surprise me if some of them might not actually have been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 3 13:28:58 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:28:58 -0500 Subject: test Message-ID: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> What say we give the Jay West test fest a rest... m From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 3 13:44:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:44:20 -0700 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:47:30 -0700. <454B8EC2.7000200@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <454B8EC2.7000200 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > Richard wrote: > > >Pics of guts: > > > > > Frequent mentions of 240 volts in article: > > Either you have a much different drive than I ever used, > [...] Not my drive, just the results of my google image search. I suspect its a Euro version. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From spc at conman.org Fri Nov 3 13:47:54 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:47:54 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Wiki In-Reply-To: <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> References: <01C6FE69.4924AF80@mse-d03> <454A19D2.2000305@topinform.de> Message-ID: <20061103194754.GB26328@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Andreas Holz once stated: > What about a classiccmp wiki? I know I'm coming to this a bit late (work and all) but I did set up such a beast back in November of 2003: http://www.flummux.org/cgi-bin/ccwiki.pl It's still there. -spc (And hasn't been updated since November of 2003 ... ) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 13:56:37 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:56:37 -0600 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <000001c6ff82$2c263290$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> That might be best. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 1:29 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: test > > What say we give the Jay West test fest a rest... > > m > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 3 14:04:04 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:04:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000001c6ff82$2c263290$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from Julian Wolfe at "Nov 3, 6 01:56:37 pm" Message-ID: <200611032004.kA3K44pc017302@floodgap.com> > > What say we give the Jay West test fest a rest... > That might be best. Yes ... t. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Surrender" from "Tomorrow Never Dies" ------------- From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 14:04:47 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:04:47 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <005d01c6ff7e$70bfad90$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <000101c6ff83$50442640$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> No really, just buy a $100 scanconverter. It's not worth the hassle. What's your time worth? Again, http://www.converters.tv has what you need. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 1:30 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: New monitors on old machines > > Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD monitor would > work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper voltage > levels). The question gets back to the sync issue. But it > would not surprise me if some of them might not actually have > been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. > > > > From wizard at voyager.net Fri Nov 3 14:41:22 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 15:41:22 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> References: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <1162586482.20129.0.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 14:28 -0500, M H Stein wrote: > What say we give the Jay West test fest a rest... I suggest that's best; it *IS* at West's behest. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Nov 3 14:50:59 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 15:50:59 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000101c6ff83$50442640$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <005d01c6ff7e$70bfad90$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061103154532.0502dde8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Julian Wolfe may have mentioned these words: >No really, just buy a $100 scanconverter. It's not worth the hassle. What's >your time worth? > >Again, http://www.converters.tv has what you need. Or, 2 other options: 1) add $50-100 bucks for an el-cheapo LCD-TV, which should accept NTSC rates, have an SVideo jack, and still support VGA. I paid $188 for my 15" on sale, and it has all three (Composite, NTSC and 1024x768 VGA), and works pretty decently. 2) See if a classic-based upconverter already exists for your computer. Roy Justus has a VGA upconverter for the Tandy CoCo3, and Chris Hawks has an SVideo upconverter for the same -- they're both looking at "expanding the field" to other classic computers so to speak. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman > > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 1:30 PM > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: New monitors on old machines > > > > Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD monitor would > > work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper voltage > > levels). The question gets back to the sync issue. But it > > would not surprise me if some of them might not actually have > > been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. > > > > > > > > -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 15:15:59 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000101c6ff83$50442640$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <20061103211559.98643.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > No really, just buy a $100 scanconverter. It's not > worth the hassle. What's > your time worth? There is the merit of learning how to do something. No, I for one can't blow a c-note everyday on whatever I feel like either. > > Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD > monitor would > > work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper > voltage > > levels). The question gets back to the sync > issue. But it > > would not surprise me if some of them might not > actually have > > been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. If some of these things had a seperate "video" input, I can see them accepting 15.75khz. But if we're talking about the 15 pin connection, what would be the reason for constructing the thing to take it there? And it occurred to me, some of these modern multisyncs, though probably a long shot, might wind up being able to accept 26.4khz. There's nothing saying they'd automatically crap the bed as soon as it sees 31.499999999khz. But like I said, if any did, they'd probably be few and far between. And we are talking about a single that isn't too far off. I'm not privy to the way a thing "decides" if a signal is kosher or not (and of course it's ability to work with certain frequencies has to do with the tolerance of the individual components), but perhaps they could be tweaked to accept something a tad lower, but keep in mind the previous parenthetical info. Push it too hard and you might see a few sparks. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 15:18:47 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:18:47 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <1162586482.20129.0.camel@linux.site> References: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> <1162586482.20129.0.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: I was just starting to enjoy this quest. Have you all lost interest? -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 3 15:29:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:29:26 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061103211559.98643.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000101c6ff83$50442640$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <20061103211559.98643.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454B4436.30062.55AC416F@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2006 at 13:15, Chris M wrote: > There is the merit of learning how to do something. > No, I for one can't blow a c-note everyday on whatever > I feel like either. I don't know what your Freecycle community is like, but around here, I typically see two working NTSC TV's per week. Last week had both 13" and 32" models offered up. Ya can't get much cheaper than that. It's also a convenient place to get rid of old (but not vintage) PeeCee gear and monitors. The stuff will get used. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 15:32:14 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:32:14 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061103211559.98643.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c6ff8f$876e0b20$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I see no merit in reinventing the wheel in this case. If you're really that cheap, find one on ebay for less. This whole debate is laughable. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: New monitors on old machines > > --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > > > No really, just buy a $100 scanconverter. It's not worth > the hassle. > > What's your time worth? > > There is the merit of learning how to do something. > No, I for one can't blow a c-note everyday on whatever I feel > like either. > > > > Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD > > monitor would > > > work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper > > voltage > > > levels). The question gets back to the sync > > issue. But it > > > would not surprise me if some of them might not > > actually have > > > been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. > > If some of these things had a seperate "video" input, > I can see them accepting 15.75khz. But if we're > talking about the 15 pin connection, what would be the > reason for constructing the thing to take it there? > And it occurred to me, some of these modern > multisyncs, though probably a long shot, might wind up > being able to accept 26.4khz. There's nothing saying > they'd automatically crap the bed as soon as it sees > 31.499999999khz. But like I said, if any did, they'd > probably be few and far between. And we are talking > about a single that isn't too far off. I'm not privy > to the way a thing "decides" if a signal is kosher or > not (and of course it's ability to work with certain > frequencies has to do with the tolerance of the > individual components), but perhaps they could be > tweaked to accept something a tad lower, but keep in > mind the previous parenthetical info. Push it too hard > and you might see a few sparks. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ______________________ > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates > (http://voice.yahoo.com) > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 15:38:03 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:38:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000801c6ff8f$876e0b20$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > I see no merit in reinventing the wheel in this > case. If you're really that > cheap, find one on ebay for less. This whole debate > is laughable. It's like keeping an old van around for hauling stuff when you need to. Doesn't mean you're going to blow thousands overhauling the thing. This is the type of hobby where the majority of us don't put a lot of money into, nor can justify it (though I've splurged on occasions). If you're too ignorant to engage or at least tolerate a technical discussion then you shouldn't be on the list. Frankly it's laughable to call it that. Shove off already. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 16:03:27 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:03:27 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c6ff93$e4127c90$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: New monitors on old machines > > --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > > > I see no merit in reinventing the wheel in this case. If you're > > really that cheap, find one on ebay for less. This whole debate is > > laughable. > > It's like keeping an old van around for hauling stuff when > you need to. Doesn't mean you're going to blow thousands > overhauling the thing. This is the type of hobby where the > majority of us don't put a lot of money into, nor can justify > it (though I've splurged on occasions). If you're too > ignorant to engage or at least tolerate a technical > discussion then you shouldn't be on the list. Frankly it's > laughable to call it that. Shove off already. > Again, I try to limit my input to discussions that may result in an answer not previously obtainable. In most cases, the technical discussions on this list are of this ilk. In this particular case, there is a simple, easy solution, and there's ample documentation on how it's done. It got entirely ignored until I pointed it out more bluntly. This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is as silly as shutting off a light switch so you can stumble around in the dark on purpose. > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ______________________ > We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy > changes to Yahoo! Groups > (http://groups.yahoo.com) > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 3 15:54:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 21:54:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Nov 3, 6 08:09:41 am Message-ID: > Since I don't know anything about RA81's yet (have never used them or opened > one up), and because I do intend to keep one or two of the drives running (a > few don't say "bad hda" on them), can someone tell me what parts I should > scavange off the dead ones that are worth keeping as spares? I know the I would keep all the PCBs. No I've not suddenly started approving of board-swapping, but it's the best way to keep any/all custom chips, ROMs, etc. I'd probably keep a few spindle motors and transformers. And any sensors on the outside of the HDA. Then I'd take an HDA apart as non-destructively as possible That is, undoing bolts, not cracking castings. And pbotograph it as I went. It would be an intenersing set of pictures for the wrb, I think [1]. [1] THere are too few web pages showing the internals of classic computers IMHO. I'd much rather see the PCBs and layout than the outer case. I'd probably keep that dismantled HDA (put back toghter, but obviosuly not useable) for interest, showing to fellow hackers, etc > Lastly, are the casings for the RA81's mostly steel, or aluminum? I'm At least for the Rx80, the main chassis is plated steel. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 3 16:07:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:07:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061103211559.98643.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 3, 6 01:15:59 pm Message-ID: > > --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > > > No really, just buy a $100 scanconverter. It's not > > worth the hassle. What's > > your time worth? > > There is the merit of learning how to do something. > No, I for one can't blow a c-note everyday on whatever > I feel like either. I will agree with both of those comments. > > > > Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD > > monitor would > > > work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper > > voltage > > > levels). The question gets back to the sync > > issue. But it > > > would not surprise me if some of them might not > > actually have > > > been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. The Maplin catalogue (Maplin is a high-street electronics shop in the UK) lists a PAL decoder that takes in UK TV PAL video (if you see what I mean) and outputs analogue RGB and sync on a DE15 connector. The catalogue description claims that most LCD panels and projectors will sync to that. Not having got such a display I can't comment further. > If some of these things had a seperate "video" input, > I can see them accepting 15.75khz. But if we're > talking about the 15 pin connection, what would be the > reason for constructing the thing to take it there? I recently used an video projector. It had a RCA video input (which could take PAL, NTSC, SECAM (I think), etc). A S-video socket. And a DE15. The last was both for VGA inputs _and_ for aanlogue RGB at TV (15.x kHxx horizontal) rates. It wouldn't suprise me if other devices were similar in this respect/ > And it occurred to me, some of these modern > multisyncs, though probably a long shot, might wind up > being able to accept 26.4khz. There's nothing saying > they'd automatically crap the bed as soon as it sees > 31.499999999khz. But like I said, if any did, they'd > probably be few and far between. And we are talking > about a single that isn't too far off. I'm not privy > to the way a thing "decides" if a signal is kosher or > not (and of course it's ability to work with certain > frequencies has to do with the tolerance of the > individual components), but perhaps they could be > tweaked to accept something a tad lower, but keep in > mind the previous parenthetical info. Push it too hard > and you might see a few sparks. With a CRT monitor, where the horizontal deflection system is resonated at some harmonic of the expected hroizotnal scan frequency, then driving it at the wrong rate will cause damage. But I don;t think that applies to an LCD or plasma panel. Most likely, if it can't make sense of what it's getting it'll display the 'no video' or 'sync lost' or ... message and that'll be all. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 3 16:12:23 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:12:23 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <01C6FF6B.3D643A00@MSE_D03> Speaking of unit record equipment, another candidate for the "first" programmed "computer"?: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/switch.html m From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 16:20:07 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:20:07 +0000 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <1162586482.20129.0.camel@linux.site> References: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> <1162586482.20129.0.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <26c11a640611031420j4e9d62b1v7b31dc77ceda4f70@mail.gmail.com> On 03/11/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 14:28 -0500, M H Stein wrote: > > > > What say we give the Jay West test fest a rest... > > > I suggest that's best; it *IS* at West's behest. > As we've got it of out chest, I feel I must attest It's time to stop this gest Dan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 16:34:03 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:34:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <01C6FF6B.3D643A00@MSE_D03> References: <01C6FF6B.3D643A00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20061103143309.O22324@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, M H Stein wrote: > Speaking of unit record equipment, another candidate for the > "first" programmed "computer"?: Stonehenge. But, it took a LOT of "programmers" to make even a simple change. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 3 16:47:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 15:47:29 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Nov 2006 14:34:03 -0800. <20061103143309.O22324@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061103143309.O22324 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, M H Stein wrote: > > Speaking of unit record equipment, another candidate for the > > "first" programmed "computer"?: > > Stonehenge. > But, it took a LOT of "programmers" to make even a simple change. I wonder if the Quipu was first? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 3 17:00:41 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:00:41 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000901c6ff93$e4127c90$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <047901c6ff9b$e31e5ef0$0501a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 2:03 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New monitors on old machines Again, I try to limit my input to discussions that may result in an answer not previously obtainable. In most cases, the technical discussions on this list are of this ilk. In this particular case, there is a simple, easy solution, and there's ample documentation on how it's done. It got entirely ignored until I pointed it out more bluntly. This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is as silly as shutting off a light switch so you can stumble around in the dark on purpose. ------ Actually, there is the point of doing something even if it has been done before because it is enjoyable, or is a challenge, or just for doing it your own way... If there is a commercial product available for $100 and youwant to buy it, then do so, you won't learn anything from it. From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Nov 3 17:00:24 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 17:00:24 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, quipus were to record information, not perform computations or logic. Also, they appeared a couple of thousand years after Stonehenge. Most quipus are Inka, which date them after ca. 1100 AD, although, IIRC, there are Wari quipus (ca 500AD). The Moche (200 BC-400AD) possibly used colored beans in a similar way (the first bean counters!). Bob >From: Richard >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Discussion of large systems Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 15:47:29 >-0700 > >In article <20061103143309.O22324 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, M H Stein wrote: > > > Speaking of unit record equipment, another candidate for the > > > "first" programmed "computer"?: > > > > Stonehenge. > > But, it took a LOT of "programmers" to make even a simple change. > >I wonder if the Quipu was first? > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 17:23:13 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:23:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quipo (was: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061103151454.C26922@shell.lmi.net> > > Stonehenge. > > But, it took a LOT of "programmers" to make even a simple change. On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > I wonder if the Quipu was first? > It's a file system, not necessarily a computer. Apparently the oldest ones that they've found are ONLY 5000 years old. But, . . . they might have been around earlier, and the Spanish were very thorough in their attempts to eliminate that culture, so many older data files were destroyed. So, they MIGHT be older. "Nowadays the word Kipu is also used in the Quechua translation of Windows XP. The word Kipu stands for 'File' within the Windows menu structure." OK, If you find drivers for XP for reading and writing Kipu, then I'll take back most of what I've ever said about MICROS~1. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 18:09:45 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061103160842.A26922@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Robert Feldman wrote: > No, quipus were to record information, not perform computations or logic. > Also, they appeared a couple of thousand years after Stonehenge. Most quipus > are Inka, which date them after ca. 1100 AD, although, IIRC, there are Wari > quipus (ca 500AD). The Moche (200 BC-400AD) possibly used colored beans in a > similar way (the first bean counters!). Oldest found so far is about 3000BC ! http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientwriting/a/caralquipu.htm From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 3 17:20:54 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:20:54 -0400 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <20061103143309.O22324@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200611040023.kA40N7NO073778@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:34:03 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, M H Stein wrote: >> Speaking of unit record equipment, another candidate for the >> "first" programmed "computer"?: >Stonehenge. >But, it took a LOT of "programmers" to make even a simple change. By simply moving 4 markers around the 56 aubery holes at stonehenge one can predict both solar and lunar eclipses. http://eclipse-chasers.com/henge1.html - covers the subject in far more detail than I can. till later Bob Bradlee From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 3 18:27:44 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 00:27:44 -0000 (GMT) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <454B2C3F.9000502@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061103005139.76170.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <454B2C3F.9000502@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1137.192.168.0.4.1162600064.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, November 3, 2006 11:47 am, Jules Richardson said: > Hmm, I thought there were a handful of Intel-based RML machines, but they > were > all called 'Nimbus'. There was the laptop too, and I have a feeling that > one > perhaps didn't carry the Nimbus name (I've got one, but unfortunately on > the > other side of the pond and I've got no images of it here with me to check) I've got half a dozen RM boxen from the period and only one is called 'nimbus' - the PC1, the others are labelled as AX and VX machines though that doesn't mean they weren't Nimbii internally :) (nimbuses?) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 3 18:33:18 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 18:33:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <200611040033.kA40XIxC074187@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Robert Feldman wrote: > > No, quipus were to record information, not perfo rm > computations or logic. > > Also, they appeared a couple of thousand years > after Stonehenge. Most quipus > > are Inka, which date them after ca. 1100 AD, > although, IIRC, there are Wari > > quipus (ca 500AD). The Moche (200 BC-400AD) > possibly used colored beans in a > > similar way (the first bean counters!). > > Oldest found so far is about 3000BC ! > > http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientwriting/a/c aralquipu.htm > Wow, that is old. All this talk of quipu's reminds me of one of my favourite cartoon shows from the early 80's - Mysterious Cities Of Gold. I don't suppose anyone knows of any games based on it? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 3 18:46:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 16:46:24 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? Message-ID: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> Awhile ago there was a thread on the decline of electronic hobby- related retailers in the US and UK. Well, I think I've figured out where they've gone--Thailand! Take a look at the catalog on this site (Warning--it's a 12MB PDF): http://www.etteam.com/ I wish I could read Thai... They have a English-language dealer site at http://www.futurlec.com but they don't carry half of the good stuff in the catalog. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 18:52:49 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 19:52:49 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The hobby store is at http://www.electronicsurplus.com/ Numerous parts that are not on-line yet. On 11/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Awhile ago there was a thread on the decline of electronic hobby- > related retailers in the US and UK. > > Well, I think I've figured out where they've gone--Thailand! > > Take a look at the catalog on this site (Warning--it's a 12MB PDF): > > http://www.etteam.com/ > > I wish I could read Thai... > > They have a English-language dealer site at http://www.futurlec.com > but they don't carry half of the good stuff in the catalog. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 19:03:12 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:03:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <1137.192.168.0.4.1162600064.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061104010312.91279.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Witchy wrote: > I've got half a dozen RM boxen from the period and > only one is called > 'nimbus' - the PC1, the others are labelled as AX > and VX machines though > that doesn't mean they weren't Nimbii internally :) > (nimbuses?) The first unit to be called a Nimbus had an 80186. It's been said recently that a 186 put to "full use" will have port assignments that differ from IBM's standard. I doubt that any later models were "Nimbus'", being that people generally learn from their mistakes (i.e wouldn't produce a second computer that had compatibility issues). A notable exception would be the Texas Instruments Professional, which apparently was "upgraded" with an 80286, and was available in both desktop and portable versions. I don't know if he enhancement simply an add-on card, for these were available from 3rd parties. I want one :( Of course a designer could ignore the on chip integrated peripheralsof the 186, which I believe was largely the case with the Tandy 2000 (from memory it has nearly every peripheral chip a 5150 had) - which would make you wonder why they used it to begin with. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 3 19:12:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 17:12:44 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <454B788C.13253.5678B006@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2006 at 19:52, 9000 VAX wrote: > The hobby store is at http://www.electronicsurplus.com/ > Numerous parts that are not on-line yet. I've purchased from them--does not appear to be in the same category at all--mostly discontinued and surplus stuff. How about a CPLD or FPGA development kit, or a dual CPU Z180-8051 development system? USB/ethernet interface modules? And those 4" 7-segment displays with built-in-controller. Not to mention the robotics kits. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Nov 3 19:13:10 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:13:10 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036563@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: Wow, that is old. All this talk of quipu's reminds me of one of my favourite cartoon shows from the early 80's - Mysterious Cities Of Gold. I don't suppose anyone knows of any games based on it? Regards, Andrew B ------------------------------------------------------------- I share your love of the series. It only showed up for one run in the US. Just didn't draw and audience. Apparently the DVD set is out in the original French. And there are a lot of DVDs in English that come up on eBay. But they are rips and of very poor quality. Plus none of the commentary. I've seen a game a couple of times on eBay. But it seemed to be a children's game and was in French. You might point your eBay preferences to include the French auctions. If they ever release it in an authorized DVD, I'll certainly buy it. Right now, I have some poor mpg2's that I found on a black IRC channel a few years ago. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 19:34:49 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:34:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000901c6ff93$e4127c90$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <20061104013449.49587.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > Again, I try to limit my input to discussions that > may result in an answer > not previously obtainable. In most cases, the > technical discussions on this > list are of this ilk. In this particular case, > there is a simple, easy > solution, and there's ample documentation on how > it's done. It got entirely > ignored until I pointed it out more bluntly. I'm not aware of any documentation you bluntly pointed out, and even looked throgh the archive. Like you said, it's a freakin' Tandy 2000. If someone's not inclined to spend $100, they'll ask for some info on how to do it more reasonably (read sensibly). Their time is to do with as they please. > This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is > as silly as shutting off > a light switch so you can stumble around in the dark > on purpose. Frankly that sounds like the mentality of someone who thinks that asking a question to which *someone* already knows the answer is a waste of *someone's* time. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 3 19:38:16 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 20:38:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <047901c6ff9b$e31e5ef0$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <20061104013816.E2EBC58712@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Geoff Reed > > Again, I try to limit my input to discussions that may result in an answer > not previously obtainable. In most cases, the technical discussions on this > list are of this ilk. In this particular case, there is a simple, easy > solution, and there's ample documentation on how it's done. It got entirely > ignored until I pointed it out more bluntly. > > This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is as silly as shutting off > a light switch so you can stumble around in the dark on purpose. > ------ > > Actually, there is the point of doing something even if it has been done > before because it is enjoyable, or is a challenge, or just for doing it your > own way... > > If there is a commercial product available for $100 and youwant to buy it, > then do so, you won't learn anything from it. > Lindsay's Technical Books comes to mind.. :) Cheers, Bryan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 19:52:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:52:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061104013816.E2EBC58712@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20061104015247.22065.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > Lindsay's Technical Books comes to mind.. :) > > Cheers, > > Bryan Bryan...you're advised not to bring up sources of such controversial information in the future, wherein one can find manuals on how to build a lathe from scratch, or pour their own babbitt bearings (of particular interest to me, being I have an old curmudgeon of a lathe that used them). Some might feel tempted to reinvent the wheel (or at least turn one out on the lathe they themselves built). I heard mention of someone who won a scholarship as a result of doing just that. So much for exercises in futility... ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 3 20:02:44 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 21:02:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061104015247.22065.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061104020244.016F758782@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M > > --- Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Lindsay's Technical Books comes to mind.. :) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > Bryan...you're advised not to bring up sources of > such controversial information in the future, wherein > one can find manuals on how to build a lathe from > scratch, or pour their own babbitt bearings (of > particular interest to me, being I have an old > curmudgeon of a lathe that used them). Some might feel > tempted to reinvent the wheel (or at least turn one > out on the lathe they themselves built). > I heard mention of someone who won a scholarship as a > result of doing just that. So much for exercises in futility... > O! I am sorry... To everyone... You didn't see anything.. (moving hands in circles) Cheers, !Bryan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 3 20:17:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:17:33 -0600 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Awhile ago there was a thread on the decline of electronic hobby- > related retailers in the US and UK. I was at Rat Shack this evening, and the manager had to go to the back room to get me some through-hole project board. When he brought it out he said "Well, it's a shame to see that go; we won't be getting any more." I asked if RS is getting out of the component business, and he told me they'll no longer be stocking them in-store. The online selection will stay the same. And then he charged me $0.99 for 2 0.25W 1kO ceramic caps.... Doc From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 21:43:35 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:43:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: He surely should charge you that much, because those components are extremely rare. I am surprised that you ever found two. On 11/3/06, Doc Shipley wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Awhile ago there was a thread on the decline of electronic hobby- > > related retailers in the US and UK. > > I was at Rat Shack this evening, and the manager had to go to the > back room to get me some through-hole project board. When he brought it > out he said "Well, it's a shame to see that go; we won't be getting any > more." > > I asked if RS is getting out of the component business, and he told > me they'll no longer be stocking them in-store. The online selection > will stay the same. > > And then he charged me $0.99 for 2 0.25W 1kO ceramic caps.... > > > Doc > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 22:36:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 23:36:34 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <26c11a640611031420j4e9d62b1v7b31dc77ceda4f70@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C6FF54.8EA8CA00@MSE_D03> <1162586482.20129.0.camel@linux.site> <26c11a640611031420j4e9d62b1v7b31dc77ceda4f70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <454C18D2.3090709@gmail.com> Dan Williams wrote: >> I suggest that's best; it *IS* at West's behest. >> > As we've got it of out chest, I feel I must attest > It's time to stop this gest Surely you jest! I'm not a pest! Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 3 23:42:50 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 23:42:50 -0600 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <454C285A.5050802@mdrconsult.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > He surely should charge you that much, because those components are > extremely rare. I am surprised that you ever found two. > > On 11/3/06, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > Awhile ago there was a thread on the decline of electronic hobby- >> > related retailers in the US and UK. >> >> I was at Rat Shack this evening, and the manager had to go to the >> back room to get me some through-hole project board. When he brought it >> out he said "Well, it's a shame to see that go; we won't be getting any >> more." >> >> I asked if RS is getting out of the component business, and he told >> me they'll no longer be stocking them in-store. The online selection >> will stay the same. >> >> And then he charged me $0.99 for 2 0.25W 1kO ceramic caps.... Duurrr. Looking at my parts list and typing at the same time may be a bad thing. Try this instead - 2 0.1uF ceramic caps Doc From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 4 06:13:21 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 07:13:21 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "9000 VAX" wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > > And then he charged me $0.99 for 2 0.25W 1k0 ceramic caps... > > He surely should charge you that much, because those components are > extremely rare. I am surprised that you ever found two. If they have a hard time finding them, remind them that they are kept right next to the krytrons that Los Alamos buys for making atomic bombs :-). More seriously, with lots of really good electronics, electromechanical, etc. distributors on the web, almost all of which are very happy to sell to hobbyists and tinkerers, there's not much need for Radio Shack anymore. Not that I never buy a fuse or something at Radio Shack on a Sunday afternoon, but the amount I buy at Radio Shack is a vanishingly small amount (like, 0.01% for maybe those two Sunday afternoons a year when I need a fuse) of my parts purchases. There's simply no way that Radio Shack can compete with Digikey, Mouser, McMaster-Carr, etc., which are all true distributors with extensive stocks and completely mind-blowing breadth. On the surplus side of the equation, are we going to sit around and lament that Poly-Paks isn't in business anymore or what???!!!! Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 4 10:18:20 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 08:18:20 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: At 7:13 AM -0500 11/4/06, Tim Shoppa wrote: >More seriously, with lots of really good electronics, >electromechanical, etc. distributors on the web, almost all of >which are very happy to sell to hobbyists and tinkerers, there's not >much need for Radio Shack anymore. Not that I never buy a fuse or something >at Radio Shack on a Sunday afternoon, but the amount I buy at Radio >Shack is a vanishingly small amount (like, 0.01% for maybe those >two Sunday afternoons a year when I need a fuse) of my parts purchases. I'm still shocked that Digi-Key sent me this huge catalog I have sitting here, after I purchased parts to build a Serial Interface for my C64. While I put in a good order of parts for the project, I also purchased quite a several of them from Radio Shack. Not being someone that builds a lot, it really helps to be able to see in person what I'm purchasing! There is a local electronic's store, plus Fry's that I can go to, but they're both out of the way, and I can only hit the electronic's store on the weekend due to when it closes. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 4 10:31:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 08:31:52 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <454C4FF8.30959.59C22D80@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2006 at 7:13, Tim Shoppa wrote: > On the surplus side of the equation, are we going to sit around > and lament that Poly-Paks isn't in business anymore or what???!!!! Has anyone really downloaded the ETT catalog and examined it? My point was that they offer a bewildering variety of educational and hobbyist kits--for Thai consumption. I could not care less about B&M store presence. While it's true we have our Jameco and JDR, their hobbyist and educational offerings are no match. While it's true that the business of hobbyist suppliers is a chicken- and-egg sort of situation, it's also the hobbyist market that keeps our professional ranks supplied. And the catalog should speak volumes as to where the West's supply of said professionals is headed. Just my 2 cents worth. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 4 12:04:08 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:04:08 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454C4FF8.30959.59C22D80@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454C4FF8.30959.59C22D80@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061104180408.808A1BA41A3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Has anyone really downloaded the ETT catalog and examined it? My > point was that they offer a bewildering variety of educational and > hobbyist kits--for Thai consumption. I could not care less about B&M > store presence. Their emphasis on PC boards and microcontrollers is certainly different than the classic "Heathkit" educational/hobbyist kit that used to work here. But obviously Heathkit, as such, is no more. (Didn't some of their microprocessor trainer boards live on past the rest of their stuff?) > While it's true we have our Jameco and JDR, their hobbyist and > educational offerings are no match. Jameco and JDR are pretty lame. Just my personal opinion. And Radio Shack, even if by some accident of time travel you found with all the parts that they sold in the 60's or 70's, was pretty lame too. Why spend so much money on lame no-name parts that they've had sitting on the shelves for 25 years? > While it's true that the business of hobbyist suppliers is a chicken- > and-egg sort of situation, it's also the hobbyist market that keeps > our professional ranks supplied. And the catalog should speak > volumes as to where the West's supply of said professionals is > headed. There are plenty of hobbyists buying and doing interesting stuff. And the big distributors who accomodate the small buyers (most do) are a far far better pipeline (cost, depth of stock, breadth of stock) especially when you pair them up with some of the more nimble specialty suppliers selling via web storefronts. Throw in the web-based PC board prototypers and front-panel-machining outfits and this is the most interesting time to be doing stuff for decades. Personally I find that my current hobby interests are almost completely orthogonal to the ETT stuff. Yes, microcontrollers etc. are interesting things, but after enough years in the industry I'm sick of them as things to do for fun. I generally choose to do things that have no educational value and are certain to lead nowhere technologically :-). Things like 6SN7's and 807's on shiny punched aluminum chassis with lots of chokes and transformers, that's where it is for me! Tim. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 4 12:19:57 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 11:19:57 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm still shocked that Digi-Key sent me this huge catalog I have sitting > here, after I purchased parts to build a Serial Interface for my C64. > While I put in a good order of parts for the project, I also purchased > quite a several of them from Radio Shack. Not being someone that builds > a lot, it really helps to be able to see in person what I'm purchasing! I just have a RAT-SHACK here. I don't know what you build with the parts since they seem to be randomly picked for what they stock. Other than a 2 knobs and 2 bridge rectifers and 4700 uf caps they have almost nothing here in Canada. I threw out my Digi-Key catalog but you still need parts from every where. > There is a local electronic's store, plus Fry's that I can go to, but > they're both out of the way, and I can only hit the electronic's store > on the weekend due to when it closes. We want poly-packs back ... how do I get my 2 cent 7400's with 3 working gates each for my next big project. :) > Zane > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 4 12:54:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 10:54:39 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2006 at 11:19, woodelf wrote: > We want poly-packs back ... how do I get my 2 cent 7400's with 3 working gates > each for my next big project. :) When ICs were very dear, PP wasn't such a bad deal, even if they offered mostly floor sweepings. I was surprised at how many ICs in one of their assortments didn't even have plating on the pins. But I last bought from PP when RTL and DTL were all the rage. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 4 14:50:21 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:50:21 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <20061104180408.808A1BA41A3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454C4FF8.30959.59C22D80@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104180408.808A1BA41A3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <454CFD0D.9010806@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Personally I find that my current hobby interests are almost completely > orthogonal to the ETT stuff. Yes, microcontrollers etc. are > interesting things, but after enough years in the industry I'm > sick of them as things to do for fun. I generally choose to > do things that have no educational value and are certain to lead > nowhere technologically :-). Things like 6SN7's and 807's on > shiny punched aluminum chassis with lots of chokes and transformers, > that's where it is for me! I tend to favor 12AY7's , 6B4G's and light blue. http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/myamp1.jpg My amp is finished till next years model. :) > Tim. > Now if I could figure out this *stupid* digital camera and $#@! software. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 4 14:59:21 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 14:59:21 -0600 Subject: Fw: Tandy PDD2 Portable Disk Drive 2 - Mint Cond Message-ID: <016701c70054$1b279420$02406b43@66067007> Check out this auction ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Morrison" To: "M100 List" Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: eBay: Tandy PDD2 Portable Disk Drive 2 - Mint Cond > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150051417513 > > Winning bid: US $306.00 > > Glad I got mine long ago!! > > Neil > > > From vrs at msn.com Sat Nov 4 15:01:39 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:01:39 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com><454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com><20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: From: "Zane H. Healy" > I'm still shocked that Digi-Key sent me this huge catalog I have > sitting here, after I purchased parts to build a Serial Interface for > my C64. While I put in a good order of parts for the project, I also > purchased quite a several of them from Radio Shack. Not being > someone that builds a lot, it really helps to be able to see in > person what I'm purchasing! > > There is a local electronic's store, plus Fry's that I can go to, but > they're both out of the way, and I can only hit the electronic's > store on the weekend due to when it closes. Is the local place Norvac? That's certainly what I'd recommend over RS or Fry's, locally. Not nearly the drive that Fry's is, either :-). Vince From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 4 15:07:53 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:07:53 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454CFD0D.9010806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454C4FF8.30959.59C22D80@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104180408.808A1BA41A3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454CFD0D.9010806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0700 11/4/06, woodelf wrote: >I tend to favor 12AY7's , 6B4G's and light blue. >http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/myamp1.jpg >My amp is finished till next years model. :) Now there is the kind of project *I* want to work on :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nerdware at ctgonline.org Sat Nov 4 15:10:46 2006 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 15:10:46 -0600 Subject: Time to purge - pickup only in the NW Indiana/Chicago area. Message-ID: <454D01D6.2070700@ctgonline.org> The time has come for me to let go of the collection - I want my basement and garage back, and I just lost interest and don't have the time any more. I have an assortment of stuff, inlcuding a complete PCJr, a Kaypro II with bunches of disks, some Tandy stuff, and a couple of older Macs, along with several boxes of old Byte magazines. I donated a big lot of it to another collector several years ago, and this is what I had kept. But now it's time for even that to go - I'm keeping my first VIC-20 and my Amigas, along with one Mac SE/30 just for fun. I started listing stuff on *bay, but I no longer have time or easy access to the place where I used to ship from, and I'm just too busy to do it now anyway. If this interests you, please email me offline and I can give you some more details. If I don't hear from anyone in a week, I'm afraid it's going to the recycler. -- Paul Braun Valparaiso, IN "There's a fine line between stupid, and clever." - David St. Hubbins "Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 4 15:15:19 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:15:19 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 11:19 AM -0700 11/4/06, woodelf wrote: >I just have a RAT-SHACK here. I don't know what you build with the parts >since they seem to be randomly picked for what they stock. Other than >a 2 knobs and 2 bridge rectifers and 4700 uf caps they have almost nothing >here in Canada. I was stunned, we still have several in the area, and the one that is on my way home actually has a semi-decent selection. More importantly they had enough of a selection that I was able to get the parts I needed. I'd ordered the wrong Cap's from Digi-key, forgotten DB25 sockets, decided I wanted to add a reset switch for the C64, and liked the project boards at Rat Shack better than what I'd ordered from Digi-key. Oh, and when I blew the fuse in my C64, I was also able to get a replacement there. I don't know, maybe here in the Silicon Forest they still try to stock some of this. At the same time, the bulk of the store was trash I wouldn't consider getting, and the only reason I bought the parts there was the convenience factor. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 15:35:06 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:35:06 +1300 Subject: PolyPaks (was Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone?) Message-ID: On 11/5/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Nov 2006 at 11:19, woodelf wrote: > > > We want poly-packs back ... how do I get my 2 cent 7400's with 3 working gates > > each for my next big project. :) > > When ICs were very dear, PP wasn't such a bad deal, even if they > offered mostly floor sweepings. I was surprised at how many ICs in > one of their assortments didn't even have plating on the pins. > > But I last bought from PP when RTL and DTL were all the rage. Back in that era, I wasn't buying too many parts, but I remember looking over all the stuff they would cram in their ads and wishing I had a few bucks to scrape together. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 4 15:40:29 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:40:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Nov 2006 at 11:19, woodelf wrote: > > > We want poly-packs back ... how do I get my 2 cent 7400's with 3 working gates > > each for my next big project. :) > > When ICs were very dear, PP wasn't such a bad deal, even if they > offered mostly floor sweepings. I was surprised at how many ICs in > one of their assortments didn't even have plating on the pins. > > But I last bought from PP when RTL and DTL were all the rage. Does anyone remember the Radio Shack Surprise Packages? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From james.rice at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 15:52:56 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 15:52:56 -0600 Subject: Fw: Tandy PDD2 Portable Disk Drive 2 - Mint Cond In-Reply-To: <016701c70054$1b279420$02406b43@66067007> References: <016701c70054$1b279420$02406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On 11/4/06, Keys wrote: > Subject: eBay: Tandy PDD2 Portable Disk Drive 2 - Mint Cond > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150051417513 > > > > Winning bid: US $306.00 > > > > Glad I got mine long ago!! > > > > Neil > > > > > > > I sold one in 2001 for $35. It was new, never removed from box. I wish I had held on to it a little longer. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 4 16:04:25 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:04:25 -0500 Subject: Disk image needed Message-ID: <007701c7005d$344e8c70$0b01a8c0@game> Looking for a disk image for a dead floppy. The disk is WATCOM VX-REXX Version 2.0, made in 1994 for OS/2. I just need an Image of disk 2/2. Can provide an image of my original disks and manuals if you like. Winimage format is fine, contact me offlist. Thanks, TZ From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Nov 4 16:04:01 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:04:01 -0500 Subject: TI 99/4a Manual Message-ID: <4F5E3037-D55D-4CED-A3B0-F62B793FCC67@colourfull.com> Hi, Anyone interested in a TI 99/4a Editor / Assembler manual and two floppies? (no cartridges) Figure $8 priority mail shipping. If no one claims it, it's going in the trash. Rob From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Nov 4 16:24:18 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 14:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: fyi: New Exidy Sorcerer docs Message-ID: <20061104222418.72125.qmail@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Added some new Exidy Sorcerer docs up today. The Sorcerer S-100 Expansion Unit Technical Manual and the Software Internals Manual for the Sorcerer. They're in my Exidy section on my site at http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 4 16:24:43 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 16:24:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: TI 99/4a Manual Message-ID: <200611042224.kA4MOhhS014514@keith.ezwind.net> --- Robert Borsuk wrote: > Hi, > Anyone interested in a TI 99/4a Editor / Assemble r > manual and two > floppies? (no cartridges) > Figure $8 priority mail shipping. > > If no one claims it, it's going in the trash. > > Rob > If no-one claims it by next Saturday the I'll take them. I don't have a TI 99/4a at present, but might end up with one in the future :) Even if I don't, the manual will be an interesting read ;) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 4 17:22:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 23:22:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061104013449.49587.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 3, 6 05:34:49 pm Message-ID: > > > Again, I try to limit my input to discussions that > > may result in an answer > > not previously obtainable. In most cases, the > > technical discussions on this > > list are of this ilk. In this particular case, > > there is a simple, easy > > solution, and there's ample documentation on how > > it's done. It got entirely > > ignored until I pointed it out more bluntly. > > I'm not aware of any documentation you bluntly > pointed out, and even looked throgh the archive. Like > you said, it's a freakin' Tandy 2000. If someone's not > inclined to spend $100, they'll ask for some info on > how to do it more reasonably (read sensibly). Their > time is to do with as they please. I've noticed a number of messages here recently where people are getting (IMHO) unfair criitism doing something in a particular way. For most (if not all) of us here, classic computers are a hobby. We work on them because we enjoy it. And nobody has the (moral) right to tell me what I should or should not enjoy. Period. All that's important in that respect is that my hobby does not adversely affect others. If somebody wants to spend many weeks designign and building something that thaey couuld buy ready-made for $100, that's their busienss. For some of us, $100 _is_ a considerable amount of money, not something we can spend without thinking about it. And yet we have plenty of time to tinker with such things. And of course the experience and education gained by designing and building something is often worth a lot. I can assure you that if I had a T2000 (I wish...) and didn't have the original monitor, I would not buy some undocuemtned [1] module to attempt to link up a more modern monitor. After all, that module was presumably not intneded to work at T2000 scan rates anyway, so it might not work correctly. No, I'd either design my oown scan converter, or modify a monitor to work at T2000 rates. [1] I have yet to see a 'scan doubler' that came with proper documentation. I'm not just moaning about a lack of schematics (as usual), but I've not even seen one that comes with proper specifications of the inputs and outputs. > > > This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is > > as silly as shutting off It's about as stupid as always having somebody else do the work and not learning anything about the problem or its solution. No thanks! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 4 17:29:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 23:29:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 4, 6 07:13:21 am Message-ID: > More seriously, with lots of really good electronics, > electromechanical, etc. distributors on the web, almost all of > which are very happy to sell to hobbyists and tinkerers, there's not > much need for Radio Shack anymore. Not that I never buy a fuse or something As I've said before, mail-order is fine for the main components for a project. It's when you run out of 1k resistors in the middle of an afternoon, or you need a couple more 2N3904 transistors to do a kludge-modification, or... that you appreiciate a local shop that sells such things... -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 4 18:09:55 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 19:09:55 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines References: Message-ID: <009f01c7006e$ba739cd0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 6:22 PM Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines > I've noticed a number of messages here recently where people are getting > (IMHO) unfair criitism doing something in a particular way. > > For most (if not all) of us here, classic computers are a hobby. We work > on them because we enjoy it. And nobody has the (moral) right to tell me > what I should or should not enjoy. Period. All that's important in that > respect is that my hobby does not adversely affect others. > > If somebody wants to spend many weeks designign and building something > that thaey couuld buy ready-made for $100, that's their busienss. For > some of us, $100 _is_ a considerable amount of money, not something we > can spend without thinking about it. And yet we have plenty of time to > tinker with such things. > > And of course the experience and education gained by designing and > building something is often worth a lot. > > I can assure you that if I had a T2000 (I wish...) and didn't have the > original monitor, I would not buy some undocuemtned [1] module to attempt > to link up a more modern monitor. After all, that module was presumably > not intneded to work at T2000 scan rates anyway, so it might not work > correctly. No, I'd either design my oown scan converter, or modify a > monitor to work at T2000 rates. > > [1] I have yet to see a 'scan doubler' that came with proper > documentation. I'm not just moaning about a lack of schematics (as > usual), but I've not even seen one that comes with proper specifications > of the inputs and outputs. > > > > > > This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is > > > as silly as shutting off > > It's about as stupid as always having somebody else do the work and not > learning anything about the problem or its solution. No thanks! > > -tony Some people are into the hardware aspect of their collection so spending the time and money to make a part is fun for them, others get into the software aspect and might not have the time, skills, or desire to hack something together since its not fun. While it seems quite a few people like both hardware and software most have a slant one way or the other. Personally I will fix something that is too hard, too time consuming, or too expensive to replace and prefer the original devices instead of newer hacks for some things. Some newer hardware just looks funny on older machines to me. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Nov 4 18:19:16 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 19:19:16 -0500 Subject: TI 99/4a Manual In-Reply-To: <200611042224.kA4MOhhS014514@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611042224.kA4MOhhS014514@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <454D2E04.4070704@dragonsweb.org> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Robert Borsuk wrote: > >>Hi, >> Anyone interested in a TI 99/4a Editor / Assemble > > r > >>manual and two >>floppies? (no cartridges) >>Figure $8 priority mail shipping. >> >>If no one claims it, it's going in the trash. >> >>Rob >> > > > > If no-one claims it by next Saturday the I'll > take them. I don't have a TI 99/4a at present, > but might end up with one in the future :) Even > if I don't, the manual will be an interesting > read ;) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > I'm pretty sure I still have an extra EA cart to go with the manual and disk, for postage, if you or whoever takes them needs one. Contact me off-list if interested. jbdigriz From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 18:21:01 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 13:21:01 +1300 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/06, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone remember the Radio Shack Surprise Packages? I bought a few when I was a kid playing with 50-in-one kits and such. I still have a few components in my drawer from that era (LEDs and caps and 2n222s, mostly) -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 4 18:37:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:37:50 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <454CC1DE.22975.5B7F160C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2006 at 13:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/5/06, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone remember the Radio Shack Surprise Packages? Assortment packages, I remember. I still have some very odd rating 78xx and 79xx voltage regulators as well as lots of oddball zeners. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 4 21:51:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 03:51:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <009f01c7006e$ba739cd0$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Nov 4, 6 07:09:55 pm Message-ID: > Some people are into the hardware aspect of their collection so spending the > time and money to make a part is fun for them, others get into the software > aspect and might not have the time, skills, or desire to hack something > together since its not fun. While it seems quite a few people like both Sure, My point is not that you _must_ make your own scan converter (or modify a monitor, or...), rather that there's nothing wrong with so doing if you want to. It's not stupid to want to do it yourself, nor is it stupid to buy the unit if you don't like hardware hacking. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 4 22:04:30 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 23:04:30 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines References: Message-ID: <00c001c7008f$8006a170$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 10:51 PM Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines > > Some people are into the hardware aspect of their collection so spending the > > time and money to make a part is fun for them, others get into the software > > aspect and might not have the time, skills, or desire to hack something > > together since its not fun. While it seems quite a few people like both > > Sure, > > My point is not that you _must_ make your own scan converter (or modify > a monitor, or...), rather that there's nothing wrong with so doing if you > want to. It's not stupid to want to do it yourself, nor is it stupid to > buy the unit if you don't like hardware hacking. > > -tony The problem is some people cannot see another person perspective nor take into account their finances when they post a question here (or anywhere else). If I respond to somebody I try to answer their question and maybe expand on it a little to see where they are coming from and want to go (if its not a yes or no answer). Some people overlook simpler fixes while others want to reinvent the wheel (and know there are easier or cheaper ways but don't care). Lets face it many people look at some of the things I collect (vintage video capture gear) and tell me I can get a USB dongle to capture from my VCR for $50 with software included. I know I can do that, but the older, bulkier, and finicky hardware and software is more fun to play with (and some of it is better quality too). For a hobby I don't see what the problem is with using older equipment, but I would expect somebody to point me to an easier method if I was doing this for a living. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 4 22:04:27 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 22:04:27 -0600 Subject: 11/44 memory question Message-ID: <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It would appear that the slots designated "MEMORY" in the 11/44 (slots 9-12 in the *system* backplane) are actually "Extended Unibus" slots. My reading is that these slots allow 22 bits of memory addressing instead of 18. So, of they are still "unibus" slots, does that mean that if there is one board in slot 9, that slots 10-12 should have grant continuity cards (G727)? If they are unibus slots I would certainly think so, but they are designated for memory only... and I can't find any reference to using grant cards there for non-populated memory slots. Anyone know off the top of their head? Jay From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Nov 4 22:47:01 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 23:47:01 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454B788C.13253.5678B006@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061104233951.05023070@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 3 Nov 2006 at 19:52, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > The hobby store is at http://www.electronicsurplus.com/ > > Numerous parts that are not on-line yet. > >I've purchased from them--does not appear to be in the same category >at all--mostly discontinued and surplus stuff. And a wildly freaky pricing structure... also, thewebsite isn't exactly "helpful" ... I clicked on "ICs," and I found 1U ATX power supplies for a pretty good price. Other than 1, maybe 2 ICs *in* the power supply, what's it got to do with it, tho??? Under the IC listing, I found an $80 8Mhz Moto 68000!?!?!?! Ye gods!!! If you wanna go faster cheaper, you can get the 100 Mhz '486 for only $59.00, tho... :-/ Weird... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 4 23:00:06 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 21:00:06 -0800 Subject: 11/44 memory question In-Reply-To: <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 10:04 PM -0600 11/4/06, Jay West wrote: >It would appear that the slots designated "MEMORY" in the 11/44 >(slots 9-12 in the *system* backplane) are actually "Extended >Unibus" slots. My reading is that these slots allow 22 bits of >memory addressing instead of 18. > >So, of they are still "unibus" slots, does that mean that if there >is one board in slot 9, that slots 10-12 should have grant >continuity cards (G727)? > >If they are unibus slots I would certainly think so, but they are >designated for memory only... and I can't find any reference to >using grant cards there for non-populated memory slots. > >Anyone know off the top of their head? > >Jay I'm pretty sure you don't need grant cards, but my /44 is buried. The /44 can use up to 4MB, and IIRC, I only have 1MB. I needed the grant cards, but in slots where options had been removed. It's just like you don't need any kind of grant card in the CPU slots if you don't have the extended CPU options installed. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 4 23:05:19 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 23:05:19 -0600 Subject: 11/44 memory question References: <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <004801c70097$ffb6f2f0$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote.... > It's just like you don't need any kind of grant card in the CPU slots if > you don't have the extended CPU options installed. I don't think it is necessarily the same, because cpu slots aren't unibus slots. The extended unibus slots that are for memory in the 11/44 ARE unibus slots. But more to the point, the manual for the MS11-P shows that the M8743 cards tie together BG4-7 and NPG ON THE CARD. If they do that, then why wouldn't one need a grant card if no module is present? Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 5 00:01:39 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 23:01:39 -0700 Subject: PolyPaks (was Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454D7E43.5060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Back in that era, I wasn't buying too many parts, but I remember > looking over all the stuff they would cram in their ads and wishing I > had a few bucks to scrape together. I'd like to see the ads again. The adverisments really defined just how people saw the techology. > -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 5 00:02:09 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 23:02:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <454D7E61.8030109@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone remember the Radio Shack Surprise Packages? > I am still trying to forget! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 5 00:01:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 22:01:29 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061104233951.05023070@mail.30below.com> References: , <454B788C.13253.5678B006@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061104233951.05023070@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <454D0DB9.9264.5CA76234@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2006 at 23:47, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Under the IC listing, I found an $80 8Mhz Moto 68000!?!?!?! > Ye gods!!! Speaking of 68K, have you seen the Innovasic Fido 1100 MPU? Innovasic also offers a direct replacement for the AMD 2901A--in PDIP yet! http://www.innovasic.com/ Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 5 00:24:34 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 22:24:34 -0800 Subject: 11/44 memory question In-Reply-To: References: <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:04 PM -0600 11/4/06, Jay West wrote: >> It would appear that the slots designated "MEMORY" in the 11/44 >> (slots 9-12 in the *system* backplane) are actually "Extended Unibus" >> slots. My reading is that these slots allow 22 bits of memory >> addressing instead of 18. >> >> So, of they are still "unibus" slots, does that mean that if there is >> one board in slot 9, that slots 10-12 should have grant continuity >> cards (G727)? >> >> If they are unibus slots I would certainly think so, but they are >> designated for memory only... and I can't find any reference to using >> grant cards there for non-populated memory slots. > > I'm pretty sure you don't need grant cards, but my /44 is buried. The > /44 can use up to 4MB, and IIRC, I only have 1MB. I needed the grant > cards, but in slots where options had been removed. > > It's just like you don't need any kind of grant card in the CPU slots > if you don't have the extended CPU options installed. You don't need grant cards in the 11/44 backplane slots 9-12 since they are not SPC slots. The AB portion of the slot is 'extended unibus' EUB (adds address lines 18-21 for 22b addressing) but the CDEF sections are not SPC slots. If they are not used for memory they should be left empty; you can put a grant card (either type) in these unused slots -- it won't hurt anything, but it is not necessary. Empty memory slots cannot be used for UNIBUS SPC modules either. Only the last two quad slots 13,14 CDEF in the 11/44 backplane are SPC and these require G727A/G7273 grant cards depending on whether the NPG wire has been removed. The modules have the grant propagation lines intact because they could *theoretically* go in a MUD (modified unibus, 18b, with associated SPC section) or an EUB (22b) slot. These modules work in the 11/44 (dedicated EUB memory) slots or the 11/24 (MUD/EUB/SPC slots) which need grant propagation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 5 00:36:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 22:36:46 -0800 Subject: PolyPaks (was Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone?) In-Reply-To: <454D7E43.5060905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <454D7E43.5060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <454D15FE.30254.5CC7B0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2006 at 23:01, woodelf wrote: > I'd like to see the ads again. > The adverisments really defined just how people saw the techology. I think I still have a Poly Paks data sheet for a uA709 op-amp (TO- 99). Was pretty amazing stuff back then. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Nov 5 01:22:17 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 02:22:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <00c001c7008f$8006a170$0b01a8c0@game> References: <00c001c7008f$8006a170$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200611050726.CAA28132@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Let's] face it many people look at some of the things I collect > (vintage video capture gear) and tell me I can get a USB dongle to > capture from my VCR for $50 with software included. Heh. Someone tried to tell me that, I'd ask them where I could get a USB-capable machine with a Windows - or whatever OS the software they're talking about demands - license for under $50. (I've got exactly one machine with USB hardware, and there ain't no way any closed-source software - OS or USB dongle interface - is going anywhere near it.) Well, except I don't do video capture, but, mutatis mutandis.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Nov 5 01:51:06 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 02:51:06 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000901c6ff93$e4127c90$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Julian Wolfe may have mentioned these words: >This start-all-over-and-hack-something mentality is as silly as shutting off >a light switch so you can stumble around in the dark on purpose. I do that every night. I'm the "night owl" of the family, and the light switch is on one end of the hallway (top of stairs; other switch is at bottom of stairs), my bedroom on the other. The hallway itself is unlit. Now, I *could* walk down to the bedroom, turn on a light, walk back, turn off the hallway light, then walk back to the bedroom again, but a) that takes a lot of time, and b) that would wake my wife, which has dire consequences for her sleep. If I don't want to get woken up at 6:00 am (not to mention - ahem - other benefits :-O ), I tend not to wake her up at 2:00 am... So I stumble around in the dark on purpose. I guess I'm just silly. If everyone took your point of view, I wouldn't have either of the recently made direct-connect VGA *or* SVideo adapters for my Tandy CoCo 3 -- which cost me $50 each. Why spend $100 for one, when I spent $100 for two, didn't have to hack a special cable, and supported those who are keeping the hobby alive in the process???? But again, I guess I'm just silly. Ungh. Plonk. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Nov 5 04:27:52 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:27:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <454CC1DE.22975.5B7F160C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <454CC1DE.22975.5B7F160C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2006 at 13:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 11/5/06, David Griffith wrote: >>> Does anyone remember the Radio Shack Surprise Packages? > > Assortment packages, I remember. I still have some very odd rating 78xx > and 79xx voltage regulators as well as lots of oddball zeners. The 1/4W resistor packs weren't that bad. I still have some of the more uncommon values from those in my cabinets. The electrolytic capacitor packs were also pretty good for bread boarding / general experimentation. I never was too crazy about the ceramic capacitor assortment packs though. They never seemed to contain much in the way of useful values. The LED packs were also a lot of fun. Where else could you pay $1.50-$2.00 for a pile of weird looking and one of a kind leds? :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Nov 5 04:30:49 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:30:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2006, David Griffith wrote: > On Sat, 4 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> When ICs were very dear, PP wasn't such a bad deal, even if they >> offered mostly floor sweepings. I was surprised at how many ICs in >> one of their assortments didn't even have plating on the pins. >> >> But I last bought from PP when RTL and DTL were all the rage. > > Does anyone remember the Radio Shack Surprise Packages? My favorite were the 18"x18"x12" brown boxes several of the store managers would fill up with discontinued/overstock/open packages of components that they would save for me and sell to me for $5-$10 :) -Toth From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Nov 5 07:32:17 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 05:32:17 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? Component lists In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <454C716F.12184.5A44E838@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <454DE7E1.8000307@msm.umr.edu> I went looking for a friend's site, who had a business similar to Poly Paks, ACP Computers in Santa ana. I found a list referencing the Teknopak site, which may be of interest to those who buy things from Digikey that someone has compiled. http://www.edtmag.com/dista.htm contains a pretty large list of links to sites (which I did not vet) that may be others who sell small volumes of parts. ACP Components is similar to Teknopak, and if you need small volumes, I think they'd be friendly to such an order. If this is to much -Off Off topic, then I apologize, but I had not checked on what they had and this seemed useful. I know I promised to take Billy up for a visit to their warehouse to nose into dark corners for his projects, and still need to when he is feeling more like driving and probably taking a day off. such operations as ACP have huge stashes of "junk" parts they get in with good shipments of parts, and there is no way to list all the crap they have stashed which was custom, or modified, or house part numbers, but might be useful to hobbiests. Most get culled eventually and trashed (recycled) sad to say. http://www.acpcomponents.com/ Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 5 08:57:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 08:57:31 -0600 Subject: 11/44 memory question References: <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <004501c700ea$c71cd010$6700a8c0@BILLING> Don wrote.... > The modules have the grant propagation lines intact because they could > *theoretically* go in a MUD (modified unibus, 18b, with associated SPC > section) or an EUB (22b) slot. These modules work in the 11/44 > (dedicated EUB memory) slots or the 11/24 (MUD/EUB/SPC slots) which need > grant propagation. Ok, gotcha. That makes sense. Thanks! Jay From drb at msu.edu Sun Nov 5 09:55:10 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 10:55:10 -0500 Subject: 11/44 memory question In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 04 Nov 2006 22:24:34 PST.) <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com> References: <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com> <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200611051555.kA5FtAxH004917@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > You don't need grant cards in the 11/44 backplane slots 9-12 since they > are not SPC slots. The AB portion of the slot is 'extended unibus' EUB > (adds address lines 18-21 for 22b addressing) but the CDEF sections are > not SPC slots. If they are not used for memory they should be left > empty; you can put a grant card (either type) in these unused slots -- > it won't hurt anything, but it is not necessary. Empty memory slots > cannot be used for UNIBUS SPC modules either. > > Only the last two quad slots 13,14 CDEF in the 11/44 backplane are SPC > and these require G727A/G7273 grant cards depending on whether the NPG > wire has been removed. > > The modules have the grant propagation lines intact because they could > *theoretically* go in a MUD (modified unibus, 18b, with associated SPC > section) or an EUB (22b) slot. These modules work in the 11/44 > (dedicated EUB memory) slots or the 11/24 (MUD/EUB/SPC slots) which need > grant propagation. FWIW, my "PDP-11/44 System Technical Manual" (EK-KD11Z-TM-001, 1980) provides this information on pages 3-1 and 3-6. De From Steve at oceanrobots.net Sun Nov 5 10:14:44 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 11:14:44 -0500 Subject: PolyPaks (was Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone?) In-Reply-To: <454D15FE.30254.5CC7B0A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <454D7E43.5060905@jetnet.ab.ca> <454D15FE.30254.5CC7B0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <454E0DF4.40908@oceanrobots.net> "No chance to test 'em" Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 4 Nov 2006 at 23:01, woodelf wrote: > > > >>I'd like to see the ads again. >>The adverisments really defined just how people saw the techology. >> >> > >I think I still have a Poly Paks data sheet for a uA709 op-amp (TO- >99). Was pretty amazing stuff back then. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 5 11:34:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 09:34:00 -0800 Subject: 11/44 memory question In-Reply-To: <200611051555.kA5FtAxH004917@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com> <000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200611051555.kA5FtAxH004917@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 10:55 AM -0500 11/5/06, Dennis Boone wrote: >FWIW, my "PDP-11/44 System Technical Manual" (EK-KD11Z-TM-001, >1980) provides this information on pages 3-1 and 3-6. > >De Jay, If you don't have a copy, I believe Al has a copy of this up on bitsavers. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/ Personally I wouldn't want to try to run a /44 without a copy of the Tech Manual, it was invaluable in getting my system up and running. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 5 11:58:37 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 11:58:37 -0600 Subject: 11/44 memory question References: <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com><000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200611051555.kA5FtAxH004917@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <001701c70104$064942f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Dennis wrote.... > FWIW, my "PDP-11/44 System Technical Manual" (EK-KD11Z-TM-001, > 1980) provides this information on pages 3-1 and 3-6. Acutally, I read that manual, and was looking at exactly pages 3-1 and 3-6. Neither one of those pages elucidates the reason that Don explained and the crux of my question. In addition, the manual for the memory boards raised the issue in my mind because they were documented to tie the bus grant signals together. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 5 12:01:24 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:01:24 -0600 Subject: 11/44 memory question References: <454D83A2.8000100@mindspring.com><000901c7008f$812dbc50$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP><200611051555.kA5FtAxH004917@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <001a01c70104$68e762c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Zane wrote.... > If you don't have a copy, I believe Al has a copy of this up on bitsavers. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/ > > Personally I wouldn't want to try to run a /44 without a copy of the Tech > Manual, it was invaluable in getting my system up and running. Thanks for the pointer Zane, but I did(do) have the manual - read it before asking my question too. What I saw in that manual AND in concert with the M8743 documentation was unclear to me. It's not that I don't read the manuals folks, it's that what I saw didn't make sense to me. HENCE my question. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 5 12:19:08 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:19:08 -0600 Subject: RA81 destruction References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454B2F3E.4040306@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001001c70106$e9c8c8f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote.... > I certainly would have thought that it's worth your while to make up as > many good units as possible out of the bits, unless you know that the > failures aren't fixable already. As I recall the drive's on-board diags > are pretty good (as are the manuals - I'm pretty sure there were > comprehensive test procedures in there) Yes, I'm aware of the diags. I have read the manuals quite some time ago and saw the cute built-in "console port" and such. I had written... > > but they are clearly dead To which Jules responded. > How do you know? Because the collector on this list who gave me all the RA81's said they were tested and dead, and he put the "Bad HDA" tags on the front. But you're right I shouldn't take his word for it. I should retest them all. Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 5 14:04:05 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:04:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I do that every night. I'm the "night owl" of the family, and the light > switch is on one end of the hallway (top of stairs; other switch is at > bottom of stairs), my bedroom on the other. The hallway itself is unlit. > Now, I *could* walk down to the bedroom, turn on a light, walk back, turn > off the hallway light, then walk back to the bedroom again, but a) that > takes a lot of time, and b) that would wake my wife, which has dire > consequences for her sleep. If I don't want to get woken up at 6:00 am (not > to mention - ahem - other benefits :-O ), I tend not to wake her up at 2:00 > am... 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) 2) train your dog how to work a light switch 3) switch with delay 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 5 14:27:53 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:27:53 -0700 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com> <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <454E4949.9060703@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) > 2) train your dog how to work a light switch > 3) switch with delay > 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway > 5) Sleep on the sofa :) 6) Night light From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 5 14:30:42 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:30:42 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454C4FF8.30959.59C22D80@cclist.sydex.com> <20061104180408.808A1BA41A3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454CFD0D.9010806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <454E49F2.4020807@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now there is the kind of project *I* want to work on :^) Now if I can get it off the bench and listen to *music*. > Zane From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sun Nov 5 14:36:42 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: fyi: new superPET doc Message-ID: <20061105203642.40394.qmail@web81015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've added the SuperPET Waterloo APL manual on my site. http://www.trailingedge.com/cbm8/ (Warning it is 38 meg) ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 5 14:50:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 12:50:42 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com>, <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <454DDE22.32323.F56EB2@cclist.sydex.com> n 5 Nov 2006 at 12:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) > 2) train your dog how to work a light switch > 3) switch with delay > 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway Do what I do in my garage--use a motion sensor instead of a switch. Unless you've got a dog or cat wandering around, it works great. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 15:38:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 10:38:44 +1300 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061104233951.05023070@mail.30below.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454B788C.13253.5678B006@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061104233951.05023070@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Under the IC listing, I found an $80 8Mhz Moto 68000!?!?!?! > Ye gods!!! Wow! I'm Rich! Personally, I'd queal if I had to pay more than $5-$10 for a 68000-8. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 5 15:47:04 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 15:47:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? Message-ID: <200611052147.kA5Ll4N6056457@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/5/06, Roger Merchberger > wrote: > > Under the IC listing, I found an $80 8Mhz Moto > 68000!?!?!?! > > Ye gods!!! > > Wow! I'm Rich! > > Personally, I'd queal if I had to pay more than > $5-$10 for a 68000-8. > > -ethan > Well, I paid about $10 USD (?5 GBP) for 3 68000 processors and that included P&P to the UK. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 16:03:02 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:03:02 +1300 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <200611052147.kA5Ll4N6056457@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611052147.kA5Ll4N6056457@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11/6/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 11/5/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Under the IC listing, I found an $80 8Mhz Moto 68000!?!?!?! > > > Ye gods!!! > > > > Wow! I'm Rich! > > > > Personally, I'd queal if I had to pay more than > > $5-$10 for a 68000-8. That should be *s*queal. > Well, I paid about $10 USD (?5 GBP) for 3 68000 > processors and that included P&P to the UK. And I think _that_ is a fair price (~$3 USD each) -ethan From jwest at ezwind.net Sun Nov 5 16:06:38 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 16:06:38 -0600 Subject: 11/44 is alive, as is the 11/34! Message-ID: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> The 11/44 has come to life. It passed all the diags I threw at it, plus booted RT11. I did that on an RL02 and would like to switch that system to an RA81. Once the RA81 is in place, that system is done. But at least the cpu is known working. In case I didn't mention it here, the 11/34 is also alive. Turns out the "odd" diagnostic results I was seeing are actually what a working system prints. The /34 booted RT11 as well and ran a few small compiles. All I have to do now is move the cpu from the table on the side of the rack and mount it inside the rack. Then that box is done as well. Once those above cosmetic issues are done, I'll take a short break and then revisit the 11/45 project which was temporarily shelved :D I'd love to spend more time now with the /44 and /34 to get TSX up and running, play with sysgening a new system, etc. But no time to play yet, I'm under orders to consolidate and get rid of stuff. Thanks to all who gave input, advice, and knowledge! Jay West From pechter at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 16:54:50 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:54:50 -0500 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: <001001c70106$e9c8c8f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454B2F3E.4040306@yahoo.co.uk> <001001c70106$e9c8c8f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Among the problems back around 85-86 was a problem with breather filter glue creep causing head contamination and crashing starting with head 13... the bottom physical head. I replaced a bunch when I was in Field Service. They also had some ECO/FCO's to the read/write module for preamp current IIRC. Been a long time since I worked on them. The ones without the glue problem worked pretty well... They really got screwed by the glue being swapped by the vendor. The new glue was close in properties -- but reliquified at a lower temperature causing major problems when the original glue was discontinued and became unavailable. Bill On 11/5/06, Jay West wrote: > > Jules wrote.... > > I certainly would have thought that it's worth your while to make up as > > many good units as possible out of the bits, unless you know that the > > failures aren't fixable already. As I recall the drive's on-board diags > > are pretty good (as are the manuals - I'm pretty sure there were > > comprehensive test procedures in there) > Yes, I'm aware of the diags. I have read the manuals quite some time ago > and > saw the cute built-in "console port" and such. > > I had written... > > > but they are clearly dead > > To which Jules responded. > > How do you know? > > Because the collector on this list who gave me all the RA81's said they > were > tested and dead, and he put the "Bad HDA" tags on the front. But you're > right I shouldn't take his word for it. I should retest them all. > > Jay > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Nov 5 17:20:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 23:20:31 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <454AB325.3010306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/06 03:10, "Ray Arachelian" wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> Correct, another example is the electrostatic Sinclair ZX Printer or the dot >> matrix that matched the Apple Lisa > The ADMP? That later became the ImageWriter. It was the same C. Itoh > printer as the ImageWriter, just with a parallel interface. The Lisa I mean this one: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=lisa/apple-lisa-p rinter.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow2.php?image=/Museum/Adverts/ lisaadvert.jpg Aka the DEC LA50, is this the same c.itoh printer you mean? > There was also a color inkjet printer for the Lisa by Canon I think - > unfortunately I can't find any information about its protocol, nor does > it have any drivers in common OS's. This is interesting news, I've got pictures of Lisae with imagewriters and that printer up there ^^^^ but no mention of an inkjet, I didn't know colour inkjets were available at the time! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 5 17:19:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 23:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <00c001c7008f$8006a170$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Nov 4, 6 11:04:30 pm Message-ID: > The problem is some people cannot see another person perspective nor take > into account their finances when they post a question here (or anywhere > else). If I respond to somebody I try to answer their question and maybe Exactly. (and for the record, I consider myself to be guilty here...) > expand on it a little to see where they are coming from and want to go (if > its not a yes or no answer). Some people overlook simpler fixes while others > want to reinvent the wheel (and know there are easier or cheaper ways but I feel it's reasonable to point out that other solutions exist _if the poster has not already said he doesn't want to consider them_. For example, if somebody asks about rewinding the motor an an LA36 (something that I have had to do once), it would br reasonable to say that you had a spare motor for sale, but not if the poster had already said he wanted to keep the machine as original as possible. And if the OP then says in reply to a post that there's a spare motor available that he would like to keep the machine original, or wants to learn how to rewind a motor then it is not reasonable (IMHO) to flame him for this. > don't care). Lets face it many people look at some of the things I collect > (vintage video capture gear) and tell me I can get a USB dongle to capture > from my VCR for $50 with software included. I know I can do that, but the > older, bulkier, and finicky hardware and software is more fun to play with > (and some of it is better quality too). For a hobby I don't see what the > problem is with using older equipment, but I would expect somebody to point > me to an easier method if I was doing this for a living. I know the feeling. I bought a second-hand 3-tube JVC video camera a few years ago (a beautiful piece of semi-vintage electronics). As I said when I bought it, if I seriously wanted to make home movies I'd buy a modern camcorder. But this device is just plain fun to tinker with. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Nov 5 17:36:49 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 23:36:49 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <4549AF29.9050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 2/11/06 08:41, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > heh heh :) I thought it funny that you mentioned Ferranti too. But no, this > was a much larger machine in a white metal case - it's not one I've ever seen > mentioned in any text about Ferranti before. I've nosed through my D Block pictures and can't see anything of this one but a couple of the Advance86. Which room is it in? > I'd wondered if the white machine was some weird forerunner, but if the text > on www.old-computers.com is right then the Advance 86 developed out of a much > smaller home machine and retained the original board alongside a newer Somewhere I've got a writeup on the A86 from its launch but I'm guessing it's in Personal Computer News which means I'm 250 miles away from it right now. That'll have internals pix and hopefully a bit of history probably written by The Register's own John Lettice. Rah. Oh, I've saved you a twin-cpu Alpha 2000 4/233 if you're interested, if you ain't does anyone else want it? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 5 18:49:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 16:49:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: frequency doubling Message-ID: <20061106004904.12569.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Isnt this a relatively simple matter? There wont a circuit that halves the duration/doubler the freq of 5 digital signals be run of the mill? __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) From ray at arachelian.com Sun Nov 5 19:25:33 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:25:33 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454E8F0D.4030208@arachelian.com> Yes, that is infact, the Apple Dot Matrix Printer (aka ADMP) which is identical to the ImageWriter, except that it works over a VIA 6522 parallel port instead of the serial port that the ImageWriter uses. They are all versions of the C. Itoh 8510. I'm not familiar with the DEC LA50, but it's very likely that, it too, is a C. Itoh. The Inkjet printer for the Lisa is the Canon PJ 1080A. I wish I had some real docs for this printer, but I don't. Lisa's LisaDraw routines (later rewritten in 68000 assembly and ported to the Mac and renamed as QuickDraw) do support color, although its display is 1 bit black and white, so, if you print a graphic that has color on this printer, you'll get color. I believe these were 16 colors, so 4 bit. There was also a Daisywheel printer for the Lisa too, which was very interesting, since it supposedly could also print graphics too according to the advertisements. I can imagine that it must have used a single period character to poke dots, so it must have been super slow. I couldn't find any real docs for it however. Adrian Graham wrote: > On 3/11/06 03:10, "Ray Arachelian" wrote: > > >> Adrian Graham wrote: >> >>> Correct, another example is the electrostatic Sinclair ZX Printer or the dot >>> matrix that matched the Apple Lisa >>> >> The ADMP? That later became the ImageWriter. It was the same C. Itoh >> printer as the ImageWriter, just with a parallel interface. The Lisa >> > > I mean this one: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=lisa/apple-lisa-p > rinter.jpg > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow2.php?image=/Museum/Adverts/ > lisaadvert.jpg > > Aka the DEC LA50, is this the same c.itoh printer you mean? > > >> There was also a color inkjet printer for the Lisa by Canon I think - >> unfortunately I can't find any information about its protocol, nor does >> it have any drivers in common OS's. >> > > This is interesting news, I've got pictures of Lisae with imagewriters and > that printer up there ^^^^ but no mention of an inkjet, I didn't know colour > inkjets were available at the time! > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 5 19:41:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:41:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw Message-ID: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why they werent written in assembly TBW) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Nov 5 20:09:54 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:09:54 -0600 Subject: 11/44 is alive, as is the 11/34! In-Reply-To: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454E9972.1080500@ubanproductions.com> That is great news Jay! FWIW, the 11/44 can run BSD 2.9 (or possibly 2.10, were there any later revs?)... --tom Jay West wrote: > The 11/44 has come to life. It passed all the diags I threw at it, plus > booted RT11. I did that on an RL02 and would like to switch that system > to an RA81. Once the RA81 is in place, that system is done. But at least > the cpu is known working. > > In case I didn't mention it here, the 11/34 is also alive. Turns out the > "odd" diagnostic results I was seeing are actually what a working system > prints. The /34 booted RT11 as well and ran a few small compiles. All I > have to do now is move the cpu from the table on the side of the rack > and mount it inside the rack. Then that box is done as well. > > Once those above cosmetic issues are done, I'll take a short break and > then revisit the 11/45 project which was temporarily shelved :D I'd love > to spend more time now with the /44 and /34 to get TSX up and running, > play with sysgening a new system, etc. But no time to play yet, I'm > under orders to consolidate and get rid of stuff. > > Thanks to all who gave input, advice, and knowledge! > > Jay West > > > > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Nov 5 20:13:20 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:13:20 -0600 Subject: Heathkit Hero Jr. In-Reply-To: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454E9A40.7000907@ubanproductions.com> A fellow from the UK posted a while back about the Heathkit Hero Jr., but I lost my copy of the message. Did anyone save it? --tnx --tom From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Nov 6 00:05:44 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 22:05:44 -0800 Subject: 11/44 is alive, as is the 11/34! In-Reply-To: <454E9972.1080500@ubanproductions.com> References: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454E9972.1080500@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <454ED0B8.1010404@mindspring.com> Tom Uban wrote: > That is great news Jay! FWIW, the 11/44 can run BSD 2.9 (or possibly > 2.10, were there any later revs?)... > > --tom > > Jay West wrote: >> The 11/44 has come to life. It passed all the diags I threw at it, plus >> booted RT11. I did that on an RL02 and would like to switch that system >> to an RA81. Once the RA81 is in place, that system is done. But at least >> the cpu is known working 2.11BSD is the latest, which also happens to support TCP/IP, so all you need to add to your 11/44 is a DELUA or DEUNA and you get get it on the internet. Of course another megabyte or two of memory would help too (IIRC you said earlier that your 11/44 had only 1MB). I put up a network-ready 2.11BSD configuration that I use on my real 11/44 (and also runs on SIMH) at http://www.AK6DN.com/PDP-11/2.11BSD/ Probably the biggest hurdle would be getting it onto some disk media; it's a little big for RL02s. The current config uses a 1GB RA72 disk image, but the total occupied storage is probably less than 100MB. Don North From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Nov 6 00:53:55 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 01:53:55 -0500 Subject: RA82 questions Message-ID: <200611060153.55556.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, Jay's talk about RA81's spurred me on to work on testing out my RA82 disks. I've got an SA482 which has 4 RA82's, and drive 0 seems to work just fine, after I unlocked the disk heads. :) The other three aren't working as well though, it seems. One seems to give a fault when it spins up, but after it spins up, runs the on-board diagnostics ok. The relevent log of the on-board diagnostics session are below (starting from when I pressed the "RUN" button to spin it up): ------------------------------------------------------------- RA82> FRONT PANEL FUNCTION IN PROGRESS %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1B %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1C %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1D %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1E %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:20 %RA82-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 ERROR:4B UNIT:001 REFER TO SERVICE MANUAL RA82> %RA82-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 ERROR:FE UNIT:001 REFER TO SERVICE MANUAL RA82> RUN DIAG %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:04 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:05 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:06 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1A %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1C %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1D %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1E %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:21 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:22 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:25 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:26 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:27 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:28 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:29 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:2A %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0A %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0F %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:10 %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0E ---------------------------------------------------------------- Looking at the manual, error 4B is "index pulse error" and FE is "Slave speed check timeout". Considering that they only occur when the disk is first spun up, is it maybe really ok, but the disk doesn't spin up as fast as the logic wants it to? The errors seem to be consistent (they happen each time I power up the drive). Has anyone seen something like this before, and is it something that I should be worried about? The service manual seems to suggest that the servo module or microprocessor module could be bad. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From superfiko74 at libero.it Mon Nov 6 04:42:55 2006 From: superfiko74 at libero.it (superfiko74 at libero.it) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:42:55 +0100 Subject: fyi: new superPET doc Message-ID: E' il manuale dell' Apl per il superpet. Se hai un superpet allora puo' servirti :) Mai visto un superpet se non in foto, sarebbe una macchina interessante da vedere ed usare, so che ci vuole poco ma e' il piu' particolare ed interessante dei vari PET/CBM. Ciao Andrea ---------- Initial Header ----------- >From : cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To : cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc : Date : Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) Subject : fyi: new superPET doc > I've added the SuperPET Waterloo APL manual on my site. > > http://www.trailingedge.com/cbm8/ > > (Warning it is 38 meg) > > ----- > David Williams > http://www.trailingedge.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ Mutuo da 200.000?? Tassi ridotti:euribor +0.70%. Solo per richieste online. www.mutuionline.it http://click.libero.it/mutuionline6nov From alberto at a2sistemi.it Mon Nov 6 05:02:20 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:02:20 +0100 Subject: fyi: new superPET doc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454F163C.2030004@a2sistemi.it> superfiko74 at libero.it ha scritto: > E' il manuale dell' Apl per il superpet. Se hai un superpet allora puo' servirti :) Niente, pensavo lo avessi tu nella tua collezione di macchine rarissime, mi ricordavo tante foto di macchine simili. -- ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Visita il mio museo di vecchi computers: http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 Skype : albertorubinelli ------------------------------------------------------ From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Nov 6 06:15:19 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:15:19 -0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices Message-ID: <075301c7019d$4cc99100$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Witchy wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I know this was published in the UK media in 1983 which > doesn't really vouch for its authenticity, but it gives a > good idea of prices for the micros that were available at the time. > > It's the A-Z of Personal Computers published by Video Press > in 1983 and some of its prices are thus: (all UK pounds, > multiply by roughly 2 to get the $) > > Tandy TRS80 M1: 199 > Apple ][ and ][e: 1209/1270 > Osborne 1: 1430 > Commodore 4016: 632 > Apple ///: 2418 > Apple Lisa: 7500 > DEC Rainbow 100: 2300 > HH Tiger: 2700 > IBM PC: 2390 > N* Advantage/Horizon: 2300/2295 > ACT Sirius 1 (Victor 9000): 2754 > Intertec Superbrain II: 2100 Well, I have in front of me here the Winter 1983 edition of Micro Choice (published by Argus), which gives the following prices (all UKP): Apple ][e 845.00 Atari 800 245.00 BBC Model A 299.00 BBC Model B 399.00 Commodore 64 299.00 Dragon 32 199.00 Epson HX-20 499.00 Jupiter Ace 89.95 Lynx 225.00 NASCOM3 376.00 NewBrain 233.00 Osborne 1 (not priced) Research Machines RML 380Z From 500.00 Sharp MZ-80A 549.00 Sord M5 189.95 TI 99/4A 199.00 VIC-20 169.99 Genie I 279.00 Genie II 299.00 ZX81 49.95 ZX Spectrum (16K) 125.00 ZX Spectrum (48K) 165.00 The following machines are all reviewed (some in great depth), with several optional extras priced. Note that many appear in the table above with different prices.... Why? Who knows...: Sharp MZ-80A: 477.00 MZ-80AEU Expansion Unit: 115.00 MX-80FB Dual Disk Unit + Cable: 706.00 (!!!) MZ-8AFI Disk Interface: 115.00 MZ-80P6 Printer + cable: 496.45 MZ-8BP51 Printer Interface: 34.50 MZ-80IO2 Universal Interface: 51.75 MZ-8AP5R Character Generator: 14.95 Disc BASIC: 34.65 Epson HX-20: 411.00 + VAT Microcassette (drive I assume) 75.00 extra 16KB RAM Module 80.00 + VAT 16KB RAM/16KB ROM Module 80.00 + VAT Acoustic Coupler 220.00 + VAT TV Display Adapter 100.00 to 150.00 Laser 200: 69.95 16K RAMpack 29.95 64K RAMpack 59.95 Printer Interface 19.95 Joysticks (price per pair) 19.95 Lightpen 19.95 Colour Genie: 168.00 Pair of Joysticks 49.49 EG 2012 Centronics Printer I/F 30.50 (includes cable) Discs TBA ACT Sirius 1: Single Floppy with 128K RAM 2,195.00 + VAT Dual Floppy with 128K RAM 2,695.00 + VAT Dual Floppy with 256K RAM 2,895.00 + VAT 128K RAM board 395.00 + VAT Sinclair ZX Spectrum: ZX Spectrum 16K 99.95 ZX Spectrum 48K 129.95 ZX Printer 39.95 ZX Microdrive 49.95 RS232 Interface 49.95 (or, if purchased with a m/drv) 29.95 Acorn Electron: 199.00 Sharp MZ-700: 250.00 Modular Printer/Plotter 130.00 Modular Cassette recorder 40.00 Jupiter Ace: 89.95 Oric 1: Oric 1 16K RAM 99.95 Oric 1 48K RAM 139.95 Oric MCP-40 Printer/Plotter 169.95 (40.00 voucher with every Oric 1) Hitachi 3" drive under 200.00 Sharp PC-1251: 79.95 Including CE125 printer/cass 99.95 BBC Micro: Model A 299.00 Model B 399.00 Sord M5: (without joypads) 149.95 Sharp MZ-3541: 000.00 (a typo, presumably) Dragon 32: 175.00 Joystick Unit 10.00 ROM Cartridges 20.00 Cassette software 8.00 5.25" disc drive SSSD 275.00 48k Lynx: 225.00 Commodore 64: 299.00 + VAT Graphics Cartridge 50.00 approx Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 04/11/2006 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 6 04:59:22 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 04:59:22 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454F158A.4030101@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 2/11/06 08:41, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > >> heh heh :) I thought it funny that you mentioned Ferranti too. But no, this >> was a much larger machine in a white metal case - it's not one I've ever seen >> mentioned in any text about Ferranti before. > > I've nosed through my D Block pictures and can't see anything of this one > but a couple of the Advance86. Which room is it in? Hmm, it used to be in the same room as the A86 - but it may depend on when you took the pictures as Ben and I had a good sort-out in that room. "PC clones" tended to end up in the room up the top of D Block (the one with the Xerox kit and micro trainers in it) >> I'd wondered if the white machine was some weird forerunner, but if the text >> on www.old-computers.com is right then the Advance 86 developed out of a much >> smaller home machine and retained the original board alongside a newer > > Somewhere I've got a writeup on the A86 from its launch but I'm guessing > it's in Personal Computer News which means I'm 250 miles away from it right > now. That'll have internals pix and hopefully a bit of history probably > written by The Register's own John Lettice. Aha - worth a look, then. I suspect we've got the same issue at Bletchley, but that doesn't help me much right now :-) > Rah. Oh, I've saved you a twin-cpu Alpha 2000 4/233 if you're interested, if > you ain't does anyone else want it? Hmm, personally I'd say no - we've got a couple of nice Alphas already; if it was anything other than DEC I'd still be tempted if it was one we didn't have - but space is limited and we're swamped with DEC items as it is; I'd rather save the room for something from a different manufacturer. You may want to prod the BP mailing list about it though just to be sure. cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 6 05:04:55 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 05:04:55 -0600 Subject: RA81 destruction In-Reply-To: <001001c70106$e9c8c8f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454B2F3E.4040306@yahoo.co.uk> <001001c70106$e9c8c8f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <454F16D7.3060004@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I had written... >> > but they are clearly dead > > To which Jules responded. >> How do you know? > > Because the collector on this list who gave me all the RA81's said they > were tested and dead, and he put the "Bad HDA" tags on the front. But > you're right I shouldn't take his word for it. I should retest them all. I suppose the 'right' thing to do would be to at least run the diags and offer the units up on here along with diag results. Seems a shame to kill a unit for the sake of what might be an easy repair to you or someone else. But... time is not infinite and all that, plus these aren't exactly easy critters to ship if someone *did* want one! :-) (I'm facing the same problem with some of my stuff - masses of untested parts, potentially the chance of building up a few working systems which then would be useful to people, but no time to actually do it. I suppose it's one of those things that plagues a lot of us...) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From ray at arachelian.com Mon Nov 6 10:39:45 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:39:45 -0500 Subject: lisagraf In-Reply-To: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454F6551.6000909@arachelian.com> Chris M wrote: > what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C > presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why > they werent written in assembly TBW) > > Pascal. Most of the Lisa OS and Mac was written in Pascal. QuickDraw was written by Bill Atkinson. I'm sorry, it was originally called LisaGraf, and renamed to QuickDraw on the Mac. :-) Lots of good stuff here: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Busy_Being_Born.txt http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Busy_Being_Born,_Part_2.txt From James at jdfogg.com Mon Nov 6 11:24:34 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:24:34 -0500 Subject: PolyPaks (was Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone?) Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256A08@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I'd like to see the ads again. > > The adverisments really defined just how people saw the techology. > > I think I still have a Poly Paks data sheet for a uA709 > op-amp (TO- 99). Was pretty amazing stuff back then. I grew up in Wakefield Massachusetts. I used to ride my bike over to PolyPaks and raid their dumpster on a regular basis. It looks like they used to get all sorts of stuff for evaluation that they'd toss. Sometimes I'd have money to spend there too. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 6 12:01:17 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:01:17 -0600 Subject: RA81 destruction References: <006701c6ff51$ba673e40$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454B2F3E.4040306@yahoo.co.uk><001001c70106$e9c8c8f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454F16D7.3060004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <01d101c701cd$941dc190$6700a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote... > I suppose the 'right' thing to do would be to at least run the diags Yup, I was planning on running diags and piecing together as many working units as I could. However, given the previous testing done on them I strongly suspect many have bad HDA's, and as such would be better as parts donors to a drive that has a working HDA. My impression is that donor HDA's are not generally available, and thus few people ran these drives, and thus few people would want any parts. > But... time is not infinite and all that, Exactly. I'm under a time crunch and need to stop talking about it and get some gear out of here. Best way I can see to do that is put together the systems I want from all the parts, keep a spare set, then dispose of the remaining bits (here, ebay, trash, etc.). I'd love to stop and play with the systems as they come up, but time currently doesn't allow. In other words, if the wife sees me putting together systems and the trash pile growing - good. If she sees me sitting there running one... ;) > (I'm facing the same problem with some of my stuff - masses of untested > parts, potentially the chance of building up a few working systems which > then would be useful to people, but no time to actually do it. I suppose > it's one of those things that plagues a lot of us...) Which is why I posted here about it. One - to let people know of my predicament and see if MAYBE someone wants to take a few off my hands and/or help with testing. Two - to get advice from others who have them already as to what parts are most in need and should be saved for my own (and perhaps others) use as spares. Jay From wizard at voyager.net Mon Nov 6 14:02:35 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:02:35 -0500 Subject: Translations: new superPET doc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1162843355.25887.23.camel@linux.site> The original text appears as quoted text. The translation appears as a response. No comments of my own in this message. Warren ******************************************* On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 11:42 +0100, superfiko74 at libero.it wrote: > E' il manuale dell' Apl per il superpet. > Se hai un superpet allora puo' servirti :) It's the Superpet APL manual. If you have a Superpet, it may be of some use :) > Mai visto un superpet se non in foto, sarebbe una macchina > interessante da vedere ed usare, so che ci vuole poco ma > e' il piu' particolare ed interessante dei vari PET/CBM. I've never seen a Superpet, except in photos; it would be an interesting machine to see and to use. I know that it was not a popular machine, but it is the oddest and most interesting of the PET/CBM machines. ******************************************* On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 12:02 +0100, Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI wrote: > superfiko74 at libero.it ha scritto: > > > E' il manuale dell' Apl per il superpet. Se hai un superpet allora > puo' servirti :) > > Niente, pensavo lo avessi tu nella tua collezione di macchine > rarissime, > mi ricordavo tante foto di macchine simili. superfiko74 at libero.it wrote: > It's the Superpet APL manual. If you have a Superpet, it may be of some use :) None -- I thought you had one in your collection of rare machines; I remember many photos of similar machines. Alberto Rubinelli From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 14:22:02 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:22:02 +1300 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/06, Chris M wrote: > what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C > presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why > they werent written in assembly TBW) I'm not an authority on the Lisa, but my recollection of the early Mac days suggests that if LisaDraw wasn't written in 68000 assembler, it was Pascal. I'm virtually certain it wasn't C. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 6 14:29:08 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:29:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061106122449.E64970@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C > presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why > they werent written in assembly TBW) MOST of the Lisa software seems to have been written in Pascal. Part of Job's "we want the next (sic) generation, NOT a repeat of what we already have!" philosophy that caused him to hire some CS graduates with NO experience in order to get a fresh approach. Some of them didn't even know that current Pascal compilers were designed for TEACHING programming, and did not produce output suitable for real world. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 14:33:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:33:52 +1300 Subject: 11/44 is alive, as is the 11/34! In-Reply-To: <454E9972.1080500@ubanproductions.com> References: <003501c70126$aad09590$6700a8c0@BILLING> <454E9972.1080500@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/06, Tom Uban wrote: > That is great news Jay! FWIW, the 11/44 can run BSD 2.9 (or possibly > 2.10, were there any later revs?)... 2.11BSD. My recollection of the era is that most commonly, you'd choose between 2.9BSD for a non-Split I&D machine with some pre-MSCP disk, and 2.11 for a Split-I&D machine with plenty of memory and possibly an MSCP disk. Lately, though, I think the MSCP driver has been backported to 2.9BSD, but I haven't tried it. I have plenty of experience with 2.9BSD and 11/24-type hardware (on real hardware, installed from real magtape), and virtually no experience with 2.11BSD. One of these days, I want to get 2BSD working on a Pro350 or Pro380, but that's kinda low on the project pile. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 14:38:54 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:38:54 +1300 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) Message-ID: On 11/7/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > > what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C > > presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why > > they werent written in assembly TBW) > > MOST of the Lisa software seems to have been written in Pascal. > Part of Job's "we want the next (sic) generation, NOT a repeat of what we > already have!" philosophy that caused him to hire some CS graduates with > NO experience in order to get a fresh approach. Some of them didn't even > know that current Pascal compilers were designed for TEACHING programming, > and did not produce output suitable for real world. I had the "enjoyable experience" to be the first seasoned programmer to join a small company that was doing work on the PDP-11 and the PC-AT. Most of _my_ work was in PDP-11 and 80286 assembler, but the main guy was in his first programming job of his career and did everything in Pascal. :-P The company was mapping out a switch to C for a variety of good reasons, but unfortunately, due to external causes (not the choice of Pascal), they went out of business before we started the transition. At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my favorite language. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 6 14:40:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:40:31 -0700 Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH Message-ID: In case anyone didn't already know: The Classic Computing and Gaming Show -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 6 14:44:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:44:10 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:29:08 -0800. <20061106122449.E64970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061106122449.E64970 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > [...] Some of them didn't even > know that current Pascal compilers were designed for TEACHING programming, > and did not produce output suitable for real world. Ironicly, when I was the TA for "Introduction to Programming using Pascal" at the UofU in 1988, they used LightSpeed Pascal for the Mac classic. It was kind of like TurboPascal/TurboC in that the compiler did everything in memory and was therefore quite fast. It had decent integration with the Mac Toolbox so you could do all your normal style Mac stuff. It was a pretty decent environment and I remember being impressed with it because on previous Pascal implementations I had used, I had considered them to be fairly lame. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 6 14:45:08 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 20:45:08 +0000 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/11/06 20:22, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On 11/6/06, Chris M wrote: >> what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C >> presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why >> they werent written in assembly TBW) > > I'm not an authority on the Lisa, but my recollection of the early Mac > days suggests that if LisaDraw wasn't written in 68000 assembler, it > was Pascal. I'm virtually certain it wasn't C. I was going to say Pascal earlier because I've got (I think) every bit of Apple written Lisa software available and the only development environment is the Pascal Workshop, but then I wondered if it was possible to write an OS in Pascal and thought there must be a C variant somewhere. (I have quite a bit of ignorance on Pascal, so it would seem :o)) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 15:07:44 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:07:44 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> In the Apple anniversary edition of this week in tech, Andy Hertzfeld said that almost all the original Mac apps were written in pure assembler, as the compilers for the 68000 weren't that advanced at the time, and they needed to wring out every last bit of performance from the platform. I'd assume the same would be true for the Lisa apps. It's a good episode to listen to, if you're into early Apple lore. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 6 10:32:37 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:32:37 -0600 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my > favorite language. They don't call it a teaching language for no reason :-) I've got good memories of Turbo Pascal on the PC though, but then I suppose Borland did outfit it with a lot of features to make it more reasonable. Being able to drop into assembler sure was handy, too. I have no good memories of the Pascal environment on the Mac, though (afraid I don't remember if that was Apple's own variant or a third party's, but it sure was horrible) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 6 15:18:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 14:18:26 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:07:44 -0500. <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason McBrien" writes: > In the Apple anniversary edition of this week in tech [...] Link? I searched and couldn't find this episode. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Nov 6 15:48:14 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:48:14 -0800 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <454FAD9E.2090508@mindspring.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > In the Apple anniversary edition of this week in tech, Andy Hertzfeld > said > that almost all the original Mac apps were written in pure assembler, > as the > compilers for the 68000 weren't that advanced at the time, and they > needed > to wring out every last bit of performance from the platform. I'd > assume the > same would be true for the Lisa apps. No, all of the Lisa software (applications and OS) were written in Pascal. The core graphics code (which became QuickDraw on the mac) was all written in highly tuned 68000 assembly language. As mentioned above all the key macintosh apps were written in assembly because the macintosh was built as a memory-starved machine (128K RAM to start) whereas the Lisa started out at 512KB but shipped as 1MB machines. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 6 16:18:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 14:18:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061106141642.A71256@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Nov 2006, Jason McBrien wrote: > In the Apple anniversary edition of this week in tech, Andy Hertzfeld said > that almost all the original Mac apps were written in pure assembler, as the > compilers for the 68000 weren't that advanced at the time, and they needed > to wring out every last bit of performance from the platform. I'd assume the > same would be true for the Lisa apps. NO!!!!!! The slow speed of the Lisa software, DUE TO IT BEING in Pascal, was the REASON why the Mac aps were re-written in assembly. From ray at arachelian.com Mon Nov 6 16:22:26 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:22:26 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454FB5A2.7070801@arachelian.com> Richard wrote: > In article <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85 at mail.gmail.com>, > "Jason McBrien" writes: > > >> In the Apple anniversary edition of this week in tech [...] >> > > Link? I searched and couldn't find this episode. > http://www.twit.tv/48 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 6 16:23:24 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:23:24 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> References: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my > > favorite language. > > They don't call it a teaching language for no reason :-) Yeah, but the best languages are repurposed and modified to do things that their designers never imagined. Look at what happened to Perl. How many people do Practical Extraction and Reporting with it? It reinvented itself multiple times through the 90's. BASIC has also mutated into forms completely unimaginable in Dartmouth timesharing. I despise lots of the mutations, but it is far from dying out! While the original Pascal was indeed useless beyond classroom exercises, it had enough spirit that it caught on in a couple areas. While I can name a couple of odd areas that COBOL made it into (believe it or not, compilers were written in COBOL) and Smalltalk lives on in a few odd corners completely unrelated to language research, those "caught ons" are minor compared to the areas that Pascal did succeed at. Tim. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 16:32:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 14:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: new flat panel w/old puter was Re: frequency doubling In-Reply-To: <20061106004904.12569.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061106223216.62122.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> everything old is new again... Actually one would only need to double the video lines and hsync, not vsync (though you could, given the monitor could handle 120hz refresh). But as an answer to my own question (not really), I got this from the electronics_101 yahoo group: Re: [Electronics_101] frequency doubling Chris, Check the monitor specs (not on the box either, check out a web site). I have a newer Dell LCD Flat screen working with an old PC that has a CGA adapter. I had to make an adapter plug to go from a DB9 to DB15HD. The CGA scan rate was I think 30Hz or 60Hz, and 15kHz horiz (it's been a while). But most moniters can handle many scan rates. --- Chris M wrote: > Isnt this a relatively simple matter? There wont a > circuit that halves the duration/doubler the freq of > 5 > digital signals be run of the mill? > > > > __________________________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more > powerful email and get things done faster. > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link For just $24.99/mo., Vonage offers unlimited local and long- distance calling. Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Nov 6 16:34:10 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:34:10 -0600 Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003a01c701f3$add9c7c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Yep, it's 8 hours away from me and a 4 hour show. 4 freakin hours. What a waste. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:41 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH > > In case anyone didn't already know: > > The Classic Computing and Gaming Show > > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 6 16:43:26 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:43:26 -0700 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> References: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <454FBA8E.9030404@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my >> favorite language. > They don't call it a teaching language for no reason :-) > > I've got good memories of Turbo Pascal on the PC though, but then I > suppose Borland did outfit it with a lot of features to make it more > reasonable. Being able to drop into assembler sure was handy, too. I > have no good memories of the Pascal environment on the Mac, though > (afraid I don't remember if that was Apple's own variant or a third > party's, but it sure was horrible) All I remember from Pascal programs I have seen is that every thing is 1 large program. I/O is from the punched card era and every body handles SETS differently. Did any one ever use TINY Pascal? > > . From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 6 16:11:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:11:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: frequency doubling In-Reply-To: <20061106004904.12569.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 5, 6 04:49:04 pm Message-ID: > > Isnt this a relatively simple matter? There wont a > circuit that halves the duration/doubler the freq of 5 > digital signals be run of the mill? Frequency doubling is relatively easy, if you'll accept a pulse on the output for each edge on the input. But that's most definitely not what's needed heer. Much harder is to half the width of each pulse in the input signal, preserving the relative timeings of the 5 signals. And even that's not what uou need here. TO go from CGA to VGA you have to double the horizontal sync freqeucny (and 'speed up' the video signals), but keep the vertical sync frequency unchanged. You therefore double the number of lines in the picture. Essentially what uou have to do is sample the colour signals and read them into a bufffer, then read that buffer out twice as fast -- and twice -- to the monitor. Not too hard, but not a couple of TTL chips either. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 6 17:02:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:02:31 -0800 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061106122449.E64970@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com>, <20061106122449.E64970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <454F4E87.19816.15D7ACF@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2006 at 12:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > MOST of the Lisa software seems to have been written in Pascal. > Part of Job's "we want the next (sic) generation, NOT a repeat of what we > already have!" philosophy that caused him to hire some CS graduates with > NO experience in order to get a fresh approach. Some of them didn't even > know that current Pascal compilers were designed for TEACHING programming, > and did not produce output suitable for real world. At CDC back in the early 70's, a bunch of the systems software folks jumped on the Pascal bandwagon and deployed their own version called SYMPL. Up until that time, the entire OS was assembly and many of the utilities and compilers were assembly and FORTRAN. I don't think adoption of SYMPL did much for performance--or maintainability, particularly in the first applications that were ported from assembly to it. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 6 17:18:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:18:49 -0700 Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:34:10 -0600. <003a01c701f3$add9c7c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: In article <003a01c701f3$add9c7c0$3c0718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, "Julian Wolfe" writes: > Yep, it's 8 hours away from me and a 4 hour show. 4 freakin hours. What a > waste. A waste? Explain, please? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 17:18:46 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 23:18:46 +0000 Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH In-Reply-To: <003a01c701f3$add9c7c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <003a01c701f3$add9c7c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 11/6/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Yep, it's 8 hours away from me and a 4 hour show. 4 freakin hours. What a > waste. It's 2 hours from my place, but since it's on Memorial Day weekend, it conflicts with my long-term commitment to give science lectures at a convention in Columbus 5 minutes from my house. :-/ I'd love to go, but the timing is awkward. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 6 17:22:21 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 15:22:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2006, Tim Shoppa wrote: > While I can name a couple of odd areas that COBOL made it into > (believe it or not, compilers were written in COBOL) and Smalltalk > lives on in a few odd corners completely unrelated to language > research, those "caught ons" are minor compared to the areas > that Pascal did succeed at. I took a class taught by a professor who would constantly talk about a new form of COBOL coming soon called COOL for COBOL Object Oriented Language. Does anyone here know what this is/was? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Mon Nov 6 17:31:49 2006 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (dzubint at vcn.bc.ca) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 15:31:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers Message-ID: ahhhh, I just finished installing the newest (Nov 1 2006) v4.0 OpenBSD on my MicroVAX 3100 (17 years old) It really gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that they're still useable. Thomas Dzubin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 17:35:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 15:35:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > While I can name a couple of odd areas that COBOL > made it into > (believe it or not, compilers were written in COBOL) > and Smalltalk > lives on in a few odd corners completely unrelated > to language > research, those "caught ons" are minor compared to > the areas > that Pascal did succeed at. I had thought there were more lines of code written in Cobol then in any other language (up until a certain point anyway, maybe ~2000 A.D). All that business stuph running on Big Blue iron and whatnot. Wasn't Smalltalk the first OO language? I conversed with a dude who did some work w/another early OO language, Modula-2. He wrote a BBS program for a '286 utilizing hi-performance serial cards (many of which had onboard 80186's) that could handle 6,000 simultaneous chatters in 256 rooms. Tried to sell it to GEnie, but they decided on using some mini for the task. Delphi ain't too bad from what I hear. That's Pascal. And has a visual environment that's probably as good as VB's or better. Pascal does have strange tokens though... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link For just $24.99/mo., Vonage offers unlimited local and long- distance calling. Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 17:41:22 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 15:41:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061106234122.26837.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> no, but I think there is an OO form of FORTRAN known as F. You gotta love FORTRAN --- David Griffith wrote: > I took a class taught by a professor who would > constantly talk about a new > form of COBOL coming soon called COOL for COBOL > Object Oriented Language. > Does anyone here know what this is/was? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 17:44:14 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 15:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061106234414.68297.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> right. Now I just need to get MINIX running on a Tandy 2000. I'll settle for XENIX though. Can't find it :( --- dzubint at vcn.bc.ca wrote: > > ahhhh, I just finished installing the newest (Nov 1 > 2006) v4.0 OpenBSD on > my MicroVAX 3100 (17 years old) > It really gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that they're > still useable. > > Thomas Dzubin > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Nov 6 17:51:29 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:51:29 -0600 Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003e01c701fe$7aea39c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> If I lived 5 minutes from there I still wouldn't go. It's 4 hours long. It's not even worth the setup time! > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 5:19 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH > > > In article <003a01c701f3$add9c7c0$3c0718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, > "Julian Wolfe" writes: > > > Yep, it's 8 hours away from me and a 4 hour show. 4 > freakin hours. What a > > waste. > > A waste? Explain, please? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 6 18:02:30 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:02:30 -0700 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061106234122.26837.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106234122.26837.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454FCD16.8090001@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > no, but I think there is an OO form of FORTRAN known > as F. You gotta love FORTRAN Well after they dropped Sense Switches FORTRAN* has never been the same. In many ways FORTRAN is more machine dependant than you think since FORTRAN compliers range from the the PDP-8 to the PDP-10 and that is about as different in hardware range as they come. *PS Real Fortran has version numbers not years like 77 or 90. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 6 18:06:26 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:06:26 -0700 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061106234122.26837.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106234122.26837.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454FCE02.8040003@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > no, but I think there is an OO form of FORTRAN known > as F. You gotta love FORTRAN http://www.faqs.org/faqs/fortran-faq/ Try the FAQ. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 6 17:54:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:54:28 -0700 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:35:18 -0800. <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061106233518.87488.qmail at web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Wasn't Smalltalk the first OO language? Probably the first language designed explicitly as supporting an object oriented programming style, although object oriented programming styles can be adopted for almost any procedural language. Its possible to write OO style assembly language, for instance. You're just managing all the object instance plumbing yourself. > I conversed > with a dude who did some work w/another early OO > language, Modula-2. Modula-2 wasn't OO. It was procedural with modules (hence the "modula"). It was an attempt to rectify the shortcomings of Pascal and influenced things like Ada. > Delphi ain't too bad from what I hear. That's Pascal. Delphi is Pascal with object oriented features tossed in explicitly. > And has a visual environment that's probably as good > as VB's or better. Pascal does have strange tokens > though... Delphi has basically been killed by .NET -- at a recent code camp event, the local Delphi user group dude was there and he said as much. Delphi's visual oriented design was good and provided a VB6 like "RAD" approach to building applications. They (Borland) carried this over to Borland C++ Builder, essentially using the Pascal object plumbing in C++ with language extensions but it didn't quite ever take off beyond the Borland enthusiasts. C# now does the equivalent in a better way, IMO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 6 17:55:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:55:20 -0700 Subject: CCAG 2007 May 26, 2007 Lorain, OH In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:51:29 -0600. <003e01c701fe$7aea39c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: In article <003e01c701fe$7aea39c0$3c0718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, "Julian Wolfe" writes: > If I lived 5 minutes from there I still wouldn't go. It's 4 hours long. > It's not even worth the setup time! So don't go as an exhibitor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 18:17:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:17:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <454FCD16.8090001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20061107001718.55211.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > > no, but I think there is an OO form of FORTRAN > known > > as F. You gotta love FORTRAN > > Well after they dropped Sense Switches FORTRAN* has > never been the > same. In many ways FORTRAN is more machine dependant > than you think > since FORTRAN compliers range from the the PDP-8 to > the PDP-10 and that > is about as different in hardware range as they > come. > > *PS Real Fortran has version numbers not years like > 77 or 90. > You mean like Wat IV or V or, IIRC, FORTRAN IV and such. Those are the years the specs were written. You can call a compiler whatever you want, but it helps to know with which spec it's compliant. GCC at last check only supported F77 stuph. Funny.. I recently obtained, with docs, IBM Pro FORTRAN 1.0 by Ryan-McFarland (not M$), truely F77 compliant (unlike M$'s version). But the manual says this is to the best of IBM's ability to ascertain. But I guess caveats like that apply w/o anything being said. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 6 18:24:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:24:38 -0800 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:31 PM -0800 11/6/06, dzubint at vcn.bc.ca wrote: >ahhhh, I just finished installing the newest (Nov 1 2006) v4.0 OpenBSD on >my MicroVAX 3100 (17 years old) >It really gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that they're still useable. Or... You could just run OpenVMS V7.3 on that MicroVAX :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 6 18:31:44 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:31:44 -0800 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) Message-ID: <454FD3F0.9B03A123@rain.org> > At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my > favorite language. > > -ethan Okay, not ever having learned or used Pascal, what are (were?) some of the limitations of Pascal for production environments? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 18:35:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061107003522.75224.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Modula-2 wasn't OO. It was procedural with modules > (hence the > "modula"). It was an attempt to rectify the > shortcomings of Pascal > and influenced things like Ada. A quick search indicates there were oo extensions. I don't know which implementation the guy was using (I'll have to find out) but I doubt he would say so if it weren't. Wirth was responsible for it also. Didn't know that. > Delphi has basically been killed by .NET So how about Kylix? Being that Linux is inherently anti-M$, I would imagine there is a fervor for it, and one not likely to disappear. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to $300 a year on your phone bill. Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ From ray at arachelian.com Mon Nov 6 18:52:21 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 19:52:21 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061106141642.A71256@shell.lmi.net> References: <5f7d1b0e0611061307q71138612ud061388d795ebc85@mail.gmail.com> <20061106141642.A71256@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <454FD8C5.6050907@arachelian.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > NO!!!!!! > > The slow speed of the Lisa software, DUE TO IT BEING in Pascal, was the > REASON why the Mac aps were re-written in assembly. > And lack of sufficient RAM to run the type of OS it had, and the 8Mhz 68000 CPU being slowed down to 5Mhz due to the video cycles, etc. Mostly, though, because of the transitions between code and all the pushing and popping of parameters onto the stack. If you look through Lisa code from an application through the OS and back, there are several layers you have to go through. A lot of times you'll find an app calling some piece of code that's in a library, that turns around calls another piece of code with the same parameters, which in turns invokes a trap or an A-Line call, which switches to the supervisor context, executes, whatever, and back out two or three layers we go. It's very expensive. Some of it is strange. Instead of using a RTS, some of the code reads a long word into A0 off the stack while fixing A7 to indicate that the value was popped off the stack, then, does a JMP (A0). In some ways, you can also see the different styles of programming involved. The machine code sticks out, because you can see it doing very interesting things that make you go, why did they do that, and when you look in the 68K User + Ref manuals, you get this lightbulb over your head, and you learn how deep their thought processes were and how optimize that bit of code is. The stuff the compiler generates is very obvious. Lots of LINK/ ULNK opcodes, lots of movement on the stack. What's strange is that the Lisa OS has something like 4-5 ways of calling various routines. Some of it is just a relative jump off A5, others are TRAP #7, TRAP #5 which seem to be some sort of trampoline into the OS routines. Weirder still is the way they wrapped 24 bit addresses into the A-Line traps. Those are really JMP statements that go into Supervisor mode. i.e. opcode A234 5678 is really a JMP to address 345678, but with supervisor on! A lot of that stuff is not optimized and it shows. That's not to say that it's a bad thing as it shows that different groups of people worked on different stuff so there are many ways of invoking OS code. If they optimized everything into some "One True Way" it would have been harder to tell. There certainly was a lot of room to optimize though. That was done at least with QuickDraw on the Mac, and mostly out of necessity. If I had to make the statement, I would say that today's code is a lot more like the Lisa's than the Mac's. Anyway, back to QuickDraw. There's a nice article about it here: http://www.aresluna.org/attached/computerhistory/articles/macintoshbyteinterview Which contains these tidbits: *Atkinson: *Like Quickdraw. I won?t even count the first runs in Pascal, but the first runs in assembly language were running 160K bytes, before I added a lot of the new features. It?s now down to 24K bytes with lots more stuff in it. Character-drawing speed is one you look at for drawing an arbitrary size character, an arbitrary starting pixel clipped to an arbitrary area. We were running, when it was being developed on Lisa, about 1000 characters per second the first time. Well, I got that up to 4000. Mac is running about 7000. That?s seven times 9600 baud. This is typical of all of our software packages here. You go through, get the best algorithms first, get the stuff right. Then crunch it down, make a first pass in Pascal, get the algorithms right, find the cleanest algorithms, find all the corners, and make sure they?re tested. Then I translate it into loose assembly language to get down into assembly language and get it working. Then I?ll go through and get all the bugs out again, and I?ll go through and do fine register allocation to figure out what?s the most important thing. This little baby, the 68000, has sixteen 32-bit registers sitting there, and the way you get performance out of that is to keep them full. Keep the registers full of important stuff all the time. That?s the way you make this processor sing. So you go down and you do register allocation, and then you don?t stop. Then you feed it back, you get your people to use it. Quickdraw was designed by ?pull? from applications rather than ?push? from the design team. You provide a facility, watch the applications group try to use it, understand where they misunderstood something ? maybe you?ve got a bad model, you want to make it simpler and cleaner ? or where they don?t have enough performance. And then you go back and you measure, measure, measure, measure. Optimization without measuring is wasted time. Find out where the application?s really spending time and go whump on the code. And any other cases they?re very seldom using, squeeze the down in size, and stretch the other ones. There?s always a trade-off between size and speed. Stretch out the common cases, let them be bigger and much faster, and then keep the generality by squeezing down the infrequent cases. So play your odds. People draw characters in OR mode, a whole lot, and OR mode is about twice as fast as the other modes, so 95 percent of all characters are drawn in OR mode. Statistical measuring of the use of the thing allows you to get much more performance on your average throughput than you can, if you don?t go back and measure. I think we all believe that system software should be done in assembly language at this stage of the game because high-level languages can?t give you the performance and the code density that you can get out of assembly language. ... *Jobs: *We took a 12K-byte Pascal program running on a Lisa and we said we want to do this in 2K and make it faster. But we had that extra year to do that. And we also had the motivation, of course. *Atkinson: *When you?re writing assembly, you know each instruction is going to take 2 microseconds, it?s going to take 4 bytes of memory. In Pascal, you?re removed from that, so you don?t concentrate on performance as much. When I?m doing I/O stuff in assembly language I look at the theoretical maximum speed you can run at. Why not do it as fast as you can possibly do it? Especially when you?re doing disk I/O stuff. How fast can you get into an interrupt and out? ... *Atkinson: *Most of the early people were recruited from Apple... and we have a pirate?s flag that we sometimes put on the roof. The idea is we?re pirates and we go around and try to steal the best we can from anywhere we can get it, and mostly that?s been from Lisa. A lot of it?s been from Lisa, but it?s true in initially putting together the team, too; we try to get the best people we can from anywhere in the company. ... There's more stuff here: http://www.aresluna.org/attached/computerhistory/articles/macintoshsotherdesigners From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Mon Nov 6 19:26:25 2006 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (dzubint at vcn.bc.ca) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:26:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers Message-ID: Mon Nov 6 18:24:38 CST 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Or... You could just run OpenVMS V7.3 on that MicroVAX :^) Well, yes... how about I meet you halfway and just say that OpenBSD is on my one RZ26 drive and VMS v5.5-2 is on the other internal drive. So I get the best of both worlds :-) Thomas Dzubin ps: will OpenVMS 7.3 run in 8MB of RAM? (yeah, yeah, I know...google is my friend) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 19:41:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks Message-ID: <20061107014109.3707.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> from some poor twisted up soul at the opposite end of the globe: > Hi, Can u please tell me how I can make images of > the Xenix disks? Because I > can't read them with DOS since they have a different > format. I've tried > Winimage and ImageDisk but they didn't work. > > I have a lot of these disks, and they are labeled > as: > > Games, Development, Updates, Utilities, > Installation. > > Well, any kind of advice u could give me will be > very much appreciated > because I'm afraid that if I leave them without > making backup they will get > corrupted in the future. Bye! I believe he is using the correct drive (he already booted with these), it crossed my mind. Can't understand why ID or TD wouldn't work. Please help. Please... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! http://www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 6 19:43:28 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:43:28 -0800 Subject: lisadraw Message-ID: " If I had to make the statement, I would say that today's code is a lot more like the Lisa's than the Mac's." -- We are living in a very different world. No one but embedded systems people (and very few of them..) code the way it was done on the original Mac. Today, you have a product that often has a sub-year lifetime. You put things out that are just good enough to sell, and move on to the next generation. No one would buy a PC with the features that could be built with a team the size of the original Mac team today, using their methodology. The only way to get a competitive product is to use a lot of other people's code, because no one is willing to pay for foundation development, only product differentiation. I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the reasons I'm at the Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are built today. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 6 19:45:52 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:45:52 -0800 Subject: imaging XENIX disks Message-ID: > I've tried > Winimage and ImageDisk but they didn't work. "didn't work" isn't particularly helpful HOW didn't ImageDisk work? Did he try using a 360K drive? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 6 19:53:50 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:53:50 -0800 Subject: lisadraw Message-ID: > If you look through Lisa code from an application through the OS and > back, there are several layers you have to go through. How much of the Lisa OS has been reverse engineered / documented? I haven't looked at this in a LONG time. A while ago, people were trying to get a simulator running, but it didn't seem to get very far. I know there have been people looking for this stuff for a long time.. After the Lisa group purge ("A players", etc.) happened, very few people wanted to be known as having worked on it. Even on the inside, it was tough to get people who worked on Lisa to talk about it. From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Nov 6 19:17:56 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 20:17:56 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: References: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200611070159.kA71x6Yl028677@mail.itm-inst.com> At 06:22 PM 11/6/2006, David Griffith wrote: >I took a class taught by a professor who would constantly talk about a new >form of COBOL coming soon called COOL for COBOL Object Oriented Language. >Does anyone here know what this is/was? Object-Oriented COBOL. As in Cobol .NET. All the GUI goodness with all of COBOL's verbosity. Nifty code segments like ENVIRONMENT DIVISION. DATA DIVISION. WORKING-STORAGE SECTION. PROCEDURE DIVISION. INVOKE "segText" OF addForm "SetFocus". (Equivalent to addForm.SegText.SetFocus() in other languages) and ENVIRONMENT DIVISION. DATA DIVISION. WORKING-STORAGE SECTION. 01 DOC-NAME. 05 DOC-OFFICE PIC X(5). 05 DOC-DOCUMENT PIC X(10). 05 DOC-SEGMENT PIC X(10). PROCEDURE DIVISION. INVOKE POW-SELF "CallForm" USING "findBoilerForm". IF DOC-OFFICE NOT = SPACES MOVE DOC-OFFICE TO "Text" OF "officeText" OF addForm MOVE DOC-DOCUMENT TO "Text" OF "docText" OF addForm MOVE DOC-SEGMENT TO "Text" OF "segText" OF addForm. (i.e. addForm.segText.Text = DOC-SEGMENT, etc.) Yes, I've used this quite successfully to migrate some "legacy" VMS code to Windows. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 6 20:04:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 18:04:40 -0800 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454F7938.17406.2043BED@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2006 at 15:35, Chris M wrote: > I had thought there were more lines of code written > in Cobol then in any other language (up until a > certain point anyway, maybe ~2000 A.D). All that > business stuph running on Big Blue iron and whatnot. Don't knock COBOL. It's a targeted-purpose language that has some very powerful features not quite duplicated in other langauges (well, maybe PL/I). Or, to put it bluntly, how does one do a MOVE CORRESPONDING in Modula- 2? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 6 20:10:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 18:10:53 -0800 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <454FCD16.8090001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20061106234122.26837.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <454FCD16.8090001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <454F7AAD.17963.209ED1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2006 at 17:02, woodelf wrote: > Well after they dropped Sense Switches FORTRAN* has never been the > same. In many ways FORTRAN is more machine dependant than you think > since FORTRAN compliers range from the the PDP-8 to the PDP-10 and that > is about as different in hardware range as they come. As in: IF (SENSE SWITCH 3) 130,240 ? Lessee, if you punch a "B" in column 1, the expression is a boolean one; an "I" makes it complex arithmetic. And mixed-mode expressions are a big no-no. At least that's what I remember from 7090 FORTRAN II (running under FMS). Yeah, I guess FORTRAN went downhill when they deprecated the PRINT and PUNCH statements... Cheers, Chuck Was is READ TAPE n and WRITE TAPE n? It's been way too long... From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 20:29:20 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:29:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks Message-ID: <20061107022920.80439.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I cant rightly say cuy I dont rightly know. I suggested he join so maybe well be hearing from him shortly. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > I've tried > > Winimage and ImageDisk but they didn't work. > > "didn't work" isn't particularly helpful > > HOW didn't ImageDisk work? > > Did he try using a 360K drive? > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. http://www.findtherightschool.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Nov 6 22:26:40 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 23:26:40 -0500 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <20061107014109.3707.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> > from some poor twisted up soul at the opposite end of > the globe: > > > Hi, Can u please tell me how I can make images of > > the Xenix disks? Because I > > can't read them with DOS since they have a different > > format. I've tried > > Winimage and ImageDisk but they didn't work. I made images of the Xenix disks I have for my Altos with ImageDisk and it worked for me. I don't recall if Xenix has single density tracks, however it it does, some PC's physically can't read them - I've also seen some formats which are marginal on some PC's, slowing the drive slightly can help. Finally, it could be settings - what is the format of the disk and what type of drive is he using, and what ImageDisk settings are in effect. Unfortunately diskette formats vary widely, and it's not always an exact science to get a PC to read them ... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 6 21:31:54 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:31:54 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <454FD3F0.9B03A123@rain.org> References: <454FD3F0.9B03A123@rain.org> Message-ID: <20061107033154.GC5111@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Marvin Johnston once stated: > > > At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my > > favorite language. > > > > -ethan > > Okay, not ever having learned or used Pascal, what are (were?) some of the > limitations of Pascal for production environments? It's probaby a bit dated, but it explains why, in 1981, Pascal wasn't up to snuff for Brian Kernighan. http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html -spc (Never did much with Pascal personally ... ) From cbajpai at comcast.net Mon Nov 6 21:41:32 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:41:32 -0500 Subject: lisadraw - Why Pascal? In-Reply-To: <20061106122449.E64970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200611070341.kA73fd5F018323@keith.ezwind.net> I'm curious why Larry Tesler and his team from Xerox Parc picked Pascal as the language to build Lisa on...esp. considering the Alto was a BCPL machine (forerunner of C). I know Apple was an early adopter of USCD Pascal...I wonder if had any influences. Did Apple write their own compiler? -Chandra Lisa 2/5 Lisa 2/10 Lisa 1 :-) 91 Lotus Esprit -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 3:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: lisadraw On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C > presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why > they werent written in assembly TBW) MOST of the Lisa software seems to have been written in Pascal. Part of Job's "we want the next (sic) generation, NOT a repeat of what we already have!" philosophy that caused him to hire some CS graduates with NO experience in order to get a fresh approach. Some of them didn't even know that current Pascal compilers were designed for TEACHING programming, and did not produce output suitable for real world. From cbajpai at comcast.net Mon Nov 6 21:45:58 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:45:58 -0500 Subject: Lisa development System? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200611070346.kA73kBGJ018472@keith.ezwind.net> Are there any disk images of the Lisa Pascal Workshop around in the net? Lisa Developer Documentation? I'd love to write some sort of 'Hello World' program for the Lisa. -Chandra Lisa 2/5 Lisa 2/10 Lisa 1 :-) 91 Lotus Esprit From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 6 21:46:56 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 21:46:56 -0600 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <200611070159.kA71x6Yl028677@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200611070159.kA71x6Yl028677@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <455001B0.3010907@jbrain.com> Rick Murphy wrote: > At 06:22 PM 11/6/2006, David Griffith wrote: >> I took a class taught by a professor who would constantly talk about >> a new >> form of COBOL coming soon called COOL for COBOL Object Oriented >> Language. >> Does anyone here know what this is/was? > > Object-Oriented COBOL. As in Cobol .NET. All the GUI goodness with all > of COBOL's verbosity. > Nifty code segments like Not to play down COBOL.net, but IBM has had Enterprise COBOL for some time, which is OO COBOL. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 6 21:56:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 19:56:27 -0800 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <20061107014109.3707.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <454F936B.5239.26A926B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2006 at 23:26, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I made images of the Xenix disks I have for my Altos > with ImageDisk and it worked for me. Same here with the set that I have--5.25" DSHD 80x2x15x512; nothing unusual at all about them. I've even copied them to 3.5" DSHD (keeping the number of sectors per track the same) and installed from that. No problems at all. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 6 22:09:43 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 20:09:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20061106200718.A89163@shell.lmi.net> > Hi, Can u please tell me how I can make images of > the Xenix disks? Because I > can't read them with DOS since they have a different > format. I've tried > Winimage and ImageDisk but they didn't work. WHAT size disks? WHAT machine were they for? Xenix was available for a lot of different machines, including IBM PC. But SOME of the machines that it was available for used formats that the PC FDC can not handle. For example, wasn't there a Xenix available for the Victor 9000? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 7 02:11:25 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 08:11:25 +0000 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <454FAD9E.2090508@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 6/11/06 21:48, "Don North" wrote: > the Lisa started out at 512KB but shipped as 1MB machines. I'm assuming you mean the Lisa 1 here? My first Lisa was the 2/5 edition and shipped as a 512k machine, though to be honest it was a later version running MacWorks. Pretty useless as a LisaOS machine since some of the office apps need 1mb to run. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 7 03:12:51 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 03:12:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2006, dzubint at vcn.bc.ca wrote: > ahhhh, I just finished installing the newest (Nov 1 2006) v4.0 OpenBSD > on my MicroVAX 3100 (17 years old) It really gives me a warm fuzzy > feeling that they're still useable. > > Thomas Dzubin Yup. That was the whole idea behind the large VAX/Alpha "rescue" I did a number of years back. I'd planned to put them back to work doing *BSD and other OSS development. Sadly, I've not yet had the room to set them up, as the only usable systems I got out of the deal were the larger ones. Another unnamed and underhanded person on the list here swiped most of the smaller machines out from under me, though I did get a few mostly functional 4000s. At least the large systems are safely packed and stored until I move into a larger building. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 7 03:16:27 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 03:16:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:31 PM -0800 11/6/06, dzubint at vcn.bc.ca wrote: >> ahhhh, I just finished installing the newest (Nov 1 2006) v4.0 OpenBSD on >> my MicroVAX 3100 (17 years old) >> It really gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that they're still useable. > > Or... You could just run OpenVMS V7.3 on that MicroVAX :^) Does anyone have an archive of OpenVMS releases? How about Digital OSF or Digital UNIX? I'd really like to have an OSF system up at some point to test and debug software on as I get bug reports from OSF users but I don't have a system to work with. From ray at arachelian.com Tue Nov 7 05:28:53 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 06:28:53 -0500 Subject: lisadraw - Why Pascal? In-Reply-To: <200611070341.kA73fd5F018323@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611070341.kA73fd5F018323@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45506DF5.6030408@arachelian.com> Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I'm curious why Larry Tesler and his team from Xerox Parc picked Pascal as > the language to build Lisa on...esp. considering the Alto was a BCPL machine > (forerunner of C). > > I know Apple was an early adopter of USCD Pascal...I wonder if had any > influences. > > Did Apple write their own compiler? > Yes, actually. I think they had a Pascal compiler in the Apple II or III days even. There is nothing inherently wrong with Pascal as a language. Personally, I'd much rather type in { and } than begin and end everywhere, so perhaps the syntactic sugar of other languages was more appealing. The enforced typing and range checking can be a bit annoying, but they do keep your code clean and expose bugs early on - so they are helpful. I suppose you could think of them as training wheels, hence "teaching language." There is one thing that Pascal does better which is strings. Zero terminated strings are problematic in many ways. i.e. buffer overflows, strlen() and strcat have to read in the entire string, so are much slower. PStrings are a lot better, at least when you can choose the width of length integer. (For the original versions, a single byte is a bit limiting.) I think a lot of the issues people have with it was originally aimed at the P-Code versions which, of course was painfully slow. Also lot of the early compilers were poor at optimizing code, and this applies to most compilers as those were the early days. (There was no JIT back then.) I never actually used the Lisa's Pascal compiler to do anything useful, but the LisaWorkshop was not a GUI environment. It was a text based menu system where you invoked the editor (which was a GUI program), the compiler, and other tools separately through a set of text menus. If you were to compare it with, say, Borland's Turbo Pascal, which arrived much further on down the road, it was probably not as fast a compiler, and probably didn't produce code that was as fast. Now Lisa did have an OOP version of Pascal called Clascal. I'm not sure how much of the OS is written in straight Pascal and how much in Clascal, but they did manage to originally miss taking SmallTalk from Xerox. :-) You can find LisaWorkshop here: http://www.macmothership.com/lisacontent/app_lisa.html > Lisa 1 :-) > Wow! You're very lucky! > 91 Lotus Esprit > In more ways than one! From ray at arachelian.com Tue Nov 7 05:46:17 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 06:46:17 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> Al Kossow wrote: > How much of the Lisa OS has been reverse engineered / documented? > Quite a bit of it is documented by Apple itself. There are OS and Pascal Workshop manuals as well as info about the drivers from Apple itself. A few parts were disassembled by David Craig, these are/were available on the web in various forms, mostly PDF's. There are copies of the boot rom source code that are commented, and even there you can see varied styles of coding. > I haven't looked at this in a LONG time. A while ago, people were trying to > get a simulator running, but it didn't seem to get very far. > You're talking to one of them, but I'm not ready to announce anything just yet. > I know there have been people looking for this stuff for a long time.. After > the Lisa group purge ("A players", etc.) happened, very few people wanted to > be known as having worked on it. Even on the inside, it was tough to get > people who worked on Lisa to talk about it. > I'd presume that some of that may be NDA's. A lot of it could be cultural. We are now in a more open society than before (in terms of computing), where as back then things were more closely guarded. Perhaps they feel they'd be breaking trade secrets. Silly after all this time. I don't know why there should be any stigma associated with having worked on the Lisa project. The guys that built it had a huge project on their hands and were able to do some amazing things on the shoulders of what Xerox did. They got very close. But they were too far ahead of their time and Moore's Law didn't allow them to build cheap Lisa's. The Lisa OS was a lot more robust that the original Mac OS. It was close to Unix under the hood and featured things like pipes, virtual memory with paging, etc. Imagine how much effort it was to build a Unix clone out of Pascal, and then add the complexity of writing a GUI from scratch and a full set of applications too. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 7 02:47:20 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 02:47:20 -0600 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45504818.7000604@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: >> I conversed >> with a dude who did some work w/another early OO >> language, Modula-2. > > Modula-2 wasn't OO. It was procedural with modules (hence the > "modula"). It was an attempt to rectify the shortcomings of Pascal > and influenced things like Ada. Acorn were huge fans of it at one time and used it heavily for OS work. I think that's the only place I've come across it being used, personally. I wonder if any other company ever tried to use it for OS development... >> Delphi ain't too bad from what I hear. That's Pascal. > > Delphi is Pascal with object oriented features tossed in explicitly. Turbo Pascal supported all sorts of OO features, though - I've never figured out quite what Delphi brought to the table. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 7 03:03:37 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 03:03:37 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > No one would buy a PC with the features that could be built with a team the > size of the original Mac team today, using their methodology. The only way > to get a competitive product is to use a lot of other people's code, because > no one is willing to pay for foundation development, only product > differentiation. > > I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the reasons I'm at the > Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are built today. It's a very bad thing - it's why most apps (and OSes too) are very resource-hungry and buggy. Taking someone else's module might speed up time to market, but that module always comes with a few extra features which you don't really need, and patching in stuff from all over the place makes it really hard to keep on top of the bugfixing. Seems like a shame to me - I'm sure a lot of people would much rather have a rock-solid app/OS which ran at warp speed, even if they had to wait a little longer for it. From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 08:45:33 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 08:45:33 -0600 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920611070645oeac5eafq80f5b9ddbcc6610f@mail.gmail.com> On 11/7/06, Tothwolf wrote: > Does anyone have an archive of OpenVMS releases? How about Digital OSF or > Digital UNIX? I'd really like to have an OSF system up at some point to > test and debug software on as I get bug reports from OSF users but I don't > have a system to work with. I'd like to second this request., I've got a DECstation running NetBSD that pines for running its original operating system if at all possible. :-) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From pechter at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 09:15:52 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:15:52 -0500 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: <9e2403920611070645oeac5eafq80f5b9ddbcc6610f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920611070645oeac5eafq80f5b9ddbcc6610f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd love to get install media for VAX/VMS going back to the 3.x days... Hell... I'd even like to run 2.5 (IIRC) again. I'd also kill for Ultrix-32's last VAX version. Bill On 11/7/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > > On 11/7/06, Tothwolf wrote: > > Does anyone have an archive of OpenVMS releases? How about Digital OSF > or > > Digital UNIX? I'd really like to have an OSF system up at some point to > > test and debug software on as I get bug reports from OSF users but I > don't > > have a system to work with. > > I'd like to second this request., I've got a DECstation running NetBSD > that pines for running its original operating system if at all > possible. :-) > > -- > "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world > and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." > -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, > "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 09:33:39 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 10:33:39 -0500 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <9e2403920611070645oeac5eafq80f5b9ddbcc6610f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4550A753.3080605@gmail.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > I'd love to get install media for VAX/VMS going back to the 3.x days... > Hell... I'd even like to run 2.5 (IIRC) again. > > I'd also kill for Ultrix-32's last VAX version. I would love to be able to run the unreleased version of MIPS/VMS. Peace... Sridhar From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Nov 7 09:47:54 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 07:47:54 -0800 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <9e2403920611070645oeac5eafq80f5b9ddbcc6610f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >I'd love to get install media for VAX/VMS going back to the 3.x days... >Hell... I'd even like to run 2.5 (IIRC) again. I have some of these, but you need to find a way to get them to media you can use: John From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 7 11:12:08 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:12:08 -0800 Subject: Lisa inside Apple Message-ID: >> I know there have been people looking for this stuff for a long time.. After >> the Lisa group purge ("A players", etc.) happened, very few people wanted to >> be known as having worked on it. Even on the inside, it was tough to get >> people who worked on Lisa to talk about it. >> >I'd presume that some of that may be NDA's. I was a Senior Engineer at Apple for almost 20 years, first in ATG, then in CPU Engineering, and knew most of the people still there during that time that worked on Lisa. They didn't (and for the most part still) don't want to talk about it. > I don't know why there should be any stigma associated with having > worked on the Lisa project. Don North was there earlier than I was, and worked closely with one of the main hardware guys that didn't leave with Jobs when they formed NeXT. He could probably answer this better than I can, but there was an attitude internally that people who worked on Lisa worked on the 'losing' project. This faded out as time went on, and the Mac II and Laserwriter pushed profits up, but it was clearly still there when I started in 1986. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 7 11:15:42 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:15:42 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:31:44 PST." <454FD3F0.9B03A123@rain.org> Message-ID: <200611071715.kA7HFg4h026979@mwave.heeltoe.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my >> favorite language. >> >> -ethan > >Okay, not ever having learned or used Pascal, what are (were?) some of the >limitations of Pascal for production environments? We shipped production systems using Pascal (Oregon) on an 11/23 with TSX. It worked fine. Multiuser database (of sorts) and all. We could go on and on about Pascal but there's little point (IMHO). It didn't lend itself to system programming as much as other languages. The compiler we used generated ok code but lacked the ability to link in external modules and libraries. This was a major shortcoming. But I'm not sure I'd elevate C much higher, except to say the BSD C changed my life and made it easy to crank out production code on cheaper machines which ran almost as well, though not quite as reliable. (I quickly learned that 8" floppy media would self destruct in a 85F room). -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 7 11:47:51 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:47:51 -0800 Subject: Lisa Pascal Message-ID: Lisa Pascal was developed by Silicon Valley Software, who also sold it and a Pascal based operating system to Corvus for the Corvus Concept. SVS also sold a FORTRAN compiler into the early Unisoft Unix market. If you do a hex dump of the Lisa Workshop disc 5, you'll find a 1981 SVS copyright at location 38bb0 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 11:56:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 10:56:13 -0700 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 02:47:20 -0600. <45504818.7000604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <45504818.7000604 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Turbo Pascal supported all sorts of OO features, though - I've never figured > out quite what Delphi brought to the table. Their framework class library, VCL. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 7 12:01:54 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 10:01:54 -0800 Subject: Lisa history Message-ID: > I'm curious why Larry Tesler and his team from Xerox Parc picked Pascal as > the language to build Lisa on...esp. considering the Alto was a BCPL machine > (forerunner of C). > I know Apple was an early adopter of USCD Pascal...I wonder if had any > influences. The original Lisa was going to be a 2901 based machine running a variant of P-Code. This died off pretty quickly once the 68000 was announced. I assume David Craig has this all documented somewhere. I heard the early history from Paul Baker. Lisa had been going for a while before Larry came over from PARC. Just before Larry left Apple, there was an internal talk on Lisa history which gave a chronology of events. Maybe Larry has written this all up somewhere. > Did Apple write their own compiler? See the previous message. It was written by Silicon Valley Software From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 12:01:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:01:53 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:43:28 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the reasons I'm at the > Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are built today. I'll say its a good thing, otherwise a PC with an operating system would still cost $10K, instead of $300. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 12:07:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:07:36 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 03:03:37 -0600. <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <45504BE9.2030803 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > It's a very bad thing - it's why most apps (and OSes too) are very > resource-hungry and buggy. Only if you pick 3rd-party code that is resource-hungry and buggy. Open source code, IMO, is often like this unless it is one of the heavily used apps. Stirling's law still applies, even to open source code, 95% of everything is crap. > Seems like a shame to me - I'm sure a lot of people would much rather have a > rock-solid app/OS which ran at warp speed, even if they had to wait a little > longer for it. They wouldn't be willing to pay that much in wait time, in dollars, or both. Doing things from scratch and optimizing everything everywhere as used to be done when machines were expensive and people were relatively cheap would result in a software product that was inordinately expensive compared to competing wares. In short, you'd be so late and so expensive that very few people would buy your product based on technical superiority. Users get the quality of software that they demand. The bottom line is that the average consumer is more sensitive to price than quality. Commercial software companies have done nothing but satisfy that preference, just as they should. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 12:02:22 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:02:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail Message-ID: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <<>> OK, The first liar doesn't get a chance. Back in the 60's, Tymshare (the company) had a bunch of SDS (later XDS) 940 boxes and they DID have a "mail" command. The problem was that they only could mail between accounts on the same machine. Yes, it was an early form of email, but not routed between machines, only local use. While I don't know about other machines of the era (mostly time sharing boxes) and their "mail" commands, this machine DID have one. I found out (the hard way) that the messages were limited to a few characters (around 300 or so), but since you could share files between "accounts" (file systems were limited in the day), it could be useful to supply pointers to larger things. Thankfully this was before SPAM existed, as we only used mail for "proper" things. Other examples of machines of the day: pdp-6/10, IBM360, GE 235/635. I don't know about what was used on the pdp-6/10 (I have a bit of contact, but not much), but I don't remember any mail commands for IBM360's or the GE machines. (Claim to fame: I've used email in 5 different decades!) -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 2 21:35:47 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:35:47 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems References: Message-ID: <001201c6fef9$2749d620$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > > > > Tektronix also made a very weird printer for its 40x0 graphics > > terminals. The paper is silver-coated! For some of these weird > > Silver, or silver compounds? I thought it was a photographic process, > using a 1-line CRT to expose the photographic paper. > Yes.., I recall those. The cool part about them, *if* I recall correctly, is that the 'printing' was done by leading the individual light sources up to the fixed print bar (which was full width) via fiber optics...., i.e., they could obtain fine resolution without having to locate a mechanical device. I can not for the life of me , recall how the light source(s) were controlled. Which leads me to wonder if anyone ever produced a general purpose oscillagraphic device for conventional printing use, as opposed to a plotter or recorder? John From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Nov 3 13:19:13 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:19:13 +0000 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <454B9035.7060306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200611031828.kA3ISVBs016418@floodgap.com> <454B9035.7060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <454B9631.4050607@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the zest of a Jay >>> West >>> test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a >>> guest >>> at the fest. > >> The smell is the smoking ashes of my dictionary looking for other >> non-infectional forms ending with -est. (as you ... guessed) >> > > Hmm time to put this to rest :"Well now that you mention it, it's hard > to contest the zest of a Jay West > test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a guest > at the fest." :) West's jest, could it be put on his crest? For a knight on a quest it might well be best, if worn on a vest when one is put to the test. Gordon From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 3 18:54:14 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 19:54:14 -0500 Subject: Quipo (was: Discussion of large systems References: <20061103151454.C26922@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000701c6ffab$bfce59e0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > > > Stonehenge. > > > But, it took a LOT of "programmers" to make even a simple change. I was gonna go with the abacus..., strictly on it's strengths of being digital (if you get my drift..) and having an RTOS. My fear is that I will re-ignite the 'What is a computer / what is a calculator?' discussion. John From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Nov 4 11:18:04 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 17:18:04 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200611040033.kA40XIxC074187@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611040033.kA40XIxC074187@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <454CCB4C.1020703@gjcp.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Robert Feldman wrote: >>> No, quipus were to record information, not perfo > rm >> computations or logic. >>> Also, they appeared a couple of thousand years >> after Stonehenge. Most quipus >>> are Inka, which date them after ca. 1100 AD, >> although, IIRC, there are Wari >>> quipus (ca 500AD). The Moche (200 BC-400AD) >> possibly used colored beans in a >>> similar way (the first bean counters!). >> Oldest found so far is about 3000BC ! >> >> http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientwriting/a/c > aralquipu.htm > > Wow, that is old. > > All this talk of quipu's reminds me of one of my > favourite cartoon shows from the early 80's - > Mysterious Cities Of Gold. I don't suppose > anyone knows of any games based on it? No, but I downloaded it off bittorrent and attempted to watch it. I have no idea how I made it through as much of it as I did when I was a kid, but there you go. It's utterly incomprehensible to me now. Gordon. From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Sat Nov 4 13:40:09 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 14:40:09 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > > I just have a RAT-SHACK here. I don't know what you build with the parts > since they seem to be randomly picked for what they stock. Other than > a 2 knobs and 2 bridge rectifers and 4700 uf caps they have almost nothing > here in Canada. > > We want poly-packs back ... how do I get my 2 cent 7400's with 3 working gates > each for my next big project. :) > > > Zane > > I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It seems to be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and markets that they abandon those who put them in business in the first place. I've started haunting hamfests and buying almost any dip package logic I run across. If I needed ANY ordinary 74xx piece, there is no longer any place that it could be purchased where I live. *Maybe* as an outrageously priced ECG part from the one or two remaining repair shops..., but that's it. Sad...., and it bodes ill for the sort of Science Fair / Boy Scout level projects that kids might want to do..., oh, wait, I forgot, they've got video games and the Internet.. John From magneticsciguy at yahoo.com Sat Nov 4 19:39:00 2006 From: magneticsciguy at yahoo.com (YahooMagneticSci Guy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:39:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <20061105013900.91865.qmail@web50902.mail.yahoo.com> Do you know of a group(s) exchanging Radio Shack Science Fair manuals? I'm thinking of rolling all of these into torrent(s) as I get them collected. I have manuals (that I can scan in, in a few phases) for: 28-249 "200 in 1" 28-267 "75 in One" & need manuals 28-245 "20 in 1" 28-259 "130 in One" Thanks much! Brian P.S. Radio Shack itself has a scattered few like (280-0161) "30-in-1" http://support.radioshack.com/support_games/doc18/18973.htm ----------------------------------- "Going back to 2003 and a post you made about the Radio Shack Science Fair 10 in 1... :) I have a manual for the 28-225 if you would like a scanned copy. Just let me know." http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-June/196536.html ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 5 15:06:37 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 16:06:37 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines Message-ID: <0J8900IFQZV6IOL0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:27:53 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Fred Cisin wrote: > >> >> 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) >> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch >> 3) switch with delay >> 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway >> >5) Sleep on the sofa :) >6) Night light > 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Nov 6 01:53:20 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 23:53:20 -0800 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454EE9F0.7080100@msu.edu> To the best of my knowledge, the vast majority of the Lisa's software was written in a dialect of Pascal. This includes the LisaGraf libraries which LisaDraw makes heavy usage of. LisaGraf was ported to 68k assembly and used on the Macintosh (where it was called "QuickDraw"). Josh Chris M wrote: > what were these routines writtenw in originally? (C > presumably I suppose, though one could only wonder why > they werent written in assembly TBW) > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates > (http://voice.yahoo.com) > > > > From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 6 15:58:02 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:58:02 -0500 Subject: lisadraw References: <20061106014154.79113.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002d01c701ee$a1cf2560$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > I'm virtually certain it wasn't C. > > -ethan > Ethan, That is entirely too existential for me ;-) John From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue Nov 7 12:00:20 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 10:00:20 -0800 Subject: Lisa history Message-ID: > I'm curious why Larry Tesler and his team from Xerox Parc picked Pascal as > the language to build Lisa on...esp. considering the Alto was a BCPL machine > (forerunner of C). > I know Apple was an early adopter of USCD Pascal...I wonder if had any > influences. The original Lisa was going to be a 2901 based machine running a variant of P-Code. This died off pretty quickly once the 68000 was announced. I assume David Craig has this all documented somewhere. I heard the early history from Paul Baker. Lisa had been going for a while before Larry came over from PARC. Just before Larry left Apple, there was an internal talk on Lisa history which gave a chronology of events. Maybe Larry has written this all up somewhere. > Did Apple write their own compiler? See the previous message. It was written by Silicon Valley Software From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 7 13:05:06 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:05:06 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <001201c6fef9$2749d620$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107140037.0624df30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that jwhitton may have mentioned these words: >Which leads me to wonder if anyone ever produced a general purpose >oscillagraphic device for conventional printing use, as opposed to a plotter >or recorder? It would depend on how you define "General Purpose." CompuGraphic had one (the 8400 is the one I worked with) that used photo paper you had to develop, but it was designed more for typography. If you define typographic uses as "general purpose" than there was. If not, you prolly won't find any because the photographic paper was quite expensive. I'd wager that Linotype & others had similar systems, but I only worked with the CompuGraphic back in the day. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 13:04:52 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:04:52 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4550D8D4.9010606@gmail.com> Tom Watson wrote: > I don't know about what was used on the pdp-6/10 (I have a bit of contact, but > not much), but I don't remember any mail commands for IBM360's or the GE > machines. I don't believe there was much in the way of email on mainframes until PROFS. I could be wrong, though. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 13:11:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:11:29 -0800 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2006 at 10:02, Tom Watson wrote: > I don't know about what was used on the pdp-6/10 (I have a bit of contact, but > not much), but I don't remember any mail commands for IBM360's or the GE > machines. That's the problem with making a claim to be the "first". Many concepts are evolutionary instead of revolutionary. With email, one has to ask "what's the first time someone cobbled together a JCL script or program to see if someone had left a message in a pre- agreed upon place?" and "When is the first time that someone did this on two connected systems?" I suppose Western Union might have originated the first email system using teletypes, no? It's a networked system and messages are stored in hardcopy form with routing information, so the receiving end can run unattended. I submit that the presence or absence of a "computer" in the middle of all of this is a minor quibble. Who knows, perhaps there was a similar setup in the days of telegraphy? Didn't Edison work on a printing telegraph? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 7 13:12:28 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 13:12:28 -0600 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <0J8900IFQZV6IOL0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J8900IFQZV6IOL0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4550DA9C.7060104@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) >>> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch >>> 3) switch with delay >>> 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway >>> >> 5) Sleep on the sofa :) >> 6) Night light > > 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. 8) Stay where the light is (to paraphrase Kinison) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rcini at optonline.net Tue Nov 7 13:18:10 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:18:10 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <002d01c701ee$a1cf2560$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <009b01c702a1$7690a690$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Wouldn't that be declared "volatile" then? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwhitton Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: lisadraw > I'm virtually certain it wasn't C. > > -ethan > Ethan, That is entirely too existential for me ;-) John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 7 13:19:38 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:19:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the reasons I'm >> at the Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are >> built today. > I'll say its a good thing, otherwise a PC with an operating system > would still cost $10K, instead of $300. There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work perfectly well on hardware that's available for $0 because the latest bloatware no logner runs tolerably on it. More, if you draw finer distinctions (like between FreeBSD and OpenBSD, or between Fedora and Slackware). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 13:29:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:29:40 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2006 at 14:40, jwhitton wrote: > I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It seems to > be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and markets that they > abandon those who put them in business in the first place. What I don't understand is what keeps RS in business. It can't be mobile phones or Dish TV. Certainly not batteries (I think I still have an RS battery club card). A lot of what they sell in the way of cable, etc. can be puchased at Wal Mart and Home Depot. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 7 13:35:54 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:35:54 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <0J8900IFQZV6IOL0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: > > > >Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines > > From: woodelf > > > >Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> > >> 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) my X10 setup won't work thru the ol' knob-n-tube (already tested that) installed in my house -- depending on which circuit's going thru which fuse. However, I've been slowly rewireing the place where I can - specifically so I can use the X10 modules I have. > >> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch He died a few months ago. :-( > >> 3) switch with delay Hadn't thought of that... might have to check the lighting shops here to see what they have in stock... > >> 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway No electro - and I don't want to go battery - that can get expensive when the kiddies forget to turn off lights... > >5) Sleep on the sofa :) Tried that - the back problems hurt worse than the stubbed toes! ;-) > >6) Night light No electro - see above... >7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... do they make 4-way switches? And everyone forgot #8: Win a home remodeling contest so I can get $100,000 so I can afford to pay someone *else* to gut & redo the house in an expedient manner. ;-) But I'm still not silly for stumbling around in the dark. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 7 13:36:03 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:36:03 +0000 Subject: Lisa development System? In-Reply-To: <200611070346.kA73kBGJ018472@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/11/06 03:45, "Chandra Bajpai" wrote: > > Are there any disk images of the Lisa Pascal Workshop around in the net? > Lisa Developer Documentation? > > I'd love to write some sort of 'Hello World' program for the Lisa. My own Lisa page has disk images for most things and David Craig was kind enough to send me copies of his CDs a few years ago. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Apple/lisa/index.php > Lisa 1 :-) *seethes with jealousy* :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 7 13:38:28 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:38:28 +0000 Subject: Lisa history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/11/06 18:00, "Al Kossow" wrote: > The original Lisa was going to be a 2901 based machine running a variant of > P-Code. This died off pretty quickly once the 68000 was announced. > > I assume David Craig has this all documented somewhere. I heard the early > history from Paul Baker. Lisa had been going for a while before Larry came > over from PARC. Just before Larry left Apple, there was an internal talk on > Lisa history which gave a chronology of events. Maybe Larry has written this > all up somewhere. > > See the previous message. It was written by Silicon Valley Software Does anyone mind if I use this and other info to update my Lisa page? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jim at covington.name Tue Nov 7 13:50:29 2006 From: jim at covington.name (Jim Covington) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:50:29 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4550E385.9040704@covington.name> Their customer is the relatively uneducated consumer who walks in and says: "I need a cable to go from this thingy to that thingy." Wal-mart's useless for that kind of help; the salespeople at RS will find you the correct overpriced cable and send you out the door with another $50-100 in accessories and gadgets. I bet 2/3 of their sales $$ volume comes from unplanned or impulse purchases. Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Nov 2006 at 14:40, jwhitton wrote: > > >> I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It seems to >> be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and markets that they >> abandon those who put them in business in the first place. >> > > What I don't understand is what keeps RS in business. It can't be > mobile phones or Dish TV. Certainly not batteries (I think I still > have an RS battery club card). A lot of what they sell in the way of > cable, etc. can be puchased at Wal Mart and Home Depot. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From feedle at feedle.net Tue Nov 7 13:52:14 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:52:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4550E3EE.80502@feedle.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I don't understand is what keeps RS in business. It can't be > mobile phones or Dish TV. Yep, it is. I don't know if this has changed, but back when I worked there, cellular providers paid RS anywhere from $200 - $500 for each new customer we signed up. And, the salesperson's spiff on the sale wasn't counted against the store's P&L, because usually that, too, was funded by the cellular company. I would assume that the satellite provider (I don't remember if RS carries DirecTV or Dish Network), Sirius, and the other service-oriented electronics products RadioShack sells have similar deals. The store I worked at specifically was kept open because we sold cellular phones by the bucket-full. We'd sell a "back wall" product once a day, on a busy week. A mediocre salesperson (which I would count myself as one) would do one to two a day. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 7 13:52:07 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:52:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200611071954.OAA08339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... > do they make 4-way switches? Yes. You need two SPDTs (which you already have) plus as many DPDTs as necessary to fill out the desired quota of switches (which means just one of them, in your case). I've seen it done (at least for three switches). You need to cross-wire the DPDT, but that's no biggie (drop me a line if you don't know the wiring and I'll outline it for you); I think there even exist DPDTs pre-cross-wired to be total no-brainers for this application. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 7 13:58:51 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:58:51 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <454E8F0D.4030208@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 6/11/06 01:25, "Ray Arachelian" wrote: > They are all versions of the C. Itoh 8510. I'm not familiar with the > DEC LA50, but it's very likely that, it too, is a C. Itoh. It's identical to the ADMP only in DEC colours :) I don't have one and a swift google image search turns up nothing, but just imagine a cream version of the ADMP with a special DEC ROM and you're there. A note on the Old-Computers.com site says the LA50 was made by NEC however, perhaps the NEC one was C.Itoh too? > QuickDraw) do support color, although its display is 1 bit black and white, > so, if you print a graphic that has color on this printer, you'll get color. > I believe these were 16 colors, so 4 bit. I've got a picture of that one somewhere but finding it quickly amongst all my pictures might be difficult! > to the advertisements. I can imagine that it must have used a single > period character to poke dots, so it must have been super slow. I > couldn't find any real docs for it however. Time to dig my CDs out I think..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Nov 7 14:07:43 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:07:43 -0600 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4550E78F.1080001@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: ... > Who knows, perhaps there was a similar setup in the days of > telegraphy? Didn't Edison work on a printing telegraph? I don't know, but he was a late-comer if he did. The first granted fax for a patent was 1843: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Bain_(inventor) Quite a guy. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Nov 7 14:07:55 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:07:55 -0600 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <454B9631.4050607@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <002101c702a8$69b72500$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> This is getting old now. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 1:19 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: test > > woodelf wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >>> Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the > zest of a Jay > >>> West test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest > you be a pest > >>> as a guest at the fest. > > > >> The smell is the smoking ashes of my dictionary looking for other > >> non-infectional forms ending with -est. (as you ... guessed) > >> > > > > Hmm time to put this to rest :"Well now that you mention > it, it's hard > > to contest the zest of a Jay West test as it's best to keep > that nest > > abreast, lest you be a pest as a guest at the fest." :) > > West's jest, could it be put on his crest? For a knight on a > quest it might well be best, if worn on a vest when one is > put to the test. > > Gordon > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 14:14:52 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:14:52 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That's the problem with making a claim to be the "first". Many > concepts are evolutionary instead of revolutionary. Nearly all, I think. Then the waters get muddy with lies, half-truths, politically charged claims, ignorance, and so forth. > With email, one > has to ask "what's the first time someone cobbled together a JCL > script or program to see if someone had left a message in a pre- > agreed upon place?" and "When is the first time that someone did > this on two connected systems?" Another problem with record breaking claims is that often strings are attached, and that just cheapens everything. "Hey, I have the worlds largest garden gnome with a green hat holding a mushroom in United States" is simply not as impressive at "Hey, I have the worlds largest garden gnome". > I suppose Western Union might have originated the first email system > using teletypes, no? It's a networked system and messages are stored > in hardcopy form with routing information, so the receiving end can > run unattended. I submit that the presence or absence of a > "computer" in the middle of all of this is a minor quibble. Yes, the WU networks were surprisingly advanced for a bunch of switches and relays. It is a good thing the Greenkeys people have an interest in this stuff, as I have found a lot of computer people conveniently ignore* the networks that existed before ARPAnet. AUTODIN anyone? *A good example of adding strings, I think. Strings being first packet-based peer to peer network, or something like that. > Who knows, perhaps there was a similar setup in the days of > telegraphy? Didn't Edison work on a printing telegraph? They may have predated Edison. Certainly by Edisons time telegraph inkers and keyers were reasonably common. -- Will From charlesmorris at hughes.net Tue Nov 7 14:28:30 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:28:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) Message-ID: <4187604.1162931310466.JavaMail.?@fh121.dia.he.tucows.com> ----Original Message---- All I remember from Pascal programs I have seen is that every thing is 1 large program. I/O is from the punched card era and every body handles SETS differently. Did any one ever use TINY Pascal? I remember back in '81 writing a lot of 1802 assembly language for a Discrete Fourier Transform processor (TTL and HC chips) in a sonobuoy project (PC boards 20" long and only 3" wide)... now you just throw in a DSP chip that runs on milliwatts... Anyhow I was very happy when "Micro Concurrent Pascal" came out, so I could write the control program and user-interface routines in a high- level language. Of course it didn't have good checking, as I discovered after chasing an intermittent crash for days with only a scope and logic analyzer. A junior programmer had put a subscript value of 60 in the middle of a group of variables, although the array itself was defined as [1..20]. It wasn't easy to spot by eye even once we had found it. So a location 40 bytes away was being overwritten, and sometimes to a value that would kill the program, sometimes not! -Charles From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 7 14:36:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:36:00 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1162408830.6425.86.camel@linux.site> References: <1162408830.6425.86.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <0285B42D-4359-46DD-8F8B-F34332F788AF@neurotica.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > For myself, I like to compare algorithms. There was a > WONDERFUL DOS > program out there back in the early IBM PC days that took random data > (or data pre-sorted in various ways) and sorted it using various > algorithms, from bubble sort to heap sort to quicksort. The cool > thing > was that all the retrieval and display code was identical, so one > could > literally WATCH the data being sorted, and the time it took was > affected > ONLY by the efficiency of the sorting algorithm. VERY instructional. > This program was called, unimaginatively, SORTDEMO. As computers got > faster, it became pointless, as ALL the sorts were over about the same > time they started, so one could no longer watch the data being > re-arranged. I just checked, and I still have that program. Maybe > I'll > set up an old PC just to run it... it's sort of like a cyber-lava- > lamp. Could you make that program available somewhere? I'd love to see that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 15:39:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:39:54 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:19:38 -0500. <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200611071921.OAA07952 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work > perfectly well [...] Assuming all I care about with my PC is clone-ware of commercial software and xterm, yeah, that's useful. Otherwise, its a turd wrapped in silver foil. At any rate, you miss my point. Even those "free" operating systems aren't written in hand-crafted assembly. They are written with exactly the same techniques and tools used by commercial operating systems. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 15:41:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:41:16 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:29:40 -0800. <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45506E24.2771.9D39F2 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > [...] A lot of what they sell in the way of > cable, etc. can be puchased at Wal Mart and Home Depot. It depends on how pedestrian your cabling needs are. I needed to buy some RS-232 adapter dongles recently (gender benders and the like) and Rat Trap was the only place that had anything like that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 7 15:39:08 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 13:39:08 -0800 Subject: OT: 4-way light switches / was Re: New monitors on old machines References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> <200611071954.OAA08339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4550FCFC.C97DB5F6@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... > > do they make 4-way switches? der Mouse wrote: >... > if you don't know the wiring and I'll outline it for you); I think > there even exist DPDTs pre-cross-wired to be total no-brainers for this > application. Yes, there is such a thing as a 4-way switch in the standard residential-light-switch-fits-in-a-wall-box-with-cover-plate style. They are - obviously - sold in much smaller volume than the 2-way (SPST) or 3-way (SPDT) types so they are much more expensive (~$20 instead of ~$2). A small hardware store probably won't have them, large places like Home Depot probably do if you look in the right obscure corner, otherwise go to a commercial electric parts supplier. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 15:52:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 13:52:13 -0800 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2006 at 3:03, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's a very bad thing - it's why most apps (and OSes too) are very > resource-hungry and buggy. Taking someone else's module might speed up time to > market, but that module always comes with a few extra features which you don't > really need, and patching in stuff from all over the place makes it really > hard to keep on top of the bugfixing. I don't know--I'm kind of ambivalent on the subject. Old hardware was generally much less reliable than the humblest modern PeeCee. And while it seems to be a rule of thumb that doing the same task requires ever-increasing amounts of hardware resources, consider what we CAN do with modern systems. I was reminded of this ever-increasing resources business yesterday when I was getting a couple of extra systems ready for the Freecycle crowd. One system happened to be a Cyrix PR233+ Socket 7 Mobo with 32MB of memory and an old 1GB hard drive (a very shaky MTS Champ). The first surprise was that the installation program informed me that 32MB was insufficient to run installation without first activating swapping. The second was that 32MB is insufficient to run the graphical installation script. And the default install required almost the full GB. Step back and think about it for awhile--put yourself back 20 years to 1986 and consider what you could have done with a gig of disk space and 32 megs of RAM. Think about where such resources would put you 30 years ago... So, bloat is everywhere. Probably in 10 years, if I live that long, I'll be mumbling the same thing about OSes that require 1TB of disk and 32GB of RAM. :) Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 16:22:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <4550DA9C.7060104@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061107222202.38244.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >>> 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, > controllable by TRS80) > >>> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch > >>> 3) switch with delay > >>> 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway > >>> > >> 5) Sleep on the sofa :) > >> 6) Night light > > > > 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the > hall. > > 8) Stay where the light is (to paraphrase Kinison) 9) the Clapper - clap on...clap off LOL 10) umm carry a pocket flashlight ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 7 16:25:28 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:25:28 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611071954.OAA08339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> <200611071954.OAA08339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200611071725.28486.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 November 2006 14:52, der Mouse wrote: > >> 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > > > > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... > > do they make 4-way switches? > > Yes. You need two SPDTs (which you already have) plus as many DPDTs > as necessary to fill out the desired quota of switches (which means > just one of them, in your case). I've seen it done (at least for > three switches). > > You need to cross-wire the DPDT, but that's no biggie (drop me a line > if you don't know the wiring and I'll outline it for you); I think > there even exist DPDTs pre-cross-wired to be total no-brainers for > this application. Yes, in fact they're called a "4-way" switch at your local hardware or electrical supply store (because they have 4 terminals). There's some explanation complete with ASCII art diagrams here: http://www.homeautomationindex.com/4waywire.html Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 7 16:36:53 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:36:53 +0000 Subject: PERQs In-Reply-To: <075301c7019d$4cc99100$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: Hello sah, Apologies for dumping that PERQ rescue on you like that, I thought it had been well done and dusted but the owner had been bothering the Retrobeep list admin once a month. Want me to ring the guy to get his address and stuff? cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 7 16:38:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:38:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20061107143304.M32741@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Nov 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > my X10 setup won't work thru the ol' knob-n-tube (already tested > that) installed in my house -- depending on which circuit's going thru > which fuse. However, I've been slowly rewireing the place where I can - > specifically so I can use the X10 modules I have. Works for me, so there may be additional factors. IF that is an issue of 220 being split into two 110s, then a capacitor bridge may solve it. Smarthome.com, etc. sell those if you don't want to touch it. OR,... using an RF control panel with a remote receiver permits you to put RF remote receivers in multiple spots. > > >> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch > He died a few months ago. :-( sorry. > >7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... do they > make 4-way switches? IF you get your X10 working, "3-waY" X10 switches can have more than two switches. > And everyone forgot #8: Win a home remodeling contest so I can get $100,000 > so I can afford to pay someone *else* to gut & redo the house in an > expedient manner. ;-) > But I'm still not silly for stumbling around in the dark. whatever gets you through the night :-) From rcini at optonline.net Tue Nov 7 17:12:59 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:12:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <00a601c702c2$443abe80$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I don't know if it can be simply stated as profit-chasing, but that is the ultimate outcome. The reality is, the "hobby" that we all practice has fewer and fewer members as time goes on and you can't profitably support a shrinking customer base given the high cost of running a chain retail store the size of Radio Shack. This is the same reason why I believe Heath-Kit went out of business -- people (well, enough to support the chain profitably) stopped building kits. Radio Shack can't make money off of pushing $0.99 74xx clips because the market is so narrow, the costs of stocking so high, and there are so many more places to get it for $0.29. Now, granted, some lead time is needed to get the $0.29 price, so you can't just run out to Digi-Key or Mouser and pick up a chip, but I bulk order stuff for various projects and "stock" some stuff myself. Also, some projects use similar components, so if I need a Max232 for a project, I'll order 2 or 3 because I know I'll need another one for something else. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwhitton Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 2:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? > > I just have a RAT-SHACK here. I don't know what you build with the parts > since they seem to be randomly picked for what they stock. Other than > a 2 knobs and 2 bridge rectifers and 4700 uf caps they have almost nothing > here in Canada. > > We want poly-packs back ... how do I get my 2 cent 7400's with 3 working gates > each for my next big project. :) > > > Zane > > I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It seems to be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and markets that they abandon those who put them in business in the first place. I've started haunting hamfests and buying almost any dip package logic I run across. If I needed ANY ordinary 74xx piece, there is no longer any place that it could be purchased where I live. *Maybe* as an outrageously priced ECG part from the one or two remaining repair shops..., but that's it. Sad...., and it bodes ill for the sort of Science Fair / Boy Scout level projects that kids might want to do..., oh, wait, I forgot, they've got video games and the Internet.. John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 7 17:38:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:38:37 +0000 Subject: PERQs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops, why isn't there a 'recall mail and re-address' feature :) Should've been a PM, that one, you might've guessed. Move on, nothing to see here! On 7/11/06 22:36, "Adrian Graham" wrote: > Hello sah, > > Apologies for dumping that PERQ rescue on you like that, I thought it had > been well done and dusted but the owner had been bothering the Retrobeep > list admin once a month. > > Want me to ring the guy to get his address and stuff? > > cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 7 17:36:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:36:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200611072338.SAA10637@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Old hardware was generally much less reliable than the humblest > modern PeeCee. That runs directly counter to my experience. I run two "peecee" machines and at least a half-dozen Suns (old Suns, back when Sun still used SBus, and one that goes back to the 68k era). The two peecees have given me more hardware trouble than all the rest of the machines put together. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 7 17:39:13 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:39:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611071725.28486.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> <200611071954.OAA08339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071725.28486.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200611072340.SAA10665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Yes, in fact they're called a "4-way" switch at your local hardware > or electrical supply store (because they have 4 terminals). Ah! I'd always wondered why three-way switches were called three-way when there are only two control points - and four-way switches four-way when they give three, four, or more control points. Thanks for explaining. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 7 17:06:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:06:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <001201c6fef9$2749d620$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> from "jwhitton" at Nov 2, 6 10:35:47 pm Message-ID: > Yes.., I recall those. The cool part about them, *if* I recall correctly, is > that the 'printing' was done by leading the individual light sources up to > the fixed print bar (which was full width) via fiber optics...., i.e., they > could obtain fine resolution without having to locate a mechanical device. I > can not for the life of me , recall how the light source(s) were controlled. I thought it wsa a spexial 1-axis CRT with the deflection axis perpendicual to the direction of paper movement. Although the printer was noramlly used with a vector display, the printer was really a raster device. It's possibke to read out the stored charge image in a storage CRT, this was done by scanning an electron beam over it. The horixontal deflection of the beam was syncronised to the deflection of the beam in the printer's CRT, the vertical deflection of the readout beam to the paper motion. _Somewhere_ I have the service manual to one of these printers, but I can't instantly put my hand on it. > > Which leads me to wonder if anyone ever produced a general purpose > oscillagraphic device for conventional printing use, as opposed to a plotter > or recorder? There have been, of coruse, many oscilloscope cameras over the years, normally using a Polaroid film. I have something called a Polaroid Videoprinter 4. Polaroid claim they never made it, but anyway. What it consists of is a small CRT monitor (TV rates, monochrome CRT), a wheel with R,G,B colour filters, a Polaroid camera (SX70 film back + enlarger lens (which is, of course, designed to be used at that sort of object/image distance) and a bit of electronics to control it. You feed in RGB video, it selects each in turn and feeds it to the monitor wit hthe appropriate filter in the path between the CRT and lens. After all 3 colours have been used, the print is ejected in the normal way. I've heard of other, higher-resolution versions, I think Sigma Graphics made one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 7 17:39:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:39:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 7, 6 02:35:54 pm Message-ID: > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... do they > make 4-way switches? I don't know if you do wiring the same way across the Pond, but over here the classic 2-way switch circut has a SPDT (changeover, form C) switch at each end, The fixed contacts are linked, that way there's a connection betwwen the 2 moving contacts if the switches are set to the same positions, and no connecion if theyr'e in opposite positons. To get a 3-way switch you conenct an ;intermediate switch' in the 2 wires that link the fixed conatacts of the 2 end switches. This switch is a 4-terminal device (obviously) and is electrically the same as a reversing swithc (that is, a DPDT switch with the fixed contacts of the 2 poles cross-coupled). Since the intermeidate switch effectively reverses the connections between the fixed contacts of the end switches, what you end up with is a circuit where : With the intermediate swithc in one state, theres a connection if the 2 outer switches are set the same way And with the intermediate swtich in the other state there's a connection if the 2 outer switches are set in opposite ways. A moments though will make you realise this is nothing other than a 3-input partity generator. And a bit more thought will show you that you can have as many intermediate switches as you want. So a 4 way circuit can be obtained by just adding one more intermediate switch. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 17:48:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:48:01 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 13:52:13 -0800. <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > And while it seems to be a rule of thumb that doing the same task > requires ever-increasing amounts of hardware resources, [...] I'll dispute that rule of thumb. We are *not* doing the same task we used to do at all. With increased processing power came increased expectations. There isn't a single user these days that would put up with what we called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling text, interview style. > Step back and think about it for awhile--put yourself back 20 years > to 1986 and consider what you could have done with a gig of disk > space and 32 megs of RAM. ...and no virtual memory, no GPU, no windowing system, not even 256 color graphics much less 24-bit per-pixel graphics. Hell, in 1986 you'd be lucky to have floating-point in hardware. > So, bloat is everywhere. The biggest bloat is in expectations, not the hardware or software designed and built to meet those expectations. Just as it should be. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 17:50:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:50:02 -0700 Subject: FA: HP 7970E digital tape unit Message-ID: Dunno what this is, but its from Hooks/Texarkana which seems to be disposing of lots of minicomputer stuff over the past year. Photos: Lot: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 17:54:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:54:10 -0700 Subject: FA: LOT (9) HP MDL 9825B DIGITAL COMPUTER SYSTEMS Message-ID: Pics: Lot: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 17:55:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:55:27 -0700 Subject: FA: Litton disk drives? Message-ID: What do these go with? I didn't know Litton made disc drives. Pics: Lot: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 7 18:04:36 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:04:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611080009.TAA11069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There isn't a single user these days that would put up with what we > called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling text, interview style. False, actually; I'm a counterexample. I can and do put up with a glass-tty interface on occasion. (Add cursor addressing - which I for one had in 1980 - and I would even call it common for me to use such an interface.) >> Step back and think about it for awhile--put yourself back 20 years >> to 1986 and consider what you could have done with a gig of disk >> space and 32 megs of RAM. > ...and no virtual memory, no GPU, no windowing system, not even 256 > color graphics much less 24-bit per-pixel graphics. Hell, in 1986 > you'd be lucky to have floating-point in hardware. Amusingly enough, in 1986 I was working on a machine with either 300 or 600 megs of disk (two drives, and I can't recall whether it was 300M between them or 300M each), virtual memory, a GPU (though not called such), 262144-colour graphics (6bpp for each of the three primaries), and floating point in hardware (possibly involving some microcode). No windowing system, though, and not much RAM (I don't recall how much, if I ever knew - probably something like 4M or 6M). >> So, bloat is everywhere. > The biggest bloat is in expectations, Agreed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 18:09:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:09:47 -0800 Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? Message-ID: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really has me mystified: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 7 18:11:14 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061107160941.X36720@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > expectations. There isn't a single user these days that would put up > with what we called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling text, > interview style. I'm single; I'm a user; I miss the "good old days". But, other than that, you are right. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 7 18:11:32 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:11:32 -0500 Subject: X10 Hall light (was New monitors on old machines) Message-ID: <01C702A1.FB877FE0@mse-d03> --------------Original Message: From: Roger Merchberger Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines >my X10 setup won't work thru the ol' knob-n-tube (already tested >that) installed in my house -- depending on which circuit's going thru >which fuse. However, I've been slowly rewireing the place where I can - >specifically so I can use the X10 modules I have. I doubt that the knob-n-tube is the problem; have run X10 stuff 100% reliably in my ancient 3-story knob & tube house for a decade (except for the occasional module failure). The RF stuff is another story however... Have you tried the .1 uf phase coupling cap (or the "official" phase coupler)? >> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch >He died a few months ago. :-( Sorry to hear it; so did my cat... :-( >> 3) switch with delay >Hadn't thought of that... might have to check the lighting shops here to >see what they have in stock... While you're there, look for a wall switch with IR sensor & delay; sounds perfect for your app, although you might have trouble finding one that'll work in your 3-way setup (if you'd still need it). >7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. >It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... do they >make 4-way switches? Yes, but that'd require additional wiring. >And everyone forgot #8: Win a home remodeling contest so I can get $100,000 >so I can afford to pay someone *else* to gut & redo the house in an >expedient manner. ;-) Can't beat that! m From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 7 18:32:50 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:32:50 -0800 Subject: Litton disc drives Message-ID: The drive is a CDC 9762. The tape is a variant of the Cipher 880 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 18:47:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:47:06 -0800 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4550B88A.22382.1BFDAC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2006 at 16:48, Richard wrote: > I'll dispute that rule of thumb. We are *not* doing the same task we > used to do at all. With increased processing power came increased > expectations. The best thing I can say about Vista is that it's ALMOST as fast as XP, which is ALMOST as fast as 2000 which seemed to be significantly slower than NT 4.0, which was lots slower than NT 3.51. Win95 on the same hardware is a speed demon, even in Win32 mode. Never mind that 95 doesn't know what to do with much more than 64MB of RAM. Mind you, Vista wants half a gig minimum of RAM to do its "almost" job... User interface to programs is largely the same. Look is a little different. Cheers, Chuck . From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 18:57:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 16:57:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <200611072338.SAA10637@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20061108005734.18040.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > > Old hardware was generally much less reliable than > the humblest > > modern PeeCee. > > That runs directly counter to my experience. > > I run two "peecee" machines and at least a > half-dozen Suns (old Suns, > back when Sun still used SBus, and one that goes > back to the 68k era). > The two peecees have given me more hardware trouble > than all the rest > of the machines put together. Who made the peecees? And please describe the hardware troubles. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. http://www.findtherightschool.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 7 19:02:03 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really has me mystified: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 Isn't it still possible to get a brand-new PCI catweasel that will do exactly what this thing does for less money? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 19:07:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:07:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061108010706.21075.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really > has me mystified: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 > > Cheers, > Chuck ePay...land of the Uber-nerd (and you thought they were all on this list ). tee hee Dude, you did say it would work with 8" drives...mystery solved :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 19:09:25 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:09:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061108010926.80089.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Griffith wrote: > Isn't it still possible to get a brand-new > PCI catweasel that will > do exactly what this thing does for less money? Good point, but possibly not as vintage an approach. What do I know... And you do realize that timing can be everything ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 19:19:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 17:19:37 -0800 Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <20061108010706.21075.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061108010706.21075.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4550C029.3596.1DD9F8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2006 at 17:07, Chris M wrote: > Dude, you did say it would work with 8" > drives...mystery solved :) Hmmmm, I've got a couple of the M S 8" adapter boards; wonder if I could get $250 the each for them? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 19:20:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:20:16 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:04:36 -0500. <200611080009.TAA11069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200611080009.TAA11069 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > > There isn't a single user these days that would put up with what we > > called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling text, interview style. > > False, actually; I'm a counterexample. You're not a user. You're a geek. You don't count! ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 19:21:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:21:08 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:11:14 -0800. <20061107160941.X36720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061107160941.X36720 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > On Tue, 7 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > > expectations. There isn't a single user these days that would put up > > with what we called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling text, > > interview style. > > I'm single; > I'm a user; Nah, by definition noone on this list falls into the noun category of "user" as I was stating things. Not even me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 19:30:52 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:30:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <4550C029.3596.1DD9F8F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061108013052.33016.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> "M S" = Miniscribe? Certainly not MicroShaft LOL LOL Thanks, but I'll stick with the controllers embedded in my NEC APCs. I also have a System 23/Datamaster (don't ya just love the name). Stupid spindles never stop spinning... I also have a 3rd party adapter allowing ooh 5 1/4" drives to work with my APC (by Butler Flats Associates - sounds like a firm who's business is to find "flats" for their clients. Or maybe butlers. Or maybe flats w/butlers ready to go LOL LOL LOL). But how times have changed. Can't imagine too many people emptying their wallets for a card that'll allow the use of 5 1/4's. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Nov 2006 at 17:07, Chris M wrote: > > > Dude, you did say it would work with 8" > > drives...mystery solved :) > > Hmmmm, I've got a couple of the M S 8" adapter > boards; wonder if I > could get $250 the each for them? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 19:32:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061108013251.33491.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article > <200611080009.TAA11069 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, > der Mouse > writes: > > > > There isn't a single user these days that would > put up with what we > > > called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling > text, interview style. > > > > False, actually; I'm a counterexample. > > You're not a user. You're a geek. You don't count! > ;-) Not so much so that he bid on Chuck's auction. But then again he's probably already got a few stashed away ;) __________________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to $300 a year on your phone bill. Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 7 19:34:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 17:34:13 -0800 Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <20061108010706.21075.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061108010706.21075.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4550C395.20562.1EAFF09@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2006 at 17:07, Chris M wrote: > ePay...land of the Uber-nerd (and you thought they > were all on this list daily basis>). tee hee Seems that once the price passed $125, two bidders decided to slug it out. BTW, does anyone have a 80C188 or 80C186 development board that they'd like to be shed of? If so, drop me a line. --Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 19:37:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:37:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article <20061107160941.X36720 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > > > On Tue, 7 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > > > expectations. There isn't a single user these > days that would put up > > > with what we called a "user interface" in 1979 > -- scrolling text, > > > interview style. > > > > I'm single; > > I'm a user; > > Nah, by definition noone on this list falls into the > noun category of > "user" as I was stating things. Not even me. Fine, but how many qualify for the uber-nerd category (I mean how much more of a nerd is there then someone who didn't get enough of this crappola when it was current LOL LOL). Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 for a piece of equipment, software, hardware, paraphenalia, whatever, that was at least 15 years old? I want to say 20+, but let's make it easy. And not for work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one qualify. oi ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link For just $24.99/mo., Vonage offers unlimited local and long- distance calling. Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 7 20:04:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:04:33 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 17:37:21 -0800. <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061108013721.70079.qmail at web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 for a > piece of equipment, software, hardware, paraphenalia, > whatever, that was at least 15 years old? I want to > say 20+, but let's make it easy. And not for > work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one > qualify. oi Guilty as charged, Sir! And by definition, that takes me out of the category of the lowly user :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ray at arachelian.com Tue Nov 7 20:28:21 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 21:28:21 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455140C5.1030909@arachelian.com> Chris M wrote: > > Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 for a > piece of equipment, software, hardware, paraphenalia, > whatever, that was at least 15 years old? I want to > say 20+, but let's make it easy. And not for > work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one > qualify. oi > > Not recently, but did so early and often, like a Chicago voter. :-D Biggest thing I bought expense wise was a Xerox Star for about $3K. Wife still brings it up whenever I complain she wasted money on yet another pair of brand new shoes. (She complains that they're not comfy, I ask her why did she buy uncomfortable shoes, and off we go repeat the Star discussion.) :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 7 20:27:12 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:27:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <455001B0.3010907@jbrain.com> References: <454F63A5.9000003@yahoo.co.uk> <20061106222324.DCA5EBA41B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200611070159.kA71x6Yl028677@mail.itm-inst.com> <455001B0.3010907@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20061106202739.Y89163@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Nov 2006, Jim Brain wrote: > Not to play down COBOL.net, but IBM has had Enterprise COBOL for some > time, which is OO COBOL. IIRC, Ryan McFarland was recently pushing an OO COBOL. Wil Price was doing some training sessions for them after he retired. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 20:29:26 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:29:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061108022926.45215.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Guilty as charged, Sir! And by definition, that > takes me out of the > category of the lowly user :-). A full confession is in order. Only then can you receive absolution (but to be honest I'm not really sure what absolution is LOL. No offence :)...my son :) Me, I payed nearly $250 w/shipping for a Televideo Personal Mini PM/16T (I think I got that right). And I've hardly touched it in probably 1 1/2 years... Needs an OEM version of Netware 1.0 (I believe) a.k.a Infoshare. The hard drive may be operational, though I'm not counting on it. But the floppies are definately badd :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 7 21:19:23 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:19:23 -0500 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45514CBB.6080408@hawkmountain.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> from some poor twisted up soul at the opposite end of >> the globe: >> >> >>> Hi, Can u please tell me how I can make images of >>> the Xenix disks? Because I >>> can't read them with DOS since they have a different >>> format. I've tried >>> Winimage and ImageDisk but they didn't work. >>> > > I made images of the Xenix disks I have for my Altos > with ImageDisk and it worked for me. > Oohhh.. which Altos would this be ? I'm looking for Xenix for my Altos 886. > I don't recall if Xenix has single density tracks, however > it it does, some PC's physically can't read them - I've > also seen some formats which are marginal on some PC's, > slowing the drive slightly can help. Finally, it could be > settings - what is the format of the disk and what type of > drive is he using, and what ImageDisk settings are in > effect. > > As I understand it Altos Xenix (for the 886) at least was quad density disks. 80 tracks, double density. Should be able to image them using a 1.2M 5.25" PC floppy as long as software can understand the format (I'd think it should do it anyway). -- Curt > Unfortunately diskette formats vary widely, and it's not > always an exact science to get a PC to read them ... > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 7 21:19:51 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:19:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <45506E24.2771.9D39F2@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov 7, 6 11:29:40 am" Message-ID: <200611080319.kA83Jpva154644@floodgap.com> > > I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It seems to > > be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and markets that they > > abandon those who put them in business in the first place. > > What I don't understand is what keeps RS in business. It can't be > mobile phones or Dish TV. Certainly not batteries (I think I still > have an RS battery club card). A lot of what they sell in the way of > cable, etc. can be puchased at Wal Mart and Home Depot. But not necessarily components (or at least not conveniently). There's no Fry's here for about 50-75 miles in any direction, so I'm stuck with the local RS for getting a part. They still have them, in drawers, but they're there. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time wounds all heels. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------------------- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 21:50:25 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: quads and imagedisk Message-ID: <20061108035025.16184.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> no problemo. At least the Tandy 2000 variety. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 7 22:01:22 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:01:22 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611072211.kA7MBjwO070400@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002101c702ea$8f53dff0$6601a8c0@barry> Re: "Indeed, a series of DACs would be needed to convert the T2K TTL to analog for modern monitors but it doesn't solve the scanning frequency." The level issue is easily solved with just a couple of resistors. The real problem is the scan rates. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 22:27:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:27:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines Message-ID: <20061108042716.41211.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> right...so whos in charge of that dept? --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Re: "Indeed, a series of DACs would be needed to convert the T2K TTL to > analog for modern monitors but it doesn't solve the scanning frequency." > > The level issue is easily solved with just a couple of resistors. > > The real problem is the scan rates. > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 7 23:18:37 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:18:37 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455168AD.2050209@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > You're not a user. You're a geek. You don't count! ;-) Umm... Just in HEX do they count! Nerds are binary! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 7 23:46:54 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 00:46:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061108013251.33491.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061108013251.33491.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200611080554.AAA23446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Not so much so that he bid on Chuck's auction. I don't bid on auctions at all; on the few occasions when I've had anything to do with auctions, someone else has dealt with the auction interfacing. (The reasons I don't ebay are legion; I can go through them if someone really cares, but since I don't expect any significant number of people to care, I'd rather do that off-list if at all. Some of them apply to other auction "sites" as well.) > But then again he's probably already got a few stashed away ;) I might be able to say, if someone would tell me what's under discussion. Based on the subject, I'd guess Lisas, in which case no, I don't think I've ever even used one, much less owned one. > Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to $300 a year on your > phone bill. > Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ No thanks. I am not willing to make my phone service dependent on house mains power, much less my netlink too. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 00:06:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:06:16 -0800 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <200611080554.AAA23446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20061108013251.33491.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com>, <200611080554.AAA23446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45510358.22049.2E40E41@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 0:46, der Mouse wrote: > I might be able to say, if someone would tell me what's under > discussion. Based on the subject, I'd guess Lisas, in which case no, I > don't think I've ever even used one, much less owned one. The auction in question is for a Micro Solutions Compaticard IV. Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 8 01:10:37 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:10:37 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> References: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <1162969837.2911.66.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 06:46 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I don't know why there should be any stigma associated with having > worked on the Lisa project. The guys that built it had a huge project > on their hands and were able to do some amazing things on the shoulders > of what Xerox did. . . . I would suggest that the reason people would feel there is a stigma attached to having worked on the Lisa project is that it stood a little to firmly on the shoulders of Xerox. In point of fact, Steve Jobs sent around a memo telling people to simply copy as much of the Xerox Star interface as they possibly could. I know that would make ME nervous about discussing it... It's too bad, in a way. The effort put into the Lisa was gargantuan, and directed very well. On its own, it was a great product. It was just the user interface which was appropriated without permission. Xerox actually sued Apple over it, but filed too late, and the case was dismissed. The programming for the Lisa was all original, and well-done, especially for the time. It is a shame that the "look and feel" issue now clouds such a great effort. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 8 01:31:27 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:31:27 -0500 Subject: Correction to a looooooong ago post! Message-ID: <000101c70307$e713d700$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Way back in July 1999, someone wrote thus: >>> Byte Magazine first used the term "laptop" in reference to a production computer, after viewing the Epson HX-20 at a trade show in November 1981. <<< The original post is here: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-July/130419.html .... but it's not true! Recently I looked through all the Byte issues from that time period and found the reference in question, which was in the Feb. 1982 issue. In the issue's main editorial, on page 14, Chris Morgan referred to "...an intriguing prototype of the Epson HX-20 personal computer... The beginning of a new trend to what I call 'briefcase' computers: battery-operated machines that combine portability with powerful computer features. It's the sort of design that will appeal to people on the move." Byte's earliest use of "laptop" that I could find wasn't until the Jan. 1984 issue, in an article called "Portables--1984 and Beyond" by Dave Winer. I contacted Dave and he said he heard the term from Ester Dyson, but Ester said she doesn't recall saying it. She did say that "luggable" was her term, referring to the suitcase-sized computers. Byte did write about "lap" computers a couple of times in 1983, but not "laptops" per se. I'm bringing this up now because I have seen a few recent web references which cite the 1999 post as fact. Can anyone show me (not just say they remember) a pre-Jan. 1984 reference to the word "laptop" in the context of portable computers? I searched on Lexis-Nexus but the results were flawed. Apparently someone tagged all the pre-1984 references to "mobile" and "portable" computers with the word "laptop" which may be logical for most searchers but doesn't help me at all. - Evan From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 8 01:47:42 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:47:42 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <455168AD.2050209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <455168AD.2050209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1162972062.2911.69.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 22:18 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > > > You're not a user. You're a geek. You don't count! ;-) > > Umm... Just in HEX do they count! Nerds are binary! Speaking of which... People used to be amazed that I could count in hex on my fingers. Remember that? 0... 1... 2 (pardon me, no offense intended)... 3... 4... 5, and so on. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 8 01:54:26 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:54:26 -0500 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454BF83D.8070206@mdrconsult.com> <20061104121321.65802BA41A2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <454CD9CD.6020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <000c01c70049$0a17e820$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <1162972466.2911.73.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-11-04 at 14:40 -0500, jwhitton wrote: > I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It seems to > be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and markets that they > abandon those who put them in business in the first place. I've started > haunting hamfests and buying almost any dip package logic I run across. If I > needed ANY ordinary 74xx piece, there is no longer any place that it could > be purchased where I live. *Maybe* as an outrageously priced ECG part from > the one or two remaining repair shops..., but that's it. Sad...., and it > bodes ill for the sort of Science Fair / Boy Scout level projects that kids > might want to do..., oh, wait, I forgot, they've got video games and the > Internet.. Hey, it's worse than that. I recall seeing, about a year ago, an ad for an electronics project SIMULATOR in Windows software. You build the project, and it pretends to run it, and does what real components would do, producing a signal on screen, and as sound, if appropriate. *SIGH* Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 8 02:54:11 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:54:11 +0000 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/11/06 01:37, "Chris M" wrote: > Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 for a > piece of equipment, software, hardware, paraphenalia, > whatever, that was at least 15 years old? I want to > say 20+, but let's make it easy. And not for > work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one > qualify. oi *raises hand* I paid a bit more than I was comfortable with for an Acorn BBC Master Turbo, but it WAS a machine owned by the BBC and used for the creation of titles and suchlike for the famed BBC Domesday Project in 1985 and therefore one of less than 20 produced in that format. Sadly I haven't found anyone yet who can remember what software it used to run its genlock.... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 8 03:19:05 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:19:05 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yesterday evening I had a look at my sick 11/44. The notes I had kept said that the VT100 displays "?CP didn't start". I already knew that this is the typical bus hang condition, so I opened the BA11 box. I was surprised to see the FP11 board (I did not know I had that one), but I also saw that the last slot of the CPU backplane has a G727 ... I remember that in that quad slot had been the TU80 controller, sure an NPR device. So, I pulled the G727 and inserted a G7273, and pushed all other boards firmly into place. A few boards actually moved a little (say, 1 mm). Powering up ... the 11/44 shows the ">>>" prompt and is responsive, but I was too lazy to unlock the heads of the RA81 and tension the motor/spindle belt. The RA81 is the boot device for the 11/44. The system has an RL02 so I tried >>>B DL0: but then the 11/44 shows on the VT100 "no such PROM" (IIRC, or something close like this). OK, I was glad not to see "?CP didn't start" anymore, and I turned off the machine. Half an hour later I had thought of entering the boot code for the RL02, so I turned the 11/44 back on. However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. It does not matter if the switch is in the HALT or CONT position at power up. The VT100 only displays: (Console V3.40C) (Program) and nothing more, no ">>>" prompt anymore! Also, the FAULT lamp on the RL02 drive stays ON. In the normal behaviour, the FAULT lamp is OFF, and if you toggle the switch to the "BOOT" position, the FAULT lamp will flash ON briefly. The TK50 (also connected to the 11/44) flashes the red push button lamp and after a few seconds the red lamp goes OFF and the green LED goes ON. Now, in its faulty state the TK50 still behaves the same when I push the switch to the BOOT position, but the RL02 drive keeps the FAULT light ON. As the FAULT lamp stays ON of the RL02, I am *guessing* that the 11/44 does not issue a "reset", keeping the CPU hung, and the RL11 controller ...? Where do I start? What are the obvious things in this machine? Don't read this line Tony. I have 2 spare set 11/44 CPUs. thanks for any hints! - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 8 03:34:12 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:34:12 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Sorry, one follow-up on my own message. I forgot to mention that I searched the classiccmp archive, but was not successful. I remember a thread about a voltage comparator issue on the CIM (M7090), but could not find it. Perhaps that was on usenet ... I must take a look at the M7090 electrical diagram! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 8 03:54:16 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:54:16 +0000 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061107142028.050d7e40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4551A948.3040103@dunnington.plus.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: >> 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... do > they make 4-way switches? You mean a two-way switch (single pole, double throw), and yes there is a way to have three or more, if you use DPDT switches or a crossover switch in the middle. Over here, the major manufacturers make "crossover" or "changeover" light switches for exactly this purpose: Conventional use of two two-way (SPDT) switches: o-------------o LIVE --------o--- ---o----------- BULB ------ NEUTRAL o-------------o If one switch is "up" and the other is "down", the light is off If both switches are "up", the light is on If both switches are "down", the light is on Actually it's usually wired with one switch the other way up, so the light is on if one is "up" and the other "down": o---. .------o LIVE --------o--- \/ ---o----------- BULB ------ NEUTRAL o____/\o______o Using three (or more) switches: o----------o|o----------o LIVE --------o--- --- ---o----- BULB ---- NEUTRAL o----------o|o----------o ^^^^^^ crossover switch connects upper left to upper right (and LL to LR) or lower left to upper right (and UL to LR) If one end switch is "up", and the other is "down", the crossover switch in the middle can switch current from the upper leg to the lower, and turn the light on. Another layout with a DPDT: o--------------.------ o----------o--- | LIVE --------o--- : o--------.------------ o------+ : | | | : o--------+ | +---o--- | o--------------+ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ a DPDT switch with wiring arranged to switch current from upper leg to lower leg ('o's are contacts, '.'s are connections, ':'s represent the mechanical linkage between the poles) You can extend this ad infinitum with additional crossover or DPDT switches. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Nov 8 05:55:30 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 06:55:30 -0500 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <45514CBB.6080408@hawkmountain.net> References: <200611070331.kA73VOK9018662@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200611081100.kA8B0GEH005230@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I made images of the Xenix disks I have for my Altos > > with ImageDisk and it worked for me. > Oohhh.. which Altos would this be ? I'm looking for Xenix > for my Altos 886. It's a 586 - and unfortunately I don't have a full set of install media - just a couple of "homemade" disks that I got with the machine, one of which boots (IIRC). > As I understand it Altos Xenix (for the 886) at least was quad > density disks. 80 tracks, double density. Should be able to > image them using a 1.2M 5.25" PC floppy as long as software > can understand the format (I'd think it should do it anyway). ImageDisk has no problem reading/writing 80 track DD on 1.2M drives. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ray at arachelian.com Wed Nov 8 06:18:35 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 07:18:35 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <1162969837.2911.66.camel@linux.site> References: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> <1162969837.2911.66.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4551CB1B.5060405@arachelian.com> Warren Wolfe wrote: > > It's too bad, in a way. The effort put into the Lisa was > gargantuan, and directed very well. On its own, it was a great product. > It was just the user interface which was appropriated without > permission. I'm not sure that the above is correct. All the historical sources point to the exact opposite. Steve Jobs gave Xerox a ton of Apple stock to "sort of open the kimono at Xerox PARC." It was allowed and well known, and if you read the stories on folklore.org and compare a Star or an Alto to a Lisa you'll find there are vast differences in the UI. It simply wasn't just copied, much less without permission. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 8 08:06:13 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> At 01:19 PM 11/7/2006, der Mouse wrote: >There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work >perfectly well on hardware that's available for $0 because the latest >bloatware no longer runs tolerably on it. I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. Now that the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in inflation-adjusted dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 03:24:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:24:10 -0600 Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4551A23A.7030207@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Re: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? hmm, I might if I could be bothered to wait the few minutes it takes for a web browser to load on this old beastie :-) From the mention of ebay in the URL I'm guessing that it's some way-overpriced item that can be purchased *far* cheaper elsewhere, quite possibly in superior form (faster, more reliable, more flexible etc.). At least, that's the usual situation whenever ebay and puzzlement occur in the same message :-) "It doesn't have to make sense - people will still buy it" should be ebay's marketing slogan... From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 08:27:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:27:24 -0500 Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4551E94C.2070405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really has me mystified: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 Prices on old new-in-box hardware always tends to get a little wonky. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 03:30:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:30:25 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4551A3B1.4050706@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article , > Al Kossow writes: > >> I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the reasons I'm at the >> Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are built today. > > I'll say its a good thing, otherwise a PC with an operating system > would still cost $10K, instead of $300. Of course if every PC cost 10k then buyers would make darn sure they learned how to use it properly, rather than the current situation of buying one and sticking it on the 'net with no kind of firewall or virus protection. Giving complex tools to the masses when they expect to be able to just jump right in and use them with no training whatsoever seems like a pretty insane plan. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 03:51:53 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:51:53 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4551A8B9.8000006@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >>> I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the reasons I'm >>> at the Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are >>> built today. >> I'll say its a good thing, otherwise a PC with an operating system >> would still cost $10K, instead of $300. > > There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work > perfectly well on hardware that's available for $0 because the latest > bloatware no logner runs tolerably on it. To be honest, I think Richard's comment about OSS is pretty fair in general - there's a *huge* amount of bloat in a lot of OSS. It's nowhere near as bad as the Windows world, but it's getting worse all the time. I'm tempted to say that things went bad 2 or 3 years ago when Linux started really being talked about in the media. Before then, people bought into the UNIX philosophy of small apps doing one job only (but doing it well) - then some kind of change happened and we got dragged down the Windows route of monolithic monsters which were all about features and integration rather than stability and performance. Prior to that, things were ticking along pretty nicely. Actually, I don't really mind features so much - but it's *my* system, so *I* should be the one who gets to choose which ones are installed - it doesn't matter so much if it's lots of separate programs or not, so long as it's 'tunable'. Maybe what's lacking is that there's no common standard for communication between 'modules' (whether they be applications, utilities, or 'features') such that users can pick and choose what they want (which sounds scarily like the distributed systems of old!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 04:30:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 04:30:14 -0600 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> That's the problem with making a claim to be the "first". Many >> concepts are evolutionary instead of revolutionary. > > Nearly all, I think. Then the waters get muddy with lies, half-truths, > politically charged claims, ignorance, and so forth. I have this discussion with people on a pretty regular basis. It seems like the little companies are always the ones with the real bright ideas and the innovation - then a big company comes along and either steals or buys whatever it is that the small company has, and presents it to the world through lots of marketing as though it were all their own work. Then they get rich off it, and the whole cycle repeats. It's certainly one of the things I want to get across at the museum. Not trying to tell the public who was first with any one thing - because as you say that's a complete minefield - but to tell the story of some of the little guys who really did all the hard work. It's scary how many people there are who think that Microsoft invented the GUI and Dell invented the computer... >> I suppose Western Union might have originated the first email system >> using teletypes, no? It's a networked system and messages are stored >> in hardcopy form with routing information, so the receiving end can >> run unattended. I submit that the presence or absence of a >> "computer" in the middle of all of this is a minor quibble. > > Yes, the WU networks were surprisingly advanced for a bunch of > switches and relays. I wonder if there were any electrically-operated semaphore stations around which pre-date wired telegraphy? Most countries had networks of optical semaphores which could of course route a message (the original idea seems to have cropped up in the 1600's) - but to my knowledge they were all manual and only operable in daylight, despite electricity being available long before the last ones closed (mid 1800's I think). However it seems strange if the transition was made straight to wired telegraphy with no intermediate system using electric light. Of course it also depends on whether 'electro-mechanical mail' rather than 'electronic mail' qualifies :-) > It is a good thing the Greenkeys people have an > interest in this stuff, as I have found a lot of computer people > conveniently ignore* the networks that existed before ARPAnet. AUTODIN > anyone? It's a common thing. Along with a tendency to forget who really invented stuff, there's also a tendency to forget that electronic systems often grew out of electro-mechanical ones rather than being 'new ideas', and in turn electro-mechanical systems grew out of pure mechanical systems - and I suppose they in turn were often mechanical replacements for purely physical processes. It's an interesting progression, which raise the question of whether there's anything after the electronic age and what it might be. As you say though, very few ideas are 'new' - although many of them make use of new technologies. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 04:36:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 04:36:41 -0600 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4551B339.2010901@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <45506E24.2771.9D39F2 at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> [...] A lot of what they sell in the way of >> cable, etc. can be puchased at Wal Mart and Home Depot. > > It depends on how pedestrian your cabling needs are. I needed to buy > some RS-232 adapter dongles recently (gender benders and the like) and > Rat Trap was the only place that had anything like that. I don't think Wal-mart acknowledge that RS232 exists, to be honest. I went in the other day to see how much they charged for a USB-serial adapter and they didn't appear to stock them (but they did have USB-parallel adapters, which suggests they know that USB adapter gadgets do exist) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 8 09:44:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:44:00 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> Henk wrote... > "?CP didn't start". I already knew that this is the > typical bus hang condition, Yup it is, seems you fixed it with the G7273 > However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light > stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. Disclaimer... I'm new to these machines, the below is a newbies guesses :) Perhaps your M7098 (UBI) module is set to autoboot from one of the proms upon powerup, and that's why it comes up in run mode. This is a personal preference thing, but I never have a machine autoboot to anything other than the console emulator. I then always select the boot device by hand. Many people instead set the switches on the UBI to attempt a boot from a particular device upon powerup. This may be why you power on in run mode. I would suggest that you look at the 10 position dip switch on the UBI and set 1,2, and 7 on and all the rest off. Then power up and see if you dont get just the console prompt. > and nothing more, no ">>>" prompt anymore! > > Also, the FAULT lamp on the RL02 drive stays ON. If I was to make a newbie guess... you have a problem with your RL02 subsystem (drive, cable, or controller) and your UBI is perhaps set to autoboot the DL prom. So when you power it on it attempts to boot the RL02 and hangs because of another problem. Setting the switches as above would identify this possibility. If it then comes up to the CONSOLE prompt correctly, you can at least know it's time to zero in on the RL02 subsystem. Jay From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 8 09:57:44 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 07:57:44 -0800 Subject: VCF 9.0 Message-ID: <4551FE78.E95A88B2@rain.org> I haven't seen anything about VCF yet, so thought I would put down a few comments. It was a fun time as usual at VCF, and I met a lot of interesting people there. I got a chance to put some faces with names, and that is always a lot of fun. The majority of my time was spent taking care of my vendor booth, and so I didn't take a lot of time to spend in other areas. One of the neat additions was the kit building workshops. Several people got their Apple I replica kits signed by Woz. It seemed like the number of vendors and exhibitors were down, but the number of people attending were up. One of the exhibits I liked was the Apple Lisa. The exhibitor, who goes by Lisa :), was very knowledgeable and I learned a number of things from her regarding collecting Lisas. For those that don't know me, I do have a perverted sense of humor. I had brought a Chisholm computer that I think might be a prototype of the first IBM battery operated portable (later licensed to Olivetti) to see if anyone knew anything about it. Evan will hopefully be doing an interview with the company president, and I mainly brought it for him to see. But after watching people ignore it, I put a $2000 price tag on it ... and that got it a little more attention :). But people still didn't ask about it though they took more notice of it. And no, I don't think it is worth anywhere near that much money. I was talking to Sellam, and it would have been a good place to at least mention the Vintage Market Place for selling/trading/buying/etc. vintage computer stuff. And I also think this and Eric's listservers should also have been mentioned. If we are to help build this hobby, it might be a good idea to let people know where to get more information :). From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 8 09:58:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:58:09 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:29:26 -0800. <20061108022926.45215.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061108022926.45215.qmail at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > --- Richard wrote: > > > Guilty as charged, Sir! And by definition, that > > takes me out of the > > category of the lowly user :-). > > A full confession is in order. Um, let's see... $350 for a Beehive terminal. $1200 for a lot of Tektronix terminals :-) $500 for a PDP-11/03 w/peripherals I think those are the only ones where I broke the $200 barrier. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 04:57:22 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 04:57:22 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4551B812.3000603@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Nov 2006 at 3:03, Jules Richardson wrote: > Step back and think about it for awhile--put yourself back 20 years > to 1986 and consider what you could have done with a gig of disk > space and 32 megs of RAM. Think about where such resources would put > you 30 years ago... > > So, bloat is everywhere. Probably in 10 years, if I live that long, > I'll be mumbling the same thing about OSes that require 1TB of disk > and 32GB of RAM. :) But there's a different between bloat and features that a particular user *needs*, though. I don't mind vendors piling in features so much - providing that I get to choose which ones I want installed on *my* system. It's only bloat when it's unwanted. Sadly UNIX is going the way of Windows - you get given what comes with an app, and never mind if you never use 90% of the functionality. OK, that's an unfair percentage - but I bet that 30% of my most-used apps consist of junk code which I don't actually need. And that's just the visual cruft that I know about; I bet there's a lot more under the covers because my apps either contain functionality also provided by some of the libraries which they reference, or they require a library which provides extra services not needed by my system. Then of course there's all the zillion utilities which I never need - except that they're there because I have zero idea which ones get used behind the scenes and there's no tracking of what gets called when, so I don't know which ones I can safely remove. So what, broadly speaking 50% or so of stuff installed on my machine is probably unwanted or unnecessary, but I'm pretty much stuck with it. That's the Linux picture too - it must be worse for the Windows guys. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 8 10:01:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:01:24 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:30:25 -0600. <4551A3B1.4050706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4551A3B1.4050706 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Of course if every PC cost 10k then buyers would make darn sure they learned > how to use it properly, rather than the current situation of buying one and > sticking it on the 'net with no kind of firewall or virus protection. Based on my experiences with users in 1979, I would disagree. Cost and intelligence have no correlation at all. I know plenty of stupid people with lots of money to spend. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 05:40:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 05:40:04 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> Message-ID: <4551C214.3090804@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > At 01:19 PM 11/7/2006, der Mouse wrote: >> There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work >> perfectly well on hardware that's available for $0 because the latest >> bloatware no longer runs tolerably on it. > > I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the > old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. I suspect we wised up to the fact that, at least in the PC world, every upgrade has a shelf life of about six months before it's considered obsolete. Some of us have better things to spend our money on (like trips to the dumpster and back ;) cheers J. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 8 11:02:52 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:02:52 -0500 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <000801c6ff8f$876e0b20$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <000801c6ff8f$876e0b20$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: You see no merit in learning how to do something? *THAT* is laughable. -Dave On Nov 3, 2006, at 4:32 PM, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I see no merit in reinventing the wheel in this case. If you're > really that > cheap, find one on ebay for less. This whole debate is laughable. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M >> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:16 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: New monitors on old machines >> >> --- Julian Wolfe wrote: >> >>> No really, just buy a $100 scanconverter. It's not worth >> the hassle. >>> What's your time worth? >> >> There is the merit of learning how to do something. >> No, I for one can't blow a c-note everyday on whatever I feel >> like either. >> >>>> Well, I wonder what the chances are that an LCD >>> monitor would >>>> work with CGA inputs (dropped down to the proper >>> voltage >>>> levels). The question gets back to the sync >>> issue. But it >>>> would not surprise me if some of them might not >>> actually have >>>> been designed to accept NTSC TV scan rates. >> >> If some of these things had a seperate "video" input, >> I can see them accepting 15.75khz. But if we're >> talking about the 15 pin connection, what would be the >> reason for constructing the thing to take it there? >> And it occurred to me, some of these modern >> multisyncs, though probably a long shot, might wind up >> being able to accept 26.4khz. There's nothing saying >> they'd automatically crap the bed as soon as it sees >> 31.499999999khz. But like I said, if any did, they'd >> probably be few and far between. And we are talking >> about a single that isn't too far off. I'm not privy >> to the way a thing "decides" if a signal is kosher or >> not (and of course it's ability to work with certain >> frequencies has to do with the tolerance of the >> individual components), but perhaps they could be >> tweaked to accept something a tad lower, but keep in >> mind the previous parenthetical info. Push it too hard >> and you might see a few sparks. >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> ______________________ >> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates >> (http://voice.yahoo.com) >> >> > > -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 11:18:25 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 12:18:25 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45521161.8040309@yahoo.com> A friend gave me a Magitronic XT RAM Card. It's an 8-bit ISA Full length card with 8 sets of 9 sockets. It's totally unpopulated. It has 8 position DIP Switch. Currently all but #5 are off. It has two Magitronic Stickers. One has the number 606 and the other 0687 I'm assuming this board populates with 4116 chips for a total of 128k or 4164 chips for a total of 512k I have an original XT board with 256k on it and I want to take it up to 640k total. I'm hoping I can put 4 sets of 4116 and 4 sets of 4164 on here for 384k. So, any help with a copy of the manual or link to the same would be much appreciated. I have an Oak 8 Bit VGA card in the XT that not only handles VGA but also does EGA/CGA/MGA/MDA. I have a couple of these cards, and they are like gold to me. I'm looking out for a high density disk controller for an XT so I can put one 1.44mb drive on it for data transfer. But, it will be fun to run an XT again... Al Phila, PA P.S.: Still looking for an LNW-80 Model I or Model II CPU, and a power supply for a Laser 512 XT (like the Laser 128 Apple II Clone). From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 11:21:31 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 04:21:31 +1100 Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> <4551E94C.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05d401c7035a$57d957b0$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:27 AM Subject: Re: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really has me mystified: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 > > Prices on old new-in-box hardware always tends to get a little wonky. > > Peace... Sridhar I've been trawling eBay lately for XT cards - some of the prices are ridiculous from the shop sellers - CGA cards for &US175 for example.... when you can pick up a used 5150 for $10 in other auctions . Never should have thrown out the boxes of old cards - I'd be rich! cheeers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Commodore 128 forums & more! // From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 11:28:21 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 12:28:21 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with bad keyboards. These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're gone... that's it! Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a company that could make them up? I have some samples and a schematic of the matrix so this shouldn't be impossible. We also have a cache of spare parts (Z-80's, ULA's, RAM chips, etc...) for these units. Also, we have a large collection of vintage New Old Stock TTL parts. We are inventorying what we have now, and will post a website with part numbers and quantities available. They've been well stored, and seem to be in great shape. We also found a small stock of Relays, and other parts. Those will be listed on the site as well. It's fun playing with a ZX-81 again. I dug out my TS-1000 and found it didn't work anymore. When we opened it, we found that the Z80 had a bent pin. And over the years it stopped making contact with the contact in the socket due to movement of the parts and corrosion. Once we bent the pin straight and reinserted the Z80, it came up like a champ! And... We also got my Coco III fixed. It came up with a pink screen. We desoldered the 68B09 and put a socket in it's place. I stole a 6809E from a Coco 2 and popped it in. Voila! It now works! Computers in the old days were a lot more fun! Al Phila, PA From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 8 13:10:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:10:29 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on Message-ID: <004a01c70369$91b276b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Henk wrote... > "?CP didn't start". I already knew that this is the > typical bus hang condition, Yup it is, seems you fixed it with the G7273 > However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light > stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. Disclaimer... I'm new to these machines, the below is a newbies guesses :) Perhaps your M7098 (UBI) module is set to autoboot from one of the proms upon powerup, and that's why it comes up in run mode. This is a personal preference thing, but I never have a machine autoboot to anything other than the console emulator. I then always select the boot device by hand. Many people instead set the switches on the UBI to attempt a boot from a particular device upon powerup. This may be why you power on in run mode. I would suggest that you look at the 10 position dip switch on the UBI and set 1,2, and 7 on and all the rest off. Then power up and see if you dont get just the console prompt. > and nothing more, no ">>>" prompt anymore! > > Also, the FAULT lamp on the RL02 drive stays ON. If I was to make a newbie guess... you have a problem with your RL02 subsystem (drive, cable, or controller) and your UBI is perhaps set to autoboot the DL prom. So when you power it on it attempts to boot the RL02 and hangs because of another problem. Setting the switches as above would identify this possibility. If it then comes up to the CONSOLE prompt correctly, you can at least know it's time to zero in on the RL02 subsystem. Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 8 13:16:49 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 11:16:49 -0800 Subject: KENBAK-1 documentation Message-ID: A box surfaced at CHM yesterday with documentation on some mid-80s donations. They would often include small items in the folder for the artifact, and I was plesantly surprised that all of the documentation that came from John Blankenbaker's KENBAK-1 donation was there. I've scanned the brochure, hardware and programming manuals and still need to do the lab manual. All up on bitsavers.org/pdf/kenbak. Erik, if you happen to have the parts list in the docs you have, that would be useful, since the schematics don't give component values for the passive components. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 8 13:42:19 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 19:42:19 +0000 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <4551A3B1.4050706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/11/06 09:30, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Of course if every PC cost 10k then buyers would make darn sure they learned > how to use it properly, rather than the current situation of buying one and > sticking it on the 'net with no kind of firewall or virus protection. Then I'd only have half a job to do :) Lets face it, people's ignorance keeps a lot of us employed as specialists! > Giving complex tools to the masses when they expect to be able to just jump > right in and use them with no training whatsoever seems like a pretty insane > plan. Thanks billg! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 8 13:54:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> Message-ID: <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, John Foust wrote: > I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the > old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. Now that > the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in inflation-adjusted > dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. > Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. example: I want to type a grocery list start a RS M100, Coco, M1, Apple][, Osborn, N*, and a "modern" machine. I can be finished typing, and printing before the "modern" machine has finished booting. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 14:04:34 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:04:34 +1300 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <200611071715.kA7HFg4h026979@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <454FD3F0.9B03A123@rain.org> <200611071715.kA7HFg4h026979@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 11/8/06, Brad Parker wrote: > > Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> At that company, I learned several times over why Pascal is not my > >> favorite language. > >> > >> -ethan > > > >Okay, not ever having learned or used Pascal, what are (were?) some of the > >limitations of Pascal for production environments? > > We shipped production systems using Pascal (Oregon) on an 11/23 with > TSX. It worked fine. Multiuser database (of sorts) and all. Funny you should mention that environment - the example I had in mind was on an 11/73 under TSX... > We could go on and on about Pascal but there's little point (IMHO). It > didn't lend itself to system programming as much as other languages. I can entirely agree with that. The specific situation I had in mind, to answer Marvin, was working on an ultrasonic component inspection system written by someone else in Pascal. My task was to go in and permit single or double resolution scans compared to the original arrangement. The system worked as designed, including a display task under TSX to read scan data. The sticking point was not double-density data collection; that was easy. It was the display task. Fundamentally, it came down to architecture limitations crossed with language limitations. The original task opened a file of 768 nybbles per record (one scan line). The new task needed to open *either* a file of 768 nybbles or 1536 nybbles per line. Because I/O on Pascal is a) built-in and b) record oriented, the compiler tried to allocate a record buffer for each type of file. If I'd been writing in C or assembler, I could have allocated one 1536 nybble buffer and either used half of it or all of it. There was no way to tell Pascal that I knew I'd never open both types of files at once and to only worry about buffering I/O for one type of file or the other. If I'd been able to throw out Pascal's I/O and roll my own in assembler, I would have. I was trapped. (the solution, if you are curious, was to create two display tasks, one single-density only, the other double-density. The dispatch task chose which one to send a message to depending on the request from the user and the contents of the scan file). > But I'm not sure I'd elevate C much higher, except to say the BSD C > changed my life and made it easy to crank out production code on cheaper > machines which ran almost as well, though not quite as reliable. I, on the other hand, _would_ elevate C much higher than Pascal, if only because you can, among other things, adapt or even entirely replace the standard library (unlike Pascal which has reserved keywords for way too many things). C has been called a "glorified PDP-11 assember" - given that I learned assembler on the PDP-11 (and the 6502 and 1802 and the Z-80...) before I tried C, it all made sense very rapidly. I don't see that slam as a limitation. -ethan From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Nov 8 14:11:57 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 12:11:57 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45523A0D.7030504@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > Perhaps your M7098 (UBI) module is set to autoboot from one of the > proms upon powerup, and that's why it comes up in run mode. This is a > personal preference thing, but I never have a machine autoboot to > anything other than the console emulator. I then always select the > boot device by hand. Many people instead set the switches on the UBI > to attempt a boot from a particular device upon powerup. This may be > why you power on in run mode. I would suggest that you look at the 10 > position dip switch on the UBI and set 1,2, and 7 on and all the rest > off. Then power up and see if you dont get just the console prompt. > >> and nothing more, no ">>>" prompt anymore! >> >> Also, the FAULT lamp on the RL02 drive stays ON. > If I was to make a newbie guess... you have a problem with your RL02 > subsystem (drive, cable, or controller) and your UBI is perhaps set to > autoboot the DL prom. So when you power it on it attempts to boot the > RL02 and hangs because of another problem. Setting the switches as > above would identify this possibility. If it then comes up to the > CONSOLE prompt correctly, you can at least know it's time to zero in > on the RL02 subsystem. Even if you autoboot to run mode you should always be able to get back to the console prompt by typing ^P (assuming you front panel switch is not set to locked). After ^P you should get '>>>' and then be able to type 'H' to halt the CPU if it is still running, and then run some basic tests 'T/E'. If after typing ^P you still don't get >>> then something is amiss with your console module and/or console microprocessor. From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Wed Nov 8 14:20:45 2006 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles Fox) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:20:45 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061108202048.80321A3F@fep7.cogeco.net> At 05:30 AM 11/8/2006, you wrote: >I wonder if there were any electrically-operated semaphore stations >around which pre-date wired telegraphy? Most countries had networks >of optical semaphores which could of course route a message (the >original idea seems to have cropped up in the 1600's) - but to my >knowledge they were all manual and only operable in daylight, >despite electricity being available long before the last ones closed >(mid 1800's I think). However it seems strange if the transition was >made straight to wired telegraphy with no intermediate system using >electric light. > >cheers > >Jules Didn't the Indians use smoke signals? Also, I believe I have read that in the middle ages in Europe they used bonfires to signal. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From kth at srv.net Wed Nov 8 14:27:26 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:27:26 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45523DAE.6090606@srv.net> Jay West wrote: > Henk wrote... > >> "?CP didn't start". I already knew that this is the >> typical bus hang condition, > > Yup it is, seems you fixed it with the G7273 > >> However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light >> stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. > Wasn't there a discussion a long while ago about these same symptoms? iirc. The run light may stick on if the grant request line gets broken. This can be caused by missing/loose/bad cards, missing grant jumpers, etc. (this from memory, so I may be remembering it wrong) From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 8 14:33:04 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:33:04 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7BF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jay wrote... >Henk wrote... >> "?CP didn't start". I already knew that this is the >> typical bus hang condition, >Yup it is, seems you fixed it with the G7273 > >> However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light >> stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. > >Disclaimer... I'm new to these machines, the below is a newbies guesses :) > >Perhaps your M7098 (UBI) module is set to autoboot from one of the proms >upon powerup, and that's why it comes up in run mode. This is a personal >preference thing, but I never have a machine autoboot to anything other >than >the console emulator. I then always select the boot device by hand. >Many people instead set the switches on the UBI to attempt a boot from a >particular device upon powerup. This may be why you power on in run mode. >I would suggest that you look at the 10 position dip switch on the UBI and >set 1,2, and 7 on and all the rest off. Then power up and see if you dont >get just the console prompt. I read about that DIP switch on the UBI this afternoon! But the system was working and started to the Console prompt just a half hour before. I will flip the switches anyway, because I learned from Don that when they are "ON" it does not always mean that their resistance is real low! As I read through the 11/44 manual, I am updating my webpage too :) >> and nothing more, no ">>>" prompt anymore! >> >> Also, the FAULT lamp on the RL02 drive stays ON. > >If I was to make a newbie guess... you have a problem with your RL02 >subsystem (drive, cable, or controller) and your UBI is perhaps set >to boot the DL prom. So when you power it on it attempts to boot the >RL02 and hangs because of another problem. Setting the switches as >above would identify this possibility. If it then comes up to the >CONSOLE prompt correctly, you can at least know it's time to zero in >on the RL02 subsystem. > >Jay Well, my first thought was: "It was OK half an hour ago"... but then I remembered something. Maybe not such a dumb newbie, Jay! The last weeks I have been helping people that were looking for something. This morning I shipped an RL terminator, that I removed from the RL02 drive yesterday! I did that, because then I was certain it was a good one ... I plugged an other terminator on the RL02 drive; yes I did not forget that. But ... it could be a bad terminator. It's just resistors, but still...! I can't check that this evening. Have to get up to the attic, but everybody already went to bed. The RUN lamp lit on the 11/44 and the FAULT lamp on the RL02 may have no relation at all! Thanks, I wouldn't have thought of it! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From kth at srv.net Wed Nov 8 14:37:01 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:37:01 -0700 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <4551B339.2010901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4551B339.2010901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45523FED.5080306@srv.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I don't think Wal-mart acknowledge that RS232 exists, to be honest. I > went in the other day to see how much they charged for a USB-serial > adapter and they didn't appear to stock them (but they did have > USB-parallel adapters, which suggests they know that USB adapter > gadgets do exist) I've found them at Staples and OfficeMax, but even then they are hard to find. Anything dealing with serial ports is getting hard to find, including cables, genter changers, and null modems. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Nov 8 14:55:28 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:55:28 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <45521161.8040309@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c70378$38e29240$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> What's your XT got in it now? Most non-IBM boards you could populate to 640K anyway so there was no point in those cards. If it's got 41256 chips on it, pull them from the card and install them in the motherboard banks, and then set the switches properly on your XT motherboard and you should be OK. I have an IBM XT motherboard in my 5155, so I went ahead and did the 640K upgrade and put the chips in. It freed up a slot on my machine, so I installed an AST RAMpage/2 in it. It's now got 2625KB of usable RAM (Windows 3.0 loves it!) I've done a bunch of work collecting utilities that will correct certain issues with old hardware or enhance certain capabilities (like get rid of snow and speed up scrolling on CGA and EGA cards, and stabilize/speedup NEC v20 chips) Let me know if you need my help. Julian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Hartman > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:18 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > > A friend gave me a Magitronic XT RAM Card. > > It's an 8-bit ISA Full length card with 8 sets of 9 > sockets. It's totally unpopulated. > > It has 8 position DIP Switch. Currently all but #5 are off. > > It has two Magitronic Stickers. One has the number 606 and > the other 0687 > > I'm assuming this board populates with 4116 chips for a total > of 128k or > 4164 chips for a total of 512k > > I have an original XT board with 256k on it and I want to > take it up to 640k total. > > I'm hoping I can put 4 sets of 4116 and 4 sets of 4164 on > here for 384k. > > So, any help with a copy of the manual or link to the same > would be much appreciated. > > I have an Oak 8 Bit VGA card in the XT that not only handles > VGA but also does EGA/CGA/MGA/MDA. > > I have a couple of these cards, and they are like gold to me. > > I'm looking out for a high density disk controller for an XT > so I can put one 1.44mb drive on it for data transfer. > > But, it will be fun to run an XT again... > > Al > Phila, PA > > P.S.: Still looking for an LNW-80 Model I or Model II CPU, > and a power supply for a Laser 512 XT (like the Laser 128 > Apple II Clone). > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Nov 8 15:09:21 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:09:21 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >At 01:19 PM 11/7/2006, der Mouse wrote: > >There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work > >perfectly well on hardware that's available for $0 because the latest > >bloatware no longer runs tolerably on it. > >I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the >old days, speed was cool. Because back then, we could actually *use* the speed! > You wanted a faster machine. Now that >the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in inflation-adjusted >dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. Because it's *kewl.* ;-) >Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. Bzzzt. Wrong answer. TEXT on my Tandy 200 starts one heckuva lot faster at 2.4Mhz than OpenOffice on my 2.4 GHz. OK, now you're gonna start crying "Straw-man argument." a) I don't care ;-) ;-) and... b) Don't you mean "programs of roughly equal size will start more quickly on systems with a faster *hard drive* and more memory?" CPU speed means very little nowadays... Even then, I'd much rather have access to a stripped-down text-only 256K OS that can boot from the flash rom instantly instead of the rigamarole that exists currently. Why don't I shut up and write it? x86 assembly sucks. ;-) That translates back to the first sentence I wrote: Nowadays, you really can't *access* the speed of the CPU; too many other bottlenecks get in the way... and reducing those bottlenecks (low latency RAM, 15K RPM hard drives) *does* cost a ton of money... IMHO & all that jazz.... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 15:09:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:09:09 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <45521161.8040309@yahoo.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45521161.8040309@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4551D6F5.14089.61EAFF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 12:18, Al Hartman wrote: > A friend gave me a Magitronic XT RAM Card. A quick way to determine if the board's for 4116's or 4164's is to remember that 4116's are 3-supply chips, so pin 1 will connect to the -5 supply rail. Otherwise, I suspect the DIP switch merely sets the base address for the DRAM, probably on a 16K or 64K boundary. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out which. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 8 15:34:29 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:34:29 -0500 Subject: lisadraw References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <004801c7037d$ad78a9f0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:54 PM Subject: Re: lisadraw > On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, John Foust wrote: > > I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the > > old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. Now that > > the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in inflation-adjusted > > dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. > > Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. > > example: > I want to type a grocery list > start a RS M100, Coco, M1, Apple][, Osborn, N*, and a "modern" machine. > I can be finished typing, and printing before the "modern" machine has > finished booting. > And I would have grabbed my pencil and a pad of paper before you could figure out which surge strip powered which computer and printer. Do people really need a computer for a grocery list? I find looking through the fridge and cupboards with a notepad in hand to much faster. TZ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 15:35:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:35:32 +1300 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454CC1DE.22975.5B7F160C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/06, Tothwolf wrote: > The LED packs were also a lot of fun. Where else could you > pay $1.50-$2.00 for a pile of weird looking and one of a kind leds? :) Indeed. Those were probably my favorite of all the packs. Like many things, I still have a few 1970s LEDs lying around (only a few - most didn't survive my teenage "let's put a lot of power through these and see them smoke" phase ;-) -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 8 15:40:24 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:40:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061108133913.W84456@shell.lmi.net> > Giving complex tools to the masses when they expect to be able to just jump > right in and use them with no training whatsoever seems like a pretty insane > plan. The public considers it to be a defect if operation is more complicated than a toaster. remember what Strousstrup said about phones. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 8 15:47:02 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:47:02 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <004801c7037d$ad78a9f0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> <004801c7037d$ad78a9f0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200611081647.02233.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 November 2006 16:34, Teo Zenios wrote: > And I would have grabbed my pencil and a pad of paper before you > could figure out which surge strip powered which computer and > printer. Do people really need a computer for a grocery list? Yes. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 8 15:49:51 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:49:51 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45523DAE.6090606@srv.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Kevin wrote: >>> However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light >>> stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. > >Wasn't there a discussion a long while ago about these same symptoms? Yes, but that was about the 11/34, but it applies here too! But I remember something about voltage comparators on the CIM, M7090. >iirc. The run light may stick on if the grant request line gets broken. >This can be caused by missing/loose/bad cards, missing grant jumpers, etc. > >(this from memory, so I may be remembering it wrong) No, that's correct. Just to make sure, I just did 2 simple checks. 1) I removed the M9202 that connects the CPU backplane to the next one, and inserted a M9302 as terminator in the CPU, last slot position A-B. 2) I removed the M9302 (basically leaving things open. In a light-loaded system you can try that. Well, the 11/44 CPU backplane has not much space for peripherals ... the quad SPC slot has a G7273, so that's OK, and the hex slot has a Quadrasync E (wasn't that on the list last week?) I didn't know I had such a board! (and thus probably the doc too! I haven't looked at the 11/44 for over a year). Both checks are negative, that is, RUN stays ON, and moving the switch to CONT/HALT/BOOT in any possible order does not change this :( The VT100 shows only: (Console V3.40C) (Program) _ I tried the suggestion from Don with the M9302 in the last slot of the 11/44 backplane. To my surprise, when you hit ^P, the system prints a new "(Program)" line and the cursor (_) moves to the next line. So, now I am thinking ... a wrong/dead terminator on the RL02 drive, can it have such an effect that through the RL11 controller the bus hangs?! thnaks again, - Henk. - thanks, Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 15:58:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:58:43 -0800 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <20061108202048.80321A3F@fep7.cogeco.net> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>, <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk>, <20061108202048.80321A3F@fep7.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <4551E293.7110.64C1038@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 15:20, Charles Fox wrote: > Didn't the Indians use smoke signals? Also, I believe I > have read that in the middle ages in Europe they used bonfires to signal. We also can't ignore drum signaling. I suspect that signal fires, particularly among the seafaring peoples go back to prehistoric times. But then, to qualify as email, they'd have to be ELECTRIC signal fires, no? :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 16:02:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 14:02:52 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4551E38C.4409.64FDE32@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 10:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed. Those were probably my favorite of all the packs. Like many > things, I still have a few 1970s LEDs lying around (only a few - most > didn't survive my teenage "let's put a lot of power through these and > see them smoke" phase ;-) Does anyone remember when Montsanto offered a 2-LED sampler pack for about (IIRC) $2 and advertised it in Popular Electronics? When was that, the late 60's/early 70's? Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 8 16:17:37 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:17:37 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING><45523DAE.6090606@srv.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <001801c70383$b846df40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Henk wrote... > I tried the suggestion from Don with the M9302 in the last slot of the > 11/44 backplane. To my surprise, when you hit ^P, the system prints a > new "(Program)" line and the cursor (_) moves to the next line. > So, now I am thinking ... a wrong/dead terminator on the RL02 drive, > can it have such an effect that through the RL11 controller the bus > hangs?! IF you changed the dipswitches on the UBI board as I mentioned in my previous email, AND you get the same response as above (^P gives another (program) display)... then I bet your front panel board (slot 1AB) or your MFM board is toasty. Jay From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 8 16:36:52 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:36:52 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING><45523DAE.6090606@srv.net><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <001801c70383$b846df40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jay wrote: >>Henk wrote... >> I tried the suggestion from Don with the M9302 in the last slot of the >> 11/44 backplane. To my surprise, when you hit ^P, the system prints a >> new "(Program)" line and the cursor (_) moves to the next line. >> So, now I am thinking ... a wrong/dead terminator on the RL02 drive, >> can it have such an effect that through the RL11 controller the bus >> hangs?! > >IF you changed the dipswitches on the UBI board as I mentioned in my >previous email, AND you get the same response as above (^P gives another >(program) display)... then I bet your front panel board (slot 1AB) or your >MFM board is toasty. > >Jay Jep, I checked the switches, they are set just like you said: 1-2-7 ON, rest OFF :-). I toggled 1-2-7 to OFF an back ON again, but the problem is still here. To clarify, I get only the (Program) line, and then the cursor moves to the next line. I do *not* get the ">>>" console prompt. I haven't looked at the diagrams yet, but ASSuming the M7090 (slot 1AB) does not contain logic and getting the (Program) printed, that board is OK. Except that the voltage comparators might be off, and they keep the system locked? I have at least 4 CIM boards, so a simple check is possible. I also have 3 MFM boards, but I hate swapping if I don't have a good reason/explanation/suspect for a specific baord. Anyway I will swap only one board at a time ... thanks! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 16:44:57 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 17:44:57 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <4551E293.7110.64C1038@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>, <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk>, <20061108202048.80321A3F@fep7.cogeco.net> <4551E293.7110.64C1038@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45525DE9.2090109@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Nov 2006 at 15:20, Charles Fox wrote: > >> Didn't the Indians use smoke signals? Also, I believe I >> have read that in the middle ages in Europe they used bonfires to signal. > > We also can't ignore drum signaling. > > I suspect that signal fires, particularly among the seafaring peoples > go back to prehistoric times. But then, to qualify as email, they'd > have to be ELECTRIC signal fires, no? :) Or a fire that produces magic blue smoke? Peace... Sridhar From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Nov 8 16:45:40 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 14:45:40 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <001801c70383$b846df40$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING><45523DAE.6090606@srv.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <001801c70383$b846df40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45525E14.3070808@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > Henk wrote... >> I tried the suggestion from Don with the M9302 in the last slot of the >> 11/44 backplane. To my surprise, when you hit ^P, the system prints a >> new "(Program)" line and the cursor (_) moves to the next line. >> So, now I am thinking ... a wrong/dead terminator on the RL02 drive, >> can it have such an effect that through the RL11 controller the bus >> hangs?! > IF you changed the dipswitches on the UBI board as I mentioned in my > previous email, AND you get the same response as above (^P gives > another (program) display)... then I bet your front panel board (slot > 1AB) or your MFM board is toasty. ^P should toggle the console mode between talking to the 11/44 serial port (program) and the front panel microcontroller (>>> prompt). If ^P never comes back with a >>> prompt then as Jay said something is funky with your MFM module. IIRC if you put the front panel switch to the locked position if forces 'program' mode and ^P is ignored, all characters go to the 11/44. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 8 16:14:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:14:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611072340.SAA10665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 7, 6 06:39:13 pm Message-ID: > > > Yes, in fact they're called a "4-way" switch at your local hardware > > or electrical supply store (because they have 4 terminals). > > Ah! I'd always wondered why three-way switches were called three-way > when there are only two control points - and four-way switches four-way > when they give three, four, or more control points. This is one of those terms that is different in the UK and the States, then. In the UK, a '1 way switch; means that the light (or whatever) is controlled from one point, presumably using an SPST switch A '2 way swtich' means that it's controlled from 2 points, normally using SPDT switches A '3 way switch' means that it's controlled from 3 points. And so on The terms '1 way switch' and '2 way switch' are also often used to mean SPST (on/off) and SPDT (changeover) switches. The extra switch(es) needed for 3 way (or more) wiring are called 'intermediate swtiches' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 8 16:20:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:20:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 7, 6 04:48:01 pm Message-ID: > I'll dispute that rule of thumb. We are *not* doing the same task we > used to do at all. With increased processing power came increased > expectations. There isn't a single user these days that would put up > with what we called a "user interface" in 1979 -- scrolling text, > interview style. COuld you explain why you don't consider me to be 'a single user'? Because I am using essentially that interface right now (OK, I've got cursor addressing, what I don't have is windows, icons, or any of that stuff). And yes, I've used a plain terminal without cursor addressing (which was around long before 1979 I can assure you). Incidentally, it's odd you picked that date. It was the year the PERQ was announced, one of the first machines to haev only a bitmapped graphical display with no text mode at all. > The biggest bloat is in expectations, not the hardware or software > designed and built to meet those expectations. Just as it should be. It's a pity the main expectations that I have -- that the machine should work, that it shouldn't randomly crash, and that it should be able to be kept working for as long as I want to use it -- have been totally lost. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 8 16:41:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:41:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <45521161.8040309@yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Nov 8, 6 12:18:25 pm Message-ID: > I have an original XT board with 256k on it and I want to take it up to > 640k total. If it's an IBM XT mainboard, there's an easy way to do this (and not use up any expansion slots). Put 41256 chips in banks 0 and 1, and 4164s in banks 2 and 3 on the mainboard. Put a 74S158 (or 74F158) multiplexer chip in the emptu socket at the front right, pointing the same way as the chips around it. Set the DIP switches for 256K RAM, and solder a jumper wire between pads E1 and E2. That's it. You have a 640K XT mainboard. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 8 16:54:28 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:54:28 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><010801c7034c$b722af90$6700a8c0@BILLING><45523DAE.6090606@srv.net><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><001801c70383$b846df40$6700a8c0@BILLING> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7C1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <001b01c70388$dc64d620$6700a8c0@BILLING> Henk wrote... > Jep, I checked the switches, they are set just like you said: 1-2-7 ON, > rest OFF :-). I toggled 1-2-7 to OFF an back ON again, but the problem > is still here. To clarify, I get only the (Program) line, and then the > cursor moves to the next line. I do *not* get the ">>>" console prompt. A few things come to my (new and uninformed) brain on this. Perhaps your console emulator/diagnostic rom is bad? This is on the MFM card right next to the other roms. If you have another MFM, I'd swap it. If it fixes the problem. try moving the console/diag rom from the working one to the non-working one. If it then works, you know the first one had a bad console/diag rom. The M7090 board has (I *THINK*) little purpose other than signal level conversion and/or conditioning. All the real logic (and the 8085!) is on the MFM board. So if it's not a bad console/diag rom, I think it smells of MFM failure. Whichever you find easiest/possible to replace first.... Jay From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 16:59:54 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:59:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: uber-nerds (was Re: lisadraw) Message-ID: <200611082259.kA8Mxsso007221@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chris M wrote: > >> snip << > > Fine, but how many qualify for the uber-nerd > category > (I mean how much more of a nerd is there then > someone > who didn't get enough of this crappola when it was > current LOL LOL). > Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 fo r > a > piece of equipment, software, hardware, > paraphenalia, > whatever, that was at least 15 years old? I want t o > say 20+, but let's make it easy. And not for > work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one > qualify. oi > Hmmm... I spent about $400 (err.. $200 USD and $200 AUD) on 60 issues of 80 Microcomputing. But that probably doesn't count as it's 60 items (magazines) instead of just one. My other expensive purchases don't count as they were all made in the last decade. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 8 17:07:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:07:52 -0700 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <45525DE9.2090109@gmail.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>, <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk>, <20061108202048.80321A3F@fep7.cogeco.net> <4551E293.7110.64C1038@cclist.sydex.com> <45525DE9.2090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45526348.4040707@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Or a fire that produces magic blue smoke? I want to keep all my magic smoke inside my stuff. That makes me real happy. > Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Nov 8 17:04:23 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:04:23 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:04:34 +1300." Message-ID: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >I, on the other hand, _would_ elevate C much higher than Pascal, if >only because you can, among other things, adapt or even entirely >replace the standard library (unlike Pascal which has reserved >keywords for way too many things). > >C has been called a "glorified PDP-11 assember" - given that I learned >assembler on the PDP-11 (and the 6502 and 1802 and the Z-80...) before >I tried C, it all made sense very rapidly. I don't see that slam as a >limitation. I'm sure we could go on and on, but if you are interested in a different approach, go look at lisp, scheme, ruby and python. Once you master lisp/scheme (and to some extent, python and ruby), I think you may see the "glorified PDP-11 assember" comment in a different light. I will claim (and others will disagree) that being to write macros which are executed to generate code allows you to transcend the "assembler metaphore". You can effectively make a new language for each problem. Don't get me wrong, I like C for what is. It's a wonderful high level assembler (I can email you some lisp code which translates Alpha asm into C, for example). But it's lacking in some very useful higher level features (like strings and lambda expressions, for example). The problem tends to occur when people try to solve problems using C for which C is not suited. It's the old "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. I enjoyed my time with Pascal and TSX, but we could have done a better job with a language more suited to the problem we were trying to solve. no flames or long discussions about C, please. I would be interested to hear about other languages people used on pdp-11's however :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 17:12:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:12:34 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: References: <200611072340.SAA10665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 7, 6 06:39:13 pm, Message-ID: <4551F3E2.1792.68FAD03@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 22:14, Tony Duell wrote: > This is one of those terms that is different in the UK and the States, > then. In fact, neither convention makes much sense. Most lighting switches are 2-way; they're either in the "up" position or the "down" position. SPST, SPDT, etc. make sense up to a point, but the US "4 way" switch, while technically a DPDT, is a 4 terminal design, not 6. Even in the electronics business, the term DPDT can refer to a switch with a center-off position or one without (i.e. a single "throw"). Is there a better terminology available? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 17:13:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 12:13:44 +1300 Subject: Spending $$$ on classic hardware (was Re: lisadraw) Message-ID: On 11/9/06, Richard wrote: > > In article <20061108022926.45215.qmail at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > --- Richard wrote: > > > > > Guilty as charged, Sir! And by definition, that > > > takes me out of the > > > category of the lowly user :-). > > > > A full confession is in order. > > Um, let's see... $350 for a Beehive terminal. > $1200 for a lot of Tektronix terminals :-) > $500 for a PDP-11/03 w/peripherals > > I think those are the only ones where I broke the $200 barrier. $600 for an RL8A in the mid '80s, $400 for a KT24 (to run 2BSD), over $1000 for a PDP-8/S, $800 for a SPARC1 in the early 90s... Guilty, guilty, guilty. At least the SPARC was an investment in my future (my SPARC experience was directly responsible for getting me my first trip to the South Pole in 1996). The others were just toys. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 8 17:36:21 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:36:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200611082342.SAA06548@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But [C]'s lacking in some very useful higher level features (like > strings and lambda expressions, for example). Actually, if you use gcc instead, it has something very much like lambda-expressions in many of their common uses. You don't get real data-as-code lambda expressions, but you get functions with no real name which appear textually at the point of use. For example, qsort(vec, n, sizeof(FOO), ({ int cmp(const void *a, const void *b) { return( ((FOO *)a)->sortkey - ((FOO *)b)->sortkey ); } &cmp; }) ); It's one of the four extensions to C I like and use; I find they greatly increase the utility of the language. (The others are nonlocal gotos as a throw mechanism, array sizes which are not compile-time constants, and labeled control structure - the last not being present in stock gcc.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 8 17:42:58 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:42:58 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <45526348.4040707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <45525DE9.2090109@gmail.com> <45526348.4040707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200611081842.58788.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 November 2006 18:07, woodelf wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Or a fire that produces magic blue smoke? Edited properly: > magic smoke > makes me real happy. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 17:50:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:50:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <455168AD.2050209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20061108235005.35053.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > > > You're not a user. You're a geek. You don't > count! ;-) > > Umm... Just in HEX do they count! Nerds are binary! ? 2 fingers on each hand? 2...excuse me...00000010 piggies on each foot? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 17:57:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:57:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <200611080554.AAA23446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20061108235750.80859.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > > Not so much so that he bid on Chuck's auction. > > I don't bid on auctions at all; on the few occasions > when I've had > anything to do with auctions, someone else has dealt > with the auction > interfacing. (The reasons I don't ebay are legion; > I can go through > them if someone really cares, but since I don't > expect any significant > number of people to care, I'd rather do that > off-list if at all. Some > of them apply to other auction "sites" as well.) It was really a joke. And a comparison of the type of people (uber-nerds) that are actually willing to pay considerable cash for some piece of vintage gear. Yet I'm of the persuasion that very few of them participate in a list like this, or any of the other vintage related discussion boards. Yer darn tootin I'm thrifty, but to date (except for the few replies as of yesterday) I'm the person who has spent more on vintage stuph then anyone I personally know of. > > But then again he's probably already got a few > stashed away ;) > > I might be able to say, if someone would tell me > what's under > discussion. Based on the subject, I'd guess Lisas, > in which case no, I > don't think I've ever even used one, much less owned > one. No, Lisas generally have moved beyond the ~$300 mark these days (working ones anyway). That was a floppy controller. The auctioneer specified it's operable w/8" drives. My guess as to why the bidding went that high - and in reality what other reason could there have been. > > Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to > $300 a year on your > > phone bill. > > Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/ > > No thanks. I am not willing to make my phone > service dependent on > house mains power, much less my netlink too. Was that tacked onto the end of my post? Sorry, yahoo is to blame. I'm getting progressively sick of them, and in fact want to obtain my own domain and such. If anyone's got any pointers, please feel free to e-wail me offlist. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 8 18:03:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:03:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > TEXT on my Tandy 200 starts one heckuva lot faster at 2.4Mhz than > OpenOffice on my 2.4 GHz. "Wordstar on an 4.077 MHz 8088 could keep up with my typing; WinWord under Windoze on a 300 MHz PII can't." --Seth Breidbart /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Nov 8 18:16:29 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:16:29 -0800 Subject: epay listings Message-ID: <4552735D.5050206@msm.umr.edu> There are a number of listings by one vendor that are of interest. the thing I found was an LNW-80 system board, but he also has a full system, system expansion board as well. Also are some Ohio Scientific parts, and Imsai, apple Pineapple clone. Also someone may know what a Commodore MSD super disk is listed. vendor is "fdbruce" one listing number is 170045443608 LNW auctions for parts end today. others are out as far as a week. (Today is Wednesday@ 418pst) FWIW, the transit of Mercury ended a bit ago. Jim From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 8 18:23:15 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 19:23:15 -0500 Subject: paging jerome fine In-Reply-To: <010801c6fbd2$c0abdb30$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010801c6fbd2$c0abdb30$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <455274F3.8090509@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > My email address for Jerome Fine is dead.... anyone have a working > email for him please email me offlist! Jerome Fine replies: I have used the same e-mail address on classiccmp since January 1st, 2006. Jay did not reply to my private e-mail and no one else seems to know, so I thought a public reply would be appropriate. Jay - what is up? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 18:42:33 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:42:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061109004233.28197.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > I have an original XT board with 256k on it and I > want to take it up to > > 640k total. > > If it's an IBM XT mainboard, there's an easy way to > do this (and not use > up any expansion slots). > > Put 41256 chips in banks 0 and 1, and 4164s in banks > 2 and 3 on the > mainboard. Put a 74S158 (or 74F158) multiplexer chip > in the emptu socket > at the front right, pointing the same way as the > chips around it. Set the > DIP switches for 256K RAM, and solder a jumper wire > between pads E1 and E2. > > That's it. You have a 640K XT mainboard. > > -tony > I read something in an early BYTE stating that as time went on, the dip switches on the pc's mobo had little consequence on the systems ability to determine the amount of ram installed. Am I in error to state that the dip switches are read by code? Perhaps someone can confirm, deny, elaborate, denounce... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 18:55:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:55:25 -0800 Subject: epay listings In-Reply-To: <4552735D.5050206@msm.umr.edu> References: <4552735D.5050206@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45520BFD.14726.6EDD37B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 16:16, jim stephens wrote: > There are a number of listings by one vendor that are of > interest. If you're into collecting unusual PeeCees, there's a Toshiba "suitcase computer" on yahoo! auctions for 40 clams: http://auctions.yahoo.com/i:Toshiba%20Suitcase%20Computer:11875524 Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 8 19:01:05 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 17:01:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061109004233.28197.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061109004233.28197.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061108165630.R92062@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > I read something in an early BYTE stating that as > time went on, the dip switches on the pc's mobo had > little consequence on the systems ability to determine > the amount of ram installed. Am I in error to state > that the dip switches are read by code? Perhaps > someone can confirm, deny, elaborate, denounce... The PC (5150) had TWO sets of switches, one for RAM, and one for other configuration (drives, FPU, etc.) The XT had ONE set of switches for configuration, and made its own determination of how much RAM there was. Int 11h returns (in AX) the configuration switches. Int 12h returns the amount of RAM. From safehaus at webhart.net Wed Nov 8 19:37:25 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:37:25 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <454B9631.4050607@gjcp.net> References: <200611031828.kA3ISVBs016418@floodgap.com> <454B9035.7060306@jetnet.ab.ca> <454B9631.4050607@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45528655.4080506@webhart.net> SIGH Amateurs. - Dr. Seuss Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>> Well now that you mention it, it's hard to contest the zest of a >>>> Jay West >>>> test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as >>>> a guest >>>> at the fest. >> >>> The smell is the smoking ashes of my dictionary looking for other >>> non-infectional forms ending with -est. (as you ... guessed) >>> >> >> Hmm time to put this to rest :"Well now that you mention it, it's >> hard to contest the zest of a Jay West >> test as it's best to keep that nest abreast, lest you be a pest as a >> guest >> at the fest." :) > > West's jest, could it be put on his crest? For a knight on a quest it > might well be best, if worn on a vest when one is put to the test. > > Gordon > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 20:12:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:12:23 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061108165630.R92062@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061109004233.28197.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, <20061108165630.R92062@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45521E07.14845.7344B68@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 17:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > The PC (5150) had TWO sets of switches, one for RAM, and one for other > configuration (drives, FPU, etc.) It's one of those endearing things about the 5150 that I like. The 5150 actually needed NO DIP switches--the hardware designers must have had a very low opinion of the software people. Consider: the first bank, memory size, describes available memory only up to 64K (on the original 5150). The number of available diskette drives can be determined easily by software (note that there was no "drive type" setting, as all drives were assumed to be 5.25" 320/360/160/180K types). NDP presence is again easy to determine with software. Presence of a CGA or MDA is easy enough--and if a CGA was detected, it's easy enough to start things in 40x25 mode--a switch to 80x25 can be made in the autoexec.bat file easily enough (or the SCREEN command in ROM BASIC). Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 8 20:26:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:26:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <45521E07.14845.7344B68@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061109004233.28197.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, <20061108165630.R92062@shell.lmi.net> <45521E07.14845.7344B68@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061108182452.T97062@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's one of those endearing things about the 5150 that I like. The > 5150 actually needed NO DIP switches--the hardware designers must > have had a very low opinion of the software people. Not only did it not NEED switches, ... about 50% of them seem to have the FPU switch set incorrectly. Gee, what does a bar over something mean? :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 8 20:30:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 20:30:35 -0600 Subject: ra81's are irking me Message-ID: <003401c703a7$0c14cce0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> After swapping out 3 HDA's and 2 servo boards, I had one RA81 working - mostly. For some reason the system wouldn't see it on port A, but it would on port B. Oddness. Anyways, since the day I had it working (and got RT11 loaded on it), the system will no longer see it. I have moved around and changed some of the cabling between the drive cabinet and the cpu cabinet, but I don't see that I've done anything wrong. I put the cabling back the way it was (I could be mistaken) and still no joy. During the basic UDA50 diag it says there are no drives connected (same thing for >>>B DU0). I'm still plowing through the docs (again), but can anyone suggest anything "obvious" that isn't clear in the docs with regards to connecting an RA81 to a UDA 50 that a newbie like me could be missing? I'm up for any input :) Jay West From pechter at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 20:52:57 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:52:57 -0500 Subject: ra81's are irking me In-Reply-To: <003401c703a7$0c14cce0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003401c703a7$0c14cce0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: I think (It's a long time since my '86 DEC Days...) there was one of the cables between the drive and the cabinet that was kind of null modem'd. This could be the problem if at one time the drive was direct cabled to the UDA and is now going through one cabinet-> drive cable without the corresponding Cabinet--> uda cable hookup. Been a long time... I could be wrong. If there's an extra cable in the wiring try to just eliminate it. (I assume the correct drive number's on the drive select plug etc.) On 11/8/06, Jay West wrote: > > After swapping out 3 HDA's and 2 servo boards, I had one RA81 working - > mostly. For some reason the system wouldn't see it on port A, but it would > on port B. Oddness. > > Anyways, since the day I had it working (and got RT11 loaded on it), the > system will no longer see it. I have moved around and changed some of the > cabling between the drive cabinet and the cpu cabinet, but I don't see > that > I've done anything wrong. I put the cabling back the way it was (I could > be > mistaken) and still no joy. During the basic UDA50 diag it says there are > no > drives connected (same thing for >>>B DU0). > > I'm still plowing through the docs (again), but can anyone suggest > anything > "obvious" that isn't clear in the docs with regards to connecting an RA81 > to > a UDA 50 that a newbie like me could be missing? > > I'm up for any input :) > > Jay West > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 8 21:16:08 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:16:08 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <1162972466.2911.73.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <0ba101c703ad$66e18630$0501a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Warren Wolfe Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? Hey, it's worse than that. I recall seeing, about a year ago, an ad for an electronics project SIMULATOR in Windows software. You build the project, and it pretends to run it, and does what real components would do, producing a signal on screen, and as sound, if appropriate. *SIGH* -end snip- That actually sounds cool, kind of a electronic breadboard..... From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 21:20:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:20:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? Message-ID: <20061109032043.98386.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I just found a bow of brand new Iomega 100meggers for $20 (x10). Was thinking of hacking a scsi card for the T2K, but how long will zips be available? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! http://www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 8 21:20:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:20:42 -0600 Subject: ra81's are irking me References: <003401c703a7$0c14cce0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006301c703ae$0c21e810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill wrote.... >I think (It's a long time since my '86 DEC Days...) there was one of the > cables between the drive and the cabinet that was kind of null modem'd. Ah, that makes sense. That doesn't seem to be documented (cept perhaps in the prints which I haven't looked at yet). So, how does one test (or tell) if a given cable is non-null-modem'd or null-modem'd (with respect to SDI), and what should it be end to end? That way I can find the right kind of cable :) Thanks! Jay West From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 8 21:21:23 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:21:23 -0800 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <200611081100.kA8B0GEH005230@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <0c0b01c703ae$22b5c880$0501a8c0@liberator> I thought the Altos 586 was a Z-80 cpm machine or am I misremembering the one I had ages ago, kind of a "diamond" shaped case IIRC <:::::::::> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 3:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: imaging XENIX disks > > I made images of the Xenix disks I have for my Altos > > with ImageDisk and it worked for me. > Oohhh.. which Altos would this be ? I'm looking for Xenix > for my Altos 886. It's a 586 - and unfortunately I don't have a full set of install media - just a couple of "homemade" disks that I got with the machine, one of which boots (IIRC). > As I understand it Altos Xenix (for the 886) at least was quad > density disks. 80 tracks, double density. Should be able to > image them using a 1.2M 5.25" PC floppy as long as software > can understand the format (I'd think it should do it anyway). ImageDisk has no problem reading/writing 80 track DD on 1.2M drives. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 21:42:14 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 22:42:14 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <200611082313.kA8ND95J006892@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611082313.kA8ND95J006892@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4552A396.5030502@yahoo.com> I'll have to look. But, I don't think this board has sockets. I believe it has 4 banks of soldered in 64k chips. Thanks! And if you re-read my message. The RAM board is UNPOPULATED. It has NO CHIPS. I was going to scavenge some from somewhere... Al > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:55:28 -0600 > From: "Julian Wolfe" > Subject: RE: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <001501c70378$38e29240$3c0718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > What's your XT got in it now? Most non-IBM boards you could populate to 640K > anyway so there was no point in those cards. If it's got 41256 chips on it, > pull them from the card and install them in the motherboard banks, and then > set the switches properly on your XT motherboard and you should be OK. > > I have an IBM XT motherboard in my 5155, so I went ahead and did the 640K > upgrade and put the chips in. It freed up a slot on my machine, so I > installed an AST RAMpage/2 in it. It's now got 2625KB of usable RAM > (Windows 3.0 loves it!) > > I've done a bunch of work collecting utilities that will correct certain > issues with old hardware or enhance certain capabilities (like get rid of > snow and speed up scrolling on CGA and EGA cards, and stabilize/speedup NEC > v20 chips) Let me know if you need my help. > > Julian From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 21:45:59 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 22:45:59 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <200611082313.kA8ND95J006892@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611082313.kA8ND95J006892@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4552A477.6020302@yahoo.com> I'll take a look. But I think all four rows are soldered in. Thanks!!! Al > If it's an IBM XT mainboard, there's an easy way to do this (and not use > up any expansion slots). > > Put 41256 chips in banks 0 and 1, and 4164s in banks 2 and 3 on the > mainboard. Put a 74S158 (or 74F158) multiplexer chip in the emptu socket > at the front right, pointing the same way as the chips around it. Set the > DIP switches for 256K RAM, and solder a jumper wire between pads E1 and E2. > > That's it. You have a 640K XT mainboard. > > -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 21:47:32 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks Message-ID: <20061109034732.56554.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> several have that same look. Methinks the 586 has a 186. old-computers.com. There might be an Altos on ebay right now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 21:54:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... Message-ID: <20061109035447.80437.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> is anyone familiar with a IIrC sip module that has probably smt 4164s (or 41256s). Besides the obvious physical difference, could they replace normal ics? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 8 22:16:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:16:43 -0800 Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <20061109032043.98386.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061109032043.98386.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45523B2B.3833.7A6220E@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2006 at 19:20, Chris M wrote: > I just found a bow of brand new Iomega 100meggers for > $20 (x10). Was thinking of hacking a scsi card for the > T2K, but how long will zips be available? I wouldn't worry too much, 100MB Zip carts have enjoyed popularity for what, about a decade? There should be plenty kicking around for years to come. Heck, I think I can still buy carts for a SparQ drive--and they've been gone how long? But consider that a new 100MB Zip disk runs between $10-15. For about the same money, I can get a half-gig USB flash drive for about that much. So, let's see--5 times the storage, no need for a drive and no moving parts--and a fraction of the physical size of a Zip-- I'd venture that the Zip drive doesn't stand much of a chance of modern deployment... Cheers, Chuck From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 7 20:01:24 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 21:01:24 -0500 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) References: Message-ID: <004501c702d9$cb868ce0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > I suppose it depends on your definition of 'pc'. Pretty much everything > designed before say 1982 was free of custom logic AFAIK, this includes (not > a complete list by any stretch) the Acorn System x and Atom, Compukit UK101, > Tangerine Microtan65, Sinclair ZX80, Grundy Newbrain (an exception) etc. All > 'personal computers'. Perhaps the (1982?) Husky Hunter John From KCOCF at NETINS.NET Tue Nov 7 21:22:15 2006 From: KCOCF at NETINS.NET (Michael Larson) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 21:22:15 -0600 Subject: OT: Software for Transtronics/Intronics EPROM programmer Message-ID: <007f01c702e5$1d5c67f0$6600a8c0@amdxp3200> Bob, I have the pocket programmer and have lost the disk as well, did you ever find a file to run it? I know it's a dos only disk, but that is not a problem. Let me know. Mike IOWA From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 8 15:48:48 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:48:48 -0500 Subject: lisadraw References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <008901c7037f$ac23b660$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Same here..., If I want a sine table, an M102 can produce it before my PC is booted..., *long* before, AND, I could do while I'm walking around, If I wanted to.. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:54 PM Subject: Re: lisadraw > On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, John Foust wrote: > > I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the > > old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. Now that > > the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in inflation-adjusted > > dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. > > Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. > > example: > I want to type a grocery list > start a RS M100, Coco, M1, Apple][, Osborn, N*, and a "modern" machine. > I can be finished typing, and printing before the "modern" machine has > finished booting. > > > From PLM3128 at aol.com Tue Nov 7 16:09:04 2006 From: PLM3128 at aol.com (PLM3128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:09:04 EST Subject: SN94281 Message-ID: Do you have any SN94281 or know where I might acquire them I need a fist full. Thank You From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Nov 8 05:31:27 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:31:27 -0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CC5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> BBC Micro everybody had one!! -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 01 November 2006 10:44 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) Chris M wrote: >>> What this implies is that the PC was several years >> delayed in UK. >> >> No, this implies I was quoting from a magazine. > > I've heard stuph to the effect that there wasn't alot of Big Blue > stuph in the UK, at least not in the early days. Not on the desktop - I think there were a fair few 'server' class systems around though. But yes, my understanding is that the PC just didn't take off in the UK like it did in the USA (and elsewhere?). Remember that the UK had a massive amount of choice when it came to general desktop machines - quite probably more so than the USA did. UK society at the time was very much "squeeze every last possible drop out of what you had", whilst the impression I've got of the US was that people were far more willing to upgrade systems reasonably frequently to whatever the latest thing available was. > Research Machines was a big name though, and common. In education, yes. Not so much for home or business use, though. What timeframe are we talking - say 1982 to 1985 or so? The education market was split primarily between Research Machines and Acorn, with a few others picking up the scraps. The home computer market was amazingly diverse, but frequent names were Sinclair, Acorn and Commodore. The corporate world of desktops was similarly diverse (with the likes of CP/M crates, Commodore, Apple, and IBM all featuring) - but there were also a huge number of business people making use of the same machines that were found in the home. Often these people were talented enough to write their own bespoke software to manage their business, but there was a healthy market in 'business' software written for these machines too. A while back I came up with a list of early-80s UK computer manufacturers (in order to see how much space we'd need for a UK-specific room at the museum). It ended up being pretty massive... > I still want the blooming Nimbus Good grief, why? They're pretty nasty. If you want something from RML, go for a 380Z or a 480Z - those are 'real' computers; the 380Z has that lovely rugged 'military' feel to it with all the fun of a modular system (albeit without a rigid backplane :-) whilst the 480Z is a great example of good design, both hardware and packaging. cheers Jules From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 18:19:06 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:19:06 -0500 Subject: free DEC video cable Message-ID: The computer side is 15 pin femail D shape connector. The other side has GRB connectors and one 4pin telephone style port which might be a keyboard port. $5 shipping if you are in the US. Dirty, but no physical damage is observed. Not tested and I don't know what system it was used with. See attached photo. vax, 9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 18:22:58 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:22:58 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) Message-ID: DEC P/N 17-02008-02, No physical damage observed. Not tested. Don't know whether it is DEC specific SCSI cable or a generic one. $5 shipping in the US. See attached photo. vax, 9000 From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 8 22:25:10 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:25:10 -0500 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <0c0b01c703ae$22b5c880$0501a8c0@liberator> References: <0c0b01c703ae$22b5c880$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <200611082325.10421.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 November 2006 22:21, Geoff Reed wrote: > I thought the Altos 586 was a Z-80 cpm machine or am I misremembering > the one I had ages ago, kind of a "diamond" shaped case IIRC > <:::::::::> The 580 is z80 based, the 586 is 80x86-based. (I think that's an 8086) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 8 22:30:19 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:30:19 -0600 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? Message-ID: <1bfa2f59e7fa40afb44e445d41d27dc4@valleyimplants.com> What Warren Wrote: > Hey, it's worse than that. I recall seeing, about a year ago, an ad >for an electronics project SIMULATOR in Windows software. You build the >project, and it pretends to run it, and does what real components would >do, producing a signal on screen, and as sound, if appropriate. *SIGH* Perhaps the software in question was slightly different, but electronics simulation software (such as PSPICE and its variants) have been around for a while- used it in college. Very convienient to be able to mock something up with the magic smoke being completely virtual, especially when you barely know what you're doing. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Nov 8 22:29:35 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:29:35 -0800 Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <0ba101c703ad$66e18630$0501a8c0@liberator> References: <0ba101c703ad$66e18630$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <4552AEAF.2000906@msm.umr.edu> Geoff Reed wrote: > > > Hey, it's worse than that. I recall seeing, about a year ago, an ad >for an electronics project SIMULATOR in Windows software. You build the >project, and it pretends to run it, and does what real components would >do, producing a signal on screen, and as sound, if appropriate. *SIGH* > >-end snip- > > does it release proper colored smoke if you wire it up wrong. Most things I try to hook up release some of some color or another. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 22:44:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 20:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? Message-ID: <20061109044404.88838.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> goofy question, but what sounds easier, a scsi or cflash type interface for a 2K? There probably are any # of scsi designs that could be modified. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! http://www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 8 22:43:52 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:43:52 -0600 Subject: Apple Tape Backup 40SC question Message-ID: <541127b3d54b43ec937b26928a9f4cd5@valleyimplants.com> I've been talking with someone (the gentleman in Canada who has the A/UX 1.0 media (medium? it's just one tape...)) about getting his drive operational again (gummed roller). We've gotten as far as replacing the capstan with a similarly- sized piece of tubing, and now he's having problems with the tape coming off the reels (no problems on another DC2000 (I think) style drive) I'm at a loss (can't see the setup, either). Any ideas? I've gone over the loose bands problem with him, and it isn't that. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 8 22:50:28 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:50:28 -0600 Subject: old DEC software Message-ID: For the most part, no software is available because DEC/Compaq/HP hasn't given permission for redistribution (other than the implicit one in your being allowed to borrow someone's VMS set with a valid Hobbyist license). The rumors I've heard indicate that OSF/1-DIGITAL Unix-Tru64 is "encumbered" and so is unlikely to ever be freely released. The GossipNet indicates that this (encumberances and royalty payments) is why the "Enthusiast" license is $100 instead of the VMS program's $0 (or $30 if you want the disk). Sadly, Alpha died at the end of October and the enthusiast Tru64 program likely died with it. Ultrix seems to be a slippery beast, though, and pops up from time to time on the Internet, in both VAX and MIPS forms- look around. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 8 22:56:12 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:56:12 -0500 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <129897E2-9FC9-4103-BD99-92866207F625@neurotica.com> On Nov 6, 2006, at 6:31 PM, dzubint at vcn.bc.ca wrote: > ahhhh, I just finished installing the newest (Nov 1 2006) v4.0 > OpenBSD on > my MicroVAX 3100 (17 years old) > It really gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that they're still useable. I rather like that myself. From 1994 (or so) through 1997, I ran two DECstation-3100s in production roles on my home network; one as a name server and one as a mail server handling several medium-volume lists. Around the same time I used a pair of VAXstation-3100/38 machines in production doing the same things at an ISP in NJ. All four machines were running NetBSD. They barely broke a sweat under the load, and had a 100% reliability record for the nearly three years that they were running. That's damn good stuff! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 8 23:29:27 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:29:27 -0800 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <200611082325.10421.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0c2901c703c0$066ed740$0501a8c0@liberator> Thank you, it was a 580 I had.... I must be developing a bad sector in my file allocation tables :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 8:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: imaging XENIX disks On Wednesday 08 November 2006 22:21, Geoff Reed wrote: > I thought the Altos 586 was a Z-80 cpm machine or am I misremembering > the one I had ages ago, kind of a "diamond" shaped case IIRC > <:::::::::> The 580 is z80 based, the 586 is 80x86-based. (I think that's an 8086) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 8 23:34:12 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:34:12 -0800 Subject: Software for Transtronics/Intronics EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: <007f01c702e5$1d5c67f0$6600a8c0@amdxp3200> Message-ID: <0c2a01c703c0$b02aaf20$0501a8c0@liberator> There is a windows upgrade for the pocket programmer, and a company currently selling them (well, currently as of a year ago was the last time I looked) http://www.xtronics.com/ also, they at least -used to upgrade the old PP's to the newer style, don't know if they still do, I seem to remember that to run the windows software you needed to add or remove a capacitor or resistor IIRC..... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Larson Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 7:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: OT: Software for Transtronics/Intronics EPROM programmer Bob, I have the pocket programmer and have lost the disk as well, did you ever find a file to run it? I know it's a dos only disk, but that is not a problem. Let me know. Mike IOWA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 9 00:00:05 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 01:00:05 -0500 Subject: FA: Litton disk drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75433133-75D1-4732-94B4-EA6FF9758705@neurotica.com> On Nov 7, 2006, at 6:55 PM, Richard wrote: > What do these go with? I didn't know Litton made disc drives. > > Pics: > eventId=2619&lotNumber=45&picNumber=1> > > Lot: > auctionId=1036131&convertTo=USD> That looks like a CDC 9762 SMD drive to me, a.k.a. DEC RM02/RM03. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From wizard at voyager.net Thu Nov 9 00:39:24 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 01:39:24 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <4551CB1B.5060405@arachelian.com> References: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> <1162969837.2911.66.camel@linux.site> <4551CB1B.5060405@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <1163054364.2911.90.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 07:18 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > > It's too bad, in a way. The effort put into the Lisa > > was gargantuan, and directed very well. On its own, it > > was a great product. It was just the user interface which > > was appropriated without permission. > I'm not sure that the above is correct. All the historical sources > point to the exact opposite. Steve Jobs gave Xerox a ton of Apple stock > to "sort of open the kimono at Xerox PARC." It was allowed and well > known, and if you read the stories on folklore.org and compare a Star or > an Alto to a Lisa you'll find there are vast differences in the UI. It > simply wasn't just copied, much less without permission. If there was some explicit arrangement between Xerox and Apple, I'd like to know about it. I don't know of any. Xerox's PARC developed the technology. The Lisa WAS under development before the Apple "field trip" to the PARC, but it was going to be a much less impressive machine. From people at Apple at the time, I have heard of a memo from Jobs stating he wanted to drop their current UI, which can be seen at http://www.pegasus3d.com/apple_screens.html and adopt the Star interface, and develop from there. Jobs also hired a bunch of people at the PARC away from Xerox. Apple sued Microsoft over the fact that Windows (as claimed by Apple) had stolen the Macintosh (or Lisa) interface. Bill Gate's defense was, when it was boiled down, that both Apple and Microsoft had stolen the interface from Xerox. Upon hearing that, Xerox filed suit against Apple in the middle of the Apple vs. Microsoft trial. In typical Xerox fashion, they filed about two weeks past the deadline. Their lack of business acumen in the computer field ensured that they didn't really profit from some of the finest human engineering ever done. If there WAS an agreement about the technology between Xerox and Apple, why did they sue them for taking it? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 9 00:47:40 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 06:47:40 -0000 Subject: ra81's are irking me In-Reply-To: <006301c703ae$0c21e810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001201c703ca$f4bcf5d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jay West wrote: > Bill wrote.... >> I think (It's a long time since my '86 DEC Days...) there was one of >> the cables between the drive and the cabinet that was kind of null >> modem'd. > > Ah, that makes sense. That doesn't seem to be documented (cept > perhaps in the prints which I haven't looked at yet). So, how does > one test (or tell) if a given cable is non-null-modem'd or > null-modem'd (with respect to SDI), and what should it be end to end? > That way I can find the right kind of cable :) There is (AFAIK) only one type of SDI cable and you need an odd number of them between drive and controller. Typically you have three: controller to system cab bulkhead (internal cable), system cab to drive cab (external) and drive cab bulkhead to drive (internal). Another source of confusion (although probably not here) is that although there are two ports (A & B) only one is active at a time and switching between them takes a second (or two). In this case I presume that you only have one cabled up anyway. The confusion usually arose because some older drives could be cabled to two systems simultanbeously (although you had to mount as read-only on one if you valued your sanity and your data). Antonio From wizard at voyager.net Thu Nov 9 01:10:05 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 02:10:05 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1163056205.2911.107.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 18:04 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > I will claim (and others will disagree) that being to write macros which > are executed to generate code allows you to transcend the "assembler > metaphore". You can effectively make a new language for each problem. ... or paragraph... > I enjoyed my time with Pascal and TSX, but we could have done a better job > with a language more suited to the problem we were trying to solve. I worked at a company which produced a distributed processing database system. The program set was just over a million lines of Pascal. It was a specialized Pascal, however, which started out life as HP Pascal. With a better library, it was a truly useful language. It was ALWAYS, as I see it, more suited for applications programs than system work, however. C is good when it functions as a general-case assembler. In other words, for jobs that you would LIKE to do in assembler, except for the fact that it would be limited to one machine. I especially like the Small C model - congregate all the machine-dependent routines in one spot, for easy modification for alternate machines. Being able to drop to assembler is cool, too, and removes most objections. Program logic is not fun in assembler, whereas sometimes nothing but assembler will produce the tight code needed. In Small C, I often wrote the programs, made sure they worked, and then took a few of the crucial routines, and re-did often used sections of them in assembler. Best of both worlds, IMHO. Speed of programming, speed of execution. > no flames or long discussions about C, please. Killjoy. > I would be interested to hear about other languages people used on > pdp-11's however :-) I've got a weird one: MUMPS. It's kind of a mutant OS/DB/programming language. It allows all sorts of stuff, including self-modifying code. It's GREAT on list manipulations, and truly horrid at any kind of math. It was originally designed to deal with patient records for hospitals, and smells a lot like BASIC. For some obscure reason, American publisher Van Nostrand Reinhold considers me an expert on it, although I've only done a bit of maintenance programming in it. I get called to review any books on the subject submitted to them -- or did until my last move. (I think I lost them...) Anyway, Brad, is that weird enough for you? I used it on PDP 11/23 and PDP 11/45 machines. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 01:45:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 23:45:46 -0800 Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <20061109044404.88838.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061109044404.88838.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45526C2A.16390.86582D8@cclist.sydex.com> I dunno--you could buy this compact flash interface and hook it to your comm port: http://www.futurlec.com/CompBoard.shtml Not goofy at all--and I might give the edge to the CF board on a 2000. Cheers, Chuck On 8 Nov 2006 at 20:44, Chris M wrote: > goofy question, but what sounds easier, a scsi or > cflash type interface for a 2K? There probably are any > # of scsi designs that could be modified. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sponsored Link > > Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. > Calculate new payment! > http://www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Nov 9 01:59:41 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:59:41 +0100 Subject: ra81's are irking me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880DE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Bill wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Pechter > Sent: donderdag 9 november 2006 3:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ra81's are irking me > > I think (It's a long time since my '86 DEC Days...) there was > one of the cables between the drive and the cabinet that was > kind of null modem'd. > > This could be the problem if at one time the drive was direct > cabled to the UDA and is now going through one cabinet-> > drive cable without the corresponding Cabinet--> uda cable hookup. > > Been a long time... I could be wrong. If there's an extra > cable in the wiring try to just eliminate it. > > (I assume the correct drive number's on the drive select plug etc.) Never heard of an SDI "null-modem" cable! It makes sense however, as you normally need an *odd* number of cables between the UDA and the RA8x drive. Since the (red) cable has a different connector at the UDA side, you often need 2 cables to get to the drive. But that does not work as you have to get a *third* cable. That "null-modem" SDI cable would come in handy! I have not had problems with my RA81 (till now, but it's been a year that it ran for my 11/44). Like Jay, I have some six RA81's. One recenty booted VAX-VMS on the VAX-11/750, so that one is fine. The other 4 ... never had a look! Same goes for the RA60 ... I always wanted to measure an SDI cable to understand why you need three of them to get it working... Perhaps Bill has the answer, I never got round to check them, yet. Anyway Jay, if it worked before you moved things around, you either had hardware (HDA, boards) that were about to fail, one of the cables was "old", perhaps bent a lot and using/moving it developed an open wire in it, or perhaps a loose connection? Try some other cables if you have them. Depending on which cable you connect (the RA81 drive has two, correct?) you connect to port A or port B. If port A is not responsive, connect the UDA to the other drive cable. Now port A is connected and port B is "off". Also possible, if port A *is* connected, check the bulb in the button! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 02:23:42 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:23:42 +0000 Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/11/06 00:19, "9000 VAX" wrote: > The computer side is 15 pin femail D shape connector. The other side has GRB > connectors and one 4pin telephone style port which might be a keyboard port. > $5 shipping if you are in the US. Dirty, but no physical damage is observed. > Not tested and I don't know what system it was used with. See attached > photo. Of course, the mail system running the list strips out any attachments, but that cable is the colour video cable for the Rainbow and quite possibly the Pro series as well..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 9 04:05:50 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 04:05:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? In-Reply-To: <4551E94C.2070405@gmail.com> References: <4550AFCB.11004.19DB2D1@cclist.sydex.com> <4551E94C.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really has me mystified: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 > > Prices on old new-in-box hardware always tends to get a little wonky. Tell me about it... I can't complain too much though as some of the NOS stuff I had pack-ratted away has been selling pretty good. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 9 04:08:15 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 04:08:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: <45523FED.5080306@srv.net> References: <4551B339.2010901@yahoo.co.uk> <45523FED.5080306@srv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Kevin Handy wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I don't think Wal-mart acknowledge that RS232 exists, to be honest. I >> went in the other day to see how much they charged for a USB-serial >> adapter and they didn't appear to stock them (but they did have >> USB-parallel adapters, which suggests they know that USB adapter >> gadgets do exist) > > I've found them at Staples and OfficeMax, but even then they are hard to > find. Anything dealing with serial ports is getting hard to find, > including cables, genter changers, and null modems. And just try finding a decent quality powered breakout box with signal monitoring in the local "computer" shops these days... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 9 04:09:54 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 04:09:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? In-Reply-To: References: <454B7260.433.566093F2@cclist.sydex.com> <454CC1DE.22975.5B7F160C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/5/06, Tothwolf wrote: >> The LED packs were also a lot of fun. Where else could you >> pay $1.50-$2.00 for a pile of weird looking and one of a kind leds? :) > > Indeed. Those were probably my favorite of all the packs. Like many > things, I still have a few 1970s LEDs lying around (only a few - most > didn't survive my teenage "let's put a lot of power through these and > see them smoke" phase ;-) *chuckle* I hate to admit that I did some of that myself. The red ones always held up longer than the green or amber too ;P -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 9 04:18:12 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 04:18:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > For the most part, no software is available because DEC/Compaq/HP hasn't > given permission for redistribution (other than the implicit one in your > being allowed to borrow someone's VMS set with a valid Hobbyist > license). The rumors I've heard indicate that OSF/1-DIGITAL Unix-Tru64 > is "encumbered" and so is unlikely to ever be freely released. The > GossipNet indicates that this (encumberances and royalty payments) is > why the "Enthusiast" license is $100 instead of the VMS program's $0 (or > $30 if you want the disk). Sadly, Alpha died at the end of October and > the enthusiast Tru64 program likely died with it. > Ultrix seems to be a slippery beast, though, and pops up from time to > time on the Internet, in both VAX and MIPS forms- look around. As I understand it, some of the larger systems I ended up with originally ran OSF/1, but the OS tapes were tossed out before I got them. I *did* end up with quite a bit of Tru64 stuff, but I really needed something older... -Toth From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Nov 9 05:34:06 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 06:34:06 -0500 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <0c0b01c703ae$22b5c880$0501a8c0@liberator> References: <200611081100.kA8B0GEH005230@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200611091038.kA9Acs6c028209@hosting.monisys.ca> > I thought the Altos 586 was a Z-80 cpm machine or am I misremembering the > one I had ages ago, kind of a "diamond" shaped case IIRC > <:::::::::> It's 8086 based and runs Xenix. Yes, the case looks like a flat diamond from the front (photos on my site). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 05:04:46 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:04:46 +0000 Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640611090304o6f9a4be3s19978ceaf1e28321@mail.gmail.com> On 09/11/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 9/11/06 00:19, "9000 VAX" wrote: > > > The computer side is 15 pin femail D shape connector. The other side has GRB > > connectors and one 4pin telephone style port which might be a keyboard port. > > $5 shipping if you are in the US. Dirty, but no physical damage is observed. > > Not tested and I don't know what system it was used with. See attached > > photo. > > Of course, the mail system running the list strips out any attachments, but > that cable is the colour video cable for the Rainbow and quite possibly the > Pro series as well..... > > -- Could also be a Vaxstation monitor cable, are they the same ?. What is the model number of the cable. Dan > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Nov 9 05:48:58 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 12:48:58 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <45525E14.3070808@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Don wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: woensdag 8 november 2006 23:46 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on > > Jay West wrote: > > Henk wrote... > >> I tried the suggestion from Don with the M9302 in the last slot > >> of the 11/44 backplane. To my surprise, when you hit ^P, the > >> system prints a new "(Program)" line and the cursor (_) moves > >> to the next line. > >> So, now I am thinking ... a wrong/dead terminator on the > >> RL02 drive, can it have such an effect that through the RL11 > >> controller the bus hangs?! > > IF you changed the dipswitches on the UBI board as I mentioned > > in my > > previous email, AND you get the same response as above > > (^P gives another (program) display)... then I bet your front > > panel board (slot 1AB) or your MFM board is toasty. > > ^P should toggle the console mode between talking to the > 11/44 serial port (program) and the front panel microcontroller > (>>> prompt). > If ^P never comes back with a >>> prompt then as Jay said > something is funky with your MFM module. IIRC if you put the > front panel switch to the locked position if forces 'program' > mode and ^P is ignored, all characters go to the 11/44. Yes, that is in the manual. I have the front panel switch on "LOCAL". Am I correct that the messages "(Console V3.40C)", "(Program)", come from a different source than the ">>>" prompt? If the first 2 mesages also come from the MFM module, then why can't the prompt come from there? If all 3 messages come from the MFM, I would say that the MFM is not toast ... Can some hardware problem hold the ">>>", but let the initial two messages get out? - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From asholz at topinform.de Thu Nov 9 05:53:47 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 12:53:47 +0100 Subject: Posting frpm 2003 Gould Biomation K-105D Logic Analyzer Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455316CB.7050604@topinform.de> Where to get these manuals and is there any progress in making replacement pods? Andreas >> I have a Tek 1230 which I was lucky enough to get some >> pods with. I had another one w/o pods and GOOD LUCK on >> getting schematics, etc on this stuff - it's a "black >> art" proprietary sort of thing. >> > > I don't hink that's the real problem. At the time of the Gould K100/K105, > both Gould and Tektronix did publish full service manuals for their > instruments, complete with schematics (I have the schematics for the > K100D, and I used a similar-vintage Tekky which had a similar manual). > > Heck, Tektronix even published a service manual for the pod. > > The problem is that the pods did contain custom circuitry, often as > ceramic hybrid circuits. And the 'service' was to replace a defective > hybrid. Needless to say, these hybrids are now unobtainable (although the > manuals are useful for working out kludges to replace them!). > > -tony > > > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Nov 9 03:21:23 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:21:23 +0000 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:04:23 EST." <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200611090921.JAA30917@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Brad Parker said: > I would be interested to hear about other languages people used on > pdp-11's however :-) I've been playing with FIG-Forth on my 11/73. I've been able to resurrect some code which originally ran on my TRS-80 circa 1979. Good fun. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Nov 9 03:13:50 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:13:50 +0000 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:20:45 EST." <20061108202048.80321A3F@fep7.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <200611090913.JAA30902@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Charles Fox said: > At 05:30 AM 11/8/2006, you wrote: > > >I wonder if there were any electrically-operated semaphore stations > >around which pre-date wired telegraphy? Most countries had networks > >of optical semaphores which could of course route a message (the > >original idea seems to have cropped up in the 1600's) - but to my > >knowledge they were all manual and only operable in daylight, > >despite electricity being available long before the last ones closed > >(mid 1800's I think). However it seems strange if the transition was > >made straight to wired telegraphy with no intermediate system using > >electric light. > > > >cheers > > > >Jules > > Didn't the Indians use smoke signals? Also, I believe I > have read that in the middle ages in Europe they used bonfires to signal. The Romans used flaming torches and simple water-clocks, but they're not electrical. I think electric light sgnalling had to wait for the light bulb, first working examples 1860 or so, but carbon arc lamps were somewhat earlier, I think. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 08:16:40 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:16:40 -0500 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: <129897E2-9FC9-4103-BD99-92866207F625@neurotica.com> References: <129897E2-9FC9-4103-BD99-92866207F625@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45533848.1070601@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > From 1994 (or so) through 1997, I ran two DECstation-3100s in > production roles on my home network; one as a name server and one as a > mail server handling several medium-volume lists. Around the same time > I used a pair of VAXstation-3100/38 machines in production doing the > same things at an ISP in NJ. All four machines were running NetBSD. > They barely broke a sweat under the load, and had a 100% reliability > record for the nearly three years that they were running. I *still* use a DECstation 5000/260 as my DNS server and backup mailserver today. The machine (200MHz R4400, if memory serves) is reasonably quick. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 08:19:43 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:19:43 -0500 Subject: SN94281 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Do you have any SN94281 or know where I might acquire them I need a fist > full. Thank You There is at least one up on Ebay right now. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 9 08:32:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:32:36 -0600 Subject: ra81's are irking me References: <001201c703ca$f4bcf5d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <011001c7040b$e84cd810$6700a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > There is (AFAIK) only one type of SDI cable and you need an odd number > of them > between drive and controller. Typically you have three: controller to > system cab bulkhead (internal cable), system cab to drive cab (external) > and drive cab bulkhead to drive (internal). Understood, but here's the wrinkle that confuses me... SOME of my ra81 drives have a cable inside the drive that goes from the personality card to a block on the back of the drive that presents an AB port on the back of the drive. SOME of my ra81 drives have a cable inside the drive that connects to the personality card and goes all the way out the back of the drive a few feet with connectors on the end. So on those drives there is no "port" on the back of the drive. In the case of the first style drive, does that internal to back of the drive bulkhead count as one of the 3? Or are you supposed to have 3 from there out (back of drive to cabinet bulkhead, then drive cabinet bulkhead to cpu cabinet bulkhead, then cpu cabinetn bulkhead to uda50)? I'm not sure if the two styles of drive cabling count differently for an odd number of cables. > Another source of confusion (although probably not here) is that > although > there are two ports (A & B) only one is active at a time and switching > between them takes a second (or two). Understood already :) Thanks! Jay From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Nov 9 10:02:10 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:02:10 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4552A477.6020302@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I did the mod Tony spoke of to mine about 2 years ago and have had no problems. According to several different books, all original IBM XT boards have socketed RAM. Are you SURE this is an XT board, and not a PC board? I apologize for the earlier message by the way, I misread that your board was unpopulated. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Hartman Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:46 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... I'll take a look. But I think all four rows are soldered in. Thanks!!! Al > If it's an IBM XT mainboard, there's an easy way to do this (and not use > up any expansion slots). > > Put 41256 chips in banks 0 and 1, and 4164s in banks 2 and 3 on the > mainboard. Put a 74S158 (or 74F158) multiplexer chip in the emptu socket > at the front right, pointing the same way as the chips around it. Set the > DIP switches for 256K RAM, and solder a jumper wire between pads E1 and E2. > > That's it. You have a 640K XT mainboard. > > -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 9 10:15:54 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:15:54 +0100 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers In-Reply-To: <129897E2-9FC9-4103-BD99-92866207F625@neurotica.com> References: <129897E2-9FC9-4103-BD99-92866207F625@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20061109171554.0e5cae22@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:56:12 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > From 1994 (or so) through 1997, I ran two DECstation-3100s in > production roles on my home network; one as a name server and one as > a mail server handling several medium-volume list Primary DNS for unixag-kl.fh-kl.de is a Sun SPARCstation 1 running NetBSD. It does this job for at least six years now. I see no need to change anything beside the occasional OS update for security reasons. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 9 10:20:11 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:20:11 -0600 Subject: RA81 cable issue References: <001201c703ca$f4bcf5d0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <011001c7040b$e84cd810$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <002701c7041a$ef7b6250$6700a8c0@BILLING> I see now why the number of cables is an issue. I rang out the bulkhead connectors and they aren't straight through in the sense that pin1 on one side doesn't go to pin1 on the other side. It presents a mirror image of the lines on the other side of the connector - in other words the pins truly are "straight through", not in the numbering sense. As a result, I'm sure it DOES matter how many cables you have (or another way of looking at it, it matters how many bulkhead connectors you go through). I don't know if the device is expecting a mirror image end to end or a "straight through" end to end. But obviously the number of bulkhead connectors you go through affects which order the pins show up on the far end. So with regard to the last cable inside the drive sometimes coming out of the drive as a long cable and sometimes ending as a connector on the back of the drive... I hooked it up the way that made sense to me based on the above and diags didn't see the drive. I inserted an additional bulkhead connector and cable and voila - diags see the drive now. This problem was exacerbated by the fact that port A on my drive doesn't work, only port B does. This made the cabling issue seem more mystifying. Interestingly enough, the way I originally hooked it up is exactly how it is pictured in the manuals. But I had to add an extra cable/bulkhead connector for the controller to see the drive. Thanks for all the input folks. I'm not out of the woods yet though, the drive still has various problems but I'll address them one at a time. Jay West From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 9 09:37:08 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:37:08 -0600 Subject: Spending $$$ on classic hardware (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <200611090430.kA94UTQJ012223@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611090430.kA94UTQJ012223@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:30 -0600 11/8/06, Ethan wrote: >$600 for an RL8A in the mid '80s, $400 for a KT24 (to run 2BSD), over >$1000 for a PDP-8/S, $800 for a SPARC1 in the early 90s... > >Guilty, guilty, guilty. $800 for a pile of NeXT gear, because it included a NeXTDimension card. Still working on restoring, equipping, and distributing the slabs, which has cost hundreds more dollars so far. $800 for a NeXT cube, but at the time that wasn't "classic". I'm not quite sure how to count the gas, storage space, etc. over the years, but that might be substantial. Still a cheap hobby, compared to many things. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 9 10:49:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:49:03 -0500 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Chris M wrote: > I had thought there were more lines of code written > in Cobol then in any other language (up until a > certain point anyway, maybe ~2000 A.D). All that > business stuph running on Big Blue iron and whatnot. "Stuph"? There are pills for that now, you know. > Wasn't Smalltalk the first OO language? I conversed > with a dude who did some work w/another early OO > language, Modula-2. He wrote a BBS program for a '286 > utilizing hi-performance serial cards (many of which > had onboard 80186's) that could handle 6,000 > simultaneous chatters in 256 rooms. Tried to sell it > to GEnie, but they decided on using some mini for the > task. I don't recall Modula-2 being OO...? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 9 10:54:46 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:54:46 -0500 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <48D269F8-CF0E-4586-85FF-90E341CEC2FF@neurotica.com> On Nov 8, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > I'm sure we could go on and on, but if you are interested in a > different > approach, go look at lisp, scheme, ruby and python. Once you master > lisp/scheme (and to some extent, python and ruby), I think you may see > the "glorified PDP-11 assember" comment in a different light. I'd have to agree here. I've done procedural/imperative programming in one language or another for upwards of 30 years now; it's how my mind works...and I've been studying Lisp a LOT recently. It's difficult to wrap my brain around, but it's expanding my mind quite a bit. It is making me think of C (which is my primary language) in different ways, which is an interesting and unexpected side effect. > I would be interested to hear about other languages people used on > pdp-11's however :-) I did a lot of development in BASIC-Plus and BP2 years ago. I'm not a fan of BASIC, but BP and BP2 are damn powerful IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 11:15:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:15:34 -0800 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <48D269F8-CF0E-4586-85FF-90E341CEC2FF@neurotica.com> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <48D269F8-CF0E-4586-85FF-90E341CEC2FF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4552F1B6.16264.A6F2B9B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 11:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 8, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > > I'm sure we could go on and on, but if you are interested in a > > different > > approach, go look at lisp, scheme, ruby and python. Once you master > > lisp/scheme (and to some extent, python and ruby), I think you may see > > the "glorified PDP-11 assember" comment in a different light. ...and the same goes for other general-purpose languages after you've used a few special-purpose ones, such as Simscript, GPSS or Prolog. After getting your mind around the way these *don't* work, the standard languages look remarkably similar to one another. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 11:54:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 10:54:58 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Nov 2006 11:54:44 -0800. <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061108115207.N80072 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > example: > I want to type a grocery list > start a RS M100, Coco, M1, Apple][, Osborn, N*, and a "modern" machine. > I can be finished typing, and printing before the "modern" machine has > finished booting. This isn't even an example that requires an electronic devices. Get out a pad of paper and a pencil and I can be done faster, too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 11:56:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 10:56:43 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Nov 2006 22:20:12 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > COuld you explain why you don't consider me to be 'a single user'? Already did, generally speaking. For the class of people I called 'users' in that post, noone on this mailing list fits the selection criteria. Everyone here knows too much. The people here aren't users, they are experts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Nov 9 12:04:14 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: <4552F1B6.16264.A6F2B9B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <48D269F8-CF0E-4586-85FF-90E341CEC2FF@neurotica.com> <4552F1B6.16264.A6F2B9B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: One of the OS's on the Perq is written in Pascal (POS?) Also VAXELN is basically a real time PASCAL written very close to the VAX hardware. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 12:04:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 10:04:36 -0800 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: References: <20061106233518.87488.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4552FD34.20503.A9C1044@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 11:49, Dave McGuire wrote: > "Stuph"? There are pills for that now, you know. I think "stuph" is related to "1337". :) Cheers, Chuck From ken at seefried.com Thu Nov 9 12:26:51 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 13:26:51 -0500 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: <200611091807.kA9I5xks025118@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611091807.kA9I5xks025118@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061109182651.2120.qmail@seefried.com> From: Dave McGuire >On Nov 6, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Wasn't Smalltalk the first OO language? Nope...Simula circa 1962. Smalltalk was '72 as I recall. > I don't recall Modula-2 being OO...? Depends on how much you torture the definition, but really it's just got a few OO features. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 12:39:20 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:39:20 +0000 Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/11/06 04:50, "Scott Quinn" wrote: > with a valid Hobbyist license). The > rumors I've heard indicate that OSF/1-DIGITAL Unix-Tru64 is "encumbered" and > so is unlikely to ever be freely > released. The GossipNet indicates that this (encumberances and royalty I'm surprised at this since even HP don't own Tru64 any more, haven't they sold it to the Chinese government? Sure I read that somewhere in an interview with one of the Alpha experts. > instead of the VMS program's $0 (or $30 if you want the disk). Sadly, Alpha > died at the end of October and the enthusiast > Tru64 program likely died with it. Both a supplier and one of our salescritters yesterday told me Alpha had been extended for another year but I've not had time to look into it officially. New stock is still available, the rest is marked as Renew. > Ultrix seems to be a slippery beast, though, and pops up from time to time on > the Internet, in both VAX and MIPS forms- look around. And a few of us have 4.2 and 4.4 distro CDs :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 12:41:17 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:41:17 +0000 Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/11/06 10:18, "Tothwolf" wrote: > As I understand it, some of the larger systems I ended up with originally > ran OSF/1, but the OS tapes were tossed out before I got them. I *did* end > up with quite a bit of Tru64 stuff, but I really needed something older... What version? I've got 1.3, 2.x, 4.0b/d/e/g and 5.1a/b. Somewhere in my stash is also T1.0 for MIPS but I'm damned if I can find it..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 12:43:35 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:43:35 +0000 Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: <26c11a640611090304o6f9a4be3s19978ceaf1e28321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/06 11:04, "Dan Williams" wrote: > Could also be a Vaxstation monitor cable, are they the same ?. What is > the model number of the cable. Nope, the VAXstation cables have a keyboard and mouse connector, the 'bow only has the keyboard. Originally the cable would've had a sticky pad on it that allowed you to stick it to the back of the VR241, there was a position for it on the back. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 12:48:36 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:48:36 -0500 Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0611091048w6b2cf05bo102aa784cf7f0e52@mail.gmail.com> I've got a couple copies of OSF/1 if anyone needs anything. I'm not sure what version it is, it's pretty old, though. On 11/9/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 9/11/06 10:18, "Tothwolf" wrote: > > > As I understand it, some of the larger systems I ended up with > originally > > ran OSF/1, but the OS tapes were tossed out before I got them. I *did* > end > > up with quite a bit of Tru64 stuff, but I really needed something > older... > > What version? I've got 1.3, 2.x, 4.0b/d/e/g and 5.1a/b. Somewhere in my > stash is also T1.0 for MIPS but I'm damned if I can find it..... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 12:48:15 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:48:15 +0000 Subject: ra81's are irking me In-Reply-To: <011001c7040b$e84cd810$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 9/11/06 14:32, "Jay West" wrote: > internal to back of the drive bulkhead count as one of the 3? Or are you > supposed to have 3 from there out (back of drive to cabinet bulkhead, then > drive cabinet bulkhead to cpu cabinet bulkhead, then cpu cabinetn bulkhead > to uda50)? I'm not sure if the two styles of drive cabling count differently > for an odd number of cables. I don't know the UDA50 but I'm guessing it's the same as the KDA50, in which case the cable from the KDA50 to cabkit is 1, the SDI cable to the drive bulkhead (or cabinet bulkhead) is 2 then from bulkhead to drive gives you 3. We still have to cable up RA7x/9x drives for testing and we use a disk cab bulkhead to give us the 3rd cable. The cables are physically different too, at least for RA7x/9x drives. It's been a long while since I last looked at the back of an RA81 :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 9 13:23:52 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:23:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 09, 2006 06:39:20 PM Message-ID: <200611091923.kA9JNqXi031306@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm surprised at this since even HP don't own Tru64 any more, haven't they > sold it to the Chinese government? Sure I read that somewhere in an > interview with one of the Alpha experts. ?!?! I think you had best check your facts on this one. I've heard nothing to indicate that HP has sold Tru64, and with no knew Alpha chips they'd be hard pressed to find a buyer. > > instead of the VMS program's $0 (or $30 if you want the disk). Sadly, Alpha > > died at the end of October and the enthusiast > > Tru64 program likely died with it. > > Both a supplier and one of our salescritters yesterday told me Alpha had > been extended for another year but I've not had time to look into it > officially. New stock is still available, the rest is marked as Renew. Interesting, I've not seen any word of this in the OpenVMS areas. What does marking as "Renew" mean? Could your suppliers be confusing the fact that HP has said support and parts will be available for a good long time? Zane From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Nov 9 13:37:11 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 19:37:11 -0000 Subject: It feels SOOOO good to run a modern OS on classic computers References: <129897E2-9FC9-4103-BD99-92866207F625@neurotica.com> <20061109171554.0e5cae22@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <00e801c70436$73e6d040$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Dave McGuire wrote: > From 1994 (or so) through 1997, I ran two DECstation-3100s in > production roles on my home network; one as a name server and one as > a mail server handling several medium-volume list Primary DNS for unixag-kl.fh-kl.de is a Sun SPARCstation 1 running NetBSD. It does this job for at least six years now. I see no need to change anything beside the occasional OS update for security reasons. -- My home ftp server is still a VAXstation 3100, it performs the task very well, and requires very little intervention. I'm considering running a webserver on either that machine, or a similar one (my site is low traffic). The ftp machine runs VMS7.3 under a hobbyist license. Jim. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 9 13:38:52 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 19:38:52 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems (cctech Digest, Vol 39, Issue 11 9/11/2006) In-Reply-To: <200611081938.kA8JcCek001324@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611081938.kA8JcCek001324@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <157B466E-B970-41F6-8250-218CEC0691A1@microspot.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: On 8 Nov, 2006, at 19:38, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > If you are interested, I could probably get you one of these when > they're > available > > http://bitsavers.org/tools/wizl/tapewizl/ > > Paul Pierce built something similar to what you did for recovering > 7-track > data, and discovered that you really need to recover the data using > analog > techniques to get any reliability. > > http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/proj.html > > Thanks for the offer. I will see how we get on using the original hardware first. The decks have ten tracks so I guess I would need two of them. Each frame contains 4 bits of data and six error correction bits so I am hopeful that the original hardware, after recalibration etc, will be able to read almost all of the data, and where we can't, at least know which frames have errors in them. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 9 13:02:59 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:02:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spending $$$ on classic hardware (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Nov 09, 2006 09:37:08 AM Message-ID: <200611091902.kA9J2x36029586@onyx.spiritone.com> > $800 for a NeXT cube, but at the time that wasn't "classic". I have to wonder how on a thread like this you count systems such as this. I'm guessing you purchased that system for real work, and not to play, sort of like the pair of XP1000's I purchased a few months ago for running OpenVMS on. Though I waited long enough I was able to pick them up for about $200 each, and just the cards in one of them was worth more than that. > I'm not quite sure how to count the gas, storage space, etc. over the > years, but that might be substantial. > > Still a cheap hobby, compared to many things. Storage space is where this hobby can really get you in the long run. I've spent more on storing the junk than I have on the junk itself. Still most of my stuff is slowly going to the History Resource Center I'm involved in. So far this year I've donated over 700 computer books (that doesn't count all the magazines), and we haven't started to figure out how to handle all the comptuer hardware that will eventually be donated. Of course then there are my other hobbies, it's hard to say which one has cost me more over the years. Worse, I've yet to find a hobby which doesn't become a storage problem after a while :^( Even if the core of the hobby isn't a storage problem, the things associated with it tend to become one. Zane From spc at conman.org Thu Nov 9 14:06:01 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:06:01 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <4551B812.3000603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> <4551B812.3000603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061109200601.GA545@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > Sadly UNIX is going the way of Windows - you get given what comes with an > app, and never mind if you never use 90% of the functionality. OK, that's > an unfair percentage - but I bet that 30% of my most-used apps consist of > junk code which I don't actually need. And that's just the visual cruft > that I know about; I bet there's a lot more under the covers because my > apps either contain functionality also provided by some of the libraries > which they reference, or they require a library which provides extra > services not needed by my system. Just try figuring out the absolute minimum dependencies of a modern application though. For instance, I use Cacti [1] and I *have* installed that by hand but man, it's a real pain. Cacti requires the use of RRDTool [2] which itself required a few libraries for manipulating JPEGs, PNGs, and GIFs, along with a free font support system. Cacti also requires MySQL [3] so there's *that* app, and SNMP so you can't forget that base of utilties/library. Cacti, being written in PHP, requires *that* along with a number of PHP modules (for talking with MySQL, integration with GD, integration with SNMP and to see the results, you need Apache with PHP support. Oh, and cron. Can't forget cron, which runs a PHP script every five minutes to poll the devices being monitored. And I've yet to figure out what's required to get USB block storage devices supported under Linux [4]. -spc (Who has more experience with Cobalt RaQs than he cares to admit) [1] Network monitoring tool that uses SNMP to make pretty graphs. [2] A suit of programs/library that is used to store data from a time series in a fixed-length file (as the data gets older, it gets resampled into larger time slices). [3] A monster of a program, but while huge, it's pretty easy to compile and install (and yes, I've done that too, since pre-built binaries for one of the architectures we have are hard to come by). [4] I found it easier to reinstall Linux to get that support than to try to figure out how to get it working myself. When I first installed the system, I didn't include USB support since I didn't need it on the server. A couple of years later though, and our backups are done to an external harddrive connected via USB. It was quicker for me to reinstall the OS than to divine the arcane incantations. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 14:07:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 13:07:11 -0700 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Nov 2006 13:26:51 -0500. <20061109182651.2120.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20061109182651.2120.qmail at seefried.com>, "Ken Seefried" writes: > > I don't recall Modula-2 being OO...? > > Depends on how much you torture the definition, but really it's just got a > few OO features. IIRC: encapsulation and information hiding, but not polymorphism or inheritence. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 9 15:03:29 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:03:29 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 39, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <200611081938.kA8Jcdeh001401@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611081938.kA8Jcdeh001401@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 8 Nov, 2006, at 19:38, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Yes, that is infact, the Apple Dot Matrix Printer (aka ADMP) which is > identical to the ImageWriter, except that it works over a VIA 6522 > parallel port instead of the serial port that the ImageWriter uses. > They are all versions of the C. Itoh 8510. I'm not familiar with the > DEC LA50, but it's very likely that, it too, is a C. Itoh. My brother has a couple of these, I had both connected up to an Apple ///, which acted as a cash register in my father's ironmongery shop. One was for printing customer receipts and one for printing bar code labels. The computer had an old till drawer attached and a one bit output from the Apple /// operated a solenoid to open the drawer. There was a bar code reader for the Apple ][ which I reverse engineered the software for to made it work on the Apple ///, it just had a one bit input and lots of clever timing code, interrupt driven on my version if I remember correctly. I translated the whole lot for Lisa (while had one or two parallel cards), and the software was definitely interrupt driven there. > > The Inkjet printer for the Lisa is the Canon PJ 1080A. I wish I had > some real docs for this printer, but I don't. I had one of these too but it seems I put the manual back in the box with the printer, which has of course been chucked. Nearly all the other printers and plotters I've had on loan in the 80s and 90s (for writing drivers for) I managed to hang on to the manuals, but the Cannon (which we had to buy) is not with them. > Lisa's LisaDraw routines > (later rewritten in 68000 assembly and ported to the Mac and > renamed as > QuickDraw) do support color, I am fairly sure it was called QuickDraw on the Lisa as well. I think I still have two really thick binders for the Lisa programming environment somewhere. I remember writing my own code to do pull down menus in QuickDraw, CopyBits-ing the pixels the menu was going to cover up to an offscreen buffer, bringing up the menu, highlighting the items as the cursor went over them and reinstating the pixels after the cursor was released. Why Apple did not make these routines available I don't know. I chucked a lot of code away when we moved over to Macintosh. Most of the early Mac data structures were handle based but QuickDraw's GrafPorts remained pointer based right through to core graphics and Cocoa. > although its display is 1 bit black and white, > so, if you print a graphic that has color on this printer, you'll > get color. > I believe these were 16 colors, so 4 bit. There were just eight predefined colour names, and these mapped onto constants which were masks in both RGB and CMYK colour spaces. You could assign the foreground(paint,fill etc) or background (erase) patterns to any one of the eight colours. > > There was also a Daisywheel printer for the Lisa too, which was very > interesting, since it supposedly could also print graphics too > according > to the advertisements. I can imagine that it must have used a single > period character to poke dots, so it must have been super slow. I > couldn't find any real docs for it however. > Not practical for graphics. I remember seeing a daisywheel doing inverse text, bashing away with the vertical bar and then using the erase part of the ribbon to print the white text. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 15:07:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:07:21 -0700 Subject: postage stamps with computers or on computing? Message-ID: Does anyone here collect stamps and has amassed a collection by theme on computing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 15:10:56 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 16:10:56 -0500 Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640611090304o6f9a4be3s19978ceaf1e28321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 9/11/06 11:04, "Dan Williams" wrote: > > > Could also be a Vaxstation monitor cable, are they the same ?. What is > > the model number of the cable. > > Nope, the VAXstation cables have a keyboard and mouse connector, the 'bow > only has the keyboard. Originally the cable would've had a sticky pad on > it > that allowed you to stick it to the back of the VR241, there was a > position > for it on the back. Right, the cable I talked has the sticky pad on the monitor side pad. It is interesting to find out that the pad is still in its original unused shape. vax, 9000 -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 15:12:01 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:12:01 -0500 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455399A1.20903@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <20061109182651.2120.qmail at seefried.com>, > "Ken Seefried" writes: > >>> I don't recall Modula-2 being OO...? >> Depends on how much you torture the definition, but really it's just got a >> few OO features. > > IIRC: encapsulation and information hiding, but not polymorphism or > inheritence. What about Modula-3? My favorite language has always been Standard-ML. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 15:14:23 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 21:14:23 +0000 Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: <200611091923.kA9JNqXi031306@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/06 19:23, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > ?!?! I think you had best check your facts on this one. I've heard nothing > to indicate that HP has sold Tru64, and with no knew Alpha chips they'd be > hard pressed to find a buyer. http://www.inquirerinside.com/Default.aspx?article=4266 Obviously not a guarantee of 100% FACT but it's out there. This wasn't the source of the rumour I remembered but a quick google turned it up. The source was an interview with someone who was big on Alpha before leaving Hpaq, wish I could remember his name! > Interesting, I've not seen any word of this in the OpenVMS areas. What does > marking as "Renew" mean? Could your suppliers be confusing the fact that HP > has said support and parts will be available for a good long time? No, renew in the proliant world means refurbished or old stock product, I guess in the Alpha world it means it's not 'new' any more since the last order date has passed so the marque is now 'old'. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 15:19:02 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:19:02 -0500 Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640611090304o6f9a4be3s19978ceaf1e28321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45539B46.4070308@gmail.com> 9000 VAX wrote: >> Nope, the VAXstation cables have a keyboard and mouse connector, the 'bow >> only has the keyboard. Originally the cable would've had a sticky pad on >> it >> that allowed you to stick it to the back of the VR241, there was a >> position >> for it on the back. > > > Right, the cable I talked has the sticky pad on the monitor side pad. It is > interesting to find out that the pad is still in its original unused shape. I've never found one with the original pad, but I've attached replacement pads to some. Peace... Sridhar From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Nov 9 15:24:02 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 22:24:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I am still wondering if the messages "(Console V3.40C)", "(Program)", and the prompt ">>>" come from the same source ... As I don't have much clues, I decided to swap the MFM board (M7096). No luck, the symptoms are the same. Then I figured, if you can not halt the CPU, that must be "control". So, first I placed the original MFM board back in and the swapped the CTRL board (M7095). There is some progress, after I enter ^P, I get the response "(Program)" and the the prompt ">>>" ! I did the T and the E command, but for T/E and D commands I get "?CP halt". OK, makes sense ... but the H command gives the response "?Failed to halt". The RUN light remains on. So CTRL *seems* to be a partial solution. Any thoughts ? thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 15:29:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:29:10 -0700 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:12:01 -0500. <455399A1.20903@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <455399A1.20903 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > What about Modula-3? Never heard of it until you mentioned it. The wikipedia page starts off by saying "modula-3 is a now little-used programming language..." > My favorite language has always been Standard-ML. SML is nice, but it falls down in the real world when you need to interact with stuff that isn't written in SML. Maybe things have changed since I learned it ca. 1990, but back then it was an ivory tower theoretician's wet dream and a pragmatic programmer's nightmare. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 15:30:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:30:20 -0700 Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Nov 2006 21:14:23 +0000. Message-ID: In article , Adrian Graham writes: > http://www.inquirerinside.com [...] I wouldn't trust anything I read on that site based on the things that they've said about technologies where I know better than them what's going on. They are literally a tech. tabloid. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 9 15:34:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061109133222.G42840@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Julian Wolfe wrote: > According to several different books, all original IBM XT boards have > socketed RAM. > Are you SURE this is an XT board, and not a PC board? All IBM PC an XT boards had the first row of RAM soldered in. The other three rows were sockets. > I apologize for the earlier message by the way, I misread that your board > was unpopulated. OP has a RAM daughter-board that is unsocketed, and recalls his motherboard as being all soldered. (Therefore, NOT IBM XT) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 9 15:45:37 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <20061109044404.88838.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061109044404.88838.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061109134442.A42840@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > goofy question, but what sounds easier, a scsi or > cflash type interface for a 2K? There probably are any > # of scsi designs that could be modified. If you are just trying to connect a ZIP drive to a T2K, why not use a parallel port model? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 9 15:46:42 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:46:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <0c2901c703c0$066ed740$0501a8c0@liberator> References: <0c2901c703c0$066ed740$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <20061109134559.I42840@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Geoff Reed wrote: > Thank you, it was a 580 I had.... I must be developing a bad sector in my > file allocation tables :) Did ANY OS for the 580 have a "File Allocation Table"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 9 15:50:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:50:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <1163054364.2911.90.camel@linux.site> References: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> <1162969837.2911.66.camel@linux.site> <4551CB1B.5060405@arachelian.com> <1163054364.2911.90.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061109134845.J42840@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Apple sued Microsoft over the fact that Windows (as claimed by > Apple) had stolen the Macintosh (or Lisa) interface. Bill Gate's > defense was, when it was boiled down, that both Apple and Microsoft had > stolen the interface from Xerox. Upon hearing that, Xerox filed suit > against Apple in the middle of the Apple vs. Microsoft trial. In > typical Xerox fashion, they filed about two weeks past the deadline. > Their lack of business acumen in the computer field ensured that they > didn't really profit from some of the finest human engineering ever > done. If there WAS an agreement about the technology between Xerox and > Apple, why did they sue them for taking it? Maybe just to blow Apple's case in the Apple V Microsoft trial? (doesn't even matter if it's too late!) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Nov 9 15:54:05 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 13:54:05 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > I am still wondering if the messages "(Console V3.40C)", "(Program)", > and the prompt ">>>" come from the same source ... > As I don't have much clues, I decided to swap the MFM board (M7096). > No luck, the symptoms are the same. > > Then I figured, if you can not halt the CPU, that must be "control". > So, first I placed the original MFM board back in and the swapped the > CTRL board (M7095). > There is some progress, after I enter ^P, I get the response "(Program)" > and the the prompt ">>>" ! > I did the T and the E command, but for T/E and D commands I get "?CP halt". > OK, makes sense ... but the H command gives the response "?Failed to halt". > The RUN light remains on. > So CTRL *seems* to be a partial solution. Any thoughts ? The above behavior of the console now appears to be normal (^P gets you to the >>> prompt; trying to do T/E with the CPU in 'run' mode gets you the ?CP halt error, indicating you must halt the cpu via H before running these commands). Now when you give the H command the CPU does not appear to halt. For my 11/34 and 11/44 I found that when I first got them they would become 'mechanically' unreliable if I let them sit without jiggling boards around for more than a couple of months. Finally I broke down and bought a contact cleaner package from CAIG Labs (DeoxIT) and went over all the gold fingers on each of the boards. I have not seen a problem since then; the systems have been in place for almost 9 mos without any board reseating done. I had similar problems with my PDP-8m and the over-the-top connectors (really the same DEC backplane connector) on omnibus modules. I found several instances where some contacts had developed high resistance (50-100ohm) vs the normal sub one ohm. I had suspected bad logic, but it was really just a high resistance connection (which old TTL just does not tolerate very well, due to reasonably high I/O current). I suspected I had bad boards in my 8m EAE, but in reality all the logic turned out to be fully functional, it was just bad connections. I know back at DEC when we had a unibus CPU problem, the first thing we almost always did was pull the boards, run the trusty eraser up and down the fingers, and then seat/reseat the boards a couple of times. This invariably worked. Just a thought. From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 9 15:55:49 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:55:49 -0500 Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <20061109134442.A42840@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <019501c70449$d1a90ff0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Two issues to consider: 1. parallel port connector (T2K uses a DIP header -- need to make special cable). 2. software (T2K ended with DOS 2.11.xx -- forget exact number). You would need to check minimum required version for Iomega guest.exe program. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 4:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Re: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > goofy question, but what sounds easier, a scsi or > cflash type interface for a 2K? There probably are any > # of scsi designs that could be modified. If you are just trying to connect a ZIP drive to a T2K, why not use a parallel port model? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 9 16:04:32 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:32 +0000 Subject: old DEC software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/11/06 21:30, "Richard" wrote: > I wouldn't trust anything I read on that site based on the things that > they've said about technologies where I know better than them what's > going on. They are literally a tech. tabloid. If you'd read further into my message you'd have seen that I said that that wasn't where I'd got my info from but the first thing a google search turned up. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 16:13:26 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:13:26 +1300 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 11/10/06, Don North wrote: > I know back at DEC when we had a unibus CPU problem, the first thing we > almost always did was pull the boards, run the trusty eraser up and down > the fingers, and then seat/reseat the boards a couple of times. This > invariably worked. When I did support for Unibus and Qbus COMBOARDs, our first recommendation to our customers with hardware problems was to reseat the COMBOARD. That took care of 90%+ of calls (and we didn't have to ship replacement hardware). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 16:19:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:19:01 -0800 Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <20061109134442.A42840@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061109044404.88838.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <20061109134442.A42840@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <455338D5.9128.B84FCAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 13:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you are just trying to connect a ZIP drive to a T2K, why not use a > parallel port model? Is a T2K parallel port hardware-compatible with a PeeCee's? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 16:33:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:33:32 +1300 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <1163056205.2911.107.camel@linux.site> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1163056205.2911.107.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On 11/9/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > I would be interested to hear about other languages people used on > > pdp-11's however :-) > > I've got a weird one: MUMPS. It's kind of a mutant > OS/DB/programming language. It allows all sorts of stuff, including > self-modifying code. It's GREAT on list manipulations, and truly horrid > at any kind of math. It was originally designed to deal with patient > records for hospitals, and smells a lot like BASIC. Oh, yeah... wierd is the best word for it. > Anyway, Brad, is that > weird enough for you? I used it on PDP 11/23 and PDP 11/45 machines. I was working at a small shop that did PCs and PDP-11s in 1988... we had a customer bring in a MicroPDP-11/53 for a disk upgrade. We were all ready for it until we turned it on and found out it was running MUMPS. We did eventually upgrade the disk for the customer, but it took a lot longer to puzzle out how to do it (I think my boss was expecting RT-11 or MicroRSX). I never programmed a MUMPS system, but my recollection of the disk upgrade was that it was all menu driven, and there was no (obvious) way to drop to a command line. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 16:56:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 22:56:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061109004233.28197.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 8, 6 04:42:33 pm Message-ID: > I read something in an early BYTE stating that as > time went on, the dip switches on the pc's mobo had > little consequence on the systems ability to determine > the amount of ram installed. Am I in error to state > that the dip switches are read by code? Perhaps > someone can confirm, deny, elaborate, denounce... Yes, the DIP switch settings can be read in software, and for most of the switches, all the affect is the value read by the software. But IIRC the memory size swtiches are also wired to the memory address decoder PROM, and will thereforee control the address range where the mainboard memory data buffers are enabled, etc. In othor words, if you only have (say) 64K on the mainaboard, you can add memory up to 640K on expansion cards _but_ you'd better set the DIP switches on the maiboard correctly or you'll end up with a bus contention (beteen the buffers on your memory expansion card and the mainboard data buffer) for, say, the addtress range 64K -- (256K-1). Incidentally, that address decoder PROM contains 4 addressing tables. IIRC, in som order, they are : 256K (with 64K*1 chips in all 4 banks) 640K (with 256K*1 chips in banks 0 and 1, 64K*1 in banks 2 and 3) 64K (with 16K*1 single-rail (4816s) in all banks) 512K (with 12kK*1 chips in all banks). The 2 DIP switches basically select how many of the banks will be used. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 17:00:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:00:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4552A396.5030502@yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Nov 8, 6 10:42:14 pm Message-ID: > > I'll have to look. But, I don't think this board has sockets. > > I believe it has 4 banks of soldered in 64k chips. > If this is a real IBM XT mainboard (with 8 slots and no cassette port), that would be most unusual (note that the modification I described only applies to real IBN XT mainboards). But if that is the case, I'd just grab a solder sucker and desolder banks 0 and 1 and fit turned-pin sockets in place of them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 17:03:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:03:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Tape Backup 40SC question In-Reply-To: <541127b3d54b43ec937b26928a9f4cd5@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Nov 8, 6 10:43:52 pm Message-ID: > > > > I've been talking with someone (the gentleman in Canada who has the : A/UX 1.0 media (medium? it's just one tape...)) > about getting his drive operational again (gummed roller). We've > gotten as far as replacing the capstan with a similarly- > sized piece of tubing, and now he's having problems with the tape > coming off the reels (no problems on another DC2000 > (I think) style drive) I'm at a loss (can't see the setup, either). > Any ideas? I've gone over the loose bands problem with him, > and it isn't that. My first thought is the EOT sensor (the optical sensor that detects the hole in the tape). Maybe it's just clogged up with dirt, maybe it's electrically malfunctioning. There's normally an IR LED and phototransistor, one mounted in a block alongside the head, the other at the bottom of the drive (there's a 45 degree mirror in the cartridge). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 17:08:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:08:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 9, 6 08:23:42 am Message-ID: > > On 9/11/06 00:19, "9000 VAX" wrote: > > > The computer side is 15 pin femail D shape connector. The other side has GRB > > connectors and one 4pin telephone style port which might be a keyboard port. > > $5 shipping if you are in the US. Dirty, but no physical damage is observed. > > Not tested and I don't know what system it was used with. See attached > > photo. > > Of course, the mail system running the list strips out any attachments, but > that cable is the colour video cable for the Rainbow and quite possibly the > Pro series as well..... I thought the Rainbow and Pro colour video cables looked the same, but had different wiring (in that the Green BNC connector on the 'Bow cable goes ot the pin on the DA15 used for mono video, on the Pro cable it goes to the pin used for green video). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 17:27:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 9, 6 10:56:43 am Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > COuld you explain why you don't consider me to be 'a single user'? > > Already did, generally speaking. For the class of people I called > 'users' in that post, noone on this mailing list fits the selection > criteria. Everyone here knows too much. The people here aren't > users, they are experts. Ah, OK, you're redefining the terms... To me a 'user' is 'sombody who uses', in this case somebody who uses a computer. I use computers, I even sometimes use them as the designer iotended. Theredore I am a user by my drfinition. And I am certainly not an expert... -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Nov 9 17:31:08 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:31:08 -0600 Subject: Fwd: C-64 for cctalk Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061109173027.0da889a0@localhost> >Subject: C-64 for cctalk >Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:04:37 -0600 >Thread-Topic: C-64 for cctalk >Thread-Index: AccEGMGi6nldNWUoQnSxvF+J8ptvVg== >From: "PETERS, THOMAS \(SBLD\)" >To: >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2006 16:04:37.0936 (UTC) >FILETIME=[C1BB6B00:01C70418] >X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-7.0.0.1433-3.6.1039-14802.003 >X-TM-AS-Result: No--5.457100-0.000000-31 >X-Spambayes-Classification: ham > >[24-Oct-2006] FOUND: NIB Commodore 64C (white case)Sitting on closet >shelf since I can't remember when .Has PS cube plus all cables , etc . >No Monitor or Floppy Drive just Computer. If interested make an offer . >I would like to trade for a New SK-410 socket. Will talk about anything. >Joe Chastain , N4JC via josw at bellsouth dot net . > >http://www.arrl.org/RadiosOnline/ads.html?ordby=&wanted_category=Computers%2FSoftware > > >Thomas M. Peters >ATT LD Sr. Network Services Mgr >N9QQB (6m/2m/70cm) [Bachelors] Nowadays, all the married men live like bachelors, and all the bachelors like married men. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 9 18:13:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 16:13:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <019501c70449$d1a90ff0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <019501c70449$d1a90ff0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061109160957.D49630@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Two issues to consider: > 1. parallel port connector (T2K uses a DIP header -- need to make special > cable). trivial and a LOT less hardware than trying to implement a SCSI card for the T2K Even more ridiculous: howzbout connect a Trantor parallel port SCSI adapter to the T2K parallel port? Then you'd have to do BOTH parts. > 2. software (T2K ended with DOS 2.11.xx -- forget exact number). You would > need to check minimum required version for Iomega guest.exe program. I thought that the ZIP started with 2.00? Software would definitely be needed, either for parallel port, OR SCSI 'course writing an ASPI driver might be better documented than what is needed to talk directly to a ZIP. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 9 18:24:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:24:55 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:27:08 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Ah, OK, you're redefining the terms... Not really. I'm using them in the generally accepted sense. You can be pedantic and nitpicky if you want, but when anyone in the industry refers to users, they are not referring to experts, software engineers, people with computer science degrees, people who collect old weird hardware, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 18:33:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 16:33:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-ot: are zip drives being phased out? In-Reply-To: <019501c70449$d1a90ff0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061110003318.23914.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > If you are just trying to connect a ZIP drive to a > T2K, why not use a > parallel port model? Not such a bad idea when it's brought up, but kind of slow. My first Zip was a scsi, was using alot of Mac stuph back then, and a DEC pizza box which was a marvel for crazed unorthodox interfaces, and the scsi unit never did me no wrong. In fact I found it to be indestructible :o --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Two issues to consider: > > 1. parallel port connector (T2K uses a DIP header -- > need to make special > cable). > 2. software (T2K ended with DOS 2.11.xx -- forget > exact number). You would > need to check minimum required version for Iomega > guest.exe program. In fact, that guest program would have to be torn apart. Yeah, starting to sound not-so-practical. But a scsi port would be an awful nice addition to alot of these old things. The T2K is even a true 16-bitter, so many of the signals, or equivalents of the a 16 bit ISA slot might be found on that 96 pin euro connector. The software part does skeer me worst then the hardware part though :~ Hmmm, if one actually could adapt (or build) a scsi card for the 2K, might you not be closer (in terms of software compatibility) then if you tried to rework the parallel port guest program? Or is their only 1 guest? Uh on 2nd thought: File Contents Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 32768 02-08-99 10:19 ScsiDll.Dll 44126 07-30-98 12:18 GUEST.HLP 1247 10-15-98 12:55 Guest.html 4362 02-09-99 13:13 Guest.Inf 347 08-11-98 09:08 GUEST.INI 760 05-29-98 13:48 GUEST9X.CNT 475136 02-08-99 10:20 GUEST9X.EXE 108089 05-29-98 13:51 GUEST9X.HLP 8608 03-20-97 19:02 ImgDll16.Dll 16384 03-20-97 19:02 ImgDll32.Dll 32210 09-02-98 17:10 GUEST.EXE -------- ------- 724037 11 files I did e-mail the folks who make the serial-cflash interface, to see if THAT software is specific to a vanilla peecee. I doubt it uses any type of standard serial protocols (i.e. Xmodem, Kermit, etc.). Maybe Iomega would be gracious enough to provide their source code... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 18:58:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 16:58:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061110005851.15672.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> > But if that is the case, I'd just grab a solder > sucker and desolder banks > 0 and 1 and fit turned-pin sockets in place of them. > > -tony It occurred to whilst perched atop a big fat rock that placing a circuit board in shallow tray of cool water, component side down would probably eliminate the possibility of smoking a chip while desoldering, with a wick or whatever. Sound reasonable? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:09:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:09:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061110010905.76201.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't recall Modula-2 being OO...? Neither do I. I don't even remember Modula-2. But it was claimed by this person that "it" was oo. I don't know what implementation of the language he was using, but I'll find out. Stay tuned ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 9 19:07:27 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:07:27 -0800 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <20061109134559.I42840@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <11b901c70464$9d307db0$0501a8c0@liberator> Don't know, but it is a way of saying I had a brain fart :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: imaging XENIX disks On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, Geoff Reed wrote: > Thank you, it was a 580 I had.... I must be developing a bad sector in my > file allocation tables :) Did ANY OS for the 580 have a "File Allocation Table"? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:12:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:12:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061110011209.84916.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > IIRC: encapsulation and information hiding, but not > polymorphism or > inheritence. Doesn't the above essentially apply to VB6 also? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:19:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:19:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <4552FD34.20503.A9C1044@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061110011951.60736.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > I think "stuph" is related to "1337". :) Nah, the occasional mispelling is a result of viewing all the goofiness on the net. Kind of rubs off yer know. And in fact, it took me about 30 seconds to figure out that 1337 is leet encoded, as in elite (I guess). I do believe the yahoo "hacker's lounge" had the caption "where the 1337 meet" IINM. Now it makes sense finally. So as you can see I'm not a student of any of that crud. John Allain posted something about peeps (ah there I go again) reverting to older hardware for practical purposes (unlike most of the discussion here ... right?). Alleviating the distractions caused by the web. I think that's what I need to do. Stick with something old. I might feel better. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:22:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:22:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: <20061109182651.2120.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20061110012208.80683.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ken Seefried wrote: > >> Wasn't Smalltalk the first OO language? > > Nope...Simula circa 1962. Smalltalk was '72 as I > recall. Wasn't there a later version of Simula suffixed by -67? So if I wanted to play around with some of this stuph, can I be reasonably certain ALL of these older languages could be had for a peecee? Don't worry, I don't mean a Tandy 2000. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:24:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:24:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <200611091038.kA9Acs6c028209@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20061110012458.93951.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I thought the Altos 586 was a Z-80 cpm machine or > am I misremembering the > > one I had ages ago, kind of a "diamond" shaped > case IIRC > > <:::::::::> > > It's 8086 based and runs Xenix. > Yes, the case looks like a flat diamond from the > front (photos on my site). > > Dave Sorry. I knew something made by Altos had a '186, but it wasn't the 586/686. The 580 was the model with the Z80. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:32:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <11b901c70464$9d307db0$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <20061110013243.45597.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> > On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Did ANY OS for the 580 have a "File Allocation > Table"? It would have to have something like one, no? *scratching head* ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:40:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:40:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinUAE - Amiga emulator Message-ID: <20061110014050.5510.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> I don't actually own an Amiga 2000, but I do have a 600. I didn't check to see if there was an emulator for the 600, but I doubt it's roms would be useful to a 2000's emulator. Regardless, assuming I had the right roms, or wanted to try my 600's...um what do I do? Never used an Amiga at all. And I would like to get my hands on a 1000 and 2000 (an any later models too, but they tend to be expensive). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 19:49:51 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:49:51 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Photo is at http://www.mscpscsi.com/scsicable.jpg vax, 9000 On 11/8/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > DEC P/N 17-02008-02, No physical damage observed. Not tested. Don't know > whether it is DEC specific SCSI cable or a generic one. $5 shipping in the > US. See attached photo. > > vax, 9000 > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 19:50:53 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:50:53 -0500 Subject: free DEC video cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is claimed. The photo is at http://www.mscpscsi.com/videocable.jpg vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 20:12:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:12:10 -0800 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <20061110010905.76201.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <20061110010905.76201.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45536F7A.475.C5A6DF8@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 17:09, Chris M wrote: > Neither do I. I don't even remember Modula-2. But it > was claimed by this person that "it" was oo. I don't > know what implementation of the language he was using, > but I'll find out. Stay tuned ;) There is an ISO OO set of extensions for Modulat-2, as well as Modula- 3 (I don't hink it's ISO, but more a DEC set of object extensions). The main idea behind Modula-2 was modularity (as you'd guess from the name). There is also some nice sugar, like coroutines, monitors and interrupts, as well as bit manipulation. Anyone remember that Logitech (the mice people) used to have quite a Modula-2 operation? Many programmers I knew had a brief dalliance with Pascal (and extended dialects thereof), played with Modula-2 a bit and generally settled down with dirty old C. We hired one of Logitech's compiler people and he never made much of a fuss about doing his work in C instead of Modula-2. Never even tried to sell us on it. Maybe it was having to type ":=" for assignment operations... :) Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 9 20:16:16 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:16:16 -0600 Subject: Free SGI R8k POWER Challenge L (Deskside) (CO) Message-ID: Found this on another list: > >Guys: > >I've got a POWER Challenge L deskside that was given to me a while back. I've got no use for it and will be moving soon. I'd like to get it to someone who will do something with it other than use it as >furniture. > >I have powered it up and did a hinv. It works, at least as far as working goes with no hard disks and no OSs. > >Seems to have six R8000 processors and 512 MB RAM. No drives. Otherwise complete. > >Weighs, I would guess, about 150 lbs. > >Come and get it and it's yours. in Trinidad, Colorado. I can forward messages. R8k fits timewise (1995) and oddness. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 20:22:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:22:40 -0800 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <455371F0.6460.C640C38@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 20:49, 9000 VAX wrote: > > DEC P/N 17-02008-02, No physical damage observed. Not tested. Don't know > > whether it is DEC specific SCSI cable or a generic one. $5 shipping in the > > US. See attached photo. Looks pretty generic to me--wide SCSI to narrow "blue ribbon" connector. I've got a couple and they didn't come from DEC. Why do folks insist on calling this type of connector "Centronics"? I've even hear the "C" word applied to HPIB connectors. Centronics never used the 50 pin version, did they? I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why "Centronics"? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 9 20:25:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:25:44 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061110005851.15672.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <20061110005851.15672.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455372A8.12897.C66DACA@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2006 at 16:58, Chris M wrote: > It occurred to whilst perched atop a big fat rock > that placing a circuit board in shallow tray of cool > water, component side down would probably eliminate > the possibility of smoking a chip while desoldering, > with a wick or whatever. Sound reasonable? Completely unnecessary. Use a good soldering iron (temperature controlled) and a sucker, such as a Soldapullt Sometimes adding a bit of solder to a joint while heating helps conduct heat a bit better. If you've got access to a good desolering station, even better. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 9 20:13:06 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:13:06 -0600 Subject: postage stamps with computers or on computing? References: Message-ID: <004f01c70470$59969ec0$20406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:07 PM Subject: postage stamps with computers or on computing? > Does anyone here collect stamps and has amassed a collection by theme > on computing? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > I have a small collection of about 10 stamps and looking. From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 20:35:14 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:35:14 -0500 Subject: WinUAE - Amiga emulator In-Reply-To: <20061110014050.5510.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061110014050.5510.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not aware of any Amiga model-specific emulators. I use E-UAE, the port of the free {UNIX|Ubiquitous|Universal} Amiga Emulator for UNIX and UNIX-like operating systems which can emulate a variety of different Amiga models depending on the ROM images used. You can obtain ROM images by dumping them from your Amiga, by purchasing them from Amiga Forever [1] or by illicit means. Amiga Forever is more than just ROM images, it's an easy to use emulator targeted at those who are less technically inclined. There are a variety of tutorials on how to install, configure and use E-UAE and UAE on the web and since I don't know anything about your computer, I'll leave you to search for the information you need. As for your 600, have you considered plugging it in, connecting it to a display and turning it on? :) [1] http://www.amigaforever.com/ -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 9 20:49:17 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:49:17 -0600 Subject: ra81 troubleshooting Message-ID: <004a01c70472$d1ce4e90$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Humm I may be out of luck for any SDI drives on my 11/44. I've tested almost all my HDA's and they all do appear to be bad. None pass the spinup diagnostics internal to the drive except one. On the one drive that passes the internal drive diags (both pre and post spinup), it also passes the internal spinup diags in a 30 minute loop. Good... but... If I boot RT11 off an RL02 and do an INIT on DU0 it runs ok. If I do a Squeeze/out:du0: dl0: it does copy all the files. However, periodically during the copy process the ra81 ready light goes off and the fault light goes on. But it doesn't fail... after perhaps 30 seconds the fault light goes off and the ready light goes back on and the copy proceeds. It may do this 3 or 4 times, but it eventually gets through that copy with no errors on the terminal (no RT11 errors). I can then boot RT11 off DU0. But that frequent fault light coming on give me the whillies. So.. I went to the diags. The basic controller diags for UDA50 pass ok, all 3 tests. The disk excerciser runs ok with default values... but the moment I tell it to also write in the customer data area, I start getting errors immediately. The errors say something to the effect of "R/W Ready lost during write". I'm assuming that's bad. But how come it only shows up if I tell it to write in the customer area? Given all the above, I was thinking perhaps I should reformat the drive (not knowing what else to try). The format "diagnostic" has all kind of warnings saying "do NOT run this unless you are positive you need to....". Not being familiar with these drives, I thought I'd ask those "in the know" here if it's really no big deal to run the reformat (preserving factory badspots). I'm just wondering if the format is messed up in the normal data areas of the drive but not in the diagnostic portion. Just out of curiosity, one of the HDAs that doesn't pass diags points to the R/W board mounted on the drive. I was thinking of replacing it, but then is a reformat mandatory? If none of these drives pan out, my /44 will be driveless. I'll have to hunt for some other RAxx drives. Thanks for any advice! Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 9 20:51:38 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:51:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: <455371F0.6460.C640C38@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <455371F0.6460.C640C38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061109184707.C55286@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why do folks insist on calling this type of connector "Centronics"? > I've even hear the "C" word applied to HPIB connectors. Centronics > never used the 50 pin version, did they? > I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X > connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why > "Centronics"? For many people who had never seen a computer until 1979 (TRS-80), Centronics printers were the first places that they saw them. Although business telephone systems had been using them for multi-line phones for quite a while, "Only technicians" ever connected or disconnected those. Might as well ask why ALL D shell connectors are referred to as size B. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Nov 9 23:04:58 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:04:58 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted Message-ID: <4554087A.9060403@hawkmountain.net> Checking to see if anyone out there has any of the following they would be willing to part with... and if so, how much/etc... VT78 (also known as W/T78 Word Terminal if memory serves me correct) DecMate II DecMate III+ PDP8/e PDP8/f PDP11/73, PDP11/83, or PDP11/93 DEC Professional Workstation 380 (PRO-380) or other suitable (not overly LARGE) PDP11 class box for home How bout an XKL TOAD-1 :-) ? -- Curt From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Nov 9 23:10:10 2006 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:10:10 -0800 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <200611082032.kA8KWM4A002767@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> Thanks for the post on VCF - unfortunately I couldn't make it this year. It's hard to believe that you can't get a thread going about VCF on this list. Don't know if that says something about the show, the list or both. In the old days there was a lot of excitement - daily reports, links to pictures, etc. Now, almost nothing. -W > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 07:57:44 -0800 > From: Marvin Johnston > Subject: VCF 9.0 > To: ClassicCmp > Message-ID: <4551FE78.E95A88B2 at rain.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > I haven't seen anything about VCF yet, so thought I would put > down a few comments. > > It was a fun time as usual at VCF, and I met a lot of > interesting people there. I got a chance to put some faces > with names, and that is always a lot of fun. The majority of > my time was spent taking care of my vendor booth, and so I > didn't take a lot of time to spend in other areas. > > One of the neat additions was the kit building workshops. > Several people got their Apple I replica kits signed by Woz. > > It seemed like the number of vendors and exhibitors were > down, but the number of people attending were up. One of the > exhibits I liked was the Apple Lisa. The exhibitor, who goes > by Lisa :), was very knowledgeable and I learned a number of > things from her regarding collecting Lisas. > > For those that don't know me, I do have a perverted sense of > humor. I had brought a Chisholm computer that I think might > be a prototype of the first IBM battery operated portable > (later licensed to Olivetti) to see if anyone knew anything > about it. Evan will hopefully be doing an interview with the > company president, and I mainly brought it for him to see. > But after watching people ignore it, I put a $2000 price tag > on it ... and that got it a little more attention :). But > people still didn't ask about it though they took more notice > of it. And no, I don't think it is worth anywhere near that > much money. > > I was talking to Sellam, and it would have been a good place > to at least mention the Vintage Market Place for > selling/trading/buying/etc. vintage computer stuff. And I > also think this and Eric's listservers should also have been > mentioned. If we are to help build this hobby, it might be a > good idea to let people know where to get more information :). > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 23:12:26 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:12:26 -0600 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <4554087A.9060403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> Hi Curt, I have most of this. Can I call you on my dime? Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:05 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: old DEC gear wanted Checking to see if anyone out there has any of the following they would be willing to part with... and if so, how much/etc... VT78 (also known as W/T78 Word Terminal if memory serves me correct) DecMate II DecMate III+ PDP8/e PDP8/f PDP11/73, PDP11/83, or PDP11/93 DEC Professional Workstation 380 (PRO-380) or other suitable (not overly LARGE) PDP11 class box for home How bout an XKL TOAD-1 :-) ? -- Curt From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 23:14:37 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:14:37 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: claimed. On 11/9/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Photo is at http://www.mscpscsi.com/scsicable.jpg > > vax, 9000 > > On 11/8/06, 9000 VAX < vax9000 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > DEC P/N 17-02008-02, No physical damage observed. Not tested. Don't know > > whether it is DEC specific SCSI cable or a generic one. $5 shipping in the > > US. See attached photo. > > > > vax, 9000 > > > > > From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Nov 9 23:24:02 2006 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:24:02 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 19 In-Reply-To: <200611081436.kA8EaRbw084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a201c70488$7259ce60$6501a8c0@Wayne> If you search Google groups you will see that the first appearance of the term in a post ("lap-top") was in July 1983 in a post by Dan Chernikoff, referring to the TRS-80 model 100. http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro/browse_frm/thread/301dac92a10aa 2f6/814b0c6dd096e119?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#814b0c6dd096e119 To search Lexis while avoiding the tags, limit the search to the body of the article by searching "Date<1985 and body(Laptop or lap-top)". Doing this will get you to a late 1983 ComputerWorld article that begins: Computerworld November 30, 1983 SECTION: Pg. 59 LENGTH: 2498 words HEADLINE: PORTABLE PRODUCTIVITY BYLINE: By William Murto; Murto is vice-president of marketing, Compaq Computer Corp., Houston. BODY: Today's portables can be divided into several descriptive catagories: the handheld units, the lap-top computers, the transportable units and the integrated portables. These machines range in weight from several ounces (the handheld units) to more than 30 pounds (the transportables). The handheld units, just as their name implies, are typically not much larger than a hand calculator and generally run on batteries. They are limited in function and are normally little more than a combination of a hand calculator and data entry terminal. The lap-top computers fit smartly into most briefcases and are considerably more powerful and capable than the handheld types. However, these versions have limited display screens and limited memory. They are also limited by the applications programs they can run. > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:31:27 -0500 > From: "Evan Koblentz" > Subject: Correction to a looooooong ago post! > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <000101c70307$e713d700$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Way back in July 1999, someone wrote thus: > > >>> Byte Magazine first used the term "laptop" in reference to a > >>> production > computer, after viewing the Epson HX-20 at a trade show in > November 1981. <<< > > The original post is here: > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-July/130419.html > .... but it's not true! Recently I looked through all the > Byte issues from that time period and found the reference in > question, which was in the Feb. 1982 issue. In the issue's > main editorial, on page 14, Chris Morgan referred to "...an > intriguing prototype of the Epson HX-20 personal computer... > The beginning of a new trend to what I call 'briefcase' > computers: battery-operated machines that combine portability > with powerful computer features. It's the sort of design > that will appeal to people on the move." > > Byte's earliest use of "laptop" that I could find wasn't > until the Jan. 1984 issue, in an article called > "Portables--1984 and Beyond" by Dave Winer. I contacted Dave > and he said he heard the term from Ester Dyson, but Ester > said she doesn't recall saying it. She did say that > "luggable" was her term, referring to the suitcase-sized > computers. Byte did write about "lap" computers a couple of > times in 1983, but not "laptops" per se. > > I'm bringing this up now because I have seen a few recent web > references which cite the 1999 post as fact. > > Can anyone show me (not just say they remember) a pre-Jan. > 1984 reference to the word "laptop" in the context of > portable computers? > > I searched on Lexis-Nexus but the results were flawed. > Apparently someone tagged all the pre-1984 references to > "mobile" and "portable" computers with the word "laptop" > which may be logical for most searchers but doesn't help me at all. > > - Evan > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:47:42 -0500 > From: Warren Wolfe > Subject: Re: lisadraw > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <1162972062.2911.69.camel at linux.site> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 22:18 -0700, woodelf wrote: > > > > Richard wrote: > > > > > You're not a user. You're a geek. You don't count! ;-) > > > > Umm... Just in HEX do they count! Nerds are binary! > > > Speaking of which... People used to be amazed that I > could count in hex on my fingers. Remember that? 0... 1... > 2 (pardon me, no offense intended)... 3... 4... 5, and so on. > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:54:26 -0500 > From: Warren Wolfe > Subject: Re: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <1162972466.2911.73.camel at linux.site> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Sat, 2006-11-04 at 14:40 -0500, jwhitton wrote: > > > > I agree.., I'm appalled that RS has abandoned the hobbyist. It > > seems to be the trend..., retailers so driven by profit numbers and > > markets that they abandon those who put them in business in > the first > > place. I've started haunting hamfests and buying almost any dip > > package logic I run across. If I needed ANY ordinary 74xx > piece, there > > is no longer any place that it could be purchased where I live. > > *Maybe* as an outrageously priced ECG part from the one or two > > remaining repair shops..., but that's it. Sad...., and it bodes ill > > for the sort of Science Fair / Boy Scout level projects that kids > > might want to do..., oh, wait, I forgot, they've got video > games and > > the Internet.. > > > Hey, it's worse than that. I recall seeing, about a year > ago, an ad for an electronics project SIMULATOR in Windows > software. You build the project, and it pretends to run it, > and does what real components would do, producing a signal on > screen, and as sound, if appropriate. *SIGH* > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:54:11 +0000 > From: Adrian Graham > Subject: Re: lisadraw > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > On 8/11/06 01:37, "Chris M" wrote: > > > Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 for a > > piece of equipment, software, hardware, paraphenalia, > whatever, that > > was at least 15 years old? I want to say 20+, but let's > make it easy. > > And not for work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one > > qualify. oi > > *raises hand* > > I paid a bit more than I was comfortable with for an Acorn > BBC Master Turbo, but it WAS a machine owned by the BBC and > used for the creation of titles and suchlike for the famed > BBC Domesday Project in 1985 and therefore one of less than > 20 produced in that format. Sadly I haven't found anyone yet > who can remember what software it used to run its genlock.... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home > computer collection? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:19:05 +0100 > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D3 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Yesterday evening I had a look at my sick 11/44. > The notes I had kept said that the VT100 displays > "?CP didn't start". I already knew that this is the > typical bus hang condition, so I opened the BA11 box. > I was surprised to see the FP11 board (I did not know > I had that one), but I also saw that the last slot of > the CPU backplane has a G727 ... I remember that in > that quad slot had been the TU80 controller, sure an > NPR device. So, I pulled the G727 and inserted a G7273, > and pushed all other boards firmly into place. > A few boards actually moved a little (say, 1 mm). > > Powering up ... > the 11/44 shows the ">>>" prompt and is responsive, > but I was too lazy to unlock the heads of the RA81 > and tension the motor/spindle belt. The RA81 is the > boot device for the 11/44. The system has an RL02 so I > tried >>>B DL0: but then the 11/44 shows on the VT100 > "no such PROM" (IIRC, or something close like this). > > OK, I was glad not to see "?CP didn't start" anymore, > and I turned off the machine. > Half an hour later I had thought of entering the > boot code for the RL02, so I turned the 11/44 back on. > > However, ... besides the DC ON light, the RUN light > stays ON too. I am sure the RUN light should go OFF. > It does not matter if the switch is in the HALT or > CONT position at power up. > The VT100 only displays: > > (Console V3.40C) > > (Program) > > and nothing more, no ">>>" prompt anymore! > > Also, the FAULT lamp on the RL02 drive stays ON. > In the normal behaviour, the FAULT lamp is OFF, and if > you toggle the switch to the "BOOT" position, the FAULT > lamp will flash ON briefly. > The TK50 (also connected to the 11/44) flashes the red > push button lamp and after a few seconds the red lamp > goes OFF and the green LED goes ON. > Now, in its faulty state the TK50 still behaves the same > when I push the switch to the BOOT position, but the RL02 > drive keeps the FAULT light ON. > > As the FAULT lamp stays ON of the RL02, I am *guessing* > that the 11/44 does not issue a "reset", keeping the CPU > hung, and the RL11 controller ...? > Where do I start? > What are the obvious things in this machine? > Don't read this line Tony. I have 2 spare set 11/44 CPUs. > > thanks for any hints! > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the > use of the addressee and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure > under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof > responsible for delivering this message to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please > notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" > message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:34:12 +0100 > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Subject: RE: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880D4 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Sorry, one follow-up on my own message. > I forgot to mention that I searched the classiccmp archive, > but was not successful. I remember a thread about a voltage > comparator issue on the CIM (M7090), but could not find it. > Perhaps that was on usenet ... I must take a look at the > M7090 electrical diagram! > > - Henk. > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the > use of the addressee and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure > under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof > responsible for delivering this message to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please > notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" > message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:54:16 +0000 > From: Pete Turnbull > Subject: Re: New monitors on old machines > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4551A948.3040103 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: > > >> 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > > > > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the > stairs... do > > they make 4-way switches? > > You mean a two-way switch (single pole, double throw), and > yes there is > a way to have three or more, if you use DPDT switches or a crossover > switch in the middle. Over here, the major manufacturers make > "crossover" or "changeover" light switches for exactly this purpose: > > Conventional use of two two-way (SPDT) switches: > > o-------------o > LIVE --------o--- ---o----------- BULB ------ NEUTRAL > o-------------o > > If one switch is "up" and the other is "down", the light is off > If both switches are "up", the light is on > If both switches are "down", the light is on > > > Actually it's usually wired with one switch the other way up, so the > light is on if one is "up" and the other "down": > > o---. .------o > LIVE --------o--- \/ ---o----------- BULB ------ NEUTRAL > o____/\o______o > > > > Using three (or more) switches: > > o----------o|o----------o > LIVE --------o--- --- ---o----- BULB ---- NEUTRAL > o----------o|o----------o > > ^^^^^^ > crossover switch > connects upper left to upper right (and LL to LR) > or lower left to upper right (and UL to LR) > > If one end switch is "up", and the other is "down", the crossover > switch in the middle can switch current from the upper leg to the > lower, and turn the light on. > > Another layout with a DPDT: > > o--------------.------ > o----------o--- | > LIVE --------o--- : o--------.------------ > o------+ : | | > | : o--------+ | > +---o--- | > o--------------+ > > ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ > a DPDT switch with wiring arranged to switch > current from upper leg to lower leg > ('o's are contacts, '.'s are connections, > ':'s represent the mechanical > linkage between > the poles) > > > You can extend this ad infinitum with additional crossover or > DPDT switches. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 06:55:30 -0500 > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Subject: Re: imaging XENIX disks > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200611081100.kA8B0GEH005230 at hosting.monisys.ca> > > > > I made images of the Xenix disks I have for my Altos > > > with ImageDisk and it worked for me. > > > Oohhh.. which Altos would this be ? I'm looking for Xenix for my > > Altos 886. > > It's a 586 - and unfortunately I don't have a full set of > install media - just a couple of "homemade" disks that I got > with the machine, one of which boots (IIRC). > > > > As I understand it Altos Xenix (for the 886) at least was > quad density > > disks. 80 tracks, double density. Should be able to image > them using > > a 1.2M 5.25" PC floppy as long as software can understand > the format > > (I'd think it should do it anyway). > > ImageDisk has no problem reading/writing 80 track DD on > 1.2M drives. > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: > www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 07:18:35 -0500 > From: Ray Arachelian > Subject: Re: lisadraw > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4551CB1B.5060405 at arachelian.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > > It's too bad, in a way. The effort put into the Lisa was > > gargantuan, and directed very well. On its own, it was a great > > product. It was just the user interface which was > appropriated without > > permission. > I'm not sure that the above is correct. All the historical > sources point to the exact opposite. Steve Jobs gave Xerox a > ton of Apple stock to "sort of open the kimono at Xerox > PARC." It was allowed and well known, and if you read the > stories on folklore.org and compare a Star or an Alto to a > Lisa you'll find there are vast differences in the UI. It > simply wasn't just copied, much less without permission. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0600 > From: John Foust > Subject: Re: lisadraw > To: > Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50 at mail> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; > x-avg-checked=avg-ok-71884434 > > At 01:19 PM 11/7/2006, der Mouse wrote: > >There are at least two PC operating systems that cost $0 and work > >perfectly well on hardware that's available for $0 because > the latest > >bloatware no longer runs tolerably on it. > > I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in > the old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. > Now that the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in > inflation-adjusted > dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. > Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. > > - John > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 29 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:24:10 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4551A23A.7030207 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Re: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? > > hmm, I might if I could be bothered to wait the few minutes > it takes for a web > browser to load on this old beastie :-) > > From the mention of ebay in the URL I'm guessing that it's some > way-overpriced item that can be purchased *far* cheaper > elsewhere, quite > possibly in superior form (faster, more reliable, more flexible etc.). > > At least, that's the usual situation whenever ebay and > puzzlement occur in the > same message :-) > > "It doesn't have to make sense - people will still buy it" > should be ebay's > marketing slogan... > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 30 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:27:24 -0500 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: Re: Someone want to 'splain this one to me? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4551E94C.2070405 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Sorry for harping on an old topic, but this really has me mystified: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320044031900 > > Prices on old new-in-box hardware always tends to get a little wonky. > > Peace... Sridhar > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 31 > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:30:25 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: lisadraw > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4551A3B1.4050706 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Richard wrote: > > In article , > > Al Kossow writes: > > > >> I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing (this is one of the > reasons I'm > >> at the Museum and not a start-up) it is just the way products are > >> built today. > > > > I'll say its a good thing, otherwise a PC with an operating system > > would still cost $10K, instead of $300. > > Of course if every PC cost 10k then buyers would make darn > sure they learned > how to use it properly, rather than the current situation of > buying one and > sticking it on the 'net with no kind of firewall or virus protection. > > Giving complex tools to the masses when they expect to be > able to just jump > right in and use them with no training whatsoever seems like > a pretty insane > plan. > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 19 > ************************************** > From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 9 23:38:26 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:38:26 -0500 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <000001c7048a$729fed30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I think that's partially because Sellam left this list, and partially because some key exhibitors now hang out more often at Erik Klein's forum. Last weekend was my fifth VCF overall and third one in California. The audience was as numerous and vibrant as ever, especially on the first day because of the Apple 30th celebration. For the East 4.0 show next spring, we are * tentatively * planning a Commodore 30th event. Depending on the timing, we might also have (at least) IRC terminals connected to VCF Europa if it's the same weekend, or (if we're really ambitious) live videocasts of the keynotes. -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Smith [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:10 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VCF 9.0 Thanks for the post on VCF - unfortunately I couldn't make it this year. It's hard to believe that you can't get a thread going about VCF on this list. Don't know if that says something about the show, the list or both. In the old days there was a lot of excitement - daily reports, links to pictures, etc. Now, almost nothing. -W > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 07:57:44 -0800 > From: Marvin Johnston > Subject: VCF 9.0 > To: ClassicCmp > Message-ID: <4551FE78.E95A88B2 at rain.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > I haven't seen anything about VCF yet, so thought I would put down a > few comments. > > It was a fun time as usual at VCF, and I met a lot of interesting > people there. I got a chance to put some faces with names, and that is > always a lot of fun. The majority of my time was spent taking care of > my vendor booth, and so I didn't take a lot of time to spend in other > areas. > > One of the neat additions was the kit building workshops. > Several people got their Apple I replica kits signed by Woz. > > It seemed like the number of vendors and exhibitors were down, but the > number of people attending were up. One of the exhibits I liked was > the Apple Lisa. The exhibitor, who goes by Lisa :), was very > knowledgeable and I learned a number of things from her regarding > collecting Lisas. > > For those that don't know me, I do have a perverted sense of humor. I > had brought a Chisholm computer that I think might be a prototype of > the first IBM battery operated portable (later licensed to Olivetti) > to see if anyone knew anything about it. Evan will hopefully be doing > an interview with the company president, and I mainly brought it for > him to see. > But after watching people ignore it, I put a $2000 price tag on it ... > and that got it a little more attention :). But people still didn't > ask about it though they took more notice of it. And no, I don't think > it is worth anywhere near that much money. > > I was talking to Sellam, and it would have been a good place to at > least mention the Vintage Market Place for selling/trading/buying/etc. > vintage computer stuff. And I also think this and Eric's listservers > should also have been mentioned. If we are to help build this hobby, > it might be a good idea to let people know where to get more > information :). > From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Nov 9 23:46:25 2006 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:46:25 -0800 Subject: Correction to a looooooong ago post! Message-ID: <00a301c7048b$928d7da0$6501a8c0@Wayne> If you search Google groups you will see that the first appearance of the term in a post ("lap-top") was in July 6, 1983 in a post by Dan Chernikoff, referring to the TRS-80 model 100. http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro/browse_frm/thread/301dac92a10aa 2f6/814b0c6dd096e119?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#814b0c6dd096e119 I think the precursor term was probably "lap computer." If you search that on LEXIS/NEXIS the earliest hit is a July 4, 1983 InfoWorld article that begins: Copyright 1983 InfoWorld Media Group InfoWorld July 4, 1983 SECTION: IN FOCUS; Pg. 23 LENGTH: 2638 words HEADLINE: Is there a lap computer in your future?; The dream is a desirable one, but there's still a lot of technology to develop. BYLINE: By Paul Freiberger, and John Markoff, IW Staff BODY: On the Pope's recent visit to Poland, American photojournalists covering his tour had something extra in their camera bags. Several of the photographers were carrying Radio Shack Model 100 portable computers to stay in touch with editors back home. In the past year, the personal computer has gone through another transformation in size. Now the microcomputer has left the office behind and become mobile. First it was the desktop microcomputer, then the suitcase-size portable and now the true portable, known variously as the briefcase-, lap- or notebook-size computer. A good part of the notebook-size computer explosion is attributable to Radio Shack's Model 100. Introduced several months ago, it is already a big hit for the Fort Worth, Texas, electronics giant, and it has served notice to other companies that a huge demand exists for reasonably priced lightweight computers. The Model 100 wasn't the first lapsize computer, however. Hewlett-Packard introduced the HP-75 last year, and Epson has been selling the HX-20 with a 4-line by 2-column display for almost two years. **** To search Lexis while avoiding the tags, limit the search to the body of the article by searching "Date<1985 and body(Laptop or lap-top)". Doing this will get you to a late 1983 ComputerWorld article that begins: Computerworld November 30, 1983 SECTION: Pg. 59 LENGTH: 2498 words HEADLINE: PORTABLE PRODUCTIVITY BYLINE: By William Murto; Murto is vice-president of marketing, Compaq Computer Corp., Houston. BODY: Today's portables can be divided into several descriptive catagories: the handheld units, the lap-top computers, the transportable units and the integrated portables. These machines range in weight from several ounces (the handheld units) to more than 30 pounds (the transportables). The handheld units, just as their name implies, are typically not much larger than a hand calculator and generally run on batteries. They are limited in function and are normally little more than a combination of a hand calculator and data entry terminal. The lap-top computers fit smartly into most briefcases and are considerably more powerful and capable than the handheld types. However, these versions have limited display screens and limited memory. They are also limited by the applications programs they can run. > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:31:27 -0500 > From: "Evan Koblentz" > Subject: Correction to a looooooong ago post! > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <000101c70307$e713d700$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Way back in July 1999, someone wrote thus: > > >>> Byte Magazine first used the term "laptop" in reference to a > >>> production > computer, after viewing the Epson HX-20 at a trade show in > November 1981. <<< > > The original post is here: > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-July/130419.html > .... but it's not true! Recently I looked through all the > Byte issues from that time period and found the reference in > question, which was in the Feb. 1982 issue. In the issue's > main editorial, on page 14, Chris Morgan referred to "...an > intriguing prototype of the Epson HX-20 personal computer... > The beginning of a new trend to what I call 'briefcase' > computers: battery-operated machines that combine portability > with powerful computer features. It's the sort of design > that will appeal to people on the move." > > Byte's earliest use of "laptop" that I could find wasn't > until the Jan. 1984 issue, in an article called > "Portables--1984 and Beyond" by Dave Winer. I contacted Dave > and he said he heard the term from Ester Dyson, but Ester > said she doesn't recall saying it. She did say that > "luggable" was her term, referring to the suitcase-sized > computers. Byte did write about "lap" computers a couple of > times in 1983, but not "laptops" per se. > > I'm bringing this up now because I have seen a few recent web > references which cite the 1999 post as fact. > > Can anyone show me (not just say they remember) a pre-Jan. > 1984 reference to the word "laptop" in the context of > portable computers? > > I searched on Lexis-Nexus but the results were flawed. > Apparently someone tagged all the pre-1984 references to > "mobile" and "portable" computers with the word "laptop" > which may be logical for most searchers but doesn't help me at all. > > - Evan From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 9 23:56:50 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:56:50 -0500 Subject: Correction to a looooooong ago post! In-Reply-To: <00a301c7048b$928d7da0$6501a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <000101c7048d$043db040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Thanks for your help, Wayne. I've been seaching with the L-N "a la carte" service but it doesn't work very well. Got many false results. -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Smith [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:46 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Correction to a looooooong ago post! If you search Google groups you will see that the first appearance of the term in a post ("lap-top") was in July 6, 1983 in a post by Dan Chernikoff, referring to the TRS-80 model 100. http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro/browse_frm/thread/301dac92a10aa 2f6/814b0c6dd096e119?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#814b0c6dd096e119 I think the precursor term was probably "lap computer." If you search that on LEXIS/NEXIS the earliest hit is a July 4, 1983 InfoWorld article that begins: Copyright 1983 InfoWorld Media Group InfoWorld July 4, 1983 SECTION: IN FOCUS; Pg. 23 LENGTH: 2638 words HEADLINE: Is there a lap computer in your future?; The dream is a desirable one, but there's still a lot of technology to develop. BYLINE: By Paul Freiberger, and John Markoff, IW Staff BODY: On the Pope's recent visit to Poland, American photojournalists covering his tour had something extra in their camera bags. Several of the photographers were carrying Radio Shack Model 100 portable computers to stay in touch with editors back home. In the past year, the personal computer has gone through another transformation in size. Now the microcomputer has left the office behind and become mobile. First it was the desktop microcomputer, then the suitcase-size portable and now the true portable, known variously as the briefcase-, lap- or notebook-size computer. A good part of the notebook-size computer explosion is attributable to Radio Shack's Model 100. Introduced several months ago, it is already a big hit for the Fort Worth, Texas, electronics giant, and it has served notice to other companies that a huge demand exists for reasonably priced lightweight computers. The Model 100 wasn't the first lapsize computer, however. Hewlett-Packard introduced the HP-75 last year, and Epson has been selling the HX-20 with a 4-line by 2-column display for almost two years. **** To search Lexis while avoiding the tags, limit the search to the body of the article by searching "Date<1985 and body(Laptop or lap-top)". Doing this will get you to a late 1983 ComputerWorld article that begins: Computerworld November 30, 1983 SECTION: Pg. 59 LENGTH: 2498 words HEADLINE: PORTABLE PRODUCTIVITY BYLINE: By William Murto; Murto is vice-president of marketing, Compaq Computer Corp., Houston. BODY: Today's portables can be divided into several descriptive catagories: the handheld units, the lap-top computers, the transportable units and the integrated portables. These machines range in weight from several ounces (the handheld units) to more than 30 pounds (the transportables). The handheld units, just as their name implies, are typically not much larger than a hand calculator and generally run on batteries. They are limited in function and are normally little more than a combination of a hand calculator and data entry terminal. The lap-top computers fit smartly into most briefcases and are considerably more powerful and capable than the handheld types. However, these versions have limited display screens and limited memory. They are also limited by the applications programs they can run. > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:31:27 -0500 > From: "Evan Koblentz" > Subject: Correction to a looooooong ago post! > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <000101c70307$e713d700$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Way back in July 1999, someone wrote thus: > > >>> Byte Magazine first used the term "laptop" in reference to a > >>> production > computer, after viewing the Epson HX-20 at a trade show in November > 1981. <<< > > The original post is here: > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-July/130419.html > .... but it's not true! Recently I looked through all the Byte issues > from that time period and found the reference in question, which was > in the Feb. 1982 issue. In the issue's main editorial, on page 14, > Chris Morgan referred to "...an intriguing prototype of the Epson > HX-20 personal computer... > The beginning of a new trend to what I call 'briefcase' > computers: battery-operated machines that combine portability with > powerful computer features. It's the sort of design that will appeal > to people on the move." > > Byte's earliest use of "laptop" that I could find wasn't until the > Jan. 1984 issue, in an article called > "Portables--1984 and Beyond" by Dave Winer. I contacted Dave and he > said he heard the term from Ester Dyson, but Ester said she doesn't > recall saying it. She did say that "luggable" was her term, referring > to the suitcase-sized computers. Byte did write about "lap" computers > a couple of times in 1983, but not "laptops" per se. > > I'm bringing this up now because I have seen a few recent web > references which cite the 1999 post as fact. > > Can anyone show me (not just say they remember) a pre-Jan. > 1984 reference to the word "laptop" in the context of portable > computers? > > I searched on Lexis-Nexus but the results were flawed. > Apparently someone tagged all the pre-1984 references to "mobile" and > "portable" computers with the word "laptop" > which may be logical for most searchers but doesn't help me at all. > > - Evan From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Nov 10 00:27:44 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:27:44 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> Message-ID: <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Curt, > > I have most of this. Can I call you on my dime? > Sure... headed to bed now (much too late as usual :-) )... My work # which you can reach me days is 617-252-6415 I'll be at that # tomorrow from around 9:30AM to 4:00PMish. If you need to reach me in the evenings, let me know, and depending on around what time you'd like to call I'll let you know the best # to reach me. This is all hobbyist of course (I doubt any PDP8 class gear is still in production... but I wouldn't be surprised if a few PDP11s are still doing some oddball stuff out there). -- Curt > > Thanks, Paul Anderson > 217-586-5361 > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:05 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: old DEC gear wanted > > > Checking to see if anyone out there has any of the following they would be > willing to part with... and if so, how much/etc... > > VT78 (also known as W/T78 Word Terminal if memory serves me correct) > DecMate II > DecMate III+ > PDP8/e > PDP8/f > > PDP11/73, PDP11/83, or PDP11/93 > DEC Professional Workstation 380 (PRO-380) > or other suitable (not overly LARGE) PDP11 class box for home > > How bout an XKL TOAD-1 :-) ? > > > -- Curt > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Nov 10 00:28:38 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:28:38 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> Message-ID: <45541C16.4020008@hawkmountain.net> Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Curt, > > I have most of this. Can I call you on my dime? > > > Thanks, Paul Anderson > 217-586-5361 > grrr... sorry bout the wasted electrons folks.... was supposed to go private.... doh ! -- Curt > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:05 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: old DEC gear wanted > > > Checking to see if anyone out there has any of the following they would be > willing to part with... and if so, how much/etc... > > VT78 (also known as W/T78 Word Terminal if memory serves me correct) > DecMate II > DecMate III+ > PDP8/e > PDP8/f > > PDP11/73, PDP11/83, or PDP11/93 > DEC Professional Workstation 380 (PRO-380) > or other suitable (not overly LARGE) PDP11 class box for home > > How bout an XKL TOAD-1 :-) ? > > > -- Curt > > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Nov 10 00:44:18 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:44:18 -0600 Subject: Message-ID: <88c504cde80d4cc8a00cc56f3a1ce239@valleyimplants.com> > My first thought is the EOT sensor (the optical sensor that detects the >hole in the tape). Maybe it's just clogged up with dirt, maybe it's >electrically malfunctioning. There's normally an IR LED and >phototransistor, one mounted in a block alongside the head, the other at >the bottom of the drive (there's a 45 degree mirror in the cartridge). > >-tony Hadn't thought of the tape "coming off" that way- checked with the owner and confirmed that it was what I thought originally: the tape is not rolling onto the spools evenly and is coming off the spools in the vertical direction (i.e. wrapping higher and higher until it misses the top of the spool). Quite odd- and he says it only happens on this drive. His hypothesis is an irregularity in the capstain, but I don't see how that would be an issue (DC2000 type tapes use the QIC driveband arrangement, right?). From wizard at voyager.net Fri Nov 10 00:12:56 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:12:56 -0500 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061109134845.J42840@shell.lmi.net> References: <45507209.8040304@arachelian.com> <1162969837.2911.66.camel@linux.site> <4551CB1B.5060405@arachelian.com> <1163054364.2911.90.camel@linux.site> <20061109134845.J42840@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1163139176.10553.6.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 13:50 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > . . . If there WAS an agreement about the technology between Xerox and > > Apple, why did they sue them for taking it? > > Maybe just to blow Apple's case in the Apple V Microsoft trial? > (doesn't even matter if it's too late!) Okay, my bad. I should know better than to open up the motivations of other people as justification for a debate position. I don't buy into psychic powers. And, if any of you are into telekinesis, raise my hand... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 01:08:46 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:08:46 -0500 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: <20061109184707.C55286@shell.lmi.net> References: <455371F0.6460.C640C38@cclist.sydex.com> <20061109184707.C55286@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 11/9/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Why do folks insist on calling this type of connector "Centronics"? > > I've even hear the "C" word applied to HPIB connectors. Centronics > > never used the 50 pin version, did they? > > I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X > > connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why > > "Centronics"? > > For many people who had never seen a computer until 1979 (TRS-80), > Centronics printers were the first places that they saw them. > Although business telephone systems had been using them for multi-line > phones for quite a while, "Only technicians" ever connected or > disconnected those. I used this term because everybody on ebay used it. I met it when I was searching for SCSI cables on ebay for my 3900. vax, 9000 Might as well ask why ALL D shell connectors are referred to as size B. > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Nov 10 01:40:28 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:40:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611100743.CAA17214@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [W]hen anyone in the industry refers to users, they are not referring > to experts, software engineers, people with computer science degrees, > people who collect old weird hardware, etc. That runs counter to my own experience, which is that a user refers to one who uses the thing (software, webpage, keyboard, whatever) as its intended consumers would - whether or not the (putative) user is capable of dealing with the thing on other levels. Indeed, the phrase "expert user" is used, while by your definition that would be an oxymoron. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 10 02:19:54 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:19:54 -0800 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: At 1:27 AM -0500 11/10/06, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >This is all hobbyist of course (I doubt any PDP8 class gear is still >in production... Don't be, they're still around in industrial settings. They just keep working so why spend the money to replace them. >but I wouldn't be surprised if a few PDP11s are >still doing some oddball stuff out there). They're still around in various settings, industrial, scientific, business, etc. They're used for such things as electron microscopes, spectrum analyzers, controlling parts of nuclear plants, etc., PDP-11's are still big business. In some cases it's because they're still working, why spend the money to replace, in others it would simply cost more to replace than it does to keep them running (typically places where qualifying new HW/SW can cost insane amounts of money). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 10 02:55:46 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:55:46 +0000 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/11/06 01:49, "9000 VAX" wrote: > Photo is at http://www.mscpscsi.com/scsicable.jpg > That's a VAXstation M38 etc external cable, also used on the Infoserver 150. It wasn't used for any other Microvax that I'm aware of and used to be bloody difficult to get hold of, at least for the hobbyist in the UK. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Nov 10 03:00:07 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:00:07 +0000 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:29:10 MST." Message-ID: <200611100900.JAA02473@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Richard said: > > In article <455399A1.20903 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > What about Modula-3? > > Never heard of it until you mentioned it. The wikipedia page starts > off by saying "modula-3 is a now little-used programming language..." Don't forget the other Wirth descendent of Pascal/Modula: Oberon http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ Also now little-used, but I do have an old PC that runs it as the operating system. It would be cool to find a Ceres 3 workstation, but that's a bit unlikely. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 04:55:51 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:55:51 +0000 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: References: <455371F0.6460.C640C38@cclist.sydex.com> <20061109184707.C55286@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640611100255g162e0dedhec23a54ebd0637ff@mail.gmail.com> On 10/11/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > On 11/9/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > On Thu, 9 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Why do folks insist on calling this type of connector "Centronics"? > > > I've even hear the "C" word applied to HPIB connectors. Centronics > > > never used the 50 pin version, did they? > > > I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X > > > connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why > > > "Centronics"? > > > > For many people who had never seen a computer until 1979 (TRS-80), > > Centronics printers were the first places that they saw them. > > Although business telephone systems had been using them for multi-line > > phones for quite a while, "Only technicians" ever connected or > > disconnected those. > > > I used this term because everybody on ebay used it. I met it when I was > searching for SCSI cables on ebay for my 3900. > > vax, 9000 > > Might as well ask why ALL D shell connectors are referred to as size B. > > > > > > > I had a look around google earlier about this it seems that it just stuck as it was a bigger version of their printer connection (Which was made by Wang anyway). It is called a centronics connection in the scsi-1 spec as well. But it looks like it was never used on any centronics equipment. Dan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 05:26:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 03:26:18 -0800 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: <26c11a640611100255g162e0dedhec23a54ebd0637ff@mail.gmail.com> References: , , <26c11a640611100255g162e0dedhec23a54ebd0637ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4553F15A.4827.E55BEF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 10:55, Dan Williams wrote: > I had a look around google earlier about this it seems that it just > stuck as it was a bigger version of their printer connection (Which > was made by Wang anyway). It is called a centronics connection in the > scsi-1 spec as well. But it looks like it was never used on any > centronics equipment. We had a couple of the Centronics/CDC 400 line printers. I never saw the "Centronics" connector part though--the connector on the computer end of the cable was for a Dataproducts printer. It's funny--in the grand scheme of things, the Centronics use of the Amphenol Blue Ribbon connector was fairly late in the game. PBXes had used them for multiline connectors and station connections for more than a decade before the guys at Wang stuckthe 34-pin versiont on their printers. Amphenol's still around as a brand, I believe and KSU's still use the 50 pin version (RJ21X). Centronics is long gone, vanished into the bowels of a kitchenware maker. Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 06:32:03 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:32:03 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And the "wide scsi" probably wasn't. It was DEC's narrow scsi on the 68 pin cable. Bill On 11/10/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 10/11/06 01:49, "9000 VAX" wrote: > > > Photo is at http://www.mscpscsi.com/scsicable.jpg > > > > That's a VAXstation M38 etc external cable, also used on the Infoserver > 150. > It wasn't used for any other Microvax that I'm aware of and used to be > bloody difficult to get hold of, at least for the hobbyist in the UK. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 10 07:04:42 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:04:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <000001c7048a$729fed30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20061110130442.C378E5822C@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz > > For the East 4.0 show next spring, we are * tentatively * planning a > Commodore 30th event. Depending on the timing, we might also have (at Commodore goood! :D > least) IRC terminals connected to VCF Europa if it's the same weekend, or > (if we're really ambitious) live videocasts of the keynotes. > Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 10 09:26:52 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:26:52 -0600 Subject: old DEC gear wanted References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main><45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <000401c704dd$2d28f190$6700a8c0@BILLING> Zane wrote.... (re: PDP8 stuff) > They're still around in various settings, industrial, scientific, > business, etc. They're used for such things as electron microscopes, > spectrum analyzers, controlling parts of nuclear plants, Yeah, speaking of which. A guy in the northeast US is giving me a VERY good condition dual H960 rack PDP-8A, with 128k (yup, 128k) ram, three RK05's, dectape, etc... the picture is just gorgeous. And this is applicable... because it was running a nuclear plant. Sad part is, I have no room, and no time to get the machine. Hell, not sure I want it at this point. Was also just offered a PDP-11/05 that was decomissioned just days ago in the upper midwest. Not sure I want that one either. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 09:49:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 04:49:49 +1300 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <000401c704dd$2d28f190$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> <000401c704dd$2d28f190$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 11/11/06, Jay West wrote: > Yeah, speaking of which. A guy in the northeast US is giving me a VERY good > condition dual H960 rack PDP-8A, with 128k (yup, 128k) ram, three RK05's, > dectape, etc... the picture is just gorgeous. Nice setup. I don't know how useful the 128K of RAM is under OS/8, but I remember there was a bit of support for it under RTS-8. ISTR you could roll your own application-level support for memory above 32KW, but OS/8 itself wouldn't twiddle KT8A registers, except, perhaps, for a 96KW RAM disk. Does anyone have any clearer memory on this? (I have a KT8A and 128KW MOS board, but haven't used them in too long to remember details). > Sad part is, I have no room, and no time to get the machine. Hell, not sure > I want it at this point. Ow! It _is_ a larger PDP-8 setup than most. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 10 09:59:57 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:59:57 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> <000401c704dd$2d28f190$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <844606B6-030C-4701-AF7A-14EFDC7D4127@neurotica.com> On Nov 10, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Yeah, speaking of which. A guy in the northeast US is giving me a >> VERY good >> condition dual H960 rack PDP-8A, with 128k (yup, 128k) ram, three >> RK05's, >> dectape, etc... the picture is just gorgeous. > > Nice setup. > > I don't know how useful the 128K of RAM is under OS/8, but I remember > there was a bit of support for it under RTS-8. > > ISTR you could roll your own application-level support for memory > above 32KW, but OS/8 itself wouldn't twiddle KT8A registers, except, > perhaps, for a 96KW RAM disk. Does anyone have any clearer memory on > this? (I have a KT8A and 128KW MOS board, but haven't used them in > too long to remember details). > >> Sad part is, I have no room, and no time to get the machine. Hell, >> not sure >> I want it at this point. > > Ow! It _is_ a larger PDP-8 setup than most. It is. I'd VERY happily make room for it here, if it can sit up there for a few months until I can grab it. Any chance? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 10 11:32:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:32:15 -0700 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:09:05 -0800. <20061110010905.76201.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061110010905.76201.qmail at web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > --- Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I don't recall Modula-2 being OO...? > > Neither do I. I don't even remember Modula-2. But it > was claimed by this person that "it" was oo. I don't > know what implementation of the language he was using, > but I'll find out. Stay tuned ;) Modula-2 most definatley wasn't object-oriented. It was a procedural language on steroids. Later extensions, sure, but not standard Modula-2. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From technobug at comcast.net Fri Nov 10 11:33:48 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:33:48 -0700 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: <200611101555.kAAFtrB8043720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611101555.kAAFtrB8043720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:08:46 -0500, 9000 VAX" wrote: > Might as well ask why ALL D shell connectors are referred to as > size B. All D shell connectors are not size B, only those with 25 pins - the proper designation being DB-25. The 15 pin versions are DA-15 and DE-15 (the latter being the three row version). The 37 and 50 pin versions are DC-37 and DD-50 respectively. Size-wise, besides the "standard" D-subminiature connectors are HD, micro, and nano variants. has an excellent rundown on the various flavors (flavours) and variants of these connectors. CRC From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 10 11:36:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:36:05 -0700 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:40:28 -0500. <200611100743.CAA17214@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200611100743.CAA17214 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > That runs counter to my own experience, [...] How many times do I have to say it.... YOU'RE NOT NORMAL. Generalizing to the rest of the world based on your own personal experience is always hazardous. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 11:44:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:44:31 -0800 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <455449FF.5552.FB002D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 7:32, Bill Pechter wrote: > And the "wide scsi" probably wasn't. It was DEC's narrow scsi on the 68 pin > cable. Given that a generic wide-to-narrow SCSI cable has NC's on the upper 8 bits of the wide-SCSI HD 68 connector, how does te DEC version of the cable differ? Is the signal pinout substantially different from the lower 8 bits of a generic wide-SCSI? Just curious, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 11:46:44 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:46:44 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <001501c70378$38e29240$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001501c70378$38e29240$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org> Julian Wolfe wrote: > I've done a bunch of work collecting utilities that will correct certain > issues with old hardware or enhance certain capabilities (like get rid of > snow and speed up scrolling on CGA and EGA cards, and stabilize/speedup NEC > v20 chips) Let me know if you need my help. Can you elucidate on "stabilize/speedup NEC V20 chips"? I thought I had considerable experience working with 8088 clones (8086/NEC V20/NEC V30) but I've never heard of such a procedure (or need)... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 11:54:33 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:54:33 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <000f01c704f1$47d4b420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> There's a utility called 'fastv20' that speeds up NEC V20 chips, and fixes a compatibility problem with them through software. I don't exactly remember what it does to make it faster, since I don't have the docs in front of me right now. It does do a pretty good job though! > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > > Julian Wolfe wrote: > > I've done a bunch of work collecting utilities that will correct > > certain issues with old hardware or enhance certain > capabilities (like > > get rid of snow and speed up scrolling on CGA and EGA cards, and > > stabilize/speedup NEC v20 chips) Let me know if you need my help. > > Can you elucidate on "stabilize/speedup NEC V20 chips"? I > thought I had considerable experience working with 8088 > clones (8086/NEC V20/NEC V30) but I've never heard of such a > procedure (or need)... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Nov 10 12:03:02 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:03:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: <455449FF.5552.FB002D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <455449FF.5552.FB002D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:44:31 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) > > On 10 Nov 2006 at 7:32, Bill Pechter wrote: > >> And the "wide scsi" probably wasn't. It was DEC's narrow scsi on the 68 pin >> cable. > > Given that a generic wide-to-narrow SCSI cable has NC's on the upper > 8 bits of the wide-SCSI HD 68 connector, how does te DEC version of > the cable differ? Is the signal pinout substantially different from > the lower 8 bits of a generic wide-SCSI? > > Just curious, > Chuck > > I'm pretty sure DECs VS3100 cable predates (1989) the wide SCSI standard so it really has nothing to do with the wide standard (It also uses a different 68 pin connector or at least reversed sex) Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 12:04:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:04:50 -0800 Subject: Cobol and such was Re: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45544EC2.1359.FC29C9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 10:32, Richard wrote: > Modula-2 most definatley wasn't object-oriented. It was a procedural > language on steroids. Later extensions, sure, but not standard > Modula-2. The problem, as in C, is the old "Which Modula-2"? Except that it's worse. There's the so-called "PIM" Modula-2, which, like K&R C, follows the language described in a book written by Wirth, "Programming in Modula- 2". But there were several editions of this book, each describing a slightly different language. ISO tried to pull the language into a more-or-less standard form with well-defined behavior, but the language described by the ISO standard is somewhat different from that described in the PIM editions. Something like ANSI C. But ISO also described optional extensions to the language, and one of those is a number of OO constructs. So, if the question is "Does standard Modula-2 contain OO extensions?", the answer is "yes--but it's not the language Wirth described." But then K&R doesn't describe ANSI C, either. :) A very interesting open-source version of ISO Modula-2 exists for x86 that also allows the programmer to freely mix in Oberon statements: http://www.excelsior-usa.com/xdsx86.html Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Nov 10 12:05:13 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:05:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611101806.NAA22099@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> That runs counter to my own experience, [...] > How many times do I have to say it.... > YOU'RE NOT NORMAL. But this was about how *the people around me* use the language. Or do you claim I'm so non-normative that even the people around me aren't a fair sample, despite my working for an ISP? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 12:17:24 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:17:24 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <000f01c704f1$47d4b420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <000f01c704f1$47d4b420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> Julian Wolfe wrote: > There's a utility called 'fastv20' that speeds up NEC V20 chips, and fixes a > compatibility problem with them through software. I don't exactly remember > what it does to make it faster, since I don't have the docs in front of me > right now. It does do a pretty good job though! Found it. I was somewhat disappointed: mov al, 74h out 43h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). mov al, 8Fh out 41h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). mov al, 2 out 41h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). int 20h ; DOS - PROGRAM TERMINATION This is the standard "reduce DRAM refresh rate so CPU has more leftover cycles" trick. It has nothing to do with V20's at all, it works on any XT. I was rather hoping it was something V20/V30-specific. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 12:31:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:31:42 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <000f01c704f1$47d4b420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org>, <000f01c704f1$47d4b420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <4554550E.30489.FDB369B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 11:54, Julian Wolfe wrote: > There's a utility called 'fastv20' that speeds up NEC V20 chips, and fixes a > compatibility problem with them through software. I don't exactly remember > what it does to make it faster, since I don't have the docs in front of me > right now. It does do a pretty good job though! It's a program based on an early PC magazine article about "Supercharging the PC". It changes the DRAM refresh interval which, because of the lower DMA traffic, gives a slight improvement in speed, even on an 8088-equipped PC. Early DRAM varied quite a bit on how long a chip could retain data between refreshes. (I remember being surprised by some NEC 16K DRAMs hanging on to their data after 2 seconds without refresh). You can tinker with refresh yourself. Here's the program source, in all of its glory in debug form: 0100 B074 MOV AL,74 0102 E643 OUT 43,AL 0104 B08F MOV AL,8F 0106 E641 OUT 41,AL 0108 B002 MOV AL,02 010A E641 OUT 41,AL 010C CD20 INT 20 The instructions at 104 (low byte) and 108 (high byte) are the ones to tinker with. I guess I wouldn't bother with the slight improvement, but it was all the rage back then. OTOH, replacing an 8088 with a V20 or an 8086 with a V30 is worthwhile--the improvement in chip architecture does give a boost in speed without risking anything--and gives you access to many of the 186/286 instruction set extensions, as well as a somewhat buggy 8080 emulation in hardware (e.g. JRT Pascal programs will die because of an emulation bug). Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 10 12:36:37 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:36:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Nov 10, 6 12:17:24 pm" Message-ID: <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> > > There's a utility called 'fastv20' that speeds up NEC V20 chips, and fixes a > > compatibility problem with them through software. I don't exactly remember > > what it does to make it faster, since I don't have the docs in front of me > > right now. It does do a pretty good job though! > > Found it. I was somewhat disappointed: > > mov al, 74h > out 43h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). > mov al, 8Fh > out 41h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). > mov al, 2 > out 41h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). > int 20h ; DOS - PROGRAM TERMINATION > > This is the standard "reduce DRAM refresh rate so CPU has more leftover > cycles" trick. It has nothing to do with V20's at all, it works on any > XT. I was rather hoping it was something V20/V30-specific. Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't see where it would be a lot. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Born free. Taxed to death. ------------------------------------------------- From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 12:41:24 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:41:24 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001901c704f7$d352ca40$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Things I could find that were effected by it were old Sierra games. They were fairly resource-intensive. Autosketch is also faster, as is F19 stealth fighter. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:37 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > > > > There's a utility called 'fastv20' that speeds up NEC V20 > chips, and > > > fixes a compatibility problem with them through software. > I don't > > > exactly remember what it does to make it faster, since I > don't have > > > the docs in front of me right now. It does do a pretty > good job though! > > > > Found it. I was somewhat disappointed: > > > > mov al, 74h > > out 43h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). > > mov al, 8Fh > > out 41h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). > > mov al, 2 > > out 41h, al ; Timer 8253-5 (AT: 8254.2). > > int 20h ; DOS - PROGRAM TERMINATION > > > > This is the standard "reduce DRAM refresh rate so CPU has more > > leftover cycles" trick. It has nothing to do with V20's at all, it > > works on any XT. I was rather hoping it was something > V20/V30-specific. > > Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't > see where it would be a lot. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Born free. Taxed to death. > ------------------------------------------------- > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 12:42:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:42:56 -0800 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: References: <200611101555.kAAFtrB8043720@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <455457B0.20961.FE57BE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 10:33, CRC wrote: > All D shell connectors are not size B, only those with 25 pins - the > proper designation being DB-25. The 15 pin versions are DA-15 and > DE-15 (the latter being the three row version). The 37 and 50 pin > versions are DC-37 and DD-50 respectively. So, what does one call the 19-pin two-row D-sub connector used on the Atari 520ST/1040ST boxes for the hard disk connector (Apple used them for an external drive connector on the Mac also)? Yeah, I know--"19 pin two-row D-sub". Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 12:47:12 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:47:12 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920611101047m1e2ffbf3j8ec736e96d164969@mail.gmail.com> On 11/10/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't see where it > would be a lot. Speaking from experience, the actual difference is around five percent, give or take. It wasn't much, but it seemed like a lot back then. :) Josef ...who still runs SPEED.COM on his XT-class machines. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 12:49:06 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:49:06 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4554550E.30489.FDB369B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org>, <000f01c704f1$47d4b420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4554550E.30489.FDB369B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4554C9A2.7050900@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > OTOH, replacing an 8088 with a V20 or an 8086 with a V30 is > worthwhile--the improvement in chip architecture does give a boost in > speed without risking anything--and gives you access to many of the > 186/286 instruction set extensions, as well as a somewhat buggy 8080 > emulation in hardware (e.g. JRT Pascal programs will die because of > an emulation bug). The V33A should be even quicker, no? Was it still pin-compatible with the 8086? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 10 12:50:19 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:50:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: <455457B0.20961.FE57BE5@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov 10, 6 10:42:56 am" Message-ID: <200611101850.kAAIoJg8239478@floodgap.com> > > All D shell connectors are not size B, only those with 25 pins - the > > proper designation being DB-25. The 15 pin versions are DA-15 and > > DE-15 (the latter being the three row version). The 37 and 50 pin > > versions are DC-37 and DD-50 respectively. > > So, what does one call the 19-pin two-row D-sub connector used on the > Atari 520ST/1040ST boxes for the hard disk connector (Apple used them > for an external drive connector on the Mac also)? "Nonstandard." -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. --------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 12:50:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:50:44 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Nov 10, 6 12:17:24 pm", <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 10:36, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't see where it > would be a lot. Depends on how much nerve you have, but typically about 10 percent or less. I thought the overclocking craze on the PC-AT was a lot more interesting, myself... Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 14:23:50 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:23:50 -0600 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001a01c70506$2249e800$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > I thought the overclocking craze on the > PC-AT was a lot more interesting, myself... Apparently on the AT model, you needed to have an early (1984) BIOS to make it work, but yeah, I know the CPUs in the one I have are 10MHz bumped down to 6. The great thing about the AT's CPU was that it wasn't tied to the system clock like the XT was. Back in the day, you could buy plug-in frequency synthesizers that would just work, and you got your 10mhz+ CPU back. One of these days maybe... From jwest at ezwind.net Fri Nov 10 14:31:59 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:31:59 -0600 Subject: identify this memory board (configuration)? Message-ID: <002e01c70507$46230a80$6700a8c0@BILLING> I have a unibus memory board with the following markings. Anyone have any docs for it as to jumper and switch settings? Ditronics - 1A Standard Memories MM-144 Assy 102485 There's 2 sets of dip switches, 8 switches each. There's also a jumper DIP plug, 14 pin. There's 4 LED's labled +5v, run, u.err, and c.err. Any help is most appreciated! Jay West From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 10 14:55:27 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:55:27 -0700 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Nov 10, 6 12:17:24 pm", <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4554E73F.4090402@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2006 at 10:36, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't see where it >>would be a lot. > > > Depends on how much nerve you have, but typically about 10 percent or > less. I thought the overclocking craze on the PC-AT was a lot more > interesting, myself... > > Cheers, > Chuck Why not build a static ram card -- no dynamaic ram and really speed up the pc. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 15:10:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:10:49 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4554C9A2.7050900@gmail.com> References: <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org>, <4554550E.30489.FDB369B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4554C9A2.7050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45547A59.21269.106CDF57@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 13:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The V33A should be even quicker, no? Was it still pin-compatible with > the 8086? IIRC, the V33/V33A was packaged in PLCC or PGA; I believe (without going digging after my V-series documentation) that the data bus and address busses are kept separate instead of being multiplexed (as on the 8088). In the pantheon of x86 CPUs, it's pretty hard to find a sample of one of these. I think NEC used it on a model of the 9801, but I don't think it was deployed very widely otherwise. Mind you, this is without consulting my databooks; so my memory is a little hazy. I think if the V33A were pin-compatible with the 8088, it would have been an instant hit in the PeeCee world. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 15:21:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:21:24 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <001a01c70506$2249e800$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <001a01c70506$2249e800$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 14:23, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Apparently on the AT model, you needed to have an early (1984) BIOS to make > it work, but yeah, I know the CPUs in the one I have are 10MHz bumped down > to 6. There were stories of some folks clocking the 286 as high as 20 MHz. I think IBM didn't want to be saddled with the support issues that overclocking entailed, so they modified the BIOS to make the clock speed check. If you knew someone with a PROM burner, it was easy to patch out, however. Or you could kick the clock up after POST. Some early Taiwanese PC clones had a jumper-selectable Turbo mode that simply switched oscillators (or crystals) to a higher frequency. Very crude--the time-of-day clock would run way too fast without a TSR to scale things back. That brings up an interesting question. Who was the first to apply the word "turbo" to a CPU? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 15:23:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:23:46 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4554E73F.4090402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org>, <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4554E73F.4090402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45547D62.28809.1078BAE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 13:55, woodelf wrote: > Why not build a static ram card -- no dynamaic ram and really speed up the pc. Back in the day, fast static RAM was fairly expensive. Of course, you could do this today, but where's the fun in that? Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Nov 10 16:01:43 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: ra81's are irking me In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:20:42 CST." <006301c703ae$0c21e810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200611102201.kAAM1h9K019430@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >Bill wrote.... >>I think (It's a long time since my '86 DEC Days...) there was one of the >> cables between the drive and the cabinet that was kind of null modem'd. > >Ah, that makes sense. That doesn't seem to be documented (cept perhaps in >the prints which I haven't looked at yet). So, how does one test (or tell) >if a given cable is non-null-modem'd or null-modem'd (with respect to SDI), >and what should it be end to end? That way I can find the right kind of >cable :) When i'm having sdi problems I try (and this is just me) to run one cable directly from the uda 50 to the drive. This seems to work great for ra7x's and ra9x's. It might be a trick with an ra81 due to the bulk (but you might be able to set them up butt to butt as it were - i just know I'm going to regret typing that) The rule is the # of sdi cables needs to be odd. 1 or 3. going direct with one has always worked for me. -brad From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 10 16:16:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:16:14 -0700 Subject: Visible Storage @ Computer History Museum Message-ID: I flew to San Jose to see The Who in concert (excellent show, btw, I recommend catching them if you can) and had a few hours to kill before the show. So I went down to the CHM to check out the Visible Storage exhibit. Lots of great stuff! There is something about that distinctive smell you get when you walk into a room full of old electronics that is intoxicating! :-) I want to extend a personal thanks to Al Kossow who met me in the lobby and showed me a few 'behind the scenes' areas: his software library storage, the lab where he does restoration work on old tapes, the restoration lab where a crew is currently restoring some old equipment (IBM? SDS? I can't remember) and the big warehouse storage area where they have lots of goodies awaiting restoration and display. I got to see an Evans & Sutherland Picture System II in the flesh for the first time there :-). Definately recommended if you haven't been out there before. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Nov 10 15:01:15 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:01:15 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4554E89B.8020605@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 1:27 AM -0500 11/10/06, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >> but I wouldn't be surprised if a few PDP11s are >> still doing some oddball stuff out there). > > They're still around in various settings, industrial, scientific, > business, etc. They're used for such things as electron microscopes, > spectrum analyzers, controlling parts of nuclear plants, etc., > PDP-11's are still big business. In some cases it's because they're > still working, why spend the money to replace, in others it would > simply cost more to replace than it does to keep them running > (typically places where qualifying new HW/SW can cost insane amounts > of money). Jerome Fine replies: I don't have any estimates as to how much "insane" might be, but as a wild guess, from 10 to 1000 times the actual cost of the associated software and hardware for the actual system. So if a typical PDP-11/73 system might have cost $ 20,000.00 new (back in 1985), then the complete application, including associated software and hardware interfaces might be from $ 200,000.00 to $ 20,000,000.00 for just one subsystem. At Ontario Hydro, a typical 3,000 Megawatt station might have cost $ 10,000,000,000.00 to build, so the PDP-11/73 system would be only a small, but critical sub-system. Jay - did you get my reply. Why did you want to contact me? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 10 16:55:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:55:04 -0700 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:01:15 -0500. <4554E89B.8020605@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4554E89B.8020605 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > I don't have any estimates as to how much "insane" might be, > but as a wild guess, from 10 to 1000 times the actual > cost of the associated software and hardware for the > actual system. [...] Another application area where requalifying new equipment is prohibitively expensive is anything regulated by the FDA as a medical device. There is one medical equipment manufacturer that routinely seeks out shrink-wrapped copies of DOS 6.2 in order to ship new equipment. It keeps this guy in business . -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 17:13:33 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:13:33 +1300 Subject: ra81's are irking me In-Reply-To: <200611102201.kAAM1h9K019430@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <006301c703ae$0c21e810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200611102201.kAAM1h9K019430@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/06, Brad Parker wrote: > When i'm having sdi problems I try (and this is just me) to run one > cable directly from the uda 50 to the drive. This seems to work great > for ra7x's and ra9x's. Haven't (yet) had the pleasure... I've run systems with RA9Xs, but never had to swap out drives. > It might be a trick with an ra81 due to the bulk > (but you might be able to set them up butt to butt as it were - i just > know I'm going to regret typing that) Ow! ;-) > The rule is the # of sdi cables needs to be odd. 1 or 3. > > going direct with one has always worked for me. Sure. Simplify, simplify, simplify. Speaking of going direct, one of my longer-term DEC cabinet projects is to fire up an RA70 I have in a BA123. I'd like to find some of the light-weight "in cabinet" style SDI cables - they are, IIRC, grey and round, not black and square like the cab-to-cab cables I have enough of. Does anyone have a) part numbers, or b) a spare cable or two? I already have the drives and the KDA50s, etc. I suppose one way might be to rig up something right from the KDA50 directly to the drive, bypassing the I/O bulkhead, but I don't know enough about the nature of the cabling to make an end-to-end scratch cable. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 17:27:54 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:27:54 +1300 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <9e2403920611101047m1e2ffbf3j8ec736e96d164969@mail.gmail.com> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> <9e2403920611101047m1e2ffbf3j8ec736e96d164969@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > On 11/10/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't see where it > > would be a lot. > > Speaking from experience, the actual difference is around five > percent, give or take. It wasn't much, but it seemed like a lot back > then. :) I remember spending $20 for a 68010-L8 to get that 5% advantage on an Amiga 1000 (one-instruction loop cache was the relevant feature). Back in the day, 5% for _free_ would have been sweet (I never knew about this hack when I had an XT). -ethan From ying6926 at ureach.com Fri Nov 10 17:29:38 2006 From: ying6926 at ureach.com (Henry Ji) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:29:38 -0500 Subject: Help needed: DEC Micorvax II printing Message-ID: <200611102329.SAA29879@www21.ureach.com> We have one DEC micovax II that does not have printer so we bought one Okidata 320 with SUB9 connector. Once we try to make connection, the computer is slowed significantly. It does not print. Some one was recommending using another computer to capture using windows. I don't know the exact procedure. free to download from web? I was able to log in from management interface (RS232) but don't know how to get the files now because the application software is very complicated. thanks Henry From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 10 17:46:24 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:46:24 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: <455449FF.5552.FB002D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <455449FF.5552.FB002D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1156.192.168.0.4.1163202384.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, November 10, 2006 5:44 pm, Chuck Guzis said: > Given that a generic wide-to-narrow SCSI cable has NC's on the upper > 8 bits of the wide-SCSI HD 68 connector, how does te DEC version of > the cable differ? Is the signal pinout substantially different from > the lower 8 bits of a generic wide-SCSI? Well, it terminates in a 50 pin low-density connector so all those extra lines either have to go somewhere or....not :o) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 18:00:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:00:40 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <9e2403920611101047m1e2ffbf3j8ec736e96d164969@mail.gmail.com> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> <200611101836.kAAIacUQ127100@floodgap.com> <9e2403920611101047m1e2ffbf3j8ec736e96d164969@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <455512A8.9090309@oldskool.org> Josef Chessor wrote: > On 11/10/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Just for yuks, how much difference does this make? I can't see where it >> would be a lot. > > Speaking from experience, the actual difference is around five > percent, give or take. It wasn't much, but it seemed like a lot back > then. :) Confirmed, it's 5% on my 5160 (6% if I want to live fast and loose ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 18:03:19 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:03:19 -0600 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <001a01c70506$2249e800$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45551347.50206@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were stories of some folks clocking the 286 as high as 20 MHz. Everex, king poombah of truly dubious overclocks sold as commercial products, did this. I have used a 20MHz 80286 Everex machine before. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 18:09:50 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:09:50 -0600 Subject: Visible Storage @ Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455514CE.901@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > So I went down to the CHM to check out the Visible Storage exhibit. > Lots of great stuff! There is something about that distinctive smell > you get when you walk into a room full of old electronics that is > intoxicating! :-) Ozone? (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 18:15:33 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:15:33 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061108013721.70079.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45551625.8070304@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > > Ok, but let's be specific. Who has spent >$200 for a > piece of equipment, software, hardware, paraphenalia, > whatever, that was at least 15 years old? I want to > say 20+, but let's make it easy. And not for > work/profit...for umm, pleasure (?). I for one > qualify. oi I barely qualify; I spent $440 for an Amiga 4000 Rev B. motherboard in perfect working order. However, the usage was mostly for "work" (making a DVD) and not so much "play" (the A500s are for that). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 18:19:13 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:19:13 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20061108080409.05c93e50@mail> <20061108115207.N80072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45551701.4080209@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 8 Nov 2006, John Foust wrote: >> I don't know what's with you retro kids these days. Back in the >> old days, speed was cool. You wanted a faster machine. Now that >> the most whizzy machines are 1/100th the price (in inflation-adjusted >> dollars) you're still playing with the stuff in the dumpster. >> Programs still start more quickly on a faster CPU. > > example: > I want to type a grocery list > start a RS M100, Coco, M1, Apple][, Osborn, N*, and a "modern" machine. > I can be finished typing, and printing before the "modern" machine has > finished booting. Well, take the Apple ][ off the list and I'd agree with you. It takes at least a full minute to boot any useful word processor on an Apple. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 18:19:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:19:39 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45551347.50206@oldskool.org> References: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com>, <45551347.50206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4554A69B.31436.1119BFFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 18:03, Jim Leonard wrote: > Everex, king poombah of truly dubious overclocks sold as commercial > products, did this. I have used a 20MHz 80286 Everex machine before. But this was on a regular old 6MHz AT chassis. At least one outfit advertising in the back of PC Week (IIRC) offered a little kit of oscillators. You kept plugging in faster and faster clocks until your machine quit working. A very dangerous way to live. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 18:27:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:27:17 +1300 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <4554A69B.31436.1119BFFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> <45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com> <45551347.50206@oldskool.org> <4554A69B.31436.1119BFFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But this was on a regular old 6MHz AT chassis. At least one outfit > advertising in the back of PC Week (IIRC) offered a little kit of > oscillators. You kept plugging in faster and faster clocks until > your machine quit working. 8Mhz.... 10 Mhz... 12Mhz... 16Mhz... 22Mhz... *POOF* 0Mhz... ;-) -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 10 18:29:47 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:29:47 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> <4554E73F.4090402@jetnet.ab.ca> <45547D62.28809.1078BAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > On 10 Nov 2006 at 13:55, woodelf wrote: > > > Why not build a static ram card -- no dynamaic ram and really speed up the pc. > > Back in the day, fast static RAM was fairly expensive. Of course, > you could do this today, but where's the fun in that? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Didn't some manufacturer sell a machine with SRAM instead of DRAM for a short period of time when DRAM and SRAM prices were about the same? It was supposed to be a screamer at the time. From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Nov 10 18:47:17 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:47:17 -0500 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com> Harris Semiconductor made licensed 80286 CPU's. They made them in 16 and 20mhz versions. I used to sell systems made with them, and at the time the 386sx came out, a 286-20 was MUCH faster than a 386 20mhz... Al From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 10 18:52:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:52:19 -0700 Subject: Visible Storage @ Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:09:50 -0600. <455514CE.901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <455514CE.901 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Richard wrote: > > So I went down to the CHM to check out the Visible Storage exhibit. > > Lots of great stuff! There is something about that distinctive smell > > you get when you walk into a room full of old electronics that is > > intoxicating! :-) > > Ozone? (ducking) Its more like the smell of old wiring and leaky capacitors! I didn't mean intoxicating in the literal sense, only in the "wow, I can tell by the smell there's some serious old equipment in this room!" sense. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 10 18:57:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:57:47 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org>, <009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4554AF8B.12601.113CA968@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 19:29, Teo Zenios wrote: > Didn't some manufacturer sell a machine with SRAM instead of DRAM for a > short period of time when DRAM and SRAM prices were about the same? It was > supposed to be a screamer at the time. In the PC world, I don't know. But SRAM was fairly popular in the S- 100 world, even with its higher power dissipation. My old MITS Altair had 2 boards of 4K TI DRAM and it would drop bits if you looked at it crossways. When I replaced those with some SSM static RAM boards (91L02s), I was much happier. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Nov 10 19:41:17 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:41:17 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:59:57 EST." <844606B6-030C-4701-AF7A-14EFDC7D4127@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200611110141.kAB1fHPO006383@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > It is. I'd VERY happily make room for it here, if it can sit up >there for a few months until I can grab it. Any chance? I'll help if I can grab one of the rk05's.... -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 18:40:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:40:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061110005851.15672.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 9, 6 04:58:51 pm Message-ID: > > > But if that is the case, I'd just grab a solder > > sucker and desolder banks > > 0 and 1 and fit turned-pin sockets in place of them. > > > > -tony > > It occurred to whilst perched atop a big fat rock > that placing a circuit board in shallow tray of cool > water, component side down would probably eliminate > the possibility of smoking a chip while desoldering, > with a wick or whatever. Sound reasonable? It shouldn't be necessary. Provided you use a temperature-controlled soldering iron (and don't have it too cold -- you want it to melt the solder before the chip and PCB have a chance to get too hot), you will not damage the IC. In any case, you should be more worried about damaging the PCB (for example the through-hole plating) than the chips. 64K DRAMs are not hard to get, after all. In fact, if I wasn't sure of my abilities to desolder the ICs, I'd cut the pins off them and then desolder them one at time from the PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 18:47:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:47:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: <455371F0.6460.C640C38@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 9, 6 06:22:40 pm Message-ID: > I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X > connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why > "Centronics"? I normally call them 'Blue Ribbon' -- what should be be calling them? Amphenol make (made?) a very large range of connectors, so that name is nowhere near specific enough... Still, it could be worse. At least one major UK supplier calls the 'IEEE-488 connectors' (no, not just the 24 pin version, all sizes). Does anyobody know where to get them with more than 50 pins? I am looking for a 64 pin plug (I think, maybe 60 pin), the socket is on the expansion interface PCB for the HP IPC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 19:31:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:31:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: from "CRC" at Nov 10, 6 10:33:48 am Message-ID: > > > On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:08:46 -0500, 9000 VAX" wrote: > > > Might as well ask why ALL D shell connectors are referred to as > > size B. > > All D shell connectors are not size B, only those with 25 pins - the I beleive there's also a DB44 (this being the high-density 3-row version in a B-sized shell). Also DA26 and DC62 (there is no high-density in a size D shell that I've ever seen). > proper designation being DB-25. The 15 pin versions are DA-15 and > DE-15 (the latter being the three row version). The 37 and 50 pin > versions are DC-37 and DD-50 respectively. I'll agree with that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 19:34:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:34:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: <455457B0.20961.FE57BE5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 10, 6 10:42:56 am Message-ID: > So, what does one call the 19-pin two-row D-sub connector used on the > Atari 520ST/1040ST boxes for the hard disk connector (Apple used them > for an external drive connector on the Mac also)? > > Yeah, I know--"19 pin two-row D-sub". I've seen them called DF19' (and 'DG23' for the 23 pin connector used, for example, on the Amiga video port), but I suspect that's unofficial -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 19:40:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:40:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <45547D62.28809.1078BAE0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 10, 6 01:23:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 10 Nov 2006 at 13:55, woodelf wrote: > > > Why not build a static ram card -- no dynamaic ram and really speed up the pc. > > Back in the day, fast static RAM was fairly expensive. Of course, > you could do this today, but where's the fun in that? As a sort-of aside, the HP110 and 110+ (Portable and PortablePlus) machines were 8086-based laptops running MS-DOS (but not at all PC-compatible at the BIOS or hardware levels) with static RAM. Row upon row of 6264s (8K byte static RAM chips -- my Portable+ has, IIRC, 112 of them in SOIC pacakges. My 110 has rather fewer, but all in DIL packages, there's a PCB the size of the base of the machine containg the CPU, ROMs, a bit of support logic, and loads of RAMs -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 19:19:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:19:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: In-Reply-To: <88c504cde80d4cc8a00cc56f3a1ce239@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Nov 10, 6 00:44:18 am Message-ID: > > > > > My first thought is the EOT sensor (the optical sensor that detects the > >hole in the tape). Maybe it's just clogged up with dirt, maybe it's > >electrically malfunctioning. There's normally an IR LED and > >phototransistor, one mounted in a block alongside the head, the other at > >the bottom of the drive (there's a 45 degree mirror in the cartridge). > > > >-tony > > Hadn't thought of the tape "coming off" that way- checked with the > owner and confirmed And I'd not thought of it 'coming off' in any sense other than running off the spool.... > that it was what I thought originally: the tape is not rolling onto > the spools evenly and is > coming off the spools in the vertical direction (i.e. wrapping higher > and higher until it misses > the top of the spool). Quite odd- and he says it only happens on this > drive. What would happen if the tape head was tilted (front-back) relative to the guides in the cartrdige? Could that put a sideways force on the tape? Maybe the cartridge isn't seating properly,or the head guides (does it move the head up and down to change tracks?) are misaligned or something. > His hypothesis is an irregularity in the capstain, but I don't see how > that would be an issue > (DC2000 type tapes use the QIC driveband arrangement, right?). I don;t see how that could be the problem. -tony From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 10 19:55:32 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:55:32 -0500 Subject: Visible Storage @ Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: <455514CE.901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200611110153.kAB1rZba013256@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:09:50 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >Richard wrote: >> So I went down to the CHM to check out the Visible Storage exhibit. >> Lots of great stuff! There is something about that distinctive smell >> you get when you walk into a room full of old electronics that is >> intoxicating! :-) Nothing like the smell of burnt resistors in the morning, it smells like ..... Job Security :) From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 10 19:59:48 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:59:48 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> <009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game> <4554AF8B.12601.113CA968@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00b801c70535$12b7cef0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > On 10 Nov 2006 at 19:29, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Didn't some manufacturer sell a machine with SRAM instead of DRAM for a > > short period of time when DRAM and SRAM prices were about the same? It was > > supposed to be a screamer at the time. > > In the PC world, I don't know. But SRAM was fairly popular in the S- > 100 world, even with its higher power dissipation. My old MITS > Altair had 2 boards of 4K TI DRAM and it would drop bits if you > looked at it crossways. When I replaced those with some SSM static > RAM boards (91L02s), I was much happier. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I think it was a Compaq 386 that used SRAM for its main memory, expensive but faster then DRAM for sure. From rcini at optonline.net Fri Nov 10 20:55:12 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:55:12 -0500 Subject: EPROM utilities Message-ID: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Does anyone have a pointer handy to utilities for merging and splitting ROM images? I have two EPROMs (high and low) that I need to merge into a single image for disassembly. Ultimately I'll need to re-split the image. Thanks! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From reevejd at mchsi.com Fri Nov 10 21:08:33 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:08:33 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org><009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game><4554AF8B.12601.113CA968@cclist.sydex.com> <00b801c70535$12b7cef0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <000e01c7053e$b1082240$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> The P112 has static RAM also. If you store something on a RAM disk then reset the system, you find the files are still there! Pretty cool. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:59 PM Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:57 PM > Subject: Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... > > >> On 10 Nov 2006 at 19:29, Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> > Didn't some manufacturer sell a machine with SRAM instead of DRAM for a >> > short period of time when DRAM and SRAM prices were about the same? It > was >> > supposed to be a screamer at the time. >> >> In the PC world, I don't know. But SRAM was fairly popular in the S- >> 100 world, even with its higher power dissipation. My old MITS >> Altair had 2 boards of 4K TI DRAM and it would drop bits if you >> looked at it crossways. When I replaced those with some SSM static >> RAM boards (91L02s), I was much happier. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > > I think it was a Compaq 386 that used SRAM for its main memory, expensive > but faster then DRAM for sure. > From bear at typewritten.org Fri Nov 10 21:58:27 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:58:27 -0800 Subject: Apple Tape Backup 40SC question In-Reply-To: <541127b3d54b43ec937b26928a9f4cd5@valleyimplants.com> References: <541127b3d54b43ec937b26928a9f4cd5@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > We've gotten as far as replacing the capstan with a similarly- > sized piece of tubing, and now he's having problems with the tape > coming off the reels (no problems on another DC2000 > (I think) style drive) I'm at a loss (can't see the setup, either). > Any ideas? I've gone over the loose bands problem with him, > and it isn't that. It wouldn't be. The replacement roller is wrong; it's probably too big or perhaps too soft (deformable) or maybe even not exactly on- axis, in any case resulting in incorrect force loading on the drive capstan in the tape cartridge. This causes the drive band to "creep" on the capstan, and thus ultimately on the tape itself. He's going to have to _re_ re-roller the drive. ok bear From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Nov 10 23:18:21 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:18:21 -0800 Subject: EPROM utilities In-Reply-To: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> (Richard A. Cini's message of "Fri\, 10 Nov 2006 21\:55\:12 -0500") References: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200611110518.kAB5ILGI079792@lots.reanimators.org> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a pointer handy to utilities for merging and > splitting ROM images? I have two EPROMs (high and low) that I need to merge > into a single image for disassembly. Ultimately I'll need to re-split the > image. http://srecord.sourceforge.net/ -Frank McConnell From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 23:29:31 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:29:31 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45555FBB.8070600@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >> TEXT on my Tandy 200 starts one heckuva lot faster at 2.4Mhz than >> OpenOffice on my 2.4 GHz. > > "Wordstar on an 4.077 MHz 8088 could keep up with my typing; WinWord > under Windoze on a 300 MHz PII can't." --Seth Breidbart While the point is taken, his windows configuration must have been seriously broken for the word processor to not be able to keep up with him. That sounds like he was shoehorning windows 2000 into 64MB of ram or something. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 10 23:32:15 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:32:15 -0600 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> Al Hartman wrote: > Harris Semiconductor made licensed 80286 CPU's. > > They made them in 16 and 20mhz versions. > > I used to sell systems made with them, and at the time the 386sx came > out, a 286-20 was MUCH faster than a 386 20mhz... How is that possible? The 386 improved many instructions to run in fewer clocks... Besides, I'd always take a 386-16 over a 286-20, because the 286-20 runs protected mode applications at 0MHz ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wizard at voyager.net Fri Nov 10 23:41:28 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:41:28 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1163223688.25543.42.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 00:47 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X > > connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why > > "Centronics"? > > I normally call them 'Blue Ribbon' -- what should be be calling them? > Amphenol make (made?) a very large range of connectors, so that name is > nowhere near specific enough... It must be that "two great cultures separated by a common language thing. The big, hooded connectors have been identified well here. Most places I have been refer to them as "Amphenol connectors," unless they are specifically for parallel printers, in which case people refer to them as Centronics cables. The cables made from ribbon cable, with crimp-on square plastic headers are called, around these parts, "Berg cables" or "ribbon cables," due to the "Berg connectors," as Berg made most of them at one time. [ Caution: Digression Follows: ] My family is Canadian, and I was born in the U.S., so I have learned to be careful of a few words within the Anglophone world. I'll never forget my amazement at the fact that the word "table," used as a verb in business situations, meant approximately opposite things in GB and the US. And, God forbid I should ever mention putting on my pants to my aggressively Canadian half-brother. Sheesh. I got him back, though... he fancies himself quite the singer -- and actually is pretty good. He was overly proud of being in "The Sound of Music," and insisted upon singing "Edelweiss" for me. Okay, I tolerated that... but then he insisted that *I* sing along. Most rudely and forcefully did he insist. So, I pretty much HAD to do it. (He had challenged my ability to sing the German. Ahem.) I have at least as good a voice, and projected it fully.... only I sang, where "edelweiss" belonged, "affeschwanz." I think I ruined "The Sound of Music" for him. I KNOW he hears MY lyrics every time he hears that song. Heh, heh. On the bright side, he has not tried to force me to sing with him since then. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 11 00:02:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:02:00 -0800 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com>, <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 23:32, Jim Leonard wrote: > How is that possible? The 386 improved many instructions to run in > fewer clocks... > > Besides, I'd always take a 386-16 over a 286-20, because the 286-20 runs > protected mode applications at 0MHz ;-) Strange, but apparently true in some cases: http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an111.pdf I imagine that the difference would be exaggerated even more with a 386SX. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Nov 11 00:33:42 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:33:42 -0600 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com>, <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45556EC6.9030306@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How is that possible? The 386 improved many instructions to run in >> fewer clocks... >> > Strange, but apparently true in some cases: > > http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an111.pdf That's not really a fair comparison, since that product note is from 1997, long after the time period we're talking about. Doing some more thinking, it's possible that some 386 PCs are hampered by memory wait states more than some implementations of 286 PCs. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evan at snarc.net Sat Nov 11 01:14:45 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:14:45 -0500 Subject: Couple of things for sale... Message-ID: <000601c70561$11f1bbd0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm selling a few things that I no longer need. Greatly prefer to sell it all as one unit: - TI CC-40 (new in box, I just don't need it) - Epson HX-20 (I wound up with two, this one is the computer only + microcassette drive, no AC adapter, but it works fine -- selling because I got bought a better one at VCF) - Psion Organiser II XP (new 9v battery, works fine, with 32 rampak and 32k datapak, bought on impulse and don't really need it) Looking for $100 total + s/h. Will consider trades if it's something * really * interesting related to portables. Advertising this elsewhere as well. Please reply OFF-LIST to evan at snarc.net .... Thanks. - Evan K. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Nov 11 05:32:38 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 06:32:38 -0500 Subject: Apple Tape Backup 40SC question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:58:27 PST." Message-ID: <200611111132.kABBWcXV029197@mwave.heeltoe.com> "r.stricklin" wrote: > >On Nov 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > >> We've gotten as far as replacing the capstan with a similarly- >> sized piece of tubing, and now he's having problems with the tape >> coming off the reels (no problems on another DC2000 >> (I think) style drive) I'm at a loss (can't see the setup, either). >> Any ideas? I've gone over the loose bands problem with him, >> and it isn't that. > >It wouldn't be. The replacement roller is wrong; it's probably too >big or perhaps too soft (deformable) or maybe even not exactly on- >axis, in any case resulting in incorrect force loading on the drive >capstan in the tape cartridge. This causes the drive band to "creep" >on the capstan, and thus ultimately on the tape itself. I don't know if this helps, but I found tu-58's doing this (reading off the end of the reel) when the read channel was dead. They don't have any explicit EOT detection. I've never looked at an apple tape unit though. -brad From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Nov 11 06:10:02 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:10:02 +0100 Subject: ra81's are irking me References: <006301c703ae$0c21e810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><200611102201.kAAM1h9K019430@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Ethan wrote: >Speaking of going direct, one of my longer-term DEC cabinet projects >is to fire up an RA70 I have in a BA123. I'd like to find some of the >light-weight "in cabinet" style SDI cables - they are, IIRC, grey and >round, not black and square like the cab-to-cab cables I have enough >of. > >Does anyone have a) part numbers, or b) a spare cable or two? I >already have the drives and the KDA50s, etc. I suppose one way might >be to rig up something right from the KDA50 directly to the drive, >bypassing the I/O bulkhead, but I don't know enough about the nature >of the cabling to make an end-to-end scratch cable. > >Thanks, > >-ethan I have two of those cables. They came from the innards of a microVAX 3900, and they handle nicer than the black stiff rectangular ones. Sorry, they are used to connect two RA81's to my VAX-11/750. The cables have a male and a female plug, and they are is +/- 1.5 meters. One of them is labeled: P/N 17-01482-01 MFG. MC 46461-000 05-15-89 Hope that helps (a little). . - Henk This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Nov 11 07:54:14 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com>, <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4555D606.1030804@arachelian.com> Nice! Reminds me of the very first 486's we saw. We had a bunch of decent speed 386's at the time, and some upgrades came in, in the form of 486's. The 486's were also at a higher clock rate, so we were scratching our heads as to why our software ran much slower on the 486's.... Turns out that we didn't order any cache chips with them, while the 386 motherboards had the max they could support! D'Oh! :-) Ah, the good ol'e days of Netware 386... A few years later, we had fun with the F00FC7C8 opcode on the Pentiums. Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Strange, but apparently true in some cases: > > http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an111.pdf > > I imagine that the difference would be exaggerated even more with a > 386SX. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Nov 11 09:24:51 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 07:24:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <45556EC6.9030306@oldskool.org> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com>, <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> <45556EC6.9030306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2006, Jim Leonard wrote: > Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:33:42 -0600 > From: Jim Leonard > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: Overclocking ATs > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> How is that possible? The 386 improved many instructions to run in fewer >>> clocks... >>> >> Strange, but apparently true in some cases: >> http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an111.pdf > > That's not really a fair comparison, since that product note is from 1997, > long after the time period we're talking about. > > Doing some more thinking, it's possible that some 386 PCs are hampered by > memory wait states more than some implementations of 286 PCs. Not sure but we waited for 33 MHz 386's because our PC layout software ran significantly faster on our 20 MHz 286's than 20 MHz 386's. It was a noticeable difference, maybe 20%... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Nov 11 10:44:21 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:44:21 -0600 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game> References: <4554C234.6040208@oldskool.org> <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com> <4554E73F.4090402@jetnet.ab.ca> <45547D62.28809.1078BAE0@cclist.sydex.com> <009d01c70528$802ef420$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4555FDE5.4010708@brutman.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> On 10 Nov 2006 at 13:55, woodelf wrote: >> >>> Why not build a static ram card -- no dynamaic ram and really speed up > the pc. >> Back in the day, fast static RAM was fairly expensive. Of course, >> you could do this today, but where's the fun in that? >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > > Didn't some manufacturer sell a machine with SRAM instead of DRAM for a > short period of time when DRAM and SRAM prices were about the same? It was > supposed to be a screamer at the time. > > This brings back a painful memory of reading a Jerry Pournelle column while stuck on an airplane. I think he had such a system. It was an 80486 and he called it 'Cheetah'. I'm actually kind of interested in learning how to do this. I have several machines in varying states of disrepair, and the 512K memory card is usually the common denominator. Instead of trying to repair the card (a proprietary memory card in a Racore expansion unit for a PCjr), I want to replace the card entirely with an implementation done using an SRAM. I know of somebody who did this, and I have his schematic. I can certainly figure out the pinouts and mappings, but being a software person and not a hardware person when it comes to board layout I get a little fidgety. And my soldering skills aren't developed yet. (I won't say suck until they are developed and do really suck.) On the 512K card in question you get rid of 16 (no parity) 256K chips and the DRAM controller. (It's a PCjr, so it uses a DRAM controller to refresh add-on memory, not a DMA channel.) All that is left is address decode logic and an SRAM. And you get rid of the refresh cycles too. Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 11 10:39:03 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 08:39:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADB "power key always down" plug Message-ID: <200611111639.kABGd336154406@floodgap.com> Anyone seen one of these where the ADB power pin is always forced on so that if the computer shuts down unexpectedly, it is forced to reboot immediately? I know I have seen such a product; there are software-hardware combos but I know I've seen a plug that did this just by manipulating the power pin. Obviously it can't reset a frozen Mac, but it could reboot after a power failure even if the Mac's PMU settings were b0rk3d. Failing that, has anyone built one? It seems like it's just a matter of grounding pin 2 unless someone knows better, as shown on this diagram: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/whitefiles/b1_s/1_free_guides/fg1mt/pgs/h10b.htm -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Nov 11 12:04:08 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:04:08 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I pulled all boards from the 11/44 backplane and used an eraser to clean all the contact fingers. Then I vacuumed the slots. After wiping the boards clean of any small particles, I reseated the boards ... the system still shows the same problem, the RUN LED stays on and I don't get the >>> prompt. Then I swapped the CTRL (M7095) board. ^P gives me the >>> again. However, "H" (halt) gives the response "?Failed to halt". The "T" (selftest) command seems OK, the LED on the MFM board is briefly ON. As the MFM board was also suggested to be causing problems, I replaced the MFM board. Now the RUN LED stays OFF! However, I get an other problem. The VT100 displays: CONSOLE ?22 CP HUNG I can enter the T and the H command. That works fine. But, for example, an E (examine) command gives the ?22CP HUNG. When I install the original MFM board again, the RUN LED stays ON, but the "E 2" command gives the response " P 00000002 000001" and the H command says "?Failed to halt". According to the documentation you can do EXAMine commands while the system is running, but you can not do a DEPosit. Proof: I entered "D 2 2" and the response is "?Halt CP". So, one MFM board gives "?22 CP HUNG", but the RUN LED is OFF, the other MFM board allows examine, but the RUN LED stays ON, and you can not halt the processor. I am still reading, but give these symptoms perhaps clues? thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 11 07:13:12 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 07:13:12 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45555FBB.8070600@oldskool.org> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45555FBB.8070600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4555CC68.8030703@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > der Mouse wrote: >>> TEXT on my Tandy 200 starts one heckuva lot faster at 2.4Mhz than >>> OpenOffice on my 2.4 GHz. >> >> "Wordstar on an 4.077 MHz 8088 could keep up with my typing; WinWord >> under Windoze on a 300 MHz PII can't." --Seth Breidbart > > While the point is taken, his windows configuration must have been > seriously broken for the word processor to not be able to keep up with > him. That sounds like he was shoehorning windows 2000 into 64MB of ram > or something. Hmm, not so sure. This laptop's running at 266MHz with 192MB of memory and Openoffice under Linux really struggles[1]; I could believe that a 300MHz machine saddled with the extra baggage of Windows could have problems. [1] It copes if I don't run anything else other than the desktop environment - but for 'typical' usage where I might have a usenet client or web browser or Thunderbird open it has real issues. cheers J. -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 11 13:59:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:59:14 -0800 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45556EC6.9030306@oldskool.org>, Message-ID: <4555BB12.13498.1551B503@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2006 at 7:24, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Not sure but we waited for 33 MHz 386's because our PC layout software ran > significantly faster on our 20 MHz 286's than 20 MHz 386's. It was a > noticeable difference, maybe 20%... There were similar anomalies throughout much of the Intel x86 line. Early Socket 4 Pentiums could be outrun by a 486DX2 in some circumstances and early P4s could be outrun by a P3. Or a Pentium Pro could be substantially slower than a Socket 7 Pentium when executing 16-bit code, and so on. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 11 14:32:17 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:32:17 +0000 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4555D606.1030804@arachelian.com> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com>, <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> <4554F6D8.6960.12532BCA@cclist.sydex.com> <4555D606.1030804@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <45563351.4060800@philpem.me.uk> Ray Arachelian wrote: > A few years later, we had fun with the F00FC7C8 opcode on the Pentiums. Ah yes, the infamous F00F bug, from the people who brought you the even more infamous FDIV bug. Officially described as an "illegal form of the CMPXCHG8B instruction with the LOCK prefix". Also known as 'How to crash any Pentium series chip without the messy business of having to steal ring-zero access first'. Lovely. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Nov 11 15:02:59 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:02:59 -0600 Subject: ADB "power key always down" plug Message-ID: Some of the machines can do this in hardware (the IIcx/ci/Q700 come to mind immediately). Push in the back panel power button and twist 90 degrees. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 11 14:52:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:52:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPROM utilities In-Reply-To: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> from "Richard A. Cini" at Nov 10, 6 09:55:12 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have a pointer handy to utilities for merging and > splitting ROM images? I have two EPROMs (high and low) that I need to merge For what OS/machine? I'm no programmer, but when I've needed something like this, I've found it to be as quick to write it from scratch (a few lines of C) than to ask where to find it and download it. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 11 15:17:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:17:09 -0800 Subject: EPROM utilities In-Reply-To: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <4555CD55.3889.1599080A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2006 at 21:55, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a pointer handy to utilities for merging and > splitting ROM images? I have two EPROMs (high and low) that I need to merge > into a single image for disassembly. Ultimately I'll need to re-split the > image. Have a look at Zilog's ZCONVERT utility for Windoze: http://www.zilog.com/download/default.asp?email=na&from=download&blnDo c=false&from=onyx Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 11 16:18:10 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:18:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADB "power key always down" plug In-Reply-To: from Scott Quinn at "Nov 11, 6 03:02:59 pm" Message-ID: <200611112218.kABMIAu2160688@floodgap.com> > Some of the machines can do this in hardware (the IIcx/ci/Q700 come to > mind immediately). Push in the back panel power button and twist 90 degrees. I know that, and my IIci is already set up this way, but this is for a 7300 that doesn't have such a facility. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He is rising from affluence to poverty. -- Mark Twain ---------------------- From technobug at comcast.net Sat Nov 11 16:25:51 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:25:51 -0700 Subject: Free DEC SCSI cable, centronics 50 male to 68 pin female (HD68?) In-Reply-To: <200611111800.kABI0915063718@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611111800.kABI0915063718@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <66433391-621A-43A1-8E1A-17713DB76147@comcast.net> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:41:28 -0500, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 00:47 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> I've heard them called Amphenol, CHAMP, telco, PBX and RJ21X >>> connectors as well as "Blue Ribbon" (shows my age). But why >>> "Centronics"? >> >> I normally call them 'Blue Ribbon' -- what should be be calling them? >> Amphenol make (made?) a very large range of connectors, so that >> name is >> nowhere near specific enough... > > > It must be that "two great cultures separated by a common language > thing. The big, hooded connectors have been identified well here. > Most > places I have been refer to them as "Amphenol connectors," unless they > are specifically for parallel printers, in which case people refer to > them as Centronics cables. > > The cables made from ribbon cable, with crimp-on square plastic > headers are called, around these parts, "Berg cables" or "ribbon > cables," due to the "Berg connectors," as Berg made most of them at > one > time. Amphenol, the inventor of this type of connector, calls the current connectors "Micro Ribbon". The original connector had connector widths at least twice that of the current connectors and IIRC were called "Blue Ribbon". You occasionally find them on old ('50s) gear - especially old military radios and scientific equipment. The Micro Ribbon 25 pair format was initially used big time by the telecom folks to hook up PBX systems and then transitioned to the computer field where Centronic used the 36 connector version for what became the ubiquitous printer port. Among us old farts the name has stuck whereby we refer to all connectors of that type as "Blue Ribbon" - nothing to do with blue ribbon-cables - where all the newbies call them "Centronics". CRC From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 11 17:20:12 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:20:12 -0500 Subject: Odd video problem Message-ID: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> I have a 386/40 and a 486 EISA system that sometimes boot in mono mode instead of color. Any idea why that would be? The CMOS seems to keep its settings and the time is correct. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 18:53:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 16:53:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061109134845.J42840@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20061112005306.47693.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> ... Upon hearing > that, Xerox filed suit > > against Apple in the middle of the Apple vs. > Microsoft trial. If there WAS an agreement about the > technology between Xerox and > > Apple, why did they sue them for taking it? > > Maybe just to blow Apple's case in the Apple V > Microsoft trial? > (doesn't even matter if it's too late!) Ummm, why didn't Xerox sue M$ too, or at least attempt to? If Apple was guilty, so was the big-M, no? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 19:04:38 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:04:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <001a01c70506$2249e800$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <20061112010438.87290.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > > I thought the overclocking craze on the > > PC-AT was a lot more interesting, myself... > > Apparently on the AT model, you needed to have an > early (1984) BIOS to make > it work, but yeah, I know the CPUs in the one I have > are 10MHz bumped down > to 6. I overclocked the 286 in my ITT XTRA XP years ago (6 - 8mhz woopy) by replacing the crystal. Worked fine, slightly *noticeably* faster. Am not aware of a bios dependency for this hack. In fact, later AT's had an 8 mhz clock. I'm a bit behind here. If y'all were talking about raising it to some *other* ungodly speed, forgive the interference. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 19:13:38 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:13:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45551625.8070304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061112011339.88292.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > I barely qualify; I spent $440 for an Amiga 4000 Rev > B. motherboard in > perfect working order. However, the usage was > mostly for "work" (making > a DVD) and not so much "play" (the A500s are for > that). Being large ignorant of the Amiga and it's capabilities, I'm wondering why you decided on that for, presumably, an editing job. Was it the expansion needed that only a 2000 could offer (as opposed to a 500)? Was a toaster in on the trick? Again, couldn't a Mac, or some SGI machine have done the job, or heck even a peecee? I guess it depends on when you bought this mobo, but $440 could afford alot in terms of add-on hardware/software, even a possibly completely different system to do it with. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 19:16:31 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:16:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <4554A69B.31436.1119BFFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061112011631.134.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > At > least one outfit > advertising in the back of PC Week (IIRC) offered a > little kit of > oscillators. You kept plugging in faster and faster > clocks until > your machine quit working. Or 'sploded altogether. Ah the aroma! Somebody disconnect the battry from the smoke alarm. LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 19:41:12 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:41:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061112011339.88292.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061112014112.41101.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > Being large ignorant of the Amiga... I hate wasting a post for simply a correction, but that should have read "largely ignorant". But large and ignorant might work too ( > nearly 6'4") ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 11 19:49:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:49:21 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <20061112010438.87290.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001a01c70506$2249e800$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <20061112010438.87290.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2006 at 17:04, Chris M wrote: > I overclocked the 286 in my ITT XTRA XP years ago (6 > - 8mhz woopy) by replacing the crystal. Worked fine, > slightly *noticeably* faster. Am not aware of a bios > dependency for this hack. In fact, later AT's had an 8 > mhz clock. We're talking REAL IBM AT's--model 5170. "Clones" didn't incorporate the speed-checking code in the BIOS. A few folks forget the PC/XT 286 model 5162 that was actually a bit faster (because of 0 WS DRAM) that the original 5170. I don't know if the 5162 ever incorporated any speed-checking in the BIOS. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 20:00:26 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:00:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061112020026.94602.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> > A few folks forget the PC/XT > 286 model 5162 that was actually a bit faster > (because of 0 WS DRAM) > that the original 5170. I don't know if the 5162 > ever incorporated > any speed-checking in the BIOS. I heard a strange rumor to the effect that the PC/XT 286 incorporated a "real" 5170 mobo. I didn't really believe it when I heard it, but besides, some full size clone AT cased couldn't take a real 5170 mobo, how could the (essentially an XT case I guess) take one? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 20:03:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:03:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061112020347.48844.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > We're talking REAL IBM AT's--model 5170. "Clones" > didn't incorporate > the speed-checking code in the BIOS. It was said you needed an early bios to upgrade the speed. So, if you had a model with the "early" bios, you could toss in whichever crystal you wanted. I know that up until some *bios* point anyway, the 5170 was bump-uppable. But once they altered the bios (before or after upgrading the 5170s speed?) you were stuck at stock, whether it was 6 or 8 mhz? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 20:27:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amigas don't turn on Message-ID: <20061112022750.94636.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> when their parts are strewn about 3 or more states. Cpu (got that), p/s, mouse (I think my 600 came with a mouse), monitor cable (never could figure that one out), and monitor (nice one too). And turning it on would be efficacious in producing what result Golan? I'm doubtful the rom code wouldn't scroll across my screen if I did. You didn't have to tell me how to do it, no obligation there. But you didn't have to hurt me either. I did have it on once come to think, but I plugged it into a mini tv-vcr. That cable it came with just wasn't working out for me. Looked ok. There wasn't alot of 'Miga talk lately. I figured I provoke some. I think I'll think twice next time. Golan, your last name sounds almost as German as the people I come from (in part). I don't give out such personal information on the web though. It helps to be paranoid in this godless day and age yer know. Nice to keep a few secrets besides. And no, said last name does not begin with an "H". Good grief. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 11 20:45:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:45:14 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <20061112020347.48844.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061112020347.48844.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45561A3A.27044.16C56449@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2006 at 18:03, Chris M wrote: > It was said you needed an early bios to upgrade the > speed. So, if you had a model with the "early" bios, > you could toss in whichever crystal you wanted. I know > that up until some *bios* point anyway, the 5170 was > bump-uppable. But once they altered the bios (before > or after upgrading the 5170s speed?) you were stuck at > stock, whether it was 6 or 8 mhz? The XT 286 did not use the same motherboard that the AT did--it would have been physically impossible. As it was, the XT/286 was more than a little cramped under the hood--a couple of the slots could take only short cards. The other problem was that original "stock" AT expansion cards were too tall to fit in the otherwsie XT-high chassis. It was a bizarre beast, but a good performer for the money. IIRC the memory used in the XT 286 was a bit odd also. The original 5170's were 6MHz products. I'd heard that IBM originally intended to ship 8 MHz units (certainly 8MHz 80286 CPUs were available in 1986), but the idea of shipping a system that was at least 5 times faster than the 5160 was nixed by marketing--I don't know if the story's really true, but it would be typical of IBM of the time. I suspect this was behind the later incorporation of a speed check in the later 6 MHz BIOSes--ant hat IBM shortly thereafter began shipping 8 MHz versions of the PC/AT. FWIW, this intentional "dumbing down" to meeat a price point was an old game. Others could verify this, but I believe that the only difference between the CDC CYBER 72 and 73 was the addition of a wait state or two. I'd heard that CE's could sometimes be bribed to remove the offending jumper for customers. When I was at Durango, we'd spec-ed our models for 7 and 14 MB Rodime hard disks and set the pricing accordingly. Not too long thereafter, Rodime discontinued the models and begin substituting (for no addional cost) 10MB and 20MB drives. Marketing asked us to artificially "clamp" the hard disk capacity in the OS so that customers wouldn't get more than they paid for. Only recentlly, I pulled out the CPU from an Toshiba Infinia 7230 (which used the Intel AN430TX mobo) and discovered that it was a 233 Mhz MMX unit, yet Toshiba had left the CPU clock at 200MHz on the mobo because that's what the model was advertised as. I haven't checked the 7201 that I have (ostensibly 160MHz, but it wouldn't surprise me if a faster CPU were under the hood). Cheers, Chuck From gklinger at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 21:45:33 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 22:45:33 -0500 Subject: Amigas don't turn on In-Reply-To: <20061112022750.94636.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061112022750.94636.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chris M wrote: > when their parts are strewn about 3 or more states. Perhaps it would have been useful to include that nuggest of information in your original post. I took time the time to attempt to help you and for my trouble I get a snarky response suggesting I was trying to "hurt" you. Well, I won't risk injuring you further with my clearly useless responses. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 11 21:59:54 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:59:54 -0800 Subject: Odd video problem In-Reply-To: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> Teo Zenios wrote: >I have a 386/40 and a 486 EISA system that sometimes boot in mono mode instead of color. Any idea why that would be? The CMOS seems to keep its settings and the time is correct. > > Ted, I think that the video bios initialization had some early forms of monitor sensing. I believe that there was a monochrome mode vga monitor supported, which looked better with a modified grey level fed to it rather than just feeding it a color signal and trying to clean it up in the monitor. If it is the 9 pin video that was used by some XGA and PGA that does not apply, but only to the VGA. I saw it do this, and found that plugging in the right monitor and getting it to decide to run in mono mode caused it to stay that way regardless of what monitor i subsequently attached, so it is definitely the card and system doing it. If you are running linux, or could load a "live" linux and boot it, I would think that the utilities under linux, or under dos that queries the adapter bios as to the modes it will drive would be different depending on what mode it comes up in as well. I was able to purge out a video card and monitor card to get rid of my problem, but I realize EISA cards are probably a bit rare. They all use about the same approach to the vga bios though. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 01:24:15 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 01:24:15 -0600 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45561A3A.27044.16C56449@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061112020347.48844.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <45561A3A.27044.16C56449@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4556CC1F.10906@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The original 5170's were 6MHz products. I'd heard that IBM > originally intended to ship 8 MHz units (certainly 8MHz 80286 CPUs > were available in 1986), but the idea of shipping a system that was > at least 5 times faster than the 5160 was nixed by marketing--I don't > know if the story's really true, but it would be typical of IBM of > the time. An 8MHz 80286 is nowhere near 5x as fast as a 4.77MHz 8088. 2.5x, sure, but not 5x. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 01:25:47 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 01:25:47 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <4555CC68.8030703@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45555FBB.8070600@oldskool.org> <4555CC68.8030703@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4556CC7B.90308@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, not so sure. This laptop's running at 266MHz with 192MB of memory > and Openoffice under Linux really struggles[1]; I could believe that a Stop right there. Openoffice is the source of that bloat; not a good example for blaming the OS in the previous example. Run ps to see how bad the damage is. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 01:28:54 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 01:28:54 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <20061112011339.88292.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061112011339.88292.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4556CD36.1070900@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > > --- Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I barely qualify; I spent $440 for an Amiga 4000 Rev >> B. motherboard in >> perfect working order. However, the usage was >> mostly for "work" (making >> a DVD) and not so much "play" (the A500s are for >> that). > > Being large ignorant of the Amiga and it's > capabilities, I'm wondering why you decided on that > for, presumably, an editing job. Was it the expansion > needed that only a 2000 could offer (as opposed to a > 500)? Was a toaster in on the trick? It wasn't for an editing job, but if it was, your guess at the Toaster was a good guess but wrong model; the Toaster was usually paired with a 2000 or 3000. My purpose was to generate realtime multimedia video with the Amiga and capture it for editing. See www.mindcandydvd.com for details on the previous incarnation of the project (used PCs); this incarnation is 100% Amiga output and should be for sale in about 6 weeks. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 01:32:36 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 01:32:36 -0600 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4555BB12.13498.1551B503@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45556EC6.9030306@oldskool.org>, <4555BB12.13498.1551B503@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4556CE14.2090404@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were similar anomalies throughout much of the Intel x86 line. > Early Socket 4 Pentiums could be outrun by a 486DX2 in some > circumstances and early P4s could be outrun by a P3. Or a Pentium > Pro could be substantially slower than a Socket 7 Pentium when > executing 16-bit code, and so on. The former examples are all mostly vendor implementation-specific (size of cache, wait state of dram, first Pentium motherboard logic unoptimized, etc.), but the Pentium Pro example was by design: Intel deliberately sped up 32-bit protected mode at the expense of 16-bit in the design. It was quite intentional (something they ended up taking a small amount of flak for). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 12 03:09:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 01:09:13 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <4556CC1F.10906@oldskool.org> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45561A3A.27044.16C56449@cclist.sydex.com>, <4556CC1F.10906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45567439.9448.1824EF3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2006 at 1:24, Jim Leonard wrote: > An 8MHz 80286 is nowhere near 5x as fast as a 4.77MHz 8088. 2.5x, sure, > but not 5x. Under a compute-bound load, many seem to think it's pretty close to 5x. For example, see: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/cpu/arch/perfSpecifics-c.html http://www.ultratechnology.com/bench.htm I'm not quoting the Dhrystone benchmark results here, because while the sampling is large, there's just too much of an apples-and-oranges feel about the results. I wish I could find some early iCOMP results for the 8088 and 286. I submit the proposition that the relative improvement in performance between any two consecutive IBM PC models never exceeded that obtained between the 5160 and the 5170. I recall running some very compute-heavy benchmarks from an 8 MHz 8088 and being startled by how much faster they ran on a 6 MHz 80286. I believe that benchmarks tend to have a first-cousin relationship to unvarnished mendacity, but given the combination of faster I/O and processing speed, I think an 8 MHz 5170 comes very close to being almost 5 times as fast as a 4.77 MHz 5160. Perhaps one of the list members can verify this. I've got XT and AT "clones", but that might not give an accurate reflection of performance on IBM hardware. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 08:39:22 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:39:22 +1300 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/11/06, Tony Duell wrote: > I beleive there's also a DB44 (this being the high-density 3-row version > in a B-sized shell). Also DA26 and DC62 (there is no high-density in a > size D shell that I've ever seen). I have equipment at home with a DB44 (external IDE connection for CD-ROM on a Planar-brand 486 in an LCD-based wall-mount computer) and a DA26 (Cisco AGS+ router). I've never seen a high-density D-shell either. -ethan From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 10:14:20 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:14:20 -0500 Subject: Help in identifying chip... In-Reply-To: <200611111800.kABI0919063718@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611111800.kABI0919063718@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4557485C.5070900@yahoo.com> I have a load of these chips from NEC... Can anyone help me identify them? NEC D8041C It's a 40-Pin DIP Chip. And I've been unable to find any information on-line about it. We've come into a whole load of 74 and 75 series TTL chips as well as load of Relays and Power Transistors and other assorted parts. Once I get them all inventoried, I'll make a website. Hopefully listmembers looking for classic IC's will find this to be a useful cache of parts... Al Phila, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 12 10:30:22 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:30:22 -0800 Subject: Help in identifying chip... In-Reply-To: <4557485C.5070900@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Al These are 8041's. These are copies of Intel's 8041's. They are similar to 8048's in code but have a port with handshake, similar to that on a 8255. These chips are mask ROM chips but can be connected to an exteranal EPROM. As I recall, the major difference, other than the port was that they could only use internal RAM ( but I could be wrong on that ). Dwight >From: Al Hartman >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Help in identifying chip... >Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:14:20 -0500 > >I have a load of these chips from NEC... Can anyone help me identify them? > >NEC D8041C > >It's a 40-Pin DIP Chip. And I've been unable to find any information >on-line about it. > >We've come into a whole load of 74 and 75 series TTL chips as well as load >of Relays and Power Transistors and other assorted parts. > >Once I get them all inventoried, I'll make a website. > >Hopefully listmembers looking for classic IC's will find this to be a >useful cache of parts... > >Al >Phila, PA > _________________________________________________________________ Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free trip! http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 12 10:53:40 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:53:40 +0000 Subject: Anyone need some fuse PROMs? Message-ID: <45575194.50008@philpem.me.uk> Hi, Just got back from the hamfest with a bag of 19x Signetics 82S129 fuse-PROMs and a single 82S23. I'm kicking myself a little because I've just found out that the 82S23 is another fusePROM (32x8 O/C output) and I spent a good five minutes digging out all the '129s thinking the '23 was a standard logic chip. There were at least half a dozen more in the bag that I separated out.. Oh well, live and learn. All the chips appear to be new - the legs are splayed out a few degrees, and there isn't a scratch on them. So the million-dollar question is.. does anyone need any of these things? I might have another dozen or so in the cupboard too, and '82S129 programmer' is currently sitting in third place on my "Master To-Do List" (right after "build something neat to enter into the Parallax SX design contest" and "look into building a USB floppy disc raw-reader/archiver"). Reply either here or off-list if you're interested. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 13:31:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:31:30 -0600 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45567439.9448.1824EF3D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45561A3A.27044.16C56449@cclist.sydex.com>, <4556CC1F.10906@oldskool.org> <45567439.9448.1824EF3D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45577692.1080903@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I believe that benchmarks tend to have a first-cousin relationship to > unvarnished mendacity, but given the combination of faster I/O and > processing speed, I think an 8 MHz 5170 comes very close to being > almost 5 times as fast as a 4.77 MHz 5160. Perhaps one of the list > members can verify this. I've got XT and AT "clones", but that might > not give an accurate reflection of performance on IBM hardware. If you're talking about pure CPU processing with it's interface to RAM, it is not 5 times as fast, and no benchmark will properly reflect that. The only thing about an 80286 that truly is 5 times as fast is the MUL and DIV instructions: On 8088, MUL reg16,reg16 takes at least 118 cycles while on 80286 it's exactly 21. If a benchmark makes heavy use of MUL/IMUL/DIV/IDIV then yes, it will report artificially inflated times. The only thing that could substantiate "5 times faster" between 4.77MHz 8088 and 6MHz 80286 would be a faster I/O subsystem, like a hard drive with a 2:1 or 1:1 interleave. But that is outside of the core claim. I have a 5160 sitting next to me and can easily drag out my PC/XT 286 (6MHz 80286) if someone really wants me to run benchmarks for comparison. But some old MIPS.COM numbers show that the actual improvement across general instructions, integer instructions, memory-to-memory operations, register-to-register operations, and register-to-memory operations is about 3 times faster... not 5. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Nov 12 13:47:42 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:47:42 -0800 Subject: Floating point unit on Ebay for PDP8 Message-ID: <45577A5E.1060607@msm.umr.edu> there is an FPP-12 on ebay that expires tomorrow (Monday at 9am) It looks to be in excellent condition with documentaition. Hope someone can get this beast for their collection. Anyone interested in PDP8's or lots of flip chips should bring this up and take a look anyway, there are 12 ranks of card edge connectors and a great wire wrap backplane photo, for those that just like the photos. Located at a gold scrapper in Atlanta, GA Jim 290047654838 From bear at typewritten.org Sun Nov 12 14:00:27 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:00:27 -0800 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2006, at 6:39 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have equipment at home with a DB44 (external IDE connection for > CD-ROM on a Planar-brand 486 in an LCD-based wall-mount computer) and > a DA26 (Cisco AGS+ router). > > I've never seen a high-density D-shell either. There is a DD78 (relatively common on multiport serial interfaces and also used on IBM parallel channels), and even a DD100, which I've only ever seen once (on the IBM microchannel 8-port EIA-232 ARTIC Portmaster Adapter/A) ok bear From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 12 15:16:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:16:26 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45577692.1080903@oldskool.org> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45567439.9448.1824EF3D@cclist.sydex.com>, <45577692.1080903@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45571EAA.15702.1ABEB8B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2006 at 13:31, Jim Leonard wrote: > The only thing that could substantiate "5 times faster" between 4.77MHz > 8088 and 6MHz 80286 would be a faster I/O subsystem, like a hard drive > with a 2:1 or 1:1 interleave. But that is outside of the core claim. That wasn't my claim; I said that "had IBM decided to release the 5170 as an 8 MHz machine..." when comparing with a 5160. Right there, you start off with a cycle time that's nearly twice as fast. If anyone has a 5150/60 with an 4.77MHz CPU clock and an 8 MHz 5170 handy I'd be interested to hear the results of SI and SPEED numbers. I can probably do it if no one volunteers. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 15:36:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45571EAA.15702.1ABEB8B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061112213654.10796.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> FWIW, I seem to remember the common conception being that the 6mhz 5170 was 3x faster then the 4.77 8088. Don't ask for specifics, cuz I just don't have them. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 15:46:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:46:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amigas don't turn on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061112214618.33004.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Golan Klinger wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > > when their parts are strewn about 3 or more > states. > > Perhaps it would have been useful to include that > nuggest of > information in your original post. Well I was looking to run an emulator. Couldn't that have been hint enough that a real 'Miga wasn't an option? > I took time the > time to attempt to > help you and for my trouble I get a snarky response > suggesting I was > trying to "hurt" you. Well, I won't risk injuring > you further with my > clearly useless responses. I didn't say it was useless, just that it left me flummoxed. Besides, was there sufficient cause to take all of what I said so seriously...or just that one part? I think we need to apply the law of averages here dude. Rock steady ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 17:57:01 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:57:01 -0600 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <45571EAA.15702.1ABEB8B0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45567439.9448.1824EF3D@cclist.sydex.com>, <45577692.1080903@oldskool.org> <45571EAA.15702.1ABEB8B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4557B4CD.5030105@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That wasn't my claim; I said that "had IBM decided to release the > 5170 as an 8 MHz machine..." when comparing with a 5160. Right > there, you start off with a cycle time that's nearly twice as fast. Yes, but twice != five times as fast. They didn't improve every single opcode's time... the core ones like ADC went from 3 cycles to 2... MOV involving registers stayed the same... JMPs are only one cycle faster if jump isn't taken... etc. A lot of the esoteric opcodes like XLAT and AAD were dramatically improved, as were MUL/DIV but those aren't exactly basic building blocks of all applications. > If anyone has a 5150/60 with an 4.77MHz CPU clock and an 8 MHz 5170 > handy I'd be interested to hear the results of SI and SPEED numbers. > I can probably do it if no one volunteers. I would suggest you ditch Norton SI and instead use MIPS.COM which is much more granular and has defaults for exactly your test case machines. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 12 18:27:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:27:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help in identifying chip... In-Reply-To: <4557485C.5070900@yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Nov 12, 6 11:14:20 am Message-ID: > > I have a load of these chips from NEC... Can anyone help me identify them? > > NEC D8041C > > It's a 40-Pin DIP Chip. And I've been unable to find any information > on-line about it. This is the NEC version of the Intel 8041. The 8041 is a microcontroller, based on the well-known 8048 microcontroller family, but it also includes an I/O port circuit that lets it appear and an I/O device on another processor's bus. A very well-known application of this is the keyboard interface in a PC/AT (or later) machine, this uses an 8042, which is the same devce with more intenral ROM (and RAM?) The 8041 is a mask-programmed device, which means a program was stored in it when it was made. Do you have any idea what this program is (is there a copyright on the chip (other than NEC or Intel)? A part number other than 8041 (and a date code?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 12 18:20:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:20:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <20061112020026.94602.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 11, 6 06:00:26 pm Message-ID: > I heard a strange rumor to the effect that the PC/XT > 286 incorporated a "real" 5170 mobo. I didn't really > believe it when I heard it, but besides, some full > size clone AT cased couldn't take a real 5170 mobo, > how could the (essentially an XT case I guess) take one? No it doesn't, for the reason you've suggested. A 5170 mainboard will not fit in an XT case. The XT-286 mainboard is electrically quite similar to the AT (5170) mainboard, but there are differences. One obvious difference is the RAM -- the AT mainboard can take a maximum of 512k (either in 256K*1 chips in later versions or some odd IBM 128K*1 devices that are actually 2 64K*1 chips with strange pinouts piggybacked in earlier versions). The XT-286 board is designed to hold 640K as 2 256K*9 simms, 4 64K*4 chips and 2 64K*1 chips (parity on that last 128K). There's also a problem with some adapter cards being too tall to fit in the XT case. For example only ther later version of the hard/floppy disk controller will fit. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 18:37:23 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:37:23 +1300 Subject: Floating point unit on Ebay for PDP8 In-Reply-To: <45577A5E.1060607@msm.umr.edu> References: <45577A5E.1060607@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 11/13/06, jim stephens wrote: > there is an FPP-12 on ebay that expires tomorrow (Monday at 9am) It > looks to be in excellent condition with documentaition. Very nice. I knew about the relationship between PDP-8 Fortran IV and the FPP-12; I never knew how large an FPP-12 was. Back in the day, I'd guess you'd have to be pretty serious about Fortran performance to spring for one of those. -ethan From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Nov 12 18:53:36 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:53:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Odd video problem In-Reply-To: <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> References: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2006, jim stephens wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I have a 386/40 and a 486 EISA system that sometimes boot in mono mode >> instead of color. Any idea why that would be? The CMOS seems to keep >> its settings and the time is correct. > > Ted, > > I think that the video bios initialization had some early forms of > monitor sensing. I believe that there was a monochrome mode vga monitor > supported, which looked better with a modified grey level fed to it > rather than just feeding it a color signal and trying to clean it up in > the monitor. Many of the better quality cards of that era did exactly that. I ran such a setup up until about 4-5 years ago when I swapped out my 486 for a P166, which I'm currently still using. > If it is the 9 pin video that was used by some XGA and PGA that does not > apply, but only to the VGA. > > I saw it do this, and found that plugging in the right monitor and > getting it to decide to run in mono mode caused it to stay that way > regardless of what monitor i subsequently attached, so it is definitely > the card and system doing it. > > If you are running linux, or could load a "live" linux and boot it, I > would think that the utilities under linux, or under dos that queries > the adapter bios as to the modes it will drive would be different > depending on what mode it comes up in as well. I can't remember for sure now, but I believe I was able to switch the video mode under Linux when the system was already running when I'd swap over to the color monitor. I used the gray scale VGA while coding for hours on end as I found it to be easier on my eyes than a color VGA monitor that was almost exactly the same. The two monitors were NEC 2A and gs2A. I still have them, but they both began to suffer from old age, both in bad caps and I believe the tube in the 2A was starting to degrade. > I was able to purge out a video card and monitor card to get rid of my > problem, but I realize EISA cards are probably a bit rare. > > They all use about the same approach to the vga bios though. My guess for intermittent troubles would be a loose connector. I had to replace the DE-15 on my 2A monitor's cable for that very reason. I'd so like to find one or more reasonably priced 17" mono VGA monitors these days... -Toth From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 19:09:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:09:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking Message-ID: <20061113010957.68094.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> that f/h card being an IDE or MFM? Did IbM even make an IDE card? I really should know the answer to that... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 19:13:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:13:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking Message-ID: <20061113011354.17426.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Ive learned that many XT-286s were really shrunken ATs, unlike my old ITT XTRA XP. Was the subject really a tiny-AT? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 12 19:32:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:32:30 -0800 Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <20061113011354.17426.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061113011354.17426.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45575AAE.6258.1BA92653@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2006 at 17:13, Chris M wrote: > Ive learned that many XT-286s were really shrunken > ATs, unlike my old ITT XTRA XP. Was the subject really > a tiny-AT? I'm not sure what you mean by "subject", but I think the IBM PC/XT 286 was mostly an attempt on IBM's part to use up old stocks of XT cases. They had to be expensive, even in the quantites that IBM was selling--they have nice rolled edges, unlike the "clones" that could lay your hand open if you happened to stroke the thing wrong. Tony, thanks for the reminder on the XT/286 DRAM chips. I recalled that they were "special", but couldn't remember the details. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 12 19:36:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:36:37 -0800 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <4557B4CD.5030105@oldskool.org> References: <45560D21.16870.16923D0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45571EAA.15702.1ABEB8B0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4557B4CD.5030105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45575BA5.28144.1BACE84B@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2006 at 17:57, Jim Leonard wrote: > I would suggest you ditch Norton SI and instead use MIPS.COM which is > much more granular and has defaults for exactly your test case machines. If we want historical accuracy, I'll dig out my Landmark SPEED program. This was what was trotted out by every PC vendor at shows and advertised widely in print. Ignore the observations that the Landmark indices were insane, they were what the customers back in 1985 would have seen--and perceived the speed improvement to be--and one need only test their 286--the baseline measurement of 4.77MHz PC was built in (Landmark = 1.0). Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 12 20:01:57 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:01:57 -0800 Subject: Help in identifying chip... References: <200611111800.kABI0919063718@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4557485C.5070900@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4557D216.A9C20742@cs.ubc.ca> Al Hartman wrote: > I have a load of these chips from NEC... Can anyone help me identify them? > > NEC D8041C > > It's a 40-Pin DIP Chip. And I've been unable to find any information > on-line about it. There is a (partial) datasheet for the 8041A at http://www.datasheetarchive.com/datasheet.php?article=3867872 Includes a block diagram and electrical specs but does not include the instruction set encoding, which is in the class of "UPI Instruction Set", the spec for which I have yet to find - should probably look for the 8048 datasheet. I will happily accept being corrected but the block diagram implies that it is not possible to use an external ROM for the 8041A, so you may be stuck with whatever is fixed in the internal ROM, which would make them more-or-less useless. Perhaps the D8041C differs from the 8041A (?). http://www.datasheetarchive.com is pretty good as a free datasheet source. I was just looking up datasheets for a bunch of microcontrollers (8741,80C32,8751...) a few days ago. Sometimes you have to widen the search. For example, in your case, "D8041C" produces no match, but "8041" does. Unfortunately they have moved to Acrobat 6 pdfs for some scans, making a lot of the datasheets unreadable to those using older browsers. I was just trying to get data for the 68HC11. It's there but I can't display it. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 12 21:08:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:08:04 -0800 Subject: Help in identifying chip... In-Reply-To: <4557D216.A9C20742@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200611111800.kABI0919063718@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4557D216.A9C20742@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45577114.29373.1C00A3C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2006 at 18:01, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I will happily accept being corrected but the block diagram implies that it is > not possible to use an external ROM for the 8041A, so you may be stuck with > whatever is fixed in the internal ROM, which would make them more-or-less > useless. Perhaps the D8041C differs from the 8041A (?). If you look on the www.datasheets.org website and search for the "upd8041", you'll find a nice datasheet. It's a 1K mask-programmed ROM with 64 bytes of RAM MPU. This agrees with what's in my Intel "Peripheral Design Handbook". FWIW, there's a sample application (controlling a dot-matrix printer" using the 8041 in the PDH. There is no memory expansion capability with the 8041, unlike the 8048. Intel packaged up the 8041 with some pre-programmed masks and sold them as other chips. For example, the 8292 GPIB controller is nothing more than an 8041 with Intel's own code. Less'n you can identify what the 8041s you have were programmed with, they're not going to be very useful. Cheers, Chuck > > http://www.datasheetarchive.com is pretty good as a free datasheet source. > I was just looking up datasheets for a bunch of microcontrollers > (8741,80C32,8751...) a few days ago. Sometimes you have to widen the search. > For example, in your case, "D8041C" produces no match, but "8041" does. > Unfortunately they have moved to Acrobat 6 pdfs for some scans, making a lot > of the datasheets unreadable to those using older browsers. I was just trying > to get > data for the 68HC11. It's there but I can't display it. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 12 21:15:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:15:00 -0600 Subject: OT Monitor glass question Message-ID: <4557E334.5040102@oldskool.org> I found what I thought would make a nice spare Trinitron monitor, but there is a tiny pinhole chunk of the glass chipped out on the surface, about maybe 1.5 mm deep with a diameter of 4mm. Against better judgement, I switched it on (from a safe distance) and it appears to function properly. My question is, how stable is it? Other than the visual defect, is it safe to operate the monitor, or should I be worried that it will swiftly implode at any moment? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 12 21:30:44 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:30:44 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <4557E6E4.1000005@mindspring.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > I pulled all boards from the 11/44 backplane and used an eraser > to clean all the contact fingers. Then I vacuumed the slots. > After wiping the boards clean of any small particles, I reseated > the boards ... the system still shows the same problem, the RUN > LED stays on and I don't get the >>> prompt. > > Then I swapped the CTRL (M7095) board. ^P gives me the >>> again. > However, "H" (halt) gives the response "?Failed to halt". > The "T" (selftest) command seems OK, the LED on the MFM board is > briefly ON. As the MFM board was also suggested to be causing > problems, I replaced the MFM board. > > Now the RUN LED stays OFF! However, I get an other problem. > The VT100 displays: > CONSOLE > ?22 CP HUNG > > I can enter the T and the H command. That works fine. > But, for example, an E (examine) command gives the ?22CP HUNG. > > When I install the original MFM board again, the RUN LED stays > ON, but the "E 2" command gives the response > " P 00000002 000001" > and the H command says "?Failed to halt". > According to the documentation you can do EXAMine commands > while the system is running, but you can not do a DEPosit. > Proof: I entered "D 2 2" and the response is "?Halt CP". > > So, one MFM board gives "?22 CP HUNG", but the RUN LED is OFF, > the other MFM board allows examine, but the RUN LED stays ON, > and you can not halt the processor. > I am still reading, but give these symptoms perhaps clues? > Well, that's kind of a bummer that it wasn't just a dirty contact. What I'd do at this point is verify all the P/S voltages are within spec, and then pull all the boards that are not necessary (FPU, CACHE, and any UNIBUS I/O) for basic system operation. Run with just the base CPU and a memory card. I'd try the exam and deposit commands with the /TB (take bus) option to see if you can access memory directly (you still have to be able to halt the CPU). If the behavior is still not normal, try the CPU microstep commands and see if you can step thru the microcode cycle by cycle, and that the flow makes sense (the microflows are in the printset). From looking at the prints the RUN signal is just a FF triggered by a one shot on the CPU control board. For either board combo (the one that never comes out of RUN, or the one that stays in RUN) I'd back track thru the logic too see if I could find something wrong. Sorry, but I haven't had this kind of behavior in my 11/44, so can't suggest a more specific place to look. Don From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 12 22:24:01 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:24:01 -0800 Subject: Help in identifying chip... In-Reply-To: <4557D216.A9C20742@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert ---snip--- > >I will happily accept being corrected but the block diagram implies that it >is >not possible to use an external ROM for the 8041A, so you may be stuck with >whatever is fixed in the internal ROM, which would make them more-or-less >useless. Perhaps the D8041C differs from the 8041A (?). > Hi Brent You are right, I stand corrected, the 8041 can not be connected to an external EPROM. The 8041 can but not the 8041. I recall doing a project once but I must have been using a 8741. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free trip! http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 12 23:36:43 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floating point unit on Ebay for PDP8 In-Reply-To: <45577A5E.1060607@msm.umr.edu> References: <45577A5E.1060607@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Nov 2006, jim stephens wrote: > there is an FPP-12 on ebay that expires tomorrow (Monday at 9am) It > looks to be in excellent > condition with documentaition. Hmmm... I wonder how much effort would be required to replicate this in FPGA to drop into a PDP8e or somesuch. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 13 00:17:45 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 01:17:45 -0500 Subject: Odd video problem References: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <001201c706eb$7093bcc0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Odd video problem > My guess for intermittent troubles would be a loose connector. I had to > replace the DE-15 on my 2A monitor's cable for that very reason. > > I'd so like to find one or more reasonably priced 17" mono VGA monitors > these days... > > -Toth I have the computer connected to a KVM that goes to a 17" SAMTRON, I can check the cables but I don't think any are loose. The 386/40 is also connected to a KVM if that matters. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 13 05:34:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:34:22 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <4551B812.3000603@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45504BE9.2030803@yahoo.co.uk> <45508F8D.4604.11FBBD2@cclist.sydex.com> <4551B812.3000603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4558583E.10205@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > That's the Linux picture too - it must be worse for the Windows guys. Not my Linux picture. My fileserver has been a 400MB installation of a commercial distro because I never bothered to install all the graphical stuff (not needed on a fileserver). And distributions like gentoo let you easily build your own. Gentoo comes as a <32MB image that boots and then starts compiling itself, sucking down sources as necessary. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Nov 13 05:48:06 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:48:06 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <4557E6E4.1000005@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Don wrote: > Well, that's kind of a bummer that it wasn't just a dirty contact. > > What I'd do at this point is verify all the P/S voltages are > within spec, and then pull all the boards that are not > necessary (FPU, CACHE, and any UNIBUS I/O) for basic system > operation. Run with just the base CPU and a memory card. > > I'd try the exam and deposit commands with the /TB (take bus) > option to see if you can access memory directly (you still > have to be able to halt the CPU). > > If the behavior is still not normal, try the CPU microstep > commands and see if you can step thru the microcode cycle by > cycle, and that the flow makes sense (the microflows are in > the printset). > > From looking at the prints the RUN signal is just a FF > triggered by a one shot on the CPU control board. For either > board combo (the one that never comes out of RUN, or the one > that stays in RUN) I'd back track thru the logic too see if I > could find something wrong. > > Sorry, but I haven't had this kind of behavior in my 11/44, > so can't suggest a more specific place to look. > > Don Yes, I also kind-a hoped that cleaning the fingers would correct the problem. I actually did think of the power supply, but didn't do any measurements for 3 reasons. 1. the BA11-A is still in the H960, only top lid is removed 2. I read about the "reputation" of the 5-fold switcher PSU ... 3. I read the documentation ... Regarding reason #3, the System Tech manual says on page 3-10 that the CPU only needs the +5.1V power supply. I was thinking that if I get anything on the VT100, that +5.1V must be present. So, I did not check that! BTW, I wonder if the table 3-7 is correct. Doesn't the CIM (M7090) need +/- 12 or 15 V. for the RS-232 signals? Or the MFM, I'd need to check the schematics. I did try with FPU removed, and I did read that you can run the 11/44 without CACHE. I will try that too this evening. And running without UBI didn't even occur to me! The memory has dedicated slots, so it is not accessed through the UBI module? I will try the /TB option, but I understand that if I can't halt the CPU, the /TB option will not help much ... Anyway, thanks for the tips, Don! I will try the system without FPU, CACHE, UBI and just one memory module installed. To get a running CPU that can be halted, I assume you can even run the 11/44 without *any* memory modules? OK, to do EXAM/DEP a memory module is useful :-) If all this fails, I guess I will need to pull out the scope, as I assume that microcode stepping will not work eitehr as long as you can not halt the CPU ... Oh well, something good has come from this. I updated the 11/44 pages on my site a little :-) thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 13 08:55:52 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 06:55:52 -0800 Subject: Help in identifying chip... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: correction! >From: "dwight elvey" > >>From: Brent Hilpert >---snip--- >> >>I will happily accept being corrected but the block diagram implies that >>it is >>not possible to use an external ROM for the 8041A, so you may be stuck >>with >>whatever is fixed in the internal ROM, which would make them more-or-less >>useless. Perhaps the D8041C differs from the 8041A (?). >> > >Hi Brent >You are right, I stand corrected, the 8041 can not be connected >to an external EPROM. The 8041 can but not the 8041. I recall OOops! should have read " The 8048 can but not the 8041." Dwight >doing a project once but I must have been using a 8741. >Dwight > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free >trip! >http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline > _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 13 09:25:41 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:25:41 -0600 Subject: old DEC gear wanted References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> <4554E89B.8020605@compsys.to> Message-ID: <00be01c70737$ff28fb20$6700a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Jay - did you get my reply. Why did you want to contact me? Yes, I did get your reply... I'm swamped... I will get back to you soon as I get a moment of time. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 13 09:30:20 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:30:20 -0600 Subject: VCF 9.0 References: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Wayne wrote.... > It's hard to believe that you can't get a thread going about VCF on this > list. Don't know if that says something about the show, the list or > both. In the old days there was a lot of excitement - daily reports, > links to pictures, etc. Now, almost nothing. I think it has to do mostly with the phase variance of peoples schedules and attention spans. There's times when a post gets made that normally everyone would chime in on, and no one does. The opposite also occurs. Evan wrote... > I think that's partially because Sellam left this list, and partially > because some key exhibitors now hang out more often at Erik Klein's forum. Nah, definitely not. Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Nov 13 10:27:29 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:29 -0500 Subject: RA82 questions In-Reply-To: <200611060153.55556.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200611060153.55556.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200611131127.30417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Has no one on here used RA8x disks enough to comment on my problem? Pat On Monday 06 November 2006 01:53, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > So, Jay's talk about RA81's spurred me on to work on testing out my > RA82 disks. I've got an SA482 which has 4 RA82's, and drive 0 seems > to work just fine, after I unlocked the disk heads. :) > > The other three aren't working as well though, it seems. > > One seems to give a fault when it spins up, but after it spins up, > runs the on-board diagnostics ok. > > The relevent log of the on-board diagnostics session are below > (starting from when I pressed the "RUN" button to spin it up): > ------------------------------------------------------------- > RA82> FRONT PANEL FUNCTION IN PROGRESS > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1B > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1C > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1D > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:1E > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST: SUBTEST:20 > %RA82-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 ERROR:4B UNIT:001 > REFER TO SERVICE MANUAL > > RA82> > %RA82-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 ERROR:FE UNIT:001 > REFER TO SERVICE MANUAL > > RA82> RUN DIAG > > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:04 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:05 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:06 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1A > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1C > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1D > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1E > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:21 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:22 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:25 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:26 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:27 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:28 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:29 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:2A > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0A > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0F > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:10 > %RA82-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0E > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking at the manual, error 4B is "index pulse error" and FE is > "Slave speed check timeout". Considering that they only occur when > the disk is first spun up, is it maybe really ok, but the disk doesn't > spin up as fast as the logic wants it to? The errors seem to be > consistent (they happen each time I power up the drive). > > Has anyone seen something like this before, and is it something that I > should be worried about? > > The service manual seems to suggest that the servo module or > microprocessor module could be bad. > > Thanks, > > Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 13 05:48:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:48:36 -0600 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> <00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45585B94.4020108@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Wayne wrote.... >> It's hard to believe that you can't get a thread going about VCF on this >> list. Don't know if that says something about the show, the list or >> both. In the old days there was a lot of excitement - daily reports, >> links to pictures, etc. Now, almost nothing. > > I think it has to do mostly with the phase variance of peoples schedules > and attention spans. There's times when a post gets made that normally > everyone would chime in on, and no one does. The opposite also occurs. My suspicions: 1) Any given VCF is way too far away for the majority to attend. 2) Pictures and technical info on systems can be found on the 'net already. 3) Discussions (and banter) with system owners can be regularly be had here already. ... hence for most people a VCF discussion just serves no purpose, unlike in the early days when it was something new and different to talk about (and hence popular discussion even amongst non-attendees) I don't think there's anything wrong with the show(s), or with the list - it's just that now it's an 'old' concept there's less interest from the people who won't be / weren't there. That's not to say that there's *no* interest of course, so I am surprised that there aren't more reports following a show given that it'd seem natural for a lot of people to want to tell a story of their experiences there. cheers Jules (waiting to see if there really is a 4GB file size limit in NTFS) -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 13 05:55:33 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:55:33 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <4556CC7B.90308@oldskool.org> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45555FBB.8070600@oldskool.org> <4555CC68.8030703@yahoo.co.uk> <4556CC7B.90308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45585D35.6060404@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Hmm, not so sure. This laptop's running at 266MHz with 192MB of memory >> and Openoffice under Linux really struggles[1]; I could believe that a > > Stop right there. Openoffice is the source of that bloat; not a good > example for blaming the OS in the previous example. Run ps to see how > bad the damage is. Oh, I know it is - but so is MS Word, so it seems fair to compare one bloated word processor with another :-) My point was really that I can believe that a 'modern' word processor could bring a circa-300MHz machine to its knees easily enough. So I'm not really blaming the OS at all, just the wp software (except that in the Word case, it's still Microsoft's fault :-) cheers Jules -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From vrs at msn.com Mon Nov 13 11:43:58 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:43:58 -0800 Subject: VCF 9.0 References: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne><00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45585B94.4020108@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" > My suspicions: > > 1) Any given VCF is way too far away for the majority to attend. That's why we're interested :-). > 2) Pictures and technical info on systems can be found on the 'net > already. > 3) Discussions (and banter) with system owners can be regularly be had > here already. Maybe the show talk all happened somewhere else, and I missed it? > ... hence for most people a VCF discussion just serves no purpose, unlike > in the early days when it was something new and different to talk about > (and hence popular discussion even amongst non-attendees) I thought there were going to be some cool workshops and stuff. Didn't anyone build anything at the workshops? Or maybe everyone did, so it didn't seem like a big deal? > I don't think there's anything wrong with the show(s), or with the list - > it's just that now it's an 'old' concept there's less interest from the > people who won't be / weren't there. Surely there's still *something* controversial or interesting about them! Vince From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Nov 13 11:57:39 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:57:39 -0500 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: References: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> <00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45585B94.4020108@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061113125545.021877f0@xlisper.com> >I thought there were going to be some cool workshops and stuff. Didn't >anyone build anything at the workshops? Or maybe everyone did, so it >didn't seem like a big deal? I built both the Replica 1 SE (and got it signed by Woz!) and the ELF 2K. Both projects were fun and resulted in working boards. I'm now in the process of adding some of the optional parts to my ELF 2K (like the serial port and EPROM). Unfortunately, I missed the Apple 30th celebration because it happened at the same time as the ELF workshop. :-( From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 13 11:37:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:37:16 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 16 on ePay Message-ID: <45583CCC.29669.1F1C673B@cclist.sydex.com> Just thought I'd drop a note to the list that I've got a TRS-80 Model 16 on eBay, item 320048603503. Thanks, Chuck From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Nov 13 12:16:15 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:16:15 +0100 Subject: RA82 questions References: <200611060153.55556.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200611131127.30417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Pat wrote: > Has no one on here used RA8x disks enough to comment on my problem? Well, I assumed there are a lot of people that know more, but I can only say the obvious things. Does the spindle have a lot of friction or can it run freely when the belt is "untensioned" ? I don't knwo if you are allowed to rotate the spindle in any direction, and if it is better to lock the head first ... Is the drive belt (motor - spindle) tensioned, and tensioned at the correct tension, whatever that may be ...? - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Nov 13 13:43:34 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:43:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <4558CAE6.6080900@mindspring.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Don wrote: >> What I'd do at this point is verify all the P/S voltages are >> within spec, and then pull all the boards that are not >> necessary (FPU, CACHE, and any UNIBUS I/O) for basic system >> operation. Run with just the base CPU and a memory card. > > Regarding reason #3, the System Tech manual says on page 3-10 > that the CPU only needs the +5.1V power supply. I was thinking > that if I get anything on the VT100, that +5.1V must be present. > So, I did not check that! BTW, I wonder if the table 3-7 is > correct. Doesn't the CIM (M7090) need +/- 12 or 15 V. for the > RS-232 signals? Or the MFM, I'd need to check the schematics. I was thinking more along the lines of excess noise/ripple on a supply, not that it had completely failed. If the supplies (+/-15V, +/-12V, +5V) are out of whack the DC OK led will go off, but if one of them (like 5V) is noisy, it could result in intermittent logic operation but still indicate DC OK. > I did try with FPU removed, and I did read that you can run the > 11/44 without CACHE. I will try that too this evening. > And running without UBI didn't even occur to me! The memory has > dedicated slots, so it is not accessed through the UBI module? Maybe I should have been clearer; I meant UNIBUS I/O modules (like a disk controller) not the UBI module. AFAIK you can only remove the CIS set, the FPP, and the CACHE module and still have the CPU be in a runnable condition. The UBI module (M7098?) is not optional. Don From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 13 14:41:49 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:41:49 +0200 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I have followed this list for some time now. I collect, restore and repair Motorola MVME computers. I'm just wondering can I find some help or (MVME)friends in here. For example, does anyone have/know about a MVME360 SMD disk controller. Motorola docs and OS's (System V/68) support it. Never seen one though. I have controllers and disks for MFM, ESDI and SCSI and now I'm looking for SMD controller and disks. BR, Matti. _________________________________________________________________ Uutiset ja kasvot uutisten takaa. MSN Search, t?yden palvelun hakukone. http://search.msn.fi From spliffrd at inch.com Mon Nov 13 15:09:35 2006 From: spliffrd at inch.com (mmelnick) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:09:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <200611131804.kADI3uCa096310@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611131804.kADI3uCa096310@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061113160625.U27188@shell.inch.com> I just found a cheap NCR monitor mv0951a in a trashbin. Really small and compact so I snatched/saved it and brought it to the lab. Seems to be VGA but when i bent down to plug it in, I noticed it had a non-standard AC plug with 3 small blades! wtf? no one here recognizes it. I'm googling now. It would be a great little lab monitor if it's not 220v or some alien design. -Matt spliffrd at inch.com spliffrd.livejournal.com On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: lisadraw (Jules Richardson) > 2. Re: VCF 9.0 (Vincent Slyngstad) > 3. Re: VCF 9.0 (David Betz) > 4. TRS-80 Mod 16 on ePay (Chuck Guzis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:55:33 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: lisadraw > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <45585D35.6060404 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Hmm, not so sure. This laptop's running at 266MHz with 192MB of memory >>> and Openoffice under Linux really struggles[1]; I could believe that a >> >> Stop right there. Openoffice is the source of that bloat; not a good >> example for blaming the OS in the previous example. Run ps to see how >> bad the damage is. > > Oh, I know it is - but so is MS Word, so it seems fair to compare one bloated > word processor with another :-) My point was really that I can believe that a > 'modern' word processor could bring a circa-300MHz machine to its knees easily > enough. > > So I'm not really blaming the OS at all, just the wp software (except that in > the Word case, it's still Microsoft's fault :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > -- > And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas > Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:43:58 -0800 > From: "Vincent Slyngstad" > Subject: Re: VCF 9.0 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > From: "Jules Richardson" >> My suspicions: >> >> 1) Any given VCF is way too far away for the majority to attend. > > That's why we're interested :-). > >> 2) Pictures and technical info on systems can be found on the 'net >> already. >> 3) Discussions (and banter) with system owners can be regularly be had >> here already. > > Maybe the show talk all happened somewhere else, and I missed it? > >> ... hence for most people a VCF discussion just serves no purpose, unlike >> in the early days when it was something new and different to talk about >> (and hence popular discussion even amongst non-attendees) > > I thought there were going to be some cool workshops and stuff. Didn't > anyone build anything at the workshops? Or maybe everyone did, so it > didn't seem like a big deal? > >> I don't think there's anything wrong with the show(s), or with the list - >> it's just that now it's an 'old' concept there's less interest from the >> people who won't be / weren't there. > > Surely there's still *something* controversial or interesting about them! > > Vince > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:57:39 -0500 > From: David Betz > Subject: Re: VCF 9.0 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061113125545.021877f0 at xlisper.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >> I thought there were going to be some cool workshops and stuff. Didn't >> anyone build anything at the workshops? Or maybe everyone did, so it >> didn't seem like a big deal? > > I built both the Replica 1 SE (and got it signed by Woz!) and the ELF > 2K. Both projects were fun and resulted in working boards. I'm now in > the process of adding some of the optional parts to my ELF 2K (like > the serial port and EPROM). Unfortunately, I missed the Apple 30th > celebration because it happened at the same time as the ELF workshop. :-( > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:37:16 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: TRS-80 Mod 16 on ePay > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <45583CCC.29669.1F1C673B at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Just thought I'd drop a note to the list that I've got a TRS-80 Model > 16 on eBay, item 320048603503. > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 33 > ************************************** > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 13 15:29:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:29:01 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <20061113160625.U27188@shell.inch.com> References: <200611131804.kADI3uCa096310@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20061113160625.U27188@shell.inch.com> Message-ID: <4558731D.30626.1FF09881@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2006 at 16:09, mmelnick wrote: > I just found a cheap NCR monitor mv0951a in a trashbin. Really small and > compact so I snatched/saved it and brought it to the lab. Seems to be VGA > but when i bent down to plug it in, I noticed it had a non-standard AC > plug with 3 small blades! wtf? Take a look here: http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm#plugs I assume it's not one of the twist-lock varieties. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 15:34:50 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:34:50 +1300 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061113125545.021877f0@xlisper.com> References: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> <00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45585B94.4020108@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.2.20061113125545.021877f0@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/06, David Betz wrote: > I built both the Replica 1 SE (and got it signed by Woz!) and the ELF > 2K. Very nice. I would have liked to have made a Replica 1 SE and gotten it signed. There's a rumor going around here that Woz is going to traverse to South Pole next year, so perhaps then. > Both projects were fun and resulted in working boards. Even better. > I'm now in the process of adding some of the optional parts to my ELF 2K > (like the serial port and EPROM). I have that add-on board on my Elf2K. I like it a lot. I don't know if you've dug deeply into ElfOS, but there's a v3 Z-machine for it (v5 is just too large to work on a machine with 32K of RAM without some serious swapping of impure as well as pure portions of the game file). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 15:42:18 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:42:18 +1300 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: References: <00a101c70486$82c69690$6501a8c0@Wayne> <00e101c70738$a3c554d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45585B94.4020108@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.2.20061113125545.021877f0@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/14/06, David Betz wrote: > > I built both the Replica 1 SE (and got it signed by Woz!) and the ELF > > 2K. > > Very nice. I would have liked to have made a Replica 1 SE and gotten > it signed. There's a rumor going around here that Woz is going to > traverse to South Pole next year, so perhaps then. I guess it's more than a rumor... http://blog.wired.com/cultofmac/2006/07/woz_to_drive_hy.html?entry_id=1530825 -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 13 16:16:01 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:16:01 -0800 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? Message-ID: > For example, does anyone have/know about a MVME360 SMD disk controller. > Motorola docs and OS's (System V/68) support it. > Never seen one though. >From memory, they are OEMed cards from Interphase. I have a bunch in storage. Probably time to start selling off the VME stuff. Someone has been bugging me about buying the PPC 750 system I have. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Nov 13 16:27:45 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 23:27:45 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4558CAE6.6080900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Don wrote: > I was thinking more along the lines of excess noise/ripple on a > supply, not that it had completely failed. If the supplies (+/-15V, > +/-12V, +5V) are out of whack the DC OK led will go off, but if one > of them (like 5V) is noisy, it could result in intermittent logic > operation but still indicate DC OK. Ok, I did some tests. Still without the VOM or scope ... > > And running without UBI didn't even occur to me! The memory has > > dedicated slots, so it is not accessed through the UBI module? > Maybe I should have been clearer; I meant UNIBUS I/O modules (like > a disk controller) not the UBI module. AFAIK you can only remove the > CIS set, the FPP, and the CACHE module and still have the CPU be in > a runnable condition. The UBI module (M7098?) is not optional. LOL - yes, I found that out this evening! I will write down my findings. They might be useful in the future ... This is (was) my 11/44 backplane "usage": slot pos board 1 a-b M7090 CIM c-f empty 2 a-f empty 3 a-f M7093 FP11-F 4 a-f M7094 data path 5 a-f M7095 ctrl 6 a-f M7096 MFM 7 a-f M7097 cache 8 a-f M7098 UBI 9 a-f M8722 22-bit ECC 10 a-f M8743 MS11-P 11 a-f empty 12 a-f empty 13 a-f Quadrasync E 14 a-b M9202 (to next backplane) c-f G7273 Note the two different memory boards ... this system was working fine! As first test, I pulled everything, except slot 1, 4, 5, 6. Slot 13 has in position c-d a G7273, and slot 14 has in a-b the M9302, and c-d a G7273. Result: RUN led is OFF (hurray), but I get "?CP didn't start" and the following output on my entries at the >>> prompt: >>> h ?Already halted >>> t/e ?Parity error Test #2, inspired by the "parity error" message, I 'added' slot 9. Power up the system. RUN led is still OFF, these are the messages: (Console V3.40C) (Program) (Console) ?CP didn't start >>> t/e ?Parity error Ok, the memory board does not add problems, nor does it take a problem away. I leave it installed, and 'add' slot 9, UBI ... Power up again, the RUN led is still OFF. These are the messages: (Console V3.40C) (Program) (Console) Halted at 165020 >>> t/e ?Already halted That last response takes a few seconds, so the test needs some time! Then I tried the following: >>> e 1000 P 00010000 000011 >>> d 1000 123456 >>> e 1000 P 00010000 123456 It's all looking great now! The "Halted at 165020" is because of how the switch on the CTRL (M7095) is set, and how the console switch is set (HALT). If the console switch is set to CONT the line following (Console) is "Halted at 165714". Address 165020 is a familiar address, it is the start address of the PROM to start the CPU *with* diagnostics. I always use that address on my 11/34! Then I 'added' the cache option (M7097). The system is still fine, no matter how the 2 switches on the cache module are set (forced generation of misses). Adding the FP11-F still gives a healthy system. Just 2 boards left from the point where I started, the Quadrasync E and the second memory board. I chose to install the second memory board first. Power on ... RUN led stays ON (!), console printout is not what it should be, allthough a prompt appears when I hit ^P. Entering "d 1000 55" returns the "?Halt CP" message. When I remove that second memory board all is back to "normal"! I have not had the time to add the Quadrasync E board (leaving the 2nd memory board out of the system of course, and I have not yet made any measurements ... I know, I should! But I start guessing that the +/-12V perhaps has an issue. That might explain (?) the problem when the 2nd memory board is added, but why is the first memory board OK? Perhaps just the logic on that 2nd memory board died, and hangs the system (not the UNIBUS as the memory is *not* on the UNIBUS!). Note, the 2 memory boards are different, but the system was in productive operational condition at a company in that configuration. The +/-12V "issue" (if there is one) also might explain why the FAULT light is always ON on the RL02. That was also in perfect order till a week ago ... So, Don ... cache is indeed optional, UBI (as I found out) is not!! Tomorrow I will check the power supply voltages. +5.1V is expected to be OK, but the +/-12V ... hmmm, how come that the RS-232 signals to and from the VT100 are working ...? thanks! (a happier looking) Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 13 16:48:06 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:48:06 -0600 Subject: lisadraw In-Reply-To: <45585D35.6060404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200611071921.OAA07952@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20061108155958.03cc51b8@mail.30below.com> <200611090004.TAA06773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45555FBB.8070600@oldskool.org> <4555CC68.8030703@yahoo.co.uk> <4556CC7B.90308@oldskool.org> <45585D35.6060404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4558F626.2020105@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh, I know it is - but so is MS Word, so it seems fair to compare one That's a misconception. I am not a Microsoft sympathizer :-) but I don't like incorrect information perpetuated. On my Office 2003, firing up Office and loading a 30-page document, I can see it is currently using 32MB resident with 16MB stored in virutal. 48MB is pretty darn good considering the features I'm getting, and it's less than OpenOffice uses. > bloated word processor with another :-) My point was really that I can > believe that a 'modern' word processor could bring a circa-300MHz > machine to its knees easily enough. All my 300MHz-era machines have at least 192MB of RAM, so I can't see that happening :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Nov 13 16:57:18 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:57:18 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><4558CAE6.6080900@mindspring.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <005f01c70777$12026d00$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Gooijen, Henk" >So, Don ... cache is indeed optional, UBI (as I found out) is not!! >Tomorrow I will check the power supply voltages. +5.1V is expected >to be OK, but the +/-12V ... hmmm, how come that the RS-232 signals >to and from the VT100 are working ...? Because the VT100 will accept valid signals down to about +/- 3V before it gets confused (a lot of people get caught out on PC serial ports, as they don't usually drive to the full RS232 levels, and some kit needs the full level). Jim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 13 16:51:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:51:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <20061113010957.68094.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 12, 6 05:09:57 pm Message-ID: > > that f/h card being an IDE or MFM? Did IbM even make I meant the ST412 (MFM encoded) + floppy drive interface card that went into the original PC/AT. It was actually a Western Digital card I think > an IDE card? I really should know the answer to that... Not that I've seen... -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 17:56:02 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:56:02 -0600 Subject: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006201c7077f$4674a8c0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:52 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Re: PC/XT 286 was Re: PC/AT overclocking > > > > > that f/h card being an IDE or MFM? Did IbM even make > > I meant the ST412 (MFM encoded) + floppy drive interface card > that went into the original PC/AT. It was actually a Western > Digital card I think > > > an IDE card? I really should know the answer to that... > > Not that I've seen... > No, no IDE cards, they did make an ISA SCSI card though. I forget what the p/n is atm. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 18:22:39 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:22:39 +1300 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <005f01c70777$12026d00$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4558CAE6.6080900@mindspring.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005f01c70777$12026d00$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: On 11/14/06, Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >So, Don ... cache is indeed optional, UBI (as I found out) is not!! > >Tomorrow I will check the power supply voltages. +5.1V is expected > >to be OK, but the +/-12V ... hmmm, how come that the RS-232 signals > >to and from the VT100 are working ...? > > Because the VT100 will accept valid signals down to about +/- 3V before it > gets confused (a lot of people get caught out on PC serial ports, as they > don't usually drive to the full RS232 levels, and some kit needs the full > level). I've run into that sort of situation before - we had a COMBOARD customer with an 11/750... everything worked in the machine except our board. Turns out that we really needed -15V from the Unibus and nothing else in the machine did, even though the console serial port "worked". Getting them to get their -15V PSU repaired got us up and running, too. -ethan From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Nov 13 19:49:26 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:49:26 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4558CAE6.6080900@mindspring.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <455920A6.4050008@mindspring.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Just 2 boards left from the point where I started, the Quadrasync E > and the second memory board. I chose to install the second memory > board first. Power on ... RUN led stays ON (!), console printout is > not what it should be, allthough a prompt appears when I hit ^P. > Entering "d 1000 55" returns the "?Halt CP" message. > When I remove that second memory board all is back to "normal"! By first memory board I infer that you mean the MS11-M M8722 256KB. This board requires both +5V for logic and +-12V for the memories. By second memory board I infer that you mean the MS11-P M8753 1MB. This board is 5V only; it does not require either +-12V or +-15V. I would have expected it to be the other way around (MS11-M does not work but the MS11-P does) but hey. It could be a stuck driver on the MS11-P that is pulling some memory/unibus control signals to ground, hanging the bus and cpu. > > I have not had the time to add the Quadrasync E board (leaving the > 2nd memory board out of the system of course, and I have not yet > made any measurements ... I know, I should! > But I start guessing that the +/-12V perhaps has an issue. That > might explain (?) the problem when the 2nd memory board is added, Not sure about that; if the 2nd memory board is the MS11-P, then it only uses +5V, so it should have no interaction with +/-12V. > but why is the first memory board OK? Perhaps just the logic on > that 2nd memory board died, and hangs the system (not the UNIBUS > as the memory is *not* on the UNIBUS!). > Note, the 2 memory boards are different, but the system was in > productive operational condition at a company in that configuration. > The +/-12V "issue" (if there is one) also might explain why the > FAULT light is always ON on the RL02. > That was also in perfect order till a week ago ... From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 14 00:06:03 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:06:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Odd video problem In-Reply-To: <001201c706eb$7093bcc0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> <001201c706eb$7093bcc0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: >> My guess for intermittent troubles would be a loose connector. I had to >> replace the DE-15 on my 2A monitor's cable for that very reason. >> >> I'd so like to find one or more reasonably priced 17" mono VGA monitors >> these days... > > I have the computer connected to a KVM that goes to a 17" SAMTRON, I can > check the cables but I don't think any are loose. The 386/40 is also > connected to a KVM if that matters. Does the KVM and its cables pass all 15 wires though? If not, that might be the cause. Do you make sure the KVM has the monitor switched to that computer before powering the computer up? -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 14 01:08:19 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 02:08:19 -0500 Subject: Odd video problem References: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> <001201c706eb$7093bcc0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <00b401c707bb$acd6b720$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Odd video problem > On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > > >> My guess for intermittent troubles would be a loose connector. I had to > >> replace the DE-15 on my 2A monitor's cable for that very reason. > >> > >> I'd so like to find one or more reasonably priced 17" mono VGA monitors > >> these days... > > > > I have the computer connected to a KVM that goes to a 17" SAMTRON, I can > > check the cables but I don't think any are loose. The 386/40 is also > > connected to a KVM if that matters. > > Does the KVM and its cables pass all 15 wires though? If not, that might > be the cause. Do you make sure the KVM has the monitor switched to that > computer before powering the computer up? > > -Toth I have not checked each pin on the cables to see if they are all connected (will check one tomorrow). Yes the KVM is switched to the machine before I power it up. Never had an issue with my newer machines (or the other 486 ones). From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Tue Nov 14 01:06:10 2006 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 23:06:10 -0800 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45596AE2.90702@worldnet.att.net> Matti Nummi wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have followed this list for some time now. > I collect, restore and repair Motorola MVME computers. > I'm just wondering can I find some help or (MVME)friends in here. > > For example, does anyone have/know about a MVME360 SMD disk controller. > Motorola docs and OS's (System V/68) support it. > Never seen one though. > > I have controllers and disks for MFM, ESDI and SCSI > and now I'm looking for SMD controller and disks. > > BR, > Matti. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Uutiset ja kasvot uutisten takaa. MSN Search, t?yden palvelun > hakukone. http://search.msn.fi > > Hi Matti, Welcome ................ Well there are some old MVME friends here. I still owe you for the help on my Delta system and V/68. I believe the early Delta systems use SMD drives. I recall a few that passed through different surplus operations here. (Seattle, WA USA) Many years ago. I'm still looking for a Motorola MVME 131 card for my VersaDos system, if you come by one. I will keep an eye out for the SMD cards. I still have my Delta system, + a VersaDos system, a VME10 (Partial), a few PowerPC systems, a early VME system and a 88000 MVME System. Just to round out the Motorola line A few 6800 systems . Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc 253-854-9601 PST 800-292-6370 PST g-wright at att.net From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 14 01:16:37 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 23:16:37 -0800 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <45585B94.4020108@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > ---snip--- > >That's not to say that there's *no* interest of course, so I am surprised >that there aren't more reports following a show given that it'd seem >natural for a lot of people to want to tell a story of their experiences >there. > Hi I was there on Saturday. I came mostly to here Woz talk and the stories about the early Apple's. Woz talked about his choice to use DRAM over static. He said it was size and cost. Fewer parts meant less cost. He also mentions that the early code was hand assembled. He stated that if one looked at the code on would see the occational jump to insert a patch to the code. I saw the exhibits as well. There was a smaller turnout this year then last year for exhibits. Marvin was there selling stuff and I think one or two others. The fellow from England was there with most of a Babage Engine. Larry Pazzolo had a Spere( sp? ) system but has not been able to find much docs. One fellow had a EC-1 doing the bouncing ball simulation. I don't think there was as much effort into the over powering exhibit that took prizes as last year. This could be a good thing. I thought that most of these tended to be too much on, " look at all the stuff I have " and not enough on restoration, preservation and history. I'm hoping that maybe in future years, these will get to be more important than fancy exhibits. I took pictures but haven't gotten around to up loading to my PC. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Use your PC to make calls at very low rates https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 9 09:10:00 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:10:00 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001b01c70411$20f794c0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > I wonder if there were any electrically-operated semaphore stations around > which pre-date wired telegraphy? Most countries had networks of optical > semaphores which could of course route a message (the original idea seems to > have cropped up in the 1600's) - but to my knowledge they were all manual and > only operable in daylight, despite electricity being available long before the > last ones closed (mid 1800's I think). However it seems strange if the > transition was made straight to wired telegraphy with no intermediate system > using electric light. > Well, I'd say that the reason is pretty simple; there was no electric light..., nor motors to run semaphores. The telegraph was the first incarnation of electrical signaling because it was the simplest, most basic of electrical devices. In fact, it was the first electrical device deployed on any scale. While we think of it as crude, it in fact required considerable engineering skill to refine. John From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 13:47:35 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:47:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: 4-way switches (was Re: New monitors on old machines) Message-ID: <20061109194735.3928.qmail@web60811.mail.yahoo.com> der Mouse said: > >> 7) Three way switch at the other enough of the hall. > > It's already on a three-way switch with the bottom of the stairs... > > do they make 4-way switches? > > Yes. You need two SPDTs (which you already have) plus as many DPDTs as > necessary to fill out the desired quota of switches (which means just > one of them, in your case). I've seen it done (at least for three > switches). House 4-way switches DO exist. They have 4 terminals (thus the [USA/NEMA] "4-way" designation). They preform the "normal"/"cris-cross" switching function. A quicky web search <"4-way" switches> got lots of answers, and you can buy these (new, sorry not 10 year old) devices. The first return from a yahoo search has a nifty animation on how this all works. The technology has been in use for quite some time (the house I grew up in used a 4-way switch in the 50's). The problem is that not many places stock the things (I looked on Home Depot's site to no avail). Basically the switch train is a bunch of exclusive-or's so that any switch can make the "sum" 1 (on), or 0 (off). I had to get a computer reference in there somewhere! If you do decide to do some wiring, be careful. There are lots of references on the web on the "how-to" aspects. Ob antique stuff: Yes, the house also (the part built in 1946) had knob & tube wiring. The other part (built in 1952) where the 4-way switch was had something resembling romex. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From root at parse.com Fri Nov 10 20:00:52 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:00:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gould K-450 Logic Analyzers Message-ID: <200611110200.kAB20qdA067712@amd64.ott.parse.com> If anyone is interested, I have a boatload of Gould logic analyzers; I've photographed the innards of the K-450 and have it displayed on my forsale page: www.parse.com/testeq I'm selling them for $5-$15 (other models too) local pickup in Kanata/Ontario/Canada. I might be convinced to ship them if you want them in quantity and you arrange for a truck... The "classic computer" part of the story is that they are 8086 based, with 192kB of EPROM (27128s) and 512kB of RAM (41256 chips). :-) The photos are fun, at the very least. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 10 20:24:43 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:24:43 -0500 Subject: PC/AT overclocking References: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com><45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com><45551347.50206@oldskool.org><4554A69B.31436.1119BFFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000501c70538$8d06f7a0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > > 8Mhz.... 10 Mhz... 12Mhz... 16Mhz... 22Mhz... *POOF* > > 0Mhz... This reminds me.., I had a .., hey! wait a minute... I *still* have a DX2-66 that I could run with a clock of 40Mhz during the winter..., when I kept the office temperature at 58 deg.. During the summer (it was un-airconditioned) I had to drop back to 33, else the CPU would lock up after 5-10 minutes of operation. John From vax at purdue.edu Fri Nov 10 21:09:44 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: "centronics" connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611102209.44706.vax@purdue.edu> On Friday 10 November 2006 20:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:08:46 -0500, 9000 VAX" wrote: > > > Might as well ask why ALL D shell connectors are referred to as > > > size B. > > > > All D shell connectors are not size B, only those with 25 pins - the > > I beleive there's also a DB44 (this being the high-density 3-row > version in a B-sized shell). Also DA26 and DC62 (there is no > high-density in a size D shell that I've ever seen). DD78 -- 4 rows of pins. Some IBM gear I have uses it for connection to a Bus & Tag "breakout" cable. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Nov 11 04:40:11 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:40:11 +0000 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com> <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4555A88B.7040209@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Al Hartman wrote: >> Harris Semiconductor made licensed 80286 CPU's. >> >> They made them in 16 and 20mhz versions. >> >> I used to sell systems made with them, and at the time the 386sx came >> out, a 286-20 was MUCH faster than a 386 20mhz... > > How is that possible? The 386 improved many instructions to run in > fewer clocks... > > Besides, I'd always take a 386-16 over a 286-20, because the 286-20 runs > protected mode applications at 0MHz ;-) I don't know, but I remember comparing two side-by-side and the 286 absolutely horsed the 386sx. IIRC it was about 15% faster - *really* noticable difference. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Nov 12 04:15:00 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 10:15:00 +0000 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <20061112010438.87290.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061112010438.87290.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4556F424.6060005@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > > --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > >>> I thought the overclocking craze on the >>> PC-AT was a lot more interesting, myself... >> Apparently on the AT model, you needed to have an >> early (1984) BIOS to make >> it work, but yeah, I know the CPUs in the one I have >> are 10MHz bumped down >> to 6. > > I overclocked the 286 in my ITT XTRA XP years ago (6 > - 8mhz woopy) by replacing the crystal. Worked fine, > slightly *noticeably* faster. Am not aware of a bios > dependency for this hack. In fact, later AT's had an 8 > mhz clock. > I'm a bit behind here. If y'all were talking about > raising it to some *other* ungodly speed, forgive the interference. I overclocked a ZX Spectrum by replacing the 14MHz crystal with a 17.73MHz one. Of course everything is derived from this, including video timings, so I needed to tweak my monitor up proportionately, and run a cassette player a little bit faster so the tape speed matched. It made Manic Miner extremely difficult. Gordon. From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Nov 12 18:16:56 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:16:56 -0800 Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... Message-ID: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> The RD53 drive in my 11/73 has finally gone to silicon heaven, after a brief resurrection. Given the reputation these drives seem to have, I'm not too surprised. So a few nights ago I dug through my stacks of ancient hard drives and found three possible candidates for replacement: - A Microscribe 6085, which seems to have the same drive geometry as an RD53 - Two Seagate ST-251s, which seem to be identical to an RD32 All of these are in "unknown" condition (I haven't used them in years), but spin up without making any evil noises and are recognized by the RQDX3 controller. To the best of my recollection, all three were formerly used in PCs. I've used zrqch0 (booted via vtserver) to format all three of these disks. In all three cases the formatting appears to be successful -- the drives format for a few minutes, then go through three verification stages for another 20-30 minutes. During this time I can hear the heads being stepped, and the drive access light blinks. At the end of the format no errors are reported. I'll note that in order to do the format on these drives, I had to go through the process manually (as opposed to the "AUTOFORMAT" mode of zrqch0) -- for the Microscribe this was because zrqch0 didn't recognize the drive (showed up as "unknown"), for the ST-251s this was because the fault tables could not be read off the drives. I suspect this may have something to do with the issue I'm seeing, but of course this is pure speculation. I've tried various permutations of the formatting options, but I've had no joy there. After formatting the drives, no other utilities seem to be able to make use any of the drives -- running the disk exerciser (zrqah0) fails after the first test step (and after a very small amount of disk activity) with an error similar to the below (this varies slightly based on the test being run): FATAL I/O ERROR * DISK 0 WENT OFFLINE * SUB_CODE: NO VOLUME MOUNTED OR DRIVE DISABLED BY SWITCH * COMMAND: READ_COMPARE Interestingly, 2.11BSD's 'disklabel' is able to partition and write the label to the disk. Mkfs, however, fails with: ra(0,0,0) error op=A2 sts=23 write error 3 Exit called I've tried this with two different RQDX3 controllers with the same results (and these controllers worked fine with my RD53 until it failed). Is there a magic step I'm missing? Is what I'm attempting to do (use non-DEC drives) not possible? Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks for any help here... Josh From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Nov 13 02:41:29 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:41:29 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I'm now the lucky owner of a Vax 4000-200. Apart from a bad TK70 drive (which I can get repaired in the UK ) Its fully working with 3 x RF 500Mb Drives (Two in a separate BA215 box) It boots VMS 3.2 and loads the network software. I even have all the license numbers for VMS 3.2, DW-MOTIF,TCPWARE, VAX CLUSTER & VOLSHAD What I don't have is the System password. The system was made in 1991 and had been out of use since 1998.00 I would like to preserve it as is, adding a contempory set of periperals (VT-100, LA-36 and so on) I don't want to replace the VMS or any of the other software. I have no option but to try and recover the system password. I'm not a hacker and have no idea how to go about breaking in. Anybody out there have any suggestions as to how to get in and recover the System password? Rod Smallwood From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Nov 13 13:27:44 2006 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:27:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF 9.0 Message-ID: <22875.208.255.229.66.1163446064.squirrel@wm2> I would like to write about the show, it can also serve as a good prep for my next podcast where I will be talking about it. So, you asked for it! This was my first time at the original VCF, and I have only been to one other, the VCFe 1.0 in 2001. This was also my first time to the Computer History Museum. My wife was able to go with me, which made the whole thing so much more enjoyable. She not only supports my hobby, but actually really enjoyed herself in the participation. Living in Florida, the flights / layovers were a bit on the extended side - not so bad getting there, but coming back. We left at 7pm Friday the 3rd, got to Dallas about 9:20pm with a 30-minute layover, then arrived in San Francisco at 2:30am (our time, 11:30pm PST). Not too bad, but as our original flight was delayed an hour and a half, we had to fly into San Francisco instead of San Jose. We were able to stick to the same schedule times pretty much, but the cab ride to the hotel turned into $100 for 25 miles. 150% of the meter because of going outside the 15 miles of that airport! But we made it and the Marriott was a nice little hotel with excellent rooms. And an excellent free breakfast buffet! Kudos to Continental for getting us there on American Airlines too. On the first day, Saturday the 4th, my wife and I were in the Replica 1 workshop at 10am and that was a lot of fun. Vince Briel was great, very helpful and good company; a funny guy too. Some guys in there were done in like 40 minutes I think! By noon, we hadn?t finished, but Vince said that we could come by his exhibit and / or he would be back at the room Sunday at 10am. At Noon, Bob Armstrong began his workshop building the VCF COSMAC Elf 2000 kit. Both of these kits are very well made and just were so fun to work on. It was so much like stepping back in time 30 years and being a hobbyist computer kit builder. Unfortunately, the Apple @ 30 / The Garage Years panel with Steve Wozniak and three other early Apple employees started at 1pm (Randy Wigginton, Daniel Kottke and Chris Espinosa), so we had to leave the Elf workshop early. I really didn?t want to seem rude to Bob and hoped we could be back in there after an hour at most. That would not happen, I think the entire panel discussion was about an hour and a half. My wife went back to work on the Elf after about an hour. The discussion was very lively and good. The stories were fun and I heard about a few things that I?d never heard before. Jef Raskin?s Apple 1 was there in a case, as well as at least two other Apple 1?s. Sellam was part host, but Bruce Draper of DigiBarn headed it up. Also ?Captain Crunch? was in one of the front rows (John Draper). He spoke a little too. Sellam gave away a Replica 1 (per Vince) based on a puzzle at the end. It was Steve Wozniak?s name with the letters jumbled (I forget what this type of puzzle is called, it was stated). I learned why at the bottom of e-mails I have received from Steve Wozniak, it says, ?TV is wake zone.? He likes these sort of puzzles. An aside, before I knew I would be able to go, I wrote Steve and asked if I could send my copy of ?iWoz? in a return postage paid package for him to sign, and he agreed. He?s a nice guy. Instead of course, I was able to get him to sign it in person, as well as the Replica 1 (I got Vince to sign it too) and I got a picture with him. I?m not a touchy-feely person, but he would stand up, and put his arm around you for the picture. This was pretty cool. Also in attendance was Andy Hertzfield, one of the members of the original Macintosh team (see folklore.org). Being a big Mac fan as well, that was pretty cool, but what struck me was that he was also sitting in one of the front rows and listening intently to the stories, especially to Steve. He was just having such a great time and you could see the admiration he had. No big surprise, but this was one of his heroes! Even though he has worked with him at times, probably even heard this stuff before, he was a big fan too. Anyway, what really struck me was that Steve Wozniak also greatly influenced the Mac! He didn?t work on it directly a lot perhaps, but his earlier examples of engineering and his methods and standards were embraced by these later guys. Steve Jobs absolutely pushed his own will on the aesthetics of the box and much of the user experience, but Steve Wozniak deserves more credit than perhaps I had given him before. He didn?t just design the Apple 1, Apple ][ and Disk ][, but influenced so much more. That insight just sparked in me during the discussion anyway. I was able to catch Andy at the door before he left and get a picture with him and tell him what a fan I was. By about 3pm, Steve began signing stuff, probably for almost an hour. I finally made it back to the workshop room where my wife was still working on the Elf. Most had left or finished, but Bob was still there and had helped Tamara quite a bit. She really enjoyed the workshops and soldering, etc. We didn?t finish the Elf until we got back home. We were able to check out the VCF exhibit and market place floor for an hour or so, then left with a friend we had met for dinner. We had a nice dinner and discussion with him into the evening. On Sunday, we met Vince back in the room at 10am and stayed there until about noon. Andre' LaMothe started his workshop building the XGameStation Pico Edition (didn?t have enough money to build all three!). We had lunch at the Museum where Sellam?s wife was selling snacks and wraps and sandwiches. At 1pm started the discussion group featuring Lee Felsenstein about the Processor Technology Sol-20 30th celebration. The panel also included Processor Technology employees Aram Attarian, Diane Ascher and Drew Rogge. Again, this was a lively and interesting discussion of story telling and Q & A. A Sol-20 provided by Stan Sieler of Allegro Consulting. was given away with a drawing at the end. This meeting was perhaps a third of the size of the Apple one. Sunday all around was much slower than Saturday. A few exhibitors and sellers had left after Saturday too. My wife and I didn?t get to go to the DigiBarn, but we spent a good hour or so checking out the visible storage. It was especially neat for me to see some classics ?big iron? up close like the IBM 360, Sage, CDC super computers and Cray?s. Let?s see, as far as exhibits go, pictures are better of course. I will have mine soon. The sellers had some good deals with better than eBay prices for a Z-100, a couple of Lisa?s with profiles, and common Atari?s and Commodores. There was much more to see and do than we did, but we had a great time. With three kids, just time alone with my wife for a weekend was nice, so we weren?t sweatin? it. Sorry for the little book, I hope this conveys a little bit more to some about the show. Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Nov 13 13:44:06 2006 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:44:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF 9.0 Message-ID: <33300.208.255.229.66.1163447046.squirrel@wm2> Oops, I meant Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn, not Bruce Draper. Also, on Sunday, the ?room? was the workshop room just off the front lobby of the museum. This is where all of the workshops were held. I will have my pictures up on my website soon. As far as our flight back, we hung out at the San Jose airport from about 6:00pm until 9:30pm, taking off at 10:00pm. We landed in Newark, NJ at about 6:00am EST (five hour flight). Had a two and a half hour lay-over, then two hours to Jacksonville, FL. We were pretty burned-out by then. Best everyone, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 15:41:34 2006 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 21:41:34 +0000 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) Message-ID: My 'excuse' was that I just got back from VCF 9, via western-Canada. I was a speaker at VCF 9, thoroughly enjoyed myself. Of particular note was meeting The Woz on the 30th anniverary of Apple, Lee Felsentein of SOL 20 fame, and a visit to the Digibarn in Snata Cruz, a brilliant creation of Bruce Damer, CEO of DigitalSpace. One amazing artifact was the Digi-comp 1 a creation out of the 60s. I have one and it made my heart go a flutter...All-in-all a great faire Sellam and others put on. Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. Happy computing! Murray-- ------------------ From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 08:47:31 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:47:31 -0500 Subject: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <000501c70538$8d06f7a0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: <45545984.19205.FECA1C0@cclist.sydex.com><45547CD4.6073.1076911D@cclist.sydex.com><45551347.50206@oldskool.org><4554A69B.31436.1119BFFC@cclist.sydex.com> <000501c70538$8d06f7a0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <4559D703.1060600@gmail.com> jwhitton wrote: >> 8Mhz.... 10 Mhz... 12Mhz... 16Mhz... 22Mhz... *POOF* >> >> 0Mhz... > > This reminds me.., I had a .., hey! wait a minute... I *still* have a DX2-66 > that I could run with a clock of 40Mhz during the winter..., when I kept the > office temperature at 58 deg.. During the summer (it was un-airconditioned) > I had to drop back to 33, else the CPU would lock up after 5-10 minutes of > operation. There was an AMD 586-133 (Am5x86-P75) that I could run at 200MHz in the winter with the room set to 50 degrees. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 14 08:54:57 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:54:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Overclocking not just PC/ATs was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <4556F424.6060005@gjcp.net> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Nov 12, 6 10:15:00 am" Message-ID: <200611141454.kAEEsvkM155068@floodgap.com> > I overclocked a ZX Spectrum by replacing the 14MHz crystal with a > 17.73MHz one. Of course everything is derived from this, including > video timings, so I needed to tweak my monitor up proportionately, and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What did you do exactly to accomplish this? > run a cassette player a little bit faster so the tape speed matched. > It made Manic Miner extremely difficult. I daresay even "manic." -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 09:02:49 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:02:49 -0500 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4555A88B.7040209@gjcp.net> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com> <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> <4555A88B.7040209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4559DA99.8020807@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Al Hartman wrote: >>> Harris Semiconductor made licensed 80286 CPU's. >>> >>> They made them in 16 and 20mhz versions. >>> >>> I used to sell systems made with them, and at the time the 386sx came >>> out, a 286-20 was MUCH faster than a 386 20mhz... >> >> How is that possible? The 386 improved many instructions to run in >> fewer clocks... >> >> Besides, I'd always take a 386-16 over a 286-20, because the 286-20 >> runs protected mode applications at 0MHz ;-) > > I don't know, but I remember comparing two side-by-side and the 286 > absolutely horsed the 386sx. IIRC it was about 15% faster - *really* > noticable difference. Did the 286 have a 287? Was there floating-point code in the application you were using? Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 14 09:19:34 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:19:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gould K-450 Logic Analyzers In-Reply-To: <200611110200.kAB20qdA067712@amd64.ott.parse.com> References: <200611110200.kAB20qdA067712@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: <200611141523.KAA06660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If anyone is interested, I have a boatload of Gould logic analyzers; > I've photographed the innards of the K-450 and have it displayed on > my forsale page: > I'm selling them for $5-$15 (other models too) local pickup in > Kanata/Ontario/Canada. Woo! I get out Ottawa way most weekends (though not this coming one) and would love to get hold of a logic analyzer. Do you have/include boot disks and pods? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Nov 14 09:56:20 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:56:20 +0100 Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... In-Reply-To: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> References: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> Message-ID: <20061114165620.3cd5bff6@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:16:56 -0800 Josh Dersch wrote: > Is what I'm attempting to do (use non-DEC drives) not possible? Any > ideas or suggestions? Do you have a VAXstation 2000 / MicroVAX 2000? You can use it to format (non DEC MFM) disks for use on a RQDX3. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 14 11:37:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:37:09 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-200 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:41:29 +0000. <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: If you look at the OpenVMS FAQ, it describes the procedure for resetting the system password from the console port. I did it for my VAXserver 4000/300 :-) and it worked like a charm. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 14 11:44:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:44:22 -0600 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) References: Message-ID: <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> Murray wrote.... > Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. > > Happy computing! Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 14 11:46:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:46:58 -0700 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 23:16:37 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > [...] Larry Pazzolo had a Spere( sp? ) system but > has not been able to find much docs. Is this the one mentioned in Collectible Microcomputers? If so, it was manufactured in Utah about 20 minutes north of where I live. I might be able to help in tracking down some information. Is Larry on this list? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 14 11:52:22 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:52:22 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c70815$a2e4d670$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> seeing Evan in May for VCF east. Just to clarify .... it's the event which people look forward to seeing .... not my ugly mug. :) -----Original Message----- From: Murray McCullough [mailto:c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:42 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) My 'excuse' was that I just got back from VCF 9, via western-Canada. I was a speaker at VCF 9, thoroughly enjoyed myself. Of particular note was meeting The Woz on the 30th anniverary of Apple, Lee Felsentein of SOL 20 fame, and a visit to the Digibarn in Snata Cruz, a brilliant creation of Bruce Damer, CEO of DigitalSpace. One amazing artifact was the Digi-comp 1 a creation out of the 60s. I have one and it made my heart go a flutter...All-in-all a great faire Sellam and others put on. Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. Happy computing! Murray-- ------------------ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 14 06:57:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:57:10 -0600 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Murray wrote.... >> Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. >> >> Happy computing! > > Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) So is there a VCF North yet? I think I'd try to haul a bunch of UK machines across the pond for that if there was, could be fun :-) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 14 12:02:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:02:24 -0700 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:46:58 -0700. Message-ID: Some more Sphere info: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 14 12:17:41 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:17:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jules Richardson > > Jay West wrote: > > Murray wrote.... > >> Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. > >> > >> Happy computing! > > > > Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) > > So is there a VCF North yet? I think I'd try to haul a bunch of UK machines > across the pond for that if there was, could be fun :-) > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) Cheers, eh! Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 12:20:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:20:24 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <455A08E8.4080109@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. >>> >>> Happy computing! >> >> Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) > > So is there a VCF North yet? I think I'd try to haul a bunch of UK > machines across the pond for that if there was, could be fun :-) There's a VCF East on the east coast of the US. Peace... Sridhar From kth at srv.net Tue Nov 14 12:57:07 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:57:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <005f01c70777$12026d00$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><4558CAE6.6080900@mindspring.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7DC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005f01c70777$12026d00$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <455A1183.7090204@srv.net> Jim Beacon wrote: >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > >>So, Don ... cache is indeed optional, UBI (as I found out) is not!! >>Tomorrow I will check the power supply voltages. +5.1V is expected >>to be OK, but the +/-12V ... hmmm, how come that the RS-232 signals >>to and from the VT100 are working ...? >> >> > >Because the VT100 will accept valid signals down to about +/- 3V before it >gets confused (a lot of people get caught out on PC serial ports, as they >don't usually drive to the full RS232 levels, and some kit needs the full >level). > >Jim. > > I once worked on a new system that had RS-232 levels operating at 0 and 5 volts. The old terminals, however, required at least -3 volts to work. Had to design and build a small amplifier to convert the levels for about 15 terminals (without using an external power supply for each one[*]). Yuck! [*] No external supply, due to a lack of available outlets, and the constant "I needed an outlet for ..., and I didn't think that was important ..." problems. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 14 12:59:01 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:59:01 -0500 Subject: imaging XENIX disks In-Reply-To: <20061110012458.93951.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061110012458.93951.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> I thought the Altos 586 was a Z-80 cpm machine or >> am I misremembering the >>> one I had ages ago, kind of a "diamond" shaped >> case IIRC >>> <:::::::::> >> >> It's 8086 based and runs Xenix. >> Yes, the case looks like a flat diamond from the >> front (photos on my site). >> >> Dave > > Sorry. I knew something made by Altos had a '186, but > it wasn't the 586/686. The 580 was the model with the Z80. Altos made a large number of Z80-based machines, not just the 580. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 14 13:09:20 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:09:20 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001601c70820$637b9e50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Do you mean Canada? VCF East (in New Jersey) is the shortest trip for you, other than VCF Europa (Munich) of course. -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) Jay West wrote: > Murray wrote.... >> Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. >> >> Happy computing! > > Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) So is there a VCF North yet? I think I'd try to haul a bunch of UK machines across the pond for that if there was, could be fun :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 14 13:57:38 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:57:38 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org> References: <001501c70378$38e29240$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2006, at 12:46 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I've done a bunch of work collecting utilities that will correct >> certain >> issues with old hardware or enhance certain capabilities (like get >> rid of >> snow and speed up scrolling on CGA and EGA cards, and stabilize/ >> speedup NEC >> v20 chips) Let me know if you need my help. > > Can you elucidate on "stabilize/speedup NEC V20 chips"? I thought > I had considerable experience working with 8088 clones (8086/NEC > V20/NEC V30) but I've never heard of such a procedure (or need)... Oh my. I'm sorry for jumping in, but I got VERY excited about V20 chips back in the day. They truly seemed like something for nothing! The V20 is a drop-in replacement for the 8088, basically a re-implemented 8088 that consumes less power and is a bit faster at the same clock rate. I don't recall exactly how much faster, but I seem to recall maybe 25%. It was certainly enough to be noticeable. On a 4.77MHz system, Norton's SI (system information) would give you a relative rating of (if I recall correctly) 1.7, where the 4.77MHz 8088 was 1.0. It wasn't really a 70% increase; that was due to the imperfections of the Norton benchmark. The V20 also has a 8080 emulation mode, and if you had the appropriate boot disk, you could run CP/M-80 on a V20-equipped PC. You had to execute a special instruction (again I don't recall the details...these are twenty-year-dormant neurons) to kick it into 8080 mode, and this was done by the CP/M bootstrap. It was a neat scheme! The V30 is basically the same thing, but is a drop-in replacement for the 8086. Though the technical details escaped me, I remember very well the feeling of excitement when I got that first V20, plugged it into my no-name 4.77MHz PC/XT clone, and noticed how much faster Turbo Pascal compiled my stuff. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 14 14:17:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:17:39 -0600 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> Bryan wrote... > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > Cheers, eh! Eh, it's a beauty eh. J From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 14 14:20:16 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:20:16 -0500 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. I have the need to read numerious boxes of IBM [PS/1?] 1meg format floppies, so they can be transfered to CD to rot forever :) Any help or direction will be appreciated. Thanks Bob From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Nov 14 14:22:18 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:22:18 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-200 References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002201c7082a$9576fbc0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> >From: "Rod Smallwood" >What I don't have is the System password. The system was made in 1991 >and had been out of use since 1998.00 It is well documented in the VMS manuals, which are available on the HP website. Jim. I From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 14 14:31:38 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:31:38 +0000 Subject: VAX 4000-200 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 13/11/06 08:41, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Its fully working with 3 x RF 500Mb Drives (Two in a separate BA215 > box) It boots VMS 3.2 and loads the network software. 3.2? I'd have thought 5.2 perhaps. > I'm not a hacker and have no idea how to go about breaking in. Anybody > out there have any suggestions as to how to get in and recover the > System password? Richard's already mentioned the VMS FAQ but here's the procedure in a nutshell: Shutdown or halt the system to get the >>> enter 'B/1 DIAx' to get to the SYSBOOT> prompt (DIAx is the boot disk) enter 'set uafalt 1' followed by 'cont'. Remember to press return after each one. After the system's booted you can log in as anything, it'll prompt for 2 passwords but just hit return. enter 'set proc/priv=all' enter 'set def sys$system' enter 'define sysuaf sys$system:sysuaf.dat' enter 'mc authorize' to get the UAF> prompt enter 'mo system/pass=password/nopwdlif' Enter 'exit' Enter 'mc sysgen' to get the SYSGEN> prompt Enter 'use current' Enter 'set uafalt 0' Enter 'write current' Enter 'exit' Enter '@sys$system:shutdown 0 shutdown yes no later yes none' to reboot Log in as system! Obviously there may be problems of a system password with no expiry (the '/nopwdlif' switch) if the machine is connected to the web, but by and large if the machine's connected to the web the system account is disabled anyway. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 14 14:35:26 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:35:26 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455A08E8.4080109@gmail.com> References: <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. >>>> >>>>Happy computing! >>> >>>Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) >>So is there a VCF North yet? I think I'd try to haul a bunch of UK >>machines across the pond for that if there was, could be fun :-) > >There's a VCF East on the east coast of the US. Yes, there is... unforch, "east" != "north". ;-) For me, VCF East is at least a 13-hour drive... and VCF-MW was almost 9. I'd posited in the past that I'd be happy to help organize a VCF-C (Canada) if it were somewhere close to me in Ontario (read: Sault Ste. Marie, maybe Sudbury) and I'd help work at (but in a more limited capacity) if those planning it actually wanted to hold it in a "populous area" ;-) say, Toronto / Ottawa / Oshawa. If, instead, you actually wanted to call it "north" instead of "Canada" I really wouldn't care either way... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 14 14:36:29 2006 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Dr. Emiel) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:36:29 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-200 References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004d01c7082c$93927260$0103a8c0@xp1800> Rod, If you got the 'VMS User's manual part one' chapter 1. - Resetting a password is the part you should read. You have to login on the system console and follow the book. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 9:41 AM Subject: VAX 4000-200 > Hi > I'm now the lucky owner of a Vax 4000-200. > > Apart from a bad TK70 drive (which I can get repaired in the UK ) > > Its fully working with 3 x RF 500Mb Drives (Two in a separate BA215 > box) It boots VMS 3.2 and loads the network software. > > I even have all the license numbers for VMS 3.2, DW-MOTIF,TCPWARE, VAX > CLUSTER & VOLSHAD > > What I don't have is the System password. The system was made in 1991 > and had been out of use since 1998.00 > > I would like to preserve it as is, adding a contempory set of periperals > (VT-100, LA-36 and so on) > > I don't want to replace the VMS or any of the other software. I have > no option but to try and recover the system password. > I'm not a hacker and have no idea how to go about breaking in. Anybody > out there have any suggestions as to how to get in and recover the > System password? > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 14:36:41 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:36:41 -0500 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <455A28D9.2020906@gmail.com> Bob wrote: > Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. > > I have the need to read numerious boxes of IBM [PS/1?] 1meg format floppies, so they can be transfered to CD > to rot forever :) > > Any help or direction will be appreciated. Any modern 2MB floppy drive should have no trouble reading them. What's the problem? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 14 14:45:46 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:45:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061114124508.X5469@shell.lmi.net> > > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > Cheers, eh! > Eh, it's a beauty eh. Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 14 14:50:25 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20061114124730.W5469@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Bob wrote: > Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. > I have the need to read numerious boxes of IBM [PS/1?] 1meg format floppies, so they can be transfered to CD > to rot forever :) > Any help or direction will be appreciated. What physical size disks are you referring to? IBM PS/1 never had anything that was commonly referred to by that name. UNformatted capacity of 720K disks is 1M. Those can be read by any but the most perverted of current machines. From gtoal at gtoal.com Tue Nov 14 14:59:20 2006 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:59:20 -0600 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) Message-ID: <455a2e28.uRgEMMCY6yasbYHt%gtoal@gtoal.com> >Brad Parker said: > >> I would be interested to hear about other languages people used on >> pdp-11's however :-) > >I've been playing with FIG-Forth on my 11/73. I've been able to >resurrect some code which originally ran on my TRS-80 circa 1979. >Good fun. And of course I have more Imp for the pdp-11 than you can shake a stick at. We also programmed ours in POP2 and LOGO but don't have any of that code remaining. Maybe some Fortran that was used for graphics but not very interesting. But on the Imp side we have compilers, editors, and entire operating systems... Graham PS To anyone who happened to notice that the Edinburgh Computer History site was down for a month - we had a hard drive failure, but all (well, mostly all) has now been restored. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 14 14:55:07 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:55:07 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <20061114124508.X5469@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114124508.X5469@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200611141555.07574.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 14 November 2006 15:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > > Cheers, eh! > > > > Eh, it's a beauty eh. > > Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? I think that's the "Great White South"... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 14 14:57:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:57:10 -0800 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com>, <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4559BD26.18062.24F9CCB7@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2006 at 15:20, Bob wrote: > Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. > > I have the need to read numerious boxes of IBM [PS/1?] 1meg format floppies, so they can be transfered to CD > to rot forever :) > > Any help or direction will be appreciated. Assuming that you're dealing with DOS/Windows, those diskettes should be formatted in 9x2x512 format, if they were done right. Readable in any modern 3.5" drive. However--back in the days when there was a price premium on 1.44 MB media, some used the 720K media as 1.44MB, as the IBM drives didn't care about the density hole on the diskette. Some even used the DS2D media as 2.88MB DSED, but I doubt that this is the case here. If this is what was done, you have three choices. 1. Find an IBM PS/2 and read the diskettes there. 2. Find a 1.44MB drive that you can jumper to read the disks as high density, without regard to the density window. Sometimes a 720K drive will READ (but not write) DSHD media. 3. Drill or punch a hole in each diskette so that they're seen as high-density diskettes by modern equipment. There are a couple of other scenarios--1) that these aren't IBM- created diskettes at all, but created on something like a NEC 9801, in which case you'll need to modify a 3.5" drive to read them. The other possibility is that these aren't DOS/Windows format diskettes at all. That's a whole 'nother issue. I'm going to assume that each of these diskettes contains a valid boot sector, so that you're not getting spurious "General Failure" errors. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 14 14:59:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:59:55 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: References: <001501c70378$38e29240$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <4554BB04.8070802@oldskool.org>, Message-ID: <4559BDCB.7181.24FC4F33@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2006 at 14:57, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Though the technical details escaped me, I remember very well the > feeling of excitement when I got that first V20, plugged it into my > no-name 4.77MHz PC/XT clone, and noticed how much faster Turbo Pascal > compiled my stuff. :-) Yes, but what's the thing about "stabilize and speedup" the V20. I was on the copy list from NEC Natick as regards the V20/V30 and while I've got a bunch of paper, the issue of "stability" never came up. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 14 15:02:38 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:02:38 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <20061114124508.X5469@shell.lmi.net> References: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > > > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > > Cheers, eh! > > Eh, it's a beauty eh. > >Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? Just as white (heck, moreso! ;-) but wrong direction... What would he call it? VCF-WS (Way South) VCF-SP (South Pole) VCF-RRFC (Really Really Frelling Cold) If he holds it sometime in December '07, he might be able to get Woz as a speaker there... ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 14 15:05:51 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <20061114124730.W5469@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200611142105.kAEL5xrO086744@keith.ezwind.net> I have not "seen" the disks yet, I just got a call from someone having problems reading them. I thought they were 720k but was told they were written on an IBM (something) in a 1m format ? I had hoped someone would have more clue than either myself or my clueless friend. Thanks Bob On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:50:25 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Bob wrote: >> Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. >> I have the need to read numerious boxes of IBM [PS/1?] 1meg format floppies, so they can be transfered to CD >> to rot forever :) >> Any help or direction will be appreciated. >What physical size disks are you referring to? >IBM PS/1 never had anything that was commonly referred to by that name. >UNformatted capacity of 720K disks is 1M. Those can be read by any but >the most perverted of current machines. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 14 15:07:20 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:07:20 +0000 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <200611142020.kAEKKMa1084942@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 14/11/06 20:20, "Bob" wrote: > Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. > > I have the need to read numerious boxes of IBM [PS/1?] 1meg format floppies, > so they can be transfered to CD > to rot forever :) I'm assuming here you mean 5.25" 1.2mb floppies? If you don't then don't read any further :) Old 3.5" floppies can still be read on modern drives can't they? I've just been through this for a client and ended up using the floppy drive from a DECstation 316 (a rebadged Olivetti 386sx, the drive itself is a Panasonic) and various older and older pentium motherboards until I hit paydirt with a ~1995 Pentium 200 board and Windows 95 running off a 1gb hard drive. I remembered a discussion here that basically said that despite modern BIOS' claiming to have 5.25" support the floppy controller itself won't see it correctly, surprisingly a 1998 Compaq Deskpro EN has the option to declare a 5.25" floppy in the BIOS but it can't address it correctly under Win98, this may have something to do with being unable to swap the drives over - normally the 5.25" drive is A: and the 3.5" drive is B:, this upsets the Deskpro AND Win98 which seem to expect the 3.5" drive to be A: and nothing else. Other solutions are bound to be available, YMMV, caveat emptor etc :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 14 15:11:06 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:11:06 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <20061114124508.X5469@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003301c70831$6651b900$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> There was a similar discussion a few months ago. Hans, Patrick, and I all tried to convey the central point that hosting this event is a BIG and UNIQUE situation. For starters, anyone looking to host one should: - attend a couple of established VCFs so you know how it should be - have some experience organizing smaller events so you're not overwhelmed - be able to secure a venue that's large enough and cheap enough - know how to deal with the marketing, business side, getting exhibitors/speakers - be able to get along with Sellam :) -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) > > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > Cheers, eh! > Eh, it's a beauty eh. Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 14 15:14:41 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <200611141555.07574.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Nov 14, 6 03:55:07 pm" Message-ID: <200611142114.kAELEfu4082036@floodgap.com> > > > > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > > > Cheers, eh! > > > > > > Eh, it's a beauty eh. > > > > Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? > > I think that's the "Great White South"... But every direction from there is north ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "have do you a weak flatulence?" -- Babelfish Dutch translation ------------ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 14 15:23:42 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:23:42 -0800 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) Message-ID: > [...] Larry Pazzolo had a Spere( sp? ) system but > has not been able to find much docs. I aquired the collection of the last Sphere User's group president a couple of years ago. It is part of a donation I'm making to CHM. I talked to Larry a bit about it over the weekend, since it includes about 50 cassette tapes and system documentation. Before it is donated the docs will be scanned and the tapes digitized. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 14 15:26:27 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:26:27 -0800 Subject: Edinburgh Computer History site Message-ID: > PS To anyone who happened to notice that the Edinburgh Computer > History site was down for a month - we had a hard drive failure, > but all (well, mostly all) has now been restored. I noticed :-) Thank you for restoring it! Has anything more been found in the last year or two? From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Nov 14 15:35:13 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:35:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <001b01c70411$20f794c0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: <20061102180222.70231.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <455069E1.6966.8C94B3@cclist.sydex.com> <4551B1B6.2070501@yahoo.co.uk> <001b01c70411$20f794c0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <18663.144.160.5.25.1163540113.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> I read a book called _The Victorian Internet_ which I found fascinating. It's about the age of telegraphy and touches on tech that preceded it, such as semaphore and relay stations. It's a great read. >> I wonder if there were any electrically-operated semaphore stations >> around >> which pre-date wired telegraphy? Most countries had networks of optical >> semaphores which could of course route a message (the original idea >> seems From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 14 15:44:23 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:44:23 -0600 Subject: OT Monitor glass question In-Reply-To: <4557E334.5040102@oldskool.org> References: <4557E334.5040102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <455A38B7.20602@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > I found what I thought would make a nice spare Trinitron monitor, but > there is a tiny pinhole chunk of the glass chipped out on the surface, > about maybe 1.5 mm deep with a diameter of 4mm. Against better > judgement, I switched it on (from a safe distance) and it appears to > function properly. > > My question is, how stable is it? Other than the visual defect, is it > safe to operate the monitor, or should I be worried that it will swiftly > implode at any moment? I can only assume from the overwhelming lack of response that either 1. there is nothing to worry about, or 2. it is so dangerous that I am a complete moron for even asking the question in the first place. I'm open to either answer :-) if someone would just confirm one of them... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 15:46:20 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:46:20 -0500 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I aquired the collection of the last Sphere User's group president a couple > of years ago. It is part of a donation I'm making to CHM. I talked to Larry > a bit about it over the weekend, since it includes about 50 cassette tapes > and system documentation. Before it is donated the docs will be scanned and > the tapes digitized. I also have a large quantity of Sphere docs and a big pile of hardware, but it was part of a deal with Jim Willing that went bad. I have tried to get the stuff back, but he is not responding. Anyone here keep in contact with him? I am past the point of being annoyed. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 14 15:56:34 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:56:34 -0500 Subject: OT Monitor glass question In-Reply-To: <455A38B7.20602@oldskool.org> References: <4557E334.5040102@oldskool.org> <455A38B7.20602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200611141656.34832.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 14 November 2006 16:44, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > I found what I thought would make a nice spare Trinitron monitor, > > but there is a tiny pinhole chunk of the glass chipped out on the > > surface, about maybe 1.5 mm deep with a diameter of 4mm. Against > > better judgement, I switched it on (from a safe distance) and it > > appears to function properly. > > > > My question is, how stable is it? Other than the visual defect, is > > it safe to operate the monitor, or should I be worried that it will > > swiftly implode at any moment? > > I can only assume from the overwhelming lack of response that either > 1. there is nothing to worry about, or 2. it is so dangerous that I am > a complete moron for even asking the question in the first place. Realistically, it's probably not something I'd worry about too much.. that's a fairly small defect in the glass (which on the front of a CRT is quite thick). I'd be more worried if there was a crack or a deep hole. I'm not going to guarantee it won't implode, just say that it's not very likely. I wouldn't go deep-sea diving with it, however. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 14 16:00:37 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:00:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <003301c70831$6651b900$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <003301c70831$6651b900$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20061114135429.W5469@shell.lmi.net> [Ethan as a VCF host] wouldn't be practical, but sure would be interesting! On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Evan Koblentz wrote: > There was a similar discussion a few months ago. Hans, Patrick, and I all > tried to convey the central point that hosting this event is a BIG and > UNIQUE situation. For starters, anyone looking to host one should: > - attend a couple of established VCFs so you know how it should be > - have some experience organizing smaller events so you're not overwhelmed > - be able to secure a venue that's large enough and cheap enough That would be the biggest problem. Outdoors would probably not have warm enough weather. > - know how to deal with the marketing, business side, getting > exhibitors/speakers Woz might be difficult to get many more, and the public attendance might be low, particularly due to transportation costs. > - be able to get along with Sellam :) From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 16:02:39 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:02:39 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> References: <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <455A3CFF.4090308@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>> Looking forward to VCF 10 and seeing Evan in May for VCF east. >>>>> >>>>> Happy computing! >>>> >>>> Don't forget about VCF Midwest :) >>> So is there a VCF North yet? I think I'd try to haul a bunch of UK >>> machines across the pond for that if there was, could be fun :-) >> >> There's a VCF East on the east coast of the US. > > Yes, there is... unforch, "east" != "north". > > ;-) > > For me, VCF East is at least a 13-hour drive... and VCF-MW was almost 9. > > I'd posited in the past that I'd be happy to help organize a VCF-C > (Canada) if it were somewhere close to me in Ontario (read: Sault Ste. > Marie, maybe Sudbury) and I'd help work at (but in a more limited > capacity) if those planning it actually wanted to hold it in a "populous > area" ;-) say, Toronto / Ottawa / Oshawa. But Sault Ste. Marie, ON is much more of a trek for someone from Britain than Wall, NJ is. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 14 16:12:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:12:20 -0800 Subject: OT Monitor glass question In-Reply-To: <200611141656.34832.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4557E334.5040102@oldskool.org>, <455A38B7.20602@oldskool.org>, <200611141656.34832.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4559CEC4.19753.3CE28D@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2006 at 16:56, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Realistically, it's probably not something I'd worry about too much.. > that's a fairly small defect in the glass (which on the front of a CRT > is quite thick). I'd be more worried if there was a crack or a deep > hole. What Patrick said. Years ago, I used a 20" monitor that had a visible crack in the funnel. It worked fine and didn't implode until about 7 years later when the recycling folks did what they do to all CRTs--bust 'em up. The glass in the faceplate's a lot thicker than that in the funnel. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 16:13:22 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:13:22 +1300 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <200611141555.07574.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114124508.X5469@shell.lmi.net> <200611141555.07574.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 11/15/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 14 November 2006 15:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > And my first thought was you meant "VCF Great White North" ;) > > > > Cheers, eh! > > > > > > Eh, it's a beauty eh. > > > > Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? > > I think that's the "Great White South"... Indeed... I'm looking out the window at the *South* Pole. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 14 16:14:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:14:50 -0700 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:23:42 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > > [...] Larry Pazzolo had a Spere( sp? ) system but > > has not been able to find much docs. > > I aquired the collection of the last Sphere User's group president a couple > of years ago. It is part of a donation I'm making to CHM. I talked to Larry > a bit about it over the weekend, since it includes about 50 cassette tapes > and system documentation. Before it is donated the docs will be scanned and > the tapes digitized. Cool! I had an interest in preserving the Sphere because it was a locally produced item. If it turns into an exhibit at the CHM, that would be a better showcase for it than my basement :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 14 16:27:41 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:27:41 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455A3CFF.4090308@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >... >>I'd posited in the past that I'd be happy to help organize a VCF-C >>(Canada) if it were somewhere close to me in Ontario (read: Sault Ste. >>Marie, maybe Sudbury) and I'd help work at (but in a more limited >>capacity) if those planning it actually wanted to hold it in a "populous >>area" ;-) say, Toronto / Ottawa / Oshawa. > >But Sault Ste. Marie, ON is much more of a trek for someone from Britain >than Wall, NJ is. Sault Ste. Marie... sure. It's a smallish town, which is why I was being somewhat facetious when I mentioned it... ;-) However, Toronto or Ottawa might be much less of a trek, for two reasons: 1) Entirely possible to have a non-stop from London to Toronto/Ottawa; (I'll admit I don't know how far it is from Wall, NJ to a major (NY?) airport) More importantly: 2) Canada is still very much affiliated with Brittania (Confederacy? Protecterate? Allz I know is the queen is on their money, but not on our US coinage... ;-) and customs might be a lot less sticky for dragging machines across the pond to Canada vs. the US, especially since 9/11. =-= Being facetious again, I could add a 0) If he did come to the Sault, he wouldn't have to worry about cab rides or lining up reliable heavy-duty transportation for his UK machines - Methinks my '04 Avalanche should handle the task nicely; and still transport 4 adults comfortably... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 14 16:29:23 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:29:23 -0800 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) Message-ID: I also have a large quantity of Sphere docs and a big pile of hardware, but it was part of a deal with Jim Willing that went bad. I have tried to get the stuff back, but he is not responding. -- It's probably sitting next to the Tektronix 405x documentation I never received. I don't think short of you driving to Kansas and watching him go through everything that he still has that you will ever see the Sphere stuff again. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 14 11:47:51 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:47:51 -0600 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> References: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? > > Just as white (heck, moreso! ;-) but wrong direction... > > What would he call it? > VCF-WS (Way South) > VCF-SP (South Pole) > VCF-RRFC (Really Really Frelling Cold) Well, given that VCFs are not unique to the US, I'm tempted to suggest that they should always be given as coordinates anyway :-) (Although what the longitude of the south pole is, I don't know - do people just pick something at random? :) cheers J. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 16:58:57 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:58:57 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <455A4A31.3040601@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Sault Ste. Marie... sure. It's a smallish town, which is why I was being > somewhat facetious when I mentioned it... ;-) I undamastand. > However, Toronto or Ottawa might be much less of a trek, for two reasons: > > 1) Entirely possible to have a non-stop from London to Toronto/Ottawa; > (I'll admit I don't know how far it is from Wall, NJ to a major (NY?) > airport) It's a little more than 40 miles from Newark, or a little more than 70 from JFK, or a little more than 80 from Philadelphia International. Peace... Sridhar From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 14 17:03:31 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:03:31 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <004b01c70841$1ae043f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> (I'll admit I don't know how far it is from Wall, NJ to a major (NY?) airport) Wall is 90 minutes by car from Manhattan, 60 minutes from Newark Airport (at least if you drive like I do ... treat your sports car like it's stolen!), and 90 minutes to Philadelphia. There are several non-stop flights from Heathrow to both Newark and Philadelphia, but anyone flying to us should go through Newark. Our venue itself is historic. It was built in 1912 as the U.S. R&D headquarters for the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Co., and then because a U.S. military R&D base in World War I. The military left after that but returned during World War II. They left for good in 1998, after which local historians started campaigning to have the base turned into a science museum. Others fought to have the 30-something acres of waterfront property turned into housing, malls, offices, etc., but lucky for us the historians won. Today the site is protected on the National Register of Historic Places. Volunteers started restoring the buildings, very slowly, about five years ago. Our local vintage computer user group got involved in spring 2005 by committing to build a computer museum, and one year later (this past May) we hosted VCF East 3.0 there. (The previous two VCF East shows were in the Boston area, organized remotely by Sellam.) The facility also hosts two different antique radio clubs, a military technology group, a group which explores historic shipwrecks, a model trains group, an exhibition of a NASA Apollo computer, an exhibit of mankind's first signal bounced off the moon (happened here!), and much more. Lots more information about our facility's history is posted at http://infoage.org/history.html and http://infoage.org/vtour.html. You don't have to wait until VCF to visit --- I'd be glad to lead a personal tour of our museum for anyone on classiccmp --- just ping me off-list. - Evan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:03:59 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:03:59 -0500 Subject: Sphere system owned by Larry Pazzolo (was: VCF 9.0) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I don't think short of you driving to Kansas and watching him go through > everything that he still has that you will ever see the Sphere stuff again. I may just do that, when I cross the country again next year. I have a list of everything I sent in fine detail. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:04:04 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:04:04 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <455A4B64.20708@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Well, given that VCFs are not unique to the US, I'm tempted to suggest > that they should always be given as coordinates anyway :-) (Although > what the longitude of the south pole is, I don't know - do people just > pick something at random? :) The Earth's axis precesses fairly quickly. I don't think the South Pole is a single point on the surface from one moment to the next. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 14 17:06:05 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:06:05 -0600 Subject: Overclocking ATs In-Reply-To: <4559DA99.8020807@gmail.com> References: <200611110026.kAB0QSSE051492@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45551D95.4030004@yahoo.com> <4555605F.3070609@oldskool.org> <4555A88B.7040209@gjcp.net> <4559DA99.8020807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <455A4BDD.4040309@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I don't know, but I remember comparing two side-by-side and the 286 >> absolutely horsed the 386sx. IIRC it was about 15% faster - *really* >> noticable difference. > > Did the 286 have a 287? Was there floating-point code in the > application you were using? And again, it's possible that the 286 was 0WS while the 386 was 1WS, or interleaved vs. non-interleaved... RAM speed is a big deal, on any platform. Another factor could have been a poor-engineered 386sx (16-bit bus)... whereas a 386dx (32-bit bus) could have horsed the 286. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:09:19 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:09:19 +1300 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson In-Reply-To: <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 11/15/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Could Ethan be persuaded to host one? > > > > Just as white (heck, moreso! ;-) but wrong direction... > > > > What would he call it? > > VCF-WS (Way South) > > VCF-SP (South Pole) > > VCF-RRFC (Really Really Frelling Cold) > > Well, given that VCFs are not unique to the US, I'm tempted to suggest that > they should always be given as coordinates anyway :-) (Although what the > longitude of the south pole is, I don't know - do people just pick something > at random? :) At the Pole, the longitude is undefined (think "tangent of 90 degrees"). As for time (the usual indicator of longitude in practical terms), we use NZ time since we get our planes from McMurdo and they get their planes from Christchurch. Usually here, folks ignore longitude and just make references to "90 South". -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:19:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:19:40 +1300 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455A4B64.20708@gmail.com> References: <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> <455A4B64.20708@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/15/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The Earth's axis precesses fairly quickly. I don't think the South Pole > is a single point on the surface from one moment to the next. While that is strictly true, we do relocate the Pole every January 1st to compensate for the 10m of annual flow of the Ice. That's a larger effect than moment-to-moment wobble. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:20:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:20:54 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <004b01c70841$1ae043f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004b01c70841$1ae043f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <455A4F56.1030701@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> (I'll admit I don't know how far it is from Wall, NJ to a major (NY?) > airport) > > Wall is 90 minutes by car from Manhattan, 60 minutes from Newark Airport (at > least if you drive like I do ... treat your sports car like it's stolen!), > and 90 minutes to Philadelphia. There are several non-stop flights from > Heathrow to both Newark and Philadelphia, but anyone flying to us should go > through Newark. It doesn't take me nearly 60 minutes from Newark. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 14 17:58:06 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:58:06 -0800 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <367301c70848$bb121360$0501a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. -snip- I remembered a discussion here that basically said that despite modern BIOS' claiming to have 5.25" support the floppy controller itself won't see it correctly, surprisingly a 1998 Compaq Deskpro EN has the option to declare a 5.25" floppy in the BIOS but it can't address it correctly under Win98, this may have something to do with being unable to swap the drives over - normally the 5.25" drive is A: and the 3.5" drive is B:, this upsets the Deskpro AND Win98 which seem to expect the 3.5" drive to be A: and nothing else. Other solutions are bound to be available, YMMV, caveat emptor etc :) -- Win 98, and 2000 at least don't care about the capacity of the "a" drive, I've had 1.2 MB drives on them just fine, I have yet to try with win XP or 2003. any issues with win 98 and 2000 not being able to read/write a 1.2mb drive as the 1st drive in the chain lie in the motherboard and bios. Some of the newer ASUS and Supermicro boards will let you assign a 2nd drive but you can't read ad write to it :( been bit by that one a couple times now. It turned out that the 2nd drive select line wasn't brought out of the silicon to the motherboard in the super-IO chips they were using :( From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 14 18:20:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:20:15 -0800 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <367301c70848$bb121360$0501a8c0@liberator> References: , <367301c70848$bb121360$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <4559ECBF.17466.B2006A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2006 at 15:58, Geoff Reed wrote: > Win 98, and 2000 at least don't care about the capacity of the "a" drive, > I've had 1.2 MB drives on them just fine, I have yet to try with win XP or > 2003. any issues with win 98 and 2000 not being able to read/write a 1.2mb > drive as the 1st drive in the chain lie in the motherboard and bios. ...and I've had 360K and 720K drives as well. XP gets a bit uppity though, if you try to format a 360K or 720K (or, IIRC, 1.2MB) drive. The code's still in the driver, but someone at MS decided that /F:360 etc. shouldn't go into the command itself. Should you happen to get your hands on some NEC 9801 DOS-V 1.3MB 3.5" diskettes,Windows should read them just fine if they're used on a Superdrive or most USB floppy drives. Formatting is another matter, however. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 14 18:24:18 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:24:18 +0000 Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <367301c70848$bb121360$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: On 14/11/06 23:58, "Geoff Reed" wrote: > Win 98, and 2000 at least don't care about the capacity of the "a" drive, > I've had 1.2 MB drives on them just fine, I have yet to try with win XP or > 2003. any issues with win 98 and 2000 not being able to read/write a 1.2mb > drive as the 1st drive in the chain lie in the motherboard and bios. Yep, I'm pretty sure I had a bit of success with a single drive but in the last few days I've tried so many different combinations I've sort of lost track :) Yesterday I was just pleased to get it running without having to resort to Win3.11 or DOS with their Fun With Networking ?, though DOS6.22 saw both drives straight away. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 14 18:31:47 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:31:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? In-Reply-To: <45596AE2.90702@worldnet.att.net> References: <45596AE2.90702@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Jerry Wright wrote: > I still have my Delta system, + a VersaDos system, a VME10 (Partial), a > few PowerPC systems, a early VME system and a 88000 MVME System. Just > to round out the Motorola line A few 6800 systems . Since you're into this too, here're some questions: 1) The card cage I'm using was designed for a weird 9-slot backplane with the footprint of a 12-slot one. Six slots were spaced normally. The remaining slots were spaced 1.5x apart and had J2 slots with weird high-amp connectors in them (if anyone wants this oddball, it's free for shipping). My problem is where to get replacement card guides and spacers for the cage (deep 6u format). 2) And now the 12-slot backplane, I'd like to have the A and C pins on the J2 side bussed together (so I can build a Magic-1 into it). Might you or anyone else reading have 12 IDC connectors for doing this? I have plenty of ribbon cable. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 14 20:41:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:41:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed to read IBM 1M formated floppy on something modern. In-Reply-To: <4559ECBF.17466.B2006A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <367301c70848$bb121360$0501a8c0@liberator> <4559ECBF.17466.B2006A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061114184003.C26441@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The code's still in the driver, but someone at MS decided that /F:360 > etc. shouldn't go into the command itself. I was using an older HPaq with XP a few years ago, that no longer had /F: , but it still accepted /T:40/N:9 , and even /T:80/N:8 ! From GaryDFisher at shaw.ca Tue Nov 14 21:53:27 2006 From: GaryDFisher at shaw.ca (Gary Fisher) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:53:27 -0700 Subject: VCF 9 Message-ID: <000e01c70869$9be08780$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> Hello all, Just to put my belated two cents in about VCF 9.0... This was my second time around and this year was even better than the last! I particularly enjoyed the build sessions for the Replica I (bravo Vince!) and the ELF 2000 (a big bravo to you Bob!, thank for swapping my board for yours!). If Sellam is a lurking out there, I sure hope there are more build sessions in future years. Maybe a P112 or Howard Harte's eZ80 perhaps? Just like David's better half, my wife also made the semi-long trip from home (Calgary, Canada) to Mountain View and actually took in some sessions on Sunday. Evan's session on collecting helped her understand my obsession (and yes I'm going to take your words to heart about specializing... spreadsheet software! it made my career possible and nutures it today) She also quite enjoyed Christine's talk about retro-tech (among other things). Got some great deals on the sales floor and shipped them all home via UPS. I learned that most UPS stores (my sample of one at least!) have never sent anything out of the country, no wonder so many of my eBay sellers are reluctant to ship to Canada! But after only an hour of filling and re-filling forms they went on their way. Arrived in good shape thanks to copious amounts of bubble wrap. I know my bad embay experiences with bad packing jobs would have some eventual benefit. (Ha! that would be a whole other thread, like the 50 lb North Horizon I got packed in a flimsy box with some balled-up plastic grocery bags!) Anyway, it was nice to meet some of you in person, and I hope to see you all next year. My best wishes to Sell and his crew for an excellent job! GF This was a message from Gary Fisher GaryDFisher at shaw.ca From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 14 22:04:08 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9 In-Reply-To: <000e01c70869$9be08780$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> References: <000e01c70869$9be08780$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Gary Fisher wrote: > If Sellam is a lurking out there, I sure hope there are more build > sessions in future years. Maybe a P112 or Howard Harte's eZ80 perhaps? If I were to go to the VCF and do a P112 build session, I think I'd have to get more boards made. I'm starting to run low. I wonder how I'd handle the requirement for things like power supplies and floppy drives. For terminals, requiring a laptop should suffice. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 14 22:10:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:10:04 -0700 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:41:49 +0200. Message-ID: In article , "Matti Nummi" writes: > I collect, restore and repair Motorola MVME computers. > I'm just wondering can I find some help or (MVME)friends in here. IIRC, the Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation uses a VME bus for expansion cards. Also IIRC, the Lilith has a VME bus? Maybe that one is wholly proprietary, I don't have proper docs for the Lilith. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 14 22:12:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:12:09 -0700 Subject: VCF 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:04:08 -0800. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > If I were to go to the VCF and do a P112 build session, I think I'd have > to get more boards made. I'm starting to run low. I wonder how I'd > handle the requirement for things like power supplies and floppy drives. > For terminals, requiring a laptop should suffice. Speaking of builds and terminals, anyone interested in creating a Beehive TTL terminal replica? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 14 22:12:53 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:12:53 -0500 Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... In-Reply-To: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> References: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> Message-ID: <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > The RD53 drive in my 11/73 has finally gone to silicon heaven, after a > brief resurrection. Given the reputation these drives seem to have, > I'm not too surprised. So a few nights ago I dug through my stacks of > ancient hard drives and found three possible candidates for replacement: RD53... Micropolis 1325 I believe. I ran one of these (I believe it was an RD53 actually... not just a generic 1325) in a PC years ago. It one day started not wanting to initialize... startup... think think, chunk chunk, spin down.... With nothing to lose, I began to experiment... What I found was that it couldn't apparently locate track 0. If the HDA os opened, it has two rubber? bumpers for the extreme ends of head motion. One for track 0 and one for last track ? They look something like: ---- | \ |____ / with an adjustable slide 'hole' in the middle. What I'm guessing went wrong is that the material hardens and/or shrinks with age. By carefully tweaking the adjustment on this item to allow a mere few thousands of an inch inward... the drive started initializing fine every time. I did not use the drive much after that, so how drive longevity would be effected by the introduction of contaminants into the HDA assembly I don't know (I of course don't have a clean room :-) ). However, if you have a fairly clean space, and can work carefully as such not to stir up contaminants, you may be able to rescue your RD53. Another problem I read of someone having a problem with an RD53 had to do with the brake solenoid assembly needing adjusting as the brake pad was dragging (it is located under the circuit board on the bottom as I recall... no inside the HDA). -- Curt > > - A Microscribe 6085, which seems to have the same drive geometry as > an RD53 > - Two Seagate ST-251s, which seem to be identical to an RD32 > > All of these are in "unknown" condition (I haven't used them in > years), but spin up without making any evil noises and are recognized > by the RQDX3 controller. To the best of my recollection, all three > were formerly used in PCs. > > I've used zrqch0 (booted via vtserver) to format all three of these > disks. In all three cases the formatting appears to be successful -- > the drives format for a few minutes, then go through three > verification stages for another 20-30 minutes. During this time I can > hear the heads being stepped, and the drive access light blinks. At > the end of the format no errors are reported. > > I'll note that in order to do the format on these drives, I had to go > through the process manually (as opposed to the "AUTOFORMAT" mode of > zrqch0) -- for the Microscribe this was because zrqch0 didn't > recognize the drive (showed up as "unknown"), for the ST-251s this was > because the fault tables could not be read off the drives. I suspect > this may have something to do with the issue I'm seeing, but of course > this is pure speculation. I've tried various permutations of the > formatting options, but I've had no joy there. > > After formatting the drives, no other utilities seem to be able to > make use any of the drives -- running the disk exerciser (zrqah0) > fails after the first test step (and after a very small amount of disk > activity) with an error similar to the below (this varies slightly > based on the test being run): > > FATAL I/O ERROR > * DISK 0 WENT OFFLINE > * SUB_CODE: NO VOLUME MOUNTED OR DRIVE DISABLED BY SWITCH > * COMMAND: READ_COMPARE > > Interestingly, 2.11BSD's 'disklabel' is able to partition and write > the label to the disk. Mkfs, however, fails with: > > ra(0,0,0) error op=A2 sts=23 > write error 3 > Exit called > > I've tried this with two different RQDX3 controllers with the same > results (and these controllers worked fine with my RD53 until it > failed). Is there a magic step I'm missing? Is what I'm attempting > to do (use non-DEC drives) not possible? Any ideas or suggestions? > Thanks for any help here... > Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 14 22:27:18 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:27:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... In-Reply-To: <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> References: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > However, if you have a fairly clean space, and can work carefully as > such not to stir up contaminants, you may be able to rescue your RD53. I've heard that a bathroom is the best place to go about approximating a cleanroom. Start off with a freshly-cleaned bathroom to get rid of skin flakes and such. Get rid of stuff on the counters. Then run the shower hot for a while to knock down floating dust. Then run the shower cold a bit to drop the humidity. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 14 23:52:37 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:52:37 -0800 Subject: VCF 9 Message-ID: > Speaking of builds and terminals, anyone interested in creating a > Beehive TTL terminal replica? ;-) Now that the docs are on line, I would think a KENBAK-1 would be more interesting, and that only needs two MOS shift registers, as opposed to most terminals which had frame and line buffer shift registers. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 16:31:07 2006 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:31:07 +0000 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) (Murray McCullough) Message-ID: My 'excuse' was that I just got back from VCF 9...and a visit to the Digibarn in Snata Cruz - with apologies to Buce Damer. It should be Santa Cruz. A brilliant creation, the Digibarn of Bruce Damer, CEO of DigitalSpace. And VCF Midwest. "Jay West" How could I forget! :) Happy computing! Murray-- ------------------ From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Nov 15 01:46:16 2006 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:46:16 -0800 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <200611141804.kAEI4i4Q013568@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002101c7088a$29a8b5e0$6501a8c0@Wayne> Great post - thanks for the in depth report. Sad to have missed it but now have some sense of what it was like to be there. -W > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:27:44 -0500 (EST) > From: "David Greelish" > Subject: Re: VCF 9.0 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <22875.208.255.229.66.1163446064.squirrel at wm2> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > I would like to write about the show, it can also serve as a > good prep for my next podcast where I will be talking about > it. So, you asked for it! > [snip] From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 15 04:53:01 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:53:01 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <455920A6.4050008@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488105@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Don wrote: > By first memory board I infer that you mean the MS11-M M8722 256KB. > This board requires both +5V for logic and +-12V for the memories. > > By second memory board I infer that you mean the MS11-P M8753 1MB. > This board is 5V only; it does not require either +-12V or +-15V. > > I would have expected it to be the other way around (MS11-M > does not work but the MS11-P does) but hey. It could be a > stuck driver on the MS11-P that is pulling some memory/unibus > control signals to ground, hanging the bus and cpu. Yes, correct! I checked the voltages, they are all just fine. Phew! I removed the M9302 in slot 14 a-b, and plugged the M9202 in it to add the next backplane to the total system. In that backplane is a TUK50, RUX50, UDA50 and the RL11. Power on ... all is perfect, for what I could see in a glance. We had a family visit, so I did not have much time, but as in a miracle, the RL02 FAULT light remained OFF too! One quick check: I installed the MS11-P in the 2nd memory slot. Turn on the system ... yep, a hang condition and the FAULT light on the RL02 goes ON immediately! Removed the MS11-P again, and everything looks healthy! It definitely looks like a defective MS11-P. The effect that it has on the system (especially the RL02's FAULT light) gives me hope to be able to repair that module one day! thanks! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk Wed Nov 15 04:58:54 2006 From: Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:58:54 -0000 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <200611151046.kAFAjjJY033803@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B8343F7@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> > >Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > >At 1:27 AM -0500 11/10/06, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > > >> but I wouldn't be surprised if a few PDP11s are > >> still doing some oddball stuff out there). > > > > They're still around in various settings, industrial, scientific, > > business, etc. They're used for such things as electron microscopes, > > spectrum analyzers, controlling parts of nuclear plants, etc., > > PDP-11's are still big business. In some cases it's because they're > > still working, why spend the money to replace, in others it would > > simply cost more to replace than it does to keep them running > > (typically places where qualifying new HW/SW can cost insane amounts > > of money). > It's not so long since I visited the Indian Space Agency in Bangalore and they were using a couple of pdp11/34s to control their satellite test rig. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 15 06:33:21 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:33:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: 1977 HP Measurement/Computation catalog on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I have a 1977 Hewlett-Packard Measurement/Computation catalog for auction on Ebay. Besides the hundreds of pages of test equipment, it includes calculators and accessories, 21MX processorss and options, HP1000, HP2000 and HP3000 Series II systems, 7900/7905 storage, 7970 tape drives, and 264X terminals. Item #110055177475. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Nov 15 08:34:07 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:34:07 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 - Recaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455B255F.40404@atarimuseum.com> I couldn't make it to the show, are there any recaps & photos? Curt From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 15 04:00:00 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:00:00 -0600 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <455AE520.1080905@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >> Roger Merchberger wrote: >> ... >>> I'd posited in the past that I'd be happy to help organize a VCF-C >>> (Canada) if it were somewhere close to me in Ontario (read: Sault >>> Ste. Marie, maybe Sudbury) and I'd help work at (but in a more >>> limited capacity) if those planning it actually wanted to hold it in >>> a "populous area" ;-) say, Toronto / Ottawa / Oshawa. >> >> But Sault Ste. Marie, ON is much more of a trek for someone from >> Britain than Wall, NJ is. > > Sault Ste. Marie... sure. It's a smallish town, which is why I was being > somewhat facetious when I mentioned it... ;-) Ahhh, I spend half my days in the middle of Minnesota though. It looks to be about 500 miles to your place, which I guess is do-able in a van. I'm not sure how close my nearest other VCF would be, but I suspect it's a lot more than that! > and customs might be a lot less sticky for dragging > machines across the pond to Canada vs. the US, especially since 9/11. Yes, I'm not sure how much fun that'd be. Every time I come over from the UK I want to bring some toy or other with me, but I can seen the border guys having a total fit with that :-) I suspect that if it's all in a shipping container then it's a bit easier, though... > Being facetious again, I could add a 0) If he did come to the Sault, he > wouldn't have to worry about cab rides or lining up reliable heavy-duty > transportation for his UK machines - Methinks my '04 Avalanche should > handle the task nicely; and still transport 4 adults comfortably... > ;-) :-) Someone just down the road from me is selling an ex-school bus for peanuts... lots of room for vintage systems in that! ;) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 15 04:03:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:03:42 -0600 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455A4B64.20708@gmail.com> References: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> <455A4B64.20708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <455AE5FE.4040906@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Well, given that VCFs are not unique to the US, I'm tempted to suggest >> that they should always be given as coordinates anyway :-) (Although >> what the longitude of the south pole is, I don't know - do people just >> pick something at random? :) > > The Earth's axis precesses fairly quickly. I don't think the South Pole > is a single point on the surface from one moment to the next. Interesting - I know the magnetic pole shifts around (and of course the ice on the surface presumably moves around quite a bit, taking any buildings with it), but surely 90deg south always points to the geographical pole, no matter what the magnetic pole might be doing? Ok, that's enough thinking for a morning ;) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 09:21:29 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:21:29 -0800 Subject: VCF 9.0 In-Reply-To: <33300.208.255.229.66.1163447046.squirrel@wm2> Message-ID: >From: "David Greelish" > >Oops, I meant Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn, not Bruce Draper. Also, on ---snip--- > Hi John Draper was there. He was sitting in the front row. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 15 09:40:57 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:40:57 -0500 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <200611110141.kAB1fHPO006383@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611110141.kAB1fHPO006383@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:41 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> It is. I'd VERY happily make room for it here, if it can sit up >> there for a few months until I can grab it. Any chance? > > I'll help if I can grab one of the rk05's.... Does "help" mean "will grab the whole system and sit on it for me for perhaps a couple of months until I can afford to rent a van to come pick it up"? 8-) If so, then absolutely yes! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 15 09:47:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:47:18 -0500 Subject: Floating point unit on Ebay for PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <45577A5E.1060607@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:36 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> there is an FPP-12 on ebay that expires tomorrow (Monday at 9am) It >> looks to be in excellent >> condition with documentaition. > > Hmmm... I wonder how much effort would be required to replicate > this in > FPGA to drop into a PDP8e or somesuch. Got schematics? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 15 10:00:03 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:00:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF 9 - Recaps? In-Reply-To: <455B255F.40404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20061115160003.F3BF2580EF@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt - Atari Museum > > I couldn't make it to the show, are there any recaps & photos? > > Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here are some pics of the 30th anniversary cake, Woz, some Apple employees and John Draper. http://news.com.com/2300-1042_3-6132816.html Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 15 10:09:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:09:20 -0500 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1840CEB5-52BF-4749-A0B1-4943FA669615@neurotica.com> On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:41 PM, Matti Nummi wrote: > I have followed this list for some time now. > I collect, restore and repair Motorola MVME computers. > I'm just wondering can I find some help or (MVME)friends in here. > > For example, does anyone have/know about a MVME360 SMD disk > controller. > Motorola docs and OS's (System V/68) support it. > Never seen one though. > > I have controllers and disks for MFM, ESDI and SCSI > and now I'm looking for SMD controller and disks. I have a small stack of MVME boards, but no backplane or chassis for them. The CPU boards I have are 68K-based. There are also some memory boards and a few I/O boards of various types. Sadly I don't have a list, and that box is in storage at the moment pending a move. I've always wanted to do something with them but I've not been able to find any docs. Do you have any hardware documentation for them? Specifically I'm interested in I/O addresses and such, as I'd love to throw some code in EPROMs and do some low-level hacking with them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 10:21:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:21:54 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com>, Message-ID: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> Some of the collectors might be able to answer this one--or maybe not. I'm just curious myself. When one is dealing with 70's-era personal computers, does rarity play any part in the valuation? For example, would a wood-cased People's Computer Z80 box right out of Berkeley command significantly more than, say, an early Apple II or a Zorba? (Not that I have any of these). I've been browsing the ePay auctions and I can't seem to make heads nor tails about what sets the value of early personal computers. Cheers, Chuck From pds3 at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 15 10:38:24 2006 From: pds3 at ix.netcom.com (pds3 at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:38:24 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: please remove me Message-ID: <20883522.1163608704770.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello, Will you please remove me from the list for the time being. I am having trouble keeping up with all the mail! The email to remove is pds3 at ix.netcom.com Thank you, Shannon Hoskins. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 15 10:45:17 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:45:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: please remove me In-Reply-To: <20883522.1163608704770.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20883522.1163608704770.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200611151647.LAA26475@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Will you please remove me from the list for the time being. I am > having trouble keeping up with all the mail! Actually, no, I can't, because I have no power to remove anyone (except myself) from the list. You might want to send your note to the -request address rather than the list itself. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Nov 15 10:50:55 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:50:55 -0500 Subject: Geek/Tech/Classic computers in Omaha Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1448@MEOW.catcorner.org> So I'll be in Omaha for a week. Any good tech attractions/stores/things to see? Kelly From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 15 11:09:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:09:50 -0700 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:21:54 -0800. <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > When one is dealing with 70's-era personal computers, does rarity > play any part in the valuation? In a perfect market, yes. However, what we have here is a sparse market with frenzy pricing. For instance, I purchased a Beehive terminal branded as a Cromemco terminal. Ordinarily, a Beehive terminal is pretty rare in the first place, but putting the Cromemco branding on it made it more attractive to collectors. Ironicly, this is probably what kept it from hitting the scrapper! However, because of the collector interest in the Cromemco branding, bidding on this terminal went up to like $350 before I was able to secure it. A regular Beehive terminal of comparable model would probably not go to $100 unless there are some other weird terminal collectors like me out there :-). Beehive doesn't command much interest, but Cromemco does. Same hardware, different nameplate. > I've been browsing the ePay auctions and I can't seem to make heads > nor tails about what sets the value of early personal computers. The only way to determine "market" price from things like ePay is to monitor them over a long enough time to have sufficient "comps" to determine which items sold abnormally low and which sold abnormally high. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 15 02:22:02 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:22:02 +0000 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455ACE2A.4010509@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > In any case, you should be more worried about damaging the PCB (for > example the through-hole plating) than the chips. 64K DRAMs are not hard > to get, after all. In fact, if I wasn't sure of my abilities to desolder > the ICs, I'd cut the pins off them and then desolder them one at time > from the PCB. Been there, done that, repaired the resulting mess with blue wire. Not nice. A really hot temperature-controlled iron is the way to go. Either that or as you say, snip the chip and pick the pins out one at a time. I'm dreading removing the 30-pin thick film module that's wedged tightly between other thick-film modules in one of my synthesizers. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 15 02:25:34 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:25:34 +0000 Subject: ADB "power key always down" plug In-Reply-To: <200611112218.kABMIAu2160688@floodgap.com> References: <200611112218.kABMIAu2160688@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <455ACEFE.8060508@gjcp.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Some of the machines can do this in hardware (the IIcx/ci/Q700 come to >> mind immediately). Push in the back panel power button and twist 90 degrees. > > I know that, and my IIci is already set up this way, but this is for a 7300 > that doesn't have such a facility. > Well, it sounds like all that does is hold in the power button. Maybe you could wedge your power button with something. Gordon. From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Nov 15 02:30:24 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:30:24 -0800 Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... In-Reply-To: <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> References: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <455AD020.7050401@msu.edu> > Josh Dersch wrote: >> The RD53 drive in my 11/73 has finally gone to silicon heaven, after >> a brief resurrection. Given the reputation these drives seem to >> have, I'm not too surprised. So a few nights ago I dug through my >> stacks of ancient hard drives and found three possible candidates for >> replacement: > > RD53... Micropolis 1325 I believe. I ran one of these (I believe it > was an RD53 > actually... not just a generic 1325) in a PC years ago. > > It one day started not wanting to initialize... startup... think > think, chunk chunk, > spin down.... > > With nothing to lose, I began to experiment... > > What I found was that it couldn't apparently locate track 0. If the > HDA os opened, > it has two rubber? bumpers for the extreme ends of head motion. One > for track 0 > and one for last track ? > > They look something like: > > ---- > | \ > |____ / > > with an adjustable slide 'hole' in the middle. > > What I'm guessing went wrong is that the material hardens and/or > shrinks with age. > > By carefully tweaking the adjustment on this item to allow a mere few > thousands of > an inch inward... the drive started initializing fine every time. > > I did not use the drive much after that, so how drive longevity would > be effected by > the introduction of contaminants into the HDA assembly I don't know (I > of course > don't have a clean room :-) ). > > However, if you have a fairly clean space, and can work carefully as > such not to > stir up contaminants, you may be able to rescue your RD53. > > Another problem I read of someone having a problem with an RD53 had to do > with the brake solenoid assembly needing adjusting as the brake pad > was dragging > (it is located under the circuit board on the bottom as I recall... no > inside the HDA). I actually did something similar with my RD53. When I got the machine, the drive was dead -- it'd spin up, do nothing for ~30 seconds and then spin down. I wagered that the heads were not moving, probably a stiction problem -- since I'd nothing to lose (same as your situation) I took the cover off, and while the drive was powered up, I gave the heads a small nudge. This got the drive working again. I was pretty pleased with myself :). Ran long enough to get 2.11BSD installed on it, and everything was sunshine and lollipops until last weekend when it died again. It still spins up, but it never seems to get to a "ready" condition. Or at least, that's how it _sounds_ -- it spins up, then sounds like it starts to spin down a tiny bit, then spins up again in rapid succession. It will do this for as long as I leave it running, with no head activity at all. So I'd like to get one of the spare PC drives I have running in this thing, but nothing's ever that simple, it seems... :) (On an almost completely unrelated note, I've noticed that my mails take 1-2 days to actually make it to the list. I sent out my original mail on Sunday afternoon (11/12) and I didn't see it show up on the list (i.e. it didn't show up in my inbox) until Tuesday morning! Anyone else have this issue? I know I don't get delays like this sending email elsewhere...) Thanks, Josh From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 15 02:48:28 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:48:28 +0000 Subject: old DEC gear wanted In-Reply-To: <4554E89B.8020605@compsys.to> References: <003501c70486$d2294fc0$4200a8c0@main> <45541BE0.3040901@hawkmountain.net> <4554E89B.8020605@compsys.to> Message-ID: <455AD45C.1010904@gjcp.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > for just one subsystem. At Ontario Hydro, a typical > 3,000 Megawatt station might have cost $ 10,000,000,000.00 > to build, so the PDP-11/73 system would be only a small, > but critical sub-system. Yeah, and then there's acceptance testing, fault simulation and so on. You can't just roll it in and hook it up. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 15 02:51:09 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:51:09 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <20061113160625.U27188@shell.inch.com> References: <200611131804.kADI3uCa096310@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061113160625.U27188@shell.inch.com> Message-ID: <455AD4FD.20607@gjcp.net> mmelnick wrote: > I just found a cheap NCR monitor mv0951a in a trashbin. Really small and > compact so I snatched/saved it and brought it to the lab. Seems to be > VGA but when i bent down to plug it in, I noticed it had a non-standard > AC plug with 3 small blades! wtf? no one here recognizes it. I'm > googling now. It would be a great little lab monitor if it's not 220v or > some alien design. Does it have a plastic pin about as thick as your finger, with three blades sticking out the side of it in a line? It might be an Electrak plug. They're used a lot in commercial environments. We used to have them on IBM POS equipment so supermarket cleaners didn't plug their hoovers into the clean feed. Gordon. From ccrodie at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 15 07:21:29 2006 From: ccrodie at bellsouth.net (Chris Rodie) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:21:29 -0500 Subject: EPROM utilities In-Reply-To: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <01e301c7053c$cec62fe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <455B1459.5050200@bellsouth.net> Here are some command line tools that will do it. First, convert the binary images to hex with bin2hex. Then use hex2bin to merge the hex files to a single binary. (Command line options are available when you type commands with no args.) Regards, Chris R. Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > Does anyone have a pointer handy to utilities for merging and > splitting ROM images? I have two EPROMs (high and low) that I need to merge > into a single image for disassembly. Ultimately I'll need to re-split the > image. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > Collector of classic computers > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 11:33:13 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:33:13 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/15/06, Richard wrote: > > > For instance, I purchased a Beehive terminal branded as a Cromemco > terminal. Ordinarily, a Beehive terminal is pretty rare in the first > place, but putting the Cromemco branding on it made it more attractive > to collectors. Ironicly, this is probably what kept it from hitting > the scrapper! > I guess the highest price is demanded by "rare products from a well-known brand". Say, maybe i432 computer from intel, Apple III from apple. vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 12:23:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:23:56 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2006 at 12:33, 9000 VAX wrote: > I guess the highest price is demanded by "rare products from a well-known > brand". Say, maybe i432 computer from intel, Apple III from apple. ...and there "rare" is a comparative thing. There were far more more Apple III's produced than, say Jonos systems. Yet it seems that the Apple will command a higher price. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 12:24:56 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:24:56 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455AE5FE.4040906@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <20061114181741.34DE9587A1@mail.wordstock.com> <003e01c70829$f257cc30$6700a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114160038.050e9c60@mail.30below.com> <455A0147.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> <455A4B64.20708@gmail.com> <455AE5FE.4040906@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <455B5B78.4080307@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Well, given that VCFs are not unique to the US, I'm tempted to >>> suggest that they should always be given as coordinates anyway :-) >>> (Although what the longitude of the south pole is, I don't know - do >>> people just pick something at random? :) >> >> The Earth's axis precesses fairly quickly. I don't think the South >> Pole is a single point on the surface from one moment to the next. > > Interesting - I know the magnetic pole shifts around (and of course the > ice on the surface presumably moves around quite a bit, taking any > buildings with it), but surely 90deg south always points to the > geographical pole, no matter what the magnetic pole might be doing? 90 degrees south always points to the South Pole. It doesn't always point to the same place, though. The precession of the Earth's rotational axis causes the location of all coordinates on the Earth's surface to shift by a small amount all the time. It's most easily noticed at the poles. Barring smaller corrections of much shorter period and magnitude, the Earth's axial precession occurs on a period of about 26,000 years. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 12:26:01 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:26:01 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <455AE520.1080905@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <009b01c70814$865a4720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4559BD26.9000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114152323.05e44ca0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061114171633.050ee5c0@mail.30below.com> <455AE520.1080905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <455B5BB9.1020905@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >> Sault Ste. Marie... sure. It's a smallish town, which is why I was >> being somewhat facetious when I mentioned it... ;-) > > Ahhh, I spend half my days in the middle of Minnesota though. It looks > to be about 500 miles to your place, which I guess is do-able in a van. > I'm not sure how close my nearest other VCF would be, but I suspect it's > a lot more than that! But even Toronto is a very long trek to you. You're probably closer to Indiana, where VCF Midwest is held. > Someone just down the road from me is selling an ex-school bus for > peanuts... lots of room for vintage systems in that! ;) How much do school buses go for? Peace... Sridhar From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 15 12:28:23 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:28:23 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems Message-ID: <455B5C47.40B0D6FA@rain.org> > When one is dealing with 70's-era personal computers, does rarity > play any part in the valuation? > > Cheers, > Chuck I haven't seen a lot of correlation between rarity and valuation. A quick example is the Altair vs the Lobo Drives Max-80. The numbers I've heard for the Altair are in the range of 25,000 produced while there were only about 5000 Max-80s produced. There seems to be a lot more correlation between publicity and valuation. Ebay gives a good idea of what the market is like *for those people who deal on ebay*. Judging the value only by looking at the final price can be greatly misleading ... there are a few people who bid the thing to death rather than snipe or bid what they are willing to pay on the *FIRST* bid. When looking at pricing, I almost always go to the bidders list to see what is actually going on. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 15 12:29:38 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:29:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9 - Recaps? In-Reply-To: <20061115160003.F3BF2580EF@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20061115160003.F3BF2580EF@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt - Atari Museum > > > > I couldn't make it to the show, are there any recaps & photos? > > Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here are some pics of > the 30th anniversary cake, Woz, some Apple employees and John Draper. > > http://news.com.com/2300-1042_3-6132816.html I like the way Draper doesn't look icky like he did when I met him at Defcon. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 15 12:38:09 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:38:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455B5C47.40B0D6FA@rain.org> References: <455B5C47.40B0D6FA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2006, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > When one is dealing with 70's-era personal computers, does rarity > > play any part in the valuation? > > Ebay gives a good idea of what the market is like *for those people who > deal on ebay*. Judging the value only by looking at the final price can > be greatly misleading ... there are a few people who bid the thing to > death rather than snipe or bid what they are willing to pay on the > *FIRST* bid. When looking at pricing, I almost always go to the bidders > list to see what is actually going on. To chime in on this, the few times an Apple 1 has appeared on Ebay, they've gone for around $30k. However, I know someone who got one for $10 from a bin of random boards in a used computer parts shop. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 15 12:42:11 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADB "power key always down" plug In-Reply-To: <455ACEFE.8060508@gjcp.net> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Nov 15, 6 08:25:34 am" Message-ID: <200611151842.kAFIgB3q049616@floodgap.com> > > I know that, and my IIci is already set up this way, but this is for a 7300 > > that doesn't have such a facility. > Well, it sounds like all that does is hold in the power button. Maybe > you could wedge your power button with something. That's what the ADB power plug does too, but reversibly/more elegantly. I'll just wire one together and see what happens. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The computer's running some sort of --- program!!! -- "Terminal", bad TV --- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 15 12:42:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:42:17 -0700 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:23:56 -0800. <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <455AEABC.15773.49227A6 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 15 Nov 2006 at 12:33, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > I guess the highest price is demanded by "rare products from a well-known > > brand". Say, maybe i432 computer from intel, Apple III from apple. > > ...and there "rare" is a comparative thing. There were far more more > Apple III's produced than, say Jonos systems. Yet it seems that the > Apple will command a higher price. That seems to support my feeling that the price is driven more by desirability of collectors than rarity. On the other hand that means you can cheaply acquire rare items that are outside the collector spotlight. Weird early S-100 bus based machines come to mind. It seems that you can pick those up fairly cheaply compared to "brand name" systems like Cromemco or SWTPC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From erik at baigar.de Wed Nov 15 13:30:06 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:30:06 +0100 (MET) Subject: Cosmac 1802 Evaluation Kit Rev 2 Message-ID: Hello, on the web I found the interesting web page of www.oddmix.com. Here interesting vintage stuff can be found (most is off topic for this group). Among these was the Cosmac CDP 18S021 Microterminal - new and unused. So I bought one of these and from Karl Nagy, who manages oddmix and is a very kind and interesting person, I got the Manual for the Micro Terminal (MPM224) as well. He sold me a copy of the desired Manual for the Cosmac 1802 Evaluation Kit Rev 2 as well, too. So the problem is solved - thanks a lot, happy computing, Erik. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Nov 15 13:46:39 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:46:39 EST Subject: 8 bit memory/floppy controller available Message-ID: <46f.251fe705.328cc89f@aol.com> Ive got a bunch of 8bit floppy controllers and some memory expansion cards, as well as some 16bit full length memory expansion cards too. If interested, LMK. From jimgeneva at earthlink.net Wed Nov 15 13:47:14 2006 From: jimgeneva at earthlink.net (James C. Geneva) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:47:14 -0700 Subject: Subject: Free SGI R8k POWER Challenge L (Deskside) (CO) Message-ID: <008801c708ee$da4174f0$0f00a8c0@dorisland.net> Hello: Is this still available? I would promise to give it a good home. Jim Geneva From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 15 10:08:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:08:15 -0600 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2006 at 12:33, 9000 VAX wrote: > >> I guess the highest price is demanded by "rare products from a well-known >> brand". Say, maybe i432 computer from intel, Apple III from apple. > > ...and there "rare" is a comparative thing. There were far more more > Apple III's produced than, say Jonos systems. Yet it seems that the > Apple will command a higher price. Seriously? Or do you just mean relative higher price? I'd never thought of my Apple /// as anything particularly interesting, really. The Profile drives are nice, but I'd still not thought of it as a system that would fetch anything other than beer money, even though it perhaps is collectible amongst A/// fans. I would have thought that the money lies with "rare products from a well-known brand that *do* something appealing", and you need all three for a high price. (e.g. the Apple 1 counts because it'd be a fun system to mess around with - the Apple /// is really just a business system, and so the yawn factor kicks in :-) From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Nov 15 15:22:58 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:22:58 -0800 Subject: Digi-Comp 1 is back (from 1960s) References: Message-ID: <000401c708fc$39a84ba0$0201a8c0@hal9000> The Digi-Comp1 3 bit "mechanical" computer is being re-issued in a $49 (USD) kit. This has to be one of the coolest computer learning tools ever. Check out the link: http://www.retrothing.com/2006/02/build_your_own_.html You could always build your own ... But for $49 it beats the hell out of the 40 year old kits on E-pay that sell for more !! Best regards, Steven From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 15:47:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:47:57 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <455B1A8D.31490.54CEE89@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2006 at 10:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > Seriously? Or do you just mean relative higher price? I'd never thought of my > Apple /// as anything particularly interesting, really. The Profile drives are > nice, but I'd still not thought of it as a system that would fetch anything > other than beer money, even though it perhaps is collectible amongst A/// fans. Let's see what ePay turns up in the "Completed Items". Item 230051007402, Apple III, system unit, ended for $250 with "Buy It Now" Item 200045396534, Apple III, system software package (4 floppies), $175.00 Can't really find anything else, so the /// system unit may be an anomaly. I'd always viewed the /// as a huge flop on the part of Apple and have turned down a few that have been offered to me. I'm just trying to understand what makes an item "collectible". Perhaps the cachet of a major maker, particularly one that enjoys something of a religious following has something to do with it. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 15 16:14:13 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:14:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Digi-Comp 1 is back (from 1960s) Message-ID: <200611152214.kAFMEA87038326@keith.ezwind.net> --- Steven Canning wrote: > The Digi-Comp1 3 bit "mechanical" computer is > being re-issued in a $49 > (USD) kit. This has to be one of the coolest > computer learning tools ever. > Check out the link: > > http://www.retrothing.com/2006/02/build_your_own_. html > > You could always build your own ... But for $49 it > beats the hell out of the > 40 year old kits on E-pay that sell for more !! > > Best regards, Steven > Looks very cool and I am tempted to get one, but just how big is the DC1 V2.0 when assembled? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 15 16:46:03 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:46:03 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> <455B1A8D.31490.54CEE89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <007b01c70907$d5fa4c00$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Practical question on valuation of old systems > On 15 Nov 2006 at 10:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm just trying to understand what makes an item "collectible". > Perhaps the cachet of a major maker, particularly one that enjoys > something of a religious following has something to do with it. > > Cheers, > Chuck Sometimes I think people collect a specific brand just to fit in. I have seen a few people on the Mac IRC channel.I frequent go out of their way to get SGI systems that they never do a thing with (not that there is anything wrong with an SGI collector). Amiga gear seems to sell for more then its "worth" because of the Amiga user base that never really left it, while similar items for the 68k Mac are much cheaper since those users migrated to newer Mac machines. I wonder what 68K and early PPC Macs would be worth if Apple had died in the late 1990's. What will SGI gear be worth once SGI is no more (I am sure the brand name will be sold to some Asian company just like Northgate and many other brands were). One of the benefits I found collecting 386/486 era equipment is that few others bother so I can get what I want cheaply (mostly exotic ISA/VLB/EISA cards). TZ From jlewczyk at verizon.net Wed Nov 15 16:59:28 2006 From: jlewczyk at verizon.net (John Lewczyk) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:59:28 -0500 Subject: VCF 9 - Recaps? Message-ID: I missed it too. :-( However, the Apple 30th anniversary event that occurred that is documented at the digibarn web site! http://www.digibarn.com/history/06-11-4-VCF9-Apple30/index.html Audio of the event is available with introductory slide show and lots of photos are available there. Streaming Video coming soon. DVD for sale now. Very cool. John From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 15 17:02:00 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:02:00 -0500 Subject: Digi-Comp 1 is back (from 1960s) Message-ID: <200611152302.kAFN2J8i039870@keith.ezwind.net> It's small, like a shoebox. Tim donated one as a prize at both VCF East 3.0 and VCF 9.0 this year. He's based here in central New Jersey and online at www.mindsontoys.com. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Nov 15 17:13:40 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:13:40 +0100 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061116001340.52be705b@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:41:49 +0200 "Matti Nummi" wrote: > I'm just wondering can I find some help or (MVME)friends in here. I have a small three slot VME box and two m68k CPU boards (MVME147 and MVME167). I don't use it much. Sometimes I plug one of the CPUs into the box to do some testing for NetBSD/mvme68k. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 15 17:38:51 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:38:51 +0000 Subject: VCF 9 - Recaps? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15/11/06 22:59, "John Lewczyk" wrote: > I missed it too. :-( > > However, the Apple 30th anniversary event that occurred that is documented > at the digibarn web site! > > http://www.digibarn.com/history/06-11-4-VCF9-Apple30/index.html Excellent stuff - wish I could've been there! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 17:32:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:32:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488105@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Nov 15, 6 11:53:01 am Message-ID: [...] > Turn on the system ... yep, a hang condition and the FAULT light > on the RL02 goes ON immediately! Removed the MS11-P again, and > everything looks healthy! > > It definitely looks like a defective MS11-P. The effect that it has > on the system (especially the RL02's FAULT light) gives me hope to > be able to repair that module one day! No, I'm really guessing here, but to me that sounds as though that defective memory board is asserting one or other of ACLO and DCLO (you should check this with a logic probe or whatever). Now why should a memeory board assert one of those signals? Well, I am digging into the depths of my brain, but I seem to rememebr at least one DEC memory board for the 11/44 did some quite complex initialisation at power-on (basically it wrote to every word of the memory array to put valid parity or ECC (I forget which it used) bits in place). During that initialisation, it prevented the processor from starting by (you guessed it), asserting one of ACLO or DCLO. In which case, if there's a fault in that initialisation logic, it could permanently assert said signal. As I said, it's a guess. But it might give you a place to start looking. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 17:36:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:36:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455ACE2A.4010509@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Nov 15, 6 08:22:02 am Message-ID: > A really hot temperature-controlled iron is the way to go. Either that > or as you say, snip the chip and pick the pins out one at a time. Even if you decide to do it a pin-at-a-time, a good iron helps a lot. I once tried to clear a hole in a PCB using a cheap hobbyist-grade soldering iron (using the standard method of applying the iron to one side of the PCB and the solder sucker to the other), and it simply couldn't provide enough heat to melt the solder. I ended up grabbing my temperature-controlled iron and had no problems. > > I'm dreading removing the 30-pin thick film module that's wedged tightly > between other thick-film modules in one of my synthesizers. The quality of the PCB makes a big difference. I've had PCBs from cheap-n-nasty consumer electroncs that shed tracks if you look at them, conversely I've had PCBs from high-end test gear that will stand just about anything without problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 17:44:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:44:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 15, 6 08:21:54 am Message-ID: > > Some of the collectors might be able to answer this one--or maybe > not. I'm just curious myself. > > When one is dealing with 70's-era personal computers, does rarity > play any part in the valuation? I think it does, but not as much as in some other collecting hobbies. It would appear that nostalgia pays a big part in it too. At least in the UK, Sinclkir ZX80s and MK14s sell for ridiculously high prices (considering that particularly the former sold in quite large quantities, and neither are interesting or well-designed machines), whereas some much rarer machines get much lower bids on E-bay (there was a Tiger there recently, it sold, IIRC, for about \pounds 30, and that is a pretty rare machine). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 17:49:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:49:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 15, 6 11:42:17 am Message-ID: > That seems to support my feeling that the price is driven more by > desirability of collectors than rarity. On the other hand that means Isn't that rather stating the obvious, in that collectors will pay more for items that they really want? So perhaps the oriignal question should bave heen 'What makes a machine desirable to a collector?' -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 15 18:06:43 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:06:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9 - Recaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061115160515.M78863@shell.lmi.net> > I missed it too. :-( I've had to miss it several years in a row :-( Therefore, realistically, I'd probably not be able to make it to "VCF 90 South" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 15 18:14:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455B1A8D.31490.54CEE89@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> <455B1A8D.31490.54CEE89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061115160858.S78863@shell.lmi.net> Keep in mind that there are a LOT of "new" collectors, who don't really know anything about those days. They've HEARD about Altair, they've HEARD about Apple, they've HEARD about Compaq, etc. Therefore, they are likely to be more interested in an Apple ][ than in a Jonos. They're likely to be more interested in an early Compaq, than in a Coby or an Elcompco. Therefore, although rarity would seemingly be an important factor in collectability value, name recognition goes further. 'course it could be argued that "significance" of the item counts. THAT is why an Apple 1 is so highly prized. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 18:40:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:40:57 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <20061115160858.S78863@shell.lmi.net> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <455B1A8D.31490.54CEE89@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061115160858.S78863@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <455B4319.19943.5EB4F8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2006 at 16:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > Therefore, although rarity would seemingly be an important factor in > collectability value, name recognition goes further. > 'course it could be argued that "significance" of the item counts. > THAT is why an Apple 1 is so highly prized. So why the intense interest in an Apple III, then? Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 15 18:44:40 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:44:40 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <20061115160858.S78863@shell.lmi.net> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> <455B1A8D.31490.54CEE89@cclist.sydex.com> <20061115160858.S78863@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <455BB478.20009@neurotica.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Keep in mind that there are a LOT of "new" collectors, who don't really > know anything about those days. They've HEARD about Altair, they've HEARD > about Apple, they've HEARD about Compaq, etc. Therefore, they are > likely to be more interested in an Apple ][ than in a Jonos. They're > likely to be more interested in an early Compaq, than in a Coby or an > Elcompco. > > Therefore, although rarity would seemingly be an important factor in > collectability value, name recognition goes further. > 'course it could be argued that "significance" of the item counts. > THAT is why an Apple 1 is so highly prized. Every collector or enthusiast has their own reasons for their interest in this hobby, and those reasons usually define what specific machines they're interested in. Myself, I will pay top dollar (if I'm able) in order to get my hands on a machine that I lusted after during my childhood. For example, in my teens, I desperately wanted a Ferguson BigBoard but couldn't afford one. I saw those ads every month in BYTE and just drooled and drooled. Now, I'd just about kill to get one, even though they're really not all THAT rare...I just haven't managed to find one that's available yet. Earlier than that, I drooled over the TRS-80 Model I in the Radio Shack catalogs, back when that model was current. A kind Radio Shack employee once took me aside and showed me around the system when they were first introduced. I wanted one so badly I could practically taste it. I begged and pleaded, but my family did not have a lot of money, and I was never able to get one. I finally got one on eBay about a year ago...fortunately I didn't have to pay a lot of money for it, but I tell you, I nearly cried when I opened that box. I think I only paid about $30 for it...but frankly I'd have paid a LOT more than that if I'd had to, probably up to $1K or maybe even more, because I had deeply personal reasons for wanting it. Now of course, this is classiccmp, where ANY statement of ANY monetary value of more than a few dollars for ANY piece of old computer hardware is usually met with unbelievable amounts of vitriol and ridicule, that may draw some laughter or even doubts of my sanity...but that's the honest truth. We all have our reasons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 15 19:33:38 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:33:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Odd video problem In-Reply-To: <00b401c707bb$acd6b720$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000e01c705e7$f3268280$0b01a8c0@game> <45569C3A.9070406@msm.umr.edu> <001201c706eb$7093bcc0$0b01a8c0@game> <00b401c707bb$acd6b720$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Does the KVM and its cables pass all 15 wires though? If not, that might >> be the cause. Do you make sure the KVM has the monitor switched to that >> computer before powering the computer up? > > I have not checked each pin on the cables to see if they are all > connected (will check one tomorrow). Yes the KVM is switched to the > machine before I power it up. Never had an issue with my newer machines > (or the other 486 ones). Maybe the card is just really sensitive to cable length then. I've run into that before too. -Toth From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Nov 15 19:47:24 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:47:24 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03659B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave McGuire wrote: Myself, I will pay top dollar (if I'm able) in order to get my hands on a machine that I lusted after during my childhood. For example, in my teens, I desperately wanted a Ferguson BigBoard but couldn't afford one. I saw those ads every month in BYTE and just drooled and drooled. Now, I'd just about kill to get one, even though they're really not all THAT rare...I just haven't managed to find one that's available yet. ------------------------ There has long been a theory in book collecting that the best prices and most demand for collectibles is for exactly this reason. Young people grow up, raise a family and mature. Late in life they long for the toys of their youth. They now have the time and money to enjoy those toys. The magic age seems to be 30-45 years from when the item was desired first. In other words, people aged 50-70. Then the market prices slip back to normally, as that generation passes on. The best example I know of this street rods. Go to any custom car show and you will find most of the owners are grey haired and usually affluent. Reliving the joys of their teen years. You can apply the theory to Star Wars figures, books, cars or computers. I invested heavily in certain types of magazines, especally pulps, based on this idea. So far it has paid off handsomely. But in the last ten years the prices have completely tanked. Most of the readers of that era are gone now. And please, I'm not disparaging this yen for the toys of one's youth - I'm probably more guilty than most what with buying Erector and Meccanno sets, science fiction fanzines, and old CDC computers. Billy From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Nov 15 21:55:48 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:55:48 -0500 Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... In-Reply-To: <455AD020.7050401@msu.edu> References: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> <455AD020.7050401@msu.edu> Message-ID: <455BE144.7040009@hawkmountain.net> Josh Dersch wrote: >> Josh Dersch wrote: >>> The RD53 drive in my 11/73 has finally gone to silicon heaven, after >>> a brief resurrection. Given the reputation these drives seem to >>> have, I'm not too surprised. So a few nights ago I dug through my >>> stacks of ancient hard drives and found three possible candidates >>> for replacement: >> >> RD53... Micropolis 1325 I believe. I ran one of these (I believe it >> was an RD53 >> actually... not just a generic 1325) in a PC years ago. >> >> It one day started not wanting to initialize... startup... think >> think, chunk chunk, >> spin down.... >> >> With nothing to lose, I began to experiment... >> >> What I found was that it couldn't apparently locate track 0. If the >> HDA os opened, >> it has two rubber? bumpers for the extreme ends of head motion. One >> for track 0 >> and one for last track ? >> >> They look something like: >> >> ---- >> | \ >> |____ / >> >> with an adjustable slide 'hole' in the middle. >> >> What I'm guessing went wrong is that the material hardens and/or >> shrinks with age. >> >> By carefully tweaking the adjustment on this item to allow a mere few >> thousands of >> an inch inward... the drive started initializing fine every time. >> >> I did not use the drive much after that, so how drive longevity would >> be effected by >> the introduction of contaminants into the HDA assembly I don't know >> (I of course >> don't have a clean room :-) ). >> >> However, if you have a fairly clean space, and can work carefully as >> such not to >> stir up contaminants, you may be able to rescue your RD53. >> >> Another problem I read of someone having a problem with an RD53 had >> to do >> with the brake solenoid assembly needing adjusting as the brake pad >> was dragging >> (it is located under the circuit board on the bottom as I recall... >> no inside the HDA). > > I actually did something similar with my RD53. When I got the > machine, the drive was dead -- it'd spin up, do nothing for ~30 > seconds and then spin down. > I wagered that the heads were not moving, probably a stiction problem > -- since I'd nothing to lose (same as your situation) I took the cover > off, and while the drive was powered up, I gave the heads a small > nudge. This got the drive working again. I was pretty pleased with > myself :). Ran long enough to get 2.11BSD installed on it, and > everything was sunshine and lollipops until last weekend when it died > again. As I recall, that was the behavior mine had too... slightly tweaking that bumper solved it.... Bet if I dig it out of storage, it still works... other than the issue (most likely due to the materials aging), that drive was pretty 'bullet proof'... -- Curt > > > It still spins up, but it never seems to get to a "ready" condition. > Or at least, that's how it _sounds_ -- it spins up, then sounds like > it starts to spin down a tiny bit, then spins up again in rapid > succession. It will do this for as long as I leave it running, with > no head activity at all. > > So I'd like to get one of the spare PC drives I have running in this > thing, but nothing's ever that simple, it seems... :) > > (On an almost completely unrelated note, I've noticed that my mails > take 1-2 days to actually make it to the list. I sent out my original > mail on Sunday afternoon (11/12) and I didn't see it show up on the > list (i.e. it didn't show up in my inbox) until Tuesday morning! > Anyone else have this issue? I know I don't get delays like this > sending email elsewhere...) > > Thanks, > Josh > From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Nov 15 22:17:19 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:17:19 -0500 Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061115231133.012c16e8@mail.degnanco.net> I seek a MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) is for a CBM 8296 motherboard. The chip is running hot and there is no screen output. The 6545 is the Cathode Ray Controller for the built-in monitor. Anyone with information on how I may obtain such chip, please let me know privately. Will pay $$. Thanks. Bill D From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Nov 15 23:26:35 2006 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:26:35 +0000 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems Message-ID: <111620060526.18821.455BF68B000395D70000498522064244130B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels of files were found. For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit http://ses.symantec.com/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 16 00:03:04 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:03:04 -0600 Subject: Free SGI R8k POWER Challenge L (Deskside) (CO) Message-ID: Don't know who got it, but I've been informed that this has been given away to someone. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 16 00:05:26 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:05:26 -0600 Subject: Altos III terminal problems Message-ID: Well- my terminal (Altos III) was a bit too unobtrusive, and wound up being left on for a couple of weeks straight. Now, it has a somewhat anemic beep and the screen comes up with garbage. Looks like possibly a RAM issue. Anyone have experience or ideas? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Nov 16 01:12:43 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:12:43 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/44 problem - RUN stays on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488107@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Tony wrote: > [...] > > > Turn on the system ... yep, a hang condition and the FAULT light > > on the RL02 goes ON immediately! Removed the MS11-P again, and > > everything looks healthy! > > > > It definitely looks like a defective MS11-P. The effect that it > > has on the system (especially the RL02's FAULT light) gives me > > hope to be able to repair that module one day! > > No, I'm really guessing here, but to me that sounds as though > that defective memory board is asserting one or other of ACLO > and DCLO (you should check this with a logic probe or whatever). > > Now why should a memeory board assert one of those signals? > Well, I am digging into the depths of my brain, but I seem to > rememebr at least one DEC memory board for the 11/44 did some > quite complex initialisation at power-on (basically it wrote > to every word of the memory array to put valid parity or ECC > (I forget which it used) bits in place). During that > initialisation, it prevented the processor from starting by > (you guessed it), asserting one of ACLO or DCLO. In which case, > if there's a fault in that initialisation logic, it could > permanently assert said signal. > > As I said, it's a guess. But it might give you a place to > start looking. > > -tony Thanks for the tip, Tony! AFAIK, the MS11-P printset is included in the 11X44 print set, and I have put that on top of the 11/44 rack a few days ago, just in case I'd need it ...! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 02:02:19 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:02:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altos III terminal problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <196593.94435.qm@web52712.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Quinn wrote: > Well- my terminal (Altos III) was a bit too > unobtrusive, and wound up being left on for a couple > of weeks > straight. Now, it has a somewhat anemic beep and the > screen comes up with garbage. > > Looks like possibly a RAM issue. Anyone have > experience or ideas? > I'd start with checking the power supply - IIRC those Altos terminals were mostly rebadged Wyse terminals. Check the power supply voltages and reseat socketed chips. When you say garbage - are you still getting the status line with garbage text, or is the entire screen covered in garbage? Or, are elements still there but displaying wrong, I've had character roms fail or chip-creep out of sockets and do some strange things. The anemic beep kinda hints toward the power supply, it could need capacitors, I fixed a Honeywell terminal that would give an anemic beep and no display by replacing the filters for the logic supply. Good luck! -Ian From spedraja at ono.com Thu Nov 16 02:13:24 2006 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:13:24 +0100 Subject: Bell Dataphone 303 In-Reply-To: <455A4A31.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <451DC88A0002CB0E@resmta02.ono.com> Hello. I am searching for documentation about the Bell 303 Modem. This is referenced in some documents like a "Bell Datastation 303", but others mention the "Bell Dataphone 303". In the few images available, I can see the Modem cabinet with one Dataphone over it. My interest for this item is related with my searching of information about the early Arpanet. Every IMP could get connected up to FOUR Bell 303, connected every one to Wideband lines. Now I should like to learn how the Modem's side worked in terms of operation (protocol to establish connections between modems, manual operations, lights, sounds and other indicators of these devices, etc). I should agree to obtain any help, information and manual available about this matter. Thanks in advance Sergio From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 16 04:52:36 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:52:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Formatting non-DEC disks using zrqch0... In-Reply-To: <455AD020.7050401@msu.edu> References: <4557B978.7030809@msu.edu> <455A93C5.5050306@hawkmountain.net> <455AD020.7050401@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2006, Josh Dersch wrote: > It still spins up, but it never seems to get to a "ready" condition. Or at > least, that's how it _sounds_ -- it spins up, then sounds like it starts to > spin down a tiny bit, then spins up again in rapid succession. It will do > this for as long as I leave it running, with no head activity at all. I have two Micropolis 1335 with the same problem. I've found out that the drive gets ready when you do the following: - With power off, remove the small two conductor film cable from the control board to the drive (this is the head actuator power cable) - Power up the drive and wait until it has reached its speed - Plug in the cable et voil?, the drive makes "pling" and is ready This made me build a little dirty hack to the drive. I've put a small relais (or what you call solenoid) between the logic board and the actuator cable that gets energized after a delay of several seconds (enough time to let the drive spin up). This is the automated version of plugging the cable out and in... The drive works fine since then. BTW when my drives started with this problem, they ran fine as long as they were powered up. But as soon as I powererd them down they wouldn't start normally, I always had to wait at least two weaks, then they would start again. If I tried after one week, it didn't work. Christian PS: I'm happy for each MFM drive I can get, even defective ones. They're getting very rare now. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 08:15:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:15:45 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> On Nov 15, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I guess the highest price is demanded by "rare products from a >>> well-known >>> brand". Say, maybe i432 computer from intel, Apple III from apple. >> ...and there "rare" is a comparative thing. There were far more >> more Apple III's produced than, say Jonos systems. Yet it seems >> that the Apple will command a higher price. > > Seriously? Or do you just mean relative higher price? I'd never > thought of my Apple /// as anything particularly interesting, > really. The Profile drives are nice, but I'd still not thought of > it as a system that would fetch anything other than beer money, ... Well that's one thing that people here can never seem to wrap their brains around. A particular piece of equipment (in your possession, mine, or someone else's) may have a wildly different value than either you or I think it does (or should), for reasons which we may not understand. We must have faith that the person spending (what we consider to be a) a huge amount of money on something is doing it for a reason, and we're not qualified to judge the merit of that reason. It all boils down to respect for another person's judgment and opinions, really. Your Apple ///...I've never played with one, and I'd like to. I've never been a pre-PowerPC-Mac Apple person. I'd pay maybe twenty bucks for a ///, just to learn more about it. A person who lusted after a /// when they were new, though...like I did for the TRS-80 Model I...That person, and that person alone, decides what that machine is worth TO THEM, and the reason why is something that that person decides the merits of. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 08:31:33 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:31:33 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <455C7645.8010004@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Well that's one thing that people here can never seem to wrap their > brains around. A particular piece of equipment (in your possession, > mine, or someone else's) may have a wildly different value than either > you or I think it does (or should), for reasons which we may not > understand. We must have faith that the person spending (what we > consider to be a) a huge amount of money on something is doing it for a > reason, and we're not qualified to judge the merit of that reason. > > It all boils down to respect for another person's judgment and > opinions, really. > > Your Apple ///...I've never played with one, and I'd like to. I've > never been a pre-PowerPC-Mac Apple person. I'd pay maybe twenty bucks > for a ///, just to learn more about it. A person who lusted after a /// > when they were new, though...like I did for the TRS-80 Model I...That > person, and that person alone, decides what that machine is worth TO > THEM, and the reason why is something that that person decides the > merits of. More than money, for my collection, I had to sacrifice most of the space in my house. Many people would think I'm crazy for collecting machines that take up hundreds of square feet each, but for me the motivation is to play with the machines I lusted after an *account* on. Peace... Sridhar From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 16 09:18:51 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:18:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: FS eBay: MMJ adapter kit & TRS-80 model 100 printer cable Message-ID: I just posted two new items on eBay and thought I'd give anyone who might be interested a heads up. The first is a TRS-80 model 100/102/200/600 printer cable. I tried to duplicate the original 26-1409 cable as best I could. Its listed as item # 120053986869 The second is a MMJ adapter kit that I mentioned not long ago on classiccmp. I finally had time to make a few more and listed one to see how it would do. Its listed as item # 120053989909 I still can't believe what vendors are getting for genuine H8571-J (and compatible/generic!) adapters... I still have TRS-80 cassette and serial din cables listed, as well as my usual assortment of telecommunications tools, for those who might also be interested in those. -Toth From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 10:11:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:11:56 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C7645.8010004@gmail.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com>, <455C7645.8010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 9:31, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > More than money, for my collection, I had to sacrifice most of the space > in my house. Many people would think I'm crazy for collecting machines > that take up hundreds of square feet each, but for me the motivation is > to play with the machines I lusted after an *account* on. Then, it must be like chocolate. Work for Hershey's for a few years on the line and you probably don't have much of a taste left. Being in a manufacturer's special systems group, I got all of the hands-on time that I could possibly want (mostly in the hours between 11PM and 7AM) on big iron. Ever use a Cyber 74 cluster as a keypunch? Played baseball and other games for hours on the operator's console on an otherwise idle machine. When I moved into microporocessors, the same was true, only the hours were better and I could take a system home with me. While there were some clever hardware implementations and interesting programming, I've never developed a desire to even run an emulator for one of these old systems. Even in the microprocessors I've accumulated, it's mostly "power them up and see if they'll boot" and then put them away again or get rid of them. A modern PC can do so much more and more quickly. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 16 05:14:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:14:10 -0600 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <455C4802.5090803@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 15, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Your Apple ///...I've never played with one, and I'd like to. I've > never been a pre-PowerPC-Mac Apple person. I'd pay maybe twenty bucks > for a ///, just to learn more about it. A person who lusted after a /// > when they were new, though...like I did for the TRS-80 Model I...That > person, and that person alone, decides what that machine is worth TO > THEM, and the reason why is something that that person decides the > merits of. True - but then why the interest in the ///? I doubt that many people used one (relatively) or lusted after one when they were new. Other than the Apple name there doesn't seem to be that much to attract people to them (mine's kind of interesting because of the clunky, low-capacity hard drives - but that's probably not typical of most ///'s that change hands) Like you, I kind of put it in the '20 buck' category. Which means I could see someone who *really* wanted one maybe handing over a bit more - like 40 or so. Then it's got a couple of Profiles and a bit of boxed software, so maybe add 20 on top of that. Still a far cry from the prices that they do seem to fetch, though. Perhaps I'm just underestimating the 'I simply have to have that!' factor which seems to play a part in a lot of transactions, though :-) cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 10:19:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:19:36 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com>, <455C7645.8010004@gmail.com> <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <455C8F98.8040001@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2006 at 9:31, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> More than money, for my collection, I had to sacrifice most of the space >> in my house. Many people would think I'm crazy for collecting machines >> that take up hundreds of square feet each, but for me the motivation is >> to play with the machines I lusted after an *account* on. > > Then, it must be like chocolate. Work for Hershey's for a few years > on the line and you probably don't have much of a taste left. > > Being in a manufacturer's special systems group, I got all of the > hands-on time that I could possibly want (mostly in the hours between > 11PM and 7AM) on big iron. Ever use a Cyber 74 cluster as a > keypunch? Played baseball and other games for hours on the > operator's console on an otherwise idle machine. When I moved into > microporocessors, the same was true, only the hours were better and I > could take a system home with me. Guess what? I work in a mainframe-manufacturing facility, and I can get my hands on mainframes at work too. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 16 10:21:30 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:21:30 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a manual for the IBM 5140? Message-ID: <003d01c7099b$4623ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm looking for the "Guide to Operations" -- the spiral-bound user manual. From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 16 10:39:01 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:39:01 -0500 Subject: Anyone near Dallas, Texas? Message-ID: <004801c7099d$b90f4690$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I need some shipping assistance. Please ping me off-list at evan at snarc.net .... thanks! From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 16 10:43:09 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:43:09 +0200 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? Message-ID: > Do you have any hardware documentation for them? Specifically I'm >interested in I/O addresses and such, as I'd love to throw some code in >EPROMs and do some low-level hacking with them. If You have separate memory boards they are probably pre-mvme147. There I have mvme130/131 and mvme141 schemantics + docs. Some pdf and some tif - files. _________________________________________________________________ Nyt l?yd?t etsim?si tiedot nopeasti niin koneeltasi kuin netist?. http://toolbar.msn.fi From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 16 11:03:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:03:23 -0700 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:49:06 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > That seems to support my feeling that the price is driven more by > > desirability of collectors than rarity. On the other hand that means > > Isn't that rather stating the obvious, in that collectors will pay more > for items that they really want? Maybe it seems that way, but the original poster was speculating that rarity was the price driver. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pechter at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 11:48:19 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:48:19 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084880E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <4553A37D.9080901@mindspring.com> <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I've got a Zorba, VT180, Rainbow and a Vaxstation 3100 M38. I've got no idea what any of them are worth. All are in working condition -- however none are in the original boxes... etc. I would love to find out what they are worth since I'm considering selling them.,, or donating them. Bill On 11/15/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Some of the collectors might be able to answer this one--or maybe > not. I'm just curious myself. > > When one is dealing with 70's-era personal computers, does rarity > play any part in the valuation? > > For example, would a wood-cased People's Computer Z80 box right out > of Berkeley command significantly more than, say, an early Apple II > or a Zorba? (Not that I have any of these). > > I've been browsing the ePay auctions and I can't seem to make heads > nor tails about what sets the value of early personal computers. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 16 12:09:35 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:09:35 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200611161809.kAGI9gsb075130@keith.ezwind.net> When dealing with ebay one must keep in mind..... The ebay sale price is but a single bidding increment over the top price the next higher bidder is willing to spend. It is not what the buyer is willing to pay or values it at. The asking price or starting bid, represents the smallest value the seller is willing to part with it for, in the case there is only one bidder. Often if you get a deal on ebay it is because no one else watching cares about the item as much as you do at that moment in time. When the bidding goes to new highs from the viewpoint point of an observer, then it is due to the desire of two or more bidders looking to fill the same need that is not shared by the observer. Multiple collectors digging throught the same pile of junk will come up with differant treasures each for their own personal reasons. I would guess better than half of us here is over 50 and have children who will be stuck with the choice of the dumpster or ebay to deal with our collections when we are no longer able to store and protect them. Unless we start document our collections now, what are the chances of our children or for that matter our grandchildren understanding the value when the time comes? It is in the self interest of every collector to find the deals and freebees without much fanfare, collectors will often tell great stories about their best finds, long after the fact. Collectors build collections. Dealers break collections up and attempt to profit from their disposal, long sighted dealors are often also collecting investors and often hold out choice pieces for their own collections and future sale when the market is right. Dealers are always looking for collections to breakup and collectors and investors to chery pick their most recient lot. Investors take many forms, ask most collectors and they will either think collection will increase in value over time while others are not quite sure why they continue to save all this junk anymore. My question is how do we value our collections for insurance purposes, or god forbid as part of our estate for tax purposes ? If one was to build and host an online ComputerCollectables list/gallery, could a knowledge base be created to document collections that someday would be usable as a price guide. Or would such an attempt be doomed, due to lack of input from the real world ? One last thought ... On the subject of ebay, it supprises me that the ebay "make offer" option is not used more with computer collectables. I guess that few are willing to pay the higher listing fees by setting a higher starting bid, while at the same time revealing the fact that they might be willing to take a lower offer, if there is little or no interest. later .... Bob Bradlee From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 16 13:04:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:04:50 -0700 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:09:35 -0500. <200611161809.kAGI9gsb075130@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200611161809.kAGI9gsb075130 at keith.ezwind.net>, "Bob" writes: > My question is how do we value our collections for insurance purposes, > or god forbid as part of our estate for tax purposes ? That's an interesting question. The insurance valuation should be for the replacement cost, which for a hard to find item could be pricey. The estate tax valuation should probably be lower as here the consideration is what you would get if you tried to sell it, not what it would cost to replace it. I'm thinking in many cases the money I'd get from selling what I have would be much less than the money I'd need to replace it. It sounds weird, but you may need to pay more to replace something than there is interest in purchasing the same item from you. > If one was to build and host an online ComputerCollectables > list/gallery, > could a knowledge base be created to document collections > that someday would be > usable as a price guide. Or would such an attempt > be doomed, due to lack of i nput from the real world ? In order for this to be useful, it has to be *actual* price data not what people "think" something should cost. The latter is a highly subjective evaluation and you will find many of those in "Collectible Microcomputers" where I see that on ebay, things *never* go for the lowball price listed in that book. The former is the kind of thing you see on ebay. It may not jibe with your subjective evaluation, but it *is* an actual price that someone paid (assuming no shill bidders). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 13:19:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:19:15 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C8F98.8040001@gmail.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com>, <455C8F98.8040001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <455C4933.26898.9EB2779@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 11:19, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Guess what? I work in a mainframe-manufacturing facility, and I can get > my hands on mainframes at work too. 8-) This reminds me of a (fictional) story... A small New England town resolved to remedy a social problem. There was a (what's PC for "Village Idiot"?) person who was always at loose ends getting into trouble and generally being a nuisance. So someone hit on the idea of employing him. So our hero, call him Joe, was offered the task of polishing the Civil War cannon in the courthouse square every day in exchange for the princely sum of fifty cents. Joe discharged his duty admirably for a dozen years. Rain or shine, snow or drought, you'd see him carefully polishing the old artillery piece every single day. One day, however, Joe failed to show; then, no Joe the next day. The good townspeople, fearing that Joe had fallen ill or worse, sent a group of citizens to look for him. They found Joe in his little shack, well and in good spirits. When asked why he'd stopped showing up to his job, Joe responded, "Oh, I don't need to any more--I've saved up my money and bought my own cannon..." Cheers, Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 13:20:34 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:20:34 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <200611160418.kAG4IN5v048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5v048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <455CBA02.5030108@yahoo.com> Dave (and all), I agree with you 100% I just won an LNW-80 Computer on eBay. I've been trying to win one for YEARS!!! I probably paid more than I could afford for it. But, I'd had enough at losing auctions. It's not the Model II I wanted, but a Model I (as far as I can tell). I used to work for "Stoney Clove Computer Center" in NYC that was a dealer for LNW computers, and also for Percom. I bought my Percom Doubler for my Model I from them in 1981 and then, went to work for them in 1982. I also worked for Lawrence S, Epstein Associates that also sold LNW-80 Computers and Corvus Hard Drives and Networks. I was never smart enough to put one on Layaway either time. An LNW-80 Model II has been my "Holy Grail" for at least 20 years. The Model I is the next best thing. The only other pieces of computer equipment I'd like to have (that I consider "grails") are: - A BeBox (Which will now be my next target of opportunity) - A Trash Compactor Board (A TRS-80 Model III Clone that fits in a Model I case) - A Hydra Card (A Mac Plus on an ISA card that works in a PC) - A 20th Century Macintosh - A G4 Cube - A Color NeXT Station (which I know I can buy from several vendors or on eBay. I stupidly passed one up for $50.00 at a computer show). Nobody knows about the Trash Compactor, and I can't find all the docs I used to have about it. It might be a figment of my imagination... But, when that LNW-80 gets here... I'll probably cry like a baby too... Here's hoping that my Model I disks are still good and will boot the thing. I found my masters of Multi-DOS and DoubleDOS, and somewhere I have masters for DOSPlus, NewDOS/80 and TRS-DOS. I bought 100 360k disks, so the first thing is to make backup copies and label them nice. I'm going to try putting a 720k 3.5" drive on it (which ought to work well) and make bootable 3.5" disks just so I have more sturdy backups. Since it comes with an LNDoubler, I'm hoping it's the 8"/5.25" kind that might let me put 1.2mb/1.44mb Drives on it... My friend Tom and I are going to spend an afternoon sometime in the future repairing my Model I TRS-80 and get it working again. It's festooned with upgrades from Dennis Bathory Kitz's book (Reset Switch, Lowercase, Composite Video out, Alpha Joystick compatible port, Turbo Mod with Tri-Color LED, built in speaker and amplifier, External KB connector). In fact, those mods let me identify it twice after it had been stolen. Al Phila, PA Dave McGuire wrote: Every collector or enthusiast has their own reasons for their interest in this hobby, and those reasons usually define what specific machines they're interested in. Myself, I will pay top dollar (if I'm able) in order to get my hands on a machine that I lusted after during my childhood. For example, in my teens, I desperately wanted a Ferguson BigBoard but couldn't afford one. I saw those ads every month in BYTE and just drooled and drooled. Now, I'd just about kill to get one, even though they're really not all THAT rare...I just haven't managed to find one that's available yet. Earlier than that, I drooled over the TRS-80 Model I in the Radio Shack catalogs, back when that model was current. A kind Radio Shack employee once took me aside and showed me around the system when they were first introduced. I wanted one so badly I could practically taste it. I begged and pleaded, but my family did not have a lot of money, and I was never able to get one. I finally got one on eBay about a year ago...fortunately I didn't have to pay a lot of money for it, but I tell you, I nearly cried when I opened that box. I think I only paid about $30 for it...but frankly I'd have paid a LOT more than that if I'd had to, probably up to $1K or maybe even more, because I had deeply personal reasons for wanting it. Now of course, this is classiccmp, where ANY statement of ANY monetary value of more than a few dollars for ANY piece of old computer hardware is usually met with unbelievable amounts of vitriol and ridicule, that may draw some laughter or even doubts of my sanity...but that's the honest truth. We all have our reasons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 16 13:36:40 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:36:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455CBA02.5030108@yahoo.com> References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5v048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455CBA02.5030108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Al Hartman wrote: > The only other pieces of computer equipment I'd like to have (that I consider > "grails") are: >... > - A Trash Compactor Board (A TRS-80 Model III Clone that fits in a Model I > case) >... > Nobody knows about the Trash Compactor, and I can't find all the docs I used > to have about it. It might be a figment of my imagination... It's not a figment of your imagination. :-) I've seen at least two of them on Ebay in the last two years. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 16 15:02:45 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:02:45 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200611162102.kAGL2us4081022@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:04:50 -0700, Richard wrote: >In article <200611161809.kAGI9gsb075130 at keith.ezwind.net>, > "Bob" writes: >> If one was to build and host an online ComputerCollectables >> list/gallery, > could a knowledge base be created to document collections >> that someday would be > usable as a price guide. Or would such an attempt >> be doomed, due to lack of i nput from the real world ? >In order for this to be useful, it has to be *actual* price data not >what people "think" something should cost. The latter is a highly >subjective evaluation and you will find many of those in "Collectible >Microcomputers" where I see that on ebay, things *never* go for the >lowball price listed in that book. The former is the kind of thing >you see on ebay. It may not jibe with your subjective evaluation, but >it *is* an actual price that someone paid (assuming no shill bidders). Other than ebay, what other source of priceing information exsists ? Dealers will most likely report a differant price than a collector. Collector will brag to other collectors about getting something for $10 (plus $8 shipping/handeling) as a great deal for only $10 or about $20 depending on how the conversation is spinning. The seller recieved an $18 paypal payment for the sale, making the true cost to the collector $18, yet as far as the dealor is concerned it sold for $10 even though there may have only been $4 in costs covered by the $8 shipping fee. So this same item can be described as having a value between $10 and $18 with the most accurate value being somewhere around $14 amount the dealer got for it..... oops forgot to account for paypal and ebay fees, pick a number between $8something to $20. And how many dealers are going to publish the true taxable amount of the sale :) Concidering all price reporting is subjective I think a blog or wiki format like might work best. The work will be in finding people to seed it, concidering the lack of chatter and comments in the IBMcollectables gallery I would have to be heavily automates with a voteing system for determining price ranges ..... now that is a thought.... till later Bob >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 15:13:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:13:52 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <200611162102.kAGL2us4081022@keith.ezwind.net> References: , <200611162102.kAGL2us4081022@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <455C6410.20056.A54161F@cclist.sydex.com> The best idea on this stuff is to take it up with an insurance underwriter. Often, for collectible items of no formally established value, they will issue a "blanket policy" for your collection that will cover theft or loss up to a certain fixed dollar amount. I've done this with musical instruments--and I suspect that some collectors of bottles, clothespins and barbed wire have similar arrangements. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 15:28:28 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:28:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C6410.20056.A54161F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> can anyone foresee old puters going on the block at posh auction houses like Christie's or Southebie's? It happened with comic books maybe 15 years ago. There are a few dozen of those that are worth mega bucks though. With puters, I'd have to say (at least at this present time), it's merely a handful. I personally don't think puters by themselves will ever gain that sort of recognition, but perhaps a category, like old elec- tronic gear, could one day possibly. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > The best idea on this stuff is to take it up with an > insurance > underwriter. Often, for collectible items of no > formally established > value, they will issue a "blanket policy" for your > collection that > will cover theft or loss up to a certain fixed > dollar amount. > > I've done this with musical instruments--and I > suspect that some > collectors of bottles, clothespins and barbed wire > have similar > arrangements. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. Www2.nextag.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 15:32:52 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:32:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Geek/Tech/Classic computers in Omaha In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1448@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <20061116213253.16663.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > So I'll be in Omaha for a week. Any good tech > attractions/stores/things to see? > > Kelly > > Goodwill...Salvation Army...local recycling facility. That answer enough 4 u hoser? You could post an ad before you get out there. Never know what could turn up... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Nov 16 11:16:54 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:16:54 +0100 Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20061115231133.012c16e8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061115231133.012c16e8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <455C9D06.5050004@iais.fraunhofer.de> B. Degnan schrieb: > I seek a MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) is for a CBM 8296 > motherboard. The chip is running hot and there is no screen output. > The 6545 is the Cathode Ray Controller for the built-in monitor. > Anyone with information on how I may obtain such chip, please let me > know privately. Will pay $$. > Thanks. > Bill D The 6545 and 6845 is still so common that it is no problem to obtain one. Look at www.unicornelectronics.com, for instance. -- Holger Veit From lager57 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 11:18:08 2006 From: lager57 at yahoo.com (Joe Klapatch) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:18:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Silent 700 Model 707 Message-ID: <20061116171808.54084.qmail@web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What is that pinout for the Acoustic Coupler port for the TI 707? There are 6-pins (2 rows of 3). What is TX, RX, GND? Is is Async, or is ther clock? Any control leads? Any information is appreciated. Joe Klapatch Galloway, NJ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. Www.nextag.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 15:36:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:36:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455ACE2A.4010509@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20061116213634.14125.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> > Tony Duell wrote: > > > In any case, you should be more worried about > damaging the PCB (for > > example the through-hole plating) than the chips. > 64K DRAMs are not hard > > to get, after all. In fact, if I wasn't sure of my > abilities to desolder > > the ICs, I'd cut the pins off them and then > desolder them one at time > > from the PCB. Can't always snip the pins. Generally speaking, desoldering a chip isn't necessarily catastrophic, but what if it's old and irreplaceable? And you don't have access to all that high tech stuph. It just seems to me that if you flood the chip with cool water, you'll probably totally eliminate the possibility of smoking it. Somethings just can't be replaced you know... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/ mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt - http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Nov 16 15:37:02 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:37:02 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS archiving and replacement In-Reply-To: <200610192205.k9JM5txr008605@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200610192205.k9JM5txr008605@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <455CD9FE.1090204@splab.cas.neu.edu> Thanks again for all the ideas in recovering my TK50 tapes and getting them to CD. Worked like a charm. Now I just have a few tapes that need VMSTPC or the like, as they are bootable. Now for part two. If I really want to get rid of my MicroVax 3100 and run a simulator, can I really have a stable system with something like SIMH? The needs are modest: All of my printers and terminals are off Decnet/LAT, and I can put the two modems over there as well and take them off the serial ports. I can probably also figure out a way to make backups, probably by backing up the system disk image on the PC. I think I would use XP. In reading the SIMH documents it seems like a second ethernet card is necesary, but that seems reasonable. However, can I run something older like VMS 5.5-2? Could I just make images of my current drives and put them on the XP hard drive as images? That would make it pretty simple. Well as usual, any thoughts are welcome, as it seems like SIMH is the way to go, but I just want to make sure I didn't miss something obvious. Joe Heck Zane H. Healy wrote: > For software distribution tapes, I'd recommend VMSTPC, and make tape images. > For data, it becomes a bit more interesting, but I'd still recommend making > images with VMSTPC, and you'll most likely also want to take a look at the > lddriver suggestion and make your own CD's. > > The question really becomes in what form do you want to access this data in > the future. If you make TPC images of the tapes, you can then either copy > them back to tapes at some point in the future, or use one of the SIMH tools > to turn it into a SIMH TAP file. > > Zane > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 15:44:30 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:44:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) In-Reply-To: <455C9D06.5050004@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Holger Veit wrote: > B. Degnan schrieb: > > I seek a MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) is for > a CBM 8296 > > motherboard. The chip is running hot and there is > no screen output. > > The 6545 is the Cathode Ray Controller for the > built-in monitor. > > Anyone with information on how I may obtain such > chip, please let me > > know privately. Will pay $$. > > Thanks. > > Bill D > The 6545 and 6845 is still so common that it is no > problem to obtain > one. Look at www.unicornelectronics.com, for > instance. > > -- > Holger Veit Or desolder it from a CGA card or any other IBM compatible with built in video. I recommend a cool water wave tank for the process. Are they absolute drop in replacements for one another? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310k for $999/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 15:46:32 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:46:32 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com>, <455C7645.8010004@gmail.com> <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2006, at 11:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> More than money, for my collection, I had to sacrifice most of the >> space >> in my house. Many people would think I'm crazy for collecting >> machines >> that take up hundreds of square feet each, but for me the >> motivation is >> to play with the machines I lusted after an *account* on. > > Then, it must be like chocolate. Work for Hershey's for a few years > on the line and you probably don't have much of a taste left. > > Being in a manufacturer's special systems group, I got all of the > hands-on time that I could possibly want (mostly in the hours between > 11PM and 7AM) on big iron. Ever use a Cyber 74 cluster as a > keypunch? Played baseball and other games for hours on the > operator's console on an otherwise idle machine. When I moved into > microporocessors, the same was true, only the hours were better and I > could take a system home with me. > > While there were some clever hardware implementations and interesting > programming, I've never developed a desire to even run an emulator > for one of these old systems. Even in the microprocessors I've > accumulated, it's mostly "power them up and see if they'll boot" and > then put them away again or get rid of them. A modern PC can do so > much more and more quickly. That all depends on, I'm assuming, the depth of one's affinity for the machines, and the kind of person one is. I cut my teeth on a PDP-11/34 running RSX-11/M (later RSTS/E) in the early 1980s...I used that machine every day for both serious and recreational tasks. I'm not even close to losing the taste for that chocolate...I have an 11/34 two feet from me, an 11/83 closer than that, and upwards of a dozen other PDP-11s under this roof. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 16 15:46:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:46:33 -0700 Subject: FW: Silent 700 Model 707 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:18:08 -0800. <20061116171808.54084.qmail@web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061116171808.54084.qmail at web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Joe Klapatch writes: > What is that pinout for the Acoustic Coupler port for > the TI 707? There are 6-pins (2 rows of 3). What is > TX, RX, GND? Is is Async, or is ther clock? Any > control leads? Did you try manx? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 15:52:01 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C4802.5090803@yahoo.co.uk> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , <455AEABC.15773.49227A6@cclist.sydex.com> <455B3B6F.5020806@yahoo.co.uk> <69E43689-44F9-46A6-BA95-3110BFD1032B@neurotica.com> <455C4802.5090803@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3F65C7EE-1334-4A6F-A076-6DA95B106A5D@neurotica.com> On Nov 16, 2006, at 6:14 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On Nov 15, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Your Apple ///...I've never played with one, and I'd like to. >> I've never been a pre-PowerPC-Mac Apple person. I'd pay maybe >> twenty bucks for a ///, just to learn more about it. A person who >> lusted after a /// when they were new, though...like I did for the >> TRS-80 Model I...That person, and that person alone, decides what >> that machine is worth TO THEM, and the reason why is something >> that that person decides the merits of. > > True - but then why the interest in the ///? *My* interest? Only the fact that it's a machine that I've not yet explored...nothing more. Other folks? No clue. > I doubt that many people used one (relatively) or lusted after one > when they were new. I'm just guessing here, but I'm assuming that Apple ][ and //e people (and there sure were a lot of 'em) just assumed the /// was "more of the same, but better" because it was a follow-on product. > Other than the Apple name there doesn't seem to be that much to > attract people to them (mine's kind of interesting because of the > clunky, low-capacity hard drives - but that's probably not typical > of most ///'s that change hands) > > Like you, I kind of put it in the '20 buck' category. Which means I > could see someone who *really* wanted one maybe handing over a bit > more - like 40 or so. Then it's got a couple of Profiles and a bit > of boxed software, so maybe add 20 on top of that. Still a far cry > from the prices that they do seem to fetch, though. Well maybe, but that's a matter of opinion. I understand yours in this case, because I share it. Again, we're not qualified to judge the sensibility of other folks' actions in this matter because they may involve the weirdest of all the human firmware features...emotion. > Perhaps I'm just underestimating the 'I simply have to have that!' > factor which seems to play a part in a lot of transactions, though :-) Quite possibly. That happened to me when I bought my H-8. Boy was I eating ramens for a while after that. I'm willing to bet, though, there's a bona-fide personal affinity at work in a lot of those situations...not just "auction fever". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 15:53:43 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:53:43 -0500 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <660293F9-B268-4630-AA7E-CF0C99B5700B@neurotica.com> On Nov 16, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Matti Nummi wrote: >> Do you have any hardware documentation for them? Specifically >> I'm interested in I/O addresses and such, as I'd love to throw >> some code in EPROMs and do some low-level hacking with them. > > If You have separate memory boards they are probably pre-mvme147. > There I have mvme130/131 and mvme141 schemantics + docs. > Some pdf and some tif - files. "147" sounds VERY familiar. I've not really "gotten into" those boards, but I'd sure like to. Could you share your files? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 15:58:15 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:58:15 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <173ADC4B-8F43-4F33-9A11-A9C62DEC43C7@neurotica.com> On Nov 16, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Chris M wrote: > can anyone foresee old puters going on the block at > posh auction houses like Christie's or Southebie's? It > happened with comic books maybe 15 years ago. There > are a few dozen of those that are worth mega bucks > though. With puters, I'd have to say (at least at this > present time), it's merely a handful. I personally > don't think puters by themselves will ever gain that > sort of recognition, but perhaps a category, like old > elec- tronic gear, could one day possibly. I assume you're talking about "computers". I have no doubt that we'll see this before too long. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 15:59:19 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455CBA02.5030108@yahoo.com> References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5v048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455CBA02.5030108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44FE5DF0-EDCD-4719-9F5C-A2F6560C877D@neurotica.com> On Nov 16, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Al Hartman wrote: > I just won an LNW-80 Computer on eBay. I've been trying to win one > for YEARS!!! > > I probably paid more than I could afford for it. But, I'd had > enough at losing auctions. > > It's not the Model II I wanted, but a Model I (as far as I can tell). Wow, very cool...those LNW machines sure sounded neat; I've never had the pleasure of actually sitting in front of one. Be sure to take some pics when it arrives! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 16:02:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:02:19 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061116213634.14125.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455ACE2A.4010509@gjcp.net>, <20061116213634.14125.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455C6F6B.28681.A80725F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 13:36, Chris M wrote: > Can't always snip the pins. Generally speaking, > desoldering a chip isn't necessarily catastrophic, but > what if it's old and irreplaceable? ...then one would assume that your goal was to salvage the chip rather than the board. In that case, I'd simply cut the board around the chip then desolder the chip from the board remnants. Priorities, priorities. Either you want to save the chip or the board. But if you're replacing a chip, who cares what happens to the old one? In severe cases, I've taken a dremel to the chip leads and simply cut the IC body away for easy access. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 16:09:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:09:24 -0800 Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) In-Reply-To: <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455C9D06.5050004@iais.fraunhofer.de>, <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455C7114.6917.A86EB71@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 13:44, Chris M wrote: > Or desolder it from a CGA card or any other IBM > compatible with built in video. I recommend a cool > water wave tank for the process. You know, when desoldering a chip such as a 40-pin DIP like the 6545, I've never gotten the chip body anywhere near being too hot to touch. As a matter of fact, I'd worry that the water would conduct too much heat away from the chip to allow the PCB solder to melt quickly. > Are they absolute drop in replacements for one another? My copy of the 6545 chip datasheet states that it's pin-compatible with the 6845. At first blush, the chip programming looks to be identical, but there might be some electrical parameters that are sensitive to chip choice. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 16 16:09:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:09:25 -0700 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:52:01 -0500. <3F65C7EE-1334-4A6F-A076-6DA95B106A5D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <3F65C7EE-1334-4A6F-A076-6DA95B106A5D at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > > Perhaps I'm just underestimating the 'I simply have to have that!' > > factor which seems to play a part in a lot of transactions, though :-) > > Quite possibly. That happened to me when I bought my H-8. Boy > was I eating ramens for a while after that. I'm willing to bet, > though, there's a bona-fide personal affinity at work in a lot of > those situations...not just "auction fever". That's definately at work in the Heathkit category. There are also certain things that get priced all crazy because of the level of interest (and not just auction fever). Things like the CompuColor terminal, the ASR-33 teletype (there's one in good shape going for $500+ right now on ebay), the Tektronix 40x0 storage scope terminals and the ADM-3A terminal are all bid up beyond what any other kind of serial terminal could command. Now the CompuColor and the Tektronix have some interesting capabilities, but the ADM-3A is really quite plain from a functional viewpoint. Its just that it was *the* period CRT for 70s micros and showed up in all the advertising and whatnot so there is quite a bit of interest in it. Its not just the case styling because the ADM-5 has the same case styling and it doesn't generate as much interest as the ADM-3A. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 16:20:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:20:54 -0800 Subject: OT: More ePay madness Message-ID: <455C73C6.6602.A91733C@cclist.sydex.com> Maybe $300 for a Compaticard isn't so silly. Just search on eBay for "PS3". Yikes! And even more surprising because in a year, we'll be flooded with the things. Reminds me of Beanie Babies. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 16:26:27 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Overclocking not just PC/ATs was Re: PC/AT overclocking In-Reply-To: <200611141454.kAEEsvkM155068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20061116222627.29736.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I overclocked a ZX Spectrum by replacing the 14MHz > crystal with a > > 17.73MHz one. Of course everything is derived > from this, including > > video timings, so I needed to tweak my monitor up > proportionately, and were both horizontal and vertical scanning rates affected? Presumably so if the dot clock itself got bumped up. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 16 16:34:26 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:34:26 -0600 Subject: 11/34 done Message-ID: <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Picture is at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/1134.jpg 11/34A, 128kw, RL01, RL02, DSD440. I still need to clean the side panels up, but it's assembled and up and running RT11 :) Back to that /44 I guess... just have to get working drives on it. Then hopefully back to the /45. Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 16:34:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:34:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C6F6B.28681.A80725F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116223443.5124.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2006 at 13:36, Chris M wrote: > > > Can't always snip the pins. Generally speaking, > > desoldering a chip isn't necessarily catastrophic, > but > > what if it's old and irreplaceable? > > ...then one would assume that your goal was to > salvage the chip , and soldered it to the pin judiciously. No problemo. > rather than the board. In that case, I'd simply cut > the board around > the chip then desolder the chip from the board > remnants. > Priorities, priorities. Either you want to save the > chip or the > board. Possibly both. What if both were important? And I have freed a trace or two from a circuit board due to overheating, and soldered it to the pin judiciously. No problemo. I remember a guy who desoldered EVERY chip from his C64 (?), soldered in sockets, then pressed the chips back in. Granted though this was at an electronic facility, with all the proper gear. > But if you're replacing a chip, who cares what > happens to the old > one? In severe cases, I've taken a dremel to the > chip leads and > simply cut the IC body away for easy access. The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel LOL LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Nov 16 16:35:16 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:35:16 -0800 Subject: VAX/VMS archiving and replacement In-Reply-To: <455CD9FE.1090204@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <200610192205.k9JM5txr008605@onyx.spiritone.com> <455CD9FE.1090204@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <20061116223516.GA5844@motherbrain.retronet.net> Hi Joe, On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 04:37:02PM -0500, joe heck wrote: > Now for part two. If I really want to get rid of my MicroVax 3100 and > run a simulator, can I really have a stable system with something like SIMH? With caveats. First, simh is undergoing some overhaul right now while Bob Supnik adds idle loop detection to the code. This will eventually result in SIMH being *much* less resource intensive, and from what I've read he intends to have it in the next release of the software, sometime soon-ish. But as it is right now, today, running SIMH eats up 100% of your CPU while it's running. Second, SIMH simulates a MicroVAX 3900 with an RQDX3 controller, not a SCSI controller, so I'm not sure that just imaging your drives will work. It might! But it may also confuse things if your drive images end up being larger than RA92 drives. I've never tried it. > The needs are modest: All of my printers and terminals are off > Decnet/LAT, and I can put the two modems over there as well and take > them off the serial ports. I can probably also figure out a way to make > backups, probably by backing up the system disk image on the PC. I > think I would use XP. In reading the SIMH documents it seems like a > second ethernet card is necesary, but that seems reasonable. However, > can I run something older like VMS 5.5-2? You can run anything supported by the MicroVAX 3900. I used to run VMS 5.5-2 on mine all the time, so I suspect it would work just fine! -Seth From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Nov 16 16:40:41 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:40:41 -0800 Subject: VAX/VMS archiving and replacement In-Reply-To: <455CD9FE.1090204@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <200610192205.k9JM5txr008605@onyx.spiritone.com> <455CD9FE.1090204@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <20061116224041.GB5844@motherbrain.retronet.net> Actually, strike what I said about the RA92 being the largest supported disk. Apparently SIMH supports an RAUSER disk that you can enable with: SET RQ0 RAUSER=2500 ; RA82 with 2500 MB or you can set block size SET -L RQ0 RAUSER=5000 ; RA82 with 5000 LBNs. So just set your RAUSER drives to the same # of blocks as your MicroVAX 3100 drives, and I bet you can just make images of them and they'll work. -Seth From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 16 16:47:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:47:48 -0700 Subject: 11/34 done In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:34:26 -0600. <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Picture is at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/1134.jpg > > 11/34A, 128kw, RL01, RL02, DSD440. Sounds like a nice system for a little data interchange 11/34 style :-) > I still need to clean the side panels up, but it's assembled and up and > running RT11 :) Heh heh... looks like someone had an Apple sticker on the top panel? > Back to that /44 I guess... just have to get working drives on it. Then > hopefully back to the /45. Somehow I don't feel sorry for you and your "problems"! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 16 16:52:33 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:52:33 -0000 Subject: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <455C73C6.6602.A91733C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002e01c709d1$e969ac20$0504010a@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe $300 for a Compaticard isn't so silly. Just search on eBay for > "PS3". Yikes! And even more surprising because in a year, we'll be > flooded with the things. A few days ago I saw a Buy-It-Now auction for an Atari 2600 "Atlantis II" cartridge that was up at $1,500,000. I cannot find it right now but I'm sure I wasn't imagining it. I presume it didn't sell, but it certainly beats all the PS3 auctions I've seen into a cocked hat :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 16 16:55:16 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:55:16 -0000 Subject: 11/34 done In-Reply-To: <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <002f01c709d2$49bd66c0$0504010a@uatempname> Jay West wrote: > Picture is at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/1134.jpg > > 11/34A, 128kw, RL01, RL02, DSD440. Very nice. I'm not sure if I'm most envious of the machine of that fact that you have all that room :-) Is that "Apple" logo on the d|i|g|i|t|a|l panel deliberate dusting or what? Antonio From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 17:02:44 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:02:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: OFFLIST ---------- Re: Amigas don't turn on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061116230244.3813.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> dude, I was only kidding around. And I don't think my reply was snarky at all, but the reply of a person undergoing a load of hurt LOL LOL. I can't believe you took any of that post seriously though. Are we still buddies? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 17:04:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:04:43 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061116223443.5124.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455C6F6B.28681.A80725F@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061116223443.5124.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 14:34, Chris M wrote: > Possibly both. What if both were important? Then you wouldn't be trying to separate them, would you? :) Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 16 17:05:36 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:05:36 -0000 Subject: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <002e01c709d1$e969ac20$0504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <003001c709d3$bafd9980$0504010a@uatempname> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Maybe $300 for a Compaticard isn't so silly. Just search on eBay for >> "PS3". Yikes! And even more surprising because in a year, we'll be >> flooded with the things. > > A few days ago I saw a Buy-It-Now auction for an Atari 2600 > "Atlantis II" cartridge that was up at $1,500,000. I cannot > find it right now but I'm sure I wasn't imagining it. > > I presume it didn't sell, but it certainly beats all > the PS3 auctions I've seen into a cocked hat :-) I seem to have that price wrong: auction 250047656706 and it was US $1,750,000.00 (and it didn't sell :-)) Antonio From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 17:14:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:14:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116231443.22912.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2006 at 14:34, Chris M wrote: > > > Possibly both. What if both were important? > > Then you wouldn't be trying to separate them, would > you? :) Not necessarily. What if you had 2 funky boards, and wanted to swap parts between the 2. Aha, gotcha don't I? ;p ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/ mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt - http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 16 17:17:05 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:17:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455C4933.26898.9EB2779@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455ACE22.14183.4226EF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <455C1D4C.3135.93FA41E@cclist.sydex.com>, <455C8F98.8040001@gmail.com> <455C4933.26898.9EB2779@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116151155.N30653@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This reminds me of a (fictional) story... (fictional)??? My father used to tell me virtually the exact same story about my great-great-great grandfather in the old country. (I don't know WHAT country, just that it was old) But, in THAT story, it was a statue. BTW, [to Eric Smith]: That is why my oldest TRS80 that you got from me had a Dymo label identifying it as "THE STATUE". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > A small New England town resolved to remedy a social problem. There > was a (what's PC for "Village Idiot"?) person who was always at loose > ends getting into trouble and generally being a nuisance. So someone > hit on the idea of employing him. > > So our hero, call him Joe, was offered the task of polishing the > Civil War cannon in the courthouse square every day in exchange for > the princely sum of fifty cents. > > Joe discharged his duty admirably for a dozen years. Rain or shine, > snow or drought, you'd see him carefully polishing the old artillery > piece every single day. > > One day, however, Joe failed to show; then, no Joe the next day. The > good townspeople, fearing that Joe had fallen ill or worse, sent a > group of citizens to look for him. > > They found Joe in his little shack, well and in good spirits. When > asked why he'd stopped showing up to his job, Joe responded, "Oh, I > don't need to any more--I've saved up my money and bought my own > cannon..." > > Cheers, > Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 17:18:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:18:01 -0800 Subject: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <002e01c709d1$e969ac20$0504010a@uatempname> References: <455C73C6.6602.A91733C@cclist.sydex.com>, <002e01c709d1$e969ac20$0504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <455C8129.18206.AC5BF1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 22:52, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > A few days ago I saw a Buy-It-Now auction for an Atari 2600 > "Atlantis II" cartridge that was up at $1,500,000. I cannot > find it right now but I'm sure I wasn't imagining it. Maybe it was the same seller as the auction for completed item 250044255569. $510 not making reserve, but to be fair, the guy included some ephemera with it. It's a good example of something appealing to a certain generation. This would have little or no value to someone older than 60. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 17:26:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:26:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <003001c709d3$bafd9980$0504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <20061116232658.17765.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Read it all through folks. It's too rich to pass up. Q: Hallo, my name is Werner and I am interested in this game. Sorry my english is not so well. I read everything and I understand, that you only sell it to someone, if he picks it at at your home in USA? Is it also possible to send it via mail to me to germay? Next problem: I would have to pay duty/taxes on it. Could we agree, that you add a paper to it, that I bought it for a price like for example 100 Dollar? If not I would have to pay some additional hundreds of Euro. Please answer in simple words : - ) Werner Nov-14-06 A: You need to pick it up and no I won't send it through the mail it's too Rare and would get lost! Sorry, but you need to come here to get it. Q: I understand that you think this is worth that much but honestly you will never get that much money. You are asking way too much. For that much money you could have a game made up for you. This would sell for around $10,000 you need to rethink your price and remember just because there is a limited quantity doesn't mean that the value is higher. I could make a one of a kind drawing of my tv but that doesn't make it worth anything. So what make you think you will get this much? Nov-13-06 A: Come on 10 in the world. Moreover, it made the top ten lists of the rarest video games for any system made. I know I probably won't get this much at this time but the value has just gone way up from the 500.00 when it sold on ebay 3 years ago for the first time now it sold for more than 3000.00 last time, next time because of my auction what do you think it will sell for? This only gets listed haw many times a year? None! Every 2 years maybe someone who has it sells it but what will happen when all ten are found and those collectors won't part with them what will be the price then? Do you think they will sell them for a lousy 10K I think not? The next time this gets listed by someone because of this auction and the awareness of this auction it will sell for an astonishing amount. besides I was offered 50K for the item, think thats good? I don't. The guy offered to put 50K in my paypal account before I even end the auction. imagine that. Q: Would you accept a very long honey nut cheerio in trade? Nov-13-06 A: Remember that ebay is now monitoring my messages. can you say violation? Q: is this ps2 compatable? Nov-12-06 A: HUH? Reminds me of something the people on digg.com might say. They are funny people like you. Too bad nobody knows the value of something. O-well! Sorry won't be answering any more questions on the item at all! Q: I have a cool 1.5M in cash sitting here with your name on it. Deal? Nov-12-06 A: No Deal! Q: Wow. Nice game, but how are the graphix? Nov-12-06 A: at least as good as the original Atlantis Q: Hey, i'm pretty interested in this item, i was just wondering, can i pay in cash? i dont trust online banking...! Nov-12-06 A: You would need to make a deposit of at least 250,000 in paypal. the rest will need to be certified check! Q: Obviously this is legit as people can see that you were the submitter 3 years ago here: http://www.stageselect.com/games/game.aspx?gameid=3262&fromint=1 Nov-12-06 A: Yeah! This is true! You know it! I love that site too! Too bad I forgot my pass to it! It used to be called fatman games! and wanted to change the errors in the site but was unable too. I also wanted to note that somebody has offered me a cool 50K here in the us for the stuff but I won't let it go for that too much history behind it! The Value of the game went way up since I was offered that 5500 back then! Q: Hey! Would you be willing to go as low as $1,700,000? Thanks! Nov-12-06 A: NO! The Price is set and firm! Sorry Dude no compromises! I had an offer as low as 5000.00 and as high as yours no I won't sell it unless my price is met! Q: Hi, i find it curious that you state that the item is stored in a security deposit box, for safe keeping I assume, but the photo looks like you've dropped it on your kitchen floor. for something that you consider that valuable, i think you could have taken better care of the item and provided better quality images. Nov-12-06 A: Item was placed on a brand new floor and yes it was removed for the purpose of taking the pictures! It's now back where it belongs and very well should be! Placing an item on the floor does not destroy it as you may think! Besides it's from 1982 and not in perfect condition anyway, My floors are so clean, I can eat off my floor can you say the same? Q: I was also one of the ten finalists. Sadly, Imagic did not notify me to expect the package and it was delivered to a neighbor, who gave it to me a week late. Even worse, I lost or sold my copies over twenty years ago. At the time I was living in Carlisle PA. I wonder where in PA you are? Nov-12-06 A: It can't be true! UPS delivered it blue label directly to your home. In-fact they made sure you got it by a follow up phone call! In fact all ten finalist received this phone call... Just to make sure you got it! So what are you saying? You were one of the ten finalists but never received it until a week later and Imagic never called you? I'm not going to be taken in by that story! Sorry! Q: are you serious??? I have $10 for it. Nov-12-06 A: I am going to post this one because it's just so stupid! Q: If indeed as you say - you can't tell the diffrence between an original and a fake -, and the original documents can only be authenticated by sight, do you reimburse for airfare if the prospective buyer is less than satisfied that it is the original article? I didn't get my millions by running to all corners of the globe for a fruitless search. -D. Nov-11-06 A: It's real! I was in the contest this was not picked up somewhere else! and yes I will give you 100% all money back including any air fair and expenses if it's not the real thing! You can bet on it! Q: Is it possible to come play the game BEFORE purchase is made? Nov-11-06 A: If you?re serious sure! But since you want the game a retainer of 250,000 will be needed! Once you agree it's the real deal I expect the rest of the payment for the item! After the rest of the payment is made then you can take the item away! This will be fair to both of us! Q: Hi. How about close-up pictures of the documents that are already posted on Atariage...I need to see exactly what I'm thinking of buying. Thanks again! Nov-11-06 A: Yep they are there and yes mine are orignal but i am not going to take new pics and not all docs are posted on atariage Q: Oh, one more question, what about the box? Nov-10-06 A: Yeah! What about it! It was nothing more than an Atlantis (ONE) Cartridge box with a sticker on the cellophane that said Atlantis II if you want a box make one yourself! I probably have the original box but I know I riped off the celephane to the box so the little generic Atlantis II Mailing label to the box is gone! Q: Hi. Could you perhaps post some Macro/close-up pictures of the game and all the paperwork?? Thanks! Nov-10-06 A: nope! That won't happen since I have documents that are not posted anywhere on the net! even in the last Atlantis II auctions they were not posted! So the buyer is in for a treat! Q: Sorry, one more question...could you post a picture of the game in a system being played...or perhaps a video! Thanks again:) Nov-10-06 A: The buyer of this item is welcome to come and play a game at my home! once we pick up the item from the bank. so there is no need to do what your asking. Q: Hello very cool collectable, however...last week the identical game was being auctioned and it also included the docs as well. I am very certain that it was also a real Atlantis II, The first auction went under 3K and the next time for under a 1K. So with this other Atlantis II available for Approx. 3K, why would you think someone would pay your price? Is this auction more for bragging rights? Just curious Nov-10-06 A: That?s a simple question! Here is your answer one they did not sell they had ungodly reserves on them! Second nobody knew that only 10 real Atlantis II Carts existed until now! This is 1/10 made if people want to accept less than what something is worth then that's their preference! Not mine! If you can get a real one so cheap I would buy it! Q: Hi kingmeanguns,I hope you get your asking price, but if not would you consider reposting the item with a reserve price so we could see the bidding action?(I guess the listing would be expensive,but it would be exciting!)good luck :-) Nov-09-06 A: It cost money to put a reserve price on the auction! In fact the higher the reserve the more money it costs just to list the item! I'm not in the business of loosing money. Sorry it?s my price and that?s what I will accept for this gem! Q: I know that this is a rare item, but why do you have it priced so outrageously high? Nov-09-06 A: It's my price! 1/10 in the world? I know of items in auctions that I thought were complete garbage that went for over a million. this in my opinion has a lot more value than all those auction items! If you had one of the worlds greatest treasures would you settle for less? I think not! Q: Hi, I'm federico, from Italy. My site is www.gamescollection.it Really compliments for your Atlantis II and your GREAT acution. I've a question: I would make a Special Article on my website about your cart. Could you send me 2 o 3 good pics about the materials? It will be a great pleasure for me speack about your story. Many thanks Federico Nov-09-06 A: No I can't thats when Original Atlantis II carts and docs start poping up everywhere! Again there are only 10 made worldwide! Thats it! 10 Q: I was wondering what you would sell your Cart for? Thank you, Richard Lecce Nov-09-06 A: I wont split it up without the docs the cart is valueless to me as a company in europe makes reproduction carts from original atlantis 1 cases and yes they use mask roms in the case so you can't tell the diffrence between an original and a fake! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 16 17:37:37 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:37:37 -0800 Subject: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <003001c709d3$bafd9980$0504010a@uatempname> References: <003001c709d3$bafd9980$0504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <455CF641.6010006@msm.umr.edu> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > >>-It-Now auction for an Atari 2600 >>"Atlantis II" cartridge that was up at $1,500,000. >> >I seem to have that price wrong: auction 250047656706 >and it was US $1,750,000.00 (and it didn't sell :-)) > > I looked up Atlantis-ii on a site refered to in the question feedback for the auction. It is rated extremely rare. I guess if you truely like the graphics for the Atari 2600, and have a spare 1 and 3/4 mil to pay, it probably will get you a rare item. I personally would spend it on a house on the bay out here in LA or such, and spend the extra $$ to get a PS-III, though I have no plans to get one now. The lines outside Fry's have been around since Tuesday according to some guys I talked to there today, I guess they go on sale tomorrow. I'd just like one of the Cell processors, forget the game, to play with, and a linux distro to run on it. Sorry for way way off topic. This auction is more legit than most, but this guy is way too full of it over the value of such a game in my opinion. Shows how values can fluctuate when someone absolutely has to have something, and someone else has a high price. jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 17:26:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:26:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <455CBA02.5030108@yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Nov 16, 6 02:20:34 pm Message-ID: > - A Trash Compactor Board (A TRS-80 Model III Clone that fits in a Model > I case) Some 20 years ago I got Model 3 BASIC burnt into an EPROM. I then hacked a Model 1 CPU board to support the extra ROM space (14K .vs. 12K), and have 48K RAM (using 4164s which were easy to find at the time, hacked the address decoder and pinout (slightly). Yes, it worked. I was then going to wire-wrap boards to add the disk controller, real time clock interrupt, 1500 baud cassette port, RS232 port, etc. Essentially make a Model 3 What stopped this project was that at the next radio rally (hamfest) I bought a Model 3... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 17:35:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:35:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 16, 6 01:28:28 pm Message-ID: > > can anyone foresee old puters going on the block at > posh auction houses like Christie's or Southebie's? It > happened with comic books maybe 15 years ago. There > are a few dozen of those that are worth mega bucks > though. With puters, I'd have to say (at least at this > present time), it's merely a handful. I personally > don't think puters by themselves will ever gain that > sort of recognition, but perhaps a category, like old > elec- tronic gear, could one day possibly. I beleive at least one of those auction houses has a category something like 'Scientific and optical instruments'. Cameras most certainly come under that (old camears are another interest of mine), and from what I've read some of the cameras there are nothing particularly special (that is,they're standard mdoels, no partcicuarly significant provenance), they are the sort of thing I'd buy from a second-hand camera shop or on E-bay, and attract the same sort of prices. I can easily see old computers being sold by such aution houses in a few (10's of?) years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 17:19:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:19:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 16, 6 10:03:23 am Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > That seems to support my feeling that the price is driven more by > > > desirability of collectors than rarity. On the other hand that means > > > > Isn't that rather stating the obvious, in that collectors will pay more > > for items that they really want? > > Maybe it seems that way, but the original poster was speculating that > rarity was the price driver. My point (which I didn't explain that well) is that 'desirability to collectors' is almost certainly the main factor in the price. I think that 'rarity' may well be a factor in 'desirability to collectors' (some collectors will want to have a machine that nobody else owns), but may not be the main factor. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 17:45:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:45:11 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061116231443.22912.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061116231443.22912.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 15:14, Chris M wrote: > Not necessarily. What if you had 2 funky boards, and > wanted to swap parts between the 2. Aha, gotcha don't > I? ;p ...then I'd say that your powers of diagnosis requied some honing. :) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 17:52:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:52:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061116235246.29223.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > I can easily see old computers being sold by such > aution houses in a few > (10's of?) years. No one ever foresees items escalating in price the way they do, but I can't imagine that many units go for astronomical prices. Most were made in such large quantities. And old computers are not subject to widespread appeal as fine art, baseball cards, or comic books. Still, a few will continue to go up presumably. The creapy thing is though...you buy a painting or whatever at auction, and barring any catastrophes, or theft, you get to enjoy it forever. But when yer mobo blows...that could be all she wrote :o. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 17:52:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:52:50 -0800 Subject: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <455CF641.6010006@msm.umr.edu> References: <003001c709d3$bafd9980$0504010a@uatempname>, <455CF641.6010006@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <455C8952.21282.AE59EF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 15:37, jim stephens wrote: > Shows how values can fluctuate when someone absolutely has > to have something, and someone else has a high price. And, from what the seller said, copies of the game are floating around already. So what determines the value? It obviously isn't the bits--they don't come in "new" and "well aged" flavors like a bottle of wine. 20 year old bits are just as good as new ones. So what we have here is the provenance for sale, not really the work itself, no? And the value of that, like Beanie Babies, can be extremely subjective. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 17:58:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116235816.33801.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2006 at 15:14, Chris M wrote: > > > Not necessarily. What if you had 2 funky boards, > and > > wanted to swap parts between the 2. Aha, gotcha > don't > > I? ;p > > ...then I'd say that your powers of diagnosis > requied some honing. :) Probably. But I would have to say the vast majority of us have resorted to swapping components. You can make educated guesses, but in the absence of test equipment, what other "methodology" is possible? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. Www.nextag.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 18:03:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:03:00 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B2AE871-8E5A-4ACC-910D-90A9C85E1789@neurotica.com> On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Perhaps I'm just underestimating the 'I simply have to have that!' >>> factor which seems to play a part in a lot of transactions, >>> though :-) >> >> Quite possibly. That happened to me when I bought my H-8. Boy >> was I eating ramens for a while after that. I'm willing to bet, >> though, there's a bona-fide personal affinity at work in a lot of >> those situations...not just "auction fever". > > That's definately at work in the Heathkit category. There are also > certain things that get priced all crazy because of the level of > interest (and not just auction fever). Things like the CompuColor > terminal, the ASR-33 teletype (there's one in good shape going for > $500+ right now on ebay), If I had it (I'm broke right now) I'd pay that in a heartbeat for a working ASR-33. Where I live, they're scarce as hens' teeth. A friend up in NY has offered me one for free, but I can't seem to scrape up enough time and money to go get it. > the Tektronix 40x0 storage scope terminals > and the ADM-3A terminal are all bid up beyond what any other kind of > serial terminal could command. Now the CompuColor and the Tektronix > have some interesting capabilities, but the ADM-3A is really quite > plain from a functional viewpoint. Its just that it was *the* period > CRT for 70s micros and showed up in all the advertising and whatnot so > there is quite a bit of interest in it. Its not just the case styling > because the ADM-5 has the same case styling and it doesn't generate as > much interest as the ADM-3A. Now that's an interesting point. (I didn't even know there *was* an ADM-5 until maybe ten years ago, but everyone has heard of the ADM-3A from "back in the day") This suggests that the commonality or rarity of a particular piece of hardware can have TWO effects on its value: Rarity may push its value up (due to, well, rarity), while that same rarity can push its value down because people generally don't seem to get too excited about things they have no idea even exist. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 18:04:04 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:04:04 -0500 Subject: 11/34 done In-Reply-To: <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Jay West wrote: > Picture is at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/1134.jpg > > 11/34A, 128kw, RL01, RL02, DSD440. > > I still need to clean the side panels up, but it's assembled and up > and running RT11 :) Beautiful! Great work! > Back to that /44 I guess... just have to get working drives on it. > Then hopefully back to the /45. Grrrr. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 16 18:12:29 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:12:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: PS3 (was Re: More ePay madness) Message-ID: <200611170012.kAH0CTpN088999@keith.ezwind.net> --- jim stephens wrote: > > I personally would spend it on a house on the bay > out here in LA > or such, and spend the extra $$ to get a PS-III, > though I have no > plans to get one now. > > The lines outside Fry's have been around since > Tuesday according to > some guys I talked to there today, I guess they go > on sale tomorrow. > > I'd just like one of the Cell processors, forget t he > game, to play with, > and a linux distro to run on it. > >> snip << > > jim > LOL. Bwahahahahaha! You'd be *very* lucky to get one. Only 84,000 units were sold in Japan on Saturday (100,000 were originally promised) and now recent comments from industry analysts suggest that only 100,000 to 150,000 units will be available at launch (originally Sony promised 400,000). Sony's original target was to ship 2 million by the end of December and 6 million by the end of March. They are looking like they will miss both targets at present. As for The Cell, I believe only 7 of the 8 cores will be fully functional on most machines, unless Sony fixed the reliability issue. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 16 18:18:31 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:18:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061116231443.22912.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116161626.Q30653@shell.lmi.net> > > Not necessarily. What if you had 2 funky boards, and > > wanted to swap parts between the 2. Aha, gotcha don't > > I? ;p On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...then I'd say that your powers of diagnosis requied some honing. :) Howzbout: wanting to insert a sandwich board in between the PCB and the chip. Such as a Percom Data Separator with a soldered in WD1771, or a Percom doubler From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 18:24:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:24:18 -0800 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: References: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 16, 6 01:28:28 pm, Message-ID: <455C90B2.15197.B026D68@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 23:35, Tony Duell wrote: > I can easily see old computers being sold by such aution houses in a few > (10's of?) years. Unfortunately, that's the problem for some of us geezers. We don't have "a few 10s of years" left on the warranty. A fellow I know of was a collector of model airplane engines (not the planes themselves, but just the engines). He'd spent a fair part of 20 years going to swap meets and dealing to get what he thought was a near-encyclopedic collection. Then he suddenly dropped dead from a cardiac episode. His "buddies" descended on his poor widow and cherry-picked his collection, paying the unknowledgeable spouse nickels or pennies on the dollar as regarded more-or-less established values. She didn't know a thing about airplane engines. The reverse can be true. After a tuba-playing friend of mine died, his widow asked me to help sell his instrument. I declined, even though a commission was offered. Why? Because when he purchased it, he told her a whopper--that his horn was worth $15,000 and he'd paid only $3500 for it. The instrument in question is neither out of current product nor is it considered to be rare. A fair market value for an excellent specimen might be $2500-2750. No way was I going to be the one to give her the bad news! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 18:30:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:30:45 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061116235816.33801.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061116235816.33801.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455C9235.15753.B085454@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 15:58, Chris M wrote: > Probably. But I would have to say the vast majority > of us have resorted to swapping components. You can > make educated guesses, but in the absence of test > equipment, what other "methodology" is possible? Just so--what's to prevent you from aquiring a used 'scope and learning how to use it? I'm still using an old Tek 465 that I've had for a long time that does most of what I need in a piece of test equipment. I've also got a logic analyzer, but it rarely sees the light of day. There is a certain level of tooling required for most fields. I suppose you could work on your car with nothing more than a pair of gas pliers and a hammer, but doing things right requires the right tools. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 18:32:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:32:33 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061116161626.Q30653@shell.lmi.net> References: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com>, <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061116161626.Q30653@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <455C92A1.8040.B09FC89@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 16:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > Howzbout: wanting to insert a sandwich board in between the PCB and the > chip. Such as a Percom Data Separator with a soldered in WD1771, > or a Percom doubler I think it's a matter of priorities again, Fred. If the board was the more valuable, I'd scour the face of the earth for another 1771 and destroy the one on the board, rather than destroy the board. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 16 18:41:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:41:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C9235.15753.B085454@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455C8787.24114.ADE9D4D@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061116235816.33801.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <455C9235.15753.B085454@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061116163806.C30653@shell.lmi.net> OK, one more situation where you need to remove a chip, and do not want to destroy either the chip nor the PCB: Had an IBM MDP board that had intermittent screen data corruption when scrolling. On close examination, found that it had originally been assembled with one pin of one chip bent under, instead of through the board and soldered. Desoldering the chip, and resoldering it with ALL of the pins properly connected fixed it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 18:44:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:44:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C9235.15753.B085454@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061117004418.74067.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just so--what's to prevent you from aquiring a used > 'scope and > learning how to use it? I'm still using an old Tek > 465 that I've had > for a long time that does most of what I need in a > piece of test > equipment. I've also got a logic analyzer, but it > rarely sees the > light of day. > > There is a certain level of tooling required for > most fields. I > suppose you could work on your car with nothing more > than a pair of > gas pliers and a hammer, but doing things right > requires the right > tools. Absolutely nothing. Except finding the time and desire. And I wouldn't need to learn how to use it, though a brushing up would be in order. Still, my instincts would be to try a li'l chip swapping rather then get all hot-and-bothered by a thorough diagnosis. Besides, as the gnattering off-list respondent has said, I'm not really all that bright, so a proper piece of test equipment probably wouldn't do a whole lot of good :< I want one of those color HP DSOs I used for a bit in the late 80's. They were $30Gs back then I think. Anyone have a clue as to the model #? Yet I can only wonder what *could* be used to scope out problems on the uP systems of today. You need at the very least 2x the sampling rate to effectively analyze a waveform. I cannot image what an 8ghz scope would go for. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 19:06:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:06:58 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <20061117004418.74067.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455C9235.15753.B085454@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061117004418.74067.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455C9AB2.798.B297B06@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2006 at 16:44, Chris M wrote: > Yet I can only wonder what *could* be used to scope > out problems on the uP systems of today. You need at > the very least 2x the sampling rate to effectively > analyze a waveform. I cannot image what an 8ghz scope > would go for. An even better question might be "where is the tradeoff between simply tossing a non-functional modern uP board and replacing it and actually trying to repair one?" Heaven knows, there's probably a whole landfill full of 90's PeeCee mobos that died from the Chinese Capacitor Disease. One might even know that a given board died of said ailment. Where's the gain in repairing one? On the other hand, if this is a piece of specialized equipment that simply uses a uP, that's a different matter. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 16 19:05:36 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:05:36 -0600 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems References: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01c709e4$c2b6c5a0$27406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Practical question on valuation of old systems > can anyone foresee old puters going on the block at > posh auction houses like Christie's or Southebie's? It > happened with comic books maybe 15 years ago. There > are a few dozen of those that are worth mega bucks > though. With puters, I'd have to say (at least at this > present time), it's merely a handful. I personally > don't think puters by themselves will ever gain that > sort of recognition, but perhaps a category, like old > elec- tronic gear, could one day possibly. > CHRISTIE'S just had the "The Origins of Cyberspace" auction back on 23 February 2005. It had over 60 years of stuff that had been collected by one person. The catalog had 250+ pages in it and is a geat read. The business plan for CDC sold for over $47,000 and a tin tape holder from UNIVAC went for $2300+. Check out thier website or get one of the catalogs on ebay. John From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 16 19:07:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:07:38 -0600 Subject: 11/34 done References: Message-ID: <00b001c709e4$c6702420$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > Sounds like a nice system for a little data interchange 11/34 style :-) Yup, that combo of peripherals was carefully chosen to help support other machines in the collection, and the /34 was the least powerhungry, etc. > Heh heh... looks like someone had an Apple sticker on the top panel? Ask Tom U. about it ;) He donated the top panel. Actually, it was for my /45's 2nd bay. But then later I found a header panel without the digital logo, which was more appropriate for the 2nd bay I thought. So this one migrated to the /34. The apple sticker had been removed before I got the panel. It appears to be sun fading, I don't think it will come out. It adds character ;) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 16 19:08:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:08:46 -0600 Subject: 11/34 done References: <002f01c709d2$49bd66c0$0504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <00b901c709e4$f04ab5d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Antonio wrote... > Very nice. I'm not sure if I'm most envious of the > machine of that fact that you have all that room :-) I had to move a bunch of things so that I could wrangle the /34 cpu onto the rails. Plus the photo is very carefully framed. I have NO room ;) Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 19:15:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:15:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C9AB2.798.B297B06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061117011506.57207.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the other hand, if this is a piece of specialized > equipment that > simply uses a uP, that's a different matter. Right. The essence of the question was has the technology to diagnose kept up with the speeds these things are capable of. I would have to imagine yes, but the cost for a piece of "capable" test equipment for today's electronics has to cost a whole lot more then it did back when. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 17:47:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:47:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 16, 6 03:04:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 16 Nov 2006 at 14:34, Chris M wrote: > > > Possibly both. What if both were important? > > Then you wouldn't be trying to separate them, would you? :) You might, if you needed to remove the chip for testing (either to test the chip, or to be able to force signals that it drove on the board so as to test other bits of the machine). Or if you wanted to read out the program from said chip (maybe it's a PAL or a microcontroller, or something). Yes, you can separate ICs and PCBs without damaging either. I do it all the time. My original comment was that in the case of removing 64K DRAMs (very common chips) from a PC/ST motherboard, it was worth sacrificing the chip if you weren't sure of your abilities to remvoe it in one piece without damaging the board. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 16 14:53:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:53:07 -0600 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455CCFB3.5000809@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > can anyone foresee old puters going on the block at > posh auction houses like Christie's or Southebie's? It > happened with comic books maybe 15 years ago. Isn't part of what drives auctions the fact that the items sold could conceivably be used in the manner which the original designer / manufacturer intended, though? e.g. that old Ford model A could be restored to working condition and driven, that comic book could be read etc. Collectors (in the auction category) don't generally "use" what they buy, of course - but it seems to me that part of the attraction is that they could if they wanted. At the moment, I'd say that most computers really aren't seen (outside a select few which are - rightly or wrongly - seen as having a pioneering place in computer history) as rare enough to attract auction houses. Maybe in 50 years, but in 50 years the parts that make them functional (and therefore "complete") will probably no longer be maintainable... cheers Jules From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 16 20:01:24 2006 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:01:24 -0500 Subject: Ventel 2400 plus II comand set Message-ID: <200611162101.25313.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Does any one have documentation on this modem? Particularly the the command set. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 22:02:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:02:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd tandy 6000. sanyo mbc-xxx, tektronix tc-2000 Message-ID: <20061117040218.80104.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> some trades possible. Also want Zenith Z-100 and related stuph ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $420k for $1,399/mo. Think You Pay Too Much For Your Mortgage? Find Out! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 22:09:58 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:09:58 -0600 Subject: VAX/VMS archiving and replacement In-Reply-To: <20061116223516.GA5844@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <200610192205.k9JM5txr008605@onyx.spiritone.com> <455CD9FE.1090204@splab.cas.neu.edu> <20061116223516.GA5844@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <9e2403920611162009lfd04013wae3cffa80e9f2273@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/06, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Second, SIMH simulates a MicroVAX 3900 with an RQDX3 controller, not a > SCSI controller, so I'm not sure that just imaging your drives will > work. It might! But it may also confuse things if your drive images > end up being larger than RA92 drives. I've never tried it. Speaking from experience, moving a disk image from SIMH with an RQDX3 controller, to a VAXStation 3100 M38 with a SCSI controller onto a real disk (via a DECStation 5000 and NetBSD) works like a charm. I'd installed OpenVMS 7.2 onto SIMH, used dd on the DECStation to copy the disk image byte-for-byte onto a real SCSI HDD, and booted the VAXStation into OpenVMS from there. Even Mr. Supnik seemed surprised when I e-mailed him and told him what I'd done. -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 16 22:47:27 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:47:27 -0600 Subject: loading images via serial port Message-ID: <01c101c70a03$7e1e8ee0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Didn't someone on the list create a program to load disk images from a pc serial port to a pdp's hard disk? I know vtserver, but I thought someone on the list wrote something smaller....? Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 16 23:07:24 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:07:24 -0800 Subject: loading images via serial port In-Reply-To: <01c101c70a03$7e1e8ee0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <01c101c70a03$7e1e8ee0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 10:47 PM -0600 11/16/06, Jay West wrote: >Didn't someone on the list create a program to load disk images from >a pc serial port to a pdp's hard disk? I know vtserver, but I >thought someone on the list wrote something smaller....? I think what you're looking for is called vtserver. Here is one version. http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Nov 16 23:10:35 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 05:10:35 -0000 Subject: FW: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> ________________________________ From: Rod Smallwood Sent: 16 November 2006 08:01 To: 'cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org' Subject: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues Hi And thanks again for all the suggestions Having successfully reset tht SYSTEM password (Here's how) * 1. Once at the SYSBOOT prompt, request that OpenVMS read the system startup commands directly from the system console, that the window system (if any) not be started, and that OpenVMS not record these particular parameter changes for subsequent system reboots: 1. SET/STARTUP OPA0: SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0 SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE * 1. At the $ prompt, the system will now be accepting startup commands directly from the console. Type the following two DCL commands: 1. $ SPAWN $ @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP 1. You should now see the dollar ($) prompt of DCL. The result of these two commands will be the normal system startup, but you will be left logged in on the console, running under a fully privileged username. Without the use of the SPAWN command, you would be logged out when the startup completes. Perform the task(s) required, such as resetting the password on the SYSTEM username as described in Section 5.6.1 or registering one or more license product authorization keys (PAKs) as described in Section 5.6.2 . 2. Once you log out of this session, the system will complete the startup and can be used normally. You can choose to reboot the system, but that is not necessary. This is mostly correct.... But what they don't say is the system gets left in a minimum condition. In my case only the drive it booted from ie no 2/3rd drives, no tape and no ethernet devices. Under the low level prompt (>>>) all devices are shown as present. i.e. DIA0 (RF71), DIA1 (RF72), DIA2 (RF72) MUA0 (Tape) and EZA0 (ethernet) OK so lets try reversing the commands at the SYSBOOT prompt SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP SYS$SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;2 SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 1 SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 1 SYSBOOT> CONTINUE startup begins, Then the following errors: invalid logical name previous value of SYSUAF has been superseded error opening SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]BT$DEFINE_SYSTEMS.COM; as input file not found ON MIN OR UPGRADE START UP CLUE IS NOT RUN Then a load of OPCOM messages Then.... minimum system startup, security server not started Then some system stats and finally a Username: login OK .. I login and am still in minimum mode. I can't see anything in the online docs to cover this. If anybody does know where the answer is a link would be nice. Rod I have had a go at the VMS online manual but can't see anything related to this. If anybody does know of a reference could that send me a link From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 01:41:39 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:41:39 -0500 Subject: Practical question on valuation of old systems In-Reply-To: <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <455C6410.20056.A54161F@cclist.sydex.com> <20061116212828.72639.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > can anyone foresee old puters going on the block at > posh auction houses like Christie's or Southebie's? Maybe for a few isolated examples, but for the most part - no. It is likely that interest in old computers will never reach the point where any auction houses will take the stuff. It is not a bad thing - there are plenty of other much larger and more mature collecting fields that have not hit that point either, and probably never will. The bread and butter of the antique auction world consists of furniture, art, glassware/silverware, rugs, and jewelry. The critical mass of collectors exists in these fields, but scarcely anywhere else. -- Will From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 17 02:13:53 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:13:53 +0000 Subject: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 17/11/06 05:10, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > This is mostly correct.... But what they don't say is the system gets > left in a minimum condition. Since you're only really doing this to reset the password the lack of other devices is unimportant, all you need access to is sys$system:sysuaf.dat. > OK so lets try reversing the commands at the SYSBOOT prompt > > SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP SYS$SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;2 Set/start sys$system:startup.com. I'm not aware of any file called sys$systartup_vms.com, the site specific file is sys$manager:systartup_vms.com. You can see this yourself by doing SHOW/START when you first get to SYSBOOT. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 17 02:24:01 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:24:01 -0000 Subject: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004501c70a21$bded6a00$0504010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > SET/STARTUP OPA0: > SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0 > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > CONTINUE OK so this bit says "start fromm OPA0: (the console), don't do any of this next time". > $ SPAWN > $ @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP After this bit you have enough of OpenVMS running to fiddle with the system manager's password. At this stage you would do: $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM: $ MC AUTHORIZE UAF> MOD SYSTEM/PASS=somethingmemorable/PWDLIF=0 UAF> EXIT (It's been years since I've had to break in so I may have mis-typed or missed a step ... I'm sure someone will chip in if I have) So now reboot and when the system comes up normally you just login as SYSTEM with your memorable password. > This is mostly correct.... But what they don't say is the system gets > left in a minimum condition. Did you log out and did it reboot? > In my case only the drive it booted from ie no 2/3rd drives, no tape > and no ethernet devices. > Under the low level prompt (>>>) all devices are shown as present. > i.e. DIA0 (RF71), DIA1 (RF72), DIA2 (RF72) MUA0 (Tape) and EZA0 > (ethernet) I'm guessing that $ MC SYSGEN A A /LOG would have sorted you out but ... > > OK so lets try reversing the commands at the SYSBOOT prompt > > SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP SYS$SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;2 Should this not be SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM? It absolutely should not have a version number in there. > SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 1 > > SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 1 > > SYSBOOT> CONTINUE > > startup begins, > > Then the following errors: > > invalid logical name > previous value of SYSUAF has been superseded > error opening SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]BT$DEFINE_SYSTEMS.COM; as input > file not found > ON MIN OR UPGRADE START UP CLUE IS NOT RUN You are using the wrong startup procedure and some pre-requisite has not run. > Then a load of OPCOM messages Definitely set the startup procedure properly. > If anybody does know where the answer is a link would be nice. After your first reboot the startup would have been restored to the correct value. WRITESYSPARAMS of 0 means "don't write anything I've changed back to a file on exit so none of the changes will be present on next boot". If all you've changed is as described above, then reset the startup procedure (WINDOW_SYSTEM is fine as is) and you'll be OK. Antonio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 07:45:46 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 02:45:46 +1300 Subject: Ventel 2400 plus II comand set In-Reply-To: <200611162101.25313.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200611162101.25313.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 11/17/06, Mike wrote: > > Does any one have documentation on this modem? > Particularly the the command set. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 08:12:04 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 03:12:04 +1300 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: References: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > On 16 Nov 2006 at 14:34, Chris M wrote: > > > Possibly both. What if both were important? > > Then you wouldn't be trying to separate them, would you? :) > > You might, if you needed to remove the chip for testing (either to test > the chip, or to be able to force signals that it drove on the board so as > to test other bits of the machine). Or if you wanted to read out the > program from said chip (maybe it's a PAL or a microcontroller, or something). Or have a use for the chip, but value the board as well (especially in the case of being able to restore it to full functionality later). > Yes, you can separate ICs and PCBs without damaging either. I do it all > the time. Me, too. The most recent example I can think of is removing an INS6120 12-bit CPU from a DECmate III board and sticking the chip into an SBC6120. I needed the chip right away, but I wanted to replace the soldered 40-pin DIP CPU with a machined-pin socket for the day when I wanted/needed to run that board in a DECmate chassis. The entire board cost me $50, what a bare CPU would have cost, but I wanted to retain two working parts, not just one. For those keeping score at home, the board is a 4-layer board with internal power/gnd pins that do _not_ want to let go of a DIP CPU. 38 pins were easy... the power and ground pins were not. In the end, I managed to end up with an intact CPU *and* an intact board, but unless you have pro-grade tools, you'll find it difficult to replicate this effort. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 08:37:02 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:37:02 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: References: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Me, too. The most recent example I can think of is removing an > INS6120 12-bit CPU from a DECmate III board and sticking the chip into > an SBC6120. I needed the chip right away, but I wanted to replace the > soldered 40-pin DIP CPU with a machined-pin socket for the day when I > wanted/needed to run that board in a DECmate chassis. Be careful when pulling chips - you just can not do this willy nilly and expect nothing to happen. Everytime a chip goes thru a heat cycle like soldering (or unsoldering) you damage the chip. There is no way around this. Even the first cycle, when the chip leaves the tube (or tape) for the first time, to be stuck to the board, the chip takes a beating internally. Obviously the manufacturers make the chips to get thru this first heat, but generally not any (or many) other cycles. In the real world, a tech that unsolders chips and reuses them tends to be shown the door quickly by the QC guys. -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 17 10:49:23 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:49:23 -0500 Subject: wtd tandy 6000. sanyo mbc-xxx, tektronix tc-2000 Message-ID: <01C70A3E.B4F42DE0@MSE_D03> >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:02:18 -0800 (PST) >From: Chris M >Subject: wtd tandy 6000. sanyo mbc-xxx, tektronix tc-2000 >some trades possible. Also want Zenith Z-100 and >related stuph I've got an MBC555/2 up here in Toronto if you want it; do you want it as badly as that person with the Apple/// ? mike From vrs at msn.com Fri Nov 17 10:53:32 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:53:32 -0800 Subject: loading images via serial port References: <01c101c70a03$7e1e8ee0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > Didn't someone on the list create a program to load disk images from a pc > serial port to a pdp's hard disk? I know vtserver, but I thought someone > on the list wrote something smaller....? You might be thinking of dumprest, but that's a PDP-8 thing. Vince From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 17 11:29:54 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:29:54 -0800 Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection Message-ID: <455DF192.E3173AF8@rain.org> I was searching around and came across the place where the ACP computer collection ended up. The URL is: http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ From jrr at flippers.com Fri Nov 17 09:03:01 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 07:03:01 -0800 Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) In-Reply-To: <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:44 PM -0800 11/16/06, Chris M wrote: >--- Holger Veit >wrote: > > > B. Degnan schrieb: >... > > Or desolder it from a CGA card or any other IBM >compatible with built in video. I recommend a cool >water wave tank for the process. ... OK, what the heck is a 'cool water wave tank' for desoldering and how do I make one??? Google search did not turn up anything called that... John :-#)# From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 17 11:52:43 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:52:43 -0500 Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection In-Reply-To: <455DF192.E3173AF8@rain.org> Message-ID: <002e01c70a71$2ec0adb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Correct. I don't have the details (yet --- I will soon), but the buyer of Dave's stuff is Andrew Filoposki. He's a widely known dot-com zillionaire and he's just called "Flip" by everyone in IT circles. I have no idea how he got that nickname, but seriously, everyone calls the man Flip. He's been involved in many companies and his current venture and bio is here: http://www.silkroadtech.com/company/leadership/index.htm#flip -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Johnston [mailto:marvin at rain.org] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:30 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection I was searching around and came across the place where the ACP computer collection ended up. The URL is: http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 17 12:11:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:11:44 -0700 Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:29:54 -0800. <455DF192.E3173AF8@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <455DF192.E3173AF8 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > I was searching around and came across the place where the ACP computer > collection ended up. The URL is: > > http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ Is this the collection that had a US$100,000 reserve on ebay? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 17 12:29:28 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <485728.49944.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > Be careful when pulling chips - you just can not do > this willy nilly > and expect nothing to happen. Everytime a chip goes > thru a heat cycle > like soldering (or unsoldering) you damage the chip. > There is no way > around this. Even the first cycle, when the chip > leaves the tube (or > tape) for the first time, to be stuck to the board, > the chip takes a > beating internally. Obviously the manufacturers make > the chips to get > thru this first heat, but generally not any (or > many) other cycles. > > In the real world, a tech that unsolders chips and > reuses them tends > to be shown the door quickly by the QC guys. so if you presumably (probably? possibly?) eliminate any heat getting to the ic's innards by the method I described, you're likely doing no damage to it? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 17 12:58:38 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:58:38 +0200 Subject: Any MVME hobbyists here? Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2006, at 15:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > "147" sounds VERY familiar. I've not really "gotten into" those >boards, but I'd sure like to. Could you share your files? > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Cape Coral, FL Sure, Give some more specifications, MVME147 or earlier 141,131,130?. Should we continue privately, please email m n u s a 2 at hotmail dot com. _________________________________________________________________ Nyt l?yd?t etsim?si tiedot nopeasti niin koneeltasi kuin netist?. http://toolbar.msn.fi From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 17 13:06:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:06:40 -0800 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <485728.49944.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <485728.49944.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455D97C0.30587.F05FC11@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2006 at 10:29, Chris M wrote: > so if you presumably (probably? possibly?) eliminate > any heat getting to the ic's innards by the method I > described, you're likely doing no damage to it? I'm not sure about this, but it would seem that using water to cool the body of an IC while needing to apply more heat to the pin to melt the solder would make for a steeper temperature gradient through the packaging. Could this in fact be counter-productive by increasing stresses on the encapsulation? I really don't worry too much about overheating a chip by desoldering it. Consider that what destroys a chip thermally during operation is localized overheating within the die itself. Using a temperature- controlled iron would seem to elminate most overheating problems. As another example, consider the use of ovens for mounting SMT devices. No water there--and the small, low thermal-mass SMT devices seem to survive just fine. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 17 13:16:51 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:16:51 -0800 Subject: separating rare ICs from boards/ was Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... References: <455C7E0B.6379.AB99132@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <455E0AA4.D4673969@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Or have a use for the chip, but value the board as well (especially in > the case of being able to restore it to full functionality later). > > but I wanted to retain two working parts, not just one. For those keeping ... had a similar situation with two pieces of equipment based on the 4004 processor, both of which I wanted to keep functional. Both use 4201's (clock generator specifically for 4004/4040 systems, a rather obscure little IC) but one of the 4201's had failed. Fortunately the remaining good one was already socketed so there was no problem moving it over after replacing the bad one with a socket. I've since been able to replicate the functionality of the 4201 with 3 SSI CMOS ICs so I don't have to keep swapping the good 4201 back and forth. (...cracked the bad 4201 open and actually managed to find the fault under a microscope - a blown trace in a metalization layer ... not that I can do anything about it.) From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Nov 17 14:20:19 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:20:19 -0500 Subject: FW: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.loc al> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200611172020.kAHKKJEV025933@mail.itm-inst.com> At 12:10 AM 11/17/2006, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >OK .. I login and am still in minimum mode. > >I can't see anything in the online docs to cover this. At the SYSBOOT prompt, try SHOW STARTUP_P1 it's probably set to "MIN". You need to clear that, so: SET STARTUP_P1 " " CONTINUE That'll get you a normal (non-minimum) startup. -Rick From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 14:46:14 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:46:14 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <485728.49944.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <485728.49944.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > so if you presumably (probably? possibly?) eliminate > any heat getting to the ic's innards by the method I > described, you're likely doing no damage to it? The better option is to heat the chip up reasonably slowly - when I strip a chip from a board (I use a solder pot), I will just warm the part in question up a bit. When the solder pot hits the pins, the internal structures of the chip will not get a big jolt. This is quite similar to how the big pick and place solder machines work on a factory floor. Of course the thing to do is to not need to use a pulled part in the first place, but sometimes that is not really an option with rare chips. Just keep in mind that a solder pulled chip is a weaker device than one factory new, and that latent failures lie within. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 17 15:10:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:10:34 -0800 Subject: Another ePay special--ALF Diskette Copier Message-ID: <455DB4CA.1979.F776D01@cclist.sydex.com> I've had this thing kicking around for a very long time and could never figure out a use for it. It's an ALF 811 diskette copier and copies 96 tpi 5.25" diskettes. It seems not to care a bit if the floppies are FM or MFM or if they're DD or HD. It will NOT copy 48 tpi media. It's eBay item 320050592195. It's kind of cute, but since there is no way to retain an image of a diskette, just the physical media, it hasn't been terribly useful. I do note what looks like an empty socket for a MAX232 next to a header on the PCB, so it's possible that there's an RS-232 interface that I'm not aware of. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 15:12:13 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:12:13 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455D97C0.30587.F05FC11@cclist.sydex.com> References: <485728.49944.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <455D97C0.30587.F05FC11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm not sure about this, but it would seem that using water to cool > the body of an IC while needing to apply more heat to the pin to melt > the solder would make for a steeper temperature gradient through the > packaging. Could this in fact be counter-productive by increasing > stresses on the encapsulation? > > I really don't worry too much about overheating a chip by desoldering > it. Consider that what destroys a chip thermally during operation is > localized overheating within the die itself. Using a temperature- > controlled iron would seem to elminate most overheating problems. Soldering cycles cause latent failures - parts of the chip that still work, but are much weaker. A typical type of latent failure is a microscopic crack caused by a thermal shock. As long as the crack is closed, the electrons will probably not worry too much about jumping it, much like two wires touching. However, the problems of microscopic cracks in a semiconductor die make for a weak spot that perhaps can not handle another solder cycle or current surge. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 17 17:43:15 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:43:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is this thing? Message-ID: <200611172343.kAHNh82c037763@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, I received a 4MB PCMCIA ram card off of eBay today. It's by Amitek and is for the A600 & A1200. It is known as RAM 6040 and has the serial number A010100. It states on the back of the video box (yes, it's in a video box) that it was distributed in the UK by SDL. On the front of the box it states "4MB populated", what does that mean? However, the main reason for this post is this: Inside the box is (as the seller stated) "a thing". It's a small oblong object with a female 9 pin connector (like a mouse port). On the opposite end is a smal sticker with "K50076" on it. On the top of the "thing" is a chequered pattern in silver which starts about 2cm from either end. It is completely sealed all the way around, no screws or join marks, with the only exception being the connector bit. I even tried shaking it! No sound at all. As stated the seller has no idea what this is and I am totally stumped too. What is it?! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 17:57:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:57:40 +1300 Subject: What is this thing? In-Reply-To: <200611172343.kAHNh82c037763@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611172343.kAHNh82c037763@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11/18/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hi, > > I received a 4MB PCMCIA ram card off of eBay > today. It's by Amitek and is for the A600 & > A1200. It is known as RAM 6040 and has the > serial number A010100. It states on the back > of the video box (yes, it's in a video box) that > it was distributed in the UK by SDL. On the > front of the box it states "4MB populated", > what does that mean? Sounds like they sold more than one size - perhaps the same base board, but with different amounts of RAM chips installed. > However, the main reason for this post is this: > Inside the box is (as the seller stated) "a > thing". It's a small oblong object with a > female 9 pin connector (like a mouse port). On > the opposite end is a smal sticker with > "K50076" on it. On the top of the "thing" is a > chequered pattern in silver which starts about > 2cm from either end. It is completely sealed > all the way around, no screws or join marks, > with the only exception being the connector > bit. I even tried shaking it! No sound at all. > As stated the seller has no idea what this is > and I am totally stumped too. What is it?! Sounds like an application key - a 'dongle'. Certain packages, even for the Amiga, required a hardware "key" to operate. Some have ROMs inside, some are simple resistor/capacitor/diode arrangements for game ports. I know I have an Amiga database package with a dongle, but I don't know what app yours might be for. Perhaps someone will recognize it from the description. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 17 18:01:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:01:26 -0700 Subject: What is this thing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:57:40 +1300. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > I know I have an Amiga database package with a dongle, but I don't > know what app yours might be for. Perhaps someone will recognize it > from the description. A picture would be even better :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Nov 17 18:19:43 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:19:43 -0500 Subject: 11/34 done References: <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000901c70aa7$3ffe8710$0100a8c0@screamer> So what was the DSD440 issue? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:34 PM Subject: 11/34 done > Picture is at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/1134.jpg > > 11/34A, 128kw, RL01, RL02, DSD440. > > I still need to clean the side panels up, but it's assembled and up and > running RT11 :) > > Back to that /44 I guess... just have to get working drives on it. Then > hopefully back to the /45. > > Jay > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 17 18:51:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:51:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 17, 6 03:46:14 pm Message-ID: > Of course the thing to do is to not need to use a pulled part in the > first place, but sometimes that is not really an option with rare > chips. Just keep in mind that a solder pulled chip is a weaker device > than one factory new, and that latent failures lie within. While heating a chip (e.g. by soldering/desoldering it) will weaken it, I am not sure the effect is particularly noticeable. I've not noticed that the chips I've desolderd/resoldered are especially likely to fail (e.g. if I've removed a few chips from a board for testing, then resoldered them, future failures on that board may well not involve any of those chips). I've done it with SMD stuff too -- the manufacturers tell you not to, but I have never had any problems from so soing. If I was making stuff where a failure could cause significant loss or injury then I'd bahave rather differently of course. And given the choice between a backup of the program in a chip (e.g. on my PC) and a possibly weaker chip (that is, I've desoldered it to copy it [1]) and not weakening the chip but no backup (so when it fails I am really stucK), I'll pick the former every time. [1] Of course I don't resolder it. I put in a turned-pin socket. Always. We can debate the reliabilty of sockets ad nauseam, but none of the classics I own are in 'mission critical' -- if I get bad contacts at a socket I can rasily reseat the chip without any real problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 17 18:56:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:56:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What is this thing? In-Reply-To: <200611172343.kAHNh82c037763@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Nov 17, 6 05:43:15 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi, > > I received a 4MB PCMCIA ram card off of eBay > today. It's by Amitek and is for the A600 & > A1200. It is known as RAM 6040 and has the > serial number A010100. It states on the back > of the video box (yes, it's in a video box) that > it was distributed in the UK by SDL. On the > front of the box it states "4MB populated", > what does that mean? 'Populated' meanss much the same as 'chips fitted'. I can read that statement in 2 ways. Either this board will hold 4Mbytes when populated, or that this board is currently populated with 4Mbytes of chips. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out which. > > > However, the main reason for this post is this: > Inside the box is (as the seller stated) "a > thing". It's a small oblong object with a > female 9 pin connector (like a mouse port). On > the opposite end is a smal sticker with > "K50076" on it. On the top of the "thing" is a > chequered pattern in silver which starts about > 2cm from either end. It is completely sealed > all the way around, no screws or join marks, > with the only exception being the connector > bit. I even tried shaking it! No sound at all. > As stated the seller has no idea what this is > and I am totally stumped too. What is it?! My first guess is a software protection 'dongle'. It's sealed so that it can't (easily) be reverese-engineered or copied. If it's for the Amiga, I would guess it plugs into one of the joystick ports, if it's for a PC, then into an AT style seiral port. -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Nov 17 19:53:12 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:53:12 -0500 Subject: Another ePay special--ALF Diskette Copier In-Reply-To: <455DB4CA.1979.F776D01@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455DB4CA.1979.F776D01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061118015312.E288EBA41DB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I've had this thing kicking around for a very long time and could > never figure out a use for it. It's an ALF 811 diskette copier and > copies 96 tpi 5.25" diskettes. It seems not to care a bit if the > floppies are FM or MFM or if they're DD or HD. It will NOT copy 48 > tpi media. > > It's eBay item 320050592195. > > It's kind of cute, but since there is no way to retain an image of a > diskette, just the physical media, it hasn't been terribly useful. > > I do note what looks like an empty socket for a MAX232 next to a > header on the PCB, so it's possible that there's an RS-232 interface > that I'm not aware of. If there is a RS-232 type interface, it is probably to an automatic floppy disk changer. It feeds blanks in and stacks copies out. The 3.5" changers were kinda nifty, but the 5.25" and 8" floppy changers were moderately cantankerous, combining the worst parts of a sheet feeder with the worst parts of a card hopper. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 17 20:08:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:08:29 -0600 Subject: 11/34 done References: <000501c709cf$622b17a0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <000901c70aa7$3ffe8710$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <001b01c70ab6$748f1c10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Bob S. wrote... > So what was the DSD440 issue? The DSD440 is the only component not working. I hooked up an RX02 externally today just long enough to get the software on it I wanted. If you'll recall, you were going to help me troubleshoot the main logic board on the DSD440 before you got busy on some other things. The DSD440 has an 8085 master cpu that controls general housekeeping and the communication between it and the host controller. It also has a bitslice cpu using three 2901's that does the actual bit stream decoding from the floppy. I have diagnosed the problem far enough to know that the 8085 and the bitslice processor are not communicating. The 8085 sends a command to the bit slice cpu which is supposed to do a few tasks asynchronously and then signal back to the 8085 saying "done". The 8085 is never getting that completion signal back from the bit slice cpu (nor is it getting an error signal back). The 8085 gets waken up by a watchdog timeout signal, so it is able to present a "hey, the bitslice cpu isn't responding" message instead of just waiting forever. The problem is, I have no idea if the 8085 isn't getting the ready signal because the bit slice cpu is dead/nonrunning, or if it's caught in a loop or error state (that prevents if from sending back the ready signal), or if the bit slice cpu is actually doing what it's supposed to be doing ok and the ready signal just isn't getting back to the 8085. It is one of those three possibilities. Due to other tests, I'm fairly sure the 8085 is working correctly itself. I have checked that all the major components of the bit slice cpu are getting good Vcc, and all the pertinent chips are getting a good clock signal as well. On the directly related chips I can see a good clock signal being output too (there's a 12mhz crystal which is sliced up into several clock signals forming a bus that drives a lot of stuff on the board).. However, I lack the technical skills to go further and see if the bitslice cpu is actually DOING something, or if it's stuck/not running, etc. The handshake logic between the two is confusing me. Not to mention I really would rather not have to learn the microinstruction set the 2901 lash-up implements. So, the DSD440 has sat on the back burner. The clearence is such that you can't really get probes on a running board, so I built a small extension to let me run it mostly out of the chassis. If I ever got time or direction/help, I was thinking the next step would be to hook a logic analyzer up to the address lines on the bitslice cpu and see if it's moving or repeating a specific set of address accesses ad-nauseum. But I'm getting out of my league there. Jay From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Sat Nov 18 00:52:05 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 23:52:05 -0700 Subject: loading images via serial port In-Reply-To: <200611171800.kAHI07vr087890@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611171800.kAHI07vr087890@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <455EAD95.7000602@rogerwilco.org> Jay West wrote: > Didn't someone on the list create a program to load disk images from a pc > serial port to a pdp's hard disk? I know vtserver, but I thought someone on > the list wrote something smaller....? You might be thinking of Will Kranz's TU-58 emulator. I use it all the time while testing my collection of LSI PDP-11s. http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm Since it's going through a serial port, it's not particularly fast, but it does work well if you have the time. I've imaged several dozen RL01 (5MB) and RL02 (10MB) disk cartridges, along with a horde of RX01 and RX02 floppies. J From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 00:59:47 2006 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:59:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF 9-Woz talks about VCF9 on Tavis Smiley In-Reply-To: <000e01c70869$9be08780$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> Message-ID: <20061118065947.33488.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Fisher wrote: > Hello all, > > Just to put my belated two cents in about VCF 9.0... > This was my second time around and this year was > even better than the last! I particularly enjoyed > the build sessions for the Replica I (bravo Vince!) Just saw Woz promoting his book on Tavis, he talked about wishing he had time building the computer he saw constructed at a recent computer club meeting (i.e., Apple replica, VCF9) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $420k for $1,399/mo. Think You Pay Too Much For Your Mortgage? Find Out! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From fa475919 at skynet.be Fri Nov 17 17:49:32 2006 From: fa475919 at skynet.be (Stijn Bagin) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:49:32 +0100 Subject: sanyo lat-200a. Message-ID: <000a01c70aa3$07b26fb0$0201a8c0@digit> Hi, I'm responding to this old thread about the Sanyo LaT-200a because I have here a Running Sanyo SAT-250A /X286. This board is located inside a Sanyo LT17 Laptop (or something that once was) and is running perfectl with an AMD 80286, 640k conv and 384k upper. If anyone still reads this and might be interested or just want's more information, you can contact me at stijnbagin at hotmail.com Only trouble is that it has some sort of 50-pins connection harddrive setup (i have been thinking SCSI) directly on the mainboard from which I can make heads nor tails. I want to hook up a standard 40 pins IDE drive, but I'm not sure how to proceed without a datasheet on the specific connector... The Bios knows all 47 standard HD layouts and a 3,5 inch floppy drive is already in place... I also succeeded to remove the old monochrome LCD display and the huge controllercard and replace it with a smooth standard ISA 16-bit full color Headland Technology's Video 7 board. The only thing remaining is this Harddrive problem... who helps... ? I must also mention that standard the 50 pins connector was relayed onto a "SMS" controllercard which converted the 50 pins into a managable 26 pins connector on which i can find even less information... The 3,5 inch harddrive took it's juice and information all from these 26 pins (the brand on this harddrive is also unknown on the net).... I'm hoping this controllercard is unimportant and that the 50 pins are the ones to proceed with... Greetz From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Nov 18 00:21:42 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:21:42 -0000 Subject: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks that's moved me on a bit Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: 17 November 2006 08:24 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues Rod Smallwood wrote: > SET/STARTUP OPA0: > SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0 > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > CONTINUE OK so this bit says "start fromm OPA0: (the console), don't do any of this next time". > $ SPAWN > $ @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP After this bit you have enough of OpenVMS running to fiddle with the system manager's password. At this stage you would do: $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM: $ MC AUTHORIZE UAF> MOD SYSTEM/PASS=somethingmemorable/PWDLIF=0 UAF> EXIT (It's been years since I've had to break in so I may have mis-typed or missed a step ... I'm sure someone will chip in if I have) So now reboot and when the system comes up normally you just login as SYSTEM with your memorable password. > This is mostly correct.... But what they don't say is the system gets > left in a minimum condition. Did you log out and did it reboot? > In my case only the drive it booted from ie no 2/3rd drives, no tape > and no ethernet devices. > Under the low level prompt (>>>) all devices are shown as present. > i.e. DIA0 (RF71), DIA1 (RF72), DIA2 (RF72) MUA0 (Tape) and EZA0 > (ethernet) I'm guessing that $ MC SYSGEN A A /LOG would have sorted you out but ... > > OK so lets try reversing the commands at the SYSBOOT prompt > > SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP SYS$SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;2 Should this not be SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM? It absolutely should not have a version number in there. > SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 1 > > SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 1 > > SYSBOOT> CONTINUE > > startup begins, > > Then the following errors: > > invalid logical name > previous value of SYSUAF has been superseded > error opening SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]BT$DEFINE_SYSTEMS.COM; as input > file not found > ON MIN OR UPGRADE START UP CLUE IS NOT RUN You are using the wrong startup procedure and some pre-requisite has not run. > Then a load of OPCOM messages Definitely set the startup procedure properly. > If anybody does know where the answer is a link would be nice. After your first reboot the startup would have been restored to the correct value. WRITESYSPARAMS of 0 means "don't write anything I've changed back to a file on exit so none of the changes will be present on next boot". If all you've changed is as described above, then reset the startup procedure (WINDOW_SYSTEM is fine as is) and you'll be OK. Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Nov 18 00:22:20 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:22:20 -0000 Subject: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393CE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Most helpful Thanks -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham Sent: 17 November 2006 08:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Vax 4000-200 - The Saga continues On 17/11/06 05:10, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > This is mostly correct.... But what they don't say is the system gets > left in a minimum condition. Since you're only really doing this to reset the password the lack of other devices is unimportant, all you need access to is sys$system:sysuaf.dat. > OK so lets try reversing the commands at the SYSBOOT prompt > > SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP SYS$SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;2 Set/start sys$system:startup.com. I'm not aware of any file called sys$systartup_vms.com, the site specific file is sys$manager:systartup_vms.com. You can see this yourself by doing SHOW/START when you first get to SYSBOOT. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Nov 18 07:26:57 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:26:57 -0500 Subject: 11/34 done In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:08:46 CST." <00b901c709e4$f04ab5d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200611181326.kAIDQvi5021216@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: > >I had to move a bunch of things so that I could wrangle the /34 cpu onto the >rails. Plus the photo is very carefully framed. I have NO room ;) A very nice looking setup! (and I'm sure a ton of work to get it that way) I'm curious - does the '34 have the 1.5" thick silver slides on the side and if so, did you find matching slides? (where? what model?) I've never heard any recent stories about mounting '34s or '44's when the original slides where missing. (and I, uh, naturally have this problem :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Nov 18 07:30:32 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:30:32 -0500 Subject: loading images via serial port In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:07:24 PST." Message-ID: <200611181330.kAIDUWjH021429@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >At 10:47 PM -0600 11/16/06, Jay West wrote: >>Didn't someone on the list create a program to load disk images from >>a pc serial port to a pdp's hard disk? I know vtserver, but I >>thought someone on the list wrote something smaller....? > >I think what you're looking for is called vtserver. > >Here is one version. http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm note: this works fine an 11/34 and Qbus cpu's but it won't work on an 11/44. It could be hacked to work on a 11/44 using an alternate serial port but I've never seen that. The 11/44 console responds to control characters (like ^P) rendering the protocol unworkable. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 08:33:07 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:33:07 -0600 Subject: loading images via serial port References: <200611171800.kAHI07vr087890@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455EAD95.7000602@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <001b01c70b1e$772a3e10$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > You might be thinking of Will Kranz's TU-58 emulator. I use it all the > time while testing my collection of LSI PDP-11s. I think that was it. Thanks. As I said, I am aware of vtserver but was looking for something different. I also seem to remember a list member made a paper tape emulator of some kind for the pc... foggy probably incorrect memory :) Thanks!!! Jay West From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Nov 18 09:24:02 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:24:02 -0600 Subject: Cell processors - What is old is new again (Re: More ePay madness In-Reply-To: <455CF641.6010006@msm.umr.edu> References: <003001c709d3$bafd9980$0504010a@uatempname> <455CF641.6010006@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <455F2592.9080108@brutman.com> jim stephens wrote: > > I'd just like one of the Cell processors, forget the game, to play with, > and a linux distro to run on it. > > Sorry for way way off topic. Jim - check out IBM's web site. A simulator for the Cell chip and an SDK (version 1.1) are available. (SDK 2.0 is coming out soon.) You can download onto a Fedora Core 5 x86 box and simulate your own Cell processor, including Linux and the Cell specific stuff. Cell reminds me a lot of programming on my older iron. The 'SPUs' are coprocessors with 256KB of memory, no cache, no virtual memory, no shared libs, etc. If you start trashing your code with a loose pointer, it just hangs. The CPU pipelines are very simple, so static timing analysis is possible. And one of the best joys of programming on Cell is scheduling your own DMA transfers. :-) Mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 09:43:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:43:14 -0600 Subject: 11/34 done (plus rails, plus dec stuff available) References: <200611181326.kAIDQvi5021216@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003f01c70b28$45571200$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Brad wrote... > A very nice looking setup! (and I'm sure a ton of work to get it that > way) Thanks, and yes it was. Instead of running systems exactly as I get them, I tend to derack everything I get. So there is a section of the basement full of disk drives, a section full of tape drives, a section for cpu's, etc. Then when it's time to build a working system I pick and choose what devices to rack up. This is also because I tend to get peripherals more often than complete systems. I enjoy this more than just flipping on a system as I got it. This way I get to learn all the oddities about how a certain peripheral was racked or cabled in different situations, and I also get a system with exactly the configuration I want. It also teaches one that when walking through the basement and you see a odd bolt or nut on the floor, which ones to dive across the room to grab cause it's that rare needed part versus one you can just walk by ;) But it is a lot of extra work. It always *SEEMS* to me that all the other collectors seem to get hardware that is in presentable (cosmetic) shape. I seem to frequently get hardware that is in really poor shape (rust, faded, hit by a truck, bent up, mouse infested, scratched...). My /34 backplane was originally packed with acorns and mouse "leavings" (It's pristine and shiny now). So out of necessity probably most of my time in restoration is spent on cosmetic issues. Ah well, good practice I guess :) > I'm curious - does the '34 have the 1.5" thick silver slides on the side > and if so, did you find matching slides? (where? what model?) I have 3 of the 1.5" thick silver inner rails, and only one outer rail. I also have 2 of the (approx.) 3.5" thick grey inner rails, and no outer rails. In my case, I got lucky and found a source just a week or two ago that has a few of the complete inner & outer tilting railsets for an attractive price. I'm sure he has a few more. Email me offlist and I'll get you the contact information. > I've never heard any recent stories about mounting '34s or '44's when > the original slides where missing. (and I, uh, naturally have this problem > :-) Well speaking of which... On the /34 front, see above. On the /44 front, I have available two racks which may be of interest. They are those (approx.) 42" tall white dec corp cabs. These are the ones where the /44 goes at the very top of the rack. Instead of sliding out forward on slides, it tilts upwards on gas pistons. One of the racks has no side panels or back door (I was going to use it to make my 11X44-CA into a dual bay system, but then got a TU81+ cabinet instead). This rack does have the cpu mounting hardware & pistons with it. The other is the same height, has both side panels and rear door, is about 7 inches deeper than the other cabinet, and has an 11/44 cpu carcass in it. The 11/44 carcass has no power supply, and just a few really oddball cards in it (this is just as I got it). Both of these racks (and /44 carcass) are available to whoever will take them. Quickly. Please :) I also have a metric buttload of RA81 parts available (so far all HDA's are dead). I have an absolute truckload of complete rack slide sets for RL01/RL02/RA81 drives. I also have available one of the tall white dec corp cabs in good condition with side panels (it was full of RA81's), as well as tons of those "rectangular" SDI cables and ancilliary bulkhead connectors. All the above is available in exchange for a unibus KLESI card & cable, perhaps an H960 back door panel & various H960 hardware associated with the back door, or one of those round hex key door locks with retainer ring! Jay West From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 18 12:14:38 2006 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:14:38 -0500 Subject: sanyo lat-200a. In-Reply-To: <000a01c70aa3$07b26fb0$0201a8c0@digit> References: <000a01c70aa3$07b26fb0$0201a8c0@digit> Message-ID: <455F4D8E.2050007@sbcglobal.net> Stijn Bagin wrote: > Hi, I'm responding to this old thread about the Sanyo LaT-200a because I > have here a Running Sanyo SAT-250A /X286. This board is located inside a > Sanyo LT17 Laptop (or something that once was) and is running perfectl > with an AMD 80286, 640k conv and 384k upper. > > If anyone still reads this and might be interested or just want's more > information, you can contact me at stijnbagin at hotmail.com > > Only trouble is that it has some sort of 50-pins connection harddrive > setup (i have been thinking SCSI) directly on the mainboard from which > I can make heads nor tails. > > I want to hook up a standard 40 pins IDE drive, but I'm not sure how to > proceed without a datasheet on the specific connector... The Bios knows > all 47 standard HD layouts and a 3,5 inch floppy drive is already in > place... I also succeeded to remove the old monochrome LCD display and > the huge controllercard and replace it with a smooth standard ISA 16-bit > full color Headland Technology's Video 7 board. The only thing remaining > is this Harddrive problem... who helps... ? > > I must also mention that standard the 50 pins connector was relayed onto > a "SMS" controllercard which converted the 50 pins into a managable > 26 pins connector on which i can find even less information... The 3,5 > inch harddrive took it's juice and information all from these 26 pins > (the brand on this harddrive is also unknown on the net).... I'm hoping > this controllercard is unimportant and that the 50 pins are the ones to > proceed with... > > Greetz > Hmmm, interesting sounding rig you got there. Are you sure it's a 50 pin connector for the HDD? Also, is it really a "full size" 3.5" hard drive and not a 2.5" laptop drive? IIRC, all laptop HDDs use a 44-pin connector for the IDE. 4 for power, and the other 40 for the data. You can easily get the appropriate adaptors to hook a laptop HDD onto a regular "full size" IDE connection. I've got one in my toolkit for data rescue purposes. Don't know if you could go the other way, though. The laptop might not crank out enough juice for the bigger drive. Wait a minute, just had a thought. Is there a separate connector for power to the HDD? If so, that 50 pin connector could be SCSI, couldn't it? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 14:38:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:38:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <137438.28250.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > so if you presumably (probably? possibly?) > eliminate > > any heat getting to the ic's innards by the method > I > > described, you're likely doing no damage to it? > > The better option is to heat the chip up reasonably > slowly - when I > strip a chip from a board (I use a solder pot), I > will just warm the > part in question up a bit. When the solder pot hits > the pins, the > internal structures of the chip will not get a big > jolt. This is quite > similar to how the big pick and place solder > machines work on a > factory floor. Well I'm not sure if that's better. Granted there would be less of a shock, but wouldn't it be even better to insure no heat gets to the chip at all? I may have borrowed this idea from the model train dudes, but it's the basic heat sink principle. If you're soldering details onto a brass boiler, essentially a thin hollow tube, you run the danger of desoldering previous-nearby work. So, between the part you want to solder and the part you don't want desoldered, encompass that area with a tissue or whatever soaked in water. SO...if you surround the chip (and not necessarily the whole board) with cool water, and possibly agitate with a fish tank pump or something, it's pretty unlikely any heat will get to the chip at all. And if you fear that heat will be prevented from getting to the component side of the pins/solder, I was thinking that dribbling or brushing some wax? onto that side the pins/board to give the area under it a chance to heat up (by being insulated from the water). I know I said that all pretty awkwardly but I'm on 4 hours sleep here... Even Radio Shack used to sell these little aluminum clips that presumably would get clamped onto a pin for desoldering. That's what I seem to remember anyway. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. Www.nextag.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 14:42:19 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:42:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: separating rare ICs from boards/ was Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455E0AA4.D4673969@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <880838.31605.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > (...cracked the bad 4201 open and actually managed > to find the fault under a > microscope - a blown trace in a metalization layer > ... not that I can do > anything about it.) No chance at all? lol ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310k for $999/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Nov 18 14:51:26 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? Message-ID: Does anyone remember if there were any BBS systems back in the day that would scan any uploaded files for viruses before saving them in the files section? Replies copied to me directly would be appreciated. Anyone coming up with a solid example wins a prize. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 18 15:26:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:26:25 -0800 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455F0A01.13436.14AC41DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2006 at 12:51, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Does anyone remember if there were any BBS systems back in the day that > would scan any uploaded files for viruses before saving them in the files > section? > > Replies copied to me directly would be appreciated. > > Anyone coming up with a solid example wins a prize. Do you mean "automatically scanned by default" or "could be configured to scan"? Auntie was certainly one of the latter. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Nov 18 15:20:28 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:20:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: <455F0A01.13436.14AC41DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455F0A01.13436.14AC41DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you mean "automatically scanned by default" or "could be > configured to scan"? Auntie was certainly one of the latter. Hi Chuck. Either or. Looking for information on Auntie now. Anyone have a user guide handy? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 15:48:17 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 16:48:17 -0500 Subject: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <137438.28250.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <137438.28250.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Well I'm not sure if that's better. Granted there > would be less of a shock, but wouldn't it be even > better to insure no heat gets to the chip at all? Heat will get to the chip. You can not stop it travelling up the metal pins to the die. The thermal resistance of the metal is so much less than that of the surrounding material (typical epoxy for DIPs) that heat will mostly ignore anything but the metal - and the metal goes straight to the die. Remember that we are talking about tiny parts here with tiny tolerances, so even a tiny force can have a big effect. The big effect that can happen is the hairline fractures I mentioned earlier. Warming up a chip first and slowly (obviously do not go overboard) will give all the internal parts a chance to expand easily, and when the heat from the solder operation hits those parts, the shock will not be as bad. > Even Radio Shack used to sell these little aluminum > clips that presumably would get clamped onto a pin for > desoldering. That's what I seem to remember anyway. Heat sinks are good as well, just most IC packages can not accept them well, and when they do, they often get in the way. About the only place you can really use them is on the old TO- cans - and there it would be better to just clamp on a normal thick heatsink for the case. The advantage to using these is twofold - the heatsink is designed for the case so it works well, and it gives you something to grab hold of. -- Will QA auditor U S Robotics circa 1996 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 18 16:03:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:03:14 -0800 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: References: , <455F0A01.13436.14AC41DA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <455F12A2.11820.14CDF325@cclist.sydex.com> Here's some upload virus scanners for various BBS, going way back: ULTEST27.ZIP ANSI320.ZIP VIREX312.ZIP VRXBETA2.ZIP (for Maximus BBS) OFU104.ZIP (for Opus BBS) FP067.ZIP (for PCBoard) IPLAB9.ZIP (another for PCBoard) I've got lots of others, if you're interested. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Nov 18 14:01:14 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:01:14 +0000 Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) In-Reply-To: <455C7114.6917.A86EB71@cclist.sydex.com> References: <455C9D06.5050004@iais.fraunhofer.de>, <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <455C7114.6917.A86EB71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <455F668A.20101@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2006 at 13:44, Chris M wrote: > >> Or desolder it from a CGA card or any other IBM >> compatible with built in video. I recommend a cool >> water wave tank for the process. > > You know, when desoldering a chip such as a 40-pin DIP like the 6545, > I've never gotten the chip body anywhere near being too hot to touch. > As a matter of fact, I'd worry that the water would conduct too much > heat away from the chip to allow the PCB solder to melt quickly. I've always found that if the board isn't important but the chip is, a quick blast with the hot-air paint stripper will desolder it quite well. Often you can just pull the chip out with your fingers, because it stays fairly cool. If it really doesn't want to come out, tap it on a piece of wood and it will drop out. Gordon. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 17:02:37 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:02:37 -0600 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? References: Message-ID: <007b01c70b65$a5aed790$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> WWIV did, written by Wayne Bell. Later development was taken over by Jon Riker (Tolkien) in St. Louis (who has moved off the radar, I THINK somewhere in texas). I ran a WWIV board and was on WWIVnet for quite a few years. Still have a backup of the last day the BBS was running (on CDROM) as well as every file ever uploaded. That would include great gobs of C64 software, and just about every DOS/EarlyWindows app of the period. WWIV didn't have virus scanning hard coded into the BBS. But in the configuration there were specific hooks to call external programs upon upload. This was to scan for viri, test the integrity of the zip file, as well as insert an ascii art file inside the archive saying "This file was from.....". If you want proof, I can send you the running BBS :) Jay From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 18 17:13:54 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:13:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is this thing? Message-ID: <200611182313.kAINDslO081967@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > However, the main reason for this post is this: > > Inside the box is (as the seller stated) "a > > thing". It's a small oblong object with a > > female 9 pin connector (like a mouse port). On > > the opposite end is a smal sticker with > > "K50076" on it. On the top of the "thing" is a > > chequered pattern in silver which starts about > > 2cm from either end. It is completely sealed > > all the way around, no screws or join marks, > > with the only exception being the connector > > bit. I even tried shaking it! No sound at all. > > As stated the seller has no idea what this is > > and I am totally stumped too. What is it?! > > My first guess is a software protection 'dongle'. > It's sealed so that it > can't (easily) be reverese-engineered or copied. I f > it's for the Amiga, I > would guess it plugs into one of the joystick port s, > if it's for a PC, > then into an AT style seiral port. > > -tony > I have managed to get some pics onto my website. Please forgive the quality, but they have been taken using my Dreameye (Sega Dreamcast digital camera) which uses 8 years old technology. Still not bad though, eh? :) http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/mysite/glists /amiga_thing.html So, is it a "dongle" then? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 17:33:53 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:33:53 +1300 Subject: What is this thing? In-Reply-To: <200611182313.kAINDslO081967@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611182313.kAINDslO081967@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11/19/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > ... a small oblong object with a > > > female 9 pin connector (like a mouse port). On > > > the opposite end is a smal sticker with > > > "K50076" on it. On the top of the "thing" is a > > > chequered pattern in silver which starts about > > > 2cm from either end. It is completely sealed > > > all the way around... > I have managed to get some pics onto my > website... > http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/mysite/glists > /amiga_thing.html > > So, is it a "dongle" then? That's what it looks like. The "silver checkerboard" looks to me like the remains of a "removal voids warranty" sticker. It might have formerly been marked as to the software vendor or protected product, but now, it seems to be anonymous. If you can find the software that it is expecting, it's worth something. Otherwise, it's just a lump. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 18:01:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:01:47 -0600 Subject: What is this thing? References: <200611182313.kAINDslO081967@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00bf01c70b6d$e9b43270$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ethan wrote... > The "silver checkerboard" looks to me like the remains of a "removal > voids warranty" sticker. The silver checkerboard is also left after removal of some "Property of the University of...." or other Corporate Assett Tags. Not all of them of course, but I have seen some that leave that distinctive pattern when removed. Matter of fact, two days ago I took one off an RL02 drive and saw that silver checkerboard. Five minutes of soaking with GoGone and 30 seconds with a razorblade and it was gone :) Jay West From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 18 18:02:41 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:02:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is this thing? Message-ID: <200611190002.kAJ02fed083311@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/19/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > > > ... a small oblong object with a > > > > female 9 pin connector (like a mouse port). On > > > > the opposite end is a smal sticker with > > > > "K50076" on it. On the top of the "thing" is a > > > > chequered pattern in silver which starts abo ut > > > > 2cm from either end. It is completely sealed > > > > all the way around... > > > I have managed to get some pics onto my > > website... > > > http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/mysite/glis ts > > /amiga_thing.html > > > > So, is it a "dongle" then? > > That's what it looks like. > > The "silver checkerboard" looks to me like the > remains of a "removal > voids warranty" sticker. It might have formerly > been marked as to the > software vendor or protected product, but now, it > seems to be > anonymous. > > If you can find the software that it is expecting, > it's worth > something. Otherwise, it's just a lump. > > -ethan > ok, thanks everyone for the help. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cbajpai at comcast.net Sat Nov 18 18:52:48 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:52:48 -0500 Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection In-Reply-To: <002e01c70a71$2ec0adb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200611190052.kAJ0qw7Y085827@keith.ezwind.net> "Flip" Filoposki got that nickname because buys companies and "flips" them. I think he was the CEO of Platinum Software which he later sold and made a ton of money. He was also at the helm of Devine Interventures (the dotcom co) which was one the big disasters of that era. He can't be all that bad if he is a vintage computer guy. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New Museum - The ACP Collection Correct. I don't have the details (yet --- I will soon), but the buyer of Dave's stuff is Andrew Filoposki. He's a widely known dot-com zillionaire and he's just called "Flip" by everyone in IT circles. I have no idea how he got that nickname, but seriously, everyone calls the man Flip. He's been involved in many companies and his current venture and bio is here: http://www.silkroadtech.com/company/leadership/index.htm#flip -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Johnston [mailto:marvin at rain.org] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:30 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection I was searching around and came across the place where the ACP computer collection ended up. The URL is: http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 18 19:01:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:01:40 -0800 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: <007b01c70b65$a5aed790$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: , <007b01c70b65$a5aed790$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <455F3C74.14717.15714DB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2006 at 17:02, Jay West wrote: > If you want proof, I can send you the running BBS :) Same here--I discovered the hard disk with Windows NT and Auntie on it. Popped it into a system that shouldn't have booted it (different method of BIOS calculating sector addresses) but it came right up in "Waiting for call". Said NT system also used UUPC (not a typo) to collect email (my ISP didn't offer POP access at the time). But now that I think about it, I remember many PCBoard systems using an upload checker, too. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 19:09:38 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:09:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? Message-ID: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Do they really allow a pseudo-compatible to utilize vanilla DOS telecom programs? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 19:32:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:32:10 -0600 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? References: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010601c70b7a$8a0de2f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > Do they really allow a pseudo-compatible to utilize > vanilla DOS telecom programs? Eh, not sure that's quite the right way to look at it, but in the final analysis, yes. In the early days of PC's, the bios services to talk to the communications port were painful and unreliable, especially at then higher speeds. Not always standard either, so comms/bbs programs could have trouble running on a given platform at all, or even if so - not well. So the "Fossil" driver was created. It was a serial port driver that spoke directly to the underlying hardware (8250 registers) on one side, and presented an efficient standard API to the other side. So it was really created for performance reasons, but it had an additional effect of allowing coms programs to run on hardware that the fossil driver supported and the coms program didn't (as long as the coms program supported the fossil API). Jay West From evan at snarc.net Sat Nov 18 19:36:06 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:36:06 -0500 Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection In-Reply-To: <200611190052.kAJ0qw7Y085827@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000201c70b7b$15104820$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ah, you're right. Everyone was thinking in terms of his surname, but the nickname's relationship to his business m.o. makes more sense. I interviewed him a few times when he was at Divine but I don't recall having any opinion about the man. -----Original Message----- From: Chandra Bajpai [mailto:cbajpai at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 7:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New Museum - The ACP Collection "Flip" Filoposki got that nickname because buys companies and "flips" them. I think he was the CEO of Platinum Software which he later sold and made a ton of money. He was also at the helm of Devine Interventures (the dotcom co) which was one the big disasters of that era. He can't be all that bad if he is a vintage computer guy. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New Museum - The ACP Collection Correct. I don't have the details (yet --- I will soon), but the buyer of Dave's stuff is Andrew Filoposki. He's a widely known dot-com zillionaire and he's just called "Flip" by everyone in IT circles. I have no idea how he got that nickname, but seriously, everyone calls the man Flip. He's been involved in many companies and his current venture and bio is here: http://www.silkroadtech.com/company/leadership/index.htm#flip -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Johnston [mailto:marvin at rain.org] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:30 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection I was searching around and came across the place where the ACP computer collection ended up. The URL is: http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 18 19:43:37 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:43:37 -0600 Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection References: <000201c70b7b$15104820$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <009601c70b7c$23b28220$3e406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 7:36 PM Subject: RE: New Museum - The ACP Collection > Ah, you're right. Everyone was thinking in terms of his surname, but the > nickname's relationship to his business m.o. makes more sense. > > I interviewed him a few times when he was at Divine but I don't recall > having any opinion about the man. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chandra Bajpai [mailto:cbajpai at comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 7:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: New Museum - The ACP Collection > > > "Flip" Filoposki got that nickname because buys companies and "flips" > them. > I think he was the CEO of Platinum Software which he later sold and made a > ton of money. He was also at the helm of Devine Interventures (the dotcom > co) which was one the big disasters of that era. > > He can't be all that bad if he is a vintage computer guy. > > -Chandra > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: New Museum - The ACP Collection > > Correct. I don't have the details (yet --- I will soon), but the buyer of > Dave's stuff is Andrew Filoposki. He's a widely known dot-com > zillionaire > and he's just called "Flip" by everyone in IT circles. I have no idea how > he got that nickname, but seriously, everyone calls the man Flip. He's > been > involved in many companies and his current venture and bio is here: > http://www.silkroadtech.com/company/leadership/index.htm#flip > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin Johnston [mailto:marvin at rain.org] > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:30 PM > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: New Museum - The ACP Collection > > > I was searching around and came across the place where the ACP computer > collection ended up. The URL is: > > http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ > > > What is this Dave's stuff that he purchased? Was there a for sale posting here or was it on ebay? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 18 20:18:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:18:46 -0800 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? In-Reply-To: <010601c70b7a$8a0de2f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <010601c70b7a$8a0de2f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <455F4E86.20699.15B7E3CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2006 at 19:32, Jay West wrote: > Eh, not sure that's quite the right way to look at it, but in the final > analysis, yes. I'd like to think that FOSSIL drivers have their roots in the old not- very-compatible 8-bit Z80/808x world. Comms implementations were about as widely varied as you could get and, stricly speaking, the CP/M CBIOS didn't demand a comm port implementation (although some vendors included the comm function under PTP/PTR). So communications programs such as DSZ and Kermit used customizable overlays. Since DLL's didn't exist back then, you filled out your overlay, then combined with the generic part of the program and wrote a customized executable out. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 20:31:20 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:31:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? Message-ID: <105032.95569.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> OSOIC. Then its not a venue by which say Procomm can be made to work on a Tandy 2000. Maybe terminologies got mixed up. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. Www2.nextag.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 21:40:03 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:40:03 -0600 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? References: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <010601c70b7a$8a0de2f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <455F4E86.20699.15B7E3CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008001c70b8c$68a095b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Chuck wrote... > I'd like to think that FOSSIL drivers have their roots in the old not- > very-compatible 8-bit Z80/808x world. I am not positive, but I don't think Z80's were generally around when Fossil was created by the Fidonet crowd. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 18 21:41:41 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:41:41 -0600 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? References: <105032.95569.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008301c70b8c$a08d99f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> ChrisM wrote... > OSOIC. Then its not a venue by which say Procomm can > be made to work on a Tandy 2000. Maybe terminologies > got mixed up. If you have a version of Procomm that supports using a Fossil driver instead of talking directly to the UART or BIOS, AND you have a Fossil driver for a Tandy 2000, then yes it would make it work :) Jay From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 18 21:44:09 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:44:09 -0800 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? In-Reply-To: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09cc01c70b8d$00fb6c40$0701a8c0@liberator> FOSSIL = Fido Opus Standardized Serial interface Layer I ran OPUS on a dec rainbow, the only thing you needed to do to run Fido or OPUS, or binkleyterm or any other FOSSIL compatible comm./bbs program was the appropriate FOSSIL layer for your hardware. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:10 PM To: talk Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? Do they really allow a pseudo-compatible to utilize vanilla DOS telecom programs? ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 18 21:47:25 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:47:25 -0800 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <09cd01c70b8d$732e58e0$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:51 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? Does anyone remember if there were any BBS systems back in the day that would scan any uploaded files for viruses before saving them in the files section? Replies copied to me directly would be appreciated. Anyone coming up with a solid example wins a prize. -- I ran a Citadel on a dos machine that scanned all uploads for viruses if you had a dos virusscanner installed, you had to configure it for your particular virus scanner (location, command line options, etc) it was part of the post-upload config. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 22:35:29 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:35:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program Message-ID: <20061119043529.55312.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Deskmate is even a possibility, as I believe it had a telecom program built in. but I aint positive. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 18 22:53:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:53:59 -0800 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? In-Reply-To: <008001c70b8c$68a095b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <008001c70b8c$68a095b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <455F72E7.26360.1645FE5B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2006 at 21:40, Jay West wrote: > I am not positive, but I don't think Z80's were generally around when Fossil > was created by the Fidonet crowd. I don't think FOSSIL was ever implemented on a Z80 machine, but when Fidonet got started back in 1984, Z80's were certainly around. I was thinking not only of the model-specific patches to DSZ, but the old Irv Hoff BYE comm program for CP/M. I think one of the old CP/M BBS programs (QBBS and RBBS maybe?) needed BYE to work. i.e., FOSSIL wasn't all that revolutionary. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 00:10:52 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:10:52 -0500 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: <455F12A2.11820.14CDF325@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <455F0A01.13436.14AC41DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <455F12A2.11820.14CDF325@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <455FF56C.7040307@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's some upload virus scanners for various BBS, going way back: > > ULTEST27.ZIP > ANSI320.ZIP > VIREX312.ZIP > VRXBETA2.ZIP (for Maximus BBS) > OFU104.ZIP (for Opus BBS) > FP067.ZIP (for PCBoard) > IPLAB9.ZIP (another for PCBoard) > > I've got lots of others, if you're interested. Myself, I'm looking for the one that worked with RBBS, if you have it. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 00:52:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 22:52:11 -0800 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: <455FF56C.7040307@gmail.com> References: , <455F12A2.11820.14CDF325@cclist.sydex.com>, <455FF56C.7040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <455F8E9B.4011.16B232A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2006 at 1:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Myself, I'm looking for the one that worked with RBBS, if you have it. Take a look here: http://archives.thebbs.org/ra85c.htm There might be a couple of candidates for you. On the other subject of Procomm; didn't the original x86 Procomm include a patch list? And wasn't there one for CP/M 86? It's just too long ago to remember clearly; I apologize. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Nov 18 16:17:02 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 22:17:02 +0000 Subject: separating rare ICs from boards/ was Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <880838.31605.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <880838.31605.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455F865E.7040601@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> (...cracked the bad 4201 open and actually managed >> to find the fault under a >> microscope - a blown trace in a metalization layer >> ... not that I can do >> anything about it.) > > No chance at all? lol Nah. Tony Duell, on the other hand... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Nov 18 19:36:35 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:36:35 +0000 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? In-Reply-To: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <586469.51718.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455FB523.60404@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > Do they really allow a pseudo-compatible to utilize > vanilla DOS telecom programs? > I used to use a fossil driver back in the old BBS days, because the normal DOS serial port driver was a bit "unsuitable". It had lots of braindead stuff like it would block waiting for a character to arrive, while the fossil driver wouldn't. Gordon. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Nov 19 09:18:59 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:18:59 +0100 Subject: separating rare ICs from boards/ was Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <455F865E.7040601@gjcp.net> References: <880838.31605.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <455F865E.7040601@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <456075E3.5080909@bluewin.ch> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Chris M wrote: >> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> (...cracked the bad 4201 open and actually managed >>> to find the fault under a >>> microscope - a blown trace in a metalization layer >>> ... not that I can do >>> anything about it.) >> >> No chance at all? lol > > Nah. Tony Duell, on the other hand... > > Gordon > > It is possible to repair this, it is just not economical. What you need is a focused ion beam machine. Most of bigger IC design centers have them. IIRC somewhere around 600USD/hour operating costs, probably higher by now. Jos Dreesen From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Nov 19 08:43:55 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 14:43:55 +0000 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <454DDE22.32323.F56EB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com>, <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> <454DDE22.32323.F56EB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > n 5 Nov 2006 at 12:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) >> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch >> 3) switch with delay >> 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway > > Do what I do in my garage--use a motion sensor instead of a switch. > Unless you've got a dog or cat wandering around, it works great. Ah, now we had an office with those. Great until it gets dark while you're sitting fairly still coding away. Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 11:14:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:14:45 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, <454DDE22.32323.F56EB2@cclist.sydex.com>, <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45602085.9832.18EC2D3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2006 at 14:43, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ah, now we had an office with those. Great until it gets dark while > you're sitting fairly still coding away. Yeah, I've got one in my garage--great if you remember to stay within view of the sensor and move once in awhile. Fortunately, the one in the garage has a bypass switch, so it can be left "hard on". Otherwise you've got to wave an appendage at it to wake it up. But in a hallway or stairway, it'd probably be nearly ideal--folks tend not to code in those places... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 11:17:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:17:57 -0800 Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program In-Reply-To: <20061119043529.55312.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061119043529.55312.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45602145.31716.18EF1E32@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2006 at 20:35, Chris M wrote: > Deskmate is even a possibility, as I believe it had a > telecom program built in. but I aint positive. If I had an almost-compatible PC that I wanted software for, I'd invest in a set of the SIMTEL MS-DOS CD-ROMs. In the early MS-DOS days, there were several good comms programs and you might even find one with patches for the 2000. Finding things can be a bit of a task in the SIMTEL collection, which is why it's more convenient to use the CD-ROMs than trying to find things online. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Nov 19 11:19:31 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:19:31 -0600 Subject: Going WAAAY OT; Re: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com>, <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> <454DDE22.32323.F56EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45609223.9060200@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> n 5 Nov 2006 at 12:04, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> 1) X10 (quite a bit more than 10 yrs old, controllable by TRS80) >>> 2) train your dog how to work a light switch >>> 3) switch with delay >>> 4) auxiliary lighting in the hallway >> >> Do what I do in my garage--use a motion sensor instead of a switch. >> Unless you've got a dog or cat wandering around, it works great. > > Ah, now we had an office with those. Great until it gets dark while > you're sitting fairly still coding away. I've worked in buildings where they had motion sensor light controls in the men's bathrooms. No big deal if you're at the stand-ups, but if you're sitting in a stall the sensors can't "see" you. One office manager told me "there's a reason we did that." :-) Doc From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 19 13:53:45 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:53:45 +0200 Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program Message-ID: Check the Kermit. _________________________________________________________________ Uutiset ja kasvot uutisten takaa. MSN Search, t?yden palvelun hakukone. http://search.msn.fi From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 19 14:07:03 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> References: <20061103213803.81826.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061105024138.03cf6d08@mail.30below.com>, <20061105115902.P14967@shell.lmi.net> <454DDE22.32323.F56EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <45606DAB.5050202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20061119120444.R68895@shell.lmi.net> > > Do what I do in my garage--use a motion sensor instead of a switch. > > Unless you've got a dog or cat wandering around, it works great. On Sun, 19 Nov 2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ah, now we had an office with those. Great until it gets dark while > you're sitting fairly still coding away. All of the offices in the new college building have those infernal contraptions. Even in the library. NON-ADJUSTABLE at that! Every few minutes, you have to get up and do jumping jacks to get the lights back on. An insidious plot to promote physical fitness. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 19 15:44:40 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:44:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? Message-ID: <200611192144.kAJLieYO023579@keith.ezwind.net> --- Geoff Reed wrote: > FOSSIL = Fido Opus Standardized Serial interface > Layer > Why did they decide to call it that? Did the abbreviation (or whatever you call it) come first, or did they call it Fido Opus and then just expanded on it? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 19 16:20:53 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 14:20:53 -0800 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? In-Reply-To: <200611192144.kAJLieYO023579@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <0e2d01c70c28$f9f756b0$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:45 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? --- Geoff Reed wrote: > FOSSIL = Fido Opus Standardized Serial interface > Layer > Why did they decide to call it that? Did the abbreviation (or whatever you call it) come first, or did they call it Fido Opus and then just expanded on it? ------ I forgot a slash, Fido / Opus Fido was a BBS program, as was Opus. I'm fairly sure that the acronym came at around the same time as the FOSSIL drivers specification was developed. Opus was a Fido/Fidonet compatible BBS. IIRC created because the author(s) wanted some additional features that Fido didn't provide. Opus was widely used in the "point" network, you ran your own local copy of Opus, and arranged an account with an upstream provider, I had 1:343/3.1, StarShip Inconnu, a point node off of 1:343/3 - Glacier Peak Rainbow so I could get the Fidonet feeds I wanted and not have to tie up the single line on Gary's system (Glacier Peak) for extended periods while I read what I wanted to and responded to. Glacier Peak ran on a dec-rainbow, using a US-Robotics modem IIRC. Starship originally ran on my rainbow, but in the end I copied it over to my peecee and loaded the IBM-PC compatible fossil, then later ran it as a external 'door' app off of my Citadel BBS. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 19 16:21:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:21:21 -0600 Subject: vtserver question & mod Message-ID: <000d01c70c29$0d4f4600$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I went ahead and dragged the unix box out to hook up to the 11/34 so I could run vtserver and back up some rl disks I have. My /34 doesn't have ODT built in of course, so I had to keep entering the vtserver bootstrap manually. I got tired of this, since vtserver has an option to download the bootstrap if you have ODT. So I hacked up vtserver to now also support a -ce option along with -odt. If you specify -ce vtserver assumes you have the console emulator running that is provided on the M9312 board and downloads the bootstrap using the syntax expected by it instead of ODT. Timesaver for me. If anyone wants a copy of it, no problem. One slight bug - it requires you to hit enter to start the download and I'm not sure why, fixing that is a project for another day. Come to think of it, I should have vtserver send a carefully crafted command and look at the response from the host, thus distinguishing automatically whether it was ODT or the console emulator it was talking to. That way there would be one command option (-bootstrap perhaps) and it would do the right thing. However, I'd rather not change existing options. Anyways... when I run vtserver and select an input of rl(0,0,0) it says that it failed to get sts. However, it still asks for the output file, and copies the rl image to my pc hard drive. Any idea why the "failed to get sts" message happens? Thanks for any input! J From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 19 17:15:08 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:15:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is this thing? Message-ID: <200611192315.kAJNF6Gc026420@keith.ezwind.net> Unless anyone has any objections, i will put up everyones suggestions onto my webpage until I find out for sure what it is. If anyone wishes to have their suggestions marked down as "anonymous" then also let me know. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 19 17:24:35 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:24:35 -0500 Subject: Stupid IMSAI question Message-ID: <005a01c70c31$e045f380$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Ok, I admit, I probably should know this by now, but did an IMSAI-specific version of BASIC exist that can be loaded by paper tape? I have all of the Altair BASICs in tape format for my 8800b, but I have an IMSAI too and I've spent so much time fiddling with the floppy system (which still doesn't work) that I've never really played with it. The IMSAI I have as a Z80 CPU and 48k but I think I have an original 8080 card for it somewhere. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 18:28:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:28:56 -0800 Subject: has anyone ever utilized a fossil driver? In-Reply-To: <0e2d01c70c28$f9f756b0$0701a8c0@liberator> References: <200611192144.kAJLieYO023579@keith.ezwind.net>, <0e2d01c70c28$f9f756b0$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <45608648.22746.1A79B28D@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2006 at 14:20, Geoff Reed wrote: > Why did they decide to call it that? Did the > abbreviation (or whatever you call it) come > first, or did they call it Fido Opus and then > just expanded on it? Fido-Opus-SEAdog Standard Interface Layer. IIRC SEAdog was an email system from System Enhancement Associates (they of ARC) and the lawsuit against Phil Katz. Although the drivers are called "FOSSIL" drivers, they work with a number of BBS software packages. Cheers, Chuck From Steve at oceanrobots.net Sun Nov 19 20:05:56 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:05:56 -0500 Subject: Stupid IMSAI question In-Reply-To: <005a01c70c31$e045f380$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <005a01c70c31$e045f380$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <45610D84.6040602@oceanrobots.net> Hi, The IMSAI I purchased in 1975 or 1976 had a paper tape distribution of BASIC sent from IMSAI a couple of months after I received the machine. Steve Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > > > Ok, I admit, I probably should know this by now, but did an >IMSAI-specific version of BASIC exist that can be loaded by paper tape? I >have all of the Altair BASICs in tape format for my 8800b, but I have an >IMSAI too and I've spent so much time fiddling with the floppy system (which >still doesn't work) that I've never really played with it. The IMSAI I have >as a Z80 CPU and 48k but I think I have an original 8080 card for it >somewhere. > > > > Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > >Rich Cini > >Collector of classic computers > >Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > >Web site: >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > >Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > >/***************************************************/ > > > > > From evan at snarc.net Sun Nov 19 20:35:40 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:35:40 -0500 Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? Message-ID: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> http://www.altairkit.com/ Looks quite different from other modern Altair things. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 19 21:21:12 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:21:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: 74s472 proms Message-ID: Does anyone here know a good source for 74s472 proms for a lower price than what Jameco charges ($12 apiece)? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 19 21:25:56 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? In-Reply-To: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2006, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://www.altairkit.com/ > > Looks quite different from other modern Altair things. Mmmm... yes. Is it just me or has there been a big resurgance of solder-it-yourself kits lately? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 21:29:37 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:29:37 -0500 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? Message-ID: Should people just list the reserved price as the start price? I see auctions with reserved price often get 0 bid. This is something I don't understand. In what situation would this thing be useful? (I saw the vax 4000 100 auction and got this question) vax, 9000 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 19 21:33:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:33:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program Message-ID: <887253.81159.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> can you elaborate a little? To my knowledge, Kermit is a protocol or set of them. I know Im a little dull occasionally... --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Check the Kermit. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Uutiset ja kasvot uutisten takaa. MSN Search, t?yden palvelun hakukone. > http://search.msn.fi > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. Www2.nextag.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 19 21:43:26 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whats the point of auction with reserved price? Message-ID: <468027.41550.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> come here lil crazed bidder...just a little further...o come on you can do better than that LOL LOL. Remember the frog...they didnt toss him in boiling water. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 21:48:04 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:48:04 -0500 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45612574.1050709@gmail.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > Should people just list the reserved price as the start price? I see > auctions with reserved price often get 0 bid. This is something I don't > understand. In what situation would this thing be useful? > > (I saw the vax 4000 100 auction and got this question) Yes. Don't bother with a reserve price. I make it a personal policy not to bid on reserve auctions that haven't yet met reserve. It's usually too much of a PITA. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 19 22:40:54 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:40:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: flipchip clone? Message-ID: Some time ago, someone proposed making pdp8-style flip chips from surface-mount components. Here's a project that sort of does that: http://people.freenet.de/dieter.02/mt15.htm -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vrs at msn.com Sun Nov 19 23:16:48 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:16:48 -0800 Subject: flipchip clone? References: Message-ID: > Some time ago, someone proposed making pdp8-style flip chips from > surface-mount components. Here's a project that sort of does that: > > http://people.freenet.de/dieter.02/mt15.htm That is seriously awesome! Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 23:34:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:34:46 -0800 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4560CDF6.12474.1B91AE82@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2006 at 22:29, 9000 VAX wrote: > Should people just list the reserved price as the start price? I see > auctions with reserved price often get 0 bid. This is something I don't > understand. In what situation would this thing be useful? Like my momma always said, "It never hurts to ask". Many sellers (myself included) will readily divulge the reserve price if asked. AFAIK, it's not against eBay rules. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 19 23:35:54 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:35:54 -0800 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "9000 VAX" > >Should people just list the reserved price as the start price? I see >auctions with reserved price often get 0 bid. This is something I don't >understand. In what situation would this thing be useful? > >(I saw the vax 4000 100 auction and got this question) > >vax, 9000 Hi Some people want to price an item ( see what people are willing to pay ). Some people have another buyer that will meet that price. Some believe they have a valuable item. I rarely bid on a reserve item unless I really want it. Sellers often miss the fact that if they start the auction at a lower price, they get several people interested in the item. These people will often start bidding against each other. With a reserve, many will quite early, even if they are only a few dollors away from the reserve. They just get frustrated. Sellers also should not start there titles with things like "vintage" or "rare". The people that will most likely pay a good price already know how rare an item is and what they should bid for it. Those two adjectives rarely cause a bidder to bid higher and often even cause the knowledgeable bidder to miss seeing the auction ( not good for the seller ). Many have a lot to scan and wasted words, like these that are commonly used, just hide the actual item. It is hard enough to scan hunderds of items without all the noise. I doubt anyone bids on an iten because someone said it was rare. I recently picked up a Olivetti M20 for less then $130, including shipping because it was poorly advertised. If the seller had stated that it was a Z8000 machine he may have gotten better response. It just looked like any other PC of that age. As I recall, the title started with something like "vintage". I'd have not seen it if it wasn't for the fact that I was doing searches for Olivetti's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 19 23:43:04 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:43:04 -0800 Subject: separating rare ICs from boards/ was Re: Need Docs for XT RAM Board... In-Reply-To: <456075E3.5080909@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: >From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>Chris M wrote: >>>--- Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>>> (...cracked the bad 4201 open and actually managed >>>>to find the fault under a >>>>microscope - a blown trace in a metalization layer >>>>... not that I can do >>>>anything about it.) >>> >>> No chance at all? lol >> >>Nah. Tony Duell, on the other hand... >> >>Gordon >> >> >It is possible to repair this, it is just not economical. >What you need is a focused ion beam machine. >Most of bigger IC design centers have them. >IIRC somewhere around 600USD/hour operating costs, probably higher by now. > Jos Dreesen > Hi Even if you replace the trace, it may still not work. The trace most likely blew because a transistor shorted. Unless they put a few extra transistors on the die, it would be hopeless. Most current uP's have extra gates and flops but these are intended for last minute mask changes that always seem to happen. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version.?Join now. http://ideas.live.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 00:00:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:00:48 -0800 Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? In-Reply-To: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4560D410.16206.1BA9858A@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2006 at 21:35, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://www.altairkit.com/ > > Looks quite different from other modern Altair things. The outside looks very cool and pretty accurate, though I'm not entirely sure if the number of connector punchouts on the rear panel is correct.. But the solder-masked boards are wrong, at least for the vintage Altair that I own(no masking, just tinned traces). OTOH, the crappy stranded white wire to connect the CPU board to the front panel is a nice "authentic" touch. I envied the guys with Imsai boxes... Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 00:59:27 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 01:59:27 -0500 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are not thinking like a successful seller. Some comments... > Sellers often miss the fact that if they start the auction at > a lower price, they get several people interested in the item. > These people will often start bidding against each other. There are plenty of times, especially with something that is either really obscure (low demand due to not many potential buyers) or fairly common (commodity items) when starting an auction too low ends up in failure. Sure, two people can get into a bidding war, but often the bidding war is just a bunch of smoke if one or more of the players are bottom feeders. There are plenty of bottom feeders at any auction, live or online. > With a reserve, many will quite early, even if they are only > a few dollors away from the reserve. When reserves are not met, no harm done to the seller. A reserve makes a lot of sense when an item does have a market, and it is known that there are people willing to pay a good price, but are not always in the market. If the seller can stand having things not reach auction, but eventually will at a good price - all the better. It is something that many people have to learn when selling - that a string of failures will often end up all the better. > They just get frustrated. But the item sticks in their minds. Collectors tend to forget about many human emotions when the desire to have something overtakes the rest. Often the frustration dies out, and a seller starts to lust for the thing that caused all the problems in the first place. When it comes to higher ticket items, it is often wise to set a high reserve, expecting it not to get hit, just to let people know the item is in the market. This will give many more sellers time to scrape money together for the more realistic sale. > Sellers also should not start there titles with things like > "vintage" or "rare". The people that will most likely pay a > good price already know how rare an item is and what they > should bid for it. Some of these words make sense (not the variations on LOOK - this I do not understand). Sure, all the jaded Ebay buyers ignore or filter out such words, but the new potential buyers often do not. Capturing the attention to these new buyers, often people just getting into collecting, is very important for the long term health of a seller. They often become very loyal customers. > I doubt anyone > bids on an iten because someone said it was rare. People do indeed search for some of these common words if they are new to Ebay or a specific field of collecting. There is a point to many of the apparently wasteful or silly things that Ebay sellers do. Those things get positive results. If the results were insignificant or negative, then experienced sellers would not do them. -- Will From jrr at flippers.com Sun Nov 19 15:35:31 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:35:31 -0800 Subject: WTD: MOS 6545-1 (or Motorola's MC6845) In-Reply-To: <455F668A.20101@gjcp.net> References: <455C9D06.5050004@iais.fraunhofer.de>, <20061116214430.95443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <455C7114.6917.A86EB71@cclist.sydex.com> <455F668A.20101@gjcp.net> Message-ID: At 8:01 PM +0000 11/18/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 16 Nov 2006 at 13:44, Chris M wrote: >> >>> Or desolder it from a CGA card or any other IBM >>>compatible with built in video. I recommend a cool >>>water wave tank for the process. >> >>You know, when desoldering a chip such as a 40-pin DIP like the >>6545, I've never gotten the chip body anywhere near being too hot >>to touch. As a matter of fact, I'd worry that the water would >>conduct too much heat away from the chip to allow the PCB solder to >>melt quickly. > >I've always found that if the board isn't important but the chip is, >a quick blast with the hot-air paint stripper will desolder it quite >well. > >Often you can just pull the chip out with your fingers, because it >stays fairly cool. If it really doesn't want to come out, tap it on >a piece of wood and it will drop out. > >Gordon. I've used a propane torch to preheat the board, then whack it solder side down to blow the solder off, then flip over and whack on the component side to remove most of the ICs. Not the best, but it IS fast and usually results in recoverable ICs. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From flequi at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 17:24:57 2006 From: flequi at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fernando_Del=EDa?=) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:24:57 -0300 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter Message-ID: <002b01c70c32$0df38630$04000100@intel915> Yo tengo los drivers originales de la placa pertec PCTD-III y la unidad de cinta Qualstar 1260. Si aun le interesa se los puedo enviar por e-mail Tengo tambi?n documentacion impresa que puedo escanear para enviarla. Saludos Fernando From fa475919 at skynet.be Sun Nov 19 20:37:08 2006 From: fa475919 at skynet.be (Stijn Bagin) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 03:37:08 +0100 Subject: sanyo lat-200a Message-ID: <000601c70c4c$c694b230$0201a8c0@digit> Anyway (thanks for your response btw), the 50-pins connector appears to be a standard SCSI port, at least that is what I discovered after measuring the 'ground' pin layout and comparing it with a standard 50pin - SCSI datasheet... The original Harddrive was a full size 3,5 inch model from a brand named Kyosho (the hardware is dated 1985 so I don't think 2,5 inch was around back then...) It only had a 26pin data strip connector (no power connector) (It's broken btw) which was hooked up to a little controller board (loose hanging in between boards) from SMS OMTI ( a famous name that is often found in accordance with SCSI drives and other datastorage devices (or so I read here and there)) I'm familiar with the 44 pin IDE layout you describe in your message and I regret that probably isn't the setup in this little bugger. After some reading on the SMS OMTI board, i read somewhere that smaller sized 50-pin SCSI drives can indeed draw power from the datastrip connector... whether this could work in my setup is unknown and I will not be able to try since I do not have such a drive... I've also tried to add a standard ISA 16bit IDE controllercard, but with no luck. The BIOS simply doesn't allow other HD controllers other than it's own... The bios is fairly limited and what little motherboard-jumpers there are, come with no description whatsoever. STUCK... i guess From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 20 02:19:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:19:37 +0000 Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20/11/06 03:25, "David Griffith" wrote: > On Sun, 19 Nov 2006, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> http://www.altairkit.com/ >> >> Looks quite different from other modern Altair things. > > Mmmm... yes. Is it just me or has there been a big resurgance of > solder-it-yourself kits lately? I'm most impressed with that kit, doubly so that it seems to have the backing of MITS. If more people can start to learn how 'proper' computers work then the more new kits the better. Next: resurgence of the RadioShack 300-in-1 electronics kits :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aserlanger at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 06:35:20 2006 From: aserlanger at earthlink.net (aserlanger at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:35:20 -0500 Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? In-Reply-To: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001d01c70ca0$57e38e20$0208a8c0@hpmpc01> Yeah - I note Todd Fischer had input to this product, so "good luck" ever seeing it. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:36 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? http://www.altairkit.com/ Looks quite different from other modern Altair things. From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Nov 20 08:48:21 2006 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:48:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program Message-ID: On my DEC Rainbow, I exclusively use BinkleyTerm as it can function as a terminal quite well using the appropriate FOSSIL driver. It supports Xmodem and Zmodem at the least, I believe. Anyway, if you need a T2K FOSSIL, try: http://www.sentry.org/%7Etrev/opus/173files.html#fossil I've made a copy of BinkleyTerm v2.40 (the last version that supports FOSSILs on non-standard hardware) available at: http://approximatrix.com/downloads/legacy-ms-dos-support-files/communications/bexe_240.zip/view I can't seem to find the related documentation archive right now, but I'm sure I have it at home. Hope this helps! Jeff Armstrong jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 20 08:53:55 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:53:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > Should people just list the reserved price as the start price? I see > auctions with reserved price often get 0 bid. This is something I don't > understand. In what situation would this thing be useful? > > (I saw the vax 4000 100 auction and got this question) As a buyer, I tend to pass over most reserve listings unless I happen to know what the reserve is and its not more than I'm willing to pay. For most of the items I sell, I don't bother with a reserve. For the smaller, less expensive items, I start them at a price I can live with (be it my cost or a little less than what I've sold them for in the past etc). For the more expensive items, I generally set a realistic about for the starting bid. I've gotten a few snide messages from people who thought my price was too high (especially on some of the high end tooling I've sold off), but when I've already been selling identical, brand new units at that price, why would I sell them for less? If they don't like it, they can always buy elsewhere at retail prices :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 20 09:06:23 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 09:06:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > Some people want to price an item ( see what people are willing to pay > ). Some people have another buyer that will meet that price. Some > believe they have a valuable item. With as picky and jaded as many buyers have gotten over time, I honestly don't see how a seller would think they'd get a fair market evaluation with a reserve price. You are far better off just watching the market for several months. > I rarely bid on a reserve item unless I really want it. Sellers often > miss the fact that if they start the auction at a lower price, they get > several people interested in the item. These people will often start > bidding against each other. With a reserve, many will quite early, even > if they are only a few dollors away from the reserve. They just get > frustrated. >From the selling side, its a gamble. Sometimes those items won't go high, sometimes they will. For some of the tooling I use, I monitor and sometimes buy the stuff that is going for far too little. Often I keep the item for my own use, but sometimes I'll resell it later, it just depends on if its something I really need or not. Heck, a good photo and well written listing can make a huge difference in the selling price of an item. Professional buyers are also pretty good at spotting a copy and paste listings. > Sellers also should not start there titles with things like "vintage" or > "rare". The people that will most likely pay a good price already know > how rare an item is and what they should bid for it. Those two > adjectives rarely cause a bidder to bid higher and often even cause the > knowledgeable bidder to miss seeing the auction ( not good for the > seller ). Many have a lot to scan and wasted words, like these that are > commonly used, just hide the actual item. It is hard enough to scan > hunderds of items without all the noise. I doubt anyone bids on an iten > because someone said it was rare. As both a buyer and seller, things like 'rare' and 'LQQK' really get on my nerves. With the listings I create, I usually have a hard time not going over the character limit (55 currently) as it is when I'm using *good* keywords. I dunno why sellers waste all those characters for words that won't really help sell something. > I recently picked up a Olivetti M20 for less then $130, including > shipping because it was poorly advertised. If the seller had stated that > it was a Z8000 machine he may have gotten better response. It just > looked like any other PC of that age. As I recall, the title started > with something like "vintage". I'd have not seen it if it wasn't for the > fact that I was doing searches for Olivetti's. Yikes...most of that must have been the shipping too, as those things aren't exactly lightweight :) -Toth From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 20 09:17:02 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:17:02 -0800 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "William Donzelli" ---snip--- > >People do indeed search for some of these common words if they are new >to Ebay or a specific field of collecting. > >There is a point to many of the apparently wasteful or silly things >that Ebay sellers do. Those things get positive results. If the >results were insignificant or negative, then experienced sellers would >not do them. Hi How does the seller know that if he could have had 15 bidders vrs 3 bidders. There is no feedback that the seller might be aware of. I find it difficult to believe that even an inexperienced buyer would be looking for the words vintage when thousands of these will come up. One might put such into there text but in the title line it is just waste valuable text space. This might be useful if there were only one or two others, making this title page unique but not when they are on every item. As for reserves, you are right that the right buyer may not be looking at the time. That is why they have starting prices. A seller that is really intending to sell an item might start the price at about 75% of the expected price. That way, if he only gets one bottom feeder, no big loss. Other wise, he has captured several people that do know what the item is worth. It is just like fishing, using too big of a hook catches no fish and not using enough bate attracts few fish.( Sorry about the comparision of buyer to fish ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 20 09:24:46 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 09:24:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, William Donzelli wrote: > There are plenty of times, especially with something that is either > really obscure (low demand due to not many potential buyers) or fairly > common (commodity items) when starting an auction too low ends up in > failure. Sure, two people can get into a bidding war, but often the > bidding war is just a bunch of smoke if one or more of the players are > bottom feeders. There are plenty of bottom feeders at any auction, live > or online. True. This is why I tend to prefer a realistic starting bid for my items. Take the M100 cables I made. They cost me about $12 to make, just in parts. I started one at $15, so even if it sells for the starting amount, I'm not going to be at a loss, even after eBay and Paypal both deduct their fees. Now that doesn't really cover the labor, and the tools to make it were also expensive (I can't afford cheap tools...), but in this *particular* case, I'm just making them as a hobby and as a service to other M100 owners. (And on that note, if anyone on the list needs a longer cable or a different ribbon cable made, drop me an email.) >> With a reserve, many will quite early, even if they are only a few >> dollors away from the reserve. > > When reserves are not met, no harm done to the seller. A reserve makes a > lot of sense when an item does have a market, and it is known that there > are people willing to pay a good price, but are not always in the > market. If the seller can stand having things not reach auction, but > eventually will at a good price - all the better. It is something that > many people have to learn when selling - that a string of failures will > often end up all the better. After awhile though, the seller should get tired of paying the listing and reserve fees if the item isn't selling :) >> They just get frustrated. > > But the item sticks in their minds. Collectors tend to forget about many > human emotions when the desire to have something overtakes the rest. > Often the frustration dies out, and a seller starts to lust for the > thing that caused all the problems in the first place. When it comes to > higher ticket items, it is often wise to set a high reserve, expecting > it not to get hit, just to let people know the item is in the market. > This will give many more sellers time to scrape money together for the > more realistic sale. ...or the buyer will move on to the next one, possibly paying more for one that doesn't have a reserve. I've seen it go down both ways. >> Sellers also should not start there titles with things like "vintage" >> or "rare". The people that will most likely pay a good price already >> know how rare an item is and what they should bid for it. > > Some of these words make sense (not the variations on LOOK - this I do > not understand). Sure, all the jaded Ebay buyers ignore or filter out > such words, but the new potential buyers often do not. Capturing the > attention to these new buyers, often people just getting into > collecting, is very important for the long term health of a seller. They > often become very loyal customers. I tend to filter and exclude some of the silly keywords myself as I find the majority of those listings are generally not worth my time. I'd say 9 times our of 10 or better, the seller is just trying to hype something up for various reasons. >> I doubt anyone bids on an iten because someone said it was rare. > > People do indeed search for some of these common words if they are new > to Ebay or a specific field of collecting. > > There is a point to many of the apparently wasteful or silly things that > Ebay sellers do. Those things get positive results. If the results were > insignificant or negative, then experienced sellers would not do them. I've experimented with different techniques over the years myself. For some items, the title in all caps does get more attention. For others, it just annoys bidders. Offering free shipping can also help sell items, especially the small stuff that can go USPS. -Toth From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 20 09:43:48 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:43:48 -0800 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? Message-ID: <4561CD34.1AE7E8E5@rain.org> > From: "William Donzelli" > > > I doubt anyone > > bids on an iten because someone said it was rare. > > People do indeed search for some of these common words if they are new > to Ebay or a specific field of collecting. I put up a limited gold edition of Scott Adams Adventures on ebay (Item number: 110057014303) that I *almost* put "RARE" in the title, but I refrained. But I couldn't help myself in the description. I *really* dislike seeing "rare" in a title because of all the jokers who haven't a clue what rare might mean. Most of them merely expose their limited universe for the rest of the world to see. From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 20 05:45:45 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:45:45 -0500 Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? References: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <005a01c70c99$6a730180$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > http://www.altairkit.com/ > > Looks quite different from other modern Altair things. > This cracked me up, quoting from the site: "Your web page stinks!" "Yeah, and it took me forever to toggle in all these characters! ; ) " John From Alan.Needham at centrica.com Mon Nov 20 07:27:24 2006 From: Alan.Needham at centrica.com (Needham, Alan) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:27:24 -0000 Subject: Thurlby LA160 Logic analyser Message-ID: Daniel, I just stumbled across your posting of LA160 software - I would love a copy if we can arrange it ? As per my previous LA160 postings you can contact me directly on ... alan(dot)needham(at)humberpower. co. uk -- spoiled to deter spambots _____________________________________________________________________ The information contained in or attached to this email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are not authorised to and must not disclose, copy, distribute, or retain this message or any part of it. It may contain information which is confidential and/or covered by legal professional or other privilege (or other rules or laws with similar effect in jurisdictions outside England and Wales). The views expressed in this email are not necessarily the views of Centrica plc, and the company, its directors, officers or employees make no representation or accept any liability for its accuracy or completeness unless expressly stated to the contrary. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 10:08:03 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:08:03 -0500 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > How does the seller know that if he could have had 15 bidders vrs 3 bidders. > There is no feedback that the seller might be aware of. Experience. Knowing the market. Once a seller gets to know the usual bunch of buyers, more things become apparent thru the talk in the gravevine. The dealers have ears. > I find it difficult > to > believe that even an inexperienced buyer would be looking for the words > vintage when thousands of these will come up. If an inexperience buyer were to first search for "Computer", think of all the hits then. Or even "Apple" (popular amongst the newer collectors). It is obvious in these cases that some of those useless words start to become useful. Beginners just getting into a field tend not to look for specific items, but do blanket searches. > As for reserves, you are right that the right buyer may not be looking at > the > time. That is why they have starting prices. A seller that is really > intending to > sell an item might start the price at about 75% of the expected price. This does not work well. Starting bids that are too high attract very few bids, because buyers in general want a bargain (especially the dealers). This is true for the live auction scene as well. Auctioneers will always start out high, but nearly always quickly dip down to something far below market value. They know that they can not expect much action if the starting bid is true market value. Ebay has no easy way to lower starting bid places like this, so it only makes sense to start reasonably low. There are, of course, sellers that always start very high, and expect to have many lots that do not sell. This takes nerves of steel, as the income stream tends to be very erratic. It works well if the seller can afford to have many bad weeks. > It is just like fishing, using too big of a hook catches no fish and not > using enough bate attracts few fish.( Sorry about the comparision of > buyer to fish ). There are plenty of big fish that come along that can take the hook. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 10:41:19 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:41:19 -0500 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > After awhile though, the seller should get tired of paying the listing and > reserve fees if the item isn't selling :) Cost of business. So what if you wasted fifty dollars on dud auctions if you realize one hundred dollars more than market value. > ...or the buyer will move on to the next one, possibly paying more for one > that doesn't have a reserve. I've seen it go down both ways. Yes, but often it is a long time between the next one. This is why reserve auctions are geared towards rarer or higher ticket items. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 11:40:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 09:40:11 -0800 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: <002b01c70c32$0df38630$04000100@intel915> References: <002b01c70c32$0df38630$04000100@intel915> Message-ID: <456177FB.18875.1E29CDF4@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2006 at 20:24, Fernando Del?a wrote: > Yo tengo los drivers originales de la placa pertec PCTD-III y la unidad de cinta Qualstar 1260. Si aun le interesa se los puedo enviar por e-mail > Tengo tambi?n documentacion impresa que puedo escanear para enviarla. Thank you for the kind offer! I no longer have the PCTD card, but I am willing to post the driver software for it on Driverguide and hold it in my own archives, as there may be other people still looking for it. Thanks again, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 20 12:25:01 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:25:01 -0500 Subject: Stupid IMSAI question In-Reply-To: <200611201622.kAKGMRcF035985@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003c01c70cd1$31580a20$6601a8c0@barry> Rich, I'm not sure what "Imsai Specific" means in this context, but Imsai did sell their own 8k Basic that originally came on paper tape (I think that there may have been a 4K version also). Amazingly, it came with a full assembler output source code listing. The only thing about it that was "Imsai specific" was that it's load and save commands were customized for the cassette tape port on an IMSAI MIO card. I have the hard copy listing, and as a consequence of your question, I've just put it into the scanner and will have a PDF file later today. Now if someone wants to key it in, I'll send them the PDF file. The listing is 113 pages long. I do not have the paper tape object code. The version that I have is 1.4 from 5/12/1977. Tell me about the disk system that you can't get working, I have pretty extensive knowledge of some of the Imsai disk systems. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 12:34:31 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:34:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: vtserver question & mod Message-ID: <19805440.1164047671736.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Jay West said: > >I went ahead and dragged the unix box out to hook up to the 11/34 so I could >run vtserver and back up some rl disks I have. > >My /34 doesn't have ODT built in of course, so I had to keep entering the >vtserver bootstrap manually. I got tired of this, since vtserver has an >option to download the bootstrap if you have ODT. So I hacked up vtserver to >now also support a -ce option along with -odt. If you specify -ce vtserver >assumes you have the console emulator running that is provided on the M9312 >board and downloads the bootstrap using the syntax expected by it instead of >ODT. Timesaver for me. If anyone wants a copy of it, no problem. One slight >bug - it requires you to hit enter to start the download and I'm not sure >why, fixing that is a project for another day. > >Come to think of it, I should have vtserver send a carefully crafted command >and look at the response from the host, thus distinguishing automatically >whether it was ODT or the console emulator it was talking to. That way there >would be one command option (-bootstrap perhaps) and it would do the right >thing. However, I'd rather not change existing options. > >Anyways... when I run vtserver and select an input of rl(0,0,0) it says that >it failed to get sts. However, it still asks for the output file, and copies >the rl image to my pc hard drive. Any idea why the "failed to get sts" >message happens? > >Thanks for any input! > >J > Jay, I have a version of VTServer that works with the M9312 console emulator, and it runs in Windows (well, in a DOS box). I think I got mine from Fred Van Kempen, who crafted a special version for me. I have used it on an 11/34 and an 11/40 and have not had any problems. I've copied RK05, RL01, and RL02 pack images to and from the PDP-11. Would you like a copy of my version of VTServer? If so, I can email it to you or I can put it on my web site (http://www.woffordwitch.com) where it can be downloaded. Ashley From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Nov 20 12:41:53 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:41:53 -0600 Subject: vtserver question & mod In-Reply-To: <19805440.1164047671736.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19805440.1164047671736.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4561F6F1.2050006@mdrconsult.com> Ashley Carder wrote: > I have a version of VTServer that works with the M9312 console > emulator, and it runs in Windows (well, in a DOS box). I think I > got mine from Fred Van Kempen, who crafted a special version > for me. I have used it on an 11/34 and an 11/40 and have not > had any problems. I've copied RK05, RL01, and RL02 pack > images to and from the PDP-11. Would you like a copy of my > version of VTServer? If so, I can email it to you or I can put it > on my web site (http://www.woffordwitch.com) where it can be > downloaded. Whatever happened to the VTServer v3 project? There were some upcoming features (like >32MB transfers) that I was eagerly awaiting. Doc From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 12:51:42 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:51:42 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: vtserver question & mod Message-ID: <18721337.1164048702449.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Ashley Carder wrote: >> I have a version of VTServer that works with the M9312 console >> emulator, and it runs in Windows (well, in a DOS box). I think I >> got mine from Fred Van Kempen, who crafted a special version >> for me. I have used it on an 11/34 and an 11/40 and have not >> had any problems. I've copied RK05, RL01, and RL02 pack >> images to and from the PDP-11. Would you like a copy of my >> version of VTServer? If so, I can email it to you or I can put it >> on my web site (http://www.woffordwitch.com) where it can be >> downloaded. > > Whatever happened to the VTServer v3 project? There were some >upcoming features (like >32MB transfers) that I was eagerly awaiting. > > > Doc I think that my version is about 2 1/2 years old. It has also been almost that long since I've heard from Fred, so I have not heard of any VTServer news since mid-to-late 2004. Ashley From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 12:58:58 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:58:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: 11/34 done Message-ID: <7750650.1164049139909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Picture is at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/1134.jpg > >11/34A, 128kw, RL01, RL02, DSD440. > >I still need to clean the side panels up, but it's assembled and up and >running RT11 :) > >Back to that /44 I guess... just have to get working drives on it. Then >hopefully back to the /45. > >Jay > Jay, that's a great looking system! Did you use any of the pieces/parts you got from me on that system? You have just inspired me. I think over the holidays I will finish up a working 11/40 or 11/70 system to put in my office at work. I have one of each ready, but I just need to clean up the side panels and touch up the legs, clean up the black cover panels, etc. Those other guys with all their golfing paraphernalia all over their offices will have nothing on me once I have a real blinkenlights system sitting in the corner of my office. :-) Ashley From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 20 13:17:11 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:17:11 +0200 Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program Message-ID: >From Chris M Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:33:23 -0800 (PST) >can you elaborate a little? To my knowledge, Kermit is >a protocol or set of them. I know Im a little dull >occasionally... >--- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >wrote: >>Check the Kermit. Kermit might be the most ported software. Check MS-Dos kermit program. It includes a vt100 compatible terminal emulator (and scripting, file transfer, protocol etc) Check older versions too, there might be a "general" MS-Dos version or even tandy specifics?. Nothing sure though. Kermit was once freeware but gone commercial now I think. BR, Matti _________________________________________________________________ Uutiset ja kasvot uutisten takaa. MSN Search, t?yden palvelun hakukone. http://search.msn.fi From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 20 13:43:41 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:43:41 -0600 Subject: vtserver question & mod References: <19805440.1164047671736.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00f901c70cdc$2fd42840$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ashley wrote.... > I have a version of VTServer that works with the M9312 console > emulator, and it runs in Windows (well, in a DOS box). How reliably does it work in a DOS window under XP I wonder? The old (current) version of Vtserver also is documented to run in a DOS box under windows, but it does not do so well... I saw a document somewhere basically acknowledging that it often doesn't run right under windows. It's not a flakyness, it's a situation where for those it works for, it works all the time for. Anyways, maybe the one Fred gave you fixed that? > I think I > got mine from Fred Van Kempen, who crafted a special version > for me. I have used it on an 11/34 and an 11/40 and have not > had any problems. I think a lot of people have been waiting anxiously for Fred to release the new version. I wasn't aware of a development snapshot and would be happy to look at it :) > Would you like a copy of my > version of VTServer? If so, I can email it to you or I can put it > on my web site (http://www.woffordwitch.com) where it can be > downloaded. I'd suggest you check with Fred before putting it up publicly, he may have intented not to have a "prerelease" get out and get widespread distribution. Just a thought. Someone also mentioned that vtserver wouldn't work on a /44 because of the binary nature of the transfer (and specifically ^P in a datastream activating the console). Couldn't the copy program (and the vtserver "server" part) easily be modified to "escape" control-P with a lead in character, two leadin's representing the actual character.. then a ^P would never be transferred "in the clear". Just a thought. Maybe Fred's already done that in your version too ;) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 20 13:51:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:51:47 -0600 Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") References: <7750650.1164049139909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ashley wrote... > Jay, that's a great looking system! Did you use any of the pieces/parts > you got from me on that system? Humm I don't recall you sending me any parts for the /34. I know you sent me a few cabinet parts and few memory boards to help with my /45 though. I'm probably forgetting something and I apologize if so! > ... but I just need to clean up the side panels and > touch up the legs, clean up the black cover panels, etc. I was going to take a RL02 front panel or dec corp cab filler panel in to a hardware store and have them match the paint color exactly, and get a small can of the correct mix. Or does an industry standard color coding system exist, and these magic numbers are known by a listmember so I can just get the color already? I would really like to get an exact match for the "white" on the front of the /34 & RL02, the "grey" on the H960 side panel, and the "black" on the H960 anti-tip feet. Not just the right color but the right type of paint and finish. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 20 13:54:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:54:21 -0600 Subject: vtserver question & mod References: <19805440.1164047671736.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <00f901c70cdc$2fd42840$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <010601c70cdd$b10d40d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Another point... I'm wondering if vtserver "v3?" will have an option to not overlay the last track on an RL02 (and thus writing over the badspot list). Jay From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 13:54:47 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:54:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: vtserver question & mod Message-ID: <2996012.1164052488765.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> I have a version of VTServer that works with the M9312 console >> emulator, and it runs in Windows (well, in a DOS box). >How reliably does it work in a DOS window under XP I wonder? The old >(current) version of Vtserver also is documented to run in a DOS box under >windows, but it does not do so well... I saw a document somewhere basically >acknowledging that it often doesn't run right under windows. It's not a >flakyness, it's a situation where for those it works for, it works all the >time for. Anyways, maybe the one Fred gave you fixed that? It always worked perfectly for me. I think this was a version that he had enhanced and tested and had been using himself. I think I used it under both Windows 2000 and XP. Ashley From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 14:07:53 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:07:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") Message-ID: <14932276.1164053274543.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Ashley wrote... >> Jay, that's a great looking system! Did you use any of the pieces/parts >> you got from me on that system? >Humm I don't recall you sending me any parts for the /34. I know you sent me >a few cabinet parts and few memory boards to help with my /45 though. I'm >probably forgetting something and I apologize if so! I think the stuff I sent you was when you were working on the 11/45. > >> ... but I just need to clean up the side panels and >> touch up the legs, clean up the black cover panels, etc. >I was going to take a RL02 front panel or dec corp cab filler panel in to a >hardware store and have them match the paint color exactly, and get a small >can of the correct mix. Or does an industry standard color coding system >exist, and these magic numbers are known by a listmember so I can just get >the color already? I would really like to get an exact match for the "white" >on the front of the /34 & RL02, the "grey" on the H960 side panel, and the >"black" on the H960 anti-tip feet. Not just the right color but the right >type of paint and finish. >Jay I believe there is a Dec Grey standard color. Somebody I have dealt with before knows where to get it or how to produce it. Maybe it is the guy who is JCMParts on eBay. Seems like he's the one who told me that he refurbished Dec terminals, etc, to looks just like factory originals with the origianal paint colors. I'll have to dig through my thousands of PDP emails tonight and see who gave me that info. Also, I have sets of Dec H960 side panels that are two different colors. Some sets are more of a greyish color and others are more of a creamy color. Ashley From kth at srv.net Mon Nov 20 14:12:15 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:12:15 -0700 Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45620C1F.1080706@srv.net> Matti Nummi wrote: >> From Chris M Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:33:23 -0800 >> (PST) >> can you elaborate a little? To my knowledge, Kermit is >> a protocol or set of them. I know Im a little dull >> occasionally... >> --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> wrote: >> >>> Check the Kermit. >> > Kermit might be the most ported software. > Check MS-Dos kermit program. > It includes a vt100 compatible terminal emulator (and scripting, file > transfer, protocol etc) > Check older versions too, there might be a "general" > MS-Dos version or even tandy specifics?. Nothing sure though. > Kermit was once freeware but gone commercial now I think. kermit is still freeware, except for the Windows version, which they charge ~$50 (iirc) for. http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ should have links to the various versions. Depending on your OS, it may or may not have vt100 emulation built in. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 14:28:09 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:28:09 -0600 Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") In-Reply-To: <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <003501c70ce2$64cbf9a0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Yeah, there is going to be some difficulty matching the pebbled paint on the /34 front panel. I had one place that almost was going to do it for me then backed out when they found out it was just that one part. I personally would recommend sandblasting it first then repainting, in case there's any latent rust (don't see why there should be, but whatever) Just my two cents. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") > > Ashley wrote... > > Jay, that's a great looking system! Did you use any of the > > pieces/parts you got from me on that system? > Humm I don't recall you sending me any parts for the /34. I > know you sent me a few cabinet parts and few memory boards to > help with my /45 though. I'm probably forgetting something > and I apologize if so! > > > ... but I just need to clean up the side panels and touch > up the legs, > > clean up the black cover panels, etc. > I was going to take a RL02 front panel or dec corp cab filler > panel in to a hardware store and have them match the paint > color exactly, and get a small can of the correct mix. Or > does an industry standard color coding system exist, and > these magic numbers are known by a listmember so I can just > get the color already? I would really like to get an exact > match for the "white" > on the front of the /34 & RL02, the "grey" on the H960 side > panel, and the "black" on the H960 anti-tip feet. Not just > the right color but the right type of paint and finish. > > Jay > > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 14:31:22 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:31:22 -0600 Subject: vtserver question & mod In-Reply-To: <010601c70cdd$b10d40d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <003601c70ce2$d815d480$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> What I usually do is image the blank RL02 and then do whatever I need to with it, and dump it back on to the same cartridge to avoid losing the bad block track. A lot of work I know, but it gets around the problem (plus my RL02s generally have important stuff on them when I get them anyway) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: vtserver question & mod > > Another point... I'm wondering if vtserver "v3?" will have an > option to not overlay the last track on an RL02 (and thus > writing over the badspot list). > > Jay > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 20 14:44:55 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:44:55 -0800 Subject: Binkleyterm and DEC FOSSILS - WAS RE: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <116a01c70ce4$bc724270$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Armstrong Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 6:48 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program On my DEC Rainbow, I exclusively use BinkleyTerm as it can function as a terminal quite well using the appropriate FOSSIL driver. It supports Xmodem and Zmodem at the least, I believe. Anyway, if you need a T2K FOSSIL, try: http://www.sentry.org/%7Etrev/opus/173files.html#fossil I've made a copy of BinkleyTerm v2.40 (the last version that supports FOSSILs on non-standard hardware) available at: http://approximatrix.com/downloads/legacy-ms-dos-support-files/communication s/bexe_240.zip/view I can't seem to find the related documentation archive right now, but I'm sure I have it at home. Hope this helps! ------------- In case anyone was interested, Vince Periello (Sp) was the author of the DEC FOSSIL and binkleyterm :) From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 14:53:30 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:53:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") Message-ID: <11402134.1164056011076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >I believe there is a Dec Grey standard color. Somebody I have dealt with >before knows where to get it or how to produce it. Maybe it is the guy >who is JCMParts on eBay. Seems like he's the one who told me that he >refurbished Dec terminals, etc, to looks just like factory originals with the >origianal paint colors. I'll have to dig through my thousands of PDP >emails tonight and see who gave me that info. > >Also, I have sets of Dec H960 side panels that are two different colors. >Some sets are more of a greyish color and others are more of a creamy >color. Ok, here's what I have on the DEC Grey color: Per Joe Moir (jcmparts on eBay) from an email dated 10/12/2005 : "We get ours from Raabe 800-966-7580. It is called low gloss gray. They make it for us special." Ashley From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 20 15:33:15 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:33:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stupid IMSAI question Message-ID: <200611202133.kAKLXBBe072933@keith.ezwind.net> --- Barry Watzman wrote: > Rich, > > I'm not sure what "Imsai Specific" means in this > context, but Imsai did sell > their own 8k Basic that originally came on paper > tape (I think that there > may have been a 4K version also). Amazingly, it > came with a full assembler > output source code listing. The only thing about it > that was "Imsai > specific" was that it's load and save commands wer e > customized for the > cassette tape port on an IMSAI MIO card. > > I have the hard copy listing, and as a consequence > of your question, I've > just put it into the scanner and will have a PDF > file later today. Now if > someone wants to key it in, I'll send them the PDF > file. The listing is 113 > pages long. I do not have the paper tape object > code. The version that I > have is 1.4 from 5/12/1977. > > Tell me about the disk system that you can't get > working, I have pretty > extensive knowledge of some of the Imsai disk > systems. > > Barry Watzman > Watzman at neo.rr.com > Exactly how old is the IMSAI computer? I assumed it was from the 80's as I have only seen it in the film War Games (starring a young Matthew Broderick). A quick search on the 'net a few months ago only revealed the one unit, available in 3 colours (grey, blue and one other, IIRC). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 20 15:36:43 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:36:43 +0100 Subject: Scelbal / sc.asm Message-ID: <45621FEB.3030900@bluewin.ch> Scelbal (basic for the i8008) in source form is avaliable on some internet sites. Google for scelbal and sc.asm Anyone here sucessfully ran this on a emulator or on the real thing ? Jos Dreesen From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 20 16:16:13 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:16:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, William Donzelli wrote: >> After awhile though, the seller should get tired of paying the listing >> and reserve fees if the item isn't selling :) > > Cost of business. So what if you wasted fifty dollars on dud auctions if > you realize one hundred dollars more than market value. Or the item that sells regularly for $500 that cost $5? ;) Why start it too low and sell it for $150 when the market will without a doubt bear $500? That's why I'm a fan of setting reasonable prices for starting bids instead of using a hidden reserve. >> ...or the buyer will move on to the next one, possibly paying more for >> one that doesn't have a reserve. I've seen it go down both ways. > > Yes, but often it is a long time between the next one. This is why > reserve auctions are geared towards rarer or higher ticket items. I don't think the discussion was specifically about "rare" items though. Lots and lots of sellers are using reserves on common and downright cheap items thinking they are worth a lot more than they are. A lot of the stuff I deal with I consider commodity stuff, though some buyers consider it rare. Its all a matter of perspective. I bought out the entire inventory of TRS-80 cassette and 4-pin serial cables when all the Radio Shack stores in Houston sent them to the outlet store in the late 80s. You'd be hard pressed to find them NOS now, but even after giving so many away over the years, I'm still sitting on quite a few (though at the current rate they sell, I'll probably run out sometime early this next year). Does that make them rare? -Toth From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 20 16:08:00 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:08:00 -0500 Subject: vtserver question & mod In-Reply-To: Message from Ashley Carder of "Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:51:42 EST." <18721337.1164048702449.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200611202208.kAKM80e1031284@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ashley Carder wrote: >> >> Whatever happened to the VTServer v3 project? There were some >>upcoming features (like >32MB transfers) that I was eagerly awaiting. >> >> >> Doc > >I think that my version is about 2 1/2 years old. It has also been >almost that long since I've heard from Fred, so I have not heard of >any VTServer news since mid-to-late 2004. If you and Jay send me a tar file or tell me where they are I'll make a page and put them up on the web. I've got a bunch of little pdp-11 linux things I've been meaning to collect anyway. I'd be interesting in hearing more about "vtserver v3" also; who was doing that? -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 20 16:11:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:11:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What is this thing? In-Reply-To: <200611192315.kAJNF6Gc026420@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Nov 19, 6 05:15:08 pm Message-ID: > > > Unless anyone has any objections, i will put > up everyones suggestions onto my webpage > until I find out for sure what it is. No objections from me. As I've said before, anything I post here I consider to be 'published' anyway, so I don't object to further distribution > > If anyone wishes to have their suggestions > marked down as "anonymous" then also let me > know. But I do feel my name should remain attached to it. Firstly so people see the sort of things I get up to, and secondly so that they know who to flame when (not if) I make a mistake. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 20 16:17:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:17:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sanyo lat-200a In-Reply-To: <000601c70c4c$c694b230$0201a8c0@digit> from "Stijn Bagin" at Nov 20, 6 03:37:08 am Message-ID: > > Anyway (thanks for your response btw), the 50-pins connector appears to = > be a standard SCSI port, at least that is what I discovered after = > measuring the 'ground' pin layout and comparing it with a standard 50pin = > - SCSI datasheet... The original Harddrive was a full size 3,5 inch = > model from a brand named Kyosho (the hardware is dated 1985 so I don't = > think 2,5 inch was around back then...) It only had a 26pin data strip = > connector (no power connector) (It's broken btw) which was hooked up to = > a little controller board (loose hanging in between boards) from SMS = > OMTI ( a famous name that is often found in accordance with SCSI drives = > and other datastorage devices (or so I read here and there))=20 I know nothing about that machine, I've never seen one, etc.. But I am wondering if that 26 pin interface is a 'raw' one -- a bit like the ST412 interface, but packed onto one connector and probanly only supporting one drive. How complicated ins the Omti board? Could it do the raw (digital version of the signal to/from the head) to formatted (user data as you'd send over the SCIS interfac) conversion? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 20 16:20:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:20:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program In-Reply-To: <887253.81159.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 19, 6 07:33:23 pm Message-ID: > > can you elaborate a little? To my knowledge, Kermit is > a protocol or set of them. I know Im a little dull It is. The point is, though, there was a Kermit program (that is, a comms program that implemented the Kermit file transfer protocol) for just about every machine that had a serial port. Most microcomputer kermit programs also acted as dumb or smart terminal emulators, so a kermit for the T2K (if one exists) would be what the OP was asking for, -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 16:40:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:40:35 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits Message-ID: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Not vintage, but closely related. Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. I see various development kits out there with various capabilities (I/O memory, displays, etc.). Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? I'm just looking for some pointers here. Thanks, Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Mon Nov 20 11:27:11 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 09:27:11 -0800 Subject: 74s472 proms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:21 PM -0800 11/19/06, David Griffith wrote: >Does anyone here know a good source for 74s472 proms for a lower price >than what Jameco charges ($12 apiece)? > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? arcadechips.com has a few PROMs that are not expensive, perhaps he has a substitute for yours... http://www.arcadechips.com/index.php?cPath=27_23 John :-#)# PS. O.T. OK, sigh, I do tend to top-post..., my only argument is if you top post people can quickly see the answer if they are at all interested in the question. Often folks do not TRIM extranious text and you have to scroll down forever to find the answer or lack thereof. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 20 16:59:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:59:03 -0700 Subject: What's the point of auction with reserved price? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:16:13 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > [...] I'm still sitting on quite a few (though at the > current rate they sell, I'll probably run out sometime early this next > year). Does that make them rare? Not until you run out :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 20 17:08:04 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:08:04 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2006, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not vintage, but closely related. > > Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can > implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. > > I see various development kits out there with various capabilities > (I/O memory, displays, etc.). > > Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the > others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? > > I'm just looking for some pointers here. I personally prefer the Xilinx FPGAs and CPLDs, but that's most likely because I started out with them. I really, really like the Digilent development boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Nov 20 17:26:24 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:26:24 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061120182112.03b65410@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >On Nov 20, 2006, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Not vintage, but closely related. >> >>Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can >>implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. >> >>I see various development kits out there with various capabilities >>(I/O memory, displays, etc.). >> >>Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the >>others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? >> >>I'm just looking for some pointers here. > > I personally prefer the Xilinx FPGAs and CPLDs, but that's most >likely because I started out with them. I really, really like the >Digilent development boards. On that particular note, are there halfway decent dev. boards for less than $100? I don't care if it's used, old (read: not USB/ethernet compatible) as the parts I'm interested in are fairly low-end (=<80 pins) - mainly for use in classic computing projects that I can't seem to get moving on... ;-) I can't see investing in a $400 dev. board just to find out I'm too durned stoopid to figure them thangs out... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 20 17:33:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:33:50 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:40:35 PST." <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >Not vintage, but closely related. > >Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can >implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. > >I see various development kits out there with various capabilities >(I/O memory, displays, etc.). > >Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the >others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? I use them both, but for some reason I prefer Xilinx. It may be that they are slightly easier to get via digikey. They are often horseraced by customers of mine (which is fun to watch). I don't think you can go wrong with this for $89 http://www.xess.com/ and if you want to get motivated, check this out http://www.opencores.org/projects.cgi/web/cpu8080/overview Let me know when you boot the scelbi basic interpreter on a flat screen vga :-) I use several open source verilog interpreters to test code before I put it in a device - cver and iverilog (er, ah, http://www.icarus.com/eda/verilog and http://www.pragmatic-c.com/gpl-cver). Work for me. Modelsim on win32 is also really nice but not free. -brad From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 20 17:52:04 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:52:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061120235204.49313.qmail@web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is there any particular kit that stands heads and > shoulders above the > others? By far, the most cost-effective FPGA boards seem to the the Xilinx-based boards sold by Digilent, Inc. www.digilentinc.com They sell a number of nice "all-in-one" boards suitable for an entire vintage-style system, e.g, the $99 Spartan 3 starter kit, and a modular system more suitable for integration into a larger homewbrew digital system, e.g., the D2SB and accessory boards. --Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 20 18:19:41 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:19:41 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits Message-ID: I'm using these for my USB2 data acquisition project which has an Altera Cyclone on it. http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_Xylo.html From g-wright at att.net Mon Nov 20 18:48:07 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:48:07 +0000 Subject: Looking for DEC Unibus CDU700/m SCSI controller info Message-ID: <112120060048.29115.45624CC70004D408000071BB21604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi all I have one of these and would like more info on it. anyone have a Manual or can point me in the right direction. - Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 20 21:18:33 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:18:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hans, baby, this is for you Message-ID: <200611210318.kAL3IXjT016760@floodgap.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150061088892 Or any of our other German members want an instant Commodore collection? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to type. - S. Gardner From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 22:05:17 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:05:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a tandy 2000 compatible comm program Message-ID: <685806.37455.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Yo thanks for that. Looks promising. FINALLY A RAINBOW FAN TO BOOT! Rock on. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On my DEC Rainbow, I exclusively use BinkleyTerm as it can function as a > terminal quite well using the appropriate FOSSIL driver. It supports > Xmodem and Zmodem at the least, I believe. Anyway, if you need a T2K > FOSSIL, try: > > http://www.sentry.org/%7Etrev/opus/173files.html#fossil > > I've made a copy of BinkleyTerm v2.40 (the last version that supports > FOSSILs on non-standard hardware) available at: > > http://approximatrix.com/downloads/legacy-ms-dos-support-files/communications/bexe_240.zip/view > > I can't seem to find the related documentation archive right now, but I'm > sure I have it at home. Hope this helps! > > Jeff Armstrong > jba at sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Assoc http://yahoo.degrees.info From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 22:17:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:17:26 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061120182112.03b65410@mail.30below.com> References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20061120182112.03b65410@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <45620D56.21038.2071396B@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2006 at 18:26, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On that particular note, are there halfway decent dev. boards for less than > $100? I don't care if it's used, old (read: not USB/ethernet compatible) as > the parts I'm interested in are fairly low-end (=<80 pins) - mainly for use > in classic computing projects that I can't seem to get moving on... ;-) Not exactly under $100, but under $150, I received a flyer today from Electronix Express showng their Terasic Altera Cyclone 1C6 FPGA dev kit for $149. It looks pretty loaded: http://www.elexp.com/tst_pga1.htm Opinions? They've also got a Xilinx 95108 and Altera EPM7128 CPLD dev kits for under $80. Cheers, Chuck From g-wright at att.net Mon Nov 20 22:25:34 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:25:34 +0000 Subject: DEC TU-80 Trouble shooting info Message-ID: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi I have one that i would like to get working but have not been able to find much real helpfull info on it. These are based on a Computer Pheripherals inc. tape drive. At least that is whats on the sticker. It turns on and when you push "logic on" it goes into self test and just stays there with out any codes displayed. Display just stays at "00" voltages look close. DEC manual says system main board or voltages off. I guess they just had a stack of spare boards to test with. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 20 22:27:11 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <45620D56.21038.2071396B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061121042711.42845.qmail@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.elexp.com/tst_pga1.htm > > Opinions? For simple vintage designs, you may prefer a board designed around static SRAM. These may be less featureful, however, as they would likely not be designed to support the current-generation embedded cores (MicroBlaze, NIOS, etc.). --Bill From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Nov 20 23:25:46 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:25:46 -0800 Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") In-Reply-To: <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <7750650.1164049139909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45628DDA.4040909@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > I was going to take a RL02 front panel or dec corp cab filler panel in > to a hardware store and have them match the paint color exactly, and > get a small can of the correct mix. Or does an industry standard color > coding system exist, and these magic numbers are known by a listmember > so I can just get the color already? I would really like to get an > exact match for the "white" on the front of the /34 & RL02, the "grey" > on the H960 side panel, and the "black" on the H960 anti-tip feet. Not > just the right color but the right type of paint and finish. I got this from somebody who got it from DEC circa 1999 or so; these may or may not be available anymore from the listed paint vendor, I don't know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- System Paint Copyright (c) Digital Equipment Corporation 1998. All rights reserved. U.S. Area Information Center QRL, Quick Reference List Supplies: PAINT, for PDP and VAXES Updated: 16-APR-1998 Article Expiration Date: 27-MAY-2000 Part Description: DEC Part Number: ________________________________________________________________________ Note: Paints are ordered from Randolf Products Harlestat, NJ 201-438-3700 Specify Product type, Randolf Products will provide color match. End Note: Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Gray 49-01524-01 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Old Digital Blue/gray 49-01524-02 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Black 49-01524-03 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,End Panel Grey 49-01524-04 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Bright Copen Blue 49-01524-05 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Terra Cotta 49-01524-06 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Scale Grey 49-01524-07 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Blasi Blue 49-01524-08 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Topaz 49-01524-09 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mullen Blue 49-01524-10 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Perferred Red 49-01524-11 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Digital Brown 49-01524-12 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Charcoal 49-01524-13 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mid-Range Gray 49-01524-14 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mid,Dark Gray 49-01524-15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Nov 21 00:09:15 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:09:15 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4562980B.8040808@mindspring.com> Brad Parker wrote: > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> Not vintage, but closely related. >> >> Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can >> implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. >> >> I see various development kits out there with various capabilities >> (I/O memory, displays, etc.). >> >> Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the >> others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? I, too, really like the boards from digilent (http://www.digilentinc.com/). They have a number of different styles from low end CPLDs to very high end FPGAs (only Xilinx, though). I've used both their older Pegasus (Spartan2) and the newer Spartan3 boards. Xilinx supplies the free webpack synthesis tools (http://www.xilinx.com) of course. For simulation I also recommend gpl-cver (http://www.pragmatic-c.com/gpl-cver) for verilog under cygwin (http://www.cygwin.com) on WinXP. For viewing waveforms I use dinotrace (http://www.veripool.com/dinotrace/). Using all these pieces I was able to implement a PDP-8e (no EAE, at least yet) that passes all the basic CPU diagnostics. Cast in hardware on the digilent Pegasus it occupies about 13% of an XC2S200-6, and runs at 15ns per clock tick (4 ticks per cycle), which is about 20X faster than a real PDP-8m (1200ns/60ns). The base CPU is about 500 lines of verilog. Don From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 00:52:50 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:52:50 -0600 Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") In-Reply-To: <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <7750650.1164049139909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <2789adda0611202252i4bda8a6dsa01ea97a3d025e8e@mail.gmail.com> You would be better off going to an automotive paint store. Paint formulas are coded by each manf. PPG will be differfent than say Dupont, etc. Equipment manf. like Dec would have either used a stock color out of say the PPG book, or could have come up with their own formula but it would be based on the tints and base stock of a particular paint brand. What you need to look for is a paint code formula and brand for each of the areas you are interested in refinishing. Take that to an Automotive paint store and then can mix it for you, some stores can also load it into aerosol cans. Need to know what type of paint you want. A lot of equipment was painted with Lacquer, but you need to know for sure before put more on. One test is to dampen a cloth with laq thinner and see if it will soften and lift a bit of the paint color when rubbed (in some hidden spot). On 11/20/06, Jay West wrote: > Ashley wrote... > > Jay, that's a great looking system! Did you use any of the pieces/parts > > you got from me on that system? > Humm I don't recall you sending me any parts for the /34. I know you sent me > a few cabinet parts and few memory boards to help with my /45 though. I'm > probably forgetting something and I apologize if so! > > > ... but I just need to clean up the side panels and > > touch up the legs, clean up the black cover panels, etc. > I was going to take a RL02 front panel or dec corp cab filler panel in to a > hardware store and have them match the paint color exactly, and get a small > can of the correct mix. Or does an industry standard color coding system > exist, and these magic numbers are known by a listmember so I can just get > the color already? I would really like to get an exact match for the "white" > on the front of the /34 & RL02, the "grey" on the H960 side panel, and the > "black" on the H960 anti-tip feet. Not just the right color but the right > type of paint and finish. > > Jay > > > From cc at corti-net.de Tue Nov 21 04:31:14 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:31:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") In-Reply-To: <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <7750650.1164049139909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Jay West wrote: > can of the correct mix. Or does an industry standard color coding system > exist, and these magic numbers are known by a listmember so I can just get Yes, it's called RAL (Reichsausschu? f?r Lieferbedingungen), e.g RAL 9010 is a pure white, RAL 9001 creme white and so on (simply google for RAL). Whether DEC used this norm, I don't know. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Tue Nov 21 04:39:49 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:39:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: vtserver question & mod In-Reply-To: <200611202208.kAKM80e1031284@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611202208.kAKM80e1031284@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Brad Parker wrote: > I'd be interesting in hearing more about "vtserver v3" also; who was > doing that? Well, Fred van Kempen wrote around 4 years ago that he had almost finished version 3, its main advantage over older versions should be compression to reduce transfer times. Since then, I've never heard anything new about vtserver. In my opinion the development has been abandoned. Christian From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 21 08:06:31 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:06:31 -0500 Subject: Stupid IMSAI Question In-Reply-To: <200611210729.kAL7Tj1v047823@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004801c70d76$3f291ef0$6601a8c0@barry> IMSAI is a company, really, not a computer. They made about a dozen models of computers from 1975 to about 1981 (might be off a year or so on the end date). But when people talk about an "IMSAI" computer, they are almost always talking about the original IMSAI 8080 computer, the one in the War Games movie. That model was made from 1975 to about 1978, and it was made only in one color scheme (blue cover, grey lower front panel below the switches). It was a very generic S-100 computer. ************ Exactly how old is the IMSAI computer? I assumed it was from the 80's as I have only seen it in the film War Games (starring a young Matthew Broderick). A quick search on the 'net a few months ago only revealed the one unit, available in 3 colours (grey, blue and one other, IIRC). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 21 09:00:22 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:00:22 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4562980B.8040808@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "Don North" > Using all these pieces I was able to implement a PDP-8e (no EAE, at least > yet) > that passes all the basic CPU diagnostics. Cast in hardware on the > digilent > Pegasus it occupies about 13% of an XC2S200-6, and runs at 15ns per clock > tick > (4 ticks per cycle), which is about 20X faster than a real PDP-8m > (1200ns/60ns). > The base CPU is about 500 lines of verilog. One of the questions I have kicking around (I even bought an XESS board) was: How hard would it be to get a PDP-8 core into an FPGA and arrange the pinout to correspond to the 6100 or 6120? Then it wouldn't be necessary to desolder 6120's from Decmates to get our SBC6120's working :-). Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 21 09:01:29 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:01:29 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061120182112.03b65410@mail.30below.com> References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061120182112.03b65410@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6B4DC5FA-4356-41FB-A2E3-32A1B116FE2E@neurotica.com> On Nov 20, 2006, at 6:26 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On that particular note, are there halfway decent dev. boards for > less than $100? I don't care if it's used, old (read: not USB/ > ethernet compatible) as the parts I'm interested in are fairly low- > end (=<80 pins) - mainly for use in classic computing projects that > I can't seem to get moving on... ;-) > > I can't see investing in a $400 dev. board just to find out I'm too > durned stoopid to figure them thangs out... ;-) ;) Go to http://www.digilentinc.com/ and look for "Spartan 3 Starter Board" under Products. It's $99. That's the one that I have, and it's wonderful. Lots of I/O (set up for VGA, PS/2 kbd/mouse, async serial), LED displays and individual LEDs, switches, RAM...and there are lots of "accessory boards" that plug into this board, like analog I/O, solderless breadboard with FPGA pin breakouts, etc etc. It really is good stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 21 09:18:26 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:18:26 -0500 Subject: DEC TU-80 Trouble shooting info In-Reply-To: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2006, at 11:25 PM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I have one that i would like to get working but > have not been able to find much real helpfull > info on it. > > These are based on a Computer Pheripherals inc. > tape drive. At least that is whats on the sticker. > > It turns on and when you push "logic on" it goes > into self test and just stays there with out any > codes displayed. Display just stays at "00" > voltages look close. DEC manual says system main > board or voltages off. I guess they just had a > stack of spare boards to test with. As far as I recall, the TU80 is a rebadged CDC Keystone air- bearing drive, model 92181. There are service manuals for that drive on Bitsavers. Look here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/magtape/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From John.Bartram at eon-uk.com Tue Nov 21 05:17:11 2006 From: John.Bartram at eon-uk.com (Bartram, John (Energy Wholesale)) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:17:11 -0000 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query Message-ID: <63B2384D79572C45A5F3BFE2D15E5F6A361093@CORWWPKSEXV02.corp.pg.eon.net> Is there any chance that I may have a copy of it? Regards, John Bartram E.ON UK, Power Technology Ratcliffe on Soar Nottingham NG11 0EE, UK T +44 (0) 115 936 2640 M +44 (0) 7768 466 806 john.bartram at eon-uk.com P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ___________________________ Disclaimer Notice ____________________ This message and any attachments are confidential and should only be read by those to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact us, delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. Any distribution or copying without our prior permission is prohibited. Internet communications are not always secure and therefore the E.ON Group does not accept legal responsibility for this message. The recipient is responsible for verifying its authenticity before acting on the contents. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the E.ON Group. E.ON UK plc, Westwood Way, Westwood Business Park, Coventry, CV4 8LG. Registered in England & Wales No. 2366970 E.ON UK Trading Ltd, Westwood Way, Westwood Business Park, Coventry, CV4 8LG Registered in England & Wales No. 4178314 E.ON UK Trading Ltd is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority to carry out energy investment activities. Telephone +44 (0) 2476 42 4000 Fax +44 (0) 2476 42 5432 From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Nov 21 06:26:42 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:26:42 +0000 Subject: vtserver question & mod In-Reply-To: <00f901c70cdc$2fd42840$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <19805440.1164047671736.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <00f901c70cdc$2fd42840$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4562F082.8050000@gjcp.net> Jay West wrote: > I'd suggest you check with Fred before putting it up publicly, he may Yeah, where is he anyway? I haven't seem him about for a bit... Gordon From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Nov 21 10:04:53 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:04:53 +0100 Subject: vtserver question & mod In-Reply-To: <4562F082.8050000@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488134@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Gordon wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: dinsdag 21 november 2006 13:27 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: vtserver question & mod > > Jay West wrote: > > > I'd suggest you check with Fred before putting it up > publicly, he may > > Yeah, where is he anyway? I haven't seem him about for a bit... > > Gordon I met Fred on the HAM radio market when I last spoke with him. That was last March 2006 (the big annual thing in Hololand) ... Fred is very much into packet radio, digital transmission modes and that kind of stuff. Fred also holds a HAM radio license, as several other people on this list. - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Nov 21 12:05:35 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:05:35 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4562980B.8040808@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45633FEF.7000504@mindspring.com> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Don North" >> Using all these pieces I was able to implement a PDP-8e (no EAE, at >> least yet) >> that passes all the basic CPU diagnostics. Cast in hardware on the >> digilent >> Pegasus it occupies about 13% of an XC2S200-6, and runs at 15ns per >> clock tick >> (4 ticks per cycle), which is about 20X faster than a real PDP-8m >> (1200ns/60ns). >> The base CPU is about 500 lines of verilog. > > One of the questions I have kicking around (I even bought an XESS > board) was: How hard would it be to get a PDP-8 core into an FPGA > and arrange the pinout to correspond to the 6100 or 6120? > > Then it wouldn't be necessary to desolder 6120's from Decmates to > get our SBC6120's working :-). Getting the logical signals to match would not be that big a deal; the larger problem would be getting a compatible form factor. I retargeted my PDP8 above to a XC2S30 and it occupies about 75% of the device. In a CS144 (small 0.8mm pitch BGA) one could probably make a DIP40 plugin carrier that was pin compatible to either the 6100 or 6120 parts. Signal level compatibility (ie, 5V tolerance) and power supply compatibility (5V/3.3V/2.5V/1.8V) would be more difficult problems. Some of the older FPGAs offer 5V tolerant I/Os (ie, Spartan2) but the newer ones (IIe, Spartan3) do not. None of these devices use 5V supplies, they are all 1.8V~3.3V at most. The power supply issue can be solved by a small linear regulator, but I/O level compatibility is a stickier problem. Anyway, it is an interesting problem, probably solvable given more thought and research. However, I suspect any low volume solution will still be more costly than just tracking down old IM6100 ICs for $10-$20. Not nearly as much fun, tho. Don From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 12:17:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:17:25 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:05:35 -0800. <45633FEF.7000504@mindspring.com> Message-ID: In article <45633FEF.7000504 at mindspring.com>, Don North writes: > The power > supply issue can be solved by a small linear regulator, but I/O level > compatibility > is a stickier problem. You might need to homebrew a few transistors to get the right logic level. IIRC, anything can be done with discrete transistors since the logic gates are implemented that way on the chip anyway :-). With discretes you should be able to get any voltage level you need, hopefully staying within the rise and fall-time specs. Although I would think its easier to meet vintage specs nowadays with current transistor offerings. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 21 12:42:22 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:42:22 +0100 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> Not vintage, but closely related. >> >> Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can >> implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. >> >> I see various development kits out there with various capabilities >> (I/O memory, displays, etc.). >> >> Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the >> others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? > Am i the only one that feels that using modern FPGA's to recreate old CPU's is getting dangerously close to just running an emulation on a modern PC ? Jos From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 21 12:51:34 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:51:34 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4562980B.8040808@mindspring.com> <45633FEF.7000504@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "Don North" > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> One of the questions I have kicking around (I even bought an XESS >> board) was: How hard would it be to get a PDP-8 core into an FPGA >> and arrange the pinout to correspond to the 6100 or 6120? >> >> Then it wouldn't be necessary to desolder 6120's from Decmates to >> get our SBC6120's working :-). > > Getting the logical signals to match would not be that big a deal; the > larger problem would be getting a compatible form factor. I retargeted > my PDP8 above to a XC2S30 and it occupies about 75% of the device. In > a CS144 (small 0.8mm pitch BGA) one could probably make a DIP40 plugin > carrier that was pin compatible to either the 6100 or 6120 parts. Hmm...BGA...ick :-). We only need about 40 pins for this application. Does anyone make a device with a smaller pincount? A nice solderable 64-pin qfp perhaps? > None of these devices use 5V supplies, they are all 1.8V~3.3V at most. > The power supply issue can be solved by a small linear regulator, but > I/O level compatibility is a stickier problem. I was thinking a 3.3v device with resistors in the input paths to keep them within range. The outputs would probably be acceptable as-is. > Anyway, it is an interesting problem, probably solvable given more > thought and research. However, I suspect any low volume solution > will still be more costly than just tracking down old IM6100 ICs > for $10-$20. Not nearly as much fun, tho. True, but figuring out how to one-off a replacement for a 6120 seems a worthy project. Also, I think the cost-benefit equation will continue to shift, as old parts get more expensive, and new ones (hopefully) don't :-). Vince From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 13:03:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:03:17 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:42:22 +0100. <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4563488E.8050405 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > Am i the only one that feels that using modern FPGA's to recreate old > CPU's is getting dangerously close to just running an emulation on a > modern PC ? Well, first off creating the CPU in an FPGA by writing your own verilog to implement the CPU can be very instructive w.r.t. the instruction set of the original CPU. Second, creating the CPU in an FPGA so that you can use it to get vintage equipment running is certainly *not* like running an emulator. Thirdly, I don't see anything "wrong" with running an emulator. Its a cheap and easy way to experience the old environments. The advantage of an FPGA is that it lets you emulate old hardware as well, hardware. For instance, I'd really like to be able to run my PDP-11/03's CPU without powering up the RL01s. The best way to do this, IMO, would be to provide "fake" RL01s to the RL01 controller as a piece of FPGA hardware that talked over USB (or whatever) to my PC to supply the data. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From class at fliptronics.com Tue Nov 21 13:11:38 2006 From: class at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:11:38 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <28j6m2tjsv1avamu9q4bi6889d8sncuqk4@4ax.com> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:40:35 -0800, you wrote: >Not vintage, but closely related. > >Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can >implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. > >I see various development kits out there with various capabilities >(I/O memory, displays, etc.). > >Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the >others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? > >I'm just looking for some pointers here. > >Thanks, >Chuck There are many board vendors. Most are listed here: http://www.fpga-faq.org/FPGA_Boards.shtml This type of stuff is regularly discussed in comp.arch.fpga The web site http://fpgacpu.org/ is a somewhat dated collection of related material, but importantly includes the three articles from Jan Gray that were published in Circuit Cellar in 2000: http://fpgacpu.org/xsoc/cc.html There is also a Yahoo group, but it is pretty dead. The first CPU in an FPGA was designed by me in 1990, The RISC4005/R16. It had flashing lights and paddle switches just like any other REAL computer. The architecture was a 16 bit that looked a bit like the AMD29000 RISC. Does it now rate as classic ? :-) Cheers, Philip ================= Philip Freidin philip at fliptronics.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 21 13:44:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:44:42 -0600 Subject: TU-81+? References: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <008d01c70da5$7ff84350$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dave wrote.... > As far as I recall, the TU80 is a rebadged CDC Keystone air- bearing > drive, model 92181. There are service manuals for that drive on > Bitsavers. Look here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/magtape/ So what about a TU81+? Those aren't quite the same drive I don't think. Is the same manual sufficient for most things? Or is the TU81+ some other rebadged drive that would be on bitsavers? Speaking of which... anyone have a spare of the ribbon cable that goes from the KLESI-UA card to the cabinet I/O bulkhead? Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 21 13:47:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:47:34 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2006 at 19:42, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Am i the only one that feels that using modern FPGA's to recreate old > CPU's is getting dangerously close to just running an emulation on a > modern PC ? Well, I've done my fair time on the old equipment; in my old age, my ears ring constantly (I've never attended a rock concert nor operated heavy equipment without ear protection), I've dug crumpled and torn cards out of card readers; picked bits of ribbon out of printers and done all sorts of other unpleasant chores Old equipment for the sake of being old doesn't interest me. On the other hand, implementing a CPU in software, while being very useful when one needs something to check out the operation of legacy code, isn't quite the same to me as doing it in hardware, even if said hardware is really "programmed" also. A matter of degree, I suspect. There apparently used to be a fellow who implemented pin-compatible FPGA replacements for the Z80 and 6502 using Xilinx 4013's, but I can't find any details of his work. One of the modern chip suppliers, Innovasic, offers drop-in FPGA replacements for old MPUs and other circuits. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 15:26:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:26:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <20061119120444.R68895@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20061121212648.68440.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > All of the offices in the new college building have > those infernal > contraptions. Even in the library. NON-ADJUSTABLE > at that! Every few > minutes, you have to get up and do jumping jacks to > get the lights back > on. An insidious plot to promote physical fitness. Umm didn't like jumping jacks go out with Jack La Lanne LOL?? Are there any findings to suggest that there are any REAL health benefits associated with the activity?? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Loan for $1399/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From ray at arachelian.com Tue Nov 21 15:50:10 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:50:10 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> <4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Nov 2006 at 19:42, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > There apparently used to be a fellow who implemented pin-compatible > FPGA replacements for the Z80 and 6502 using Xilinx 4013's, but I > can't find any details of his work. One of the modern chip > suppliers, Innovasic, offers drop-in FPGA replacements for old MPUs > and other circuits. > Would certainly be fun to figure out how to do this. Are there any resources or samples out there that would point at how this is done? Do you start with a schematic of the CPU or the device and convert that to verilog by hand, or is there some automated way? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 15:59:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:59:54 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:50:10 -0500. <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: In article <45637492.10102 at arachelian.com>, Ray Arachelian writes: > Would certainly be fun to figure out how to do this. Are there any > resources or samples out there that would point at how this is done? Do > you start with a schematic of the CPU or the device and convert that to > verilog by hand, or is there some automated way? I suppose for older CPUs that were implemented in discrete logic or SSI standard parts, its fairly easy to come up with a schematic. However, for all-on-one-chip MPUs, generally there isn't a schematic available and you have to work from a behavioral specification like the datasheet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 16:00:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:00:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine Message-ID: <429548.43164.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> let me know :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 21 16:14:32 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:14:32 -0600 Subject: What is this thing? In-Reply-To: References: <200611172343.kAHNh82c037763@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061121161327.090004b0@mail> At 05:57 PM 11/17/2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 11/18/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>On the >>front of the box it states "4MB populated", >>what does that mean? > >Sounds like they sold more than one size - perhaps the same base >board, but with different amounts of RAM chips installed. Yes, it was common back in the day to buy a board that had sockets for RAM you could not yet afford. >>As stated the seller has no idea what this is >>and I am totally stumped too. What is it?! > >Sounds like an application key - a 'dongle'. Yes, sounds like a dongle for the Amiga's second mouse port. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 21 15:11:47 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:11:47 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:03:17 MST." Message-ID: <200611212111.kALLBmme028800@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: ... >The advantage of an FPGA is that it lets you emulate old hardware as >well, hardware. For instance, I'd really like to be able to run my >PDP-11/03's CPU without powering up the RL01s. The best way to do >this, IMO, would be to provide "fake" RL01s to the RL01 controller as >a piece of FPGA hardware that talked over USB (or whatever) to my PC >to supply the data. I'm working on that. My real job just keeps getting in the way. I've gotten it to almost boot rt-11 from a fake rl02. There's still debugging to be done but the basic concept is working. Basically it's a small cpld and a tiny arm cpu. It can be a bus master, generate interupts, dma, whatever. I'm reading the disk image from CF card but it also has a usb function port (and a serial port). I hope to finish getting rt11 up in the next month or two. It's been hanging off an extender card in an 11/44 (on it's side) for a few months now... -brad From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 21 16:23:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:23:13 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >>> Not vintage, but closely related. >>> >>> Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I >>> can implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. >>> >>> I see various development kits out there with various >>> capabilities (I/O memory, displays, etc.). >>> >>> Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above >>> the others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? > > Am i the only one that feels that using modern FPGA's to recreate > old CPU's is getting dangerously close to just running an emulation > on a modern PC ? Yes. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 21 16:30:05 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:30:05 -0500 Subject: TU-81+? In-Reply-To: <008d01c70da5$7ff84350$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> <008d01c70da5$7ff84350$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061121223005.98113BA41F0@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Dave wrote.... > > As far as I recall, the TU80 is a rebadged CDC Keystone air- bearing > > drive, model 92181. There are service manuals for that drive on > > Bitsavers. Look here: > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/magtape/ > > So what about a TU81+? Those aren't quite the same drive I don't think. IIRC the TU-80 is mostly a Keystone II (92181), the TU-81+ is mostly (but more than) a Keystone III (92185). I think there were variant model numbers for top-of-rack mounting (like the versions DEC sold) vs the ones that went on a front of a rack (often seen in Sun and countless other systems). I never could tell if the DEC-badged versions had idential firmware (they often tweaked things) but I never noticed any differences. DEC TU-80's and TU-81's are usually configured to not run the blower all the time, while most of the Keystones I used that didn't come through DEC did run the blower all the time. I think this is actually menu-configurable from SETUP but maybe it's really a firmware difference (too many years!). > Is > the same manual sufficient for most things? Some of the built-in diagnostics are the same. What's wrong with the bitsavers manuals for the TU81? /pdf/dec/magtape/tu81/* Tim. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 21 16:37:37 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:37:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Amiga Quiz Message-ID: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net> FYI: I scored 14 out of 30 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- In Commodore_Amiga_Retro at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Hill" wrote: > > Hi Amigos, > > Just stumbled across this Amiga quiz while looking logic simulator software: > > http://www.tetzl.de/quiz/quizbegin.cgi > > I scored 20 points out of 30. How about you? > > -- > Paul > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 16:40:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:40:02 -0700 Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:11:47 -0500. <200611212111.kALLBmme028800@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200611212111.kALLBmme028800 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > Richard wrote: > ... > >The advantage of an FPGA is that it lets you emulate old hardware as > >well, hardware. For instance, I'd really like to be able to run my > >PDP-11/03's CPU without powering up the RL01s. The best way to do > >this, IMO, would be to provide "fake" RL01s to the RL01 controller as > >a piece of FPGA hardware that talked over USB (or whatever) to my PC > >to supply the data. > > I'm working on that. My real job just keeps getting in the way. I've > gotten it to almost boot rt-11 from a fake rl02. [...] Are you faking the drive to the controller or faking the controller to the bus? Driving Q-bus signals is problematic with current hardware offerings, again because of voltage levels and rise/fall time constraints. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 16:43:59 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:43:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> > > Am i the only one that feels that using modern > FPGA's to recreate > > old CPU's is getting dangerously close to just > running an emulation > > on a modern PC ? What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old unit, and would like to see it operational for years to come, what's the problem with using such replacements (if available)? And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 16:54:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <321355.61878.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> 11 HERE __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 16:55:52 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:55:52 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <200611212111.kALLBmme028800@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611212111.kALLBmme028800@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 11/21/06, Brad Parker wrote: > I'm working on that. My real job just keeps getting in the way. I've > gotten it to almost boot rt-11 from a fake rl02. There's still > debugging to be done but the basic concept is working. Basically it's a > small cpld and a tiny arm cpu. It can be a bus master, generate > interupts, dma, whatever. I'm reading the disk image from CF card but > it also has a usb function port (and a serial port). I have a question about this approach. Is CF card good enough to be written thousands of times, or even more? I am thinking about making a substitute MFM HD with DSP and CF card. But I worry about the CF's ability to survive many writes. vax, 9000 I hope to finish getting rt11 up in the next month or two. It's been > hanging off an extender card in an 11/44 (on it's side) for a few months > now... > > -brad > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 16:42:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:42:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC TU-80 Trouble shooting info In-Reply-To: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> from "g-wright@att.net" at Nov 21, 6 04:25:34 am Message-ID: > It turns on and when you push "logic on" it goes > into self test and just stays there with out any > codes displayed. Display just stays at "00" > voltages look close. DEC manual says system main > board or voltages off. I guess they just had a > stack of spare boards to test with. Again, I've never worked on one of these, so this is very generic information. If there's a recognisable microprocessor on the controller board, I'd check it was getting a clock signal, that the reset line wasn't being held asserted, and then check that there was activity on the bus lines from said microprocessor. This might give you an idea of where to start looking for the fault. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 16:50:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:50:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Nov 21, 6 07:42:22 pm Message-ID: > > Am i the only one that feels that using modern FPGA's to recreate old > CPU's is getting dangerously close to just running an emulation on a > modern PC ? It is, but so what? This next statement might suprise you. I see nothing wrong with emulators running on modern PCs -- provided you acknowledge that's not the real vintage hardware. If you're more interested in software, then running an emulaotr seems to be a perfectly valid way of running said software. Similarly, if you like FPGAs [1] then making clones of old CPUs using them seems to be something worth doing. But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in the PDP8/e on my desk with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. Just as I'd not want to put a PC motherboard running an emulator inside that case. However, because I see something as 'not wrong' doesn't mean I want to do it. I still want to do battle with boards of vintage chips. [1] Haveing had to use FPGAs in the past, I'd not wish those darn things onto anybody. Suffice it to say _I_ am a lot more productive armed with a board of chips and a wire-wrap tool. -tony From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 16:57:00 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:57:00 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/21/06, Chris M wrote: > > What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old > unit, and would like to see it operational for years > to come, what's the problem with using such > replacements (if available)? > And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it > works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? The danger is that the real hardware is then trashed. __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Nov 21 17:13:05 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:13:05 -0500 Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <429548.43164.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <429548.43164.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45638801.5050203@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chris M wrote: > let me know :) I have 1989-1993... are those OLD? Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFY4gBCFu3bIiwtTARAsdIAJ9jDSsXcWbCBDJNAJaeGWTW02cVjwCfZD9C PsbX7Vbn87QF/IrMpl2K7VA= =cGZ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 17:17:32 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <947812.62344.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> > But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in > the PDP8/e on my desk > with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. > Just as I'd not want to > put a PC motherboard running an emulator inside that > case. What if the very last thingamabob thingee there went kaput? Huh! I mean there are no more left on planet earth. Would you then do the above there with the whatever you got thing there?? Hmm? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 21 17:18:55 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:18:55 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <321355.61878.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 21/11/06 22:54, "Chris M" wrote: > 11 HERE > Bah, 15 here because I knew nothing about libraries or programming on the beast :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 17:20:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:20:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <838791.79439.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- 9000 VAX wrote: > On 11/21/06, Chris M wrote: > > > > > What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old > > unit, and would like to see it operational for > years > > to come, what's the problem with using such > > replacements (if available)? > > And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it > > works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? > > > The danger is that the real hardware is then > trashed. OI. What if you can't find a replacement? Or just can't find it easily. Granted as long as their are parts available, use them. But what if they ain't? A depressing reality everyone is going to have to face eventually... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. www2.nextag.com From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 21 17:21:34 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:21:34 -0000 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c70dc3$ca1b0260$1204010a@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in the PDP8/e on my > desk with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. Just as I'd > not want to put a PC motherboard running an emulator inside that case. True. But vintage chips are not being made any more, so a viable replacement strategy might at least allow the rest of the vintage computer to continue computing for a little longer (or while waiting for that special old chip to show up). I'd see it as no different to making do with a modern fan if the original had gone south, or replacing the bearings with a modern equivalent. Or even powering a C=64 from something that lasts longer than a day before giving up the ghost :-) The specific case mentioned was the 6120 where it seems a common supply mechanism is to remove them from a DECmate board. If an FPGA saves a DM3 I'd see that as a good thing. It would be an equally good thing if a handful of chips and a wirewrap tool achieved the same objective. Not that I have a DM3 or an FPGA (but I do have several handfuls of chips and at least two wire-wrap tools - one of them mains-driven!). Antonio From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 17:21:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:21:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: not exactly vintage, but kewell nonetheless Message-ID: <20061121232147.8735.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Did I never know Commie made laptops? Did I just forget: http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C386SX-LT-laptop-in-carry-case _W0QQitemZ280050333916QQihZ018QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. www.nextag.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 17:23:17 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:23:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <45638801.5050203@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <426372.54828.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> nah sorry. I've had most of those already. I'm looking for the first five years basically. Thanks regardless. --- "Barry L. Kline" wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Chris M wrote: > > let me know :) > > I have 1989-1993... are those OLD? > > Barry > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFFY4gBCFu3bIiwtTARAsdIAJ9jDSsXcWbCBDJNAJaeGWTW02cVjwCfZD9C > PsbX7Vbn87QF/IrMpl2K7VA= > =cGZ1 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 17:29:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:29:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765974.51918.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Graham wrote: > On 21/11/06 22:54, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > 11 HERE > > > > Bah, 15 here because I knew nothing about libraries > or programming on the > beast :) Yeah but at least I knew that the 68010 was never used in an original 'miga. Actually I'm at a terrible loss to name the unit that used a 68020 BUT AT LEAST I GOT IT RIGHT! HA! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/ mo 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 17:35:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:35:28 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:50:32 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in the PDP8/e on my desk > with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. Just like noone was talking about replacing this list with a wiki, noone on this thread has talked about *replacing* CPU boards on a vintage machine with an FPGA. What *was* talked about was making an FPGA equivalent processor so that it could be dropped into a board sans CPU to make the board function again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 21 17:41:25 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:41:25 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch><4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: From: "Ray Arachelian" > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There apparently used to be a fellow who implemented pin-compatible >> FPGA replacements for the Z80 and 6502 using Xilinx 4013's, but I >> can't find any details of his work. One of the modern chip >> suppliers, Innovasic, offers drop-in FPGA replacements for old MPUs >> and other circuits. > > Would certainly be fun to figure out how to do this. Are there any > resources or samples out there that would point at how this is done? Do > you start with a schematic of the CPU or the device and convert that to > verilog by hand, or is there some automated way? I have some Perl that I wrote which will transform a netlist of drawings based on the common DEC Mxxx modules into VHDL (generating comments for the stuff left out). Basically it has canned VHDL for various modules that it instantiates based on the connections to the module. I used it to do some VHDL for a TC08. (Unfortunately I can't find a device with enough pins to handle the result :-).) Of course, first you have to create the machine readable netlist for the vintage gear, write VHDL for the various modules, etc. etc. The original suggestion I made was for the 6100 or 6120 cpu-on-a-chip. I'm not aware of any schematic for that. As someone suggested, you'd have to work from the data sheet. Vince From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 17:42:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:42:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <002f01c70dc3$ca1b0260$1204010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <647103.88995.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I'd see it as no different to making do with a > modern fan if the > original had gone south, or replacing the bearings > with a > modern equivalent. Or even powering a C=64 from > something > that lasts longer than a day before giving up the > ghost :-) Bad example. Bad bad bad. LOL LOL only kidding. Replacing a fan or bearings is trivial. The piece will no longer be "stock", and an honest person (if selling it) would have to report it as such. But there is a point where ya really don't have the machine really ticking in there anymore. And you're traversing more and more into dangerous emulation territory. But if you get to that point and that's all you got left, so? > The specific case mentioned was the 6120 where it > seems a > common supply mechanism is to remove them from a > DECmate > board. If an FPGA saves a DM3 I'd see that as a good > thing. > It would be an equally good thing if a handful of > chips > and a wirewrap tool achieved the same objective. HMMMM we don't see that talked about too often. Replacing something more complex with discrete logic. I was tutored on replacing a part of a chip - not the whole chip, with such, by a guy who used to work for AT & T. I have to admit that at the time, I was staring at him like he had 3 1/2 heads... > Not that I have a DM3 or an FPGA (but I do have > several > handfuls of chips and at least two wire-wrap tools - > one > of them mains-driven!). Well you just be sure and put them to good use Antonio! And ball bearings are often superior to sleeves ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/ mo 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 21 17:46:12 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:46:12 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "9000 VAX" > On 11/21/06, Chris M wrote: >> What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old >> unit, and would like to see it operational for years >> to come, what's the problem with using such >> replacements (if available)? >> And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it >> works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? > > The danger is that the real hardware is then trashed. The idea, I thought, was to re-implement some of the old CPU chips with FPGAs, then wire the FPGA into the vintage (or replica) gear to get/keep it working. I do believe that just implementing an FPGA CPU and hooking it straight to your LCD and keyboard is essentially equivalent to running a software emulator (only much slower). Vince From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Nov 21 17:46:41 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:46:41 -0500 Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <426372.54828.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <426372.54828.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45638FE1.4040700@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chris M wrote: > nah sorry. I've had most of those already. I'm looking > for the first five years basically. Thanks regardless. > If you're missing any in that range let me know and I'll send them to you. I'm going to need the space here very soon and these are going to probably end up with the recyclers. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFY4/hCFu3bIiwtTARAg2EAJkBACrE0zI7XXOc9qN1MsFlq4rDiACfaTMX 3bv5TGdiqIksTrgYoL+1XoU= =g/UW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 21 17:51:43 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:51:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Amiga Quiz Message-ID: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chris M wrote: > > --- Adrian Graham > wrote: > >> snip << > Yeah but at least I knew that the 68010 was never > used in an original 'miga. Actually I'm at a > terrible > loss to name the unit that used a 68020 BUT AT LEA ST > I > GOT IT RIGHT! HA! > That's easy. The Amiga CD32 (I own one). I got all the A600 related questions right, which is good as I own two :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 21 18:08:16 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:08:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <426372.54828.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <426372.54828.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061121160703.U90839@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > nah sorry. I've had most of those already. I'm looking > for the first five years basically. Thanks regardless. Check with Sellam; IIRC, I gave him about a dozen copies of each issue of their first year or so. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 18:11:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:11:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061122001108.77970.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > The idea, I thought, was to re-implement some of the > old > CPU chips with FPGAs, then wire the FPGA into the > vintage > (or replica) gear to get/keep it working. > > I do believe that just implementing an FPGA CPU and > hooking > it straight to your LCD and keyboard is essentially > equivalent > to running a software emulator (only much slower). > > Vince I am cognizant of the difference. I just don't understand why either one could or should be considered dangerous. Any solution is a good one. The mechanical components of a floppy drive can be replaced, and hence the feel of using something old can be preserved (hard drives are a tad tougher though). Tubes are tough to replace. Basically everything else besides the electronics is very replaceable. So when you get to that point, what do you do? Either use discrete chips or an FPGA thing. I have not had the time to make one working machine out of the 2 Mindsets I've managed to get my hands on (presumably both have problems). But I did peruse their innards, and there's 2 things that look up at me with piercing stares - custom VLSI chips (video and sound). I want as far as to call the CEO and others of the defunct company, hoping to obtain information on their makeup (I was told the Mindset video processor was the first chip in the world to implement the BitBLT function). No dice. So I guess I'm going to have to melt these down one of these days :O. Probably not anytime soon, but what would be more spectacular then actually producing a drop in replacement for one or both of these things? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Loan for $1698/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 18:20:26 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:20:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <483690.85118.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > That's easy. The Amiga CD32 (I own one). > I got all the A600 related questions right, > which is good as I own two :) Hmm a rather late use of the chip - 1993 (the original Mac II had it in 1987). I think I'm intrigued. There's a few new ones on ePay for around $100, not a colossal sum, but I just don't feel like getting Shanghaied ;). A striking resemblance to the Sega Genesis, and according to Wiki it can use it's controllers. I think I'll save my cash for a 1000 though when it comes along. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. www.nextag.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 21 18:21:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 00:21:37 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <765974.51918.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 21/11/06 23:29, "Chris M" wrote: >> Bah, 15 here because I knew nothing about libraries >> or programming on the >> beast :) > > Yeah but at least I knew that the 68010 was never > used in an original 'miga. Actually I'm at a terrible > loss to name the unit that used a 68020 BUT AT LEAST I > GOT IT RIGHT! HA! The original A4000 was a 68020 wasn't it? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 21 18:25:04 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:25:04 -0500 Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:40:02 MST." Message-ID: <200611220025.kAM0P4FN012347@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >Are you faking the drive to the controller or faking the controller >to the bus? oops, sorry. I misread. I am faking the controller. It would also be cool to fake the drive. I actually plan to do that, next, as I know someone who has 2 CADR's but is ascared to spin up the old T-300 drives. I figured out it would reasonable to simulate the drive itself. It's been done before, many times, by others. I've seen at least 3-4 commercial products which pretend to be rk05's, rl's, smd disks, etc... -brad From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 18:37:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:37:27 -0700 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? Message-ID: Photos: Lot: That fuzzy red thing in the photo is a plastic 1 foot ruler. Any ideas? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 18:39:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:39:50 -0700 Subject: HP2645A / HP2648A in Tobyhanna, PA Message-ID: Lot: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 18:41:38 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:41:38 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11/22/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > FYI: > > I scored 14 out of 30 23 / 30 (but I used to be an Amiga developer). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 21 18:41:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:41:43 -0700 Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:25:04 -0500. <200611220025.kAM0P4FN012347@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200611220025.kAM0P4FN012347 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > Richard wrote: > > > >Are you faking the drive to the controller or faking the controller > >to the bus? > > oops, sorry. I misread. I am faking the controller. How are you interfacing to the bus and is it Q-bus or UNIBUS? It seems that getting chips to talk the right voltages and timing to Q-bus is problematic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 18:46:14 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:46:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <961518.5694.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > The original A4000 was a 68020 wasn't it? Apparently an '030. I remember reading an article that the 68010 was more or less a drop in replacement for the 68k in the Ataris. My AT & T 7300 UNIX Peecee has a 68010. Seems the '020 is still available from Digi-Key, but it ain't cheap. Not likely, but did anyone produce a processor upgrade for the Lisa/MacXL? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Loan for $1399/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 18:48:41 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:48:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <693587.6614.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/22/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > > > FYI: > > > > I scored 14 out of 30 > > 23 / 30 (but I used to be an Amiga developer). > > -ethan Dude, you should have aced it then. AOAS I don't feel so bad. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Loan for $1399/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 19:10:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:10:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd: Fujitsu Micro16s Message-ID: <69858.93343.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> seems to have been more prevalent in Europe then here. There was a review in BYTE though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. www2.nextag.com From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 21 19:19:49 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:19:49 -0500 Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:41:43 MST." Message-ID: <200611220119.kAM1Jn48016567@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >How are you interfacing to the bus and is it Q-bus or UNIBUS? unibus. the chips are not that hard to find. -brad From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Nov 21 21:54:17 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:54:17 -0800 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4563C9E9.2060709@mindspring.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/22/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> >> FYI: >> >> I scored 14 out of 30 > > 23 / 30 (but I used to be an Amiga developer). > > -ethan > I got 9 out of 30. I took the test in German. I don't speak German. Never used an Amiga, either. From davebarnes at adelphia.net Tue Nov 21 22:03:45 2006 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:03:45 -0500 Subject: Radius 81/110 power supply needed Message-ID: <6D4B9406-C566-4D08-8B64-8A12630826AE@adelphia.net> Hello all; I have a Radius mac clone , model 81/110 which needs a new power supply.... it gave up the ghost this morning... anyone have one available? or an entire system they want to part with? Yes I need to keep this old machine alive.... nubus video capture cards, etc... thanks in advance... David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 22:20:49 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:20:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <779000.59624.qm@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I scored 21 points out of 30 possible. --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > FYI: > > I scored 14 out of 30 > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > --- In Commodore_Amiga_Retro at yahoogroups.com, "Paul > Hill" wrote: > > > > Hi Amigos, > > > > Just stumbled across this Amiga quiz while looking > logic simulator software: > > > > http://www.tetzl.de/quiz/quizbegin.cgi > > > > I scored 20 points out of 30. How about you? > > > > -- > > Paul > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Loan for $1698/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 21 23:08:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:08:07 -0800 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <4563C9E9.2060709@mindspring.com> References: <200611212237.kALMbbil028521@keith.ezwind.net>, , <4563C9E9.2060709@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45636AB7.2728.25C5F37B@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2006 at 19:54, Don North wrote: > I got 9 out of 30. > I took the test in German. I got 0 out of 30, but then I didn't take the quiz. :) Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 21 23:19:19 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 00:19:19 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz References: <779000.59624.qm@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c70df5$c3c08070$0b01a8c0@game> I got a 13, not a programmer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven stengel" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: Re: Amiga Quiz > > I scored 21 points out of 30 possible. > > > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 23:24:43 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:24:43 +1100 Subject: Amiga Quiz References: <779000.59624.qm@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c70df6$85fec250$0100a8c0@pentium> 20 outta 30 :-( // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 23:32:31 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:32:31 -0600 Subject: dec cabinet paint (and/was "11/34 done") In-Reply-To: References: <7750650.1164049139909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <010101c70cdd$51655690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <2789adda0611212132x6e6cd069o2c121c9a4f819c5f@mail.gmail.com> Randolf Products made a lot of industrial paint, automotive engine paint, also famous for aircraft coatings. Recently got purchased, and moved and claim to be back in production. On 11/21/06, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Jay West wrote: > > can of the correct mix. Or does an industry standard color coding system > > exist, and these magic numbers are known by a listmember so I can just get > > Yes, it's called RAL (Reichsausschu? f?r Lieferbedingungen), e.g RAL 9010 > is a pure white, RAL 9001 creme white and so on (simply google for RAL). > Whether DEC used this norm, I don't know. > > Christian > From g-wright at att.net Wed Nov 22 00:43:01 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:43:01 +0000 Subject: DEC TU-80 Trouble shooting info Message-ID: <112220060643.27966.4563F17400074A4500006D3E21602806519B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi Tony Yes, there is activity in the address lines at least. I would beleive is gets hung on something. I can see some activity for a breif period in different parts of the board. like it was in self test. Then it looks like it gets hung. Not sure what type of a Processor it uses, but watching the address lines on the roms it starts out Ok. With all of the Error codes in the manual and none being displayed, It would have to be a very low level problem. As Dave pointed out, it's not a true DEC item. So with out much to go off of it would be a long up hill battle. - Jerry -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > It turns on and when you push "logic on" it goes > > into self test and just stays there with out any > > codes displayed. Display just stays at "00" > > voltages look close. DEC manual says system main > > board or voltages off. I guess they just had a > > stack of spare boards to test with. > > Again, I've never worked on one of these, so this is very generic > information. > > If there's a recognisable microprocessor on the controller board, I'd > check it was getting a clock signal, that the reset line wasn't being > held asserted, and then check that there was activity on the bus lines > from said microprocessor. > > This might give you an idea of where to start looking for the fault. > > -tony From doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com Tue Nov 21 18:00:23 2006 From: doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:00:23 +1100 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <200611212341.kALNem9E061455@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611212341.kALNem9E061455@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45639317.2080801@ewa-australia.com> > > All of the offices in the new college building have > > those infernal > > contraptions. Even in the library. NON-ADJUSTABLE > > at that! Every few > > minutes, you have to get up and do jumping jacks to > > get the lights back > > on. An insidious plot to promote physical fitness. >Umm didn't like jumping jacks go out with Jack La >Lanne LOL?? Are there any findings to suggest that >there are any REAL health benefits associated with the activity?? Hmmm, Me thinks that we are forgetting the benefits of a 555 timer, and an I/R LED. Looks like somebody moving *all* of the time, and probably runs for a year on a single 'D' cell. (Bet they didn't see that coming) -- Doug Jackson From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Wed Nov 22 00:55:32 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:55:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: You can download the Xilinx webpack for free. It supports most of the older devices. OTOH, it seems like Altera has a better selection of development boards. Clint On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not vintage, but closely related. > > Rather than write some emulation software, I'd like to see if I can > implement some simpler CPU designs in FPGA. > > I see various development kits out there with various capabilities > (I/O memory, displays, etc.). > > Is there any particular kit that stands heads and shoulders above the > others? Is there a preference between Xilinx and Altera? > > I'm just looking for some pointers here. > > Thanks, > Chuck > From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Wed Nov 22 01:00:05 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 00:00:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: DEC TU-80 Trouble shooting info In-Reply-To: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Jerry, I have a couple of these that are currently occupying space. Too big to ship, but I'm willing to part them out for a reasonable price. Regards, Clint On Tue, 21 Nov 2006, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi > > I have one that i would like to get working but > have not been able to find much real helpfull > info on it. > > These are based on a Computer Pheripherals inc. > tape drive. At least that is whats on the sticker. > > It turns on and when you push "logic on" it goes > into self test and just stays there with out any > codes displayed. Display just stays at "00" > voltages look close. DEC manual says system main > board or voltages off. I guess they just had a > stack of spare boards to test with. > > > Thanks, Jerry > > Jerry Wright > JLC inc > g-wright at att.net > From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Nov 22 03:29:06 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:29:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards Message-ID: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen that I'm trying to identify and locate documentation for. Poking around the web, checking bitsavers. org and Manx, and looking at the Q-bus field guide have so far turned up nothing for me. I'd like to ask all of you Q-bus experts for some input. I've cobbled together a webpage with some images here: http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards At this moment, I'm most interested in information and documentation on the Clearpoint Q-BUS 11B. I'd like to use this in a PDP-11/23+ or 11/73, hoping to get Ultrix-11 or BSD2.9 running. All comments are welcome on- or off-list. Thanks! J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 04:41:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:41:13 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <693587.6614.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <693587.6614.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/22/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > 23 / 30 (but I used to be an Amiga developer). > > Dude, you should have aced it then. AOAS I don't feel > so bad. I never owned an A600, nor have I ever used OS3.9 (I fell off the bandwagon with OS3.1). I still have several Amigas, but lately, I've done mostly emulation of A500-class machines to play ancient games. I don't dislike the Amiga suddenly, but there just isn't the draw that was once there. -ethan P.S. - my newest Amiga is an A4000/030 that I first upgraded from an EC030 to a full 030, then to an 040 with a compatible A3640 CPU board. It's a nice machine, but 16MB of Fast RAM just isn't much once you fire up a web browser. I never invested in an RTG graphics card, nor an A4000 accelerator. I _do_, at least, put every Amiga possible on my LAN, that being more important to me than graphics. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 04:48:16 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:48:16 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <961518.5694.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <961518.5694.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/22/06, Chris M wrote: > > The original A4000 was a 68020 wasn't it? > > Apparently an '030. Yep... a 68EC030, to be specific (no MMU, thus Enforcer won't run, etc). One _can_ replace the 'EC030 with a full 68030, but a full-on SMT rework station is recommended. It's easier to upgrade the CPU board to an 040 or better. > I remember reading an article that the 68010 was more > or less a drop in replacement for the 68k in the > Ataris. The Amiga, too. The difference is that the "MOVcc" instructions are priv'ed on the 68010, and the stack frame can be larger, permitting true instruction restart, and, thus, easy-to-implement page-demand virtual memory, a-la UNIX. One "test" for the 68010 in the Amiga is to run OS1.1 (if possible), then fire up the calculator. You should get a Guru Meditation with a 68010 installed and not a 68000... it's an embedded MOVcc in the application (rather than a call to the OS which _does_ know what to to). The Calculator app that comes with OS1.2 does request the condition codes from the OS rather than executing a potentially illegal instruction in user mode. > My AT & T 7300 UNIX Peecee has a 68010. Yep... it needs that for its virtual memory implementation. It's _possible_ to design a true 68000 system with VM, but much, much harder, typically requiring external state-saving hardware or, as in the case of the Perkin-Elmer workstation, a second 68000 to take care of things while the primary CPU is page faulting. > Seems the '020 is still available from Digi-Key, but > it ain't cheap. Anyone that still carries any of the older CPUs new is likely to have a price that seems painful. OTOH, how many places _still_ carry the '020? You are paying for storage and inventory, not the chip itself. > Not likely, but did anyone produce a processor > upgrade for the Lisa/MacXL? No idea. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 05:11:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:11:21 +1300 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 11/22/06, J Blaser wrote: > I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen that I'm > trying to identify and locate documentation for... > > http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards I don't have any docs on the CompuServe board, but I can give you a historical tidbit or two... Originally, the 36-bit hosts were interconnected with a network of 16-bit machines that routed your session to the right host (GO TRAVEL, GO GAMES...) Eventually, real DEC PDP-11s got too expensive to maintain. At some point (mid-to-late 1980s?), CompuServe started making "node" hardware themselves. I've seen an Intel 486-based Qbus board, but was unable to obtain one. I _do_ have a later enclosure for the X.25 nodes - it's 3 9-slot Qbus backplanes in one largish rack-mount box. 3 reset buttons, 3 run buttons, etc. I have to reverse-engineer the front-panel (it's designed for CompuServe's 486s), but once I do that, I hope to be able to run 3 OSes simultaneously in one box (I'm thinking RT-11, 2BSD, and some other OS). As for your board, I see the 8 sets of 1-9 pads, but they don't look like DE-9 spots for me (the pins aren't numbered the same way, and with "3" linked to "5", and "7" linked to "4", it doesn't have the right feel, but perhaps it's a DLV11J pinout, not a PC-AT pinout). Also, I don't see any RS-232 line drivers. I _do_ see a 68B09 CPU, and 8 2K 6116 SRAMs. I'm guessing that the 68B40 might be a ROM since I don't see any ROMs anywhere else, but perhaps it's soft-loaded from the host. It does have a somewhat conventional DC005/DC004/DC010 Qbus interface. Try here... http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/j-boards.shtml ... for a picture of what looks to be a CompuServe Node serial card. Anyone else have any observations? -ethan From laurens at daemon.be Wed Nov 22 06:57:58 2006 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:57:58 +0000 Subject: Duplicate mails in cc mailing list. Message-ID: <20061122125758.30560.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> Hi, Is it normal that I'm receiving _every_ message on the Classic Computer mailing list twice? I'm subscribed to several mailing lists and only the Classic Computer one has this... Kind regards, Laurens -- http://www.cilinder.be http://www.cilinder.be/syllable From jim at covington.name Wed Nov 22 07:08:42 2006 From: jim at covington.name (Jim Covington) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:08:42 -0500 Subject: Duplicate mails in cc mailing list. In-Reply-To: <20061122125758.30560.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> References: <20061122125758.30560.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> Message-ID: <45644BDA.4020507@covington.name> Are you using MS Outlook? Are you using filters to move it to a special folder? Do you have two rules? That can cause the symptoms you describe. Laurens Vets wrote: > Hi, > Is it normal that I'm receiving _every_ message on the Classic > Computer mailing list twice? > I'm subscribed to several mailing lists and only the Classic Computer > one has this... > Kind regards, > Laurens From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 22 07:33:09 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:33:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <002f01c70dc3$ca1b0260$1204010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <20061122133309.D3DC95820B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by arcarlini at iee.org > > I'd see it as no different to making do with a modern fan if the > original had gone south, or replacing the bearings with a > modern equivalent. Or even powering a C=64 from something > that lasts longer than a day before giving up the ghost :-) > I use a slightly modified C128 supply to power my C64. It has a side benefit of supplying enough current for when I use the SuperCPU. Cheers, Bryan From laurens at daemon.be Wed Nov 22 07:51:05 2006 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:51:05 +0000 Subject: Duplicate mails in cc mailing list. Message-ID: <20061122135105.5333.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> Hey Jim, I just noticed this was sent to cctalk@, apologies if this is off-topic. > Are you using MS Outlook? No, Thunderbird. > Are you using filters to move it to a special folder? Yes. I'm also subscribed to other mailing lists, but I don't have that problem there. They have the same sort of filters though. > Do you have two rules? Yes, one for cctalk and one for cctech. > That can cause the symptoms you describe. > > Laurens Vets wrote: >> Hi, >> Is it normal that I'm receiving _every_ message on the Classic >> Computer mailing list twice? >> I'm subscribed to several mailing lists and only the Classic Computer >> one has this... Laurens -- Laurens Vets http://www.cilinder.be http://www.cilinder.be/syllable From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 22 04:40:08 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:40:08 +0000 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <947812.62344.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <947812.62344.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45642908.6060008@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: >> But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in >> the PDP8/e on my desk >> with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. >> Just as I'd not want to >> put a PC motherboard running an emulator inside that >> case. > > What if the very last thingamabob thingee there went > kaput? Huh! I mean there are no more left on planet > earth. Would you then do the above there with the > whatever you got thing there?? Hmm? Seems unlikely that the whole machine would fail catastrophically in a way that would leave you a case to mount the motherboard in. I'd be inclined to just repair the old machine. If there was a bit that I couldn't get, I'd make a replacement. If the replacement turned out to need to be an FPGA and some appropriate interface, so be it. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 22 04:54:30 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:54:30 +0000 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45642C66.20608@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >> But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in the PDP8/e on my desk >> with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. > > Just like noone was talking about replacing this list with a wiki, > noone on this thread has talked about *replacing* CPU boards on a > vintage machine with an FPGA. > > What *was* talked about was making an FPGA equivalent processor so > that it could be dropped into a board sans CPU to make the board > function again. Well, if it turned out to be easier to make a whole new KDJ-11A from scratch rather than just the chip, then that's what I'd do. Or maybe if I *could* replace just the chip but needed to modify the board to do so, I'd be inclined to look at replacing the whole board with a "modern equivalent", on the off-chance that I could eventually repair the original board. Plus, if you made a KDJ-11A entirely from scratch, you could do other stuff to it - perhaps add an instrumentation port for tracking down other problems (you'd need this for development anyway), or something to drive proper blinkenlights... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 22 05:15:18 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:15:18 +0000 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <45643146.3040001@gjcp.net> J Blaser wrote: > I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen that I'm trying to > identify and locate documentation for. Poking around the web, checking bitsavers. > org > and Manx, and looking at the Q-bus field guide have so far turned up nothing for > me. I'd like to ask all of you Q-bus experts for some input. I've cobbled together a > webpage with some images here: > > http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards > > At this moment, I'm most interested in information and documentation on the > Clearpoint Q-BUS 11B. I'd like to use this in a PDP-11/23+ or 11/73, hoping to get > Ultrix-11 or BSD2.9 running. > > All comments are welcome on- or off-list. > > Thanks! > > J Well, on the CompuServe board, there is a 68B09 which is (I believe) an 8MHz version of the 6809. There's a 68B40 which I think is a CTC (counter/timer), and quite a lot of static RAM. Nothing jumps out at me as being a line-driver, which suggests they're not serial ports. If you notice, the pins are labelled oddly, so using their format pin one is the leftmost of the row of four. From that, pins 4 and 7 on all the top row of sockets (and possibly the bottom row) are all connected together, and pins 9 and 3 on each socket are connected to each other. It looks like a multi-layer board so visually tracing the pins may not be helpful. Gordon. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 22 08:02:45 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:02:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Duplicate mails in cc mailing list. In-Reply-To: <20061122135105.5333.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> Message-ID: <20061122140245.B3808581EE@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Laurens Vets > > Yes, one for cctalk and one for cctech. > And there lies your problem... cctalk will get you moderated mail from cctech and unmoderated mail, while cctech only just gives you the moderated cctech list.. So just unsubscribe from one! :) Cheers, Bryan From ray at arachelian.com Wed Nov 22 08:12:24 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:12:24 -0500 Subject: FPGA's, Emulators, Simulators Vs real hardware (was Re: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits) In-Reply-To: References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45645AC8.9080901@arachelian.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > On 11/21/06, Chris M wrote: > >> >> What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old >> unit, and would like to see it operational for years >> to come, what's the problem with using such >> replacements (if available)? >> And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it >> works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? > > > The danger is that the real hardware is then trashed. > I don't think that this will be the case. We should have replicas and emulators, and the more the merrier. I think that emulators and replicas are an important step in preserving old hardware. Over time, it will get progressively harder to keep old machines running. At least with emulators and replicas you have some way to access the old software and get a feel of what it was about. Otherwise, you lose an important part of history, with no way to replace it. There are probably two schools of thought on this. The purist collector would rather have the machine as is, even if non-functional. The pragmatic collector would want it working. I'm leaning towards the latter. :-) There will always be folks such as ourselves who want the old hardware anyway, and will maintain it, despite the existence of emulators. As far as I know, no one is producing new PDP11's, in their original form nor IBM/360's. Having emulators for them is important, at least in that respect. Having access to replacement parts, whether they are in FPGA's or other modern components, or in the form of whole replica's is also important. Being able to keep the old machines running is the goal (at least my goal), but in the long view, they won't last forever. There are lots of things we can do to keep them running, and we should - but sometimes, that means replacing failed components. I don't view replacing components with modern equivalents any worse than replacing dried up capacitors. We should of course be honest and realize that replacing a part was done and that the machine is no longer in the original state. For example, replacing an old MFM hard drive with a CF card may keep a machine running, but it is no longer in the original state. This isn't to say that we should discard the original non-functioning components either - if you're a purist, you could always replace the failed components back, and return the machine to it's original, but non-functional state. At some point, once you've replaced most of the original parts, it's no longer the original machine, but rather an equivalent in the same case. But unlike old vases, statues, chairs, tapestry, or what not, with machines, the goal isn't to keep them in the exact state you've found them in, but rather to keep them running. A powered off computer that's on display in a museum is in a state that you cannot interact with it, and is no longer useful in the sense that you can't experience interacting with it. Knowing that a given CRT was amber or green isn't the same as seeing it, or feeling the heat and static electricity (and even smells) it gives off , or what happens when there's a magnet nearby, versus seeing output on a modern LCD display. Seeing an old model-m keyboard isn't the same as typing on it, getting tactile and auditory feedback from it, versus a doing the same with a modern cheapo keyboard. It's ok to see something powered off behind a glass window, in a protected environment but the experience is lacking in a lot of ways. Of course, I don't expect that a museum would let us go into some gallery and let us cut our steak with ancient knives, etc., but at least with emulators and replicas, we can do the equivalent of just that - even if it's only a partial experience. More importantly, it will keep the memories of these machines alive - even if we can't share our knowledge and experiences with future generations, at least they may stumble upon some future ftp site that has emulators along with the original software and, manuals and might spend some time learning from them. Replicas are even more important for those who weren't born in the early days and have never built a computer from parts, not just in using the replica computer, but also in building one and understanding how and why it worked. I don't know whether there are some exceedingly wealthy folks on this mailing list, but I certainly can't afford to build my own fab and thus replicate 6502's or am2901's for example. I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could find modern replacements for some of those chips, but at some point, when that isn't possible, what would you do? An FPGA on a board wired to fit a 6502 socket would sound very good if you were in that situation. One issue with emulators is that they may differ from the original hardware in subtle ways that make them incompatible with the original hardware (aka bugs). If you have accurate schematics, at least you can build FPGA's that are near identical to the original hardware, and even slow the timing down to match it. At the same time, regarding emulators, I can load up my notebook with hundreds if not thousands of emulators and fire them up at will anytime and anywhere. It won't be the same as having access to a large building full of working machines, but close enough to keep me smiling. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Wed Nov 22 08:18:17 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:18:17 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch><4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <45645C29.9070901@arachelian.com> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I have some Perl that I wrote which will transform a netlist of > drawings based on the common DEC Mxxx modules into VHDL (generating > comments for the stuff left out). Basically it has canned VHDL for > various modules that it instantiates based on the connections to the > module. I used it to do some VHDL for a TC08. (Unfortunately I can't > find a device with enough pins to handle the result :-).) Any chance you could use two devices? I suppose you'd have to find a way to split the gates between them and then still interconnect them but have enough pins left over for actually interfacing with the original hardware. > > Of course, first you have to create the machine readable netlist for > the vintage gear, write VHDL for the various modules, etc. etc. Is there an open source VHDL compiler (or whatever the tool is) to turn the results of the VHDL into something that can be burned into the FPGA? I'm curious about the process since I've never built anything along these lines. > > The original suggestion I made was for the 6100 or 6120 cpu-on-a-chip. > I'm not aware of any schematic for that. As someone suggested, you'd > have to work from the data sheet. Which would mean that you actually have an emulator of those CPU's instead of a nearly identical part. That's not necessarily bad, except that there may be subtle bugs that may creep in due to misunderstandings or undocumented opcodes, etc. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 08:26:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 03:26:44 +1300 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <45643146.3040001@gjcp.net> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> <45643146.3040001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > J Blaser wrote: > > I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen... > > Well, on the CompuServe board, there is a 68B09 which is (I believe) an > 8MHz version of the 6809. Hmm... I would have thought that it was a 2MHz part, but some googling does show the B variant clocked at 8MHz. If that's the case, I wonder if it's possible to overclock Henk's "Real Console". > There's a 68B40 which I think is a CTC (counter/timer)... That it is. It's also known as a "PTM" - Programmable Timer Module. Some light digging around seems to show that it's a 2MHz part. > and quite a lot of static RAM. lot as in parts? sure. At 2K per chip, not that much actual storage, though. > Nothing jumps out at me as being a line-driver, which suggests they're > not serial ports. If you notice, the pins are labelled oddly, so using > their format pin one is the leftmost of the row of four. From that, > pins 4 and 7 on all the top row of sockets (and possibly the bottom row) > are all connected together, and pins 9 and 3 on each socket are > connected to each other. I agree (as I observed earlier). > It looks like a multi-layer board so visually > tracing the pins may not be helpful. Still... any hints as to where the connector pins go would be handy. I don't think CompuServe made 6809-based Qbus CPUs, so I'd think this is some sort of peripheral, but it's functionality is not obvious to me. So far, we know what CPU it has, it's local SRAM space (16K), and that it has a timer. It must be getting its code from the host since I can't spot any ROMs, but once that load happens, _then_ what does it do? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 08:36:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 03:36:17 +1300 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <6B4DC5FA-4356-41FB-A2E3-32A1B116FE2E@neurotica.com> References: <4561BE63.24502.1F3CD53F@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061120182112.03b65410@mail.30below.com> <6B4DC5FA-4356-41FB-A2E3-32A1B116FE2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/22/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > Go to http://www.digilentinc.com/ and look for "Spartan 3 Starter > Board" under Products. It's $99. That's the one that I have, and > it's wonderful. Lots of I/O (set up for VGA, PS/2 kbd/mouse, async > serial), LED displays and individual LEDs, switches, RAM...and there > are lots of "accessory boards" that plug into this board, like analog > I/O, solderless breadboard with FPGA pin breakouts, etc etc. It > really is good stuff. That looks really cool... shame the memory is 32-bits... my first reaction was that this might make a nice platform for a PDP-10 emulator... use one of the I/O ports for a disk, maybe another one for network and/or serial ports... I suppose one could throw a couple of mobys of RAM on the remaining port. This is all contingent of being able to wedge hunks of a 36-bit CPU in a couple of hundred thousand gates. I wouldn't even know where to begin to estimate. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 22 08:38:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:38:38 -0600 Subject: TU-81+? References: <112120060425.22191.45627FBE00021714000056AF21603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net><008d01c70da5$7ff84350$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20061121223005.98113BA41F0@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <015401c70e43$e8844a10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Tim Shoppa wrote.... > Some of the built-in diagnostics are the same. What's wrong with the > bitsavers manuals for the TU81? /pdf/dec/magtape/tu81/* I did a poorly phrased unix "find" command on bitsavers, and missed that the document was there. ARGH! Thanks for pointing it out to me! Jay West From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 08:40:27 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:40:27 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <45645C29.9070901@arachelian.com> References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch> <4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> <45645C29.9070901@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 11/22/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Is there an open source VHDL compiler (or whatever the tool is) to turn > the results of the VHDL into something that can be burned into the > FPGA? I'm curious about the process since I've never built anything > along these lines. Somebody talked about it but I think an open source downloader is much more useful at this point. Both Xilinx and Altera provide free web-edition software package for their chips. They both work well (I used both). The problem is that maybe in the future the old chips will not be supported with their new software, and the old one expires. vax, 9000 From davebarnes at adelphia.net Wed Nov 22 08:56:16 2006 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:56:16 -0500 Subject: Radius 81/110 power supply needed In-Reply-To: <00a601c70e00$e8ed4080$0b01a8c0@game> References: <6D4B9406-C566-4D08-8B64-8A12630826AE@adelphia.net> <00a601c70e00$e8ed4080$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: Yes... I am sure its dead... I woke up and it had powered itself on and it was making all sorts of high pitched whining sounds, etc etc... (normally these machines have trickle power and power up with the keyboard button). I am just hopeful it did not take out anything in the machine... It has the Videovision Telecast system in it, along with a FWB Nubus SCSI Jackhammer card., Telecast connects to an external 19" rackmount interface box which has Component, S-Video, Composite, and 4 channels of XLR audio in and out. Way ahead of its time when it came out... It was my first non-linear video editing system so I am sentimentally attached to it... :) I am located in Western NY area... Shipping $$$ is not an issue if I can get this guy back on his feet again... thanks David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On Nov 22, 2006, at 1:39 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Are you sure the PS is dead? I know somebody who might have a > system (minus > a cdrom) in the texarkana area (where are you?). > > > Out of curiosity what cards are in the system? > > TZ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Barnes" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:03 PM > Subject: Radius 81/110 power supply needed > > >> Hello all; >> >> I have a Radius mac clone , model 81/110 which needs a new power >> supply.... it gave up the ghost this morning... anyone have one >> available? or an entire system they want to part with? >> >> Yes I need to keep this old machine alive.... nubus video capture >> cards, etc... >> >> thanks in advance... >> >> >> David Barnes >> >> davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net >> OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix >> > From vrs at msn.com Wed Nov 22 09:04:06 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 07:04:06 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch><4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> <45645C29.9070901@arachelian.com> Message-ID: From: "Ray Arachelian" > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I have some Perl that I wrote which will transform a netlist of >> drawings based on the common DEC Mxxx modules into VHDL (generating >> comments for the stuff left out). Basically it has canned VHDL for >> various modules that it instantiates based on the connections to the >> module. I used it to do some VHDL for a TC08. (Unfortunately I can't >> find a device with enough pins to handle the result :-).) > Any chance you could use two devices? I suppose you'd have to find a > way to split the gates between them and then still interconnect them but > have enough pins left over for actually interfacing with the original > hardware. It shouldn't be too hard to split the VHDL into components, if a reasonable functional partition can be decided upon. For the TC08 and similar devices, the issue really comes down to the Posibus interface and the Blinkenlights. Both are key features of the TC08, and both are very pin-hungry. The dectape interface is not that many pins :-). >> Of course, first you have to create the machine readable netlist for >> the vintage gear, write VHDL for the various modules, etc. etc. > > Is there an open source VHDL compiler (or whatever the tool is) to turn > the results of the VHDL into something that can be burned into the > FPGA? I'm curious about the process since I've never built anything > along these lines. I'm just using the free Xilinx tools. They're not open source, but they are free-as-in-beer. >> The original suggestion I made was for the 6100 or 6120 cpu-on-a-chip. >> I'm not aware of any schematic for that. As someone suggested, you'd >> have to work from the data sheet. > > Which would mean that you actually have an emulator of those CPU's > instead of a nearly identical part. That's not necessarily bad, except > that there may be subtle bugs that may creep in due to misunderstandings > or undocumented opcodes, etc. Sure. Though you can revise the FPGA to fix bugs as they are discovered, and can make the timing as accurate as you like. Or even fix lameness in the original, if one were so inclined. That gets away from the original mission of restoring vintage hardware, but it would certainly make my SBC6120 more fun, and still potentially save some Decmates :-). (One of my peeves with the 6120 is that they broke time-sharing. So I actually like the idea of a 6100 with an external MMU better :-).) Vince From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 22 10:21:09 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:21:09 -0500 Subject: Burroughs manuals Message-ID: <01C70E28.6C314F00@mse-d03> Some BBM Medium Systems (B-3500/4700) manuals heading for the dumpster; anybody want 'em enough to pay postage? 1058062 4/73 Fortran Reference Manual ~200pp 1067527 2/74 BASIC Reference Manual ~200pp 1054905 9/71 BASIC and CANDE Reference Manual ~50pp 1054772 10/73 System Software Operational Guide (CP14, CP40, MCP1 & MCP2) ~400pp PTCOPY Operating Guide 10/73 (Printout only) (B-3500/4700 PPT Utility) INSTR5 Misc Utilities (Printout only): CDEDIT, LIBBLD, SYCOPY, etc. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 22 10:34:01 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:34:01 -0800 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA Message-ID: > For the TC08 and similar devices, the issue really comes down to > the Posibus interface and the Blinkenlights. Both are key features > of the TC08, and both are very pin-hungry. Lights can be serially multiplexed to an external holding register / light driver on the panel. A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 10:45:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:45:49 -0800 Subject: New monitors on old machines In-Reply-To: <45639317.2080801@ewa-australia.com> References: <200611212341.kALNem9E061455@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45639317.2080801@ewa-australia.com> Message-ID: <45640E3D.15590.2844B8A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2006 at 11:00, Doug Jackson wrote: > Me thinks that we are forgetting the benefits of a 555 timer, and an I/R > LED. Looks like somebody moving *all* of the time, and probably runs > for a year on a single 'D' cell. At least on the receptacle-box units that I've seen, the duration of the on-cycle as well as the sensitivity can be adjusted by means of a couple of pots located on the body of the sensor, behind the cover plate. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 22 10:48:21 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:48:21 -0500 Subject: More BBM Manuals (Small systems) Message-ID: <01C70E2C.3D2A9820@mse-d03> Some more manuals for anyone willing to pay postage (from Toronto): 1070737 2/76 DC140/L8000/TC1700/TC3500 SL5 Basic Assembler (Also applies to other L & TC models) 1085966 6/75 DC/L/TC System S/W vol 2 - Cassette Routines 1118387 7/80 TP410/420 Microdisk Module Reference Manual 2009379 10/75 L/TC Cassette handler for COBOL programs 1090909 8/80 CMS DataComm Subsystem (B80/800 etc.) 2010831 2/77 B80 Operator Training Course 1/80 B90 CMS Operations Student Materials 1126851 1/80 B91 Operator's Manual 2012712 2/79 ARCS Reference Manuals L/TC Report Writer, CMS Reporter Overview, Misc L/TC/B8 stuff 2015228 6/80 B80/1800/1900 CMS Operation Guide (System Software) 1100757 10/80 CMS Reporter/Domain Dictionary Module User's Manual From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 11:16:30 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:16:30 -0800 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Any ideas? AN/UGC-74. -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 22 06:20:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:20:32 -0600 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I got all the A600 related questions right, > which is good as I own two :) Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only Amiga makes it possible" advertising slogan question "because it can multi-task and run a second OS" (or words to that effect) - surely plenty of systems had existed before the Amiga which could do just that. They might have been big and expensive, but I'm sure it wasn't a new concept. Gawd, extra-halfbrite mode. That takes me back... I got 11 out of 30. I suck. :-) What's the state of play with Amiga emulators these days - are they any good (and complete)? What's archived, on-line software availability like? I think the last time I looked must have been in the first half of the 90's and there was one PC emulator which was a work in progress (and for every person working on the project there were maybe a thousand saying that it just couldn't be done). This thread's made me want to play Shadow of the Beast and that Lotus game again :-) Unfortunately both of my A500 machines are a) back in England and b) rather well buried in the loft under masses of stuff... cheers Jules -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 11:25:16 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:25:16 -0800 Subject: Burroughs manuals In-Reply-To: <01C70E28.6C314F00@mse-d03> References: <01C70E28.6C314F00@mse-d03> Message-ID: > Some BBM Medium Systems (B-3500/4700) manuals heading > for the dumpster; anybody want 'em enough to pay postage? > > 1058062 4/73 Fortran Reference Manual ~200pp > > 1067527 2/74 BASIC Reference Manual ~200pp > > 1054905 9/71 BASIC and CANDE Reference Manual ~50pp > > 1054772 10/73 System Software Operational Guide > (CP14, CP40, MCP1 & MCP2) ~400pp > > PTCOPY Operating Guide 10/73 (Printout only) > (B-3500/4700 PPT Utility) > > INSTR5 Misc Utilities (Printout only): > CDEDIT, LIBBLD, SYCOPY, etc. Send them to bitsavers. -- Will From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Nov 22 11:37:56 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:37:56 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061122123121.05ee5e28@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I got all the A600 related questions right, > > which is good as I own two :) > >Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only Amiga makes it possible" >advertising slogan question "because it can multi-task and run a second OS" >(or words to that effect)... You're asking why adverts aren't using logic?!?!? ;-) > - surely plenty of systems had existed before the >Amiga which could do just that. They might have been big and expensive, but >I'm sure it wasn't a new concept. Tandy Color Computer w/OS-9. However, for the money, they were prolly comparing Mac hardware w/MacOS (more expensive, couldn't multitask) with the Amiga line. >I got 11 out of 30. I suck. :-) I haven't taken the quiz, but I'd prolly suck at it, too. Never had an Amiga until about a year ago, methinks... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 11:37:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:37:58 -0700 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:16:30 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > Any ideas? > > AN/UGC-74. Hm! I should have looked at the item detail to scrape that out myself :-). I'm so used to those "more detail" links being bogus that I've kinda got out of the habit of looking at them. So, googling for AN/UGC-74 seems to imply that this is a "secure teletype". It purports to talk Baudot code as well as ASCII. Does anyone have any idea what makes it "secure"? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 11:40:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:40:50 -0700 Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:19:49 -0500. <200611220119.kAM1Jn48016567@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200611220119.kAM1Jn48016567 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > Richard wrote: > > > >How are you interfacing to the bus and is it Q-bus or UNIBUS? > > unibus. the chips are not that hard to find. A couple of us were talking off-list about ways to interface to Q-bus and transceiver chips for that bus are certainly hard to find (at least we don't know of any sources for the actual DEC transceiver chips or clones). Is the situation different for UNIBUS? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 22 11:56:06 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:56:06 -0500 Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611221256.06147.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 22 November 2006 12:40, Richard wrote: > In article <200611220119.kAM1Jn48016567 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > > Brad Parker writes: > > Richard wrote: > > >How are you interfacing to the bus and is it Q-bus or UNIBUS? > > > > unibus. the chips are not that hard to find. > > A couple of us were talking off-list about ways to interface to Q-bus > and transceiver chips for that bus are certainly hard to find (at > least we don't know of any sources for the actual DEC transceiver > chips or clones). > > Is the situation different for UNIBUS? No. Just find some dead or not very valuable/useful QBUS or UNIBUS boards (like CXY08's for QBUS or most third party boards that aren't memory or disk controller), and desolder the transceivers. Or, find some modern parts which are "close enough" to Q/UNIBUS specs. It probably doesn't need to be an exact match unless you're pushing the bus length. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 12:03:02 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:03:02 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <961518.5694.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <961518.5694.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56BF369D-A94A-41EB-9017-90BC244CD795@neurotica.com> On Nov 21, 2006, at 7:46 PM, Chris M wrote: > I remember reading an article that the 68010 was more > or less a drop in replacement for the 68k in the > Ataris. My AT & T 7300 UNIX Peecee has a 68010. > Seems the '020 is still available from Digi-Key, but > it ain't cheap. Mmmm, tasty AT&T 7300. UNIX SysVr2 with a GUI on a 10MB disk in 512KB of RAM. (well, originally anyway) That's a damn fine machine. I worked in a computer store in a mall in NJ when they came out; we had one in the store. I was very lucky to get one a few years later (way before they were considered "old") and used it nearly to death, then sold it. Years later, about four years ago, a very kind gentleman gave me one. I won't make the mistake of letting this one get away. :-) There's an Ethernet card and an IP stack available for that machine. Sadly the code was very unstable and blew up a lot. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Nov 22 12:15:20 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:15:20 -0600 Subject: Burroughs manuals In-Reply-To: <01C70E28.6C314F00@mse-d03> Message-ID: <001c01c70e62$2be41420$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'll take all the Burroughs manuals. Am I too late? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:21 AM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Burroughs manuals > > Some BBM Medium Systems (B-3500/4700) manuals heading for the > dumpster; anybody want 'em enough to pay postage? > > 1058062 4/73 Fortran Reference Manual ~200pp > > 1067527 2/74 BASIC Reference Manual ~200pp > > 1054905 9/71 BASIC and CANDE Reference Manual ~50pp > > 1054772 10/73 System Software Operational Guide > (CP14, CP40, MCP1 & MCP2) ~400pp > > PTCOPY Operating Guide 10/73 (Printout only) > (B-3500/4700 PPT Utility) > > INSTR5 Misc Utilities (Printout only): > CDEDIT, LIBBLD, SYCOPY, etc. > > > > From vrs at msn.com Wed Nov 22 12:22:57 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:22:57 -0800 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA References: Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow" >> For the TC08 and similar devices, the issue really comes down to >> the Posibus interface and the Blinkenlights. Both are key features >> of the TC08, and both are very pin-hungry. > > Lights can be serially multiplexed to an external holding register / light > driver on the panel. Sure. The TC08 is a Posibus Data Break device, though, and that's 72 pins right there. There are 67 indicators, 15 connections to the drive, and 41 connections to various non-digital (think Gxxx and such) interfaces, for a total of 195 "pins". I also believe the Posibus itself is amenable to multiplexing, with some latching drivers. There's some work to be done to get the thing down to a reasonable pin budget for a non-BGA chip, though :-). These issues come up if you try to push the CPU into an FPGA, too. All the ones I've seen replace all the cool vintage intefaces with a screen and a keyboard :-(. > A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. Nah, you just need yet more Posibus and Data Break cards for your Omnibus machines :-). I like Posibus because it works with more of the -8's, and can be built without hard-to-find receivers and drivers. Vince From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 22 12:29:52 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:29:52 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <961518.5694.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 22/11/06 00:46, "Chris M" wrote: >> The original A4000 was a 68020 wasn't it? > > Apparently an '030. > > I remember reading an article that the 68010 was more > or less a drop in replacement for the 68k in the > Ataris. My AT & T 7300 UNIX Peecee has a 68010. > Seems the '020 is still available from Digi-Key, but > it ain't cheap. > Not likely, but did anyone produce a processor > upgrade for the Lisa/MacXL? Nope, no point - Lisa sunk before such things would've been worthwhile... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 12:39:47 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:39:47 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2006, at 5:43 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> Am i the only one that feels that using modern >> FPGA's to recreate >>> old CPU's is getting dangerously close to just >> running an emulation >>> on a modern PC ? > > What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old > unit, and would like to see it operational for years > to come, what's the problem with using such > replacements (if available)? > And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it > works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? Nothing of course...it depends on whether your focus is the hardware or the software. I've known people who have dumpstered classic machines when they discover emulators, because they think the software is the end-all, be-all of computing technology history. For them, emulators fill 100% of the need...the ability to see the software in action. Personally, I'm interested in both the hardware and the software, with a slight emphasis on the hardware...but my strongest interest is the *architecture*, so implementing it in an FPGA is something that I'm interested in. Despite the opinions of some, I believe there's no commonality at all between implementing a particular architecture in an FPGA and running an emulator on another computer. One can stretch and redefine and whatever if one really wants to see it that way, but I believe it's just that...a stretch. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 12:41:38 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:41:38 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7A4DA404-F6D3-4E4C-8A42-148818F38C4A@neurotica.com> On Nov 21, 2006, at 5:57 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: >> What's with the "dangerous"?? If you have an old >> unit, and would like to see it operational for years >> to come, what's the problem with using such >> replacements (if available)? >> And frankly what's wrong with an emulation? If it >> works, fulfills a need, what's the problem? > > The danger is that the real hardware is then trashed. Exactly. I've seen exactly this happen, by people who should know better. "Just run an emulator!" they say...well no, I'm interested in the hardware. Do I use emulators? Sure I do. I can boot upwards of a dozen different OSs for nearly as many architectures in seconds, right here at my desk. But the real focus of my interest is hardware...which is why I'm buying a bigger house. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 12:42:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:42:03 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <947812.62344.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <947812.62344.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0856B127-2F24-4ACD-9AA2-0AF806A59415@neurotica.com> On Nov 21, 2006, at 6:17 PM, Chris M wrote: >> But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in >> the PDP8/e on my desk >> with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. >> Just as I'd not want to >> put a PC motherboard running an emulator inside that >> case. > > What if the very last thingamabob thingee there went > kaput? Huh! I mean there are no more left on planet > earth. Would you then do the above there with the > whatever you got thing there?? Hmm? Build it. Many people do have that ability, you know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 22 12:42:39 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:42:39 -0800 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA Message-ID: >> A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. > Nah, you just need yet more Posibus and Data Break cards for your > Omnibus machines :-). 8E cabling is horrible. I helped maintain a large TSS/8 configuration (RK8E,TC08,RF08,PC08, lots of 8655's in an expander box) and a similar OS/8 system w/o the expander box, and those heavy shielded BC08s made working on the CPU a nightmare. As you are aware, there is neither cable strain relief nor card guides in those machines. It wasn't uncommon to see an Omnibus card bent 1/4" back because of the cable strain. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 12:49:02 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:49:02 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0077F8E6-79D3-479A-B752-5B14D4196C94@neurotica.com> On Nov 21, 2006, at 6:46 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I do believe that just implementing an FPGA CPU and hooking it > straight to your LCD and keyboard is essentially equivalent to > running a software emulator (only much slower). I strongly disagree with this statement in two ways. My first point of disagreement is this. Doing it in the FPGA, the FPGA's gates and internal signal routing are configured to form the arrangement of circuitry to implement a processor...in REAL HARDWARE. What if someone is unfortunate enough to still be running Windows...So they're running an emulator under Windows, and Windows blows up. Then the emulated system ceases to exist. The performance of the emulated system depends on the other stuff being run on the host system, so if you'rew orking on software, that makes benchmarking or certain types of performance optimization impossible...execution is nondeterministic. Now, if you implement a processor in an FPGA, write an operating system for that processor (possibly even a multitasking one), then write an emulator to run under that...NOW they're equivalent. My second point of disagreement is your statement that doing it in an FPGA is "much slower". Why should this necessarily be the case? You may not be able to clock the FPGA at multiple GHz, but you also don't have the overheard of another operating system and the emulator itself, which is considerable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 22 12:37:17 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:37:17 -0500 Subject: BBM manuals - new home found. Message-ID: <01C70E3D.1157A920@mse-d03> Looks like the Burroughs manuals have a new home, but scans will probably be available eventually. Thanks to everyone who replied. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 22 12:48:58 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:48:58 -0500 Subject: Documentation Message-ID: <01C70E3D.1427E020@mse-d03> My recent post re BBM manuals has left me with a bit of a dilemma; I've got several more boxes of various manuals etc. to dispose of and I'm not sure what's the best way. On the one hand, it benefits everyone to have them in Al's hands, who has the means, time and willingness (thanks, Al) to make them available to us all. On the other hand, anyone who actually owns the relevant equipment would probably like to have original documentation. When I put them up on the list, I'm inevitably going to disappoint someone; should I just offer it privately to Al and rely on him, or? Comments? mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 12:52:12 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:52:12 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <200611202333.kAKNXoPi008967@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4563488E.8050405@bluewin.ch><4562E756.20542.23C4C57F@cclist.sydex.com> <45637492.10102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I have some Perl that I wrote which will transform a netlist of > drawings based on the common DEC Mxxx modules into VHDL (generating > comments for the stuff left out). Basically it has canned VHDL for > various modules that it instantiates based on the connections to > the module. I'd love to do something big with that. > I used it to do some VHDL for a TC08. > (Unfortunately I can't find a device with enough pins to handle > the result :-).) I'd solve that problem this way. Take two FPGAs, implement a high- speed clocked shift register and use them as serializers/ deserializers in each one, with clock, data, and perhaps reset/init pins going between the two chips. Use this setup to "mirror" a set of signals in one FPGA into the other. Then you can move some of your I/O over to the other chip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 22 12:56:10 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:56:10 -0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <002f01c70e67$e14081f0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > I got 11 out of 30. I suck. :-) I thought my 17 was pretty poor. Thanks for making a non-Amiga user feel much better :-) Antonio From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 22 13:00:44 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:00:44 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <765974.51918.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <765974.51918.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1164222044.29293.5.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-11-21 at 15:29 -0800, Chris M wrote: > Actually I'm at a terrible loss to name the > unit that used a 68020 BUT AT LEAST I > GOT IT RIGHT! HA! Lessee... The 68020 was used in the Mac II, and in the Mac LC and at least one model of Sun workstation. The Amiga 1200 and their game console used on of Motorola's economy versions of the chip, too, but not the regular 68020; I don't remember all the extra characters Motorola stuffed into the nomenclature... That's all I know about. There are probably more. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 22 13:02:49 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:02:49 -0500 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11C6248F-6235-4523-86AF-4349B1B701B8@neurotica.com> On Nov 22, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> For the TC08 and similar devices, the issue really comes down to >> the Posibus interface and the Blinkenlights. Both are key features >> of the TC08, and both are very pin-hungry. > > Lights can be serially multiplexed to an external holding > register / light > driver on the panel. Duh, I should read to the end of my mail spool before I reply. ;) This is very much along the lines of what I suggested in my earlier email, but I was envisioning the two sides of that serial link being on the same board. Running a nice narrow cable carrying LVDS signals up to the lamp panel is a very appealing idea. > A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. *drooool* Oh yes. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 13:03:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:03:03 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:48:58 -0500. <01C70E3D.1427E020@mse-d03> Message-ID: In article <01C70E3D.1427E020 at mse-d03>, M H Stein writes: > When I put them up on the list, I'm inevitably going to disappoint > someone; should I just offer it privately to Al and rely on him, or? Al isn't the only one who scans in old docs and makes them available. I've done that for a bunch of stuff I recently acquired and I have some more stuff in the pipeline. So just because something doesn't go directly to Al doesn't mean it won't end up scanned and archived on bitsavers. You could always add the condition that if someone else besides Al takes ownership of the manual that they have to scan it and get it on the net for bitsavers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 13:13:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:13:56 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <0077F8E6-79D3-479A-B752-5B14D4196C94@neurotica.com> References: , , <0077F8E6-79D3-479A-B752-5B14D4196C94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <456430F4.10539.1A7497@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2006 at 13:49, Dave McGuire wrote: > My second point of disagreement is your statement that doing it in > an FPGA is "much slower". Why should this necessarily be the case? > You may not be able to clock the FPGA at multiple GHz, but you also > don't have the overheard of another operating system and the emulator > itself, which is considerable. In my snooping through the net, I think I saw a Z80 FPGA implementation that clocked at 160MHz. How this compares with a real Z80H, I'm not sure, but it would seem to be somewhat faster... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 22 13:14:27 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:14:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <72993.62245.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > Amiga makes it possible" > advertising slogan question "because it can > multi-task and run a second OS" Presumably because it was the only home computer that made it possible (got that one right!). I haven't used Amigas at all really, but I have to admit the ability to multitask at home must have been pretty astounding back in the day. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Loan for $1399/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From vrs at msn.com Wed Nov 22 13:16:22 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:16:22 -0800 Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <0077F8E6-79D3-479A-B752-5B14D4196C94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" > On Nov 21, 2006, at 6:46 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I do believe that just implementing an FPGA CPU and hooking it >> straight to your LCD and keyboard is essentially equivalent to >> running a software emulator (only much slower). > > I strongly disagree with this statement in two ways. > > My first point of disagreement is this. Doing it in the FPGA, the > FPGA's gates and internal signal routing are configured to form the > arrangement of circuitry to implement a processor...in REAL > HARDWARE. What if someone is unfortunate enough to still be running > Windows...So they're running an emulator under Windows, and Windows > blows up. Then the emulated system ceases to exist. The performance > of the emulated system depends on the other stuff being run on the > host system, so if you'rew orking on software, that makes > benchmarking or certain types of performance optimization > impossible...execution is nondeterministic. I concede your point. My comment was directed at the essentially equivalent compromises of the "user experience". > Now, if you implement a processor in an FPGA, write an operating > system for that processor (possibly even a multitasking one), then > write an emulator to run under that...NOW they're equivalent. > > My second point of disagreement is your statement that doing it in > an FPGA is "much slower". Why should this necessarily be the case? > You may not be able to clock the FPGA at multiple GHz, but you also > don't have the overheard of another operating system and the emulator > itself, which is considerable. I believe a modern PC operating in the Ghz can emulate a PDP-8 much faster than an FPGA clocked at, say, 50Mhz can. The software emulation overhead should only be about 20X-30X. I suppose if we include a lot of GUI stuff to emulate blinking lights and so on, it will be a much closer contest, as the FPGA can do all that in parallel. Vince From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 22 12:54:51 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:54:51 +0000 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:37:58 MST." Message-ID: <200611221854.SAA03722@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Richard said: > > In article , > "William Donzelli" writes: > > > > Any ideas? > > > > AN/UGC-74. > > Hm! I should have looked at the item detail to scrape that out myself > :-). I'm so used to those "more detail" links being bogus that I've > kinda got out of the habit of looking at them. > > So, googling for AN/UGC-74 seems to imply that this is a "secure > teletype". It purports to talk Baudot code as well as ASCII. Does > anyone have any idea what makes it "secure"? The only "secure" feature I can find in the info I have is that "imminent memory overflow causes the printer to output memory contents automatically. Normal message output is under the control of the operator" Supports ASCII (ITA5) and Baudot (ITA2). ASCII at 75 to 2400 baud Baudot 45.5, 50 and 75 baud. Memory 32000 chars expandable to 128,000 with bubble memory. 26V dc or 115/230V ac. Mfr. : Honeywell, about 12000 produced for US, Australian, Canadian and Greek armed forces. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 22 13:32:10 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:32:10 -0800 Subject: Documentation Message-ID: > On the other hand, anyone who actually owns the relevant > equipment would probably like to have original documentation. As I mentioned the the post to you, if someone has the gear, they are welcome to the paper copy after it has been scanned. My concern is with getting the material digitized. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Nov 22 13:34:02 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:34:02 -0800 Subject: fake RL-02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4564A62A.5020406@mindspring.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200611220119.kAM1Jn48016567 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > > >> Richard wrote: >> >>> How are you interfacing to the bus and is it Q-bus or UNIBUS? >>> >> unibus. the chips are not that hard to find. >> > > A couple of us were talking off-list about ways to interface to Q-bus > and transceiver chips for that bus are certainly hard to find (at > least we don't know of any sources for the actual DEC transceiver > chips or clones). > > Is the situation different for UNIBUS? > No, not really. UNIBUS and QBUS essentially used the same technology. There was a big long thread on this issue earlier this year on cctech. Search the classiccmp archives for 'unibus transceiver' to get to it. From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Nov 22 13:44:49 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: References: <98388.58428.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <0077F8E6-79D3-479A-B752-5B14D4196C94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:16:22 -0800 > From: Vincent Slyngstad > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Re: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits > > From: "Dave McGuire" >> On Nov 21, 2006, at 6:46 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >>> I do believe that just implementing an FPGA CPU and hooking it straight >>> to your LCD and keyboard is essentially equivalent to running a software >>> emulator (only much slower). >> >> I strongly disagree with this statement in two ways. >> >> My first point of disagreement is this. Doing it in the FPGA, the >> FPGA's gates and internal signal routing are configured to form the >> arrangement of circuitry to implement a processor...in REAL HARDWARE. >> What if someone is unfortunate enough to still be running Windows...So >> they're running an emulator under Windows, and Windows blows up. Then the >> emulated system ceases to exist. The performance of the emulated system >> depends on the other stuff being run on the host system, so if you'rew >> orking on software, that makes benchmarking or certain types of >> performance optimization impossible...execution is nondeterministic. > > I concede your point. My comment was directed at the essentially equivalent > compromises of the "user experience". > >> Now, if you implement a processor in an FPGA, write an operating system >> for that processor (possibly even a multitasking one), then write an >> emulator to run under that...NOW they're equivalent. >> >> My second point of disagreement is your statement that doing it in an >> FPGA is "much slower". Why should this necessarily be the case? You may >> not be able to clock the FPGA at multiple GHz, but you also don't have the >> overheard of another operating system and the emulator itself, which is >> considerable. > > I believe a modern PC operating in the Ghz can emulate a PDP-8 much faster > than an FPGA clocked at, say, 50Mhz can. The software emulation overhead > should only be about 20X-30X. > I suppose if we include a lot of GUI stuff to emulate blinking lights and so > on, it will be a much closer contest, as the FPGA can do all that in > parallel. > > Vince > If any real I/O needs to be done the FPGA will win by a factor of 10s to 100s since there is no OS (or long latency PCI bus) in the way (Just try bit banging a floppy interface with your emulated CPU...) Peter Wallace From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 22 13:50:09 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:50:09 -0500 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1164225009.29293.15.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 10:37 -0700, Richard wrote: > So, googling for AN/UGC-74 seems to imply that this is a "secure > teletype". It purports to talk Baudot code as well as ASCII. Does > anyone have any idea what makes it "secure"? Yes. All video devices leak electromagnetic radiation. With the proper equipment, a spy with a big budget can "read" the screen of a computer in another room by the RF energy it puts out. A project called "Tempest" produces terminals (or computers, or hybrids) which are electronically shielded so well that the NSA's equipment cannot spy on them. I worked for a company that produced this kind of equipment, although NOT the militarized version with the Army/Navy designation you mention above. The bear of it is that the spec's you must meet are classified at just about the most restrictive level there is. It's called "read and commit suicide," or something. So, you take a shot at it, and send in a prototype. You get back a "Yes" or a "No" as to whether the prototype makes the grade, and no other information. If no, keep trying 'til you run out of money. It's risky, but BOY does the government pay a bundle for them when you get a prototype that works. They also want a LOT of them. So, various companies keep trying, and strike it rich if they happen to make one that works, or waste a metric buttload of cash making prototypes that leak too much RF. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From laurens at daemon.be Wed Nov 22 13:48:25 2006 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:48:25 +0100 Subject: Duplicate mails in cc mailing list. In-Reply-To: <20061122140245.B3808581EE@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20061122140245.B3808581EE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4564A989.3030707@daemon.be> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Laurens Vets >> Yes, one for cctalk and one for cctech. >> > > And there lies your problem... cctalk will get you moderated mail > from cctech and unmoderated mail, while cctech only just gives you > the moderated cctech list.. Yeah, that was the problem :) > So just unsubscribe from one! :) Thanks! Laurens -- Laurens Vets http://www.cilinder.be http://www.cilinder.be/syllable From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Nov 22 13:49:18 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:49:18 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <72993.62245.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061122143958.0521e8c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: > > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > > Amiga makes it possible" > > advertising slogan question "because it can > > multi-task and run a second OS" > > Presumably because it was the only home computer that >made it possible (got that one right!). Then whomever wrote the quiz got it wrong... ;-) > I haven't used >Amigas at all really, but I have to admit the ability >to multitask at home must have been pretty astounding >back in the day. Not to me - Tandy CoCos could do it since '81 or '82, when OS-9 from MicroWare was released on that platform.[1] I'd certainly concede that the Amiga was *way faster* at it, but a 68K usually stomps a poor little <2Mhz 8-bitter... ;-) It's entirely possible that other home computer platforms I don't know about could multitask, but I doubt there were many (if any) that could do it before the Tandy CoCo could. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] and Yes, this was true preemptive multitasking... I remember being very disappointed with my first PC running DOS 3.3 (whaddya mean I have to exit one program before starting another???) but with the VGA card & Game Blaster audio card, boy howdy could that rascal play games! 16Mhz '386sx & 2Meg RAM... and it was a Nintendo. ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 22 13:51:34 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:51:34 +0000 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> <45643146.3040001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4564AA46.2000800@dunnington.plus.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/23/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> J Blaser wrote: >> > I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen... >> >> Well, on the CompuServe board, there is a 68B09 which is (I believe) an >> 8MHz version of the 6809. > > Hmm... I would have thought that it was a 2MHz part, but some googling > does show the B variant clocked at 8MHz. If that's the case, I wonder > if it's possible to overclock Henk's "Real Console". No, it *is* 2MHz. The confusion is because if you use the on-chip oscillator, you use a crystal that's 4x the E clock frequency, so an 8MHz crystal for a 2MHz clock. >> There's a 68B40 which I think is a CTC (counter/timer)... > > That it is. It's also known as a "PTM" - Programmable Timer Module. > Some light digging around seems to show that it's a 2MHz part. Yes, though it can use an 8MHz input via the on-board prescaler on one channel. > I don't think CompuServe made 6809-based Qbus CPUs, so I'd think this > is some sort of peripheral, but it's functionality is not obvious to > me. So far, we know what CPU it has, it's local SRAM space (16K), and > that it has a timer. It must be getting its code from the host since > I can't spot any ROMs, but once that load happens, _then_ what does it > do? No guesses from me either, but there's what appears to be a small ceramic TTL PROM near the middle of the board (middle row, 7th from the right). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wizard at voyager.net Wed Nov 22 14:00:16 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:00:16 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <72993.62245.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <72993.62245.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1164225616.29293.19.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 11:14 -0800, Chris M wrote: > I haven't used Amigas at all really, but I have > to admit the ability to multitask at home must > have been pretty astounding back in the day. Why you young whippersnappers don't know the meaning of multitasking at home. Long before the Amiga was even produced, I'd sit at my IMSAI machine, and write code while I watched T.V... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 14:01:04 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:01:04 -0800 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <01C70E3D.1427E020@mse-d03> References: <01C70E3D.1427E020@mse-d03> Message-ID: > My recent post re BBM manuals has left me with a bit of a > dilemma; I've got several more boxes of various manuals etc. > to dispose of and I'm not sure what's the best way. > > On the one hand, it benefits everyone to have them in Al's > hands, who has the means, time and willingness (thanks, Al) > to make them available to us all. > > On the other hand, anyone who actually owns the relevant > equipment would probably like to have original documentation. I have Burroughs equipment, but still I think it should go to bitsavers. Hey, if I want to, I can then try to get them from Al after scanning, if I want. While others have also scanned (and we thank you), bitsavers is still the best archive, and probably has the best chance of long term survival. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 14:10:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:10:01 -0700 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:54:51 +0000. <200611221854.SAA03722@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: In article <200611221854.SAA03722 at citadel.metropolis.local>, Stan Barr writes: > The only "secure" feature I can find in the info I have is that "imminent > memory overflow causes the printer to output memory contents automatically. > Normal message output is under the control of the operator" > > Supports ASCII (ITA5) and Baudot (ITA2). > ASCII at 75 to 2400 baud > Baudot 45.5, 50 and 75 baud. > Memory 32000 chars expandable to 128,000 with bubble memory. > 26V dc or 115/230V ac. > Mfr. : Honeywell, about 12000 produced for US, Australian, Canadian and > Greek armed forces. Stan, where did you find this info? I couldn't find anything listing the supported baud rates on my searches. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 14:11:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:11:15 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:01:04 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > [...] While others have also scanned (and we thank > you), bitsavers is still the best archive, and probably has the best > chance of long term survival. I always email Al with a URL of the scanned PDFs for uploading to bitsavers after I scan stuff. I also email the guy who maintains manx (I forget his name right now) so that they can be found online through that database. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 22 14:26:50 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:26:50 -0600 Subject: Documentation References: Message-ID: <00f601c70e74$8bfbaaf0$6700a8c0@BILLING> William wrote.... >> [...] While others have also scanned (and we thank >> you), bitsavers is still the best archive, and probably has the best >> chance of long term survival. To which Richard replied... > I always email Al with a URL of the scanned PDFs for uploading to > bitsavers after I scan stuff. I also email the guy who maintains manx > (I forget his name right now) so that they can be found online through > that database. I don't want to detract from what others besides Bitsavers have done. Any documentation made available online is a huge plus, a great benefit to all, and is sincerely appreciated. Many thanks to all those who have done it in addition to bitsavers. However, that being said... there is much more to the historical archiving of a document for posterity than slapping it on a scanner and putting it on the web. Al does not simply do that. He has specific expertise in the correct and best way to scan the documents (with regards to settings and such), uses other utilities to process the images before converting to PDF, in many cases hand adjusting them, etc. It is an art, not a "press a scanner button" thing, and Al has it down cold. So long story short, emailing Al with a URL of the scanned PDF is not the best situation (although it's certainly appreciated). The best situation is to get the original to Al so he can scan it himself and thus we all get museum quality results. Just my own two millidollars worth. Jay From vrs at msn.com Wed Nov 22 14:27:42 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:27:42 -0800 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA References: Message-ID: >>> A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. > >> Nah, you just need yet more Posibus and Data Break cards for your >> Omnibus machines :-). > > 8E cabling is horrible. I helped maintain a large TSS/8 configuration > (RK8E,TC08,RF08,PC08, lots of 8655's in an expander box) and a similar > OS/8 > system w/o the expander box, and those heavy shielded BC08s made working > on > the CPU a nightmare. As you are aware, there is neither cable strain > relief > nor card guides in those machines. It wasn't uncommon to see an Omnibus > card > bent 1/4" back because of the cable strain. Sure. But, unless you left off the lights or something, the TC08 would need approximately as many cables as the Posibus+Data Break. Since the Posibus can be shared with other peripherals, it would probably be a wash. Of course, if you skip the TC08 console, you are completely correct :-). Vince From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Nov 22 14:53:46 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:53:46 +0000 Subject: Simulators/Emulators In-Reply-To: <200611221801.kAMI11q4076373@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611221801.kAMI11q4076373@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3D76FD40-1741-45F2-96BE-CA6EF1FCEFBC@microspot.co.uk> Back in the early 70s, I did a computer science degree and was taught that a simulator was a program and an emulator was a microprogram, both to execute the instruction set of another computer, but at a different level. There is another class of simulation I have been considering lately. For machines like my ICT 1301, which I would guess has about ten thousand gates, it would be possible to write a program which does a gate level simulation on a fast machine like my 2GHz Mac. You could even simulate the signals in the machine, hook up a simulated oscilloscope and look at the waveforms. The slow rise times and overshooting might not be possible to show of course, but maybe even this could be added. You could even simulate logic faults for educational purposes and show how they used to be tracked down via the console, the logic diagrams and an oscilloscope. Now that really would be a historical/educational tool. Or am I just dreaming? Could I OCR the old line printer listings of the interconnection lists and use them to build the simulator? Simulating the audio output (which is pulsed on most conditional branch instructions) is another issue I am thinking about. Modern computers can obviously make the sounds, but how do I convert from a live stream of speaker reversals into what a modern machine needs? Roger. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 14:55:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:55:40 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:26:50 -0600. <00f601c70e74$8bfbaaf0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00f601c70e74$8bfbaaf0$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > However, that being said... there is much more to the historical archiving > of a document for posterity than slapping it on a scanner and putting it on > the web. Al does not simply do that. He has specific expertise in the > correct and best way to scan the documents (with regards to settings and > such), uses other utilities to process the images before converting to PDF, > in many cases hand adjusting them, etc. It is an art, not a "press a scanner > button" thing, and Al has it down cold. While I agree with the sentiment that scanning old documents isn't something that can be done nonchalantly, I disagree with the implication that Al is the only one who has the Special Knowledge to scan old documents into a form worthy of bitsavers. Being someone who has worked in graphics, I'm probably more aware than most of how to get the best results out of a particular original and a particular scanner. > So long story short, emailing Al with a URL of the scanned PDF is not the > best situation (although it's certainly appreciated). The best situation is > to get the original to Al so he can scan it himself and thus we all get > museum quality results. The assumption here, as above, is that only Al has the Special Knowledge of how to scan documents. Al has many things on his "to do" list. Certainly its better for me to scan using the same settings and techniques that Al would use and make the end result available to him than to make him the bottleneck for all document scanning. ISTR that we discussed document scanning on this list and Al told us the kinds of things that he does when scanning. I don't recall anything magical, either in equipment or techniques, that made Al's scanning methods beyond what I could do myself. I do recall that some of the things he mentioned might not be obvious to someone who hasn't scanned documents that are ultimately intended for OCR at some point, but then again not all of us are complete dunderheads when it comes to document scanning either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 15:04:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:04:09 -0700 Subject: Simulators/Emulators In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:53:46 +0000. <3D76FD40-1741-45F2-96BE-CA6EF1FCEFBC@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <3D76FD40-1741-45F2-96BE-CA6EF1FCEFBC at microspot.co.uk>, Roger Holmes writes: > There is another class of simulation I have been considering > lately. For machines like my ICT 1301, which I would guess > has about ten thousand gates, it would be possible to write a > program which does a gate level simulation on a fast machine > like my 2GHz Mac. You could even simulate the signals in > the machine, hook up a simulated oscilloscope and look at > the waveforms. The slow rise times and overshooting might > not be possible to show of course, but maybe even this could > be added. You could even simulate logic faults for educational > purposes and show how they used to be tracked down via the > console, the logic diagrams and an oscilloscope. Now that > really would be a historical/educational tool. Or am I just dreaming? Such things exist already to simulate chip designs. There are a number of gate-level simulators out there, probably even some free ones by now. When you write verilog/VHDL design code, this gets compiled into gates. You might do gate-level simulation on the design at that point and look at I/O signals and so-on. IIRC, gates are compiled into instances of "standard cell libraries" for ASIC designs and then manufactured. (The standard cell implements a very small scale logic component and specifies all the transistor layout for implementing the logic.) For an FPGA, your gate-level design is compiled into an FPGA configuration and is very similar to "standard cells" except that each and every cell is identical in size and number of I/Os, whereas in an ASIC the standard cells will be different sizes depending on the complexity of the logic and amount of I/O. > Could I OCR the old line printer listings of the interconnection lists > and use them to build the simulator? You could use them to capture the design and then simulate the design, yes. > Simulating the audio output (which is pulsed on most conditional > branch instructions) is another issue I am thinking about. Modern > computers can obviously make the sounds, but how do I convert > from a live stream of speaker reversals into what a modern > machine needs? You have to simulate the analog effects of the pulsed output to generate a waveform. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 22 15:43:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:43:21 -0600 Subject: Documentation References: Message-ID: <002001c70e7f$3cf43020$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > While I agree with the sentiment that scanning old documents isn't > something that can be done nonchalantly, I disagree with the > implication that Al is the only one who has the Special Knowledge to > scan old documents into a form worthy of bitsavers. I did not say Al has unique Special Knowledge (although he may, it's certainly not MY area of expertise to know one way or the other). I did imply that Al has Special Experience, which some others certainly may have as well. I did not say his knowledge or experience were necessarily unique. However, what I did imply (and in regard to your last phrase above) - is that bitsavers is his, and HE decides what is acceptable for documents to be included in the archive. And if he feels that the best result is scanning it himself, that's his call. If he wishes to accept scans from others, that's his call too. I'm all behind whatever he wishes to do. The quality (and ubiquity) of his work speak loudly enough that I certainly don't dare question his preferences :) Since Al is the only one who can actually put a document into bitsavers, I suspect it is his call ;) I definitely don't think bitsavers should be the only archive people contribute to! But it is by far (IMO) the best archive according to most any metric chosen. And with it mirrored on approximately 9 servers in approximately 3 countries it's got a great chance of longevity. As I did in my previous email, I praise other archives and the work they have done, and don't feel it necessary to repeat here. My own personal decision is when I get a spare manual no one has, send it to Al. Everyone should make their own decisions of course. > but then again not all of us are complete dunderheads when it comes to > document scanning either. Not all of us are, nor did I say that. I certainly am however; graphics is blackmagic voodoo to me. Jay West From trag at io.com Wed Nov 22 15:31:07 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:31:07 -0600 Subject: wtd: Fujitsu Micro16s In-Reply-To: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:10:06 -0800 (PST) >From: Chris M >Subject: wtd: Fujitsu Micro16s >To: talk >Message-ID: <69858.93343.qm at web61012.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >seems to have been more prevalent in Europe then here. >There was a review in BYTE though. There was (and may still be) a fellow on Ebay selling a pair for $6 shipped. Ah, here it is I bought a couple from him but have not done anything with them. They came wrapped in antistatic wrap that was bundled up in tape. I don't know if they were already bent, or if I bent the pins undoing the tape, but either way I was not impressed with his packaging job. It's been a while, so my memory is hazy, but somehow I was able to request a CD or DVD of development software from Fujitsu. The European Fujitsu sites seem to have better information on them. Plus I don't think I saw any development boards advertised anywhere except on the European site. However, when I started thinking at the fine detail level, i.e. how do I develop software and run it on this board, as opposed to the coarse detail level, i.e. this board has enough IO pins and memory to do what I want, I realized that having a decent development kit would be very important. The tiny bits of obscure information that the sellers publish about their development kit totally put me off compared to some of the great information that's out there for kits for the Freescale 9S12 for example. So ultimately, I decided that the Fujitsu MCUs will probably stay in a drawer because it's just to big a pain and risk to get a decent development board for them. Of course, my research may have been incomplete or inaccurate and I'd be happy to be shown that it was. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Wed Nov 22 15:44:05 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:44:05 -0600 Subject: Radius 81/110 power supply needed In-Reply-To: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:03:45 -0500 >From: David Barnes >Hello all; > >I have a Radius mac clone , model 81/110 which needs a new power >supply.... it gave up the ghost this morning... anyone have one >available? or an entire system they want to part with? > >Yes I need to keep this old machine alive.... nubus video capture >cards, etc... It's the same as the Apple 8100 power supply. You'll have better luck finding a power supply for the 8100. Here's one: but that seller (KPS101) plagiarized my Item Description for Beige G3 ROMs so I would love it if folks would refuse to buy from him/her/it. Actually, he continues to plagiarize it to this day when he has them available to sell. Ah, here we go and cheaper too And finally from Olde Mac Milt This one is in the middle price-wise, but I've dealt with Milt before and he's an upstanding guy. Oh, and he has a 225 watt version as well, the others are 200 watts: What kind of video capture are you using in there? Is it a Video Vision Studio? I have one I haven't hooked up yet. One thing that's keeping it down on the list of things to do next is all the (old) talk about fiddling to get decent frame rates. Is it really that hard? Or with a modern hard drive connected to a JackHammer, should one be able to do just fine? Is it difficult or tricky to record the sound along with the video and have them synchronized? And finally, any tools to convert the MJPEG to modern video formats? Jeff Walther From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 22 10:57:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:57:02 -0600 Subject: Simulators/Emulators In-Reply-To: <3D76FD40-1741-45F2-96BE-CA6EF1FCEFBC@microspot.co.uk> References: <200611221801.kAMI11q4076373@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3D76FD40-1741-45F2-96BE-CA6EF1FCEFBC@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4564815E.2030601@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: > There is another class of simulation I have been considering > lately. For machines like my ICT 1301, which I would guess > has about ten thousand gates, it would be possible to write a > program which does a gate level simulation on a fast machine > like my 2GHz Mac. You could even simulate the signals in > the machine, hook up a simulated oscilloscope and look at > the waveforms. The slow rise times and overshooting might > not be possible to show of course, but maybe even this could > be added. You could even simulate logic faults for educational > purposes and show how they used to be tracked down via the > console, the logic diagrams and an oscilloscope. Now that > really would be a historical/educational tool. Or am I just dreaming? Certainly I don't see why you couldn't implement this at the gate level; I suppose it's just a massive data structure of signal lines and logic functions. Maybe for it to work accurately you have to simulate the propagation delays of the various logic gates - but assuming it's all straight digital logic I would have thought it would work. > Could I OCR the old line printer listings of the interconnection lists > and use them to build the simulator? Gah. Possibly, depending on quality. At least something that old should be in a pretty regular typeface, so if the OCR procedures get any of it right then they stand a good chance of doing the whole lot. It'll still be a pain to proof-read though! > Simulating the audio output (which is pulsed on most conditional > branch instructions) is another issue I am thinking about. Modern > computers can obviously make the sounds, but how do I convert > from a live stream of speaker reversals into what a modern > machine needs? Well I suppose on a lot of Unix systems it's just a case of opening /dev/audio and spitting data down the line - maybe the mac's no different? cheers Jules From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 22 16:01:44 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:01:44 +0100 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> <45643146.3040001@gjcp.net> <4564AA46.2000800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7F8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Pete wrote: >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Well, on the CompuServe board, there is a 68B09 which is (I believe) an >>> 8MHz version of the 6809. >> >> Hmm... I would have thought that it was a 2MHz part, but some googling >> does show the B variant clocked at 8MHz. If that's the case, I wonder >> if it's possible to overclock Henk's "Real Console". > >No, it *is* 2MHz. The confusion is because if you use the on-chip >oscillator, you use a crystal that's 4x the E clock frequency, so an >8MHz crystal for a 2MHz clock. > >>> There's a 68B40 which I think is a CTC (counter/timer)... >> >> That it is. It's also known as a "PTM" - Programmable Timer Module. >> Some light digging around seems to show that it's a 2MHz part. > >Yes, though it can use an 8MHz input via the on-board prescaler on one >channel. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York I left most of the original message intact. Yes, you can run the Blinkenlight Core Board (and I/O board) with an 8 MHz Xtal. The 6809 (B version) will run at 2 MHz, due to the E and Q clock generation. The 6809 uses a 4 MHz Xtal and one instruction cycle is one microsec. The 68A09 runs with a 6 MHz Xtal and the cycle is 666 ns. The 68B09 uses an 8 MHz Xtal and the cycle is, you guessed, 500 ns. The CPU "speed" equal clock frequency divided by 4. I hope I have the nanosec numbers right. The pdp8/e simulation runs at best performance, with a 68B09 at 8 MHz. All parts of the Blinkenlight Board set can handle that frequency. Also, for my floppy disk interface, to read FAT-12 floppy (DD, not HD) you really need that speed, otherwise you can not keep up the data rate the FDC presents the data stream. See my project folder ... The PTM (6840) has three 16-bit timer/counters IIRC, but you can find that in any old Motorola handbook. In a different thread, now on CCtalk (FPGA) is an interesting discussion. Till now I haven't said much, as I am just starting. Like Vince, I bought an FPGA from Xess. Actually we bought 4 with 4 people ... I just haven't had the time to start with my Xess module! There is a core for that FPFA that simulates a 6809 at 50 MHz, effectively giving an 80 ns cycle time! That would make the pdp8/e simulation run at the speed of the pdp8/s. The ultimate will be of course, not to simulate the 6809 in the FPGA, which in software simulates the pdp8, but let the FPGA simulate the pdp8 right away. With the I/O latches connected to the FPGA you would have a nice hardware simulation of the 8/e ... Just my thoughts. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 16:08:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:08:21 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:43:21 -0600. <002001c70e7f$3cf43020$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <002001c70e7f$3cf43020$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > [...] I did > imply that Al has Special Experience, which some others certainly may have > as well. Well, we discussed it on the list a while back (I think I was even the one bringing it up) and to the best of my knowledge the scans I've been providing are up to Al's standards, since they have been incorporated into bitsavers. I even wrote up a web page with my advice on scanning so that others can create scans that match the same quality of bitsavers. In general, I think its a bad idea to have everything in any community funnel through a single person. What happens if Al (knock on wood) should get injured and can't do scans anymore? If we adopted the "well, just let Al scan everything because he knows how to do it" and it never gets documented on what is the best way to scan documents, then we lose everything connected to document scanning when we lose Al. Its the same reason I don't really like the KB thing -- everything is going through one person and no matter how devoted that one person is, they will always end up being the bottleneck for someone else. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 22 15:57:04 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:57:04 +0000 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <11C6248F-6235-4523-86AF-4349B1B701B8@neurotica.com> References: <11C6248F-6235-4523-86AF-4349B1B701B8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4564C7B0.4050702@dunnington.plus.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 22, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. > > *drooool* Oh yes. :-) Can I have one too, please? ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 22 16:10:16 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:10:16 -0500 Subject: Radius 81/110 power supply needed References: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00ba01c70e82$fdda54b0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Walther" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Radius 81/110 power supply needed > What kind of video capture are you using in there? Is it a Video > Vision Studio? I have one I haven't hooked up yet. One thing > that's keeping it down on the list of things to do next is all the > (old) talk about fiddling to get decent frame rates. Is it really > that hard? Or with a modern hard drive connected to a JackHammer, > should one be able to do just fine? Is it difficult or tricky to > record the sound along with the video and have them synchronized? > And finally, any tools to convert the MJPEG to modern video formats? > > Jeff Walther A modern SCSI HD connected to a Jackhammer should do just fine, you can get over 10MB/sec which is about all the Nubus bus will handle anyway. There are known issues using Premiere with the Videovisions and sync issues, they should be resolved with Premiere 4.2.1. Make sure you are using the latest drivers for the Videovision card. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 22 16:13:16 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:13:16 +0100 Subject: Documentation References: <002001c70e7f$3cf43020$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7F9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jay wrote: >... >I definitely don't think bitsavers should be the only archive people >contribute to! But it is by far (IMO) the best archive according to most any >metric chosen. And with it mirrored on approximately 9 servers in >approximately 3 countries it's got a great chance of longevity. As I did in >my previous email, I praise other archives and the work they have done, and >don't feel it necessary to repeat here. My own personal decision is when I >get a spare manual no one has, send it to Al. Everyone should make their own >decisions of course. > >> but then again not all of us are complete dunderheads when it comes to >> document scanning either. >Not all of us are, nor did I say that. I certainly am however; graphics is >blackmagic voodoo to me. > >Jay West Scanning the document is most of the work in wall-time clock seconds. My scans are at 600 dpi, 8-bit grey scale, and thus the "PDF" files are huge (actually they are TIFF with a PDF "jacket" to make them easy to read). I transfer them to Al, and Al does post-processing, squeezing them down to approx 30-40% of the original size. See for example the XXDP listings. I scanned all of those. You don't want to know the original file size! A reasonable scanner will give results that are always better for somebody else who does not have the document. Any documentation, regardless the quality is better than no documentation at all! my 2 ct, Henk. PS. Al, if you read this, it would be great if you get an ftp server up and running again... This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 22 16:17:40 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:17:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Amiga Quiz Message-ID: <200611222217.kAMMHe4H077849@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I got all the A600 related questions right, > > which is good as I own two :) > > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > Amiga makes it possible" > advertising slogan question "because it can > multi-task and run a second OS" I have no idea. I knew it was either that one or the "it can have 4096 colours on a screen". I guess it depends how you define "multi-tasking". As an Amiga owner with a A600 (with 2MB) it can run say up to 10 applications at once (depending how much memory they eat up) theoretically. Whether it can or not I don't know, since I generally only have 2 or 3 things running at once (eg. Workbench, a music program and AMOS Pro). > (or words to that effect) - surely plenty of syste ms > had existed before the > Amiga which could do just that. They might have be en > big and expensive, but > I'm sure it wasn't a new concept. > > Gawd, extra-halfbrite mode. That takes me back... > > > I got 11 out of 30. I suck. :-) > > > What's the state of play with Amiga emulators thes e > days - are they any good > (and complete)? What's archived, on-line software > availability like? I think Firstly I apologise if the next bit seems like free advertising, but it's all relevant :) Amiga Hardware ---------------- Various "new projects" in the pipeline, including a PPC based machine and Amy '05. New "Amiga's" since Commodore went under include The Pegasos and the AmigaOne. There are 2 sites I can point you to for a pretty near complete (if not complete) archive of info about Amiga hardware. The first is Commodore Amiga Retro ( http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com ) and includes loads of decent sized pictures of all the various Amiga's, and other retro computers. The other one is known as the Big Book Of Hardware. Sorry, I don't have an URL for it as I have never visited it. But from what I have heard about it, it has a complete archive of all Amiga hardware, including pripherals. Amiga emulators ----------------- Don't really know much about them. There are a few out there. UAE is one of them, but I forget what it stands for. Amiga software ---------------- http://www.lemonamiga.com has a huge archive of info about loads of Amiga games, some movie clips and some interviews with famous Amiga people. http://www.aminet.net is a huuuuge online database of games, utilities, tools, libraries and other Amiga stuff developed by bedroom (aka homebrew) coders. There are atleast 6 mirror sites based all over Europe and in the US. Ownership of Aminet recently changed hands (either this year, or last year) and so should be around for quite a while yet. I recently bought a modem for my A600 so I could upload my stuff onto there, but before I could do so I ran into problems (my original Amiga 600 died). Amiga magazines ----------------- There are only 2 magazines that I know of: Amiga Forever is a Germany-based magazine which AFAIK is in English. There are special issues available that come with CD's/DVD's full of software, video's and other stuff. Total Amiga is a UK-based magazine which comes out quarterly, and is the one I buy. Due to high demand in Europe and the US it is professionally printed in the UK and in Canada. It includes a round-up of the latest Amiga news, the latest info about OS4, interviews with people such as Eric Schwartz and Dave Haynie. Acquiring Hardware/Software ---------------------------- There are also various online shops to buy Amiga software and hardware including: http://www.amikit.com http://www.amigadeals.co.uk and an online advertising board for buying / selling Amiga kit: http://www.amibench.org (or .net , both work) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. Sorry if that was too long, or if anyone fell asleep! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 22 16:09:54 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:09:54 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only Amiga makes it possible" > advertising slogan question "because it can multi-task and run a second OS" > (or words to that effect) - surely plenty of systems had existed before the > Amiga which could do just that. They might have been big and expensive, but > I'm sure it wasn't a new concept. I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an Amiga OS program at the same time. > I got 11 out of 30. I suck. :-) That's the same as I got, which I thought was not too bad considering I have avoided Amigas of all sorts. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 16:28:26 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:28:26 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <1164222044.29293.5.camel@linux.site> References: <765974.51918.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <1164222044.29293.5.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-21 at 15:29 -0800, Chris M wrote: > > > Actually I'm at a terrible loss to name the > > unit that used a 68020 BUT AT LEAST I GOT IT RIGHT! HA! > > > Lessee... The 68020 was used in the Mac II, and in the Mac LC and > at least one model of Sun workstation. The Amiga 1200 and their game > console used on of Motorola's economy versions of the chip, too, but not > the regular 68020; I don't remember all the extra characters Motorola > stuffed into the nomenclature... The usual variants were "EC" ("embedded controller") and "LC" ("low cost"). The 68EC020 has a narrower address bus (24 bits vs 32), limiting the amount of FAST mem to 10MB (16MB total address space), while the 68EC030 and 68EC040 are lacking in an onboard MMU (the 68LC040 is lacking an onboard floating point processor). You'd be unlikely to see an 'EC030 or 'EC040 in a UNIX workstation because an MMU is just too handy for an OS that's heavily intertwined with virtual memory. OTOH, since AmigaOS has one address space for all processes, it doesn't need an MMU (but can optionally take advantage of one through programs like Enforcer). In the realm of 68K Macs, though, I'm not sure if they can or do use an MMU if present. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 16:29:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:29:46 -0700 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:09:54 +0000. <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: In article <4564CAB2.70805 at dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > Amiga OS program at the same time. I thought this was only possible with the later models and the Janus card? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 22 16:39:37 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:39:37 -0800 Subject: Documentation Message-ID: > In general, I think its a bad idea to have everything in any community > funnel through a single person. What happens if Al (knock on wood) > should get injured and can't do scans anymore? If we adopted the > "well, just let Al scan everything because he knows how to do it" and > it never gets documented on what is the best way to scan documents, > then we lose everything connected to document scanning when we lose > Al. The only thing that currently has me as the bottleneck is actually putting things onto the web site. I have loaned several people now scanners and as you say, it isn't a good thing to rely on a single person to do all of the work. One area that would be useful would be having others help in the cleanup/post-processing of the raw scans. There is only about 25% of what I've scanned currently on line. The things I try to concentrate on are materials that are rare and out of the mainstream. There are others, for example, that are taking care of microcomputer docs. I also like to collect material on digital magnetic storage devices, for their use in data recovery. I really don't claim to have any 'special knowledge'. There is a particular document processing flow that I prefer to use to have the documents have a consistant 'look' to them. It does change over time, though. I have started adding color cover pages recently as well as more grayscale pictures. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 16:41:20 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:41:20 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611222217.kAMMHe4H077849@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611222217.kAMMHe4H077849@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > > Amiga makes it possible" > > advertising slogan question "because it can > > multi-task and run a second OS" > > I have no idea. I knew it was either that one > or the "it can have 4096 colours on a screen". > I guess it depends how you define "multi-tasking". Running multiple tasks? ;-) In the context of the day, compare it to MS-DOS (seriously single-tasking), or older versions of the MacOS, which did have "Switcher" to hold multiple tasks at once, but a) used "cooperative multitasking" (i.e., the application developer had to code in routines to release the OS when it was convenient) and b) coding practices of the day assumed that the application had an entire 1MB Mac Plus to itself, limiting the usefulness of a 4MB Mac (large and expensive at the time). > As an Amiga owner with a A600 (with 2MB) it > can run say up to 10 applications at once > (depending how much memory they eat up) > theoretically. Whether it can or not I don't > know, since I generally only have 2 or 3 things > running at once (eg. Workbench, a music > program and AMOS Pro). Exactly... sometime around 1986 or so, Gates, et al., said that customers weren't interested in multitasking because you "couldn't" multitask with less than 2MB, anyway (i.e., "our products are bloated, so unless you spend more money on memory, don't bother us about multitasking"). The technical demonstration of the exception (Amiga) back in 1985 was to open multiple dotty windows (a demo on the Workbench disk)... it was a light-weight app that you could open over a dozen times on a 512KB Amiga (all CHIP mem) and watch draw workbench-colored dots rapidly in the windows. It wasn't a practical demonstration, since any program capable of doing heavy lifting would need more than 35K per invocation, but it did show off that the OS could handle several tasks firing off at once, unlike DOS or MacOS at the same time. Back in the day, I'd routinely have a MicroEmacs window open to some C code and let the compiler (Lattice C) do its thing while I poked around some bit of code or another. One really practical demonstration was with AmigaOS 1.2: I used to hang a VT220 off the serial port and do a "newcli AUX:" to get a CLI running off the serial port, then edit code while my housemate played "Silent Service". To me, the Amiga wasn't _just_ multitasking, it was *multiuser*. Stick that in your DOS and smoke it! > Amiga emulators > ----------------- > > Don't really know much about them. There are > a few out there. UAE is one of them, but I > forget what it stands for. Originally, it was "Unusable Amiga Emulator", sort of a joke name... once it became usable, it morphed into "Universal Amiga Emulator". I've used it - for A500-compatible games, it's rather nice. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 22 16:42:05 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:42:05 -0800 Subject: Documentation Message-ID: > PS. Al, if you read this, it would be great if you get an ftp server up > and running again... I no longer have direct control of this, since Jay has generously offered the space/bandwidth for the main site. I assume you mean ftp access to the archive? From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Nov 22 16:42:58 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:42:58 -0700 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <200611221800.kAMI0Bw3076343@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611221800.kAMI0Bw3076343@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4564D272.6030500@rogerwilco.org> Ethan wrote: > I don't have any docs on the CompuServe board, but I can give you a > historical tidbit or two... (snip)... > Ah, thanks for the education. Very interesting. Are there any good online sources of historical infomation about CompuServe and their data center? I should google..... > Try here... http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/j-boards.shtml ... for a > picture of what looks to be a CompuServe Node serial card. > > Hmmm...yes, too bad Jim doesn't have the picture behind the thumbnail online anymore. Would be interesting to see up close. Thanks for the link. J From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 16:43:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:43:57 -0800 Subject: wtd: Fujitsu Micro16s In-Reply-To: References: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <4564622D.11975.DABD15@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2006 at 15:31, Jeff Walther wrote: > There was (and may still be) a fellow on Ebay selling a pair for $6 > shipped. Ah, here it is > Wasn't the Micro 16s a PeeCee-type machine that could use different CPU boards? (Z80, 8088, 68K maybe?). I've got a couple of diskettes from one in my collection, but I can't say that I've seen one up close and in person. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 16:46:43 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:46:43 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Richard wrote: > > In article <4564CAB2.70805 at dunnington.plus.com>, > Pete Turnbull writes: > > > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > > Amiga OS program at the same time. > > I thought this was only possible with the later models and the Janus > card? If by "later models", you mean the A2000, the second model to ship (1987?), then yes. The A2088 card does let you run DOS on an Amiga equipped with Zorro slots, eliminating unexpanded A1000s and A500s (contemporary with the A2088). -ethan From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Nov 22 16:55:58 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:55:58 -0500 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >In article <4564CAB2.70805 at dunnington.plus.com>, > Pete Turnbull writes: > > > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > > Amiga OS program at the same time. > >I thought this was only possible with the later models and the Janus >card? And if this is the case, wouldn't a PC with a Trackstar board qualify as well, as it could run MS-DOS (natively) and AppleDOS/ProDOS (whatever - I was never that big into Apples) on the Trackstar? I _think_ the Trackstar cards were available before the Amiga hit the scene, didn't it? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Nov 22 16:52:51 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:52:51 +0100 Subject: Documentation References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7FB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Al Wrote: >> PS. Al, if you read this, it would be great if you get an ftp server up >> and running again... > >I no longer have direct control of this, since Jay has generously offered >the space/bandwidth for the main site. > >I assume you mean ftp access to the archive? Yes, but not for downloading manuals. For uploading any new scans. I must check what's not yet up, I have another pile of XXDP listings ... but if Jay can provide an ftp upload directory, that's okay with me, as long as my scans become available to everybody. I'm not scanning stuff for myself :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 22 16:57:54 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:57:54 -0800 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <212001c70e89$a51d0780$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J Blaser Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:29 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen that I'm trying to identify and locate documentation for. Poking around the web, checking bitsavers. org and Manx, and looking at the Q-bus field guide have so far turned up nothing for me. I'd like to ask all of you Q-bus experts for some input. I've cobbled together a webpage with some images here: http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards At this moment, I'm most interested in information and documentation on the Clearpoint Q-BUS 11B. I'd like to use this in a PDP-11/23+ or 11/73, hoping to get Ultrix-11 or BSD2.9 running. All comments are welcome on- or off-list. Thanks! J ----- The first board has 6 FPGA's on it, that is what those AT&T chips are... http://www.datasheets.org.uk/search.php?q=ATT3020-70M68&sType=part you can get some specs and datasheets there. My guess is that you will only really be able to figure out what that board does by disassembling the ROM... the second one is interesting, it has a 6809 processor, a 2Mhz programmable timer and 8 2Kx8 Srams the SMS card, I'm not certain about, I know that SMS made several models of hard disk controllers, the one I have had the most experience was the OMTI controller series, the ones I worked with used an external chassis and a custom board in the computer (or in the case of the later tandy computers (model 3 or 4) worked connected to the expansion bus with a ribbon cable The clearpoint Qram11b, I did a google search and found several companies selling them, you may be able to get docs on the card form one of them if no one on the list has any. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 16:58:59 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:58:59 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061122143958.0521e8c8@mail.30below.com> References: <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> <72993.62245.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061122143958.0521e8c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: > > > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > > > Amiga makes it possible" > > > advertising slogan question "because it can > > > multi-task and run a second OS" > > > > Presumably because it was the only home computer that > >made it possible (got that one right!). > > Then whomever wrote the quiz got it wrong... ;-) I got that particular question wrong, but I think it was a case of ESL ambiguation... I first read that question as saying that multitasking specifically _allowed_ one to run a second OS, rather than "the Amiga had two unique attributes... 1) multitasking, and 2) permitting one to run a second OS. The original "Bridge Card" (A2088) was, in effect, a slave DOS processor. It depended on the Amiga for the display by a somewhat-complicated scheme to emulate an ISA video card for the DOS side, but give the Amiga a block of memory to point the custom chips at so that the Amiga side could easily render whatever the DOS side was cobbling up. There's an in-depth dissection of what's under the hood in the A500/A2000 Tech Ref Manual, IIRC. Give the cost of an A2088 (and the need to still go out and buy ISA cards to get the A2088 to be able to do much of anything useful), I don't think it was any cheaper than buying a clone and setting it _next_ to your Amiga, but some people seem to want all things from one box, so it did sell. I have an A2088 that I picked up in a pile of Amiga stuff from a defunct dealer, but, honestly, except for trying it out to see it work, I never found a practical application for the way I get things done. > > I haven't used > >Amigas at all really, but I have to admit the ability > >to multitask at home must have been pretty astounding > >back in the day. > > Not to me - Tandy CoCos could do it since '81 or '82, when OS-9 from > MicroWare was released on that platform.[1] OS-9 is certainly leaps and bounds ahead of other common 1980s 8-bit OSes, in that regard. > I'd certainly concede that the Amiga was *way faster* at it, but a 68K > usually stomps a poor little <2Mhz 8-bitter... ;-) At least the 6809 is a fast little 2MHz 8-bitter. I jumped from PETs/C-64s right up to the Amiga - it took me months to adjust to the differences. > It's entirely possible that other home computer platforms I don't know > about could multitask, but I doubt there were many (if any) that could do > it before the Tandy CoCo could. Hmm... given that in 1982, the C-64 was brand-new, and the Apple II was the reigning champion at home, I can't think of any examples to dislodge the CoCo from the top-of-the-8-bit-multitasking heap. > [1] and Yes, this was true preemptive multitasking... I remember being very > disappointed with my first PC running DOS 3.3 (whaddya mean I have to exit > one program before starting another???) I had an Amiga for years before I got DOS. I just set up the XT clone next to the Amiga and multitasked by reading my mail and News on the Amiga (aquired via UUCP), then turning in my seat to do one thing at a time on the DOS box. > but with the VGA card & Game > Blaster audio card, boy howdy could that rascal play games! If you could get them to load without massive .BAT fiddling to handle DOS memory issues, sound card IRQ issues, etc. :-P -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 17:05:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:05:52 +1300 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <4564D272.6030500@rogerwilco.org> References: <200611221800.kAMI0Bw3076343@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4564D272.6030500@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, J Blaser wrote: > Ethan wrote: > > I don't have any docs on the CompuServe board, but I can give you a > > historical tidbit or two... (snip)... > > > Ah, thanks for the education. Very interesting. Are there any good > online sources of historical infomation about CompuServe and their data > center? I should google..... I wish there were better sources of historical information, but so much of that stuff was 100% proprietary and kept in-house. If you didn't work there, you never saw a whiff of it. > Hmmm...yes, too bad Jim doesn't have the picture behind the thumbnail > online anymore. Would be interesting to see up close. Indeed. > Thanks for the link. You bet. Please feel free to share any fruits of your research as well. I used to work at CompuServe, but not directly with the 36-bit world. I saw most of this stuff in passing as I went to a different part of the room. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 22 17:07:01 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:07:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Amiga Quiz Message-ID: <200611222307.kAMN6xEC080589@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chris M wrote: > > --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > That's easy. The Amiga CD32 (I own one). > > I got all the A600 related questions right, > > which is good as I own two :) > > Hmm a rather late use of the chip - 1993 (the > original Mac II had it in 1987). I think I'm > intrigued. There's a few new ones on ePay for arou nd > $100, not a colossal sum, but I just don't feel li ke > getting Shanghaied ;). > A striking resemblance to the Sega Genesis, and > according to Wiki it can use it's controllers. > I think I'll save my cash for a 1000 though when it > comes along. > It can, however the wiring needs to be swapped (didn't we talk about this a few months ago?) otherwise using the Megadrive controllers can blow a chip (CIA, IC or whatever it was). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 17:09:24 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:09:24 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com> References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: > > >In article <4564CAB2.70805 at dunnington.plus.com>, > > Pete Turnbull writes: > > > > > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > > > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > > > Amiga OS program at the same time. > > > >I thought this was only possible with the later models and the Janus > >card? > > And if this is the case, wouldn't a PC with a Trackstar board qualify as > well, as it could run MS-DOS (natively) and AppleDOS/ProDOS (whatever - I > was never that big into Apples) on the Trackstar? I think the big difference was "at the same time". The A2088 rendered to an Intuition-compatible "screen" - i.e., you could pull down the Workbench screen in front and see both the DOS processor and the Amiga processor doing things at the same time, on the same monitor. Of course, there was still only one mouse, one keyboard, and one human, so to a certain extent, there was a limit to how well one could exploit that situation. I guess one common example would be to download something from a BBS on the Amiga side while one played games on the DOS side - the computer was doing something useful that didn't require your attention while you could be doing something entirely unrelated, and at full speed. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 17:19:33 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:19:33 +1300 Subject: TC08 in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <4564C7B0.4050702@dunnington.plus.com> References: <11C6248F-6235-4523-86AF-4349B1B701B8@neurotica.com> <4564C7B0.4050702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Nov 22, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > >> A TC08 on an omnibus card would be useful too. > > > > *drooool* Oh yes. :-) > > Can I have one too, please? ;-) If what's envisioned is a way to hook up a TU56 with a better interface than the TD8E, I'm interested in one, too (I already have a TD8E/TU56... it's OK, but a bit slow). -ethan From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Nov 22 18:01:35 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:01:35 -0500 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4564E4DF.3070907@nktelco.net> J Blaser wrote: > At this moment, I'm most interested in information and documentation on the > Clearpoint Q-BUS 11B. I'd like to use this in a PDP-11/23+ or 11/73, hoping to get > Ultrix-11 or BSD2.9 running. I have a Clearpoint QRAM-44B with 1MW, but no documentation. They look very much the same. Here are the jumpers I identified by trial and error: ----- Notes on the Clearpoint Q-RAM 44B memory card Jumpers 1 0 | A ooo | | B ooo 3 | ooo 2 | ooo 1 | | C ooo b1 | ooo b0 | | D ooo 1M | ooo 512k | ooo 256k | | E ooo 21 F ooo | ooo 20 ooo | ooo 19 ooo | ooo 18 | ---| | | ---------------------- A: 18 bit Q-Bus 1 = 18bit, 0 = 22bit B: Parity Memory CSR Address base address is 17772100 + bit jumpers C: Chip size select b1: bank 1: 1 = 256k chips, 0 = 64k chips b0: bank 0: 1 = 256k chips, 0 = 64k chips D: Memory Size 1M: 1 = 2M, 0 = 1M 512k: 1 = 1M, 0 = 512k 256k: 1 = 512k, 0 = 256k E: Base address 1 = adr bit, 0 = adr bit F: ? ----- -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 18:18:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:18:06 -0800 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com>, Message-ID: <4564783E.32041.130ED95@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 12:09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > Amiga OS program at the same time. I've got a board that plugs into a 5150 (as a display adapter) and takes the MDA display and combines it with RS-232 data coming in from an external system and formats the display as split-screen on a VT220 terminal (the board also plugs into the 5150's keyboard port). There's no software that comes with the board--all of the smarts are on the board in the form of a Z80 sharing display RAM with the 5150. Were there any good reason any of the coprocessor boards for the Apple ][ couldn't have been time-sliced with the main 6502? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 18:36:16 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:36:16 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <4564783E.32041.130ED95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com> <4564783E.32041.130ED95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Nov 2006 at 12:09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > > Amiga OS program at the same time. I don't think that's my quote. > I've got a board that plugs into a 5150 (as a display adapter) and > takes the MDA display and combines it with RS-232 data coming in > from an external system and formats the display as split-screen on a > VT220 terminal (the board also plugs into the 5150's keyboard port). > There's no software that comes with the board--all of the smarts are > on the board in the form of a Z80 sharing display RAM with the 5150. I'm not sure I understand how you'd use this... > Were there any good reason any of the coprocessor boards for the > Apple ][ couldn't have been time-sliced with the main 6502? Time-sliced how? To alternate displaying the output of one processor, then the other on the primary display? I did have a Spartan Mimic that was, in effect, a bolt-on Apple II for the C-64. You could hot-key one CPU or the other to be displaying, but it was done with relays to physically switch the video out of one processor or the other to your monitor. I was able to play two Infocom games simultaneously with that rig - type one command, then switch CPUs while the first CPU ground on the disk for a few seconds. Very handy for game research (not so handy for really _playing_). -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 22 18:48:50 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:48:50 -0600 Subject: Documentation References: Message-ID: <001201c70e99$273972d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote..... > Its the same reason I don't really like the KB thing -- everything is > going through one person and no matter how devoted that one person is, > they will always end up being the bottleneck for someone else. But yet you still contribute to bitsavers even though everything is going through one person there. Awesome! I'm hoping you'll have the same participation in the KnowledgeBase ;) Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 19:00:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:00:58 -0800 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com>, <4564783E.32041.130ED95@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4564824A.2760.1582A9C@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 13:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't think that's my quote. I apologize--I lost the original post. > I'm not sure I understand how you'd use this... The idea was that instead of keeping a PC display and a VT220 on the same desktop, you could use just the 220l and stash the 5150 somewhere under your desk to access both the remote mainframe and the PC, while running Lotus on the PC, split-screened with whatever you were doing on your VAX. Sounds like no big deal, but this was 1984. > Time-sliced how? To alternate displaying the output of one processor, > then the other on the primary display? No, but the setups I recall (such as the MS Z80 card) would leave the 6502 loafing around, waiting for something to do. Why not run an Apple app while the Z80's running CP/M? For that matter, did any of Bill Godbout's multiple-CPU systems run more than one OS at the same time? How about the multi-CPU Molecular systems? Cheers, Chuck From kth at srv.net Wed Nov 22 19:04:44 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:04:44 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4564F3AC.8010806@srv.net> Richard wrote: >Well, we discussed it on the list a while back (I think I was even the >one bringing it up) and to the best of my knowledge the scans I've >been providing are up to Al's standards, since they have been >incorporated into bitsavers. > > I think that the only reason Al does as much scanning as he does, is because he is willing to take the time to do it. I'll bet that he would be thrilled to get documents in a format ready to drop on his site. >I even wrote up a web page with my advice on scanning so that others >can create scans that match the same quality of bitsavers. > > >In general, I think its a bad idea to have everything in any community >funnel through a single person. What happens if Al (knock on wood) >should get injured and can't do scans anymore? If we adopted the > > Isn't the official prediction of injury "run over by a bus"? It is from the same standard units as a "Library of Congress", a "Station Wagon full of tapes", a "metric buttload", and a "Human Hair". >"well, just let Al scan everything because he knows how to do it" and >it never gets documented on what is the best way to scan documents, >then we lose everything connected to document scanning when we lose >Al. > > >Its the same reason I don't really like the KB thing -- everything is >going through one person and no matter how devoted that one person is, >they will always end up being the bottleneck for someone else. > > From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Nov 22 19:05:55 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:05:55 -0500 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4564F3F3.3040500@nktelco.net> J Blaser wrote: > I've collected a number of Q-bus boards for PDP-11s and/or VAXen that I'm trying to > identify and locate documentation for. Poking around the web, checking bitsavers. I also have DT2769, DT3371 and DT3382 boards without documentation. I emailed Data Translation for any support information and they didn't have any "at hand", but would get me copies from their archives for a service charge of US$50 or something. Since I didn't really have any use for them, whatever they were, I passed. The DT2769 is a KWV11-C Programmable Real-Time Clock. If you look in the Micro/PDP-11 Handbook page 214, the boards are essentially identical. The analog hybrid (?) block on the DT3382 is the same as that on the ADV11. The DC006 and DC010 chips indicate that it does DMA. Never figured out the DT3371 either. It has two analog outputs though. :-) It also does DMA (DC006 and DC010 again). Didn't Data Translation always have the company presidents face in every advertisement? I can see the face, but don't remember the name... [Google for it] Fred Molinari. -chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 22 14:11:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:11:16 -0600 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7F9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <002001c70e7f$3cf43020$6700a8c0@BILLING> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F7F9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <4564AEE4.1040709@yahoo.co.uk> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Scanning the document is most of the work in wall-time clock seconds. > My scans are at 600 dpi, 8-bit grey scale, and thus the "PDF" files are > huge (actually they are TIFF with a PDF "jacket" to make them easy to read). > I transfer them to Al, and Al does post-processing, squeezing them down > to approx 30-40% of the original size. See for example the XXDP listings. > I scanned all of those. You don't want to know the original file size! The question does keep on sticking in my mind though of whether anyone's worrying about scanning rarer documents at a sufficient quality / resolution to be as close as possible to the original. For some documents there are very few surviving copies, and it would seem sensible to preserve those ones now in a form that was as close as reasonably possible to the original - colour scans where colour exists in the document (or the paper is non-white or the text non-black I suppose), greyscale for text rather than bi-level, sufficient resolution for photos and diagrams etc. > A reasonable scanner will give results that are always better for somebody > else who does not have the document. Any documentation, regardless the > quality is better than no documentation at all! Oh, absolutely. Getting the raw information saved is definitely a priority - but with storage costs getting cheaper all the time, maybe we're at a point where a coordinated effort could be made to preserve the really rare items in a form a little closer to the original? cheers Jules From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Nov 22 19:16:00 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:16:00 -0500 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <4564E4DF.3070907@nktelco.net> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> <4564E4DF.3070907@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4564F650.6010805@nktelco.net> Charles H. Dickman wrote: > [ snip out ascii art failure ] > > -chuck > ----- Notes on the Clearpoint Q-RAM 44B memory card Jumpers 1 0 | A ooo | | B ooo 3 | ooo 2 | ooo 1 | | C ooo b1 | ooo b0 | | D ooo 1M | ooo 512k | ooo 256k | | E ooo 21 F ooo | ooo 20 ooo | ooo 19 ooo | ooo 18 | ---| | | ----------------------------- A: 18 bit Q-Bus 1 = 18bit, 0 = 22bit B: Parity Memory CSR Address base address is 17772100 + bit jumpers C: Chip size select b1: bank 1: 1 = 256k chips, 0 = 64k chips b0: bank 0: 1 = 256k chips, 0 = 64k chips D: Memory Size 1M: 1 = 2M, 0 = 1M 512k: 1 = 1M, 0 = 512k 256k: 1 = 512k, 0 = 256k E: Base address 1 = adr bit, 0 = adr bit F: ? From bob at jfcl.com Wed Nov 22 19:19:08 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:19:08 -0800 Subject: Ultrix Distribution tapes - what do they all mean? Message-ID: <000001c70e9d$6054e820$cb01010a@Rhyme> I was lucky enough to be able to borrow a box of random Ultrix TK50 distribution tapes. Unfortunately I have to give it back, but before I do I'd like to be able do a complete Ultrix installation on some system that I have. The printed labels on the tapes are somewhat cryptic, however - here's a sampling of what I have DECNET-ULTRIX V2.0 BIN ULTRIX-32W V1.0 BIN ULTRIX WS 1.1 UNSUPP VAX C/ULTRIX V1.0 ULTRIX-32 V2.0 SUPPORTED ULTRIX-32 V2.0 STAND ALONE / ULTRIX TK50 #1 ULTRIX WS V2.0 (RISC) FORTRAN FOR RISC V1.0 ULTRIX AND UWS (VAX) UNSUPPORTED SUBSETS ULTRIX/UWS T4.0A-1 (RISC) / SUPPORTED VOL 1 Dumb question #1 - I assume that the ones that say (VAX) are VAX, and the ones that say (RISC) are PMAX/MIPS, but are the ones that don't specify (e.g. "DECNET-ULTRIX V2.0" or "ULTRIX-32W V1.0 BIN") also assumed to be VAX? What actually constitutes a complete Ultrix base system distribution? Is it three tapes - SUPPORTED, UNSUPPORTED, and (if necessary) WORKSTATION ? Are the SUPPORTED tapes supposed to be bootable? Roughly what hardware is supported by the VAX versions? I would guess a MicroVAX/VAXstation-II/2000 should work, but what about a KA650/655 (uVAX-III/III+) ? Was there any Ultrix version that ran on a VAXstation-4000/60/90/VLC? Does the DECNET version correspond to the Ultrix version (e.g. DECNET V2.0 for Ultrix V2.0)? Probably the most important question - are there any scanned Ultrix SPDs and/or installation instructions online anywhere? This would probably answer all my other questions :-) Thanks, Bob Armstrong From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 22 14:34:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:34:34 -0600 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4564B45A.5020408@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only Amiga makes it possible" >> advertising slogan question "because it can multi-task and run a >> second OS" >> (or words to that effect) - surely plenty of systems had existed >> before the >> Amiga which could do just that. They might have been big and >> expensive, but >> I'm sure it wasn't a new concept. > > I think it's because it was the first home computer that could run two > OSs *at the same time* -- ISTR there was a way to run an MS-DOS and an > Amiga OS program at the same time. Yeah, I remember having a PC emulator for my A500. It was sloooow, but it did work. Of course I suppose there was nothing stopping someone doing a two-OS machine on a BBC micro with a suitable copro back in 1982, but I don't think anyone ever did it (all the configurations that spring to mind took control of the BBC side and used it purely as I/O)* * did the A500 have any memory management hardware worth speaking of? I don't *think* it did, but I could be wrong... I suspect that Commodore's claim came with strings attached, and that the quiz just didn't reproduce the fine print... >> I got 11 out of 30. I suck. :-) > > That's the same as I got, which I thought was not too bad considering I > have avoided Amigas of all sorts. :-) I only ever had an A500 (and gained a second one by accident a few years ago ;) and I never have been big on remembering names for things, which seemed a requirement for much of that quiz! cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 19:47:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:47:44 +1300 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <4564B45A.5020408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200611212351.kALNphck033051@keith.ezwind.net> <45644090.3060009@yahoo.co.uk> <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com> <4564B45A.5020408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yeah, I remember having a PC emulator for my A500. It was sloooow, but it did > work. There were a couple... one or two of them even support access of ISA hardware via the GG2 Bus+ board. Someone did some EPROM programming using that set up a number of years back. > * did the A500 have any memory management hardware worth speaking of? > I don't *think* it did, but I could be wrong... It did not - just a plain old 68000 which could be easily swapped for a 68010. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 19:53:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:53:04 -0700 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:55:58 -0500. <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: In article <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80 at mail.30below.com>, Roger Merchberger writes: > And if this is the case, wouldn't a PC with a Trackstar board qualify as > well, as it could run MS-DOS (natively) and AppleDOS/ProDOS (whatever - I > was never that big into Apples) on the Trackstar? This wasn't a new idea either (the Janus board) -- the Apple ][ had CP/M cards on them. I remember a scientist that had this tricked out Apple ][ with data acquisition hardware that he used to automate some of his lab work and a CP/M card he had plugged into it so he could run Wordstar to write up his research! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 20:00:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:00:09 -0700 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:57:54 -0800. <212001c70e89$a51d0780$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: In article <212001c70e89$a51d0780$0701a8c0 at liberator>, "Geoff Reed" writes: > The first board has 6 FPGA's on it, that is what those AT&T chips are... > http://www.datasheets.org.uk/search.php?q=ATT3020-70M68&sType=part > you can get some specs and datasheets there. My guess is that you will only > really be able to figure out what that board does by disassembling the > ROM... Hey, FPGA chips.... its probably a good bet that the ROM is a circuit configuration boot-up ROM that loads the FPGAs with logic on powerup. If so, you could probably dump out the ROM and reverse engineer the circuit :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 20:05:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:05:08 -0800 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45649154.19067.192E912@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2006 at 18:53, Richard wrote: > This wasn't a new idea either (the Janus board) -- the Apple ][ had > CP/M cards on them. I remember a scientist that had this tricked out > Apple ][ with data acquisition hardware that he used to automate some > of his lab work and a CP/M card he had plugged into it so he could run > Wordstar to write up his research! Could the SSM 6502 S-100 card (the earliest alternate CPU card that I can recall) co-reside with a 8080 CPU card? It seems to me that one of the early "alternate" cards would simply pull the bus "hold" line high to do this, But it's been a loooong time... Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 19:40:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:40:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC TU-80 Trouble shooting info In-Reply-To: <112220060643.27966.4563F17400074A4500006D3E21602806519B0809079D99D309@att.net> from "g-wright@att.net" at Nov 22, 6 06:43:01 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony > > Yes, there is activity in the address lines at least. > I would beleive is gets hung on something. I can see > some activity for a breif period in different parts > of the board. like it was in self test. Then it looks > like it gets hung. Not sure what type of a Processor > it uses, but watching the address lines on the roms > it starts out Ok. With all of the Error codes in the > manual and none being displayed, It would have to be > a very low level problem. It would be worth identifying the processor... My experience is that if a peocessor-based system gets really confused (as this one seems to be), then quite often the RAM or RAM control circuitry is to blame (for example if the stack can't be stored correctly in RAM, the system will go into lala land at the first RETurn instruction). ROM and processor failures, while also possible, seem to be a lot less common. > > As Dave pointed out, it's not a true DEC item. > So with out much to go off of it would be a long up > hill battle. > Do the chips have recognisable numbers, or are they house-coded? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 19:50:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:50:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FPGA's, Emulators, Simulators Vs real hardware (was Re: Somewhat In-Reply-To: <45645AC8.9080901@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Nov 22, 6 09:12:24 am Message-ID: > There are probably two schools of thought on this. The purist collector > would rather have the machine as is, even if non-functional. The > pragmatic collector would want it working. I'm leaning towards the > latter. :-) I am very much the latter. A computer is not a piece of fine art, and shouldn't necessarily come under exactly the same conservation rules. A computer is interesting to me because it computes, and because it's an interesting electronic circuit. Not because of what it looks like, or exactly when all the components wrre nade. [...] > I don't view replacing components with modern equivalents any worse than > replacing dried up capacitors. We should of course be honest and Be careful here. If I remlace a dried-up 100uF capacitor with a modern 100uF capacitor, then the electrical circuit is unchanged. The machine remains as the designer inteneded. But if I replace a lot of logic with an FPGA, or if I replace a hard drive with CF, or whatever, then the machine is no longer as the designer designed it. And I would like to avoid that if possible. That said, I certainly have no problem with reversable modifications. Unplugging the cables from a failed hard drive and plugging them into a PCB containing a CF card + logic is a very sensible thing to do if it keeps the machine running -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 19:53:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:53:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 23, 6 03:26:44 am Message-ID: > > Well, on the CompuServe board, there is a 68B09 which is (I believe) an > > 8MHz version of the 6809. > > Hmm... I would have thought that it was a 2MHz part, but some googling > does show the B variant clocked at 8MHz. If that's the case, I wonder > if it's possible to overclock Henk's "Real Console". This depends on how you measure the clock rate :-). Motorola called it a 2MHz device, because that's the frequency of the 2 main clocks -- E and Q. But the intenral clock generator takes a crystal of 4 times that frequency, so an 8MHz crystal for the maximum rated speed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 19:27:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:27:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: <947812.62344.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 21, 6 03:17:32 pm Message-ID: > > > But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in > > the PDP8/e on my desk > > with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. > > Just as I'd not want to > > put a PC motherboard running an emulator inside that > > case. > > What if the very last thingamabob thingee there went > kaput? Huh! I mean there are no more left on planet > earth. Would you then do the above there with the > whatever you got thing there?? Hmm? > I think it's _extremely_ unlikely that it will be impossible to either find an exact replacement or make sumething up that will work for any of the bits in my PDP8/e during my lifetime. And the same applies to my PDP11s, PERQs, etc. Note that 'make something up' may include the use of FPGAs, but to replace one chip, not the entire processor (or even one complete PCB). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 19:57:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: fake RL-02 (was: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits ) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 22, 6 10:40:50 am Message-ID: > A couple of us were talking off-list about ways to interface to Q-bus > and transceiver chips for that bus are certainly hard to find (at > least we don't know of any sources for the actual DEC transceiver > chips or clones). > > Is the situation different for UNIBUS? Not really, the voltage levels, etc are pretty similar. But if your bus is not heavily loaded, then you can 'get away' with using open-collector TTL gates as drivers, and even 74LS14 schmitt triggers as receivers. This does not meet the spec, but it works. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 19:31:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:31:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Somewhat OT: FPGA Develpment Kits In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 21, 6 04:35:28 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > But I would not want to replace the CPU boards in the PDP8/e on my desk > > with a board containing an FPGA + level shifters. > > Just like noone was talking about replacing this list with a wiki, > noone on this thread has talked about *replacing* CPU boards on a > vintage machine with an FPGA. Oh for %deity's sake.... No, nobody so far had suggested replacing the CPU boards with an FPGA. But surely I am allowrd to consider other aspects of using FPGAs (or anything else for that matter) in classic computing and decide, and then post, what I would, and would not, want to do. > > What *was* talked about was making an FPGA equivalent processor so > that it could be dropped into a board sans CPU to make the board > function again. And as I said last night, that seems to be a very sensible thing to do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 20:01:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 02:01:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <72993.62245.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 22, 6 11:14:27 am Message-ID: > > > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > > Amiga makes it possible" > > advertising slogan question "because it can > > multi-task and run a second OS" > > Presumably because it was the only home computer that > made it possible (got that one right!). I haven't used And just how would you describe a TRS-80 colour computer running OS-9? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 20:44:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:44:15 -0800 Subject: TX Peripherals? Message-ID: <45649A7F.3641.1B6BA63@cclist.sydex.com> I'm looking at a reference to the brand "TX Peripherals". A link to their website just brings up the Tapes4u, so I suspect they're out of business. The Wayback machine shows a few pages. It looks as if their 9-track setup used a rebadged Cipher drive, but that's about all I can tell about them. Did they use Pertec-interfaced 9 track drives? Thanks, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 22 20:45:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:45:06 -0700 Subject: FPGA's, Emulators, Simulators Vs real hardware (was Re: Somewhat In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:50:20 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > That said, I certainly have no problem with reversable modifications. > Unplugging the cables from a failed hard drive and plugging them into a > PCB containing a CF card + logic is a very sensible thing to do if it > keeps the machine running I'm more interested in keeping wear-and-tear on the drives low and providing an ICE for it. That's why I want something that fakes the drive and not the controller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 22 20:47:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:47:36 -0600 Subject: RL01 directory listings Message-ID: <017b01c70ea9$be87c820$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Since I got the 11/34 up with one rl01 and one rl02 drive, I was able to read a stack of RL01 cartridges that came with the 11/34 as well as a few others that I got from other sources. In case there is something wonderfully interesting on them that anyone has been looking for, I posted a directory listing of all the RL01 packs at the following URL: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/RL01DISKS.txt If anyone wants any of the files, just let me know off list. Once I check with the previous owners to make sure that file isn't personal, anyone is welcome to a copy. One of the cartridges has MPPascal. I am not sure if this is MicroPower? Pascal or if it's a variant of OSI Pascal-2? I do also have OSI Pascal-2 v2.1F on RX02 floppies. I also came accross an RX01 floppy that contains the source code for the RT11 driver and bootstrap for the COI Linktape II. One of my RL01 packs contains XXDP diagnostics, and it is a different version than the 2 verions I've seen available on the net. In addition, I have an RL02 pack that has diagnostics that are older than most I've seen around. I believe I listed both in the online directory listing. Another question - if under RT11 5.04, a disk pack shows "invalid directory"... doesn't that rule out RSX and RSTS packs? In other words, aren't those directories at least visible to RT11? I'm wondering what I can assume if a pack shows invalid directory under RT11 and isn't bootable with regards to the likelyhood I can consider it a scratch pack. I'd rather not init a pack that may contain something. Is there a better way to look? Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 22 21:10:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:10:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd: Fujitsu Micro16s Message-ID: <302132.31089.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> yes indeed I was referring to a desktop machine. Not sure if had optional uPs - what youre describing sounds alot like the Dimension 68000. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 22 Nov 2006 at 15:31, Jeff Walther wrote: > > > There was (and may still be) a fellow on Ebay selling a pair for $6 > > shipped. Ah, here it is > > > > Wasn't the Micro 16s a PeeCee-type machine that could use different > CPU boards? (Z80, 8088, 68K maybe?). I've got a couple of diskettes > from one in my collection, but I can't say that I've seen one up > close and in person. > > Cheers, > Chuck ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 22 21:23:46 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:23:46 -0800 Subject: RL01 directory listings Message-ID: > MPP15 .DSK 3500P 29-Jul-84 I'll see if I can dig up anything on uP Pascal in the archives. I've never actually seen a copy. > Another question - if under RT11 5.04, a disk pack shows "invalid > directory"... doesn't that rule out RSX and RSTS packs? Nope.. RT can't read either. You can normally guess the file system type by an ASCII dump of the first block or two. From safehaus at webhart.net Wed Nov 22 23:04:07 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:04:07 -0500 Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <45638801.5050203@attglobal.net> References: <429548.43164.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <45638801.5050203@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <45652BC7.5050706@webhart.net> Hi I've got Volume 10 #9, May 14, 1991, and Volume 10 #13, July 1991. (There's a small pile of PC Computing and PC World here, as well, from around that time.) GP From davebarnes at adelphia.net Thu Nov 23 00:10:50 2006 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:10:50 -0500 Subject: Radius 81/110 power supply needed In-Reply-To: References: <200611221640.kAMGeWcv075066@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <04DF80C7-ECC8-4916-9772-D73E1C40436B@adelphia.net> Hi Jeff.. thanks for the tip... >>What kind of video capture are you using in there? Is it a Video Vision Studio? Yes it is... VideoVision Telecast to be exact. >>One thing that's keeping it down on the list of things to do next is all the (old) talk about fiddling to get decent frame rates. Is it really that hard? Well yes and no... I have qty 4 Seagate Elite 9gb drives (5.25" full height) attached to the Jackhammer and its 'right on the edge'. Meaning I can get a capture with no dropped frames (or maybe just 1 when you start the capture), but then another day for no reason it might drop a couple frames.... I have been told that a Radius Studio Array is 'tuned' for this system... but never got my hands on one yet. To be honest, in the days (5 years ago) before I mastered everything on DVD I used to edit short films etc with this system and master them back out on a 3/4" deck and it looked great. I do all my work (this is a hobby really) now in a Powermac G5 with Final Cut Pro so I have not really used this anymore in about 2.5 years. Just don't have the heart to get rid of it after all the long hours I put into it getting it running right. If you want more help getting yours running we can take this offline... send me an email... I have LOTS of notes I made when I went through the setup phase... David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On Nov 22, 2006, at 4:44 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:03:45 -0500 >> From: David Barnes > >> Hello all; >> >> I have a Radius mac clone , model 81/110 which needs a new power >> supply.... it gave up the ghost this morning... anyone have one >> available? or an entire system they want to part with? >> >> Yes I need to keep this old machine alive.... nubus video capture >> cards, etc... > > It's the same as the Apple 8100 power supply. You'll have better > luck finding a power supply for the 8100. > > Here's one: PowerMac-8100- > Quadra-800-840_W0QQitemZ150062012193QQihZ005QQcategoryZ51044QQssPageNa > meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > > but that seller (KPS101) plagiarized my Item Description for Beige > G3 ROMs so I would love it if folks would refuse to buy from him/ > her/it. Actually, he continues to plagiarize it to this day when he > has them available to sell. > > Ah, here we go and cheaper too Quadra-800-840av-Power- > Supply-614-0012_W0QQitemZ280023961118QQihZ018QQcategoryZ51044QQrdZ1QQs > sPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem> > > And finally from Olde Mac Milt Quadra-800-840av-PowerMac-8100-Power- > Supply_W0QQitemZ8793267529QQihZ005QQcategoryZ4604QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD > 1VQQcmdZViewItem> This one is in the middle price-wise, but I've > dealt with Milt before and he's an upstanding guy. > > Oh, and he has a 225 watt version as well, the others are 200 > watts: Supply_W0QQitemZ8793695226QQihZ005QQcategoryZ4607QQcmdZViewItem> > > What kind of video capture are you using in there? Is it a Video > Vision Studio? I have one I haven't hooked up yet. One thing > that's keeping it down on the list of things to do next is all the > (old) talk about fiddling to get decent frame rates. Is it really > that hard? Or with a modern hard drive connected to a JackHammer, > should one be able to do just fine? Is it difficult or tricky to > record the sound along with the video and have them synchronized? > And finally, any tools to convert the MJPEG to modern video formats? > > Jeff Walther From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 23 00:35:48 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:35:48 -0600 Subject: Amiga Quiz Message-ID: <9fa69541ce8c4782b4f66ebc61fd8a5b@valleyimplants.com> Ethan wrote >In the realm of 68K >Macs, though, I'm not sure if they can or do use an MMU if present. Apart from A/UX and the other *IXes using one, System 7 and above would "kind of" use the '851 to manage a pagefile. That was all. The '020 was used in many workstations: the entire Sun-3 series excluding the 3/80, 3/380 and 3/480 (030 based), a number of Apollo stations, the IRIS 3000 and Turbo 2000 series from SGI. Might have still been used except that the 030 was a disappointment and the 040 was late. From ben_myers_spam_me_not at charter.net Mon Nov 13 10:42:04 2006 From: ben_myers_spam_me_not at charter.net (Ben Myers) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:42:04 -0500 Subject: "Thanks for the memories..." References: Message-ID: <418hl2tcqq14ovne0q31ipmk6upenbs8t6@4ax.com> With apologies to Bob Hope's estate, here is a list of the rest of the DEC memory: 24 MS16-BA 54-21245-BA 2Mx36 70ns 72-pin parity for 3000/300 22 54-21246-BA 2Mx32 60ns EDO 72-pin 8 54-19465-02 6 MS44-AA 54-19103-AA 4MB parity 13 54-21277-01 4Mx36 70ns 72-in parity 2 54-24683 EBV14 cache 2 MSP01 54-23170-EA 4Mx33 70ns 72-pin 4 MSP01-FB 54-24340-01 16MB EDO DIMM AlphaStation 500 2 54-23170-FA 2Mx33 70ns 72-pin 5 MS44L-BA 54-19145-BA VAXstation 4000/60 4 MSP01-FA 54-24329-01 8MB EDO DIMM AlphaStation 500 4 30-46506-06 texture memory DIMM for PowerStorm 2 54-23627-JA 2Mx32 60ns 30 MS40-WA 1MB SIMM 5 MS40-WB 4MB SIMM 3 20-45790-D7 64MB EDO DIMM 5 54-21250 16MB 72-pin SIMM 4 MS16-DA 54-21277 8Mx36 70ns 72-pin 17 MSP01-AC 54-23170-EA 4Mx33 70ns 72-pin 5 ME534-DE 54-21246 8MB parity 72-pin 20 MS44L-AA 54-19145-AA 4MB VS4000/60 5 54-23170-AA 4Mx36 70ns 72-pin MANY 54-21225-BA 4Mx36 70ns 72-pin MANY 54-21225-JA 1Mx32 60ns EDO 72-pin Quite a grab bag. Let me know what interests you. Thanks again... Ben Myers On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:40:30 -0500, Ben Myers wrote: >Well, Bing Crosby is a lot better than "Memories may be beautiful and then..." >by Barbra. Gets your attention, too. > >I recently acquired a carton of memory for older DEC computers. The part >numbers are below. I know this is not the usual place to sell stuff, but this >is all now pretty unusual in today's world of computers. I am not looking to >make a killing, either. > >QTY-PART#-DESCRIPTION >4 54-21215-01 MS01-CA >18 54-19813-AE MS02L-AB 8MB DECStation 5000 >~200 54-19145-01 MS44L-BC 4MB for 3100 >12 54-19103-AA MS44-AA 16MB for 3100 >24 54-21139-CP MS15-CA 4MB >39 54-21139-DP MS15-DA 8MB > >Let me know if there is any you can use and give me a fair offer, more than >scrap value which is around $5/lb. Shipping is from Harvard, MA, USA. Thanks >much... Ben > >ben_myers AT charter.net From trag at io.com Thu Nov 23 01:58:07 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:58:07 -0600 Subject: wtd: Fujitsu Micro16s In-Reply-To: <200611230743.kAN7guGq091257@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611230743.kAN7guGq091257@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:43:57 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >On 22 Nov 2006 at 15:31, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> There was (and may still be) a fellow on Ebay selling a pair for $6 >> shipped. Ah, here it is >Wasn't the Micro 16s a PeeCee-type machine that could use different >CPU boards? (Z80, 8088, 68K maybe?). I've got a couple of diskettes >from one in my collection, but I can't say that I've seen one up >close and in person. If that's the case, then *Whoops!*. Sorry. I just immediately though 16 bit microcontroller. I guess I've been reading too much of the FPGA thread. Gets me thinking on the chip level. Jeff Walther From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 23 02:20:41 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:20:41 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <200611222217.kAMMHe4H077849@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611222217.kAMMHe4H077849@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <50284.82.152.112.73.1164270041.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Wed, November 22, 2006 10:17 pm, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk said: > > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: >> What's the state of play with Amiga emulators thes > e >> days - are they any good >> (and complete)? What's archived, on-line software >> availability like? I think > > > Firstly I apologise if the next bit seems like > free advertising, but it's all relevant :) http://www.amigaforever.com/ :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Nov 23 03:05:12 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:05:12 +0000 Subject: can anyone ID this terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:10:01 MST." Message-ID: <200611230905.JAA06867@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Richard said: > > In article <200611221854.SAA03722 at citadel.metropolis.local>, > Stan Barr writes: > [Info re: AN/UGC-74] > > Stan, where did you find this info? I couldn't find anything listing > the supported baud rates on my searches. Jane's "Military Communications" 1989, an invaluable, if expensive source of brief info. (Although used-book stores are a good source of this sort of thing, That's where I got mine, and Jane's "Avionics 1987-89") It's rather a short entry, but the main points are: Roll or fanfold sprocketed paper, including multi-part. Line length programmable from 40 to 132 chars. Character set and control characters for standard MIL-STD-1280 Class 1, Type 1 keyboard. Signals can be "conditioned diphase or NRZ high and low level" ASCII 75, 150, 300, 600, 1200 and 2400 baud Baudot 45.5, 50 and 75 baud Messages can be editied and stored in memory for transmission at a later time. and that's pretty much all it says. HTH. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 23 04:13:52 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:13:52 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <4564824A.2760.1582A9C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com>, <4564783E.32041.130ED95@cclist.sydex.com>, <4564824A.2760.1582A9C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45657460.8090100@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/11/2006 01:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Nov 2006 at 13:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I don't think that's my quote. > > I apologize--I lost the original post. It was mine :-) >> Time-sliced how? To alternate displaying the output of one processor, >> then the other on the primary display? > > No, but the setups I recall (such as the MS Z80 card) would leave the > 6502 loafing around, waiting for something to do. Why not run an > Apple app while the Z80's running CP/M? Because there's no effective way to time-slice or multitask arbitrary programs. The Z80 card won't voluntarily give up control on a regular basis, and the Apple ][ doesn't support interrupts. The first Amiga(s) had no MMU, but at least did have timeslicing. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 23 05:57:43 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:57:43 -0500 Subject: Simulators/Emulators In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:53:46 GMT." <3D76FD40-1741-45F2-96BE-CA6EF1FCEFBC@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200611231157.kANBvhIT027735@mwave.heeltoe.com> Roger Holmes wrote: ... >There is another class of simulation I have been considering >lately. ... >it would be possible to write a >program which does a gate level simulation on a fast machine >like my 2GHz Mac. I'm not trying to be a pain, but I'd call that verilog (or vhdl), for which many fine compiler/interpreters exist. >You could even simulate the signals in >the machine, hook up a simulated oscilloscope and look at >the waveforms. they do that as well. overshoot/undershoot requires something like spice, however, which can be done but is more work because you need more detailed/accurate models. >Could I OCR the old line printer listings of the interconnection lists >and use them to build the simulator? yes. I did that with the CADR. I cheated a little since I was able to find the original CAD files and used those to extract a net list, but all I had was a net list. It's not hard to turn a net list into verilog which will simulate. (well, for the purposes of this discussion. there are issues. let's be kind however, and assume a synchronous design.) >Simulating the audio output (which is pulsed on most conditional >branch instructions) is another issue I am thinking about. Modern >computers can obviously make the sounds, but how do I convert >from a live stream of speaker reversals into what a modern >machine needs? as long as you don't need "real time", you can get the output into a file and play it off-line. -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 06:33:51 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:33:51 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45649154.19067.192E912@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061122174238.04f47b80@mail.30below.com> <45649154.19067.192E912@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Could the SSM 6502 S-100 card (the earliest alternate CPU card that I > can recall) co-reside with a 8080 CPU card? It seems to me that one > of the early "alternate" cards would simply pull the bus "hold" line > high to do this, But it's been a loooong time... In a related vein, the OSI Challenger III had *3* CPUs (6502 and two others... can't remember exact models right now, but at least one was either an Intel 8080 or a Zilog Z-80)... you fired up the machine with whatever its primary processor was, then selected whatever you wanted to use and the other two were dormant. Sorry I don't have more detail, but I was about 11 the last time I saw one, and many of the particulars were mysterious to me. I'd love to have a C-III, but they are unusual enough that I doubt I'd ever run across one in the wild, despite the fact that I grew up 2 hours drive from the factory. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 10:41:29 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for OLD copies of PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <45652BC7.5050706@webhart.net> Message-ID: <995979.31873.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> looking for the first 5 years. Thanks. --- Greg Purvis wrote: > Hi > > I've got Volume 10 #9, May 14, 1991, and Volume 10 > #13, July 1991. > > (There's a small pile of PC Computing and PC World > here, as well, from > around that time.) > > > GP > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 10:52:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:52:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives Message-ID: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Got this barebones 486 mobo. I'm trying to setup a 20 gig Fujitsu MPG3204AH drive. Types 1-46...then there's 47. I'm looking for the parameters as I type this. Has anyone accomplished this? What about a newer cd-rom drive? I don't have any 3.5" drives at my location, but I know that somewhere I have a Win98SE boot cd (I made it). Don't think I have any 5.25" boot floppies either. I'm a mess! Trying to get some images burned onto floppies, so I can play :). I doubt I can get this working today. I did make that hard drive bootable some time ago, but the P166MMX unit wouldn't boot from it. I don't have a clue. If anyone can call me, that would be great LOL! 8016260. I can't get my dialup stuph working, and I had to drive to a nearby hotspot w/my laptop just to do this! Man am I a mess. Can't find a 3.5 anywhere in my stash. That would make everything work. O man. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 11:01:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:01:37 -0800 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45657460.8090100@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com>, <4564824A.2760.1582A9C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45657460.8090100@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <45656371.24657.4C7A860@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 10:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Because there's no effective way to time-slice or multitask arbitrary > programs. The Z80 card won't voluntarily give up control on a regular > basis, and the Apple ][ doesn't support interrupts. Hmmm, that would put the kabosh on doing it preemptively, but one could still switch processors on entry to I/O requests, I suppose. It wasn't that the Apple didn't support interrupts--the signals were certainly present on the peripheral bus. It was that Apple didn't think too hard about making use of the facility until the ][c came out, then offered a firmware upgrade with an interrupt handler on the ][e (along with 80 column mode). Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 11:02:25 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:02:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <410978.36468.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Out of interest, why was the answer to the "Only > > > Amiga makes it possible" > > > advertising slogan question "because it can > > > multi-task and run a second OS" > > > > Presumably because it was the only home computer > that > > made it possible (got that one right!). I haven't > used > > And just how would you describe a TRS-80 colour > computer running OS-9? > > -tony I wouldn't. I had one for a bit, but never had floppy capability amongst other things. I guess that when it was in vogue, it too must have seemed groovy, but wasn't the coco limited to 64k? Apps running in such an environment would have to be pretty skimpy. I do think I'm going to look into this though. Someone had a coco that they wanted to sell me. Maybe it's still available ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 11:04:19 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:04:19 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Chris M wrote: > > Got this barebones 486 mobo. I'm trying to setup a 20 > gig Fujitsu MPG3204AH drive. Types 1-46...then there's > 47. I'm looking for the parameters as I type this. Has Old 486 can only support 540MB HD. Newer might support bigger. But surely not 20G! Find an old HD and you are OK. > anyone accomplished this? What about a newer cd-rom > drive? I don't have any 3.5" drives at my location, > but I know that somewhere I have a Win98SE boot cd (I > made it). Don't think I have any 5.25" boot floppies > either. I'm a mess! Trying to get some images burned > onto floppies, so I can play :). I doubt I can get > this working today. I did make that hard drive > bootable some time ago, but the P166MMX unit wouldn't > boot from it. I don't have a clue. > If anyone can call me, that would be great LOL! > 8016260. I can't get my dialup stuph > working, and I had to drive to a nearby hotspot w/my > laptop just to do this! Man am I a mess. > Can't find a 3.5 anywhere in my stash. That would > make everything work. O man. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 23 11:08:07 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:08:07 -0500 Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: <4564F3F3.3040500@nktelco.net> References: <1164187746.45641862b8121@www.rogerwilco.org> <4564F3F3.3040500@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <24123F1D-FB2E-4C42-A749-83968582F4EC@neurotica.com> On Nov 22, 2006, at 8:05 PM, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I also have DT2769, DT3371 and DT3382 boards without documentation. > I emailed Data Translation for any support information and they > didn't have any "at hand", but would get me copies from their > archives for a service charge of US$50 or something. Since I didn't > really have any use for them, whatever they were, I passed. > > The DT2769 is a KWV11-C Programmable Real-Time Clock. If you look > in the Micro/PDP-11 Handbook page 214, the boards are essentially > identical. > > The analog hybrid (?) block on the DT3382 is the same as that on > the ADV11. The DC006 and DC010 chips indicate that it does DMA. > > Never figured out the DT3371 either. It has two analog outputs > though. :-) It also does DMA (DC006 and DC010 again). I'd not mind getting my grubby paws on those Data Translation boards if you or J want to unload them, maybe some swappage or something. I do lots of related hacking and would likely pop for the $50 for the docs before too long so they can be used. (and get them to Al of course) > Didn't Data Translation always have the company presidents face in > every advertisement? I can see the face, but don't remember the > name... [Google for it] Fred Molinari. He was rather hilarious in many of their ads...that always gave me a laugh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 11:12:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:12:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061123171202.69110.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> when I originally setup this drive on an old pentium, which couldn't support it's capacity w/o an overlay either, it formatted it to the capacity it was able. Shouldn't dos on the 486 do the same? I'm now realizing it won't even see the partition I did create though (~8 gigs) presumably. --- 9000 VAX wrote: > On 11/23/06, Chris M wrote: > > > > Got this barebones 486 mobo. I'm trying to setup a > 20 > > gig Fujitsu MPG3204AH drive. Types 1-46...then > there's > > 47. I'm looking for the parameters as I type this. > Has > > > Old 486 can only support 540MB HD. Newer might > support bigger. But surely > not 20G! Find an old HD and you are OK. > > > anyone accomplished this? What about a newer > cd-rom > > drive? I don't have any 3.5" drives at my > location, > > but I know that somewhere I have a Win98SE boot cd > (I > > made it). Don't think I have any 5.25" boot > floppies > > either. I'm a mess! Trying to get some images > burned > > onto floppies, so I can play :). I doubt I can get > > this working today. I did make that hard drive > > bootable some time ago, but the P166MMX unit > wouldn't > > boot from it. I don't have a clue. > > If anyone can call me, that would be great LOL! > > 8016260. I can't get my dialup > stuph > > working, and I had to drive to a nearby hotspot > w/my > > laptop just to do this! Man am I a mess. > > Can't find a 3.5 anywhere in my stash. That would > > make everything work. O man. > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Want to start your own business? > > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 11:19:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:19:58 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 8:52, Chris M wrote: > Got this barebones 486 mobo. I'm trying to setup a 20 > gig Fujitsu MPG3204AH drive. Types 1-46...then there's > 47. I'm looking for the parameters as I type this. Has > anyone accomplished this? (Note that I'm talking about Windows/DOS here. Other OS-es handle hard disks differently) You're going to need DDO software installed on the drive, such as EZDrive or DiskManager installed. Your 486 BIOS can't deal with anything larger than about 8.4GB, if that. I think both WD and Maxtor still have DDO software on their installation CDs, but I'm not certain that it will work with a Fujitsu drive (they used to check the manufacturer's ID coming back from the IDENTIFY command). If you don't care about having access to the entire 20GB, then just plug some big numbers into the BIOS setup for type 47; 63 sectors/track, 16 heads and 16383 cylinders. Almost all big IDE drives understand that much. You may have to get that floppy installed, particularly if your Mobo BIOS is old enough that it doesn't understand booting from CD.. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Nov 23 11:23:22 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:23:22 -0500 Subject: RL01 directory listings In-Reply-To: <017b01c70ea9$be87c820$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <017b01c70ea9$be87c820$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061123172322.03AFCBA4201@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Another question - if under RT11 5.04, a disk pack shows "invalid > directory"... doesn't that rule out RSX and RSTS packs? In other words, > aren't those directories at least visible to RT11? DOS-11 type packs can be read by RT-11 FLX, but that won't help with RL01's/RL02's. > I'm wondering what I can > assume if a pack shows invalid directory under RT11 and isn't bootable with > regards to the likelyhood I can consider it a scratch pack. I'd rather not > init a pack that may contain something. Is there a better way to look? DUMP/TERM DL1: and DUMP/TERM/RAD50 DL1: will put the raw blocks on your screen, and with some experience you can recognize the different filesystems that way. There are DECUS tools that run under RT-11 and help you read (and sometimes write) RSX and RSTS packs. Tim. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 23 11:29:31 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:29:31 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20061123171202.69110.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061123171202.69110.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4565DA7B.6020206@msm.umr.edu> Chris M wrote: >when I originally setup this drive on an old pentium, >which couldn't support it's capacity w/o an overlay >either, it formatted it to the capacity it was able. >Shouldn't dos on the 486 do the same? > remember that pc controllers for hard drives, and later IDE drives get their capacity from what you tell them. when a 486 bios boots up, it will use the HD access definition that the bios supported. It may be compatable with the original AT only and only go to ~500mb, or may have bios that will work with the # of sectors / trk and # of cylinders maxed out and go to ~2.2gb total (some called it LBA, some bios other things). The trick is to get a boot written that will not remap the boot region when you change methods of access. you may well not have a bios with can write 63 sectors / track and init the disk to that. If so, you will need a boot that will work with the lowest common denomentator, which is to map to the 0:0.0 spot on the disk, then read a boot from the remainder of what would be the first track, then it will have to be able to remap and replace the :80 / :81 bios hard disk requests and read the disk till the OS comes up. I thought that LILO installed on the disk as the boot in early versions of linux handled this problem. It may not be possible to have more than one OS on the disk if you use Linux and LILO on a system, since you cannot mix up the OS's if they don't share the mapping of the cylinders, etc. The 8gb mapping, 32gb mapping, and huge disk mapping all use a different way of passing the disk address seek info after the disk is booted by the bios with the smaller older seek commands, but the whole mess has to be carefully managed to be sure all the mappings are able to miss each other during the boot process. Jim From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Nov 23 11:41:55 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:41:55 -0600 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4565DD63.7090207@brutman.com> The maximum allowable values for each field of type 47 will tell you how much of the 20GB drive the BIOS of the machine can support. If the number turns out to be small (like only 540MB) and you need more capacity, disable the onboard controller and get a replacement controller that has a replacement BIOS. Promise made quite a few of these, to name one manufacturer. If you can't do that, go for the drive overlay software. Your chances on booting from CD using the BIOS on a 486 are slim and none. Even SCSI cards of the era with their own BIOS don't do that. So plan on getting a 3.5" floppy for it. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 23 11:51:20 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:51:20 -0000 Subject: RL01 directory listings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01c70f27$fcf38f30$2704010a@uatempname> Al Kossow wrote: >> Another question - if under RT11 5.04, a disk pack shows "invalid >> directory"... doesn't that rule out RSX and RSTS packs? > > Nope.. RT can't read either. You can normally guess the file system > type by an ASCII dump of the first block or two. Indeed. I cannot remember the offical way of dumping raw blocks under RT11, but I managed to salvage some files in a previous life by opening the raw device with TECO and poking around. Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 11:57:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:57:22 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a mistake? I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if anyone's interested. Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 11:59:23 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:59:23 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One other trick is to hang a SCSI drive of a 1542 Adaptec or if it's got VESA or EISA one of those controllers. I've got a couple of VESA and EISA scsi's as well as a bunch of 1542's... One 1542's running in my PIII firewall running IPCop behind my cablemodem. Works forever 24x7 and you can't kill those adaptecs. Bill From pechter at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 12:00:28 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:00:28 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I've got some if anyone want's 'em. The only 1gb drives I want are SCSI for my VaxStation's boot disk. On 11/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a > mistake? I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if anyone's > interested. Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 12:10:14 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:10:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <4565DD63.7090207@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > The maximum allowable values for each field of type > 47 will tell you how > much of the 20GB drive the BIOS of the machine can > support. If the > number turns out to be small (like only 540MB) and > you need more > capacity, disable the onboard controller and get a > replacement > controller that has a replacement BIOS. Promise > made quite a few of > these, to name one manufacturer. Funny, this mobo has no onboard anything. Nada. Chips say "UMC". I have this skinny little IDE/floppy controller, with a Goldstar chip. This thing doesn't even have headers for serial or parallel ports. I have a Cyrix 486 DX2-66 and 16 megs of ram. There's an empty socket besides the uP - what in blazes is that for??? > If you can't do that, go for the drive overlay > software. The capacity isn't a problem. Like I said I have time to play today, so I wanted to at the least create floppies from images for my TIPPC. If the hard drive/boot floppies that came with my Victor 9000's (from a kind individual on this list :) work, I'm gonna have fun with it too! > Your chances on booting from CD using the BIOS on a > 486 are slim and > none. Even SCSI cards of the era with their own > BIOS don't do that. So > plan on getting a 3.5" floppy for it. Yeah forgot about that part, as Chuck also pointed out. Problem is I wanted to get this done today. There's a couple of old hulks sitting out on lawns up the road. Maybe I can scrounge some parts from them lol. I think I'll wait until it's dark though... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 12:18:00 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:18:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061123181800.19974.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Pechter wrote: > One other trick is to hang a SCSI drive of a 1542 > Adaptec or if it's got > VESA or EISA one of those controllers. I was thinking about something like that. I do have some kind of scsi controller...not sure about a compatible drive though (ain't got any sca to scsi-1? adapters). SCSI hard drives don't require a setup? > I've got a couple of VESA and EISA scsi's as well as > a bunch of 1542's... > > One 1542's running in my PIII firewall running IPCop > behind my cablemodem. > > Works forever 24x7 and you can't kill those > adaptecs. > > Bill Is there any longer any question whether SCSI is the Promised Land? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 12:25:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:25:50 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4565DD63.7090207@brutman.com>, <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4565772E.8873.514C679@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 10:10, Chris M wrote: > Funny, this mobo has no onboard anything. Nada. Chips > say "UMC". I have this skinny little IDE/floppy > controller, with a Goldstar chip. This thing doesn't > even have headers for serial or parallel ports. I have > a Cyrix 486 DX2-66 and 16 megs of ram. There's an > empty socket besides the uP - what in blazes is that > for??? Some of these old boards were built to accommodate the Weitek 4167 NDP. I suspect that's what yours is for. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 12:38:03 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:38:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > Funny, this mobo has no onboard anything. Nada. > Chips > say "UMC". I have this skinny little IDE/floppy > controller, with a Goldstar chip. This thing doesn't > even have headers for serial or parallel ports. Yeah, most machines from that period didn't have onboard stuff, that came along later, and didn't become common until the Pentium MMX machines. But the BIOS still can directly talk to that controller, and you need to be sure that the BIOS can address enough disk to boot. Check and see if the board has a "Detect IDE Disks" option. A lot of them did, it just won't be where the values for the disks are, it'll be in another menu. > I have > a Cyrix 486 DX2-66 and 16 megs of ram. There's an > empty socket besides the uP - what in blazes is that > for??? Coprocessor. The SX CPU's didn't have a math coprocessor onboard, so that socket is meant for a 80487 math coprocessor. You don't need it, the DX has one already. > Yeah forgot about that part, as Chuck also pointed > out. Problem is I wanted to get this done today. > There's a couple of old hulks sitting out on lawns > up > the road. Maybe I can scrounge some parts from them > lol. I think I'll wait until it's dark though... Don't bother waiting, just go up there and toss them in the trunk of the car. I've picked up tons of stuff from the side of the road. Nobody cares. Any old PC should supply you with a floppy drive, and probably even an old hard drive that your machine can see directly. You _can_ use a really big disk with a 486, you just need to have an OS or other software that will see it. I have an 80 gig disk on a 16mhz 386 running Linux. :) -Ian From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 23 12:47:48 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:47:48 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> References: <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4565ECD4.4050607@msm.umr.edu> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >--- Chris M wrote: > > > If you have older 500mb to 2gb drives, another approach on your 486 or lower if you are lucky would be to install the larger drive as your D drive and install the a boot partition, or older windows on the C drive, which would be bios compatable. With windows, you need the magic cd that is shipped with wd, seagate, and maxtor, etc drives installed, and it can run off the C drive even if it is the older drive. It will then allow windows to get to the cdrive and the ddrive after you get the system up. On windows you can install to the D drive when you install, and your windows resident stuff will go on the larger drive, but you will still have the loader, etc on C. with linux, you would put /boot on the small drive, and the rest on the second drive. I believe that once linux booted it would rescramble the disk as it boots up to access the d drive properly. another way if the IDE drives interfere with each other would be to put a CD drive and the old IDE on the first IDE port, and the newer drive on the second ide port. jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 23 13:24:12 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:24:12 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004d01c70f34$f5924b70$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: Re: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a > mistake? I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if anyone's > interested. Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I find IDE from 500MB to 4GB and SCSI from 500MB to 4GB (especially with 50 pin interface) to be very useful for my old 486 systems and my multiple 68K Macs. If anybody has a small stack of drives they want gone let me know. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 23 13:28:29 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:28:29 -0500 Subject: Ultrix Distribution tapes - what do they all mean? In-Reply-To: <000001c70e9d$6054e820$cb01010a@Rhyme> References: <000001c70e9d$6054e820$cb01010a@Rhyme> Message-ID: <3B8F1488-376F-496A-A326-8483BFF7050A@neurotica.com> On Nov 22, 2006, at 8:19 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > I was lucky enough to be able to borrow a box of random Ultrix TK50 > distribution tapes. Unfortunately I have to give it back, but > before I do > I'd like to be able do a complete Ultrix installation on some > system that I > have. The printed labels on the tapes are somewhat cryptic, however - > here's a sampling of what I have > > DECNET-ULTRIX V2.0 BIN > ULTRIX-32W V1.0 BIN > ULTRIX WS 1.1 UNSUPP > VAX C/ULTRIX V1.0 > ULTRIX-32 V2.0 SUPPORTED > ULTRIX-32 V2.0 STAND ALONE / ULTRIX TK50 #1 > ULTRIX WS V2.0 (RISC) > FORTRAN FOR RISC V1.0 > ULTRIX AND UWS (VAX) UNSUPPORTED SUBSETS > ULTRIX/UWS T4.0A-1 (RISC) / SUPPORTED VOL 1 > > Dumb question #1 - I assume that the ones that say (VAX) are VAX, > and the > ones that say (RISC) are PMAX/MIPS, but are the ones that don't > specify > (e.g. "DECNET-ULTRIX V2.0" or "ULTRIX-32W V1.0 BIN") also assumed > to be VAX? > > What actually constitutes a complete Ultrix base system > distribution? Is > it three tapes - SUPPORTED, UNSUPPORTED, and (if necessary) > WORKSTATION ? > > Are the SUPPORTED tapes supposed to be bootable? Oh my, this tickled some VERY old neurons. UWS is Ultrix Workstation Software, the GUI. "RISC" in this case refers to the PMAX machines. I'm pretty sure the "supported" tape is the one to boot from to initiate an installation, but I'm not sure...it's been far too long. I recall installing Ultrix from TK50 onto my MicroVAX-II many, many times onto a pair of Fuji M2284K drives (14" SMD, ~160MB unformatted) connected to an Emulex SC-03 controller, if memory serves. I had some problems with bad cables at one point, resulting in several half-finished installations before I got things nailed down. Jeeze, this was 1988 or so. I *think* an Ultrix-32 tape not specifically labeled "RISC" can be assumed to be VAX but I'm not positive of that. Ultrix running on a MicroVAX-II with gcc-compiled X11R4 sure was a nice development and learning platform for me for a long time. I guess technically it was a VAXstation-II/GPX, as I had a four-plain VCB02 in there running greyscale into a VR260. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 13:37:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:37:44 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45658808.24744.55698F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 10:38, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Coprocessor. The SX CPU's didn't have a math > coprocessor onboard, so that socket is meant for a > 80487 math coprocessor. You don't need it, the DX has > one already. The insanity of the 486SX--basically a 486 with the FPU disabled as a marketing ploy Sold for substantially less than the 486DX, even though it cost more to make. Adding a 487SX often cost more than simply replacing the 486SX with DX--so some canny manufacturers got the SX in PQFP form (like the 386SX) and soldered the bloody thing to the mobo. But many 486 mobos could accept the Weitek 4167 alongside a DX. I have one such mobo kicking around here somewhere. Cheers, Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 23 13:42:46 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:42:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a mistake? > I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if anyone's interested. > Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. If they still work, its a waste anyway. I still use a bunch of 486 boxes here and plan to eventually replace their hard drives (300-500mb) with something a little larger. 2-4GB drives work great in my old Sun workstations... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 23 13:45:50 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:45:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > Funny, this mobo has no onboard anything. Nada. Chips say "UMC". I have > this skinny little IDE/floppy controller, with a Goldstar chip. This > thing doesn't even have headers for serial or parallel ports. I have a > Cyrix 486 DX2-66 and 16 megs of ram. There's an empty socket besides the > uP - what in blazes is that for??? UMC's ATA implementation was horrible. You'd be far better off using a separate controller (especially if you plan to run anything besides DOS). -Toth From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 23 13:45:48 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:45:48 -0000 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <45658808.24744.55698F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002401c70f37$fa6724b0$2704010a@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The insanity of the 486SX--basically a 486 with the FPU disabled as a > marketing ploy Sold for substantially less than the 486DX, even > though it cost more to make. I always assumed that the 486SX was a 486DX that failed the FPU tests but all the other bits worked. I guess there were some links blown so it could be identified as such. If that was how things were done then it would surely have helped bring costs down (by effectively upping the yield of sellable parts). Antonio From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 23 13:52:14 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:52:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <4565DD63.7090207@brutman.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <4565DD63.7090207@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > The maximum allowable values for each field of type 47 will tell you how > much of the 20GB drive the BIOS of the machine can support. If the > number turns out to be small (like only 540MB) and you need more > capacity, disable the onboard controller and get a replacement > controller that has a replacement BIOS. Promise made quite a few of > these, to name one manufacturer. > > If you can't do that, go for the drive overlay software. The other option is an overlay/feature ROM on an ISA card. There were lots of these made around that time period, but they can be hard to find now as I suspect most were tossed out. I have a few around here that I use from time to time. One even has a correction for the Y2K BIOS problems. > Your chances on booting from CD using the BIOS on a 486 are slim and > none. Even SCSI cards of the era with their own BIOS don't do that. So > plan on getting a 3.5" floppy for it. Some of the last ISA cards from Mylex could do that. Adaptec cards didn't though. Wish I'd kept the couple Mylex ISA cards I had now... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 23 13:54:25 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:54:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > On 11/23/06, Chris M wrote: > >> Got this barebones 486 mobo. I'm trying to setup a 20 gig Fujitsu >> MPG3204AH drive. Types 1-46...then there's 47. I'm looking for the >> parameters as I type this. Has > > Old 486 can only support 540MB HD. Newer might support bigger. But > surely not 20G! Find an old HD and you are OK. If memory serves, the magic numbers were actually 527MB and 8GB. A 20GB drive could still be used as an 8GB drive though. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 23 14:01:15 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:01:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <002401c70f37$fa6724b0$2704010a@uatempname> References: <002401c70f37$fa6724b0$2704010a@uatempname> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I always assumed that the 486SX was a 486DX that failed the FPU tests > but all the other bits worked. I guess there were some links blown so it > could be identified as such. If that was how things were done then it > would surely have helped bring costs down (by effectively upping the > yield of sellable parts). Actually, the early 486SX dies were fully working 486DX parts. They just had a different pinout and no bond wires were installed for the FPU. Intel did ship later 486SX chips that were made from dies with defective FPUs. -Toth From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 14:02:44 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:02:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <67517.64509.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) > 3.5" drives anymore? > > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I > have--is this a mistake? > > I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if > anyone's interested. > > Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. > > If they still work, its a waste anyway. I still use > a bunch of 486 boxes > here and plan to eventually replace their hard > drives (300-500mb) with > something a little larger. 2-4GB drives work great > in my old Sun > workstations... > > -Toth > which Sun stations? Were the Ultras the first to support IDE drives? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 14:10:20 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:10:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <802444.14528.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > > > Funny, this mobo has no onboard anything. Nada. > Chips say "UMC". I have > > this skinny little IDE/floppy controller, with a > Goldstar chip. This > > thing doesn't even have headers for serial or > parallel ports. I have a > > Cyrix 486 DX2-66 and 16 megs of ram. There's an > empty socket besides the > > uP - what in blazes is that for??? > > UMC's ATA implementation was horrible. You'd be far > better off using a > separate controller (especially if you plan to run > anything besides DOS). > > -Toth Don't have a choice. This board has nothing. And I don't intend to do anything with this board in particular after today. That P166 is in storage in PA, and that was essentially all I ever used/needed for imaging and such. Maybe I never much played with no-name stuph back in the 386-486 years, but this is horrible! Yuck And I do miss my Vectra 386 tower. Loved that poc. If anyone has any 286-386 HP Vectras, I could be interested. Just not on the west coast :( And come to think of it my old DEC pizza box 486 (to which this chip used to belong) wasn't so bad either. And you could plug right into a workstation *fixed frequency* monitor (w/the right cable of course). But only base VGA modes. And at that they had to be emulated on that weird TI graphics chipset. 34010 or something like that. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 14:17:41 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:17:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <716430.91657.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > Actually, the early 486SX dies were fully working > 486DX parts. They just > had a different pinout and no bond wires were > installed for the FPU. Intel > did ship later 486SX chips that were made from dies > with defective FPUs. > > -Toth So totally drifting off topic here, but what was this I read about some 386-? thing actually being a 486-? under the hood? I know that sounds vague, and I hope I'm not actually referring to some MOTOROLA chip line lol. Huddo Moto. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 23 14:46:46 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:46:46 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> <45658808.24744.55698F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008201c70f41$87854ee0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 2:37 PM Subject: Re: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives > > But many 486 mobos could accept the Weitek 4167 alongside a DX. I > have one such mobo kicking around here somewhere. > > Cheers, > Chuck I think my EISA 486/50 has the 4167 socket, do apps need to have specific code for those chips to be usefull or do they kick in when an FPU is needed? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 14:59:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:59:54 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <002401c70f37$fa6724b0$2704010a@uatempname>, Message-ID: <45659B4A.14972.5A1D223@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 14:01, Tothwolf wrote: > Actually, the early 486SX dies were fully working 486DX parts. They just > had a different pinout and no bond wires were installed for the FPU. Intel > did ship later 486SX chips that were made from dies with defective FPUs. As I understand it, Intel on the early -20 486s had a yield problem with the FPU circuitry. So the 486sx was born. NMI* was moved from B15 to A15 and and FERR* and IGNNE* weren't bonded out. Later 486s (the -25 and -33) had no NDP on the die. The 487 has the same pinout as the 486DX with the exception of bringing MP* out to B14 (nc on the 486SX) and FERR* out to A13. As I understand it, the 487sx was essentially a fully-functional 486DX under the clay. Cheers, Chuck From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Nov 23 15:09:45 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:09:45 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303620E@MEOW.catcorner.org> > > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a > mistake? I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if anyone's > interested. Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. > I use them in support of the old packet network here in New Jersey. If anyone is throwing away the smaller drives let me know. I'll take them for the price of shipping. I could use 5 or 6 less than 540 meg drives. A typical packet backbone node using flex net takes less than 10 meg, and runs comfortably in a 486/66 with 16 meg of RAM. Kelly From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 23 15:14:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:14:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <008201c70f41$87854ee0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> <45658808.24744.55698F4@cclist.sydex.com> <008201c70f41$87854ee0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20061123130620.G74905@shell.lmi.net> I am curious about the sources and causes of various limits that developed. 64K: 16 bit address bus 640K: 1M address bus, with 384K "reserved" 32M: use of a 16 bit int for "relative sector number" 4G: 32 bits 2G: 32 bits using a SIGNED long int (many versions of DOS will permit the existence of a NEGATIVE 2 G file or drive!) Is the "540M" actually 512 "honest" M (535870912)? Is the "2.2G" actually 2 "honest" G (2147483648)? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 15:33:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:33:13 +0000 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Tothwolf wrote: > If memory serves, the magic numbers were actually 527MB and 8GB. A 20GB > drive could still be used as an 8GB drive though. You beat me to that answer... check your drive jumper options... many (most? all?) modern large drives have a setting that limits the reported (and usable!) capacity to 8GB. Fortunately, I've never had to fiddle with that one - I've always either had a new enough motherboard to handle the drives I've thrown at it (I _do_ have a stock of smallish drives around for older machines), or I've used the Drive Overlay Manager (or equivalent) software, that adds a bit of a secondary boot/drive overlay to fiddle the numbers to keep the BIOS happy. Of course, as others have pointed out, one can get an ISA or PCI IDE interface, typically ATA100 or ATA133, that includes onboard BIOS extensions, or just a BIOS-extension-only card - just some way to trick out the BIOS and get around its limitations. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 23 15:29:19 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:29:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200611232133.QAA29614@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? I do. In rough order of usefulness: - 50-pin SCSI - Parallel IDE - 80-pin SCA SCSI - 68-pin SCSI Serial ATA is of no use whatever to me - though I doubt you'll have any SATA in that size range. But anything under about 1G is of little value even to me, and those incredibly noisy 2G Seagate Barracudas are lower on the value list than the above info otherwise implies - their whine is just too piercing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 15:40:33 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:40:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20061123130620.G74905@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <172531.93918.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > 640K: 1M address bus, with 384K "reserved" 768k on the Tandy 2000 (896k w/aftermarket mod). I think the Rainbow 100 supported up to 896k natively. Victor 9000, something suitably "large" also IIRC. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 15:43:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:43:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > Of course, as others have pointed out, one can get > an ISA or PCI IDE > interface, typically ATA100 or ATA133, that includes > onboard BIOS > extensions, or just a BIOS-extension-only card - > just some way to > trick out the BIOS and get around its limitations. > > -ethan In an ISA card? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 15:50:30 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:50:30 +0000 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Of course, as others have pointed out, one can get > > an ISA or PCI IDE interface, typically ATA100 or ATA133, that includes > > onboard BIOS extensions, or just a BIOS-extension-only card... > In an ISA card? I am reasonably certain that one can find an after-market ISA IDE interface that includes a BIOS extension... they weren't common, but they were available to those who chose to upgrade in-box as opposed to replacing their old computers when gigabyte drives hit the streets. -ethan From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 15:57:52 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:57:52 -0500 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <200611232133.QAA29614@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> <200611232133.QAA29614@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 11/23/06, der Mouse wrote: > > > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > > I do. > > In rough order of usefulness: > > - 50-pin SCSI I bought some 20x 1G 50pin SCSI disks from ebay for $17. - Parallel IDE > - 80-pin SCA SCSI > - 68-pin SCSI > > Serial ATA is of no use whatever to me - though I doubt you'll have any > SATA in that size range. > > But anything under about 1G is of little value even to me, and those > incredibly noisy 2G Seagate Barracudas are lower on the value list than > the above info otherwise implies - their whine is just too piercing. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 16:01:56 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <122123.22221.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am reasonably certain that one can find an > after-market ISA IDE > interface that includes a BIOS extension... they > weren't common, but > they were available to those who chose to upgrade > in-box as opposed to > replacing their old computers when gigabyte drives > hit the streets. > > -ethan I was mainly wondering if an ISA card exists that has a ATA100 or 133 interface. Not that it matters that much, any drive of that type is going to be at least 40 gigs I would imagine. I just can't erase some of these drives I have laying aroung (probably approaching 1 terabyte worth), but I'm truly wondering whether the Western Digital overlay software would work on a 486 (386? 286?). Ah well. Maybe I'll have the time to explore it next Thanksgiving! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 16:05:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:05:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI stuph was Re: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061123220547.72069.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- 9000 VAX wrote: > I bought some 20x 1G 50pin SCSI disks from ebay for > $17. I bought 3 20 gig SCA SCSI drives...brand new wrapped in some goofy Unisys caddy for $10 each. I've been dying to plug them in to an Indy or Indigo 2, but lacking the adapter (SCA -> 50 pin?) and the time... Curious if they'd work in a Mac SE, or even one of the Mac II's... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From bob at jfcl.com Thu Nov 23 16:35:59 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:35:59 -0800 Subject: Free H9642 rack in Milpitas CA Message-ID: <000001c70f4f$c00255c0$cb01010a@Rhyme> I have more racks than I can use (or store), so I have one, maybe two, to give away. It's just the bare rack - no sides, door or top, but it does have casters and it's free :-) Pickup only in Milpitas CA. Bob Armstrong From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 23 16:42:29 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 22:42:29 -0000 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c70f50$a989d010$2704010a@uatempname> There are plenty of projects on the net which add IDE drives to various on-topic machines. Often these projects will not work with drives bigger that ~500MB (or sometimes ~2GB). So small drives can be useful sometimes. Various on-topic machines have limits on the size of drive with which they will work. For example, the VAXstation 3100s are (usually) limited to 1.073GB system drives (at least for OpenVMS). Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 16:48:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:48:45 -0800 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <122123.22221.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <122123.22221.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4565B4CD.1562.605796E@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 14:01, Chris M wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was mainly wondering if an ISA card exists that has > a ATA100 or 133 interface. Not that it matters that > much, any drive of that type is going to be at least > 40 gigs I would imagine. I just can't erase some of > these drives I have laying aroung (probably > approaching 1 terabyte worth), but I'm truly wondering > whether the Western Digital overlay software would > work on a 486 (386? 286?). Ah well. Maybe I'll have > the time to explore it next Thanksgiving! I rather doubt that they exist. Pwrt of the ATA 100/133 spec is fast DMA mode transfers over the PCI bus. I don't think the ISA bus has the bandwidth for it. But accomodating large drives (even ATA-6 drives) is mostly a matter of software. What hasn't changed much at all is the electrical aspect of the parallel ATA hookup. Even the UDAM4 cable (presence or absence) is mostly invisible to the host. And every ATA drive ever made will perform mode 0 PIO transfers. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 16:44:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 22:44:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <410978.36468.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 23, 6 09:02:25 am Message-ID: > I wouldn't. I had one for a bit, but never had floppy > capability amongst other things. I guess that when it > was in vogue, it too must have seemed groovy, but > wasn't the coco limited to 64k? Apps running in such Officially, the COCO 1 and 2 were limitied to 64K, the CoCo 3 to 512K. I believe there were various unofficial hacks to extend that limit. > an environment would have to be pretty skimpy. I do I think all programs were reentrant. So if 2 users wanted to use BASIC-09, only one copy was loaded (IIRC, that was 22K long). And yes, programs tended to be quite small. The line editor was something like 5K (but did quite a bit, with macros, multiple buffers, etc). You're not going to support a dozen users on a CoCo, but it was certainly possible to have 2. Or 1 user running one large-ish program (like BASIC-09) and the odd smaller one (like the editor). -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 23 17:21:51 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:21:51 -0800 Subject: MicroPower/Pascal Message-ID: I put an introductory manual up under pdp11/rt11/micropowerPascal on bitsavers. There is a five volume manual set for the product, which doesn't appear to be in the CHM archives. Looks like that would be a good thing to be on the lookout for. From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 17:47:17 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:47:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... Message-ID: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Can we please depricate use of the non-word "stuph"? Unless of course we have 'l33t d00dz" on this list that can't help but make up annoying spellings of words. I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" on this list. Thanks! Al Phila, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 23 17:59:35 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:59:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> from Al Hartman at "Nov 23, 6 03:47:17 pm" Message-ID: <200611232359.kANNxZ6K015260@floodgap.com> > Can we please depricate use of the non-word "stuph"? > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" on this list. u got it k It's spelled deprecate, btw. ;) I think I had too much turkey today ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to miss my ex-girlfriend, but then my aim improved. ----------------- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 18:05:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:05:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <200611232359.kANNxZ6K015260@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20061124000517.96818.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Can we please depricate use of the non-word > "stuph"? > > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to > "coolness" on this list. > > u got it k > > It's spelled deprecate, btw. ;) > > I think I had too much turkey today ... Yeah, how come you get to spell some of your stuph wrong Al, but I can't? Huh? Nah, gorged on pizza myself. Though an animal lover, I didn't plan on refraining from the bird. Just didn't feel like spending the holiday with the relatives (one of them called the cops on me recently LOL LOL LOL). So I bought 2 really big pies yesterday. Uy. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 23 18:15:26 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:15:26 +0000 Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: <45656371.24657.4C7A860@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4564CAB2.70805@dunnington.plus.com>, <4564824A.2760.1582A9C@cclist.sydex.com>, <45657460.8090100@dunnington.plus.com> <45656371.24657.4C7A860@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4566399E.9060502@dunnington.plus.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Nov 2006 at 10:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> Because there's no effective way to time-slice or multitask arbitrary >> programs. The Z80 card won't voluntarily give up control on a regular >> basis, and the Apple ][ doesn't support interrupts. > > Hmmm, that would put the kabosh on doing it preemptively, but one > could still switch processors on entry to I/O requests, I suppose. Yes, but you'd have to modify CP/M and the Apple's firmware to do it. AFAIK, no-one ever did. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 23 18:45:13 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:45:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Of course, as others have pointed out, one can get an ISA or PCI IDE >> interface, typically ATA100 or ATA133, that includes onboard BIOS >> extensions, or just a BIOS-extension-only card - just some way to trick >> out the BIOS and get around its limitations. > > In an ISA card? Promise made several models, as did Mylex (formerly BusLogic/BusTek). If your motherboard has VLB slots, VLB controllers with address translation for larger drives were fairly common. I've not personally seen a ATA133 card, but I know 100s were available. -Toth From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 18:51:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:51:59 -0500 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! Message-ID: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> To all of those in the US, happy Thanksgiving. To all of those not in the US, please forgive the waste of bandwidth. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 18:52:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:52:59 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4566426B.2000301@gmail.com> Al Hartman wrote: > Can we please depricate use of the non-word "stuph"? And "puter". *barf* Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 19:07:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:07:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <4566426B.2000301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <621245.27736.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Al Hartman wrote: > > Can we please depricate use of the non-word > "stuph"? > > And "puter". > *barf* You stand to offend alot of Aussies with that comment Sridhar (from whom I learned it). If you've never noticed, they abbreviate most everything. Like: rego - registration choc chip - chocolate chip chocky milk - chocolate milk prolly - probably to name a few :) Perhaps eat out next year Sridhar if the home cooking is that lousy LOL LOL. There is a certain gnack to cooking a turkey though, this I must admit... > Peace... Sridhar Yeah, and happy Thanksgiving to you too you royal PIMA. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 19:22:16 2006 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:22:16 +0100 Subject: FA : ED-Lab 980 Microcomputer Lab Message-ID: Hi, Seems 2 units are for auction. What it is I don't know, but it look like an old Moog ;-) http://dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=tbd295149 -- Stephane Paris, France. From cheri-post at web.de Thu Nov 23 19:24:14 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:24:14 +0100 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! Message-ID: <1630919075@web.de> Well, what about the Americans who live outside the US ? ;-) Pierre > > To all of those in the US, happy Thanksgiving. > > To all of those not in the US, please forgive the waste of bandwidth. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar _______________________________________________________________________ Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 19:50:21 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:50:21 -0500 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <1630919075@web.de> References: <1630919075@web.de> Message-ID: <45664FDD.4090004@gmail.com> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Well, what about the Americans who live outside the US ? ;-) Well, happy Thanksgiving to y'all too! Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 23 19:50:39 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:50:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061123174410.R82259@shell.lmi.net> > wasn't the coco limited to 64k? Apps running in such > an environment would have to be pretty skimpy. The Coco could be expanded to 128K, and maybe higher, although it WAS intrinsically a 64K machine. Yes, I KNOW that there are exceptions, such as graphics, but 64K is plenty for most PROPERLY WRITTEN programs. Supercalc Wordstar, not MICROS~1 WEIRD "dBase II v the bilge pump" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 20:04:40 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:04:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: OFFLIST - Re: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <45664FDD.4090004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <351798.41921.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> truly Sridhar...Happy Thansgiving. umm isn't this a good time to bury the hatchet and start being nice to one another? I apologize for the stupid reply lol. And I seem to recall a familial situation you're having, so I doubly apologize. Later. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 20:58:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:58:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries Message-ID: <618648.27003.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Referring to people's "collections" or whatever they may be of course. In particular I'd like to see Tony Duell's list of, what was it, 170+ machines?? This isn't the sort of site where a database can be stored unfortunately. I hope I'm not being too bold... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 21:28:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:28:59 -0800 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> References: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4565F67B.5372.7060559@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 19:51, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > To all of those in the US, happy Thanksgiving. > > To all of those not in the US, please forgive the waste of bandwidth. 8-) Based on this year's resounding success with the big bird, I can definitely recommend brining turkey. Back to my guests with coffee and pumpking pie... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 21:30:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:30:24 -0800 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <4566426B.2000301@gmail.com> References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <4566426B.2000301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4565F6D0.13675.70754A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2006 at 19:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Al Hartman wrote: > > Can we please depricate use of the non-word "stuph"? > > And "puter". Speaking only for myself, I'm happy that "crufty" isn't overused on this list... Sounds to me like a type of fast food: "Cruftyburgers". Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 21:55:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:55:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amstrad's PCs Message-ID: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> not the one with the "pop-up" lcd, but didn't Amstrad make a Atari ST-looking model (essentially a whole computer in the keyboard) with presumably an 8088? Can't find it on old-computers.com. Not much but the above mentioned PPC-640 shows up in an casual google search. Actually maybe it had an 8086. Actually maybe the thing I forgot to bid on (a long time ago) didn't have an Intel proc at all, and the auction lied or was misinformed. Though off the subject, I'm desirous of obtaining the Franklin PC 5000, 6000, 8000, you know that tawdry looking brown peecee thing. Offlist please. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 22:12:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:12:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy GT2000 Digitizer Tablet Message-ID: <685378.29787.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Got one, but no stylus, cable or docs/drivers. Any help would be appreciated. I'd like to use it with a model 2000 of course. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 22:39:41 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 04:39:41 +0000 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/24/06, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: > > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >> Of course, as others have pointed out, one can get an ISA or PCI IDE > >> interface... that includes onboard BIOS > > > > In an ISA card? > > Promise made several models, as did Mylex (formerly BusLogic/BusTek). If > your motherboard has VLB slots, VLB controllers with address translation > for larger drives were fairly common. I've not personally seen a ATA133 > card, but I know 100s were available. Perhaps that's what I'm remembering - VLB... I was reasonably certain that there was an option for folks besides PCI. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 22:43:24 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 04:43:24 +0000 Subject: Classiccmp in NZ (was Re: Happy Thanksgiving!) Message-ID: On 11/24/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > > Well, what about the Americans who live outside the US ? ;-) > > Well, happy Thanksgiving to y'all too! > > Peace... Sridhar Strangely enough, I find myself in that category... After 13+ months, I'm back off the Ice and thawing out in NZ for a number of weeks. While there's a small chance I'll make it up to Hamilton before New Years, I think this trip, I'll mostly be on the South Island. If there are any Classiccmpers in Christchurch or Dunedin who wouldn't mind a visit, drop me a line, off-list, and we can go for a beer or equivalent. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 23:16:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:16:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classiccmp in NZ (was Re: Happy Thanksgiving!) Message-ID: <693995.78101.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> off the ice as in S.Pole? Crikeys mate you must be having the time! Smack a penguin for me, ay? ;) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 11/24/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > > > Well, what about the Americans who live outside the US ? ;-) > > > > Well, happy Thanksgiving to y'all too! > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Strangely enough, I find myself in that category... > > After 13+ months, I'm back off the Ice and thawing out in NZ for a > number of weeks. While there's a small chance I'll make it up to > Hamilton before New Years, I think this trip, I'll mostly be on the > South Island. If there are any Classiccmpers in Christchurch or > Dunedin who wouldn't mind a visit, drop me a line, off-list, and we > can go for a beer or equivalent. > > -ethan ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 23:20:59 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 05:20:59 +0000 Subject: Classiccmp in NZ (was Re: Happy Thanksgiving!) In-Reply-To: <693995.78101.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <693995.78101.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/24/06, Chris M wrote: > off the ice as in S.Pole? Crikeys mate you must be > having the time! Smack a penguin for me, ay? ;) Yes... off the Ice as in South Pole. No penguins there... nothing to eat at the Pole (nearest water is hundreds of miles away). They are too smart to go there; humans aren't. ;-) -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 23:27:14 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:27:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classiccmp in NZ (was Re: Happy Thanksgiving!) Message-ID: <20061124052714.18489.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> o thats right pengies live in the n.hemisphere. But with all this talk of global warming, perhaps a few will move in before long... --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 11/24/06, Chris M wrote: > > off the ice as in S.Pole? Crikeys mate you must be > > having the time! Smack a penguin for me, ay? ;) > > Yes... off the Ice as in South Pole. > > No penguins there... nothing to eat at the Pole (nearest water is > hundreds of miles away). They are too smart to go there; humans > aren't. ;-) > > -ethan ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 23:31:32 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:31:32 +1100 Subject: Amstrad's PCs References: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c301c70f89$cf6c83c0$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:55 PM Subject: Amstrad's PCs > not the one with the "pop-up" lcd, but didn't Amstrad > make a Atari ST-looking model (essentially a whole > computer in the keyboard) with presumably an 8088? > Can't find it on old-computers.com. Not much but the > above mentioned PPC-640 shows up in an casual google > search. > Actually maybe it had an 8086. > Actually maybe the thing I forgot to bid on (a long > time ago) didn't have an Intel proc at all, and the > auction lied or was misinformed. Yep - you're correct - was an 8086 with 512kb of RAM - looked a little like the Amiga 500. cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From technobug at comcast.net Fri Nov 24 00:50:13 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:50:13 -0700 Subject: Copyright Exemptions for In-Reply-To: <200611232238.kANMbvlP003330@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611232238.kANMbvlP003330@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: An article on Yahoo News dealing with recent copyright exemptions granted by the US Library of Congress had an item of interest for classiccmp listers buried down at the bottom: "He granted two exemptions dealing with computer obsolescence. For computer software and video games that require machines no longer available, copy-protection controls may be circumvented for archival purposes. Locks on computer programs also may be broken if they require dongles ? small computer attachments ? that are damaged and can't be replaced." CRC From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 02:23:25 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:23:25 +0000 Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640611240023k7ab01dd1q4d850296906d4b10@mail.gmail.com> On 24/11/06, Chris M wrote: > not the one with the "pop-up" lcd, but didn't Amstrad > make a Atari ST-looking model (essentially a whole > computer in the keyboard) with presumably an 8088? > Can't find it on old-computers.com. Not much but the > above mentioned PPC-640 shows up in an casual google > search. > Actually maybe it had an 8086. > Actually maybe the thing I forgot to bid on (a long > time ago) didn't have an Intel proc at all, and the > auction lied or was misinformed. > > Though off the subject, I'm desirous of obtaining the > Franklin PC 5000, 6000, 8000, you know that tawdry > looking brown peecee thing. Offlist please. > > > They had 2 models one was a pc20 which was grey and the pc200 Sinclair badged which was black. It was an 8086 with a healthy 512Kb ram Dan From ray at arachelian.com Fri Nov 24 06:53:02 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 07:53:02 -0500 Subject: 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20061123130620.G74905@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> <45658808.24744.55698F4@cclist.sydex.com> <008201c70f41$87854ee0$0b01a8c0@game> <20061123130620.G74905@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4566EB2E.6040704@arachelian.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > 640K: 1M address bus, with 384K "reserved" > It really was reserved. No need for quotes. At the 640K barrier lived the video memory for whatever kind of card happened to be there. At the very top of memory was the BIOS. The rest of the space was reserved for ISA cards (which weren't called that until the clones arrived). Even though the 8086/8088 had a dedicated I/O bus, you'd still need to be able to access any ROM extensions on the ISA cards and perhaps whatever shared memory there was available for DMA, etc. The I/O bus just wasn't enough because you of course couldn't execute code via the in/out opcodes and some cards required BIOS extensions to say the least. The 8086/8088's could only address 1MB of memory, so the 640K barrier was a reasonable one at the time despite the infamous "640K ought to be enough for anyone" quote attributed to Mr. Gates. Of course there was nothing to stop you from installing a RAM card in the rest of the I/O space and getting a few more KB, but a better way was to use a memory expansion card and bank switch through a 64K window to access it, which is what the LIM (Lotus, Intel, Microsoft standard was about. That is until 286's came out. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Nov 24 02:23:38 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:23:38 +0000 Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <00c301c70f89$cf6c83c0$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <00c301c70f89$cf6c83c0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <4566AC0A.5070205@gjcp.net> Lance Lyon wrote: > From: "Chris M" > To: "talk" > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:55 PM > Subject: Amstrad's PCs > > >> not the one with the "pop-up" lcd, but didn't Amstrad >> make a Atari ST-looking model (essentially a whole >> computer in the keyboard) with presumably an 8088? >> Can't find it on old-computers.com. Not much but the >> above mentioned PPC-640 shows up in an casual google >> search. >> Actually maybe it had an 8086. >> Actually maybe the thing I forgot to bid on (a long >> time ago) didn't have an Intel proc at all, and the >> auction lied or was misinformed. > > Yep - you're correct - was an 8086 with 512kb of RAM - looked a little > like the Amiga 500. > Wasn't that the Schneider EuroPC? I believe Adrian's got one of them. In fact, a quick google turns up http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Schneider/europc.php Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Nov 24 06:49:47 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:49:47 +0000 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> References: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4566EA6B.7010808@gjcp.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > To all of those in the US, happy Thanksgiving. > > To all of those not in the US, please forgive the waste of bandwidth. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar I'm not in the US, but deep-frying a turkey sounds fun, so... No, turns out that SWMBO is not so keen on the idea. Bah. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Nov 24 07:13:39 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:13:39 +0000 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s Message-ID: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, and don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem to be asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at that price?), I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in an FPGA as was discussed at length earlier in the week. Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Presumably I'd need software written to make use of the floating-point hardware anyway... Gordon. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 24 08:23:26 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:23:26 +0000 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4567005E.30703@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/11/2006 13:13, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the > floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, and > don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem to be > asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at that price?), > I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in an FPGA as was > discussed at length earlier in the week. > > Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Is your 11/73 a KDJ11-A or KDJ11-B? If the former, it may not be compatible with the floating point hardware anyway (M8192 without a YA or YC suffix). Some early 15MHz KDJ11-B boards aren't either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bqt at softjar.se Fri Nov 24 08:24:19 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:24:19 +0100 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <200611241354.kAODrSfU013206@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611241354.kAODrSfU013206@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45670093.4060208@softjar.se> Gordon JC Pearce skrev: > > The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the > floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, and > don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem to be > asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at that price?), > I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in an FPGA as was > discussed at length earlier in the week. > > Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Presumably I'd need software > written to make use of the floating-point hardware anyway... > > Gordon. Can't really answer your primary question, but to fill in some information for you, the FPA for the J11 is an *accelerator* (hence FPA, and not FPP). It will not add any instructions to the CPU. The J11 already implements all the instructions of the FP11. What the FPA do is speed them up. And software wise, there is plenty of software that uses the FP11 instructions. Mostly high level languages, though. Johnny From wizard at voyager.net Fri Nov 24 09:31:36 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:31:36 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1164382296.13701.6.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 15:47 -0800, Al Hartman wrote: > Can we please depricate use of the non-word "stuph"? > > Unless of course we have 'l33t d00dz" on this list that > can't help but make up annoying spellings of words. Ah, the sweet smell of troll bait in the morning... It smells like... bickering. > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" > on this list. Excellent. Let's talk about "depricate." Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 24 10:33:44 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:33:44 -0500 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <45670093.4060208@softjar.se> References: <200611241354.kAODrSfU013206@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45670093.4060208@softjar.se> Message-ID: <59842F3C-C131-4DAE-94C1-8E2A09F52AAD@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2006, at 9:24 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the >> floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, >> and don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers >> seem to be asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind >> at that price?), I was wondering how easy it would be to implement >> in an FPGA as was discussed at length earlier in the week. >> Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Presumably I'd need >> software written to make use of the floating-point hardware anyway... >> Gordon. > > Can't really answer your primary question, but to fill in some > information for you, the FPA for the J11 is an *accelerator* (hence > FPA, and not FPP). It will not add any instructions to the CPU. The > J11 already implements all the instructions of the FP11. What the > FPA do is speed them up. I'm pretty sure the FPJ11 is a hardware implementation of the base J11's microcoded FP instructions, is that correct? Meaning, the instruction stream can contain FP instructions which will either be executed slowly by microcode in the J11 or quickly by hardware in the FPJ11? I finally managed to get my hands on an FPJ11 a few months ago; I picked up an 11/83 board which had one installed. Unfortunately, RSTS/E complained upon boot that it was a down-rev chip and refused to use it. That kinda pissed me off. :-( As an interesting aside, I read somewhere (possibly here) that the internals of the FPJ11 were recycled to form the basis of the MicroVAX-II chipset's FPU. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From fa475919 at skynet.be Fri Nov 24 08:28:19 2006 From: fa475919 at skynet.be (Stijn Bagin) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:28:19 +0100 Subject: sanyo lat-200a Message-ID: <000501c70fd4$ca408d60$0201a8c0@digit> Well, Tony, that probably is a good question, but honestly I do not know for sure. My own guess is also that this particular card worked for the crashed harddrive only... The card consists out of 2 rather big main processors from what I can tell : - SMS OMTI 20516B (84 pins) - SMS OMTI 20513 (84 pins) And then some other smaller components from: - SMS OMTI J20527C - ZILOG Z86C9112VSC All other components are pretty much mainstream Mhz-crystals and small diodes/resistors The board is about the size of half a CD-box and has no power connection, only the 50 pins cable from the motherboard and the 26 pins cable to the harddrive... Greetz From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Nov 24 08:40:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:40:59 +0000 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4567005E.30703@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> <4567005E.30703@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4567047B.8090706@gjcp.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 24/11/2006 13:13, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the >> floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, and >> don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem to be >> asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at that >> price?), I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in an FPGA >> as was discussed at length earlier in the week. >> >> Feasible, or a complete waste of time? > > Is your 11/73 a KDJ11-A or KDJ11-B? If the former, it may not be > compatible with the floating point hardware anyway (M8192 without a YA > or YC suffix). Some early 15MHz KDJ11-B boards aren't either. > It's an M8192-YB. Not sure what that makes it. There is a 40-pin socket on the board though, that I am given to understand is for the accelerator. Gordon. From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Nov 24 10:49:08 2006 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:49:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Copyright Exemptions for In-Reply-To: from "CRC" at Nov 23, 2006 11:50:13 PM Message-ID: <200611241649.kAOGn9Lw032669@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >An article on Yahoo News ap_on_hi_te/digital_copyright> dealing with recent copyright >exemptions granted by the US Library of Congress had an item of >interest for classiccmp listers buried down at the bottom: > >"He granted two exemptions dealing with computer obsolescence. For >computer software and video games that require machines no longer >available, copy-protection controls may be circumvented for archival >purposes. Locks on computer programs also may be broken if they >require dongles ? small computer attachments ? that are damaged and >can't be replaced." > > CRC > The article is missleading. If you read the actual statement at the Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/) it clearly states that this is only for libraries and archives. So its not granting it carte blanche for every person, but it is good news for those of us who run actual museums or archives. Marty From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 24 11:13:22 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:13:22 -0500 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <828C8365-92A2-4B4C-A008-7CDECA31F15A@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2006, at 8:13 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the > floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, > and don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem > to be asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at > that price?), I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in > an FPGA as was discussed at length earlier in the week. > > Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Presumably I'd need > software written to make use of the floating-point hardware anyway... I think it would be a very interesting and highly educational project. It'd be pretty difficult, in my opinion...but if you have the time to do it, think of the cool stuff you'd learn in the process! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 24 11:43:22 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:43:22 -0600 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45672F3A.8030503@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a > mistake? I've still got a few old <1GB Conner drives if anyone's > interested. Some <4GB WD's and Quantums also. Seagate Medalists of < 2GB are of interest to owners of IBM PC/RT systems. The RT's original storage is ESDI, but a "dumb" IDE controller works perfectly with an IDE drive, IFF the drive speaks the entire IDE (not EIDE if I remember right) command set. The early Medalists are the only well-known drive that does. I forget which command the others ignore, but it's critical to operation in the RT. My RT has an install of AIX v2.2 on a 650MB Medalist, so I can vouch for this. And I'd pay shipping and "a token fee" for a couple more. Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 24 11:53:34 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:53:34 -0800 Subject: Copyright Exemptions for Message-ID: > So its not granting it carte > blanche for every person, but it is good news for those of us who run > actual museums or archives. What museum/archive are you associated with? "csd.uwm.edu" would be the Computing Services Division of the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, where I worked in the early 80's. At least back then, there was no archive associated with CSD. --al (Software Curator, Computer History Museum) From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 24 12:29:35 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:29:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <328777.26274.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/24/06, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Chris M wrote: >> > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > >> >> Of course, as others have pointed out, one can get an ISA or PCI IDE >> >> interface... that includes onboard BIOS >> > >> > In an ISA card? >> >> Promise made several models, as did Mylex (formerly BusLogic/BusTek). >> If your motherboard has VLB slots, VLB controllers with address >> translation for larger drives were fairly common. I've not personally >> seen a ATA133 card, but I know 100s were available. > > Perhaps that's what I'm remembering - VLB... I was reasonably certain > that there was an option for folks besides PCI. I have quite a few VLB ATA controllers around here still. Some of my favorite designs were from Promise, but there wasn't much in the way of software support for the onboard processor unless you only ran DOS (and win 3.1). You were pretty much out of luck with them if you ran say BSD or Minix. These predated modern hard drives with read-ahead, fast seek times, and on-board cache memory, so they made a huge difference for the high end workstation type PC compatible computers of that era. There were EISA boards too, but they weren't very common because they were much more expensive. VLB boards tended to be faster anyway, a EISA was still limited to the same clock rate as ISA cards. -Toth From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 24 12:35:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: "Teletype magnetic tape unit"? Message-ID: What the heck is this thing, anyone know? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 24 12:45:00 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:45:00 -0700 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <4566EA6B.7010808@gjcp.net> References: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> <4566EA6B.7010808@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45673DAC.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I'm not in the US, but deep-frying a turkey sounds fun, so... But not frozen ... That I heard *KILLS*. > No, turns out that SWMBO is not so keen on the idea. Bah. BTW ... All this turkey talk wants me to bring out the TAR and FEATHERS. > Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 24 12:49:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:49:57 -0700 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:13:22 -0500. <828C8365-92A2-4B4C-A008-7CDECA31F15A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Would it be possible to do the same sort of trick with the LSI-11? I've got an 11/03 and it would be nice to have floating-point :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 24 08:02:31 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:02:31 -0600 Subject: OT - 486 w/newer IDE drives In-Reply-To: <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <423358.79572.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <456567BE.14888.4D875DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45657082.20738.4FAB52B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4566FB77.6040006@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone really care about the smaller (<2GB) 3.5" drives anymore? > I've been wiping and recycling the ones that I have--is this a > mistake? They're very useful (IDE or SCSI) on old machines for which there's no way of easily backing up / restoring / rebuilding at the OS level - it's a lot easier to do a raw backup of a <2GB drive and store it somewhere than it is if you go dropping a massive disk in that vintage machine :-) cheers Jules -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From spc at conman.org Fri Nov 24 13:07:59 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:07:59 -0500 Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: <4566EB2E.6040704@arachelian.com> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <307725.18265.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> <45658808.24744.55698F4@cclist.sydex.com> <008201c70f41$87854ee0$0b01a8c0@game> <20061123130620.G74905@shell.lmi.net> <4566EB2E.6040704@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20061124190759.GA20454@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Ray Arachelian once stated: > > The 8086/8088's could only address 1MB of memory, so the 640K barrier > was a reasonable one at the time despite the infamous "640K ought to be > enough for anyone" quote attributed to Mr. Gates. > > Of course there was nothing to stop you from installing a RAM card in > the rest of the I/O space and getting a few more KB, but a better way > was to use a memory expansion card and bank switch through a 64K window > to access it, which is what the LIM (Lotus, Intel, Microsoft standard > was about. The major problem with that is MS-DOS---it can't handle non-contiguous RAM and therefore there is no standard way to reserve or use memory in the upper 384K of the address space (well, for those PClones that followed the IBM spec). -spc (Fortunately for me, by the time the 640K barrier would have become a problem for me, I was using Amigas and Unix work stations ... ) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 24 08:10:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:10:27 -0600 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> References: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4566FD53.2070201@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > To all of those in the US, happy Thanksgiving. Thanks - I just did my first Thanksgiving; we had a great time (but it does feel to me a bit like having Christmas a month early :-) I think I'm still digesting a day later, and there's going to be a supply of turkey leftovers for the forseeable future ;) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 24 08:11:33 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:11:33 -0600 Subject: Classiccmp in NZ (was Re: Happy Thanksgiving!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4566FD95.4010501@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > After 13+ months, I'm back off the Ice and thawing out in NZ for a > number of weeks. While there's a small chance I'll make it up to > Hamilton before New Years, I think this trip, I'll mostly be on the > South Island. Hmm, I spent some time in Hamilton - I really liked the place, although I gather that a lot of the residents can't stand it :-) cheers Jules -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 24 13:18:46 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:18:46 -0500 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4567047B.8090706@gjcp.net> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> <4567005E.30703@dunnington.plus.com> <4567047B.8090706@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <9B544133-C0B0-418C-A808-5BF6A9B6038B@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the >>> floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, >>> and don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers >>> seem to be asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never >>> mind at that price?), I was wondering how easy it would be to >>> implement in an FPGA as was discussed at length earlier in the week. >>> >>> Feasible, or a complete waste of time? >> Is your 11/73 a KDJ11-A or KDJ11-B? If the former, it may not be >> compatible with the floating point hardware anyway (M8192 without >> a YA or YC suffix). Some early 15MHz KDJ11-B boards aren't either. > > It's an M8192-YB. Not sure what that makes it. There is a 40-pin > socket on the board though, that I am given to understand is for > the accelerator. All KDJ11 boards (as far as I've seen) have a socket for an FPJ11, but bugs in the design prevented many of them from actually working correctly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 24 13:30:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:30:11 -0800 Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: <20061124190759.GA20454@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <4566EB2E.6040704@arachelian.com>, <20061124190759.GA20454@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <4566D7C3.30856.A7602C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2006 at 14:07, Sean Conner wrote: > The major problem with that is MS-DOS---it can't handle non-contiguous RAM > and therefore there is no standard way to reserve or use memory in the upper > 384K of the address space (well, for those PClones that followed the IBM > spec). I seem to recall a few PCs with built-in CGA display adapters gave one more contiguous memory than 640K by filling the space between A000 and C000 with RAM. And many "not very compatible" PCs running MS-DOS made the entire 1MB available. Anyone with an old Visual Commuter want to verify this? I think that the Commuter was one of the aforementioned. Cheers, Chuck From g-wright at att.net Fri Nov 24 13:49:22 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:49:22 +0000 Subject: Looking for AIX 4.1.5 or .6 Message-ID: <112420061949.3356.45674CC200031F3E00000D1C21603763169B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I have PowerPc ThinkPad that needs a early version of AIX 4.1.5 or .6. Anyone have a copy. The one I have has it on the drive but no Password. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 14:03:28 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:03:28 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 60 In-Reply-To: <200611241800.kAOI0Fng016215@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611241800.kAOI0Fng016215@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45675010.60607@yahoo.com> Let's not. Since it was an unintentional spelling error, as opposed to a non-word. Al cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Excellent. Let's talk about "depricate." > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 24 14:46:20 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:46:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <1164382296.13701.6.camel@linux.site> References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <1164382296.13701.6.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" > > on this list. > Excellent. Let's talk about "depricate." I see a [slight] qualitative difference between accidental/ignorant misspellinq v deliberate attempts to be "cool" by creating new words. When I went back to college as a grad student, I was worried that my bad spelling would be an embarrassment. It turned out that MOST of the people that I dealt with were substantially worse! So, now I have a license plate frame that proudly proclaims that I am a "UC Berkeley Aluminum". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 14:50:46 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:50:46 +0000 Subject: Classiccmp in NZ (was Re: Happy Thanksgiving!) In-Reply-To: <20061124052714.18489.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061124052714.18489.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/24/06, Chris M wrote: > o thats right pengies live in the n.hemisphere... No... they live in the Southern Hemisphere (as far north as the Galapagos), _but_ there are none within several hundred miles of the Pole. No ocean == no food == no wildlife. Just Ice. 2 miles thick. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 24 14:59:38 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <4566FD53.2070201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4566422F.1010008@gmail.com> <4566FD53.2070201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061124125815.F12883@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Thanks - I just did my first Thanksgiving; we had a great time (but it does > feel to me a bit like having Christmas a month early :-) There are subtle differences. Thanksgiving is a festival of gluttony, whereas Christmas is a celebration of consumerism. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 24 15:17:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: <4566D7C3.30856.A7602C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <4566EB2E.6040704@arachelian.com>, <20061124190759.GA20454@linus.groomlake.area51> <4566D7C3.30856.A7602C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061124131125.W12883@shell.lmi.net> > On 24 Nov 2006 at 14:07, Sean Conner wrote: > > The major problem with that is MS-DOS---it can't handle non-contiguous RAM > > and therefore there is no standard way to reserve or use memory in the upper > > 384K of the address space (well, for those PClones that followed the IBM > > spec). MS-DOS CAN handle non-contiguous RAM, although in general applications require contiguous chunks. It is possible to patch the memory allocation linked list to show a non-existent TSR occupying the unavailable space. Going past 640K requires some other minor patches. Alternatively, as was mentioned, isolated chunks of RAM can be used for various dedicated purposes, including "Expanded" memory, such as JRAM, or the LIM spec. On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to recall a few PCs with built-in CGA display adapters gave > one more contiguous memory than 640K by filling the space between > A000 and C000 with RAM. And many "not very compatible" PCs running > MS-DOS made the entire 1MB available. Stock CGA started at B800. With a suitably addressable RAM card, and some trivial patches, it was possible to have contiguous RAM from 0 to B800. Sorry, I can't find copies of the various patches. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 24 15:30:46 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:30:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Teletype magnetic tape unit"? Message-ID: <200611242130.kAOLUkG4064040@keith.ezwind.net> --- Richard wrote: > What the heck is this thing, anyone know? > > > > -- I don't think anyone else has replied yet, but a quick google search for "Teletype Model 40" found this amongst others. It looks to be correct (see the last pic on the page). http://www.baudot.net/teletype/M40.htm Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 15:44:18 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:44:18 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <1164382296.13701.6.camel@linux.site> <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 11/24/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > When I went back to college as a grad student, I was worried that my bad > spelling would be an embarrassment. It turned out that MOST of the people > that I dealt with were substantially worse! So, now I have a license > plate frame that proudly proclaims that I am a "UC Berkeley Aluminum". One day I sold a 80186 CPU with a heat sync on ebay. Somebody used that earlier than me. -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 24 16:12:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:12:14 -0800 Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: <20061124131125.W12883@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061123181015.85771.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <4566D7C3.30856.A7602C2@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061124131125.W12883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4566FDBE.11747.B0A5EE1@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2006 at 13:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > Stock CGA started at B800. With a suitably addressable RAM card, and some > trivial patches, it was possible to have contiguous RAM from 0 to B800. Quite right--I was hung over from T-day when I wrote that. Chuck (still a little hungover) From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 16:50:23 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:50:23 +0000 Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <4566AC0A.5070205@gjcp.net> References: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <00c301c70f89$cf6c83c0$0100a8c0@pentium> <4566AC0A.5070205@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640611241450x1171b9afna13712af21f6b4fc@mail.gmail.com> > > Wasn't that the Schneider EuroPC? I believe Adrian's got one of them. > > In fact, a quick google turns up > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Schneider/europc.php > > Gordon. > I know Schneider made rebadged Amstrad kit for Germany (and Europe ?). This was a different machine, different processor (8088) and a different case. Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 17:05:20 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:05:20 -0500 Subject: OFFLIST - Re: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <351798.41921.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <351798.41921.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45677AB0.3060503@gmail.com> Chris M wrote: > truly Sridhar...Happy Thansgiving. Back at you. > umm isn't this a good time to bury the hatchet and > start being nice to one another? I apologize for the > stupid reply lol. And I seem to recall a familial > situation you're having, so I doubly apologize. Later. It's not so much that I'm mad at you. I didn't add you to my killfile. I added the words "stuph" and "puter". If you don't use those words in a message, it'll come through to me fine. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 17:46:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:46:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <618648.27003.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 23, 6 06:58:08 pm Message-ID: > > Referring to people's "collections" or whatever they > may be of course. In particular I'd like to see Tony > Duell's list of, what was it, 170+ machines?? This > isn't the sort of site where a database can be stored > unfortunately. I hope I'm not being too bold... OK, here is a partial list of my collection. Not updated recently, so some new acquisitions aren't there... Minicomputers ------------- DEC PDP11/05 (or is it 11/10), 8K core DEC GT40, VR17 display, lightpen (no keyboard) DEC PDP11/34's, MOS memory, programmers panel (3 off) DEC PDP11/44, 768K MOS memory, FPP DEC PDP11/45, 124K memory, Qbus expansion, RK05, RL01, RL02, RK07 (2 off each), RX02, RK11-C, Solartron tape reader, EMI7000 magtape, etc DEC PDP11/03, expansion box, RKV11-D DEC PDP11/03, Lab I/O, etc DEC MINC-03 + 2 RL01 drives, KW, DI(2), DO(2), AD, AA modules DEC MINC-23 + RX02, KW (2), DI, DO, AD, AA, TP, AG modules DEC SBC21 in BA11-V box (York Box PROMs + PLA) DEC PDP8/e + TU56 + RX01 + PC04 + RK8e controller DEC PDP8/a + RL8 + RK8 controllers DEC VAX 11/730 + R80 + TS05 magtape. DEC MicroVAX IIGPX Philips P850, 2K core, Trend papertape, IEEE488 interface Philips P851, 32K MOS, double 8" floppy drive Philips P854, 64K MOS, double 8" floppy drive, hard disk interface HP 2100A CPU + papertape reader + 'RK05-like' cartridge drive Tektronix 8530 development system Tektronix 8550 development system Computer Automation Naked Mini (missing PSU) Data General Nova 1210 (missing frontpanel) Parallel Computers ------------------ AMT DAP 500 (1024 processors), PSU fault Assorted INMOS TRAMs (Computer, SCSI, GPIB, Ethernet, etc). B004, B008, B020 INMOS ITEM (5 off B001 cards) + spares Workstations ------------ PERQ 1, 4K CPU, 1M RAM, 24Mbyte hard disk PERQ 2T1, 16K CPU, 2M RAM, OIO-2, Canon CX printer, V80 printer, Dylon Magtape, Archive Sidewinder, portrait monitor PERQ 2T4, 4M RAM, landscape monitor (with EHT fault?) PERQ 3a, 2M RAM, 100Mbyte hard disk, mono display Apollo DN3500 + 20Mbyte RAM + ESDI disks + spare cards. Sun 3/260, FPA, SCSI, SMD, QIC24 tape drive (no disks) HP 9000/340, 16Mbyte RAM, 6plane framebuffer (5 off) HP/ Apollo 9000/425 + external graphics box + spare mainboards/CPUs Torch XXX (3 off), slimring, quinring, mussel (68020) board, etc WCW MG1 motherboard + Ramcards + PSU WCW MG1, ramcards, keyboard, mouse, monitor, IBM expansion backplane. WCW Hitech 10 motherboard + CPU boards + video boards + RAM WCW Hitech 20 in PC tower case Xerox Daybreak 83D + mono monitor (missing keyboard/mouse) Acorn Cambridge Workstation Micros - 12 bit or higher ------------------------- IBM PC (3 off) IBM PC/XT (2 off, 1 with expansion cabinet) IBM PC/AT (with 486 kludgeboard,etc) IBM PortablePC IBM PC/jr IBM PC/XT Model 286 AES PC/AT clone Philips/Corona Data Systems XT clone HP150-II touchscreenPC, 3 off hard disk units, 2 off tape drives HP9825 + 8" drive + IEEE cartridge + RS232 cartridge etc HP9831 HP9836, 2 drives, 1 Mbyte RAM, RS232, 2* GPIO, HPIB cards. HP9845 + mono monitor, I/O expansion chassis, I/O modules, ROMs HP110 HP Portable+ (2 off, one with video interface) Apricot PC, 960K RAM, expansion cards FTS Model 88 workstation + 2 8" floppies Zilog S8000/30 Z8000-based unix machine Atari 520 STFM, external drive CBM Amiga 600 (faulty?) Sage 2, 512K RAM, 2 drives DEC Rainbow, RAMcard, Colorcard, HDC, VR201 monitor, LK201 keyboard (2 off) DEC Pro350 (2 off), assorted cards (including ethernet and realtime I/O) DEC Pro380 DECMate II, VR201, LK201 Sinclair QL, homebrew keyboard. Sanyo MBC555, mono monitor, keyboard Apple Macintosh Plus, keyboard, no mouse (2off) Apple Macintosh LC, keyboard (no mouse or monitor) Acorn A310, Monitor Acorn A3000, mouse IBM Risc6000 Model 220 Panasonic luggable PC Sharp 8086 PC (not IBM compatable) Sirius 1 Amstrad PC2086 + PC14HRCD/O monitor Amstrad PPC640DD portable PC + TV interface Micros - 8 bit -------------- CBM PET 8032SK + 8050 drive + printers CBM 64 + 1541 drive CBM 64C CBM 128 CBM P500 + 8250LP drive TRS-80 Model 1 (level 2 16K RAM) + Expansion Interface (32K RAM) + drive TRS-80 Model 1 (Model 3 basic, 48K RAM!), keyboard unit only TRS-80 Model 3, 48K RAM, 2 drives, RS232 TRS-80 Model 4, 128K RAM, 4 internal drives, RS232 TRS-80 CoCo 2, 64K RAM (4 off) TRS-80 CoCo 3, 512K RAM, 2 drives, RS232, Sound cartridge, etc TRS-80 Model 100, 32K RAM Acorn Atom (3 off), Econet, etc Acorn System 4, 6502 CPU, 40 col VDU, 56K RAM, keyboard, 2 drives, econet Acorn System 5, 6809 CPU, 80 col VDU, 56K RAM, non-original keyboard, 2 drives Acorn BBC Micro (6 off), econet, 8271 FDC, etc Acorn BBC Micro + Torch SCSI hard disk unit Acorn BBC Micro + Aries B32 RAM board Acorn 6502 second processor Acorn Z80 second processor Acorn ARM1 Evaluation System (BBC Second Processor) Torch Graduate 8088 second processor for BBC micro Torch Z80 card for BBC micro + ROM Tatung Einstein Apple ][ europlus + 4 drives + language card + 6809 + serial card etc Apple //e HH Tiger, 64K + 8K + 96K RAM, spare keyboard PCB, CPU only Vectrex video game + homebrew cartridges + homebrew lightpen HP85 (3 off) + HPIB module + RS232 module + ROM drawer + 16K RAM drawer HP9915 HP86B(3 off) + 9121 drive (3 off) + Monitor HP87 HP87XM Oric 1 + spare keyboard PCB Oric Atmos + 2 3" drives + printer Sinclair MK14 (faulty, alas), 256 bytes RAM, homebrew I/O mods Sinclair ZX81 + 3rd party 16K RAMpack Sinclair Spectrum 48K SGS Nanocomputer, keypad + spare CPU board 'PE Microcontroller' 6800 system + keypad + display + PSU Hewart Mini-6800 + RAMcard + microprinter + PSU Diamond word processor system + 2 8" drives CCS S100 system + cards CASU Super C S100 system, 64K RAM, Persci twin drive, etc Epson QX10 + video card + monitor + keyboard + spare CPU box Epson HX20 (5 off), cassette, TF20 floppy drive. Epson PX4 + RAM cartridge Epson PX8 + PF10 3.5" drive (63X03 faulty) Atari 400 (missing keyboard),PSU Jupiter ACE, 16K Rampack, PSU Grundy Newbrain AD + PSU ICL DRS20 Intel Intellec MCS8i, paper tape interface, 1702 programmer Intel MDS800, UPP, 2 8" drives, 8080 ICE GR Futuredata Z80 development system. Exidy Sorcerer, S100 expansion rack NEC PC8001, expansion unit Olivetti M10 portable RML380Z, 2 internal drives, Hires card, RGB output, keyboard RML480Z, internal expansion card Zenith Z-90 + Z87 external drive unit (hard and soft sector controllers) Philips P5020 word processor, keyboard Gemini Galaxy 2, keyboard, monitor Graphics Systems ---------------- Ramtek Marquis 9460 (cardcage only), Unibus interface Grinnel Systems PDP11 framestore PPL Model 121 video hard disk + control PPL PDP11 framestore, Unibus Interface, trackball I2S Model 70/E image processor, 2 RAM crates, trackball, tablet I2S Model 70/F4 image processor, trackball I2S Model 75 image processor, trackball, tablet, Barco CDCT 2/51 monitor Evans and Sutherland PS/390 image display, tablet, twidlebox, keyboard, PAL encoder, 3D imager HP1350 Graphics translator (2 off), HP1311A monitor Tektronix 4006 graphics terminal Peripherals, etc ---------------- Teletype Model ASR33, large box of spares Data Dynamics Model 390 (ASR33) Creed 7E Creed 444 (missing reader drive belt), control unit. Friden Flexowriter Teleprinter Unit 4 (line termination unit) Sanders 12/7 varioprinter Sanders 700 hi-res dot matrix printer DEC LA210 printer DEC LA324 printer DEC LA100 printer (4 off) Trend HSR500P paper tape reader Trend UDR700 reader Facit 4070 paper tape punch (2 off) Cipher F880E magtape drive Facit 4028 cassette drive Teletype KSR43 (2 off) Elliot High Speed paper tape reader DRI model 30 cartridge disk (2 off) + PSU Data Dynamics 1133 paper tape punch Teletype BPRE high speed punch (2 off) DEC VT100 video terminal (3 off) DEC VT105 video terminal with graph option DEC VT55 video terminal, printer Beehive video terminal, hebrew option Volker-Craig model 414 terminal, APL option Philips videotext system, keypad Philips videotext system, QWERTY keyboard, printer (2 off) Modem 2B (2 off) Modem 1200A Modem 13A Anderson-Jacobson Acoustic coupler HP7225 plotter (2 off) HP7245 plotter/printer Toyo/Sanyo colour video printer + spares ICL Termiprinter (2 off, different versions) Torch lightpen for the BBC micro Trend 860 series portable terminal Calculators/handhelds --------------------- HP9100B (2 off), magcards HP9815 (early version CPU board, very dead :-() HP9815 (late version CPU board) HP35 HP45 HP55 HP65 HP67 (2 off), cards HP80 HP41C HP41C (with bug 1) HP41CV (a lot), card reader, wand, printer (printhead problems), IL module HP41CX (3 off) Many HP41 modules (including ZenROM, ZEEPROM), MLDL, etc HP71B (5 off), HPIL module (5 off), 32K Ram module, Forth ROM, Maths ROM, Datacoms ROM, Circuit ROM, Curve fitting ROM, finance ROM, 41 tranlastor ROM, Zenwand, card reader, IL printer, IL tape drive, IL disk drive HP75C, cards, Visicalc, I/O ROM, text formatter ROM HP28C, RS232 output interface (homebrew) HP48SX, IR interface (Homebrew), I2C interface (homebrew) HP49G HP42S HP31E HP32E HP33C HP34C HP82163 video display interface HP82164 RS232 interface HP82165 GPIO interface HP82169 HPIB interface Novus Mathematician Casio AL1000 Casio AL2000 Sharp PC1211, cassette interface, printer Sharp PC1500, plotter, RS232/centronics i/f, RS232/ADC i/f, tapes (I/O fault?) Tandy PC4, printer, cassette interfce Tandy PC6 Tandy PC7 Casio FX730 + Cassette Interface Sinclair Cambridge Universal IME Model 26 calculator HP9810 (2 off) HP9830 + HP9866 printer Microwriter MW4 Microwriter Agenda Test Equipment -------------- Tektronix 551, K and L plugins (EHT fault?) Tektronix 555, 1A1, 1S1, P, M, 1A5, etc Solartron CD1400 scope, delayed timebase Tektronix 5110 'scope (2 off), assorted plugins Tektronix 561 'scope, 3S2, 3T2 plugins (no sampling heads) Gould K100D logic analyser,homebrew pod HP LogicDart HP3421 Data Acquisition unit + HPIB interface Tektronix 835 datacoms analyser Trend 1/4 datacoms test set ATE TDMS5 Teleprinter test set 'Tester Distortion and Margin' teleprinter tester Fluke 2240 data logger, paper tape output card, hires ADC Solartron DTU, clock, controller, interface, papertape card, keypad, etc (2 0ff) Solartron LM1420.2 DVM HP5243 10MHz counter + 100MHz mixer plugin HP5245 50MHz counter + 350MHz prescaler, time interval plugin, 3Ghz mixer Blackburn Instruments DVM (entirely valved!) AVO valve characteristic meter Mk4 Mullard high-speed valve tester, cards Taylor valve tester -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 17:57:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:57:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sanyo lat-200a In-Reply-To: <000501c70fd4$ca408d60$0201a8c0@digit> from "Stijn Bagin" at Nov 24, 6 03:28:19 pm Message-ID: > > Well, Tony, that probably is a good question, but honestly I do not know = > for sure. My own guess is also that this particular card worked for = > the crashed harddrive only... > > The card consists out of 2 rather big main processors from what I can = > tell : > - SMS OMTI 20516B (84 pins) > - SMS OMTI 20513 (84 pins) IIRC, those are a buffer memory contoller, and a hard disk data interface thingy. > And then some other smaller components from: > - SMS OMTI J20527C And that's the data separator/VCO > - ZILOG Z86C9112VSC A Z8 series microcontroller. > All other components are pretty much mainstream Mhz-crystals and small = > diodes/resistors I am suprised thrre's not some SRAM (at least a 2K*8 chip for the data buffer) on that boar. Maybe on the other side? > > The board is about the size of half a CD-box and has no power = > connection, only the 50 pins cable from the motherboard and the 26 pins = Power could well be carried on some pins of that 50 pin cable. Does the hard drive have its onw power connector, or does it get power over the 26 wire cable? > cable to the harddrive... Fro mthe Omti chips you mention, I am now almost certain that's a raw itnerface, possibly similar to ST412 -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 24 19:13:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:13:25 -0800 Subject: OT a bit How little we remember In-Reply-To: References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <45672835.29089.BB03D1B@cclist.sydex.com> I finally decided to take a look at the November 16 issue of Electronic Design (sometimes it takes me several months to get around to reading Bob Pease's rants--the current one is about sand, near as I can figure). At any rate, on page 50, there's an article title "March of the Multibus MCUs". Says I to myself, "They've resurrected Intel Multibus for microcontrollers? Now THAT's interesting!" Turns out to be no such thing--"Multibus" here applies to "multiple bus" devices. Sigh, I guess I'm never going to find a use for those 86-conductor edge connectors... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 20:26:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:26:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061125022648.21007.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: ...a big snip... Ok, what do you play with most? And, dear Lord, most of this stuff has to be in storage, no? I know there's loads of castles in England, and it sure as heck would take one to house all that! There's a bloody small fortune there besides. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 20:30:07 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:30:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <26c11a640611241450x1171b9afna13712af21f6b4fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <102879.50027.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Williams wrote: > > > > Wasn't that the Schneider EuroPC? I believe > Adrian's got one of them. > > > > In fact, a quick google turns up > > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Schneider/europc.php > > > > Gordon. > > > I know Schneider made rebadged Amstrad kit for > Germany (and Europe > ?). This was a different machine, different > processor (8088) and a > different case. > > Dan No I don't think that was it. The unit I'm referring to was more plain looking. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 20:44:25 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:44:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <20061124125815.F12883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <480218.15831.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > whereas Christmas is a celebration of consumerism. Replete with pagan symbolism. LOL don't get me wrong y'all, I love Christmas just the same. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 20:50:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:50:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: <4566D7C3.30856.A7602C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <843740.15841.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to recall a few PCs with built-in CGA display > adapters gave > one more contiguous memory than 640K by filling the > space between > A000 and C000 with RAM. And many "not very > compatible" PCs running > MS-DOS made the entire 1MB available. Were these in the Tandy 1000 series? I'm curious if there were any others (I think some of the later 1K's may have done something like that). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 21:02:52 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:02:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <558923.3027.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I'll spell in any kewell manner I feel like. So if anyone has a problem with me spelling funnetically, they can just cram it! LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From whdawson at nidhog.net Fri Nov 24 21:13:54 2006 From: whdawson at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:13:54 -0500 Subject: On.T. Pionex P1-200MMX system tower , needs a new home. Actual shipping + $8.00 for effort and materials. Message-ID: Before I offer this on the local Freecycle maybe there's someone here that would want it. Solidly built and has lots of expandability, a very well laid out Wintel box. Lots of room. Currently running Windows 95 OSR2B and has passed memtest, very stable & very clean. According to the current rules this is OnT. If I offend anyone, please accept my apologies. I don't want to start a war, I only want a fellow collector to have this "classic" machine, if wanted. I just don't have any more room and can't stash it away. Those of you that have been here know what I mean. Motherboard is a BioStar MP-8500TVG with i430VX chipset (Details can be found on archive.org (wayback machine)). Can take AMI, Cyrix and Intel processors. Also will take a P1-233MMX. AMI BIOS (TVG0819 1995) 51-0819-001223-00111111-071595-82430VX-H (nice BIOS) 4 PCI slots, 4 ISA slots. 2 USB ports 2 serial, 1 parallel. 3GB hard drive, IDE (1.36 GB free) 2 empty 3-1/2 hard drive bays! 1 CDROM, unknown speed, IDE Standard 3-1/2 1.2MB floppy drive. 3 empty 5-1/4 bays! Pentium 200MMX (Socket 7) 512K L2 cache (verified with cachechk) 32MB memory (2x16 pin 72 pin). There are 2 more empty 72 pin memory sockets and 2 168 pin sockets. Mix and match is OK, I tried it and it works (with older non SPD chip 168 pin memory). Also takes EDO. S3 Virge PCI video Ensonique PCI sound 200W Bestec power supply. Various software applications of the Win95 Era and a few newer (of the Orifice 2K persuasion) others. RingCentral 4.0: Phone Answering Machine application with mailboxes and Faxing software (sorry, I'm likely keeping the installed ViVa 56LC-SM modem, but the this application should work with any voice modem if you want to use this box as an answering machine. A few cheap-bottle-of-wine $s would convince me to leave the ViVa modem in). I'm in Washington, PA, zip code 15301. Pick up to save shipping and effort costs is OK. Email me directly if interested at pionex_at_ss-50_dot_com. Regards, Bill http://www.swtpc.com -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 21:55:37 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 03:55:37 +0000 Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <102879.50027.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <26c11a640611241450x1171b9afna13712af21f6b4fc@mail.gmail.com> <102879.50027.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640611241955i7fca731dsc1cfbce45ef104a1@mail.gmail.com> > No I don't think that was it. The unit I'm referring > to was more plain looking. > > i found a picture of the pc20 http://www.1000bit.net/scheda.asp?id=163 I assume it that. When I was looking for the picture I found somewhere that said it was aimed at the ST market and was the same price. I don't know the difference between Amiga and ST prices at that time. Also the Sinclair version had TV out which was rare for PC compatibles at the time. Dan From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Nov 24 22:40:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:40:33 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <558923.3027.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <558923.3027.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200611242340.33479.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 24 November 2006 22:02, Chris M wrote: > I'll spell in any kewell manner I feel like. So if > anyone has a problem with me spelling funnetically, > they can just cram it! LOL LOL Just don't expect anyone to listen to you, or take you seriously. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 23:08:44 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:08:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd - pc tech journals Message-ID: <900393.58509.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> 86 and prior. I have some from 86-87, so trades are also of interest. And if anyone (even Pat ;) should need an issue or article, cram it! LOL LOL only kidding ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From wizard at voyager.net Sat Nov 25 00:28:26 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:28:26 -0500 Subject: "Teletype magnetic tape unit"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1164436106.13701.54.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 11:35 -0700, Richard wrote: > What the heck is this thing, anyone know? > > Yeah, it's a magnetic tape recorder for a Teletype Model 43 Glass TTY. The 43 was widescreen, at 132 characters, like green-bar paper. There was no paper punch for it, and the Model 40 served the same function electronically as a paper tape punch/reader, only faster. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Sat Nov 25 00:48:11 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:48:11 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 60 In-Reply-To: <45675010.60607@yahoo.com> References: <200611241800.kAOI0Fng016215@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45675010.60607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1164437291.13701.72.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 15:03 -0500, Al Hartman wrote: cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Excellent. Let's talk about "depricate." > > > > > Let's not. > > Since it was an unintentional spelling error, as opposed to a non-word. What a killjoy. The original was, as I recall, or, rather, clip, was: > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" > on this list. This means, to me, that unintentional spelling errors are fair game. YMMV. I normally don't comment on spelling and grammar, unless I cannot decipher what is intended to be communicated. But, any post in which the author gripes about the spelling of another is fair game. And, the perversity of the universe being what it is, most posts griping about spelling or grammar contain errors of spelling or grammar. Um, I would note that you split a single sentence most brutally, and made two sentence fragments from the corpse. Instead of ending after "Let's not," you should have placed a comma, and continued. (No, don't thank me... precision is its own reward.) I further note that my comment was "Let's talk about 'depricate'," which is a parody of a pedantic metaphor. I can see where that might have gotten by you. Perhaps an additional clue was necessary. I apologize for not making it clear enough. Please allow me to re-state my comment to remove the ambiguity: Let's talk about "depricate." Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Sat Nov 25 00:57:58 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:57:58 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061123234717.43198.qmail@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <1164382296.13701.6.camel@linux.site> <20061124124021.N12883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1164437878.13701.81.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 12:46 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" > > > on this list. > > Excellent. Let's talk about "depricate." > > I see a [slight] qualitative difference between accidental/ignorant > misspellinq v deliberate attempts to be "cool" by creating new words. As do I. An accidental/ignorant mis-spelling in a post deserves a gentle correction, with the goal of improving world communications. The "to be cool" variety deserves no more than a simple pistol-whipping; the perpetrator is obviously not ready for refined instruction. > When I went back to college as a grad student, I was worried that my bad > spelling would be an embarrassment. It turned out that MOST of the people > that I dealt with were substantially worse! So, now I have a license > plate frame that proudly proclaims that I am a "UC Berkeley Aluminum". Were it Oxford, rather than U.C.B., it might well read "Aluminium." I saw a young man with a shirt which read "Your retarded." I had already opened my mouth to correct the grammar, when it hit me that the point of the shirt was to garner just that response, so the wearer could say something to the effect of "Well, at least I'm not arguing about grammar on a t-shirt." Since my mouth was already open, and not wishing to appear to be either retarded, or attempting to catch flies, I said "You almost caught me with that shirt." The wearer was impressed. Slacker. Grumpy old Fred, indeed. Keep off my lawn. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Sat Nov 25 01:02:45 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:02:45 -0500 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1164438166.13701.84.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:46 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, here is a partial list of my collection. Not updated recently, so > some new acquisitions aren't there... [ List of equipment to put "The Twelve Days of Christmas" to shame clipped. ] Ack. I thought I was a packrat. It turns out I'm a piker. *SIGH* Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rivie at ridgenet.net Sat Nov 25 01:02:34 2006 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:02:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > > Would it be possible to do the same sort of trick with the LSI-11? > I've got an 11/03 and it would be nice to have floating-point :-). There were a couple of floating point options for 11/03. I haven't actually seen either. The first, FIS-11, was a ROM that goes into the empty socket. The second, FPP-11, was an add-on board that connected to the 11/03 via the empty socket. As I understand it, the empty socket could be used for either floating point or the commercial instruction set. Since there's only one empty socket, you can't have both floating point and the CIS. There's also a writable control store, WCS-11, that plugs into that slot. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From river at zip.com.au Sat Nov 25 01:32:17 2006 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:32:17 +1100 Subject: Northstar Horizon References: <200611250316.kAP3FawG022577@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005301c71063$d5894ba0$6501a8c0@riverxp> Hi, I've recently acquired an old Northstar Horizon S-100 system. It has 3 cards; the ZPB-A2 processor card, MDS-A3 disk controller card and the RAM-32-A1 card. It has no diskette drives. The MDS-A3 card has a blown tantalum capacitor (C6) and the motherboard has a blown tantalum capacitor (C1). The motherboard is a HRZ-MB-4. I'm going to clean it up and replace the blown caps and run some checks on the power supply. I also have downloaded the relevant documentation to check the processor and disk controller cards, and also the HRZ-MB documentation. Assuming all goes well I need to get my hands on some disk images to run on this system. Does anyone know where I can get such images? Also, can I use old IBM PC full-height 360K disk drives in this machine? regards river From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 25 01:44:18 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:44:18 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <005301c71063$d5894ba0$6501a8c0@riverxp> References: <200611250316.kAP3FawG022577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <005301c71063$d5894ba0$6501a8c0@riverxp> Message-ID: <4567F452.2070900@msm.umr.edu> river wrote: > Hi, > > I've recently acquired an old Northstar Horizon S-100 system. I don't recall whether the standard shugarts would work. I used MPI drives which could be strapped to do the hard sectoring correctly. I think there was some issue with how long it took the heads to load, and how long they stayed loaded with the Horizon. And of course the sectoring was hard sectored and those are rare these days. i have a big stash somewhere but probably can't duplicate anything for quite some time for a real horizon. I think there was some site with all the horizon sig disks archived. I think the fellow who used to supply boot disks who's archive was nuked by his passing probably was a good bet at one time. Hopefully someone else can help you with the media. Look for 10 sector verbatims where you can find them. Then the problem for me would be digging out a working machine and my media at the same time. I hope to vist my horizon pile in january, and if there are some floppies there repost or email me off list and I'll look and see what works. (I live in California, and my pile of Horizons are in Missouri) Jim From bear at typewritten.org Sat Nov 25 02:14:10 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 00:14:10 -0800 Subject: Looking for AIX 4.1.5 or .6 In-Reply-To: <112420061949.3356.45674CC200031F3E00000D1C21603763169B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <112420061949.3356.45674CC200031F3E00000D1C21603763169B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2006, at 11:49 AM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I have PowerPc ThinkPad that needs a early version of AIX 4.1.5 > or .6. > Anyone have a copy. The one I have has it on the drive but no > Password. Any 4.1.4 or 4.1.5 will work on the ThinkPad. There is an update for 4.1.4 to give you 4.1.5; there was no AIX 4.1.6. If it's a Woodfield (type 6020) I can send you the patches you'll need. Any other model will work from a straight install without additional gyration. Drop me a line off list. ok bear From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 25 03:19:11 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:19:11 -0500 Subject: Special HD20 INIT file Message-ID: <003401c71072$c5252310$0b01a8c0@game> Apple apparently made a special INIT file for the HD20 (non SCSI HD that connected to the back of a Mac 128K or 512K using the 19 pin floppy port) so that unsupported machines (like an SE/30) could read the drive and copy the files from it (but not write to it). Anybody here happen to have a copy of this special INIT file? Somebody has some data they need off the drive (he is in Japan) and only has an SE/30 to use. Anything pre Nubus is out of my experience level so I figured somebody here might have the file needed. Thanks, TZ From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Sat Nov 25 04:13:32 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 03:13:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: Mystery Q-bus boards Message-ID: <1164449612.4568174caa41a@www.rogerwilco.org> Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Notes on the Clearpoint Q-RAM 44B memory card > {snip} Chuck, this is good information! After reviewing your supplied info, I got to fiddling with my board. As it turns out, there was a hand-written sticky label (with just the number "225" on it) on the module handle. Must have been some previous owners ID tag. Well, it's old enough that with my handling, it started to fall off, so I just peeled it away. Underneath I found a small, but machine printed, label that reads "44B". Though the etched markings indicate "11B", I must have the same board that you have! With that found out, I was confident in your information and tried the board in an 11/73 system. Sure enough it works great! All 2MB (1MW) is visible and though I haven't run any serious memory tests, STRTRK runs fine under RT11. For the record (and if you don't mind that I borrow your artwork) here are my jumper configurations for 000000 base address; 256Kb chips; 2MB (1MW) memory size; parity CSR at standard; and 22-bit bus: 1 0 | A o== | | B o== 3 | o== 2 | o== 1 | | C ==o b1 | ==o b0 | | D o== 1M | o== 512k | o== 256k | | E o== 21 F ==o | o== 20 ==o | o== 19 ooo | o== 18 | ---| | | ----------------------------- A: 18 bit Q-Bus 1 = 18bit, 0 = 22bit B: Parity Memory CSR Address base address is 17772100 + bit jumpers C: Chip size select b1: bank 1: 1 = 256k chips, 0 = 64k chips b0: bank 0: 1 = 256k chips, 0 = 64k chips D: Memory Size 1M: 1 = 2M, 0 = 1M 512k: 1 = 1M, 0 = 512k 256k: 1 = 512k, 0 = 256k E: Base address 1 = adr bit, 0 = adr bit F: ? I don't know how your F jumpers are set, but mine (as indicated above) don't seem to hurt. Until we can find some documentation, I'm just going to leave them the way they are. (Yes, F1 and F2 are jumpered to the left (1), and F3 is removed altogether.) Thanks a lot! J From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Sat Nov 25 04:54:23 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 03:54:23 -0700 (MST) Subject: Mystery Qbus boards Message-ID: <1164452063.456820df91ab1@www.rogerwilco.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 22, 2006, at 8:05 PM, Charles H. Dickman wrote: >> I also have DT2769, DT3371 and DT3382 boards without documentation. >> I emailed Data Translation for any support information and they >> didn't have any "at hand", but would get me copies from their >> archives for a service charge of US$50 or something. Since I didn't >> really have any use for them, whatever they were, I passed. >> >> The DT2769 is a KWV11-C Programmable Real-Time Clock. If you look >> in the Micro/PDP-11 Handbook page 214, the boards are essentially >> identical. Yes, I had noticed that they are very, very similar. In fact the system (see more below) that contains all of these DT boards, also contains a real KWV11. Why the system needs both is also a mystery to me... >> >> The analog hybrid (?) block on the DT3382 is the same as that on >> the ADV11. The DC006 and DC010 chips indicate that it does DMA. >> >> Never figured out the DT3371 either. It has two analog outputs >> though. :-) It also does DMA (DC006 and DC010 again). You both may be interested in having a look at the system that these boards all came in. It is a Data Translations LAB DATAX box with an H9275A backplane and, by the time I got it, an LSI-11/2 CPU. The front panel is really also the rear panel. There is a DLV11-J with four serial lines brougth to 9-pin D connectors, and some BNC-type connectors for signals in and out from the box. What kind of software goes with it I don't know, but I do see the system auto-booting to some roms on the DT3382-8DI board (I think) and I wonder if just starts processing when powered up. Don't know for sure. There is a label on the underside of the top cover that I believe represents the original configuration when it came out of DT: 1- KDF11 & KEF11AA | D4 Interface 2- DLV-11-J (177560) | 256KB Memory 3- LDT3382-DI (771420) -> 4- LDT2768 (167770) | LDT3371 (771140 / 420) 5- LDT2769 (170420) | (empty) 6- (empty) | (empty) 7- (empty) | (empty) 8- (empty) | (empty) 9- KPV-11-A (177546) | (empty) I have no idea what the 'D4 Interface' is. It's no longer in the box. I've added a couple of images of the box to my Mystery Boards webpage: http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#DATAX > I'd not mind getting my grubby paws on those Data Translation > boards if you or J want to unload them, maybe some swappage or > something. I do lots of related hacking and would likely pop for the > $50 for the docs before too long so they can be used. (and get them > to Al of course) Thanks for the interest. For now, though, I think I'll hang on to this DT gear since it looks to be a 'system'. Perhaps I should spring for the $50 doc set. How long ago did you make your inquiry to DT? >> Didn't Data Translation always have the company presidents face in >> every advertisement? I can see the face, but don't remember the >> name... [Google for it] Fred Molinari. > He was rather hilarious in many of their ads...that always gave me > a laugh. Oh...ahhh...before my time, I guess. I must have missed that 'show'. J From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Nov 25 00:12:05 2006 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 00:12:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Copyright Exemptions for In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Nov 24, 2006 09:53:34 AM Message-ID: <200611250612.kAP6C6IC006479@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >> So its not granting it carte >> blanche for every person, but it is good news for those of us who run >> actual museums or archives. > >What museum/archive are you associated with? "csd.uwm.edu" would be the >Computing Services Division of the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, >where I worked in the early 80's. At least back then, there was no archive >associated with CSD. > >--al (Software Curator, Computer History Museum) > Heya Al, I'm attending (and have worked at) UWM as well. I run E2M (www.classicgaming.com/gamingmuseum), which is a portable computer and gaming museum (for events, etc.) as well as an archive. You probably knew a friend of mine in CSD - Dave Rasmussen. By the way, CSD doesn't exist anymore - that's just a legacy mask set up. I&MT is the name of the organization now, and its campus wide rather than just over in EMS. Most of the mainframes are long gone from the basement there as well. Marty From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 25 04:46:45 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:46:45 +0000 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4567047B.8090706@gjcp.net> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> <4567005E.30703@dunnington.plus.com> <4567047B.8090706@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45681F15.3050906@dunnington.plus.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 24/11/2006 13:13, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the >>> floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. >> Is your 11/73 a KDJ11-A or KDJ11-B? If the former, it may not be >> compatible with the floating point hardware anyway (M8192 without a YA >> or YC suffix). Some early 15MHz KDJ11-B boards aren't either. > It's an M8192-YB. That one should be OK. Sorry, there was a typo in my post; I should have written -YB not -YA. -YC is a -YB with an accelerator factory-fitted. > There is a 40-pin > socket on the board though, that I am given to understand is for the > accelerator. All the M8192 boards have that; it doesn't necessarily mean it works :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Nov 25 05:56:50 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:56:50 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <005301c71063$d5894ba0$6501a8c0@riverxp> Message-ID: <200611251101.kAPB1t0K026282@hosting.monisys.ca> > It has no diskette drives. The MDS-A3 card has a blown tantalum capacitor > (C6) and the motherboard has a blown tantalum capacitor (C1). The > motherboard is a HRZ-MB-4. Make sure you have the disk controller designation right - My single density NorthStar controllers are called MDC-An and the double density ones are called MDS-AD(n). You need to figure out if you have a single density or double density controller in order to determine which boot disk you need. If it's MDS, I think it should be double-density, but I expected the latter part to be "-AD3". I have photos of both controller types on my site the difference between a single-density and a double-density is easy to see . > I'm going to clean it up and replace the blown caps and run some checks on > the power supply. I also have downloaded the relevant documentation to check > the processor and disk controller cards, and also the HRZ-MB documentation. I have a lot of NorthStar material and documentation on my site - much of it in the Altair section (One of my Altairs has a NorthStar controller). > Assuming all goes well I need to get my hands on some disk images to run on > this system. Does anyone know where I can get such images? Also, can I use > old IBM PC full-height 360K disk drives in this machine? I have many images for both single and double density Horizon systems on my site - if It's SD, your choices are NorthStar DOS and my own DMF system. If DD, the choices are NorthStar DOS, CP/M and UCSD Pascal. But you will have a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem - the NorthStar disks are hard-sectored, which means that you can only make them on a system with the NorthStar controller. Unless you have other N* systems kicking around you will have to use the Horizon. But the Horizon has no front panel, or other means to easily bootstrap code into it other than the disk drive. If you happen to have an S-100 ROM card, you could use it to bootstrap the Horizon. I've got a very simple monitor that you can use to bootstrap in the NorthStar tools archive. Also - in case you are not aware, the 10 sector diskette are physically different than a typical soft-sector diskette (11 sector holes instead of one) - you need 10-sector diskettes for the Horizon which can be difficult to find. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Sat Nov 25 05:07:20 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:07:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Dilog DQ-20 & DQ-130 docs? (More Mystery Qbus boards) Message-ID: <1164452840.456823e8f0663@www.rogerwilco.org> I've got a couple of additional boards that I've rustled up, and can't seem to locate any information on them. Can anyone point me to a source? I've also posted images of these two boards on my Mystery Qbus Boards page: www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#Dilog_DQ20 www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#Dilog_DQ130 A big thanks to all that have responded to my request for more information on my handful of 'Mystery Boards'. Thanks, Charles, I now have enough information on the Clearpoint Q-RAM 44B (I thought it was 11B) 2MB memory board to make use of it (still not sure what the 'F' jumpers are for...) J From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 25 05:27:54 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 03:27:54 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200611251101.kAPB1t0K026282@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200611251101.kAPB1t0K026282@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <456828BA.9060109@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: > >I have many images for both single and double density Horizon systems on my >site - if It's SD, your choices are NorthStar DOS and my own DMF system. If >DD, the choices are NorthStar DOS, CP/M and UCSD Pascal. > >But you will have a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem - the NorthStar disks are >hard-sectored, which means that you can only make them on a system with >the NorthStar controller. Unless you have other N* systems kicking around >you will have to use the Horizon. > > Dave, thanks for mentioning your site. I knew someone had some material online, and it is probably you I was thinking of. As to the chicken or the egg, I took the approach of getting the bios code to run the horizon controller, and generated a horizon CPM that would run one of my Tarbell controllers in the box with the Horizon controller. it only took a bit of editing to boot the cpm with both, and it would sysgen and format either diskette, 8" or 5 1/4" and also run pip for copying data to and from each format. I just split it up so I had 2 drive letters for each type, so A,B was one, and C,D was the other. I flipped the code and merged the horizon code into the tarbell code later. I don't recall back then as to my chicken and egg problem which was how to get the sources needed to do the tarbell onto the horizon, but I think I captured a listing via a serial program and edited the tarbell bios stuff into the cpm on the horizon. After this bootstrap, which involved maybe a hundred lines of code, I could merge up enough to do everything via diskette, then finish. Now, if you have access to moving data from a simulated CP/M to 8" and 5 1/4" you could do the editing anywhere, and go back to the 5 1/4". but someone has to bootstrap you onto the 5 1/4" northstar, since it is pretty much one of a kind. many different ways exist onto 8" but the problem dave mentions means you have to start up somehow with a few 5 1/4" diskettes, and generate your boot, and I assume a way to assemble, test, then use the horizon bios, so you can adapt what you need. The only thing that a true horizon has is a 256 byte boot, and I don't know of anything that does anything but floppy booting exists. I remember the boot rom gets mapped into somewhere in the Exxx range, and reads in a 256 byte sector, then jumps to it, before going away. I don't think you could pull it and get a serial program into it to read one of the serial ports, but I won't say never to the crowd on this list. And my memory of 256 bytes may be off, I vaguly recall maybe on 32 bytes are visible and used by the processor at boot. People had to use pretty small proms in the early days of the hobby. Jim From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 25 06:43:02 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:43:02 +0000 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45683A56.4040203@dunnington.plus.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: >> >> Would it be possible to do the same sort of trick with the LSI-11? >> I've got an 11/03 and it would be nice to have floating-point :-). > > There were a couple of floating point options for 11/03. I haven't > actually seen either. > > The first, FIS-11, was a ROM that goes into the empty socket. > > The second, FPP-11, was an add-on board that connected to the 11/03 via > the empty socket. I think you're confusing this with 11/23, or maybe 11/40 options. There is a microcode ROM for the 11/03, which contains EIS/FIS (ie, both the Extended Instruction Set and the Floating Instruction Set). It's called KEV11, not FIS-11. There is a FIS option (and a separate EIS option) for an 11/40. However, the FIS is not the same as other PDP-11 floating point instructions. For a start, it's all stack-based (no register operations) and it uses a different floating point format. Which is why the opcodes are different too. There's a similarly-named option called KEF11 for an 11/23, which does implement the normal PDP-11 floating point instructions (in microcode). It needs the MMU present, because it uses registers in the MMU; it doesn't implement EIS because the basic 11/23 KDF-11 chipset already has EIS, unlike the KD-11 chipset in the 11/03. It doesn't implement FIS either, because there's no point. There is also a quad board with a floating point processor which plugs into an 11/23 (or 11/24) instead of the KEF-11; this is called an FPF-11, and it doesn't need the MMU registers because it has its own. I've never heard of an FPP-11. There are several FP11-x boards for Unibus machines. > As I understand it, the empty socket could be used for either floating > point or the commercial instruction set. Since there's only one empty > socket, you can't have both floating point and the CIS. There's no CIS for an 11/03; there is a CIS option for KDF-11 machines, which consists of a carrier that plugs into a *pair* of microm sockets on an 11/23 or 11/24. The carrier holds six chips. There's also a CIS for the 11/44 (two board set). > There's also a writable control store, WCS-11, that plugs into that > slot. Yes, that's a KUV-11, M8018. I suppose if you could fit the floating point instruction set into 1024 microcode words, you'd almost be able to implement floating point -- but there would still be no registers available to operate on. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jclang at notms.net Sat Nov 25 07:01:10 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:01:10 -0500 Subject: Mystery Qbus boards In-Reply-To: <1164452063.456820df91ab1@www.rogerwilco.org> References: <1164452063.456820df91ab1@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <06112508011002.15660@bell> On Saturday 25 November 2006 05:54, you wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Nov 22, 2006, at 8:05 PM, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > >> I also have DT2769, DT3371 and DT3382 boards without documentation. > >> I emailed Data Translation for any support information and they > >> didn't have any "at hand", but would get me copies from their > >> archives for a service charge of US$50 or something. Since I didn't > >> really have any use for them, whatever they were, I passed. > >> > >> The DT2769 is a KWV11-C Programmable Real-Time Clock. If you look > >> in the Micro/PDP-11 Handbook page 214, the boards are essentially > >> identical. > > Yes, I had noticed that they are very, very similar. In fact the system > (see more below) that contains all of these DT boards, also contains > a real KWV11. Why the system needs both is also a mystery to me... > > >> The analog hybrid (?) block on the DT3382 is the same as that on > >> the ADV11. The DC006 and DC010 chips indicate that it does DMA. > >> > >> Never figured out the DT3371 either. It has two analog outputs > >> though. :-) It also does DMA (DC006 and DC010 again). > > You both may be interested in having a look at the system that these > boards all came in. It is a Data Translations LAB DATAX box with an > H9275A backplane and, by the time I got it, an LSI-11/2 CPU. > > The front panel is really also the rear panel. There is a DLV11-J with > four serial lines brougth to 9-pin D connectors, and some BNC-type > connectors for signals in and out from the box. What kind of software > goes with it I don't know, but I do see the system auto-booting to some > roms on the DT3382-8DI board (I think) and I wonder if just starts > processing when powered up. Don't know for sure. There is a label > on the underside of the top cover that I believe represents the original > configuration when it came out of DT: > > 1- KDF11 & KEF11AA | D4 Interface > 2- DLV-11-J (177560) | 256KB Memory > 3- LDT3382-DI (771420) -> > 4- LDT2768 (167770) | LDT3371 (771140 / 420) > 5- LDT2769 (170420) | (empty) > 6- (empty) | (empty) > 7- (empty) | (empty) > 8- (empty) | (empty) > 9- KPV-11-A (177546) | (empty) > > I have no idea what the 'D4 Interface' is. It's no longer in the box. > > I've added a couple of images of the box to my Mystery Boards > webpage: > > http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#DATAX > > > I'd not mind getting my grubby paws on those Data Translation > > boards if you or J want to unload them, maybe some swappage or > > something. I do lots of related hacking and would likely pop for the > > $50 for the docs before too long so they can be used. (and get them > > to Al of course) > > Thanks for the interest. For now, though, I think I'll hang on to this DT > gear since it looks to be a 'system'. Perhaps I should spring for the > $50 doc set. How long ago did you make your inquiry to DT? > > >> Didn't Data Translation always have the company presidents face in > >> every advertisement? I can see the face, but don't remember the > >> name... [Google for it] Fred Molinari. > > > > He was rather hilarious in many of their ads...that always gave me > > a laugh. > > Oh...ahhh...before my time, I guess. I must have missed that 'show'. > > J One of the boards (SMS le interface) looks like an interface to a disk controller. SMS made a dual disk system that had a 8" floppy and an 8" hard disk in a 3RU cabinet. The system has a controller in it that connected to the host via a 40 pin ribbon cable. I think the "le interface" is the host end of that connection... I still have one of the disk cabinets and controller. (somewhere) I'd never seen the bus interface till now. I wouldn't mind working out a trade... joe lang From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 25 07:45:30 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:45:30 -0500 Subject: Copyright Exemptions for In-Reply-To: <200611241649.kAOGn9Lw032669@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200611241649.kAOGn9Lw032669@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <20061125134530.E69E5BA420D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > >An article on Yahoo News >ap_on_hi_te/digital_copyright> dealing with recent copyright > >exemptions granted by the US Library of Congress had an item of > >interest for classiccmp listers buried down at the bottom: > > > >"He granted two exemptions dealing with computer obsolescence. For > >computer software and video games that require machines no longer > >available, copy-protection controls may be circumvented for archival > >purposes. Locks on computer programs also may be broken if they > >require dongles ? small computer attachments ? that are damaged and > >can't be replaced." > > CRC > The article is missleading. If you read the actual statement at the > Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/) it clearly states that > this is only for libraries and archives. So its not granting it carte > blanche for every person, but it is good news for those of us who run > actual museums or archives. Possibly this will inspire close collaboration between individuals and archives/museums/libraries, for the good of both. My reading of the law makes it sounds like only binaries will be covered by the exemption, which is disappointing. Tim. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Nov 25 07:52:07 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:52:07 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1445.192.168.0.4.1164462727.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, November 24, 2006 3:55 am, Chris M said: > not the one with the "pop-up" lcd, but didn't Amstrad > make a Atari ST-looking model (essentially a whole > computer in the keyboard) with presumably an 8088? > Can't find it on old-computers.com. Not much but the > above mentioned PPC-640 shows up in an casual google > search. old-computers.com isn't the be-all and end-all of lists you know :) Mind, I'm surprised they don't have the PC20 and PC200 listed. The PC20 was an 8086-flavoured DOS 5 machine with very limited expandability, ie it had 2 ISA slots but they pointed upwards so if you had something like a 20mb hardcard it stuck out of the top of the machine! The PC200 was a black version branded as a Sinclair machine but otherwise identical.... http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Amstrad/pc20.php http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Sinclair/pc200/index.php -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 08:03:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:03:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd - pc tech journals Message-ID: <929499.54545.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I also have Jan and Feb of 85 --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > 86 and prior. I have some from 86-87, so trades are > also of interest. And if anyone (even Pat ;) should > need an issue or article, cram it! LOL LOL only kidding > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Nov 25 10:17:58 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:17:58 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <456828BA.9060109@msm.umr.edu> References: <200611251101.kAPB1t0K026282@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200611251523.kAPFN3wv012542@hosting.monisys.ca> > many different ways exist onto 8" but the problem dave mentions means > you have to > start up somehow with a few 5 1/4" diskettes, and generate your boot, > and I assume > a way to assemble, test, then use the horizon bios, so you can adapt > what you need. > > The only thing that a true horizon has is a 256 byte boot, and I don't > know of anything > that does anything but floppy booting exists. > > I remember the boot rom gets mapped into somewhere in the Exxx range, > and reads > in a 256 byte sector, then jumps to it, before going away. I don't > think you could > pull it and get a serial program into it to read one of the serial > ports, but I won't say > never to the crowd on this list. > > And my memory of 256 bytes may be off, I vaguly recall maybe on 32 bytes > are visible > and used by the processor at boot. People had to use pretty small proms > in the early > days of the hobby. I provide a couple of images with my tools, which include the NorthStar DOS and the serial client in one binary image that you load at $2000 and execute - it will then communicate via serial with the PC side of my program and allow you to download disk images directly to the drive. I include the serial I/O portion in source so you can customize it to different serial I/O if required. So ... there are basically two ways to get the system up and running: 1) you have another S-100 crate, and can make 1K free at E800-EBFF, then you are laughing, as all you need to do is install the N* controller, load the client code under whatever system you have running, and launch it. 2) If you don't have another system running, then you need to bootstrap the client code into your box. If you have a box with a front panel, then you can toggle in a small loader to load the client. If you have a faceless box (like a Horizon), then you need to use a ROM monitor to load the code. I have a couple of tiny monitors which has enough capability to do this (my PC client will in fact "type in" the 8080 side using memory edit commands and can be configured for most monitors). Many CPU cards like SSM CB2 have a ROM socket so this is easy. Actually IIRC the NorthStar CPU has a 1K ROM socket. So all you might need to do is put the monitor in the ROM socket and ... The NorthStar CPU has jumpers to set the power-on-jump address, normally this is E800 (DD) or E900 (SD), however you can set it to any xx00 block address. So if you put in a ROM (either on the N* board or in a separate ROM card), set the POJ jumpers to the right address and you should be up and away. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Nov 25 09:42:52 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:42:52 -0500 Subject: Dilog DQ-20 & DQ-130 docs? (More Mystery Qbus boards) In-Reply-To: <1164452840.456823e8f0663@www.rogerwilco.org> References: <1164452840.456823e8f0663@www.rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4568647C.20308@nktelco.net> J Blaser wrote: > > I've also posted images of these two boards on my Mystery Qbus > Boards page: > > www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#Dilog_DQ130 http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html DQ130 Qbus, Pertec I/O, TM11, 4 drives, Quad Height -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 25 10:32:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:32:35 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <456828BA.9060109@msm.umr.edu> References: <200611251101.kAPB1t0K026282@hosting.monisys.ca>, <456828BA.9060109@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4567FFA3.13592.EF9C223@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2006 at 3:27, jim stephens wrote: > And my memory of 256 bytes may be off, I vaguly recall maybe on 32 bytes > are visible and used by the processor at boot. People had to use pretty small proms > in the early days of the hobby. I recall that the disk controller had a small bipolar prom and that it was indeed 32 bytes. It was miles better than toggling the boot code by hand... A 256-byte boot prom back then would have been an almost obscene luxury... ;) --Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Nov 25 10:45:41 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:45:41 -0600 Subject: DSSI Trilink connector in Renton Message-ID: <654c71a6848a4473a8f4f327b9959bf6@valleyimplants.com> Any interest in one of these? It's a DEC DSSI trilink connector- HD68 to 2x (microribbon? nanoribbon? not sure) 50, as used on the best HSD arrays- etc. etc. etc. In Renton, WA near Seattle. From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 10:59:39 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:59:39 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <200611250315.kAP3FawA022577@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611250315.kAP3FawA022577@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4568767B.4000708@yahoo.com> Right! Besides, Mark Twain was once heard to remark: "It takes an uncreative man to spell a word only one way!" :) Al Phila, PA P.S.: Got the LNW-80 yesterday. It doesn't work properly, and I can't lift it easily due to an injury. But, my friend Tom will stop by and help me get it running. I can't wait! > From: Fred Cisin > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > >>> > > I much prefer clarity and correct spelling to "coolness" >>> > > on this list. >>> >> > Excellent. Let's talk about "depricate." >> > > I see a [slight] qualitative difference between accidental/ignorant > misspellinq v deliberate attempts to be "cool" by creating new words. > > > When I went back to college as a grad student, I was worried that my bad > spelling would be an embarrassment. It turned out that MOST of the people > that I dealt with were substantially worse! So, now I have a license > plate frame that proudly proclaims that I am a "UC Berkeley Aluminum". > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Nov 25 12:29:16 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:29:16 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4567FFA3.13592.EF9C223@cclist.sydex.com> References: <456828BA.9060109@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca> > On 25 Nov 2006 at 3:27, jim stephens wrote: > > > And my memory of 256 bytes may be off, I vaguly recall maybe on 32 bytes > > are visible and used by the processor at boot. People had to use pretty small proms > > in the early days of the hobby. > > I recall that the disk controller had a small bipolar prom and that > it was indeed 32 bytes. It was miles better than toggling the boot > code by hand... A 256-byte boot prom back then would have been an > almost obscene luxury... ;) Well - then I guess NorthStar was obscene... :-) The single-density controller does indeed have 256 byte of ROM (in three chips!) The double-density one has 512 bytes of ROM. The controller occupies 1K of memory space from E800-EBFF E800-EFFF ROM on DD, unused or mirror ROM on SD E900-E9FF ROM on both SD and DD EA00-EAFF Hardware control (address is write value) EB00-EBFF Write data (address is data) I might have EA00 & EB00 reversed, it's been a while since I was in the nuts and bolts of the N* controller. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 11:42:20 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:42:20 -0500 Subject: PC20 / PC200 In-Reply-To: <200611251702.kAPH1sog032741@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611251702.kAPH1sog032741@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4568807C.6050602@yahoo.com> There is also another "all in one" PC Clone similar to these two machines, though not as nice looking... VTech, the manufacturer of the Laser 128 series of Apple Clones also made several PC Clones. One of them was the Laser 512XT. I have one of them. I'm missing the Power Supply for it, so I don't know if it works. I haven't been able to find one on eBay or anywhere else. It's funny that the PC20 / PC200 was meant to compete with the Atari ST, since Atari also made several PC clones. Every company did, even Commodore at the time. I think my favorite PC Clone was the first one I've ever used, the Columbia MPC. Though I've used several PC Clones over the years: I liked the Mindset too. Although I don't have one of those. Al From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 25 12:02:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:02:05 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <456828BA.9060109@msm.umr.edu>, <4567FFA3.13592.EF9C223@cclist.sydex.com>, <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4568149D.4375.F4BB23C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2006 at 13:29, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Well - then I guess NorthStar was obscene... :-) My comment was directed toward your reference to the Tarbell controller, not the NS. > The single-density controller does indeed have 256 byte of ROM (in three chips!) > The double-density one has 512 bytes of ROM. A question crops up: why? What's the point--you need only enough to load a sngle sector. Was the NS controller so badly implemented that it required that much code to read a single sector? Cheers, Chuck From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 25 12:04:26 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:04:26 EST Subject: Special HD20 INIT file Message-ID: <32b.2d4b0eaf.3299dfaa@aol.com> In a message dated 11/25/2006 4:20:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, teoz at neo.rr.com writes: Apple apparently made a special INIT file for the HD20 (non SCSI HD that connected to the back of a Mac 128K or 512K using the 19 pin floppy port) so that unsupported machines (like an SE/30) could read the drive and copy the files from it (but not write to it). Anybody here happen to have a copy of this special INIT file? Somebody has some data they need off the drive (he is in Japan) and only has an SE/30 to use. Anything pre Nubus is out of my experience level so I figured somebody here might have the file needed ------------------------------ IIRC, Apple tech support mentioned that the SE/30 was not supported. However, I plugged my HD20 into a IIci and it worked just fine. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Nov 25 13:20:51 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:20:51 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568149D.4375.F4BB23C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> > On 25 Nov 2006 at 13:29, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Well - then I guess NorthStar was obscene... :-) > > My comment was directed toward your reference to the Tarbell > controller, not the NS. I didn't mention the Tarbell - I was going by the subject line. > > The single-density controller does indeed have 256 byte of ROM (in three chips!) > > The double-density one has 512 bytes of ROM. > > A question crops up: why? What's the point--you need only enough to > load a sngle sector. Was the NS controller so badly implemented > that it required that much code to read a single sector? It's a complete hardware (no chip) floppy controller - knowing how it works, I think you would be very hard pressed to successfully home the head and read a sector in 32 bytes. In 256 bytes, they implemented that, and part of the OS disk driver - it's kinda weird how they did it, the OS call links back to the disk ROM, which in turn links back to the OS code for the write/verify functions they didn't have in the ROM - when I did my DMF OS for the NorthStar, I had to completely abandon their ROM because of the fixed references to locations in the 2000+ block where the N* OS loads (mine loaded at F000 up above the disk controller leaving the rest of RAM free. I have a commented disassembly of the SD ROM up on my site in case anyone is *really* interested. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 25 12:41:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:41:37 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4568149D.4375.F4BB23C@cclist.sydex.com>, <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45681DE1.6868.F6FE2BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2006 at 14:20, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I didn't mention the Tarbell - I was going by the subject line. My bad--I ignored the number of right-pointing doohickeys in the post- -it was Jim who mentioned the Tarbell. > It's a complete hardware (no chip) floppy controller - knowing how it works, > I think you would be very hard pressed to successfully home the head and > read a sector in 32 bytes. Probably so--and perhaps it was cheaper to do that way, given the soft-sectored alternatives. Intel used a two-board 3000-series bit- slice implementation on the MDS and IMSAI used a two-board 8080 implementation on theirs. (I never could get the IMSAI controller working reliably enough for everyday use.) Even the WD1691 and 1771 were very expensive items when they first appeared. Cheers, Chuck From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Nov 25 12:41:41 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:41:41 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: River, I happen to have a Northstar on the table now, and I am in the process of making backups of the system disks now that I have it up and running. Here is a picture: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/northstar/horizon/northstar_horizon_card_view. jpg Contact me off list for a boot disk. http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/d_nstar.html ..is a good place to start for documentation and manuals. Bill D > >Hi, > >I've recently acquired an old Northstar Horizon S-100 system. > >Assuming all goes well I need to get my hands on some disk images to run on >this system. Does anyone know where I can get such images? Also, can I use >old IBM PC full-height 360K disk drives in this machine? > >regards >river From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 25 12:49:43 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:49:43 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon - Tarbell In-Reply-To: <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca> <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45689047.7070602@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I didn't mention the Tarbell - I was going by the subject line. > I mentioned Tarbell. I knew Don and used his controller since he was around here in LA and the controllers could be had for a reasonable price. The other alternatives were way more expensive at the time. Of course this can go down the way of how the disks were not formatted properly and the contollers were a real pain to get going, but if you stick with the low density disks, and had the controller fully reved up, they were usable. I can't say bad things from first hand experience with the controllers, since what problems I had Don had fixed, and his company was available nearby to get things fixed. I wan't much of a builder then, so I was lucky in that regard. Many thanks to my friend Frank A. who helped me with testing the conroller and debugging problems, as I did for him. Also to Dick Culberton who was the main fixer of all things Tarbell. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 25 13:50:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:50:00 -0700 Subject: Model 19 teletype on ebay Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Sat Nov 25 13:55:10 2006 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:55:10 +0000 Subject: classic ii In-Reply-To: <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200611251734.kAPHYLDY008080@hosting.monisys.ca> <200611251826.kAPIQ1Qr030110@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45689F9E.1060504@retrobbs.org> Hi guys. I've got a mac classic ii analog board... but it's for 120v instead of 240v. The circuit board looks identical ... as do most of the components. Anyone know what would need to be changed to make it 240v? Thanks, Mark From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 25 13:56:01 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:56:01 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003801c710cb$bb9be4b0$6601a8c0@barry> The real problem is that it uses HARD-SECTOR 5.25" diskettes, which are just about impossible to find. Yes, you can use a PC compatible 5.25" 360k drive, if it's jumpered properly. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 25 13:57:04 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:57:04 -0800 Subject: SMS LE interface Message-ID: > One of the boards (SMS le interface) looks like an interface to a > disk controller. SMS made a dual disk system that had a 8" floppy > and an 8" hard disk in a 3RU cabinet. The system has a controller > in it that connected to the host via a 40 pin ribbon cable. > I think the "le interface" is the host end of that connection... I still > have one of the disk cabinets and controller. (somewhere) Documentation for the winchester/floppy subsystem would be a nice thing to find. SMS made several different subsystems in the 80's with that interface which weren't always compatible with DEC controllers. I have some documentation on the FW series under sms on bitsavers 3000632D_FW_OEM_Feb82.pdf From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 25 14:02:16 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:02:16 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003901c710cc$9b205a30$6601a8c0@barry> Re: "But you will have a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem - the NorthStar disks are hard-sectored, which means that you can only make them on a system with the NorthStar controller. Unless you have other N* systems kicking around you will have to use the Horizon. But the Horizon has no front panel, or other means to easily bootstrap code into it other than the disk drive." Install the North Star disk controller card into a CP/M system configured such that there are no memory or I/O port conflicts. Then you can assemble source code of the NorthStar DOS using CP/M's ASM, and load it into RAM using DDT. There are routines in the NorthStar ROM (which will now exist in the CP/M system) for formatting a disk and writing out RAM to the diskette. It's possible for a NorthStar controller and a typical CP/M soft sector controller to co-exist in the same system at the same time, if you resolve any I/O port and memory conflicts. This allows the use of CP/M and all of it's facilities (in particular, source code editors, ASM and DDT) to create a first NorthStar diskette. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:56:50 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <200611251101.kAPB1t0K026282 at hosting.monisys.ca> > It has no diskette drives. The MDS-A3 card has a blown tantalum capacitor > (C6) and the motherboard has a blown tantalum capacitor (C1). The > motherboard is a HRZ-MB-4. Make sure you have the disk controller designation right - My single density NorthStar controllers are called MDC-An and the double density ones are called MDS-AD(n). You need to figure out if you have a single density or double density controller in order to determine which boot disk you need. If it's MDS, I think it should be double-density, but I expected the latter part to be "-AD3". I have photos of both controller types on my site the difference between a single-density and a double-density is easy to see . > I'm going to clean it up and replace the blown caps and run some checks on > the power supply. I also have downloaded the relevant documentation to check > the processor and disk controller cards, and also the HRZ-MB documentation. I have a lot of NorthStar material and documentation on my site - much of it in the Altair section (One of my Altairs has a NorthStar controller). > Assuming all goes well I need to get my hands on some disk images to run on > this system. Does anyone know where I can get such images? Also, can I use > old IBM PC full-height 360K disk drives in this machine? I have many images for both single and double density Horizon systems on my site - if It's SD, your choices are NorthStar DOS and my own DMF system. If DD, the choices are NorthStar DOS, CP/M and UCSD Pascal. But you will have a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem - the NorthStar disks are hard-sectored, which means that you can only make them on a system with the NorthStar controller. Unless you have other N* systems kicking around you will have to use the Horizon. But the Horizon has no front panel, or other means to easily bootstrap code into it other than the disk drive. If you happen to have an S-100 ROM card, you could use it to bootstrap the Horizon. I've got a very simple monitor that you can use to bootstrap in the NorthStar tools archive. Also - in case you are not aware, the 10 sector diskette are physically different than a typical soft-sector diskette (11 sector holes instead of one) - you need 10-sector diskettes for the Horizon which can be difficult to find. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html ****************** From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 25 14:03:31 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:03:31 -0800 Subject: FREE pen plotter (and other goodies) in Kent, WA Message-ID: <200611251203310374.155491D2@192.168.42.129> Fellow Techies, I've said it on my web site, and I'll say it here: Scrounging is not so much ongoing acquisition as it is a 'flow-thru' of goodies. Any tech-scrounger will eventually hit the point where they Just Need To Move Stuff Out. Such is the case with me right now, so I'd like to take a moment here to feed back to the same 'techie food chain' that I've benefited from for so many moons. Specifically: I've got the following FREEBIES available for PICKUP ONLY, NO SHIPPING in Kent, Washington. The only condition I place on the stuff is that whoever takes it needs to be taking it to USE IT, not to sell it for scrap. --HP DraftMaster SX Plus large-format pen plotter, in excellent condition. Includes a whole slew of pens (condition unknown, but they've been kept capped in an indoor environment) and two packages of big paper (including a pack of Size D sheets). This item is not that heavy, and it is on wheels, but it is bulky and tall. You will need at least a small pickup truck with an open bed to move it properly. --Compaq ProLiant 6500 server with twin Pentium Pro 200's. This was the box that was originally running my FTP archive (I've since upgraded to a later model of ProLiant). Working condition, 512MB RAM, and I think I could find a pair of rack slides and maybe even enough 4 gig drives to make a small array if you twist my arm enough. --A pair of Sun SPARC-10 systems with at least 50MHz HyperSPARC CPU modules installed. These used to run part of my Internet presence before I upgraded to HP NetServers, so I know they work. RAM and hard drives included (though I will need to wipe the drives before they're taken as they still contain security-sensitive data). If you'd like any or all of the goodies (hopefully all in one swell foop?), just drop me a line. Keep in mind that I don't currently subscribe to the CCTech or CCTalk lists, so you'll need to let me know via direct E-mail. If, for whatever reason, your E-mail bounces you can give me a buzz on 253-639-2996. Thanks in advance for helping me find this stuff a good home. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 25 14:14:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:14:04 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <003801c710cb$bb9be4b0$6601a8c0@barry> References: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <003801c710cb$bb9be4b0$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <4568338C.7663.FC486EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2006 at 14:56, Barry Watzman wrote: > The real problem is that it uses HARD-SECTOR 5.25" diskettes, which are just > about impossible to find. 10-sector 8" diskettes are also close to unobtainium. Maybe it's just better to go with soft-sector diskettes. Those 5.25" diskettes, BTW would have to be hard-sector high-density units. Given that most late-manufacture 5.25" drives are pretty accurate when it comes to motor speed, could one simply synthesize a SECTOR* signal, triggered by the index to simulate a hard-sectored drive on a 1.2MB unit? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 14:14:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:14:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a plotter... in or near nj not wa :( Message-ID: <310325.56061.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> offlist if you please :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 25 14:34:31 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:34:31 -0700 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568338C.7663.FC486EB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <003801c710cb$bb9be4b0$6601a8c0@barry> <4568338C.7663.FC486EB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Nov 2006 at 14:56, Barry Watzman wrote: > > >>The real problem is that it uses HARD-SECTOR 5.25" diskettes, which are just >>about impossible to find. > > > 10-sector 8" diskettes are also close to unobtainium. Maybe it's > just better to go with soft-sector diskettes. Those 5.25" diskettes, > BTW would have to be hard-sector high-density units. > > Given that most late-manufacture 5.25" drives are pretty accurate > when it comes to motor speed, could one simply synthesize a SECTOR* > signal, triggered by the index to simulate a hard-sectored drive on a > 1.2MB unit? > Can't one make a punch template and punch out the holes needed? Ok you have to kill a few disks in the process for the sleave and floppy part. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 25 16:09:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:09:50 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4568338C.7663.FC486EB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45684EAE.5255.102E8188@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2006 at 13:34, woodelf wrote: > Can't one make a punch template and punch out the holes needed? > Ok you have to kill a few disks in the process for the sleave and > floppy part. The envelope wouldn't matter--you can usually reuse those. I suppose you could punch some diskettes, but soft-sectored diskettes are still pretty easy to get. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 25 16:27:19 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:27:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Various problems Message-ID: <200611252227.kAPMRH5R007802@keith.ezwind.net> Hi all, Just came across this page (well, someone posted it to another email group) and thought some of you might like to take a look at it. http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/rampspoed.html Among the usual rubber turning to liquid/sticky stuff are dirty keyboards (under the keys), mould on old monitors and a harddrive that is damaged beyond repair :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Sat Nov 25 16:35:48 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:35:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Dilog DQ-20 & DQ-130 docs? (More Mystery Qbus boards) Message-ID: <1164494148.4568c544e9a98@www.jblaser.org> Charles wrote: > > www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#Dilog_DQ130 > > http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html > > DQ130 Qbus, Pertec I/O, TM11, 4 drives, Quad Height Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that link which I came across a couple of months ago. Sadly, no doc online. I guess I could try out their support team and see how friendly they are with requests for informatoin on 25-year old gear. ;) J From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 25 16:46:42 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:46:42 -0700 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <45684EAE.5255.102E8188@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4568338C.7663.FC486EB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> <45684EAE.5255.102E8188@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4568C7D2.8020407@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose you could punch some diskettes, but soft-sectored diskettes > are still pretty easy to get. ... but still test them well. I remember buying a few years ago old stock DOS games for like $15 on floppies and some where bad. > Cheers, > Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 25 17:15:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <003801c710cb$bb9be4b0$6601a8c0@barry> <4568338C.7663.FC486EB@cclist.sydex.com> <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20061125151148.Y57724@shell.lmi.net> > > The real problem is that it uses HARD-SECTOR 5.25" diskettes, which > > are just > > about impossible to find. really? Chuck Guzis wrote: > 10-sector 8" diskettes are also close to unobtainium. Maybe it's > just better to go with soft-sector diskettes. Those 5.25" diskettes, > BTW would have to be hard-sector high-density units. hard-sector certainly. but "high-density"? ISTR N* using Shugart SA400 > Given that most late-manufacture 5.25" drives are pretty accurate > when it comes to motor speed, could one simply synthesize a SECTOR* > signal, triggered by the index to simulate a hard-sectored drive on a > 1.2MB unit? index off the spindle, instead of the photo-cell. But then you have to line up the rotational position of the diskette every time you insert it. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 25 14:44:36 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:44:36 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <0J9B003AJ040K4B3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:32:35 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 25 Nov 2006 at 3:27, jim stephens wrote: > >> And my memory of 256 bytes may be off, I vaguly recall maybe on 32 bytes >> are visible and used by the processor at boot. People had to use pretty small proms >> in the early days of the hobby. > >I recall that the disk controller had a small bipolar prom and that >it was indeed 32 bytes. It was miles better than toggling the boot >code by hand... A 256-byte boot prom back then would have been an >almost obscene luxury... ;) No, it was 256bytes for SD and 512bytes for DD. FYI the e800h start address works for SD or DD as the SD rom appears twice in the address space at both e800h and e900h. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 25 14:46:55 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:46:55 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <0J9B0017B07V1ZRG@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > From: "Barry Watzman" > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:56:01 -0500 > To: > >The real problem is that it uses HARD-SECTOR 5.25" diskettes, which are just >about impossible to find. > >Yes, you can use a PC compatible 5.25" 360k drive, if it's jumpered >properly. Correct! I'm using FD55BV (half height 48tpi two side) and they work fine for either SD or DD. The official drive for SD version was SA400 (35 track) and for DD SA400L or TM100 as by then both were the standard. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 25 14:49:24 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:49:24 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <0J9B003J50C1KB53@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:29:16 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> On 25 Nov 2006 at 3:27, jim stephens wrote: >> >> > And my memory of 256 bytes may be off, I vaguly recall maybe on 32 bytes >> > are visible and used by the processor at boot. People had to use pretty small proms >> > in the early days of the hobby. >> >> I recall that the disk controller had a small bipolar prom and that >> it was indeed 32 bytes. It was miles better than toggling the boot >> code by hand... A 256-byte boot prom back then would have been an >> almost obscene luxury... ;) > >Well - then I guess NorthStar was obscene... :-) > >The single-density controller does indeed have 256 byte of ROM (in three chips!) >The double-density one has 512 bytes of ROM. the boot rom was two 256x 4 parts (bipolar) and the third was the address decode for the board (also 256x4 bipolar). > >The controller occupies 1K of memory space from E800-EBFF > E800-EFFF ROM on DD, unused or mirror ROM on SD > E900-E9FF ROM on both SD and DD > EA00-EAFF Hardware control (address is write value) > EB00-EBFF Write data (address is data) > >I might have EA00 & EB00 reversed, it's been a while since I was in the >nuts and bolts of the N* controller. Without checking the manuals thats about right. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 25 14:51:50 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:51:50 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <0J9B00KDI0G241CA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:02:05 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 25 Nov 2006 at 13:29, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Well - then I guess NorthStar was obscene... :-) > >My comment was directed toward your reference to the Tarbell >controller, not the NS. > >> The single-density controller does indeed have 256 byte of ROM (in three chips!) >> The double-density one has 512 bytes of ROM. > >A question crops up: why? What's the point--you need only enough to >load a sngle sector. Was the NS controller so badly implemented >that it required that much code to read a single sector? I would not say badly implemented, more like dirt simple. NS* took the software can replace hardware path. For example the code in the rom sets the drive select, does the step direction and timing and walks through the find the right sector, wait for sync flag and start reading process. Allison From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 17:20:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:20:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <4568767B.4000708@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061125232005.63575.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Hartman wrote: > Right! > > Besides, Mark Twain was once heard to remark: > > "It takes an uncreative man to spell a word only one > way!" My point all along ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 17:25:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <1445.192.168.0.4.1164462727.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <72503.99222.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Witchy wrote: > old-computers.com isn't the be-all and end-all of > lists you know :) Mind, > I'm surprised they don't have the PC20 and PC200 > listed. I know! No friggin Tandy 2000 or anything. Sylvain did e-mail me some time ago and said coverage of certain peecees was going to be added. His intent was to keep minimal the coverage of typical clones (understandable of course). Yes, I think that's the one. Nice looking unit if ya ask me. It went for a song in that auction too IIRC snifful ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 17:29:28 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC20 / PC200 In-Reply-To: <4568807C.6050602@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061125232928.8756.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Hartman wrote: > One of them was the Laser 512XT. I have one of them. > I'm missing the > Power Supply for it, so I don't know if it works. I > haven't been able to > find one on eBay or anywhere else. Dude, why don't you just look up what voltages it needs, and rig a p/s together. Homebrewed if necessary. > It's funny that the PC20 / PC200 was meant to > compete with the Atari ST, > since Atari also made several PC clones. > > Every company did, even Commodore at the time. Yep. I want the PC-2. Plainest most vanilla looking pc you could ever imagine. Strange that I'm intrigued for the very fact... > I think my favorite PC Clone was the first one I've > ever used, the > Columbia MPC. Though I've used several PC Clones > over the years: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Columbia didn't even offer a stock monitor for it? Did it essentially include a CGA or MDA type adapter (and was it a card?). > I liked the Mindset too. Although I don't have one > of those. Yep, the Mindset certainly does rock. Too bad neither of mine works :(. Not thus far anyway ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Nov 25 17:45:49 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:45:49 -0500 Subject: SMS LE interface In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:57:04 PST." Message-ID: <200611252345.kAPNjngk031959@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >> One of the boards (SMS le interface) looks like an interface to a >> disk controller. SMS made a dual disk system that had a 8" floppy >> and an 8" hard disk in a 3RU cabinet. The system has a controller >> in it that connected to the host via a 40 pin ribbon cable. >> I think the "le interface" is the host end of that connection... I still >> have one of the disk cabinets and controller. (somewhere) > >Documentation for the winchester/floppy subsystem would be a nice thing to >find. > >SMS made several different subsystems in the 80's with that interface which >weren't always compatible with DEC controllers. > >I have some documentation on the FW series under sms on bitsavers >3000632D_FW_OEM_Feb82.pdf That controller looks just like one one I have, which connects up to an 8" hard disk and an 8" floppy. I found docs for it on bitsavers and one other place (so the docs exist). I'll go look at my controller monday and see what numbers it has on it. I could swear someone on this list talked about that controller and the rev of the proms on it several years ago (maybe 1-2). The one I have has a boot prom; I don't know if it's rx01/02 compatible. I've powered up the winchester and it comes ready but I have not tried it with the controller (plan to this winter). -brad From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 25 17:48:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:48:28 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <20061125151148.Y57724@shell.lmi.net> References: <200611251801.kAPI197g033258@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20061125151148.Y57724@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <456865CC.7042.1088CF1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2006 at 15:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > hard-sector certainly. but "high-density"? ISTR N* using Shugart SA400 I'm assuming that you'd want to keep the 8" format. It sounds as if the NS postdates the old Tarbell controller. IIRC, the Tarbell didn't support 5.25" drives. > index off the spindle, instead of the photo-cell. But then you have to > line up the rotational position of the diskette every time you insert it. You could do that, but it might be simpler just to use the photocell and spit out sector pulses. If there was some concern about long- term speed variations, one could use a PIC to measure the rotational speed and generate the pulses accordingly. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 25 18:11:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:11:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568A8D7.7050806@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Nov 25, 6 01:34:31 pm Message-ID: > >>The real problem is that it uses HARD-SECTOR 5.25" diskettes, which are just > >>about impossible to find. > > > > > > 10-sector 8" diskettes are also close to unobtainium. Maybe it's > > just better to go with soft-sector diskettes. Those 5.25" diskettes, > > BTW would have to be hard-sector high-density units. > > > > Given that most late-manufacture 5.25" drives are pretty accurate > > when it comes to motor speed, could one simply synthesize a SECTOR* > > signal, triggered by the index to simulate a hard-sectored drive on a > > 1.2MB unit? > > > > Can't one make a punch template and punch out the holes needed? > Ok you have to kill a few disks in the process for the sleave and > floppy part. I haee thought about modifying an otherwide-usesless drive to make a manual punch for said holes. Remove all the electronics, heads, etc. and put a dividing plate and index on the end of the spindle (I have a dividing head so making this is not that hard). Then put a punch and die where the index sensor was. Line up the exisitng index hole on the disk with the punch and clamp the disk to the spindle. Then move it round using the dividing plate, punching a hole at each position.. Oh well, _when_ I dig out my Horizon and start working on it, I'll probably do something like this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 25 17:42:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:42:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <20061125022648.21007.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 24, 6 06:26:48 pm Message-ID: > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > ...a big snip... > > Ok, what do you play with most? And, dear Lord, most I can tell you first what I used least. That's the 8 bit home micros. I do admit ot using the Acorn Cambridge Workstation from time to time (often as 'just' a BBC micro), and I have a soft spot for TRS-80s because my first computer was a Model 1. But I don't really use the Apple ][s or or C64s or... As regards what I use most, that depends... Recently I've been spending a lot of time on HP stuff, current;y there's a 9817 in bits on the bench (yes, I know that wasn't on the list, nor is the 9816, the 9820, or a couple of other machines working their way onto the bench). The reason I'm doing a bit with HPs is that there's an active HP user club in the UK (HPCC), and it's fairly easy to get motivated to investigate these fine machines. Other stuff I use a lot are the PERQs, at least one PDP11, etc... Probably after doing a bit more with HPs I'll move onto something totally different, maybe a VAX or something. > of this stuff has to be in storage, no? I know there's > loads of castles in England, and it sure as heck would No, it's all packed into a normal-ish London house.... Along with a lot of books, photographic stuff, tools, and the like. > take one to house all that! There's a bloody small > fortune there besides. Is there? Anything that strikes anyone as particularly rare/valuable? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 25 17:45:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Teletype magnetic tape unit"? In-Reply-To: <1164436106.13701.54.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Nov 25, 6 01:28:26 am Message-ID: > Yeah, it's a magnetic tape recorder for a Teletype Model 43 Glass > TTY. The 43 was widescreen, at 132 characters, like green-bar paper. Are there 2 different Teletype 43s, then? The Model 43 that I know is a dot-matrix prining terminal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 25 18:07:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:07:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: classic ii In-Reply-To: <45689F9E.1060504@retrobbs.org> from "Mark Firestone" at Nov 25, 6 07:55:10 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys. > > I've got a mac classic ii analog board... but it's for 120v instead of > 240v. The circuit board looks identical ... as do most of the > components. Anyone know what would need to be changed to make it 240v? If it's conventionally designed, then it may just be one link in the mains recitifer circuit area (fitted for 120V, removed for 240V) that conveted the rectifier circuit between a voltage doubler and a bridge rectifier. I've not seen this board, but certainly some Mac+ boards are done that way. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 18:24:24 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:24:24 -0600 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <624966d60611251624n2d328ecam9ba97c800ef06057@mail.gmail.com> I think you need the -yb or -yc to support the FP chip. The J11 chip rev can also be a concern. The FP chip should be under $300, but I don't have the part number to check. Paul On 11/24/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the > floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, and > don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem to be > asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at that price?), > I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in an FPGA as was > discussed at length earlier in the week. > > Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Presumably I'd need software > written to make use of the floating-point hardware anyway... > > Gordon. > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 18:25:40 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <56541.36652.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Is there? Anything that strikes anyone as > particularly rare/valuable? > > -tony There's so much. There has to be considerable value there. You know if you did sell it, you could affored an even bigger London house LOL LOL. And you don't program. VERY surprised you don't feel the urge to tap out even a little code. The C64 of all things is a great platform to learn a little assembly. And of course pc's. I could recommend some groovy books too. When do we get to look at some pictures of your stash? You know I'm sure a local newspaper or magazine would be interested in printing a piece about your "fascination". Do you use anything modern (Pentium or later) with any regularity? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 18:28:05 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:28:05 +0000 Subject: SMS LE interface In-Reply-To: <200611252345.kAPNjngk031959@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200611252345.kAPNjngk031959@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 11/25/06, Brad Parker wrote: > The one I have has a boot prom; I don't know if it's rx01/02 compatible. I can't guarantee your model (mine is a dual floppy), but AFAIK, all of the SMS drives for DEC machines are at least RX01, if not RX02, compatible. Moreover, most, if not all, of the SMS drives should be able to take a totally blank floppy and format it (DEC RX01s can't format a thing, and the RX02 can only re-write the data portion of the track of a pre-formatted RX01 disk and make that part double-density, thus, converting an RX01-K into an RX02-K). There are other ways of starting with blank floppies (the RX01 format is large-system IBM compatible, thus standard), but few options using a DEC CPU. I've heard of the 8-hard/8-soft model, but never seen one... Please do post tales of your success/lessons learnt with it when you have time to get to it. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 18:34:24 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:34:24 -0600 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <45683A56.4040203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <45683A56.4040203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <624966d60611251634l35d3a82dg1381d17e2bbaa847@mail.gmail.com> The EIS chip for the M7264 and the M7270 was referred to as the 3B5, being the last 3 digits of the part number. Tere are still a few out there. You could also upgrade the 03 to a 23 or 23+, and use the M8188 card. I'm pulling these numbers from the top of my head, so they may be off. Paul On 11/25/06, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Roger Ivie wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > >> > >> Would it be possible to do the same sort of trick with the LSI-11? > >> I've got an 11/03 and it would be nice to have floating-point :-). > > > > There were a couple of floating point options for 11/03. I haven't > > actually seen either. > > > > The first, FIS-11, was a ROM that goes into the empty socket. > > > > The second, FPP-11, was an add-on board that connected to the 11/03 via > > the empty socket. > > I think you're confusing this with 11/23, or maybe 11/40 options. There > is a microcode ROM for the 11/03, which contains EIS/FIS (ie, both the > Extended Instruction Set and the Floating Instruction Set). It's called > KEV11, not FIS-11. There is a FIS option (and a separate EIS option) > for an 11/40. However, the FIS is not the same as other PDP-11 floating > point instructions. For a start, it's all stack-based (no register > operations) and it uses a different floating point format. Which is why > the opcodes are different too. > > There's a similarly-named option called KEF11 for an 11/23, which does > implement the normal PDP-11 floating point instructions (in microcode). > It needs the MMU present, because it uses registers in the MMU; it > doesn't implement EIS because the basic 11/23 KDF-11 chipset already has > EIS, unlike the KD-11 chipset in the 11/03. It doesn't implement FIS > either, because there's no point. There is also a quad board with a > floating point processor which plugs into an 11/23 (or 11/24) instead of > the KEF-11; this is called an FPF-11, and it doesn't need the MMU > registers because it has its own. > > I've never heard of an FPP-11. There are several FP11-x boards for > Unibus machines. > > > As I understand it, the empty socket could be used for either floating > > point or the commercial instruction set. Since there's only one empty > > socket, you can't have both floating point and the CIS. > > There's no CIS for an 11/03; there is a CIS option for KDF-11 machines, > which consists of a carrier that plugs into a *pair* of microm sockets > on an 11/23 or 11/24. The carrier holds six chips. There's also a CIS > for the 11/44 (two board set). > > > There's also a writable control store, WCS-11, that plugs into that > > slot. > > Yes, that's a KUV-11, M8018. I suppose if you could fit the floating > point instruction set into 1024 microcode words, you'd almost be able to > implement floating point -- but there would still be no registers > available to operate on. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From marvin at rain.org Sat Nov 25 18:59:42 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:59:42 -0800 Subject: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <4568E6FE.81F29D2B@rain.org> A couple of questions pop up on this Northstar diskette discussion. First, was the oersted rating the same for all of the N* Horizon (and Advantage?) diskettes? And to expand it a bit, what about other hard sectored diskettes ... Heathkit, Vector Graphic, etc. And what about the 8" floppies? My knowledge in this area is nil and I don't recall ever having read anything. Second, it seems to me that someone has already made a punch for modifying soft-sectored floppies to hard sectors. As Tony says, it shouldn't be hard to do. As such, would there be much of a demand for such punches? > On 25 Nov 2006 at 13:34, woodelf wrote: > > > Can't one make a punch template and punch out the holes needed? > > Ok you have to kill a few disks in the process for the sleave and > > floppy part. > > The envelope wouldn't matter--you can usually reuse those. > > I suppose you could punch some diskettes, but soft-sectored diskettes > are still pretty easy to get. > > Cheers, > Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Nov 25 19:44:05 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:44:05 -0600 Subject: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568E6FE.81F29D2B@rain.org> References: <4568E6FE.81F29D2B@rain.org> Message-ID: <4568F165.7030709@pacbell.net> Marvin Johnston wrote: > A couple of questions pop up on this Northstar diskette discussion. First, was > the oersted rating the same for all of the N* Horizon (and Advantage?) > diskettes? And to expand it a bit, what about other hard sectored diskettes ... > Heathkit, Vector Graphic, etc. And what about the 8" floppies? My knowledge in > this area is nil and I don't recall ever having read anything. > > Second, it seems to me that someone has already made a punch for modifying > soft-sectored floppies to hard sectors. As Tony says, it shouldn't be hard to > do. As such, would there be much of a demand for such punches? Here is a page showing a jig to make 10 sector 5.25" disks, by Heiko Heinz, for his Wang 2200 PCS-II, although it would work for any computer needing such disks: http://www.homecomputermuseum-xanten.de/Homecomputer%20neu/Computers/Wang/WANG-2200-PCS-II-Zusammenbau-Bild-30.htm Here is the link to the rest of Heiko's pages: http://www.homecomputermuseum-xanten.de/index.htm From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 25 19:55:52 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:55:52 -0800 Subject: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568E6FE.81F29D2B@rain.org> References: <4568E6FE.81F29D2B@rain.org> Message-ID: <4568F428.5060708@msm.umr.edu> Marvin Johnston wrote: >A couple of questions pop up on this Northstar diskette discussion. First, was >the oersted rating the same for all of the N* Horizon (and Advantage?) >diskettes? A > I never had but a single type of floppy media for the single and double density Northstar controllers. I was lucky to have almost all Verbatim 10 sector disks and they worked fine. Unfortunately a lot of my 10 sector disks have apple stuff on them, as at one time there was a time you could get the hard sector diskettes a log cheaper than the better soft sector ones, and they worked fine. I don't have a working apple 2 with a cpm card to try to copy over to soft sector disks. Only thing I'd really keep is the bios source anyway. As to using 10 sector 8" diskettes, why? I put both a northstar and a tarbell in the same box, which was a northstar. I could boot from either controller depending on which format I wanted to be the "A" drive, and modified the bios to have the read / write code for both diskettes. No need for any unusual work on the diskettes. 5 1/4" diskettes were all northstar cpm, and the 8" ones were standard IBM ones read and written by the tarbell controller. Jim From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Nov 25 21:04:27 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:04:27 -0500 Subject: SMS LE interface In-Reply-To: References: <200611252345.kAPNjngk031959@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4569043B.6040200@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/25/06, Brad Parker wrote: > >> The one I have has a boot prom; I don't know if it's rx01/02 compatible. > > > I can't guarantee your model (mine is a dual floppy), but AFAIK, all > of the SMS drives for DEC machines are at least RX01, if not RX02, > compatible. Moreover, most, if not all, of the SMS drives should be > able to take a totally blank floppy and format it (DEC RX01s can't > format a thing, and the RX02 can only re-write the data portion of the > track of a pre-formatted RX01 disk and make that part double-density, > thus, converting an RX01-K into an RX02-K). > > There are other ways of starting with blank floppies (the RX01 format > is large-system IBM compatible, thus standard), but few options using > a DEC CPU. I have a Unibus SMS board marked FD1100I on a hand-lettered label, and SMS PE-HIP with an Intel 8008 and a Shugart FDC chip. I don't remember which one. I'd love to know how to use it. That Shugart chip implies it has a lot more smarts than an RX02 controller. If it does Winchester too, so much the better. Pictures: http://www.docsbox.net/.other/11-03/DSC00079.jpg http://www.docsbox.net/.other/11-03/DSC00080.jpg There are a 50-pin, a 40-pin, and a 30-pin header on it. I can scan it Tuesday for a hi-res image if anyone's interested. Err. I *assume* it's Unibus. It came in a non-functional PDP-11/04. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Nov 25 21:11:55 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:11:55 -0500 Subject: SMS LE interface In-Reply-To: <4569043B.6040200@mdrconsult.com> References: <200611252345.kAPNjngk031959@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4569043B.6040200@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <456905FB.2070300@mdrconsult.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > There are a 50-pin, a 40-pin, and a 30-pin header on it. I can scan > it Tuesday for a hi-res image if anyone's interested. Typo! That should be 50-pin, 40-pin, and 34-pin, not 50, 40, 30. Doc From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 21:19:43 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:19:43 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <456907CF.7060602@yahoo.com> Not in the least... Mark Twain was making a joke about educated people mis-spelling words accidentally. He wasn't speaking about people making up words and purposely using them to annoy others in an attempt to be "cool". Al > From: Chris M > > --- Al Hartman wrote: > > >> > Right! >> > >> > Besides, Mark Twain was once heard to remark: >> > >> > "It takes an uncreative man to spell a word only one >> > way!" >> > > My point all along ;) From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 21:39:13 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:39:13 -0500 Subject: Double Punching Diskettes In-Reply-To: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45690C61.7030607@yahoo.com> For 5.25" Diskettes, a friend made me a template by taking a piece of plexiglass and punching the holes as a guide in it. I used that template to mark the disk with a silver pencil (not a lead pencil, but a coloring pencil with some wax in it) and then used a regular hole punch to make the holes. Another friend had a metal template made from some thin metal that was bent over so that a disk could be inserted into it, the holes marked with a silver pencil and then punched using a hole punch. I rarely had a DDSS diskette fail on either side. And never had a DSDD disk fail. Though I usually bought Verbatim, Maxell, Elephant or Wabash disks. Even BASF floppies were ok. Though BASF Floppy drives were AWFUL. I did (and do now) have a Wangtek Flippy Drive with the Percom label on it. This drive didn't need extra holes punched since it had two sets of sensors mounted in the drive. You just flipped the disk over and it worked. I'm amazed that I used to think paying $30 for 10 180k diskettes was a bargain... Al Phila, PA From fernande at internet1.net Sun Nov 26 00:09:29 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:09:29 -0500 Subject: Double Punching Diskettes In-Reply-To: <45690C61.7030607@yahoo.com> References: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45690C61.7030607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45692F99.3050801@internet1.net> Al Hartman wrote: > For 5.25" Diskettes, a friend made me a template.... > > I used that template ...... > > Another friend had a metal template..... I think I eyeballed a few of them, but also used another floppy as a guide. > I rarely had a DDSS diskette fail on either side. And never had a DSDD > disk fail. Though I usually bought Verbatim, Maxell, Elephant or Wabash > disks. Even BASF floppies were ok. Though BASF Floppy drives were AWFUL. I don't think I ever had a disk fail, although in junior high, and high school. I probably didn't use the volume of disks that some people did, in college, or in the office. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From river at zip.com.au Sun Nov 26 01:09:36 2006 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:09:36 +1100 Subject: Northstar Horizon References: <200611260020.kAQ0JSpf038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01c71129$d5343bd0$6501a8c0@riverxp> Hi, Thanks for the replies. I've probably seen some of the web sites mentioned as I have downloaded various manuals and documentation for the system. The processor board has the provision for 1K EPROM, which isn't installed. I'd assume it's for a 2708 device. Unfortunately I cannot program these devices, so I can program a 2716 and do some mods to the processor card to make the 2716 work and show only the 1st 1kbyte. In my spares I have a few Dynabyte and Microbyte RAM cards (both static and dynamic), an old MITS 8800B CPU card (which needs some serious TLC), a spare ZPB processor card, some weird S-100 Inc 4K EPROM card which looks like it can take 8 x 512byte, or 4 x 1k or 2 x 2k EPROMS, a Vector Graphics ZCB processor card, and a few S-100 blank prototyping cards and a 4-slot S-100 mainboard. I can wire-wrap up one of the proto boards as an EPROM card if I need more and run the DOS all in silicon, if this is possible. So, if push comes to shove I can modify and use one of my 8080/85 debug/monitors and let it run on the Northstar. I guess the hardest part is getting a set of drives that will run on the AD3 card, along with the necessary diskettes. I rechecked the disk controller card and it is clearly labelled "Micro Disk Controller MDS-AD3", which makes it the double-density diskette controller. I do have another disk controller card, by Delta Products, that has a 1791 FD controller chip on it, but I have no doco for this board. However, the first thing I need to do is clean-up the system, blow out the dust, fix the blown caps and then go through the downloaded documentation that describes how to test/verify the various boards are operational. Again, thanks for you replies and I'm going to join them into a single document for reference and also go to the various links you have supplied to see if I can get more information. regards river From wizard at voyager.net Sun Nov 26 03:05:55 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 04:05:55 -0500 Subject: "Teletype magnetic tape unit"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1164531955.13701.181.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 23:45 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yeah, it's a magnetic tape recorder for a Teletype Model 43 Glass > > TTY. The 43 was widescreen, at 132 characters, like green-bar paper. > > Are there 2 different Teletype 43s, then? The Model 43 that I know is a > dot-matrix prining terminal. Ack. My bad. It's ALSO a Model 40 TTY. So is the Printer, it's a Model 40 Printer. Sorry... I knew it was 40-something, and Model 43 jumped to mind, having used one extensively. Looking back, it sure seems dumb to use the same model number for all three... and maybe more? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jrr at flippers.com Sat Nov 25 17:54:32 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:54:32 -0800 Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: <200611252227.kAPMRH5R007802@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611252227.kAPMRH5R007802@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: At 4:27 PM -0600 11/25/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >Hi all, > >Just came across this page (well, someone >posted it to another email group) and thought >some of you might like to take a look at it. > > >http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/rampspoed.html > > >Among the usual rubber turning to liquid/sticky >stuff are dirty keyboards (under the keys), >mould on old monitors and a harddrive that >is damaged beyond repair :( > > >Regards, >Andrew B >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk And you think your data is safe? For how long... (ducking). I have similar trouble in my day job which is restoring early arcade games from the 1960's and 70s. Most of the nylon gears have failed, and also the gears are all seized in the motors due to dried up grease. Oddly enough the old logic boards seem to keep working, have a few games from the very early 70's (Computer Space and Pong that are quite serviceable. so much for the old time theory that cosmic rays led to TTL failures as these boards would all be dead if that was the case. John :-#)# From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 03:41:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:41:52 +1300 Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: References: <200611252227.kAPMRH5R007802@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11/26/06, John Robertson wrote: > I have similar trouble in my day job which is restoring early arcade > games from the 1960's and 70s.... What a fun job. I'll bet you see some nice items pass by. > Oddly enough the old logic boards seem to keep working, have a few > games from the very early 70's (Computer Space and Pong that are > quite serviceable. so much for the old time theory that cosmic rays > led to TTL failures as these boards would all be dead if that was the > case. I think the cosmic ray theory went away when there was an issue with some 4K Intel DRAMs that turned out to be alpha particles from something radioactive in the clay for the ceramic package, _not_ particles from outer space. The story lived on, though. I've looked at the schematics for Computer Space - looks like it could still be built, if you could stand the rather simplistic gameplay. I've thought about a modern implementation, but it's a "ship in a bottle" project - I'd probably build it, then put it aside fairly quickly -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Nov 26 06:19:08 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 12:19:08 -0000 (GMT) Subject: PC20 / PC200 In-Reply-To: <20061125232928.8756.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4568807C.6050602@yahoo.com> <20061125232928.8756.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3855.192.168.0.5.1164543548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, November 25, 2006 11:29 pm, Chris M said: > Yep. I want the PC-2. Plainest most vanilla looking > pc you could ever imagine. Strange that I'm intrigued > for the very fact... > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Atari/pc2.php Not the best looking machine on the planet, and they saved the design goodness for the PC3...... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Nov 26 08:44:57 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:44:57 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <0J9B003AJ040K4B3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200611261350.kAQDo3x3025303@hosting.monisys.ca> > FYI the e800h start address works for SD or DD as the SD rom appears twice > in the address space at both e800h and e900h. Not always - I have several different revs of SD controller cards, and I know that on at least one of them the E900 rom does NOT mirror at E800 - however I also have several cards that do mirror (which is nice because you don't have to change the CPU jumpers to swap SD/DD controllers). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Nov 26 08:44:57 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:44:57 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <0J9B003J50C1KB53@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200611261350.kAQDo3x5025303@hosting.monisys.ca> > >The single-density controller does indeed have 256 byte of ROM (in three chips!) > >The double-density one has 512 bytes of ROM. > > the boot rom was two 256x 4 parts (bipolar) and the third was the address > decode for the board (also 256x4 bipolar). Ah yes - I was thinking of the fact that there are three of those tough-to-find / tough-to-program 74S287 PROMS on the board, but you are correct - only two of them are for the boot code. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Nov 26 08:44:57 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:44:57 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <456865CC.7042.1088CF1C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20061125151148.Y57724@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200611261350.kAQDo3x7025303@hosting.monisys.ca> > > hard-sector certainly. but "high-density"? ISTR N* using Shugart SA400 > > I'm assuming that you'd want to keep the 8" format. It sounds as if > the NS postdates the old Tarbell controller. IIRC, the Tarbell > didn't support 5.25" drives. The N* controller came out pretty early in the S-100 game. I believe it was one of the earliest devices I'd seen those "new oh-so-tiny" minifloppy drives (SA400) in actual use. > > index off the spindle, instead of the photo-cell. But then you have to > > line up the rotational position of the diskette every time you insert it. > > You could do that, but it might be simpler just to use the photocell > and spit out sector pulses. If there was some concern about long- > term speed variations, one could use a PIC to measure the rotational > speed and generate the pulses accordingly. Many times over the years I've almost built this - but I always find a more HS disks. By using a tiny micro, you could: - Lock to the speed of the drive and adjust as it changes - Remember the last speed for each drive so you can quickly approximate the indexes on the next access. - Time the occurance of the first index pulse to avoid having having to wait an entire revolution for the drive to come up to speed in many cases. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Nov 26 08:51:37 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:51:37 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <000d01c71129$d5343bd0$6501a8c0@riverxp> Message-ID: <200611261356.kAQDuhEF026359@hosting.monisys.ca> > The processor board has the provision for 1K EPROM, which isn't installed. > I'd assume it's for a 2708 device. Unfortunately I cannot program these > devices, so I can program a 2716 and do some mods to the processor card to > make the 2716 work and show only the 1st 1kbyte. If you don't want to modify the card, you could make a little adapter. 1K is plenty to get the Horizon booted. All you need is something that will let you write the boot client into memory. I have a little 8080/Z80 monitor I could send you which fits in about 512 bytes and has the advantage that it does not require ANY ram - makes it very nice when you are trying to figure out faulty RAM. > In my spares I have a few Dynabyte and Microbyte RAM cards (both static and > dynamic), an old MITS 8800B CPU card (which needs some serious TLC), a spare > ZPB processor card, some weird S-100 Inc 4K EPROM card which looks like it > can take 8 x 512byte, or 4 x 1k or 2 x 2k EPROMS, a Vector Graphics ZCB > processor card, and a few S-100 blank prototyping cards and a 4-slot S-100 > mainboard. > > I can wire-wrap up one of the proto boards as an EPROM card if I need more > and run the DOS all in silicon, if this is possible. So, if push comes to > shove I can modify and use one of my 8080/85 debug/monitors and let it run > on the Northstar. I wouldn't - that adds complexity of another untested card. 1K is enough to get going and keeps things simple. If you put in my RAMless monitor, all you need to get working in order to talk to it is the CPU (with it's ROM socket) and the serial port. Once you are "in", it's much easier to get things working from there. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 26 09:42:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:42:26 -0800 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200611261350.kAQDo3x7025303@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <20061125151148.Y57724@shell.lmi.net>, <456865CC.7042.1088CF1C@cclist.sydex.com>, <200611261350.kAQDo3x7025303@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45694562.19802.13F22D08@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2006 at 9:44, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Many times over the years I've almost built this - but I always find a > more HS disks. By using a tiny micro, you could: > - Lock to the speed of the drive and adjust as it changes > - Remember the last speed for each drive so you can quickly > approximate the indexes on the next access. > - Time the occurance of the first index pulse to avoid having > having to wait an entire revolution for the drive to come up > to speed in many cases. The idea of a little PIC on a little paddle card for 5.25" is also appealing for a couple of other uses, namely generating the TG43* signal (I believe that someone already offers this) and generating a READY* signal for drives not capable of generating one. The SECTOR* signal would be gravy. Forgive my non-authentic musings. Cheers, Chuck From alanp at snowmoose.com Sun Nov 26 12:39:28 2006 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:39:28 -0800 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III boot floppy In-Reply-To: <200611261801.kAQI11La049044@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611261801.kAQI11La049044@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1164566368.4569df60b0bb4@webmail.snowmoose.com> A friend of mine not on the list has a TRS-80 Model III and is looking for a boot floppy for it. 5-1/4" drive. Can anyone help me out here? alan From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Nov 26 14:09:18 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:09:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III boot floppy In-Reply-To: <1164566368.4569df60b0bb4@webmail.snowmoose.com> References: <200611261801.kAQI11La049044@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200611261914.kAQJEOpR018520@hosting.monisys.ca> > > A friend of mine not on the list has a TRS-80 Model III and is looking for a > boot floppy for it. 5-1/4" drive. Can anyone help me out here? On my site in ImageDisk format. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Nov 26 13:39:32 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:39:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: MMJ cable length? Message-ID: I was thinking about putting together some standard MMJ cables, but I realized I didn't know what the standard lengths were. Can anyone tell me which were the most common/useful lengths for the original DEC cables? I've seen and use cables as short as 18" and as long as 50ft. I've used a lot of them that were somewhere in the 12-15ft range, but I'm not sure what length would be the most versatile. -Toth From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 13:45:10 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:45:10 -0600 Subject: MMJ cable length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920611261145k4f59a1f9h29face37e0caa038@mail.gmail.com> Toth, On 11/26/06, Tothwolf wrote: > I was thinking about putting together some standard MMJ cables, but I > realized I didn't know what the standard lengths were. Can anyone tell me > which were the most common/useful lengths for the original DEC cables? > I've seen and use cables as short as 18" and as long as 50ft. I've used a > lot of them that were somewhere in the 12-15ft range, but I'm not sure > what length would be the most versatile. While I can't answer with the DEC spec, how about 'as long as you need them to be for what you're doing'? I've never used an MMJ cable longer than ten feet, myself. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 13:51:28 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 11:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2 dec printers free for shipping Message-ID: <20061126195128.62933.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> LA210-A2 and LA75 companion printer. Unknown operating condition, yellow and exposed to some dampness. LN03 laser, HEAVY Emulex tape drive, ext. SCSI box - ping ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Nov 26 14:05:44 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:05:44 +0100 Subject: Flexowriter 2300 maintenance info somewhere ? Message-ID: <4569F398.6060202@bluewin.ch> Once again common sense lost out am I am now the "proud" possessor of a rather run-down Friden-Singer Flexowriter model 2300. Anyone know of online resources for these beasts ? Google / Bitsavers did not yield results. Jos Dreesen From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 26 15:16:03 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Double Punching Diskettes In-Reply-To: <45692F99.3050801@internet1.net> References: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45690C61.7030607@yahoo.com> <45692F99.3050801@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20061126130837.J94204@shell.lmi.net> > > For 5.25" Diskettes, a friend made me a template.... > > I used that template ...... > > Another friend had a metal template..... > I think I eyeballed a few of them, but also used another floppy as a guide. Gordon French? peddled a brass template. Almost as easy to use as using another floppy. Of course, those who know me know that the BEST template was the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig". It was available in both 5.25" and 8". It was a plexiglas pocket that permitted markeing both sides at the same time. The "deluxe" models of both had a peg and donut for putting on center hub reinforcers. EARLY DD 5.25" needed them. And then they stopped putting them on with the HD disks. > > I rarely had a DDSS diskette fail on either side. And never had a DSDD all the "failures" that were reported to us were traceable to other causes, such as SAND in the drive! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 26 12:07:59 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:07:59 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <0J9C000BPNPB7NTG@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:44:57 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> FYI the e800h start address works for SD or DD as the SD rom appears twice >> in the address space at both e800h and e900h. > >Not always - I have several different revs of SD controller cards, and I know that >on at least one of them the E900 rom does NOT mirror at E800 - however I also >have several cards that do mirror (which is nice because you don't have to change >the CPU jumpers to swap SD/DD controllers). I have three revs of the SD controller and all hit on both addresses. Maybe a forth rev? Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 26 16:42:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 14:42:21 -0800 Subject: Double Punching Diskettes In-Reply-To: <20061126130837.J94204@shell.lmi.net> References: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45692F99.3050801@internet1.net>, <20061126130837.J94204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4569A7CD.22587.1572A4C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2006 at 13:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > The "deluxe" models of both had a peg and donut for putting on > center hub reinforcers. EARLY DD 5.25" needed them. And then > they stopped putting them on with the HD disks. IIRC, it wasn't the diskettes so much as the clamping arrangements on the drives (Shugart had the most reliable system, but sued anyone who tried to copy it). It was quite awhile before someone figured out that turning the spindle motor on when a diskette was inserted so as to center the hub in the clamping setup was a stroke of genius. I've got some old Micropolis single-sided drives that will mangle a hub in fewer than 10 insertions. A few HD manufacturers put the hub reinforcement on their disks early on. I didn't think it did any harm, but it didn't help either and was nonstandard. I recall getting a very angry call from a customer who said that CopyQM was making unreliable 5.25" DSDD copies--that he'd make and verify a copy and then found it couldn't be read by another machine. What he didn't mention is that he was using the PolyPak equivalent of diskettes--no-name mail-order cheapest possible. I asked him to send a few of the failures our way and we'd have a look at them. It turns out that whatever bit of machinery that was used to apply reinforcing rings had applied TWO to each side, each ring being slightly offset from the other. The diskettes would never center on the hub the same between any two insertions. After I pointed this little tidbit out to him, the complaints stopped. Cheers, Chuck From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sun Nov 26 16:45:19 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:45:19 -0600 Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: <4566D7C3.30856.A7602C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Using a Tecmar Graphics Master in a DTK XT clone, I could get, IIRC, 704 KB of RAM. Bob >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:30:11 -0800 > >On 24 Nov 2006 at 14:07, Sean Conner wrote: > > > The major problem with that is MS-DOS---it can't handle non-contiguous >RAM > > and therefore there is no standard way to reserve or use memory in the >upper > > 384K of the address space (well, for those PClones that followed the IBM > > spec). > >I seem to recall a few PCs with built-in CGA display adapters gave >one more contiguous memory than 640K by filling the space between >A000 and C000 with RAM. And many "not very compatible" PCs running >MS-DOS made the entire 1MB available. > >Anyone with an old Visual Commuter want to verify this? I think that >the Commuter was one of the aforementioned. > >Cheers, >Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 26 16:39:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:39:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <56541.36652.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 25, 6 04:25:40 pm Message-ID: > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is there? Anything that strikes anyone as > > particularly rare/valuable? > > > > -tony > > There's so much. There has to be considerable value I'd be somewhat interested to know what people consider to be the 'stars' of that collection, given that I don't have any of the traditional rarities (like a striaght-8, or a Lisa, or even a ZX80). > there. You know if you did sell it, you could affored > an even bigger London house LOL LOL. Yes, but what would I put in it :-) > And you don't program. VERY surprised you don't feel > the urge to tap out even a little code. The C64 of all I did not say I didn't program. I said I wasn't a programmer. Let me explain. I can write code in a doxen languages if I have to, including several assembly languages (heck, why else would I want to have machines with toggle-switch panels ;-)). But I don't consider myself to be a programmer, in the sense that I don't write good, efficient, code, and I am not going, for example, to write an operating system or a compiler, or... Moreover, I don't really enjoy programming. I prefer to do the hardware. Restore it, troubleshoot it, make add-ons, etc. Yes, I'll write a program if that's what's needed to support whatever bit of hardware I'm working on, but that's it. > things is a great platform to learn a little assembly. There speaks somebody who's never used a Beeb. Seriously, if I wanted to do 6502 assembly language, I'd nse a BBC micro. There's an assembler built into the (excellent) BASIC. > And of course pc's. I could recommend some groovy > books too. I am not sure why anyone would consider 80x86 assembly language to be pleasant :-) > When do we get to look at some pictures of your > stash? You know I'm sure a local newspaper or magazine That could be a problem. Yes, I have a cmaera. Darn it, I have many cameras. But all are film-based (I will _consider_ a digital camera when the quality of output exceeds that from my film cameras, which include several 5*4" large format models). I also don't have a scanner, or anything to link it to (there don't make scanners that link to PERQs :-)) > would be interested in printing a piece about your That I doubt (based on previous expereicens in a totally different area), in any case I'd not really want a more precise location of this stuff to be widely known... > "fascination". Do you use anything modern (Pentium or > later) with any regularity? Not really. There's an (old-ish) Pentium laptop here which is used for one thing and one thing only. Running the diagnostic program for my father's car. But the PC I am using at the moment is the PC/AT with 486 kludgeboard on the collection list. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 26 16:45:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:45:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <000d01c71129$d5343bd0$6501a8c0@riverxp> from "river" at Nov 26, 6 06:09:36 pm Message-ID: > > The processor board has the provision for 1K EPROM, which isn't installed. > I'd assume it's for a 2708 device. Unfortunately I cannot program these > devices, so I can program a 2716 and do some mods to the processor card to > make the 2716 work and show only the 1st 1kbyte. The pinouts of the 2708 and 2716 are pretty similar, the differences relating to the extra 2 supply lines on the former as against the A10 address inout and, IIRC, an OE/ line on the latter. If I were you, I'd not modifg the proecessor board, I'd make up an adapter that plugs into the existing socket (maybe replace it with a turned-pin socket) and which carries the 2716. Since the pinouts are similar, you could use stripboard for this, jsut cut/jumper the few pins that are different. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 26 16:31:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:31:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: from "John Robertson" at Nov 25, 6 03:54:32 pm Message-ID: > > At 4:27 PM -0600 11/25/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >Just came across this page (well, someone > >posted it to another email group) and thought > >some of you might like to take a look at it. > > > > > >http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/rampspoed.html > > > > > >Among the usual rubber turning to liquid/sticky Interestingly, it shows a Vesatec V80. Exactly the same thing has happened to the platten roller in my V80 :-(, so sometime I am going to have to work out how to repair that,,, > >stuff are dirty keyboards (under the keys), Is this a real problem? I generally pull all the keycaps (and clean those with Maplin foam cleaner), then if possible take the rest of the keyboard apart and clean all the bits spearately. Yes, it's time-consuming (takes an afternoon to do a keyboard), but it doesn't involve making/obtaining special parts, etc. > >mould on old monitors and a harddrive that > >is damaged beyond repair :( > > > > > >Regards, > >Andrew B > >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > And you think your data is safe? For how long... (ducking). > > I have similar trouble in my day job which is restoring early arcade > games from the 1960's and 70s. Most of the nylon gears have failed, > and also the gears are all seized in the motors due to dried up > grease. There is one big difference between a failed nylon gear and, say, that crashed hard drive or a failed custom chip. And that is it's possible to make a new gear using tools that a serious model enginenr (and thus also computer restorer) would have. But no way are you going to make a hard disk platter or heads in a home workshop. And another point is that in general it's possible to deduce the design of mechancial bits from the remains. If you have a nylon gear that was pressed onto a spindle and has now split (a very common failure mode), you can cound the teeth, deduce the pitch from the undamaged part, and thus make a replacement. Good luck deducing the properties of a failed ASIC in the same way. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 26 17:27:46 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:27:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Various problems Message-ID: <200611262327.kAQNRkwd054245@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At 4:27 PM -0600 11/25/06, > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > > > >Just came across this page (well, someone > > >posted it to another email group) and thought > > >some of you might like to take a look at it. > > > > > > > > >http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/rampspoed.html > > > > > > > > >Among the usual rubber turning to liquid/sticky > > Interestingly, it shows a Vesatec V80. Exactly the > same thing has > happened to the platten roller in my V80 :-(, so > sometime I am going to > have to work out how to repair that,,, > oh dear :( > > >stuff are dirty keyboards (under the keys), > > Is this a real problem? I generally pull all the > keycaps (and clean those > with Maplin foam cleaner), then if possible take t he > rest of the keyboard > apart and clean all the bits spearately. Yes, it's > time-consuming (takes > an afternoon to do a keyboard), but it doesn't > involve making/obtaining > special parts, etc. How easy is it to take the plastic (?) keys off of a keyboard without damaging either the keys or the contacts underneath? I assume, if they are taken off without damage to them, they would simple clip back on? I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 17:30:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:30:21 +1300 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c71129$d5343bd0$6501a8c0@riverxp> Message-ID: On 11/27/06, Tony Duell wrote: > The pinouts of the 2708 and 2716 are pretty similar, the differences > relating to the extra 2 supply lines on the former as against the A10 > address inout and, IIRC, an OE/ line on the latter. As is generally the case for the entire line of JEDEC EPROMs, all the way up until they left the DIP format. > If I were you, I'd not modifg the proecessor board, I'd make up an > adapter that plugs into the existing socket (maybe replace it with a > turned-pin socket) and which carries the 2716. Since the pinouts are > similar, you could use stripboard for this, jsut cut/jumper the few pins > that are different. You don't even need to use stripboard... I've recently made a couple of ROM pin swabbers with just turned-pin sockets and hookup wire. You do need a bit of vertical clearance, but the trick is to make a sandwich from 3 sockets, but first to remove the pins from the middle socket where there are to be changes. This way, where the pins are the same, you have 3 stacked turned pins, and where the pins are different, you have a turned pin in the target board with nothing above it (giving you room to solder in a jumper wire), or a turned pin on the EPROM with nothing under it (also giving you room to solder in a jumper wire). I've also done a couple that were a bit fancier using some perf board. You need to enlarge the holes in the perfboard to make room for the body of a turned pin, then install naked turned pins in those enlarged holes where you need to bring the signals all the way from top to bottom (A0-An, D0-D8, GND...). This technique is especially useful when you want to install a connector to an external switch to manipulate the high-order EPROM address lines to select amongst multiple ROM images (I did it most recently to have a 1Mb FLASH EEPROM in a 2732 socket, with 5 external address lines to allow choosing one of 32 4K images at reset time). If this isn't clear, I can see about putting up a photo of the second technique. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 26 17:35:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:35:07 -0800 Subject: OT: Best way to use an HP Disk Array Cabinet In-Reply-To: <4569A7CD.22587.1572A4C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200611260019.kAQ0JSpZ038841@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20061126130837.J94204@shell.lmi.net>, <4569A7CD.22587.1572A4C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4569B42B.15311.15A2F3AB@cclist.sydex.com> I picked up an empty HP disk array rack cabinet (C2786A) and am thinking about turning it into some sort of tool storage cabinet. I think that all I have to do is install some conventional drawer slides in the rack mounts and fabricate some tool trays. The drive "doors" can be used to keep the dust out of the innards. Has anyone done this? Any tips? Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 26 18:01:55 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:01:55 -0800 Subject: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4568F165.7030709@pacbell.net> Message-ID: >From: Jim Battle ---snip--- > >http://www.homecomputermuseum-xanten.de/Homecomputer%20neu/Computers/Wang/WANG-2200-PCS-II-Zusammenbau-Bild-30.htm > >Here is the link to the rest of Heiko's pages: > >http://www.homecomputermuseum-xanten.de/index.htm > > Hi There is a problem with Heiko's and that is that you have to remove the disk from the envelope. I created a jig that I use to punch holes that I made from an old SA400 disk frame. It has the advantage that one can punch the holes while still in the envelope. I put some small aluminum blocks where the optical sensor and LED used to be. I have detents on the flywheel that correspond to the locations where the holes should be. I use the shank of a #93 ( I think that is the right size ) bit as the punch. This I sharpened such that it has two flukes, similar to what a paper punch has. To punch disk, I rotate the floppy to expose the index. I slide the drill shank through one of the holes in the punch block and the disk index hole. I rotate the flywheel to the detent that corresponds to the index and close the disk door. This clamps the disk on the spindle, and aligns the index. I then rotate the flywheel and punch each hole as indicated by the detents on the flywheel. It is slow but on can create about one a minute this way. I've checked the alignement of my detents by observing on an oscilloscope. I've used these disk on both my H89 and my Poly 8813. They work fine. I have a N* but haven't had time to play with it. I do have a machine that uses 32 hard sectored 8 inch disk. I've not had the need to create more disk for it yet. I suspect I could make a similar punch from an old disk drive frame. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ View Athlete?s Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 26 18:19:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:19:38 -0800 Subject: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: References: <4568F165.7030709@pacbell.net>, Message-ID: <4569BE9A.26566.15CBB724@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2006 at 16:01, dwight elvey wrote: > I put some small aluminum blocks where the optical sensor and > LED used to be. I have detents on the flywheel that correspond > to the locations where the holes should be. I use the shank of > a #93 ( I think that is the right size ) bit as the punch. This > I sharpened such that it has two flukes, similar to what a paper > punch has. Assuming one had a sharp enough bit, why wouldn't it be possible to simply punch all the holes straight through the jacket without having to do anything more than align the index hole in the cookie with the index hole in the jacket? It might not look pretty, but what would prevent it from working? Would there be still too much of a burr left on the jacket that would interfere with the works? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 19:22:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:22:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: <200611262327.kAQNRkwd054245@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <546800.58205.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > How easy is it to take the plastic (?) keys > off of a keyboard without damaging either > the keys or the contacts underneath? > I assume, if they are taken off without > damage to them, they would simple clip back on? > > I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and > will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't > bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. Most of the time you can just pull them off. They're held on as an interference fit, meaning simply pressure. I guess there are exceptions though, so don't keep pulling if it ain't coming off... My experiment proved successful, though I hardly got any acclaim for it :(. Several of the keys on my NEC APC III's were unresponsive. So I took a plastic tub, filled it with hot water, tossed in about a cup of laundry detergent, roughly a litre of ammonia, tossed in the keyboard, and left it there for several hours. Pulled it out at one point, rattled all the keys, put it back in for several more hours, then rattled once more and rinsed. Left it by the air conditioner for several hours and it worked fine afterwards. I saw no evidence of corrosion due to the ammonia, so next time I'll leave it in longer. I didn't pull any of the keytops off, not sure if they just pop off (probably). My TIPPC came with several of the key tops broken off, and was led to believe this happened in transit (yeah likely). Luckily I have 2 keyboards that although resemble a desktop TI PC's to a large extent, they have a different connector (like a header connector - anyone have a clue what they're for? Probably a terminal I would imagine). So I aim to unsolder the offending "pots" and solder new ones in, repleat with the correct key top. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 19:50:11 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:50:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <377291.20822.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> > I'd be somewhat interested to know what people > consider to be the 'stars' > of that collection, given that I don't have any of > the traditional > rarities (like a striaght-8, or a Lisa, or even a > ZX80). What matters is what you find groovy. Don't matter much what the rest of the herd thinks. Yes I do have a couple of the kewell items, like a Lisa (busted?) and a gorgeous Canon Cat. The Lisa I'm truly enamored with, but I'd probably sell the Cat if I could get a good enough price. He he. I will look the list over again. In most cases I didn't have a clue what any of it was! LOL > > there. You know if you did sell it, you could > affored > > an even bigger London house LOL LOL. > > Yes, but what would I put in it :-) umm machinery? Got a T & LM lathe yet (not very big granted). Or a Drummond round bed? I want both, but you see there's this location problem... You should really try to secure some of that stuff while the getting is good. Could be most are in collections already... > There speaks somebody who's never used a Beeb. > Seriously, if I wanted to > do 6502 assembly language, I'd nse a BBC micro. > There's an assembler > built into the (excellent) BASIC. You can still download BBC basic for pc's I believe, and there's even a version that produces Win32 executables IIRC. The thing I like about the Commie is the built in hardware sprites. VERY easy to program. It's just an all around fun platform. There are others of course. > I am not sure why anyone would consider 80x86 > assembly language to be > pleasant :-) Quite gratifying to get something running on one. Besides I know little else :(, and not a whole lot of that LOL LOL > > When do we get to look at some pictures of your > > stash? You know I'm sure a local newspaper or > magazine > > That could be a problem... If you're ever moved, send me the prints and I'll host them. If you ever feel moved... > Not really. There's an (old-ish) Pentium laptop here > which is used for > one thing and one thing only. Running the diagnostic > program for my > father's car. Ok, what kind of car is it? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 19:53:14 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:53:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <546800.58205.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061127015314.10746.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> and what do you all use to eliminate the chunky green gunk that seems to assumulate primarily on card edge contacts? I was thinking of Brasso and a rag. I think it's about time I got this Lisa operational. Had it for a year and a half... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 20:08:20 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:08:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC20 / PC200 In-Reply-To: <3855.192.168.0.5.1164543548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <514120.23383.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Witchy wrote: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Atari/pc2.php > > Not the best looking machine on the planet, and they > saved the design > goodness for the PC3...... Eh, I don't know. Taking another look at the PC2 I see it's not as plain as I thought (hopelessly utilitarian though). One can ponder the reasons for their designing it to look so mainstream. So that business users would adopt it? Not likely from the company called Atari. Apparently these were available to some extent in Canada, the location of one I failed to bid on one dark day... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 20:15:35 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:15:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Multibus boxes Message-ID: <744465.38064.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> are these that hard to come by: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=320050107697&rd=1&rd=1 pretty cheap. I'm in the get rid of stuff mode though, couldn't see bidding on it (unfortunately). I'd be interested if anyone has one though, or something similar (preferably Intel, but I'd consider others). I was supposed to get my hands on a Compupro box, but the guy is dragging his heals... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 20:37:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:37:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <266774.75245.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Feldman wrote: > Using a Tecmar Graphics Master in a DTK XT clone, I > could get, IIRC, 704 KB > of RAM. > > Bob I'm very much enamored with the pre-EGA 400 line boards - Tecmar, STB, Sigma, Taxan. Even the Hercules InColor card I considered desireable. If anyone should have any stashed away. And of course, o of course, IBM PGA clones. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Nov 26 21:02:49 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:02:49 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <20061125232005.63575.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061125232005.63575.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456A5559.30104@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Al Hartman wrote: > > >>Right! >> >>Besides, Mark Twain was once heard to remark: >> >>"It takes an uncreative man to spell a word only one >>way!" > > > My point all along ;) No, that's WAY out of context. I've been keeping quiet, but I'm going to ring in on this. I don't expect it to change your opinion or your behavior. I don't expect you to care one fine red hair about my opinion, but I hope you're at least casually curious as to why your "kewell" crap bothers so many of us. I'm going to explain *my* objection, and go back into my hole. One aspect of my profession is technical writing, course development, and documentation. Words, spelling, context, and grammar are my business. I'm not a spelling or grammar Nazi; even consistent mistakes in a person's posts don't bother me. Key word being "mistake", as opposed to "misuse". Trying to read your posts offends me. It offends me the same way a truck driver would be offended hearing someone grind the gearbox and hammer the rear-end of a nice tractor rig. It offends me the way a trim carpenter would be offended watching you turn screws with a fine wood chisel. The English language and especially the printed word are a primary tool to me, a *valuable* tool, and it is unpleasant to watch it being systematically and intentionally abused and misused. I'm sure that in some contexts and in some company, "LOL LOL LOL" and "stuph" are perfectly acceptable. This is, by the apparent majority consensus, not that company. Doc From sethm at loomcom.com Sun Nov 26 21:04:03 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:04:03 -0800 Subject: MMJ cable length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061127030403.GA8050@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 01:39:32PM -0600, Tothwolf wrote: > I was thinking about putting together some standard MMJ cables, but I > realized I didn't know what the standard lengths were. Can anyone tell me > which were the most common/useful lengths for the original DEC cables? > I've seen and use cables as short as 18" and as long as 50ft. I've used a > lot of them that were somewhere in the 12-15ft range, but I'm not sure > what length would be the most versatile. > > -Toth The BC16E DECconnect MMJ Crossover came in several standard sizes identified by the two-diget length following the part number. The most common lengths seem to have been BC16E-02 (two-foot patch cable), BC16E-05 (5'), BC16E-10 (10'), and BC16E-25 (25'). I keep meaning to buy some more, so please let me know if you're interested in sharing! -Seth From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 26 22:29:51 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:29:51 -0800 Subject: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <4569BE9A.26566.15CBB724@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck I think it would work but many of the diskettes I have also have a lining of a cloth like stuff. I have a hard time cutting just a single layer with scissors. One can get a piece of drill rod stock quite sharp. I use the shank of a drill, only because it was easy to get. The shanks are not as hard as the drill part. I do have one problem, even when just cutting the floppy disk against the die, I still get a few hanging on by a little. Cutting through the envelope might not provide enough support at the edges to get a clean cut. It is worth trying anyway. One might also try a high speed drill instead of a punch or even a cutting LASER! Ok, I'm getting a little carried away. Having all the holes cut at once would improve the through put. Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Hard Sector Diskettes, was Re: Northstar Horizon >Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:19:38 -0800 > >On 26 Nov 2006 at 16:01, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I put some small aluminum blocks where the optical sensor and > > LED used to be. I have detents on the flywheel that correspond > > to the locations where the holes should be. I use the shank of > > a #93 ( I think that is the right size ) bit as the punch. This > > I sharpened such that it has two flukes, similar to what a paper > > punch has. > >Assuming one had a sharp enough bit, why wouldn't it be possible to >simply punch all the holes straight through the jacket without having >to do anything more than align the index hole in the cookie with the >index hole in the jacket? It might not look pretty, but what would >prevent it from working? Would there be still too much of a burr >left on the jacket that would interfere with the works? > >Cheers, >Chuck > > _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 26 22:43:54 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:43:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: <546800.58205.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <546800.58205.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061126204101.O12980@shell.lmi.net> > I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and > will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't > bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. Start with a PC keyboard, and just yank the keytops off. EXCEPT THE SPACE BAR!! Leave it alone until you know what you are doing. From sieler at allegro.com Sun Nov 26 18:41:57 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:41:57 -0800 Subject: Pascal in production environments (was Re: lisadraw) In-Reply-To: <1163056205.2911.107.camel@linux.site> References: <200611082304.kA8N4Nua019938@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4569C3D5.22603.1606AAC7@localhost> Re: > I worked at a company which produced a distributed processing > database system. The program set was just over a million lines of > Pascal. It was a specialized Pascal, however, which started out life as > HP Pascal. With a better library, it was a truly useful language. It True...HP's Pascal had a few great enhancements that raised Pascal from being a barely adequate teaching language to being an extremely valuable programming language. > was ALWAYS, as I see it, more suited for applications programs than > system work, however. The HP 3000 operating system, MPE/iX, is written in HP Pascal (predominantly). > > no flames or long discussions about C, please. Good point. I've discovered that the people passionately defending any one particular language over all others are usually not well versed in the others. Every language has its place, even if that place is the scrap heap of history :) For me, my choice of language for new code depends mostly upon operating system: MPE: 2/3 HP Pascal, 1/3 SPLash! (an SPL variant) HP-UX: 2/3 C, 1/3 HP Pascal Windows/Mac/other Unix: C (none of that new-fangled C++ :) Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 27 02:15:20 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:15:20 +0000 Subject: PC20 / PC200 In-Reply-To: <514120.23383.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 27/11/06 02:08, "Chris M" wrote: > Eh, I don't know. Taking another look at the PC2 I > see it's not as plain as I thought (hopelessly > utilitarian though). One can ponder the reasons for > their designing it to look so mainstream. So that > business users would adopt it? Not likely from the > company called Atari. The internals are nicely done though; it may be an x86 compatible but it's All Their Own Work ? (mostly). In fact all the Atari PCs were done nicely, well, all the ones I've got anyway :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Nov 27 03:19:57 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 04:19:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <456A5559.30104@mdrconsult.com> References: <20061125232005.63575.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <456A5559.30104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200611270925.EAA29622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] The English language and especially the printed word are a > primary tool to me, a *valuable* tool, and it is unpleasant to watch > it being systematically and intentionally abused and misused. Thank you very much, Doc. You've almost exactly nailed my own objection, the major difference being that natural language (especially English) is much less of a professional tool for me than it is for you. But I still have much the reaction you sketched at seeing it so deliberately mangled. > I'm sure that in some contexts and in some company, "LOL LOL LOL" and > "stuph" are perfectly acceptable. Indeed, they doubtless would not have shown up here, were that not so! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 27 04:00:57 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 02:00:57 -0800 Subject: a request / Multibus boxes References: <744465.38064.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456AB74B.27F146C9@cs.ubc.ca> Chris M wrote: > pretty cheap. I'm in the get rid of stuff mode though, ^^ :) From tim.walls at snowgoons.com Mon Nov 27 05:23:03 2006 From: tim.walls at snowgoons.com (Tim Walls) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:23:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries Message-ID: Hi all, been years since I contributed to the list (I'm your archetypal lurker,) but that's normally 'cos I have nothing useful to contribute, so yay for a chance :-) Tony Duell wrote: >> When do we get to look at some pictures of your >> stash? You know I'm sure a local newspaper or magazine > > That could be a problem. Yes, I have a cmaera. Darn it, I have many > cameras. But all are film-based (I will _consider_ a digital camera when > the quality of output exceeds that from my film cameras, which include > several 5*4" large format models). I also don't have a scanner, or > anything to link it to (there don't make scanners that link to PERQs :-)) For what it's worth Tony, if any of your cameras are 35mm, I have a dedicated film/slide scanner I'd be more than happy to run some negs (or positives!) through if you did want to get some digital images to share with the list. I'm based in Leeds but travel to London pretty much every week for what it's worth. (If you didn't want to entrust negs with me - and I wouldn't blame you - I'd be happy to give you a roll or two of TMax B&W film & you can post me the exposed rolls back - I can process & scan them myself at home.) (Oh, the offer of scanning negs/slides is of course open to anyone if you need it, within reason!) As an aside, maybe a love of old cameras and classic computers is a natural fit :-). Although I do shoot digital, my favourite camera is my Canon A1, an absolutely beautiful bit of kit IMHO, and I'm hoping a 1950s Russian Zorki rangefinder is going to land in my lap before Christmas! Shameless self publicity - if anyone's curious, some of my photography is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowgoons/ ;-). (No classic computers there though!) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Nov 27 05:42:24 2006 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:42:24 +0000 Subject: Amstrad's PCs In-Reply-To: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <660896.26181.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061127114222.GB4137@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:55:09PM -0800, Chris M wrote: > not the one with the "pop-up" lcd, but didn't Amstrad > make a Atari ST-looking model (essentially a whole > computer in the keyboard) with presumably an 8088? You might be thinking of the CPC+, which was Z80-based can came in two versions, the 464+ with 64K and a cassette, and the 6128+ with 128K and a 3" floppy. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic The Law of Daves: in any gathering of technical people, the number of Daves will be greater than the number of women. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 27 09:30:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:30:59 -0800 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <200611270925.EAA29622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20061125232005.63575.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, <456A5559.30104@mdrconsult.com>, <200611270925.EAA29622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <456A9433.5314.190E0F63@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2006 at 4:19, der Mouse wrote: > Thank you very much, Doc. You've almost exactly nailed my own > objection, the major difference being that natural language (especially > English) is much less of a professional tool for me than it is for you. > But I still have much the reaction you sketched at seeing it so > deliberately mangled. I take consolation in the persistence of punctuation as well as majescules and miniscules in messages on this list. While having the nature of a cockroach in the spaghetti, I do my best to come to terms with "stuph". When I poster repeatedly uses "LOL LOL LOL", I assume that he (or she) is manic and must be dealt with accordingly. Compassion toward the less fortunate is not a weakness. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 04:29:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 04:29:03 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456ABDEF.3030209@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> take one to house all that! There's a bloody small >> fortune there besides. > > Is there? Anything that strikes anyone as particularly rare/valuable? Oh come on :-) You know that some of that stuff's pretty rare. On the Acorn front, they built maybe 50 ARM eval kits and a similar number of ACWs for instance, and known survivors of any of the System range is probably less than 20. It's rather hard to find an Atom with the Econet board too (although stock Atoms are reasonably common). There can't be many DEC GT40s about, or DAPs. PERQ 2T4's aren't exactly common, nor is anything from Whitechapel or the better Torch systems. Ditto with Vectrexes, HH Tigers, Einsteins, and the Sinclair MK14. Heck, even Orics / Jupiter ACEs / RML380Zs / Sorcerors aren't *that* common these days, although they're probably around if you have money to spare. I could go on.... Valuable? Well anything rare is valuable (as I realise that you well know) :-) But if you mean in monetary terms, I really couldn't say. There are probably a few things there that'd go for a few hundred pounds each on ebay - but personally I never think of ebay as a good measure of an item's worth. ps. No Domesday system by the way? I could have sworn that you owned one! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 04:37:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 04:37:21 -0600 Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061126204101.O12980@shell.lmi.net> References: <546800.58205.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <20061126204101.O12980@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <456ABFE1.7040003@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and >> will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't >> bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. > > Start with a PC keyboard, and just yank the keytops off. > EXCEPT THE SPACE BAR!! Leave it alone until you know what you are doing. ... or if it's a Spectrum+, turn it upside-down and the keyboard will dismantle itself for you :-) But seriously, *most* keyboards do allow the keytops to be taken off, but some don't. Generally I'll go in from the underside of an unfamiliar keyboard first to check out it there are any gotchas (which is probably a good general tip - dismantle the obvious stuff first as it often reveals details about how to attack the more complex bits) I do have bad memories of a PC keyboard once (I'm almost certain it was a genuine IBM XT one) where I took the back off and many many little springs and metal plates went flying all over the room. These days I'm a bit more cautious :-) cheers Jules -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 04:42:46 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 04:42:46 -0600 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <200611270925.EAA29622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20061125232005.63575.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <456A5559.30104@mdrconsult.com> <200611270925.EAA29622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <456AC126.7050103@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> [...] The English language and especially the printed word are a >> primary tool to me, a *valuable* tool, and it is unpleasant to watch >> it being systematically and intentionally abused and misused. > > Thank you very much, Doc. You've almost exactly nailed my own > objection, the major difference being that natural language (especially > English) is much less of a professional tool for me than it is for you. > But I still have much the reaction you sketched at seeing it so > deliberately mangled. Personally, I think that this list (probably *any* list) is all about conveying information - and lots of deliberate mis-spellings and redundant words in any post detracts from that. At the same time, we're all individuals and so have our own writing styles, so trying to impose any kind of policy helps nobody - but I suspect that any posts which are seriously out of line with the norm are in danger of just being ignored by the majority on the list. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 27 09:53:53 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:53:53 -0500 Subject: PC Memory maps (was: Re: 486 w/newer IDE drives) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2006, at 5:45 PM, Robert Feldman wrote: > Using a Tecmar Graphics Master in a DTK XT clone, I could get, > IIRC, 704 KB of RAM. I did this with a CP/M card in an XT clone. I had a device driver that loaded from config.sys which bumped it up to 704KB. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 27 09:56:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:56:13 -0500 Subject: Multibus boxes In-Reply-To: <744465.38064.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <744465.38064.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42568A36-D44D-45E4-9FE9-A0D255F87399@neurotica.com> On Nov 26, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Chris M wrote: > are these that hard to come by: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=320050107697&rd > =1&rd=1 > > pretty cheap. I'm in the get rid of stuff mode though, > couldn't see bidding on it (unfortunately). > > I'd be interested if anyone has one though, or > something similar (preferably Intel, but I'd consider > others). > I was supposed to get my hands on a Compupro box, but > the guy is dragging his heals... Dang, if I'd thought that auction would end so low, I'd probably have tried to grab it. I have several boards for one of those machines. As a very early non-PC 8086 machine, I think it'd be fun to hack on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 10:17:04 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:17:04 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920611270817o48d8d5a4ufa68ec43a80a755@mail.gmail.com> On 11/27/06, Tim Walls wrote: > As an aside, maybe a love of old cameras and classic computers is a > natural fit :-). Although I do shoot digital, my favourite camera is my > Canon A1, an absolutely beautiful bit of kit IMHO, and I'm hoping a > 1950s Russian Zorki rangefinder is going to land in my lap before > Christmas! Shameless self publicity - if anyone's curious, some of my > photography is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowgoons/ ;-). (No > classic computers there though!) You wouldn't be the only one, Tim! My favorite camera to use is a 1971 Canon FTb body, and ironically my digital body is only two years from being on-topic here: The Canon EOS-1N D2000 (1998). I also want a Zorki or Zenit, but I don't think Santa's that kind to me this year. ;-) Beautiful pictures, by the way. (I'm too shy to post mine ;-) Josef PS: I suppose to make this on-topic I should say that my oldest camera is seven years older than my oldest computer, an Apple II Plus. -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 27 10:39:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:39:43 -0800 Subject: Suggestions on through-hole prototyping board Message-ID: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> Lately, all I've seen in 0.100" prototyping board is really inferior phenolic material in small sizes from China with nearly unusable pad patterns. Adhesion of the foil to the board substrate itself is chancy at best. I used to be able to get fairly good-sized (6"x10") pieces of FR4 protoboard with useful patterns (e.g. laid out for 0.300" DIP, with power traces down the middle and pads extending for 2 holes from each DIP pin) with all holes being plated-through. Short of taking old PC ISA or S-100 prototyping boards and cutting them up, does anyone know of some good sources for proto boards? Thanks, Chuck From kth at srv.net Mon Nov 27 11:08:13 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:08:13 -0700 Subject: MMJ cable length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456B1B7D.3090209@srv.net> Tothwolf wrote: > I was thinking about putting together some standard MMJ cables, but I > realized I didn't know what the standard lengths were. Can anyone tell > me which were the most common/useful lengths for the original DEC > cables? I've seen and use cables as short as 18" and as long as 50ft. > I've used a lot of them that were somewhere in the 12-15ft range, but > I'm not sure what length would be the most versatile. The 5-6' cables were probably the most common, but you could go up to about 300' if you ran it at a slow enough speed. Avoid outside runs as much as possible (lightning damage can be very impressive). It really depends on the enviornment you are in on how long your average cable will be. If you are setting up a terminal room, you will probably use short cables. If you are setting up in an office enviornment, you will probably want to wire the walls, and place MMJ jacks on the wall. Then you will need to have cables long enough to reach from the wall to the desk (5' to 20'), depending on weither they are willing to have their desk against the wall with the jacks. I wired up a lot of long runs from a computer room to individual offices, and you cannot get the cable through an existing wall with the ends attached. They almost always get trashed on the way through the wall, or get hung up on the way through. Later on, I used regular CAT-5 connectors on the wallplates, and wired cables up as CAT5-MMJ to the terminals. This allowed for later transition to a network, as wll as using easier to find CAT5 wallplates. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 27 11:57:56 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:57:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: MMJ cable length? In-Reply-To: <456B1B7D.3090209@srv.net> References: <456B1B7D.3090209@srv.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2006, Kevin Handy wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > >> I was thinking about putting together some standard MMJ cables, but I >> realized I didn't know what the standard lengths were. Can anyone tell >> me which were the most common/useful lengths for the original DEC >> cables? I've seen and use cables as short as 18" and as long as 50ft. >> I've used a lot of them that were somewhere in the 12-15ft range, but >> I'm not sure what length would be the most versatile. > > The 5-6' cables were probably the most common, but you could go up to > about 300' if you ran it at a slow enough speed. Avoid outside runs as > much as possible (lightning damage can be very impressive). Ok. I'm just not sure what length are the most useful. I know the 12-15ft cables always worked ok for me to connect systems/terminals/terminal servers, but I'm just not sure if shorter cables would still work as well length wise. Lightning can do some pretty strange things. One of the more interesting lightning damaged installations I found was where someone had run a thicknet drop cable across a building roof. I have no idea what the person responsible for that cable run was thinking. > It really depends on the enviornment you are in on how long your average > cable will be. If you are setting up a terminal room, you will probably > use short cables. If you are setting up in an office enviornment, you > will probably want to wire the walls, and place MMJ jacks on the wall. > Then you will need to have cables long enough to reach from the wall to > the desk (5' to 20'), depending on weither they are willing to have > their desk against the wall with the jacks. > > I wired up a lot of long runs from a computer room to individual > offices, and you cannot get the cable through an existing wall with the > ends attached. They almost always get trashed on the way through the > wall, or get hung up on the way through. I mainly just need to figure out what length will be the most useful for equipment to equipment connections. None of these will be going in the walls. Flat cord isn't rated for in-wall use anyway and in a commercial building, the building inspectors would throw a fit. I've also had a couple of people ask me off-list about making a few extra MMJ cables since my initial email, so figuring out the most useful/common length would help with those too. I think I only have 100ft or so of extra cable on hand right now. In any case, 6C flat cord is fairly cheap, but the plugs aren't (at least the AMP brand ones anyway). Anyone happen to know a source for inexpensive AMP brand MMJ plugs? :) > Later on, I used regular CAT-5 connectors on the wallplates, and wired > cables up as CAT5-MMJ to the terminals. This allowed for later > transition to a network, as wll as using easier to find CAT5 wallplates. I've done the Cat5 to MMJ cables lots of times myself. I've also used 6P6C RJ11 to MMJ cables. I actually just made some more of those to use with RJ11 to DE9F adapters, as I've yet to find genuine H8571-J adapters in quantity at anything resembling a reasonable price. -Toth From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 12:17:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:17:59 -0500 Subject: MMJ cable length? In-Reply-To: References: <456B1B7D.3090209@srv.net> Message-ID: <456B2BD7.8080302@gmail.com> Tothwolf wrote: > In any case, 6C flat cord is fairly cheap, but the plugs aren't (at > least the AMP brand ones anyway). Anyone happen to know a source for > inexpensive AMP brand MMJ plugs? :) I don't think that they're AMP-branded per se, but cables.com has MMJ connectors for $0.19 qty 1. I usually buy about a hundred at a time. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 27 12:24:41 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:24:41 -0800 Subject: Suggestions on through-hole prototyping board Message-ID: Halted has a bunch of FR4 proto boards from a company called "Syntax" They were clearing the shelves the last time I looked, though, and had the stuff marked down. I don't remember their being a manuf adr on the packaging though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 27 12:49:46 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:49:46 -0500 Subject: Suggestions on through-hole prototyping board In-Reply-To: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Lately, all I've seen in 0.100" prototyping board is really inferior > phenolic material in small sizes from China with nearly unusable pad > patterns. Adhesion of the foil to the board substrate itself is > chancy at best. > > I used to be able to get fairly good-sized (6"x10") pieces of FR4 > protoboard with useful patterns (e.g. laid out for 0.300" DIP, with > power traces down the middle and pads extending for 2 holes from each > DIP pin) with all holes being plated-through. > > Short of taking old PC ISA or S-100 prototyping boards and cutting > them up, does anyone know of some good sources for proto boards? It really is a sad state of affairs. I know the Chinese boards you're talking about...I don't know what those guys were smoking when they came up with some of those pad layouts. I've been reduced to just using the Radio Shack pad-per-hole prototyping boards. Their pad adhesion isn't that great, but that has made me more careful. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From kth at srv.net Mon Nov 27 12:50:42 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:50:42 -0700 Subject: MMJ cable length? In-Reply-To: References: <456B1B7D.3090209@srv.net> Message-ID: <456B3382.3000604@srv.net> Tothwolf wrote: > Ok. I'm just not sure what length are the most useful. I know the > 12-15ft cables always worked ok for me to connect > systems/terminals/terminal servers, but I'm just not sure if shorter > cables would still work as well length wise. Depends on where the equipment is located in relation to each other. Longer cables will work in place of the shorter ones, but you end up with a lot of extra cable to hide, which will collect dust and generally get in the way. > Lightning can do some pretty strange things. One of the more > interesting lightning damaged installations I found was where someone > had run a thicknet drop cable across a building roof. I have no idea > what the person responsible for that cable run was thinking. I've had a lot of equipment destroyed by lightning over the years. The damage goes from invisible (internal problems in IC's), to the extremely visible (hole burnt completely through circuit board and IC's missing, except for some legs). Usually not worth fixing, because many other components are likely to fail soon after any repair. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 27 13:09:17 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:09:17 -0800 Subject: Prototyping boards Message-ID: Twin Industries is also still around http://twinind.com/catalog.php?id=7#sc13 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Nov 27 16:40:38 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:40:38 -0000 Subject: FPGAs, unobtanium and FPJ11s In-Reply-To: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <474C83B2.8030000@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > The thought occurred to me that it might be nice to have the > floating-point option in my PDP-11/73. Since I haven't got one, and > don't fancy paying the $500 or so that some online sellers seem to be > asking (do they really expect to sell *any*, never mind at that > price?), I was wondering how easy it would be to implement in an FPGA > as was discussed at length earlier in the week. > > Feasible, or a complete waste of time? Presumably I'd need software > written to make use of the floating-point hardware anyway... Jerome Fine replies: You have not stated your criteria as to why you want the faster speed. (a) If your ONLY reason is faster execution, then use Eratz-11 and get up to 100 times the speed of a real DEC PDP-11/73 on a Pentium 4 CPU. Since I am able to achieve about 20 times the speed of a real DEC PDP-11/73 with a Pentium III, I suggest that 100 times the speed with a Pentium 4 is a reasonable estimate. (b) If you want faster execution, but it must be on a real DEC PDP-11/73, then you have 2 conflicting reasons. And since you can already execute the FPU instructions, but slower without the extra hardware option, it seems reasonable to assume that if you want the real DEC PDP-11/73 CPU, you do not really care that much about the overall speed of the CPU. Can you please clarify? I also have a PDP-11/83 (which always included the floating-point option). In addition, PMI memory improves the overall speed by about another 20%. I am much more focused on the software, so I really don't prefer any particular hardware and I now rarely use the DEC hardware except to test for any actual DEC hardware conflicts. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Nov 27 16:40:44 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:40:44 -0000 Subject: Help With an Erastz-11 DLL Message-ID: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Can anyone help me with a simple link to an assembler / linker for a Pentium III / Pentium 4? I am attempting to use the EMEM.DLL (Emulated PDP-11 Memory) under Ersatz-11, but I am basically a dummy when it comes to using X86 code, especially finding a pair of suitable assembler / linker programs. I downloaded the Watfor programs, wasm.exe and wlink.exe, but I am not able to assemble the original file, EMEM.ASM at this point. In case anyone is interested, the EMEM.DLL under E11 provides access to PC RAM via emulated PDP-11 hardware registers. The current version which I have been using allows up to 8 MBytes, but I want to increase that to about 600 MBytes so that I can write a faster sieve program for Prime Numbers which looks like it runs in a PDP-11. If I can get the test version to run fast enough on a Pentium III, I will try it on a Pentium 4 with 4 GBytes of memory and see if it is possible to sieve the primes up to 10**18 (essentially a 64 bit sieve program) in a reasonable time (i.e. less than 1 year!). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Nov 27 16:40:46 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:40:46 -0000 Subject: RL01 directory listings In-Reply-To: <017b01c70ea9$be87c820$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <017b01c70ea9$be87c820$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <474C833C.4070302@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > [Snip] > > Another question - if under RT11 5.04, a disk pack shows "invalid > directory"... doesn't that rule out RSX and RSTS packs? In other > words, aren't those directories at least visible to RT11? I'm > wondering what I can assume if a pack shows invalid directory under > RT11 and isn't bootable with regards to the likelyhood I can consider > it a scratch pack. I'd rather not init a pack that may contain > something. Is there a better way to look? Jerome Fine replies: Without spending a few hours checking every place that "invalid directory" is displayed from DIR.SAV, it is impossible to understand exactly what triggers the message. Also, I assume that you refer to using a hard disk drive or other device that can be file structured. However, I can say that the message is not caused when DIR.SAV is unable to complete a read operation, but when data is found that is different from what is expected. In addition: (a) I zeroed out all of block one on a file structured device - this did not cause a problem of any sort - which contains non-essential RT-11 information (b) I then zeroed out the number of segments (first word in block 6 - this did cause the "invalid directory" message - since a non RT-11 file structure likely can have invalid data as far a what is required for RT-11, it can be assumed that the RT-11 "invalid directory" message is probable with other valid file structures (c) The above result will obviously occur when a new scratch device with all zeros in at least the first 8 blocks since the first word in block 6 is zero. For example, under E11 it is possible to: MOUNT DU0: RAM:/SIZE:65536 (65536 is the number of blocks) If the user does not first INIT DU0:, then the DIR command will return the "invalid directory" message In short, if the "invalid directory" message appears, you can NOT assume that the device is a scratch pack. ALSO, Jay I have not yet figured out a suitable reply to your private question. If it takes me more than a week or two, please remind me again in case it has dropped off my radar list. I have some personal family items to finish first and they have priority. One other thing: I am attempting to assemble some x86 code for an Ersatz-11 DLL file. Since I am a dummy when it comes to even simple x86 stuff, I don't know where to find a suitable x86 assembler, let alone which one I should use. The Borland TASM.EXE file was suggested from Turbo C, but my old AT is not working. Can anyone help me find or provide a link to TASM and TLINK? I want to write code under RT-11 which will trigger code on a Pentium system that uses the x86 instruction BTR (Bit Test and Reset) so that I can clear a specified bit in a string of bits that is up to 4 GigiBits in length - so I can use that bit string as my work area. Since there are a very large number of bits to clear for the smaller primes (often more than 10,000,000) in a work area of that size, it makes a very efficient implementation if the DLL can clear all of them with a single request before returning control to the RT-11 program, probably as efficient as writing the code in any other manner. Also, just in case anyone knows, might it also be possible with the 64 bit CPUs to operate on a bit string larger than 4 GigiBits with the BTR instruction? My limited understanding of the manuals suggests that only a 32 bit address can be used - although it would obviously be possible with additional code to split the bit string into 2 portions. This question is mostly for the future since with most Pentium 4 systems, the maximum memory is only 4 GigiBytes and probably half of that will be required for other values in any case. Can anyone help? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 10:38:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:38:36 -0600 Subject: cloning CDs with errors? Message-ID: <456B148C.2090906@yahoo.co.uk> Random thought of the day.... I've seen a few CDs around where the manufacturer has deliberately included errors on the disc to make piracy more difficult - which is a noble enough thing to do, but a bit of a pain in the butt when you want to make a legitimate backup copy of a disc :-( Has anyone come across tools (Linux preferred, but I could stomach Windows if I had to!) which can duplicate such discs and produce errors in the output at the same block as the input? (I assume any software on such deliberately-crippled media would check for the presence of known errors at install / run time) cheers Jules From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Nov 27 14:27:11 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: New bounty on manuals ($$$) Message-ID: I'm offering a bounty on the following manuals: Convex Architecture Reference Manual Fujitsu VP200 (any) If you have any of these manuals please contact me directly with specifics. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 16:55:44 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:55:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: a request / Multibus boxes In-Reply-To: <456AB74B.27F146C9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <645683.63701.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > pretty cheap. I'm in the get rid of stuff mode > though, > ^^ > :) > I do slip up now and again... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 14:11:58 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:11:58 -0500 Subject: Suggestions on through-hole prototyping board In-Reply-To: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/27/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Lately, all I've seen in 0.100" prototyping board is really inferior > phenolic material in small sizes from China with nearly unusable pad > patterns. Adhesion of the foil to the board substrate itself is > chancy at best. > > I used to be able to get fairly good-sized (6"x10") pieces of FR4 > protoboard with useful patterns (e.g. laid out for 0.300" DIP, with > power traces down the middle and pads extending for 2 holes from each > DIP pin) with all holes being plated-through. > > Short of taking old PC ISA or S-100 prototyping boards and cutting > them up, does anyone know of some good sources for proto boards? http://www.web-tronics.com/breadboards---prototyping-boards.html You need to "pagedown" on that page. I have bought their schmartBOARD for Xilinix CPLD and it is of high quality. Best, vax, 9000 * * > Thanks, > Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 13:53:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <377291.20822.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 26, 6 05:50:11 pm Message-ID: > > > I'd be somewhat interested to know what people > > consider to be the 'stars' > > of that collection, given that I don't have any of > > the traditional > > rarities (like a striaght-8, or a Lisa, or even a > > ZX80). > > What matters is what you find groovy. Don't matter > much what the rest of the herd thinks. Yes I do have a Oh, I agree 100%. I am certainly not trying to criticise people who do have Lisas or whatever (actually, I'd love a Lisa and a striaght-8, but I am unlikely to ever find them at a price I can afford. But actually, I have little interest in a ZX80...). I find HP9000/200 machines (things like the HP9816, 9817, etc) to be farily interesting 68000 boxes, if only becasue they were designed in part as instrument controllers (something I tend to use computers for). And so far they don't have much collector interest which means I can actually afford them... > couple of the kewell items, like a Lisa (busted?) and > a gorgeous Canon Cat. The Lisa I'm truly enamored > with, but I'd probably sell the Cat if I could get a > good enough price. He he. A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am not going to find one at a price I can afford... (That's a Canon Cat, of course. I like the other sort of cat too, the type that wakes you up by purring, but they tend to just turn up for free :-)) > I will look the list over again. In most cases I > didn't have a clue what any of it was! LOL Feel free to ask... > > > > there. You know if you did sell it, you could > > affored > > > an even bigger London house LOL LOL. > > > > Yes, but what would I put in it :-) > > umm machinery? Got a T & LM lathe yet (not very big > granted). Or a Drummond round bed? I want both, but > you see there's this location problem... Not yet. All I have is a Myford Super 7, short bed, changewheel model. With most of the accessories (3 and 4 jaw chucks, verticle slide, dividing head, etc). And yes I do use it for making parts for classic computers. > You should really try to secure some of that stuff > while the getting is good. Could be most are in > collections already... That's how I got a lot of my stuff. When I collected the PDP11s, they were essentially worthless. I was _given_ the 11/45 with all the printsets, etc. There wasn't really an interest in collecting computers then. > executables IIRC. The thing I like about the Commie is > the built in hardware sprites. VERY easy to program. > It's just an all around fun platform. There are others > of course. Amd the thing I like a about the BBC micro is the very well-designed MOS (Machine Operating System), the standard interfaces (things like a user port and an ADC), and so on. I guess it really comes down to what you were exposed to first ;-) > > Not really. There's an (old-ish) Pentium laptop here > > which is used for > > one thing and one thing only. Running the diagnostic > > program for my > > father's car. > > Ok, what kind of car is it? Alas he's sold the Citroen BX. He now has a Skoda Fabia (this being essentially a VW golf, at least for the important bits). It's a 1.4l, automatic, 16V. Alas it's not the old-style 16 valve Skoda (you know, 8 in the negine, 1 on each tyre, 4 in the radio), this dern thing has twin overhead camshafts, etc. And there are far too many microcontrollers in it. I forget the complete list, but there's certainly engine mangagement; gearbox, ABS brakes, airbags, air conditioning, instrument cluster, immobiliser, electrical control, power steering. All linked up by a pair of CAN buses. You knwo, I thought the idea of using a CAN bus on a car was to simplifly the wiring look. But this car has the microcontrollers cluseted either side of the bulkhead (firewall to you across the Pond), with a mass of wires going off to sensors, lights, swtiches, etc. Hmmm It also bothers me that the workshop manuals for cars that I like -- Citroen DS for example -- are one book about 4cm thick. This car's manual is 11 volumes, totally 1m thick... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 14:08:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:08:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: from "Tim Walls" at Nov 27, 6 11:23:03 am Message-ID: > > That could be a problem. Yes, I have a cmaera. Darn it, I have many > > cameras. But all are film-based (I will _consider_ a digital camera when > > the quality of output exceeds that from my film cameras, which include > > several 5*4" large format models). I also don't have a scanner, or > > anything to link it to (there don't make scanners that link to PERQs > :-)) > > For what it's worth Tony, if any of your cameras are 35mm, I have a Yes, I have some 35mm camers. Darn it I have many 35mm cameras, from the cheap-n-nasty (Kodak 35) to the fairly-cheap-and-not-nasty (Prakticas, including an oriignal VLC, Werras), to the expesnsive-and-nice (Leica III, Leica M2, Contax II, Nikon F) to the downright odd (Robot Star, Olympus Pen FT, Pentina [1]). Some of them are in need of restoration, yes, I repair cameras too... [1] I like that camera so much I named my cat after it. Seriously. > dedicated film/slide scanner I'd be more than happy to run some negs (or > positives!) through if you did want to get some digital images to share > with the list. I'm based in Leeds but travel to London pretty much every > week for what it's worth. Thanks for the offer. TO be honest, a copule of HPCC memebers have made similar offers in the past (certainly scanning prints). I just need to get round to taking some stuff... > > (If you didn't want to entrust negs with me - and I wouldn't blame you - > I'd be happy to give you a roll or two of TMax B&W film & you can post me > the exposed rolls back - I can process & scan them myself at home.) As you well know, the cost of the film is minimal compared to the cost of the time taking the pictures... > > (Oh, the offer of scanning negs/slides is of course open to anyone if you > need it, within reason!) > > > As an aside, maybe a love of old cameras and classic computers is a > natural fit :-). Although I do shoot digital, my favourite camera is my I think so (although others here disagree). To me it's different aspects of liking well-made machinery. > Canon A1, an absolutely beautiful bit of kit IMHO, and I'm hoping a Rather too much electronics for my taste... > 1950s Russian Zorki rangefinder is going to land in my lap before Which one? If you need any hints on repairing it, e-mail me. I've worked on a number of FEDs and Zorkis, I also have 'All you need to know about the design and repair of Russian cameras'.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 14:01:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:01:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456ABDEF.3030209@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 27, 6 04:29:03 am Message-ID: > Oh come on :-) You know that some of that stuff's pretty rare. On the Acorn Indeed I do :-) > front, they built maybe 50 ARM eval kits and a similar number of ACWs for I am supriesed it was as few as that... > instance, and known survivors of any of the System range is probably less than > 20. It's rather hard to find an Atom with the Econet board too (although stock > Atoms are reasonably common). Thinking about it, I may have 2 Atoms with Econet. One with the official Econet board (fitted on the solder side of the main PCB), the other with a 'System' Exonst eurocard connected to the expansion bus. > Heck, even Orics / Jupiter ACEs / RML380Zs / Sorcerors aren't *that* common I am told the Oric disk drives are hard to find.... > these days, although they're probably around if you have money to spare. > > I could go on.... > > Valuable? Well anything rare is valuable (as I realise that you well know) :-) I am not convinced. A Tiger turned up on E-bay recently, and did not sell for that much money. > But if you mean in monetary terms, I really couldn't say. There are probably a > few things there that'd go for a few hundred pounds each on ebay - but > personally I never think of ebay as a good measure of an item's worth. > > > ps. No Domesday system by the way? I could have sworn that you owned one! No, it's something I've not found yet... -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Nov 27 17:02:53 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:02:53 -0600 Subject: Help With an Erastz-11 DLL In-Reply-To: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061127170204.0d747090@localhost> At 03:52 PM 11/27/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone help me with a simple link to an assembler / linker for a >Pentium III / Pentium 4? > >I am attempting to use the EMEM.DLL (Emulated PDP-11 Memory) >under Ersatz-11, but I am basically a dummy when it comes to using >X86 code, especially finding a pair of suitable assembler / linker programs. >I downloaded the Watfor programs, wasm.exe and wlink.exe, but I am >not able to assemble the original file, EMEM.ASM at this point. > >In case anyone is interested, the EMEM.DLL under E11 provides access >to PC RAM via emulated PDP-11 hardware registers. The current version >which I have been using allows up to 8 MBytes, but I want to increase that >to about 600 MBytes so that I can write a faster sieve program for Prime >Numbers which looks like it runs in a PDP-11. If I can get the test version >to run fast enough on a Pentium III, I will try it on a Pentium 4 with 4 >GBytes >of memory and see if it is possible to sieve the primes up to 10**18 >(essentially >a 64 bit sieve program) in a reasonable time (i.e. less than 1 year!). http://www.grc.com/smgassembly.htm Contains some asm resources as well as a list 8 or 9 other links at the bottom of the page. [Alcohol] Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. --Ernest Hemmingway --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 27 17:45:19 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:45:19 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27/11/06 20:01, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> Heck, even Orics / Jupiter ACEs / RML380Zs / Sorcerors aren't *that* common > > I am told the Oric disk drives are hard to find.... S/hard/impossible Of course, the drives were only sold in france so they still fetch a premium over there. It's still possible to get Stratos machines but only if you've got deep pockets. > I am not convinced. A Tiger turned up on E-bay recently, and did not sell > for that much money. WHAT! Nobody told me about that.....bah! *sulks* I'd love a Tiger, if only to complete my Tangerine collection. The writeup it got in Personal Computer News sold it as a fantastic machine with its 3 CPUs...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 17:49:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:49:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <688423.41975.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I find HP9000/200 machines (things like the HP9816, > 9817, etc) to be > farily interesting 68000 boxes, if only becasue they > were designed in > part as instrument controllers (something I tend to > use computers for). > And so far they don't have much collector interest > which means I can > actually afford them... I was cleaning out the shed, and found this HP box I brought home for no particular good reason. It says - HP 9000 PC305, or very nearly. Is this along the line of what you're talking about? Most of the guts are gone unfortunately, but there is what appears to be a CGA card (onboard 6845 or equivalent, 9pin and 1 or 2 RCA jacks on the back). Another card, can't remember. Pretty much resembles their early Vectras. Ah that's why I brought it home sniff. And if anyone should have parts to complete it, ping me. Apparently it's of the passive backplane desing, and the cpu module, amongst other things, would exist on a card. > A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am not > going to find one at a > price I can afford... Mine...$20 US. Plus shipping. Hope is not lost... Does anyone happen to know if the Canadian gov't made ample use of these? There's some stickers on mine to suggest it had functioned in such a capacity. And the dude who sent it to me was in Washington state. Really nice guy too. It made me a little uncomfortable to take it off of him at such a low price (that's all he wanted!). He told me not to let him know if I ever got substantially more for it! > (That's a Canon Cat, of course. I like the other > sort of cat too, the > type that wakes you up by purring, but they tend to > just turn up for free > :-)) Yes, I have lots of those also. Not as many as computers though. A respectable collection nonetheless. And yes I didn't have to look hard at all to pad that particular collection. > > umm machinery? Got a T & LM lathe yet (not very > big > > granted). Or a Drummond round bed? I want both, > but > > you see there's this location problem... > > Not yet. Seek and ye shall find...ask and it shall be given...or sold maybe LOL LOL. You'll never know what is waiting out there until you start a hunting. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 17:51:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:51:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Graham wrote: > Of course, the drives were only sold in france so > they still fetch a premium > over there. It's still possible to get Stratos > machines but only if you've > got deep pockets. So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland European machines go for? Heck which are they? All I want is a little ol' Nimbus :(. Oh and an Atari PC2. And and... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 13:57:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:57:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061126204101.O12980@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 26, 6 08:43:54 pm Message-ID: > > > I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and > > will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't > > bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. > > Start with a PC keyboard, and just yank the keytops off. > EXCEPT THE SPACE BAR!! Leave it alone until you know what you are doing. IIRC, for the IBM 'clocky' keyboards, IBM would supply any keytop as a spare (or maybe a set of keytops was a single part number) _apart from the space bar_ which was not considered field-replacable. Having taken an oroignal PC keyboard totally apert (and reassembled it!), I can see why. Most of the keycaps just pull off and clip back on, but to do the space bar you ahve to remove all teh otehr keytops first, then remove the back plate/PCB, take out all the 'flaps' and then you can work on the spacebar linkage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 13:41:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:41:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: <200611262327.kAQNRkwd054245@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Nov 26, 6 05:27:46 pm Message-ID: > > Interestingly, it shows a Vesatec V80. Exactly the > > same thing has > > happened to the platten roller in my V80 :-(, so > > sometime I am going to > > have to work out how to repair that,,, > > > > oh dear :( Yes, but to be honest, I enjoy restoring these old machines, working out ways to make parts, and so on. If I wanted a printer, I'd buy a modern laserprinterm but restoring the V80 is a heck of lot more interesting. > > > > > >stuff are dirty keyboards (under the keys), > > > > Is this a real problem? I generally pull all the > > keycaps (and clean those > > with Maplin foam cleaner), then if possible take t > he > > rest of the keyboard > > apart and clean all the bits spearately. Yes, it's > > time-consuming (takes > > an afternoon to do a keyboard), but it doesn't > > involve making/obtaining > > special parts, etc. > > > How easy is it to take the plastic (?) keys > off of a keyboard without damaging either > the keys or the contacts underneath? This depends on the keyboard. With a lot of models, the keycaps just pull off, although the space bar and other 'large' keycaps may have linkages under tham that make them 'interesting' to reassemble. With some other mdoels, the keycaps have little hooks that lock iton holes in the keyframe -- on the LK201 you just twist the keycap slightly and it comes off, with the HP9100 you have to remove the keyboard PCB amd free each hook from inside the keyboard housing. In the end, I think, it comes down to expeirnece. Maybe you'll recognise the design of keyboard and know how it comes apart, if not, at least you'll know how much force you can safely apply. > I assume, if they are taken off without > damage to them, they would simple clip back on? > > I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and > will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't > bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. I regard it as a bit of light releif when I'm restoring a machine. A lot less brainwork than tracing a logic fault :-) -tony From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Nov 27 18:11:04 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:11:04 -0500 Subject: cloning CDs with errors? In-Reply-To: <456B148C.2090906@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456B148C.2090906@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1164672664.9613.7.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 10:38 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Random thought of the day.... > > I've seen a few CDs around where the manufacturer has deliberately included > errors on the disc to make piracy more difficult - which is a noble enough > thing to do, but a bit of a pain in the butt when you want to make a > legitimate backup copy of a disc :-( > > Has anyone come across tools (Linux preferred, but I could stomach Windows if > I had to!) which can duplicate such discs and produce errors in the output at > the same block as the input? (I assume any software on such > deliberately-crippled media would check for the presence of known errors at > install / run time) Its all pretty flakey, depends ALOT on the burner, the types of errors, and the phase of the moon. The utilities are also pretty much Windows only. If the errors are from a common commercial copy protection (SecurRom/SafeDisc), you'll have better luck. See http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_protections.shtml for more than you probably wanted to know. Look into products like CloneCD, or Alcohol 120. (Bigger list of utilities here: http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_utils.shtml ) David > > cheers > > Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 27 18:12:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:12:45 -0500 Subject: Various problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4294F535-A10B-46B5-9EE1-E988DDCB57DA@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2006, at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have never taken a keyboard apart yet, and >> will no doubt need to someday. I probably won't >> bother until a keyboard, or keys, starts failing. > > I regard it as a bit of light releif when I'm restoring a machine. > A lot > less brainwork than tracing a logic fault :-) I feel exactly the same way with chassis/enclosure cleaning. Out comes the Windex, alcohol, cotton swabs, Goo Gone...generally very brainless work, and the results are something you can sit back and admire. Now, figuring out why the left motor driver of one of my TU56's transports is acting anemic...that's a different matter entirely! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 18:14:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:14:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 27, 6 11:45:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 27/11/06 20:01, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > >> Heck, even Orics / Jupiter ACEs / RML380Zs / Sorcerors aren't *that* common > > > > I am told the Oric disk drives are hard to find.... > > S/hard/impossible > > Of course, the drives were only sold in france so they still fetch a premium I haev an idea mine a prototype English ones.... > over there. It's still possible to get Stratos machines but only if you've > got deep pockets. > > > I am not convinced. A Tiger turned up on E-bay recently, and did not sell > > for that much money. > > WHAT! Nobody told me about that.....bah! *sulks* Oh well.... > > I'd love a Tiger, if only to complete my Tangerine collection. The writeup > it got in Personal Computer News sold it as a fantastic machine with its 3 > CPUs...... It's certainly an interesting design. I'd love to find the disk controller (or at least a scheamtic of it) for mine -- all the ROM I have does is ask for a boot disk (presumanly CP/M). 3 CPUs is a bit of an overstatement. There is a Z80 in there for user programs. And a 6809 for I/O (!), the former with 64K RAM, the latter with 8K IIRC. The last 'CPU' is an NEC 7220 graphics chip with 96K video RAM. 3 bitplanes, there's no text mode IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 18:24:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:24:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 27, 6 03:51:50 pm Message-ID: > So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > European machines go for? Heck which are they? All I Well, Some of the more interesting UK machines are : Jupiter Ace. OK, the build quality and hardware design are horrible (thin plastic case, rubber keyboard, bus multiplexers consisting of 3-state outputs against normal TTL with 1k resistors in series (!)). But it's one of the few (maybe only) home computers to have Forth rather than BASIC in ROM RML380Z. A CP/M box built in loads of PCBs interconnected by a ribbon cable that carries the system bus and power. How they got it to work I don't klnow. Common in schools before the BBC micro. Acoon BBC micro. You must know about this one... But what about : Acorn Cambridge Workstation. Take a BBC B+ mainboard (64K RAM). Put it in a monitor-style case with a Microvitec Cub colour monitor chassis, a floppy drive and a hard drive. Now add a 32016 second processor board with 4M RAM. It can run either an a 32016 box (runs PANOS) with the Beeb for I/O or as a normal-ish BBC micro (thrre's a swtich on the keyboard to enable/disable the 32016). Torch XXX. Torch started out making add-ons for the BBC micro, and it shows in that one of the expansion buses on this machine is a cut-down BBC 1MHz bus (hrre used for the internal modem card IRC). The other 2 buses being SCSI and VME. The XXX is a 68000 machine running unix with a graphical frontend. Somewhat strange, it claims to be user-friendly (it was around at the time of the first Macs), but if you're not careful you end up at a shell prompt. The power switch is a touch swtich on the front of the machine, when you touch it to power down the unit, it syncs the file system then turns off the mains. ICL PERQ AGW3300. This is a true ICL design, not a 3RCC one. It's a 68020 unix box with a graphics processor built from a pair of 29116s -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 27 18:25:15 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:25:15 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >n 27/11/06 23:51, "Chris M" wrote: > > So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > European machines go for? Heck which are they? All I > want is a little ol' Nimbus :(. Oh and an Atari PC2. > And and... I'm sure you can fill in the etchings of the nimbus I've got with your name on! Atari PC2 type stuff is a bit more unobtanium as far as I can see on this side of the pond - I've only ever seen one and it's the machine I've got, ditto PC1 and PC3......... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 27 18:30:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:30:06 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:11:16 -0600. <4564AEE4.1040709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4564AEE4.1040709 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > For some documents there are very few surviving copies, and it would seem > sensible to preserve those ones now in a form that was as close as reasonably > possible to the original - colour scans where colour exists in the document > (or the paper is non-white or the text non-black I suppose), greyscale for > text rather than bi-level, sufficient resolution for photos and diagrams etc. I scan this way -- I use color or grayscale where necessary and use bi-level on text only B&W pages. bi-level also works for diagrams that consist only of line art without fine detail. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 27 18:31:04 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:31:04 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28/11/06 00:14, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> Of course, the drives were only sold in france so they still fetch a premium > > I haev an idea mine a prototype English ones.... You're speaking strange tongues there, mate :) >> WHAT! Nobody told me about that.....bah! *sulks* > > Oh well.... *sulkage +100%* > 3 CPUs is a bit of an overstatement. There is a Z80 in there for user > programs. And a 6809 for I/O (!), the former with 64K RAM, the latter > with 8K IIRC. The last 'CPU' is an NEC 7220 graphics chip with 96K video > RAM. 3 bitplanes, there's no text mode IIRC. Nope. It's still a good example of 80's ingeniousness though, and I still want one :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 27 18:32:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:32:10 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:39:52 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I'd be somewhat interested to know what people consider to be the 'stars' > of that collection, given that I don't have any of the traditional > rarities (like a striaght-8, or a Lisa, or even a ZX80). *Anything* Evans & Sutherland is damn rare and you have some pre-workstation era equipment which is exceedingly rare. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 18:32:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:32:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <688423.41975.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 27, 6 03:49:08 pm Message-ID: > I was cleaning out the shed, and found this HP box I > brought home for no particular good reason. It says - > HP 9000 PC305, or very nearly. Is this along the line > of what you're talking about? Most of the guts are Not really. That sounds like a somewhat interesting PC clone -- I assume the expansion bus is ISA The machines I like have an expansion bus which HP termed 'DIO'. It's a 100 pin double-sided connector, same connectors (but not pinout or signals) as the S100 bus. One odd feature is that the edge connectors are spaced at half the pitch of the height of the connecotr brackets on the boards (that's the bracket that holds external device connectors). So you can put a board with an external connecotr in every other slot, the remaining slots being for things like RAM, DMA controller, etc. I have several machins in that line. The 9816 is built into the case of a 9" mono monitor and has 2 expansion slots. In the bottom of the machine is a PCB with a 68000, 256K RAM, serial and HPIB ports, etc. The 9836 is a larger desktop machine with a separate monitor that fits on to. It has 8 slots and 2 built-in 5.25" floppy drives. And the 9817 (which is all over my bench at the moment) is an HP shoebox sized thing with a 68010 on the mainboard and 6 slots,. 2 of those are taken up by the text and graphics video PCBs. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 27 18:33:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:33:42 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 04:29:03 -0600. <456ABDEF.3030209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456ABDEF.3030209 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Ditto with Vectrexes, HH Tigers, Einsteins, and the Sinclair MK14. Vextrexes seem to come up on ebay with a fair amount of regularity for < $50. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 27 18:35:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:35:09 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:08:34 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > dedicated film/slide scanner I'd be more than happy to run some negs (or > > positives!) through if you did want to get some digital images to share > > with the list. I'm based in Leeds but travel to London pretty much every > > week for what it's worth. > > Thanks for the offer. TO be honest, a copule of HPCC memebers have made > similar offers in the past (certainly scanning prints). I just need to > get round to taking some stuff... Maybe have an "open house" for Brit collectors to come by and have a gander and they'll take some digital pics for free? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 18:55:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061128005551.62228.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > I was cleaning out the shed, and found this HP > box I > > brought home for no particular good reason. It > says - > > HP 9000 PC305, or very nearly. Is this along the > line > > of what you're talking about? Most of the guts are > > Not really. That sounds like a somewhat interesting > PC clone -- I assume > the expansion bus is ISA I wouldn't be too sure. I mean it sure does sound like a peecee, but there first real peecee was the 286 based Vectra. You're well aware of the 150's. I think I am somewhat familiar with the 9xxx's you're referring to. In fact I think I used them at an old job. IIRC the very one had a 68000 (or could have been a 68010, can't really remember). According to your description, it may very well have been a 9836. Anyone have a clue as to what I have? I'm sure some of you have to have those hard bound HP catalogs laying around. I used to have several myself. I suppose if it is an ISA bus, I could plug a cpu card from a Zenith Z-148 or the like and go to town. The AT & T 6300 was similar, but different yet, and was 8086 based besides. The monitor I also acquired with that HP box is a 12" green composite with a tube that cants up or down. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 19:03:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:03:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <313573.63638.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Graham wrote: > I'm sure you can fill in the etchings of the nimbus > I've got with your name > on! Yippee!! Hurray!!! Now I have to just get up the $150 to get it here. Or send you a rubber boat and pray for a stiff wind! > Atari PC2 type stuff is a bit more unobtanium as > far as I can see on > this side of the pond - I've only ever seen one and > it's the machine I've > got, ditto PC1 and PC3......... The PC1 was available over here as I recall. I was under the impression the PC2 would have been more prevalent on that side. Maybe I got it wrong. Somebody in Germany had one. But then that was just 1 lol. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 15:53:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:53:21 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 27/11/06 20:01, "Tony Duell" wrote: >>[HH Tiger] > > 3 CPUs is a bit of an overstatement. There is a Z80 in there for user > programs. And a 6809 for I/O (!), the former with 64K RAM, the latter > with 8K IIRC. The last 'CPU' is an NEC 7220 graphics chip with 96K video > RAM. 3 bitplanes, there's no text mode IIRC. Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with three different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I know... (Torch came close, I suppose, but as they didn't make the BBC side of their systems themselves I'm not sure that they count!) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 27 21:06:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:06:38 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456B373E.27518.1049353@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2006 at 15:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with three > different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I know... I suppose it depends on how you count "CPUs". Any system with a hard drive has at least two and probably threeCPUs; make that SCSI and the tally goes up to four. Add a tape drive or laser printer... Heck, even my ancient Durango has two CPUs in the base confiugration-- both 8085s. (one to run the printer). Given that the C64 used a 6502 CPU in the disk drive, I wonder what collection of peripherals would give 3 CPUs there. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 16:13:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:13:36 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456B6310.6000906@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> front, they built maybe 50 ARM eval kits and a similar number of ACWs for > > I am supriesed it was as few as that... I'm only going by what I'm told by ex-employees - but it is quite possible that there's a smattering of company folklore at work there; I've never seen hard production figures (I don't think that such things exist). I must admit that if the run was only 50, then there are a relative lot of survivors (I've come across around ten over the years - which probably means there are a fair few more than that. Even a 1 in 5 survival rate would be pretty impressive, though) > Thinking about it, I may have 2 Atoms with Econet. One with the official > Econet board (fitted on the solder side of the main PCB), the other > with a 'System' Exonst eurocard connected to the expansion bus. Ooh - you don't see many Atoms using the expansion bus for System cards (with the exception of the Disc Pack). There were actually two variants of the System Econet boards with different circuitry and board layout (although IIRC they share the same part number!) - unfortunately I don't have photos immediately to hand so I can check what the differences were... (it may just be that one has collision detection circuitry and the other doesn't, or one has a clock generator and the other doesn't) >> Valuable? Well anything rare is valuable (as I realise that you well know) :-) > > I am not convinced. A Tiger turned up on E-bay recently, and did not sell > for that much money. That's interesting - I wonder how people missed it? Or maybe it's just so uncommon that not many people even know what it is. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 27 16:21:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:21:15 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456B64DB.90704@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland >> European machines go for? Heck which are they? All I > > Well, Some of the more interesting UK machines are : And the Whitechapel, I'd say - OK, so it's just a Unix workstation, but there weren't many people around at the time prepared to commit themselves to the 32000 line of CPUs. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 27 21:54:02 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:54:02 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with > three different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I > know... But what with different CPU's could you run? Looking back in hind sight the only OS out there was CP/M for the 8080. All the rest just seemed to have BASIC in ROM and some way of saveing programs. > (Torch came close, I suppose, but as they didn't make the BBC side of > their systems themselves I'm not sure that they count!) I know somebody had planned a 6100 for use as CPU board but I forgot who. That reminds me now that I got a PDP-8 clone I am going have to learn how to use it. So what is the best way to learn OS/8? I still can't get over how many features this has considering the size of the PDP-8 for memory. > cheers > Jules. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 27 22:10:49 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:10:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456B373E.27518.1049353@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov 27, 6 07:06:38 pm" Message-ID: <200611280410.kAS4Anpf015998@floodgap.com> > Given that the C64 used a 6502 CPU in the disk drive, I wonder what > collection of peripherals would give 3 CPUs there. You could just use a 128D: 6502 (disk drive), 8502 (main CPU 1), Z80 (main CPU 2). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Success can eliminate as many options as failure. -- Tom Robbins ----------- From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 27 22:30:21 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:30:21 -0500 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200611280430.kAS4USY4050061@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:54:02 -0700, woodelf wrote: >Jules Richardson wrote: >> Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with >> three different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I >> know... The intel MDS 800 development system ran a DOS called ISIS that was not CP/M long before MSDOS ! I was codeing in PL/M using ISIS for a target system running the RMX OS long before MSDOS was even a dream. see. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMX The intel MDS 800 development system ran a DOS called ISIS that was the OS that shipped from Intel with the first multibus 8080 system. Century Computer ported the MDBS operatering system from the IBM System 1 to 8086 opt code in 1978/79 It was used in several applications. till later Bob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 22:49:01 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:49:01 +1300 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456B373E.27518.1049353@cclist.sydex.com> References: <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> <456B373E.27518.1049353@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/28/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Nov 2006 at 15:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with three > > different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I know... Three CPUs makes me think of the OSI Challenger III - 6502, 6800, and Z-80. > Given that the C64 used a 6502 CPU in the disk drive, I wonder what > collection of peripherals would give 3 CPUs there. That distinction could earlier go to a PET w/dual floppy - 1 6502 in the PET, 2 6504s in a 2040/3040/4040 diskette drive. The Commodore 1541 (standard drive with the C-64) only has one 6502. You'd need to add a printer or a second disk drive (or a CP/M cart) to get the whole system up to 3 CPUs. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 23:08:13 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:08:13 -0600 Subject: Allen Bradley and Z80 parts Message-ID: <624966d60611272108pba94c1epe7ca3fa45211a22f@mail.gmail.com> While cleaning I came across a bunch of AB parts some of which have socketed Z80 cpu's, ctc, sio's, ram and rom. If you have any interest please contact me off list. Paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 27 23:23:10 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:23:10 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611280430.kAS4USY4050061@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >From: "Bob" > > >Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with > >> three different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I > >> know... > >The intel MDS 800 development system ran a DOS called ISIS that was not >CP/M long before MSDOS ! > Hi The series II had a 8041 to interface to the keyboard, a 8085 for _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 27 23:27:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:27:59 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:06:38 -0800. <456B373E.27518.1049353@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <456B373E.27518.1049353 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 27 Nov 2006 at 15:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with three > > different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I know... > > I suppose it depends on how you count "CPUs". Any system with a hard > drive has at least two and probably threeCPUs; make that SCSI and > the tally goes up to four. Add a tape drive or laser printer... CBM 8032 with the CBM 8050 disk drive gets you 3 6502s :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 27 23:31:00 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:31:00 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "dwight elvey" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: rogues galleries >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:23:10 -0800 > > > > >>From: "Bob" >> >> >Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >> Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with >> >> three different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I >> >> know... >> >>The intel MDS 800 development system ran a DOS called ISIS that was not >>CP/M long before MSDOS ! >> > >Hi >The series II had a 8041 to interface to the keyboard, a 8085 for > >_________________________________________________________________ Oops! I shouldn't let my 2 year old help write messages. 8085 for the IOC processor, 3000 series bitslice for disk controller and 8080 or 8085 or 8086 for the main processor. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 27 23:44:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:44:41 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611280430.kAS4USY4050061@keith.ezwind.net> References: <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca>, <200611280430.kAS4USY4050061@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <456B5C49.18298.195428F@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2006 at 23:30, Bob wrote: > Century Computer ported the MDBS operatering system from the IBM System 1 to 8086 opt code in 1978/79 > It was used in several applications. Running the MDS-800 ISIS-II version of Intel's 80-to-86 assembly language source translation software was, IIRC, almost painful in its slowness. I tossed a 3000 line ASM80 file on it and it ran all night and finally died the next morning. We discovered that hand-translating 8080 to 8086 was much more space- efficient and actually faster. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 27 23:47:16 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:47:16 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <688423.41975.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ---snip--- > > > A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am not > > going to find one at a > > price I can afford... > > Mine...$20 US. Plus shipping. Hope is not lost... > Hi I've been having fun hacking my Cat ( Canon ). It was intended to be only an appliance machine but one can program with it as well. There is a page on the web that says one can just use the word "see" to decompile words but he must have had a disk that someone typed that definition in with. I've been slowly hacking how to decompile and I've made good progress. Still, there is so much to dig into. My main reason is to make a printer driver for my HP 3si. I was just doing some searches on Jef Raskin and the Cat and found that the Standford Library has manuals on the Forth in the Cat. Too bad I can't just photo copy them. I do plan on taking a day off soon and sit in their viewing room with a lot of note paper. They also have a lot of information from Jef's records on the Mac and Apple in general. Jef was an interesting fellow. The Cat is one of my favorite machines. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 28 00:03:41 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:03:41 +0100 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> Chris M wrote: > So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > European machines go for? Heck which are they? ETH Lilith's : 2901 based machine with Modula-2 M-code as machine language. Developed and deployed at the ETH in Switzerland, build in Utah ! ETH Ceres : 32000-based machine for Oberon development I have yet to see one on any auction site. Also Philips minis are rare indeed. And then there is this C64 based laptop with a 3" floppy and a EL high resolution flatscreen, build into a suitcase. It used an actual C64 motherboard..... ( PDC Clipper) However somehow the rarer European machines do not seem to command a premium when they sell. The clipper goes for less than a SX64 Jos Dreesen From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 28 00:13:16 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:13:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> from Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel at "Nov 28, 6 07:03:41 am" Message-ID: <200611280613.kAS6DGtr040758@floodgap.com> > And then there is this C64 based laptop with a 3" floppy and a EL high > resolution flatscreen, build into a suitcase. It used an actual C64 > motherboard..... ( PDC Clipper) I have never heard of this. Who made it? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Prostitutes Appeal to Pope ---------------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 00:20:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:20:57 -0700 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:03:41 +0100. <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <456BD13D.7090802 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > ETH Lilith's : 2901 based machine with Modula-2 M-code as machine > language. Developed and deployed at the ETH in Switzerland, build in Utah ! Got 3 of 'em with a bunch of spare boards in a 4th... I wouldn't mind having more information on them, I don't have the right monitor and keyboard for it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Nov 27 13:59:18 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:59:18 +0000 Subject: V80, was Various problems In-Reply-To: <200611271206.kARC63o4062193@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611271206.kARC63o4062193@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <613C44DD-0278-4072-8CBA-35A94CB3A773@microspot.co.uk> On 27 Nov, 2006, at 12:06, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Interestingly, it shows a Vesatec V80. Exactly the same thing has > happened to the platten roller in my V80 :-(, so sometime I am > going to > have to work out how to repair that,,, Would it be possible to extract the roller and clean it, then use multiple layers of inner tube to make it up to the right thickness? Use an adhesive to stick the layers together and to the metal roller otherwise they will work themselves up toward one end. Inner tubes are available in a wide range of sizes from bicycles, trade bikes (mountain these days?), motorcycles, cars, lorries and tractors and they can be stretched a lot. Roger. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Nov 27 18:10:23 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:10:23 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456B7E6F.9060200@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> ps. No Domesday system by the way? I could have sworn that you owned one! > > No, it's something I've not found yet... There are at least two of the drives in a high school on Orkney. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Nov 27 18:15:46 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:15:46 +0000 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061127015314.10746.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061127015314.10746.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456B7FB2.6070405@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > and what do you all use to eliminate the chunky green > gunk that seems to assumulate primarily on card edge > contacts? I was thinking of Brasso and a rag. I think > it's about time I got this Lisa operational. Had it > for a year and a half... I use the ink end of a pencil/ink rubber. Very gently though. Gordon From fa475919 at skynet.be Mon Nov 27 20:51:36 2006 From: fa475919 at skynet.be (Stijn Bagin) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:51:36 +0100 Subject: sanyo lat-200a Message-ID: <000501c71298$1f41e690$0401a8c0@wardriver> Hmm, there are indeed some smaller components I hadn't noticed that might indeed be memory, Some smaller unbranded 2x HC240's, 4x HC74's and some rather large ones : Malaysia 8835/ HM6264ALFP-12T. I'm still not sure I'm following, whilst you are probably giving me usefull information. My knowledge on the pure details of a harddisk are fairly limited. I know how it mechanically works, but how the data is carried is another thing. What does this mean: "From the OMTI chips you mention, I am now almost certain that's a raw interface, possibly simular to ST412." Could I use the 50 pins connection from the motherboard to the board for any other purpose ? Is any 26 pin HD in 3,5 inch available? What are my options? The original 26pin harddrive is dead, the step-motor to rotate the hard discs is fried. (Btw, the original HD takes its power from the datastrip). Thanx & Greetz Stijn From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 01:56:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:56:07 -0800 Subject: sanyo lat-200a In-Reply-To: <000501c71298$1f41e690$0401a8c0@wardriver> References: <000501c71298$1f41e690$0401a8c0@wardriver> Message-ID: <456B7B17.23015.20D98B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 3:51, Stijn Bagin wrote: > Could I use the 50 pins connection from the motherboard to the board > for any other purpose ? Is any 26 pin HD in 3,5 inch available? What > are my options? The original 26pin harddrive is dead, the step-motor > to rotate the hard discs is fried. (Btw, the original HD takes its > power from the datastrip). Does anyone have an old Plus Development Hardcard 20 kicking around? What does the pinout of the drive part look like? Maybe there's some hope there... Cheers, Chuck From jnugen at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 02:01:55 2006 From: jnugen at gmail.com (James Nugen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:01:55 -0800 Subject: Suggestions on through-hole prototyping board In-Reply-To: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <456AA44F.26054.194CFFBD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Velleman makes a variety of eurocard sized (160mmX100mm) proto cards that are pretty decent and inexpensive. http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/list/?id=342859 http://www.electronicsnmore.com/index.php/cPath/3_315 -James Nugen From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 02:14:27 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:14:27 +1300 Subject: sanyo lat-200a In-Reply-To: <456B7B17.23015.20D98B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000501c71298$1f41e690$0401a8c0@wardriver> <456B7B17.23015.20D98B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/28/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have an old Plus Development Hardcard 20 kicking around? > What does the pinout of the drive part look like? Maybe there's some > hope there... I think there's more than one model of the Hardcard 20 out there... ISTR older ones had an ST-412-like interface and drive, whereas I scavenged one Hardcard 20 with an *XT* IDE (WD95028-X or similar) drive. I was able to migrate the drive from the Hardcard frame to a Commodore PC-compatible (PC-III?) with no effort. So at the very least, be sure what your Hardcard is doing before trying to transplant drive mechs, etc. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 28 02:28:16 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:28:16 -0800 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > Chris M wrote: > > > So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > > European machines go for? Heck which are they? > > ETH Lilith's : 2901 based machine with Modula-2 M-code as machine > language. Developed and deployed at the ETH in Switzerland, build in Utah ! > > ETH Ceres : 32000-based machine for Oberon development > > I have yet to see one on any auction site. > > Also Philips minis are rare indeed. Just curious, where do NorskData minis fit in this?: How prevalent were they in the European marketplace compared to, for example, PDP-11s? Were they not used much in Britain (why doesn't Tony have any)?, more popular on the continent perhaps? Never see them here in Canada. I recall seeing a bank of (some model) in the beam-control room at CERN, in 1985, but I don't know whether that was an indication of their popularity/success or part of a bureacratic mandate to spread the purchasing money around to member countries. And what about Siemens? I have a perhaps incorrect impression of them making business mainframes (370-plug-compatible?), but did Siemens make a 'general purpose' mini? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 28 02:33:44 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:33:44 -0800 Subject: sanyo lat-200a References: <000501c71298$1f41e690$0401a8c0@wardriver> Message-ID: <456BF459.D8A1F2E7@cs.ubc.ca> Stijn Bagin wrote: > Hmm, there are indeed some smaller components I hadn't noticed > that might indeed be memory, Some smaller unbranded 2x HC240's, > 4x HC74's and some rather large ones : Malaysia 8835/ > HM6264ALFP-12T. ^^^^ 8 Kbyte Static RAM From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 03:06:30 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:06:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <457528.33368.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> you can do very well copying manuals and such with a mini digital cam, if its allowed. Id loan you mine if interested, no problem. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > ---snip--- > > > > > A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am not > > > going to find one at a > > > price I can afford... > > > > Mine...$20 US. Plus shipping. Hope is not lost... > > > > Hi > I've been having fun hacking my Cat ( Canon ). It was intended > to be only an appliance machine but one can program with it as well. > There is a page on the web that says one can just use the word > "see" to decompile words but he must have had a disk that someone > typed that definition in with. > I've been slowly hacking how to decompile and I've made good > progress. Still, there is so much to dig into. My main reason is > to make a printer driver for my HP 3si. > I was just doing some searches on Jef Raskin and the Cat and found > that the Standford Library has manuals on the Forth in the Cat. > Too bad I can't just photo copy them. I do plan on taking a > day off soon and sit in their viewing room with a lot of note paper. > They also have a lot of information from Jef's records on the Mac > and Apple in general. Jef was an interesting fellow. > The Cat is one of my favorite machines. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, > age, and price. Try it! > http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 03:29:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:29:37 -0700 Subject: FA: HP9000 systems (Ft. Meade, MD) Message-ID: Hey, speaking of HP9000 systems... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 04:03:41 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd - dec rainbow color monitor and card Message-ID: <53196.64060.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> [Sent by Yahoo! Mobile.] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 10:06:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:06:15 -0800 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com>, <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <456BEDF7.2746.3CE503D@cclist.sydex.com> I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the Soviet-era machines as being collectible. I seem to recall that Bulgaria was a center of Iron Curtain big iron production at one time. --Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 28 10:10:40 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:10:40 -0600 Subject: 74S-series grab bag on ePay Message-ID: <456C5F80.5080203@mdrconsult.com> http://shorterlink.org/1335 Seems somebody is always looking for them here. MC Howard is local to me, and I've mentioned them here before. If you look on their website they have a toll-free number - http://www.mchoward.com - and they have an amazing assortment of arcane/obsolete electronic parts. Don't pay any attention to the prices listed online. They may or may not be current. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 28 08:47:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:47:29 -0600 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems References: <20061127015314.10746.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <456B7FB2.6070405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <005a01c712fc$23766a10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chris M. wrote... >> and what do you all use to eliminate the chunky green >> gunk that seems to assumulate primarily on card edge >> contacts? Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 03:16:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:16:54 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <456BFE86.5070601@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Out of interest, were there many manufacturers who sold a system with >> three different CPUs as standard? There were a few around with two, I >> know... > > But what with different CPU's could you run? Looking back in hind sight > the only OS out there was CP/M for the 8080. All the rest just seemed > to have BASIC in ROM and some way of saveing programs. Yes, generally you're right I think in that there wasn't much OS-level software around; but that doesn't mean to say that there weren't lots of applications (and games!) floating about. DOS (in its Microsoft and IBM flavours) must have been reasonably common by the mid 80s. I'm sure that by the mid-80s lots of manufacturers had OSes specific to their hardware, too (e.g. PanOS and Brazil* in the Acorn world) * Although the latter was more of a program loader / debugger than a full OS. > I know somebody had planned a 6100 for use as CPU board but I forgot > who. That reminds me now that I got a PDP-8 clone I am going have to > learn how to use it. So what is the best way to learn OS/8? I still > can't get over how many features this has considering the size of the > PDP-8 for memory. Someone else can answer that one :) (I don't know why, but my eyes glaze over when it comes to DEC stuff even though I can't think why it shouldn't be interesting to me) cheers J. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 28 09:17:31 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:17:31 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <457528.33368.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they even don't allow a tripod. I'm not sure how I'd hold a camera steady enough to take pictures under those conditions. The other problem is the number of pages. There are about 700-800 pages. I'm just hoping that most of the pages are related to teaching Forth and with the glossory being the most intersting part. Dwight >From: Chris M >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: RE: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues >galleries >Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:06:30 -0800 (PST) > >you can do very well copying manuals and such with a >mini digital cam, if its allowed. Id loan you mine if >interested, no problem. >--- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > > > > > ---snip--- > > > > > > > A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am >not > > > > going to find one at a > > > > price I can afford... > > > > > > Mine...$20 US. Plus shipping. Hope is not lost... > > > > > > > Hi > > I've been having fun hacking my Cat ( Canon ). It >was intended > > to be only an appliance machine but one can program >with it as well. > > There is a page on the web that says one can just >use the word > > "see" to decompile words but he must have had a disk >that someone > > typed that definition in with. > > I've been slowly hacking how to decompile and I've >made good > > progress. Still, there is so much to dig into. My >main reason is > > to make a printer driver for my HP 3si. > > I was just doing some searches on Jef Raskin and the >Cat and found > > that the Standford Library has manuals on the Forth >in the Cat. > > Too bad I can't just photo copy them. I do plan on >taking a > > day off soon and sit in their viewing room with a >lot of note paper. > > They also have a lot of information from Jef's >records on the Mac > > and Apple in general. Jef was an interesting fellow. > > The Cat is one of my favorite machines. > > Dwight > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. >Get expert picks by style, > > age, and price. Try it! > > >http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. >http://new.mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Nov 28 10:44:40 2006 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: 28 Nov 2006 11:44:40 -0500 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes Message-ID: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> While attempting to restore some files from a 4mm tape, using an HP SureStore Tape 2000 drive, something happened to me for the first time: the drive made a strange moaning sound then stopped reading the tape. Not only did the drive stop reading the tape, but it had begun eating the tape as well, nearly chewing all the way through it on one spot. I'm guessing that this is a problem which, if not affecting others yet, will soon start affecting others who are relying upon such drives for backing up and restoring critical data. Fortunately, I'd recently switched to using DLT IV drives for backups, but a few files that I wanted to restore were still on other tapes. Does anyone know where rubber parts for these drives, like rollers, can can be purchased, so that others with these drives can replace them and avoid what I experienced? I should have realized that something was about to go wrong with internal parts as well when one of the drive's rubber feet began to stick to the metal chassis it was resting upon. -- R. D. Davis 410-744-4900 Beware & halt the National Animal ID System (NAIS)! www.rddavis.org http://nonais.org http://www.libertyark.org www.danglingspiders.com http://www.rddavis.org/equitation/freedom-vs-id.html Dangling Spiders Electronic Music Studio http://www.stopanimalid.org From tim.walls at snowgoons.com Tue Nov 28 05:03:50 2006 From: tim.walls at snowgoons.com (Tim Walls) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:03:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > Thanks for the offer. TO be honest, a copule of HPCC memebers have made > similar offers in the past (certainly scanning prints). I just need to > get round to taking some stuff... > >> >> (If you didn't want to entrust negs with me - and I wouldn't blame you - >> I'd be happy to give you a roll or two of TMax B&W film & you can post >> me the exposed rolls back - I can process & scan them myself at home.) > > As you well know, the cost of the film is minimal compared to the cost > of the time taking the pictures... Believe me, I know all too well - time is probably the most valuable commodity we don't have enough of, closely followed by space... I have a PCB layout for an electronics project which I had prepared in January I think that I *still* haven't done anything with because I just haven't had any time. (Partly my own seasonal prioritising; Summer is for getting out there with camera in hand to see as much of the world as possible, Winter is for poring over dead bits of computer - at least that's what I'm trying to convince myself :-).) The offer of film was partly because it's so damn hard to get hold of professional film these days. It's a lot easier in London than out here in the provinces I think, but while it's certainly not yet unobtainium going shopping for a roll of, say, TMax 400 round here is an exercise in hope over expectation. My wife has had to come to terms with the house not only being full of computer 'junk', but the fridge also being full of rolls of film because I buy in bulk :-). Anyway, I fully understand; if you do ever find the time to take those shots, the offer is always open. >> Canon A1, an absolutely beautiful bit of kit IMHO, and I'm hoping a > > Rather too much electronics for my taste... I had a hunch you'd say that ;-). >> 1950s Russian Zorki rangefinder is going to land in my lap before > > Which one? If you need any hints on repairing it, e-mail me. I've worked > on a number of FEDs and Zorkis, I also have 'All you need to know about > the design and repair of Russian cameras'.... Thanks very much for the offer - I might just take you up on that! It's a Zorki 1b with the 'standard' Industar 50mm lens; not particularly rare, but as my first foray into rangefinders (and bottom-loaders for that matter) I didn't want something I'd be too scared to use! Kind regards, Tim -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 28 11:27:06 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:27:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they even don't > allow a tripod. I'm not sure how I'd hold a camera steady enough to take > pictures under those conditions. The other problem is the number of > pages. There are about 700-800 pages. I'm just hoping that most of the > pages are related to teaching Forth and with the glossory being the most > intersting part. How about one of those little table top camera stands? Surely they'd allow one of those... -Toth From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Nov 28 09:16:02 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:16:02 Subject: FS: HP 110 Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20061128091602.40b7854e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Reply to Bob. >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:09:47 -0500 >From: Bob Duha >Subject: HP 110 >To: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com >User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 >X-MID: 1654898886 >Original-recipient: rfc822;rigdonj at cfl.rr.com > >Hi I have an Hewlett Packard HP 110 with the manuals and case. No printer >unfortunately. It does have a couple of extra cords. It will power up with >the adaptor but the battery is probably long gone. I can send pictures if >you like. Do you know of anyone that would be interested in purchasing this? >I have no idea what it is worth but I bought it brand new in 1984 and have >had it in my possession since. It has Lotus 123 on it. > >Robert B. Duha >380 Brookside Dr. >Ann Arbor, MI 48105 >C - 734-730-2527 >H- 734-994-5692 > Joe From ccrodie at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 28 07:37:23 2006 From: ccrodie at bellsouth.net (Chris Rodie) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:37:23 -0500 Subject: Help With an Erastz-11 DLL In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061127170204.0d747090@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061127170204.0d747090@localhost> Message-ID: <456C3B93.6080101@bellsouth.net> Tom, Assembly source tends to contain directives that are assembler specific. The source could also be invoking macros that are contained in a specific assembler's libraries. Are there no comments at the top of the sources that say "assemble with ..."? Unless you are able/ willing to modify such assembler specific references in the source for other tools, you need to use the tools that John Wilson used. So if there are no clues in the sources, ask John. In general, good (and free) tools for assembling and linking x86 code for DOS or Windows include: NASM assembler http://sourceforge.net/projects/nasm MINGW compiler (for linking Windows dlls and exes) http://www.mingw.org/ DJGPP (for linking DOS protected mode programs) http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/ Regards, C. Rodie Tom Peters wrote: > At 03:52 PM 11/27/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> Can anyone help me with a simple link to an assembler / linker for a >> Pentium III / Pentium 4? >> >> I am attempting to use the EMEM.DLL (Emulated PDP-11 Memory) >> under Ersatz-11, but I am basically a dummy when it comes to using >> X86 code, especially finding a pair of suitable assembler / linker >> programs. >> I downloaded the Watfor programs, wasm.exe and wlink.exe, but I am >> not able to assemble the original file, EMEM.ASM at this point. >> >> In case anyone is interested, the EMEM.DLL under E11 provides access >> to PC RAM via emulated PDP-11 hardware registers. The current version >> which I have been using allows up to 8 MBytes, but I want to increase >> that >> to about 600 MBytes so that I can write a faster sieve program for Prime >> Numbers which looks like it runs in a PDP-11. If I can get the test >> version >> to run fast enough on a Pentium III, I will try it on a Pentium 4 with >> 4 GBytes >> of memory and see if it is possible to sieve the primes up to 10**18 >> (essentially >> a 64 bit sieve program) in a reasonable time (i.e. less than 1 year!). > > http://www.grc.com/smgassembly.htm > > Contains some asm resources as well as a list 8 or 9 other links at the > bottom of the page. > > > > > > > > [Alcohol] Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will > teach you to keep your mouth shut. --Ernest Hemmingway > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User > 385531 > > > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 28 11:09:58 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: <457528.33368.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128120149.05e0e940@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that dwight elvey may have mentioned these words: >Hi >Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they >even don't allow a tripod. No tripods whatsoever? I just purchased this cute little desktop model that can pretty much fit in your pants pocket ("Is that a tripod in your pocket or are you just happy to see me???" ;-) =-= Note: I did *not* say "comfortably." Any recent (20 years or newer) military pants would surely have big enough pockets to hold it. A Canon/Nikon DSLR with an f1.4 50mm lens, and you might not even need the tripod; tho you'd best hope the pages are fairly flat (depth of field might not be "great" at that aperture) and the autofocus is pretty accurate... ;-) > I'm not sure how I'd hold a >camera steady enough to take pictures under those conditions. >The other problem is the number of pages. There are about >700-800 pages. A 1-Gig flash media (Compact Flash/SD/Insert your favorite here) should hold that easy, if you set it to JPEG instead of RAW. Unforch, I don't have my Nikon D70 with me to test it for sure, but it can hold over 150 pictures in RAW mode, which are 5-6Meg each. 2-each Gig CF cards makes sure I have *lots* of "film"... ;-) Too bad I'm not local to myself, let alone anywhere civilized, else I'd volunteer to help! And no, I'm *not* shipping my camera away... the holidays are coming up. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 28 11:32:31 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:32:31 -0800 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes Message-ID: > I'm guessing that this is a problem which, if not affecting others > yet, will soon start affecting others who are relying upon such drives > for backing up and restoring critical data. Decomposing rubber components has been a problem for digital tape transports for at least a decade or more now. I know of no vendor who supplies replacements for the dozens of different QIC transports, for example. Crisis Computer used to fix HP transports, but they do not sell parts, only expensive refurbed complete units. This should be a business opportunity for someone, but I don't know of anyone who is selling replacement rubber parts for digital transports. Anyone who has historically significant data on tape should get it OFF of that media as quickly as possible and onto something that is more easy to migrate in the future. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 28 11:33:44 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:33:44 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: > Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they even don't > allow a tripod. What about a hand scanner? Can you even buy those any more? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 11:45:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:45:24 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk>, <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2006 at 20:54, woodelf wrote: > But what with different CPU's could you run? Looking back in hind sight > the only OS out there was CP/M for the 8080. All the rest just seemed > to have BASIC in ROM and some way of saveing programs. Lots of "chicken and egg" here. Before affordable floppy storage was available, there was little need for much in the way of operating systems; you loaded a program from audio cassette or (if you were rich), paper tape and ran it. Most folks got by with just a "monitor". When floppy systems got a little more affordable, then there was a definite need for operating systems. And there were quite a few-- consider all of the office word processing systems; they all had their own operating systems and they were all different (e.g., you couldn't read CPT diskettes on a Vydec). Some of this was the result of the old "operating system is a cost of the hardware" mindset. Univac didn't use CDC's operating system or its methodologies. So if you were developing a "serious" micro system (as opposed to hobbyist), you wrote your own OS and your own applications. The fact that you used the same CPU as someone else, was interesting, but not important. The range of peripheral interface differences was staggering--you weren't going to even try to run your Artec WP software on another 8080-based system. In my mind, that's why Gary Kildall earned his gold star--the realization that you could sell an operating system independent of the manufacturer's hardware--and toss in a few utilities, such as an assembler and an editor that made it useful. The next step--applications--with really (for the time) top-notch products such as WordStar served as impetus for manufacturers to simply license an OS and resell the applications. No one actually wanted to develop their own OS--it was expensive and then there was the matter of applications. At Durango, we developed the entire thing top-to-bottom, hardware, OS (CP/M wasn't quite real when we started) and applications. It was horribly expensive, but one couldn't simply deploy an empty box and tell customers to find their own software. Other manufacturers did likewise in the beginning. Eventually, we offered CP/M for the Durango just to give customers access to the generic x80 application base. I recall the VP of finance telling me that he couldn't believe how *cheap* it was to use someone else's software--and how that made the whole scheme suspect. After that, applications software just ballooned--and in particular, when VisiCalc (and its various clones) got deployed, every executive and not just their secretaries, had to have a computer of some sort. Spreadsheets were cool. Aside from some niche applications, the notion of developing a unique OS for your own hardware was pretty much dead. Many vertical market developers (which is where the real money was) had already discovered Gordon Eubank's BASIC-M and the follow-on CBASIC. There were CP/M "work alike" competitors, but the price point of CP/M, particularly with OEMs was just too hard to beat. Manufacturers who decided to use other non-x80 CPUs found themselves firmly mired in the old "build a box, write the software" mold. Apple is one such case and is really surprising in that it managed to survive and prosper. Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Nov 28 11:49:30 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:49:30 +0100 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes References: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <002501c71315$90a4d130$2101a8c0@finans> From: "R. D. Davis" > While attempting to restore some files from a 4mm tape, using an HP > SureStore Tape 2000 drive, something happened to me for the first > time: the drive made a strange moaning sound then stopped reading the > tape. Not only did the drive stop reading the tape, but it had begun > eating the tape as well, nearly chewing all the way through it on one > spot. Some years ago, I had to read a DDS-2 tape on (IIRC) a C1533 drive. New. The first read went ok, but when I had to read it again, the tape was wrapped around one of the motors. This customer was not very pleased, as it was part of a criminal investigation. Nico From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 06:47:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:47:10 -0600 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <456BEDF7.2746.3CE503D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com>, <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <456BEDF7.2746.3CE503D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <456C2FCE.4000102@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the Soviet-era > machines as being collectible. I seem to recall that Bulgaria was a > center of Iron Curtain big iron production at one time. Does much of the big stuff survive intact - and if it does, is there enough supporting documentation and software around to make it interesting for the private collector, though? I have no idea what the actual status is, but my guess would be that most big old machines were scrapped for useful parts long ago - and that of any survivors there are so few that there's just no knowledge left in order to restore them back to health (assuming that software even exists) -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 06:52:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:52:38 -0600 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456C3116.9010407@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > Anyone who has historically significant data on tape should get it OFF of > that media as quickly as possible and onto something that is more easy to > migrate in the future. DLT [tapes] and drives seem to be holding up pretty well. Quarter inch tapes seem to be pretty good, but the drives are becoming a problem. As for DAT... I wouldn't touch it any more. Too many bad experiences. Others, such as open-reel, I don't know about. I'd certainly trust DLT more than I would home-burned optical media (CD or DVD) though. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 11:55:14 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:55:14 -0500 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456C7802.80403@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: >> Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they even don't >> allow a tripod. > > What about a hand scanner? > > Can you even buy those any more? They show up now and again at this used equipment place I deal with. Peace... Sridhar From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Nov 28 11:55:58 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:55:58 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <457528.33368.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <457528.33368.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C782E.6090800@msm.umr.edu> Chris M wrote: >you can do very well copying manuals and such with a >mini digital cam, if its allowed. Id loan you mine if >interested, no problem. > > > I keep several of the Canon LIDE models that are usb powered. If you can walk in with a battery powered laptop somewhere with these, you can scan with a bed scanner at full resolution. I strongly recommend collecting them, as they regularly show up at thrift shops, and swap meets. they were not very expensive, but run quite well with only the laptop in site. then you just need a spotter :-) jim From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 12:24:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:24:29 -0700 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:47:10 -0600. <456C2FCE.4000102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456C2FCE.4000102 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the Soviet-era > > machines as being collectible. I seem to recall that Bulgaria was a > > center of Iron Curtain big iron production at one time. > > Does much of the big stuff survive intact - and if it does, is there enough > supporting documentation and software around to make it interesting for the > private collector, though? >From browsing around sites of European collectors it appears that some of this stuff has survived. Fortunately, since they are things like PDP-11 clones you don't necessarily need docs for them specifically; the PDP-11 doc sets will get you by. At least that's what I understand from reading about it. It might be a little different when you saw the machines in the flesh. However, since their goal was to essentially rip-off successful western designs, it would be rather moot if they weren't software compatible so that they could steal the software as well. So I'm guessing that the hardware is pretty much a straight clone. > I have no idea what the actual status is, but my guess would be that most big > old machines were scrapped for useful parts long ago - [...] You'd be surprised what happens in an inefficient market like the former eastern bloc countries. I saw an episode of Modern Marvels where NASA was using a number of Soviet era rocket engines from the early 60s. An engineer on the Soviet project had sequestered them in a warehouse for 40+ years instead of destroying them as ordered at the time. My feeling is that the older stuff has more of a chance surviving in inefficient markets than in efficient market economies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Tue Nov 28 12:35:59 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:35:59 -0500 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> , <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 09:45 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The next step--applications--with really (for the time) top-notch > products such as WordStar served as impetus for manufacturers to > simply license an OS and resell the applications. No one actually > wanted to develop their own OS--it was expensive and then there was > the matter of applications. WordStar collects a great deal of derision now, but when it came out, I thought it just might have been developed by an extra-terrestrial civilization, and delivered to us poor schmucks to help us crawl out of the muck and become civilized ourselves. (I didn't have much experience with decent software at the time.) > Many vertical market developers (which is where the real > money was) had already discovered Gordon Eubank's BASIC-M and the > follow-on CBASIC. The three BASICS that ruled the CP/M world were the Microsoft BASIC interpreter, generally referred to as "M-BASIC" in the U.S., BASIC-E, Gordon Eubanks' public domain compiler, developed while he was attending class with Gary Kildall at the Naval Postgraduate School, and CBASIC, which is an extension of BASIC-E by Gordon, made on his own time, and not in the public domain. Of these, CBASIC is far and away the best. (Bias note: Gordon is a friend of mine. I believe I'm being objective, but YMMV.) > There were CP/M "work alike" competitors, but the price point of > CP/M, particularly with OEMs was just too hard to beat. > Manufacturers who decided to use other non-x80 CPUs found themselves > firmly mired in the old "build a box, write the software" mold. > Apple is one such case and is really surprising in that it managed to > survive and prosper. You can thank the Woz for that. His clear thinking kept Steve Jobs from killing the company, which he would have done, given his hand... IMHO. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Nov 28 12:40:33 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:40:33 +0000 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:03:41 +0100." <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200611281840.SAA04658@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jos Dreesen said: > > ETH Ceres : 32000-based machine for Oberon development > > I have yet to see one on any auction site. > If one of those turns up, you'll have to fight me for it :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 12:48:20 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:48:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <235824.84175.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> > How about one of those little table top camera > stands? right, I was thinking of building a collapsible unit from brass tubing essentially (hobby and some hardware stores). It would be light, sturdy, and you could stick it in your jacket...or somewhere else LOL LOL LOL. Sorry. The little Aiptek PenCam thing, which in no way resembles a pen, works off 2 AAA's, takes an SD card (though I'm not sure if it'll recognize the whole 1gb, also have a 128k and 32k cards. Something tells me it might though). I had rechargeables batteries for it, but I had been utilizing them in an HP calculator, left it on top of my van, and drove off! Salvaged the calc, 1 or 2 of the batteries (not sure I'd trust them anymore, they look like they got run over partially). I'm going to buy new ones though. A little OT, but when I did plug batteries into the calculator, an HP 49g, although beat up, it seemed to work fine, though it would drain the batteries FAST, and 1 in particular got real hot? Any clues? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 28 12:56:30 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:56:30 +0000 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 28/11/06 16:44, "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Does anyone know where rubber parts for these drives, like rollers, > can can be purchased, so that others with these drives can replace > them and avoid what I experienced? I should have realized that > something was about to go wrong with internal parts as well when one > of the drive's rubber feet began to stick to the metal chassis it was > resting upon. We're beginning to see failures in a lot of DEC TLZ06/07 units; fortunately they can be replaced with TLZ09/10 drives. If a customer needs something repaired we can only resort to ebay and/or our collection of 2nd user brokers because trying to track down individual parts is too expensive, timewise. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 12:58:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <005a01c712fc$23766a10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > Chris M. wrote... > >> and what do you all use to eliminate the chunky > green > >> gunk that seems to assumulate primarily on card > edge > >> contacts? > > Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > > Jay Yo thanks. Where can I find the stu-f-f (see, I was careful there LOL LOL). It hurt too ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 28 13:11:44 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:11:44 +0100 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <200611280613.kAS6DGtr040758@floodgap.com> References: <200611280613.kAS6DGtr040758@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <456C89F0.40100@bluewin.ch> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> And then there is this C64 based laptop with a 3" floppy and a EL high >> resolution flatscreen, build into a suitcase. It used an actual C64 >> motherboard..... ( PDC Clipper) > > I have never heard of this. Who made it? > PDC, a Hamburg based startup ca. 1984 They went bust as soon as the first machines hit the market. The machines were made by a Siemens branch in Belgium, which was desparate for work. The machine was in no way ready for production. Imagine a suitcase with a C64 motherboard and around 60 wires soldered to it.... Jos Dreesen From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 13:17:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:17:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456BFE86.5070601@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <381590.42720.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> if you all are going to cheat like crazy, then I'm going to submit the Dimension 68000. No it wasn't loaded as stock with FOUR cpu's, but they were "intended" as optional equipment - 68000 running CP/M 68K, 8088 for MS-DOS, 6502 for Apple DOS, and a Z80 for CP/M. So there. And along those lines, how about an IBM PC/XT with 4 PGA cards (each one took up 2 slots and had an onboard 8088). You'd then have a computer w/FIVE CPU's, not even counting the ones on the keyboard or floppies or whatever (well you couldn't actually utilize a floppy with a system configured as such, but who cares LOL). If you could hack each of those cards (or 3 of them, chances are you'd want some sort of output), you'd have one mondo cool multiprocessing box. Better yet just hook a dumb terminal and you could work all 5. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 28 13:18:37 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:18:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061128191837.C79C058194@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M > > > Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > > > > Jay > > Yo thanks. Where can I find the stu-f-f (see, I was > careful there LOL LOL). It hurt too > Radio Shack seems to sell it - 64.4338. Cheers, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 08:35:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:35:42 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <381590.42720.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <381590.42720.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > if you all are going to cheat like crazy, then I'm > going to submit the Dimension 68000. No it wasn't > loaded as stock with FOUR cpu's, but they were > "intended" as optional equipment - 68000 running CP/M > 68K, 8088 for MS-DOS, 6502 for Apple DOS, and a Z80 > for CP/M. So there. Actually, I'm not sure if that should count or not... it's certainly closer to qualifying than something which just happened to have CPUs as peripheral processors. I suppose it depends on how "optional" they were and how much additional circuitry was needed to support them. > And along those lines, how about an IBM PC/XT with 4 > PGA cards (each one took up 2 slots and had an onboard > 8088). You'd then have a computer w/FIVE CPU's Ahh, I was originally asking after systems with different CPUs though, not several of the same type - mainly to rule out lots of posts about parallel machines (as I was curious as to how many manufacturers managed to make a go of selling 'average' systems with a mixture of CPU types - parallel machines tend to be in a different league) From ray at arachelian.com Tue Nov 28 12:43:55 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:43:55 -0500 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456C836B.4060904@arachelian.com> Um, is this the droid you're looking for? :-) http://jef.raskincenter.org/published/cat_ref.html dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they > even don't allow a tripod. I'm not sure how I'd hold a > camera steady enough to take pictures under those conditions. > The other problem is the number of pages. There are about > 700-800 pages. I'm just hoping that most of the pages are > related to teaching Forth and with the glossory being the > most intersting part. > Dwight > > > >> From: Chris M >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts" >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: RE: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues >> galleries >> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:06:30 -0800 (PST) >> >> you can do very well copying manuals and such with a >> mini digital cam, if its allowed. Id loan you mine if >> interested, no problem. >> --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > ---snip--- >> > > >> > > > A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am >> not >> > > > going to find one at a >> > > > price I can afford... >> > > >> > > Mine...$20 US. Plus shipping. Hope is not lost... >> > > >> > >> > Hi >> > I've been having fun hacking my Cat ( Canon ). It >> was intended >> > to be only an appliance machine but one can program >> with it as well. >> > There is a page on the web that says one can just >> use the word >> > "see" to decompile words but he must have had a disk >> that someone >> > typed that definition in with. >> > I've been slowly hacking how to decompile and I've >> made good >> > progress. Still, there is so much to dig into. My >> main reason is >> > to make a printer driver for my HP 3si. >> > I was just doing some searches on Jef Raskin and the >> Cat and found >> > that the Standford Library has manuals on the Forth >> in the Cat. >> > Too bad I can't just photo copy them. I do plan on >> taking a >> > day off soon and sit in their viewing room with a >> lot of note paper. >> > They also have a lot of information from Jef's >> records on the Mac >> > and Apple in general. Jef was an interesting fellow. >> > The Cat is one of my favorite machines. >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. >> Get expert picks by style, >> > age, and price. Try it! >> > >> http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. >> http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces > friends list. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk > > > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 28 13:46:21 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:46:21 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128144617.0575a860@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >--- Jay West wrote: > > > Chris M. wrote... > > >> and what do you all use to eliminate the chunky > > green > > >> gunk that seems to assumulate primarily on card > > edge > > >> contacts? > > > > Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > > > > Jay > > Yo thanks. Where can I find the stu-f-f (see, I was >careful there LOL LOL). Google is your friend... http://www.caig.com/ For potentiometers & whatnot, this stuff works wonders, too: http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.183/.f I bought an old 0-40V 0-1.5A variable bench power supply at a garage sale for $5.00 USD; it worked fine but the pots were *very scratchy* - couple shots of that stuff in each one and a couple full wipes, and the rascal's dead on again. Smooth as silk. :-) > It hurt too They have creams for that now. ;-) Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 28 13:57:58 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:57:58 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: > Um, is this the droid you're looking for? :-) > http://jef.raskincenter.org/published/cat_ref.html That is the user's manual. He wanted the programming information. CHM received a donation of some forth listings from another source about six months ago for the CAT at various stages of development if you aren't able to get the info you need from Stanford. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 14:02:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:02:40 -0700 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:17:46 -0800. <381590.42720.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <381590.42720.qm at web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > if you all are going to cheat like crazy, then I'm > going to submit the Dimension 68000. No it wasn't > loaded as stock with FOUR cpu's, but they were > "intended" as optional equipment - 68000 running CP/M > 68K, 8088 for MS-DOS, 6502 for Apple DOS, and a Z80 > for CP/M. So there. OK, how about 45 CPUs? The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation has one MIPS R4000 and anywhere from 4 to 44 AT&T DSP32Cs. Made right here in Utah. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 14:05:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:05:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <399607.37709.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > if you all are going to cheat like crazy, then I'm > > going to submit the Dimension 68000. No it wasn't > > loaded as stock with FOUR cpu's, but they were > > "intended" as optional equipment - 68000 running > CP/M > > 68K, 8088 for MS-DOS, 6502 for Apple DOS, and a > Z80 > > for CP/M. So there. > > Actually, I'm not sure if that should count or > not... it's certainly closer to > qualifying than something which just happened to > have CPUs as peripheral > processors. I suppose it depends on how "optional" > they were and how much > additional circuitry was needed to support them. Maybe more so then I even thought. If you're not familiar with it, the Dimension 68000 tried to be all things to all people. Surely not an unobtainable goal, there have been numerous add-on cards for other machines that worked well, but the "emulation" aspects didn't work out so well (I'm told). It probably took more resources then they could muster at the time, or just more time. Mindcraft I think was the company IIRC. I have one reserved for me by someone, but I'm trying to raise the capitol to secure several more boxes (albeit not working) to distribute to the masses when the time is right. Truly a unique uh platform as far as I can tell. Was curious if there was anything like it across the pond. Or did I ask this already... The 68k portion worked quite well though. If you google it you'll find there was a few at work at JPL back in the day. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 28 14:26:05 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:26:05 -0700 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: >>Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > Yo thanks. Where can I find the stu-f-f (see, I was > careful there LOL LOL). It hurt too -- try here! http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 14:35:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:35:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <929835.52175.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > >>Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with the stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? This presumes some of you have used it, but it's essentially a liquid polishing compound mainly intended for furniture, brass bedposts and the like. It will restore luster. I don't know if it could prove detrimental to the varnish used on boards, or the boards themselves...so I guess I should try it. Just curious if it was really anything different, so as not to blow cash where it wasn't necessary. And what about battery corrosion, whether it be on a board or on say contacts (not on the Lisa, just that it would be nice to know). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 14:49:32 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:49:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: wtd - HP wrist instrument lol and Omnibook Message-ID: <721639.50973.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah right on the first one. The Omnibooks look so cool though. Ping me. Who think Carly Fiorina must have been real hot when she was younger? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 14:51:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:51:48 -0700 Subject: AT&T 730 MGT graphic terminals Message-ID: Anyone know anything about these? Apparently they could be used as X terminals and they are essentially diskless workstations with a 68000 inside. There is some stuff in Richard Shuford's usenet post terminal archives, but not much else I've seen around. Any AT&T 3B2 owners out there have one of these in a working state? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 28 14:51:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:51:36 -0600 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems References: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <008001c7132f$01994100$6700a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >>>Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. Let me rephrase that.... Caig ProGold and a Toothbrush. Best thing out there. By the way... Caig ProGold seems very expensive for the quantity you get. However, be aware that one very small spray can (about 4.5 inches tall and 2 inches diameter roughly) lasted me several years with fairly frequent use. The stuff goes a long way - apply VERY sparingly. For edge card cleaning/protecting, I can't imagine using the liquid. Get the spray can. GooGone is another absolute requirement for me. Nothing like it to take off labels, tape residue, adhesive gunk, etc. It's also good for taking off the adhesive left behind from foam that had an adhesive backing but has now disintigrated. Some GooGone, 10 minutes soaking, and a putty knife and it's gone. And lastly, one fairly new thing I will never be without for cleaning up old systems - Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. They don't last long at all... one or two uses. But MAN do they give good results. They can make the edges of a dark orange pdp11 H960 filler panel cream colored again. And they can make a cream colored pdp11 H960 filler panel edges white again. In some cases it takes a lot of elbow grease, but they are great on nonsmooth surfaces. A perfect use - taking magicmarker off sidepanels or frontpanels, terminals, etc. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 28 14:57:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:57:10 -0600 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems References: <929835.52175.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008501c7132f$c87b8f80$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chris M wrote.... > ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with the > stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? Brasso is for Brass. Not Gold. I am not a chemist... but I can't imagine using Brasso. There are several things to consider... removing oxidation and debris, sealing, and lubricating. Caig ProGold does all of the above. It is electrically inert in case you forgot to power off that board before spraying it. But in addition to the cleaning and sealing capabilities.... ProGold is awesome for lubrication. Have a lot of boards that just don't ever want to come out of the backplane or seat in it well? Without rocking back and forth and prying? Clean the backplane pins and the card edges with Caig ProGold. It will slide in and out nicely from now on. It's an immediately noticeable difference. Not to mention the whole "better contact" thing. Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 28 15:01:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <200611280613.kAS6DGtr040758@floodgap.com> References: <200611280613.kAS6DGtr040758@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20061128125405.U6928@shell.lmi.net> > And then there is this C64 based laptop with a 3" floppy and a EL high > resolution flatscreen, build into a suitcase. It used an actual C64 > motherboard..... ( PDC Clipper) 3"? or 3.5"? a european machine could be either. Along similar lines, back in the USA, Elcompco built TRS80s, then IBM 5150s, into Halliburton attache cases, along with 5"-8" monitors, drives, etc. Adam Osborn drank a glass of our champagne at our Computer Faire booth and admired the machine, a few hours before announcing that his machine was the first ever portable microcomputer. (Even if he didn't take the Elcompco machine seriously, what about the IBM 5100?) From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Nov 28 15:08:52 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:08:52 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <008001c7132f$01994100$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca> <008001c7132f$01994100$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <456CA564.6040706@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jay West wrote: > And lastly, one fairly new thing I will never be without for cleaning up > old systems - Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. They don't last long at all... one > or two uses. But MAN do they give good results. They can make the edges > of a dark orange pdp11 H960 filler panel cream colored again. And they > can make a cream colored pdp11 H960 filler panel edges white again. In > some cases it takes a lot of elbow grease, but they are great on > nonsmooth surfaces. A perfect use - taking magicmarker off sidepanels or > frontpanels, terminals, etc. Hi Jay. What do you use in conjunction with the Magic Eraser to accomplish this? Alcohol, Mean Green or something along those lines? Thanks! Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFbKVkCFu3bIiwtTARAglCAJ96KgP89co59HT5xcgvo32OYGJFCQCfWI1Y vebeu9uaPIanvjDIsHkqoL0= =Ohx/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 15:10:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <008001c7132f$01994100$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <765805.58000.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > GooGone is another absolute requirement for me. > Nothing like it to take off > labels, tape residue, adhesive gunk, etc. It's also > good for taking off the > adhesive left behind from foam that had an adhesive > backing but has now > disintigrated. Some GooGone, 10 minutes soaking, and > a putty knife and it's > gone. Afta is a product I believe you can still find at Home Depot these days. It takes glues and residues RIGHT OFF. No soaking required. A small can, eh about a pint I guess, costs about $7, but it'll take you far. I learned of it's use at a shop that used to install carriage roofs on cars. They spray glue from like a paint gun, and it would get all over the upholstery and all. This stuff when applied with a rag took it right off. May not be intended for extended use on painted surfaces, but is pretty harmless to most things if not overused. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From jrr at flippers.com Tue Nov 28 12:48:11 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:48:11 -0800 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: At 11:44 AM -0500 11/28/06, R. D. Davis wrote: >While attempting to restore some files from a 4mm tape, using an HP >SureStore Tape 2000 drive, something happened to me for the first >time: the drive made a strange moaning sound then stopped reading the >tape. Not only did the drive stop reading the tape, but it had begun >eating the tape as well, nearly chewing all the way through it on one >spot. > >I'm guessing that this is a problem which, if not affecting others >yet, will soon start affecting others who are relying upon such drives >for backing up and restoring critical data. Fortunately, I'd recently >switched to using DLT IV drives for backups, but a few files that I >wanted to restore were still on other tapes. > >Does anyone know where rubber parts for these drives, like rollers, >can can be purchased, so that others with these drives can replace >them and avoid what I experienced? I should have realized that >something was about to go wrong with internal parts as well when one >of the drive's rubber feet began to stick to the metal chassis it was >resting upon. > >-- >R. D. Davis 410-744-4900 Beware & halt the National Animal ID System (NAIS)! >www.rddavis.org http://nonais.org http://www.libertyark.org >www.danglingspiders.com http://www.rddavis.org/equitation/freedom-vs-id.html >Dangling Spiders Electronic Music Studio http://www.stopanimalid.org I think you will be able to make replacement rollers from either typewriters, fax machine, or photocopier spare parts. These all use similar rubber drives. It will be 'fun' figuring out what you need, but at least the parts will be new and good for ten to twenty years. Keep spares in tightly sealed plastic bags - in our "Time Travel Warehouse" parts department (a huge parts supply from an arcade distributor that was closed and stored from 1982) we found that drive rollers, etc that were sealed in small plastic bags are STILL flexible after being tucked away for 25+ years! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 28 13:46:01 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:46:01 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <005a01c712fc$23766a10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128143917.03bc3fe8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >--- Jay West wrote: > > > Chris M. wrote... > > >> and what do you all use to eliminate the chunky > > green > > >> gunk that seems to assumulate primarily on card > > edge > > >> contacts? > > > > Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > > > > Jay > > Yo thanks. Where can I find the stu-f-f (see, I was >careful there LOL LOL). Google is your friend... http://www.caig.com/ For potentiometers & whatnot, this stuff works wonders, too: http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.183/.f I bought an old 0-40V 0-1.5A variable bench power supply at a garage sale for $5.00 USD; it worked fine but the pots were *very scratchy* - couple shots of that stuff in each one and a couple full wipes, and the rascal's dead on again. Smooth as silk. :-) > It hurt too They have creams for that now. ;-) Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From schultz at impulse.net.au Tue Nov 28 14:40:09 2006 From: schultz at impulse.net.au (Leo Schultz (Impulse)) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:40:09 +1100 Subject: Intel Magnetics BPK-72 Bubble memory Prototype Kit Message-ID: <001b01c7132d$66c65b00$7a01a8c0@LEOS> Hello, This may be of interest: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140058022601 regards Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 28 15:22:04 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:22:04 -0000 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c71333$41bc2e60$4104010a@uatempname> Al Kossow wrote: > Decomposing rubber components has been a problem for digital tape > transports for at least a decade or more now. I know of no vendor who > supplies replacements for the dozens of different QIC transports, for > example. My experience of DAT drives is that they would eat tape for fun even when new ... one or two units seem fine but I had half a dozen replaced when I was at DEC. DLT always had the decency to fail in non-destructive ways, the tape always survived intact. > Anyone who has historically significant data on tape should get it > OFF of that media as quickly as possible and onto something that is > more easy to migrate in the future. But to what should it be migrated. Don't all tape units rely on rollers somewhere? CD and/or DVD doesn't have a reputation that fills me with confidence and rotating disks need to be replicated and kept running otherwise who knows what state they'll be in when I do want to read something. Plus the disk capacity explosion seems to have stalled a little - I was expecting 1TB drives to be standard and cheap by now. Antonio From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Nov 28 15:17:46 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:17:46 -0800 Subject: TUK50 print set Message-ID: Does anyone have the TUK50 (M7547) maintenance print set or a scan? Not the TK50 drive print set, the real Unibus interface for the TK50. I'd like to get a copy. Thanks, John From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 15:31:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:31:59 -0800 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <20061128125405.U6928@shell.lmi.net> References: <200611280613.kAS6DGtr040758@floodgap.com>, <20061128125405.U6928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <456C3A4F.8210.4F887EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 13:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > Adam Osborn drank a glass of our champagne at our Computer Faire booth > and admired the machine, a few hours before announcing that his machine > was the first ever portable microcomputer. (Even if he didn't take the > Elcompco machine seriously, what about the IBM 5100?) The first time I saw an Osborne I was as a bunch of parts scattered across a tabletop at Sorcim. I had no idea of what they were going to put the electronics in, though I complained immediately about the small CRT. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 28 15:44:37 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:44:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <456C89F0.40100@bluewin.ch> from Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel at "Nov 28, 6 08:11:44 pm" Message-ID: <200611282144.kASLib3m065124@floodgap.com> > >> And then there is this C64 based laptop with a 3" floppy and a EL high > >> resolution flatscreen, build into a suitcase. It used an actual C64 > >> motherboard..... ( PDC Clipper) > > > > I have never heard of this. Who made it? > > > PDC, a Hamburg based startup ca. 1984 > They went bust as soon as the first machines hit the market. > The machines were made by a Siemens branch in Belgium, which was > desparate for work. > The machine was in no way ready for production. Imagine a suitcase with > a C64 motherboard and around 60 wires soldered to it.... How many of these were made? Do you have a picture? Compared to the hernia inducing SX-64 it sounds nicer, though. Was it in colour? Despite this, I love SX-64s and have four of them. They make the rounds at shows since it's easier to carry than a computer, monitor, disk drive and power supply. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Aibohphobia, the fear of palindromes. -- Brian Braunschweiger -------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 28 15:49:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:49:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061128134720.R6928@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > OK, how about 45 CPUs? The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation has > one MIPS R4000 and anywhere from 4 to 44 AT&T DSP32Cs. > Made right here in Utah. Deep Crack. The custom machine that John Gilmore made to defeat DES, hundreds of dedicated processors, each trying its own possibilities. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 15:50:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:50:40 -0800 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <929835.52175.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca>, <929835.52175.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C3EB0.6990.509A2D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 12:35, Chris M wrote: > ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with the > stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? One of my hobbies is repairing and rebuilding brass musical wind instruments (trumpets, horns, tubas, etc.)--and the mention of Brasso causes me to cringe. Basically it's an abrasive in a mixture of stoddard solvent and ammonia. The problem is that the abrasive is far to aggressive. Sometimes I'll get old horns that have had the engraving almost obliterated by overuse of Brasso. Consider that the gold plating on an edge connector is only a few microns thick and that gold is much softer than brass. On old PCBs, I've had pretty good success with just a toothbrush and a mild detergent in warm water. Follow up with a deionized water rinse followed by ethyl alcohol as a drier. In severe cases, a buffing compound, such as rouge, applied with a cotton buff on a Dremel should clean things right up. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 28 16:01:42 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:01:42 -0500 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> References: , <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> , <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com> <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2006, at 1:35 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > WordStar collects a great deal of derision now, but when it came > out, I thought it just might have been developed by an extra- > terrestrial > civilization, and delivered to us poor schmucks to help us crawl > out of > the muck and become civilized ourselves. (I didn't have much > experience > with decent software at the time.) I've no idea why Wordstar gets badmouthed so often. It's a fine word processor, especially for its era. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 16:04:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:04:00 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> References: , <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <456C41D0.8102.515D9AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 13:35, Warren Wolfe wrote: > WordStar collects a great deal of derision now, but when it came > out, I thought it just might have been developed by an extra-terrestrial > civilization, and delivered to us poor schmucks to help us crawl out of > the muck and become civilized ourselves. (I didn't have much experience > with decent software at the time.) The WS keystrokes are so engrained in my consciousness that I use the same keystrokes in my own personal editor and use Joe when I'm on *nix. To a touch typist, they made tons of sense--being able to position the cursor without having your hands leave the home keys. One MicroPro product that never gained much respect was WordStar 2000- -it really was a huge improvement over the original, yet few people used it. I have tons of my own correspondence still on WS2K. A good friend still maintains his contacts list as a DataStar database, running under CP/M 2.2 emulation on his XP-equipped PC. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 28 16:04:43 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:04:43 -0500 Subject: Intel Magnetics BPK-72 Bubble memory Prototype Kit In-Reply-To: <001b01c7132d$66c65b00$7a01a8c0@LEOS> References: <001b01c7132d$66c65b00$7a01a8c0@LEOS> Message-ID: <03389BC1-D81D-4B07-98FD-93E2373EA9EC@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:40 PM, Leo Schultz ((Impulse)) wrote: > This may be of interest: > > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140058022601 Oh if only he'd ship to the US!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 28 16:06:34 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:06:34 -0700 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <456CB2EA.9080807@jetnet.ab.ca> John Robertson wrote: > Keep spares in tightly sealed plastic bags - in our "Time Travel > Warehouse" parts department (a huge parts supply from an arcade > distributor that was closed and stored from 1982) we found that drive > rollers, etc that were sealed in small plastic bags are STILL flexible > after being tucked away for 25+ years! Better check for lost children too...Their quarters may have run out by now! :) Did that include pinball games too? > John :-#)# > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 16:13:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <200611282144.kASLib3m065124@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <876221.78338.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > How many of these were made? Do you have a picture? > > Compared to the hernia inducing SX-64 it sounds > nicer, though. Was it > in colour? I don't want to hear it. The quadruple hernia inducing Texas Instruments Portable Professional weighs 2-3x as much. I got both :). My SX is broke though :( > Despite this, I love SX-64s and have four of them. > They make the rounds > at shows since it's easier to carry than a computer, > monitor, disk drive > and power supply. Yep. And I'm probably the only person on planet earth with a respectable supply of NOS picture tubes for 'em. I'd consider some groovy trades. But otherwise NOT FOR SALE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I was considering making some weird display out of 9 of them. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 16:18:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:18:13 +1300 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <456BEDF7.2746.3CE503D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <456BEDF7.2746.3CE503D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/29/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the Soviet-era > machines as being collectible. I seem to recall that Bulgaria was a > center of Iron Curtain big iron production at one time. I would be overjoyed to see an Elektronika PDP-11 clone or some such, but unless you are Hans and have access to boot sales in the former East Germany, those items just don't appear that often. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 16:18:49 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:18:49 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <456C3EB0.6990.509A2D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca>, <929835.52175.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <456C3EB0.6990.509A2D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <456CB5C9.2080805@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On old PCBs, I've had pretty good success with just a toothbrush and > a mild detergent in warm water. Follow up with a deionized water > rinse followed by ethyl alcohol as a drier. In severe cases, a > buffing compound, such as rouge, applied with a cotton buff on a > Dremel should clean things right up. I tend to use a soft (read worn-out) toothbrush and methanol on old PCBs. I never pour the alcohol on the board. I always pour it in a tray and dip the toothbrush in it. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 28 16:19:58 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:19:58 +0000 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <002f01c71333$41bc2e60$4104010a@uatempname> Message-ID: On 28/11/06 21:22, "arcarlini at iee.org" wrote: > DLT always had the decency to fail in non-destructive ways, the tape > always survived intact. Oo no, when the spool motor gets out of sync with the cart motor (or the cart motor dies) much snappage takes place resulting in me swearing a lot while I manually unspool an entire cart's worth of tape from the spool reel :) To be fair this doesn't happen as often as snapped take-up leaders or dead PSUs in external boxes, but it does happen. > But to what should it be migrated. Don't all tape units rely > on rollers somewhere? CD and/or DVD doesn't have a reputation DLTs and Ultriums all use metal rollers, no traces of rubber anywhere, fortunately. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 16:24:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:24:54 -0500 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: , <456B5E51.4070406@yahoo.co.uk> , <456BB2DA.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com> <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <456CB736.9000200@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I've no idea why Wordstar gets badmouthed so often. It's a fine word > processor, especially for its era. If you know the commands well, it still holds up alright today. WYSIWYG? Who needs it! Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 16:27:52 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:27:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <456C3EB0.6990.509A2D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <91684.99588.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Nov 2006 at 12:35, Chris M wrote: > > > ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with > the > > stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? > > One of my hobbies is repairing and rebuilding brass > musical wind > instruments (trumpets, horns, tubas, etc.)--and the > mention of Brasso > causes me to cringe. Basically it's an abrasive in > a mixture of > stoddard solvent and ammonia. The problem is that > the abrasive is > far to aggressive. Sometimes I'll get old horns > that have had the > engraving almost obliterated by overuse of Brasso. > > Consider that the gold plating on an edge connector > is only a few > microns thick and that gold is much softer than > brass. > > On old PCBs, I've had pretty good success with just > a toothbrush and > a mild detergent in warm water. Follow up with a > deionized water > rinse followed by ethyl alcohol as a drier. In > severe cases, a > buffing compound, such as rouge, applied with a > cotton buff on a > Dremel should clean things right up. OT - would the effect of Brasso differ much from "jeweler's rouge", which I'm told is essentially rust and a lite oil? I've never actually seen it, not sure if it came as a solid or liquid (or is even still available). Sears sells these sticks nowadays, one of them being basically rust colored, so I guess that's basically it in solid form. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 16:28:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:28:17 -0700 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:49:26 -0800. <20061128134720.R6928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061128134720.R6928 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > > OK, how about 45 CPUs? The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation has > > one MIPS R4000 and anywhere from 4 to 44 AT&T DSP32Cs. > > Made right here in Utah. > > Deep Crack. The custom machine that John Gilmore made to defeat DES, > hundreds of dedicated processors, each trying its own possibilities. OK, but do you /own/ one? :-) Also, the ESV has quite a heap of commercially available standard CPUs, not custom CPUs. That didn't happen until the Freedom series accelerators for Sun, HP and IBM workstations. I have an AT&T Pixel Machine as well and it has gobs of processors in it. I think they are also AT&T DSP32Cs IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 16:33:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:33:47 -0700 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:18:13 +1300. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > I would be overjoyed to see an Elektronika PDP-11 clone or some such, > but unless you are Hans and have access to boot sales in the former > East Germany, those items just don't appear that often. By "boot sales" you mean electronic flea market type things? Or are you referring to sales of goods of questionable origin as in selling stolen goods from the boot (trunk for us Yanks) of a car? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From walkerpa at ihug.co.nz Tue Nov 28 16:37:37 2006 From: walkerpa at ihug.co.nz (Anna & Peter Walker) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:37:37 +1300 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611280758.kAS7wOjE081846@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002901c7133d$ce1d2da0$0201010a@phatboy> > > I was cleaning out the shed, and found this HP box I > > brought home for no particular good reason. It says - > > HP 9000 PC305, or very nearly. Is this along the line > > of what you're talking about? Most of the guts are > > Not really. That sounds like a somewhat interesting PC clone -- I assume > the expansion bus is ISA > According to the HP9000 Series 300 Technical Data booklet (Feb 88, 5951-6785, from www.hpmuseum.net), at that time HP had two Vectra models in the Series 300 lineup: * PC-305, HP Vectra CS PC (8086) * PC-308, HP Vectra ES/12 PC (80286) Each contained the HP BASIC Language Processor board with a Motorola 68000 at 8MHz, 512 K RAM (expandable), BASIC 5.0 in ROM (or Pascal 3.2 on floppy), and HP-IB & DIO interfaces. The museum has more info on these and other Vectras. Regards, Peter From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Nov 28 16:41:28 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:41:28 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <929835.52175.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128161051.04e544b8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: > > >>Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > >ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with the >stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? How does a hummingbird compare to a turkey? ;-) Even tho technically they're still both fowl, they're quite different critters... same with Brasso vs. Caig [anything]. Brasso is *not* designed with electronics in mind, and could quite possibly (probably?) damage anything of an electronic nature... > This presumes >some of you have used it, but it's essentially a >liquid polishing compound mainly intended for >furniture, brass bedposts and the like. It will >restore luster. I don't know if it could prove >detrimental to the varnish used on boards, or the >boards themselves...so I guess I should try it. "It" being the Brasso or the Caig products? If you mean Brasso, don't! I'd guess it'll wear the gold off the edge contacts faster than you can say "Oh Crap!" > Just curious if it was really anything different, Oh yea, totally different critters altogether! > so as not to blow cash where it wasn't necessary. It's necessary. "Right tool for the job" and all that. > And what about battery corrosion Totally different issue (assuming the "green" isn't battery corrosion to start with) - For that you'll want a mild acid (batteries are basic like Al Kaline ;-P ) then clean with distilled water and *thoroughly* dried.... there are several threads on this in the archives that are just a search away. Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 16:47:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:47:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hewlett Packard 9000 PC 305 Message-ID: <183575.91714.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Found it. Yes Tony was right. http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=218 Funny that HP came out with an 80286 PC compatible before their 8086 based PC. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 16:56:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:56:01 -0700 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:28:17 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > Also, the ESV has quite a heap of commercially available standard > CPUs, not custom CPUs. That didn't happen until the Freedom series > accelerators for Sun, HP and IBM workstations. I retract that statement slightly -- the Freedom series used the AMD 29k chip for per-vertex processing, but had more custom ASICs (a single ASIC replicated more times) than the ESV for per-pixel processing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 28 16:56:09 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061128145310.P6928@shell.lmi.net> > > Deep Crack. The custom machine that John Gilmore made to defeat DES, > > hundreds of dedicated processors, each trying its own possibilities. On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > OK, but do you /own/ one? :-) I have one of the processor chips. . . . just need about 1800 more, and some support circuitry, . . . From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Nov 28 16:57:00 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:57:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <008501c7132f$c87b8f80$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061128225700.57339.qmail@web81315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > There are several things to consider... removing > oxidation and debris, > sealing, and lubricating. Caig ProGold does all of > the above. ProGold is great stuff, but it is intended for sealing and lubrication only. For deoxidation, Caig makes another product, DeOxIt. --Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 28 16:59:47 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:59:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C41D0.8102.515D9AC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <456C0534.10544.42918F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site> <456C41D0.8102.515D9AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061128145813.M6928@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The WS keystrokes are so engrained in my consciousness that I use the > same keystrokes in my own personal editor and use Joe when I'm on > *nix. To a touch typist, they made tons of sense--being able to > position the cursor without having your hands leave the home keys. Wordstar shows the difference between "ease of use" v "ease of learning". They are the same, only if one is incapable of learning. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 28 17:03:55 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:03:55 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611281803.55159.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 28 November 2006 15:02, Richard wrote: > In article <381590.42720.qm at web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, > > Chris M writes: > > if you all are going to cheat like crazy, then I'm > > going to submit the Dimension 68000. No it wasn't > > loaded as stock with FOUR cpu's, but they were > > "intended" as optional equipment - 68000 running CP/M > > 68K, 8088 for MS-DOS, 6502 for Apple DOS, and a Z80 > > for CP/M. So there. > > OK, how about 45 CPUs? The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation has > one MIPS R4000 and anywhere from 4 to 44 AT&T DSP32Cs. > > Made right here in Utah. How about a Maspar MP-1? IIRC, it was 16,384 4-bit processors in a single machine, and a frontend of either a VAXstation 3520 (which I have, unfortunately, I couldn't save the MP1), or later, a MIPS-based DECstation. Or, PASM-1. It was a massively parallel machine made out of 68000 and 68010 MVME boards, and some custom interconnect. (FWIW, I have most of the remains of it, but it was a custom/research machine). The largest number of 'real' processors in a machine (ie, SMP), goes to a NCR WorldMark (aka Voyager) 5100 that's in my friend's garage. two machines with 32 x PPro 200's and 4GB ram each in a single "cabinet". I've also got a Sun E6500 which I could put 24 x 400MHz USII's in. Not really the "fastest" machine, though. That belongs to the next one... I've also got a bunch of (too many) IBM 9076-N81 (SP Nighthawk high node), which each have 16 x 375MHz POWER3-II CPUs, 8-16GB ram (well, ok, so one node has 32GB ;), and a high-speed interconnect card that has a datarate of 1GB/sec (yes, 1GByte, it's a parallel transport, not a serial transport). 4 fit in a single rack, with a switch. If you're running an program using MPI libraries, one rack looks a lot like a 64-processor machine. (If you include the service processors on each node, the switch, and the rack's power supply, that's actually 70 processors. More if you include uC's and dedicated processors on things like the network cards and SCSI disks. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From useddec at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 17:08:52 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:08:52 -0600 Subject: DEC 1140 etc BA11F expansion box Message-ID: <624966d60611281508t3cfac5e7u8c9c4fdce4dbe38d@mail.gmail.com> I have someone looking for up to 4 BA11F expansion boxes with or without cabinets or power supplies. If you have any please contact me off list. Thanks Paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 28 17:09:10 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:09:10 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <20061128145310.P6928@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061128145310.P6928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <26455655-A9CB-4E26-946A-B3A7BEFE0E98@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2006, at 5:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Deep Crack. The custom machine that John Gilmore made to defeat >>> DES, >>> hundreds of dedicated processors, each trying its own possibilities. > > On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: >> OK, but do you /own/ one? :-) > > I have one of the processor chips. > . . . just need about 1800 more, and some support circuitry, . . . Doug Humphrey has one of the CPU boards from that machine. I've drooled upon it many times. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 17:27:38 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:27:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC uPD 780c-1 Message-ID: <408009.39270.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Can this chip, said to be compatible with the Z80, be replaced by one altogether? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 28 17:31:17 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:31:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128161051.04e544b8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20061128233117.67381.qmail@web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: > > >>Caig ProGold. Best thing out there. > >ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with the >stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? How does a hummingbird compare to a turkey? ;-) Even tho technically they're still both fowl, they're quite different critters... same with Brasso vs. Caig [anything]. Brasso is *not* designed with electronics in mind, and could quite possibly (probably?) damage anything of an electronic nature... > This presumes >some of you have used it, but it's essentially a >liquid polishing compound mainly intended for >furniture, brass bedposts and the like. It will >restore luster. I don't know if it could prove >detrimental to the varnish used on boards, or the >boards themselves...so I guess I should try it. "It" being the Brasso or the Caig products? If you mean Brasso, don't! I'd guess it'll wear the gold off the edge contacts faster than you can say "Oh Crap!" > Just curious if it was really anything different, Oh yea, totally different critters altogether! > so as not to blow cash where it wasn't necessary. It's necessary. "Right tool for the job" and all that. > And what about battery corrosion Totally different issue (assuming the "green" isn't battery corrosion to start with) - For that you'll want a mild acid (batteries are basic like Al Kaline ;-P ) then clean with distilled water and *thoroughly* dried.... there are several threads on this in the archives that are just a search away. Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 17:38:37 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:38:37 +1300 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/29/06, Richard wrote: > By "boot sales" you mean electronic flea market type things? Yes. > Or are you referring to sales of goods of questionable origin as in > selling stolen goods from the boot (trunk for us Yanks) of a car? No. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 17:41:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:41:58 -0800 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <91684.99588.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <456C3EB0.6990.509A2D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <91684.99588.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C58C6.20336.56F8918@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 14:27, Chris M wrote: > OT - would the effect of Brasso differ much from > "jeweler's rouge", which I'm told is essentially rust > and a lite oil? I've never actually seen it, not sure > if it came as a solid or liquid (or is even still > available). Sears sells these sticks nowadays, one of > them being basically rust colored, so I guess that's > basically it in solid form. Actually a wax and ferric oxide. Very gentle--I can polish an instrument having only 6-9 microns of silver plate to a brilliant mirror-like shine using a 3 hp buffer using 8" cotton wheels charged with rouge without damaging the instrument. Abuse, of course, is possible with any power treatment. If the thought of rouge offends your sensibilities, try a mixture of whiting (precipitated chalk) and alcohol and a soft cotton rag. I've seen that used on gold-washed instruments (whose gold coating is so thin as to be transparent) to good effect. But stay away from Brasso. If you must, use something like Simichrome or Hagerty's Silver polish. All leave behind a bit of wax as a tarnish retardant. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 16:53:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:53:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: V80, was Various problems In-Reply-To: <613C44DD-0278-4072-8CBA-35A94CB3A773@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 27, 6 07:59:18 pm Message-ID: > > > On 27 Nov, 2006, at 12:06, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > Interestingly, it shows a Vesatec V80. Exactly the same thing has > > happened to the platten roller in my V80 :-(, so sometime I am > > going to > > have to work out how to repair that,,, > > > Would it be possible to extract the roller and clean it, then use That part is relatively easy. The 'roller' is more complicated than it appears, though, it's made of 2 rubber-coated plastic cylidners that run loosly on the shaft. Inside the end of each cylinder is a bevel gear, there's another simiar gear monted on a pin sticking out from the shaft. The whole lot forms a differential gear, of course, which I believe is there to keep the paper running striaght. Still, it all comes apart, and you end up with the 2 bits of the roller that you can clean up. > multiple > layers of inner tube to make it up to the right thickness? Use an > adhesive > to stick the layers together and to the metal roller otherwise they will > work themselves up toward one end. Inner tubes are available in a > wide range of sizes from bicycles, trade bikes (mountain these days?), > motorcycles, cars, lorries and tractors and they can be stretched a lot. It's not that big -- perhaps 3cm diameter at most. I would think some suitable tube could be found. The other possibility is to use one of the 2 pack 'rubbers' made by e.g. Devcon. Make a mould, centre the inner part of the roller in it, and pour in the 'rubber'. Let it set overnight and hope :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 16:55:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:55:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456B6310.6000906@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 27, 6 04:13:36 pm Message-ID: > Ooh - you don't see many Atoms using the expansion bus for System cards (with > the exception of the Disc Pack). I think one of my other Atoms has one of the lab I/O cards mounted inside, connected to the system bus. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 17:00:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:00:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456B64DB.90704@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 27, 6 04:21:15 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > >> European machines go for? Heck which are they? All I > > > > Well, Some of the more interesting UK machines are : > > And the Whitechapel, I'd say - OK, so it's just a Unix workstation, but there > weren't many people around at the time prepared to commit themselves to the > 32000 line of CPUs. The later Whitechapel Hitec series used MIPS R2000 CPUs IIRC. Odd machines. Theres' a motherboard with the PC/AT form factor, but the CPU isn't on it. It actually contains serial, SCSI, ST412, floppy, keyboard, etc interfaces. There are 8 expansion slots. 3 are 16 bit ISA, the other 5 are DIN 41612 connectors. One takes the CPU board (which also has MMU and some more serial ports), another takes the video board, the remaing 3 take RAM cards. I have one complete machine, not in an original case, but in a standard PC/AT tower case. And quite a few spare boards in various states of complete-ness. Oh and a word of warning for the 32016-based MG1 Whitechapels. The mainboard has 512K RAM, but the boot ROM needs 1.5M to boot. If it doesn't find it, it flashes out a 'multiple bit DRAM error' on the diagnostic LED. You then go insane trying to find a non-existant fault in the memory, memory control, or arbitration circuitry. Please don't ask how I found this out... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 17:02:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:02:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 27, 6 05:32:10 pm Message-ID: > *Anything* Evans & Sutherland is damn rare and you have some > pre-workstation era equipment which is exceedingly rare. Oddly nobody's picked up on the I2S image processor/display systems yet. Are they really that common? I thpught they were almost like rocking horse manure... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 17:11:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:11:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sanyo lat-200a In-Reply-To: <000501c71298$1f41e690$0401a8c0@wardriver> from "Stijn Bagin" at Nov 28, 6 03:51:36 am Message-ID: > > Hmm, there are indeed some smaller components I hadn't noticed that = > might indeed be memory, Some smaller unbranded 2x HC240's, 4x HC74's and = > some rather large ones : Malaysia 8835/ HM6264ALFP-12T. =20 6264s are 8K byte static ROM chips. > > I'm still not sure I'm following, whilst you are probably giving me = > usefull information. My knowledge on the pure details of a harddisk are = > fairly limited. I know how it mechanically works, but how the data is = > carried is another thing. What does this mean: "From the OMTI chips = > you mention, I am now almost certain that's a raw interface, possibly = > simular to ST412." OK, let me explain a bit more. A hard disk simply records a bitstream on a track of the platter. It has no conscept of sectors, checksums, things like that. But the host ssytem deals with bytes/words. It expects to be able to read a particular secotor from the current track, it expects to be told if there's a checksum error. I call the first the 'raw' data, the second the 'formatted' data. At some point there must be a conversion from one to the other. With some drive units (e.g. IDE, SCSI), the conversion is done in circuitry that's normally considered to be part of the drive, the interface is a formatted one. Withe others, for example the ST412 ('MFM' in PC-speak) drives, the interface is a raw one, what you get on the interface connector is a cleaned up version of the bitstream from the head. The conversion to formatted data is done on the controller card. Now, the OMTI chips you've mentioned would seem to be the chips to convert between a raw and a formatted interface. For that reason, I suspect the 50 pin bus is a formatted interface (to the host computer), the 26 pin connector is a raw inteface carrying the cleaned up version of the bitstream from the head. Unfortunately, while these OMTI chips were commonly used on SCSI-ST412 interfaces, there's nothing in the _chips_ that implies a SCSI interface. That was handled by the microcontroller program (you have a Z8 on your board I believe). So there's no reason to assume that the formatted interface (the 50 pin connector) is SCSI. And while there's probably an ST412-like data stream on the 26 pin connector, there's no reason to assume the control lines (e.g. to position the heads, select a particular head, etc) are identical to ST412 signals. Again, that side of things is handled by the microcontroller. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 17:45:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:45:32 -0800 Subject: Intel Magnetics BPK-72 Bubble memory Prototype Kit In-Reply-To: <03389BC1-D81D-4B07-98FD-93E2373EA9EC@neurotica.com> References: <001b01c7132d$66c65b00$7a01a8c0@LEOS>, <03389BC1-D81D-4B07-98FD-93E2373EA9EC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <456C599C.11376.572CD4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 17:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140058022601 > > Oh if only he'd ship to the US!! I auctioned a BPK-72A off a few weeks back and ended up sending it to Canada, though two French bidders were runners-up. (It fetched $60.00). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 17:49:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:49:48 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: , <1164738959.22341.14.camel@linux.site>, Message-ID: <456C5A9C.26468.576B2D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 17:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've no idea why Wordstar gets badmouthed so often. It's a fine > word processor, especially for its era. Not too long ago, I brought up the Word for DOS demo diskette that was packed in with PC magazine. What hit me right away was how much of the 80x25 mono display was taken up by "fluff" and how small the text window actually was compared to WordStar 4. Somewhere, I've got a copy of WS 2000 that works with the downloadable fonts in a Hercules Graphics Plus card. Even on a lowly XT, it was pretty snappy. Cheers, Chuck From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Nov 28 17:52:43 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:52:43 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest Message-ID: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi folks, A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. If you're interested, contact Norm "at" ibm1130.org or contact me directly, and we'll put you in touch with the seller. We'd really like to see this system stay together and go to a person who's interested in keeping it intact! We'd much rather see it go as a whole package to a classiccmper than get pieced out on ebay. Regards Brian Knittel and Norm Aleks From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 28 17:56:43 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:56:43 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <91684.99588.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <91684.99588.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456CCCBB.5070609@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>On 28 Nov 2006 at 12:35, Chris M wrote: >> >> >>>ok, enough of you dudes seem to be familiar with >> >>the >> >>>stuff, how does it compare with Brasso? >> >>One of my hobbies is repairing and rebuilding brass >>musical wind >>instruments (trumpets, horns, tubas, etc.)--and the >>mention of Brasso >>causes me to cringe. Basically it's an abrasive in >>a mixture of >>stoddard solvent and ammonia. The problem is that >>the abrasive is >>far to aggressive. Sometimes I'll get old horns >>that have had the >>engraving almost obliterated by overuse of Brasso. >> >>Consider that the gold plating on an edge connector >>is only a few >>microns thick and that gold is much softer than >>brass. >> >>On old PCBs, I've had pretty good success with just >>a toothbrush and >>a mild detergent in warm water. Follow up with a >>deionized water >>rinse followed by ethyl alcohol as a drier. In >>severe cases, a >>buffing compound, such as rouge, applied with a >>cotton buff on a >>Dremel should clean things right up. > > > OT - would the effect of Brasso differ much from > "jeweler's rouge", which I'm told is essentially rust > and a lite oil? I've never actually seen it, not sure > if it came as a solid or liquid (or is even still > available). Sears sells these sticks nowadays, one of > them being basically rust colored, so I guess that's > basically it in solid form. Uhhh, no, not really. It is ferrous (ferric?) oxide, but it is to rust what a cut diamond is to diamod-based industrial abrasive. Jeweler's rouge is the final buff of high-finish jewelry. It takes a lot of buffing to remove a noticeable amount of metal with it, even using a bench buffer. What you can do with Brasso in minutes would take weeks with rouge, using the same type of applicator. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 28 18:04:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:04:05 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:02:24 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > *Anything* Evans & Sutherland is damn rare and you have some > > pre-workstation era equipment which is exceedingly rare. > > Oddly nobody's picked up on the I2S image processor/display systems yet. > Are they really that common? I thpught they were almost like rocking > horse manure... I confess ignorance as to what the I2S image process/display system even *is*. I'm largely ignorant of the graphics hardware marketplace before 1988. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 18:04:07 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:04:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <456C58C6.20336.56F8918@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061129000408.9769.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually a wax and ferric oxide. Very gentle--I can > polish an > instrument having only 6-9 microns of silver plate > to a brilliant > mirror-like shine using a 3 hp buffer using 8" > cotton wheels charged > with rouge without damaging the instrument. Abuse, > of course, is > possible with any power treatment. Ok, rust and wax then :D. So do you buy jeweler's rouge these days, in anything other then the sticks you get at Sears (a whole package of sticks that come in different colors, presumably for difference degrees of courseness). > But stay away from Brasso. If you must, use > something like > Simichrome or Hagerty's Silver polish. All leave > behind a bit of wax > as a tarnish retardant. I've used it to clean some heavily oxidized .064" brass sheets. Worked fine for that application. I don't see how anything that leaves behind a residue can be a good thing though, especially with electronics (and with machine tools too, where dimensions are critical). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 28 18:10:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:10:00 -0600 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems References: <536092.58272.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com><456C9B5D.2080005@jetnet.ab.ca><008001c7132f$01994100$6700a8c0@BILLING> <456CA564.6040706@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <008401c7134a$b7633bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Barry wrote.... > What do you use in conjunction with the Magic Eraser to accomplish this? > Alcohol, Mean Green or something along those lines? Nothing other than wetting the magic eraser with water as per the instructions. Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 28 18:12:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:12:18 -0500 Subject: sanyo lat-200a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C44B0CB-2F45-4774-8A26-98C6A5946958@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2006, at 6:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmm, there are indeed some smaller components I hadn't noticed that = >> might indeed be memory, Some smaller unbranded 2x HC240's, 4x >> HC74's and = >> some rather large ones : Malaysia 8835/ HM6264ALFP-12T. =20 > > 6264s are 8K byte static ROM chips. s/ROM/RAM/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Nov 28 18:10:23 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:10:23 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <399607.37709.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128180745.0b5ef140@localhost> The place I used to work got talked into one (for resale, but no one was ever interested in it). I used it because it could read all manner of exotic floppy disks, and I even interfaced an 8" (shugart, I think) to it. Wasn't very hard. I was able to read weird compupro disks with it. Ours had the 68000 (wasn't it a 68010?), a 6502, and the Intel or Zilog chip-- can't recall which. At 12:05 PM 11/28/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--- Jules Richardson >wrote: > > > Chris M wrote: > > > if you all are going to cheat like crazy, then I'm > > > going to submit the Dimension 68000. No it wasn't > > > loaded as stock with FOUR cpu's, but they were > > > "intended" as optional equipment - 68000 running > > CP/M > > > 68K, 8088 for MS-DOS, 6502 for Apple DOS, and a > > Z80 > > > for CP/M. So there. > > > > Actually, I'm not sure if that should count or > > not... it's certainly closer to > > qualifying than something which just happened to > > have CPUs as peripheral > > processors. I suppose it depends on how "optional" > > they were and how much > > additional circuitry was needed to support them. > > Maybe more so then I even thought. If you're not >familiar with it, the Dimension 68000 tried to be all >things to all people. Surely not an unobtainable goal, >there have been numerous add-on cards for other >machines that worked well, but the "emulation" aspects >didn't work out so well (I'm told). It probably took >more resources then they could muster at the time, or >just more time. Mindcraft I think was the company >IIRC. I have one reserved for me by someone, but I'm >trying to raise the capitol to secure several more >boxes (albeit not working) to distribute to the masses >when the time is right. Truly a unique uh platform as >far as I can tell. > Was curious if there was anything like it across the >pond. Or did I ask this already... > The 68k portion worked quite well though. If you >google it you'll find there was a few at work at JPL >back in the day. > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Yahoo! Music Unlimited >Access over 1 million songs. >http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited Yesterday is history. tomorrow; a mystery, and today is a gift, that's why we call it the present. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 28 18:18:03 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:18:03 -0600 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems References: <456C3EB0.6990.509A2D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <91684.99588.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <456C58C6.20336.56F8918@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c7134b$d789dd80$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Chuck wrote.... > But stay away from Brasso. If you must, use something like > Simichrome or Hagerty's Silver polish. All leave behind a bit of wax > as a tarnish retardant. Wax on the connectors. Hummmm Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 28 18:22:11 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:22:11 -0600 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems References: <20061128225700.57339.qmail@web81315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c7134c$6c66b0e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill wrote.... > ProGold is great stuff, but it is intended for sealing > and lubrication only. For deoxidation, Caig makes > another product, DeOxIt. I'll have to check, but as I recall the directions for ProGold say you can use just ProGold to deoxidize as well, and if the oxidation is bad - to use deoxit first, then progold. With fantastic products like the above available, I just can't imagine even discussing things like brasso and jewlers rouge! Jay From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 18:33:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:33:30 -0800 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061129000408.9769.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <456C58C6.20336.56F8918@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061129000408.9769.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C64DA.7197.59EB66C@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 16:04, Chris M wrote: > Ok, rust and wax then :D. So do you buy jeweler's > rouge these days, in anything other then the sticks > you get at Sears (a whole package of sticks that come > in different colors, presumably for difference degrees > of courseness). I buy it in cartons of 21 2 lb. bars. Mine is manufactured by Divine Bros. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 18:34:27 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:34:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <00bf01c7134b$d789dd80$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061129003427.59142.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > Chuck wrote.... > > But stay away from Brasso. If you must, use > something like > > Simichrome or Hagerty's Silver polish. All leave > behind a bit of wax > > as a tarnish retardant. > > Wax on the connectors. Hummmm Presumably the left over residues could be removed easily I guess. Alcohol, or the slightest bit of paint thinner? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Tue Nov 28 18:39:08 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:39:08 -0500 Subject: Disk image conversions? Message-ID: <003b01c7134e$c96206d0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Here's an interesting one. I have several disk images for the Tandy 2000 that had been made with TeleDisk. One of the images is bad for some reason (must be truncated; won't get past track 30; complains that target disk drive is not ready when it reaches T30). The original disk is not available. I've done the basic troubleshooting on the drive and media (other images made with same new floppy diskette and drive work fine; swapped drive and media) to eliminate them from the failure tree. Even though TeleDisk seems to write to track 30 just fine, the disk is unusable. This is odd because it's an MS-DOS format (although 80T 9S) so all of the directory and media parameter info is at the front of the disk rather than the back. Is there anything I can do with this partial disk image to retrieve at least some of the info? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 28 18:40:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:40:58 -0800 Subject: NEC uPD 780c-1 In-Reply-To: <408009.39270.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <408009.39270.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456C669A.18403.5A58DF6@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2006 at 15:27, Chris M wrote: > Can this chip, said to be compatible with the Z80, be > replaced by one altogether? IIRC, many manufacturers used them interchangeably with the "genuine" Z80. The datasheet says "software- and pin-compatible": http://www.datasheets.org.uk/datasheet.php?article=3445183 Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 28 18:37:25 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:37:25 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <01C71324.BF6583C0@mse-d03> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:35:42 -0600 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries --------------------Original Message: >Ahh, I was originally asking after systems with different CPUs though, not >several of the same type - mainly to rule out lots of posts about parallel >machines (as I was curious as to how many manufacturers managed to make a go >of selling 'average' systems with a mixture of CPU types - parallel machines >tend to be in a different league) --------- Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O card, and you've got another Z80... mike From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Nov 28 18:41:34 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:41:34 -0600 Subject: differential SCSI conversion Message-ID: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> I've been poking around inside my HP9000/C180 machine (1x SE Fast-10 narrow SCSI, 1x FWD integrated, 1x FWD GSC card). I am aware that this machine is still slightly stretching ontopic, but the diff part is definitely ontopic. Currently, it has 1x4GB and 1x2GB, which leaves little free space with a very off-topic OS (HP-UX 11.11) diff SCSI drives, while technically superior to SE, are difficult to find, so I'm looking at alternates. Looking at the machine, the SCSI busses appear to have a standard SCSI chip feeding into differential drivers. Is it possible to gracefully remove the diff drivers and convert it to single-ended operation? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 18:50:26 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:50:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk image conversions? In-Reply-To: <003b01c7134e$c96206d0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <688387.1591.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Rich, If you're referring to disk 2 of the BIOS sources, have you looked at it in a text editor? I know there's lots of funky formatting codes, but that looks like that's all you're going to get (and the code is plainly visible). I don't know what happened when I imaged that disk, it did report a bad sector (as did disk 4) but it kept going FWIR. Apparently there's more to that disk then the image contained, or at least should be - I don't know what happened. I did find that box of disks over the holiday, so I'll try to redo it (w/ID even). I can't really say when I'll have the oppurtunity though. I don't know anything about the Catweasel thing, but if you think that can do a better job of creating a proper image (if there's any chance) I'll send you the disks. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 28 18:53:08 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:53:08 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) Message-ID: <000401c71350$bd03e910$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, This isn't official yet, but we're aiming for Saturday, May 19 next year. We might add Sunday, May 20 as well, but that won't be decided anytime soon. Location is the same as East 3.0 was this year: the InfoAge Science Center (infoage.org) in Wall Township, N.J. We considered having the East event on the same weekend as VCF Europa, and having inter-VCF things such as IRC terminals and videocasts, but unfortunately it didn't work out because of some other BIG news that I can't announce right now but might within a couple of weeks. :-) - Evan From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Nov 28 18:50:14 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:50:14 -0600 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <002f01c71333$41bc2e60$4104010a@uatempname> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128184905.0d340f38@localhost> At 09:22 PM 11/28/2006 +0000, you wrote: >Al Kossow wrote: > > Decomposing rubber components has been a problem for digital tape > > transports for at least a decade or more now. I know of no vendor who > > supplies replacements for the dozens of different QIC transports, for > > example. > >My experience of DAT drives is that they would eat tape for fun even >when new ... one or two units seem fine but I had half a dozen >replaced when I was at DEC. > >DLT always had the decency to fail in non-destructive ways, the tape >always >survived intact. You haven't lost the leader inside the drive? Or inside the cartridge? I have. It's delicate work, rethreading a DLT-VI. [Philosophy] People are flexible enough to make any theory look good for a while. --Jaron Lanier, in his Karma Vertigo essay --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 18:55:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:55:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk image conversions? In-Reply-To: <003b01c7134e$c96206d0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <737002.25501.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> and I know it's going to sound strange, but I have had pretty good luck making images with WinImage. If I'm not bonkers, I do also seem to recall not only making an image of my original T2K quad DOS floppies with it, but being able to simply read it in a W2K box. If you have a unit with 2K or 98, I suggest playing around with some of those disks (presumably you've imaged whatever you have already), or disks created from images. I can't remember whether I "zapped" them first or not. Something tells me it didn't make a difference. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 18:57:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:57:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC uPD 780c-1 In-Reply-To: <456C669A.18403.5A58DF6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <845619.27745.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Nov 2006 at 15:27, Chris M wrote: > > > Can this chip, said to be compatible with the Z80, > be > > replaced by one altogether? > > IIRC, many manufacturers used them interchangeably > with the "genuine" > Z80. The datasheet says "software- and > pin-compatible": Hmm yeah that would prove useful. And yes it does say that indeed. Many thanks. Onto the NEC 8001A. Yeehaw. Anyone own one by the way (the computer). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 28 18:58:29 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:58:29 -0500 Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061129003427.59142.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061129003427.59142.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456CDB35.1090104@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Jay West wrote: >>Chuck wrote.... >> >>>But stay away from Brasso. If you must, use something like >> >>>Simichrome or Hagerty's Silver polish. All leave behind a bit of wax >> >>>as a tarnish retardant. >> >>Wax on the connectors. Hummmm > > > Presumably the left over residues could be removed > easily I guess. Alcohol, or the slightest bit of paint thinner? I'd think the wax residue would serve to retard further corrosion. Unless your connection is terribly loose, it shouldn't interfere with the circuit at all. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 19:00:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:00:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 28, 6 05:04:05 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > *Anything* Evans & Sutherland is damn rare and you have some > > > pre-workstation era equipment which is exceedingly rare. > > > > Oddly nobody's picked up on the I2S image processor/display systems yet. > > Are they really that common? I thpught they were almost like rocking > > horse manure... > > I confess ignorance as to what the I2S image process/display system > even *is*. I'm largely ignorant of the graphics hardware marketplace > before 1988. Basically, they're TV-scan-rate image displays for minicomputers. I have Unibus interfaces for mine, but the schematics also include diagrams for DG Nova and HP2100 interfaces IIRC. The basic idea is a number of byteplanes, each 512*512*8 bits. The outputs of these go to (programmable) look-up tables, then to a full adder, then to more look-up tables, then to DACs (either 3 * 8 bit or 3 * 10 bit). By careful programming of the lookup tables you can obvious add the values in the byteplanes, subtract them (program a 2's complement table), multiply (program log/antilog tables) and so on. And there's more. Firstly there's a hardware histogram board which produces a historgram of the pixel values in a byteplane (I think, maybe the outputs of the adder), and lets the host computer read it out. There's the 'transform ALU' which treats planes 0 and 1 as a 16 bit accumulator, and lets you combine that with any other plane using any function a 74181 ALU chip can perform. And there's a cursor, moveable by a graphics tablet or trackball. And overlay bitplanes for text/labels. I own 3 of these machines. The 70/E is in 3 rack crates (processor and 2 memory crates). It uses 4K bit DRAMs (over 3000 of them), and has a total of 6 planes. The 74/F4 uses 16Kbit DRAMs, has 4 planes, and fits into 1 crate. The Model 75 is a later unit, using 64K DRAMs, and has some other features like a small (empty) Multibus cage for a local CPU, and a 'transform sequener' -- a 2910 sequener chip + control store RAM which lets toy user-microprogram the thing to do automatic sequences of operations. Needless to say this is not a simple machine. It's many boards of fairly simple ICs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 17:47:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:47:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: NEC uPD 780c-1 In-Reply-To: <408009.39270.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 28, 6 03:27:38 pm Message-ID: > > Can this chip, said to be compatible with the Z80, be > replaced by one altogether? I beelive so. When I built a homebrew computer years ago, I used am NEC D780C. It was supplied when I ordered a Z80, I never found any incompatibilities. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 19:07:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:07:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061129000408.9769.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 28, 6 04:04:07 pm Message-ID: > Ok, rust and wax then :D. So do you buy jeweler's > rouge these days, in anything other then the sticks > you get at Sears (a whole package of sticks that come > in different colors, presumably for difference degrees > of courseness). I've never ordered any, but H.S.Walsh (a jewellery/watchmaking equipment supplier) list many grades of rouge, along with other polishing compounds like cerium oxide. -tony From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 28 19:24:24 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:24:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <20061129012424.33127.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well, I guess I'm interested. It sounds like a big chore in getting it though, but I'm sure it would be worth it. Bob Brian Knittel wrote: Hi folks, A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. If you're interested, contact Norm "at" ibm1130.org or contact me directly, and we'll put you in touch with the seller. We'd really like to see this system stay together and go to a person who's interested in keeping it intact! We'd much rather see it go as a whole package to a classiccmper than get pieced out on ebay. Regards Brian Knittel and Norm Aleks From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 28 19:34:01 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:34:01 +0000 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061128184905.0d340f38@localhost> Message-ID: On 29/11/06 00:50, "Tom Peters" wrote: > > You haven't lost the leader inside the drive? Or inside the cartridge? I > have. It's delicate work, rethreading a DLT-VI. Nah, I do it at least once a month :) (then again I *am* a field engineer so what do I expect) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 20:00:28 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:00:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Test - do not read Message-ID: <20061129020028.63939.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ha ha, I knew you you'd read it! Actually, I'm testing Yahoo's delivery. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 28 20:11:33 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:11:33 -0800 Subject: differential SCSI conversion In-Reply-To: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> References: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 6:41 PM -0600 11/28/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >Currently, it has 1x4GB and 1x2GB, which leaves little free space >with a very off-topic OS (HP-UX 11.11) >diff SCSI drives, while technically superior to SE, are difficult to >find, so I'm looking at alternates. Have you thought about getting converter boards to convert SE drives to HVD? Yes, they made such things. Are HVD drives really that hard to get? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 15:41:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:41:40 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456CAD14.2020602@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Ooh - you don't see many Atoms using the expansion bus for System cards (with >> the exception of the Disc Pack). > > I think one of my other Atoms has one of the lab I/O cards mounted > inside, connected to the system bus. Didn't come from Cambridge uni originally, did it? :-) I had two from there on the bench just before I left for the US; both with lab interface boards mounted in the bottom of the case. It's the first time I'd seen that actually done, although I believe that somewhere Acorn do mention as a feature the possibility of stuffing a System board in there... (Annoyingly both machines originally had Econet boards fitted apparently, but they'd long since vanished from inside...) cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 15:43:50 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:43:50 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <399607.37709.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <399607.37709.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456CAD96.8010602@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: [Dimension 68000] > Was curious if there was anything like it across the > pond. Or did I ask this already... Closest thing is probably the humble BBC micro, to be honest. Acorn designed them from the outset to allow add-on processors to be used (externally on the model B, and either externally or internally with the later Master series), and for the second processor to be able to take over control of the host BBC. They always had plans for Z80 and additional 6502 boards for the machines; I believe that the 32016 and 80186 boards weren't envisaged until later on. Several manufacturers (including Acorn) made coprocessor boards for the machines (notional OS in brackets, although you were free to run what you wanted really): Acorn Z80 (CP/M) Acorn 6502 (application-level code) Acorn 65C102 (application-level code) Acorn 32016 (Master internal, PanOS) Acorn 32016 (1MB variant, PanOS) Acorn 32016 (4MB variant, PanOS) Acorn 80186 (DOS) Acorn 80286 (DOS) Acorn ARM1 (Brazil monitor only) Acorn A500 (Arthur. Not to be confused with the A500 distinct machine) Casper 68000 (FLEX / program development) Cumana 68008 (OS-9) PEDL Z80 (unknown) Torch Z80 (CP/N) Torch 8086 (DOS) Torch 68000 / Z80 combo (UNIX and CP/N) Two versions of the Torch 68k board existed - the later one was faster and with more on-board memory. Two versions of their Z80-only board existed too; one had a local serial interface. People have privately homebrewed other CPUs for the system (6509, 6809, ARM7 and PDP-11 spring to mind). However, whether all this 'counts' or not is debatable; Acorn didn't (sadly) forsee people wanting to have more than one 'secondary' CPU attached at any one time, so the connection between the BBC side and any additional CPU was really point-to-point only rather than a true bus; I think Torch were the only people to offer a setup that contained both 68k and Z80 alongside the BBC's native CPU (I seem to recall that in their case the switch between CPUs is handled by on-board firmware and a bit of voodoo) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 28 15:52:00 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:52:00 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456CAF80.9030007@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > The later Whitechapel Hitec series used MIPS R2000 CPUs IIRC. Hmm, I've never seen a Hitec - just the MG-1 and the CG-200. > I have one complete machine, not in an original case, but in a standard > PC/AT tower case. And quite a few spare boards in various states of > complete-ness. Was the case based on the one used for the 32xxx machines? Or something totally different? (Google is proving no help!) > Oh and a word of warning for the 32016-based MG1 Whitechapels. The > mainboard has 512K RAM, but the boot ROM needs 1.5M to boot. Ha ha - that's interesting. I wonder why they did it that way? (I mean, why put any memory on the mainboard itself if the system's always going to require expansion boards anyway). For some reason the MG-1 always makes me think "poor man's NeXT" :-) cheers J. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Nov 28 21:04:45 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:04:45 -0800 Subject: differential SCSI conversion In-Reply-To: References: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <456CF8CD.80904@msm.umr.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:41 PM -0600 11/28/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > >> Currently, it has 1x4GB and 1x2GB, which leaves little free space >> with a very off-topic OS (HP-UX 11.11) >> diff SCSI drives, while technically superior to SE, are difficult to >> find, so I'm looking at alternates. > > > Have you thought about getting converter boards to convert SE drives > to HVD? Yes, they made such things. Are HVD drives really that hard > to get? > > Zane > > There are converters, of which I have some that will convert SE to HVD, or whatever you want to say. The system won't boot off of anything but the wide HVD in any of those boxes, at least from what my HP buddy says. I have some boxes with 2 or 4gb of memory, that I hope to convert to something else. The converters show up from time to time on ebay, and about any wide to wide will work. HVD never got into the really exotic transfer rates, so pretty dumb SE wide drives will work as far as the HVD is concerned. I don't know if there are any capacity caps, howver, in HPUX that those drives might run afoul of. email me off list if you need more. I have a friend who can help. I also have archived the "final" free distro that HP mailed out, and I want to make it work on as many of my boxes as I can before putting them in storage, and keep one nice machine out for utility work. Jim From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 28 21:18:57 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:18:57 -0600 Subject: differential SCSI conversion In-Reply-To: <456CF8CD.80904@msm.umr.edu> References: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> <456CF8CD.80904@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <456CFC21.8040308@mdrconsult.com> jim stephens wrote: > There are converters, of which I have some that will convert SE to HVD, > or whatever you want to say. The > system won't boot off of anything but the wide HVD in any of those > boxes, at least from what my HP buddy > says. I have some boxes with 2 or 4gb of memory, that I hope to convert > to something else. The converters > show up from time to time on ebay, and about any wide to wide will > work. HVD never got into the really > exotic transfer rates, so pretty dumb SE wide drives will work as far as > the HVD is concerned. I won't claim your buddy is wrong, but I don't think I'd take his word for it. I know my C160 will boot from tape or from CDROM on the SE chain, so I see no reason it wouldn't boot from an SE disk drive. Doc From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 28 21:19:32 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:19:32 -0500 Subject: differential SCSI conversion In-Reply-To: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> References: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <456CFC44.4080508@hawkmountain.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > I've been poking around inside my HP9000/C180 machine (1x SE Fast-10 narrow SCSI, 1x FWD integrated, 1x FWD GSC card). > I am aware that this machine is still slightly stretching ontopic, but the diff part is definitely ontopic. > > Currently, it has 1x4GB and 1x2GB, which leaves little free space with a very off-topic OS (HP-UX 11.11) > diff SCSI drives, while technically superior to SE, are difficult to find, so I'm looking at alternates. > > Looking at the machine, the SCSI busses appear to have a standard SCSI chip feeding into differential > drivers. Is it possible to gracefully remove the diff drivers and convert it to single-ended operation? > > I have 6? (I think it is 6) 2G HP SCSI diff drives (3.5 inch form factor, 1.6" high). I'm not doing anything with them... make an offer (you could offer $0 if you like, but I'd be hard pressed to move to do anything real fast at that price :-) ). -- Curt > > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Nov 28 23:09:02 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:09:02 -0600 Subject: differential SCSI conversion Message-ID: <274004bd180c4c4580e6e902b863200b@valleyimplants.com> Quoth Zane: >Have you thought about getting converter boards to convert SE drives >to HVD? Yes, they made such things. Are HVD drives really that hard >to get? I've got a DEC DWZZB converter, but that requires messing with the StorageWorks shelf and cables to trip over and set up every time I use the machine. I also have a pile of SE drives, including 1 9GB. Diffs seem to be most common in the 4G and under range, and all bays are full. It also seemed like a reasonable way to make an old machine more useable without spending money, pulling a couple of driver chips and putting in jumpers- but perhaps not. Maybe NFS is a better answer. From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 23:53:06 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:53:06 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines In-Reply-To: <200611290215.kAT2EgZ1002106@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611290215.kAT2EgZ1002106@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <456D2042.8010802@yahoo.com> What about an IBM XT with a Big Blue CP/M Card, AND a Trackstar 128 AND a Hydra (MacPlus) board? Wouldn't that give you 4 processors in one machine? One could also run an Amiga with an 8088 Bridge board for dual processors. Or, an Apple IIe, IIgs with a Transwarp card for two processors? Three if it has a Microsoft Softcard... Which makes me think of the Zip Chip and Rocket Chip for the Apple IIe/IIgs series. Did these chips also work in the C64 and other 6502 machines? I remember working with them, but don't have one for either of my IIgs machines... I *DO* have an Orange PC card that will turn a PCI Mac into a PC. But, I don't have the required cable or software for it. So, it's merely a curiosity at this time. That would make a Mac a Dual Processor machine, wouldn't it? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 28 23:55:21 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:55:21 -0800 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456CAD96.8010602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > >Chris M wrote: >[Dimension 68000] >> Was curious if there was anything like it across the >>pond. Or did I ask this already... > >Closest thing is probably the humble BBC micro, to be honest. Acorn >designed them from the outset to allow add-on processors to be used >(externally on the model B, and either externally or internally with the >later Master series), and for the second processor to be able to take over >control of the host BBC. They always had plans for Z80 and additional 6502 >boards for the machines; I believe that the 32016 and 80186 boards weren't >envisaged until later on. > >Several manufacturers (including Acorn) made coprocessor boards for the >machines (notional OS in brackets, although you were free to run what you >wanted really): > >Acorn Z80 (CP/M) >Acorn 6502 (application-level code) >Acorn 65C102 (application-level code) >Acorn 32016 (Master internal, PanOS) >Acorn 32016 (1MB variant, PanOS) >Acorn 32016 (4MB variant, PanOS) >Acorn 80186 (DOS) >Acorn 80286 (DOS) >Acorn ARM1 (Brazil monitor only) >Acorn A500 (Arthur. Not to be confused with the A500 distinct machine) >Casper 68000 (FLEX / program development) >Cumana 68008 (OS-9) >PEDL Z80 (unknown) >Torch Z80 (CP/N) >Torch 8086 (DOS) >Torch 68000 / Z80 combo (UNIX and CP/N) Olivetti M20 8086 (DOS or CP/M86) ( has Z8001 as main processor ) Dwight > >Two versions of the Torch 68k board existed - the later one was faster and >with more on-board memory. Two versions of their Z80-only board existed >too; one had a local serial interface. > >People have privately homebrewed other CPUs for the system (6509, 6809, >ARM7 and PDP-11 spring to mind). > >However, whether all this 'counts' or not is debatable; Acorn didn't >(sadly) forsee people wanting to have more than one 'secondary' CPU >attached at any one time, so the connection between the BBC side and any >additional CPU was really point-to-point only rather than a true bus; I >think Torch were the only people to offer a setup that contained both 68k >and Z80 alongside the BBC's native CPU (I seem to recall that in their case >the switch between CPUs is handled by on-board firmware and a bit of >voodoo) > >cheers > >Jules > _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 29 00:03:30 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:03:30 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines References: <200611290215.kAT2EgZ1002106@dewey.classiccmp.org> <456D2042.8010802@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006001c7137c$19124a50$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Hartman" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:53 AM Subject: Re: multiple cpu machines > I *DO* have an Orange PC card that will turn a PCI Mac into a PC. But, I > don't have the required cable or software for it. So, it's merely a > curiosity at this time. > > That would make a Mac a Dual Processor machine, wouldn't it? I have a Mac IIfx (68030/50) that I can put a 2 Radius Rockets into (both 68040/25) plus 2 Orange Micro Nubus PC Cards (386sx16 and 486/133) so that's 5 processors 4 of which are different, do I win? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Nov 29 00:14:04 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:14:04 -0800 Subject: differential SCSI conversion In-Reply-To: <456CFC21.8040308@mdrconsult.com> References: <17e6d9f06f5540bf8e4bae44f19a1754@valleyimplants.com> <456CF8CD.80904@msm.umr.edu> <456CFC21.8040308@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <456D252C.30205@msm.umr.edu> Doc Shipley wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > > I won't claim your buddy is wrong, but I don't think I'd take his > word for it. I know my C160 will boot from tape or from CDROM on the > SE chain, so I see no reason it wouldn't boot from an SE disk drive. > The install CD drive is on the SE chain, and there can be SE drives for storage on there. You just cant get HPUX to boot from there. I don't have my 180 up, it is still fresh from the swap meet, but we bought 4 others in the C line and none will boot from SE. You can init drives on the SE narrow chain (I forgot to mention that the SE chain on the ones I have seen are narrow) and put data there, in fact several we had had 4 drives, 2 wide diff drives, and two se drives. for the most part we got them because the wide boot drives had died, and 1/2 high wide diff drives are rare. So we ended up with 1 good boot per guy with a system. We also messed with D and H systems, which don't have the problem of only doing diff boot, as they are larger server systems with controller boards, etc. It may be that the smaller C systems have more stuff integrated that they did that. Anyway as I said I have only sampled maybe 6 Cxxx systems, YMMV Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 29 00:13:54 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:13:54 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C836B.4060904@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray Nope, these are only manuals for normal operation. These do not have anything about the access to or the words that are in the underliing Forth. The Forth wasn't really intended to be used by the average user. It was intended as a diagnostic tool or for doing things like changing printer drivers or such. Dwight >From: Ray Arachelian > >Um, is this the droid you're looking for? :-) >http://jef.raskincenter.org/published/cat_ref.html > > >dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Use of cameras is restricted. No flash is allowed and they > > even don't allow a tripod. I'm not sure how I'd hold a > > camera steady enough to take pictures under those conditions. > > The other problem is the number of pages. There are about > > 700-800 pages. I'm just hoping that most of the pages are > > related to teaching Forth and with the glossory being the > > most intersting part. > > Dwight > > > > > > > >> From: Chris M > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > >> Posts" > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: RE: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues > >> galleries > >> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:06:30 -0800 (PST) > >> > >> you can do very well copying manuals and such with a > >> mini digital cam, if its allowed. Id loan you mine if > >> interested, no problem. > >> --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > ---snip--- > >> > > > >> > > > A Cat is a machine I would also like, but I am > >> not > >> > > > going to find one at a > >> > > > price I can afford... > >> > > > >> > > Mine...$20 US. Plus shipping. Hope is not lost... > >> > > > >> > > >> > Hi > >> > I've been having fun hacking my Cat ( Canon ). It > >> was intended > >> > to be only an appliance machine but one can program > >> with it as well. > >> > There is a page on the web that says one can just > >> use the word > >> > "see" to decompile words but he must have had a disk > >> that someone > >> > typed that definition in with. > >> > I've been slowly hacking how to decompile and I've > >> made good > >> > progress. Still, there is so much to dig into. My > >> main reason is > >> > to make a printer driver for my HP 3si. > >> > I was just doing some searches on Jef Raskin and the > >> Cat and found > >> > that the Standford Library has manuals on the Forth > >> in the Cat. > >> > Too bad I can't just photo copy them. I do plan on > >> taking a > >> > day off soon and sit in their viewing room with a > >> lot of note paper. > >> > They also have a lot of information from Jef's > >> records on the Mac > >> > and Apple in general. Jef was an interesting fellow. > >> > The Cat is one of my favorite machines. > >> > Dwight > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> > MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. > >> Get expert picks by style, > >> > age, and price. Try it! > >> > > >> >http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >____________________________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> Do you Yahoo!? > >> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > >> http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces > > friends list. > > >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 29 00:20:47 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:20:47 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C782E.6090800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: >From: jim stephens > >Chris M wrote: > >>you can do very well copying manuals and such with a >>mini digital cam, if its allowed. Id loan you mine if >>interested, no problem. >> >> >> >I keep several of the Canon LIDE models that are usb powered. If you >can walk in with a battery powered laptop somewhere with these, you >can scan with a bed scanner at full resolution. > >I strongly recommend collecting them, as they regularly show up at >thrift shops, and swap meets. they were not very expensive, but >run quite well with only the laptop in site. > >then you just need a spotter :-) > >jim Hi Jim Scanners are out as well. They are quite serious about what one can and can't do. They specify that one can place the book on the table and use their weights to hold it open while taking the picture. One needs to hold the camera by hand and not use flash. One can not stand on anything other than the floor. These are their rules. It is their game. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version.?Join now. http://ideas.live.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 29 00:50:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:50:42 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:00:53 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Needless to say this is not a simple machine. It's many boards of fairly > simple ICs. Sounds pretty sweet though! Put me in your will? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jrr at flippers.com Tue Nov 28 16:52:18 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:52:18 -0800 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <456CB2EA.9080807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <456CB2EA.9080807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 3:06 PM -0700 11/28/06, woodelf wrote: >John Robertson wrote: > >>Keep spares in tightly sealed plastic bags - in our "Time Travel >>Warehouse" parts department (a huge parts supply from an arcade >>distributor that was closed and stored from 1982) we found that >>drive rollers, etc that were sealed in small plastic bags are STILL >>flexible after being tucked away for 25+ years! > >Better check for lost children too...Their quarters may have run out >by now! :) >Did that include pinball games too? Yes there were NOS pinball games still packed in their factory boxes. I post on the newsgroup rec.games.pinball about them... John :-#)# flippers.com From mike at ambientdesign.com Tue Nov 28 19:16:39 2006 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:16:39 +1300 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries References: <01C71324.BF6583C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> From: "M H Stein" Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries > >Ahh, I was originally asking after systems with different CPUs though, not > >several of the same type - mainly to rule out lots of posts about parallel > >machines (as I was curious as to how many manufacturers managed to make a go > >of selling 'average' systems with a mixture of CPU types - parallel machines > >tend to be in a different league) > Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O > card, and you've got another Z80... How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. If I remember rightly, the Z80 handled the startup procedure, handing off to the 68000 when things seemed to be under control. After that point, I think it was still available for parallel tasks, and was often used for sound processing. Its main purpose seemed to be to maintain backwards compatability with the prior model, the Master System. So maybe that's not exactly the sort of example that was expected, but I think it's a good one nonetheless! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 28 19:48:41 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:48:41 -0500 Subject: NEC uPD 780c-1 Message-ID: <0J9G00C2PYCAJ115@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: NEC uPD 780c-1 > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:47:26 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> Can this chip, said to be compatible with the Z80, be >> replaced by one altogether? > >I beelive so. When I built a homebrew computer years ago, I used >am NEC D780C. It was supplied when I ordered a Z80, I never found any >incompatibilities. > >-tony Guarenteed to be fully compatable. Allison From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Nov 29 01:32:49 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:32:49 -0800 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <456CB2EA.9080807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <456D37A1.9070808@msm.umr.edu> John Robertson wrote: >> Keep spares in tightly sealed plastic bags - in our "Time Travel >> Warehouse" parts department (a huge parts supply from an arcade >> distributor that was closed and stored from 1982) we found that drive >> rollers, etc that were sealed in small plastic bags are STILL >> flexible after being tucked away for 25+ years! > I bought a set of mil spec test leads that were sealed in 1984, fluke with all the extras. I was most impressed by the fact that the rubber bands were still pliable and not decomposed after 22 years. The material was a metalized looking paper that required scissors to open. I guess you don't have to unseal test leads while you are under fire w/o tools, but some things that may be packed in the same material be inconvenient w/o a way to open it. I guess you can always figure a soldier will have a knife handy though. I own a Documation 200 with goo for rollers if this discussion leads to a source of rollers to fix it. I have an M-1000 that I have not fired up till I can figure out whether the rollers are good. Since it was in service and not stored up to 12 months ago, I have higher hopes for it however. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 29 01:40:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:40:36 -0800 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> References: <01C71324.BF6583C0@mse-d03>, <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <456CC8F4.1024.725B770@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2006 at 14:16, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. If I > remember rightly, the Z80 handled the startup procedure, handing off to the > 68000 when things seemed to be under control. After that point, I think it > was still available for parallel tasks, and was often used for sound > processing. Its main purpose seemed to be to maintain backwards > compatability with the prior model, the Master System. TRS-80 model 16. Like a Model 2, but with a 68K installed in addition. The Z80 still does the I/O and boots CP/M 2.2, then one boots CP/M 68K. ...but that's only 2 CPUs, albeit different and both used in their own right for user tasks. Bill Godbout marketed a couple of dual Intel CPU boards as well as boards for various other processors (68K, etc.) in his Compupro S-100 line. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 29 02:19:05 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:19:05 -0500 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf RM400-10 Message-ID: <456D4279.3030300@mdrconsult.com> I have one. I'd like to find hardware docs for it. SINIX/Reliant UNIX install media would be heavenly. Doc From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 04:32:49 2006 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:32:49 +0000 Subject: Good home required for a set of HP 9000 model 375 manuals. Message-ID: If anyone would like a full set of HP 9000 manuals please contact this guy off list as they are heading for the skip! He has just posted to the UK a full set of Masscomp manuals so he is very helpful, he is located in the USA in Kingstowne VA. "I just wish I could find as good a home for our set of HP 9000 model 375 manuals. There was a guy in France, but he cannot afford the postage. Now even the janitorial staff won't take them out for me; the pile just sits there with the "Trash--please remove" sign on top. :-(" Please reply off list to: "Newquist, Jonathan D" From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 29 04:55:29 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:55:29 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <200611290750.kAT7ok29007924@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002301c713a4$e29246f0$6601a8c0@barry> Re: "This isn't official yet, but we're aiming for Saturday, May 19 next year. We might add Sunday, May 20 as well" Bad dates. You are selecting the same weekend as the Dayton Hamfest. Not a good move. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 29 02:08:37 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:08:37 +0000 Subject: When 4mm Drives Eat Tapes In-Reply-To: <456D37A1.9070808@msm.umr.edu> References: <20061128164440.GA1971@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <456CB2EA.9080807@jetnet.ab.ca> <456D37A1.9070808@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <456D4005.7040609@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > I own a Documation 200 with goo for rollers if this discussion leads to > a source of rollers to fix it. I have an M-1000 that I have not fired > up till I can figure out whether the rollers are good. Since it was in > service and not stored up to 12 months ago, I have higher hopes for it > however. It does seem to be that not running the machines causes more problems than anything else. I wonder why this should be? As an aside, a brand new set of tyres on a car that's not run over the winter will be all cracked and useless by spring, but an identical set of tyres on a similar car that's used as a "winter hack" will be perfect (if a little worn). Go on, ask me how I know... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 29 02:14:24 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:14:24 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456D4160.5090006@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> In article , >> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >> >>>> *Anything* Evans & Sutherland is damn rare and you have some >>>> pre-workstation era equipment which is exceedingly rare. >>> Oddly nobody's picked up on the I2S image processor/display systems yet. >>> Are they really that common? I thpught they were almost like rocking >>> horse manure... >> I confess ignorance as to what the I2S image process/display system >> even *is*. I'm largely ignorant of the graphics hardware marketplace >> before 1988. > > Basically, they're TV-scan-rate image displays for minicomputers. I have > Unibus interfaces for mine, but the schematics also include diagrams for > DG Nova and HP2100 interfaces IIRC. Is there anything similar with a QBus interface, that is not going to be impossible to find? Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 06:08:31 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:08:31 +1300 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <002301c713a4$e29246f0$6601a8c0@barry> References: <200611290750.kAT7ok29007924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <002301c713a4$e29246f0$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On 11/29/06, Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: "This isn't official yet, but we're aiming for Saturday, May 19 next > year. We might add Sunday, May 20 as well" > > Bad dates. You are selecting the same weekend as the Dayton Hamfest. Not a > good move. You beat me to the comment - I know _I_ will be at Dayton next time (since I missed it in 2006). I suspect many folks west of Pittsburgh will choose Dayton as well. I don't mind driving (or flying) to NJ for a VCFe, but not that weekend (and not Memorial Day weekend either). -ethan From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 06:57:33 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:57:33 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: References: <200611290750.kAT7ok29007924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <002301c713a4$e29246f0$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On 11/29/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 11/29/06, Barry Watzman wrote: > > Re: "This isn't official yet, but we're aiming for Saturday, May 19 next > > year. We might add Sunday, May 20 as well" > > > > Bad dates. You are selecting the same weekend as the Dayton > Hamfest. Not a > > good move. > > You beat me to the comment - I know _I_ will be at Dayton next time > (since I missed it in 2006). I suspect many folks west of Pittsburgh > will choose Dayton as well. I will go to the Dayton hamfest too. I have lived in Ohio for years and I have never been to the Dayton Hamfest. As this could be the last year that it is still in Ohio, I can't miss it. vax, 9000 I don't mind driving (or flying) to NJ for a VCFe, but not that > weekend (and not Memorial Day weekend either). > > -ethan > From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 29 07:05:42 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:05:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: removing green gook Re: Various problems In-Reply-To: <20061129003427.59142.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061129130542.C54E8581D2@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M > > > --- Jay West wrote: > > > Chuck wrote.... > > > But stay away from Brasso. If you must, use > > something like > > > Simichrome or Hagerty's Silver polish. All leave > > behind a bit of wax > > > as a tarnish retardant. > > > > Wax on the connectors. Hummmm > > Presumably the left over residues could be removed > easily I guess. Alcohol, or the slightest bit of paint thinner? > Less is better! Why use something that is going to leave some residue or remove too much and possibly destroy what you are trying to clean? The ProGold and possibly DeOxit sound like the best way to go, plus they are *made* for this job! Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 29 07:13:07 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:13:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061129131307.7FE09585D5@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by dwight elvey > > > Hi Jim > Scanners are out as well. They are quite serious about what one > can and can't do. They specify that one can place the book on > the table and use their weights to hold it open while taking the > picture. One needs to hold the camera by hand and not use > flash. One can not stand on anything other than the floor. > These are their rules. It is their game. > Dwight > Isn't there a type of support available that you hold against yourself so that the cammer uses you for support? That way it would at the least put shakey hands out of the picture.. ;) Cheers, Bryan From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 07:48:49 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:48:49 +0000 Subject: Hey, a new Altair kit ?? In-Reply-To: <005a01c70c99$6a730180$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: <001701c70c4c$9219ca40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <005a01c70c99$6a730180$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640611290548x7893f42ci5b2d71ddb1632a90@mail.gmail.com> I was quite interested in this, but I can't afford these prices. The first kit went for $1775. Item no. 250054310073. Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 03:11:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:11:15 -0600 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456D4EB3.7000106@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <4564AEE4.1040709 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> For some documents there are very few surviving copies, and it would seem >> sensible to preserve those ones now in a form that was as close as reasonably >> possible to the original - colour scans where colour exists in the document >> (or the paper is non-white or the text non-black I suppose), greyscale for >> text rather than bi-level, sufficient resolution for photos and diagrams etc. > > I scan this way -- I use color or grayscale where necessary and use > bi-level on text only B&W pages. bi-level also works for diagrams > that consist only of line art without fine detail. It's OK if you have top-quality documentation. But lots of computer docs out there are old, faded, dirty, creased, well-thumbed etc. and unless someone's prepared to visually check every scanned page, there's a chance that the bi-level algorithm in use will corrupt the data and it'll go unnoticed. If using greyscale then such artifacts can be dealt with at a later date (i.e. at OCR time) rather than at scan time. Of course, OCR is by its nature slow as the data has to be messed with at input anyway and checked upon output, so some extra tweaking there isn't so bad - but it's useful if the initial scan process can be as quick as possible (it's time-consuming enough as it is!) I suppose it's one of those situations where you end up throwing away information no matter what (after all, any scan is essentially a digital representation of analogue data), but there's a danger of throwing away too much data - and for rare docs you might only get the chance to scan them once. For rare items I'd rather have maximum quality "just in case", even if it does mean more storage space. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 29 08:21:35 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:21:35 -0500 Subject: NEC uPD 780c-1 In-Reply-To: <408009.39270.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <408009.39270.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2006, at 6:27 PM, Chris M wrote: > Can this chip, said to be compatible with the Z80, be > replaced by one altogether? Yep, it's a Z80. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 29 08:22:02 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:22:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <20061129142202.4576F587AA@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Mike van Bokhoven > > From: "M H Stein" > Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries > > >Ahh, I was originally asking after systems with different CPUs though, > not > > >several of the same type - mainly to rule out lots of posts about > parallel > > >machines (as I was curious as to how many manufacturers managed to make a > go > > >of selling 'average' systems with a mixture of CPU types - parallel > machines > > >tend to be in a different league) > > Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O > > card, and you've got another Z80... > > How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. If I > remember rightly, the Z80 handled the startup procedure, handing off to the > 68000 when things seemed to be under control. After that point, I think it > was still available for parallel tasks, and was often used for sound > processing. Its main purpose seemed to be to maintain backwards > compatability with the prior model, the Master System. > Speaking of game consoles, there are also quite a few arcade boards that use multiple CPUs. Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 29 08:26:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:26:13 -0500 Subject: Intel Magnetics BPK-72 Bubble memory Prototype Kit In-Reply-To: <456C599C.11376.572CD4C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <001b01c7132d$66c65b00$7a01a8c0@LEOS>, <03389BC1-D81D-4B07-98FD-93E2373EA9EC@neurotica.com> <456C599C.11376.572CD4C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <353072F1-0657-4CDF-A9F7-AB2817708E48@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2006, at 6:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140058022601 >> >> Oh if only he'd ship to the US!! > > I auctioned a BPK-72A off a few weeks back and ended up sending it to > Canada, though two French bidders were runners-up. (It fetched > $60.00). *sniffle* *sob* -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 03:34:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:34:47 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> References: <01C71324.BF6583C0@mse-d03> <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <456D5437.5000403@yahoo.co.uk> Mike van Bokhoven wrote: >> Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O >> card, and you've got another Z80... > > How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. That's only two, though :) I'm mainly curious as to which vendors managed to produce and market a system with more than two out of the box (rather than relying on add-on boards from third parties, or even optional extras from the manufacturer). I don't think there could have been many. cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 08:58:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:58:18 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456D5437.5000403@yahoo.co.uk> References: <01C71324.BF6583C0@mse-d03> <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> <456D5437.5000403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456DA00A.707@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Mike van Bokhoven wrote: >>> Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O >>> card, and you've got another Z80... >> >> How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. > > That's only two, though :) I'm mainly curious as to which vendors > managed to produce and market a system with more than two out of the box > (rather than relying on add-on boards from third parties, or even > optional extras from the manufacturer). I don't think there could have > been many. The IBM IS/390 came with three by default. A PC processor running OS/2, a mainframe processor running a mainframe OS (commonly VM or VSE) and a channel processor with an i960. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 29 09:09:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:09:20 -0500 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A9D0CE3-D158-4AE7-8CE9-8785E4A48425@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2006, at 8:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I confess ignorance as to what the I2S image process/display system >> even *is*. I'm largely ignorant of the graphics hardware marketplace >> before 1988. > > Basically, they're TV-scan-rate image displays for minicomputers. I > have > Unibus interfaces for mine, but the schematics also include > diagrams for > DG Nova and HP2100 interfaces IIRC. > > The basic idea is a number of byteplanes, each 512*512*8 bits. The > outputs of these go to (programmable) look-up tables, then to a full > adder, then to more look-up tables, then to DACs (either 3 * 8 bit > or 3 * > 10 bit). By careful programming of the lookup tables you can > obvious add > the values in the byteplanes, subtract them (program a 2's complement > table), multiply (program log/antilog tables) and so on. > > And there's more. Firstly there's a hardware histogram board which > produces a historgram of the pixel values in a byteplane (I think, > maybe > the outputs of the adder), and lets the host computer read it out. > There's the 'transform ALU' which treats planes 0 and 1 as a 16 bit > accumulator, and lets you combine that with any other plane using any > function a 74181 ALU chip can perform. And there's a cursor, > moveable by > a graphics tablet or trackball. And overlay bitplanes for text/labels. > > I own 3 of these machines. The 70/E is in 3 rack crates (processor > and 2 > memory crates). It uses 4K bit DRAMs (over 3000 of them), and has a > total > of 6 planes. The 74/F4 uses 16Kbit DRAMs, has 4 planes, and fits > into 1 > crate. The Model 75 is a later unit, using 64K DRAMs, and has some > other > features like a small (empty) Multibus cage for a local CPU, and a > 'transform sequener' -- a 2910 sequener chip + control store RAM which > lets toy user-microprogram the thing to do automatic sequences of > operations. Oh MY. That sounds like a WHOLE LOT of fun! I'd try to talk you out of one of those, but I fear the result would be my having even less of a social life than I have now! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 04:09:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:09:02 -0600 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? Message-ID: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk> Has anyone here built a gadget to take a UK PAL RF signal as input and output a US NTSC RF signal (or output something else like composite, which can be converted fairly easily)? I suspect that a few of the US crowd own UK machines and may have needed to do this... I'm thinking that the quickest way might be to homebrew something using a scrap PC with a UK-spec TV capture card and some sort of video display card that'll output either composite or to a US TV, but even then I suspect that there are a few gotchas lurking! cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Nov 29 09:46:38 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:46:38 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: References: <200611290750.kAT7ok29007924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <002301c713a4$e29246f0$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <456DAB5E.7010703@atarimuseum.com> Why not the end of July or beginning of August, those are usually good times as most people will have gone away from vacations early in July for the 4th weekend and most people plan their summer blow-up vacation at the end of August through Labor Day to wrap up summer. May is tough, kids still in school, preparing for graduations and such, so many who have kids/families don't always get to actually enjoy our weekends as they are already booked for family/catching up from the week, so mid-summer please.... Curt 9000 VAX wrote: > On 11/29/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On 11/29/06, Barry Watzman wrote: >> > Re: "This isn't official yet, but we're aiming for Saturday, May 19 >> next >> > year. We might add Sunday, May 20 as well" >> > >> > Bad dates. You are selecting the same weekend as the Dayton >> Hamfest. Not a >> > good move. >> >> You beat me to the comment - I know _I_ will be at Dayton next time >> (since I missed it in 2006). I suspect many folks west of Pittsburgh >> will choose Dayton as well. > > > I will go to the Dayton hamfest too. I have lived in Ohio for years and I > have never been to the Dayton Hamfest. As this could be the last year > that > it is still in Ohio, I can't miss it. > > vax, 9000 > > I don't mind driving (or flying) to NJ for a VCFe, but not that >> weekend (and not Memorial Day weekend either). >> >> -ethan >> > From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Wed Nov 29 10:13:25 2006 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:13:25 +0000 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <20061129142202.4576F587AA@mail.wordstock.com> References: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> <20061129142202.4576F587AA@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20061129161324.GA26713@discordance.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 09:22:02AM -0500, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Speaking of game consoles, there are also quite a few arcade boards > that use multiple CPUs. > As far as games consoles with multiple CPUs the Sega Saturn has quite a few - 2xHitachi SH2, 1xHitachi SH1 (CD controller), 1x68000 (sound controller), and a couple of DSPs (no idea how accessible to the developer these are) - this ended up in the arcades as the Sega ST-V board. -- From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 29 10:31:44 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:31:44 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <456DAB5E.7010703@atarimuseum.com> References: <200611290750.kAT7ok29007924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <456DAB5E.7010703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200611291131.44464.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 29 November 2006 10:46, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > Why not the end of July or beginning of August, those are usually good > times as most people will have gone away from vacations early in July > for the 4th weekend and most people plan their summer blow-up vacation > at the end of August through Labor Day to wrap up summer. Because that's when VCF/MW generally is, and I'm sure you don't want to miss that. ;) Pat > 9000 VAX wrote: > > On 11/29/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 11/29/06, Barry Watzman wrote: > >> > Re: "This isn't official yet, but we're aiming for Saturday, May > >> > 19 > >> > >> next > >> > >> > year. We might add Sunday, May 20 as well" > >> > > >> > Bad dates. You are selecting the same weekend as the Dayton > >> > >> Hamfest. Not a > >> > >> > good move. > >> > >> You beat me to the comment - I know _I_ will be at Dayton next time > >> (since I missed it in 2006). I suspect many folks west of > >> Pittsburgh will choose Dayton as well. > > > > I will go to the Dayton hamfest too. I have lived in Ohio for years > > and I have never been to the Dayton Hamfest. As this could be the > > last year that > > it is still in Ohio, I can't miss it. > > > > vax, 9000 > > > > I don't mind driving (or flying) to NJ for a VCFe, but not that > > > >> weekend (and not Memorial Day weekend either). > >> > >> -ethan -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Nov 29 10:35:58 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:35:58 -0500 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0ED7@cpexchange.olf.com> Did you try the following website? http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/index.html He has a lot of convertor circuits for TVs, VGA, etc... Cheers, Ram From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 29 10:56:41 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:56:41 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <456DAB5E.7010703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200611291656.kATGumL4005834@keith.ezwind.net> May was a bit early last year how about mid june. Well before the 4th but after school is out. Just a thought Bob Bradlee From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 29 11:21:17 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:21:17 -0700 Subject: Test - do not read In-Reply-To: <20061129020028.63939.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061129020028.63939.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456DC18D.4070807@jetnet.ab.ca> steven stengel wrote: > Ha ha, I knew you you'd read it! > Actually, I'm testing Yahoo's delivery. I use *SPAM* *PORN* for that! I have learned by now never to trust the subject line! ... back now to brasso and tubas :) From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Nov 29 08:26:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <456D4EB3.7000106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456D4EB3.7000106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456D98A3.3030000@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose it's one of those situations where you end up throwing away > information no matter what (after all, any scan is essentially a digital > representation of analogue data), but there's a danger of throwing away > too much data - and for rare docs you might only get the chance to scan > them once. For rare items I'd rather have maximum quality "just in > case", even if it does mean more storage space. Exactly. Storage is incredibly cheap these days. It's easy to throw disk space at a problem. If you had to fit all the scans onto RL02 packs, I'd see your problem... Gordon From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Nov 29 12:43:46 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:43:46 -0000 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Jules Richardson" > > I'm thinking that the quickest way might be to homebrew something using a > scrap PC with a UK-spec TV capture card and some sort of video display card > that'll output either composite or to a US TV, but even then I suspect that > there are a few gotchas lurking! > Jules, have a look at the MYTHTV LINUX package - the addition of a suitable capture card and video out card should do the job. We've got it to do various esoteric television standards, for a bit of a taster of what it can do, have a look here: http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/fothtv.htm Most off the links you'll need are on that page. (shameless plug for a project I'm involved in......) Jim. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 29 13:05:20 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:05:20 +0100 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <200611282144.kASLib3m065124@floodgap.com> References: <200611282144.kASLib3m065124@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <456DD9F0.9060108@bluewin.ch> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > How many of these were made? Do you have a picture? It is the second machine on this site : http://www.raeke-online.de/EDV/br_History.htm I have no idea how many were made, but must seem to have originated from the sell-off Siemens had after PDC went bust. > > Compared to the hernia inducing SX-64 it sounds nicer, though. Was it > in colour? No color flat screens existed then... It was a yellow elektroluminent display. Jos Dreesen From ken at seefried.com Wed Nov 29 13:37:39 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:37:39 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611291800.kATI0XbN017521@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611291800.kATI0XbN017521@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061129193739.23599.qmail@seefried.com> If you can find a Hauppauge 4860, you get an i486 and an i860. Toss in a DAC960E EISA Raid controller and you get an i960. And an NE3200 EISA network card, and get an i80186. Add a National Instruments AT-DSP2200 EISA data acquisition card, and you get an AT&T DSP32C. Add a A Hercules Graphics Station card and get a ti34010. Add an Opus card or two and get more (mc88100? SPARC?). That's 8 processors, 6 of which are directly available for fiddling. I've had, at one time or another, all these cards, but since I never put them together, I guess I don't win. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 29 13:40:25 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:40:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <456DD9F0.9060108@bluewin.ch> from Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel at "Nov 29, 6 08:05:20 pm" Message-ID: <200611291940.kATJePZi055436@floodgap.com> > I have no idea how many were made, but must seem to have originated from > the sell-off Siemens had after PDC went bust. So how often do these show up on eBay? You're right, I want one of these :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told ---- From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 29 13:45:01 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:45:01 -0000 Subject: Intel Magnetics BPK-72 Bubble memory Prototype Kit In-Reply-To: <03389BC1-D81D-4B07-98FD-93E2373EA9EC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <002701c713ee$dd54b9d0$4804010a@uatempname> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:40 PM, Leo Schultz ((Impulse)) wrote: >> This may be of interest: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140058022601 > > Oh if only he'd ship to the US!! Have you asked? I've only ever been told once that someone would not ship (from the US to the UK). I only ever asked for shipping on stuff that was relatively easy to pack (books and such) but this looks like it might fall into that category. Antonio From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 29 13:50:10 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Silent 700 Model 745 schematics In-Reply-To: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: I'm still looking for a set of schematics for a TI Silent 700 Model 745 terminal, or the complete service manual if reasonably priced. Given that the terminal only cost me $10, I'm not really interested in a $30 manual. :-) Thanks for any pointers. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From roosmcd at dds.nl Wed Nov 29 14:02:04 2006 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:02:04 +0100 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf RM400-10 In-Reply-To: <200611291417.kATEH7ho014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611291417.kATEH7ho014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1164830524.456de73c0ce66@webmail.dds.nl> Citeren Doc Shipley : > I have one. I'd like to find hardware docs for it. SINIX/Reliant > UNIX install media would be heavenly. I still have a RM-200c, should start that up sometime :). But I have two sets of installation media, 5.43 and 5.45 IIRC. Please let me know if you haven't been able to find it otherwise and I'll see what I can do. greetings, Michiel From spc at conman.org Wed Nov 29 14:22:08 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:22:08 -0500 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: <456C782E.6090800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20061129202208.GE23083@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: > > Scanners are out as well. They are quite serious about what one > can and can't do. They specify that one can place the book on > the table and use their weights to hold it open while taking the > picture. One needs to hold the camera by hand and not use > flash. One can not stand on anything other than the floor. > These are their rules. It is their game. Very odd they won't allow the use of a tripod (are they worried about someone knocking something over with it?) I wonder if they would allow the use of a monopod? -spc (I can understand the restriction against flash ...) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 29 14:28:35 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:28:35 -0500 Subject: Intel Magnetics BPK-72 Bubble memory Prototype Kit In-Reply-To: <002701c713ee$dd54b9d0$4804010a@uatempname> References: <002701c713ee$dd54b9d0$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <8F1F7D92-2C0B-40F5-817E-6FDABE434F1B@neurotica.com> On Nov 29, 2006, at 2:45 PM, wrote: >>> This may be of interest: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140058022601 >> >> Oh if only he'd ship to the US!! > > Have you asked? I've only ever been told once that someone would > not ship (from the US to the UK). I only ever asked for shipping > on stuff that was relatively easy to pack (books and such) but this > looks like it might fall into that category. Good point. I've just asked the seller...we'll see what he says. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ken at seefried.com Wed Nov 29 14:29:05 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:29:05 -0500 Subject: AT&T 730 MGT graphic terminals In-Reply-To: <200611282159.kASLxeHA094775@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611282159.kASLxeHA094775@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061129202905.25183.qmail@seefried.com> From: Richard > Anyone know anything about these? Google for AT&T 5620 and/or AT&T BLIT. The 730 is a descendant. > Apparently they could be used as X terminals and they are essentially > diskless workstations with a 68000 inside. They can be regular dumb terminals or "layers" terminals, which is a really rather interesting, pre-XTerminal remote windowing system worked on by, among other luminaries, Rob Pike. As I recall, they came out with an X cartridge for the 730 since layers never caught on. I only saw NCR rebadged X Terminals during my time at AT&T, so I assume the X cartridge didn't catch on either, even internally. > Any AT&T 3B2 owners out there have one of these in a working state? Don't think many of them ever made it out of AT&T...at least I've never seen one in the wild. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Nov 29 14:38:30 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:38:30 -0800 Subject: Silent 700 Model 745 schematics In-Reply-To: References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <456DEFC6.2000505@msm.umr.edu> Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm still looking for a set of schematics for a TI Silent 700 Model > 745 terminal, or the complete service manual if reasonably priced. > Given that the terminal only cost me $10, I'm not really interested in > a $30 manual. :-) Thanks for any pointers. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > Mike, If you find even a $30 manual you will be lucky. I had a manual and may hae one for some of the Silent 700's i maintaned at the University of Southwester, La in the 70's.. the bad news is that a lot of the parts are private labeled in them and were not available then other than by cannabilizing other terminals, or by hit and miss guesses from the drawings as to what parts did. TI made them to be servicable by themselves, and used private internal TI numbers that were not publicly cross referenced. So if you got a pile of the 745's you can get a manual and maybe make one work, but fixing one may be a bit of a problem. jim From ken at seefried.com Wed Nov 29 14:44:58 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:44:58 -0500 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <200611282159.kASLxeHA094775@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611282159.kASLxeHA094775@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061129204458.25719.qmail@seefried.com> From: Richard > So I'm guessing that the hardware is pretty much a > straight clone. Apparently not, at least for some of the Eastern Bloc clones; see http://hampage.hu/tpa/e_index.html. For the Hungarian machines, cards were definitely physically different, I'm betting things like power supplies are local creations and anything using LSI (F-11 clones, for example) were undoubtedly somewhat original due to differences in the manufacturing processes the Soviets had access to (and DEC never made anything that looked like a K1801VM1). Very faithful clones as far as the software was concerned, though. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 29 15:29:38 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:29:38 -0000 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456D5437.5000403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <002b01c713fd$7a78f6f0$4804010a@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > Mike van Bokhoven wrote: >>> Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O >>> card, and you've got another Z80... >> >> How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. > > That's only two, though :) I'm mainly curious as to which vendors > managed to produce and market a system with more than two out of the > box (rather than relying on add-on boards from third parties, or even > optional extras from the manufacturer). I don't think there could > have been many. Amstrad produced a 386 PC with a built-in Megadrive. So that's three. Four if you count the keyboard :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 29 15:41:00 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:41:00 -0000 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <456D4EB3.7000106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <002c01c713ff$1105ced0$4804010a@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > It's OK if you have top-quality documentation. But lots of computer > docs out there are old, faded, dirty, creased, well-thumbed etc. and > unless someone's prepared to visually check every scanned page, > there's a chance that the bi-level algorithm in use will corrupt the > data and it'll go unnoticed. Well I do look at each page in the final scan - pretty briefly just to make sure that all the pages are in the correct order. Even so I've never noticed a problem. I've never tried scanning a line-printer listing and most stuff I scan is a reasonable manual, but even on the few scans I've made of photocopies, I've never seen a problem. It would have to be a gross problem to affect legibility of text by a human (almost anything affects OCR :-( ). > I suppose it's one of those situations where you end up throwing away > information no matter what (after all, any scan is essentially a > digital representation of analogue data), but there's a danger of > throwing away too much data - and for rare docs you might only get > the chance to scan them once. For rare items I'd rather have maximum > quality "just in case", even if it does mean more storage space. I scan at 600dpi bi-level G4-encoded and I end up with some manuals in the hundreds of MB. I think at least one of the Digital Semi manuals hits nearly 400MB. If I went to greyscale (8 bits) then some of those manuals would take half a DVD[1] to store. Perhaps a few years from now I'll come back and look for some way of erasing this post ("2GB, that's nothing, I can downlaod that in 10 mins!!") but right now 300MB is manageable (even as a download) whereas 2GB is a stretch. For my first few manuals I did redo pages in greyscale if they had a photo but I stopped because I could not see a difference. But by all means scan in 8-bits, just don't scan text as a JPEG unless the alternative is not scanning at all :-) Antonio [1] Maybe more - I think G4 only works on bi-level, so by using greyscale I think you lose some lossless compression too. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 29 15:53:41 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:53:41 -0500 Subject: AT&T 5620 (was Re: AT&T 730 MGT graphic terminals) In-Reply-To: <20061129202905.25183.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200611282159.kASLxeHA094775@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061129202905.25183.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200611291653.41448.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 29 November 2006 15:29, Ken Seefried wrote: > Google for AT&T 5620 and/or AT&T BLIT. The 730 is a descendant. Speaking of 5620s... I've got a bunch of the terminals, but only one keyboard for the bunch. They're really nice terminals (even if they are unreasonably heavy), and seem to all work. I'd like to get a couple of keyboards for them, if anyone has some to spare... I'd be willing to part with a couple of the 5620's, or trade for something else of interest. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 16:15:14 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:15:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <200611292215.kATMFAKt023826@keith.ezwind.net> --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Amstrad produced a 386 PC with a built-in Megadriv e. > So that's three. > Four if you count the keyboard :-) > > Antonio > They did?! I don't suppose you know of any pics online somewhere? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 29 16:52:10 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:52:10 -0000 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611292215.kATMFAKt023826@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <003101c71409$01e16b80$4804010a@uatempname> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >> >> Amstrad produced a 386 PC with a built-in Megadriv e. So that's >> three. Four if you count the keyboard :-) >> >> Antonio >> > > They did?! I don't suppose you know of any > pics online somewhere? They certainly did, the MegaPC. Here are some pics: http://www.uk.playright.dk/raretitel.php?id=13883 http://www.savagereactor.co.uk/?page=projects/amstrad/default.php http://assembler.roarvgm.com/Amstrad_megadrive_computer_1/Amstrad_megadr ive_3/amstrad_megadrive_3.html http://www.retro-games.co.uk/sega/md/megadrive.htm BTW: I wasn't serious about it counting as a 3 processor machine! I've never seen one in the flesh, although I do remember thinking I'd like to have one when I first heard of it. Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 29 17:10:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:10:40 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:11:15 -0600. <456D4EB3.7000106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456D4EB3.7000106 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > It's OK if you have top-quality documentation. But lots of computer docs out > there are old, faded, dirty, creased, well-thumbed etc. and unless someone's > prepared to visually check every scanned page, there's a chance that the > bi-level algorithm in use will corrupt the data and it'll go unnoticed. I check every scanned page as I scan it. You have to anyway, because if it doesn't scan right you have to rescan it to get it right. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 29 17:13:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:13:07 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:41:00 +0000. <002c01c713ff$1105ced0$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: In article <002c01c713ff$1105ced0$4804010a at uatempname>, writes: > For my first few manuals I did redo pages in greyscale if they > had a photo but I stopped because I could not see a difference. I noticed a difference on the ones I scanned. I just scan /pages/ in grayscale when that page contains a photo. I don't scan the whole manual in grayscale just because there's the occasional photo. How the source material was printed makes a big difference in how you should scan it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:30:29 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:30:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <200611292330.kATNUQeA027230@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Burgess wrote: > On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 09:22:02AM -0500, Bryan Po pe > wrote: > > > > Speaking of game consoles, there are also quite a > few arcade boards > > that use multiple CPUs. > > > > As far as games consoles with multiple CPUs the Se ga > Saturn has quite a few - > 2xHitachi SH2, 1xHitachi SH1 (CD controller), > 1x68000 (sound controller), > and a couple of DSPs (no idea how accessible to th e > developer these are) - > this ended up in the arcades as the Sega ST-V boar d. > SH1 was the CD controller? I thought it handled the sprites? The SH2's handled the polygon output (250,000 each) of 500,000 polygons per second. The board was nicknamed the "Titan" board and was still used well into the late 90's despite being superceded graphically by all of Sega's Model 1 & 2 boards (and Model 3 board in 1998/9). However, due to it's mastery of 2D and 3D it was used on many arcade games (sorry, can't name any now, been too long since I last spoke about this board). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 29 17:32:19 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:32:19 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <002b01c713fd$7a78f6f0$4804010a@uatempname> References: <002b01c713fd$7a78f6f0$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <456E1883.3020403@oldskool.org> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>> How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. There have been many multi-cpu consoles; the Sega Saturn had two Hitachi RISC CPUs for core processing, plus a host of other stuff for CDROM, display, sound... The PlayStation 2 is also dual-CPU. The PlayStation 3 is a Cell monster, 7 cores you can play with, although I think that's been discussed here already by Mr. Brutman. My favorite was the Atari Jaguar, which had no less than: - a 32-bit RISC GPU - a 64-bit RISC "object processor" - a 64-bit RISC blitter - a 64-bit general purpose DSP for audio and other functions - a 68000 for general-purpose helper functions And to shuffle memory around, a 64-bit DRAM controller. The Atari Jaguar *should* have been the most kick-ass console of its generation (the blitter in particular was certainly the most powerful of all the 5th-generation consoles). But it was so complex that nobody could figure out how to program it properly. Coupled with legendary Atari marketing fumbles, it died a quick death before a suitable "killer app" could be developed for it. Most coders unfamiliar with the system would treat the Jaguar as a 68000-based machine with a giant framebuffer, like an Atari ST on steroids. This was clearly not the best use of the machine. One of the more depressing examples of the system is a 3-D racing game with a completely unplayable screen update rate of about 3 frames per second. Not a typo. 3 frames per second. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:13:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:13:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456CAD14.2020602@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 28, 6 03:41:40 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Ooh - you don't see many Atoms using the expansion bus for System cards (with > >> the exception of the Disc Pack). > > > > I think one of my other Atoms has one of the lab I/O cards mounted > > inside, connected to the system bus. > > Didn't come from Cambridge uni originally, did it? :-) I had two from there on No, most of my Atoms, including this one, came from Reading University. I also got the System 4 that was used as the Econet file server. > the bench just before I left for the US; both with lab interface boards > mounted in the bottom of the case. It's the first time I'd seen that actually > done, although I believe that somewhere Acorn do mention as a feature the > possibility of stuffing a System board in there... The bus pinout is identical, all you need is a length of ribbon cable with the right connectors on the end. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:17:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:17:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456CAD96.8010602@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 28, 6 03:43:50 pm Message-ID: > However, whether all this 'counts' or not is debatable; Acorn didn't (sadly) > forsee people wanting to have more than one 'secondary' CPU attached at any > one time, so the connection between the BBC side and any additional CPU was > really point-to-point only rather than a true bus; I think Torch were the only I thought at least one of the Torch second processors, probably the 'Graduate' (8088-based MS-DOS one) connected to the 1MHz bus not to the Tube. IIRC, it made use of a feature of the BBC micro which causes the latter to boot from an area of ROM in the FDxx space if one of the interrupt lines is asserted during/just after a reset. In which case you should eb able to link up a normal Tube-connected second processor too. Writing the necessary software is left as an exercise for the reader ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:28:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:28:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456D4160.5090006@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Nov 29, 6 08:14:24 am Message-ID: [I2S Image processor/display systems] > > Basically, they're TV-scan-rate image displays for minicomputers. I have > > Unibus interfaces for mine, but the schematics also include diagrams for > > DG Nova and HP2100 interfaces IIRC. > > Is there anything similar with a QBus interface, that is not going to be > impossible to find? Pity you added the last clause :-). One of the options I have for mine (but alas my schematics book is too early to cover it) is called a GPIT. It's a 2U rack box that links the I2S host interface to a DR11-W compatible parallel interface. And the previous owner did indeed use it with a DRV11-W Q-bus interface. But I suspect these machines are very hard to find now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:19:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:19:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456CAF80.9030007@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 28, 6 03:52:00 pm Message-ID: [Whitechapel Hitec] > Was the case based on the one used for the 32xxx machines? Or something > totally different? (Google is proving no help!) I have no idea, I've never seen an original case. But the motherboard is PC/AT form factor, with the standard 12 pin PC/AT power connector, 8 expansion connecotors at the normal spacing, a DIN socket for the keyboard where you'd expect it, and so on. My guess is that they used a plain PC/AT case > > > Oh and a word of warning for the 32016-based MG1 Whitechapels. The > > mainboard has 512K RAM, but the boot ROM needs 1.5M to boot. > > Ha ha - that's interesting. I wonder why they did it that way? (I mean, why > put any memory on the mainboard itself if the system's always going to require > expansion boards anyway). Maybe earlier boot ROMs would work with just 512K or something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:31:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:31:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456D5437.5000403@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 29, 6 03:34:47 am Message-ID: > > Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > >> Cromemco DPU? Z80 and 68000 on one S-100 card; add an IOP Serial I/O > >> card, and you've got another Z80... > > > > How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a 68000 and Z80. > > That's only two, though :) I'm mainly curious as to which vendors managed to > produce and market a system with more than two out of the box (rather than > relying on add-on boards from third parties, or even optional extras from the > manufacturer). I don't think there could have been many. A copule that have not been mentioned yet, although relying on optional extras : Xerox Daybreak. It has the bit-slice MESA processor board, an 80188 for I/O, and an optional MS-DOS processor board that I've never seen, but which prexumably contained an 80x86 or 8088 chip. DEC Rainbow. 8088 and Z80 as standard, there's a 7220 graphics processor on the colour card (well, if the Tiger can count that chip :-)) -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:44:38 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:44:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >>> How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a > 68000 and Z80. > > There have been many multi-cpu consoles; the Sega > Saturn had two Hitachi > RISC CPUs for core processing, plus a host of othe r > stuff for CDROM, > display, sound... The PlayStation 2 is also > dual-CPU. The PlayStation 3 > is a Cell monster, 7 cores you can play with, wrong!!! Some places state 9, but the last *official* CPU diagram I saw has 8 cores. One main core (slightly larger than the others) and 7 co-cores. (Does that make sense?) > although I think that's > been discussed here already by Mr. Brutman. > > My favorite was the Atari Jaguar, which had no les s > than: > > - a 32-bit RISC GPU > - a 64-bit RISC "object processor" > - a 64-bit RISC blitter > - a 64-bit general purpose DSP for audio and other > functions > - a 68000 for general-purpose helper functions > > And to shuffle memory around, a 64-bit DRAM > controller. > > The Atari Jaguar *should* have been the most > kick-ass console of its > generation (the blitter in particular was certainl y > the most powerful of > all the 5th-generation consoles). But it was so > complex that nobody > could figure out how to program it properly. > Coupled with legendary > Atari marketing fumbles, it died a quick death > before a suitable "killer > app" could be developed for it. > > Most coders unfamiliar with the system would treat > the Jaguar as a > 68000-based machine with a giant framebuffer, like > an Atari ST on > steroids. This was clearly not the best use of th e > machine. The Atari Jaguar is basically a Super Spectrum (SS). No I'm not kidding (surely someone here can back me up?). There is a page on the web somewhere explaining how the guys that were designing the SS ended up working for Atari. The SS evolved into the Atari Jaguar. Also, with the CD unit fitted into the Jaguar cartridge slot (so it could play Jaguar CD games - of which there must be about 6!) that add's yet another processor or two possibly. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 18:03:13 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:03:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <20061130000313.33012.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran a > 68000 and Z80. If I > remember rightly, the Z80 handled the startup > procedure, handing off to the > 68000 when things seemed to be under control. After > that point, I think it > was still available for parallel tasks, and was > often used for sound > processing. Its main purpose seemed to be to > maintain backwards > compatability with the prior model, the Master > System. I didn't know the Genesis was backwards compatible w/the Master system? Or are we not talking about the stock Genesis. Never played with one, but I want one! Yeah I want it! Gimme gimme. > So maybe that's not exactly the sort of example that > was expected, but I > think it's a good one nonetheless! Bravicimo! Or however you spell it. Excellent in fact. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 18:11:28 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:11:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines In-Reply-To: <006001c7137c$19124a50$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <860700.66710.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a Mac IIfx (68030/50) that I can put a 2 > Radius Rockets into (both > 68040/25) niiice upgrade/s. Who can't love something called the ROCKET! > plus 2 Orange Micro Nubus PC Cards > (386sx16 and 486/133) so that's > 5 processors 4 of which are different, do I win? I have 2 of "those" also. Who made them first, Orange Micro, or AST (or was it even AST at all?). I don't think mine say OM anywhere on them. And actually I'm referring to the original '286 version. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 29 18:16:19 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:16:19 -0600 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf RM400-10 In-Reply-To: <1164830524.456de73c0ce66@webmail.dds.nl> References: <200611291417.kATEH7ho014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1164830524.456de73c0ce66@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: <456E22D3.9030900@mdrconsult.com> roosmcd at dds.nl wrote: > Citeren Doc Shipley : >> I have one. I'd like to find hardware docs for it. SINIX/Reliant >> UNIX install media would be heavenly. > > I still have a RM-200c, should start that up sometime :). But I have two sets > of installation media, 5.43 and 5.45 IIRC. Please let me know if you haven't > been able to find it otherwise and I'll see what I can do. So far, you're the only other person I've found that ever heard of these things. Mine seems to have an intact SINIX install on it, but it looks like I need boot media to get root. I'd also like to know a couple of other things, like what EISA and ISA adapters are supported, how a mouse attaches, since it has a single PS/2 port, and if a CD-ROM is supported, what models work. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Doc From tponsford at rnsmte.com Wed Nov 29 18:26:34 2006 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tponsford) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:26:34 -0700 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <456BEDF7.2746.3CE503D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <456E253A.3040102@rnsmte.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I would be overjoyed to see an Elektronika PDP-11 clone or some such, > but unless you are Hans and have access to boot sales in the former > East Germany, those items just don't appear that often. > > -ethan > > I have a pretty much complete Elektronica-85, which is a clone of the DEC Pro 350. I think the PSU may be bad, but I haven't had really anytime to play with it! I was in contact with someone overseas (Ukraine) who had some schematics for the 85, but I've since lost contact. Side by side with a 350 it's a pretty remarkable copy!. It has two RX33 type H/H floppies, and a Soviet made 10 or 20MB Winchester Disk, aka RD50. Instead of the DEC beige, it has a sort of a silver color I like to refer as sputnik Grey. The workmanship is OK but the materials are far below western standards, the plastic housing is several mm thinner than the American version, causing the machine to actually bend/flex a bit when picking it up or moving it!! Cheers Tom From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 18:27:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:27:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <20061129131307.7FE09585D5@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <270763.38886.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > Isn't there a type of support available that you > hold against > yourself so that the cammer uses you for support? > That way > it would at the least put shakey hands out of the > picture.. ;) probably, but a small desktop tripod type thing would be the way to go. I'm not aware of any such commercial offerings, but my guess is they would be light and very portable (i.e. collapsible). These Aiptek Pencam things are the ticket. They're not available any longer (in this form exactly anyway) but they will produce an image with very readable text. I repeat, the first time I tried it, it worked surprisingly well. There's always the means to touch up and enhance an image afterwards (computers are good at automating certain tasks, aren't they?). I have a website now, but I don't know what in blazes I'm doing. I'll post some examples before too long. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 18:34:55 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <456DD9F0.9060108@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20061130003455.40505.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> is an electroluminescent display essentially a plasma display? IBM made this huge amber color display that was plasma IIRC. And it was essentially a flat panel unit. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 29 19:15:49 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:15:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <387474.73037.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The 1130 is now up on ebay with a $20,000 buy-it-now price. Item number: 200053482851 Nice photos. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 29 19:26:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:26:05 -0800 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <20061130003455.40505.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <456DD9F0.9060108@bluewin.ch>, <20061130003455.40505.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456DC2AD.22979.AF537A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2006 at 16:34, Chris M wrote: > is an electroluminescent display essentially a plasma > display? IBM made this huge amber color display that > was plasma IIRC. And it was essentially a flat panel > unit. No. EL displays use a phosphor embedded in a plastic substrate between two electrodes, one of which is transparent. Excited with an AC voltage, the phosphor will glow. You can sometimes find EL "night lights" that glow a soft green. Power consumption is in the milliwatt range. Cheers, Chuck From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 19:27:29 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:27:29 +0000 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <20061130000313.33012.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <012d01c71354$06f09840$3c00a8c0@fluke> <20061130000313.33012.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640611291727y2bfaf40bs2e41b1393bd62eea@mail.gmail.com> > I didn't know the Genesis was backwards compatible > w/the Master system? Or are we not talking about the > stock Genesis. Never played with one, but I want one! > Yeah I want it! Gimme gimme. > You had to buy an adaptor for the cartridges but it did work. Dan From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Nov 29 19:31:13 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:31:13 -0800 Subject: DECstations and Sun 3's Available Message-ID: <20061130013113.GA18626@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> Hey everyone, I've been in touch with someone on the East Coast (of the U.S.) who has about ten DECstation 3100s, a few DECstation 5000/200s, and some Sun 3/50s and 3/60s available for the cost of shipping. He just doesn't want them to end up in a landfill. I've snagged two DECstation 3100s and two DECstation 5000s, but that's about all I can do right now. If anyone is interested in any of the remaining stuff, please contact me off-list and I will forward your contact information to him. -Seth From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 19:36:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:36:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: DECstations and Sun 3's Available In-Reply-To: <20061130013113.GA18626@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> Message-ID: <20061130013604.64779.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> hey, interested in the Sun 3's. Thank you. Where's he at anyway (thought maybe a pickup was possible. I'm in NJ). --- "Seth J. Morabito" wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I've been in touch with someone on the East Coast > (of the U.S.) who has about > ten DECstation 3100s, a few DECstation 5000/200s, > and some Sun 3/50s and 3/60s > available for the cost of shipping. He just doesn't > want them to end up in a > landfill. > > I've snagged two DECstation 3100s and two DECstation > 5000s, but that's about > all I can do right now. If anyone is interested in > any of the remaining stuff, > please contact me off-list and I will forward your > contact information to him. > > -Seth > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 19:42:40 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:42:40 -0500 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <387474.73037.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <387474.73037.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The 1130 is now up on ebay with a $20,000 buy-it-now price. > Item number: 200053482851 > > Nice photos. Getting that thing out of there will be a horror show. How did they get it down? -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 29 20:25:08 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:25:08 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Help With an Erastz-11 DLL - Found word(s) remove list in the Text body In-Reply-To: <456C3B93.6080101@bellsouth.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061127170204.0d747090@localhost> <456C3B93.6080101@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <456E4104.7010708@compsys.to> >Chris Rodie wrote: > Tom, > > Assembly source tends to contain directives that are assembler > specific. The source could also be invoking macros that are > contained in a specific assembler's libraries. Are there no comments > at the top of the sources that say "assemble with ..."? Unless you > are able/ willing to modify such assembler specific references in the > source for other tools, you need to use the tools that John Wilson > used. So if there are no clues in the sources, ask John. > > In general, good (and free) tools for assembling and linking x86 code > for DOS or Windows include: > > NASM assembler > http://sourceforge.net/projects/nasm > MINGW compiler (for linking Windows dlls and exes) > http://www.mingw.org/ > DJGPP (for linking DOS protected mode programs) > http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/ > > Regards, > C. Rodie > > Tom Peters wrote: > >> At 03:52 PM 11/27/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> Can anyone help me with a simple link to an assembler / linker for a >>> Pentium III / Pentium 4? >>> >>> I am attempting to use the EMEM.DLL (Emulated PDP-11 Memory) >>> under Ersatz-11, but I am basically a dummy when it comes to using >>> X86 code, especially finding a pair of suitable assembler / linker >>> programs. >>> I downloaded the Watfor programs, wasm.exe and wlink.exe, but I am >>> not able to assemble the original file, EMEM.ASM at this point. >>> >>> In case anyone is interested, the EMEM.DLL under E11 provides access >>> to PC RAM via emulated PDP-11 hardware registers. The current version >>> which I have been using allows up to 8 MBytes, but I want to >>> increase that >>> to about 600 MBytes so that I can write a faster sieve program for >>> Prime >>> Numbers which looks like it runs in a PDP-11. If I can get the test >>> version >>> to run fast enough on a Pentium III, I will try it on a Pentium 4 >>> with 4 GBytes >>> of memory and see if it is possible to sieve the primes up to 10**18 >>> (essentially >>> a 64 bit sieve program) in a reasonable time (i.e. less than 1 year!). >> >> >> http://www.grc.com/smgassembly.htm >> >> Contains some asm resources as well as a list 8 or 9 other links at >> the bottom of the page. > Jerome Fine replies: I have contacted John and he mentioned TASM (from Borland). At one point, I probably had that assembler on an AT, but it was so long ago, the AT died and it probably did not support 386 instructions in any case. As far as I understand the code for EMEM.ASM, it is all very simple 386 type instructions without any macros. There are only 271 lines of code in total with over 100 lines of comments and less than 140 lines of actual code - the rest being directives and subroutine entry points. It is a relatively small program when I consider that it can make more than a GigiByte of Pentium memory available addressed by either byte or 16 bit word. Since the EMEM.ASM file is only 7,148 bytes and the EMEM.DLL file is only 1060 bytes, I doubt that John would consider the EMEM concept anything other than a shell for how to write a DLL for E11. But I don't wish to make the file available in a public manner. What I should be able to do is to take advantage of the considerable CPU power of the Pentium 4 while at the same time writing most of the code for the PDP-11. At the same time, I understand it can never execute on a real DEC PDP-11 mostly due to how long it would take to do anything useful if I write PDP-11 code for the inner loops that will done at very high speed on the Pentium 4. What may be able to really speed things up is if I am able to effectively use the 2 MegaByte L2 cache on the newer Pentium 4 CPUs with a 1066 front side bus (whatever that means). While the work space in EMEM memory will likely be bit a bit map of about 404 MegaBytes, the concept I hope to use may be able to split that into portions that fit into the cache. What I don't know is whether the overhead of repeating each inner loop will be worthwhile. There are about 50 million inner loops. Each inner loop must be executed between about 10 times and about 10 million times. (Maybe now you understand why I estimate a year to execute!) However, when the inner loop is executed less than 1000 times (over VERY widely scattered points in that 404 MegaByte bit map or only about twice per portion which fits into the cache), it seems doubtful there would be sufficient improvement. That seems to leave a small fraction of the inner loops (only about 100,000 of them - which end up using most of the total time in any case which is why splitting the work space into portions which temporarily fit into the cache may be so very useful). Can anyone comment on how much of a speed improvement there might be by modifying the code so that data is accessed via cache rather than from memory? I will locate the assemblers that you suggest and try them! THANK YOU!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 29 21:30:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:30:13 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Ooh - you don't see many Atoms using the expansion bus for System cards (with >>>> the exception of the Disc Pack). >>> I think one of my other Atoms has one of the lab I/O cards mounted >>> inside, connected to the system bus. >> Didn't come from Cambridge uni originally, did it? :-) I had two from there on > > No, most of my Atoms, including this one, came from Reading University. I > also got the System 4 that was used as the Econet file server. Interesting - that's basically what happened with the two Atoms I was working on, except that they came with a System 3 rather than a 4 (also missing the Econet board, sadly). The System 3 cleaned up nicely and after replacing around 40% of the ICs due to corrosion (seriously) and fixing umpteen dry joints on the keyboard it was back in good health again - unfortunately I never got the time to work on the Atoms, other than giving them a good spring clean. >> the bench just before I left for the US; both with lab interface boards >> mounted in the bottom of the case. It's the first time I'd seen that actually >> done, although I believe that somewhere Acorn do mention as a feature the >> possibility of stuffing a System board in there... > > The bus pinout is identical, all you need is a length of ribbon cable > with the right connectors on the end. Sure - although a lot of Atoms out there don't seem to have the expansion connector fitted (IIRC there are typically a couple of ICs that they need too). The Atom Disc Pack (as you probably know) was just a drive and a System-era FDC in a single case, plugged into the Atom's expansion port). I merely meant that it was the first time I'd actually come across anyone who'd used a System board (other than a Disc Pack) with the Atom; it doesn't seem like it was a popular thing for people to do at the time. cheers Jules > > -tony > > -- And if eight out of ten cats all prefer whiskas Do the other two prefer Leslie Judd? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 29 22:19:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:19:50 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:30:13 -0600. <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: OK, my rogues gallery list: Minis: PDP-11/03, dual RL01s VAXserver 4000/300, 3 DSSI disks, TK70, CMD SCSI Workstations: (4) Diser 'Eve' (upgraded Lilith) workstations Evans & Sutherland ESV/50, fully loaded SGI Indigo^2 R10000 Max. Impact Sun 3/110 Sun SPARCstation 5 PCs: Commodore CBM 8032 w/8050 disk drive Kaypro 4 Televideo TS-803 CP/M PC (B&W graphics) Peripherals: AT&T Pixel Machine, fully loaded (w/Sun interface) Evans & Sutherland Advanced Rendering System Evans & Sutherland Freedom 1000 graphics accelerator Evans & Sutherland Freedom 3000 graphics accelerator Fujitsu M2444 9-track tape drive HP1351A graphics generator Megatek digitizing tablet Megatek valuator (dials box) (2) Evans & Sutherland remote data concentrators Tektronix video hardcopy Xylogics Annex terminal server Serial terminals: LA-120 printing terminal VT-100 CRT terminal Heath/Zenith Z-19 CRT terminal HP2397A color graphics terminal base HP2621A CRT terminal HP2621P CRT terminal w/thermal printer (2) HP2648A B&W CRT graphics terminal Honeywell VIP7809 CRT terminal w/military shipping carrier IBM 3180 CRT terminal Lear-Siegler ADM-3A CRT terminal (2) Lear-Siegler ADM-5 CRT terminal (2) Megatek Whizzard 1645 CRT graphics terminal, 1 sans monitor Tektronix 4010 storage tube graphics terminal Tektronix 4014 storage tube graphics terminal (3) Tektronix 4105A CRT color graphics terminal (6) Tektronix 9200T CRT color graphics terminal (8) Tektronix 9201T CRT color graphics terminal Televideo 925 CRT terminal (2) Televideo Personal Terminal CRT terminal Teletype Model 43 printing terminal Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 707 printing terminal Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 745 printing terminal Westinghouse W1643 party line CRT terminal X terminals: (4) NCD 16P2 NCD Xplora 401 (2) Tektronix XP217C -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 22:29:24 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries Message-ID: <20061130042924.8279.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> is the Tele TS- the unit with the symbiotic monitor? Theres a cp/m and a DOS version. Im partial to 1 of them. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > OK, my rogues gallery list: > > Minis: > PDP-11/03, dual RL01s > VAXserver 4000/300, 3 DSSI disks, TK70, CMD SCSI > > Workstations: > (4) Diser 'Eve' (upgraded Lilith) workstations > Evans & Sutherland ESV/50, fully loaded > SGI Indigo^2 R10000 Max. Impact > Sun 3/110 > Sun SPARCstation 5 > > PCs: > Commodore CBM 8032 w/8050 disk drive > Kaypro 4 > Televideo TS-803 CP/M PC (B&W graphics) > > Peripherals: > AT&T Pixel Machine, fully loaded (w/Sun interface) > Evans & Sutherland Advanced Rendering System > Evans & Sutherland Freedom 1000 graphics accelerator > Evans & Sutherland Freedom 3000 graphics accelerator > Fujitsu M2444 9-track tape drive > HP1351A graphics generator > Megatek digitizing tablet > Megatek valuator (dials box) > (2) Evans & Sutherland remote data concentrators > Tektronix video hardcopy > Xylogics Annex terminal server > > Serial terminals: > LA-120 printing terminal > VT-100 CRT terminal > Heath/Zenith Z-19 CRT terminal > HP2397A color graphics terminal base > HP2621A CRT terminal > HP2621P CRT terminal w/thermal printer > (2) HP2648A B&W CRT graphics terminal > Honeywell VIP7809 CRT terminal w/military shipping carrier > IBM 3180 CRT terminal > Lear-Siegler ADM-3A CRT terminal > (2) Lear-Siegler ADM-5 CRT terminal > (2) Megatek Whizzard 1645 CRT graphics terminal, 1 sans monitor > Tektronix 4010 storage tube graphics terminal > Tektronix 4014 storage tube graphics terminal > (3) Tektronix 4105A CRT color graphics terminal > (6) Tektronix 9200T CRT color graphics terminal > (8) Tektronix 9201T CRT color graphics terminal > Televideo 925 CRT terminal > (2) Televideo Personal Terminal CRT terminal > Teletype Model 43 printing terminal > Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 707 printing terminal > Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 745 printing terminal > Westinghouse W1643 party line CRT terminal > > X terminals: > (4) NCD 16P2 > NCD Xplora 401 > (2) Tektronix XP217C > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 29 22:50:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:50:11 -0700 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:29:24 -0800. <20061130042924.8279.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061130042924.8279.qmail at web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > is the Tele TS- the unit with the symbiotic monitor? Yes, there's a picture of it here: I picked it up off ebay because it was one of the few CP/M machines with stock graphics. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 23:31:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:31:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: rogues galleries Message-ID: <656099.28025.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> supported by what? Curious if it uses the same 6845 as in the pc version. Not common in the US, but MSX units are all graphical, and likely better supported ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 00:02:51 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:02:51 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <270763.38886.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M > > >--- Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Isn't there a type of support available that you > > hold against > > yourself so that the cammer uses you for support? > > That way > > it would at the least put shakey hands out of the > > picture.. ;) > > probably, but a small desktop tripod type thing would >be the way to go. I'm not aware of any such commercial >offerings, but my guess is they would be light and >very portable (i.e. collapsible). > These Aiptek Pencam things are the ticket. They're >not available any longer (in this form exactly anyway) >but they will produce an image with very readable >text. I repeat, the first time I tried it, it worked >surprisingly well. There's always the means to touch >up and enhance an image afterwards (computers are good >at automating certain tasks, aren't they?). > I have a website now, but I don't know what in blazes >I'm doing. I'll post some examples before too long. > Hi All that is fine except they state "no tripods". They are not specific about which type, just "NO". Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Nov 30 00:08:13 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:08:13 +0100 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <200611291940.kATJePZi055436@floodgap.com> References: <200611291940.kATJePZi055436@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <456E754D.6080700@bluewin.ch> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I have no idea how many were made, but must seem to have originated from >> the sell-off Siemens had after PDC went bust. > > So how often do these show up on eBay? Not often. You will have to look in Belgian and Dutch auction sites. Prices were low, probably because nobody knows this machine. I wonder if this will change..... > You're right, I want one of these :) > I don't. I was impressed with the EL display and not much else. That EL display was the first usable flatscreen I ever saw. The Clipper itself was not ready for production. It should, at the very least, have had a proper mainboard. W.r.t. to EL displays : I never noticed milliwatt power . A somewhat later Sharp unit LJ640U26 ( 640x400)that I measured consumed close to 15 Watts. Jos Dreesen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 00:13:17 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:13:17 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <20061129202208.GE23083@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: >From: Sean Conner > >It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: > > > > Scanners are out as well. They are quite serious about what one > > can and can't do. They specify that one can place the book on > > the table and use their weights to hold it open while taking the > > picture. One needs to hold the camera by hand and not use > > flash. One can not stand on anything other than the floor. > > These are their rules. It is their game. > > Very odd they won't allow the use of a tripod (are they worried about >someone knocking something over with it?) I wonder if they would allow the >use of a monopod? > > -spc (I can understand the restriction against flash ...) > Hi I suspect that they've had troubles in the past. All it takes is one fool to damage a valuable book and they have to restrict others. I'm not going to be looking at things that are of that sort but they have their rules. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 00:14:40 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:14:40 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <200611291656.kATGumL4005834@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <003c01c71446$d1da7650$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I tried to book our venue tonight for June 16-17, but someone noted that it is Fathers Day weekend. Also turns out that another group booked our facility that weekend for an antique car show -- they don't need the buildings but they are using the whole parking lot! So ..... how the weekend of May 12-13 ..... can anyone think of any major conflicts? I wanted to wait longer than two weeks between our event and the April swap meet in Trenton, but there aren't any other weekends left. It is not the usual VCF routine to hash this out on cctalk. Hey, we're accomodating! - Evan PS - everyone who pointed out that the 13th doesn't work better come to our show if we change the date on your behalf...!!!! :-) -----Original Message----- From: Bob [mailto:caveguy at sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) May was a bit early last year how about mid june. Well before the 4th but after school is out. Just a thought Bob Bradlee From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 00:20:09 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:20:09 -0500 Subject: OT: Recent issues of Make Magazine? Message-ID: <003d01c71447$965f25c0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Anybody have recent issues of Make? Somebody told me tonight that I'm quoted, two or three issues ago, but I have no idea what that's about .... So naturally I am feeling curious! Would appreciate if someone could look. Thanks! - Evan (Koblentz) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 30 01:38:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:38:55 -0800 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <456E754D.6080700@bluewin.ch> References: <200611291940.kATJePZi055436@floodgap.com>, <456E754D.6080700@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <456E1A0F.32377.C4A8C15@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2006 at 7:08, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > W.r.t. to EL displays : I never noticed milliwatt power . > A somewhat later Sharp unit LJ640U26 ( 640x400)that I measured consumed > close to 15 Watts. Ah, I was referring to the small (perhaps 2 cm x 3 cm) green EL night lights--the back of one within reach is stamped "0.067 watt". There's not enough light from one to actually illuminate anything, but it does serve to show where the wall is when you're wandering around in the dark... There were high-powered ones proposed for applications such as glowing belts for public safety workers and such, but lifetime is limited because the phosphor tends to slowly "wear out". I remember a text on using EL coupled with CdS photocell material for image storage and intensification--but this was back in the 60's. I don't know if much ever came of it. A couple of years ago, I was talking with a Toshiba VP and was surprised to find that he had never heard of the Toshiba plasma display laptops. Cheers, Chuck From g-wright at att.net Thu Nov 30 01:52:57 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:52:57 +0000 Subject: Need Help With a 11/44 Message-ID: <113020060752.20706.456E8DD900004A45000050E221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> I finally got my 11/44 going and in the process of getting it to boot from the tu58 port. It does boot from the TA80 drives. The switch options of coarse are many so I need to know what its trying to tell me. If I do a " B DD it comes back with "console 177777707 sp 173416" . the Tu58 software does see the machine being turned off or on. I have check the cabling (lines 2 and 3) and most of the switch positions. thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Nov 30 02:24:10 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:24:10 +0100 Subject: Need Help With a 11/44 In-Reply-To: <113020060752.20706.456E8DD900004A45000050E221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488161@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jerry wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of g-wright at att.net > Sent: donderdag 30 november 2006 8:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Need Help With a 11/44 > > I finally got my 11/44 going and in the process of getting > it to boot from the tu58 port. It does boot from the TA80 drives. > > The switch options of coarse are many so I need to know what > its trying to tell me. If I do a " B DD it comes back with > "console 177777707 sp 173416". > the Tu58 software does see the machine being turned off or on. > I have check the cabling (lines 2 and 3) and most of the > switch positions. > > thanks, Jerry > > Jerry Wright > JLC inc Hi Jerry, I downloaded the 11/44 manuals from a bitsaver mirror site to work on my 11/44. In the process, I updated my webpages for the /44 a lot. Of course, nothing beats the manual, but I wrote the switch settings grouped together. The manual goes on describing the next module, and then shows a switch settings table that belongs to a previously discussed module. It was a bit confusing before I noticed that ... Regarding the message ... don't know, I haven't seen that one. It only tell you that the /44 is in console mode, shows the address of the stackpointer (and says so) and then the contents of the SP. Now ..., *when* it prints this message is perhaps described in the maintenance manual. I start guessing now. The contents of the SP seems to be an address in the boot PROM address range for device #3 which should be in socket E50 ... Look at the contents of the start addresses of the boot PROMs to see what's on the UBI (or pull the board and inspect visually). If one of those boot PROMs is for a device that you have (connected) you can boot the /44 also with the simple start command, for example if you have 23-751A9 (RL) in socket E49, load a bootable RL01 or RL02 pack in your drive and hit control-P on the console terminal to get the console prompt (>>>). Then enter "s 17773204" (& carriage return) to boot from DL0: without executing CPU diagnostics. See my UBI page. I can boot my /44 now and it runs fine, but I have not yet ran the XXDP diags for the CPU ... If I stop RT-11, and use the Start command on the >>> prompt to boot RT-11 again, the system hangs. However, if I cycle power (UNLOAD the RL pack of course first!) and LOAD the RL02 pack again, I can boot fine using the Start command ... huh? But, as said, I haven't run XXDP! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Thu Nov 30 04:08:16 2006 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:08:16 +0000 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611292330.kATNUQeA027230@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611292330.kATNUQeA027230@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20061130100815.GA12443@discordance.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 05:30:29PM -0600, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > SH1 was the CD controller? I thought it handled > the sprites? > > The SH2's handled the polygon output (250,000 > each) of 500,000 polygons per second. The SH-1 was definitely in the CD-ROM subsystem - whether it could also be used for other purposes I don't know. As far as the SH-2's being used for polygon output, wasn't that the job of the VDPs (the videochips - again two of them, but both were different, and given different tasks - the VDP1 is the main chip that does the polygons/sprites, and the VDP2 does "backgrounds" and the video output itself ( I think these are like the old SNES Mode 7 type backgrounds)? The SH-2's would obviously have to do the maths though, but I think they were somewhat limited by being on a shared bus so they had to take turns on accessing main memory or the support chips. There are PDFs of the official Saturn developer docs out there - should be easy to find via Google, and they explain stuff somewhat better than me :) > > The board was nicknamed the "Titan" board > and was still used well into the late 90's > despite being superceded graphically by all > of Sega's Model 1 & 2 boards (and Model 3 > board in 1998/9). > However, due to it's mastery of 2D and 3D > it was used on many arcade games (sorry, > can't name any now, been too long since I > last spoke about this board). There's a list on this site : http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=711 - it's also got information on a lot of other arcade boards. From nfk at zjtcm.net Thu Nov 30 00:58:46 2006 From: nfk at zjtcm.net (=?gb2312?B?xN+3qL+s?=) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:58:46 +0800 Subject: IBM PC bios source available Message-ID: <364869927.24393@zjtcm.net> Hi ,would u send me the IBM PC bios source? best regards, NFK From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Nov 30 05:18:28 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:18:28 +0100 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf RM400-10 Message-ID: <20061130111828.252060@gmx.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > roosmcd at dds.nl wrote: > > Citeren Doc Shipley : > >> I have one. I'd like to find hardware docs for it. SINIX/Reliant > >> UNIX install media would be heavenly. > > > > I still have a RM-200c, should start that up sometime :). But I have > > two sets of installation media, 5.43 and 5.45 IIRC. Please let me > > know if you haven't been able to find it otherwise and I'll see what > > I can do. > > So far, you're the only other person I've found that ever heard of > these things. > Mine seems to have an intact SINIX install on it, but it looks like I > need boot media to get root. > I'd also like to know a couple of other things, like what EISA and > ISA adapters are supported, how a mouse attaches, since it has a > single PS/2 port, and if a CD-ROM is supported, what models work. Any > help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. > > Doc Manuals for Siemens RM-Series unix based servers (most even available in English) can be found here: http://manuals.fujitsu-siemens.com/softbooks/unix/us/rmop.htm Had to dig up that resource mere weeks ago because the university collection received a Siemens RM600 E. I'm eager to get some hands-on experience but alas that thing is far back on our priority list... HTH, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Nov 30 06:19:32 2006 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:19:32 -0800 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51BF5137-010F-1000-989E-44996EBE5515-Webmail-10009@mac.com> >> > I am not convinced. A Tiger turned up on E-bay recently, and did not sell >> > for that much money. >> >> WHAT! Nobody told me about that.....bah! *sulks* > >Oh well.... > >> >> I'd love a Tiger, if only to complete my Tangerine collection. The writeup >> it got in Personal Computer News sold it as a fantastic machine with its 3 >> CPUs...... > >It's certainly an interesting design. I'd love to find the disk >controller (or at least a scheamtic of it) for mine -- all the ROM I have >does is ask for a boot disk (presumanly CP/M). > >3 CPUs is a bit of an overstatement. There is a Z80 in there for user >programs. And a 6809 for I/O (!), the former with 64K RAM, the latter >with 8K IIRC. The last 'CPU' is an NEC 7220 graphics chip with 96K video >RAM. 3 bitplanes, there's no text mode IIRC. > >-tony > > I got it.. I was supprised not many bid against me!!!! :-) roger From djg at pdp8.net Thu Nov 30 06:57:00 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:57:00 -0500 Subject: AT&T 5620 (was Re: AT&T 730 MGT graphic terminals) Message-ID: <200611301257.kAUCv0T30655@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >Speaking of 5620s... I've got a bunch of the terminals, but only one >keyboard for the bunch. > I have one terminal missing the red mouse. If anybody has a spare I am looking for one for sale/trade. Couldn't find a good picture, the best is on this page obscured by the hand. http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/departments/sia/video-library/dyndisp85.html From richard.cini at wachovia.com Thu Nov 30 07:25:25 2006 From: richard.cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:25:25 -0500 Subject: Wozniak book signing book report Message-ID: All: For those who might not have been aware, Steve Wozniak was in New York last night for a book signing at a Barnes & Noble. I attended this signing and I thought I'd provide a book report of sorts for those who haven't yet been (the last one was in Philadelphia about a month ago). I arrived not knowing what to expect and there were only about 25 people in the gallery at 5:30 (the presentation began at 7pm). This event was competing with the Christmas tree lighting at Rockefeller Center, so I figured, hey, it shouldn't be too crowded. Yeah, right. While I was waiting, I grabbed a copy of iWoz and began reading. My report on the book itself is at the end. There were about 150 seats and by 7pm, 175 people were there. I'd say about 80/20 male/female ratio, from a 9 year old girl with a cello strapped to her back to about 55. Ethnically, it was a pretty diverse crowd. Steve arrived on-time and after a short intro, began his speech. I don't think he stopped to breathe. He spoke constantly for 45 minutes. In spite of his stated shyness, he was a very gracious and engaging speaker. You can tell that his mind is running far ahead of his mouth. Yet, in his speech, you can hear a boyish quality that conveys such excitement about computers and amazement as how he, as the "other Steve" with the engineering brains, created the first color personal computer that could be connected to the TV, and, by his accounts, lit the rocket on the nascent personal computing industry (I think he actually said something like "how we started the industry"). I bet that if the guy from Barnes & Noble didn't keep him to a clock, he would have told stories until closing at 10pm. I spent only a few minutes with Woz. He signed my Woz book, an original instruction manual from my Apple II (which he pawed over, not having seen one in years), and we talked momentarily about my Altair Emulator project. There were people there who brought old computers for him to sign (which he did). Most people just had their books signed. Now, onto the book itself. While I was waiting for the presentation to start, I began reading around the middle of the book and in an hour and 20 minutes time, read almost 100 pages. The book is an easy read and is in a conversational style that after hearing Woz speak, one can easily see how the book was created...he told the stories and Gina Smith, the co-author, wrote them down, preserving his familiar, conversational style. This isn't fine literature, and Steve readily admitted that he's not much of an author. But, if you think of it more as you and Steve sitting at a bar talking about old times, you will enjoy it. Since I began in the middle at a random spot, I didn't read about Steve's early years. He did allude to his childhood in his presentation, and this is where most people will discover the "I didn't know that." facts about Woz. I picked-up the story around the time of Steve creating the Breakout game for Atari. The back-half of the book is filled with common Woz stories about Breakout, the 500 machine purchase from The Byte Shop, his drive for elegance in design (and reduced parts count), and hacking a Shugart floppy drive to make a very elegant floppy controller system. There were some brief mentions of fights with Jobs, like over the number of slots to put in the Apple ][ and the failure of the Apple ///, but any disagreements with the other Steve were treated gingerly. I'm sure there are kernels of rare or never-heard Woz stories in there, but in the pages I read, I didn't really see any. Rich From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 30 08:11:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:11:20 -0500 Subject: PDC Clipper vs SX-64 (was Re: rogues / Rare european machines) In-Reply-To: <20061130003455.40505.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061130003455.40505.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2006, at 7:34 PM, Chris M wrote: > is an electroluminescent display essentially a plasma > display? IBM made this huge amber color display that > was plasma IIRC. And it was essentially a flat panel > unit. No...EL uses electrons to excite a phosphorescent material, while plasma uses...well, plasma! ;) Similar to the way a neon lamp works. I have one of those displays you're talking about; the 3290. It is gorgeous. I made some progress on getting what I need to make it useful, but then house sale/house purchase stuff started picking up and I haven't been able to make any more progress on it. Soon, I hope. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 30 08:27:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:27:15 -0600 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456EEA43.7050601@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <456D4EB3.7000106 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> It's OK if you have top-quality documentation. But lots of computer docs out >> there are old, faded, dirty, creased, well-thumbed etc. and unless someone's >> prepared to visually check every scanned page, there's a chance that the >> bi-level algorithm in use will corrupt the data and it'll go unnoticed. > > I check every scanned page as I scan it. You have to anyway, because > if it doesn't scan right you have to rescan it to get it right. The main problem I find with that is that it's time-consuming to check every page at the scanned resolution (i.e. 1:1 mapping between on-screen pixels and scanned dots). However at a typical "fit page to window" zoom level it's easy to make sure that the page was scanned straight etc., but easy to miss things which might hinder some future OCR process. No process is going to be perfect, of course, but we are maybe at a point in terms of storage availability and transmission speed that we can handle a quality improvement for the really hard to find stuff. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 30 08:40:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:40:43 -0600 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <456D98A3.3030000@gjcp.net> References: <456D4EB3.7000106@yahoo.co.uk> <456D98A3.3030000@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <456EED6B.8060603@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I suppose it's one of those situations where you end up throwing away >> information no matter what (after all, any scan is essentially a >> digital representation of analogue data), but there's a danger of >> throwing away too much data - and for rare docs you might only get the >> chance to scan them once. For rare items I'd rather have maximum >> quality "just in case", even if it does mean more storage space. > > Exactly. Storage is incredibly cheap these days. It's easy to throw > disk space at a problem. Oh, I don't think it's *that* easy quite yet - think of something like bitsavers if it suddenly needed a 10x increase in storage and bandwidth :-) But I do think it's possible for 'special cases' where there may only be a handful of surviving printed copies left in the world. So far as I'm aware it's not an issue that any of the big institutions are thinking about though as (rightly so) the goal in recent years has just been to preserve the text for human readability rather than addressing quality issues. Better to do something than nothing at all, and all that. Things are probably at a stage now where the recommendations for special cases can be different, though [1]. [1] Docs from the 50s and early 60s are often good candidates - typically they're bound in something other than paper/card, printed on very off-white paper, and by now are getting rather dirty. A typical bi-level scan not only loses the spirit of the original somehow, but introduces major headaches for subsequent OCR (like OCR isn't enough of a headache already!) > If you had to fit all the scans onto RL02 packs, I'd see your problem... :-) What's the transfer rate for a typical RL02 drive? I suspect that just getting the data on and off would be a problem, even if you had enough of them to meet capacity... (there's a fun calculation - what would the power consumption of the bitsavers archive be if it was held on RL02 packs?) cheers Jules From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 09:14:00 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:14:00 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) Message-ID: <200611301514.kAUFELcI071596@keith.ezwind.net> Mothers Day ..... how did I not realize that???? That leaves June 2/3 and 9/10. If we choose 9/10 then we give people a weekend off after Memorial Day. But would there be more conflicts with graduations (on either of the June weekends) than with the Dayton event? I know all about the "you can't please everyone all the time" rule but we're still trying. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 09:16:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:16:14 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:27:15 -0600. <456EEA43.7050601@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456EEA43.7050601 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > [...] it's easy > to make sure that the page was scanned straight etc., but easy to miss things > which might hinder some future OCR process. To be honest, almost every time I have tried to OCR something (even a pristine original), it was simply faster and more accurate to type it in myself. I don't know why but I have been singularly unimpressed with OCR software. Obviously lots of people do OCR, but the amount of rework and editing necessary to get high accuracy is just as much work as typing it in yourself for someone like me that is a fast touch typer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Nov 30 05:39:17 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:39:17 +0000 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <003101c71409$01e16b80$4804010a@uatempname> References: <003101c71409$01e16b80$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <456EC2E5.30703@gjcp.net> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> >>> Amstrad produced a 386 PC with a built-in Megadriv e. So that's >>> three. Four if you count the keyboard :-) >>> >>> Antonio >>> >> They did?! I don't suppose you know of any >> pics online somewhere? > > They certainly did, the MegaPC. > I've never seen one in the flesh, although I do remember > thinking I'd like to have one when I first heard of it. I used to work in a shop in Aberdeen that had one. Never really looked at it that closely, because I was too busy playing with FRACTINT on the brand spanking new Amstrad 2386, with its 386DX-33 processor, 4M of memory, 80M IDE hard disk and 640x480x256 colour graphics. Terribly impressive. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Nov 30 05:47:04 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:47:04 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sure - although a lot of Atoms out there don't seem to have the > expansion connector fitted (IIRC there are typically a couple of ICs > that they need too). The Atom Disc Pack (as you probably know) was just > a drive and a System-era FDC in a single case, plugged into the Atom's > expansion port). I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom, salvaged from the junk pile at my Dad's work over 20 years ago. The bottom of the case is rather scorched where the PSU heatsink has been struggling with all those 2114s! I'm guessing that's why they wanted rid of it - it ran for about 5 minutes then would shut down because the regulators were overheating. I remember him being rather concerned about how hot his bench PSU was getting when running it, and eventually it clicked that if it was pulling down 3.5A from the thing then there was no way two 7805s would ever handle the strain. Then, of course, the unheeded technical manual turned up. I had a quick look, and right in the first few pages it mentions removing the regulators and bypassing them and then putting a *BIG* label on the back saying that it's for 5v now, not 9v... Gordon From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 30 10:12:03 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:12:03 -0500 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200611301612.kAUGCARD075057@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:16:14 -0700, Richard wrote: >.... Obviously lots of people do OCR, but the amount of >rework and editing necessary to get high accuracy is just as much work >as typing it in yourself for someone like me that is a fast touch >typer. For the followers of the Columbus School of Typeing which promots the Discover and Land three finger approach to communicateing using a keyboard, a few trackball or mouse strokes combined with well timed button flicking is easier. I like the idea of the Dragon voice editing, but have not taken the time to master it ...... yet Just an alternate thought Bob Bradlee From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 30 10:13:09 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:13:09 -0600 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf RM400-10 In-Reply-To: <20061130111828.252060@gmx.net> References: <20061130111828.252060@gmx.net> Message-ID: <456F0315.6090605@mdrconsult.com> Arno Kletzander wrote: > > Manuals for Siemens RM-Series unix based servers (most even available in English) can be found here: > > http://manuals.fujitsu-siemens.com/softbooks/unix/us/rmop.htm > > Had to dig up that resource mere weeks ago because the university collection received a Siemens RM600 E. > > I'm eager to get some hands-on experience but alas that thing is far back on our priority list... Thanks, but the Fujitsu-Siemens documentation goes back only as far as the RM400 C line. There's a lot of useful information in those docs, but there are also some fundamental differences between the RM400-10 and the later RM400. The SINIX documentation is going to be very handy, though! Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 30 10:12:59 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:12:59 -0600 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456F030B.4080202@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <456EEA43.7050601 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> [...] it's easy >> to make sure that the page was scanned straight etc., but easy to miss things >> which might hinder some future OCR process. > > To be honest, almost every time I have tried to OCR something (even a > pristine original), it was simply faster and more accurate to type it > in myself. I don't know why but I have been singularly unimpressed > with OCR software. Obviously lots of people do OCR, but the amount of > rework and editing necessary to get high accuracy is just as much work > as typing it in yourself for someone like me that is a fast touch > typer. Oh, I agree. Twenty years down the line I expect it'll be a lot better though, but by then the original paper copies of some of the material out there might be long-gone - hence my concern about improving the quality of some scans. I suppose a vague rule of thumb might be that if it's not readable by a human then it's never going to be readable via OCR :-) Thing is, to maximise chances, every single letter in every single scan would have to be proof-read for legibility - which is obviously unrealistic. Hence my feeling that bi-level just isn't good enough for some docs, because it won't necessarily discriminate between real text and a hair / dirt / pen mark where greyscale *might*. It's not infallible either of course - a blue biro mark might be indistinguishable from the faded text below it after scanning; give it five years and I'll probably be advocating full-colour scans :-) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 30 10:55:15 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:55:15 -0500 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C4E741A-F12C-410C-9493-73B5FD7702D1@neurotica.com> On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Richard wrote: > To be honest, almost every time I have tried to OCR something (even a > pristine original), it was simply faster and more accurate to type it > in myself. I don't know why but I have been singularly unimpressed > with OCR software. Obviously lots of people do OCR, but the amount of > rework and editing necessary to get high accuracy is just as much work > as typing it in yourself for someone like me that is a fast touch > typer. I just did exactly that myself a few weeks ago...I wound up typing in an entire very fuzzy hex dump of a 4KB ROM. You wanna talk about frustrating! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 11:22:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:22:13 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:12:03 -0500. <200611301612.kAUGCARD075057@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200611301612.kAUGCARD075057 at keith.ezwind.net>, "Bob" writes: > For the followers of the Columbus School of Typeing which promots the > Discove r and Land three finger approach to communicateing > using a > keyboard, a few trackball or mouse strokes combined with well timed b > utton flicking is easier. Whatever works for you is a good solution :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 11:25:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:25:13 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:12:59 -0600. <456F030B.4080202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456F030B.4080202 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > To be honest, almost every time I have tried to OCR something (even a > > pristine original), it was simply faster and more accurate to type it > > in myself. [...] > > Oh, I agree. Twenty years down the line I expect it'll be a lot better though Ahem. That's what they said 20 years ago! :-) Yeah, it is better now than it was, but its still pretty frustrating to use, particularly when compared against the hype of the products. I think the worst is when you have an original that is several generations of 1970s or 1980s copier away from the real document. Then there's the aspect of printer output where the character baselines aren't lined up on the printout, like old line printer listings and stuff. > Hence my feeling that bi-level just isn't good enough for some docs, because > it won't necessarily discriminate between real text and a hair / dirt / pen > mark where greyscale *might*. It's not infallible either of course - a blue > biro mark might be indistinguishable from the faded text below it after > scanning; give it five years and I'll probably be advocating full-colour scan s :-) If I was scanning a low quality ancient original, then yeah, I'd probably do grayscale to capture as much detail as possible for my "archive" original and then put out a bi-level PDF for download. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 11:26:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:26:46 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:55:15 -0500. <3C4E741A-F12C-410C-9493-73B5FD7702D1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <3C4E741A-F12C-410C-9493-73B5FD7702D1 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > I just did exactly that myself a few weeks ago...I wound up typing > in an entire very fuzzy hex dump of a 4KB ROM. You wanna talk about > frustrating! Now that gives me an idea -- if you know that the text in question is a HEX dump, then you ought to be able to optimize the OCR by restricting its set of choices. However, I really doubt that OCR of hex dumps is enough of a market to attract the attention of OCR software developers to special case it for us :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 13:03:57 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:03:57 -0500 Subject: New data on the Antikythera device Message-ID: <001401c714b2$49a25ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/11/30/astronomy.calculator.reut/index.htm l From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Nov 30 13:35:58 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:35:58 -0800 Subject: Documentation References: <200611301612.kAUGCARD075057@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000e01c714b6$c6242750$0201a8c0@hal9000> > On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:16:14 -0700, Richard wrote: > > >.... Obviously lots of people do OCR, but the amount of > >rework and editing necessary to get high accuracy is just as much work > >as typing it in yourself for someone like me that is a fast touch > >typer. > > For the followers of the Columbus School of Typeing which promots the Discover and Land three finger approach to communicateing > using a keyboard, a few trackball or mouse strokes combined with well timed button flicking is easier. > > I like the idea of the Dragon voice editing, but have not taken the time to master it ...... yet > > Just an alternate thought > > Bob Bradlee > I dictated / edited a 50 page User's Manual for a Military COMM Unit with excellent results ( 90+ % ) using Dragon. Beats the hell out of Voice Pad and some of the other crap out there. I do miss the days of paying my kids $1 a page for typing though... regards, SAC From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 30 13:29:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:29:30 -0500 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34194389-A522-44CF-BB37-75BC08EBCC32@neurotica.com> On Nov 30, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: >> I just did exactly that myself a few weeks ago...I wound up typing >> in an entire very fuzzy hex dump of a 4KB ROM. You wanna talk about >> frustrating! > > Now that gives me an idea -- if you know that the text in question is > a HEX dump, then you ought to be able to optimize the OCR by > restricting its set of choices. However, I really doubt that OCR of > hex dumps is enough of a market to attract the attention of OCR > software developers to special case it for us :-). Yes, that was exactly my problem. *I* knew the only characters on the page were 0-9 A-F, in pairs, but I had no way to tell the software that. Eventually I said "screw it" and typed it in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 30 13:32:44 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:32:44 -0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> References: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <2721.192.168.0.4.1164915164.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Thu, November 30, 2006 11:47, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Then, of course, the unheeded technical manual turned up. I had a quick > look, and right in the first few pages it mentions removing the > regulators and bypassing them and then putting a *BIG* label on the back > saying that it's for 5v now, not 9v... My first Atom was missing that *BIG* label, but since it's working state was unknown and I didn't have a PSU for it (or a bench one) I took it to the bloke that helped create it - Nick Toop still lives and works in Cambridge. We discovered a big switch underneath the keyboard that shorted out the regulators so it could be run at either 5v or 9v.....it was set for 5v so if I HAD powered it up with an Atom supply I'd probably have toasted some of it. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 14:02:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:02:31 -0700 Subject: New data on the Antikythera device In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:03:57 -0500. <001401c714b2$49a25ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: Cool! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 14:06:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:06:34 -0700 Subject: Suppose I wanted to make a TTL terminal replica kit... Message-ID: How hard would it be? I imagine that finding TTL parts isn't so bad, but what about appropriate era keyboards and CRTs? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 30 14:25:39 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:25:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061130122137.J14801@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > All that is fine except they state "no tripods". They are not > specific about which type, just "NO". > Dwight Howzbout a quadrapod? There are FOUR legs that screw into the front of one of my Leica "macro" attachments Howzbout a simple sturdy cardboard box? Cut out enough of the sides for light, and a hole for the camera to peer through. It is odd that they say "no tripods", NOT "no stands". From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 16:32:38 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:32:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <502105.13914.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > All that is fine except they state "no tripods". > They are not > specific about which type, just "NO". > Dwight Yeah I guess I missed that part. But truthfully with a bit of practice, you could still use a measly 1.2 mpix cam to do the job. IT IS DOABLE TO ALL THE NAYSAYERS. Honestly, I can't see how some sort of support you place against your chest would be against the rules though. It's not really a tripod. You could bring it with you, and if they say no, you can fall back on your sense of aim. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 16:38:17 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:38:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC bios source available In-Reply-To: <364869927.24393@zjtcm.net> Message-ID: <113565.83833.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- ?????? wrote: > Hi ,would u send me the IBM PC bios source? > > best regards, NFK It's available in the technical reference manual. I have the smallish pink version for the XT. I think it's up in Pennsylvania at the moment, and if I swing by there I could retrieve it (next week). I guess I could photograph it for you if I have the time. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 17:19:12 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn Electron on ePay...cheap Message-ID: <20061130231912.56903.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> ends in less then 1 day: http://cgi.ebay.com/Acorn-Electron_W0QQitem Z130051907495QQihZ003QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 17:21:24 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:21:24 -0500 Subject: Still seeing IBM 5140 manual Message-ID: <000301c714d6$41a863e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Anybody? Bueller...? I really need the 5140 instruction manual(s). From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 17:34:16 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:34:16 -0500 Subject: Correction .... still "seeking" IBM 5140 manual In-Reply-To: <000301c714d6$41a863e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000b01c714d8$0cee3e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> In case anyone thought I'm hallucinating. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:21 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Still seeing IBM 5140 manual Anybody? Bueller...? I really need the 5140 instruction manual(s). From jtp at chinalake.com Thu Nov 30 17:38:39 2006 From: jtp at chinalake.com (JTP) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:38:39 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <200611301801.kAUI1EfJ038023@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001501c714d8$a9aedfd0$8c64c80a@prozac> Is not May 12-13 Mother's day (13th) weekend in the US? That might be more dangerous than Father's Day weekend. Cheers, Jim From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 17:56:42 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:56:42 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <001501c714d8$a9aedfd0$8c64c80a@prozac> Message-ID: <000e01c714db$2f5bb0c0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Yeah, I realized that, and sent a follow-up email.... -----Original Message----- From: JTP [mailto:jtp at chinalake.com] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:39 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) Is not May 12-13 Mother's day (13th) weekend in the US? That might be more dangerous than Father's Day weekend. Cheers, Jim From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 30 18:11:29 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 00:11:29 -0000 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <456F030B.4080202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > scanning; give it five years and I'll probably be advocating > full-colour scans :-) The RSX & RT-11 manuals I scanned had various pages with colour - for RSX-11M & RSX-11MPLUS it matters because various sections only apply under certain conditions and colour is used to indicate that. So there's B&W, red text, blue text, pink background, grey background and probably blue background too. I scanned the entire manual in B&W on one scanner and then passed the colour pages through a colour scanner: 600dpi @ 24-bit colour. I know I should be able to get those pages down to a few 100KB each but currently they're all still 24MB or so. I'm guessing a decade before you'll be advocating full colour scans - which is probably how long it will take me to find some way of filtering, compressing and layering the scans to produce something reasonable :-) Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 18:40:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:40:07 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 00:11:29 +0000. <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: In article <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a at uatempname>, writes: > The RSX & RT-11 manuals I scanned had various pages with colour - > for RSX-11M & RSX-11MPLUS it matters because various sections > only apply under certain conditions and colour is used to > indicate that. So there's B&W, red text, blue text, pink > background, grey background and probably blue background too. With a little care, you can capture this accurately and efficiently by quantizing the truecolor image to a carefully designed color palette. Then you can store it as 8-bit per pixel (or eve 4-bit per pixel, depending) and squish it down considerably. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Nov 30 18:43:53 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:43:53 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <001501c714d8$a9aedfd0$8c64c80a@prozac> References: <001501c714d8$a9aedfd0$8c64c80a@prozac> Message-ID: <456F7AC9.3030107@atarimuseum.com> That's why I suggested perhaps Fathers day weekend, then we all have a legitimate excuse to have a day to geek-out ;-) Curt JTP wrote: > Is not May 12-13 Mother's day (13th) weekend in the US? That might be more > dangerous than Father's Day weekend. > > Cheers, Jim > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 30 20:11:03 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:11:03 -0500 Subject: tripods was HP 9000s, Canon Cat, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:32:38 PST." <502105.13914.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200612010211.kB12B4jX003573@mwave.heeltoe.com> Chris M wrote: > >--- dwight elvey wrote: > >> Hi >> All that is fine except they state "no tripods". >> They are not specific about which type, just "NO". >> Dwight heh. I'm reading "The White Mountains" to my daughter right now and the "no tripods" gave me a shock :-) I need to stop reading email in the evenings, but somehow that book seems close to this list, in spirit anyway :-) -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 30 21:53:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:53:41 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> References: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, although I know that there's at least one in the UK) > at my Dad's work over 20 years ago. The bottom of the case is rather > scorched where the PSU heatsink has been struggling with all those > 2114s! I'm guessing that's why they wanted rid of it - it ran for about > 5 minutes then would shut down because the regulators were overheating. > I remember him being rather concerned about how hot his bench PSU was > getting when running it, and eventually it clicked that if it was > pulling down 3.5A from the thing then there was no way two 7805s would > ever handle the strain. You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll handle 2A each - but maybe they weren't around when the Atom was new. Even then, just doubling them up and hoping they'd share the load evenly was always going to be a bit risky. > Then, of course, the unheeded technical manual turned up. I had a quick > look, and right in the first few pages it mentions removing the > regulators and bypassing them and then putting a *BIG* label on the back > saying that it's for 5v now, not 9v... There's a lot of Atoms out there that have had the regulators bypassed, no sticker added, and then subsequently had 9V shoved through them :( cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 30 21:56:59 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:56:59 -0600 Subject: cloning CDs with errors? In-Reply-To: <1164672664.9613.7.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <456B148C.2090906@yahoo.co.uk> <1164672664.9613.7.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <456FA80B.5060108@yahoo.co.uk> David Holland wrote: [archiving copy-protected CDs] > Its all pretty flakey, depends ALOT on the burner, the types of errors, > and the phase of the moon. The utilities are also pretty much Windows > only. > > See http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_protections.shtml for > more than you probably wanted to know. > > Look into products like CloneCD, or Alcohol 120. Many thanks Dave - CloneCD did the job nicely in this particular case. (And I'd never realised there were quite so many ways of crippling a CD!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 30 22:14:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:14:15 -0600 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? In-Reply-To: <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk> <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Beacon wrote: > have a look at the MYTHTV LINUX package - the addition of a suitable capture > card and video out card should do the job. We've got it to do various > esoteric television standards, for a bit of a taster of what it can do, have > a look here: > > http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/fothtv.htm wow - that looks like it'll do the job nicely. I suppose the hardware needed is at the point where it's almost free these days (and certainly cheaper than a proprietary converter). I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? Or do they tend to compromise on the design in order to keep costs down? (My limited experience of TV tuner cards for PCs has been that the output looks awful - but that may just be a result of the output being on a good CRT monitor rather than a TV's CRT) (Hmm, you've got me thinking that the museum probably needs the reverse of what I'm trying to do - something that'll take all sorts of formats as input and output VGA or PAL...) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 30 22:21:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:21:20 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems where hand-disassembly is impractical? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 22:54:50 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:54:50 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC H9275-A Qbus backplanes Message-ID: <624966d60611302054y2efe8ac4v8ee06a2faa583d38@mail.gmail.com> Looking for several backplanes. If you have any you want to sell or trade please contact me off list. Thanks Paul From lee at geekdot.com Thu Nov 30 23:08:35 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 06:08:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: rogues galleries Message-ID: <4716.86.144.143.49.1164949715.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll > handle 2A each uA78S05 as used in the later Vic 20 PSU. http://members.lycos.co.uk/leeedavison/6502/vic20/psufix/index.html Lee. From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Nov 30 23:46:27 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:46:27 -0800 Subject: Recent issues of Make Magazine? References: <003d01c71447$965f25c0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000301c7150c$0bc8ac40$0201a8c0@hal9000> > Anybody have recent issues of Make? Somebody told me tonight that I'm > quoted, two or three issues ago, but I have no idea what that's about .... > So naturally I am feeling curious! Would appreciate if someone could look. > > Thanks! > - Evan (Koblentz) Make - Volume 03 - Retrocomputing (Page 182) Koblentz has even connected his Replica I to an LCD and built it into a custom laptop case. The Apple I Owners Club (applefritter.com/apple1) serves as the ... www.make-digital.com/make/vol03/?pg=186 You have to login to actually view it ( I'm too cheap to pay the extra $$$ so I can login ). I'll try to see if I can find my copy if you are still interested. best regards, steven canning From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 30 23:43:15 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 00:43:15 -0500 Subject: Recent issues of Make Magazine? In-Reply-To: <000301c7150c$0bc8ac40$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <001501c7150b$98ba7ad0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Thanks, Steven. I found the search result today as well. I emailed the editor to see about getting a copy of the issue, but until I hear back, I'd appreciate it if you can look for it as well. -----Original Message----- From: Steven Canning [mailto:cannings at earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Recent issues of Make Magazine? Importance: High > Anybody have recent issues of Make? Somebody told me tonight that I'm > quoted, two or three issues ago, but I have no idea what that's about .... > So naturally I am feeling curious! Would appreciate if someone could look. > > Thanks! > - Evan (Koblentz) Make - Volume 03 - Retrocomputing (Page 182) Koblentz has even connected his Replica I to an LCD and built it into a custom laptop case. The Apple I Owners Club (applefritter.com/apple1) serves as the ... www.make-digital.com/make/vol03/?pg=186 You have to login to actually view it ( I'm too cheap to pay the extra $$$ so I can login ). I'll try to see if I can find my copy if you are still interested. best regards, steven canning From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Nov 30 23:51:29 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 00:51:29 -0500 Subject: Tentative early news of VCF East 4.0 date(s) In-Reply-To: <456F7AC9.3030107@atarimuseum.com> References: <001501c714d8$a9aedfd0$8c64c80a@prozac> <001501c714d8$a9aedfd0$8c64c80a@prozac> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061201003646.03991320@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Curt - Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: >That's why I suggested perhaps Fathers day weekend, then we all have a >legitimate excuse to have a day to geek-out ;-) Yup. VCFEast 2.0 was in mid-July - which just *happens* to be an anniversary of the time of my birth - which is the only reason that "SWMBO" allowed our (and by "our" I mean "me" with her being chauffeured) driving my then brand-new Avalanche to Boston for a long-long weekend. Then of course she subsumed said weekend for herself... (witches & Salem, etc.) but hey - ya gotta stay married somehow, right??? Anywho, I can't afford Dayton this year, and that's one heckuva lot closer than New Joysie... Unless my employment prospects change for the good in short order (Michigan being #1 in unenjoyment rates 4 years in a row & all) I sure as Scheisse can't justify NJ unless something *spectacular* happens at the show (will Jill Hennessy be there??? ;-) ) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From wizard at voyager.net Thu Nov 30 04:05:54 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:05:54 -0500 Subject: DECstations and Sun 3's Available In-Reply-To: <20061130013113.GA18626@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> References: <20061130013113.GA18626@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> Message-ID: <1164881154.6620.2.camel@linux.site> Hello, Seth, You bet! Color me interested. If the e-mail contact is not sufficient, I can be reached at 586-939-5952. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net On Wed, 2006-11-29 at 17:31 -0800, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I've been in touch with someone on the East Coast (of the U.S.) who has about > ten DECstation 3100s, a few DECstation 5000/200s, and some Sun 3/50s and 3/60s > available for the cost of shipping. He just doesn't want them to end up in a > landfill. > > I've snagged two DECstation 3100s and two DECstation 5000s, but that's about > all I can do right now. If anyone is interested in any of the remaining stuff, > please contact me off-list and I will forward your contact information to him. > > -Seth >